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That 's a predicament we find ourselves in often , isn 't it ? We have a laundry list of things to do , but we don 't do them . We find something else to do that is much more trivial . Netflix , for example . ( Or blogging … ) But we still manage to let people know more than once a day that we are " soooo busy . " Sometimes it becomes a competition . " I have three papers and a text this week ! " " Oh yeah ? Well I have FOUR papers and THREE tests this week , plus I have to walk to Canada and back WHILE studying for my THREE tests ! Beat that ! " There 's a kind of badge of honor that comes with being " busy . " It means we 're important . People need us . We have deadlines because we hold important positions . We whisk ourselves away from one thing to another , wearing our " Hello , my name is busy " name tag with pride . I took a class my sophomore year called creativity , innovations , and problem - solving . It 's a requirement for everyone at my school . And you guessed it - creativity was the key talking point . Many people think they 're not creative , but really they 're just not giving themselves enough time to be creative . Some people use the excuse that they " just don 't have time . " You know what my professor said to that ? " When students say they don 't have enough time , I offer to go through their schedules and find time for them . They never take me up on that offer … because they know I 'll find time somewhere . " Take a minute to take inventory of your time . You don 't need to be excessive . Just think through an average day for you . I 'll give you my example . I wake up at 7 : 15am . I hit a button on my coffee maker so it can do its job , and I sit down with breakfast until 8 , when I get ready . During this time , I 'm usually on my phone . I have classes in the morning , then a lunch break at 12 . Sometimes I 'll do homework , other times I 'll be on my phone … again . Then I have class and work until 4 , then about an hour til my evening activities , which will go til either 6 or 9 depending on the day . Then I 'm in bed my 11 . I 'm not going to be the grumpy " get off your dang phone ! " mom - ish person , but - sometimes you gotta get off your dang phone . I think sometimes we feel like we 're busier because when we 're not busy , we 're keeping up with everyone else 's busyness . Then all of the sudden - gasp ! Off to the next thing ! This is America . ( Probably , unless you 're reading this somewhere else . ) Everything is time - based , schedule - based . Our phones ding when we have an appointment . We have color - coded planners . We have to - go food . Because we 're always going . We 're looking ahead on our planners to see what 's coming next . When we 're not actually doing things , we 're looking at what 's coming next . What if you just stopped for a second ? Record - scratch , freeze - frame style ? Since it 's cummings , it 's a little bit hard to interpret and remains somewhat ambiguous . But I think you can get the gist of it . Halt . Stop . Relax . But even his " little man " is stopping and halting breathlessly , as indicated by no punctuation - " halt stop forget relax " like it 's a to - do - list in and of itself . Relaxing isn 't just another thing to check off your to - do list . It 's necessary to your mental and physical survival . And if you do decide to relax , you 're not being lazy . What " important worry " are you carrying around ? Is it really that important ? Can you " halt - stop - relax " for just a moment ? I think you can . Because sometimes we wear our busyness like a badge of honor . Before I get into the actual topic of this post , I 'll begin by saying I wasn 't planning on going to college near my hometown . I 've talked in previous posts about how my college plans changed rapidly ( see post Growing in Struggle . ) I ended up at a small university in a decent - sized metropolitan area near where I grew up . I was born and raised in a very small town with a lot of cows and cornfields . Drive twenty minutes one direction and you 're in the city . Drive twenty minutes the other direction and you 're in the middle of nowhere . The area is a very odd , somewhat jarring hybrid of country , suburban , and metropolitan settings . It 's equal parts quaint and cultural , rural juxtaposed with urban . My hometown is about a half hour from downtown Grand Rapids , Michigan - if you 've never been there , GR is like a very small Chicago . A very , very ( very very ) small Chicago . My friend described it as a " Holiday Inn Express " for hipsters - it 's neither East Coast nor West Coast , but there are definitely strong hipster vibes in the city ( everywhere you turn there 's a farmer 's market - one of the benefits of a metro area surrounded by fields . ) My college is located on the " north end " of town , and I was raised on the " south end . " If you 've lived in a metropolitan area , you 'll understand when I say that " north - enders " and " south - enders " are very different . Same overarching culture , but different subculture . Like I said before , I didn 't plan on going to school in my hometown . I only applied to two colleges because I basically had my mind made up - but then , in true teenage fashion , my mind was changed , and very quickly . As a result , I ended up at this small , private , liberal arts university on the north end of Grand Rapids . It was fairly convenient - I know not everyone grows up in a college town or even a town that has any college at all , which means they have to move away if they want to pursue higher ed . The other college I was considering was two hours away and a true college town ( the college was literally the town . Other than that , there were Amish people and a Burger King . ) Well , Nameless Imaginary Inquisitor , it has been wonderful . I have loved going to a university that is so close to a large metropolitan area where there 's lots to see and do . And it 's been great being close to home ( I mean , free laundry and food , am I right ? ! ) " But Audrey , " you continue , " don 't you feel like you 've missed out by staying close to home ? Aren 't you sheltered now ? Isn 't it just the same as it was when you were growing up ? Are you ever going to have the courage to move away ? " Whoa , now , don 't get ahead of yourself , Imaginary Inquisitor . I 'm not saying that going to school locally is the best idea for everyone , or that it 's perfect , but I am saying that it 's certainly not a bad thing . And here 's why : You 're staying close to your roots . College is going to hit all of your ideals , beliefs , and opinions right between the eyes , no matter where you go . Whether it 's your professor or your roommate , someone is going to disagree with you and possibly shake up some of your predispositions . Sometimes , these things are hard to grapple with . When you 're far from home and where you grew up , you may feel lost , maybe somewhat marooned , like you 're on a ship without a captain . When my beliefs were somewhat shaken in college , my roots helped me shape my own opinion of what was being taught to me in college - I wasn 't allowing myself to be directly spoon - fed information without first approaching it with opinions of other people whom I trusted . Having roots close to you can help with that . You know the area . It 's easy to feel isolated in college because you don 't know anything about the city it 's in . In the case of that college - town school I was talking about , there literally wasn 't anything in the area except farmland . And at a remote college like that , most students are also from out of town so they know as much as you do . Going to a local school I had the benefit of knowing some things about not only Grand Rapids but the surrounding communities . I also found myself learning more about the area than I 'd ever known before ( like the dearth of coffee shops GR has to offer . ) I got more connected with my church , explored new areas , and made connections in the city that I had been totally unaware of up to that point . It 's kind of nice to go into college with some background knowledge of not only the school , but its city . You 'll have a new perspective . Although you 're in the same place , you 'll see it through different eyes . With college comes freedom to be independent and think for yourself in more ways than you ever have . I learned more about my city in college than I ever did growing up near it . I explored more towns in the outlying area than I ever had before as well . In the fall , I explored uptown with my roommates , which was a place I wasn 't too familiar with . I auditioned for shows at the community theatre . I volunteered at an inner city school . Sometimes the best opportunities are right under your nose for eighteen years and you never realize it because you 're too busy grinding through the American school system ( not bitter . ) All of this to say - if you 're searching for colleges right now , don 't rule out the ones that are twenty minutes down the road . It doesn 't mean you have to live with your parents ( unless you want to - I mean , free food . And your pets . ) People might hardcore judge you , but that 's okay . They just don 't understand , because they were taught their whole lives that they have to go far away for college . Or they didn 't have the amazing privilege of growing up in an awesome spot like you did . By audreywierengain College , Desires , Inspiration , OpinionFebruary 20 , 2017February 20 , 20171 , 085 WordsLeave a comment Don 't Feel Bad for Being Booksmart . It is the cry of all products of the American school system , after sitting through seven hours worth of coursework followed by the after - dinner ritual of checking off assignments until who - knows - what hour of the night ( or morning . ) High schoolers , liberal arts college students , human beings who have ever had to sit in a biology class - all of them collectively throw down their Bic or their Ticonderoga and wail : We 've all been there . I 've been there . After getting an algebra question wrong for the umpteenth time in seventh grade , I threw my calculator across the room , breaking my bedroom lamp in the process ( though she be but little , she is fierce . ) Watching the clock strike midnight as I was barely halfway through AP government homework . Dissecting a very sad - looking fetal pig in human biology my sophomore year of college , wondering , why does a communications major have to learn about the inner workings of a farm animal ? The answer is simple and not so simple at the same time . The American school system is flawed . We all know that by now . Some kids learn faster than others , some love every single class and graudate with a 4 . 0 while others scrape by because they don 't see the point . Everyone is tested based on the same things . Every year , high school juniors sit down in a big room and melt their brains over a Scantron sheet to see if they can regurgitate enough information to get into a good college with good scholarship . ( And they say daytime television is mind - numbing ? ! ) So yeah , there 's problems . In school you learn that mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell , but you don 't learn how to change the oil in your car . You learn long division ( ? ! ) but not how to file your taxes . You figure out what y equals but you never really figure out why you need to know that ( see what I did there ? ) The pursuit of knowledge is a noble thing , even if you don 't know exactly why or how you will use it . You may think your schooling has been impractical or mundane , but there was something else at work in the midst of that . School wasn 't designed to teach you how to do taxes or how to fix a car . That 's not the point . My point is this : the purpose of school is to teach you how to learn and understand . Take grades and all that out of it . And if it 's not teaching you how to learn and understand , it should . So don 't feel bad if you like school . That means you like learning . You like understanding things , even if it 's outside of what your main interests are . I 'm not a huge fan of math . However , I do like the simple pleasure of seeing an algebra problem methodically solved by eliminating bits and pieces until you get the answer . Chemistry was never my strong suit , but it taught me how to get permanent marker out of various materials because of the chemical compounds at work . You might be more booksmart instead of street smart . And that 's okay . Don 't let people make you feel bad for not knowing about car insurance or taxes . If you 've got anything between your ears , you know that there 's more to life than taxes , interest rates , oil changes , and dividends . There 's mitochondria and Charles Dickens and algebra and Thoreau and JFK . Albert Einstein ( a shining example of a genius who rose above adversity ) once said , " Any fool can know . The point is to understand . " The end - all and be - all of our lives isn 't to know how to cook a full - course meal or file taxes correctly or change a tire . Our end - all , be - all is to be humans who thirst to learn more , to discover . Discoveries build bridges . They help us understand why some people are booksmart and other people are street smart . They help us understand that mitochondria are the powerhouse of the cell , that it 's possible to solve for y , that we need history or else we 'll repeat the mistakes of the past , that we need each other in order to understand . If we don 't seek to understand these things , we 'll be no better than an unfiled tax form . There have been many times in my life when I 've missed someone . I 'm sure that 's happened to you too - missing a person is not a peculiar thing . Maybe they 've left your city , or just left your life . Or they 've left this life , which is its own kind of missing someone . Whatever it may be , they 're not with you anymore . But they 've left something behind , and that something is usually ( ironically ) Emptiness . Because there 's a hole in your life now , a gap that used to be filled by moments , moments with that person . But now that the person 's gone , you gotta work on filling that gap . I 'm in a period of life right now where I 'm missing someone . I forgot how much it hurts . The last time someone I loved moved away from me , I was in third grade . I remember laying in my mom 's bed crying after I found out my best friend was moving away . I didn 't think it was fair . Why would my best friend leave ? How do people leave people they love ? I did the same thing a few months ago , except I was with a different loved one and we cried together . We sat there and hugged each other and cried for a long time . Because parting is hard . Missing someone is hard . I replay the last time I saw them again and again in my mind , wishing I could have held on to that moment just a little bit longer . And then those memories come , the whispers of the time you spent with that person . You associate things and places with them . I think of my friend every time I see a Pontiac Grand Prix - no joke . Sometimes those memories hit you like a truck . Other times , you wake up with those quiet remembrances in your head . There 's a certain stretch of busy road that I associate with that loved one . It 's weird how those associations start , isn 't it ? We drove through that corridor so many times , after going out to restaurants or watching scary movies , usually accompanied by blaring music . All of those times we drove it , I never thought it would end . I think about it every time I drive down that particular stretch of road . On a bad day , it 'll bring tears to my eyes . On a good day , it 'll make me smile . That 's the thing with missing someone . You never know how it 's going to hit you . You never know how a memory is going to make you feel . I smile when I think about the time the friendly stray cat followed us around my neighborhood . Until I wish we could do it again . Then I start crying . ( I cry easily . ) After I got off a FaceTime conversation with them the other night , I started crying . I started crying because I saw them , but I wasn 't with them . I have it much easier than some people - if you 've lost a loved one , you can 't see them or be with them . Thank goodness for modern technology . There 's a little bit of selfishness with missing someone … maybe more than just a little . You want them to be back with you , for them to stay as they were , locked in your memory . But people change and grow and move . To keep them in one place forever would be selfish . One thing I 've learned from missing people is that people are perpetual , never static . You , as a human being , have the right to change - and move . And leave , if you think it 's necessary . I tried moving away once . But I 'm a homebody . I still live close to my childhood home . I got so devastatingly homesick that I couldn 't function . My loved one just moved back to his original home . I couldn 't imagine doing what he did - moving so far away for such a long time . It takes a brave person to do that . It takes a brave person to leave . And to go back . Change , like a person , is perpetual . There won 't ever be a facet in your life that isn 't changing . And usually , change hurts . In this case , it can cause you to miss someone . Badly . But keep in mind the oft - quoted words of C . S . Lewis : Back to that Person . That person who is not with you anymore . Remember that there are far , far better things ahead than what they left behind . Leaving is a hard decision . But just wait . Watch that Person grow and become something incredible , something they could 've never been if they 'd stayed . Continue to cheer for them , to love them , and miss them . It 's okay to miss them . Because eventually the " missing " part becomes less painful , because you look up from your tears and see not only the person they 've become , but the person you 've become . I consider myself to be a feminine woman . Some people might be turned off my the term " feminine " - what does it even mean ? Isn 't it kind of a ( gasp ) stereotype ? Well , yeah , it is . ( But what adjective isn 't a stereotype ? Think about it . Few adjectives are subjective . Use wisely . ) But before you get mad at me for calling myself " feminine " when " feminine " could mean a lot of different things , I 'll elaborate further . I would classify myself as a low - maintenance girly - girl . ( Labels , am I right ? ) I like lipstick and I 'm really into flowery fragrances , but I don 't take three hours to get ready in the morning and I couldn 't care less what my hair looks like from day to day . So , there you have it . Low - maintenance girly - girl . But feminine all the same . Now , I think it 's kinda rude when people say a woman isn 't very " feminine " or " ladylike . " Maybe she just wasn 't raised that way . There 's definitely a stigma for how women should act ( and also a stigma for how men should act ) . And there are millions of women ( and men ) who don 't fit that stigma ( most of them , actually , unless you 're like John Wayne , who is the man 's man . I don 't know what the female equivalent would be . Something completely unattainable , like Betty Boop . ) I was raised the way most girls in the US are raised . Most of my baby stuff is pink or pastel - colored . I played with dolls , Barbies , princess dress - up clothes . And I loved it . ( Parents , don 't ever think that you 're poisoning your child if you raise them the typical boy / girl way . Seriously . It 's not a mortal sin to dress up your baby girl in a pink onesie . It 's your kid . I loved the way my parents raised me . ) When I reached those good old formative years ( I 'm talking somewhere between 8 - 15 ) , my tastes changed as I was able to make some of my own choices . I was definitely a tomboy . When I was twelve I was obsessed with Robin Hood so I got a bow and arrow . I loved knights and swords and all that stuff . ( Confession : I still do . Lord of the Rings fan for life . ) The more I made my own choices , the more I discovered what kind of person I was . Now , in my twenties , I 'm somewhere in the middle of tomboy and girly - girl . I still love my sweatpants and baggy flannel shirts , but I also like lipstick and shopping at Bath and Body Works ( but only when I have a coupon . ) Before I start talking about feminism , I 'll talk about … feminism ( I promise this post isn 't about feminism . ) The word comes with a lot of weight behind it and a lot of connotations , good and bad . When some people hear that word , they think of the sixties and bra - burning . Some people think of Amy Schumer when they think about feminism . Other people are just really confused when people talk about feminism . What is feminism ? A lot of people define feminism by what it 's not - it 's not about hating men . It 's not about being better than men . It 's not about abortion or birth control . It 's about equality . That 's the political side of feminism . The side of feminism that 's about equal pay for women , contraceptives included in health insurance , and so on . But I also think we 're all very aware of the social side of feminism , one that doesn 't concern itself so much with how women are paid but how they 're treated and how they 're depicted in the media . For example , Ghostbusters ( the new one ) is being held up as one small step for feminism , and a giant leap for women - kind . People are getting mad about it because it 's a team of all women as opposed to the Bill - Murray - helmed original , and other people are getting mad at the people who are mad at the fact that it 's all women . And still other people are mad that people are getting mad over a petty thing like people getting mad over a movie . I mean , people have gotten mad at movies before , right ? Remember Twilight ? ( Okay , maybe it was just me who got mad at that movie . I was mad that it existed . But I think you get my point . ) So what 's the big deal ? Why are people getting mad ? Why are people getting mad at people getting mad ? Well , that 's just a matter of opinion . Everyone has their opinion on feminism , and feminism is such a hot - button issue right now that whenever someone significant talks about it , them talking about it gets talked about . Remember Audrey Hepburn ? ( I know , I 'm biased because we share the same name , but I 'm going to talk about her anyway . ) I consider her a feminist icon . " But , Audrey ! " you may say to me ( Audrey being me , not Hepburn ) . " She was so … girly ! And she was always the romantic interest in every movie ever ! " Have you ever seen Breakfast at Tiffany 's ? No ? Go watch it right now . Watch it for the cat , if anything . That movie could have been written in 2016 and still been relevant . Audrey Hepburn is probably remembered as one of the most feminine women to ever walk the earth . She always looked beautiful , she was extremely thin , and she said things that made you feel good about yourself . She also stepped out of the spotlight to raise her children . And she was also a humanitarian for basically her whole life . I don 't know if she ever even talked about feminism . But she was a woman . An actress , a model , a mother , a humanitarian . " Oh , but she was pretty and frilly . Not every woman can be like her . She 's an unrealistic example . " Is she ? True , there are few people who are as thin as she is , and many women ( including myself ) wish we could be half as beautiful as she was , but she 's still an icon . A lot of women look up to her as an icon of fashion and life overall . What about your mom ? ( Not a yo momma joke , I promise . ) What does she do for a living ? Is she a doctor ? Does she work retail ? Is she a stay - at - home mom ? All of these things are worthy pursuits . She 's providing for her family , whatever she does . She doesn 't have to have the highest - paying job just to prove something . Stay - at - home moms are some of the fiercest people I 've ever met . Let 's just get one thing straight : women are amazing . All women are amazing . Even women who aren 't " feminists " by the world 's standards are amazing . Women who still have old - fashioned ideas about womanhood are amazing . Unconventional women who don 't want to get married or have children are amazing . Audrey Hepburns are amazing . Melissa McCarthys are amazing . Being very feminine is amazing . Being very not feminine is amazing too . Feminism is not shaming men . Feminism is not blaming everyone else for how bad you have it as a woman . Feminism is not belittling other women because of their opinions . Feminism is being your own kind of woman . You 're an amazing , feminine woman whether you own sixty shades of lipstick or prefer black skinny jeans over a skirt any day ( maybe you are both of these things at the same time , and that 's amazing too ) . You 're an amazing , feminine woman whether you played princess or pirate when you were a little girl . You 're amazing and feminine whether your idol is Taylor Swift or Condolezza Rice . You are a woman with beauty , power , and strength no matter who you are , without having to try to be anyone or anything else . You don 't have to adhere to societal ideals or typical " feminism " in order to be a true woman or to stand up for woman - kind . You know how you can stand up for woman - kind ? By working your butt off to make the life you want for yourself . Stop caring about what everyone else thinks feminism is and start being your own kind of feminist . By audreywierengain Inspiration , OpinionDecember 7 , 2016December 7 , 20161 , 382 Words1 Comment Not Good Enough ? I can taste the salt in my mouth if I think about it hard enough . You know that feeling your face gets when you cry ? It feels kind of full of everything - snot , tears , emotions . Your face just kind of turns into a big mess and there 's no way of hiding it . You just have to know that people know you 've been crying , no matter what you tell them . " Oh , I just decided to wash my makeup off for the day . " Likely story . Nope . Your face is full of emotions . It 's written all over your … face . You know that feeling your chest gets when you cry ? It gets smaller , but your lungs stay the same size . All your breath is squeezed out of you until you 're all but hyperventilating . You start choking on your own sobs , if it gets that bad . ( Trust me , I 've had experience ) The best place to cry is in bed , so no one sees you . It 's just you and your emotions staring you in the face . That 's when you 're most vulnerable to them , when all the lights are turned off and it 's quiet and you 're alone . I can remember a very specific time that I cried . Really hard . It was last spring , and I 'd just gotten back from an event on campus . I was in the shower ( another good place to cry ) thinking about what had happened that night . It was a dance , so I had watched a lot of dancing happen . I asked my friend to ask a guy to dance with me ( that 's the way I am . ) He did , but then left immediately afterwards . As I thought about the night and the couples and the dancing , I lost it . Even in that crowd of people , I 'd felt alone . What am I doing wrong ? Am I not enough ? A few nights ago , I was laying in bed feeling totally numb . ( Remember , those emotional times happen when you 're quiet and vulnerable , like in the shower or falling asleep . ) I 'd given up on feeling . I was bitter and I didn 't know why . I still really don 't know why . I cried again , but this time the tears were hot and I was angry . I think it was because I was tired of feeling like I wasn 't enough . We all know people who seem like they 're " enough . " They 're the people we follow on Instagram who don 't follow us back . The people who post cute pictures of themselves with their friends and a neat cliche caption underneath . Who seem so strong in their faith by the way they worship onstage at church or in the pews . The people who make life seem so easy . I 'm pretty sure you know who I 'm talking about . I 'm sure you 're picturing them in your head right now . For some reason , this quote from The Great Gatsby popped into my head . ( Wow , so original . A young adult woman quoting F . Scott Fitzgerald . ) It goes like this . If you went to high school , you 've seen this quote before : This quote is talking about two rich people who run away from responsibility ( like murder , which is not what we 're dealing with here ) but I think it can apply to people you think are " enough . " The thing is , those people who seem like they 're " enough " aren 't . They 're just as messy as you are , but they run away from it . They hide it behind a smile , a sheen of fake joy , a Facebook status ( FYI , Facebook is an easy platform to run away from things on , for a number of reasons . ) Maybe the reason I was crying a week ago was because I was done with trying to be fake . It 's exhausting . Sometimes it 's hard to determine the real from the fake in people . I feel bad for people who are trying so hard to be " authentic " but all the while are as fake as store - brand Coke . And pandering to fake people is like buying the fake stuff when real Coke is right there on the shelf . There have been a lot of times in my life when I 've tried to be as " enough " as these people seem to be . I 've done really stupid things that the real Audrey wouldn 't do . I turned into a social chameleon , blending in whenever it was convenient . I admit that sometimes I become that chameleon again . Because I 'm not enough . I 'm pretty good at taking pictures , but I 'm not great at it . My Instagram is full of pictures of trees and ironic selfies , usually with fewer than ten hashtags ( I have standards . ) I don 't have a DSLR camera , I don 't have a VSCO account , I don 't even go on cute little photoshoots with my friends . I don 't have 1 , 000 followers . I probably average 15 likes per picture , which to me is mind - blowing … until I see an " enough " person with 180 likes on theirs . If I had that , maybe then I 'd be enough . I 'm a good singer , but I 'm not a great singer . I don 't have awesome equipment or a SoundCloud account or even the confidence to record myself . And when I do record myself , it 's full of mistakes and awkward pauses because that 's who I am as a person . I know two chords on my guitar . I can 't just sit at a piano and jam with my friends or spontaneously worship like " enough " people do . But if I could , maybe then I 'd be enough . Maybe then . But do I really want to live a life of maybes ? Of course not . If I did , I 'd never accomplish anything . Sometimes I think I rely on that word too much . Maybe I will . Maybe someday I 'll actually be enough . " Maybe " equals waiting , and it 's foolish to live a life spent waiting . The thing is , I never will be . Ever . No one will ever be enough . There will always be an unattainable standard , whether it 's one you 've set for yourself or one you think others have for you . It hurts to feel like you 're not enough . It causes those choking sobs . But he said to me : " My grace is sufficient for you , for my power is made perfect in weakness . " Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses , so that the power of Christ may rest upon me . " ( 2 Cor . 12 : 9 , ESV ) Audrey , I 've heard this before . Blah blah blah Jesus is enough for you . But it doesn 't feel like it , does it ? It 's not supposed to . Because Paul was asking God to take his weakness away . God wasn 't gonna . They were going to stay put for Paul to wrestle with . And that is a blessing . Our weakness , our pain is a blessing . Someone once said , " There 's nothing memorable about a good night 's sleep . " Or something like that . We remember painful , draining times because they taught us something . Our " not - enough " - ness can teach us something . It taught me that fake people exist , and they need help more than anyone else , even if they look like they have it all together . Don 't lie about your " not - enough " - ness . Wear it proudly on your sleeve . I 'm a human . I 'm broken . I 'm hurting . Your struggles are mostly invisible to those around you , but they 're essential . Your unseen " not - enough " - ness is essential . It 's essential so that the love of Christ can be made perfect in your weakness . He is planning unseen , essential things within you every day . And sometimes those things aren 't so clear . They may not be clear in this world . It 's true - you 're not enough . But you 're essential . Boast it so everyone knows . Because they won 't see your mess - they will see rightly . By audreywierengain College , Faith , Inspiration , Opinion , Positivity , SelfNovember 25 , 20161 , 457 Words1 Comment Trying to Make a Difference Hello , blog family . I can call you family , right ? I feel like if you 've come this far on this very strange , very new journey with me , I have the right to call you family . You can call me Mom . ( Just kidding . Don 't . That 's awkward . ) Anyway , as I have promised before , this is where I spew out ideas about nothing in particular . Or something extremely particular . ( Like socks . I 've talked about socks before and that 's pretty particular . ) I 've been wracking my brain for something pithy to write here , since I 'm taking a digital media class right now and it 's making my blogging skills feel inadequate . I don 't post enough media ( like podcasts , pictures , etc . ) I just post the same , boring longform every time . Which I guess is okay for all fourteen of you who follow this blog . ( Speaking of that class , I have started a new blog about redemptive art . Check it out if you 'd like . That 's the first and the last time I 'll shamelessly plug myself . That 's a lie . ) Anyhow , back to spilling my brains . ( Gross . ) I have noticed something brewing in society at large lately . * Sits back pensively and takes a sip of tea * That sounds a lot more sophisticated than it is . It 's literally just something I 'm noticing on Facebook primarily . What I mean is , people are Avoiding . I could give you a comprehensive list of things going on in the world right now that people aren 't talking about . Things that need to be addressed . Yes , I have . People are incredibly rude on the Internet . They say things that they would never say in public ( or at least I hope not . ) They insult people 's intelligence when they disagree with them . That dreaded Comments Section . Well , yes . I would not advise you to go trolling a comments section , unless you enjoy casual strolls through the outer circles of Hell ( and bad grammar … and Caps Lock ) . But at the same time , don 't Avoid . Believe me , I 've been struggling with this the past few weeks , especially with all of the drama surrounding the presidential race in the US . Everyone has an opinion , but somehow everyone manages to disagree with everyone else . If you vote for one of them , you 're labeled as unintelligent , anti - feminist , anti - gay , and anti - pretty much everything else . If you vote for the other , you 're labeled as a traitor , a liar , a baby - killer , and so on . Both of them are telling you , " This is the right answer ! If you vote for the other one , you 're an ( insert colorful insult ) . " Still others are telling you that both candidates are stupid ( which , at this point , I 'm rather inclined to agree with ) and you should vote for a third party candidate . " This is the right answer ! Just look at all of this biased information I found about the Other Guy ! " You probably feel like giving up at this point , right ? I certainly do . I cringe whenever I see a political post on Facebook - " here we go again . I 'm just going to get criticized for my beliefs or see someone else 's beliefs get criticized . " I 'm not going to stand on a pedestal and preach at you , because I do this too . I get so fed up with the mudslinging that I just want to hide . I don 't want to tell anyone what my opinions are because I feel like it won 't matter , it 'll just be more Noise . The other day I was talking to my mom about how I wanted to stand on a soapbox high enough for everyone to see me and shout " Calm down ! " Think about that . You are the new media . Small though you may feel , you can make a difference just by stepping up . I 've been thinking about that ever since my mom texted that to me . You do know you can take control of your life , right ? There is not one single person on this earth who can tell you what to do if you don 't want them to . If someone tells you one way is right and you disagree , that 's okay . They might call you stupid , especially if they 're in a comments section . They might insult your intelligence . But they are not in control of your life . No news syndicate , celebrity , presidential candidate , or grizzly bear has the right to tell you who to believe , why to believe it , and , in this case , who to vote for . Remember that the next time a blaring headline comes across your computer screen .

The weather and the campaign trail are getting hot this July ; and the heat radiating from Cheyenne City Council Candidates canvassing neighborhoods , is no exception . This 2016 election brings out twenty - eight candidates between three City Wards . It appears that Individuals are crawling out of the woodwork this year , inspired to step up and serve their local community . Joe stands at about six foot four inches . He is a man who looks like he can lift some heavy equipment with agility … which all makes sense , when I find out he is a High Voltage Lineman . As I understand it , this isn 't easy work for the weak of heart , fear of heights type . This is work that transcends seasons , and jumps straight to badass modern necessity ; a - no - one - likes - being - left - without - power - during - a - snowstorm - kind - of - labor . Now , personally , electricity scares the dried fecal matter out of my colon . I don 't really understand how it works . I know that it is especially dangerous when prefixed by the words " High " and " Voltage " . This isn 't the case when it comes to Shogrin . Joe isn 't scared of electricity or heights . Joe loves his job . Beyond that … Joe LOVES helping people . As luck , God , or good grace would have it ; Joe found himself at the right place , at the right time when he went into the Altus City Building to ask about available jobs . He was presented with the opportunity for an entry level , seasonal meter reading gig that would be laid off in six months . He took the job , reading meters for six months , and at the end of it promptly joined the Linemen Apprentice Program . " Cheyenne is an interesting market because a lot of our Councilmen ( people ) are small business owners , so they look out for small business interests which is an important dynamic that needs to happen , but I feel like the council today isn 't really for the people . Politics shouldn 't be that way at any level . They are there for us , there to serve us . That is what I want to get back to . That is why I want to be on Council . I feel like we have a problem here ; a disconnect from the people to the Council ; the Council to the people , right on up into the State house and the Senate , upward . We basically have disconnects on every level of Council right now , which is dangerous . " " I 've worked for the city ( as a lineman ) and one of the biggest strengths I bring to the table is moderation . Mediation is where it is at . I am some one who is willing to moderate and work in the middle . You give a little bit here , you take a little bit there , and after a while you have a compromise . " So , Joe Shogrin is a willing mediator in favor of compromise . He comes across as open minded and level headed , not to mention brave , with functional risk taking . ( Heck , you have to possess those attributes to get that far off the ground to deal with electricity in treacherous weather … . ) " I am very supportive of our local economy , but our economy goes through these boom or bust cycles every 10 years with oil . We have good employers ; ( it just seems ) when we are comfortable making money , we crash . We don 't plan ahead , we don 't set anything aside for when the bottom falls out . You can 't base your economy off of two or three ( major income ) issues with a city this size ; we have to diversify our income sources and work load as well as the types of jobs we have . I am kind of disappointed because I see our Council and Candidates , and when I talk to them they are like ' We have to support small business ! ' And I agree 100 % , BUT , we also have to support moving forward to the next level so we can ( as a community ) support small business . If people have money in their pocket , they are going to spend it and they are going to spend it here , mostly . Now they may go to Fort Collins , but we could build up our down town area ; do stuff that will keep them ( local money ) here . " We talked for awhile about Keith Coombes recent Facebook post for Ernie Novembers ' Record Store , calling out downtown business owners for having such short business hours ; especially in the summer time , on the week end . Just a few weeks ago Keith kept the business open an hour later than their usual 9 pm closing down . Ernie November , already stays open later , every day of the week , than any other non food related walk - in place of commerce in down town Cheyenne . By keeping the doors open for interested patrons , beyond the posted closing time , thereby engaging the community ; the business was able to make an extra $ 500 bones on the books . This is great for one small local business … and it should be inspiration to other small business owners to take heed and ride the periodic tides we have when it comes to downtown interest and seasonal shopping . ( Here is a link to Keith 's post if you want to check it out for yourself . ) " One of the constituents ( running with me ) is big on down town . His platform is ' Bring Back Downtown . ' He says that he goes down there at night , and it 's dead except for the bar scene . You have a couple of beers and walk around , but there is nothing to do . It makes you wonder , what is there to go down there for ? The bar scene ? That may not be what the Councils ' job is , but , it 's also ( what adds to ) a perception of the community . Everyone is struggling to make a living , and so as a Council , what can we do to help them ? I know that business owners are making their own schedules and want their time … not everyone is willing to work 12p - 9p ; and it isn 't the Councils job to impose that … but as a friend of the community , working to be in the Council ; I would suggest that they really look at that and consider adjusting . Maybe try working some different hours and see what you get in the results . Downtown is essential to so many activities in Cheyenne . We have the Plaza , the Depot and space ; sadly , it is underutilized . Bring the people in like we do on Friday 's . If I am to be a steward of peoples money , I 'm not just going to spend it ( willy nilly ) . I am not going to spend it on something that I wouldn 't spend my own money on . " Joe is a blue collar guy , working blue collar work . He has to get his pants dirty and his hands callused to do what he does . He has to challenge his fears and step into the unknown in order to help strangers . He finds satisfaction in a job well done . I admire these attributes in general , and especially when it comes from those who feel invigorated enough to step from their obscure silence into a cooperative community position ; willing and excited to help tow the line . I shared my concern about certain ambitious projects in the city that seem to be rising to the top of discussions without real priority ; for instance , the Sky Bridge . It is a very large scale project that was introduced to the town as " a way to make our skyline unique " , yet it doesn 't seem that this project should be any priority ; especially when taking into consideration that there are so many defunct properties in down town … It seems like an over ambitious project with no real connection to realistic priorities as it pertains to actually improving Downtown Cheyenne for its residents . Another example is the Children 's Museum that started as a granted project , and is now being presented as a building that will be paid for with tax dollars , under the guise that it will invigorate a down town that already has a parking problem , and few options for kids . ( On a personal note , I think the Museum is a great idea , but it belongs closer to Lions Park with other kid / family friendly activities ; perhaps in the existing old terminal of the Regional Airport , which is historic in itself . ) I also share my concern that we are wasting resources with all of these surveys that cost money to assess , in order to figure out a consensus for the direction of down town . " A project like the Sky Bridge should be funded by grants on a Federal level . And if they try and make us pay for it through taxes , I am going to fight it . I will dress up as Darth Vadar with my friends dressed up as Chewbacca and everything , and I will say ' DO NOT PASS ' and have some fun with it . Most of these surveys are coming from the State level . I have been talking to some of the candidates I am running with , who are interested in interacting on that level , and I think I can smooth a road over between State Statutes and City Council . If that could happen we could make a positive impact in Cheyenne and Casper , because ( State statute ) it effects them too . Joe is a big proponent of calling out what doesn 't work , and then figuring out solutions that work best for everyone . He has a soft heart for those around him that are suffering from circumstances that are out of their control . He asserts his compassion by volunteering community service , coaching soccer and mentoring children who have no fathers . " I could be at home watching night shows like everybody else , but instead I choose to invest my time in the future . I have been watching City Council meetings for about two years . I get upset about it because they are suppose to be the voice of the citizens and some of the things they vote for are not Citizen Friendly . It 's like , if I started ' Joe 's Lawn Mowing Business ' or ' Joe 's Tiki Hut Stand on The Corner of Joe Rd . ' Then my interest would be ' well I gotta make sure they don 't close that little loophole , so I can keep my business . ' That is how they ( City Council ) work , they protect only what serves them . I serve people . That is who I want to serve . I care about everybody , including them . So far as I can tell , there is no real Leadership on Council . " Shogrin 's goal in acquiring one of the Ward 3 Council seats , is to bring together the community of Cheyenne . He understands that many hands working together , can accomplish more in less time . He believes that some of the beautification that needs to happen in the city , could be accomplished quickly if we could set a time and date to get together to get things done . He notices that people are some what " shelled off " in this city , and he wants bring them out of their isolation . He wants to have a strong community that cares for the welfare of one another . " We have to take care of ourselves . Not just our house , but our community . That is hard to talk people into doing because people are so introverted and shelled off from the world with their face in their cellphone on Facebook . " " I can 't say enough nice stuff about the people that I have met who ( are also ) running . I mean they all seem like really nice people . I am not running against them ; I am running WITH them . In all honesty , if I get in , and they don 't all they gotta do is call me and say ' Hey , Joe . Watch out for this . Can you help me with this ? ' In my mind I am running with seven other people . We all want the same thing ; we want to make Cheyenne stronger , bigger , and better . Basically I am surrounded by seven other people that have the same heart for the City that I do ; so why would I make an enemy instead of a friend ? I care for those people . Win or lose , we are in it together . " Team work and compromise , is not a platform many actually run on … in fact , to some it may not even seem like a platform at all . The truth speaks loudly in this moment ; if we truly love our City and desire to make it better , we have to work together and prioritize our compromises . Is Cheyenne mature enough to be progressive and thoughtful in it 's evolution ? Cheyenne is large enough , to start carving out it 's own unique image in the comparative landscapes of other cities . What do we want to represent to ourselves and prospective future residents , and visitors alike ? As the cost of living continues it 's incremental increase across the boarder in Colorado ; Cheyenne is bound to be a destination for those who can 't afford to live in Colorado 's changing economy . How can we encourage those who move here , but retain work in Colorado , to spend their money in Cheyenne with local business ' ? Especially when the heart of the city is in somewhat sad disrepair ? What can we do to beautify our town and effectively diversify ? " A constituent made a comment about maybe trying to get the homeless people out of that area ( downtown ) , and the Wyoming Tribune Eagle spun it like they 're a homeless hater . I 'm like ' No . ' The press will do that to you . ' But , responsibly , if you get them out of the area , you help give them means and ways to work . You gotta work with them , to have them work with you . There is always a balance , always a compromise to work things out . My friends joke that I could negotiate a deal between the Devil and God . I say , ' I might be able to ' It 's about compromise , and it 's about working together and that 's my whole agenda . " One of the big compromises Joe observes that needs some attention , is the wages in our great State . At this point in time , wages for most jobs doesn 't even come close to competitive national averages ; which could be one reason Colorado transfers , may choose to keep their jobs and money across the boarder . Joe is concerned that our below average wages need to be addressed as a way of adding to the positive draw for current and future residents . " If you have a CDL other places you average about $ 50 , 000 per year . Here you make about $ 12 . 24 an hour , which is about $ 25 , 000 dollars a year . And here you have to have a Heavy Machine License , because a lot of these guys have to go unload heavy equipment … so that is additional , but typically a Heavy Machine Operator will make $ 60 - 70 thousand a year . Not here . We may pay those guys $ 18 an hour . Then we have our Fire and Police departments , and we are growing , so we need to think about that because those departments are going to have to grow in the future . Since I have been here , I think we have grown by 6 , 000 , that 's a lot , and now we are short on both Fire and Police . I was talking to both Chiefs , and basically Fire needs another outpost over on the east side of town . Those business ' on the east side of town actually have higher insurance rates because the response time of the Fire Department . That is one of our bigger employment centers over there . There are 2000 plus jobs in that area . An area of address Shogrin finds pertinent , is the need for City funding to diversify their support into more of the activities and organizations in town . Joe then referenced the failing Ice and Events Center that was taken over by the City a few years ago . Lack of advertising and promotion of activities at the Event Center has made it slip to the back of most peoples minds when contemplating a fun family friendly social activity . " The city tends to really support four or five organizations . We don 't promote our business ' well enough . There are local business ' here , that I haven 't even heard of . You can go down off Dell Range into one of the local shops ; take my friend who owned Kabob King . When he took over that building down there behind Applebees , and I go in there to have a Kabob Burger , and I look over at Applebees and their parking lot is packed . I look at his parking lot , and there are two cars in it . Applebees is a big box store . 90 % of the money they make over there goes back to the corporation and the rest goes to service and bar staff . We have a lot of organizations that can help you promote your business , but a problem I see , is they are not all under one umbrella and they need not be governed by the City Council because that says corruption . Maybe not this year , maybe not next year , or even in eight years ; some where down the way , it 's going to get corrupt . Corrupt government pisses me off more than anything . If I see something right or wrong going on , I am going to call it . If it 's wrong , and I am doing it , I am going to apologize and get re - educated . I 'm not above that , it 's a strength I have going into Council , if I get there . I 'm not above admitting when I am wrong and learning something new . Sometimes I need help too , and I am not afraid to ask for it . " Observing past candidates and current Council meetings leaves much to be desired in even giving the illusion of working together as a committee for the people . Many meetings run long circles around the issues with little being accomplished with the time spent meant to progress the city and address issues . Members seem unwilling to compromise or budge on their stances , which begs the question , are these representatives REALLY FOR the people and the City , or are they solely fixated on protecting their own personal interests ? " I am like , one percent asshole . Other than that I want to bring people together . At the end of the day I want us all to work together as a team . My first goal in City Council , would be to bring everyone to work together as a team . The first thing we have to realize is the first priority is , we are working together for the same reason ; We are for the people , we are for Cheyenne . It 's an easy commitment . If some one is 25 % right about something , we don 't have to just shoot them down . You take that 25 % and build on it . Without our town having a great future , our business ' will not have a great future . If business doesn 't have a great future , the town isn 't going to have a great future and have a chance to actually become prosperous . " You see beer bottles sitting in the gutter for 3 days and no one wants to pick it up . We don 't practice due diligence in picking things up . One of the issues we have with downtown is it just needs a new coat of paint … and if enough people were to help , we could get it done in three hours . It doesn 't have to take a lot to make a place look awesome . If the City were to prioritize , and set aside a few days where city employees just went around helping people get things cleaned up … Can you imagine all these experts in their field with a budget and some grants , and we could clean up downtown nicely . We have beautiful buildings , they 've just been neglected . Every downtown is known for having a ghetto area . How can Cheyenne , revitalize and address the issues that arise from an alcohol infused area that draws homelessness and at - risk adults , effectively ? How do we clean up our act with out over gentrifying ? How can we assist sub - sectors of our community that are disenfranchised and potentially dealing with chemical abuse and mental health issue , who are drawn to these areas where like minded poverty stricken peers congregate ? " I know why they congregate down there . Both of our Homeless Resources are down there within walking distance . You have the intersection of two busy highways right down there , and on top of that you have three places downtown there that offer free wifi . Then you are also in walking distance of MLK park , in which they sleep in if they can 't find a spot that is safe to sleep at , at night . It 's not about making the homeless people leave downtown , it 's about giving them an incentive to leave downtown . I think that is the problem people have had with downtown ' Oh , it has to be clean ' and they want to do like they did in Denver . They swept through the homeless parks and rifled through their things , destroyed their things . " Overall it appears Joe Shogrin really is for the people and the City . He is most definitely NOT a douche - bag . His apparent willingness to work with and for others , all while focusing on resourceful solutions that capitalize on the unique expertise and strengths of individuals working as a team , seems profound and exactly what the city of Cheyenne needs right now . With this attitude many positive things can be accomplished over a shorter period of time , thereby accelerating us into a bountiful future for this Magic City . In all seriousness , it appears that he has a completely diametric effect on those who have taken notice of his politics ; whether from the outside looking in , or first hand . You either love him , hate him or find yourself completely confused by him and his presence in the political arena . Some may say , though , that " that 's par for the course when it comes to politicians . " Rich , however , is far from par for the course when it comes to politics . Richard is a life long resident of Cheyenne . Being labeled as " subversive " or " controversial " is nothing new when it comes to how he chooses to play his role in the game of society . Even from a young age , Rich was getting things done in a manner of hard grit sandpaper . Ruffling feathers with his ideas ; all the while making strong attempts to bring sub - sectors of our community , places and ways to feel involved . At a first and superficial glance some may assumed that Rich is just out to break things . Breaking the systems and people who view him as obstructive or destructive … but can One individual really break something that is already blocked and / or broken ? Can One individual use their own transparency to show others that they need not pretend that superficial fixes and ignorance will alleviate a certain history of systematic dysfunction , that no longer fits our growing and changing economy ? As per usual , he has also accessorized with one of his favorite black metal band t - shirts ; today it 's Panzerfaust . According to Wikipedia " Panzerfaust is an inexpensive , single shot , recoil - less German anti - tank weapon of World War II . It consists of a small , disposable pre - loaded launch tube firing a high - explosive anti - tank warhead , and was intended to be operated by a single soldier . " This could be the end of this article . Whether or not he realizes it ( and I guess that he does ) , he sums himself up consistently , without the help of others . Yeah , it 's pretty much , this whole escapade is total fucking failure . At least my site lives up to it 's name now . ( The infamous FaceBook page " Richard Johnson , You Failed This City ) Well , because I know that there are ebbs and flows , and right now it 's on a flow , and soon it will be on an ebb … and we 're going to get another old man as Mayor . And I bet you that this year the status quo is going to go out in droves and kill everything ( progressive . ) I was actually waiting for more candidates to run against me , not because of who I am , but basically because of what I stand for . So I thought there would be a lot more opposition candidates . I mean they have nine more days to file … I figured they would come in a put the kibosh on it . I mean if they really look at it , I haven 't done anything except repeal some laws and ordinances . Like spitting is coming up , and weapons . Basically chickens was a thing that nobody thought should happen , but I just did it to piss people off . " No , I knew exactly what I was doing . I did it with the skate park . I knew what government was all about , that 's why I thought I could just , kind of , mesh in . But , you know , really , it 's just smoke and mirrors . I don 't really feel like anything has really been accomplished in seventeen months . No . And I never do . I never run on that type of shit . I told them , that I have no agenda . For my write in , let 's just say that this community better hope I 'm never elected for Mayor . I will raise impact fees for developers . I will never have a six penny or seven penny tax , where you have to pay for a fire station because a developer wants to keep a couple of million for themselves . I WILL RAISE IMPACT FEES , and I WILL make developers pay for fire stations and more police officers . And I know , the Chamber of Commerce is going to come after me and tell me that I am not supporting local business . Then the Council is going to flip flop on me because they are a bunch of cowards . They are going to get scared that suddenly local business ' that hires local employees , is going to get the shaft again . If you look at inflation rates the Walmart on Livingston paid $ 125 . 00 for their final flat . " As you may have heard before this article , Johnson , is running on a write in campaign . No signs , no banners , no $ 25 . 00 entry fee to put his name in the hat . He doesn 't think you need to spend money for a campaign , and he is out to prove it in his own renegade way . Some people are laughing , I know … and maybe I am giggling a little on the inside , too . My reason is , " you never know until you try , and if you don 't put any money in … what do you have to lose ? " Right ? A slight controversy recently came up online , after Marian Oor announced her Mayoral bid with videos , balloons and bright orange posters . Richard boiled it down to gimmicks and things that would end up as trash in peoples yards . In turn he encouraged voters to avoid posters on their lawns and in their business ' , and instead , actually investigate what the constituents were currently doing in the community that would prove they should have a seat ( whether City Council , Mayor , or beyond . ) Social Media followers of Richard Johnson , and active participants in the community eager to try their hand at city council agreed with his logic . Gabe Pina of Pina Accounting and the Downtown Cheyenne Business Coop is running for a seat in Ward 3 City Council . He was inspired to ask his supporters to donate to one of several community charities in lieu of campaign donations . I almost feel like an asshole now , every time I go into a new business opening , because I am surrounded by fake assholes . I am surrounded by ' candidates ' . It 's almost like everything I have done for the last year and a half on my own was " Oh I am elected , now I have to really go out and support my community . Anything having to do with Cheyenne ; issues within the community have been posted to his social media participants , by Richard himself . Concerns by the public have been emailed to him , and he has posted them anonymously to gauge the interest of the community with topics raised . Overall , Rich has made a pretty concerted effort to attend as many events as possible regardless of niche or perceived " cool " factor . When the despair hits , it leads to an overwhelming feeling of being misunderstood , and alienated . These feelings amplify self criticism ; making the already annoying self critical response clock in off the charts . A pervasive weight of " I can do nothing right . " and " It 's all my fault . " The thoughts and feelings that you may have had on " good days " now are second guessed and reduced to illusion . That voice of illusion , says " No one really loves you . No one ever will . " However , he was not interested in those classes ; which said to me , he didn 't really care about Us . It broke my heart , and inevitably we split up . For years , I wondered , " what if ? What if he was invested in my desire to get better ? " I have since had to move on from that , and accept where I am , and who I am today . I know that not just any one can handle the unforeseen upsets of the future . It will require strength , patience , and cooperation . I confess ; I am the mess . I am the beast with talon feet . I am the rage and the endless sadness . The builder of madness and tears that never seem to dry . That is Sara Goossen in a nutshell . The lady is powerful , energetic , and ready to knock excuses out of the way . She is a bright and compassionate person who sees the potential in people and then helps individuals harness their inner bad ass . This talent is an imperative staple in her personal business model . October 1 , 2012 , Sara opened Fit Body Boot Camp - Cheyenne , with 14 clients . Her goal is to change the lives of 5000 of Cheyenne 's citizens by 2017 . As of April 2015 , she has trained and cultivated a community of 1200 residents who are interested in adopting a healthy life style . That is an average of 400 people a year , getting active and aware in the fair city of Cheyenne and it 's surrounding areas . No small feat for this 5 ' 3 ″ wrecking ball . Before I jump into the interview , I would like to state that when you are looking for a gym , and a support system to help you change your habits ; having a leader like Sara is imperative because she has run the gamut of unhealthy eating and body weight issues . She has children , she knows struggles and excuses . She has taken initiative on her own , in her own life in order to transcend her past hang ups . In turn Sara has turned hardships into valuable insight for those at any point in their fitness journey . It may be easier for certain people to take her ethic very seriously because she didn 't start out on this lifestyle right after high school or college before having children ; when most women 's bodies are still in that youthful metabolism . She wasn 't always healthy . It was a choice that she had to dedicate herself to ; which meant a long road of challenges that led to the changes that are evident in her today . So , at ten years old that started fourteen years of just roller coaster disordered eating ; ranging the spectrum of binging and purging to just starving myself . When I got pregnant with my son , when I was sixteen , I kind of just said " Fuck it . It doesn 't matter if I am skinny ; it doesn 't matter if I am fat … I am pregnant . I can eat whatever I want and have no guilt . " I gained 50 pounds when I was pregnant with him , and I lost ten . I lost some weight nursing , but after I stopped nursing him , I continued the disordered eating cycle . Yep , just picked it up right where I left off . And I knew … I was an athlete in high school , I knew about nutrition but it 's not something that I ever listened to because disordered eating was so much easier than learning how to feed myself . At nineteen I married my now ex - husband , ( my daughters ' father ) and gained all that " happy weight " I maxed out the scale before we got married , at 197 lbs … . so , I looked like a cow in my wedding dress . After that we were trying to get pregnant with Emma , and couldn 't get pregnant … couldn 't get pregnant . We tried for two years , and I finally went to the doctor and asked " what is going on ? " I was diagnosed with Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome ( PCOS ) and the doctor told me that I had to make a lifestyle change , or else …. " you 're going to end up with diabetes ; you are more apt to have certain types of cancer , you are just going to get fatter , your thyriod is going to peter out … " All the things that go along with PCOS … " This is your future . You either make a change now or enjoy your future where it is headed . " So I lost about 20 lbs . and we got pregnant with Emma through a series of fertility treatments . When I was pregnant with Emma I only gained about 20 lbs and then I lost it all right away . At that point they ( the doctors ) said " Well you are probably not going to be able to have any more children , so don 't worry about it . " And I thought , okay , cool ; I am just going to go back to doing the whole weight loss thing , because I still had fifty pounds to go . So I lost another twenty pounds , and then I got pregnant with my daughter Ileena … BOOM ! I remember going to my dads house and saying , " Well … I am pregnant again just when I was gettting my ' sexy ' back . " My grandma looks at me and says " Well honey , maybe that 's the problem . " Yeah ! So I got pregnant and did that whole thing and I only gained fifteen pounds with Ailena , and I lost that all right away . November 2009 I found Body For Life , Bill Phillips , transformation . com ; whom I heard about from my step - mom . So I thought , I am going to try this thing . ( Everybody thought I was crazy for starting during the holidays . ) It was pretty easy ; three days of lifting , three days of cardio , all high intensity intervals . By doing that the next three months I was able to loose the rest of the weight . About half way through that three month process I was like " Ya , know , I want to help other people because I can do this as some one who has struggled their whole life with eating well and taking care of themselves … I can help some one else do this . " It was about four months and about that time I was working for my dad as his administrative assistant amoung other things . I decided that I would try this training thing before and after work , and see what happens . I did that and it just blew up , so in June 2010 , I quit my job working for my dad and I started training full time . I was doing a lot of one on one training and two boot camp sessions at a local gym . I was making money , doing something I love . I worked there for two years and I left because there were some issues that made it neccessary for me to get out of that environment . I decided , I am just going to start my own place ; I left and they came after me with for violating my no - compete / no - solicitation agreement . Looking back , I was so mad at the time . I was furious , like how could they do this ? How can this stand up ? Well , it stood up because I had solicited the people who had signed up with me , but were also their clients . I had to take a year off of training and I went back to working for my dad for a year and within that year I knew I needed to do something . I was miserable . When you are following a life of passion and suddenly it is taken away ; it 's like the wind has been knocked out of your sails . You don 't even feel like a human being . I started looking down in Colorado for places I could move to and open up . I was doing all this during the same time I was being sued and working for my dad ; I also had gotten a divorce from my kids father . It was everything that could go wrong , did . Yes , that was the year . One year to the day , October 1 , 2012 ; we opened up with fourteen clients . I was just so excited to be open and be able to do what I love to do . That 's it … the rest is history . Here we are today ; looking for another space , a bigger place … sitting down with the bank and talking about bigger loans . The fitness industry is so small , it really is . So if you don 't know every one you soon will if you stay in it long enough . I met him doing a master mind . I was in there with the two founders of Fit Body Boot Camp , Steve Hochman and Bedros Keuilian . I was in Steve 's Master Mind and through that I met Bedros . We had several conversations and talked on the phone several times , emailed back and forth ; He called me up one day and said " What 's it going to take to get you to open a Fit Body ? And I told him , " You know what it will take , you know what I am up against right now . It 's going to have to take one hell of a deal and some patience and that is where it 's at . " So he said " Alright , let 's make it happen . " I do know a lot of the Fit Body owners simply because we get together quarterly ; every three months , usually in San Diego or Chino Hills , California . There is a great community with in Fit Body , even from a corporate structure coming all the way down to the clients . It 's nice that we can just continue to pay it forward . It 's pretty cool , and a very unique situation . I first competed in August of 2011 , I also ran the Denver half marathon in October 2010 , and after that I gave myself permission to never run again . ( laughter . ) I find it really useless and painful . It turns out I am better suited for lifting heavy things than go fast . I did . I placed 5th in the second show , I was pretty excited about that . Granted there were only six figure competitors , so I was 5th , but I was happy to have something to take home , regardless . The one in 2011 was in Loveland , Colorado . The Warrior Classic , and the other one was in Wyoming , and that was the Jay Cutler Classic . And that Dude , is a Big Dude . I have a picture of him somewhere . Honestly I am getting the bug again , to compete . I am trying to weigh out the time commitment that it takes , along with my other obligations to see what it will take … if it 's something I can feasibly do right now while keeping everything else balanced . I do love competing . That is one of the most fun things about competition ; you get to meet so many interesting people from all over the country . People who are busting their asses just to get super lean for just a minute . It literally lasts a day . You deplete enough to have a six pack for a day , and then you gain 20 pounds the next day because you drink water . It 's crazy . It would be interesting to time lapse a person going through the build up to competition , and then the 24 hours afterward . Once you get the tanner off , and start drinking water again , it 's like what the hell ? You blossom like a flower . You still eat , you carb load the day of to fill out your muscles because you have depleted to the point that you have taken all the glycogen and striped your body of literally everything . It 's not something you want to do often because it is kind of dangerous , BUT , it 's still fun to push your mental ability and physical barriers . That is big for me , because I love the challenge . It 's kind of interesting that you have struggled with disordered eating which is in and of itself sort of an addiction , and pushing your body to a limit and challenging it , but not in a very healthy way . And here you have turned your addiction around to a healthier way of expressing it . Yet , there are still these extremes that you go to . It totally is . What I think helps me with competing and the lifestyle of body building is the structure that it provides . It 's like a security blanket . You take some one with an eating disorder who has struggled with that their entire life , and you say , " you don 't have to struggle , here is some structure . Have a nice day . " It 's like , " okay , this is safe . " Yeah , it 's like any other fitness goals … as long as you have that dead line … the finish line at the end ; it makes it that much easier . It 's not like you have to do this for a lifetime or else … It 's here is your dead line , and then you reset the goal . And that is something that is really , really exciting for me . Through competing I learned to accept my body , where ever it is ; whether I am 120 pounds or 145 . I am still strong , I am still beautiful and I am still worthy of love and acceptance and success . That is one of those things that I have accidentally learned through the process . It is a by product . I know a lot of people who compete who struggle with that mindset . Like if they don 't have a six pack they are done for . They are like " Oh My God , My Life Is OVER ! " It basically boils down to bulemia or dysmorphia . It 's all activated on the same brain wave length , same neurological pathway . It 's been nice to find freedom from that as I have gotten older . To not be stressed out about the numbers , to see yourself and be like " You look good ! " That 's funny beacause when I took two months off earlier this year , my kids were like " what is wrong with her ? " I did not feel like myself . I felt like I was insane most days ; like absolutely bat shit crazy . Yeah , I needed that rush of endorphins and I think it was something that I had always taken for granted because I have been doing it for so long , it 's just been part of my life for so long . When I completely took it out , I had no idea the impact it would have on me . Not just physically but spiritually , emotionally and mentally . I got to tell you , the week we started working out again , my husband and I ; He was like " Gosh you are so much easier to be around . " And I knew he meant that in the sweetest way possible , instead of being a jerk , and I was like " I know , trust me , it 's easier to be in my head . " I went to the doctor and I asked am I schitzophrenic , what is going on here ? And she said " I think you are depressed . " And I just needed exercise . My favorite one , honestly , is from when I very , very first started . He followed me when I opened Fit Body . His name is Austin , he was 16 when he came to me he was 386 lbs . and he was tall and huge . He knew he had a problem . He was home schooled so he didn 't have a lot of interaction with other kids . The reason he was home schooled was because when he was in school , the other kids were just horrible to him because he was so big and kind of awkward and quiet . He would come , every single day to Boot Camp . At that point in time , they were 1 1 / 2 hour sessions , he would show up at 6 : 00 AM , every day . And even if he couldn 't do it , he would struggle through it . His mom was onboard , but I didn 't see her much . Sometimes she would come and walk while he did Boot Camp . Every now and then she would come talk to me , well when I took the year off , Austin started power lifting and he took his focus off the weight loss . Then he came over to Fit Body when I opened , and he brought his mother with him , and they did it together . It was just so , so , so cool . He ended up losing 110 lbs by the time he was 19 . Then they moved to Oregon . He was such a great , great kid . It was just so cool to see how he was able to influence his mom because it 's usually the parents who influence the kids . He was able to influence his mom after two years of going at it by himself . Yes , she was , but such a nice , nice gal . I look back on those two , especially Austin and I think " That kid could have made every excuse in the world because teenagers do , adults do . Teenagers learn from what the adults model . " He just was like " I am tired of this . I am tired of being the ' fat kid ' . I don 't mind being a ' big kid ' , I am 6 ' 3 ″ . But I am tired of being the ' fat kid ' " The last Halloween he was here , he dressed up as The Hulk ; and that involved taking off his shirt , and painting himself green , and walking around with out a shirt on . Two years prior to that you would have never seen him do that . It was so cool to see him blossom from this awkward quiet , video gamer ( indoor ) kid to this little ball of life and energy , and sass . Oh God , yeah ! The kids are like " Mom , go work out , you are driving us crazy . " It is also nice though , because my husband and I can share it together . Every morning Monday through Saturday we go work out together , and then go to work and do our thing . It 's been a good bonding experience for us too . Although it did take us three years for him to come and work out with me . The first time we exercised together , he was having a bad day and we were just friends at the time . I was like " he 's having a bad day , just go lift , and he will be fine . " Well a half hour in , he is dry heaving on himself , and I was like " I thought you were in shape ? " Well , after that he didn 't come back to work out with me for three years . And he comes to boot camp , and he makes it through the whole thing , and after that he said " I am going to have to wait until you are ' deconditioned ' a little before we can work out together . " Ha , ha ! Oh man , if some one said that to me , I would have to reevalute everything . I really do just want to leave an impact on this world . And , Cheyenne … God Bless it , and all of it 's citizens ; ( but Cheyenne ) is a FAT city . Overweight , unhealthy ; spiritually , mentally and physically . People are over worked and under paid , or over worked and over paid . They have little or no time for their families , no time for themselves ; no time to do anything . So we have people spinning their wheels , but for what ? At the end of the day if you don 't have your health , you have nothing left . I don 't want to out live my children . I see obese kids around and I want to slap their parents . I don 't want to beat the kids , but I want to slap the parents . It makes me so mad . But then I look at it , and you have to change the lives of the parents before you can change the lives of the children . At the end of the day , it is our job as adults to make those responsible decisions . It isn 't easy , but it is our responsiblity . It is just fitness , it is just a work out … but it can change EVERYTHING . I have seen it with myself . I saw it when I started my journey years ago and I still see it today . If I don 't work out , I need to work out because I start feeling ' cagey ' inside . Anxious . I think just staying the course . Every day is a new day . I can 't say one event has been a real defining moment in my health and fitness journey . I think it just staying course with the lifestyle . I mean sometimes I fall off , just like anyone . I go on a little cookie diet , when I feel stressed , and then I gain eight pounds and then I have to lose it again . At the end of the day just knowing that I am doing what I need to be doing is just great . But when I am not doing that I can tell a difference . So for me , it 's just committing to the lifestyle . No . Not really because I believe even the hard stuff is lessons . And I think I am far more grateful now toward some of the hardships that I went through . When you look back at it , it just gives you an oppertunity to learn about yourself ; to learn about others and the way the world works . Hardships are often self inflicted . So if anything it 's just learning about who I am and who I want to be and who I do not want to be . It 's just about growing up . It 's just about consistency . You have to pick and plan and be consistent . It doesn 't matter what your plan is , as long as it has some good foundation of physical health , mental health and spiritual health . Even if it 's CrossFit or lifting or body building or boot camp ; whatever it is , I think it 's just about picking something that works for you and stick with it . I know Boot Camp isn 't for everyone . I wish it was . At the end of the day finding something that works and sticking with it long enough to get results . So many people just go about their life by starting a new program every two weeks , saying " But I am just not getting results . " and I am like " Dude , it 's only been two weeks . Do you know how long it took me to lose 70 pounds ? " Beginning to end it took three years . Granted I got pregnant twice in between , but it took me three years to lose that 70 pounds . It 's not going to happen over night . Typically eight weeks , especially for women . I call it an 8 Week Miracle . Literally nothing on the scale can change and inches may not change , but may be your clothes fit differently . For whatever reason the inches may not change , your body fat may not change , and then one day you wake up and somewhere between the bedroom and the bathroom , you realize you lost your ass . It 's like it 's just fallen off somwhere and you hop on the scale and you are down ten pounds from the night before . And you will be like " what the hell ? My scale must be broken . " " Oh I am just gonna work out for eight weeks and hope that everything is going to happen . You have to have a plan . Have a plan of attack and exicute it flawlessly . Even if you have one bad day , okay , perfect ; get back on the band wagon , but don 't let that one bad day or one bad meal derail you for the next six months . So I think that is the key . Consistency . You have to be consistent , no matter what . And that goes with anything ; if it 's fitness related , or business related , or if you want better relationships . What ever it is , BE CONSISTENT ! STICK WITH YOUR PLAN ! Things WILL change . Fit Body Boot Camp is calling out more of Cheyenne to get involved in their fitness ; and during the month of May we are taking extra efforts to expose residents to the opportunity . If you have been following this blog and you are tempted to try it ; COME ON DOWN ! Let them know you read this blog and that it has helped you to take the first step in health and wellness ; or if you are new to town and looking for a fitness community and this seems up your alley , come take a test drive . If this article interests you and you would like to read more , check out these related blogs . And as always I appreciate " likes " , comments , suggestions and subscribers ; so please feel free to interact . And remember kids , Fitness is great , but Burpees SUCK ! I made a mistake today . I did something that I had purposefully been avoiding , knowing if I did it , it would make my head spin and send me out of control emotionally . But I went ahead and did it anyway . I didn 't really need to do it . I can look at myself with or without a mirror , and tell with certainty , shit ain 't right . But I did it anyway , as some sort of sick confirmation of my misery . Over the last 3 years I have lived the most stagnant life I have ever had the privilege of living . I take care of my 87 year old grandmother . And though I love her dearly , my chosen obligation has absolutely derailed my previous life styles . I know that concepts of beauty are not entirely tied into how much a person weighs . Beauty is a thing from within , that is sometimes evident without . I do not feel beautiful on either side of the coin . I have been strategically hiding behind costumes in order to play a role of comfort and confidence . I have seen myself be physically content with my body before , and it is the best feeling EVER ! Why ? Because it becomes one less thing to worry about on a day to day basis . When I am happy with my physical appearance , I feel more capable of handing other aspects of living . No one likes the girl who is constantly worried about how she looks because she doesn 't have the confidence to radiate . Facing the truth of how my body has morphed over the last 3 years , happened about a month ago . I stood to a challenge and went to an comedy open mic . I recorded my set . The set wasn 't bad at all , but I couldn 't get over how my once toned arms , radiated white like big wings on a bird . They seem huge . I use to joke that women need great girl friends that will let them know when they start to get back fat . I haven 't had any girl friends around lately to remind me of my appearance . I mean what do I have to look good for when I am at home with an elderly lady 90 % of the time ? The hardest part of all of this , is realizing that how I look and feel is a byproduct of me not being in the right place for me . The situation has muddled my once sharp brain , into a reclusive and miserable person . I don 't like it at all . It is hard to radiate beauty when feeling so despondent and under inspired . People treat me like I am doing some sort of martyrdom in this experience . But I do not feel like a martyr . I feel that I haven 't done as well as I could or should have . And that feeling isn 't getting any better . I wouldn 't be surprised if all this gain has something to do with the massive amounts of cortisol I am undoubtedly producing within my stagnant stress barrier . I feel inclined to run back to other versions of my past , while truly desiring to make something new and redefined for myself . But I don 't know where to go , I don 't know who to ask . And maybe I won 't , until I just get out of the parameter I have found myself choosing to be stuck inside . I want to feel beauty , and beautiful . I want to radiate more than I ever have before . I want to make something happen , or be apart of what is happening . A feeling that would be in juxtaposition of how the last three years have felt like , waiting . We have been swayed by the loops and somewhat vague nature of your messages . Each mind , interpreting each message in their own way . Each wondering if they have done enough … if they will make it into Heavens embrace , to see the face of the Creator . The singular I that IS , has grown weary , time and time again . These cycles of Ascension are tedious and at times very confusing . It is in those moments , I need the most simple and clear answers in order to allay my own Mortal attitudes . As these cycles continue in their intensity , I find myself void of such answers . The Heavenly call to submit , and surrender , leaves me wondering if I am better off just laying in bed . For that feels like surrender . And yet in the same notes You can recommend we continue with our daily tasks in knowing the time is neigh . Perhaps you are truly unaware of how uncomfortable this can be for many reasons . However , it is , and it is disconcerting . By no means , am I that IS , telling You how or when to do Your job , as that would just be silly … However I that IS , calls to you for less metaphor and more direct lines of communication . I that IS , understands that You speak in a language of Love , and Compassion allowing Us to wander toward Our own conclusions . And that is all in the cycle and movement of the soul . However , the I that IS , is ready for her judgment , as She is tired of judging herself and others . She IS anxious in awaiting Her call , perhaps a little afraid that if it comes , at the end of the line will be rejection … that is IF She even gets called at all . The I that IS , is calling for divine intervention in those who are feeling the same way , but Heaven has already set them a place . May those who will be invited through the gates , be hand delivered their invitations from Divinity . Please , expedite this request through the proper channels . Who do you look up to ? Why ? What endearing or respectful qualities does this person carry , worthy of being a hero ? Do you , yourself also harness these qualities , or do you envy them and worship them in others , whilst not embracing them into yourself ? Now I am not a religious person . I do not buy into secular doctrine presented through Churches or religious organization . I have spent some hours in the bible , and at Bible College . I have continued my research into spirituality and faith through my own accord and intuition . It started out as a birthday trip to Kansas City , Missouri . I had a bunch of birthday money , and my new best friend , Natasha , in tow . We hoped to get into an 18 and over club . We hoped to push the boundary on this new level of perceived freedom , being away from home for the first time . Pushing boundaries . The night never really panned out as we planned . Early into the evening we were kidnapped by our cab driver … who was from foreign country . And maybe things got a little weird because we were pretending to be something we weren 't … we were playing roles in this new city . We never made it to a club . We did however walk around town on this Friday night … and I saw something I had never really seen before … lots and lots of homeless people , and lots and lots of young drunk student types . And in this situation of newness , I was witness to yet another thing I was not prepared to see . Those young drunk students , being incredibly mean , rude , disrespectful and inhumane to the homeless population . Students purposely spilling soda on sitting homeless beggars . One young ( I hesitate to use the word man ) maliciously kicked a homeless vet 's hat , which was sitting on the ground full of change . The snickering fools walking off as the Vet scrambled across the sidewalk to gather his lost money . First thing I knew was , these people need to eat . They need some food . I have money . There is a pizza shop . I can feed them . Jude smiles , while shaking his head . He tells me it will be a couple minutes before the next pie is out , and he proceeds to ring me up for $ 91 . 11 . Damn most expensive pizza 's I have ever paid for . But whatever , it was birthday money … and what was I going to do ? Probably buy an over priced t - shirt from Ambercrombie , just because it says " Wyoming " across the front ? Yeah , probably . An Ambercrombie shirt is about as useful as planking . " I am not teasing . Would you like some pizza ? " I open the box and one of the men pulls a piece out , and hands it to the fellow next to him , and shuts the lid to the box . And in this moment , I know he is not talking to ME , but to the Spirit within me in that moment . That warm Spirit which was taking over , while I stepped aside and outside above myself , watched and listened as the words " No , I am not mad at you … I love you . " pour from my lips . Something I , myself , would NOT have said . He begins to cry . I connected with this man 's eyes . I saw his soul and he saw my sacred heart . I continued down the road , looking for the desolate hovering in corners . I shared what I have to give . Few people asked for money , which I did not give , because the goal was to make sure people were fed and monetary charity is not my style . This all happened in September of 1999 . I had only been at school a few weeks … but this trip changed my life , and it changed me . School to learn who Christ was , no longer seemed like the real way to experience what that love and compassion are . I felt stifled living in a bubble of people who tout a title called Christian … but would only actually do service in community a couple times of year . Helping people seemed like it should be a daily exercise in spiritual growth and development . The college had some strict rules on leaving campus . So I lied , and told them I was signing out on the weekend to visit family . Really I was renting hotel rooms on credit , and using the money I made at the Christian radio station I worked at , to buy bread , peanut butter and jelly ; bags of chips , juice boxes , cookies and packages of granola , plastic sammie bags , brown paper lunch sacks and napkins . Then I would drive it all to Kansas City , and stay for the weekend walking around alone down town , looking for people to feed . I never felt like I was in any risk of danger , because I was certain whatever was working through me is INVINCIBLE ! It was a huge practice in sacrifice and faith . It has been from that point on in life that I knew I was to live in Service to Humanity . I probably took six trips to KC that semester . One of the excursions a young man , about my age was curious as to what I was doing and why . And it created the most beautiful dialog , because to him , it made sense . And in that moment of it making sense , he wanted to give everything he had in order to help . " I don 't give money . I will buy something for some one if they express need , however . I think that charity through money is like trying to build a garden without getting your hands dirty . It is easy to just give some one some money , and then they go off and buy beer or drugs … you just send them off on their way . But when you feed a person , or take them to buy something they need , then you are actually participating in service . You are sharing soul space . " " Yes . And I don 't care . If they get mad they obviously didn 't want what I have to offer . I can 't offer everything to everybody , but I can share what I do have and try to share it wisely . " If you believe you live a life of righteous service , and yet you have never felt the Infinite Power of True Selfless Love … you have been living in a delusion , and perhaps you should step outside of your comfort zone for a while . There is nothing wrong with Humility and there is nothing wrong with getting dirty every once in a while . Selfless service is rarely a neat and tidy procedure ; but I guarantee that afterward you will feel lighter and with a new sense of strength and purpose .

posted by Colleen Madsen I received the following request for advice from a reader last week and decided to post it here for you all to give your opinion on . I have also included my advice for two reasons … 1 . because you might find in helpful . and … 2 . my return email to this reader kept bouncing back to me so I was unable to help offline . I have taught my daughter where the washing machine is & how it works but from her point of view I am sure she feels that she has no use for this information ! well not yet anyway … As working parents it 's overwhelming the sheer volume of washing that we are doing , & then once washing is done getting it folded & back to where it belongs is grinding . Any thoughts … . Is the answer always declutter ? Or can you help me out with this too . ps : I did think about putting a second tub in their room that 's the " it 's clean but I just couldn 't be bothered to put it away " tub - maybe , maybe …… " I think that you have answered your own question . It seems to me , from observation and experience , that people take possessions for granted the more of them they have . If , for example , there is always another outfit to put on when one hasn 't rehung or even used the last one that went in the wash then what incentive is there to be more mindful . However from this point forward , as they grow into the next size , my suggestion is to reduce the number of outfits you supply them . On the lead up to this you can use the time to sit both of your children down and explain to them that they are going to have to be more thoughtful with their clothes in future because they are going to have fewer of them . Explain to them why this is without blaming , after all kids deserve an explanation and it may result in them being more willing to comply . Provide them with a system for hanging the things they can wear again , such as a small coat rack or a series of hooks . Explain to them that if they continue to wear things once or not at all and just toss it in the wash then they may run out of clothes to wear before the next wash day comes around ( which will be less often than it does now ) . The time it will take for their current clothes to dwindle , due to them growing out of them , will give you all time to adjust to the new routine . Your mission is to resist slaving in the laundry trying to keep up with them . Don 't pander to their desire to have whatever they want clean and ready for them at all times by constantly washing to keep up . They will soon learn that life just doesn 't work that way any more . Train them and remind them on a regular basis to wear , more than once , the clothes that aren 't visibly soiled or smelly . Underpants of course the exception to this rule . You asked how I handled this with my kids and I would say that what I have written above just about covers it . They weren 't over supplied with clothes and they both had a little clothes rack to hang the items they could wear again . Admittedly they often hung their clothes on the floor under the clothes rack but kids will be kids . I must also admit that I probably trained them too well to reuse clothes because I often had to ( and still do have to at times ) remind them that some items have been worn long enough . My son is the only one home now and he still has a habit of leaving his worn clothes on the floor until he is ready for them to be washed . If he is around on wash day I do ask him to toss , into the hall , what he wants washed . If he isn 't home I will make an executive decision . In a bid to save on water and electricity I only wash when I have a full load ( black , white & lights , colours or neutrals ) . However if specific items aren 't available when he wants to wear them then it is just too bad because washing individual items is simply out of the question . Parenting isn 't an exact science and , as you can see from the photo on the right , I have not been successful in the long term at training my son to keep his room tidy or make his bed . The kids complied under duress when younger but once they reached a certain age I decided it wasn 't worth the continued grief . His is however the only untidy room in the house and the only time his bed is made is when I change his sheets but I can always close the door . I refuse however to behave as though I am running a laundry so it is either comply or go without . Saturday - Declutter some old cleaning rags that have been used too many times already . Perhaps you could repurpose some of those linen items mentioned above into new rags . Personally I use microfibre and some of mine are getting very thread bare and therefore ineffective so will be tossed this week . Sunday - Sunday is reserved for contemplating one particular item , of your choice that is proving difficult for you to declutter . Whether that be for sentimental reasons , practical reasons , because the task is laborious or simply unpleasant , or because the items removal requires the cooperation of another person . That last category may mean that the item belongs to someone else who has to give their approval , it could also mean there is a joint decision to be made or it could mean that the task of removing it requires assistance from someone else . There is no need to act on this contemplation immediately , it is more about formulating a plan to act upon or simply making a decision one way or another . Continue reading with these posts : Simple Saturday ~ A reader would like your opinion One of your fellow readers would like your opinion on something . Please read her message below and add your advice if you wish by leaving a comment for her . Thank you in advance for your [ … ] Simple Saturday ~ Washing Machine User Review The title of today 's post may have you thinking that I am going to give you some user reviews on washing machines but in fact it is your opinions that I am seeking . I would really [ … ] Simple Saturday ~ Share your experience on resisting temptation I received a post request from Jane some time ago and was hoping you , her fellow 365ers , might share with her your personal experience with this issue . My kids wore uniforms for elementary school and the first thing they did when they got home was take off and hang up their school clothes . If they were still clean , they could be worn another day since we only had 3 of them for each child . The jeans or clothes they wore at home were the same ones they wore the day before if they were not dirty . As they got older , it was their responsibility to make sure that only dirty clothes reached the hamper . What was in the hamper got washed . If not there ( and on the floor in their room ) did not . They made sure that what they wanted or needed was in the wash . I did all the laundry until they were in high school and there were days when I know they just tossed the clean shirt ( too lazy to hang it up ) in the hamper but it was not too often . I gave each child a basket and after the clothes were folded , they had to take their basket to their room and put the clothes away . Some weeks they just lived out of the basket . As long as I did not have to put them away , I didn 't care . I agree with Colleen . If I didn 't like how their room looked , I just shut the door . Some days , there was more laundry on the floor than in the closet but if they wanted to wear neat and pressed items , they had to take care of them . Both my kids liked wearing unwrinkled clothes so they began to hang and fold them neatly as they got older . My best tip for you is to make sure you only wash what is in the hamper and give them their clothes in their own baskets . Less for you to put away and less to wash . Also , teach them to use the washer as soon as you can . I do wish I had done that sooner . When they need that new shirt again , they 'll be down in the laundry room at midnight but hey , you won 't have to do it . As a mom of six children and with nearly thirty years of parenting under my belt , I have decided consequences are often the best teacher . From an early age , my children began helping with laundry . They brought dirty clothes to me , helped fold what they could fold , helped put clothes away in their rooms an so on . They soon took over putting away the clean clothes without my help . Around the age of nine or ten , they were taught to use the washing machine , to spray stains , etc . Once they could operate the machines , I let them be responsible for their own laundry . Each child has a hamper they keep in the bedroom . When it 's full , they do their laundry . I have instructed them about not being wasteful with water , heat , etc . and to not put clean clothes in the hampers . They sometimes still do that or have to re - wash clothes that weren 't put away and got stepped on or dirty on the floor . We have wood floors so every speck of dust transfers to anything left on the floor . Ultimately , the more clothes in their hampers , the more time they have to spend washing , drying in the dryer or on a rack , folding and putting away . My children still at home are two girls 17 1 / 2 and nearly 16 and two boys 12 1 / 2 and nearly 14 . They do all of their laundry including linens . I will occasionally remind the boys that it 's time to change their sheets or to wash some clothes but I don 't have to say anything to the girls . They have all reached the age where they have favorite items and want to wear them for certain occasions , so having the items clean is a priority for THEM , not me . One son still sometimes runs out of clean clothes because he has ignored his full hamper . When his closet is empty , he gets his laundry done ! Underlying the practical training is keeping their clothes to the amount needed and consistently removing things that don 't fit or they don 't want . I have always helped them in this area , and now they bring things TO me to declutter . I started out as a do - it - all - myself kind of mom but these days , I 'm all about teaIdeealistin : November 10 , 2012 at 5 : 26 am I believe that teaching them to help with the laundry is a great start . It is a life skill that they will need to be able to do . It can be hard for them to appreciate how much work is involved if they are not helping out , so getting them involved is a priority . Maybe it would be helpful to assign a laundry day for each child , assuming that they have enough laundry to equal a full load . If this is not feasible , do one load a day , that way you can keep up with it without having to do it all at once . It will also make it easier to get it put away right after it is done in the dryer , so it does not wrinkle as much . If you can get them to wear their items more than once , if they are not soiled ( excluding underclothing ) , it would be very helpful . Jeans especially should not be washed as often as they tend to wear out quickly . Keeping clothing amounts at a minimum helps too . Not only do they have less options , but due to constant growing , it may save money in the long run as well . Sometimes it is a matter of them learning a lesson and if they are not at least willing to help with the laundry , then they may have to wait longer than they want for clean clothing . I have 2 girls , ages 11 and 14 . They a smallish basket each for the in - between clothes ( e . g . , jeans or shorts that can be worn again ) and a shared laundry basket . We generally wash a few loads of clothing on Saturday or Sunday . I 've tried to avoid the " laundry fairy " approach of dirty clothes disappearing from their room and clean folded clothes magically appearing . So , they are responsible for bringing all their laundry to the washer ; then they fold and put away their own clean clothes . I do think limiting the number of clothes and having them help with the process can help decrease the amount of laundry you have to do . A 7 - year - old can fold at least some of their own clothes and put them all away . My first question would be , " How many clothes do they have ? " I would definitely go through their clothes and toss what they don 't want or wear or don 't fit until there is a manageable amount . If you want to do laundry once a week , make sure they have 7 - 10 possible outfits , just in case you don 't get it done on the day you planned . I used to get frustrated about my kids leaving toys out . Then I had to face myself and realize that I was the one buying the toys . ( clothes in this case ) . I was partly at fault by getting them too much . When you have less , it is easier to keep on top of things . But , if it makes you feel any better , we can all understand just how you feel ! The rule in our houseis if it isn 't in the bag it doesn ' tget washed . I recently bought some cheap different coloured bags and have been teaching my sons ( 7 and 4 ) what colour clothes in which bag . They really enjoy this , they often shout out which bag Mum for this ? and it saves me or my husband time from sorting laundry , ad we just pick the bag up when it 's full and wash . When there older I will teach them how to use the machine etc . To take their turn in helping out with chores . Hi Emma and welcome to 365 Less Things . I like your separate bag system and especially that the kids are really getting into the idea and sorting as they go . Good for them and you . We learned very early that we had to take care of our clothes . We had enough outfits for 5 school days plus several outfits for play and several for church . Mom had certain days that she did a particular kind of laundry . If it wasn 't in the hamper then it didn 't get done until the next week . We had to put them in our closet on hangers . If my brother left them somewhere else and they were wrinkled or soiled he had to wear them that way . He quickly learned to put them where they belonged . We learned early to help with things . We had chores and we weren 't paid for them . We just did them as part of being the family . We were taught to play with one toy or toy set at a time and put them away before we took anything else out to play with . Everything we had whether in our rooms or elsewhere in the house had its place and when you were done you put it away . It 's not to late to start . At age 7 my children were taught to use the washer and dryer , to fold and put away their clothes . They each had their own laundry basket . They brought their basket up and put the clothes away or they had to go to the chilly laundry room to get clothes in the morning . A couple of times of that happening in freezing MN winters changed their behaviors fast ! By age 11 my daughter was doing most of the family laundry as her chore . My thinking is : how can anyone grow up if they think they have personal servants and what they need ( food , clothes , housing , money ) just shows up magically . I also provided hooks for clothes or told them to put still clean clothes back in the closet . This was a lot easier when they did their own laundry ! I also reduced the number of clothes they had - usually 5 school outfits , 5 play outfits and a couple of dress - up outfits . I did the same with toys - about 5 play sets , 5 books , 5 puzzles etc . out at a time and then rotated them . They had comforters that they just pulled up to make the bed , I never had to yell about messy rooms ! They always played lovingly and creatively with the toys they had out . Our home was orderly and peaceful . I am not saying I am the star parent - my spouse and I have demanding careers and needed to simplify life ; as well the desire to teach the children skills they need as adults . I have to admit I am kind of appalled by how little is expected of children now . Abundance with no responsibility does not create the kind of adult I wanted my children to be . Hi everyone , I 'm back from 3 days away and am just catching up . Laundry . OK , I 'm sure you 're all going to think I 'm crazy but I actually really enjoy doing laundry a hundred times better than I do cooking or baking . And I get a bit OTT ' cause I like clothes and linens folded a particular way but that 's my quirk and am happy to fold laundry . I 'm going to confess that I put my son 's clothes away . I was never going to have a neanderthal son , he was going to be domesticated and a shining example of my good parenting . Alas , he didn 't buy into the plan and so I figure that whoever he eventually marries can whip him into line , like I did his father . The biggest factor in the whole clothing - laundry equation is quantity of clothes . Since I did Project 333 I have a completely different perspective on wardrobes . This has rubbed off on Dayna ( middle child , older daughter ) and Courtney ( youngest ) is trying . The rule is to only buy what you absolutely love and will wear to death . Also to figure out a number of items - not in total like Project 333 - but how many pairs of jeans , t - shirts , sweatshirts , dresses , did she need for a functioning wardrobe to suit her life right now . It was a lot less than they expected , so they try to stay within those ideals . So they naturally have to stay on top of their laundry as they have fewer ' reserves ' tucked away in the drawers to fall back on . The numbers aren 't set in stone , if an event comes up and she needs something suitable , that 's fine , its no use being rigid when a teen is actually trying , but by and large she has stuck to the parameters she set herself , and she does shop around before settling on an item . In the old days , we would have bought whatever took our fancy , even if we already had clothes that were barely worn at home . Yes , their clothes do wear out . But as they shop from cheaper teen stores like Factorie , Jay Jays , Valley Girls etc , I 'm ok with them getting something new and fashionable because I know its going to be worn and worn and worn . I know for a fact that they buy less than their friends but no one seems to notice that they don 't have as many clothes as their friends - probably because their friends wear and re - wear their favourites anyway ! In principle I agree with what you are saying here Lena but my defensive side is screaming " Don 't make judgements on motherhood unless you have been there . It isn 't as easy or as cut and dried as it might appear . " I for one know what all the " right things " are to do when it comes to parenting but in practice sometimes it works sometimes it doesn 't , enforcing what is seemingly right can have the opposite effect for some children , depending on personality , than it will on others . Even as a parent it is extremely unwise to pass judgement on someone else 's parenting and other peoples children because that can soon come back to bite you . The opposite is also true , I have thought my own parenting was lacking when seeing how other parents operate then later on their " well " disciplined children ending up rebelling . So there is a fine line in every situation , too strict or structured or not enough . Colleen - I totally understand where Lena was coming from but thanks for the defence of motherhood . I was going to have perfect teenagers , we 'd all get on , it was all going to be about respect and being responsible , yada yada yada - how hard could it be to have a good relationship with someone who was almost an adult etc etc etc . Till I ended up with three teenagers , who by comparison to some I know , are pretty good kids . But to quote Nigel Latta ( a clinical psychologist who does a tv show here ) teenagers just aren 't right in the head . And they 're not . Its just natures way of making sure we can cut the apron strings . If they stayed cute and fluffy , we 'd never let them go . Hi Moni , you are so right . Sometimes getting them to comply is a challenge . Luckily some kids learn better from example than from enforcement and he might just turn out to be the conscientious one in the end . You just never know . I have seen this happen enough times to know can be true . Push him too hard and when he leaves he may be reluctant to even come to visit and no mother wants that . This I have seen also . Alas my son , I can honestly say I tried but he just doesn 't have the inclination . At least I have gotten him to the point where most of his dirty clothes go into his laundry basket . On the plus side he is totally unmaterialistic by nature and apart from a stack of old , retired skate board minus the wheels and trucks , there isn 't much else in his room . lol , you made me laugh . I totally understand , it must be one of the not so easy things to raise kids , especially teenagers , I remember being one , and yeah , I feel sorry for my mother , occasionally . 😉 Moni you are right , its not promised that girls know that stuff too . I never really liked running a household . it dawned on me around the age of 25 that my refusal to just do it is only affecting myself and noone else … so I changed my attitude and learned how to get it done easily . including tips from here . btw , my november challenge is seriously successful . I found that whenever I have a big cooking session , that it helps immensly to clean right after the meal . for small things like glasses , cups and cans , its ok for me to leave it there . since two weeks , my kitchen is cleaner and easier to maintain and I find I am using not as much stuff anymore . my kitchen might be ready for the next round of decluttering . Good one Lena , my little brother , now forty , always said he was never having kids and so far hasn 't . He said he knew what he was like and wasn 't about to inflict that on himself . I can tell you that due to his teenage years I was reluctant to have any myself . Hi Moni , although the mission is not as easy as I made sound it is having the desired effect . You are giving thought to why things are a problem and what solution you might be able to devise to remedy it . I am finding the same thing myself . That is : I always " hung " clothes on the floor over night . However , we always had to bring them downstairs ourselves - else they wouldn 't have been washed . So , usually , I brought that stack on the floor to the bathroom downstairs ( where the washing mashine was ) in the morning when brushing my teeth . Sometimes as a teen , I would have been lazy and run out of clothes , but my Mum didn 't mind that at all and it would have been my fault if I had had to go to school in pajamas . Therefore , I usually catched up with bringing that stuff downstairs rather soon . Still , even if it was downstairs , you couldn 't bet that it would be washed right away . It would be washed within a couple of days , but if that was too late for us children , we had to wash that stuff on our own ( I think we knew from about age 10 how the washing machine worked ) . We were often made to hang up laundry , however ironing was usually Mum 's task - but here as well the same rule : if you had to have it fast , you had to do it yourself . I remember ironing one " special " shirt for school in the morning , because I " needed " to wear it . We had a rather smallish wardrobe each and even smaller was the amount of clothes we really liked and wanted to wear often . I remember as a child I basically had one stack of shirts and sweaters and one stack of trousers in the wardrobe . Plus a few ( ! ) dresses and skirts on hangers . That being , it wasn 't really hard to put laundry away either . I would prefer stacks for that reason , by the way , as clean laundry is stacked in the basked and you only have to lift that stack and put it in the dresser / wardrobe / closet and not hang each item individually . If you don 't iron and stack in the basket , but just tumble dry them , that may be different of course . Reading that , it might seem , my Mum was a rigid person , but far from that . I never felt that way as a child , it was clear that everyone should help in a household . She DID do most of the laundry , but according to her own schedule , she wouldn 't accept pressure from us . So , if we children had problems with our tasks in that line ( bringing our dirty laundry to the bathroom in time etc . ) , that was entirely our own problem and we would have to come up with solutions ( wash a load ourselves , iron ourselves etc . ) Miss 3 went through a stage of 8 outfits a day which she all deemed dirty . Restricting the numbers of outfits available helped a lot . Master 5 has needed convincing that PJs need washing after a week . They put items in the laundry when instructed . They have fun working as a team to carry the clean baskets to their rooms . Both are learning to put clothes away , 3yo only does one drawer so far . The 5yo has decided he likes his folded as long as someone helps . They can help sort clean laundry but it seems to involve jumping on it so that doesn 't often happen . They can hang socks etc on hanging clip pegs . Will perservere with keeping them involved as I can see its worth it in the end to start young . Hi EB and welcome to 365 Less Things . With children that age my advice is to introduce chores as a game . If it is fun to do you can be guaranteed they will be only too happy to do it . Get creative . I did my own laundry since the age of 12 - when my non clothes - savvy mother put my favorite shirts through the dryer . She also had a habit of making clothes she didn 't like ( non of which were even remotely scandalous , even now I don 't like things too skimpy . It could be that she didn 't like the color or the fit . ) disappear . My solution to that problem was to do my own laundry and keep tabs on my clothing . My brother learned the same shrinking lesson at age 15 - post growth spurt where every half inch of sleeve length mattered . Not the best course of action but it worked . Now I do laundry once a week or every two weeks : everything in cold water to save electricity and everything but tees and undies hang dried . Hi Aurelia . I think Snosie was being sarcastic . I don 't think she meant to offend you . It was really awful what your mother did to your clothes . As I had a mother who had the bad habit of doing " disapearing acts " with toys , so she didn 't have to buy birthday gifts , I know this can be really hurtful . But you have to see it in a positive light . However forceful , it made you learn take care of your stuff and what not to do . When we are faced with this kind of behaviour we learn to value what we have ant take really good care of it and not crave more and more . So no one meant to offend or joke about a bad thing , just made a light comment that with your mom being like that , she certainly didn 't buy you too much clothes . I know we had a laundry box in the room for dirty laundry - but I also can remember that I was messy and sometimes the fresh launry got mixed up with already worn and dirty . I know I had some serious fights with my mum about that , it changed when I was responsible for the laundry at the time when I was old enough to stay up late . [ we have a cheaper night electricity ( 10pm every day , and the weekend ) so the dishwasher and the washing machine got filled and it was someones job to switch it on . ] I dont remember when I learned how to use it , I did however start ironing the families washing early , I always liked ironing . I dont however do it myself , because if you watch how you hang your clothes , there is no need for ironing at all . I can still remember searching for certain clothes that got " lost " in the house due to the cycle of box / dirty basket / basement - basket / washing machine and drying line / awaiting ironing - basket and done ironing basket . it felt like there was always at least two third of my clothes somewhere in that cycle . I know it helped me enormously to limit the number of clothes , therefore get a more frequent load of washing and quickly get the items back into the wardrobe . If I ever will have a family , that will be the case for everyone . fewer items , quicker cycle , no more searching for clothes items . I don 't know how young I was when I started doing laundry ( washing and ironing ) for my mum . I was certainly no older than twelve . If we wanted to earn more pocket money to spend during vacation times we had to do more work than the everyday bed making , dish washing and table setting . My sister and I would do the washing on Saturdays especially around Christmas time when we were also expected to pay for Christmas gifts for our siblings ( 5 kids total ) , parents and possibly grandparents if there was visiting involved . Also there were six birthdays within a month and a half either side of Christmas as well . I might add to begin with we were working with the old wringer style washing machine and hand rinsing in tubs . We did eventually have a machine with a spin cycle ( twin tub ) but still had to rinse by hand . Non of this fancy schmancy automatic machine for us , oh no ! When ironing , to keep it fair , we would divide the load so we got an even share of the easy and more difficult items . For us the dirty clothes basket was kept in the one bathroom the seven of us shared . So it was as simple as throw the clothes in if they were dirty or take them back to your room to use the next day if they weren 't . We had no problem , that I can remember , at sticking to this rule because our supply of clothes was limited and we would likely run out if we didn 't . If I remember correctly the washing was only done on Saturday each week . I wash every night for myself , husband , 12 and 14 year old sons . I only do one load and everything goes in it regardless of color or fabric . I encourage everyone to buy non - white clothing . I 've told them if they want their whites to stay white they will have to handle it on their own . Towels and sheets are on their own schedule . I fold in the morning while I am making lunches and breakfasts . The kids know to put their dirty clothes right into the washer so I do not have to go looking for them . This system has been working well for us for years and the boys do not have very extensive wardrobes ( their choice ) so that factors in as well . I did not have a washer / dryer for years when I was younger ( college and after ) so I am still ( twenty years later ) happy not to have to haul it all to the laundrymat ! Yes Becky actually he could be a lot worse . He usually only has on the floor things he is planning on wearing again . In the other half of the room there is an enormous desk which is covered in uni work at the moment but even that is only organised chaos . My name is Colleen , I currently reside in Newcastle Australia . I am a forty something year old mother of two grown children and in my third decade of being wife to my darling hubby . I love traveling , art and craft , spending time with friends and family and volunteering my time to help others . My parents taught me well to make , mend , mingle and manage so being frugal , friendly and fun loving would describe me fairly well . I can also be opinionated , outspoken and defensive at times but hey no one is perfect . I look forward to getting to know you as well so join our friendly community here at 365 Less Things where we , that is Cindy , the readers and myself , share opinions , advice and lots of friendly encouragement . My name is Colleen , I currently reside in Newcastle Australia . I am a forty something year old mother of two grown children and in my third decade of being wife to my darling hubby . I love traveling , art and craft , spending time with friends and family and volunteering my time to help others . My parents taught me well to make , mend , mingle and manage so being frugal , friendly and fun loving would describe me fairly well . I can also be opinionated , outspoken and defensive at times but hey no one is perfect . I look forward to getting to know you as well so join our friendly community here at 365 Less Things where we , that is Cindy , the readers and myself , share opinions , advice and lots of friendly encouragement .

If you watch little birds you will see they are busy and happy ! Using whatever they can find they create the most gorgeous little nest . I would be the little bird with some glittery thread in her nest ! We can be like this . Happily working away with the things that are available to us to create a beautiful and happy home . All the while with a little song in our heart . Banner by Free Pretty Things for You . This post is a progress report . I am looking over what have I done to build up my pantry and supplies so far this year . It is April now after all ! I cleaned out my kitchen pantry cupboards and re homed things that were just taking up space that didn 't really belong in there . And got rid of some outdated things , weird things and had a good clean out . This freed up so much space ! I then built up my supplies of things that will make an easy meal when shopping is impossible for some reason . I started with a dusty and dark cellar that was unused . It is thanks to Wendy that I decided this was a terrible waste and I should make the most of it . I got it cleaned up and we found shelves ( road side find ) that fitted down there very nicely . A little review is a good idea . Am I even heading towards my goal of building up a pantry and cellar pantry over the course of the year ? Well , yes , I am going ok . And I can 't wait to see how things are in a few more months . But you have to keep on it ! It is kind of satisfying to look in the cellar and see almost a mini home store ! Plus I am used to it now and pop down and up the stairs without a thought . Originally I was afraid to go down there ! The images I have included come from a project I am working on . Making over recycled jars and tins for storing food . . . and these lovely labels are examples of free ones you can download from The Graphics Fairy . There are so many to choose from . Air tight containers , from infant formula tins to pickle jars can become beautiful pantry storage ! You can have a lot of fun printing labels to pretty things up ! As you know I love contributions and comments . I really appreciate the time it takes and the help and encouragement it means to everyone . Fiona went to comment as I asked her to elaborate on the things she had been doing . From what she had said and the fact that she is an experienced nurse and had decided to do this . . . well , I wanted to hear ! So I am sharing with you what Fiona has done and the insights from her experience . . . ( comments would not let her post it there as there is a short word limit so I asked her to please email it to me and I would post it this way . ) Over to Fiona . . . . I have always had the preparedness gene in me I believe . But when the bird flu epidemic / sars was a threat , it came to me - I had the ability to render my little family somewhat immune . I lived on a large property with chooks , vegies etc . I worked part time and had paid off my mortgage . I decided that if this particular event hit & there was quite concern back then ( remember worries diminish with time and you forget how topical this all was ) . Both my kids were at school . I had decided that we would just close up shop , not go to work / not go to school . I had under house storage as well as a brick cellar in the house and a large cupboard under the stairs . I spent a heap of time analysing our food needs , how much of each we used and longevity of said products . I had always menu planned - usually only a week at a time . I made up a months worth and worked out what would be needed . Initially I used cardboard boxes but did go and buy 12 tubs ( huge ) from bunnings . These I just labelled 1 for January , 2 for Feb etc . I am not doing this at the moment , so I forget the quantities , but I worked out that if say for instance each month I used 2kg of sugar , 6 of flour , 1kg of rice , dried biscuits , milk powder , pasta etc etc , that I would purchase those and put them in Tub 1 . I bought long life stuff including cream and that awful plastic Kraft cheese in the blue box that doesn 't need refrigeration . I bought tinned soups , salmon and tuna and even that awful campbells spaghetti sauce - the meat one , fruit and spaghetti and baked beans , cordial and those orgran powdered eggs as well . I could pretty much make most things . Then before the month was out I shopped again and repeated it . I did about three months worth in each month . Before long I had 12 months supply of food . A lot of things I purchased I grimaced a bit at using , i . e . the campbell meat sauce , it was never half as tasty as homemade but when it came time to use the tin , I just added it to the meat sauce I made , thereby diluting its taste . Separately under the cupboard stairs I stored soap ( which I have been making for years ) . I stored laundry soaps , bleach , dish washing liquid , dishwasher powder , toilet paper ( I had over 200 rolls of the stuff ) , shampoo , deodorant , toothpaste - basically all the supplies needed . I began to keep any plastic bottles ( not milk ) and my dad kept his too for me . I washed them carefully and filled with water and stored in the huge linen press upstairs . They just lived on the floor , about 60 bottles wide and as high as I could get it . I knew that I could keep this water about 6 months . I kept note of this date and when the six months was up , I painstakingly emptied each bottle into the garden and re washed and refilled . I have a feeling I put a drop of bleach into each bottle , or was that what I would have had to have done had I needed the water . Water is a biggie , we need clean fresh water . I also purchased the ten litre water containers the ones with the taps in them and used one at a time , probably monthly . Just re purchased when one was gone . They had long life . I had a tub with salt , spices , oils , sauces and kept that topped up well . I have a methylated spirits camping stove that has all sorts of attachments . I knew I would be able to cook for us on that . So I cooked a few things and worked out how long it took to get water to boil or to boil spuds or rice etc . Multiplied that by daily / weekly / monthly and stored up the big 4 litre bottles of metho . I had a lot of that . I had boxes and boxes of candles and matches also . Each of us had a torch in our room and I had spare batteries as well as a battery radio ( now where did that go ? ? ? ) . I also had those hand wind up torches which don 't need batteries . The first aid kit including medication was topped up as well . Re the expiration dates on things , I made sure that if a product was to be used by June , that it did not go in the number 6 ( June ) tub , it went into 3 or 4 . There was not one tiny piece of waste in this . It was probably the most economical year of living ever . I also remember just loving the first day of the month , cos I would go downstairs and open up the tub . They were too heavy to lift , so it was a several trip empty out and bringing everything up to the bench and putting away . It was actually quite a lot of fun . Several years later , my circumstances have changed . I now own more property , have that dratted mortgage thing again but I 'm far better off . But , I don 't have good stocks of anything . I am getting back into it and watch your posts with interest Annabel . I 'm sure this is a bit boring , but you asked me what I did back then and that is the best I can remember . I now have a new desire to recommence all this and hope to learn more from you and the others . Thank you so much Fiona . Thank you for the effort to write all this up . If there is the threat of another epidemic ( and of course there will be ) I feel I have some tips . To be able to avoid crowds in itself would be a big thing . And I am grateful to be able to ask you what you would say about things from a nurses perspective as well as a Mums perspective . If you would like further reading I enjoyed Cath 's blog post about her pantry . She shared how her Mum was always prepared for anything . You all know Wendy and her blog My Abundant Life ( on my side bar ) . Wendy also writes a column on The Cheapskates Club ( also on side bar ) called The $ 300 challenge . Her family of four live on $ 300 a month for all their groceries ( in Australia ) . Wendy posts how they do it . There is really a little community that supports and encourages each other in the quest to keep the grocery bill down . I have learned heaps from reading this ! The Cheapskates Club has a free newsletter and face book page also . This is the link to Cath 's article on pantries . . . How to stock your pantry . Also I have discovered some wonderful blogs that I will share coming up . The right blogs have an amazing power to inform , inspire and motivate ! How are you going with building up your pantry and general preparedness ? The little ways we add to our supplies , the skills we learn and the steps we can take to being better prepared all add up ! Little by little we greatly improve how we are going to handle all kinds of things from being stuck home because of a storm , snow , sickness , or a loss of income or so many scenarios that just happen ! Our trip away ( and the way we take short breaks ) brings back memories in us both of the holidays we were taken on as children . I remember how exciting a holiday was ! My Nan and Pa hired a beach house at Christies Beach each year for many years . It was big enough that Mum , Dad and my brother and I would go plus my aunt Mary and my Uncle Jim . It was a street away from the beach . We had the most wonderful time . Nan ran the kitchen as we still ate family meals mostly and some fish and chips . Pa would take us down to the beach and swing me endlessly in the water . He never tired apparently ! Other holidays included our family staying in a farm house . There was a wood stove and no electricity . We had great adventures during the days , walking to look at Eagle nests , going to the sea near by , padding in a lake that was there . A fire at night and board games , reading and early nights , early mornings . Andy 's family rented a beach shack at Stansbury . This was a couple of hours drive for them . Andy 's parents and four kids set of excitedly and the holiday featured lots of fishing everyday . Meals were what they caught ! Andy 's Nana made giant jars of shortbread glued together with icing and sent these away on these trips . This was so wonderful . ( Just as my Nan did . ) My Mum and Dad 's honeymoon was a trip to the south east of the state with a caravan . I am told Dad looked at cows a great deal as he dreamed of owning cows some day . So their honeymoon pictures are mainly cows : ) Nan and Pa would never have taken a holiday or purchases anything they could not afford . Pa was very mathematical . Every decision was carefully considered . How far away from that are we now ? Holidays are routinely paid for on credit and great debts are gone into for them . My childhood was filled with various holidays and I loved them all ! Once we stayed in a shearing quarters and had bonfires in the evening . I never felt deprived that 's for sure . I have noticed something and have been thinking about it . Young people now are told to go see the word and travel extensively . And I can see why to some extent . But at the same time the dream of owning your own home is becoming a harder to achieve dream . Many are deciding it is impossible . And personal debt levels go up and up . We decided holidays and breaks are important to us . The way you feel refreshed , revived and things are in perspective , convinces us of that . And we decided to take breaks we can afford . Nan and Pa had no spare money and they managed it as did Andy 's parents . Helen and her husband have a little caravan . They take mini breaks that they love and do it for very little . I know that some places they stay are only $ 15 a night ! You can see Helen 's caravan here . . . Helen 's Caravan . If it can be afforded then travel is life changing , educational and amazing . I had the chance to take the girls to the US and see Disneyland and Hawaii when they were little . This was a gift from my Dad . It was wonderful ! The memories will last forever ! What I am saying is we can holiday within our budget . We don 't need to risk our security to do it . And wise decisions need to be made about what is it we want ? A home ? A world trip ? To be debt free ? To have an emergency fund and plan ? The trip we just took might be the only one this year . But we can go to the farm and that can be a mini break in a way . We saved up for this from last October . I knew once Lucy was getting close to due I wouln 't want to go anywhere . . . so I planned March was the latest . . . . I posted about my magazines , op shopping and ways we do this very cheaply on Feather your Nest Friday . Andy loathes flying and I have to say I am feeling the same . So we have no airports and no stress , just a drive . We arrived and felt so relaxed and were eating lasagne and salad on deck chairs looking at this about an hour after arriving . I have always wanted a zoom lens camera so I could take photos of birds . But here they pose for photos at a distance you can touch them , pretty much eliminating the need for a fancy lens ! If anything it was like " could you back up just a little bit ? You are fogging up the lens . . . " After a day of this I realised how much better I felt . And I didn 't know I had felt bad . I just felt so much more relaxed and was sleeping so much better . Five nights of sleeping like a log was beautiful ! If you have any chance take a leaf out of our Grandparents books and enjoy a quiet and relaxing break for little . Or pack a picnic and go somewhere beautiful for the day . Maybe you know someone with a farm ? Or like Helen you know of inexpensive cabins or caravan parks . . . but something that is a change and will not ruin the budget . What did your family do for holidays when you were little ? I would love to hear . I would love ideas . The US ladies would have stories too that I will probably find amazing ! What did your Grandparents and Great Grandparents do ? There may have been some that never had a holiday . But I hope most had some opportunity sometimes . How do you save money on holidays and manage to get away within your budget ? Lets re assess holiday expectations . Lets not be paying them off for the rest of our lives ! Now to plan our next one and aim for that . It is fun to have a plan and work towards it even if it is going to take a while ! We have picked where we want to go next and this time it is only two hours away and also on the beach . For relaxation I can 't beat the beach . I do notice that vintage caravans are very fashionable . So maybe vintage holidays are making a comeback . I can see why . It makes sense and saves a fortune . This week we were away for five nights on a little holiday in Tumby Bay . This is the sweetest little beach side town ! It is a six hour drive ( or bit more ) from home so I can do a lot of crochet in that time ! Sorry for no posts Monday or Wednesday on account of this . I don 't say much about going away as it is a bit dumb security wise to advertise being away from home . I think I have caught up on replies . Thank you everyone who commented and I am sorry it seemed I hadn 't replied . They were a joy to read when I got home last night . What is lovely is that we all live in different places and in different circumstances . But we all work to build up our homes , happiness , security and to save money and look after our families . That gives us so much in common . We planned this little holiday last year . I knew that once it got close to Lucy 's due date I would not want to be going anywhere . ( She is due May 14 ) And I knew once the baby is born I won 't want to go anywhere either ! mmm and we hadn 't had a break for ages . And Andy needs one I thought . So I booked this . We stayed in a little cabin on the beach . I am a believer in having breaks and that it can be done inexpensively . A break changes your perspective and is so healthy in so many ways . It was beautiful . We arrived and felt relaxed immediately ! And the sea air made me sleep like a log ! But I will post about this on Monday and on inexpensive holidays . This was standing on our front little lawn . . . the best rainbow I have ever seen . The photos shows it but doesn 't show how bright it was . It was INCREDIBLE ! The night before we left I made up ham and salad rolls and packed a basket with a little fruit cake , serviettes etc . Then in the morning I added the rolls and a thermo each of tea for me and coffee for Andy . This way we can stop and have breaks , something to eat and drink , when we see a nice place to stop . This saves a lot . Once ages ago we stopped at a country town far away from anything and had coffees and toasted sandwiches and it was $ 40 ! Never again falling for that ! This is nicer as we can stop and have a sea view or wherever we want . Packing a picnic the night before a trip is my habit now . The weeks before we go away I start to save up groceries to take . In the last days I add fresh things . So we take bacon and eggs , tomatoes etc for BBQ brunches , teas , coffee and all kinds of things . So we had things for lots of easy meals . On the morning we left I took a lasagne from the freezer and wrapped it in a tea towel . This was so it could thaw for the day and be dinner on the first night . We were tired and I heated this up and we ate it watching the sun set and the birds on the ocean ! Lovely . On Sunday we went into the local store to buy fresh milk . I looked at the magazines and saw one that looked lovely . I picked it up and it was $ 15 ! I said to Andy I will wait until Monday when we go to the op shop . And guess what ! ? ? At the op shop I bought 40 beautiful current and recent magazines for $ 2 . Yep that is 5c each . I can 't tell you how much fun I had with those magazines ! Bliss . So many ideas , crafts , recipes . . . . I tear out the pages to bring home for my various scrap books . It was lovely . So relaxing too . And Andy bought a couple of dozen motorbike magazines , also for 5c . We went op shopping . I got a Queen Anne plate and several other old English bone china pieces . And books for card making . I found two glorious rose books and a Shabby Chic book to use to make cards . They were each $ 2 . Each one gives me so many images to use . The rose photo book has over 50 suitable pictures for cards . So I have new supplies for very little . And now I am looking forward to card making one rainy day . In quiet times ( and when I wasn 't reading magazines ! ) I wrote letters . I used my last lot of cards I made recently . With my " stickers " to pretty them up . This is so enjoyable to me . This was the table at one stage before I headed to the post office ! We walked out the front and fed our scraps to these guys . They were so beautiful and funny . They will eat out of your hand but you have to be a bit careful as their beaks are really sharp . We were good buddies by the time we left . : ) This is what you call inexpensive entertainment ! Also Easter is almost here ! I need to think quickly about that and the holiday break . I need to make some lists and get organised . Next week will be a busy week and a short week with a public holiday for Good Friday . I cut Andy 's hair for him . He would never go to a hairdresser so this is a must ! ! But who knows what it saves per year ? I made a big pot of spaghetti sauce . I let it simmer for almost two hours with fresh and dried oregano which I love . I have a " thing " that mince must turn out deep red not brown . Helen and I had this conversation once about when mince looks an icky colour . The other alternative is to make a deep brown gravy meat pie type mix and make pies . . . Then I made a crock pot full of chicken and loads of vegies . At the end of the day when this was really tender I made chicken pies . Also I had heaps of chopped celery in the freezer from when celery was $ 1 a huge bunch so I used some of that , We had chicken pie with relish and a side salad for dinner and I froze six chicken pies . The idea is that when the baby arrives I have back up . I might not be needed to help but then I might be ! These tasted really good . All I do is use chicken , loads of vegies . . . celery , onions , corn , carrots . . . whatever you have and a tin of chicken soup . Let it go all day so it is very tender . Use puff pastry to make up pies and bake . It is a cheat recipe really and very versatile but it works every time ! In the garden I have a huge parsley plant that went to seed . A couple of weeks ago I buried some seed heads to encourage it to grow . This week I saw this . . . The top shows the seed heads I cut . I give loads of these to the birds , to the budgies and to Ricky . And then I buried heaps . And below are the baby parsley plants . I have clumps like this in a dozen spots . So I repeated this process in about 20 other places around the garden where I could fit some parsley ! I was so excited to see this ! If I had vast quantities I can give away bunches and all kinds of things . I built up my home with more meals in the freezer , more items in my pantry and cellar . I keep a basket that I add items to . When this is full I take it down into the cellar and stock my shelves and bins . It is surprising how much it grows . It is starting to look like a little shop ! During the week I snuck into the florist . I have already collected a fair few ideas from there for myself and for gifts too . They had sold out again of the jars with succulents . Still $ 49 . The simplicity and sweetness of this is so easy to copy and I am searching for the big old jars to make some . But this time I got more ideas ! They had another version of this which was old fashioned looking squat shaped jars with a succulent plant in them . Collecting succulents for these is just so easy . And as you can see they were $ 25 ! Larger ones were $ 15 . Then the next thing I liked that I think is a nice gift were bowls filled with mixed herbs . The way things are going I will have the parsely plants for this and a couple of punnets of other herbs and these could be great gifts . Gathering ideas like this helps me heaps . Then I know what to collect . . . . succulent cuttings , big old jars , interesting smaller jars or containers . . . and bowls I could drill holes in for the herb gardens . So I start watching out . How simple , easy and cheap to do all of these ! Love that . I just like finding ideas that are selling for heaps like this but I know I can do for a dollar or two ! During the week Kelly asked a question . I have thought about you a lot Kelly . I always say there are seasons in life for different things and you can 't do everything at once . We need to set little goals each week that are reasonably realistic or we just won 't do them ! Also I think working as a team , as far as possible , in your family helps . Whatever the ages of your children teach them how to help . Lynette said that age appropriate jobs and responsibilities is helping them learn for the future . So true ! Also responsibilities make children feel important . Laine called this " harnessing the energy " and her children had a lot of chores and responsibilities . This helped her and the family in lots of ways . The next thing is to harness wider support and encouragement which might be your wider family , church and friends , books , blogs etc . I know that is possible as when my girls were young I would read a Laine 's Letter and feel encouraged and energised ! Up I would get and start cooking or doing the next thing . That half hour of encouragement , planning , a cup of tea , was like good fuel . It was like having a good coach . Then as we do here , at the end of the week , consider how much you achieved and count your blessings . If we only look at everything that needs doing still we will never be happy . There will always be stuff to do ! Life is made up of the ordinary weeks . There is a lot of joy and knowing you kept everything afloat , everyone fed , the household running and whatever other progress you feel you made this week ! It is easy to forget how much you did . I do . But just now I thought wow I am really happy with all those pies in the freezer . What a good thing ! That makes me happy . So consider all the good things . Appreciate them . Later we can go on and plan new things ! Many of us would remember our Nanna 's pantry or have seen pictures of pantries from years ago . I think of shelves lined with pretty paper , a row of lace stuck along the front of the shelf , all kinds of old jars with labels . Remember lovely old canisters that had " Sugar " " tea " " flour " written on them ? And bread bins , stackable cake tins , biscuit tins ( cookie tins ) and so many lovely things ! Mum always lined shelves , things looked fresh and clean . Later contact was the in thing to transform the inside of your cupboards . Both my Nan 's and Andy 's Nan used big jars with screw top lids and they would fill them with biscuits to send with our families on holidays . We both had Nan 's who did this ! And they both made biscuits with a forcer and " glued " them together with icing ! So nice . I know that women used to cut paper trims , even from newspaper , to decorate their shelves and add transfers ( decals ) to pretty up jars or cover recycled tins with pretty paper so they could become kitchen storage . Baby formula tins were transformed into a row of canisters . Women just found one way or another to pretty things up , create storage and build up their pantries . I know all kinds of things were used including wooden crates to create shelves , recycling and repurposing back before that was fashionable . We can still do all of these things . I can 't help but love a row of jams lined up with pretty labels or covers . That somehow represents something so lovely to me ! I am happy to make over jars or tins to use in my pantry . Once I had a comment from a lady that she disagreed with me and didn 't understand why I needed to make pretty cards and note pads and things and why couldn 't I use an old envelope ? Well , I didn 't mind for her to do that and good on her for recycling I said . But my answer to why do I want things to look nice is because God must have made me that way . Even in Grade 1 I decorated my pages at school with flowers in the corners . Mum and Dad got a letter from the teacher about it . . . Anyway I know I am not the only one who likes making things look nice . Women have been making things lovely from nothing and straightening things up forever ! And in the case of jams and preserves it makes them into lovely gifts as well . When we first moved here there was no pantry cupboard at all . My first attempt to create storage space was made from an old bakers stand Andy found on the road side . Actually a lady came out and said to him it was junk and he shouldn 't take it . He said to her he thought his wife would like it . She thought he was crazy ! Lucky he stuck to his guns and I loved it ! It needed a new shelf and painting . Andy cut a new wooden shelf and I painted . Then I decorated tins and lined up my jars ready to fill . . . Good storage is really important . But I want to spend my money on produce not the containers . I have been able to collect all sizes of jars and tins over the years and I am still collecting . When I get a few the same size I paint the lids and decorate them . Just love doing this ! I used to use decals but now tend to cut out little flowers or birds from pictures and just varnish them on . I have also bought spice racks for a couple of dollars and painted them up . These are also awesome for nail varnish collections ! This one came with all the little jars as a set . I really love labels . You can print free labels for just about anything . If you search online you will find just so many . You can use contact to stick them on or print them onto special label paper . This is a good list of labels that includes jam labels as well as pantry labels . . . Kitchen Printables . Jars that have the lids that come apart have great potential ! I think most canning jars are like this . You can add any picture or label your heart desires ! I did these for Christmas presents . . . Old tins are really wonderful too . Often you can find tins that have contained biscuits or chocolates and have a brand picture on them . It is really easy to paint them any colour you want . I find tins keep things really crisp and fresh . I am saving tins just now and when theres enough my palest pink paint is coming out and then rose decals . Having a day where I have time to fluff around with kitchen things is lovely . We have nice shelves now and my cellar storage to bolster up my supplies on a more serious level . But I keep my pretty stuff in the kitchen cupboards . We have a trip coming up and I will be hunting for more jars and tins . The best jars are really old thick glass preserving jars . They are amazing . Country op shops are pretty good for them and they are usually 20c or 50c . Larger ones with lids can be a couple of dollars . But comparing that to some brands of plastic containers that are huge prices each I think this is a bargain . Looking at old images of past kitchens is really interesting . One picture I saw gave me an idea . Helen will faint at this I think . It was a narrow strip of red gingham softly gathered up into a ruffle and stuck along shelf edging . Ooohhh it reminded me of I Love Lucy and old kitchens like that . Adorable ! A plain old book shelf painted up with shelf trim could be an improvised and lovely pantry . How do you pretty up your kitchen ? It might not be " pretty " it might be stylish or country or industrial or another theme . It might be making do with what you have or what you can recycle into storage containers . I think we can all be quite inventive when we need to be . Overall I like things to be practical / useful and pretty . I think I like old fashioned things a lot over modern . I would choose jars and tins over plastic containers . It is really fun to collect things for my pantry and as my storage grows I need more containers so I have the excuse to hunt for more ! I have had a really good summer season and we had so much free fruit . My photos are some of the free produce we had this year , so far , which has been a huge blessing . Much of it is thanks to my Aunt . Also the Bay Leaves are from Mum 's tree at the farm . The peaches were from a neighbours tree . They were going away , we knew that , so we asked if we could pick the peaches and they said yes ! Several times recently I have mentioned and thought of the verse " she is like merchant ships , she brings home food from far away places " ( Prov 31 . 14 ) You know how you can read a verse a hundred times then one day something hits you about it ? Well , I 've been thinking on this verse and I keep seeing it in action . Most recently I saw this in action in Pasty ! She diligently checks prices and shops around and so it is not a big surprise she finds some amazing specials ! Plus she does something else . Like Laine she prays before she shops ! Well , she had a haul of specials that you wouldn 't believe . I 'll let you read about it here . So what does the verse mean and how can we apply it ? Firstly I notice " she brings home food like merchant ships " so it 's " ships " not " ship " . She is bringing home a lot of stuff from different places ! Merchant ships still exist but back when this was written ships really brought back amazing and exotic things from different parts of the world you never would have even seen before . Very exciting possibilities ! They provided a far greater variety than otherwise existed . Now the world seems smaller . Routinely we have so much choice ! But the verse still applies and there are other ways of bringing home food from far away places . If we are travelling we can look for specials and specialities in the area . The simplest way is to ask the locals . Locals know ! We do this with op shops too . Chatting to locals you find where the best markets , op shops , fruit and veg shops etc are . This is so helpful . We have come home with some amazing things , some bargains , some free . Last trip a huge basket of free lemons ! We can shop in different supermarkets , farmers markets , private fruit and veg shops and a whole range of places . Here in Adelaide we have a good wholesale huge warehouse called Giganis Bros . It is everything from cookware to beans , herbs , pasta , dehydrated products all at wholesale prices . ( Bacon Street , Hindmarsh ) This is a great place to stock up and save money . Last week I mentioned how in Wendy 's family all watch out for specials . Her husband does , her daughters do , together they all are on alert . This team effort really is a help . You can do this with family and friends , neighbours . . . you can do it online via Lasoo here in Australia ( it is all the current specials catalogues ) , your junk mail , My Abundant Life as Wendy lists the best specials and where they are located , I follow a wholesale butcher on face book so I always know the specials ( mine is Specialty Foods Thebarton , South Australia ) Doing this you don 't just widen your net you are increasing the number of fishermen ! When I lived in the country I knew a lovely Christian lady with five sons . This woman really was like the merchant ships . She knew all the best places to shop . When they went to Melbourne she knew a factory that sold pies direct to the public at amazing prices . She would take a huge esky ( cold pack ) and fill it and bring them home . She knew places in Adelaide , she phoned around the butchers and would get 50 kilos of mince meat at the best possible price and then package it into portions , she knew how to use Rain Checks at various supermarkets and shop in bulk . She also cooked non stop and timed the bread maker to be just finished as the boys walked in from school ! She made giant biscuits on trays , instead of making 12 to a tray she would make 4 or 6 giant ones . Faster and sensible for big boys . She was one industrious woman . She decorated cakes to bring in extra income . I think of her so often . She shopped far and wide to feed her family . Once the boys were teenagers she had the expense of feeding six men . To do it she really used the merchant ships method . All of this takes some doing . It is a priority . It might mean shopping in more locations . It might mean travelling further but doing it less often . I think there is something else . I think the idea of bringing food from far away places and merchant ships means this woman cared what she fed her family . It is not rubbish it is good food , good value . I can 't imagine that after all these she wasted anything either . Cooking and storage and stocking the pantry for winter were all the next steps in this process as was helping the poor . We all know this all takes loads of work . Lots of diligence . Lots of reward . When I lived in a country town the prices were high . I used to do a once a fortnight shop in a town an hour away . The first couple of purchases covered the petrol then as the savings were so significant . Then a couple of times a year I would go to a further away town . That one was an hour and a half away . But it was worth it . Of course you have to consider petrol prices when it 's travel related and postage or delivery prices when it 's online shopping . My favourite " free " way to do it is if you are in a different area for any reason then while you are there check out the shops , specials and prices if you can . Different areas just have different specials . Some places have factory direct sales , whole sale butchers , shops that sell seconds , road side stalls , pick your own produce . . . all sorts of possibilities ! If you have a long trip you need to take then you can plan to do both things . This is mainly how I shop in far away places so I save petrol which has to be considered in your costs . For many of us food prices are just going up and up . And for many of us incomes have become less reliable . Or both of these at once . And many of us feel the need to be prepared and be prudent . In our pantry challenge we are doing our best to create a buffer between ourselves and hard times . We are storing up , preserving , preparing and stretching things the best we can . To do it I am sure we will do better if we consider this advise from Proverbs . Maybe there are possibilities that we haven 't thought of that might help us in our food budget . How do you maximise the amount of food you get for your money ? How are you like merchant ships ? I would love to learn more ways we can be like this . If it helps our food budget it will help our pantry also . Somehow I just know that this verse being on my mind so much is going to lead to some good discoveries ! We had a short week this week due to a public holiday . Technically , yes , it is still seven days in a week ! But the routine is changed and I don 't seem to get so much done . So on Tuesday I got a wriggle on and tried to make up for it ! A weekly review and lots of lists help me get more done . When we talk about building up our homes , feathering our nests , it can mean a lot of things . Building up relationships is also building up your nest . It is strengthening your home . Some weeks we might achieve more in one area than another . All progress is progress ! But considering our achievements helps us see how much is possible . That progress has been made . That definitely helps me feel happy and more positive than only looking at what needs doing rather than celebrate what has been achieved ! There are so many reasons that saving money can help you build up your home . Security for one . There is nothing like an emergency fund and some financial leeway to create a buffer between us and unexpected circumstances . And there is nothing like a pantry full of goodness to create another buffer between us and shortages , full prices , the takeaway shops , the times we are rained or snowed in or the times the bills come before the income has come in . I can 't wait until we get the first good rains . The garden is dry in spite of all the recycled water it gets . But this was great as a start . I baked a birthday cake for my brothers birthday . He likes a fruit cake . So I made him one and I doubled the recipe . This recipe makes one very large fruit cake . So doubled I made three medium plus two tiny fruit cakes . It is a recipe that improves with age . Also this makes it a perfect pantry cake . It keeps at least a year . Having this on hand is wonderful . Unexpected visitors , a gift , a busy time , it is a great cake to have in the cupboard . The recipe is here . I have set one aside to take away on our holiday . One for Andy 's birthday cake as it is his favourite . We had one mini one for desert and one mini one I sent to my Dad . As a gift for Dad , along with the little cake , I sent him jars of plum and jars of fig and almond jam . He is mad about old fashioned jams like these . It was a big success he rang me up so pleased ! We experienced some culture in an arts festival in our city . It was a light show and the evening was beautiful . It was totally free and a lovely night out . Checking for free events can be a really good idea . I made some extra meals by cooking double or triple . This included tuna mornay which saved cooking one night . When I do this I try and make it different . One night I served tuna money in vol au vent cases . Then two nights later I served it with breadcrumbs and cheese baked over it . Both were yum . Lucy is finishing her nursery . I was able to give her a lovely bookcase and a bedside table . These were both things she said she needed . I told her I had one of each in the shed ! Both were road side finds . The shelves were handmade heavy wooden shelves and the table was a Queen Anne style little bedside table with drawers . She was so pleased and yesterday I saw how they turned out when painted up ! Gorgeous ! So that wasn 't my money saving but a big one for her . I love being able to do this ! I couldn 't show you this before or Helen would have seen but for her birthday I made kitchen gifts and added pantry items ! One gift was gingham serviettes that I did a crochet edge on . Helen loves red in her kitchen . So I made the whole parcel red . This was easy to do and she loved it . Making presents overall saves me a lot of money and I can make things just to suit what someone loves . This was a success ! ( At Christmas I had made her a red gingham tablecloth ) . I am starting a frugal craft , a rag rug . Here is Nanna Chels tutorial that she posted this week . I almost have enough fabrics for this . We have a chance to go to some country op shops coming up and I will get the material I need then . My ambition is to make a heart shaped rag rug for next to the bed and for the little nursery I am setting up . Nana Chel 's Rag Rug Tutorial . I love reading how people save money and the things they do . Patsy was out of her usual shopping area and decided while she was near other shops to check out the prices . She struck gold in some amazing specials . This reminds me of the verse " she brings home food from far away places . " Many times exploring new markets , shops , garage sales etc we come across things we would normally never see ! For us the country op shops are so wonderful and if we didn 't check them on trips away we would just miss out . I come home with gorgeous fabrics and everything I need for planned crafts , presents and clothes too . So always remember to " bring home food from far away places . " Some of the best fruit and vegetable buys I have ever had are from far flung suburbs out of my normal area . But calling in on them has turned out so well ! Being ever watchful is always going to help . On My Abundant Life Wendy has started a column to alert each other to great specials of the week . This is such a good idea . Straight away via her blog and face book I saw two of my favourite brand shampoo 's were half price at Coles ! Helping each other find specials is a wonderful idea ! Wendy also posted recently how her daughter spotted tomatoes at a fantastic price . This helped Wendy heaps and I thought I wonder how many teenage daughters know WHAT is a bargain price on fruit and vegies and would both NOTICE / watch out and alert their Mother ? Very impressive . And this is what we need to do . Use the eyes and ears of all our family members and friends ! Get everyone on board , tell them what to watch for , what you are looking for . Andy has sent me a text saying " is $ 2 good for cauliflowers ? " as he has seen them in front of a shop . . . . yes it is ! Get everyone on board to help you and work as a team . I hope you had a great week and I love hearing what you did to build up your nest and save money . We both learn new ideas and encourage each other . As we " encourage one another " we are helping each others households as well ! xxx My husband and I live in the mountains , where there are an abundance of large gum trees . In the past , the road to town has been blocked by landslides that make the road impassable . It also means during severe weather events , we usually lose power . This also means we don 't have water to the house . I kept moving at a busy pace as the morning unfolded , and cooked several meals , using the chicken we had in the freezer as well as making a cake and a pie . We have recently bought a oven that attaches to our wood stove and we have plenty of firewood . We also had purchased a generator , and my husband bought it up and started it to make sure it was running as well as checking we had enough fuel for it . After this event , what do I realise about where we are short if we face this again . . . . and we will . I don 't have adequate lighting . I have several hundred tea lights , as well as various candles , torches and battery operated fairy lights . On my wish list are some Kerosene Lamps from Kirkman 's in the U . S . Later my memories are of Nan who would have her spinning wheel in the lounge room and she spun her own yarn and knitted her projects from her own wool . She loved it . Evenings were industrious times . No one ever just sat and watched tv . You worked on your projects ! We all did . It was a little hive of activity . Very pre industrial revolution ! Nan also had friends who all got together with their spinning wheels and they would talk and spin and make a day of it . They were very happy times . I am so glad I had all this going on around me as it was just natural to be creating something . But you don 't have to have learned things when you were little to learn them now . I didn 't do a stiitch of embroidery until I was in my thirties . Learning this was wonderful . Actually exciting and utterly addictive ! And only last year I learned a heap of new crochet patterns and I found that just as exciting . It was so much fun I barely noticed winter . Once you are absorbed in something you really relax and your heart just sings . I forget what time it is and that I should go to bed ! I used to make up little designs from childrens books and just have so much fun with sweet little stories and innocence . It was just delightful . It did me good . You cannot think unhappy thoughts when putting a nappy on a baby mouse . I know my Nan suffered anxiety . I look back and see now that when she sat there not doing anything ( which was rare ) she seemed anxious . When she was spinning or knitting she was happy ! When she was productive she was relaxed . It was visible . This is so applicable to me . Anytime I have stopped being creative has been a sign I 'm not doing well . If I want to up my happiness and contentment I need to get itno some new projects and learn something new . Many times I hear that people don 't sew / knit / crochet or whatever as they aren 't as good at it as someone else in the family , their work isn 't good enough . . . but it is a natural process to go from learning , to being a beginner to being really good at something . That is part of the fun . Don 't let perfectionism rob you from all the joys that should be coming your way . Being able to give or help through creativity is even better . You may not be able to donate large amounts to charity . But you might be able to make warm rugs for children that need them or beanies for premmie babies who 's heads get cold ! You may be able to bless a new mother or a person with something lovingly made . So what will I learn next ? Nanna Chel has got me onto rag rugs . I have always admired them but never made one . So I am going to learn . Nanna Chel is putting up a tutorial and when its ready I will post a link to it . Start saving old sheets in pretty fabrics ! The proverbs woman was busy making things . Her skills were many and varied ! You just never stop learning and fine tuning your skills . The Bible says that the skilled worker will stand before kings . Like everything in the Bible it turns out to be true on more levels than you ever thought . Now there are countless studies on crafts , knitting , crochet and their health benefits . Yes , health benefits . We are meant to be busy with our hands . We were built that way . We are happier and more content . We are more relaxed . Our blood pressure goes down . ( mmm except when you are making mistakes and then it goes up ! ) Our minds are distracted from our worries . Our sense of achievement and satisfaction go up ! Creating things helps us balance the budget , earn an income , decorate our homes , feed our families , gives us purpose , helps us feel content at home . CONTENT AT HOME . If you can imagine how much this means . If you are content at home you have no desire to be loitering in the mall wasting money . You just don 't have that unquenchable thirst for the next thing . You are content at home . What a thing to cultivate and instill in children . You never compare yourself to the Jones ' as you are too busy to notice the Jones ' ( I hope this is also a US expression . . . " Keeping up with the Jones ' is an expression here to mean the competitive pressure to keep up materially with those who SEEM to be wealthy ) . So often I hear women say that their Grandma taught them to knit and gave them a life long gift . The other day I read this on a face book story . The question was when did you learn to knit and crochet ? Many said that their Grandmothers had taught them and how thankful they were . One lady said her Grandmother had taught her to crochet and now she was herself in her 70 's and it had given her a life of joy . How beautiful is that ? So for ourselves and for our children and grandchildren it is so important we work creativity into our lives and teach the skills to others and learn new ones from someone who is more advanced . It is so much fun . This is another aspect of " encourage one another . " If you have skills you have let go for a while try getting started again . If you haves something you always wished to learn take a little time , even half an hour and take step one to leaning . It might be watching a you tube tutorial or go to the library for some books . When you are learning something new you will thrive ! It doesn 't need to be needlework , painting , cake decorating , card making , decorating and so many things are being creative . I think it 's creative to make a meal from a few basic ingredients . Mum is in her 70 's and has always been very productive . No idle hands around her home ! But she is still learning . I actually was able to teach her some more crochet patterns last yeatr ( thanks to you tube ) and we had heaps of fun trying these together . But now she is trying something new and making head bands and boot toppers . I can tell she 's having fun ! Here is my youngest Niece modelling some of Nan 's headbands on the weekend . Very willingly I might add : ) I said she could be on my blog and she was very happy to help out . This was one of our collaborations , I made the flower and Mum makes the headband . My niece wanted this one . She said " Nanna this feels so soft and nice on my head . " Seriously do yourself a massive favour and be creative and productive . And keep learning new skills or resurrect old ones . The last picture reminds me today it is Lucy and Kato 's first anniversary ! They have had a big big first year . They got married , had a wonderful honeymoon , got a baby started and moved into a bigger home . That is pretty good for their first year ! Now Lucy is painting up furniture , creating a nursery , decorating a house and cooking up meals I can see the creativity in her and that she feels that satisfaction too .

Today is Wednesday and I have just realized that I have not seen either one of my children since Sunday . Yes , we all still live in the same tiny two bedroom apartment . But I am leaving for my first job before 7 : 00AM and then coming home from my second job at 11 : 00PM or later . I have seen my 5 year old asleep a few times , but I haven 't laid eyes on my 14 year old since Sunday . I did talk to her on the phone once . There is a part of me that is wondering if $ 40 , 000 a year is worth this . I am thinking it is not . However , I know there is no future in my present career or job and part of me is just hoping my manager at Starbucks is not kidding when she says she is going to train me in July to be a shift manager . ( $ 40 , 000 / year is not a typo . That 's what I am making from BOTH jobs . Ooops , I just did the math ; it 's actually $ 37 , 800 . ) On a brighter note , our Al - Anon group decided to go with my idea of adding another meeting . I asked for a Step Meeting on Thursday nights , and that is what is going to happen on May 13 and thereafter . This makes me very happy . Tonight I am going to get to go to a meeting , and then go home and look at my children for a couple of hours . Tomorrow I am planning on going into work later , around 8am instead of before 7 , and hopefully I will get some good sleep tonight . I 'm not even reading anymore . Too tired , and if I pick up a book I am asleep before I can finish a page . I 'm also feeling old due to being in the midst of a fibro flare the past few days . Thanks for listening to the whine . I will try to have better cheese next time . I really love Earth Day . Christmas gives me the blues , and most other family - oriented holidays in general are just depressing . However , Earth Day ( and Halloween , of course ) is the type of holiday I can get behind . Earth Day came about as an idea from Gaylord Nelson , a senator . The first Earth Day was celebrated in 1970 , when I was about 7 months old . ( I 'm sure my parents had no idea about it ; my dad is an ex - Marine sharpshooter whose idea of environmentalism is hunting , and my mother prides herself on having been above all hippy - like ideas , including saving the planet , in the 60s . ) Here 's Nelson 's take on the history of Earth Day ( his own words taken from the EnviroLink website ) : Actually , the idea for Earth Day evolved over a period of seven years starting in 1962 . For several years , it had been troubling me that the state of our environment was simply a non - issue in the politics of the country . Finally , in November 1962 , an idea occurred to me that was , I thought , a virtual cinch to put the environment into the political " limelight " once and for all . The idea was to persuade President Kennedy to give visibility to this issue by going on a national conservation tour . I flew to Washington to discuss the proposal with Attorney General Robert Kennedy , who liked the idea . So did the President . The President began his five - day , eleven - state conservation tour in September 1963 . For many reasons the tour did not succeed in putting the issue onto the national political agenda . However , it was the germ of the idea that ultimately flowered into Earth Day . I continued to speak on environmental issues to a variety of audiences in some twenty - five states . All across the country , evidence of environmental degradation was appearing everywhere , and everyone noticed except the political establishment . The environmental issue simply was not to be found on the nation 's political agenda . The people were concerned , but the politicians were not . After President Kennedy 's tour , I still hoped for some idea that would thrust the environmenTerre Brothers Johnson Living with an alcoholic is never easy . Last night I finished working a 12 hour shift at my primary job , and had to go for a brief store meeting at Starbucks , my second job . I explained to my alcoholic that the meeting would be finished at 7pm . However , he called me at 6 : 50pm asking where I am and what were my plans for dinner . Due to his slurring words , loud voice , and the fact that he was calling when he knew I should not be taking calls , I was pretty sure he was drunk . My mind went , I am ashamed to admit , to its usual place . I started to formulate a big old resentment and started doing that pissed off , snippy self dialog in my head . Instead of enjoying meeting the rest of the team I work with , I was nursing that ugly resentment . However , my usual Monday night Al - Anon meeting was almost half over . I drove the mile or so to the meeting , parked illegally ( sorry , will make amends later ) , and rushed upstairs to catch the last 25 minutes of the meeting , and felt SO MUCH BETTER because of it . I take heart in the fact that I may not always go to the right place in my head , but I do know better how to handle it . Today has been an off day however . I was up 5 times last night with stomach illness , and have felt off and out of sorts all day because of it . I am working at my office now , and until 5 : 50pm or so , then going home , because I don 't have it in me to work a 15 hour day today . I knew doing both jobs was not going to be easy . But instead of panicking , I am going to just survive one day at a time . Just get through today , and let tomorrow be tomorrow 's job . Until tomorrow , dear reader . Sweet dreams . I am not a fan of Mondays . They come along and ruin a perfectly good weekend . This weekend was not perfect , but Saturday was pretty good , and I finished the 4th Dexter book last night , so all in all . . . it beats working . This weekend and today have convinced me even more that I need to find work in the area of my first degree , English . I am so burned out with disabilities and human services , I find myself becoming more and more jaded by the day . At this moment , I am work , slugging through piles and piles of papers , which seem to never end . Today the administrative assistant that I hired begins working , so I am looking forward to training her and giving this mess over to her . A part of me feels as if I am dumping the work on someone else , but I cannot do everything , or even the majority of everything , so I am coming to peace with the idea quite quickly . There 's not much time for blogging this morning , as I have some paperwork of my own to generate . Our new policy states that I will complete the summaries for the month before by the 20th , and tomorrow is the 20th . I will also be working at Starbucks tomorrow , so that will impact my ability to get it all done too . So , until later . Today was a busy day . I took the girls to the grocery , and then to Starbuck 's ( through the drive - through , we had cold groceries to get home ) . And then I took them to the library , where they stayed while I went to my Saturday morning Al - Anon meeting downtown . And then I picked the girls up , and we went home and went swimming at the indoor pool at my apartment complex . While swimming , Tara put on a pair of water wings and SWAM ALONE for the first time , so that was rather exciting ! We then went to Cove Springs , a park in Frankfort , and hiked a couple of the trails . It was all good fun , and I got the picture below too - a picture of one of the trails with the redbuds blooming . I love the redbud trees ; they are one of the most beautiful things about living in Kentucky in April . Of course , having this much fun today means that I am going to have to clean house and work in the office for a long time tomorrow . I am trying not to be bitter about that . On a lighter note , I have been craving the smell of coffee all day , and for this reason actually missed working at Starbuck 's today . I guess this means I like my job ! Tonight I am at a friend 's house , just a brief walk from my place , and using my laptop on her Internet . I so miss having internet at home . I think I am going to have to pay to have it reconnected when I get paid from BOTH my jobs on Friday . I am also going to get a French press and some decent coffee . I have at least the foresight to already own a grinder . . . During the meeting today the topic was " Facing Reality . " This was a really good topic for me , and later , probably tomorrow I will post what I wrote during the meeting . ( Yes , I wrote during the meeting . It was apparent the leader of the meeting , who is a strong Alateen supporter , despite the fact we have NO Alateens showing up for any meetings , was going to go on at length about how we all need to support Alateen . In fact , the meeting did not even start until 30 minutes into the meeting , when the first reading was done . I decided there were people there who Posted by Today I did a shift of training at Starbucks . Then I came to the office and walked into a meeting , and had to do more negotiating and problem solving on my feet . Now the office is empty and I am left to try to clean the mess and get myself organized . I find an interesting phenomenon - how easily it is to switch my gears from newly hired , bottom of the totem pole trainee to coming in and being management at the other job . I almost prefer the trainee role . . . it doesn 't hurt that everyone is being patient and doing an excellent job of teaching me , so the learning is relatively painless . Now I am back in the office and looking at so many piles of paper I could lose my mind . On Monday the filing person / administrative assistant I hired is starting , so I am hoping by the end of next week I will be able to find things again without trying to pull a muscle in my back or brain . The other delicious thing is that I am broke this weekend , but I AM OFF FROM BOTH JOBS ! ! ! ! I 'm not really sure what I am going to do with two days off , as it has not happened in so long . Like , in over 8 months . But I feel sure I can do something . Sleeping in on Sunday is the first thing I really have planned . I 'll let the rest of the weekend unfold as it will . I am sure it will be over far too soon . Well , it is something like Fiction Friday , but I have nothing prepared . So here 's a spot ( composed on the spot ! ) poem : There 's nothing like you Thank god . I mean , really , Would you ask for another ? So in love with your own voice , Until it grates like cheese over my shattered nerves ? Or pontificating , Flashes - or is it flushes - Of brilliance shared for us , The unwashed masses . We thank you , Really . Not so much . - 4 / 16 / 10 Yesterday I was not in a very good frame of mind . It was my younger daughter 's fifth birthday and some family and friends were coming over to have cake and ice cream and open gifts . I had to make a late afternoon run to meet with a new client in another city . While on the way there , I got a call from the husband saying the 5 year old 's guinea pig was dying . The guests were to due to arrive at any minute . So I continued on , met with my client , and then came home . By the time I got home , the guinea pig was dead and all the guests had arrived . We didn 't tell Tara , but after everyone else left , Tara asked about Sammy ( the guinea pig ) . I told her about the situation . She and I cried for a while , and then went to bed . This morning I mused over the situation . How sad it is that I can 't protect her from disappointment and grief , and that it had to happen on her birthday , a day she had been looking forward to . Life is full of disappointments . I was told that if I worked hard and got an education , my life would be better . Someone lied . Everything I was taught growing up was based on the basic message or premise that I am intrinsically not good enough - that I must earn self esteem , love and the esteem of others by my actions , or by my possessions , cachet , or some external construct . In reality , this is probably the most damaging thing about being me . Now I want to make sure I don 't sell this line of crap to my children , polluting their chances at true self worth . . . . Just some musings . I 'll write more later when I 've thought more about it . I gave birth at 4 : 06 in the afternoon to a spirited little girl . She is the light of my life . When things have been the darkest for me , especially in the last year , she has been the only reason I have persevered . So for today , Happy Birthday , Tara . Thank you for being my daughter . She was named after Tara , the female Buddha , goddess of compassion . May you have a happy and serene life , and always remember you are loved . I am working both my jobs today , so I am daydreaming about going home and taking a nap for the next oh , let 's say 20 hours . Unfortunately , that is not a possibility . I am here until around 10pm , and then I get to go home and start cleaning . Tomorrow I am only working the first job , and then Thursday and Friday I work both jobs again . I am only scheduled 4 hours a day at the coffee shop , but my original job is at least 60 hours a week , so this may get a bit crazy , or at least creative . In my visits to others ' blogs this afternoon I was struck by the others ' feeling the same way I have lately - overextended . Tired . Transitioned out . I 'm worn out . Wish there was some entertaining witticism here , but there 's not . Maybe tomorrow . . . I am happy to report . Mondays are rough . Simply because the hallowed sacredness that is the weekend has passed again , not to return for another five days , and I have to come back and look at the same piles of papers that I left bitterly on Friday . Today began well overall . I finished reading the third Dexter novel ( if you haven 't had the pleasure , check out the entire series , three in paperback , the last one only in hardback still . . . . Jeff Lindsay is the author , and I 've enjoyed reading his work . ) , and hit the grocery store to buy a loaf of bread for fixings for lunch here at the office for the week . Homemade pimento cheese from their deli - need I say more ? Or is pimento cheese simply a Southern phenomenon ? I then came to the office and cleared my desk into piles of tasks for the day . And my office phone and cell phone have been quieter than in ages . . . This past weekend I started my job at Starbuck 's . Yes , that is the hallowed place I have been hired . And yes , I actually like it . The people are nice , the coffee is actually good , and I am actually learning something new . Something that does not involve what I have been doing for the last 20 + years , so it is refreshing too . Last week I hired a part - time assistant . I will be sharing her with the rest of the management team , and she doesn 't start until next week , but I am so looking forward to having someone else file all these damn papers and get them off my desk . I am also having her deal with the phones and the other silliness that interrupts me a thousand times a day so I can be more efficient during the time I am here , and hopefully go back to working closer to 40 hours a week here instead of 60 or 70 . I don 't think this will be the key to making my life perfect or anything , but I do think it is a step in the right direction to making life a bit more sane for me . It 's been almost a week since I 've been to a meeting , but I am doing well . Last night I got a call from a fellow Al - Anon , and it did me good to listen . Lots of the talking I did do was in the form of aPosted by This morning began rather harried as I had to chauffeur St Timothy of the Dirty Drawers to work earlier than usual . I went in to wake up Tara and get her ready to go and she had covered herself from head to foot in some kind of oily black residue . She wouldn 't tell me the origin of the mess , but it took me about 15 minutes to get it off her face , hands and torso so she would be presentable for public viewing . I then dropped off St Timmy and proceeded to the gas station , as my tire was flat for the third time in as many days . As I was reinflating the tire , I checked my email on my cell phone - ever the multitasker - and found that most of the paperwork I emailed yesterday to a person was now being asked for in hard copy by the same person . So I turned around , took Tara to the office with me , and proceeded to make copies and make sure all documentation was complete AGAIN . I was told by staff they were coming to the office to drop off more paperwork , and that they would pick up the tomes I have now assembled . As I have been working this morning , Tara has fallen asleep on the floor of my office , and I am hoping she will nap until lunch , at which time I will take her home and go back to washing the dishes that amassed yesterday while I was at work . Tomorrow I go to see about a training and work schedule for the new job . I am hoping to be able to balance both jobs in my life . I am pretty sure that I will have to cut out several - hopefully not all - of my Al - Anon meetings . I hope I can make it through . I mean , really . It is almost bearable in the rest of the office here . But my office , it is always about 20 degrees hotter than anywhere else . . . . Today has been a typical spring day of thunderstorms here in KY . The temperature has been about 80 degrees F . And I 've been in the office most of the day , so I 'm looking forward to going over the bridge here downtown and going to an Al - Anon meeting . Living with an active alcoholic , I need the meetings as I can fit them into my world . Also I received a phone call today and I got the job I applied for last week . I am going in Wednesday and going to see how I can combine it with my job that I am working right now . I may go back to being an independent contractor at the job I have now . I am not sure . . . . I think I can do both . Or die trying . . . Usually I do this about once a year . I panic about the money so then go get two full - time jobs and then work myself to death for a few months , until I pass out . Or get sick . Or have a mini - breakdown . Let 's hope this time it works out . Something 's got to give . Only time for a short blog today . Last night I met with my sponsor and we went over my 6th and 7th Step writings so I can forge ahead to my 8th Step . Of course , the person on the top of my 8th Step List is ME . So at the moment I am wondering how to make amends to myself . This should be an interesting process . . . . Also , today is Good Friday . There 's still just enough Catholic girl in me to note this , and to want to go somewhere quiet and reflect this afternoon until 3PM or so . . . The day is just beginning , and yet . . . .

I realize that in the grand scheme of things , the musical bedtime selections of our kids is not a big deal . And I acknowledge that overall , our kids ' tastes in music are quite varied . Like in the car , where they clamor for ' 90s French rapper MC Solaar . Or in the kitchen , where they hang on for dear life to keep up with the rollercoaster that is Michael Jackson 's Wanna Be Startin ' Somethin ' . U2 , Stevie Wonder , The Who , they dig all that . But when you 're a mother of color trying to instill some sense of black culture in your kids - and the shiny meadows and shinier blonde mops all around you make you feel you 're already living a John Denver song - hearing those opening twangs about the Shenandoah River night after night after night can feel like a losing battle . I 'm not sure how the CD , which belongs to my husband , first got into the rotation . But at bedtime , as their eyelids flutter and finally sink into sleep , there is only one voice Sky and Rose want to hear : the voice that sings Rocky Mountain High , Sunshine on My Shoulder and of course , the top grosser of all Denver 's hits , the ballad that gets mentioned with John Lennon 's Imagine and Aretha Franklin 's Respect as one of the most influential songs of the 20th century : Take Me Home , Country Roads . Attempts to slip in the occasional Erykah Badu or Harry Belafonte are futile . " I like how his voice sounds singing with the music , " Sky explained the other night . " It sounds , you know , nice . " And part of me can 't argue with that four - star review - especially since I made a stink to Brian about the last CD that was in heavy rotation , Led Zeppelin II ( remastered ) . I 'm sure Sky and Rose have no idea what Robert Plant is talking about , but there 's something weird about peeking in on children bathed in the glow of a Hello Kitty lamp and hearing " Squeeze me baby / ' Til the juice runs down my leg " waft through the crack in the door . Now , some have called Denver 's songs soaring melodies of hope . I would call them syrupy odes to romantic love and an idyllic notion of America that doesn 't really exist . I would not be alone in that assessment . In 2007 , in the midst of an apparently heated battle over whether to declare Rocky Mountain High the state song of Colorado , a Denver Post columnist opined , " Rocky Mountain High deserves its place in Colorado . . . in Muzak form on supermarket speakers or during a marathon Time Life infomercial hosted by Air Supply . " Of course with music , it 's all relative . If Ray Charles and legendary ska band The Maytals saw fit to record covers of Take Me Home , there 's gotta be something to it that I 'm missing . And as I write this , I 'm actually recalling another heated debate that took place right around 2007 , in a cell phone conversation between Brian and me . I 'll attribute some of the things I said , and the conviction with which I said them , to the hormones coursing through my body during my second pregnancy . But I distinctly remember screaming about the importance of our kids understanding the revolutionary sound of A Tribe Called Quest . And I remember Brian saying something about hip - hop consisting of a lot of noise and only a very little bit of actual music . In the 1970s , after Denver married first wife Annie Martell , the couple had trouble conceiving . They adopted a son , Zachary John , and later a daughter , Anna Kate , who Denver would later say were " meant to be theirs . " The little boy who inspired Denver 's Zachary and Jennifer and A Baby Just Like You ( which he wrote for Frank Sinatra ) , was black . If the Internet is to be believed , he is now in his 30s , happily married , and still lives in Colorado . In an interview he gave to People in 1979 , Denver talked about his family . He made no mention of race , but he made his feelings about fatherhood very clear . " I 'll tell you the best thing about me . I 'm some guy 's dad ; I 'm some little gal 's dad . When I die , Zachary John and Anna Kate 's father , boy , that 's enough for me to be remembered by . That 's more than enough . " - Feb 6 - Sometimes , out of nowhere , a person comes into your life and offers you the gift of sight . Somebody you didn 't imagine could exist one day appears the next day , and sends a column of light into the settled passages of your mind , showing you something you needed to see . Not by anything they say or do , but by their way of being in the world . You might not have ever heard of Leon , but some of the people he 's played with in his 40 - year career may ring a bell : Stevie Wonder . Michael Jackson . Mick Jagger . The Marley sons , the Fugees and the rapper Nas . A few years ago , Leon got a phone call from a friend to come play at the United Nations in New York for a fundraiser . It was Madonna . When Leon was 7 , a friend of his uncle 's came by one night and scooped him up to play drums for a show in Boston . That was Duke Ellington . How did the path of a world - traveling percussionist cross the path of a mom whose orbit often includes the town gas station , family day care and the nearby Target ? They crossed because , incredibly , the place I reluctantly call home is also a place Leon calls home . Not two weeks ago , I sat on a train bound for a weekend in New York , feeling every Amtrak mile that put distance between me and the racial vacuum of this awfully lovely town . But this very same place - this land of saltbox barns and driveways that disappear into Yankee estates unseen - was drawing Leon closer . He couldn 't wait to get here . Leon doesn 't own a house here and he wasn 't born here . He grew up in a housing project in Boston . Where he lived , a mayonnaise sandwich was a meal and the eggs at breakfast time came powdered , from a can . But in 1970 , when he was in the third grade , Leon made a little piece of Boston history : He entered METCO , a newly established and voluntary school desegregation program between Boston and its ring of affluent suburbs . Waking up before the sun and taking the subway to a waiting station wagon that substituted for a bus , he was transported from his cramped high - rise to Dover , Mass . , the country town next door to ours , the place where my husband and his father and four fathers before that were born . Little Leon Mobley , all of 8 years old , became the first student from METCO ever to attend Dover 's elementary school . And last week , for an entire week , he returned to that school to teach traditions of West African drumming and culture . I wrote about Leon 's homecoming for a story in last week 's Boston Globe . Not everything from our two - hour phone conversation made it into print . For example , there was the time a kid in middle school walked up to him and said , " The only good nigger is a dead nigger . " It 's strange to be a 41 - year - old woman who writes about race and has lived here for 10 years , but who still feels paralyzed in the face of situations that are much , much tamer than that . Leon was just a kid . I 'm sure he felt hurt , but he definitely wasn 't stunned . " I looked at him and said , ' You need to kill somebody , you kill me , ' " he said . When I finally met Leon , it was at a suburban hotel off 95 in Newton , not far from here . The master drummer who has played at Wembley and hung out with Mandela had an audience of 35 , give or take , in a lounge area outside a basement - level restaurant . When he started to drum , it looked like there wasn 't anywhere else in the world he wanted to be . Two days later , inside the school auditorium where he performed with school kids , he was greeted with the kind of deafening screams usually reserved for Justin Bieber . It was an amazing thing to watch . It is said that when METCO first started , the program strategically sought out a certain kind of child . They were looking for little survivors , students who could cross from a world of powdered eggs to a world of poached eggs and find some way to hold onto themselves . They were looking for Leon Mobley . There was no diminishing this kid . Every experience he had here - being chased by state cops , being embraced by a local family , being nurtured by teachers or feared by townies - became fertile soil for his own growth . Deadbolt locks in one place , doors that were never locked in another place ? It was all experience . He soaked up every lesson this place had to teach him . " Without Dover , " he once said of his adopted hometown , " there is no Leon Mobley . " There it is right there , that column of light . I sound like a broken record , I know . But I still have so many questions about this : What is home ? Is it history running deep over a few square miles ? Is it a census tract with an acceptable threshold of your own kind , or is it the beat you hear in your head no matter where you are ? How much of home is the feeling you get , and how much of it is the feeling you make ? Never , ever start a two - part blog post about race and children 's books when you are lost in the tunnels of your very real , very adult racial mid - life crisis . When the school bus driver 's confused stare , just a few seconds long , starts to stay in your mind 's eye for hours . When a row of maple trees might as well be a row of metal bars . When the path you 've made with another person - every piece you snapped in place together , every willing compromise and good intention - obscures itself . And two things that never stood in the path before , blackness and whiteness , look so big you can 't see if the path continues on the other side . Do they argue about balancing Spork 's spoon heritage and fork heritage ? If you are made of prongs , can you truly understand a round hollow ? And if these utensils are a family , where can they all happily live ? Because like much of America ( still ) , drawer organizers tend to be segregated . " When I conceived of this story , I knew I didn 't want the protagonist to be distinctly human . . . I wanted to avoid the ' social studies ' approach to talking about these issues , which can become ponderous and joyless , " says Maclear , who lives in Canada with her husband and young daughter . " I definitely didn 't want to make my character purple or some arbitrary mixed color , because I find this trivializes the real historical and cultural experiences of being a person of color . " When readers meet Spork , Maclear says , they are disarmed . I have no idea if Sky and Rose consciously see their mixed selves when I read this book to them . But I know they root for Spork , and I know more than anything they love how it all ends . If there is a better guiding principle when it comes to race , I can 't think of one . Yes , there are deep injustices to battle . There are presidential candidates who have figured out how to divide across color and culture , and there are families still trying to figure out how to love across color and culture . But so many of these things hinge on the stories we tell ourselves , or have told ourselves for too long . Sometimes we need a new language . And fresh words . To a city girl , a town dump is a revelation . For years , I lined barrels and blue square bins along the curb of my building for the garbage truck . Here , despite paying some of the highest taxes in the state , people find it second nature to load up the car , decamp from their wooded estates , and haul their trash to a transfer station . They also bond there - with old neighbors ; with the newcomers to town ; with Billy , the war veteran who lets kids push the hydraulic compactor button and whose late father ran the dump for years . Billy is the historian and long - haired king of this place ; my kids love seeing him at the top of the drop - off hill and so do I . Although , since the day a woman stopped to ask me if I knew any other good nannies in the area , I mostly keep to myself . The dump isn 't just the place where the town brings its garbage . It is also the home of the town swap shop , where people who no longer want their pine dressers or perfectly functioning deluxe gas grills can leave them for others to claim . Furniture , toys , books . At one point , about half of our baby book collection was made up of selections from the swap shop . Hazel the Hedgehog is one of a series of baby animal board books I scored at the swap shop years ago . By series I mean Bobby the Bunny , Cathy the Calf , Danny the Duck , etc . At the time they seemed like real finds , with a Dick - and - Jane cuteness that would not be denied : Each book was cut in the profile of a particular animal 's shape . I couldn 't wait to bring them home to Sky , who was just 2 then . As it turns out , Hazel the Hedgehog had more in store for us than a bedtime story . Amazon describes Hazel as a book about " recognizing that being different makes one special . " I would describe it as colorstruck and creepy . Picture a bizarrely Aryan collection of animals - white dog , white sheep , white - ish goat and a thoroughly blonde horse - cavorting on a farm . Now picture dark , brown Hazel entering stage left from behind a bush . " Hello , everyone . May I play , too ? " Oh , Hazel . I 'm sorry sweetheart , but no , you can 't play with everyone . I 'm not sure why your parents didn 't break that news to you - although I feel your pain , because my parents never broke the news to me . It 's quite the scene , as the farm animals pull away and huddle on one side of the grass . They turn , look over their shoulders and throw Hazel a collective evil eye I 've yet to see in another board book meant for infants . In a clear blue sky , the sun suddenly stops smiling . Here is what the animals say : " No way , you 're too spikey . We 'll prick ourselves . " Too spikey , Hazel realizes about herself for the first time , and on the next page she wanders into isolation and cries big fat hedgehog tears . Brian and I had a good sick laugh over the plot . Then we quietly took Hazel out of circulation . Hazel the Hedgehog isn 't a book about race or color . But it is a book that shows the incredible power of color to convey meaning and reinforce meaning . All hedgehogs are spikey . But not all hedgehogs are dark and not all horses are blonde . In case there was any confusion about spikeyness or softness , the colors were there to make the message clearer . Babies get that message , and they keep getting it . This is why psychology studies 50 years ago and psychology studies today show black girls all reaching for the white doll . This is why , for example , I have a very hard time explaining to my daughter that in her book about the Haitian Revolution , the band of dark - skinned slaves are the heroes and the white emporer with the funny hat named Napoleon is not . Over the years , Hazel the Hedgehog has come to occupy a special place in the Maple Street imagination . Not to be confused with actual hedgehogs - which sometimes invade our garden and send my husband flying up the stairs for his rifle - Hazel has become a perfect little shorthand . She stands for any situation in which something racial or racist is happening , but no one will acknowledge it for what it is . Hazel was too spikey the same way the black kid people inch away from on the sidewalk is too scary . The same way a Michelle Obama new to the campaign trail was too angry . The same way that , in the preschool circles of my childhood , my hair was too woolly and strange . Playing Duck Duck Goose , sandy - haired girls and boys skipped around patting each other 's heads , but they hovered over mine . Instinct tells hedgehogs to roll into a ball when they feel threatened . The instincts of a 4 - year - old are less clear than that . At the end of the book , a turtle discovers Hazel crying and instantly recognizes her pain : The animals won 't play with him because he is too slow . The spikey one and the slow one become friends and the sun breaks into a new smile . Which is great . But it would be so much more satisfying if all the fluffy white animals were banished from the barnyard . I have another friend for Hazel . His name is Spork . A spork is a common camping utensil , half - spoon , half - fork . Spork is also a book , and it 's pretty popular in this house . So popular and intriguing , in fact , that I went looking for its author . Our brief , warm connection was of the hedgehog - meets - turtle variety . More about that in Hazel the Hedgehog Part 2 . - Nov 3 - The Liebster Blog Award , I discovered recently , recognizes up - and - coming blogs with small audiences and big heart . It is awarded by bloggers to fellow bloggers . How do I know this ? Because Caramels on Maple Street became one of its recipients last week - how cool is that ? Now it 's my turn to pay it forward and give a big Liebster Award shout - out recognizing some of my favorite blogs , here below . History . Glamour . Adoption . Travel . And getting back to the land . All of these blogs inspire me ! And that 's all she wrote , folks . . . - Oct 21 - The other day I decided to test Rose 's new understanding of rhyme , which she 's learning a lot about in preschool . " Lock ! Block ! That rhymes , Mama ! " she 'll say , much the way I imagine Newton sounded when he discovered gravity . - Oct 14 - This blog is predicated on my living in a town where the sight of a black person turns heads and boggle minds . Lately , my sanity is predicated on getting away from twisted heads and boggled states . Far away , not just from the reality of being judged or prejudged , but from the fear of it happening , anticipating reality . It 's my perpetual Maple Street dilemma : Does keeping the blog mean losing my mind ? Fall is here . I have not written for a while , but that is not because there is nothing to say . It 's because there is too much to say . Questions , there are plenty of : Was it a mistake to move here ? Even if you take into account the joy bursting from small feet that tear across an endless yard ; even if over the river and through the woods really does lead to grandmother 's house - not just in a song or on Thanksgiving but several times a week , every week ; even with the smattering of area families who are like us and who seem happy , or at least more well - adjusted : Was it the right thing or the wrong thing to leave Boston for a town where we are visible curiosities ? If it 's not a mistake yet , will it turn out to have been later , when those little feet begin to step into biracial identity ? Does asking these question reflect a lack of mental toughness ? A weakness of will ? Can we belong somewhere just by declaring that we do ? I used to be patient ; I used to be the person who told other black people to calm down . A black editor once led me , the new girl , on a tour of a newsroom by introducing me only to other black reporters . I remember feeling so sorry for him . I thought : It 's 1994 . What is that about ? Now it 's 2011 , and I know what it 's about . Not too long ago , I could find the humor in almost anything - even , at times , in ignorance . Even in racial ignorance , and even in racial ignorance directed at me . I don 't know where that person went . I suspect she may have been ground to dust , trying to help a succession of well - meaning , white - gloved folks hear the sound of their own quiet racism . Quiet racism , while polite and muted , can be deafening ; if I 'm having this much trouble tuning it out , I worry for my 6 - year - old , my 4 - year - old and my 2 - year - old . - Sep 13 - I grew up in a place called the Main Line , just outside Philadelphia . The Main Line isn 't a town or a school district or a county . It 's not a train line , although it got its name from a stretch of the Pennsylvania Railroad built in the 1800s . The Main Line contains a collection of towns , the same way Christie 's and Sotheby 's auction houses contain collections of jewels . It 's a loosely defined region , but more importantly it 's a state of mind , an atmosphere : of blue bloods and old money , horse shows , cricket clubs and sprawling estates . It 's the hometown of icy political spouse Betty Draper from Mad Men . When you read about or hear about the Main Line , you should imagine it being pronounced in an accent dripping with privilege , like Thurston Howell III . If you 're the daughter of black immigrant doctors and you grow up in a place like this , the pressure to act or not act a certain way can be considerable . My mother wanted us to study hard , to excel , to race to the top . Underlying those aspirations was a cardinal rule : Don 't do anything or say anything that will confirm a negative stereotype white people have about black people . Don 't be loud . Don 't be late . Don 't talk like that . Don 't walk out of the house with your hair a bushy mess or your clothes a wrinkled mess . And I don 't think I ever did . Which is why , on a sunny day in August , hoisting 3 - year - old Rose out of her car seat and into a cart at the supermarket , I froze when I realized something : My daughter had no pants on . I had scooped her up so quickly in the driveway , I hadn 't noticed she was only wearing underwear and a shirt - a tunic - cut shirt , but a shirt nonetheless . Her Hello Kitty panties were exposed for all the world to see . And all I could think about was , what kind of mother do I look like ? Or , just as likely since my daughter is so fair - skinned , what kind of babysitter do I look like ? I prayed I wouldn 't run into any neighborhood parents - which I did ( a perfectly tanned couple and their blond daughters , who had floated out of a J . Crew catalog ) . I prayed Rose wouldn 't broadcast it in her high - decibel warble - which she did , at the crowded deli counter . ( " Mommy , where are my pants ? This cart is making my butt freeze ! " ) It was the fastest market run I 'd made in years . I know all parents have these moments ( right ? right ? ) . But in that brief instant , I wasn 't just a frazzled , disorganized mom picking up last - minute ingredients for dinner . I was the black mother whose child was in a public place in her underwear . I saw myself the way Betty Draper might see me , and the feeling I got was as irrational as it was real : I hadn 't just let down my daughter and her slightly shivering backside . I had let down my entire race . I didn 't want to feel that , but I couldn 't escape feeling it . Big thanks to Fabiola Perez - Sitko , maker of the handcrafted , multicultural line of dolls fig & me for the photo above . It 's a funny story : Not wanting to use a photo of a real child in underwear , I started searching for images of dolls and landed on her blog . Then , a few minutes after my email , these words from the northern shore of Lake Superior : " I am Mexican , and my husband is Canadian of European descent . More often than not people do not associate my children with their father , and in some occasions have thought and said he had adopted them . " - Sep 7 - When kids learn a new word or phrase , they try it on . They wait for the right moment , or what they think is the right moment , and then with all the conviction they can muster , they try to make something they don 't yet understand sound like something they figured out years ago . " You can 't read my mind , Rose ! " Sky screamed one day after his sister accused him of hurting her intentionally . " You don 't even know how to read yet ! " In a weird way , the same is true of race . You can 't possibly ask a kid who doesn 't understand that reading doesn 't always mean reading to understand that brown - skinned people are actually called blacks ( except when they 're Latino ) and pink - skinned people are actually called whites ( except when they happen to be your extremely light - skinned younger sister ) . Watching Sky struggle with this , I 'm aware that part of me wishes he would never figure it out . That there was nothing to figure out in the first place . - Aug 29 - If you 're a mommy blogger and one of the people who calls you ' Mommy ' is a girl , it 's apparently your sworn duty to take to your blog and agonize over what 's been called the Princess Industrial Complex - the profit - sucking vortex of tiaras and pink tulle , of fairy - tale tea sets , glittery wands and folding deluxe castles . Show me a toddler in pink and I 'll show you a modern mother in crisis : Should I ban Cinderella for Halloween ? Can I be a feminist and read Snow White at bedtime ? My daughter 's obsessed with the handsome prince : Where did I go wrong ? ? ? Girl - culture expert Peggy Orenstein pretty much summed up the state of gender panic with her new book , Cinderella Ate My Daughter : Dispatches From the Front Lines of Girlie - Girl Culture . ( You gotta love a title that conjures up Disney and military combat in one breath . ) So far I haven 't signed up for grenade duty in this particular culture war . Yes , I cringe at Rose 's tassled princess bike , which looks like cotton candy on training wheels . But she 's just as likely to be outside catching tree frogs as she is to be riding her pink chariot ( or stealing my green eyeshadow , which she applies to her cheeks ) . What I am stressed about - what 's got me in a sick funk , like a sleepless beauty stalked by a beast across a dance floor - is the knowledge that when it comes to color in fairy tales , pink is the least of my problems . Recently , I found myself at a princess birthday party in our neighborhood . I haven 't been to many of these , but when I got there , it felt like I had walked into a princess locker room at half - time , with all the princesses shooting up steroids . There was a princess bouncy castle , princess makeup sets , princess plastic rhinestone party favors , two princess cakes and , naturally , a princess performer who sparkled as she walked . Rose was the only preschooler there who came dressed in a tshirt and pants , which should have been a sign the day wouldn 't end well . As the line of 3 - year - olds formed and the cake - cutting assembly line began , something unbelievable happened . I watched in silence , and what I witnessed chilled me to the bone : Every time the Tiana napkin came up , the mommy napkin distributor laid it aside and picked up the napkin underneath . She laid it aside , and took the napkin underneath . Aside , underneath . Aside , underneath . Do you know those scenes in Hollywood movies when a character in a crowded room has a moment of Disillusionment , when all ambient noise falls away and the action shifts to slow motion ? I always roll my eyes when movies do that . But as the pile of discarded Tiana napkins materialized on the Corian counter , I fell into my own movie . Everybody else was fine - better than fine , actually . Kids were singing Ring Around the Rosie or waving wands made from pink and purple balloons . Frosting covered my daughter 's mouth . The only dark skin in the room belonged to Tiana and me . And like her , I was gagged . Smiling , unable to speak , wishing my quiet , murderous wish upon a shooting star . i am a journalist based outside Boston . my essays , op - ed pieces and narrative features appear in print and online publications . you can find my published work at franciewrites . com . my new blog for Boston . com , The Hyphenated Life , explores issues of race and cultural identity in the news .

Peter Kalin was born and raised at Beaux Arbres , his father 's plantation in the Northern Neck of the Commonwealth of Virginia . When it was discovered that Peter liked to sleep with men , a predilection frowned upon by elite society , Beauregard Michael Kalin had only one recourse . Disowned and banished , Peter Kalin purchased a small farm of his own and unwittingly became a stationmaster on the underground railroad system . As any man , Peter could not predict where his road in life would lead , his path often determined by the decisions of others … the family patriarch , a man selling his farm , a rebellious slave , a parish minister … Robert E . Lee or President Lincoln . This is the story of Peter Kalin as he navigates his own road in 1850 's - 60 's America . How his farm had become a station , he didn 't know . Shortly after he bought the farm , just before dawn a woman knocked on his door . She asked for Mrs . Davenport and was shocked that she was no longer living there . She apologized for the intrusion and started to leave . But Peter did not return to his bed . Instead , he watched the woman sneak four people into his barn . He followed them , and when he entered , they were not to be seen . When he discovered a few bales of hay pushed aside in the rear of one of the stalls , he spied a trap door . " Y ' all better come on up out of there , " he shouted when he flipped it up . Slowly the woman and four strong ebony men emerged . They stood fearfully in a clump , not because Peter had caught them , but because his dog Rufus was at his heels and his teeth and fangs were bared . " Y ' all are runaways , aren 't you , " he asked rhetorically . " You come a long way ? " he inquired with a change in his tone . " I 'll be right back in a bit with some food for you . " He returned to the house and gathered some bowls , spoons , a large pot of freshly - made oatmeal , and some dried beef . " Here . You need some nourishment . Can 't have you on the run and starving . " That was five years ago . Since then , many groups followed the drinking gourd to his farm . All Peter asked in return was that they dig out a little more of the underground hideaway . He added some rough beds so his guests didn 't have to sleep on the ground , and always kept enough food handy to make sandwiches for his over - day guests . At night he gave them the directions to Caleb Ross 's , the next station on their route north . " Delivering a present to you from yo ' daddy . " He stepped aside , and there was Bahu . " Seems your daddy just found out who it was that made you want to like men . He was going to cut his thing off , but I suggested he send Bahu to you instead . I mean , I may not have approved of what you guys did together , but I think yo ' daddy 's ideas of punishment are a little harsh for just wanting to find a little love . " The flight wasn 't too bad once he saw the very attentive and absolutely gorgeous flight steward whose nametag said Ramón Ramirez . The uniform of dark blue Bermuda shorts , short - sleeved white oxford shirt , and dark blue bowtie revealed enough of the olive skin to make Sebastian visualize him totally naked , and he liked what he saw . Prior to take - off , Ramón was closing all the overhead storage bins and had to stand on his toes to rearrange some luggage above Sebastian 's aisle seat so the bin would lock properly . That put his crotch right in Sebastian 's face if Sebastian had been forward enough to turn his head and nuzzle . But the scent of pure manliness did tease Sebastian 's nostrils from the short distance nonetheless . " Pardon me , I should know better than to make that assumption . " He smiled the same gratuitous smile that all airline employees have when trying their best to give customers personalized service … a gentle raising of the corners of the mouth and a little flash of teeth . His were sparkling white . " What would you like ? " Sebastian silently admired the well - manicured hands of the steward . The brilliant white half - moons at the base of evenly trimmed nails contrasted with his skin tone . His arms were richly endowed with silky black hair that ended at his wrist but continued along the outside edge of his hands . Sebastian wondered if the chest was as pleasantly fuzzy , or as barren as his own chest . He had already admired the chest and nipples straining against the oxford shirt . This was stuff that fulfilled his fantasy sessions . Jason Montgomery is a wealthy businessman and martial arts instructor with a gnawing desire for the young man known as Kyle Brennon . The friendship between teacher and student quickly develops into a sizzling , turbulent relationship , and slowly but surely Jason prepares Kyle , through dominance and submission games , for a place in his unique world . For Kyle , it 's a sexual awakening like no other . For Jason , the slightest touch from his young prey weakens his self - control , and he has no idea how far and deep this will go . Jason bent down and kissed him , " You will . " It was a superior feeling to have so much power over another man . He had finally found a partner who was eager to please , and eager to satisfy him , the partner he had always longed for , and he could hardly wait to see Kyle lying submissively in front of him . Kyle felt goose bumps creeping over his body . There it was again , the undertone that conjured up all kinds of feelings within him … the undertone of the Master . He stood with his back to him , waiting for further instructions , and would only turn around when Jason ordered him to . With a quiet moan , he stared at the ceiling , begging for more composure . Jason let his shirt fall to the floor , and stood for the first time bare chested in front of Kyle , who basically fought for breath at the sight . The man was athletic , and the silver chain with the ring hung around his neck . Artful tattoos wound themselves over the right side of his chest , across his stomach , until they disappeared secretly far below . This steamy romance is available from Apple , B & N , Amazon , All Romance ebooks , and Kobo . This book is also available in print from Amazon . Our website is http : / / www . beautobeau . com . These two alpha males met with the force of a head - on collision . Sirens went off and lit up their hearts faster than a flash fire . But now that they 're living in the real world , everything isn 't as easy as anticipated . Other than their strong - willed and dominant personalities , they couldn 't be more opposite . " Branded , " Book 2 in the ' Bulletproof ' series by Jenna Galicki , is available from Amazon ( Kindle Unlimited ) . Also available in print from Amazon . Click to Purchase . Easton Thomas , a handsome and wealthy man with a generous heart , owns an historic mansion on Florida 's Gold Coast , a house filled with spirits and secrets from the past . When a hurricane grounds all flights and cruise ship connections , Easton invites a group of stranded passengers to ride out the storm at his mansion . He is drawn to Randy , a shy and insecure man from Atlanta , but Mitchell , Easton 's longtime companion and estate manager , has different plans for Easton . Mitchell buttoned his shirt and made his way to the center railing overlooking the downstairs entry . " Easton , is that you ? " He could see what looked like a crowd gathered near the front entry casually dropping suitcases and bags . " Did you pick up a tour bus before your cruise ? " he asked sarcastically , trying to contain his anger . " Easton , a word please . This is a bad time to have a house full of guests . These people are not stray cats that you found on the highway . They are adults caught up in the same shitty mess as the rest of South Florida , so why do you feel responsible for them ? " Mitchell hissed . " I guess for the same reason I have always felt responsible for you , " Easton smiled , and his eyes glowed in the soft light . He took Mitchell in his arms and kissed him . " We have an ample supply of backup candles and flashlights in the cellar closet . Do you mind bringing them upstairs in case we lose power ? I will move the cars to the garage . I don 't want them damaged , " Easton said . Mitchell opened the door and headed out into the fierce wind and rain . He secured the vehicles , closed the garage door , and started up the side stairs to the second floor . He reached the door to the apartment that had initially served as the living quarters for the chauffeurs , stepped inside , and closed the door . " Where are you ? " Mitchell whispered . He saw the shadow emerge cautiously from the adjacent room . " I 'm here . I was beginning to worry . I considered leaving , but I wouldn 't make it very far in this weather . Why did Easton come back ? I thought he would be away for a couple of weeks . " " It 's this storm . The flights are grounded and he brought a group of stranded passengers with him to ride out the storm . You will have to stay here until it 's clear to leave . " " How can I do that ? There is no food here , and I cannot get cell service . Maybe we should let Easton know I 'm here . " " Absolutely not ! Easton made it clear that you were not to come back here . I have no intention of being out on the street on my ass at this time in my life . I have too much to lose . I 'll bring you coffee and food before everyone wakes in the morning , so just take it easy . " Mitchell leaned in and kissed him . " Goodnight , and try to be patient . " " Stranded Spirits , " gay romance and murder mystery by David Edmondson , is available from Amazon ( KDP Select ) . Click to Purchase . Also available in print from Amazon . Our website is http : / / www . beautobeau . com . A spur - of - the - moment vacation was supposed to jolt Cameron Douglas out of his funk , but it appears he only traded locations . It was a chance meeting with a handsome stranger that changed everything . Brandon stirs Cameron 's interest and his heart , but will the mysterious man reveal his true identity before their vacation in paradise is over ? Sometimes life in the spotlight was a heavy weight to bear for Brandon Bullet . He never knew if men were interested in him as a person or just enamored with his rock star status - until he meets Cameron Douglas . It wasn 't often that Brandon shared a connection with someone who wasn 't aware of his notoriety . He 's determined to keep his identity a secret while the two of them get to know each other and before someone blows his cover . Cam playfully rolled his eyes before he took a swig of his beer and placed it on the table next to the bed . He kicked off his flip - flops , lay down on the left side of the mattress and laced his hands behind his head . He stared up at the curtain draped across the top of the cabana without the slightest bit of unease . Brandon joined him . They had met less than twenty minutes ago , and now they were lying next to one another , inches apart , on a bed on the beach . It was absurd and hot as hell . Cam smiled , shifted onto his side and propped his head up on his elbow . His warm , brown eyes twinkled like melted chocolate in the glare of the afternoon sun . " Do me a favor . Take that knot out of your hair . " Brandon didn 't need any further prompting . He sat up and unraveled the elastic that held his hair in place . His blond curls cascaded down his back and over one shoulder . The soft breeze lifted a strand and blew it across his face as he turned to see Cam 's reaction . Cam took the stray lock and tucked it behind Brandon 's ear . The smile on Cam 's face was full of allure and sent Brandon 's heart racing . His eyes rested on Cam 's gorgeous , plump lips . On any other day , with any other man , Brandon would have sucked on that bottom lip three minutes after they had met . He was waiting for the right moment to kiss Cam , and he was unsure about why he was hesitating . " The Undercover Rock Star , " Book 1 in the ' Bulletproof ' series , a new series by Jenna Galicki , is available from Amazon ( Kindle Unlimited ) . Click to Purchase . Also available in print from Amazon . " Well , go shower . I 'm going to grab a quick nap . Wake me when you 're ready to go to dinner . " Ross went to his bunk as Julian stripped , grabbed a towel , and entered the shower . A few moments later , Julian hollered to Ross , " Hey guy , you got some soap ? I didn 't pack any and there ain 't none in here . " " Damn , you 're a hairy one , " Ross said . " Good thing your Emily didn 't let you get very far . She 'd be spitting out pubic hair more than doing anything else . You want some help there ? " " I guess I was wrong . Sorry . " Ross returned to his cot and hoped Julian didn 't notice what he was sporting . Ross was disappointed in himself . He had vowed to follow the straight path now that he was starting a new life away from the life he had led in rural Georgia , and all the peers he had secretly been with . He knew he had to work harder on suppressing his innate desires . He fell asleep , but his mind conjured up a dream of him with the man he had just met . " The Rodeo Rider , " an erotic cowboy romance novel by Duncan More , is available from Amazon in ebook and paperback format . Click Here or on Cover Above to Purchase . Our website is http : / / www . beautobeau . com . February 25 , 2016 Posted by Live Your Dreams | Jessi Blade is a lucky girl . With animosity behind them , she and Angel share a more intimate relationship and their lives flourish . She has everything she ever wanted - except a baby . Tommy went for Jessi like an animal pouncing on his prey . He took her by the waist and pushed her back on the bed . His mouth was on hers , and his tresses fell like a curtain of golden silk . It prevented Angel from seeing the expression on their faces . It was one of the things he loved most about watching them . He tucked Tommy 's hair behind one ear so the silhouette of their faces was visible . Tommy 's lips covered Jessi 's , and his chest swelled with passion . There were little wrinkles between his brows which grew deeper when he pressed his mouth harder and turned it in a slow circle . Jessi sighed and threw her head back as Tommy kissed his way down to her breasts . He ran his hands over her slender torso and kissed her waist . Jessi shuddered when his lips hit the area just below her navel . Tommy abruptly sat back on his knees and yanked Jessi toward him . There was no hesitation or resistance as Jessi inhaled deeply and arched her back . Tommy gripped her hips and dug his fingers into her pelvis . His hair bounced and fanned his face . Glimpses of pouting , slightly - parted lips and a furrowed brow were visible between the flaxen strands of his long hair . Jessi 's arms flailed wildly , and her breath came in heavy gasps . Bliss and ecstasy were clear across her face . Angel wondered what sex was like for a woman and if all women enjoyed it as much as Jessi . " Punk Rock - A - Bye Baby , " Book Five in the Radical Rock Stars series , and a MUST READ by Jenna Galicki , is available from Amazon ( Kindle Unlimited ) . Also available in print from Amazon . Click Here to Purchase Ky ' ren , Ke ' ta , and their chosen mates , continue the galactic exploration started by their fathers as they discover several new friendly races . The adage , ' you can 't tell a book by its cover , ' holds true for the aliens they meet . The more formidable looking the race , the more likely they were to be teddy bears . Never in their wanderings did they expect to encounter the Gods of the Universe , but they did . They never expected to find the end of time either , but they did . Or was it a prelude to a beginning ? Initially nothing happened , and then his eyes opened and he scanned his surroundings . A few seconds later , he moved his arms , flexed his fingers , and sat up . He did some side twists before getting down off the work table . It looked like he was doing bend and stretch exercises , which in a way , he was . He needed to test the limits of his movements . After five minutes of these ' exercises , ' he dressed himself with the clothing Del ' fra had laid out . He smoothed his clothing into place and smiled at us before speaking . Patuka and I kept up our kissing as others popped into the lounge . We weren 't the only ones hungry for pleasure . After our second climax , we relaxed and cuddled , enjoying our closeness , before we circulated among the other writhing bodies . I was always in awe of Torcano . He made an art form of sex . It was a joy to watch him . For my part , I had lost track of who I had sex with , at least nearly everyone . I was lying there trying to catch my breath when Patuka wanted more . When I opened my eyes , it looked like most everyone was gone . The last of the Eo ' hala crew were leaving , and blew a kiss to us . The sex party was well appreciated , and much needed . Patuka and I weren 't finished , though . We adjourned to our quarters for a nice , long , sensual , relaxing shower before we went to bed . As usual , we went to sleep in each other 's arms . The next morning at breakfast , Nolforn sat down across from me . " That was an entertaining event last night . It gave me a lot of new insight into interpersonal relationships . Everyone seemed to enjoy having sex with many people , but I noticed that when some of the couples had sex together , there was more animation and happiness - you and Patuka , for example . Is that because you are bonded ? " " I didn 't know you were there , Nolforn . Yes , we do enjoy lots of sex , but with our bond mates , it 's so much more . The love between bonded lovers is deeper and more intense . " " Legacy of the Emissary , " science fiction novel by Kiel Bei , is available from Amazon . Read free with Amazon Prime . Click Here or on Cover Above to Purchase Also enjoy " Phobos Nocturne " by Kiel Bei , available from Amazon . J . D . didn 't miss what he didn 't have , including family . He barely remembered his mother and had never known his father . Following the death of his grandfather , he becomes the neighborhood pass - around - kid , raised by a group of caring church members . Ethan was a P . K . , Preacher 's Kid , out of Tampa . I had been around other Preacher 's Kids , some of whom were so restricted they did nothing but rebel and lash out . Ethan was just the opposite . There was a goodness that came out of him naturally . He was as caring , honest , and kind as he was cute , and that guy was a whole bucket fulla cute . Ethan was quite the total package and made a damn fine looking soldier . The beginning of fall had come to the southern base where we were stationed , and we could see that some leaves had begun to change as we walked slowly through the night together . In the darkness , we had not seen clouds gathering above us . The skies suddenly opened , a gusting wind pushing the falling rain over us in waves . I was content to cavort like a fool in the downpour , but Ethan , who was very good about letting me be silly , quickly pushed us off the sidewalk to a barracks we were near and into an open doorway . We stood looking at the rain for a moment , waiting for it to let up , with me grinning at Ethan . Ethan cut me off while I was speaking . " Stop . You don 't know me , man . " Ethan was suddenly dead serious , his face tightening and going dark . " I 'm not the good guy you all think I am . " There was a moment of silence between us as I took in this new side to my buddy that I had never seen . Then just as suddenly , the Ethan I knew came back to the surface , " Hey , " he said , his warm smile back on his face , " you 've never told me about your life . " I just gave him a shrug . " It 's all I knew , " I said . " Besides , Bob and Tina weren 't all that bad . They were just doing what they knew . " We sat for a few more minutes before I found the courage to say what I had been waiting to say . " Ethan , I , I 'm in love with you , " I finally stuttered out . There was a long pause . Ethan stared blankly straight ahead into the rain before standing . We had been in the niche for about two hours by then , but it seemed only seconds because I was with him . " Key Maneuvered " by James Brock , a gay romance novel set in the deeply religious , evangelical Bible belt , is available exclusively from Amazon . Click Here or on Cover Above to Purchase . Also available in print from Amazon . Cover art by Syneca Featherstone , http : / / www . syneca - originalsyn . com . He killed for fun under the guise of a soldier , oblivious to the truth of his own identity . At all online retailers … twitter . com / i / web / status / 8 … 1 month ago

Damn , I 'd say it 's time for something light , fluffy and frothy around here , wouldn 't you ? What we have here is the new " head " of the U . S . five - cent coin , beginning with nickels issued into circulation today . The article I initially cribbed the pictures from ( I 'd link it , but it 's AOL so about 95 % of you couldn 't access it ) called it an " Extreme Makeover " for our Mr . Jefferson . How wonderfully au courant of them , no ? You might think they could have botoxed the crows feet a little for him if they were going to go that far . It 's nice to know that he did , in fact , have a right side to his face and that , since we can no longer see it , we don 't have to wonder what color the ribbon on his little ponytail was . For an article on the changes and such , please go here . The " tail " of the nickel is also changing , and this is the first new image : Would someone please tell me whether this is a buffalo or a bison ? The article says , " The backs of the coins depict the American bison , familiarly known as the buffalo . " However , I was pretty sure that they were actually different animals , and that bison we still have but buffalo we don 't because we were stupid way back when and hunted them out of existence right out from under the native Americans . So is it the bison of today or the buffalo of yesterday that is pictured ? Anyone else childishly amused that they didn 't emasculate the poor thing and actually have a little doo - dad ( don 't know what you call them on buffalo / bison ) where there 's supposed to be a doo - dad ? I would think it 's the American Way to turn him into Buffalo Ken . . . accessories sold separately . Hey , is this discussion making anyone else crave a bucket of Buffalo wings right about now ? I 'll bring the bleu cheese dressing . First off , I wanted to say thank you all for your comments over the last couple days . Even the ones on the post with no words , even if I didn 't sound all that appreciative yesterday . They were all pretty funny , but I guess I wasn 't in the mood to fully appreciate them just yet . I 'm still not feeling terribly perky about things , but the weekend is here and I 'll get over it . In the meantime , however , I 'll share the funk I was in earlier today . I read this article by one Michael Gorman , whose condescension made me see red for a little while . So , with apologies to Emma Lazarus , but none to Michael Gorman : With quiet fingers . Give me your weary , your disillusioned , Your unpublishable masses yearning to write free , The untrammeled refuse of your ivory tower . Send these , the " Blog People , " media - belittled to me . I lift my laptop beside the golden browser ! I find this man 's posture annoying , though not surprising . And I certainly find the manner in which he characterizes bloggers , lumping us all together in a grammar - less , useless , meaningless , unworthy heap he terms " Blog People " to be lacking in both grace and intelligence . How many times do you think Mr . Gorman has " Googled " himself to actually see what reaction , if any , the " Blog People " have had to his patronizing missive ? High irony , indeed , if he has . You know what , Mr . Gorman ? Not all of us " Blog People " think Googleness is next to godliness . I 've written before about how I came late to the Google party , and I certainly do not ascribe to it attributes or benefits it does not have . To many of us , Google is a tool , nothing more . And those of us who know how to use it do not find that the results are " in no very useful order . " Perhaps that is whence your problem stems . You may not be a Luddite , but perhaps you are simply not computer - literate enough or , more accurately , Internet - literate enough , to get meaningful results out of what is a valuable tool . To suggest that it is anything else is , as you put it , " absurd . " Your obvious attempt to marginalize us by giving us , as a grPinged by Hmm , what to do on a night when there is still a week until Amazing Race 7 starts and there 's nothing much on TV ? That 's right , go play some trivia ! Last week we discovered that there is a trivia contest at my favorite local restaurant each Tuesday , but we weren 't able to stay and play at the time . We went back tonight to see how well we could fare at QuizBang , which I saw described as " a tournament of knowledge , music , skill and speed , " and I 'd say that is fairly accurate . I won 't go into the details of how it all works , but there are a bunch of rounds and you play in teams to answer 40 questions . I love trivia games and I 'm generally pretty good at them ; I 'm the kind of person who really enjoys things like Trivial Pursuit and Jeopardy . I didn 't earn the moniker " Queen of Random Shit " for nothing , you know . For something like this , when you play with someone else you usually have the advantage of combined knowledge . Well , I think you need a whole tableful of people to have a chance at covering the breadth of topics the questions touch on . Some of the questions were hard ! For instance , do you know what city the Jetsons live in ? Or which terrorist claimed that the U . S . Army had implanted a chip in his butt in order to control his mind ? Or who completed the first successful heart transplant ? Or what instrument Django Reinhardt is famous for playing ? Well , neither did we . But if you did . . . what are you doing next Tuesday ? It seemed as though there was nothing but bad news today . Not that I had time to read much of it during the day , but the headlines were pretty sobering whenever I looked . Honestly , when I first scanned the headlines in the morning , I had to stop and consider whether it was some cruel April Fool 's Day or something . ( I 'm not at my sharpest first thing in the morning , okay ? ) Sandra Dee died . John Raitt died . Killer mudslides in Southern California . Hunter S . Thompson committed suicide . Killer bird flu for humans could be on the way . Aerosmith 's Steven Tyler and his wife are separating . Killer avalanches in India . Personal data security breach bigger than first thought . Killer ferry disaster in Bangladesh . Poor Paris Hilton 's address book was hacked and spread around the Web . And then , just as I 'm getting ready to start my post tonight : Killer earthquake in Iran . Wow . Welcome to Morose Monday . The one bright spot in the " news " today ? Peri is , in fact , the official Espresso Sarcasm Mascot ! If you have a chance , be sure to go over and share your joy at this news with Norman . I can 't speak for him , but I can sincerely say that this is a dream come true for me . So , another week has come and gone , and what have we learned ? Well , I have learned that either : a ) No one enjoys the same music that I do ; b ) No one thinks what I 've been doing here this week is all that amusing ; orc ) No one pays all that much attention when they 're here each day . Another option , I suppose , would be d ) All of the above . It 's kind of no fun when you 're playing a game and no one else is playing along . But if I told you what the game is , there would be no game . I hope that 's cryptic enough to make you take another look and see what you 've missed . But many of you were paying attention yesterday and today and turned out in force over at Norman 's for the Cutest Kitten contest . You did a fabulous job and I 'm hoping that there will be good news to share tomorrow . Many thanks to everyone who voted , especially one super - special person whose inimitable style , cleverness , and persistence are greatly appreciated . She knows who she is and she has both my admiration and gratitude . I suppose that wouldn 't buy her so much as a cup of coffee most places , but if I ever get the chance , the honor would be mine to buy her a cup . . . or three . Those of you who have been coming here for any length of time will no doubt recognize this face : For any of you who are a bit newer , alllow me to introduce my family 's cat , Peri . She doesn 't live with me ( she lives with my mom ) , so I don 't get to see her every day and , honestly , the sight of that little face makes me melt every time I see this shot . She is our first cat , and the memories of those early days when every new thing she did was a delight and you had a bunch of adults falling over themselves to please a handful of fur are very happy ones . This picture brings that back for me the best . So , why am I mentioning all this ? Well , the delightful Michele has taken over as guest blogger at Norman 's this week and , being a woman after my own heart , she has infused that bastion of anti - cat , anti - cute sentiment with a welcome sunbeam of sweetness . She has created The Softer Side of Espresso Sarcarsm , where readers have submitted the cutest cat pictures they could find . I have submitted this picture of Peri , as well as one of Squeaky and another cat doing the cute thing . On that site , there 's a contest going on , but not just any contest . Yes , folks , starting now and going until midnight ( ET ) on Friday , you can help me win a highly coveted Nubbie award ; an honor that is a one - of - a - kind , certainly never - to - be - repeated . . . EVER opportunity . Not only that , but the winning cat will become Norman 's Mascot Kitty ! I get a little weak just thinking about it . . . the same way I 'm sure Norman does , but for completely different reasons . So please share a little love for my favorite fuzz - face and go here to leave a comment under the entry with Peri 's picture above . I suggest " Peri sent me , " but you 're free to go your own way . The cat with the most comments by the cutoff time wins . Michele has decreed " Vote early and often . . . " so get over there as much as you can and make it happen ! I 'm in love . It happened so suddenly and so unexpectedly that it has left me a little breathless . I was just going along , doing the things one does with one 's evening when one doesn 't really have anything one is actually supposed to be doing . Among them was going to the grocery store , pretty much to see what there was to see and to pick up a few things that probably weren 't necessary but since I had the time to go I figured I would . Who knew I 'd walk in to my local Safeway with no expectations apart from a few good buys and maybe finding a penny or two on the floor at the cash registers , and walk out with the world at my feet ? Certainly not I . After walking up and down almost every aisle without much to show for my efforts , I went to check on whether my household 's favorite ice cream novelty was still on sale , since I intended to eat the last one when I got home . And it 's just not nice to do that without at least trying to get more for everyone else , right ? To my consternation , however , they were no longer on sale . I stood there , hand on hip , an ironic yet frustrated smile gracing my face , when a very nice man walked by and chuckled at my expression . He stopped and I learned that he mistook my grin as being overwhelmed by the pretty impressive selection . We chatted and I explained why I was smiling while staring at the spot on the freezer shelf where the sale sign should have been . And that 's when it happened . My heart stopped and the world shrunk down to the wonder I suddenly saw before me . . . No , no , not him , he had moved on and , nice as he seemed , my attention was elsewhere . My eye was drawn to a sale tag in the adjacent freezer - - there it was , the one I 'd been waiting for all my life . The perfect Ben & Jerry 's flavor , Chocolate Therapy , a new limited - edition flavor that I personally believe was conjured right out of my dreams . My hand trembled a bit as I pulled open the door and reached for my piece of personal Nirvana . Being shameless , we went home together and I dove right in . Who says there 's no such thing as heaPinged by I 'm going to guess that you probably did not watch Dr . Phil 's " Romance Rescue " tonight . And for that I commend you . But I decided that I was going to suck up any distaste and watch and report on it since I felt a tad responsible after mentioning it a couple times and having so many people come by here because of it . I don 't know how likely it is that very many of those people will be coming back , but once you make a commitment to something as silly as this , you might as well stick with it . Really , having Jonathan and Victoria take part was like the fluffy , but defensive , cream filling in the Oreo of this show . They were stuck in the middle between two other segments - - though those were broken up to spin out the non - existent suspense - - and were more or less the draw to make the cardboard - like parts seem more interesting . ( I should note that I 'm not a huge Oreo fan , so this analogy makes perfect sense to me . ) The other two segments consisted of a recently engaged couple who is already on the rocks , and a woman who just can 't seem to find Mr . Right . I could tell you a lot more , but it broke down to the couple being afraid of each losing something ( her : him , him : sex ) and needing a second chance to start the engagement over , and Ms . Right was a control freak who froze up on dates . Not surprisingly , Dr . Phil made everything hunky - dory for them in the end . With Jonathan and Victoria , however , it seemed more like an attempt at damage control for them - - they weren 't there to have Dr . Phil " rescue " them . We had the standard Jonathan quotes , " I 'm not the person that I 've been portrayed [ sic ] , " and the person we saw on the show was a " heightened version " of him , not a reflection of his " true character . " Of course , this was all interspersed with clips of them being kissy kissy kissy kissy in order to really show the " softer side of their relationship , " as Victoria put it . The best bit of double - talk from him was when Dr . Phil asked how he could have treated Victoria that way over the infamous backpack shove incident . He said , vePinged by That seems like a good one to start with . We 'll see how long it takes for someone to figure out what I 'm talking about . So , another solo Valentine 's Day has been survived by yours truly . If you can 't understand why I use the word " survived , " I ask you to read this article . If you don 't understand after reading it , this may not be the blog for you . How have we come back around to the point where " A woman on her own . . . is simply unnerving , " can you tell me ? Divorce shouldn 't be stigmatized , so I 'm glad that is changing but , geez , don 't cast me in the role of some sort of a new - age spinster and make assumptions about who I am because I don 't " conform to the same shape " your life has taken . Please . ( After all , I may be " weird " but I am also polite . ) In case you didn 't know it , today was also International Quirkyalone Day . Never heard of Quirkyalone ? For most of you , I 'm not terribly surprised . Why would you ? You 're probably neither quirky nor alone . But if you are , here is my greeting to you today : Suddenly , March 1 seems just so far away and I find myself in need of an Amazing Race fix . 1 . Freddy and Kendra were on Live with Regis and Kelly today . Thanks to the wonder that is TiVo , I got the thrill of seeing it without even trying . ( I couldn 't care enough to tape their appearance on the Early Show on Wednesday . ) As soon as they got settled atop the stools , Kendra 's hand shot out and landed high up on Freddy 's thigh . I think he decided that wasn 't the place for it to be on national TV , so he grabbed her hand and moved it out of harm 's way , and kept it clutched in his the whole rest of the time . We got the story of how they met , how Freddy decided she was the woman for him , blah blah blah , and got insight into their strategy for the Race . Did you know that their plan was to play low - key , not to be too aggressive and thereby not always try to push their way to the front but just " not be last . " So , in other words , they only let the other teams think they were in contention , but really these two masterminded it so that no one saw them as huge threats . Gee , guess if they had a plan that clever , they deserved to win . ( Can you tell I 'm still just a little bitter over the result of this season ? ) And , oh , it had to happen . Just as they were about to wrap it up , Regis jokingly offered Freddy another million dollars to repeat his Hungarian soup adventure . Kendra , true to form , immediately turned and offered him what I think is the only encouragement she knows : Go , baby ! 2 . Isn 't this such a nice picture of three of the final four couples ? There 's Kris , with her ever - present perkiness , Jon with his never - fail smile . Aaron doesn 't quite look like himself there , but he and Hayden obviously haven 't imploded under the weight of her hysteria . He looks highly amused by Adam 's glasses . And Rebecca , honey , open - mouthed laughs are fine , but ditch the gum . Cattiness aside , it 's a nice shot , and clearly everyone is having just a wonderful time . But you know what 's coming , don 't you ? Mmm - hmm , you see that bit of camel coat and you can juPinged by April pointed out on Saturday that this Smash Mouth song , which we were listening to at the time , would be the perfect title for this final Amazing Race 6 post . She was right , but actually , yeah , I have had more than enough of you " baby . " This two - hour episode almost broke my resolve to keep counting , there were so freaking many of them . But first let 's take it back to Shanghai . ( This spot reserved for the obligatory comment about Bolo completely mangling the name of the next city , Xi ' an , China , at the start . We miss you , Bolo . ) The remaining four teams set out for the final elimination leg with a pretty strong - looking Hayden and Aaron leading the way , followed by Freddy and Kendra , then Kris and Jon , with Adam and Rebecca once again bringing up the rear . ( Insert your own joke here . ) - I thought maybe I was the only one who remembered this movie , but while they were spray - painting the car shell Adam said , " I feel like Michael Keaton in ' Gung Ho . ' " It was the first time I had really a warm and fuzzy feeling toward P - boy . ( I 'm not going to repeat what I called him a few episodes back , because it resulted in some really . . . um . . . interesting Web searches . ) - I didn 't keep track of who did which Roadblocks throughout the Race , so maybe Aaron couldn 't have done the one that involved the keys and what appeared to be thousands of locks . But , given the state Hayden had worked herself into , having her do it seemed like a mistake right off the bat . I 've never seen a team skip a challenge and take a four - hour penalty , but they looked like they had just had enough . Because Rebecca found her lock at just about the last possible moment , that move cost them a spot in the final three . But all was not lost . In a rather unusual Pit Stop moment , Aaron and Hayden edged out Rebecca and Adam to the mat , but then got eliminated . Before we could recover from that , Aaron shocked everyone by taking to one knee and proposing to Hayden . Even Phil welled up a bit when , speechless , she accepted . - I was really nervous about the ability of my new best friend , Adam , to do the final Roadblock . As Phil so kindly pointed out during the initial recap , Adam 's fears had held the team up a number of times along the way . So as soon as he said he was going to do the sky diving , I envisioned a mile - high anxiety attack . Lo and behold , he had this look of utter determination on his face and he leaped out of that plane with nary a " Tell my mother I love her ! " ( Well , that we saw , as my brother pointed out . ) - What to say about Kendra ? Apart from that she 's $ 500 , 000 richer now , that is . I was disappointed that she and Freddy won , because I think Kris and Jon were the better team in so many ways . But Kendra did have more memorable lines , tonight and throughout . Nothing could ever top her " it 's like they choose to live this way " comment ( which they also thoughtfully showed again at the outset ) but there were a few gems tonight . Such as when she declared that she and Freddy weren 't " going to be the nice , sweet people " they had been up to that point . I 'm sorry , was she talking about the same Race I was watching ? And when she suddenly turned on the waterworks at the airport in Japan to try to get on an earlier flight , wailing " I have a sick child in Honolulu ! " For me , the oddest was her sudden new proclivity to cast Freddy as a super hero . As he landed in the water after sky diving , she sang out , " Come to me , Superman ! " and referred to him multiple times as her " little hero . " But things reached their crescendo at the very end when Freddy declared that " Kendra is the most perfect human soul . . . for me . " Thank you for that clarifier , bud , because I was about to lose my pizza , even though it wasn 't deep dish . Oh , there were many others , but it 's time to face that it 's over and there 's nothing left to do but add up the " babies " and " honeys . " Yes , it 's the final version of the Official One Ping Only AR6 " Baby " Count ™ . As I mentioned , there were a whole lot of them , as we had the top three serial offenders in these last two hours . ( Rebecca , wisely , chose to not use any endearments on Adam this time out . ) So take a deep breath with me and ride out this storm of affection to its thrilling conclusion ! But wait ! There 's more ! It may not be possible for this number to be surpassed next season - - which starts on March 1 - - but in the preview for AR7 , they showed one contestant letting out one big ole " Yeah , baby ! " so there is a glimmering chance . Which means . . . we 'll be back ! Before I get to the point of this particular post ( should there actually be one ) , a little note for the oodles of peoples who have been coming here looking for information on the upcoming Dr . Phil special , " Romance Rescue , " featuring this blog 's favorite dysfunctional couple , the ELIMINATED Jonathan and Victoria from The Amazing Race 6 : The show is on February 15th , on CBS , 9 p . m . ET / PT . Check your local listings . ( I 've always wanted to say that . ) Go here for the CBS page with info and a video preview . My weekend was a pastiche of football , food and naps , mixed in with a little shopping , a few errands and some quality Internet surfing time . The football wasn 't just The Semi - Super Bowl , though . Saturday night we went to see the home opener for the San Jose SaberCats , our Arena Football team . Okay , well , some people may have been there to see the SaberKittens . I can 't blame them , because those are some fine cheerleaders . ( They 've certainly got the now - defunct " Anorexic Girls " of the San Jose Stealth beat , both in talent and hotness , sorry girls . ) Sadly , their page does not yet have kitten photos up yet - - a form of kitty blogging that I think even Norman could have * ahem * gotten behind - - but check back soon and see if you can tell the difference between Kristi , Kristen and Kristina ! Anyway , the SaberCats are the defending ArenaBowl Champions and they kicked the behinds of the visiting team from Las Vegas . The game was good , but I was tired after a point ( the beer with dinner did me in ) , so I took a nap for a little while during the third quarter - - yes , it appears I really can sleep anywhere . But it got me refreshed for the free concert that followed from hometown band Smash Mouth . They were pretty good , and I think their upcoming new album will be successful based on the new songs we heard . I felt a little bad for them when they did " Walkin ' on the Sun , " because the bunch of kids they brought up on stage didn 't know the words and the lead singer obviously expected that they would ! But , I think they were a little too young - - most of them were just out of diapers when that song was a monster hit . And , I might add , a seminal song of the 90s , in my opinion . You have no doubt read and heard all you need to know about the Super Bowl and the mostly lame ads , so I 'll pretty much skip over that . . . other than to mention that I took a nice nap in the third quarter of that game , too . Oh , well , actually , it started during the halftime show , but I guess that 's really no surprise . I roused myself in time for the food , of course . We had some lovely crudités , crackers and cheese , including some herb - and nut - crusted goat cheese balls I made ( I love those things ) , and Burns - style chili , then topped it off with a delicious lemon Bundt cake . That probably doesn 't sound like traditional football fare , but it worked for us . Again , thanks to those of you who submitted entries for the reality show contest , and to those who expressed interest in general . It was fun to see what people came up with and I hope to do it again soon , with a different theme . Next time I 'll leave a little more time for sending in entries . You 'll just have to put up with more reminders ! So . There were some very diverse ideas , and each of them was unique and took totally different spins on the genre . But in the end , choosing the winner was the easiest part of the whole shebang . I guess there 's no need to draw this out any longer - - I 'll let the results and the spotlighted entries speak for themselves . . . . Ann ! Her entry , Wrongfully Accused , * wowed the judges and unanimously took the top honors . It 's a show we love the idea of and we would be interested in seeing how it could be brought to . . . uh . . . reality ? Congratulations ! Taking the First Prize is . . . April ! If it made it onto the air I know I wouldn 't last a single episode on her show , which I dubbed In the Chips , but it would certainly be an education . We could really picture the whole concept and see how the mechanics of getting to a winner would work . Nice job ! There are two other entries I want to spotlight , because they were creative and interesting , and they made the judging challenging ! The first one is from Grins . Her show , which I think of as The Chat Boat , could be the Temptation Island of the high seas . Last , but most certainly not least , is Trading Everything from Fat Dude . His is a funky combination of pure originality and unabashedly cribbed elements from a host of actual shows . Compelling as it was , it 's actually a good thing he didn 't win this , because it could have blown his mojo for the far cooler contest he won today . Go wish him a great trip to party like a rock star in El Lay . * Boring stuff : 1 . The ideas expressed in the entries linked here are the copywrited property of the participants who submitted them . So don 't even try to steal them . E - mail them nicely and offer them lots of money . 2 . If you don 't have Adobe Acrobat and want to read any or all of the entries posted here , e - mail me and I can send them in Word . 3 . Ladies , I 'll be in touch soon to get your prizes to you . Where has everyone gone ? Sixty - seven people stopped by today and no one but cbeck had anything to say ? Wow . Hope you 're all off doing something interesting . ( And thanks , cbeck . ) Tonight I went out for dinner at one of my favorite local restaurants , Pasta Pomodoro . Have you ever gone to a restaurant that you 've been to a hundred times before and , all of a sudden , they change the menu ? That 's what I encountered tonight . Usually I walk in there already knowing what I 'm going to have because I know . . . I mean , knew . . . the menu like the back of my hand . ( I should mention that I eat out quite frequently , and this place is a real standby . ) The menu available at the link is the old one . Now it 's really , really different . I was thrown for such a loop that it took me a very long time to decide what to have . In the end I decided to try two things from their new " small plates " selections to make a meal . I happen to love Brussel sprouts , and they have a neat new dish where they 're seared and it 's absolutely delicious . ( Has anyone else noticed that Brussel sprouts are showing up a lot more on menus lately ? ) It was a nice surprise ; if they added a little bacon to it , it would be just about perfect . I combined that with some simple spinach and ricotta ravioli in pomodoro sauce ( ravioli di magro ) . Perhaps an unusual pairing , but it really worked together and I was very well - sated in the end . The waitress was really cool about my floundering around the new menu and before we left she made a point of giving me one of the to - go menus to take with me so I 'd be prepared next time . ( Look , Kendra ! I 'm doing research ! ! ) Good way to get a nice tip . Anyway , we topped the evening off by renting Harold & Kumar Go to White Castle . What a funny freaking movie ! I 'd heard that it was , of course , and meant to go see it while it was in theaters but just never got there . I 'm kind of glad I didn 't , though , because I think I would have embarassed myself if I 'd watched it in public . The movie gave me a real craving . For , um . . . burgers , naturally . Good thing I was already full from dinner . Though I probably could have gone for a Krispy Kreme run . Can 't wait ' til the new one opens here next month or so , as it will be a lot more accessible for late - night munchies . Ahhh , bliss in a box . This is one of those rare times when I find that I have little to say . I had a mostly crappy day at work and , while the evening was better , nothing crossed my path to inspire me much . So perhaps it 's more like I have stuff to say , but it 's not really worth saying . Over the Road - Go over and take in a few tales from Trucker Bob , who has crisscrossed this continent and has boatloads truckloads of stories to share about that life . This and this are particular favorites of mine . I think with a little encouragement , we can get him to bust out a few more anecdotes that will make us all wish we had been along for the ride . And no , I 'm not just sending you there because he said nice things about me . My brother - - Whose generosity , it should be noted , actually makes One Ping Only possible and whose ongoing support contributes to its continued life . If this were Hollywood , he 'd probably get an Executive Producer credit . But it 's not . So he won 't . - - commented early on that he missed hearing Bolo destroy the name of whichever city they would be headed out to from the Pit Stop , and it really hit me that a lot of the fun had gone out of the game with their departure . No more barbarian insults . No more adventures in counting . No more implant jokes . They were the last of the teams with real personality that wasn 't defined just by bickering . Oh , and I miss their bickering , too . So I 'm feeling a little like , " Okay , let 's get it over with , hand Kris and Jon the money and look forward to next season with Amber and Boston Rob . " That fleeting wish almost got a little closer to being impossible as Team Smiley faced a barrage of dreadful cab drivers in China and came very close to going from first to last . . . not to mention almost getting creamed by a bus while running across a traffic - filled street on the dash to the Pit Stop . They edged out Rebecca and Adam , who were spared by a non - elimination round . At least I was right in one of my predictions , since Kendra wasn 't the offending honeymeister tonight , it was Rebecca of all people . I think she took her decision to continue playing along as Adam 's girlfriend a little too much to heart and went overboard with the endearments at the Detour . As much as I sometimes want to smack her a little because she ever got into that relationship in the first place , I do admire her spunk . When Adam chastised her for the third time about calling him " honey , " she shot back , " All right , ass . " - The Dr . Phil " Romance Rescue " commercial featuring Jonathan and Victoria , where Dr . Phil asks Jonathan , " Are you a jerk ? Is that who you are ? " Did the look on Jonathan 's face say " YES ! " to anyone else ? And now , the penultimate edition of the Official One Ping Only AR6 " Baby " Count ™ , which was almost evenly divided among " babies " and " honeys " this week , thanks to Rebecca 's and Adam 's efforts . As a bonus , there was a sweetheart thrown into the mix , but that doesn 't actually get counted . We have to have some sort of standards around here , you know . I 'm in the middle of changing the design here , so please bear with me . I 'll keep tinkering with it until I get it to where I like it . Hopefully you will , too . At the moment , comments aren 't working , which frustrates me greatly . I 'll get those up as soon as I can figure it out .

Damn , I 'd say it 's time for something light , fluffy and frothy around here , wouldn 't you ? What we have here is the new " head " of the U . S . five - cent coin , beginning with nickels issued into circulation today . The article I initially cribbed the pictures from ( I 'd link it , but it 's AOL so about 95 % of you couldn 't access it ) called it an " Extreme Makeover " for our Mr . Jefferson . How wonderfully au courant of them , no ? You might think they could have botoxed the crows feet a little for him if they were going to go that far . It 's nice to know that he did , in fact , have a right side to his face and that , since we can no longer see it , we don 't have to wonder what color the ribbon on his little ponytail was . For an article on the changes and such , please go here . The " tail " of the nickel is also changing , and this is the first new image : Would someone please tell me whether this is a buffalo or a bison ? The article says , " The backs of the coins depict the American bison , familiarly known as the buffalo . " However , I was pretty sure that they were actually different animals , and that bison we still have but buffalo we don 't because we were stupid way back when and hunted them out of existence right out from under the native Americans . So is it the bison of today or the buffalo of yesterday that is pictured ? Anyone else childishly amused that they didn 't emasculate the poor thing and actually have a little doo - dad ( don 't know what you call them on buffalo / bison ) where there 's supposed to be a doo - dad ? I would think it 's the American Way to turn him into Buffalo Ken . . . accessories sold separately . Hey , is this discussion making anyone else crave a bucket of Buffalo wings right about now ? I 'll bring the bleu cheese dressing . First off , I wanted to say thank you all for your comments over the last couple days . Even the ones on the post with no words , even if I didn 't sound all that appreciative yesterday . They were all pretty funny , but I guess I wasn 't in the mood to fully appreciate them just yet . I 'm still not feeling terribly perky about things , but the weekend is here and I 'll get over it . In the meantime , however , I 'll share the funk I was in earlier today . I read this article by one Michael Gorman , whose condescension made me see red for a little while . So , with apologies to Emma Lazarus , but none to Michael Gorman : With quiet fingers . Give me your weary , your disillusioned , Your unpublishable masses yearning to write free , The untrammeled refuse of your ivory tower . Send these , the " Blog People , " media - belittled to me . I lift my laptop beside the golden browser ! I find this man 's posture annoying , though not surprising . And I certainly find the manner in which he characterizes bloggers , lumping us all together in a grammar - less , useless , meaningless , unworthy heap he terms " Blog People " to be lacking in both grace and intelligence . How many times do you think Mr . Gorman has " Googled " himself to actually see what reaction , if any , the " Blog People " have had to his patronizing missive ? High irony , indeed , if he has . You know what , Mr . Gorman ? Not all of us " Blog People " think Googleness is next to godliness . I 've written before about how I came late to the Google party , and I certainly do not ascribe to it attributes or benefits it does not have . To many of us , Google is a tool , nothing more . And those of us who know how to use it do not find that the results are " in no very useful order . " Perhaps that is whence your problem stems . You may not be a Luddite , but perhaps you are simply not computer - literate enough or , more accurately , Internet - literate enough , to get meaningful results out of what is a valuable tool . To suggest that it is anything else is , as you put it , " absurd . " Your obvious attempt to marginalize us by giving us , as a grPinged by Hmm , what to do on a night when there is still a week until Amazing Race 7 starts and there 's nothing much on TV ? That 's right , go play some trivia ! Last week we discovered that there is a trivia contest at my favorite local restaurant each Tuesday , but we weren 't able to stay and play at the time . We went back tonight to see how well we could fare at QuizBang , which I saw described as " a tournament of knowledge , music , skill and speed , " and I 'd say that is fairly accurate . I won 't go into the details of how it all works , but there are a bunch of rounds and you play in teams to answer 40 questions . I love trivia games and I 'm generally pretty good at them ; I 'm the kind of person who really enjoys things like Trivial Pursuit and Jeopardy . I didn 't earn the moniker " Queen of Random Shit " for nothing , you know . For something like this , when you play with someone else you usually have the advantage of combined knowledge . Well , I think you need a whole tableful of people to have a chance at covering the breadth of topics the questions touch on . Some of the questions were hard ! For instance , do you know what city the Jetsons live in ? Or which terrorist claimed that the U . S . Army had implanted a chip in his butt in order to control his mind ? Or who completed the first successful heart transplant ? Or what instrument Django Reinhardt is famous for playing ? Well , neither did we . But if you did . . . what are you doing next Tuesday ? It seemed as though there was nothing but bad news today . Not that I had time to read much of it during the day , but the headlines were pretty sobering whenever I looked . Honestly , when I first scanned the headlines in the morning , I had to stop and consider whether it was some cruel April Fool 's Day or something . ( I 'm not at my sharpest first thing in the morning , okay ? ) Sandra Dee died . John Raitt died . Killer mudslides in Southern California . Hunter S . Thompson committed suicide . Killer bird flu for humans could be on the way . Aerosmith 's Steven Tyler and his wife are separating . Killer avalanches in India . Personal data security breach bigger than first thought . Killer ferry disaster in Bangladesh . Poor Paris Hilton 's address book was hacked and spread around the Web . And then , just as I 'm getting ready to start my post tonight : Killer earthquake in Iran . Wow . Welcome to Morose Monday . The one bright spot in the " news " today ? Peri is , in fact , the official Espresso Sarcasm Mascot ! If you have a chance , be sure to go over and share your joy at this news with Norman . I can 't speak for him , but I can sincerely say that this is a dream come true for me . So , another week has come and gone , and what have we learned ? Well , I have learned that either : a ) No one enjoys the same music that I do ; b ) No one thinks what I 've been doing here this week is all that amusing ; orc ) No one pays all that much attention when they 're here each day . Another option , I suppose , would be d ) All of the above . It 's kind of no fun when you 're playing a game and no one else is playing along . But if I told you what the game is , there would be no game . I hope that 's cryptic enough to make you take another look and see what you 've missed . But many of you were paying attention yesterday and today and turned out in force over at Norman 's for the Cutest Kitten contest . You did a fabulous job and I 'm hoping that there will be good news to share tomorrow . Many thanks to everyone who voted , especially one super - special person whose inimitable style , cleverness , and persistence are greatly appreciated . She knows who she is and she has both my admiration and gratitude . I suppose that wouldn 't buy her so much as a cup of coffee most places , but if I ever get the chance , the honor would be mine to buy her a cup . . . or three . Those of you who have been coming here for any length of time will no doubt recognize this face : For any of you who are a bit newer , alllow me to introduce my family 's cat , Peri . She doesn 't live with me ( she lives with my mom ) , so I don 't get to see her every day and , honestly , the sight of that little face makes me melt every time I see this shot . She is our first cat , and the memories of those early days when every new thing she did was a delight and you had a bunch of adults falling over themselves to please a handful of fur are very happy ones . This picture brings that back for me the best . So , why am I mentioning all this ? Well , the delightful Michele has taken over as guest blogger at Norman 's this week and , being a woman after my own heart , she has infused that bastion of anti - cat , anti - cute sentiment with a welcome sunbeam of sweetness . She has created The Softer Side of Espresso Sarcarsm , where readers have submitted the cutest cat pictures they could find . I have submitted this picture of Peri , as well as one of Squeaky and another cat doing the cute thing . On that site , there 's a contest going on , but not just any contest . Yes , folks , starting now and going until midnight ( ET ) on Friday , you can help me win a highly coveted Nubbie award ; an honor that is a one - of - a - kind , certainly never - to - be - repeated . . . EVER opportunity . Not only that , but the winning cat will become Norman 's Mascot Kitty ! I get a little weak just thinking about it . . . the same way I 'm sure Norman does , but for completely different reasons . So please share a little love for my favorite fuzz - face and go here to leave a comment under the entry with Peri 's picture above . I suggest " Peri sent me , " but you 're free to go your own way . The cat with the most comments by the cutoff time wins . Michele has decreed " Vote early and often . . . " so get over there as much as you can and make it happen ! I 'm in love . It happened so suddenly and so unexpectedly that it has left me a little breathless . I was just going along , doing the things one does with one 's evening when one doesn 't really have anything one is actually supposed to be doing . Among them was going to the grocery store , pretty much to see what there was to see and to pick up a few things that probably weren 't necessary but since I had the time to go I figured I would . Who knew I 'd walk in to my local Safeway with no expectations apart from a few good buys and maybe finding a penny or two on the floor at the cash registers , and walk out with the world at my feet ? Certainly not I . After walking up and down almost every aisle without much to show for my efforts , I went to check on whether my household 's favorite ice cream novelty was still on sale , since I intended to eat the last one when I got home . And it 's just not nice to do that without at least trying to get more for everyone else , right ? To my consternation , however , they were no longer on sale . I stood there , hand on hip , an ironic yet frustrated smile gracing my face , when a very nice man walked by and chuckled at my expression . He stopped and I learned that he mistook my grin as being overwhelmed by the pretty impressive selection . We chatted and I explained why I was smiling while staring at the spot on the freezer shelf where the sale sign should have been . And that 's when it happened . My heart stopped and the world shrunk down to the wonder I suddenly saw before me . . . No , no , not him , he had moved on and , nice as he seemed , my attention was elsewhere . My eye was drawn to a sale tag in the adjacent freezer - - there it was , the one I 'd been waiting for all my life . The perfect Ben & Jerry 's flavor , Chocolate Therapy , a new limited - edition flavor that I personally believe was conjured right out of my dreams . My hand trembled a bit as I pulled open the door and reached for my piece of personal Nirvana . Being shameless , we went home together and I dove right in . Who says there 's no such thing as heaPinged by I 'm going to guess that you probably did not watch Dr . Phil 's " Romance Rescue " tonight . And for that I commend you . But I decided that I was going to suck up any distaste and watch and report on it since I felt a tad responsible after mentioning it a couple times and having so many people come by here because of it . I don 't know how likely it is that very many of those people will be coming back , but once you make a commitment to something as silly as this , you might as well stick with it . Really , having Jonathan and Victoria take part was like the fluffy , but defensive , cream filling in the Oreo of this show . They were stuck in the middle between two other segments - - though those were broken up to spin out the non - existent suspense - - and were more or less the draw to make the cardboard - like parts seem more interesting . ( I should note that I 'm not a huge Oreo fan , so this analogy makes perfect sense to me . ) The other two segments consisted of a recently engaged couple who is already on the rocks , and a woman who just can 't seem to find Mr . Right . I could tell you a lot more , but it broke down to the couple being afraid of each losing something ( her : him , him : sex ) and needing a second chance to start the engagement over , and Ms . Right was a control freak who froze up on dates . Not surprisingly , Dr . Phil made everything hunky - dory for them in the end . With Jonathan and Victoria , however , it seemed more like an attempt at damage control for them - - they weren 't there to have Dr . Phil " rescue " them . We had the standard Jonathan quotes , " I 'm not the person that I 've been portrayed [ sic ] , " and the person we saw on the show was a " heightened version " of him , not a reflection of his " true character . " Of course , this was all interspersed with clips of them being kissy kissy kissy kissy in order to really show the " softer side of their relationship , " as Victoria put it . The best bit of double - talk from him was when Dr . Phil asked how he could have treated Victoria that way over the infamous backpack shove incident . He said , vePinged by That seems like a good one to start with . We 'll see how long it takes for someone to figure out what I 'm talking about . So , another solo Valentine 's Day has been survived by yours truly . If you can 't understand why I use the word " survived , " I ask you to read this article . If you don 't understand after reading it , this may not be the blog for you . How have we come back around to the point where " A woman on her own . . . is simply unnerving , " can you tell me ? Divorce shouldn 't be stigmatized , so I 'm glad that is changing but , geez , don 't cast me in the role of some sort of a new - age spinster and make assumptions about who I am because I don 't " conform to the same shape " your life has taken . Please . ( After all , I may be " weird " but I am also polite . ) In case you didn 't know it , today was also International Quirkyalone Day . Never heard of Quirkyalone ? For most of you , I 'm not terribly surprised . Why would you ? You 're probably neither quirky nor alone . But if you are , here is my greeting to you today : Suddenly , March 1 seems just so far away and I find myself in need of an Amazing Race fix . 1 . Freddy and Kendra were on Live with Regis and Kelly today . Thanks to the wonder that is TiVo , I got the thrill of seeing it without even trying . ( I couldn 't care enough to tape their appearance on the Early Show on Wednesday . ) As soon as they got settled atop the stools , Kendra 's hand shot out and landed high up on Freddy 's thigh . I think he decided that wasn 't the place for it to be on national TV , so he grabbed her hand and moved it out of harm 's way , and kept it clutched in his the whole rest of the time . We got the story of how they met , how Freddy decided she was the woman for him , blah blah blah , and got insight into their strategy for the Race . Did you know that their plan was to play low - key , not to be too aggressive and thereby not always try to push their way to the front but just " not be last . " So , in other words , they only let the other teams think they were in contention , but really these two masterminded it so that no one saw them as huge threats . Gee , guess if they had a plan that clever , they deserved to win . ( Can you tell I 'm still just a little bitter over the result of this season ? ) And , oh , it had to happen . Just as they were about to wrap it up , Regis jokingly offered Freddy another million dollars to repeat his Hungarian soup adventure . Kendra , true to form , immediately turned and offered him what I think is the only encouragement she knows : Go , baby ! 2 . Isn 't this such a nice picture of three of the final four couples ? There 's Kris , with her ever - present perkiness , Jon with his never - fail smile . Aaron doesn 't quite look like himself there , but he and Hayden obviously haven 't imploded under the weight of her hysteria . He looks highly amused by Adam 's glasses . And Rebecca , honey , open - mouthed laughs are fine , but ditch the gum . Cattiness aside , it 's a nice shot , and clearly everyone is having just a wonderful time . But you know what 's coming , don 't you ? Mmm - hmm , you see that bit of camel coat and you can juPinged by April pointed out on Saturday that this Smash Mouth song , which we were listening to at the time , would be the perfect title for this final Amazing Race 6 post . She was right , but actually , yeah , I have had more than enough of you " baby . " This two - hour episode almost broke my resolve to keep counting , there were so freaking many of them . But first let 's take it back to Shanghai . ( This spot reserved for the obligatory comment about Bolo completely mangling the name of the next city , Xi ' an , China , at the start . We miss you , Bolo . ) The remaining four teams set out for the final elimination leg with a pretty strong - looking Hayden and Aaron leading the way , followed by Freddy and Kendra , then Kris and Jon , with Adam and Rebecca once again bringing up the rear . ( Insert your own joke here . ) - I thought maybe I was the only one who remembered this movie , but while they were spray - painting the car shell Adam said , " I feel like Michael Keaton in ' Gung Ho . ' " It was the first time I had really a warm and fuzzy feeling toward P - boy . ( I 'm not going to repeat what I called him a few episodes back , because it resulted in some really . . . um . . . interesting Web searches . ) - I didn 't keep track of who did which Roadblocks throughout the Race , so maybe Aaron couldn 't have done the one that involved the keys and what appeared to be thousands of locks . But , given the state Hayden had worked herself into , having her do it seemed like a mistake right off the bat . I 've never seen a team skip a challenge and take a four - hour penalty , but they looked like they had just had enough . Because Rebecca found her lock at just about the last possible moment , that move cost them a spot in the final three . But all was not lost . In a rather unusual Pit Stop moment , Aaron and Hayden edged out Rebecca and Adam to the mat , but then got eliminated . Before we could recover from that , Aaron shocked everyone by taking to one knee and proposing to Hayden . Even Phil welled up a bit when , speechless , she accepted . - I was really nervous about the ability of my new best friend , Adam , to do the final Roadblock . As Phil so kindly pointed out during the initial recap , Adam 's fears had held the team up a number of times along the way . So as soon as he said he was going to do the sky diving , I envisioned a mile - high anxiety attack . Lo and behold , he had this look of utter determination on his face and he leaped out of that plane with nary a " Tell my mother I love her ! " ( Well , that we saw , as my brother pointed out . ) - What to say about Kendra ? Apart from that she 's $ 500 , 000 richer now , that is . I was disappointed that she and Freddy won , because I think Kris and Jon were the better team in so many ways . But Kendra did have more memorable lines , tonight and throughout . Nothing could ever top her " it 's like they choose to live this way " comment ( which they also thoughtfully showed again at the outset ) but there were a few gems tonight . Such as when she declared that she and Freddy weren 't " going to be the nice , sweet people " they had been up to that point . I 'm sorry , was she talking about the same Race I was watching ? And when she suddenly turned on the waterworks at the airport in Japan to try to get on an earlier flight , wailing " I have a sick child in Honolulu ! " For me , the oddest was her sudden new proclivity to cast Freddy as a super hero . As he landed in the water after sky diving , she sang out , " Come to me , Superman ! " and referred to him multiple times as her " little hero . " But things reached their crescendo at the very end when Freddy declared that " Kendra is the most perfect human soul . . . for me . " Thank you for that clarifier , bud , because I was about to lose my pizza , even though it wasn 't deep dish . Oh , there were many others , but it 's time to face that it 's over and there 's nothing left to do but add up the " babies " and " honeys . " Yes , it 's the final version of the Official One Ping Only AR6 " Baby " Count ™ . As I mentioned , there were a whole lot of them , as we had the top three serial offenders in these last two hours . ( Rebecca , wisely , chose to not use any endearments on Adam this time out . ) So take a deep breath with me and ride out this storm of affection to its thrilling conclusion ! But wait ! There 's more ! It may not be possible for this number to be surpassed next season - - which starts on March 1 - - but in the preview for AR7 , they showed one contestant letting out one big ole " Yeah , baby ! " so there is a glimmering chance . Which means . . . we 'll be back ! Before I get to the point of this particular post ( should there actually be one ) , a little note for the oodles of peoples who have been coming here looking for information on the upcoming Dr . Phil special , " Romance Rescue , " featuring this blog 's favorite dysfunctional couple , the ELIMINATED Jonathan and Victoria from The Amazing Race 6 : The show is on February 15th , on CBS , 9 p . m . ET / PT . Check your local listings . ( I 've always wanted to say that . ) Go here for the CBS page with info and a video preview . My weekend was a pastiche of football , food and naps , mixed in with a little shopping , a few errands and some quality Internet surfing time . The football wasn 't just The Semi - Super Bowl , though . Saturday night we went to see the home opener for the San Jose SaberCats , our Arena Football team . Okay , well , some people may have been there to see the SaberKittens . I can 't blame them , because those are some fine cheerleaders . ( They 've certainly got the now - defunct " Anorexic Girls " of the San Jose Stealth beat , both in talent and hotness , sorry girls . ) Sadly , their page does not yet have kitten photos up yet - - a form of kitty blogging that I think even Norman could have * ahem * gotten behind - - but check back soon and see if you can tell the difference between Kristi , Kristen and Kristina ! Anyway , the SaberCats are the defending ArenaBowl Champions and they kicked the behinds of the visiting team from Las Vegas . The game was good , but I was tired after a point ( the beer with dinner did me in ) , so I took a nap for a little while during the third quarter - - yes , it appears I really can sleep anywhere . But it got me refreshed for the free concert that followed from hometown band Smash Mouth . They were pretty good , and I think their upcoming new album will be successful based on the new songs we heard . I felt a little bad for them when they did " Walkin ' on the Sun , " because the bunch of kids they brought up on stage didn 't know the words and the lead singer obviously expected that they would ! But , I think they were a little too young - - most of them were just out of diapers when that song was a monster hit . And , I might add , a seminal song of the 90s , in my opinion . You have no doubt read and heard all you need to know about the Super Bowl and the mostly lame ads , so I 'll pretty much skip over that . . . other than to mention that I took a nice nap in the third quarter of that game , too . Oh , well , actually , it started during the halftime show , but I guess that 's really no surprise . I roused myself in time for the food , of course . We had some lovely crudités , crackers and cheese , including some herb - and nut - crusted goat cheese balls I made ( I love those things ) , and Burns - style chili , then topped it off with a delicious lemon Bundt cake . That probably doesn 't sound like traditional football fare , but it worked for us . Again , thanks to those of you who submitted entries for the reality show contest , and to those who expressed interest in general . It was fun to see what people came up with and I hope to do it again soon , with a different theme . Next time I 'll leave a little more time for sending in entries . You 'll just have to put up with more reminders ! So . There were some very diverse ideas , and each of them was unique and took totally different spins on the genre . But in the end , choosing the winner was the easiest part of the whole shebang . I guess there 's no need to draw this out any longer - - I 'll let the results and the spotlighted entries speak for themselves . . . . Ann ! Her entry , Wrongfully Accused , * wowed the judges and unanimously took the top honors . It 's a show we love the idea of and we would be interested in seeing how it could be brought to . . . uh . . . reality ? Congratulations ! Taking the First Prize is . . . April ! If it made it onto the air I know I wouldn 't last a single episode on her show , which I dubbed In the Chips , but it would certainly be an education . We could really picture the whole concept and see how the mechanics of getting to a winner would work . Nice job ! There are two other entries I want to spotlight , because they were creative and interesting , and they made the judging challenging ! The first one is from Grins . Her show , which I think of as The Chat Boat , could be the Temptation Island of the high seas . Last , but most certainly not least , is Trading Everything from Fat Dude . His is a funky combination of pure originality and unabashedly cribbed elements from a host of actual shows . Compelling as it was , it 's actually a good thing he didn 't win this , because it could have blown his mojo for the far cooler contest he won today . Go wish him a great trip to party like a rock star in El Lay . * Boring stuff : 1 . The ideas expressed in the entries linked here are the copywrited property of the participants who submitted them . So don 't even try to steal them . E - mail them nicely and offer them lots of money . 2 . If you don 't have Adobe Acrobat and want to read any or all of the entries posted here , e - mail me and I can send them in Word . 3 . Ladies , I 'll be in touch soon to get your prizes to you . Where has everyone gone ? Sixty - seven people stopped by today and no one but cbeck had anything to say ? Wow . Hope you 're all off doing something interesting . ( And thanks , cbeck . ) Tonight I went out for dinner at one of my favorite local restaurants , Pasta Pomodoro . Have you ever gone to a restaurant that you 've been to a hundred times before and , all of a sudden , they change the menu ? That 's what I encountered tonight . Usually I walk in there already knowing what I 'm going to have because I know . . . I mean , knew . . . the menu like the back of my hand . ( I should mention that I eat out quite frequently , and this place is a real standby . ) The menu available at the link is the old one . Now it 's really , really different . I was thrown for such a loop that it took me a very long time to decide what to have . In the end I decided to try two things from their new " small plates " selections to make a meal . I happen to love Brussel sprouts , and they have a neat new dish where they 're seared and it 's absolutely delicious . ( Has anyone else noticed that Brussel sprouts are showing up a lot more on menus lately ? ) It was a nice surprise ; if they added a little bacon to it , it would be just about perfect . I combined that with some simple spinach and ricotta ravioli in pomodoro sauce ( ravioli di magro ) . Perhaps an unusual pairing , but it really worked together and I was very well - sated in the end . The waitress was really cool about my floundering around the new menu and before we left she made a point of giving me one of the to - go menus to take with me so I 'd be prepared next time . ( Look , Kendra ! I 'm doing research ! ! ) Good way to get a nice tip . Anyway , we topped the evening off by renting Harold & Kumar Go to White Castle . What a funny freaking movie ! I 'd heard that it was , of course , and meant to go see it while it was in theaters but just never got there . I 'm kind of glad I didn 't , though , because I think I would have embarassed myself if I 'd watched it in public . The movie gave me a real craving . For , um . . . burgers , naturally . Good thing I was already full from dinner . Though I probably could have gone for a Krispy Kreme run . Can 't wait ' til the new one opens here next month or so , as it will be a lot more accessible for late - night munchies . Ahhh , bliss in a box . This is one of those rare times when I find that I have little to say . I had a mostly crappy day at work and , while the evening was better , nothing crossed my path to inspire me much . So perhaps it 's more like I have stuff to say , but it 's not really worth saying . Over the Road - Go over and take in a few tales from Trucker Bob , who has crisscrossed this continent and has boatloads truckloads of stories to share about that life . This and this are particular favorites of mine . I think with a little encouragement , we can get him to bust out a few more anecdotes that will make us all wish we had been along for the ride . And no , I 'm not just sending you there because he said nice things about me . My brother - - Whose generosity , it should be noted , actually makes One Ping Only possible and whose ongoing support contributes to its continued life . If this were Hollywood , he 'd probably get an Executive Producer credit . But it 's not . So he won 't . - - commented early on that he missed hearing Bolo destroy the name of whichever city they would be headed out to from the Pit Stop , and it really hit me that a lot of the fun had gone out of the game with their departure . No more barbarian insults . No more adventures in counting . No more implant jokes . They were the last of the teams with real personality that wasn 't defined just by bickering . Oh , and I miss their bickering , too . So I 'm feeling a little like , " Okay , let 's get it over with , hand Kris and Jon the money and look forward to next season with Amber and Boston Rob . " That fleeting wish almost got a little closer to being impossible as Team Smiley faced a barrage of dreadful cab drivers in China and came very close to going from first to last . . . not to mention almost getting creamed by a bus while running across a traffic - filled street on the dash to the Pit Stop . They edged out Rebecca and Adam , who were spared by a non - elimination round . At least I was right in one of my predictions , since Kendra wasn 't the offending honeymeister tonight , it was Rebecca of all people . I think she took her decision to continue playing along as Adam 's girlfriend a little too much to heart and went overboard with the endearments at the Detour . As much as I sometimes want to smack her a little because she ever got into that relationship in the first place , I do admire her spunk . When Adam chastised her for the third time about calling him " honey , " she shot back , " All right , ass . " - The Dr . Phil " Romance Rescue " commercial featuring Jonathan and Victoria , where Dr . Phil asks Jonathan , " Are you a jerk ? Is that who you are ? " Did the look on Jonathan 's face say " YES ! " to anyone else ? And now , the penultimate edition of the Official One Ping Only AR6 " Baby " Count ™ , which was almost evenly divided among " babies " and " honeys " this week , thanks to Rebecca 's and Adam 's efforts . As a bonus , there was a sweetheart thrown into the mix , but that doesn 't actually get counted . We have to have some sort of standards around here , you know . I 'm in the middle of changing the design here , so please bear with me . I 'll keep tinkering with it until I get it to where I like it . Hopefully you will , too . At the moment , comments aren 't working , which frustrates me greatly . I 'll get those up as soon as I can figure it out .

Elizabeth B . ( revolekim ) + 4 more Date Submitted : 5 / 4 / 2007 Genre : Teen & Young Adult Words : 5 , 431 Rating : � Eleanor ! � Susan Wilshire caught up with me as I headed out of biology . I resisted the urge to walk faster . Susan was one of those annoying girls who hung around me only on the off chance they might catch a glimpse of my buddy Ross . � Hey Susan , � I greeted , none too enthusiastically . I was actually meeting Ross for lunch in about two minutes and I knew he � d kill if Susan tagged along . � What � s up ? � � Uh � I was just wondering if you caught what he said the homework was . I wasn � t paying attention . � Her eyes searched the halls while she spoke . � Yeah , read chapter sixteen . � I hoped Ross hadn � t decided to pick me up like he sometimes did . � Oh . Okay . Thanks . � She finally looked at me , her eyes clouded with disappointment . � No problem . See ya � � round . � I took off through the pre - lunch crowd as fast as I could . A lot of girls envied me for being such good friends with Ross , but it wasn � t that great of a position . I mean , I adored Ross and all , but I still spent Saturday night dateless . I envied girls like Loria Elwood and Penny Wilson who both almost had boyfriends , but still got asked out by other guys all the time . They were never home on weekend nights . � You know it . � I followed him through the lunch line admiring his broad shoulders and muscular arms . Ross was a senior like me , but he seemed older . He didn � t dress like the other guys for one thing � he was classy . It wasn � t unusual for him to wear a tie , while you would never catch any other guy in anything other than jeans . He had messy brown hair and striking blue eyes framed with wire - rimmed glasses . And he wasn � t only hot , he also had the personality to match his looks . He could make any girl swoon . Even Loria and Penny would dump all of their guys in a second for Ross . He rarely dated though , much to the girls � disappointment and the guys � relief . � Ross ! Ellie ! � Camden Morris walked past , clapping both of us on the shoulders . Due to his lack of dating and his witty personality , Ross was also very popular with the guys . And being his buddy automatically made me the buddy of every other guy in school . Major downside . � Why the frown ? � Ross asked as we sat down at our usual table . � Oh , I dunno , � I didn � t really like to discuss girl stuff with Ross . He listened well , but � I dunno . � C � mon , kiddo , confide in ol � Ross . Maybe he can help . � � Well , it � s just that � it seems like every guy considers me their buddy . Ya � know ? I � m � good old Ellie , the girl who � s a guy . �� � C � mon Ross , you know it is or else you would have objected right away . And I � m fine with it � it just � I dunno � gets to me sometimes . I mean , I wouldn � t mind having a date every once in awhile . � � Don � t change the subject , Ellie , I � m trying to understand . � His striking eyes studied my face seriously . He leaned towards me , his food forgotten for the moment . � It � s really okay . I � ll get over it . � His voice held only a slight hint of impatience . He sure had more patience than me . I threw my math homework on my bed and grabbed the phone off my desk . � No , for real this time , � he said . Apparently Ross thought the fact that his mom cooked meatloaf for dinner for the third time that week was breaking news . And the fact that he was reading about gladiators for history and why couldn � t they just watch the movie ? And various similar facts . � No , no ! That � s not what I mean at all . I mean , what if we started � well � dating , per say . Just as a show , of course , to let those morons see what they � re missing . � � Okay , then , I � m game if you are . � � All right . I will see you tomorrow , my love . Unless there � s something else I just have to share with you . � I lay in bed awake until the wee hours of the morning fighting the urge to call Ross . What had I been thinking ? Why had I agreed ? The beauty of our relationship was that we never had to worry about falling in love with each other . I mean , I wouldn � t have minded really dating Ross if I had any chance at all , but I didn � t . And this whole thing was just going to mess with my head and my heart . I � d call it off first thing in the morning , I decided . I cared too much about Ross . I couldn � t lose him for anything . Not even my dating life . � About tonight , � He continued . � Since it � s Friday night I was thinkin � we could do a movie . Is your dad gonna be home ? � � You live two blocks from here . I assumed you would walk like you have for the past four years . � I leaned around him to twirl my combination lock . He � d apparently expected this because he leaned in too , until his face was inches from mine . His cinnamony breath felt warm on my face . � Hey beautiful , � he said softly . I just stared at him for a second before turning away . I couldn � t handle this . My reaction was not good . My heart raced and I clutched my lock to keep my hand from shaking . I turned to see Carter Wallis standing at his locker . I attempted to calm myself . Although Carter was not near as cute as Ross , he wasn � t too bad looking . He kept his curly blond hair slightly long and it framed his face , giving him an angelic , yet rough , unkempt look . It may sound weird , but it was a good effect . Carter had possibly the best hair in school . � Yeah , � I nodded . I watched Carter walk down the hall , his hands stuffed into his pockets . I opened my locker door and stuck my head in . Was this really working ? Was it worth it ? I had already planned to eat lunch with Zoe MacIntosh , thank goodness , so I didn � t have to worry about sharing an intimate meal with Ross . I wouldn � t call Zoe my best friend simply because of the connotations behind that phrase � connotations such as inseperability , keeping nothing from each other , always hanging out and the like . Zoe and I were good friends , but we didn � t hang out every day and I certainly didn � t tell her everything . Despite the fact that Zoe � s name sounded like she belonged in a romance novel , she was rather plain . Plainer than me , really , which is pretty plain if you think about it for any amount of time . She always wore her shoulder - length brown hair straight and parted down the middle . You � d hardly ever find her wearing anything other than jeans and t - shirts � not interesting t - shirts either , just plain ones . Even so , she still had her share of dates . Unlike me . � You did ? Do share . � I was always one to be entertained by other people � s fictional escapades , and Zoe was always one to let me in on them . � I heard that a certain Ross Denarius and a certain Eleanor Summers are taking that fateful step through the doorway from friends to lovers . � � Well � it � s � uh � I tried to recover my senses as I wiped my chin off . How in the world had that gotten around so fast ? Granted , Zoe was pretty high on the gossip chain , but still � all he � d done was say , � Hey beautiful . � I felt my cheeks become warm at the thought of that moment . Stop ! No more thinking about it ! � Oh ! � She squealed again . � I knew it was going to happen . I knew you were the only girl in this whole school who would be able to snag the elusive Ross . � West Winslow stood beside my locker as I approached it after my last class . He straightened up and smiled when he saw me coming . West was no Ross either , but he certainly made his share of hearts hammer . West had the best arms in Jackson High , and he always � like now � wore tight shirts to show them off . � What � s goin � on ? � Ross stepped between me and my locker . He was too close again . I had to take a step back to make my heart beat normally . � Yeah , yeah . � I pushed him out of the way so I could get my books out of my locker . � Hey , � he started to walk away . � Be ready at seven . � I heard Ross � s chuckle and then the low rumble of his voice as he murmured something softly to Theodore . � Ellie , � Theodore came into the living room . � Some hot guy is here and he wants to know if you � re ready to fall madly in love with him . � Ross wore black dress pants , shiny black shoes , and a white button - up shirt . The top few buttons of his shirt were unbuttoned and the sleeves were rolled up past his elbows . He looked very good , but I felt sadly underdressed in jeans and a t - shirt . Ross was smart picking a chick flick . I learned that the only time guys will go to a chick flick is when they � re interested in a girl . Since movies are about the only happening thing on Friday nights , the majority of Jackson High was in the theatre . And all of them stared as Ross and I headed into the � dating � movie . We sat near the back , and Ross nonchalantly laid his arm across the back of my chair . I felt uncomfortable , not sure of how to sit . Ross put a hand on my shoulder and pulled me towards him . � I � m playing hard to get . � And then I scooted away and settled down to enjoy the movie . Ross left his arm around my shoulders , but didn � t try anything else . As a matter of fact , he actually seemed to be getting into the movie . I was glad that Dad valued Ross � s opinion so highly � especially since I could make Ross say anything I wanted . All I had to do was pout . West took me to dinner at the Propeller , the local aerodynamically themed diner which was the hangout . He was good company and we had fun , but how could I settle for a semi - amusing guy when I � d been spoiled by Ross for the past two years ? I started to ask myself why I was comparing West to Ross , but I stopped . I did not need to go there . Dad gave me a skeptical look Sunday afternoon when I asked him if I could go skating with Holt Winston . At the mention of Ross � s approval , he consented . He considered this . � Watch TV , read , mess on the computer and stay up past midnight . But still , it � s the principle of the thing . � He had me there . Was that a good reason ? Did I even want to go to the mall with Merrill ? He had nice ears , but that � s about the only thing he had going for him . � Good . See ya � later . � He reached up and slid his fingers through my hair , then pulled me toward him and softly kissed my cheek . I closed my eyes and breathed in his cologne . He stayed close for a second longer , then pulled back and strode away . I stared after him with an unidentified ache in my heart . Zoe � s words flitted through my muddled mind � we belonged together . No ! I chased the thought away . I couldn � t think about it � it was never going to happen . I went into class , sat down at my desk , and dropped my head into my hands . Not thinking about it was going to be very hard . I cancelled my plans for Saturday and spent the whole day with my brother . I realized that I � d missed him in the past week . The poor kid � d had to watch Dexter � s Laboratory alone . After dinner , we chased Dad out of the den so we could watch The Emperor � s New Groove in peace . We were curled up on the couch , both of us half - asleep , when the doorbell rang . A few seconds later Ross appeared in the doorway . He looked great � as usual � in jeans and a Superman t - shirt . I , on the other hand , was already in my pajamas � thank goodness they were cute , at least � soft , silky blue pants with stars all over them and a white tank - top with a single star on the front . � Hey , � he said . � I never get to see you anymore . � Ross plopped down beside me and put his feet on the coffee table . Theodore snuggled closer to me , and I wrapped my arm around him . He seemed so little in his Spiderman pajamas . I felt guilty for the past week . Had it been worth it ? � Oh , � he turned to go out the door but stopped . Before I knew what was happening , he was hugging me . � I miss you , Ellie , � he said . Then he released me and went out the door . I stood watching until his car disappeared down the street . Oh , if only Ross could be mine ! I couldn � t keep myself from thinking about it any longer . I knew then that I could never care for another guy like I cared for him , but I also knew it would never happen . I didn � t have a chance � he thought of me as his buddy . Why else would he be helping me get dates ? On Monday morning Ross was waiting by my locker when I got there . He stepped towards me , slid his arm around my shoulders and leaned in to kiss my cheek . My heart pounded painfully and I found it hard to breathe . � You look gorgeous today , � he said . � But I miss the pajamas . � I raised my eyes to his face and opened my mouth to protest , but my words stopped before they reached my lips . His blue eyes were focused intently on me and I saw something in them , something I � d never seen before . He smiled . � Eat lunch with me . � I slipped out from under his arm and took a step back . � I � I can � t . � And I disappeared into the crowd as fast as I could . I couldn � t take this anymore . I couldn � t stand to hear Ross sound like he wanted me when I knew he really didn � t . We usually spent the whole period sharing silent jokes and laughter , but today I completely avoided his eyes . I stared at my notebook or Mr . Johannesen the whole time . I actually got all of the notes . As soon as the bell rang , I jumped out of my seat and took off out the door . I heard Ross calling , but I didn � t turn back . If I did , I would cry . I made it all the way to the front door when Ms . Waters , the evil vice - principal , caught me and inquired where did I think I was going . � Wasn � t that the last bell ? � I asked weakly . At least Ross wasn � t in my next class . He was , however , waiting by the door . � Now you � ve got to talk to me , � he said . I breezed past him into class and asked Mrs . Killinger about her grandson � her favorite topic . She told me in detail about his first tooth until the bell rang . Ross stood by helplessly until Mrs . Killinger shooed him out . After that class I was determined . I was getting out no matter what . Just let them try to suspend me . But fortunately , they didn � t have a chance to try . I got out to my car without being noticed . I couldn � t go home � cause Dad would be there . Without thinking , I drove to the park . I got out of my car and walked over to the Winston River . I sat down under my favorite oak and cried , my sobs blending in with the rushing river . Ross sat on my front steps with Theodore when I got home . I wanted to keep driving because I knew my eyes were red and I wasn � t ready to face him yet , but I gathered my courage and pulled into the driveway . I had to face him sometime � and I � d rather it was at home instead of in school . � Ellie ! There you are ! � Theodore bounded over to greet me . I fell back onto my car when he slammed into me . He wrapped his arms around my waist and hugged me . I ruffled his hair and leaned down to pick him up . He was almost too big to be carried , but the thought of that made me sad . I � d carry him as long as I was able . Theodore paused , looking from me to Ross . He wore a look that said he knew he was missing something and he didn � t like it . But he was an amiable kid . He gave me one more hug and ran inside . � You � ve been crying , � he came over and slid his finger down my cheek as if tracing the path of a former tear . I looked down , pulling back from his touch . � I want to help . I can � t stand to see you hurting . � � I � ll be fine . I just need some time . � I stared at our feet ; his were only inches away from mine . Today he wore his shiny black dress shoes . They made my sneakers look ratty . That � s how Ross made me feel all the time � he was so gorgeous and awesome and sophisticated , he made me feel plain and unkempt . I didn � t deserve him . Even his shoes proved it ! I was lucky he cared about me as a friend . I felt tears coming again , but I squeezed my eyes shut against them . � Let � s just stop this whole pseudo - dating thing , okay ? � I managed . I felt him stiffen . � No , no one hurt me . � He relaxed . The fire left his eyes , replaced by the fondness I was used to seeing in them . The fondness mingled with that something else I couldn � t identify . � Well , okay . But I � m here whenever you need to talk about it . Call me , promise ? � I nodded . Before I could stop myself , I slipped my arms around his neck and hugged him tightly . He hugged me back just as tight , squeezing more tears out of me . I was lying on my bed , trying to concentrate on a book I was reading when Dad stuck his head into my room . It was nearly eleven and Theodore had been tucked in ages ago . I was surprised Dad was still up . � Yeah , � he said . � And if anyone asks you to do anything tomorrow , tell them you can � t � cause you � re spending the whole day with me . Got it ? � I walked down the front steps of my house the next morning half asleep , my travel mug full of strong coffee in one hand . I turned towards the driveway and stopped , shocked awake . Ross � s dad � s car was parked behind mine and Ross sat in the driver � s seat waiting . When he saw me , he jumped out . I slid into the seat , speechless . He closed the door , then ran around to his side and got in . � Did you or your dad make that ? � He nodded at my coffee . It wasn � t too long before I realized he wasn � t driving towards school . � Are you kidnapping me ? � I asked . I had regained my senses , somewhat , and was now merely curious . Realizing I wasn � t going to get any straight answers out of him , I turned to stare out the window . Oh . I knew where we were going . The park was empty � it was too late for joggers and too early for anyone else . Ross stuck my mug in the cup holder and ushered me out of the car . He took my hand and led me across the dewy grass to the river . He stopped under my favorite oak . He pulled me close , tilted his head down , and his lips met mine . The one thing I � d never let myself even imagine was actually happening . And it was better than I could ever have imagined . I put my arms around his neck and held him tightly . I knew no other guy would ever compare to him . He ended the kiss and whispered huskily in my ear , � If you ever go out with another guy again I � m gonna go completely insane . I don � t like sharing you . � He had absolutely nothing to worry about , but I couldn � t find my voice to assure him . I just smiled up at him and he understood . He leaned down and rested his forehead against mine . His cinnamony breath was warm on my cheek . Very well written and held my attention all the way . I 'm impressed ! Denise I . ( Mirramelle ) - 5 / 6 / 2007 7 : 45 AM ET You were able to get across Ellie 's feelings clearly . Enjoyable reading . Thank you for sharing . Samantha W . ( Amsamfa ) - 5 / 7 / 2007 8 : 37 AM ET I loved this story ! The way Ross and Ellie connected was so real . Enjoyed it from beginning to end . Terry J . - 11 / 2 / 2007 8 : 00 PM ET This was SOOOOOO good ! A little sudden in everything but overall perfect ! Get it published - I 'll take 5 copies ! Michal W . ( Princess101 ) - 5 / 28 / 2010 7 : 28 PM ET By using this Web site , you confirm that you have read , understood , and agreed to be bound by the Terms of Use . US Patent Number 7 , 877 , 315 | Copyright © 2004 - 2017 PaperBackSwap . com . All Rights Reserved .

Yesterday was my birthday . All in all it was a pretty good day . Very laid back and relaxed - just what I needed that day . The weather was way too hot for the zoo like our original plan so we did the next best thing . A shopping trip at Michael 's ! My mom told me that I could pick anything out . I almost tried pushing my luck by throwing a Cricuit machine into the cart , but the sensible side of me won out and opted for something smaller . I 've had my eye on a wreath for the front door for months now . I was able to get all of the supplies to make my wreath and I 'm really happy about the final product . I can 't wait to hang it on my door . I came across this picture that was taken May 22 , 2001 : I spent the day with my family and couldn 't have asked for anything better . It was a great way to spend my birthday ! I was even serenaded by Landon . When we woke up he started singing " Happy Birthday " to me ! It was the sweetest thing . Then he topped it and even managed to make me cry - not very hard I know , but he really was sweet . After he finished singing " Happy Birthday " he said , " wait Mommy " and ran off to his room . He came back a few seconds later and shouted , " Surprise Mommy ! " He was pushing his Pooh firetruck and opened it up for me to see . He put some of his small toys inside of it as my surprise ! I have a picture of my birthday surprise back at home . I will upload it later . He really was the cutest thing yesterday . I love my little boy so much ! Posted by Landon loves playing pretend . Every day he is a different animal . Most days he is a cat . He becomes upset if I refer to him as Landon while he is in cat mode . He will only respond to me if I call him cat and his response will often be in a series of meows ! He gives me a good laugh every single day . He can go from this . . . . . . to this in a matter of seconds . His personality is constantly changing . The one constant is the amount of fun that Landon can have with the simplest things . His Cookie Monster Play - doh set is one of his favorite activities . We play with it almost daily . He makes different fruits , veggies , and letters and feeds them to Cookie Monster . Today Landon even insisted on brushing Cookie Monster 's teeth once he was done eating . He then wanted to give him a bath , but I assured him that Cookie Monster doesn 't need a bath . Landon settled on just putting a t - shirt on Cookie Monster and then went on to do his next silly thing . The other day while I was cleaning up after our lunch dishes Landon came into the kitchen . He yelled , " Surprise ! I Mommy ! " I turned around and sure enough he looked just like me , kind of ! He put on the t - shirt that I had worn to bed the night before and pretended to be like Mommy for the rest of the afternoon . I even had to refer to him as Mommy for most of the afternoon . He sure does keep me on my toes and laughing . Landon is the perfect pick - me - up each morning and evening . Posted by I recently had the privilege of meeting with a local photographer for Landon 's three year photos . Every year we have Landon 's pictures taken in a studio . We have always walked away with good shots , but the process is always rather stressful . This time around we were able to have candid shots taken at one of Landon 's favorite parks . I am so excited over the end results . We wound up with a number of amazing shots . Here is the link to Landon 's photo shoot : http : / / britperkins . smugmug . com / Children / landon / 17132673 _ VCJ9jd # 1298323935 _ dh3b935 If you are in need of a photography in the Jacksonville area , then please contact Brittany Perkins at bajperkins @ gmail . com . She did an amazing job with Landon . She was so pleasant to be around and Landon really warmed up to her . Today has been a long day and it is not even 10 : 00 a . m . ! Landon woke up at 5 : 30 this morning and I woke up with a horrible headache . It was due from the combination of the lack of sleep over the past two weeks and the sinus pressure that I was having . I tried to persuade Landon to fall back to sleep , but he refused . He kept telling me that the sun woke him up . I told him that even the sun is still asleep . Landon 's response was , " Oh , right . Moon wake me up ! " I managed to stumble my way into the kitchen and make a pot of coffee . At this hour there was no point in a coffee mug . I put a straw in the coffee pot and was good to go ! If only my coffee maker actually had a coffee pot . It would have been a time saver saving me from making several trips back into the kitchen for refills ! With caffeine in hand I was ready to face the day . By 7 : 00 a . m . we had already made a tropical island out of Moon Dough complete with palm trees and monkeys . By 7 : 03 a . m . Landon was becoming bored . He was begging to watch cartoons . I wasn 't fond with the idea of cartoon watching . I didn 't want the day to be wasted in front of the tv . I also couldn 't imagine going outside to play . I knew the outside allergens would have made my headache worse . Landon started playing with his toy cars . I kept thinking to myself that it 'd be great if Landon had one of those floor road mats to play on . Then an idea came to me . I could make one . With duct tape in hand I set out to make a road way . The duct tape didn 't go as far as I thought it would . The roll size was deceiving . I had planned on making a road wrap around the hallway and pass under the dining room chairs . I quickly learned that the road was only going to be a short one and only passing through one tunnel . Landon didn 't seem to mind . He had a blast and it kept him busy for quite some time . Now I am wishfully hoping that it tires him out so that we can take a nice long nap this afternoon ! Posted by Landon 's vocab has more than quadrupled over the past several months . There isn 't a word that he can 't say . This can sometimes be a bad thing . I was cleaning up the breakfast dishes and Landon was screaming , " Look Mommy , damn ! Damn , damn , look Mommy ! " I immediately stopped what I was doing and walked into the living room with the intention of explaining to Landon that we don 't use that word . As soon as Landon saw me he said , " Beaver dam Mommy ! Look look ! " Phew ! Crisis adverted ( at least this time ! ) . A beaver was building a dam on the tv show and Landon wanted to show it to me . We did recently have the conversation that " crap " is not allowed . I try to not give bad words power . I know the more power I give to the offensive word , then the more Landon will want to use it . When the Jungle Book taught Landon " stupid " I ignored it and the word was quickly forgotten about . The same can not be said for " crap . " Aunt TT uses that word a lot . I 've asked her not to , but Landon picked up on it very quickly . If something doesn 't go his way he says " oh crap " or if he 's mad he 'll say " crap " and stomp his foot . It happened so frequently that I could no longer ignore it . I explained to him that we don 't use that word . Just yesterday Landon has been heard saying , " drap . " That 's right - my smart alec three year old replaced the " c " with a " d " in hopes of making it ok to say . Oh the joys of toddler hood ! The night of Landon 's birthday party he became really upset . He started crying because his party was over . He wanted everyone to come back over for another party . He picked up some of his balloons and started singing the Happy Birthday song . It was the cutest thing ! He sang it for three days straight ! I had the dining room light on when I took the video . It even looked really bright on the camera . Now that I uploaded it , it appears to be really dark . Hopefully it is not that big of an issue for anyone . This will actually post on Kevin 's birthday - Happy Birthday Daddy ! Love , Landon . Landon 's three year check up went rather well . He is now 37 pounds and 39 1 / 2 inches tall . He 's wearing a size 11 shoe and 3T - 4T clothing . His speech is no longer behind and right on target . He 's ahead of the game with his letters , colors , and numbers , probably because we make every single experience into a learning experience . Even when we take walks I 'll ask him to find Mommy three sticks or four leaves . I try to make learning a fun and continuous thing . The only issue of concern that I had for his pediatrician was the fact that Landon throws up , a lot . He 's always throwing up . At first I thought it was car sickness . Then it started happening at bed time and I was beginning to think that it was Landon 's tactic to stalling bed time . It then started happening more and more even while he was running around . It looks like it 's Gerd causing the issue . His pediatrician isn 't concerned about it because it 's not restricting his growth . I guess not at almost 40 inches tall ! I 've been stopping his milk come dinner time . He 's no longer allowed to have a sippy cup of milk at bed . If he protests it , then I give him a cup of water and this seems to be ok with him . The throwing up at night time has only occurred twice this week since I 've cut out the bed time milk . He does have a slight cold and is really congested so it may have been from that as well . Other than that small issue Landon is doing great . He 's growing like a weed and is smart as a whip ! Posted by This past weekend was super busy and loads of fun . Landon 's birthday was on Friday followed by his party on Saturday . Our baby boy is now officially a three year old ! Landon 's first picture as a three year old ! His actual birthday was a great day . We continued our Toys R Us tradition . Last year Kevin and I took Landon to Toys R Us to pick out anything he wanted . We did the same thing again this year . It was extra fun this year because Aunt TT and Aunt Keyko came along as well . Landon had a mini shopping spree at Toys R Us courtesy of his Aunt Keyko . It sure is going to be hard telling Landon that his toys have to go back to the shelves to go " night night " upon leaving a store now . He was able to walk away with anything that his little heart desired on his birthday . He was definitely one spoiled little boy on his birthday . We all had a blast and Landon was smiles most of the day while shopping . After lunch and shopping we came back home to cake and more presents . The following day was Landon 's birthday party . I think it was the most laid back party to date . I didn 't stress a single bit . I even held my composure when Landon 's cake fell apart during set up . I shrugged it off and continued to enjoy the day . Landon had a lot of fun at his dinosaur party . He was blessed once again with a ton of presents . He has a toy for every occasion : Landon 's cake worked out in the end . The dinosaurs broke in half so we placed toy dinosaurs on top of it . The volcano smoke cloud then broke so my mom made it look like lava split it in half . It all worked out in the end and it tasted super yummy ! I was even able to make his Dinosaur Train track fit around the cake stand for the finishing touch . L Landon loved opening up his presents . He would quickly tear one open , toss it aside , and then ask Daddy for " one more . " He had so much fun opening his presents ! It really was a great birthday weekend . Happy 3rd Birthday Landon Love ! We love you to the moon and back , lots much ! Posted by Wow ! I can 't believe that it 's been three years since our Landon Love was born . I have mixed feelings about Landon turning three . I am sad that the baby stages are completely gone . Late night feedings have been long gone , baby sign language has been replaced with full on sentences , and diapers are even a thing of the past . Who would have thought that I would miss diaper changes ! When I look at Landon I no longer see a baby face . I now see a boy who is full of so much energy and life . The energy and spunk that Landon has makes this stage so much fun . That is definitely the bright side to Landon getting older . The amount of fun that we have on a daily basis is endless . Landon is always smiling and laughing . He 's always looking for ways to have fun . He can turn the most basic of tasks like teeth brushing into a laugh fest . Landon 's zest for life is going to make this next stage in his life so much fun . I can 't wait to see what this next year has in store for us . The past three years have been simply amazing . The fourth year of Landon 's life is bound to be amazing as well . The other day I was walking around calling for Landon . I couldn 't find him anywhere . I knew that he couldn 't get out of the front door and the back yard is completely fenced in with no exit . He had to be in the house somewhere , but I couldn 't find him . After calling out for him several times I hear Landon say , " Here I am . Boy in chair room . " I could not figure out what he was talking about by " chair room " so I followed his little voice . Sure enough I found Landon in the chair room . He was underneath the dining room chair that has a floor length chair cover . He was playing with his animal toys under the chair . When I said " found you " Landon wouldn 't come out , but he did show me what he was doing . I think I may make a tent out of the dining chairs and we 'll have a picnic lunch sometime this week . The simple ways that Landon can have fun amazes me . How quickly we forget the simple ways that fun can be had once we become adults . Speaking of fun , Landon 's toys drive me nuts . I can 't stand seeing toys in the living room . Just because I am a mom does not mean that my life has to revolve around toys . There is no need to step on a toy or to sit on a toy or even to have a living room being cluttered with toys . I think I finally found a good balance between toys and a clutter free living room . Target had these storage cubes on sale one week . I picked one up along with four colored bins . The bins are in cream and purple of course . Landon knows that all of his living room toys must fit into these four bins . Whatever toys do not fit must be placed in his room . He 's allowed to bring his toys out into the living room , but at the end of play time he knows the toys that do not fit in the bins must go back into his room . It 's an amazingly simple solution to all of the toy clutter . My life has been much easier since coming across this toy solution . Posted by It 's no secret that I wasn 't thrilled when we found out that Landon was a boy . I 've written about my disappointment before . I really , really wanted a baby girl . My heart was set on a baby girl . I had a girl name picked out , the bedroom decor already saved in an online shopping bag , and my thoughts were entirely consumed with purple and pink frilly dresses . I couldn 't fathom having a boy . Once Landon was born I realized how silly I was being . I couldn 't imagine not having my baby boy in my life . I was meant to be the mommy of this rambunctious , amazingly adorable boy . I am in complete denial that in just one week our baby boy will be three . THREE ! I can 't believe it . That being said , I am really looking forward to the boy stage . I never thought I 'd get so excited over Landon hitting a ball with a baseball bat on just his third swing ever . I never thought I would enjoy playing with cars instead of dolls and tea parties . I never thought I would absolutely love wrestling with him instead of braiding hair . I love being the mommy of a little boy . And boy oh boy is Landon all boy . It was hot out the other day - surprise , surprise seeing as how we live in Florida . I couldn 't stand being indoors any longer , but Landon kept saying he was hot when we went outside to play . I pulled out his blow up pool determined to spend some more time outdoors . I went to hook the hose up to the back spigot , but it wasn 't working . For some reason the spigot in the back yard wouldn 't turn on . I didn 't have the right tools to hook the hose up to the washer and the hose was way too short to run from the front yard to the back yard . So I had to improvise . I walked pot after pot of water to the pool out back . After about the 30th full pot of water , I still only managed to fill a small portion of the pool . Landon was already busy splashing in it before I could even get his bathing suit on him so I just went with it . He splashed in about 1 / 2 inch of water and had a blast . He didn 't just splash in the water though . He would run to a pile of dirt andAmanda Landon , also known as " Landon Love " or " Love Bug " is our pride and joy . Landon is incredibly loving and is always giving the best hugs and kisses . Landon knows that he is adorable and uses it to his advantage . He knows the exact moment to flash his smile so that he is no longer in any trouble . Landon loves playing Candy Land , playing hide and seek , riding his bike and playing with Tinkerbell . His current favorite shows are Super Why , Jake and the Neverland Pirates and Caillou . He is obsessed with animals , Cars , and super heroes . Raising Landon these past three years has been quite an adventure and we couldn 't imagine life without him . These days I am best known as " Mommy " . I am a snot wiper , boo boo kisser and a boogy monster chaser . I am a chef , a teacher , a nurturer and a comforter . I love taking daily walks , playing at the park with Landon and just enjoying my life as a mom . If by chance I happen to get a spare moment , then I enjoy filling that time by baking , reading , and scrapbooking . I live a very simple life that revolves around Landon and I would have it no other way . Kevin is an amazing dad to Landon . He loves to play with Landon and read to him . Kevin enjoys spending his free time relaxing on the couch while watching ESPN , reading an occasional book , and cooking . We consider Tinkerbell our first born . She is an absolutely adorable Pomeranian . Tinkerbell acts like a third parent to Landon and even barks when Landon is doing something that he should not be doing to get our attention . She is so loving and gentle to Landon , even when he is rough and tough with her . We couldn 't ask for a better dog for Landon to grow up with .

I hope you 're having lots of success getting everything ready for the new children in your class . Maybe some are moving up from a younger class ; maybe they 're brand - new . It 's always a nervous time for teachers as we prepare lessons and materials , wondering what new challenges the new class will bring . Do you remember your first year as a teacher ? Or maybe this is your first year . There 's a lot of uncertainty as you wonder what the staff will be like , how you 'll get along with your directors and work under them , what to expect from the kids . All this can feel like a big , scary monster and is especially true for the kids . I have a monster of my own this year : a new job ! Remember when I said that if you don 't like your job , you should be grateful that you have one ? Don 't be afraid to look for other opportunities , too ! It can be tempting to wing it the first week ; after all , you 've taught the same thing year after year . But even if you have a lesson from previous years , try tweaking it . There are lots more ideas out there than when you created it . So now you 've got the perfect room arrangement . The problem with this is , that means moving the mat placement . Again . And re - drawing the mat chart . Again . I used roomarranger . com to create all of the objects in the classroom ; then , I saved a screenshot and printed it out on magnet paper . I laminated the whole thing and cut it up . Now , whenever I rearrange or move a child , I jut move the magnet ! I don 't know about you , but I love rearranging my room . I do it at least once a year so that it feels fresh . Think about it from the perspective of your students : do you leave the same toys and props in the centers throughout the year ? The same pictures up on the walls no matter what the theme ? Of course not ! Students need variety to feel engaged and the adult brain is no different . You can read more about it here , but the fact is that changing our environment helps keep us creative and motivated . As you can see in the picture , it breaks up big boards and organizes needed information into something bright and uncluttered . That 's my visual schedule there at the bottom , using pictures of the classroom and attached with velcro . 5 . Desk It finally happened : my desk has nothing on it ! I moved all of my resources out of sight to a file cabinet and kept out only the day - to - day forms . My library books and " To File " folder are nearby on a shelf . Bonus Tip ! Initial conferences are a wonderful way to start the school year . Even if your school doesn 't require home visits , make it a point . While you 're at it , give them your info on a laminated business card . I simply used a free Avery template , put my contact info on it , and printed it on bright paper . A magnet on the back makes sure it doesn 't get lost . Questions sheet , calendar , and contact info What are your best tips for starting out the schoolyear right ? What do you absolutely need to do before you feel that you 're ready ? Share in the comments below ! I hope you 're having a great summer so far ! Are you planning for the next school year ? Wondering what your kids will be like ? Stressing about your boss ? Well , in the immortal words of Douglas Adams : Today I found out that August is " Admit You 're Happy Month . " This seems like an odd concept at first . " How do you even know I am happy ? " My theory ( and the purpose of this blog ) is that there 's always something to be happy about . Don 't like your job ? At least you have one in today 's tough economy . Don 't like your boss ? Just be the best you can be . Do you have a home ? Food on the table , however meager ? There 's always something to be happy about . Just remember as this school year starts : you 're not alone . A great resource I 've found for getting myself motivated this year is this infographic from An Ethical Island : Sometimes it can help to share our accomplishments with others and be lifted up by others . In the comments , we 'd love to know : what keeps you motivated ? What are you happy about this year ? Happy teaching ! As a teacher , you face many issues : conflicting regulations , Common Core , low pay . You may be wondering if there 's anything you can do about it . I 'm here to remind you that everyone has a voice ! Have you ever read the book How Full is Your Bucket to your kids ? If not , you should . It 's a wonderful book about how compliments and kind actions fill someone 's happiness bucket throughout the day . One kindness may not seem like much , but eventually they add up . You can probably see where I 'm going with this . Congress has several buckets that need to be filled . This means you , personally , can do one of two things : ( 1 ) you can sit in the back and complain , letting those with opposing views fill that bucket instead . Or ( 2 ) you can stand up for what you know your children need . It doesn 't have to be anything big . Start small . Talk to your team about the change you 'd like to see . Write letters and let you kids draw pictures . Make a phone call . " As a man changes his own nature , so does the attitude of the world change towards him . … We need not wait to see what others do . " Ghandi I hope you 're having a great summer so far . My organization has come to a grinding halt ; it seems there 's always an emergency in the classroom these days . You know how it goes . We lost a few students to kindergarten , so we 'll have lower numbers next week and hopefully I 'll have some time then . It 's the story of one man and his quest to crowdfund a $ 10 potato salad . Kickstarter , you see , recently changed their terms . They don 't moderate projects anymore , instead opting to allow any project within reason . As a result , someone decided to Kickstart potato salad . He 's not a chef ; he 's simply asking for $ 10 to make some potato salad . As a result of taking this risk , he has raised over $ 40 , 000 . This got me thinking about risk . In the classroom , we teach our students risk all the time simply by challenging them in their natural play . " Can you build that tower higher ? " " What happens if you do this ? " We provide risk in a controlled environment because we know it 's good for their development and self - confidence . If they fail , they try again , developing perseverance and self - confidence . Children aren 't the only ones who benefit from risk - taking , either . In adults , it can mean a new career , a new life partner , or simply reaping the rewards of an investment . When we take risks , our brain actually releases dopamine that gives us a sense of happiness . Taking risks actually makes us happier ! Now let me ask you : when was the last time you took a risk ? When you built that tower up as high as it could go , even when it seemed like it couldn 't hold another piece ? Think about when that was , whether it was recent or long ago . What was the result of it ? Share your reflections in the comments below . First of all , I apologize for getting " In Summer " stuck in your head for those that have listened to Frozen on repeat like our class has . For the past 3 months . Every . Single . Day . I hope you 're having a great summer , whether you 're with kids or not . And if you 're going on any field trips , I feel your pain ; best of luck to you . I 'm going to have some exciting things going on in my shop ! First of all , if you 've seen my newest " Aloha " lesson plan on TPT and TeachersNotebook , you may have noticed Rosie tagging along . She 's my little Google + avatar and you 'll be seeing a lot more of her in the months to come . I 'm going to add her to my lesson images little by little so that no matter where you see them , you 'll automatically know where it 's coming from . I 'm also going to work on expanding my TN shop . They have a lot to offer and while I 'm loyal to TpT , I love the interface and feel of TN . When I 'm not working on my shop , I 'm organizing ! If you knew me , you 'd know what a gigantic undertaking this is . During our workdays , my assistant does a fantastic job of organizing the centers , but of course they never stay that way . Meanwhile , the teacher 's areas get neglected so the children will have something nice at eye level . With our numbers low , I 'm taking this challenge head - on ! I didn 't take a " Before " picture of the art cabinet , but it looked something like this : But I worked on the art cabinet today and here it is now ! By the way , I recently discovered a place called the Scrap Exchange . If you 're in Durham , I suggest you check it out . If you 're not , look around and see if you can find or start something like it . They sell recycled materials for cheap . If you can think of it , chances are they have it . I got grocery sale signs , a sign that said , " We go nuts for healthy eating , " and some great printing materials for art , and an entire pack of folders . All for $ 3 . 50 ! How are you spending your summer ? See you soon ! This means that I 'll be blogging a little less since I won 't be planning this summer . I 'm going to use the time to work on my TpT shop and keep you posted on happenings and ramblings in general . Look for a freebie soon ! This time of year is a bittersweet time for us as teachers , especially since we 're in the unusual position of knowing exactly who we 're getting from the younger classes . But that 's a good thing ! Use this time to talk to the teachers about which strategies have worked . And hope that they 'll rise to the structure in your classroom as they continue to grow . We have to remember too that this is also a confusing time for the students . We had some good conversations about " aloha " meaning " Hello " and " goodbye . " As a group , we talked about saying goodbye to old friends and saying hello to new ones . They got a little sad thinking about losing their friends . It helped that we had talked about making friends previously , so we were able to draw on that knowledge and review it . The week before , we 'd talked about kindergarten and visited a class next door to our center . We took along scavenger hunt sheets and the kids had a blast . It 's hilarious how shy even the most rambunctious ones get ! Overall , it was a good week . This week , we 're relaxing . We had our end - of - year luau last week and have already lost one student for the summer . So I 'm digging into my Pinterest page ! You know the ones . . . you collect all these great ideas and then they just sit there . Maybe you can 't find a theme to fit it in or maybe it just got buried . We 're having a blast . So far , we made tape - resist letters with gloss paint ( corn syrup and food coloring ) , drew pictures and painted them with gloss paint . The kids loved it and asked for it repeatedly . It turned out to be a great sensory experience since it was so sticky . We found out quite on accident that it resists crayons and makes great stained glass if you paint on white paper and hang it in the window . Later in the week , we drew what was missing from various pictures . We had a nice circle time beforehand about what was missing and what might complete it . Some responses included " turtle shell , " " wings , " and " tentacles . " All for the same picture of a person . There were quite a few students who opted simply to create rather than extend , and that 's ok too . I 'm going to miss these kids . Posted by Is this a hard time of year for you ? I know I usually start feeling a little overwhelmed . Transition meetings , increased energy from the kids , and just a general feeling of denouement from the rest of the year ( thanks , English concentration ! ) It 's hard to stay motivated . So we talked about plants ! I 'd like to say we did lots of fancy stuff like food coloring carnations , but we didn 't . And that 's ok . Sometimes the best thing you can do if you 're feeling unmotivated is to do something simple and manageable . First , we talked about Plants . I got some opinions from the class about what plants are . How do we know they 're plants ? I got some great responses : " they have leaves , " " they grow in the ground . " One of the best days on this topic came from the circle a few days later . All week , I 'd been building up that we were going to eat plants , with the predictable funny reactions of " Eww ! No ! " They were left to wonder for a few days while we worked on Handwriting without Tears and IY Dina . On Friday , finally they got to see what I was talking about . I pulled out our list and reviewed it . Then I pulled out some nectarines and showed them the stems along with pictures of nectarine trees . I showed them some grapes . The kids gave some examples about where fruits and vegetables come from and it turned into a very long circle time . On reflection , I think I let it go a little too long because by the end , the kids were restless and excited and we had to channel that energy during centers . Or maybe it was just a warm spring day . I love doing taste tests because the kids are more apt to try food that 's part of an activity than they are if it 's served to them . Plus , you never know what the kids get at home . During lunch , we had several kids trying " tangerines " ( they had trouble saying " nectarines " ) and grapes and loving them . No pictures because it was lunchtime and we were all busy preparing for naptime . As part of the week , I found some discounted flowers at the local big box store . ( This is why preparation is important ; I ended up running to the store that morning and had to throw out some of my flowers because they were poisonous ! Oops . ) Before small groups one day , I asked them questions helping them to observe the flowers . Then they all went to small groups and drew what they saw . We really have some " budding " artists in our class ! Another fun observation we did was " picked " vs . " live " flowers . What are your thoughts about flowers outside ? I want to encourage the children to explore the flowers on our bushes on the playground , but if they pick them all , there won 't be any left . I picked one of the blooms and asked them what they thought would happen . We got some good answers , like " it will die . " " It won 't look good . " At the end of the week , we looked at them both again and the students saw the difference . Last week , we talked a little about what plants need and how they use roots to get them . I also added in some birds because some of the students were interested in them . We talked about birds living in tress and what would happen if all the trees were cut down . I also got to read one of my favorite books , " 13 Words " by Lemony Snicket . If you don 't use big words in your classroom , start . It 's amazing how quickly children can pick up context clues and meanings . They love being detectives . " Look at his face : what do you think ' despondent ' means ? " This week , we extended the roots idea because I wanted to show them the food coloring / daisy experiment . We wrote down our predictions and on Friday , we 'll talk through them and record our observations through drawing . Do you have plants at your center ? How do you incorporate them into your lessons ? A post about my latest classroom activities is coming , I promise . This past week I 've had meetings with my boss , parents , and a staff meeting . Plus I 've been calling UNC and bothering them about how I can afford school . I decided that it 's not really feasible this time around and will try again in 2 ( ! ) years , when the program 's offered again . Last year , I took this fantastic workshop called " Lifting Voices , " about how we as teachers have the power and the responsibility to enact change . I 'm part of their email list and received this email today . Even if you don 't live in NC , check your state to see if they 're meeting as well . Get involved and make sure your voice is heard ! the session , please contact your legislators to let them know how important early education is to you and your community . Write letters to the editors of your local media and showcase a local program or a child or family that benefits from early education . Save the date for Child and Family Advocacy Day on June 10th and come to Raleigh to show your support for early childhood education . We 'll prosperity . Don 't delay - take action today to support thousands of young children and families and ensure the future of early childhood education in North Carolina . Please let us know if you have any questions , concerns , If you no longer wish to receive e - mail from us , please click here . Have you ever lifted your voice for change ? Tell us about it in the comments below ! Yes , this is a sob story . It 's also a great opportunity for you to get customized products and a shameless attempt at begging : ) If you want , you can skip this post and I 'll have a regular classroom post up soon . The good news is , I 've been accepted into the graduate teaching program at UNC Chapel Hill . It 's a Master 's of Education focusing on Early Childhood , leadership , and National Board Certification . This program includes reflection , research , immigration issues , and everything I would need to become a more effective leader and in turn , share my knowledge with you . Today I found out that federal aid doesn 't exist for graduate students . Just a big , fat NOPE . I 'm applying for as many scholarships as I can but right now the only options are to either eat into savings or get another loan ( while still paying my old one off ) . SO . What I 'm going to do from now until the end of the month is run a series of 20 % sales on my TPT store . You 'll get some great products while knowing that you 're helping out a fellow teacher . I 've been doing some introspection this week and thought I 'd share my thoughts with you . I 'm an introvert , through and through . Put me in front of a crowd and I love it . Organized notes , shiny pictures , sharing my experience : I love it . But put me in a one - on - one conversation or a party situation and I freeze up like a deer in headlights . This has made being a teacher a challenge . I like quiet and order . I 've come to terms with the fact that some areas of the classroom are just going to be messy ( like my desk . And Dramatic Play center ) . I let the kids get messy in art and allow extra time to clean it up . I 've learned to ignore behaviors that don 't hurt anyone else or interfere with learning , although there are days when everything seems to bother me and I need to take lots of deep breaths . My biggest challenge is working with my team . Don 't get me wrong : I have a great team that 's creative and loves the kids and works hard . My problem is that if they don 't directly tell me something 's wrong , I might miss it because I 'm more focused on the activity in the classroom . I 've read some great articles online about being an introverted teacher and looked through my resources . My boss has been helpful , too , in helping me be more of a leader with my team and realizing what they need . To get around this , I 've found some strategies that might be useful to my fellow introverts : 1 . Accept it . It 's ok to be an introverted teacher . There are lots of us out there and it can be a really useful style , especially when it comes to working in small groups . 2 . Use resources about parent relationships and child relationships to help you with your working relationships . It 's a process . There 's a ton of information out there about Active Listening , making sure you use praise , talk to each of them about something positive every day . The conversations with your coworkers don 't need to be long ; it 's a matter of " faking it til you make it . " 3 . Interact with others in ways that make you feel comfortable . I prefer large groups , preferably around eating or gaming . That way , there 's something else to focus on besides conversation , which I don 't have to carry . 4 . Recognize your other qualities and strengths . The world values extroversion , but introverts are awesome too ! We get lost in good books , we can be good listeners , we can have inner strength . Focus on the great things about yourself and how you succeed at work . 5 . Make time for yourself . I need my lunch . I sit in the back and crochet and if I don 't get it , I get cranky and exhausted . If you don 't have a lunch , try taking a minute or two longer in the bathroom or work some time in at the end of the day . Every day , do something that makes you happy that 's just for you . 6 . Open up to your coworkers . Be honest and say , " I may have trouble communicating with you until I get to know you . Make sure to let me know what you need and I 'll make sure to check in with you . " I know I was quiet last week . I was recovering from vacation and finding my groove . I 've also been crocheting a bit more lately as I 've had some ideas from the beach ! So I didn 't take many pictures last week . We talked about wheels and how they make cars go . We looked at the differences between a truck and a racecar , then drew a fast car . The students had to tell us why their car was fast and we dictated it . In art center , we set up mini cars and paint . We encouraged the children to run the cars through the paint and then on the paper . Quite a few of them had qualms about it , probably because we 've had other students draw on cars before and they got in trouble . They had fun once they got into it and were crashing into each other in no time . In block center , students set up ramps and had lots of fun jumping cars off of them and seeing how far they could go . It was a great chance for experimentation and changing their environment to test hypotheses ( one of the NC Foundations ! ) This week , we 're studying air and its effect on vehicles . We started to track the weather by letting one student draw the weather on a chart . Science and writing integration for the win ! Yesterday , we looked at what the weather had been like the past couple of days and the students drew a picture of what they thought it would be today . Without prompting , we heard some great weather words : " Stormy , " " Cloudy . " I found a blanket with a map of the US on it , so I 'll start filming the students talking about weather with a cardboard microphone . My favorite activity of the week was turning Dramatic Play into an airport . I found these great signs from the Sparklebox site and put them on some shelves in the center . I printed out boarding passes and put them in their own labeled container . Food was available near a restaurant sign and I had chairs set up nearby for an airplane . The kids loved handing food out to the passengers on the plane , packing their bags , and handing out tickets . I guided the pilots through what pilots would normally say on a flight and let others who wanted to fly be a copilot . The best part is , it took maybe 10 minutes to set up while using resources we already had ( bookbags , a hat , and an old pair of headphones ) . We 're exploring air , too . We blew paint through straws and talked about how the letter " P " makes a puff of air on our hands . Tomorrow , we 're going to create boats from styrofoam and paper and set them afloat in the water table . We have a long weekend this week , so I 'll update and share once I get the unit plan up on TpT and TeachersNotebook . I should be able to have some great pictures for you then , too . 50 posts already ! This blog has grown a bit since the first post and I hope it will keep growing . Thanks for all your support ! So it 's been a busy week ! My last post talked about teamwork . We continued rainbows this week and had a few surprises . My favorite part of the week was making the Cloud in a Bottle . I got this fabulous idea from Pinterest and we ended up using it for 3 days straight in order to let as many children try it as possible . If you 've never done it before , try it ! Just put shaving cream on top of water in a jar ( closely supervised ) and let children drop watercolors onto the shaving cream . It 's a great way to talk about clouds and why it rains . We had a limited number of pipettes , so I 'll have to make sure I have more next time . It was a great way to strengthen fine motor skills by squeezing the dropper . When they were done , the children used their scientific skills to observe the jar and record ( draw ) what they saw . Some pictures are below : Wednesday , we were visited by Dina from the Incredible Years program . She talked about working together and we paired the children up to put a puzzle together according to skill level , strong skilled with weak - skilled . I was really proud of the way the children helped each other . Some of the children I was worried about were encouraged by their teammate and did a fantastic job sharing and working together . Yesterday , we had an unexpected writing activity . We read " I am a Rainbow " by Dolly Parton , which is about various feelings using colors of the rainbow . When we were done , one child commented that the color orange is missing from the book . We had a short discussion about what " orange " would feel like and wrote our own verses to it . I wrote the responses down . I wish I 'd had time to let them illustrate it , but it was time to go out . Some of my favorites : Since it was rainy out today , the children mixed white , black , and grey paint and made clouds out of squish art . They dictated to us what they looked like . When they 're dry , we 're going to put them in a class book with the same cover as " Spilt Milk . " I 'll show you some pictures when it 's done ! Whew ! Next week , I 'll be on vacation . Well - earned , if you read regularly . When I come back , it 's time to talk about transportation ! We 're spending two weeks on it so it should give us a chance to really study it and see how everything works . It 's focused on classrooms that include children with disabilities or are in low - income families . I can 't wait to share everything I 'm learning with you ! Of course this also means my posts might become more sporadic starting in May and they might be shorter , but they will still be uplifting . Make sure you follow me so you 're in the loop ! Email signups are at the bottom of the page . We 've been talking a lot about teamwork lately in our classroom , but it can be hard to know where to start . I 've had a lot of help from the IY Dina program , where the class spent two days focusing on how to work in teams . First , they worked together to build according to a model , and then something more freeform the next day . In between days , we encourage teamwork in the centers . Most of the kids show teamwork in one way or another ; they 've had almost a year to make friends and learn how to play with each other . Of course , there are always some that need a little bit of help . It 's amazing to see the other students step up in this area . I 've noticed several times where a child has had trouble and another child was already helping them when I walked over . It can be easy to guide children who are fighting over toys to work together on it instead ; when they do , they learn problem - solving skills and the good feeling that working together brings . It 's Dr . Seuss week this week and I have a great freebie in Spanish and English on TeachersPayTeachers ! I 'm hoping it will inspire parents to read with their kids ; I 'll let you know next week . We got off schedule this week due to snow and an ice storm that knocked out power in my town and the ones surrounding it , so hopefully next week I 'll have some great items to share as we make books and rhymes . I 'll also share some actual pictures of the Pets . The last two weeks have been dedicated to Pets . A lot of the children were talking about what they have at home and one just got a new puppy . Perfect ! We made a chart we made of animals that we thought would make good pets and bad pets . I drew a line down the middle . On one side , I wrote " Good " and drew a smiley face ; the other was marked " bad " and had a picture of a frowny face . " Snakes " shows up twice , in both columns . Debate is an amazing tool to jumpstart thought . Some of these animals showed up as ' good " pets , like the zebra . Jellyfish was a bad pet because of the stingers . Pic from clker . com After we talked about it , the kids drew in their weekly writing journal a picture of an animal . They told us whether it would be good or bad and why . Some of my favorite responses : Sorry I 've been neglecting this blog lately . I 've been : working on an IEP for a picky parent . Trying to get my Personal Statement together so I can apply to grad school ( 2 - 3 pages single spaced ) . Catching up from snow days with parent letters in both English and Spanish . Whew ! So I heard some good advice today and thought I 'd share it . It 's March , it 's Wednesday . Spring isn 't here yet and you might be running out of ideas and patience . Don 't worry ! That 's why this blog is here . TeachersPayTeachers is having a big sale Feb . 27 - 28 . As a bonus , lots of teachers ( including me ) are opting to let you get an additional 20 % off of products . Don 't be shy ; if you don 't see something you want or if you want a bundle , just ask . Well , it 's Thursday . 1 more day until Friday . To help you get through , let me introduce you to one of my favorite pieces of music : Rhapsody in Blue by George Gershwin . Don 't be put off by the length ; leave it on in the background as you read and browse . Listen to that soaring clarinet in the beginning . Doesn 't it just lift your spirit ? Make you feel just a little bit more relaxed and happy ? As the music gets faster , doesn 't it also increase your mood ? Tonight 's Presentation This week , I introduced the class to jazz in honor Black History Month . I don 't do a lot for this month ; instead I spread multicultural influences through the topics throughout the year . But in February , when the weather 's dreary , it 's time for a boost . By the way , if you want to see a complete set of ideas for jazz or just music in general , you can go here . A Short Musical History Lesson You may think you don 't like jazz ; in fact , it influenced modern music . Let 's take an example : Justin Beiber . I hate his music , but he says he was influenced by Stevie Wonder . His influences ? Ray Charles . His ? Blues , gospel , and jazz , including Nat King Cole . Wonder was born in 1930 , so he would have been 9 when Benny Goodman was popular and 12 when Rhapsody in Blue was commissioned for a third time . Then you have Jerry Lee Lewis , who listened to gospel growing up . What were you listening to when you were 9 ? Do your own experiment : how far back can you trace your favorite modern artist ? On With the Show ! So how did the children do with jazz ? They loved it ! I pulled out the laptop during circle . After I had them guess what instrument was on a flash card , I pulled up videos of Neal Peart , Benny Goodman , Santana , and Thelonious Monk . I pointed out different instruments as they used them and challenged them to listen for them . After they were done , we did music BINGO . * One little boy warmed my heart . He 's hardly ever here , but when he is , he tries so hard and picks up on things quickly . He 's currently in speech therapy . He was one of the first to pick up on instrument names and did extremely well at BINGO ! * Earlier this week , we did art to music . A blue collage to Rhapsody in Blue with fabric , paper , yarn , pencils , and crayons . Here are some pictures : Tomorrow , we 're looking at our favorite songs on sheet music . We 'll be focusing on the rhythm and finding the rhythm in our names . The students will be learning syllabication , directionality , one - to - one correspondence , counting , and even some division ! That 's a lot of skills for " Old MacDonald . " I put the links on my Pinterest page under " Literacy . " To top it off , the kids reached their class reward ( with a little extra encouragement and rewards from me ) so they got to bring in a favorite CD this week . We 've had Willy Wonka , Bob Marley , Jesus Loves Me , and traditional kids ' songs . One kid didn 't bring in a CD , but he wanted me to play " Cum On Feel the Noize " by Quiet Riot . I played him KISS ' " Rock and Roll All Night " instead . Next week , if the kids are still interested , we might extend music a little . I have the feeling that even if we move on , we 'll still talk about it against the backdrop of the topic . Encore Valentine 's Day is one of my favorite holidays to share with the kids . Recently I looked through my sensory table resources and saw an idea for a monochromatic sensory bin . Nothing groundbreaking , to be sure , but I spiced it up a little bit and thought I 'd share . Sensory tables are great for exploration , but my class is very task - oriented . Some children simply will not stay in a center if my assistants and I don 't guide them a little and say , " Why don 't you try . . . ? " So when I saw this idea , I added lots and lots of different red materials from around the classroom : shredded crinkle paper , fabric of different textures , tissue paper , construction paper , shiny crinkle stuff . This is what it looks like : I 'm quite proud of it . It 's laminated so as they find the items , they can cross them off with a dry erase marker . Math , literacy , persistence , and sensory all rolled into one ! Here 's one boy testing the concept : We had just finished up our Ocean topic , so my first thought was " Sea monsters . " Then I started brainstorming . Obviously , we couldn 't talk about zombies or real monsters , but we could talk about mythical animals . We had a lot of fun , even with some snow days . You can view my lesson packet here soon for the full set of ideas . Cock - a - Doodle Moo : a Mixed - Up Menagerie This book introduces the children to some classic mythical beasts : gryphon , hippocampus , and a few other mixtures of animals . It then went on to combine animals in new ways . The children loved the pictures and silly names . The next day during circle time , I reviewed the book and talked about how they came up with names . Then , they got to make their own . I gave them heads and bodies from magazines and they creations they came up with hilarious ! Some of them even came up with great names for them . I think my favorite was " Cat Monkey Bomb . " Sorry , I didn 't get any pictures of them . Some of the children got philosophical yesterday . We had been reading this book , which talks about reality and imagination . I wish the other children had not been so antsy ; we were done with the book and they wanted to go outside . Two of the children got into an argument about what is real and what isn 't . I asked , " How do you know ? " One of them said , " You can 't see it ! " I said , " You 've never seen my house . I could live in a box . " " NOOoo ! " they chorused . The other child said , " Well dragons are real to me ! " I guess that settles that . This is a funny take on a classic tale . We carried that discussion over into the next day , when we talked about unsolved mysteries . I got some great gasps that day . Inspired by a giant Kraken I saw on Pinterest , we made our own giant sea monster . Giant sea monster ! It ended up being about 10 feet long . Some children drew a monster instead , so we gave it friends . The head is on the right and the tail is on the left . Banned book bonus ! It also inspired the classic 80s movie Labyrinth . My kids liked it well enough that they remembered what would happen the second time we read it . They liked pointing out small details in the pictures . We also created some great art : The name of this blog is now " Pursuing Wonder . " I think it gives a better sense of what my classroom and this blog is all about . Make sure to update your feeds ! How are the Legos set up in your classroom ? Our Block center happens to be far away from Dramatic Play , but I 'll probably change that next year and put them together . I do , however , keep a small box of blocks in our Dramatic Play section and the girls like playing with them just as much as the boys . They 're not pink and purple , but bright primary colors that all children like . We also have a box of giant legos we pull out and dump on the floor at least once a week . There 's lots of research that says that girls in general are behind in science and math careers . Building with blocks helps build spatial skills , fine motor skills , and social skills like teamwork . To celebrate Dr . Seuss ' birthday , both the " Celebrating Literature " lesson and " Storytelling 4 - lesson pack " are 15 % off . Also , you can save on " Fishy Sorting Activity , " which is a great companion to One Fish , Two Fish , Red Fish , Blue Fish . Click the links above or this big shiny button below . Let 's stop for a second and admit that we live in a fast - paced world . ( If this isn 't true for you , bear with me for a minute . Also , please share your secret in the comments ) If you 're a parent , you rush to get the kids up in time for school . You rush to work in the morning . You rush to meet deadlines at work , however big or small . You rush home and maybe rush your children off to karate or dance or sports . Take a minute . Fold your arms up like a pretzel and literally unwind as you breathe out . Close your eyes and think of something that makes you happy while you breathe in and out , slowly . Here , have a kitten . There are lots of great activities out there for whatever your theme may be . The problem with many of them , and I 've been guilty of this too , is that they only last a week . Even theme books that have each month organized by topic are broken down into weekly themes . You spend a week on caring for babies and the next week , you 've moved on to something else . Are some of the children still interested ? Too bad . Now you 're doing dinosaurs because some of the girls said they like dinosaurs . I recently got some materials about connecting Preschool to Kindergarten . One of the big ideas from it is that children are required to do a lot in Kindergarten but what teachers really want to see is children who know how to think and be independent . Believe me , I was skeptical . Aren 't we supposed to give these kids a good foundation ? Don 't we have to focus on helping them learn their letters and being able to count to 20 ? Don 't we have to build on the children 's interests constantly ? The state Foundations say . . . Trust me , I know . Look , forget about Foundations and Common Core and Teacher Standards for a minute . You 're in this job for the kids . What the kids need to learn most is how to learn . Think about your favorite teachers . Did they give you facts or did they give you tools ? Did they cram information down your throat as they tried to make things fun by saying , " But the rest of the class is interested ? " Or did they say , " I see you have some questions . How are you going to answer them ? " Two weeks ago , my class started a unit on animals . We made a list of animals we wanted to learn about . I modeled questions and as children naturally asked questions through the day , I wrote them down . Sorry , I wrote on the other side before I took a picture of it . You can see the animal I drew along with types of animals and some rough sketches inside . The questions I modeled are on the bottom ; theirs are on the sides . Last week and this week , we 're finding out the answers to those questions . If you look at the chart , you 'll notice that lots of the animals live in the ocean so this week we extended that and started focusing on animals that live in the ocean . Now , I still don 't have everything perfect . But the discussion has been carried over . This week I felt that some real learning has taken place . I 've had kids start writing about ocean animals . I made a book that I wouldn 't have had time to make otherwise . We had children use big words like " camouflage " and " mammal . " We looked at gills and had a discussion about animals that breathe underwater for ten minutes . The best part of that is that it was led by the kids . It helped that I had the laptop for instant research and gratification . Last week , I realized something : I 've had time to breathe . My center toys are staying out longer . I 'm slowly adding more pictures because now we have time . My biggest worry was that the kids would no longer be interested , but they 've been diving into it right there with me , getting more excited about it . Not every child is interested in the theme , and that 's ok . Because these past few weeks , my focus has been on skills that I wanted the children to learn . Of course they 've always been there , but they 've been closely tied to the theme ; this week , my objectives are more general . Observe and record . Question . As for the NC Foundations , we 've covered them . Explore . Question . Write for various purposes . Research . Observe . Learn letters and phonics skills . Use technology .

He recently came out of hospital after having to have a hip replacement because of a fall . Now up till then , he went to the pub every night without fail . would stay in bed all day , just getting up to get ready for the pub . ( I must state in all honesty , I thought he was an alcoholic , but he has never drank in his flat , or in the day . ) He sleeps all day , getting up around 5 or 6pm if he is left . . He has a care package in place , but if they do manage to get him up , he sleeps on the settee . He now wants to sleep 24hrs a day . I have to beg him to get out of bed long enough to eat 3 meals a day . Has no interest in the newspaper , television nor the current political situation or for conversation . No information I have found on Alzheimers or dementia mentions constant sleeping as a symptom . I dont know what stage dad is at , he has no short term memory , he still knows me , but after I have gone will say he hasnt seen me in ages . I have to constantly repeat myself . Any advice or tips , or anything really would be helpful Welcome to the group . I 'm sorry that you had to find us . My father also had vascular dementia . He has been dead for a year . He died from an anuerism , so it wasn 't the dementia that killed him , but I did watch it cause him to deteriorate . The loss of the short term memory is extremely common and is a standard side effect of this type of dementia and also of Alzheimers . The fact that he says that he hasn 't seen you is because he can 't remember that you have been there . Not your fault . It 's the cause of the disease . And the fact that he just had surgery and anesthesia probably made his condition worse . Any time that you have major surgery and are put to sleep and have demetia , the drugs they use cause a slippage in their memory banks . So you can usually count on them coming out of the sugery worse than when they went in . Hard news to hear I know . The sleeping is also one of the side effects of the disease . Is your dad easily arosed > I mean can you get him up if you need to ? My Mom who had alzheimers used to sleep alot , but we could get her up by just telling her we wanted her to get up . . . is it that way with your dad ? I take it that your father is living alone at this point . You said he had a care package in place . May I ask what that is ? We don 't have that in the states so I 'm unsure of it . Is if food or people who come in to help or what ? Do you think that it might be time for your father to be in AL or a NH ? Is he on some type of medication that might be causing his excessive sleep patterns ? Another question for you . Do you have durable and medical POA for your father ? I don 't know how it works for you in England , but here it is needed for you to have any legal rights to speak with his doctors . I am sure that others will chime in with suggestions . We 're a welcoming group . . and sorry that you needed to find us . . . 02 - 04 - 2009 , 09 : 13 AM Re : Looking For Advice Please I would like to welcome you here also . So sorry you find yourself looking for answers . Because it means a loved one is slipping into this beast of a disease . My Mom also had two hip replacements and a few years later a knee replacement . It was Moms knee replacement and then abdominal surgery 4 months later when we saw a rapid decline in her abilities to function on her own . She was in her middle to late 70 's when the surgeries took place . It took awhile before we realized the decline was permanant . As ibake said " Hard news to hear " . But its true . Her short term memory was and is very bad . We therfore moved her to an Assisted Living Facility for her safety and our peace of mind . She has her own place with her treasures around her . She is content and safe . Looked after very well and shes not alone . In the end we ( sisters and I ) had to do what we thought was best for all of us . ibake has brought up some questions of importance . She , along with so many others helped me very much when I first came here . She thinks ahead . I needed help with everything . The ladies here can be a wonderful source of information . You came to the right place . Again Welcome and come back . This place is my lifeline to sanity . People who understand . . . . . . . . . . they are a gift . Yes , dad did get worse after going into hospital and having his op3 months ago , but mentally , he seems to be about the same as before he went in . You ask , can we get dad up when we want him to , well the answer to that is No . . . I have just been upto see him , and he was still in bed again ! I asked him to get up for his tea , but all I get is , I will soon , im tired , and then back off to sleep again . Yes dad lives alone , the care package consists of carers going into him 4 times a day to make sure he ok , ie getting up ( which he refusing to do ) washed / showered . Breakfast / Dinner and Tea . Sadly , my daughter died in November , I told social services that I didnt want to carry on being a carer , I just want to visit my dad . This hasnt gone to plan as yet . I still fetch his money , shopping , washing , make his tea , roll his cigarettes etc . My dad is only on Paracetamol for pain in his hip , and multi vitamns , so cant be them thats making him sleep like he is doing . I am able to speak with doctors about dad , he had to sign a letter giving his consent . How can he sleep for that long , Have also noticed this last week as well . you have to really listen to what he saying , as sometimes it dosnt seem to make sense ? Also , Thankyou to Chris for your reply , so glad I have you all . just wish I had done sooner Re : Looking For Advice Please Welcome to the board Helen . I to hate you needed to find us but glad you did . Much of what I read in your post reminds me of my Dad who also has Vascular Dementia . Yes , he sleeps a lot . He is in bed by 8 pm and may get up in time for his 11 : 30 am lunch . If he is not ready to get up he will wake up but tell you he is going back to sleep as your Dad does . Once up he snoozes in the chair most of the day . Like you , he knows me when I am in front of him but as soon as I leave he forgets I was there . I have gone to the bathroom only to come out and him be delighted to see me because he has not seen me in ages . His current memory is non existant . We answer the same questions over and over again and have give up on explaining things to him . He hates to take a shower but once you put food in front of him he will eat , all of it . Then he walks away from the table and wants to know when he gets to eat . The pain meds do have an effect on the amount of time they sleep and on their confusion level . Dad remained at the stage your Dad is in for a long time . His dementia was not a steady progression like with ALZ but more a step down with each vascular or other health episode . Each hospitalization , medical episode , surgery caused a worsening of his dementia . Be very aware of what is going on . Dad has started hallucinating , wandering , and becoming agitated after his last AFib episode . These episodes are intermittent with the sleeping episodes . The situation can change in an instant so be aware that you may have to change his care plan at any moment . I am so sorry about your daughter . I could not imagine your pain and understand your desire not to be the caregiver again . I do hope you can find a suitable situation for your Dad that you will not have responsibility for his day to day care . You may want to consider placement for your Dad , if not now then in the future , but it serves you well to be prepared . We ended up moving Mom and Dad into assisted living with Mom was diagnosed with Alzheimer and was n02 - 04 - 2009 , 10 : 56 AM Re : Looking For Advice Please I am so sorry to hear about your daughter , Dear Helen . May God give you the strength to keep on going . I hope you can get full time care for your father . Are you now taking care of your grandchildren ? What a terrible tragedy for them too . My friend 's sister now has Alzheimer 's , as my Mom did . This lady sleeps all the time . You can hardly get her up to eat . She lives in assisted living but this is obviously not enough care . . . she will have to be moved after only a few months . She also doesn 't remember her sister or her children , nieces and nephews or grandchildren . She asks over and over again who they are . My Mom also slept a lot during the final stage of her dementia . To me it means they do not have much more time left to live . Love , Martha Re : Looking For Advice Please Hello Helen . . . my welcome joins the others . This is such a bumpy road , isn 't it ? Sounds like you 've already almost reached your limit of heartache . . . so sorry about your losing your daughter . I hope you have the chance to go back and re - read lots of the other posts here . . . many things that may be helpful have already been discussed . When you mention how your Father seems to be . . . both inlaws also passed with Alzheimer 's not long ago . . . their death certificates said . . . " Failure to thrive ; Alzheimer 's " . My own Mom is in the 10th year after diagnosis , and in this last stage . . . but part of her just keeps holding on . . . So many of us here know exactly how you feel . . . and there are many shoulders offered . Hope to see you post again . . . you are not alone . . . . Pam Re : Looking For Advice Please Helen , My dear , my sympathy for the loss of your daughter . God never intended us to bury our children . Are you taking care of your grandchild now also ? Your father may be sleeping more because of the pain meds that he is on also . A common side effect of alot of pain meds is sleepyness . That combined with the dementia could be causing him to sleep even more than he was before . It could also be just that he is entering a later stage of the disease , and that he is getting older . all of these combined can have a cumulative effect on him I 'm sorry to say . He may be reaching the point where you might want to consider more support than you are already receiving for him . You have already had a difficult year in your family and caring for a dementia patient isn 't the most easy thing to do . You have my sympathy . . and my prayers . . . 02 - 04 - 2009 , 08 : 26 PM Re : Looking For Advice Please Helen , if he has vascular dementia , does he also have any heart problems , poor circulation , high blood pressure ? You did say he had a stroke . All of these are circulatory or vascular problems . As Dad 's doctor explained to me , if there is limited circulation in his legs or his heart , then why not his brain . All of these vascular conditions make you tired and weak . So that may be part of the explination for the sleepyness . I would put stock in the pain meds contributing as well . Also it takes longer for them to recover from surgery . The combination of the surgery trauma , the anesthetic , the pain meds , and all he went through are probably the main cause made worse by the dementia and circulation issues . I have never been able to peg Dad into a Level . Mom with her ALZ falls into a catagory much better than he does . Until his last AFib attack he was doing much more than he should have been . If you could talk him into the shower , he would do it himself . He would shave voluntarily . There were no toileting issues . He fed himself and his appetite was good . He just didn 't have any short term memory and was the poster boy for sundowning . I have watched his memory progress backwards . For years he talked a lot about his job , the national guard , and taking care of his family . Then he moved back to his military service . Now he is back to his young adult life when we were babies and there is also concern for his mother . At times he goes back into his teen year and talks about life on the farm . It is not as if they are memories but as if he is in that time again . I do listen to his ramblings now . . . . it 's like a history lesson of the 30 's and 40 's . The last two years he has been having hallucinations but they were not coupled with wandering or aggitation . They were easy to deal with . It has only been recently that he has started the agitation and wandering to fullfill the objective of the hallucinations . I am fairly certain it is a direct result of his vascular episode a few weeks ago . So yes , Vascula02 - 05 - 2009 , 02 : 30 AM I also have my own health problems ( COPD ) and rely on hubby to take me in the car to dads . I will deffinatly be going back through the posts , there is so much info here , what a great place to come . I dont know weather it just my doctors , but we dont seem to get much information from them . I get confused with the stages of dementia , isnt the last stage where he will mess the bed , and get agitated or violent ? Dad isnt doing this , and really dont think I could cope at that time ? deb , My dad lives in his teenager / young adult life , constantly going on about his dogs ( from when he was a boy ) . Whilst in hospital , he thought he was in the army barracks . Dad hasnt been wondering as yet , do they all do it / have I got that to come ? Can I ask what do you class as a vascular episode ? . The reason I ask is dads doctors dont seem too concerned about it , dad at times will seem a little more confused , a bit red in the face , and very quiet . The doctors say , well yes he could have had a mini tia , and dont do anything . ? It gets so frustrating at times . . . . Love Helen Re : Looking For Advice Please Dear Helen , First let me extend my heartfelt sympathies in the loss of your daughter . I can 't imagine the sorrow of losing my daughter . I 'm so sorry . As far as stages of dementia , every patient is different . Mom is so much worse when she is sick or has been in the hospital . When she began having TIA 's and problems with her heart she was put on blood thiners . When her face began to get red alot it meant her blood presure was getting too high and she was then put on medication . She now takes a host of meds to just keep her going . She does not wander as of yet . Thank God . If she does start this she cannot stay where she is because they are not equiipped to handle people who wander away . I don 't think everyone wanders . Its very hard to determine " stages " . Mom is different everyday . We explain this changing daily as " the light switch is on . . . . . . . . . . . then its off " . Just depends on the day . As I have come to understand the last stages , it is described as a " failure to thrive " . They are unable to swallow or won 't swallow , can 't walk and their bodies just shut down . My Grandma did this in the end . She had lost the ability to swallow , process sounds , she couldn 't see or I guess understand what she was seeing so she kept her eyes closed . The only time she spoke was to cry for her Mom . She was very healthy physically . This last stage for Gram only lasted a few weeks . She was 97 and did not take any meds at all . Never , not one . But the ALZ took her . Mom is not healthy at all . She has quite few serious conditions . My sisters and I pray that she does not live long enough to go through what we saw our Gram have to endure . So we wait and take care of her the best we can . Oh my goodness , a teenager ? ? ? I 'm not sure I could go through raising one again . LOL They are tough to deal with aren 't they ? I suppose I could do what I had to do if my grandson needed me but you 've already been through so much . Bless your heart . Not sure if I 've helped you because each of our parents are so different in their decli02 - 05 - 2009 , 10 : 43 AM Re : Looking For Advice Please Helen , Chris is right , it is difficult at times to determine what state they fit in and I find it more difficult with Dad and his vascular dementia than with Mom and her ALZ . Dad can vary from hallucinating , wandering , incontinent , and unable to identifiy his girls to rather lucid and caring for himself in a matter of hours ( with a long sleep period in between ) . Mom on the other hand is more consistent . Read the stages in the sticky post called " 7 Stages of Alzheimer " . Take an average of what he can and can not do . Then see if you can plug that into a stage . Many times they are between stages . Mom is a solid stage 5 / 6 now . Dad is a solid 6 headed to 7 rapidly . Each is very different and will show different manifestations of behaviors depending on what areas of the brain are the most affected . Sorry to say there are many doctor 's that don 't have a clue about dementia . Dad 's first doctor misdiagnosed him with ALZ when in fact he has vascular dementia . Mom 's first doctor misdiagnosed her with depression . Mom 's second doctor , even after an independent diagnosis by a research service , told her she could continue driving if she " paid more attention " . ARG ! ! He was of the opinion that if you kept them active and at home that they would be fine . It was only after then moved to Assisted Living and came under the care of a geriatric specialist who is knowledgable of dementia that they got the care they needed . A vascular episode is anything that would give you indication that there is a blood flow problem . TIA ( Transischemic Attacks ) or strokes , heart attacks or any irregular heart beat pattern , extremely high blood pressure or extremely low blood pressure all come under that label . Dad has leg pains because of his Peripheral Artery Disease ( lack of blood flow in his legs ) and his confusion is worse when his legs hurt . The red face could be a result of a vascular problem and that could be a key . Dad 's last episode was Atrial Fib , and irregular heart beat . More than likely that shook loose small02 - 06 - 2009 , 03 : 33 AM Re : Looking For Advice Please Hi Chris , and deb . . . . . . . . Dad isnt on any blood thinners , in fact they said at the hospital that his heart is as stong as an ox . Your saying " the light switch is on . . . . . . . . . . . then its off " discribes dad perfectly . Looking through the sticky post " 7 Stages of Alzheimer " I would say dad is stage 6 , but whats the difference between that and the " Cognitive Decline " as dad is between 5 and 6 looking through those ? Re : Looking For Advice Please In my Mom 's case , the middle stage and the final stage were equally long , each around 2 years . I think it was in the early stages that I had the most heartache - nobody understood or accepted what was happening to Mom and I used all the wrong methods and all the wrong techniques in dealing with her , making it painful for both her and me ( at that time I lived with her . ) The final stage was when she was wheelchair bound , incontinent , and losing memory for old times as well as new . Then unable to chew , unable to swallow , unable to process food or medicine , and finally death . Altogether the disease lasted 8 or maybe 9 years , from the first sign that ' something was not quite right ' to her death . Love , Martha You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts BB code is On Smilies are On [ IMG ] code is Off HTML code is OffTrackbacks are Off Pingbacks are Off Refbacks are Off Forum Rules Sign Up Today ! Ask our community of thousands of members your health questions , and learn from others experiences . Join the conversation ! I want my free account Top 10 Drugs Discussed on this Board .

" No Thru Traffic " and the brevity of life . Posted on October 3 , 2016 by joeacast [ BIG NOTE : Our blog is moving ! On October 31 , the newest Overboard blogs will only be found at http : / / www . overboardministries . com . We hope you 'll hop on over there and continue following along ! ] I try to walk three to four times a week , partly to keep active and healthy , and partly to keep strengthening my knee after this past summer 's surgery . When I don 't walk with Traci , I often spend my time memorizing verses , praying or just thinking through the challenges and opportunities we 're currently facing . It seems like several blogs have emerged as a result of my walks . On my walk this morning I decided to take a detour through our local cemetery . I chuckled ( darkly ) as I entered thru the main gate due to the sign that read , " No Thru Traffic . " Indeed , the traffic headed to the cemetery is generally not headed out . And that 's when my stroll turned somber , as I snapped a few pictures , read a few names and tombstones and was reminded of the reality that life is short . Each tombstone in the cemetery represents a life , a story of someone who lived on this earth and engaged others . With their last names listed boldly for others to see , I began to wonder what these people had been like during their living years . Jackson , Walter , Titus , Campbell , Winter Thornburg , Hansen , Olsen , Eherhardt , Sherwood , White , Kies , Brown … on and on the names emerged from gravesite after gravesite . Some were adorned with freshly cut flowers , others hadn 't been visited in years . There is something very sobering about a cemetery and the certainty of death . Two years ago I wrote a series of blogs about being at the statistical half - way point of life . Now , as days turn into weeks , and as years roll by , the reality is that one day I too will be in a vehicle that will pass thru the iron gate baring the sign , " No Thru Traffic " and some other walker or jogger will pass by my tombstone and wonder what I was like , and be curious about the kind of life I had lived . Living the Overboard Life isn 't about fame , fortune , prosperity or comfort . Instead , the Overboard Life is a commitment to follow the Lord , whenever He calls , into any situation He has prepared for us . It 's about living life out of the overflow of God 's abundance , touching the heart of others with the life changing message of a relationship with God and living according to the design with which He has created in everyone of us . I left the cemetery today ( thankfully ! ) oddly encouraged to keep pursuing the Overboard Life . Right now life seems hard but only when I lose sight of the one whom I follow . When I keep focused on Him , I can grab the sides of the boat , jump out on the water and live the remarkable life to which I have been called . What about you ? Are you going through the motions ? Are you defining yourself by the past or letting fear and anxiety cripple your future ? Find real freedom by focusing yourself on the one who calls you out of the boat , and out on the water where He is doing His Kingdom work . That life will leave an extraordinary mark behind a tombstone some jogger will find on a quiet fall day , on a detour through the cemetery . Climb just a little higher … Posted on September 26 , 2016 by joeacast [ BIG NOTE : Our blog is moving ! On October 31 , the newest Overboard blogs will only be found at http : / / www . overboardministries . com . We hope you 'll hop on over there and continue following along ! ] Robert Goddard ( 1882 - 1945 ) may not be a name most of us are particularly familiar with , at least by name , but all of us are familiar with his work . You see , Goddard is considered by many to be the American pioneer of modern rocketry . He was a great scientist and an amazing inventor , the first to launch a rocket using liquid fuel . His scientific research and ingenious inventions made space travel possible for the world . Today , a friend of mine is working on a project to send a man to Mars ( yes , people are really working on sending a man to Mars ! ) and his project is built on the foundational work of Goddard . During his lifetime , Goddard didn 't seem to receive much of the appreciation or admiration that his scientific record deserved . But over the years , a great deal of research has revealed a lot about him , and his life . One story in particular really struck me as I learned about this amazing man . ( Incidentally , if you haven 't been to the Smithsonian Museum of Science and Industry , you must make an effort to see it in DC ! ) In his later years , Robert was asked what drove him to succeed . A lot of people had similar ideas about rocketry , but they were dismissed by the public and scientific community at large , and most of them gave up their pursuit of the sky . But Goddard never gave up . When asked , he would relate the following story . As a young boy , Robert 's parents supported his curiosity and even purchased him basic scientific equipment to encourage his growth in the sciences . Through his experimentation and study , he became enamored with the sky . Out behind the family barn , a tree had grown strategically to give Robert a glorious view of the sky , and from an early age he tried to get as close he could to the stars . When Goddard first climbed the tree , he saw the night sky in extraordinary fashion , but he wasn 't at the top of tree . The next time he climbed , he found a way to go just a little bit higher and through his effort discovered an even better view of the sky . Each time he got to the tree he took the same approach - climb just a little higher than the day before . Eventually , Robert reach the top of the tree and the best view in orchard . In Ephesians 2 : 10 Paul wrote , " For we are God 's handiwork , created in Christ Jesus to do good works , which God prepared in advance for us to do . " God 's plans and goals for us require our commitment , our passion , and a willingness to press on one day at time , seeking to move closer and closer to the goal with each day . Some days are difficult and painful , some are slow and plodding , but the goal is the same : press on toward 's God 's calling , doing what He has put in front of us to do . So the past few months have been hard , but I 'm clinging to the words from Paul and the life lesson from Goddard : pressing on just one day at time , trying to climb a little higher each day . Sometimes that climb requires lots of research and preparation , while other times it demands courage and bold action . While each little action may seem insignificant , combined they propel you further along the path towards God 's dreams for you , and that makes each step worth it . What are you for ? Posted on July 5 , 2016 by joeacast Back in May , Traci and I had the chance to visit with two of our Overboard Ministries supporters in Maryland , and take in a few baseball games with the Seattle Mariners and the Baltimore Orioles . We had a great time sharing about Overboard Ministries , watching baseball and enjoying a few days away together . He spent the entire bottom of the 4th inning harassing the Mariner 's left fielder . At first it was actually kind of funny , but as the inning and the game wore on , his harassing went from innocent fun to vulgar , crass and occasionally racist outbursts . Even some of his fellow Oriole fans began to ask him to cool it . That 's not some cheesy cliché that removes boundaries and rules from our lives , because you cannot read the Scriptures with any consistency and neglect the " thou shalt not " instructions . Instead , I think it 's a statement that reflects the intentions of God and the way He wants His children to live . Think about these three powerful " for " biblical statements about God 's relationship to us : As the Baltimore game came to an end , the loud fan had fired off his last few insults and headed out . I noticed an interesting contrast between him and most of the other fans leaving his section : he wasn 't all that happy even though his team had just won . His face didn 't reflect a smile or joy , instead his eyebrows were still furrowed and he wasn 't talking to anyone on his way out . Lessons from waiting Posted on June 30 , 2016 by joeacast I was in the ninth grade , and I was playing my oldest brother in basketball . He is nine years older than me , and in my short 14 - year - old span of life , I had yet to hand him a defeat in a game of one - on - one . On several occasions I had made some shots , developed an early lead and thought , " this time I 'm going to win ! " only to see my lead evaporate and have to hang my head in shame at another blown opportunity . I was now experienced enough to know I couldn 't take a lead for granted until the game was over . Most of our games went to 21 ( shots counted for one or two points ) or 31 ( shots counted for two or three points ) . On this day we were playing to 21 and I was red hot from two point range . I remember that I was up by 4 or 5 points when he made a run and cut the lead to one : I had 20 , he had 19 . I felt determined to finally beat my oldest brother , but another one of his comeback victories seemed inevitable . As he went to the hoop trying to tie it up , I blocked his shot , the ball hit off his leg and rolled out of bounds . Now it was my ball with another chance to win . As he " checked " the ball into play , I had a decision to make : Launch a two - point shot ( when we only needed one point to win , but we shot a two , we 'd declare , " One to win … two to rub it in ! " Believe me , I was thinking about it ! ) or try to use my height advantage to score the illusive game - winning point from close range ? I really didn 't want to blow another lead against him . Without question , God had a plan for them , just as I know He is working out His perfect plan for us . But during the journey , during the process of wandering in the wilderness , it is easy to lose sight of His hand at work . Over the past few months we 've continued to chase the massive dreams He 's given us , and in the process , tried to keep in mind the lessons this season of wandering has taught us . Here are seven truths about God and growth that apply to wandering with Him in the wilderness parts of life . God is in the wilderness . Sometimes it 's easy to feel alone in the wilderness . I 'm sure the Israelites - millions of them ! - felt a little abandoned at times during their years of wandering . They had very tangible signs of God 's presence but still , more than once they expressed their frustration about feeling discarded by God 's leadership . Don 't give in to the temptation to doubt God 's presence because life isn 't playing out how you hoped it would . God is in the wilderness , He is present and He is leading toward something , the question isn 't whether or not He is present , it is whether or not you will trust Him ! God is meeting needs in the wilderness . Our wilderness journey has revealed huge needs at times . I 'm talking about foundational stuff . When your kids are asking , " Hey dad , where are going to stay tonight ? " you know you 're in wandering in a wilderness of uncertainty . But God is in the wilderness and He is meeting needs . When the Israelites needed food , God met that need . When they needed water , He met that need . Since He is in the wilderness with us , He is giving us precisely what we need for the journey . God is providing refreshment in the wilderness . Not only is God meeting our basic needs while we journey , but He is giving us rest and refreshment while we travel . In one story of wandering Israel ( Exodus 15 : 22 - 27 ) , the Jews had moved for three days in the desert without finding water . Then , coming to a pool of water that seemed like a life - saver , they discovered that the water was so bitter they couldn 't drink from it ! God miraculously cures the water , and then , He leads them on a short trip to a place of rest : a place with 12 crystal clear streams of water , a great pool to drink from ( and I 'm sure play in ! ) and 70 palm trees under which you could spread out and rest . Even in the wilderness God turned bitter things sweet and provided rest . God want us to celebrate in the wilderness . I think this is one of the hardest lessons we 've learned , but when we practice it , we find such great freedom . Because God is showing up in big ways during our season of wandering , we realize that there are so many reasons to celebrate ! In Leviticus 23 God outlines all the celebrations the Israelites were to have , even while they were still wandering in the desert ! Yes , a couple of them could not be properly celebrated until they entered the Promised Land , but most of them could be practiced in the wilderness . God wanted them to celebrate His goodness while they were wandering . Have you taken time to celebrate even in your loss , heartache , suffering , confusion , frustration or anger ? It 's not easy or natural , but when we look for God 's work we 'll see He really is showing up in our lives . Then , even in our pain , we can celebrate what He is doing , while we still wait for His bigger answers to show up . God rewards faith in the wilderness . The wilderness is the testing ground of life , the place between where a vision captures our heart ( Egypt ) and where we see the fulfillment of that plan , goal or dream ( Israel ) . During the testing , God loves to reward us for faithfully following Him . In Numbers 14 there was a rebellion against God and His plan , but two men stood out ( 11 : 36 - 38 ) and God distinguished them from the others , and He blessed them with long life , physical strength and a special land blessing directly from the Lord . The wilderness wants to foster your doubts , create fear and build anxiety in you , but if you will lean into the Lord even more , you will find He loves to reward those who trust Him in the wilderness . God provides others in the wilderness . Traveling through the desert can feel lonely , but God has a way of providing others to encourage us along the way . Sometimes they are people who have traveled the road before us , people who can give us a map and show us the way through their own story . Other times it 's people who are traveling with us , people who are sharing the burden as we move from oasis to oasis together . In our lives , we are thankful to have experienced both - the compassion of fellow sojourners and the wisdom of those who have traveled before . Check out Exodus 18 for how God provided others for Moses , a man overwhelmed by the journey and the burden of leadership . God provides an end to the wilderness . One of the great hopes that keeps us moving through the desert is the knowledge that the wilderness will end ! Just as God brought Israel through the desert into the Promised Land , He is leading us through our wilderness - and He is leading you through your wilderness - to place He has prepared next for us . The wilderness is shaping us and preparing us to be ready for the big dreams and goals He has laid on our hearts , and we have confidence that the wilderness will end . He is the God who gives rest to the weary , takes the our heavy burdens and replaces them with His easy - to - carry - yoke , replaces anxiety with peace , weakness with strength and despair with hope . Even more , we know that , ultimately , after this life is over , the wilderness will de destroyed forever ! The Bible assures us that after this journey is finished , the next one with God will be wilderness free : " He [ God ] will wipe every tear from their eyes . There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pay , for the old order of things has passed away " ( Revelation 21 : 4 ) . But I 'd also be lying if I told you the best solution is run away from the wilderness as quickly as possible . Our season of troubles seems to be intensifying , but I already know I wouldn 't choose any other path . I 'm confident that when this wilderness season ends , we will marvel at the work God has done in us , through us and to us ; and that change will make the journey worth it ! P . S . I faked the two , got him to jump , and scored a game - winning layup . We still enjoy competing against each other and while the playing field may have leveled , I still don 't beat my brother often . That first win was one of the sweetest ! God cares about running shoes Posted on June 20 , 2016 by joeacast I 'm currently in the process of recovering from knee surgery and slowly getting back out on the streets and sidewalks of Kalkaska , building up my walking ( and soon , running ! ) stamina . Before surgery I was walking 3 - 4 miles , several times a week , and now I 'm lucky to get 1 - 2 miles , 2 - 3 times a week . Thankfully , my times are getting faster and my distances are lengthening . Prior to my surgery , though , I was a little worried about my shoe situation . I purchased two pair of shoes ( the exact same brand / style ) a couple years back when Traci and I were training for our first 1 / 2 marathon , and I was still wearing the second of those two pairs just weeks before my surgery . Good running shoes can be pretty spendy , and this current season of life hasn 't given us a lot of extra resources for $ 125 running shoes . A couple of weeks after we began praying for shoes , Traci came home from a ladies ' event at church with a large bag containing gifts . There was a smaller package for her , and … you guessed it … a shoe - box sized package for me . God didn 't just send along any old pair of running shoes , He sent along the exact same brand of shoe I had been running with before my surgery . And … I even liked the color . In Matthew 6 : 28 - 34 Jesus gives us some fine advice about the worries of this life : “… See how the flower of the field grow . They do not labor or spin . Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all His splendor was dressed like one of these . If that is how God clothes the grass of the field , which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire , will He not much more clothe you ? " And this passage finished up with these words : " Therefore do not worry about tomorrow … " What a profoundly clear and simple promise of God . If I could modernize this for a moment , it might have sounded like this : " Joe , if I care so much about you recovering from your knee surgery that I gave you brand spankin ' new shoes , the exact brand , size and color you would choose . Those shoes are going to be worn out in a few months time after you get walking and running again , so how much more do I care for life 's big problems ? And think about it , if I can adorn your feet like I did without breaking a sweat , are you really going to worry about how I will take care of your other needs , too ? " Whatever you 're going through today , whatever problems or challenges you may face tomorrow , don 't add worry to the list . Instead , embrace the words of Matthew 6 and remember that the God who provides food for birds and makes flowers beautiful despite their temporary nature , is the same God who meets the needs of His children . Pray and trust Him , and then watch for your " running shoes " to show up in an unexpected package . Sometimes life is so simple ! Posted on May 9 , 2016 by joeacast Two weeks ago I had the joy of taking CJ to her first concert . We attended the Big Daddy Weave , Beautiful Offerings Tour , with Jordan Feliz and Plumb . It was a fantastic show and we had a blast together . After each artist had performed a small set , Big Daddy Weave took the stage for a few songs . Then , following a short intermission , all three artists were on stage at the same time , and they led the audience in some great worship sets . As I looked down front at CJ , I noticed something precious : She was all - in during the worship set . White watching her enjoy the concert , I thought about all the things she wasn 't thinking about . She wasn 't worried about the upcoming election . She wasn 't worrying about the world terrorism issue , the bathroom debate or local law enforcement concerns . Not once did she ponder our family 's financial situation or even what we would eat on the way home . After the concert when I asked her what she was doing up front ? She looked at me puzzled and said , " singing and worshipping , God … and waving to Plumb . " In 1 Corinthians 10 : 31 , Paul writes , " So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do , do it all for the glory of God . " It 's so simple , just do everything you do with the aim of bringing glory to God . It 's simple , but certainly not easy . Don 't worry about what others around you are thinking . As Celina sat up front , took pictures , sang and waved to artists , she didn 't care what anyone else around her was thinking . She was living completely in the moment , almost as though there weren 't 1 , 000 other participants in the auditorium . It 's hard to live a life that brings glory to God , when you spend time trying to make sure others are happy with the way you are living . Engage in daily activities at 100 % . Have you ever been doing one activity , while being focused more on the next activity ? How about with food ? Have you ever been eating , and while you 're still chewing one meal , you are already thinking about the next one ? I am confident that one of the ways we bring glory to God in everything we do , is by being 100 % engaged in whatever is in front of us , now . It doesn 't mean loving everything we 're doing , but it means giving it our all , our full attention , so that we are giving our best and not our left overs . Enjoy what you do . While we may not love everything we do , we must be able to find joy in every task . As my close personal friend , Mary Poppins , has said , " A spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down ! " Joy is a big ol ' dose of sugar that can overcome any kind of medicine . Maybe that 's why the writer of Hebrews tells us , that Jesus , " for the joy set before Him , endured the cross … " Jesus swallowed the bitterest pill of all ( our sin ! ) with joy ! Savor the sweet moments , but don 't live in the past . A couple days after the concert , CJ and I looked thru the hundreds ( yes … hundreds ! ) of pictures she had taken that night . It was truly a sweet night for her , and she savored it fully . Having her picture taken with Jordan Feliz and Plumb may well have given her the greatest satisfaction in her short ten year life span . And yet , as satisfying as it was , she wasn 't spending her day lamenting about " the good ol ' days " at the concert last weekend . She was fretting that she doesn 't presently have another concert on her agenda , nor the fact that she still owes her parents a couple of dollars for the extra CD she purchased from Plumb . She savored the moment for what it was , but she isn 't living her life in the past . If you cling to the past for any length of time , you will soon find it difficult to live 1 Corinthians 10 : 31 in the present . Life is pretty simple sometimes , especially when we boil it down the basics . The king of basics ? do everything in life with the goal of bringing glory to God . Do that , and you will be living the Overboard Life ! At that moment , the little red car turned right on the street on which I was preparing to turn left , and then they pulled in to the parking lot of of the first business ; the funeral home . That 's right , they were grieving the loss of a loved one and stopping by for the visitation that was taking place that afternoon . And I was mad that I had to wait an extra 22 - seconds to make my turn . I 'm a pretty laid - back driver , and while I might chirp occasionally at someone else 's demonstrated skills - don 't get me started on unobservant gender specific SUV drivers talking on their cell phones ! - I 'm not one to honk my horn , fire off any kind of gesture or stare and shake my head condescendingly as though I don 't make any mistakes as a driver . I 'm especially glad I didn 't lay on my horn and scream at the couple in the little red car last week . As I drove past the funeral home I was struck by the contrast in emotions in our two cars . In the little red car , there was a heaviness and sadness , probably a sense of loss , and , as is pretty common with funerals and death - an awareness of their own mortality . In the little red PT Cruiser driving by , frustration had been replaced by shame and humility ; a sense of irritation was being replaced with compassion . After all , would I rather be a running a few minutes late picking up my daughter , or showing up on time to a loved one 's funeral ? I 'm reminded of Matthew 's words about how Jesus viewed people in Matthew 9 : 36 . When Jesus saw people who were " harassed and helpless , " people who were discouraged and facing trials , Matthew say , " He had compassion on them … " He wasn 't frustrated by their lack of direction . He wasn 't irritated by their neediness . He wasn 't put off by their sorrow or slowness . Jesus looked out on people around Him and He had compassion . Living like the UPS man Posted on May 2 , 2016 by joeacast Traci and I just attended a weekend seminar on the topic of generosity . We enjoyed an awesome time with old friends , made some new friends and were challenged by the biblical teaching and practical lessons on generosity . I 'm sure there will be some future blogs coming from this amazing weekend . One of the take - a - ways for me came from a group discussion about how God 's Word emphasizes our lack of ownership in this world . The concept is so backwards because most of the time we are working so hard to own more , to have more and to expand our little piece of earth . We congratulate people who buy more and bigger things and we dream about what owning a bigger house might look like and how we might use it for good . Of course , ownership isn 't a sin , and having a nice car and big house doesn 't violate any commands in God 's Word . The problem is how we view our possessions , our money and the different resources He has given us . This past weekend we were given the acronym LIFE to categorize all these things : Labor , Influence , Financial resources , Expertise . All of these items are gifts from God , and truthfully , none of them are ours . You see , God views us as managers , not owners . Jesus told many parables about our relationship to LIFE , and in each one of them we are the workers , the servants and the managers of what the owner possesses . One person in our group described it this way : " We 're like the UPS driver . If he were to take any of the packages home , he would be stealing . His job is just to move them from one location to the other . " What a perfect description of what the Overboard LIFE should be ! We aren 't the owners of the gifts , talents , riches , expertise and skills God has given us , but we are the managers - the delivery men - to oversee how those things are used for God . In 2 Corinthians 1 : 3 - 4 Paul reminds us that what God gives us is meant to be given away to someone else . In that passage he specifically states that when God provides comfort for us , He intends for us to give that comfort to others . We aren 't the new owners of comfort , we are just delivery men ( and women ! ) to pass along what God has graciously given to us . Later , in 2 Corinthians 9 , Paul describes our relationship to money the same way : we are managers and middlemen , not owners . God has provided for our needs , and He intends that we maintain an open hand toward generosity , not a closed hand toward scarcity . God rewards generosity in so many ways ( I found at least 12 rewards of generosity in 2 Corinthians 9 : 6 - 15 ) , so He challenges us to trust Him ! Malachi 3 : 10 states it best , " ' Test me in this [ generosity ] ' says the Lord Almighty , ' and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have enough room for it . ' " Scoffing at a million dollars Posted on April 25 , 2016 by joeacast Last Tuesday I surprised my son after school with a man date to the theaters - it was time we watched Batman vs Superman . Since his routine is to grab a bite to eat as soon as school gets out , we swung by McDonald 's for a quick bite . While standing in line we started talking about the Monopoly game pieces they give out , and AJ asked , " If you won a million dollars from the game , how much would you actually receive ? " I told him that I had read a story of instant millionaires , and that most of them were shocked that they only received about 35 - 40 % , between $ 600 - $ 650 , 000 / per million after taxes . AJ was appalled . He said , " You 'd think that a business like McDonald 's could afford to give someone a million dollars after taxes . I mean , they make billions a year , so a million really isn 't that much ! " My son was complaining about a million bucks . Naturally , I informed him that if he won the instant cash on his game piece , I would happily relieve him from the burden of disgust that he 'd bear for only receiving $ 650 , 000 for a burger purchase he didn 't even make ! I can almost hear his disdain now : " I 'm not taking this $ 650 , 000 prize that my dad purchased for $ 4 . 48 . If your greedy multi - billion dollar corporation won 't pay me a full million George Washington 's … I 'm not interested ! " While AJ was in his righteous indignation toward McDonald 's , I asked him this : why are you mad a McDonald 's for giving away $ 1 , 000 , 000 ? They aren 't the ones taking out $ 400 , 000 , and whether or not you receive the full million , it cost them the full million bucks to do the give - a - way ! He pondered that for a moment . I wonder how many other people feel the same way AJ does about McDonald 's $ 1 , 000 , 000 prize ? I bet there are quite a few and I think the reason is simple : we are becoming a thankless culture of entitlement . And when I take an honest look at my life , I can see areas where the culture of thanklessness has crept into my life , too . AJ pondered the little question I asked him then he laughed and said , " That 's a good point . They are still giving me $ 650 , 000 for the five bucks I paid for a burger . " Of which I quickly reminded him that he didn 't even pay the $ 5 - truly his would have been a free $ 650 , 000 prize ! Sounds silly doesn 't it ? I mean , can you imagine actually becoming upset at a fast food joint for only giving you $ 650 , 000 for eating at their restaurant ? What obligation do they have to give you anything at all ? What duty of theirs is it to offer any kind of prize , let alone a million dollar jackpot that you do nothing to earn . In fact , like all games of this nature in the U . S . , you don 't even have to pay to participate - you can write - in to receive game pieces in the mail , and a chance to win prizes for the cost of a postage stamp . This year 's presidential race seems to be focused on our nation 's lack of gratitude and our demand for more . More help . More money . More schooling . More freedom . More opportunity . More tolerance . More government . More … more … more … I 'm reminded of a parable Jesus once told about a servant who had a massive debt . He went to his wealthy master and pleaded for debt forgiveness , acknowledging his deficit and truthfully stating the obvious - he would never live long enough to repay the debt he owed . In pity , the master forgave the debt and sent the servant home . The servant leaves his master 's house and on the way home finds a fellow servant who owes him a couple of bucks . Remember , he had just been forgiven millions of dollars in debt , and what does he do ? He demands full payment of what 's owed him and threatens legal punishment if the guy doesn 't hand over the dough . Word gets back to the wealthy master and he isn 't pleased at all . He points out the absurdity of the moment - a man forgiven millions won 't forgive a man who owes him $ 5 ! - and then punishes the unforgiving servant as severely as possible . His lack of gratitude became his downfall . Thankfulness is a conscious choice . It 's a choice to respond to circumstances , good and bad , with an attitude of gratitude regardless of what we get out of the deal . My son AJ could have moped at McD 's , sulking about the corporation 's perceived greed and missed out on the fact he just received a free meal , had a chance ( free ! ) to win some cash ( of which he did not ) and then we laughed ourselves silly watching a video on my iPhone . I 'm glad he chose thankfulness . In Colossians 3 : 15 - 17 , in the midst of three major commands for believers , Paul sprinkles in three commands for thankfulness . In 1 Thessalonians 5 : 18 we are told , “… give thanks in all circumstances ; for this is God 's will for you in Christ Jesus . " In Romans 1 : 21 part of the condemnation of sinners is their lack of thankfulness toward God . In 2 Corinthians 9 we are told of the thankfulness of others because of our generosity . Multiple times Jesus prayed for a meal , " giving thanks " for the food . In almost everyone of Paul 's letters he begins with some aspect of thankfulness for the people to whom he is writing . I 've started a new , self - guided journal , that I 'm using for the next 13 - weeks . At the start and end of each day I 'm to list three things for which I 'm thankful . The belief is that starting and ending the day with gratitude is a huge part of finding success in life . It has been an awesome practice , and one that I plan to continue after I 'm done using this journal . Is it a practice you need to start ? The Overboard Life is a thankful life . Ultimately , everything we have is from the Lord , and He has forgiven us the greatest debt of all - the debt of our sins that cost Him , His life . When we complain , whine , scream and throw fits over what we don 't have , we are very much like the servant in the parable Jesus told , and you can 't walk on water living with ingratitude . One of the ships primary engineers , however , believed that a single a gash in the hull was nearly an impossible cause of damage . While one or two of the ships dozen air tanks would fill up , it seemed improbable that enough damage would be done to down the entire boat . In fact , the ship was designed to withstand several ( 3 - 4 , maybe even 6 ! ) of it 's tanks to flood and still float long enough to get survivors safely off . This one engineer , Edward Wilding , believed that it was a series of smaller gashes that led to the Titanic 's rapid plunge into the murky waters of the Atlantic . He was almost laughed out of the discussion , until 77 years later , when divers inspected the ship 's wreckage for the first time . Guess what they discovered ? Six , small gashes across several points in the hull of the Titanic were the reason for its demise . The single gaping hole theory was disproved . I read about this and it made me think about a friend I know who sacrificed his marriage for a year long sexual fling with his secretary . He was a pastor and I heard him share his story one morning with several other men . You see , he didn 't wake up one morning and think , " Today would be a great day to destroy my wife , disappoint my children , lose my job and the work I love and ruin another marriage by having sex with my secretary . " Instead , his affair began three years before he slept with his secretary when he started noticing her outfits ( small gash ) . They began , subtly , to flirt with each other ( small gash ) , and then he found himself looking forward to working together with her on projects ( small gash ) . They had opportunity to travel together a couple of times ( small gash ) , and their conversations became more and more intimate and personal ( small gash ) . They started meeting together secretly for meals ( small gash ) and ultimately made plans for a lunch meeting ( small gash ) that turned into a sexual encounter at a swanky out - of - town hotel ( ship sank ) . As I think about this friend , I wonder how many small gashes I 've allowed into my life ? Our enemy loves the subtle attacks on our hearts and minds , inserting subtle beliefs that slowly leads us downward . You know , ideas like , " it 's ok to look , as longs as you don 't ' act out ' on it " or , " everyone else is doing this , even your church friends , so it can 't really be that bad . " The rapid plunge to the bottom occurs after the small gashes have done their damage .

With one kid . . . . Before bed , every night after playing with Bea1 . . . 1 . I made sure every of those tiny abc , 1 , 2 , 3 pieces ( don 't know how to describe it but it is some cheap toys , some sort of foam cuts ) in their place . . . even the dots of the i and j . 2 . Stacking rings were all neatly stacked . 3 . All books on the shelf . 4 . All colour pencils were gathered , colour pens were capped and kept in a proper place . 5 . All toys put in the big container . The container then pushed to a corner , waiting for the next play time ! With 2 kids . . . 1 . Tiny piece of v was found in the washing machine , w under the bed , p under the tv etc . . . . 2 . I had to look all over the apartment to get the complete set . . poor Bea2 , started on stacking rings a bit late . 3 . Books are everywhere , I mean that includes torn pieces of pages . . . 4 . We had a huge black mark on the sofa , as papa22beas sat on a black colour pen , uncapped ( we agreed that we had made the right choice of getting one of the cheapest sofa , anyway . . . that time also got no money , just spent all in Japan ; ) ) . 5 . Toys strewn all over their play room , containers without the contents serve as ' horses ' that the girls can ride on . . . anyway , it was indeed one of the best decision I 've ever made : turning the guestroom into their playroom . Now , less cursing for tripping over toys on the floor in the living ! Managing their toys is a tiresome task . . . for the kids , it is like a game . The messier the house , the happier they are ! Can 't imagine how it is going to be like when the 3rd one arrives . . . * sigh * Think I 'd seen dragonfruit a long time ago , somewhere but I first tested it about a few months ago . I used to work in a lab , and one day we received boxes of dragonfruits . Words had it that some people from the orchard were interested to do some analytical studies using our equipments but nothing really happened till I left the job . It was nothing really special about it , tested like kiwis ( ok la , I can say a bit better ) and never really thought about buying it . Then , about 2 months ago , the babysitter gave me a piece . The first time I saw it , the flesh was red , but this time it was white . She said the kids were crazy about it . It was not really a surprise as Bea1 loves fruit of any kind , so does Bea2 except that she is a bit choosy as she does not have that many teeth yet , kind of slow in that department . But the soft flesh is just nice to her . So , I thought of buying some and that was when it begun . My kids was just crazy about them . It is now a routine , the first thing when we reach home everyday , one or both of them stands near the fridge . Bea1 normally says " Mama , nak dragonfruit ( and yeah , she pronouce it right ! ) " , Bea2 " Ma , unfut ! " . Bea1 knows where they are located in the supermarket and makes sure that we have enough stock ! They can finish one each in just minutes . The first time I bought it , it cost RM2 . 00 each , then later RM3 . 00 depending on the store . So if RM3 x 30 days = RM90 . . . * gulp * that really is equivalent to their monthly diaper money ! And I 'm talking about one fruit per day . And they must have it everyday now , as a snack before dinner . Luckily , the price goes down to about RM1 . 50 each now . Saw they put a signage " Taiwan Dragonfruit " , so I though it was all imported , that 's why the high price . Thought , the ones planted here are still being studied and not in the market yet . But last night , hubby said they have it in Johor and it is also Pitaya or Thang Loy . Did some reading from the net , it is actually from a cacti family , and said to be loaded with some sort of antioxidants and minerals . Thought , oposted by mama23beas at 9 : 15 AM We are having a seminar on Seismic Hazards in our department for a week . Yesterday , I had a friend came to listen to the talk . In my group of friends , I mean the ones who graduated from U , the most popular topic discussed during our meetings is mainly on how to earn more money , who is doing what job , who drives bigger car or again basically it is about money . So , this topic is also a favourite to my friend . Something he said is really disturbing to me , that I just got to blog it . But before that , let me just explain a bit about my job : I 'm a lecturer , holds a PhD . Not only teaching , I do research . I chose the job ( as I 'm sure I would love doing it forever , or at least till I retire ) , and worked hard to get this job , had a hard times but overall enjoyed every bit of the journey before getting here . It gives me flexible working time , which make it possible for me to be with my kids in between works . And I love my job . But for a lot of people , the salary sucks ! Anyway , over here it is flexible , there are oppurtunities to do consultation job to earn more ( money ) , but off course you have to work more . It is all up to individual . While I sometimes wish to own bigger of everything ( I mean house , cars . . . ) most of the time I 'm just happy as at the moment we have a roof over our heads , and more often than not , more than enough food to eat . So , the conversation started with our jobs . This friend started giving me suggestions to improve ( or basically to earn more money and recognition ) . I was fine with it , inspirational . I did mention that eventhough I 'm ambitious , being a mother and a wife , I really have to think carefully before making any commitments which may take more time away from my family . Here , we got into a little argument . He insisted that as parents , we must show our kids how to be successful , the kids observe what we do and will understand and respect us for good examples that we show them . I agree with that , but insisted that if ' succesful ' here means more time is taken away from them , I may chose not to go aheaposted by mama23beas at 3 : 17 PM This may come a bit late , and I was not sure of announcing it over my blog . But the response is so not encouraging . We thought there should be somebody from the press to cover the story but none came , neither during the official launching nor today as scheduled . Must be some mistake some where . This is the least I can do at the moment , though I 'm aware of the ' unpopularity ' of my blog . The seminar is open to all and one of the main objectives is to educate the public about earthquake and tsunami . It 's been on for 3 days already . Today we had people from Bahagian Keselamatan Negara , Meteorological Dept , Jabatan Bomba dan Penyelamat , Malaysian Centre for Remate Sensing . It is actually targetted to the audience from the public , but like I said the response is really upsetting ! Anyway , for tomorrow ( 23rd June ) : Forum & Dialog with Geoscientist experts Saturday ( 25th June ) : Seminar on Earthquake & Tsunami by a few expertsIn between that , we have presentation of posters and video shows . Come and bring your family . More info from this linkor call 03 - 7967 4203 . Before7 . 15 pm : on Federal Highway , with 31 / 2 and 11 / 2 - year - olds strapped in their carseats at the backseat . Knew I was in deep trouble as I could see cars not moving as far as my eyes could see . Cars moved inch by inch , girls got restless . 7 . 45 pm : we moved only for about 2 km . Bea2 started to scream , Bea1 started wailing . 8 . 00 pm : Bea2 screamed at the top of her lungs , Bea1 insisted to get out of the car . Prayed that everything would be ok , I unbuckled both of them . Bea2 looked for her ultimate comfort , having no choice I lifted my blouse and for the first time in my life : with one hand on the steering , the other arm held Bea2 , I drove while nursing my baby ! Bea1 was calmer and sat in the middle of backseat . 8 . 15 pm : Bea2 turned to playful mood , jumped to front passenger 's seat . Took everything out from the glove compartment to distract her , Bea1 also wanted to join her sister there . One hand on steering , streached the other arm to prevent them from falling . 8 . 30 pm : Yelled at both to stay at the seats , Bea2 cried and asked for nen - nen again . Again , nurse while driving . 8 . 45 pm : Drove passed a long lorry carrying long pieces of steel , parked at the emergency lane and a policeman was there . Knew right away , that was the culprit . Traffic was smooth after that . A bit relieved , and moving towards the toll . But damn , forgot about to reload the Touch n Go . Took cash lane , stopped at the booth and had to pull Bea2 away ( and ' dumped ' her on the front passenger 's seat ) to look for coins . She screamed again ! Pulled over by the road side , buckled both girls in their carseats , a struggle but managed to do it . Drove on amidst their wailing and screams . A drive that normally take us 15 minutes turned to be 2 hours ! After9 . 05 pm : Arrived at papa22beas ' office . Not much word was exchanged but he has one kind of calming effect in his voice and look . Decided to go to nearest place to eat . Ended up in USJ , the first restaurant we saw and it was a steamboat place . 9 . 30 pm : Took the order , Bea1 was all excited to see a pot in front of her , posted by mama23beas at 11 : 24 AM I got the inspiration to blog this while going through my external examiner 's report of my thesis . I received it more than a year ago after completing the thesis and have been flipping the pages many times , but this guy , a Canadian earth scientist was really generous in giving me suggestions / advises / comments which will be helpful in many years to come , I mean if I choose to continue with my research . Each time I read it , I find something new , something to think about and explore . And while alone in this room , I realise that given time and money ( I 'm praying to get good grants ) , there is still a wide world out there waiting for me . I used to think that way when I was young , single and free , but kind of not really think about it after being contented with the marriage and kids . Now that I 'm back in the office again , and I 'm given the oppurtunity to move again , I just can 't wait to get back to what I had left behind for more than a year ago . I 'm in a male - dominated field . Currently there are only 4 female academic staffs in this department from about 25 . Sometimes I wonder , with my role as wife and mother , how do I compete with them ? But wait , I 'm not competing with anybody , I 'm doing this merely because I love it while earning some money . But I 'd love to compare myself with my male counterparts . A geologist needs to travel a lot for fieldtrips , and the job in the field can be tough sometimes . So , here 's some comparisons : 1 . While they can just leave the job of taking care of their kids to the wives , I normally plan to bring along the kids or if it is not possible , try to make it a day trip . Not that I don 't trust papa22beas , but my kids need me all the time ! 2 . When they are sick , they have their wives to " nurse them back to good health " ( I really like the way lrong mentioned it ) , and up on the feet again , they will . What about me . . . . well as far as I 'm concerned , I can 't afford to get sick ! And I 'm grateful for the good health that I have , and that includes all 3 easy pregnancies which allow me to go the field up to duposted by mama23beas at 1 : 43 PM I got this from lazy bone who got it from msau . I 'd seen it once or twice from other blogger ( s ) . I had done the test , and tried to be as honest as possible and I proudly think I have the lowest chance to go to hell , so far . . . hehe ! Your Deadly SinsEnvy : 40 % Gluttony : 20 % Lust : 20 % Pride : 20 % Greed : 0 % Sloth : 0 % Wrath : 0 % Chance You 'll Go to Hell : 14 % You will die in a duel . How Sinful Are You ? While I thought that we are not in a hurry to get an MPV , papa22beas thinks that we are REALLY in a hurry to get rid of the Wira . A few months ago , we are toying with an idea that since we plan to have more addition to the family , we also need a MPV . But we were not in a hurry , and took our time to just at least be aware of what 's new in the market , people 's review and nothing serious like hopping in and out of showrooms etc . Then , this little baby in my tummy makes the ' surprise ' and here we go again talking about MPV . Still , I don 't think we are in a hurry till our Wira does not seem to cooperate well with us . So , for the past 3 days we were in and out of 3 showrooms , and today I went to two . 1 . Hyundei on Saturday - since the need to get rid of Wira , and no urgent need for a MPV , we thought we go for something smaller than MPV but bigger than Wira . We were thinking about the Matrix . But looking at the current rate on the increase number in the family , thought we better seriously go for at least a 6 - seater . 2 . Toyota showroom on Sunday - no except for only ONE sales person there , and she was really busy attending to one costumer . Maybe they have reached their quota since I heard the very overwhelming response . Nevermind , papa22beas was not interested anyway . . . and me after learning about their ridiculous waiting queu , bye bye Innova . . . betul spoil mood , as I 'd been waiting for the launch . 3 . The thought to try out of those used imported cars brought us to one used car dealer on Monday . They have a quite a decent selection of Estima , Gaia , Ipsum , Grandis and a few other models . We were interested on the Gaia , but most that I 'd seen ( except ) for Estima came with only 6 seatbelts . 4 . The good review I read about Nabira brought me to one showroom on Tuesday - I was greeted by the salesman . He was very helpful , and showed no sign of being irritated entertaining my questions for almost an hour . I asked him to evaluate my Wira that I want to trade in . After a few phone calls , he came out with a figure , 31k . He also mentioneposted by mama23beas at 4 : 30 PM 5xmom tagged me with this blog challenge and it is about books . My first thought , it is going to be embarassing as for the past few years my reading material is only confined to geology . As a small kid and later , teeager I used to indulge in reading , it was me and the book and totally unaware of what was going on outside my room , till mom had to bang on my door to get me to eat . I really miss that and I 've been yearning to have more variety of books but after reading whole day at work , I normally don 't have the mood to read at home . Anyway , let 's play then , nothing to show off and I will try my best . 1 ) Total number of books I 've owned : Uncountable , and they are scattered in my room in the office , storeroom at my parents ' place and in my apartment . I got a glimpse of my old books during recent ' balik kampung ' trip , saw a few novels that I rented but never returned . From my childhood I was fascinated with Wuthering Height by Emily Bronte ( it does not matter how much I could comprehend , then ) , series from Hans Christian Anderson especially The Little Match Girl , which still has a certain kind of effect till now . As a teenager , I read novels from Sydney Sheldon and Ian Fleming and a few other . I was a librarian in primary school and spent a lot of time reading , then but I can 't remember most of the books . Since about 13 years ago , I read a lot of journal especially the ones from Nature and Elsevier Science , other than that it is National Geographic . 2 ) The last book I bought : That would be my kids books but I guess it does not count here . It must be some geological books , can 't remember which one but they are somewhere in this office . It is hubby who buys books now , and the latest reading material that he brought home that he loves to share with me are " Kekeramatan 99 wali - wali Allah " and a long article on the Prophet Solomon ( pbuh ) by Harun Yahya . 3 ) The last book I readNon - geological one would be Who moved my cheese - can 't remember the author , and it is somewhere among my geological stuffs . Suggested by a friend who posted by mama23beas at 10 : 54 AM Happiness is . . . . 1 . . . . when the baby kicks when I least expect it . I was being upset over an argument with papa22beas , alone in my room in the office . Suddenly the kicks , strong and disticnt as if she / he was saying " hey , mama . . . don 't be so sad , I 'm here ! About papa , you remember you still have his credit card in your wallet , use it while you can " . . . ok , ok the last part I only imagined it ! . 2 . . . . having Bea1 in my arms during lunchtime . She said she loved me , we read a book and again she willingly let me go again . 3 . . . . seeing that they actually fixed the bay windows in the living and master bedroom in our unit . The new apartment means travelling time to work ( to and fro ) will be reduced from at least 21 / 2 hours to 15 minutes , and with LRT in a walking distance , papa22beas can easily take the train and commuter to his office ; ) . 4 . . . . what is almost the cost of a maternity blouse in Motherclub gave me a nice , doesn 't - look - cheap - at - all blouse , and two maternity pants at the Jusco ( and they are not even on sale . . . wish I 'd known about it when I was carrying the two girls ) . . . and no , I did not use papa22beas credit card for that ! Must ask first , a good wife , I am . 5 . . . . having a plan to bake cookies , using the pre - mix stuffs ( thx to 5xmom ) with Bea1 this weekend . Gee . . . I have a lot of reasons to be happy today , and I 'm not even finished yet . . . Alhamdulillah for all the above and everything ! . BTW , I got tagged by 5xmom . My first thought . . . what do I do ? It is going to be embarassing . . . anyway , give me some time . Will get back on Monday ! James wrote this in one of his entries , regarding his son 's playthings : " Think of all the money we could have saved " And I 'm inspired to blog about how I have saved at least a couple of hundreds ringgits on toys . Hopefully , some stingy or smart ( or just plain poor , like me ) parents will benefit from it . Even before Bea1 turned 3 years old , I was really eager to get her one of those kitchen set . I even imagined a corner in the kitchen where I wanted it to be . She could play there on her own without harrasing me ( I should also mention here that , I 'm a full time working mom without a helper at home , and it is by choice ) . However , the price of one of those things really made me thought a trillionth time would it be worth it for me to part with my money ( as papa22beas had made it clear that he would not have anything to do with it ) . Besides that , when Bea1 turned 3 , Bea2 turned 1 when smaller parts in those kitchen may pose choking hazards for her . I 'd decided to wait for awhile , maybe for a day that I 'm in stress and used that excuse to buy anything that comes to mind . In the meantime , I let Bea1 to just continue ' harassing ' me in the kitchen . Initially , I used to be stressed up with her wanting to touch everything . She uses a stool to reach the counter , and she used to drop something almost every few minutes and asked me to pick it up for her . Papa22 beas just could not get her away from the kitchen . Having no choice , I just let her be there and tried to think of ways to make it pleasant for both of us ( while making sure that the cooking is done ) . She loves onions and garlic , she can just stand there for half an hour to peel , and peel them . I was worried that some juice of the onion might get into her eyes , but on second thought she would learn something from it , but not from those dummies from the kitchen set toys . She loves cutting french beans to small pieces , and tear the cabbage leaves . I remember vividly the excitement on her face the first time I let her play with the squids , and I taught her the different namesposted by mama23beas at 3 : 39 PM Papa22beas and me took 3 days leave on Thursday , Friday and Saturday for some much - awaited programmes : Star Wars ( yup , while the fever is easing down on others , we just got started ) and balik kampung ! Thursday : After a huge fried meehoon breakfast , we drove the kids to the babysitter 's . Got our tickets , managed to browse the shopping mall for maternity wears and watched the 12 . 00 pm show . It was great , but I could not help it , I just giggled at the sight of the mask being fixed on Darth Vader 's face . And so , that 's how it happened , I thought ! Had a late lunch , did a bit of shopping . 5 . 00 pm off to balik kampung . The kids behaved well in their carseats , but was eager to arrive . Arrived at 11 . 00 pm . Kids got excited and only went to bed at 2 am . Friday : Kids played with their cousins , happy with new environment . As usual , balik kampung means a lot of chat with mom and sisters , and off course indulge in mom 's cooking . Saturday : Afternoon , brought the kids to Tok Bali . . . Bea1 was so excited with the beach but we decided not to touch the water . For the first time Bea1 was interested with the seashells and collected some . Bought a lot of yummy otak - otak , or Kelantanese call it ' sata ' . Went to my cousin 's place , she just gave birth to a baby boy . Was dissapointed to know that she had given up breastfeeding ! 11 pm off to KL , reached home at 5 . 30 am . Sunday : Got to catch up on sleep . Had a simple brunch , and off we went to Alamanda , let the kids play at the playground and had our dinner there . Glad that everything went well , except for the kids had a bit of running nose . . . maybe being too long in the aircond . in the car .

To say Nicole Torres is having a hard time sleeping would be putting it lightly . After months of wide - awake late nights , the Puerto Rican beauty is finally at her wits ' end . That is until she stumbles over a little article on the . . . FULL DESCRIPTION | READ EXCERPT To say Nicole Torres is having a hard time sleeping would be putting it lightly . After months of wide - awake late nights , the Puerto Rican beauty is finally at her wits ' end . That is until she stumbles over a little article on the Internet on how the best cure for insomnia is sex . So what 's a sleep - and penis - deprived girl to do ? Run straight into the arms of the man who broke her heart a few months ago . She needs his parts , not his promises . Men don 't get more jaded than prize fighter Cyrus Gallagher . After winning a few matches and making a little money , he 's sure he 's heard every hard luck story in the book from people looking for a handout . But a favor for sex , well that 's a new one . If the request had come from anyone else he wouldn 't have believed it , but Nicole isn 't just anyone . She 's the one that got away . The pungent smell of blood and sweat hit Nicole Torres like a swift right hook the second she entered Gloves Off . It didn 't help that there was about a twenty - degree difference between the temperatures in the boxing club and outside , which made the smell more prominent . Champ , the owner , was old - school when it came to his thermostat . He believed heat kept the boxers lean and mean , and no one dared to contradict him . There were few things in life worth dying for , and the temperature in the gym was not one of them . Nicole scrunched up her nose as she looked around , trying her best not to breathe in too deeply . It had been a while since she 'd been inside Gloves Off . It was going to take her a bit to get used to it again . Not that she planned on being there long . Hell , she shouldn 't be there at all . She was out of her mind to step one foot inside the building , but lack of sleep could do that to a person , which was her problem in the first place . Nicole sighed at the predicament she was in . She was damned if she did and damned if she didn 't . So she might as well get the asking over with . With a fake smile in place , she went in search of a familiar face in a sea of unfamiliar . There had been a time when Nicole was a regular visitor at the boxing club , but all that changed when she 'd stopped seeing Cyrus Gallagher . Once the former high school sweethearts called it quits , there hadn 't been a reason for her to drop by every day like she used to . Sure , she 'd made friends with the trainers and fellow boxers , but this was Cy 's place , and being around him when they weren 't together would have been as awkward as it would have been painful . For her at least . Maybe it was a girl thing . Or a first love thing . But whatever it was , for Nicole , she couldn 't just let bygones be bygones . She was in love with him still , which made him the one person she trusted to help her with her little problem . As she walked around the gym , she noticed the changes that had taken place since she 'd last been in . The only thing about the place that was the same was the smell . Everything else had been remodeled and replaced , including the crowd . Even though it was almost closing time , there was still a handful of folks mingling about . They weren 't people she recognized from the neighborhood , which made sense considering the high - class vehicles she 'd parked her hoopty next to in the parking lot . The change was so vast it left her speechless . For the first time since entering the gym , Nicole smiled sincerely . If there was one person she missed almost as much as she had Cyrus , it was the battered old boxer who owned the gym . Turning around , she looked at the African American man who was standing next to three teenage boys and fought back a squeal of joy . Varnell " The Champ " Johnson was hands down one of the homeliest men Nicole had ever known , but also one of the kindest . Just seeing him again lifted her spirits to a degree they hadn 't been in a long , long time . " Hey , Champ . " " With pleasure . " For Nicole , stepping into the solid man 's arms was like coming home . Closing her eyes , she inhaled the familiar scent of Old Spice and cheap cigars and let the tension she 'd been carrying slip away . It took everything inside her not to settle for the long haul into his much - needed embrace . She gave one last squeeze , centered herself , then stepped back and let go . " How are you ? " To the amusement of his audience , he held up his fists and shadowboxed with the skill and speed of a man half his age . " Still ducking and dodging . You know me . " Standing upright again , he hooked his arm around her shoulder and led her a short distance away . " How about you , baby girl ? " he asked , pulling back so they were standing face - to - face . " You holding up okay ? " " I am . " For the first time since her mother passed a few months before , Nicole was finally coming to grips with life again . She had survived losing her mother and gaining the guardianship of her twin brothers better than she thought she would have . Things weren 't great , but they were good . " I 'm holding up fine . " Champ laughed . " That 's what I like to hear . You should bring ' em here . We 'll put some of that untapped energy to good use . Boxing is good for boys . Gives ' em focus . Teaches ' em respect . Builds their esteem . " " I do . " He beamed with pride . " Cy was a little hellion back in the day , and look at him now . Turned into a fine man . Good head on his shoulders . All the new stuff is all his doing , you know ? I didn 't really think it would work out , but I 'd be damned if he didn 't show me . " " No . " The old man smiled so hard his face almost disappeared into his sea of wrinkles . " He 's teaching one of those new age fitness Boxercise classes . Can you believe it ? Wall Street types paying money to have him yell at them and throw fake punches ? Makes no sense to me , but folks pay up , so whatcha gonna do ? " The idea of Cyrus being put in charge of the very people he despised was highly amusing . And poetic . Five years ago , these types - - these suburbia - living , New York - commuting types - - wouldn 't have offered a stale bottle of Bling water if Cyrus were on fire . After winning a few pay - per - view matches , he 'd gained some status , in his neighborhood and theirs apparently . Who wouldn 't want to take a class from a middleweight champ whose pictures had actually graced a billboard in Times Square ? " That 's about right . " He cackled . " Go on and head back there . His class is held in the old weight room . You remember the one , right ? " The idea of her mischievous but lovable brothers going a few rounds made her grin . " I will , " she promised , looking at Champ again . " They 'll love that . " " Okay . Que Dios te bendiga . " She said her good - bye in Spanish as she always did . Growing up Puerto Rican , she spoke and thought in both languages , which she knew could sometimes make talking to her a bit confusing . But people like Champ , who knew her well , were used to her bilingual nature . " Bye , baby doll , " he tossed over his shoulder as he made his way back to his charges . He left Nicole to find her own way , which wasn 't difficult . She knew the gym like the back of her hand . Or the old gym , anyway . Things had definitely changed for the better , yet it still managed to keep a bit of the old - school charm she 'd fallen in love with years ago . She stopped on her way to the weight room to check her appearance . It had taken her longer than it should have to ready herself . There were so many dos and don ' ts . She didn 't want to look like she was trying too hard to impress him , yet at the same time she wanted to look good . She was blessed with clear , dark brown skin - - so dark that she often was mistaken for an African American , despite the fact she was full Puerto Rican . With her skin tone being what it was she didn 't have to wear a lot of makeup . Just a little black liner to bring out her eyes , and lip gloss with a hint of color to accentuate her naturally full lips . Nicole was a hottie if she had to say so herself , but it was going to take more than good looks to sway her ex in her favor . With that in mind , Nicole gave herself an encouraging smile before making her way down the hall to the weight room . The glass walls made it easy to find and spot a shirtless Cyrus hard at work cleaning up . Silently she made her way to the open door and a few steps past the entryway , but then paused . He had his back to her and appeared unaware she was there . She knew the polite thing to do would be to let him know of her presence , but she couldn 't resist the opportunity to drink in the sight of him , if only for a few seconds more . Although she 'd seen him around since their breakup , she hadn 't seen him like this . He 'd bulked up some since she 'd last had the pleasure of seeing him undressed , not that he needed to . He 'd already been built like an Adonis , but then again she was biased . There was a tattoo across his upper back that was new . A flowing banner with the words " Luck of the Irish " tatted in a fancy font . The ink made her smile . Cyrus was as proud of his Irish heritage as she was of being Puerto Rican , and he enjoyed letting the world know where his ancestors hailed from . Not that anyone who looked at the tall , pale - skinned man wouldn 't have been a little aware to begin with . If the freckles on his shoulders , back , and arms didn 't give it away , then his dark auburn hair and green eyes would have been a bit of a hint . Combine that with the large clover tattoo on his arm and bam , it was a dead giveaway . But then again , if someone was looking at Cyrus , it wasn 't because they were trying to decode his DNA . They 'd be looking because the man was absolutely gorgeous . It wasn 't fair to lesser men for him to be so damn fine . Hell , even his chosen profession should have made his face less than attractive , but instead boxing gave him a rugged warrior appearance that suited his muscular body to a T . He looked dangerous thanks to a scar that zigzagged through his left eyebrow and a nose broken and reset one too many times . Rather than taking away from his appeal , it only added to it . When women looked at him , they didn 't see a pretty boy . They saw a man . Someone who could protect and defend . Someone who could toss your skirt up and fuck you over a table in front of your man and dare him with a look to say anything . With all that had gone down between them , good and bad , she still couldn 't resist watching him move . For someone who could knock a man out in a three - minute round , he was surprisingly graceful . Even now , as he did something as simple as wiping down the punching bags , she couldn 't help but stare . His fluid motions showcased the muscles in his back and arms , and when he bent over , his shorts stretched over his firm ass , causing her to bite her bottom lip in order to keep her moan of approval at bay . Watching him work was like viewing her own version of porn . Ay Dios mio , the man was beautiful . Lord , she 'd missed the feel of his body on hers . Missed him , period . And if he agreed to do what she wanted , she 'd have to eventually get used to him not being around all over again . But she wouldn 't stop loving him . That she would do until the day she died . Losing her nerve , Nicole began to back out of the room , trying to be as quiet as when she 'd entered , but before she could slip into the hallway , Cyrus turned around to throw the towel into the laundry bin and caught sight of her . He stopped midmotion and lowered his arm . Silently he stared at her , his face blank , his body stiff . There was nothing welcoming about his demeanor whatsoever , which let her know it was going to be up to her to make the first move . " Good to hear . " She waited for him to do the polite thing and inquire after her , but he didn 't . Feeling more unsure of herself by the second , Nicole walked over to one of the red boxing bags and toyed with the seam on one side . " The place looks great , " she said after a while . " I hardly recognize it . " " That 's great . " She looked around the punching bag and smiled shyly . " For you and Champ . I think it 's all really . . . great . " " You said that already . " Cyrus took the towel off his shoulder and tossed it in the bin . " And if that 's all you came here to say , then you can leave . " Irritated by his ready dismal , she came from behind the bag . So much for the honeymoon stage of becoming reacquainted . " Charming as ever , I see . " " That 's me . Prince Charming . " Cyrus picked up the bin and moved it outside into the hall . When he was done he came back inside and faced her again . " So ready to spit it out now , or do you still want to dance ? " " So do people . I 'm looking around and " - - Nicole gestured to the new , improved gym - - " I see you have . You 're doing good for yourself . " " Ever since I won those fights , everybody and their mama have been hitting me up for this and asking me to help them pay for that . Family members who wouldn 't even take me in when my parents were fighting have actually come begging . " He gazed at her with undisguised contempt . " You next , Nicole ? " Ay Dios mio . Apparently he could sink that low . Nicole jerked back as if she 'd been jabbed . There had been a lot of bad blood between them , but the fact he could even think that of her hurt more than the telling . " No , I don 't need or want your money , cabron . " And right now she didn 't even want his help anymore . Furious , she spun on her heels to leave , but rage overcame her , forcing her to turn back around and confront him with a truth he apparently forgot . " For the record , " she said , storming up to him . " My mom and I took you in plenty of times when your dad was off the wagon , and if you recall correctly , it was I who doctored up your cuts and bruises and held your hand through the night when you were in too much pain to sleep . " " I 'm sorry . " He looked a bit uncomfortable , like a man obviously unused to apologizing or admitting fault . " That was uncalled for . Your mom was very good to me . You were very good to me . So if you do nee - - " Nicole shook her head and halted his words . " I don 't need money , thank you , " she said in a haughty tone . Her mother 's death had been mercifully quick but sadly unexpected . She 'd died two months after being diagnosed with lung cancer , but she continued to take care of her children after her death , leaving them with a large insurance policy that had enabled Nicole to pay off their brownstone , and put money away for college for the boys . There had even been enough left over for Nicole to take a sabbatical from work so she could help the boys cope with things without having to tighten her purse strings . " The boys and I are fine . " That was because she hadn 't quite figured out how to , but it wasn 't going to get any easier if she kept avoiding the confrontation . With a heavy sigh , Nicole let go of her fears and just came out with it . " I 'm tired , Cy . So tired . I need some sleep . " " The pills they gave me made me gain a crapload of weight . " Nicole turned around so he could see her bubble butt . " Look at it . Mi culo is getting ginormous . I had to go up a pants size . " " Umm , thank you . " She tried not to be too pleased by his lackluster compliment , but it delighted her all the same . A bit flustered , she tried her best to get back to the subject at hand . " But on top of the weight gain I was tired all the time , having wacky dreams , sleep eating . It was just horrible . In the long run , the juice wasn 't worth the squeeze , you know . So I stopped taking them , but now I can 't sleep again . " " I have . I went to a holistic healer . I 've even tried yoga and meditating . Nothing worked . After months of no relief I started searching online and found a bunch of articles that made a pretty radical suggestion . A suggestion I wasn 't opposed to , just not sure of . So I printed them out and took them to my physician . She thinks it 's worth a shot . And that 's why I 'm here to see you . "

We 've heard from Virginia and how she felt abouther trip to Pakistan and the wonderful family she met there . Now hear what Sofia has to say about her experience . June 02 , 2016 / Dear Diary , It has been a great week . . . starting with a baby last Sunday and leisurely postnatal care since . Breastfeeding is going well , the baby is gaining weight and I 've had the privilege to witness at close hand a family integrate and welcome a new family member . Last Sunday morning the call came in … not that I was aware of it as the night before I had gone to the movies with the expectant couple and had turned my phone volume down to avoid interruptions , and completely forgotten to turn the volume back up . On - call midwife no - no of the biggest order … thankfully with no serious consequences , but I have learned my lesson , and it won 't be happening again . Neither the text saying things had started , but nobody was needed yet , nor the four phone calls that followed over the next couple of hours woke me on that glorious Sunday morning : one call from the doula ; two from the dad ; and one from the mother … Instead it was the knock on my front door from Kabir ( the dad ) that woke me up . I answered the door , half asleep , and he told me that things had started but they weren 't in a hurry … come over but take my time . I was in the midst of my morning routine , wondering why Kabir had come over and not simply called , and somewhere between making coffee and getting in the shower I checked my phone to discover the text and four missed calls … and only then did I realise that my volume was off , and had been since the night before … Wow ! . . . I felt terrible . Really bad that they had been calling me and must have been worried as to why I hadn 't picked up . Really bad that Kabir had , had to come to me and knock on my door . Really bad that I hadn 't realised when he had come over , and hadn 't apologized immediately . I was just out of the shower and about to drink my coffee when the doula called and said the waters had just released … no time for coffee … I jumped on my scooter and was at their house in a few minutes … luckily I 'm living just down the road . I parked my bike still feeling bad … took a few deeps breatVirginia Howes / Day 14 - Homecoming And so at the end of the day , 14 days after I arrived scared , worried , and wondering what the near future had to offer , my time here in Karachi , Pakistan has drawn to a close . I am awaiting my transport to the airport ; the much loved and trusted Muna will take me back to the place where we first met . It 's late at night and Sofia is asleep with her two babies . The beautiful new baby girl is to be named Lily May . " She didn 't stop until she proved all of those , and more , that she could and would have her right of passage . " Am I please to be going home ? Oh yes , for sure I am excited and relieved that the day has finally come . I can 't wait to snuggle up with Sean and see the rest of my family . But am I glad I came , did I have a good time ? Yes , I did . Am I upset to be leaving this wonderful family , this amazing contradictory country ? Yes , I truly am . I met a wonderful , strong woman and her mother who showed me how hospitality should be done . I have met so many strong women when it comes to childbirth over my years as a midwife , so many who have fought for what they want in a country where normality and midwifery is the norm . But when you have a whole family , a whole society , and what appears to be a whole medical establishment to fight , most women would have given up . Not Sofia , the pocket rocket of just 21years old . She didn 't stop until she proved all of those , and more , that she could and would have her right of passage . She took Lily May outside today to show her off to the staff and I could feel the pride in what she had achieved just oozing out of her . With her newborn baby girl in the sling and little Ebo on her hip I knew the love this little family had would see them through life 's tough times . Dr Azra came by today . She had said she would help Sofia with obtaining a birth certificate , and once more we discussed what is so wrong with childbirth practices . She asked if I would come and speak to the teachers who teach the local lay midwives . Of course I would love to do somethApril 30 , 2016 / Day 13 - Showtime Last night we wound down with a very relaxed but also exciting evening of Henna tattooing . Sofia had said we need to be home by 6 . 30 because someone was coming to paint her belly . In the morning we had been ' ooing and arhing ' over all wonders of artistic designs on pregnant bellies which Sofia found on the internet . I was expecting a grand artist to be coming , so was somewhat surprised therefore to find that it was Rumis ' daughter Fatima who was going to be our artist of the evening . Fatima is just 12 years old ! I was doubtful that some of the intricate art from the pictures we saw could be replicated by such a young child . However , I have been delightfully surprised by many things about my time in Karachi and Fatima 's artistic skills were just one more such occasion because , boy oh boy , is she clever . The beautiful floral and bird design flowed up around Sofia 's pregnant bump all the way to between her breasts . Sofia was like an excited puppy dancing around showing off her new funky baby belly . We took lots of pictures and no woman could have appeared prouder of herself than this happy mum to be . And so another day in this strange and interesting country was falling to a close . I felt tired and decided to take to my bed and try to sleep a lot earlier than usual . So 10 . 30pm saw me winding down and almost ready to fall asleep . However , day 12 was determined to end on a bang and day 13 to be the ultimate day , the climax , the reason for me being here . The baby was on its way ! The long awaited knock came at approx . 11pm . I jumped up out of bed in a nanosecond and opened the door to find Sofia in a state of nervous excitement , " I am having contractions , it 's just started what do I do ? " she asked . I lead her to the sofa and asked her to remember all the talking we had done . I reminded her that this could all stop , that it was early yet and could potentially go on for quite some time . Eventually , after lots of reassurance , I went back to bed , only for her to knock just 40 minutes lateApril 29 , 2016 / Day 12 - Reflections and Relaxation I really had high hopes that after the lovely relaxing and laughter - filled day yesterday , that last night I would get a knock on my door . However , I have to be patient as I always tell women and accept that baby will come when she is ready . Sofia did tell me this morning that she had been aware of cramps during the night , so at least we are getting some positive signs . Last night I finally finished , not only 2 seasons of Game of Thrones but also all my caramel eggs have now been , most enjoyably , eaten ! So now both my milestones have come and gone . I am just praying now to my birth angels that the next milestone , my birthday , will not come and go with me still here and still waiting , because by then I am sure it will not be quite so patiently . The good news , however , is that when I told Sofia that my night watch ING ( bit of a pun there on night watch MEN , for those readers who are Game of Throne fans ) had come to an end , she instantly made a phone call and , hey presto , within 15 minutes ' series 3 , 4 and 5 were delivered to the door . There are some benefits in countries where the rules are not always the priority . Talking to the maids about their experiences of childbirth is both amazing and shocking . Rumi has had 4 children , 2 of which she had at home and 2 in a village hospital . The two she had at home sound as if they were easy , straightforward and , most interestingly , the things she says and advice she gives to Sofia are spot on . Like walking and squatting cuts the pain and how hot water makes the milk flow from the breast and the baby flow from the body . She talks about those births with so much instinct and control . She describes how she knows that when the pains come close together the baby is close as well and that she removes her knickers just at the correct time . " Woman 's rights in childbirth just did not exist , let alone basic compassion or respect in many places . " However , as soon as she talks about her hospital births ( don 't read " hospital " as anythingApril 28 , 2016 / Day 11 - Due DateIt 's is Sofia 's due date today so the day called for keeping busy with a fun activity . After our impromptu visit yesterday to the pretty grotty local beach , the plan was a trip to a " lovely beach " far different apparently from what I had already seen , and about an hour 's drive away . The journey to this much further afield beach was worth the trip alone for the sights on the way , for if I thought I had seen Karachi at its worst in regards to dirt , pollution , rubbish poverty and grey , grey , grey , then I had a rude awakening . It truly was unexplainable but I will try . First a stop at the baker shop with sausage and chicken pastries - to supplement the picnic Muna had already prepared . Knowing Muna the picnic would consist of a tasty variety of foods fit for a king that she had " just thrown together " , so any purchased supplements , however delicious , I am sure would not be a patch on what we already have . While Muna shopped and the rest of us waited outside , we discussed the armed guard outside the fruit shop opposite , and I had them all in stitches with laughter as I did a John Wayne impression of " your money or your apples " . As we left the criss - cross , busy streets and huge billboards of Karachi behind we started to drive along a straight , quieter road with low concrete buildings either side . With no greenery or other scenic colours , it reminded me of driving through a cement works . Further driving and we were going through shanty towns of indescribable filth and decay . I took so many pictures from the windows of the car because the written description could never suffice . Soon the grey gave way to vibrant colours as the roads began to be filled once more with huge colourful trucks . Muna explained that there is big business in customising the trucks , and we did see some pretty impressive decorations to the huge vehicles all around us . The vast , busy road we were on was a dual carriageway , and on the central reservation I noticed that someone had attempted to bring colour the laApril 27 , 2016 / Ladies … . please be seated . Or why a birth stool can make a difference for women and midwives during labour and birth I recently supported a woman who chose to give birth to her first baby at her local hospital . When I got to her home , Jessica was in advanced labour choosing to remain in the bathroom and hopping on and off the toilet to help with the intensity of contractions . By the time we arrived at the labour ward and were shown into a room she had a strong urge to push . Brilliant ! Jessica walked around swaying her hips , sat on the loo in the en - suite bathroom , leant against her husband and the walls for support . Mother and baby were well and the expectation was for birth in due course . Time passed and Jessica was now obviously in active 2nd stage of labour . She pushed hard . Baby was well . Mother was well . Time passed . Jessica continued to push and there were encouraging signs that birth would likely happen soon . I was mindful of the NHS midwife feeling tense ; the ticking clock , ' guidelines ' etcThe curtains which formed a screen over the door twitched , the door opened and closed and I heard murmurings of voices . ' I 'm so tired , I just need to lie down ! ' Jessica exclaimed . How many times as midwives have we heard women say this during labour ? I certainly did when I had my babies . It 's normal , it 's vocalising to those around how you feel , that you 'd like it to stop soon please and welcome your baby . I reassured and encouraged her to carry on , remain upright and not get onto the bed which loomed larger than life in the centre of the room . ' Have you got a birth stool ? ' I asked the NHS midwife . ' No ' she replied . I immediately left the room , returning within 5 minutes with a birth stool I had in my car . When I re - entered the room I have to say I was flabbergasted ! Jessica was on her back on the bed with her legs in stirrups in a position called lithotomy ( sometimes called a stranded beetle position ) . And she had a CTG ( fetal monitor ) on . I gently and quietly encouraged her to get off the bed andApril 26 , 2016 / Day 10 - Sightseeing After a slow start , today turned out to be quite an adventure . Drugs are cheap and everything is apparently available to purchase here , so Muna took me downtown to see if I could replenish my supply at a fraction of the cost from prices in the UK … a very cute helpful little Pakistani pharmacist is looking into my order and will come back to us tomorrow . The journey there saw the usual parade of beggars but also a few transvestites , who are generally ostracised by their family and society , so need to beg for a living . We drove down tiny streets the type of which I hadn 't previously seen and it appeared that the shops were all spilling into their neighbours . The types of shops ranged from those selling fruit and groceries to fixing bags and selling bicycles . There were elderly and deformed old men and women sitting at the curb side and a poor dog with a shocking , festering wound on it is haunches the size of a tea plate just walking along the road . I wonder if you eventually become immune to such atrocities ? The search for Entonox continued , but finally we appeared to have a breakthrough with a company that will rent us a cylinder , although they needed us to to meet the agent at a hospital on the other side of town . They were also renting us the equipment to use the Entonox and I was delighted that it was an identical set to that which I have in the UK , only brand spanking new ! I was happy . So now if Sofia needs pain relief in labour it will not be a matter of giving up her dream of a home birth and instead transfer to hospital to get it . " Huge and vast with the dark , dirty sea on one side and the concrete Jungle of crumbling buildings of Karachi on the other . " On the journey home Muna decided that a trip to the beach was on the cards . As I have said before Munas ' dedication to Karachi is commendable and she appears to overlook the horrors I see on a daily basis and instead points out " beautiful this " and " beautiful that " . I have yet to see anything that I could in all honesKate Shaw / Day 9 - Bling Corruption is big business in Pakistan , and Karachi sees its fair share of it . It was one of the first things Muna had told me about when she collected me from the airport . Corruption and the complete lack of accountability . Earlier in the week I went to the cinema . The trip was more for the experience rather than the film itself . I wanted to experience normal life for the Pakistani people who could afford such luxuries . The auditorium was much the same as any other worldwide and the nachos just as delicious , but as I sat there munching away , waiting for the film to start , to my horror the lights suddenly came up bright , the loud booming sounds of what obviously was the national anthem started and everyone commenced to stand . I was embarrassed and every part of my anarchistic personality ( OK , not quite as bad as that ) wanted to stay seated , however I did not want to draw even more attention to myself . I was already the only white , western , lone female in the auditorium , so nachos in hand and frantically wiping my chin of cheese sauce , I stood and listened to the stomping sounds of the song which , although I knew the ethos , I certainly could not understand the language . " Sofia had already told me that the best way to earn a living from corruption here in Karachi is to join the police force . " At its conclusion I quickly sunk back in to my big comfy seat , relieved when the lights dimmed and I once more had my anonymity . I presumed the film would now begin , but no , first we had the adverts and I was surprised and pleased to see an advert calling for Pakistanis to reject corruption . I supposed that the Government funded such an advert but I also had a sneaky suspicion that within that same Government , corruption was rife . Sofia had already told me that the best way to earn a living from corruption here Karachi is to join the police force , where you will be paid such a poor salary ( hardly enough to feed your family ) that you have to make it up to a living wage somehow . What better way to supplement April 25 , 2016 / Day 8 - Home Comforts Last night after my usual indulgence of a caramel egg accompanied by an episode of Game of Thrones I settled down to sleep . I had been asleep a while , but was aware that the night was early when I heard Sofia 's small 2 - year - old boy crying loudly . The crying went on for some time and I could also hear Sofia 's raised voice and that of her estranged husband Azaan . I learnt this morning that Sofia , at the end of her tether with her 39 plus weeks of pregnancy , an unwell child and a horrible cold , had an understandable meltdown when Ebo was restless and unwilling to sleep . " She was fast becoming a much loved surrogate daughter and I wanted her to feel better . " In desperation she had called Muna to come for support . Azaan had seen Muna arrive at the house from his location , visiting his mother upstairs . He had come into the house and taken the little boy from Sofia in a supposed answer to her stress , which upset Sofia even more and she had spent a first ever enforced night away from little Ebo . She looked tired , drained and sad , and instinctively I put my arms around her and held her close . She was fast becoming a much loved surrogate daughter and I wanted her to feel better . As an outsider I could see the dynamics of everyone 's feelings and points of view when personal issue came up for discussion . Of course my 100 % sympathies lie with Sofia , but when a young couple meet in their teens , parenthood is also hard on a young man of 21 . " Often the beautiful melodious sounds of him singing his favourite Adele songs can be heard echoing through the building . " So today Sofia understandably wanted to spend as little time as possible in the house where Azaan works and her in laws live in close proximity . As well as being a film producer , Azaan is an accomplished musician and singer , and often the beautiful melodious sounds of him singing his favourite Adele songs can be heard echoing through the building . Add problems of love to the situation and I could empathise with Sofia 's desire to esApril 24 , 2016 / Day 7 - Literary Festival Today I finally woke at a reasonable time and found at 09 . 30 Muna was already here and wondering if I would like to accompany her to the Karachi literary festival , where she excitedly said I would meet lots of feminist and free thinking woman like me ! It was being held in a Hotel and we had to go through the usual security checks . There are armed guards at every establishment , but anywhere where groups gather they also search your bags and you go through metal detectors . This event also had armed guards looking down on us from the hotel rooftops . Far from making me feel safe it hits home about the daily dangers . Once inside however it was awash with exhibition stands and stage / seating areas inside and out . I was astounded at the amount of presentations going on . There were many scholars running sessions and talking about all sorts of issues , but the one that caught our attention was " laughter , the best medicine " . The speakers were 2 Pakistani men and one Indian , who were stand - up comics . They were here to discuss the place of satire comedy in the life of a Muslim . I have never seen such a packed audience . The auditorium had a seating capacity of more than some west end shows , and still people packed in to stand . The place was in uproar with laughter and I was frustrated that I didn 't understand more . One joke went along this line : " I was robbed a while ago in Karachi . I was sitting in my car when a man approached and held his gun to the window , he was saying " mobile phone arsehole mobile phone arsehole " , but quite honestly I didn 't know if he wanted to rob me or have a relationship with me . " This was from a comedian named Saad Haroon . He was asked by the audience how he knew he was successful and he answered that the death threats on YouTube gave him great confidence about that ! You must watch this parody to Pretty Woman he performed called " Burka woman " ; he certainly had me laughing ! And so it was home once again through the dirty , decaying mess that is Karachi . WeApril 23 , 2016 / Day 6 - Cultural Differences Late last night , when I was just about ready to check into my bed , Muna arrived ! The culture here that the day starts late and ends even later . While that fits in with my current jet lag , it 's hard to get my head around . I still feel terribly guilty getting up at 10 . 30 when I hardly ever sleep in beyond 8am at home . Can you believe Azaan , Sofia 's estranged husband has just left to go to the dentist and it 9pm ? ! So , back to Muna 's late arrival , because I just have to mention that once again she arrived with food ! This time it was desert . Typical / local delicious sweets made from carrots , honey and nuts - a strange combination but no more so I suppose than our carrot cake . Sofia was in a restless mood and I did allow myself to hope it was the sign of something to come , but it was her 2 - year - old Ebo who put paid to that by being unwell and keeping her up all night . Suppress that oxytocin and call in adrenaline ! I managed to finish the first series of Game Of Thrones by 2am and then had a bumpy night of sleep awake cycles of 2 hours until 10 . 30 . The culture of servants continues to amaze me . I have learnt in some households it very formal , and the lady of the house would be addressed as Ma ' am , however in Sofia and Muna 's house they appear to be more like family and have been employed for many years . Many of them live in and have their own quarters at the back of the house in the basement , although I have yet to see it . Sunia is going home tomorrow as it 's her day off . At seventeen years old , she must go to take her salary home to her family . On Fridays the servants cook food enough for 80 people and take it to the local homeless shelter . I only learnt that last night and , if I am still here next week , that 's something I would like to see ! Today Muna took us to the sea front ( not the beach ) where locals fish for crabs . We walked along the sea wall watching the fishermen , all the time being aware of the strange looks we were getting . With no woman other than us around , the April 22 , 2016 / Day 5 - Paperwork , Preparations and a Pool " Please " I woke up saying " please let 's have a relaxed day of no restaurants , lunches , trips out , family visits , discussions or debates " . I am exhausted with the loveliness of it all . The best thing is I slept quite well so I am feeling much better than the horrible way I felt yesterday . It appears that IMUK and my lovely sister midwife Jacqui have the uncanny knack of asking me to prepare a newsletter for IMUK just as I am about to go on holiday , or in this case , abroad to work , where the internet is not perfect and picking up the phone to discuss things is impossible . So , yet again , an email arrived with my instructions for the newsletter the night before I came away . I have been trying my best to get it done within my very busy schedule of educating my hosts while they socially overwhelm and pamper me . So anyway , last night I suggested we have a restful at home day today so I can finish the IMUK newsletter and get up to date with emails and communication with family . Following my typical breakfast served on a tray at around 11am ( jet lag still keeps me awake till around 2am and asleep until 10 . 30 ) I started on my newsletter and emails . Good progress was being made and I could finally see the wood for the trees when Sofia says " Mum is coming over with a friend to meet you Virginia and bringing coffee and muffins . " Oh my sweet tubby tummy ! More food . I was , however , on this occasion the best I could be , and declined the lovely blueberry muffins . Sofia was adopted so is nothing like her mum , Muna who is a wonderful mixture of east meets west ; large , blonde and pink , but wears Pakistani clothes and covers her head . A Dutch woman by birth , she has open eyes to the problems of and in Pakistan , but is also a loyal protector of her adopted country . She constantly points out things of beauty amongst a lot of ugliness . The odd façade , or old historic building amongst a jungle of concrete and filth . She is Muslim , but a fierce supporter of women 's ' rights . OApril 21 , 2016 / We chose to have an independent midwife because my Mum had had very bad experiences giving birth , and was keen for me to have a much easier experience . I heard that having an independent midwife is the best way to do to prepare for a straight - forward birth , as building a trusting relationship and feeling confident and empowered by a midwife allows you to be calm during the birth . Nov 21 , 2016 By way of introduction and background , I am terrified of hospitals ! And most other medical things if I am honest . My husband and I decided to start a family and I just assumed I would have to suck up by insecurities and get through my medical fears to have our family .

Good morning everyone ! Looks like a nice sunny day even though it is supposed to get warmer than it has the last few weeks it is still going to be a beautiful day . John says the crops really need some hotter weather to mature before it freezes so guess I had better wish for a hotter day as well . Think I will be inside most of the day unless I get out to mow later this afternoon . The grass and weeds are so wet early in the morning and don 't dry off until at least noon anyway . Mowing is not my favorite thing to do but John mows now and again when he has time . Mowing the lawn is not a pain but it is mowing all the other areas of the farm I don 't like . It takes 4 hours at least to get it all done and mowing the farm yard is always so dirty too . It always looks so nice when I finish that I try to think of that as the dirt is showering down on me . For you " city " friends the farm yard , with the exception of the lawn around the house , has some grass but it is mostly low growing weeds . The grass and weeds in those areas don 't grow as close together so the dirt in between the plants gets disturbed and comes shooting out the side along with the cut grass / weeds . If there is any wind it blows back in your face - YUCK ! I got so much done yesterday - must have had an energy serge . At least it felt like I got a lot done anyway . I quilted the cat in the center and worked on getting the corners quilted . I really like how this is coming along so far . Using the BSR is getting easier the more I quilt but I still quilt very slow . I quilted the outside motif in orange thread then outlined it in the silk thread . The area between the points and the motif I did the tiny circles with the silk thread . Not sure I am doing them right but they are looking OK . Will be doing the outline and circles on the outside of the orange motifs too but will stop short of the corner a little . I want that last pointy part of the motif to point exactly to the corner so will trim the quilt and make sure it is drawn correctly then quilt that last before I bind it . I stopped quilting early last evening to watch the University of Nebraska girls play their first Volleyball game . It was really exciting to watch them beat Stanford the # 2 ranked team in 3 sets . While I watched the game I worked on sorting my fabrics . I had hauled all the boxes from their shelves and deposited them in the family room . Figured I would get them sorted quickly if I wanted that room to be livable again , plus I would not stop at sorting just a box or two if they are all sitting out on my table and floor . I managed to get several sorted and re - folded but have a couple more to do . I took a photo this morning of what they looked like - should have taken one last evening before I started . There was fabric draped over everything , plus a few other missing things as well - have been looking for that bungee cord ! Anyway it is a good start and will continue to straighten tonight . I am trying to sort out a lot of fabrics that I don 't think I will use and putting them in bags . Will use this fabric to make lap quilts for the various donation projects our guild does and thought this would be a good way to use up the fabric plus practice my machine quilting skills . We go to the State Fair early tomorrow to Posted by When you live in the country away from any close shopping areas you learn to make do with what you have on hand sometimes . ( It is at least an hour drive to any quilt shop and then they don 't carry all the threads that I like . End up going to Grand Island which is an hour and 20 minutes away or to Lincoln which is an hour and 45 minutes away if I need specific thread or fabrics . Needless to say I need to have a bigger shopping list than just thread to travel that far . ) That is the case this time when I looked through my threads to find what I wanted to use to quilt this quilt I am now calling - " Waiting for Halloween " I have read of quilters using silk thread for their machine quilting so am giving it a try . I had the perfect shade of YLI Silk # 100 http : / / www . ylicorp . com / YLIProducts . html thread to match the background behind the applique in my thread stash that I usually use for hand applique . I stipple quilted plus used it to outline the applique and to quilt on the pumpkin , flowers and leaf . I really like how the thread almost disappears into the background but when you look close you can see it . I am using Bottom Line thread from Superior Threads http : / / www . superiorthreads . com / in my bobbin and that is working great too . I am now a convert from using all cotton thread I think . The last few pieces I have quilted using Bottom Line have turned out wonderful and it really is nice that the tension stays so good - the top threads are not pulled to the bottom or the bottom threads being pulled to the top . They stay where they belong so I can change colors of top thread and you would never know it by looking at the back of my quilt . Click on the pictures to get a larger view of what has been quilted so far . This morning right before noon I started quilting on the corner motifs in orange thread . ( Will show a photo of that maybe tomorrow ) I am using 100 % cotton 50 / 3 Mettler thread http : / / www . amefird . com / mettler . htm as I wanted a little thicker thread so it would show up better . I do happen to have some orange silk threadPosted by My sewing room was cleaned up a little this morning so took a photo before it became it 's usual mess . I have a great view out the large windows when I am sitting at my machine and they let in a lot of natural light - we had replaced the old bedroom window with this bow window when we remodeled and I love it . The other half of this room is the office that I share with John . Sometime when that half of the room is clean I will snap a photo of it to show you but right now it is a disaster and I wouldn 't want you to think we are slobs . I have some tall bookshelves for my quilt books and magazines on one side and on the other is the island we took out of the kitchen when we remodeled . It is a great height to use for my cutting board and I also sit my large pressing board on it . Right now there is an ugly piece of fabric laying over the pressing board to protect it from the spray starch I was using . Behind the island is a closet with a bi - fold door . This room was originally my in - laws bedroom and the closet was one of the two they used for their clothes . I use it for sewing stuff but it needs to be cleaned and organized after living here for 3 1 / 2 years . When we moved in I put things where I thought it all should go but by now it all needs organized a little better and some stuff needs to be sorted out and disposed of . I want you to notice the small pin cushion sitting to the right of my machine . A friend made that for me recently and it is really handy in that it is small and I can use it beside my machine or take it to where ever I am working . She purchased a heavy napkin ring and some fabric to cover a filler of wool batting . It doesn 't take up too much room and the napkin ring is metal so has some weight to keep it from tipping over . Yesterday I worked as a " white glover " at the Nebraska State Fair quilt department . I always enjoy the job which really isn 't work at all . There are chairs to sit in but most of the time I find myself walking in the area I am assigned to and looking at the quilts , studying the piecing / applique designs and the quilting on each piece . I did take a lot of photos but they are still on my camera . Maybe I will get to it tomorrow . As " white glovers " we tried to answer visitors questions , most of which were pretty basic and were there to help protect the quilts . Only had one incident where I had to say something and that was when a few teenagers thought they were going to chase each other and run between the rows of quilts by going underneath the quilts - WRONG ! Most of them sheepishly left the quilt area after being told that wasn 't allowed . There were a few vendors ( just general fair vendors - not quilt supply vendors ) around the edge of the quilt display . Our shift didn 't get over until 1 : 30 pm so we were all getting a little hungry and my last station was right in front of a roasted soybean vendor . I would not have bought any except he had samples to taste and after trying several kinds I knew I just had to have some to take home . I bought some cherry coated roasted ones and some lightly salted roasted soybeans . I probably would never had bought the cherry ones if I had not tasted a sample but they are really very good . Now I am resisting the urge to open the packages but I decided I would wait until we had some company . Neither John or I have much will power when it comes to snacks so we would probably finish them off rather quickly . Tuesday I wanted to work on something / anything on my new sewing machine but didn 't have anything recent started or any ideas for something new . Really need to get a new quilt started so I will always have something to sew when the mood strikes . Since I got this machine I have wanted to use it everyday I can but just ran out of things to do . I got out my box of UFOs and pulled out a blockPosted by I just found out that one of my quilts received a 2nd place ribbon and the other two didn 't place . I am surprised about the quilt that did get the ribbon . I had thought about not taking it as I thought it had obvious problems . You never know what competition each quilt has and what the judge is looking for . Now I am anxious to go to the fair and see all the quilts . Five of us will go up on Wed . to work as white glovers in the quilt department . We have been going up for more years than I can remember and everyone is quick to say yes when I ask if they want to do it each year . When you volunteer you get up close to the quilts and can really take a lot of time looking at them , answer questions from people walking through the show and also as quasi quilt police . ( See there really are quilt police ! ) Our job is to keep people from touching the quilts or damaging them in any way . The people wandering through the exhibit range from quilters of all ages to non - quilters that don 't have any idea about the quilting process , judging process or even what is machine quilting or hand quilting . It is so much fun to visit with everyone and try to help them understand if they have questions . This year there are 371 quilts in the exhibit from miniatures to full sized quilts . The quality of the quilts at Nebraska 's state fair is always very good so is a treat to be able to get the chance to white glove . Now for the photo for this blog . This is a clay frog a friend gave me a few years ago . I am a frog collector as well as a quilter and this was perfect - a frog and a quilt together ! It is only about 1 3 / 4 " tall and is so cute . It is meant to hang as an ornament but I have it sitting on a shelf . This photo is quite a bit bigger than the actual frog ! So long for now . . . Lynn Yesterday I worked on a miniature quilt that I can not show you a photo of . Now don 't you just hate that teaser . It is to be sent to a friend and she reads this blog so guess until I get it finished , mailed off and know she has gotten it everyone will just have to wait to see it . We had rain here off and on all day yesterday but it didn 't amount to much - only . 30 " . I had an interesting conversation with a cousin of mine from Florida last weekend . She grew up on a farm in western Nebraska but now lives in a city where she raised her three girls . She commented that her girls would get to laughing at the letters her mother ( their grandmother ) would write about getting rain . They though it was so funny and would laugh and joke about the fact that she always included how much rain they got , down to the hundredths of an inch . She said they would never understand that to a farmer the amount of rain that comes down is very important . Rain equals more profit at harvest if you are a farmer that can irrigate and if you are a farmer that can 't irrigate it comes down to just having any profit at all from a years work . It is the first topic of conversation when ever farmers meet after any rain storm . That being said , we have been wanting a little more rain to keep from running our irrigation wells again this season on the corn . With the price of fuel the costs are enormous . Each well engine burns approximately 3 gallons an hour so over the period of a day it mounts up . Most farmers here have to farm quite a few acres to make a living so there are lots of wells to run and huge fuel bills to pay . I am not sure the . 30 " will do it but it sure helps . The next thing the farmer will worry about is when we will get our first hard frost which means the end of the growing season for most of the crops . Milo will continue to mature if not hit by a hard frost but soy beans and corn will pretty much be done . An early frost will also reduce your yields . It is never a sure thing until the crop is harvested and in the elevator or bin . Well , thaPosted by Thank goodness I am done putting up sweetcorn for another year . I don 't know how many reading this freeze corn every year or have ever done it so I took some photos this morning to give you an idea what the process looks like . This is the second batch I have done this summer so my freezer has corn ready to fix for meals all this next year . The last time I did corn a few weeks ago I had about 3 - 4 times as much corn to do and it took several more hours to get it done . For the un - initiated I am going to tell you how I do it . This is the only vegetable I preserve as I just can 't buy corn that tastes as good as the home frozen kind so every year I insist on getting it done even though it is a lot of work . John helped pick and shuck the corn this morning . Our 5 horses were across the fence looking at us and letting us know they sure wanted a share so I would gather up a few armfuls of shucks and toss them over every once in a while . They were in horsey heaven as they were munching I am sure . I then brought it into the house to wash and get as much of the silk off as possible . The first photo shows all the washed corn stacked and ready to cook . I boil it all a few minutes to set the juices then the corn gets removed from the kettle and put into ice water to stop the cooking process and to get it cooled ready to cut off the cob . The second photo shows my sinks with the cooling corn . The next step is to cut it off the cob - photo 3 shows the pans of corn kernels . I use a vacuum sealer on the bags of corn that get put into my large freezer - photo 4 . The last photo is of my dehydrator . I am going to dry about half of the corn I cut off this morning and will seal it up in bags after it is dry . I have not done this for a few years but I really like using the dried sweet corn to make corn bread . I put the dried corn into my blender and it grinds it pretty fine . To catch the large pieces that do not get ground fine enough sifting the ground corn it catches those . They get thrown back into the blender for more grinding . The cornbrPosted by Well , I got the binding stitched down this afternoon so technically it is finished . I still need to hand stitch the sleeve down and get a label on it though . The machine quilting really helped the outside border not be so plain but the quilt still looks like a miss - mash in the center . The applique doesn 't stand out enough and the light areas are too quiet compared to the center . I do like it better now that it is finished though . Not sure what I will name it yet as I have always called it the Mystery Quilt - maybe that should be it 's name . The wool batting is OK now that it is all stitched down but it was a little difficult to control after I got the center quilted . After the center was finished the borders really puffed out and I had to be really careful not to stitch pleats in the back or the front . I probably should have re - basted it but didn 't want to take the time . We have guild meeting in a few hours so now I can collect the rest of the stuff I am taking along . This year for our service project we are collecting food for the local food pantry . Each month it will be a different food item and tonight we are to bring canned vegetables . Lynn It seems like I will never get done quilting this Mystery quilt . I don 't think I am getting better on the free hand stipples but the outside vine border didn 't go too badly . At least I was more comfortable when I was quilting it . I drew the leaf border on with the new Fons and Porter marking pencil . It looks just like the Bolin one so must be manufactured by the same company I would guess . It really marked nice on the fabric and after I finish the quilt will see how easy it is to get out . I did mark really light but missed the line sometimes when I was quilting the leaves , etc . I changed back to the heavier Sulky 30 wt . variegated thread for the border quilting . It really makes those leaves and berries stand out . The last part to be quilted is the background around the leaves , berries , vine . I changed colors of thread and am using a tan bottom line and just doing the free hand stipple - not very well again though . The space is tight but felt I needed to quilt it down since the rest of the quilt is heavily quilted . Another contributing problem to the quilting is that I used Hobbs Wool Batting . It is way too fluffy for me and wants to puff out too much for my taste . That is why I am heavily quilting the piece . Don 't think I will use that on a project again like this as the basting is not holding it flat enough - maybe I should have basted closer for this batting - hmmm ? The miniature flower garden quilt I am hand quilting has this batting in it too but I split it in half and it doesn 't seem to heavy for the miniature and is not so out of control puffy . I took this photo just a minute ago from the back side of the machine . I quit quilting around midnight last night and will pick up where I left off today when I get back to it today . You can see how the cord to my new LED light is held to the back of my machine in this photo too . I do LOVE that light ! ! ! My goal is to have this done by tomorrow night ( Thursday ) so I can take it to my quilt guild meeting . Have some things to do today so not sure how much I will get done bPosted by I finally got to machine quilting yesterday on the Mystery Quilt . The BSR is nice but there is a learning curve to it , especially when I have not done that much machine quilting . My first mistake was I bought a heavier thread than I intended . It is a beautiful shaded green 100 % cotton Sulky 30 wt . I didn 't even notice the wt . when i purchased it I guess . I had one motif almost done when I figured it out and didn 't want to rip so continued quilting the motifs with this thread then changed to Bottom Line for the background quilting . My machine quilting is really needing practice . I do fine for a while then quick as a wink i can get angles and jogs where there should be smooth lines . I am also having trouble with my top thread breaking at times . I have changed needles , cleaned the bobbin area and re - threaded but it still breaks occasionally . If anyone out there can advise me I would appreciate it . ( Have the 730 Bernina with BSR - just to remind you ) Anyway this is what it looks like so far . Am doing a simple stipple stitch for the background then will have a design in the last border where I will change back to the 30 wt . thread . I need to quilt in the centers of the leaf rings yet and about half of the stippling to go . Our tomato plants are really producing now and I just love them . I don 't do any canning anymore but we eat a lot then give a lot away too . The cucumbers have slowed down some but still finding a few to eat . The second batch of sweet corn is ready now too so enjoying eating that again . I do want to freeze some more and hopefully can get that done this week sometime . ( Too busy quilting this morning to do it today . ) I want to share a really good recipe for baked zucchini that I got from a friend . It is wonderful ! My sister gave me some zucchini last weekend as I don 't grow it in my garden and I made the casserole a couple of days ago . Glad there is some left over as I plan to have it for lunch today ! Baked Zucchini 5 - 7 small zucchini . peeled Cut zucchini into slices and pan boil for 5 minutes . Drain . Melt butter and cream cheese . Add rest of ingredients and mix well . Put into greased 1 1 / 2 quart casserole . Garnish with buttered cracker crumbs . Bake at 350 degrees for 30 minutes . Try it you will like it - my theory is if you put cream cheese on anything it will taste good . Lynn No , I didn 't fall off the face of the earth the last couple of weeks . I don 't know where the time went last week but this week we have had our two grandson 's here for a visit . We had them for 3 days and nights and now this grandma is TIRED ! The boys are 2 1 / 2 and 5 1 / 2 and very active . Of course I couldn 't trust the younger one so I was constantly following him around and had to be outside when he was , plus all the cooking . ( Don 't cook that much for just John and myself anymore ) There are just too many things on the farm that can be dangerous . Anyway they left to go home this morning so it is nice and quiet this evening as I write this . I bet their parents were not used to the quite the last 3 days either and it probably felt like a mini - vacation to them . I met two friends this morning and we took our quilts to Lincoln to check them in to the State Fair . That didn 't take too long so our next adventure was to go to the International Quilt Study Center . One of the gals had never been there and the Nancy Crow exhibit was due to close this weekend and we wanted her to see the fantastic building and the exhibit of the centers quilts plus Nancy 's quilts . We finished off our time in Lincoln by going to Hancock 's to have one gals scissors sharpened . We happened to catch a day where there were a lot of items at 50 % off . I had looked at the rotating cutting boards before but with the discount I decided to get one . Think it will be really handy sitting beside my sewing machine . Since I have done no sewing the last two weeks you get to look at another miniature quilt I made a few years ago for one of the doll beds in my collection . This quilt I named " Crazy Ties " . The 1 " center blocks were designed on the computer and paper pieced from old neck ties . Each piece is outlined with a blanket / buttonhole stitch using gold thread . The center of the quilt is tied and the border is quilted . I had seen a large antique crazy quilt once with gold fringe so decided to try and find some to add to the edges of this quilt . Found some 3 " fringePosted by Club Sew in Lincoln was fun to go to yesterday . I had planned on attending the 1 : 30 pm session but since I was wide awake at 5 : 30 am I decided to just get ready and attend the 9 : 30 am one instead . It is almost a 2 hour drive to Lincoln from my house so had to be on the road by 7 : 30 am to be on time . The gals presenting were from a small group that got together after Ricki Timms presentation last August in Omaha . They all did Convergence quilts and now are all working on quilts with a Coneflower theme . They all told how they accomplished the different things on each quilt and how they each attacked the project from a little different way . Learned how to put a facing on a quilt and may try that some time on one of my miniatures . The quilts were all beautiful . I did purchase some more bobbins and the Free Motion Couching foot ( no . 43 ) and a couple of spools of Bottom Line thread . Am anxious to try the couching foot as the yarn or cord comes through the hole as it is stitched so it can be all attached with a straight stitch . Looked pretty cool on the Bernina web video http : / / tiny . cc / Berninafoot43 so decided that could be something I might use . The magnifier lenses I want to get had not arrived at the store yet so will have to wait a bit for them . I pulled one of the post cards I had made some time ago and finished it to give to my mother instead of a regular birthday card . She had admired it once when I was showing her some of the ones I had made so decided she should get it . I have learned after putting the backs on some right after I made them I had more trouble personalizing them . I like to print some poem or message onto cardstock using pretty fonts , etc . This saves me from mispelling a word or messing up the back somehow . Now I just do the front of the card then wait until I know who I am going to give it to before I finish the back . Since I am going to hand deliver this to her with her gift I printed the words out centered on card stock that are appropriate to her and maybe the card too . I attached it to the back Posted by I got the entire outside border on that mystery quilt marked yesterday afternoon . It wasn 't hard just time consuming . I used my light box set up and away I went . This is the first time I used the Fons and Porter mechanical marking pencil . I used the dark lead and it sure marked nice . The pencil has an eraser on the end and it seems to take the marks off ok , at least my test on a scrap of fabric came off . Even with that I tried to mark with a light hand . Will let you know later if the marks came off easy or not . Today I have not done any quilting as the sweet corn was ready to be picked and prepared for the freezer . John helped me pick and shuck it but it was my job to get it all blanched , cooled , cut off the cob , and bagged . I finished about 5 : 00 pm and am pooped ! I sure am glad to have it all in the freezer now - all 49 bags . I don 't have my kitchen cleaned up yet but needed a break from standing . I do lay a couple of layers newsprint on the floor and counter to catch most of the errant kernels and mess . I get end rolls from the newspaper office - they give it away . Do need to pick it all up and get my dirty pans , etc . in the dishwasher yet too . Since I didn 't do anything new to show I photographed a couple of miniature quilts I made a few years ago . These hang on walls in my home . This first one is called " Not Quite a Charm " and is hand pieced in the English Paper Piecing method over papers . The small leaf border is machine appliqued with the invisible thread . The quilt is hand quilted . Have included a close up of one corner with a ruler in the photo to help with the dimensions - it is 10 " x 11 " . This next quilt is 18 " square and is all machine pieced , machine appliqued and hand quilted . I call it " Nebraska Quasars " . I quilted using dark thread on the light fabrics and light thread on the dark fabrics . I go to Lincoln tomorrow for the first Club Sew meeting at my Bernina Dealer 's store - was given a yr . free with the purchase of my 730 so want to take advantage of it and attend as many as I can . Think there is a diPosted by Today I have had a lot of time to myself without interruptions - John had to be gone for the day so was not popping in and out of the house all day like usual . Was nice not to have to make dinner too as I just warmed up a few leftovers and ate quickly so I could get back to work . Have spent the entire day drawing and figuring out what design I want to quilt in the borders of my mystery quilt . I have a photo of the quilt after I got the applique done on it in my July 3 post . Thought I would tell you how I design and transfer my quilting designs . I have rigged up a light box using my Horn air lift sewing table . First I have to remove the sewing machine , then place a large piece of Plexiglas over the opening . I put a florescent light fixture on the air lift shelf ( where my machine usually sits . ) The light was an inexpensive one we had used one time at another house under a desk upper shelf to illuminate the desk . It turns on and off with a switch on the light . This first photo is what it looks like ready to use . This next photo shows a hand drawn vine with leaves and berries that at one time I was going to applique throughout the pieced quilt but changed my mind and did leaves and berries in circles instead . This vine was too wide for my border as it was , so laid my border paper ( just taped copy paper together ) with my registration marks and traced different leaves and berries in different spots after I drew the center vine . I sometimes flipped the tracing paper design over to change the leaf to it 's mirror image . This is a view of the short side border all drawn . I draw in pencil then when I am satisfied I go over the design with a marker . I used this short side diagram to make the long side adding more leaves and berries where needed as each section was just a little longer than the sections on the short side . Here are the two borders ready to use with the light box and transfer them to the borders of the quilt . I am going to have to make a little adjustment in the corners with one berry as it 's stem is just a little Posted by I have not gotten to my sewing machine since I have been home from convention and am anxious to get started on anything right now just to be able to sew . This week has been busy with other things . Had lunch with two friends yesterday and we had a mini - show and tell which makes me want to sew even more . They showed all the things they had done recently and I didn 't have much - just what I did in class in convention and the challenge quilts from NSQG and our guild . We had our first sweet corn yesterday - YUM ! It is always such a treat and I can 't wait for it to be ready each year . Of course I make a pig out of myself the first few times too . I imagine I will be preparing the sweet corn for the freezer some time soon too so no sewing then either . Decided to photograph some other miniature quilts I have made in the past . This first one I call " Island Treasure . " It is paper pieced , hand quilted and finished in 2002 . I included a close up shot of the quilting in the second photo . This mini won the miniature quilt category at the State Fair in 2002 . The next one is made from batik fabric with frogs - I beaded one and made it into a small wall hanging in 2005 . The last quilt " Woven Gems " is one I made for a doll bed this past year . It doesn 't look like it but it was one of the hardest miniatures I have ever done . Getting the 9 patches to look square then to match them to the snowball block was really difficult . Still not perfect but as good as I could do . These last two were machine quilted . I just finished entering quilts for the Nebraska State Fair and entered " Woven Gems " in the Doll Quilt category . Don 't expect to do real well this year as all three that I entered have some problem or other . The other two entered are the " Morning Star Over The Pine Ridge " and the " Three Flowers " , both are posted on earlier posts . Lynn

Good morning everyone ! Looks like a nice sunny day even though it is supposed to get warmer than it has the last few weeks it is still going to be a beautiful day . John says the crops really need some hotter weather to mature before it freezes so guess I had better wish for a hotter day as well . Think I will be inside most of the day unless I get out to mow later this afternoon . The grass and weeds are so wet early in the morning and don 't dry off until at least noon anyway . Mowing is not my favorite thing to do but John mows now and again when he has time . Mowing the lawn is not a pain but it is mowing all the other areas of the farm I don 't like . It takes 4 hours at least to get it all done and mowing the farm yard is always so dirty too . It always looks so nice when I finish that I try to think of that as the dirt is showering down on me . For you " city " friends the farm yard , with the exception of the lawn around the house , has some grass but it is mostly low growing weeds . The grass and weeds in those areas don 't grow as close together so the dirt in between the plants gets disturbed and comes shooting out the side along with the cut grass / weeds . If there is any wind it blows back in your face - YUCK ! I got so much done yesterday - must have had an energy serge . At least it felt like I got a lot done anyway . I quilted the cat in the center and worked on getting the corners quilted . I really like how this is coming along so far . Using the BSR is getting easier the more I quilt but I still quilt very slow . I quilted the outside motif in orange thread then outlined it in the silk thread . The area between the points and the motif I did the tiny circles with the silk thread . Not sure I am doing them right but they are looking OK . Will be doing the outline and circles on the outside of the orange motifs too but will stop short of the corner a little . I want that last pointy part of the motif to point exactly to the corner so will trim the quilt and make sure it is drawn correctly then quilt that last before I bind it . I stopped quilting early last evening to watch the University of Nebraska girls play their first Volleyball game . It was really exciting to watch them beat Stanford the # 2 ranked team in 3 sets . While I watched the game I worked on sorting my fabrics . I had hauled all the boxes from their shelves and deposited them in the family room . Figured I would get them sorted quickly if I wanted that room to be livable again , plus I would not stop at sorting just a box or two if they are all sitting out on my table and floor . I managed to get several sorted and re - folded but have a couple more to do . I took a photo this morning of what they looked like - should have taken one last evening before I started . There was fabric draped over everything , plus a few other missing things as well - have been looking for that bungee cord ! Anyway it is a good start and will continue to straighten tonight . I am trying to sort out a lot of fabrics that I don 't think I will use and putting them in bags . Will use this fabric to make lap quilts for the various donation projects our guild does and thought this would be a good way to use up the fabric plus practice my machine quilting skills . We go to the State Fair early tomorrow to Posted by When you live in the country away from any close shopping areas you learn to make do with what you have on hand sometimes . ( It is at least an hour drive to any quilt shop and then they don 't carry all the threads that I like . End up going to Grand Island which is an hour and 20 minutes away or to Lincoln which is an hour and 45 minutes away if I need specific thread or fabrics . Needless to say I need to have a bigger shopping list than just thread to travel that far . ) That is the case this time when I looked through my threads to find what I wanted to use to quilt this quilt I am now calling - " Waiting for Halloween " I have read of quilters using silk thread for their machine quilting so am giving it a try . I had the perfect shade of YLI Silk # 100 http : / / www . ylicorp . com / YLIProducts . html thread to match the background behind the applique in my thread stash that I usually use for hand applique . I stipple quilted plus used it to outline the applique and to quilt on the pumpkin , flowers and leaf . I really like how the thread almost disappears into the background but when you look close you can see it . I am using Bottom Line thread from Superior Threads http : / / www . superiorthreads . com / in my bobbin and that is working great too . I am now a convert from using all cotton thread I think . The last few pieces I have quilted using Bottom Line have turned out wonderful and it really is nice that the tension stays so good - the top threads are not pulled to the bottom or the bottom threads being pulled to the top . They stay where they belong so I can change colors of top thread and you would never know it by looking at the back of my quilt . Click on the pictures to get a larger view of what has been quilted so far . This morning right before noon I started quilting on the corner motifs in orange thread . ( Will show a photo of that maybe tomorrow ) I am using 100 % cotton 50 / 3 Mettler thread http : / / www . amefird . com / mettler . htm as I wanted a little thicker thread so it would show up better . I do happen to have some orange silk threadPosted by My sewing room was cleaned up a little this morning so took a photo before it became it 's usual mess . I have a great view out the large windows when I am sitting at my machine and they let in a lot of natural light - we had replaced the old bedroom window with this bow window when we remodeled and I love it . The other half of this room is the office that I share with John . Sometime when that half of the room is clean I will snap a photo of it to show you but right now it is a disaster and I wouldn 't want you to think we are slobs . I have some tall bookshelves for my quilt books and magazines on one side and on the other is the island we took out of the kitchen when we remodeled . It is a great height to use for my cutting board and I also sit my large pressing board on it . Right now there is an ugly piece of fabric laying over the pressing board to protect it from the spray starch I was using . Behind the island is a closet with a bi - fold door . This room was originally my in - laws bedroom and the closet was one of the two they used for their clothes . I use it for sewing stuff but it needs to be cleaned and organized after living here for 3 1 / 2 years . When we moved in I put things where I thought it all should go but by now it all needs organized a little better and some stuff needs to be sorted out and disposed of . I want you to notice the small pin cushion sitting to the right of my machine . A friend made that for me recently and it is really handy in that it is small and I can use it beside my machine or take it to where ever I am working . She purchased a heavy napkin ring and some fabric to cover a filler of wool batting . It doesn 't take up too much room and the napkin ring is metal so has some weight to keep it from tipping over . Yesterday I worked as a " white glover " at the Nebraska State Fair quilt department . I always enjoy the job which really isn 't work at all . There are chairs to sit in but most of the time I find myself walking in the area I am assigned to and looking at the quilts , studying the piecing / applique designs and the quilting on each piece . I did take a lot of photos but they are still on my camera . Maybe I will get to it tomorrow . As " white glovers " we tried to answer visitors questions , most of which were pretty basic and were there to help protect the quilts . Only had one incident where I had to say something and that was when a few teenagers thought they were going to chase each other and run between the rows of quilts by going underneath the quilts - WRONG ! Most of them sheepishly left the quilt area after being told that wasn 't allowed . There were a few vendors ( just general fair vendors - not quilt supply vendors ) around the edge of the quilt display . Our shift didn 't get over until 1 : 30 pm so we were all getting a little hungry and my last station was right in front of a roasted soybean vendor . I would not have bought any except he had samples to taste and after trying several kinds I knew I just had to have some to take home . I bought some cherry coated roasted ones and some lightly salted roasted soybeans . I probably would never had bought the cherry ones if I had not tasted a sample but they are really very good . Now I am resisting the urge to open the packages but I decided I would wait until we had some company . Neither John or I have much will power when it comes to snacks so we would probably finish them off rather quickly . Tuesday I wanted to work on something / anything on my new sewing machine but didn 't have anything recent started or any ideas for something new . Really need to get a new quilt started so I will always have something to sew when the mood strikes . Since I got this machine I have wanted to use it everyday I can but just ran out of things to do . I got out my box of UFOs and pulled out a blockPosted by I just found out that one of my quilts received a 2nd place ribbon and the other two didn 't place . I am surprised about the quilt that did get the ribbon . I had thought about not taking it as I thought it had obvious problems . You never know what competition each quilt has and what the judge is looking for . Now I am anxious to go to the fair and see all the quilts . Five of us will go up on Wed . to work as white glovers in the quilt department . We have been going up for more years than I can remember and everyone is quick to say yes when I ask if they want to do it each year . When you volunteer you get up close to the quilts and can really take a lot of time looking at them , answer questions from people walking through the show and also as quasi quilt police . ( See there really are quilt police ! ) Our job is to keep people from touching the quilts or damaging them in any way . The people wandering through the exhibit range from quilters of all ages to non - quilters that don 't have any idea about the quilting process , judging process or even what is machine quilting or hand quilting . It is so much fun to visit with everyone and try to help them understand if they have questions . This year there are 371 quilts in the exhibit from miniatures to full sized quilts . The quality of the quilts at Nebraska 's state fair is always very good so is a treat to be able to get the chance to white glove . Now for the photo for this blog . This is a clay frog a friend gave me a few years ago . I am a frog collector as well as a quilter and this was perfect - a frog and a quilt together ! It is only about 1 3 / 4 " tall and is so cute . It is meant to hang as an ornament but I have it sitting on a shelf . This photo is quite a bit bigger than the actual frog ! So long for now . . . Lynn Yesterday I worked on a miniature quilt that I can not show you a photo of . Now don 't you just hate that teaser . It is to be sent to a friend and she reads this blog so guess until I get it finished , mailed off and know she has gotten it everyone will just have to wait to see it . We had rain here off and on all day yesterday but it didn 't amount to much - only . 30 " . I had an interesting conversation with a cousin of mine from Florida last weekend . She grew up on a farm in western Nebraska but now lives in a city where she raised her three girls . She commented that her girls would get to laughing at the letters her mother ( their grandmother ) would write about getting rain . They though it was so funny and would laugh and joke about the fact that she always included how much rain they got , down to the hundredths of an inch . She said they would never understand that to a farmer the amount of rain that comes down is very important . Rain equals more profit at harvest if you are a farmer that can irrigate and if you are a farmer that can 't irrigate it comes down to just having any profit at all from a years work . It is the first topic of conversation when ever farmers meet after any rain storm . That being said , we have been wanting a little more rain to keep from running our irrigation wells again this season on the corn . With the price of fuel the costs are enormous . Each well engine burns approximately 3 gallons an hour so over the period of a day it mounts up . Most farmers here have to farm quite a few acres to make a living so there are lots of wells to run and huge fuel bills to pay . I am not sure the . 30 " will do it but it sure helps . The next thing the farmer will worry about is when we will get our first hard frost which means the end of the growing season for most of the crops . Milo will continue to mature if not hit by a hard frost but soy beans and corn will pretty much be done . An early frost will also reduce your yields . It is never a sure thing until the crop is harvested and in the elevator or bin . Well , thaPosted by Thank goodness I am done putting up sweetcorn for another year . I don 't know how many reading this freeze corn every year or have ever done it so I took some photos this morning to give you an idea what the process looks like . This is the second batch I have done this summer so my freezer has corn ready to fix for meals all this next year . The last time I did corn a few weeks ago I had about 3 - 4 times as much corn to do and it took several more hours to get it done . For the un - initiated I am going to tell you how I do it . This is the only vegetable I preserve as I just can 't buy corn that tastes as good as the home frozen kind so every year I insist on getting it done even though it is a lot of work . John helped pick and shuck the corn this morning . Our 5 horses were across the fence looking at us and letting us know they sure wanted a share so I would gather up a few armfuls of shucks and toss them over every once in a while . They were in horsey heaven as they were munching I am sure . I then brought it into the house to wash and get as much of the silk off as possible . The first photo shows all the washed corn stacked and ready to cook . I boil it all a few minutes to set the juices then the corn gets removed from the kettle and put into ice water to stop the cooking process and to get it cooled ready to cut off the cob . The second photo shows my sinks with the cooling corn . The next step is to cut it off the cob - photo 3 shows the pans of corn kernels . I use a vacuum sealer on the bags of corn that get put into my large freezer - photo 4 . The last photo is of my dehydrator . I am going to dry about half of the corn I cut off this morning and will seal it up in bags after it is dry . I have not done this for a few years but I really like using the dried sweet corn to make corn bread . I put the dried corn into my blender and it grinds it pretty fine . To catch the large pieces that do not get ground fine enough sifting the ground corn it catches those . They get thrown back into the blender for more grinding . The cornbrPosted by Well , I got the binding stitched down this afternoon so technically it is finished . I still need to hand stitch the sleeve down and get a label on it though . The machine quilting really helped the outside border not be so plain but the quilt still looks like a miss - mash in the center . The applique doesn 't stand out enough and the light areas are too quiet compared to the center . I do like it better now that it is finished though . Not sure what I will name it yet as I have always called it the Mystery Quilt - maybe that should be it 's name . The wool batting is OK now that it is all stitched down but it was a little difficult to control after I got the center quilted . After the center was finished the borders really puffed out and I had to be really careful not to stitch pleats in the back or the front . I probably should have re - basted it but didn 't want to take the time . We have guild meeting in a few hours so now I can collect the rest of the stuff I am taking along . This year for our service project we are collecting food for the local food pantry . Each month it will be a different food item and tonight we are to bring canned vegetables . Lynn It seems like I will never get done quilting this Mystery quilt . I don 't think I am getting better on the free hand stipples but the outside vine border didn 't go too badly . At least I was more comfortable when I was quilting it . I drew the leaf border on with the new Fons and Porter marking pencil . It looks just like the Bolin one so must be manufactured by the same company I would guess . It really marked nice on the fabric and after I finish the quilt will see how easy it is to get out . I did mark really light but missed the line sometimes when I was quilting the leaves , etc . I changed back to the heavier Sulky 30 wt . variegated thread for the border quilting . It really makes those leaves and berries stand out . The last part to be quilted is the background around the leaves , berries , vine . I changed colors of thread and am using a tan bottom line and just doing the free hand stipple - not very well again though . The space is tight but felt I needed to quilt it down since the rest of the quilt is heavily quilted . Another contributing problem to the quilting is that I used Hobbs Wool Batting . It is way too fluffy for me and wants to puff out too much for my taste . That is why I am heavily quilting the piece . Don 't think I will use that on a project again like this as the basting is not holding it flat enough - maybe I should have basted closer for this batting - hmmm ? The miniature flower garden quilt I am hand quilting has this batting in it too but I split it in half and it doesn 't seem to heavy for the miniature and is not so out of control puffy . I took this photo just a minute ago from the back side of the machine . I quit quilting around midnight last night and will pick up where I left off today when I get back to it today . You can see how the cord to my new LED light is held to the back of my machine in this photo too . I do LOVE that light ! ! ! My goal is to have this done by tomorrow night ( Thursday ) so I can take it to my quilt guild meeting . Have some things to do today so not sure how much I will get done bPosted by I finally got to machine quilting yesterday on the Mystery Quilt . The BSR is nice but there is a learning curve to it , especially when I have not done that much machine quilting . My first mistake was I bought a heavier thread than I intended . It is a beautiful shaded green 100 % cotton Sulky 30 wt . I didn 't even notice the wt . when i purchased it I guess . I had one motif almost done when I figured it out and didn 't want to rip so continued quilting the motifs with this thread then changed to Bottom Line for the background quilting . My machine quilting is really needing practice . I do fine for a while then quick as a wink i can get angles and jogs where there should be smooth lines . I am also having trouble with my top thread breaking at times . I have changed needles , cleaned the bobbin area and re - threaded but it still breaks occasionally . If anyone out there can advise me I would appreciate it . ( Have the 730 Bernina with BSR - just to remind you ) Anyway this is what it looks like so far . Am doing a simple stipple stitch for the background then will have a design in the last border where I will change back to the 30 wt . thread . I need to quilt in the centers of the leaf rings yet and about half of the stippling to go . Our tomato plants are really producing now and I just love them . I don 't do any canning anymore but we eat a lot then give a lot away too . The cucumbers have slowed down some but still finding a few to eat . The second batch of sweet corn is ready now too so enjoying eating that again . I do want to freeze some more and hopefully can get that done this week sometime . ( Too busy quilting this morning to do it today . ) I want to share a really good recipe for baked zucchini that I got from a friend . It is wonderful ! My sister gave me some zucchini last weekend as I don 't grow it in my garden and I made the casserole a couple of days ago . Glad there is some left over as I plan to have it for lunch today ! Baked Zucchini 5 - 7 small zucchini . peeled Cut zucchini into slices and pan boil for 5 minutes . Drain . Melt butter and cream cheese . Add rest of ingredients and mix well . Put into greased 1 1 / 2 quart casserole . Garnish with buttered cracker crumbs . Bake at 350 degrees for 30 minutes . Try it you will like it - my theory is if you put cream cheese on anything it will taste good . Lynn No , I didn 't fall off the face of the earth the last couple of weeks . I don 't know where the time went last week but this week we have had our two grandson 's here for a visit . We had them for 3 days and nights and now this grandma is TIRED ! The boys are 2 1 / 2 and 5 1 / 2 and very active . Of course I couldn 't trust the younger one so I was constantly following him around and had to be outside when he was , plus all the cooking . ( Don 't cook that much for just John and myself anymore ) There are just too many things on the farm that can be dangerous . Anyway they left to go home this morning so it is nice and quiet this evening as I write this . I bet their parents were not used to the quite the last 3 days either and it probably felt like a mini - vacation to them . I met two friends this morning and we took our quilts to Lincoln to check them in to the State Fair . That didn 't take too long so our next adventure was to go to the International Quilt Study Center . One of the gals had never been there and the Nancy Crow exhibit was due to close this weekend and we wanted her to see the fantastic building and the exhibit of the centers quilts plus Nancy 's quilts . We finished off our time in Lincoln by going to Hancock 's to have one gals scissors sharpened . We happened to catch a day where there were a lot of items at 50 % off . I had looked at the rotating cutting boards before but with the discount I decided to get one . Think it will be really handy sitting beside my sewing machine . Since I have done no sewing the last two weeks you get to look at another miniature quilt I made a few years ago for one of the doll beds in my collection . This quilt I named " Crazy Ties " . The 1 " center blocks were designed on the computer and paper pieced from old neck ties . Each piece is outlined with a blanket / buttonhole stitch using gold thread . The center of the quilt is tied and the border is quilted . I had seen a large antique crazy quilt once with gold fringe so decided to try and find some to add to the edges of this quilt . Found some 3 " fringePosted by Club Sew in Lincoln was fun to go to yesterday . I had planned on attending the 1 : 30 pm session but since I was wide awake at 5 : 30 am I decided to just get ready and attend the 9 : 30 am one instead . It is almost a 2 hour drive to Lincoln from my house so had to be on the road by 7 : 30 am to be on time . The gals presenting were from a small group that got together after Ricki Timms presentation last August in Omaha . They all did Convergence quilts and now are all working on quilts with a Coneflower theme . They all told how they accomplished the different things on each quilt and how they each attacked the project from a little different way . Learned how to put a facing on a quilt and may try that some time on one of my miniatures . The quilts were all beautiful . I did purchase some more bobbins and the Free Motion Couching foot ( no . 43 ) and a couple of spools of Bottom Line thread . Am anxious to try the couching foot as the yarn or cord comes through the hole as it is stitched so it can be all attached with a straight stitch . Looked pretty cool on the Bernina web video http : / / tiny . cc / Berninafoot43 so decided that could be something I might use . The magnifier lenses I want to get had not arrived at the store yet so will have to wait a bit for them . I pulled one of the post cards I had made some time ago and finished it to give to my mother instead of a regular birthday card . She had admired it once when I was showing her some of the ones I had made so decided she should get it . I have learned after putting the backs on some right after I made them I had more trouble personalizing them . I like to print some poem or message onto cardstock using pretty fonts , etc . This saves me from mispelling a word or messing up the back somehow . Now I just do the front of the card then wait until I know who I am going to give it to before I finish the back . Since I am going to hand deliver this to her with her gift I printed the words out centered on card stock that are appropriate to her and maybe the card too . I attached it to the back Posted by I got the entire outside border on that mystery quilt marked yesterday afternoon . It wasn 't hard just time consuming . I used my light box set up and away I went . This is the first time I used the Fons and Porter mechanical marking pencil . I used the dark lead and it sure marked nice . The pencil has an eraser on the end and it seems to take the marks off ok , at least my test on a scrap of fabric came off . Even with that I tried to mark with a light hand . Will let you know later if the marks came off easy or not . Today I have not done any quilting as the sweet corn was ready to be picked and prepared for the freezer . John helped me pick and shuck it but it was my job to get it all blanched , cooled , cut off the cob , and bagged . I finished about 5 : 00 pm and am pooped ! I sure am glad to have it all in the freezer now - all 49 bags . I don 't have my kitchen cleaned up yet but needed a break from standing . I do lay a couple of layers newsprint on the floor and counter to catch most of the errant kernels and mess . I get end rolls from the newspaper office - they give it away . Do need to pick it all up and get my dirty pans , etc . in the dishwasher yet too . Since I didn 't do anything new to show I photographed a couple of miniature quilts I made a few years ago . These hang on walls in my home . This first one is called " Not Quite a Charm " and is hand pieced in the English Paper Piecing method over papers . The small leaf border is machine appliqued with the invisible thread . The quilt is hand quilted . Have included a close up of one corner with a ruler in the photo to help with the dimensions - it is 10 " x 11 " . This next quilt is 18 " square and is all machine pieced , machine appliqued and hand quilted . I call it " Nebraska Quasars " . I quilted using dark thread on the light fabrics and light thread on the dark fabrics . I go to Lincoln tomorrow for the first Club Sew meeting at my Bernina Dealer 's store - was given a yr . free with the purchase of my 730 so want to take advantage of it and attend as many as I can . Think there is a diPosted by Today I have had a lot of time to myself without interruptions - John had to be gone for the day so was not popping in and out of the house all day like usual . Was nice not to have to make dinner too as I just warmed up a few leftovers and ate quickly so I could get back to work . Have spent the entire day drawing and figuring out what design I want to quilt in the borders of my mystery quilt . I have a photo of the quilt after I got the applique done on it in my July 3 post . Thought I would tell you how I design and transfer my quilting designs . I have rigged up a light box using my Horn air lift sewing table . First I have to remove the sewing machine , then place a large piece of Plexiglas over the opening . I put a florescent light fixture on the air lift shelf ( where my machine usually sits . ) The light was an inexpensive one we had used one time at another house under a desk upper shelf to illuminate the desk . It turns on and off with a switch on the light . This first photo is what it looks like ready to use . This next photo shows a hand drawn vine with leaves and berries that at one time I was going to applique throughout the pieced quilt but changed my mind and did leaves and berries in circles instead . This vine was too wide for my border as it was , so laid my border paper ( just taped copy paper together ) with my registration marks and traced different leaves and berries in different spots after I drew the center vine . I sometimes flipped the tracing paper design over to change the leaf to it 's mirror image . This is a view of the short side border all drawn . I draw in pencil then when I am satisfied I go over the design with a marker . I used this short side diagram to make the long side adding more leaves and berries where needed as each section was just a little longer than the sections on the short side . Here are the two borders ready to use with the light box and transfer them to the borders of the quilt . I am going to have to make a little adjustment in the corners with one berry as it 's stem is just a little Posted by I have not gotten to my sewing machine since I have been home from convention and am anxious to get started on anything right now just to be able to sew . This week has been busy with other things . Had lunch with two friends yesterday and we had a mini - show and tell which makes me want to sew even more . They showed all the things they had done recently and I didn 't have much - just what I did in class in convention and the challenge quilts from NSQG and our guild . We had our first sweet corn yesterday - YUM ! It is always such a treat and I can 't wait for it to be ready each year . Of course I make a pig out of myself the first few times too . I imagine I will be preparing the sweet corn for the freezer some time soon too so no sewing then either . Decided to photograph some other miniature quilts I have made in the past . This first one I call " Island Treasure . " It is paper pieced , hand quilted and finished in 2002 . I included a close up shot of the quilting in the second photo . This mini won the miniature quilt category at the State Fair in 2002 . The next one is made from batik fabric with frogs - I beaded one and made it into a small wall hanging in 2005 . The last quilt " Woven Gems " is one I made for a doll bed this past year . It doesn 't look like it but it was one of the hardest miniatures I have ever done . Getting the 9 patches to look square then to match them to the snowball block was really difficult . Still not perfect but as good as I could do . These last two were machine quilted . I just finished entering quilts for the Nebraska State Fair and entered " Woven Gems " in the Doll Quilt category . Don 't expect to do real well this year as all three that I entered have some problem or other . The other two entered are the " Morning Star Over The Pine Ridge " and the " Three Flowers " , both are posted on earlier posts . Lynn

Good morning everyone ! Looks like a nice sunny day even though it is supposed to get warmer than it has the last few weeks it is still going to be a beautiful day . John says the crops really need some hotter weather to mature before it freezes so guess I had better wish for a hotter day as well . Think I will be inside most of the day unless I get out to mow later this afternoon . The grass and weeds are so wet early in the morning and don 't dry off until at least noon anyway . Mowing is not my favorite thing to do but John mows now and again when he has time . Mowing the lawn is not a pain but it is mowing all the other areas of the farm I don 't like . It takes 4 hours at least to get it all done and mowing the farm yard is always so dirty too . It always looks so nice when I finish that I try to think of that as the dirt is showering down on me . For you " city " friends the farm yard , with the exception of the lawn around the house , has some grass but it is mostly low growing weeds . The grass and weeds in those areas don 't grow as close together so the dirt in between the plants gets disturbed and comes shooting out the side along with the cut grass / weeds . If there is any wind it blows back in your face - YUCK ! I got so much done yesterday - must have had an energy serge . At least it felt like I got a lot done anyway . I quilted the cat in the center and worked on getting the corners quilted . I really like how this is coming along so far . Using the BSR is getting easier the more I quilt but I still quilt very slow . I quilted the outside motif in orange thread then outlined it in the silk thread . The area between the points and the motif I did the tiny circles with the silk thread . Not sure I am doing them right but they are looking OK . Will be doing the outline and circles on the outside of the orange motifs too but will stop short of the corner a little . I want that last pointy part of the motif to point exactly to the corner so will trim the quilt and make sure it is drawn correctly then quilt that last before I bind it . I stopped quilting early last evening to watch the University of Nebraska girls play their first Volleyball game . It was really exciting to watch them beat Stanford the # 2 ranked team in 3 sets . While I watched the game I worked on sorting my fabrics . I had hauled all the boxes from their shelves and deposited them in the family room . Figured I would get them sorted quickly if I wanted that room to be livable again , plus I would not stop at sorting just a box or two if they are all sitting out on my table and floor . I managed to get several sorted and re - folded but have a couple more to do . I took a photo this morning of what they looked like - should have taken one last evening before I started . There was fabric draped over everything , plus a few other missing things as well - have been looking for that bungee cord ! Anyway it is a good start and will continue to straighten tonight . I am trying to sort out a lot of fabrics that I don 't think I will use and putting them in bags . Will use this fabric to make lap quilts for the various donation projects our guild does and thought this would be a good way to use up the fabric plus practice my machine quilting skills . We go to the State Fair early tomorrow to Posted by When you live in the country away from any close shopping areas you learn to make do with what you have on hand sometimes . ( It is at least an hour drive to any quilt shop and then they don 't carry all the threads that I like . End up going to Grand Island which is an hour and 20 minutes away or to Lincoln which is an hour and 45 minutes away if I need specific thread or fabrics . Needless to say I need to have a bigger shopping list than just thread to travel that far . ) That is the case this time when I looked through my threads to find what I wanted to use to quilt this quilt I am now calling - " Waiting for Halloween " I have read of quilters using silk thread for their machine quilting so am giving it a try . I had the perfect shade of YLI Silk # 100 http : / / www . ylicorp . com / YLIProducts . html thread to match the background behind the applique in my thread stash that I usually use for hand applique . I stipple quilted plus used it to outline the applique and to quilt on the pumpkin , flowers and leaf . I really like how the thread almost disappears into the background but when you look close you can see it . I am using Bottom Line thread from Superior Threads http : / / www . superiorthreads . com / in my bobbin and that is working great too . I am now a convert from using all cotton thread I think . The last few pieces I have quilted using Bottom Line have turned out wonderful and it really is nice that the tension stays so good - the top threads are not pulled to the bottom or the bottom threads being pulled to the top . They stay where they belong so I can change colors of top thread and you would never know it by looking at the back of my quilt . Click on the pictures to get a larger view of what has been quilted so far . This morning right before noon I started quilting on the corner motifs in orange thread . ( Will show a photo of that maybe tomorrow ) I am using 100 % cotton 50 / 3 Mettler thread http : / / www . amefird . com / mettler . htm as I wanted a little thicker thread so it would show up better . I do happen to have some orange silk threadPosted by My sewing room was cleaned up a little this morning so took a photo before it became it 's usual mess . I have a great view out the large windows when I am sitting at my machine and they let in a lot of natural light - we had replaced the old bedroom window with this bow window when we remodeled and I love it . The other half of this room is the office that I share with John . Sometime when that half of the room is clean I will snap a photo of it to show you but right now it is a disaster and I wouldn 't want you to think we are slobs . I have some tall bookshelves for my quilt books and magazines on one side and on the other is the island we took out of the kitchen when we remodeled . It is a great height to use for my cutting board and I also sit my large pressing board on it . Right now there is an ugly piece of fabric laying over the pressing board to protect it from the spray starch I was using . Behind the island is a closet with a bi - fold door . This room was originally my in - laws bedroom and the closet was one of the two they used for their clothes . I use it for sewing stuff but it needs to be cleaned and organized after living here for 3 1 / 2 years . When we moved in I put things where I thought it all should go but by now it all needs organized a little better and some stuff needs to be sorted out and disposed of . I want you to notice the small pin cushion sitting to the right of my machine . A friend made that for me recently and it is really handy in that it is small and I can use it beside my machine or take it to where ever I am working . She purchased a heavy napkin ring and some fabric to cover a filler of wool batting . It doesn 't take up too much room and the napkin ring is metal so has some weight to keep it from tipping over . Yesterday I worked as a " white glover " at the Nebraska State Fair quilt department . I always enjoy the job which really isn 't work at all . There are chairs to sit in but most of the time I find myself walking in the area I am assigned to and looking at the quilts , studying the piecing / applique designs and the quilting on each piece . I did take a lot of photos but they are still on my camera . Maybe I will get to it tomorrow . As " white glovers " we tried to answer visitors questions , most of which were pretty basic and were there to help protect the quilts . Only had one incident where I had to say something and that was when a few teenagers thought they were going to chase each other and run between the rows of quilts by going underneath the quilts - WRONG ! Most of them sheepishly left the quilt area after being told that wasn 't allowed . There were a few vendors ( just general fair vendors - not quilt supply vendors ) around the edge of the quilt display . Our shift didn 't get over until 1 : 30 pm so we were all getting a little hungry and my last station was right in front of a roasted soybean vendor . I would not have bought any except he had samples to taste and after trying several kinds I knew I just had to have some to take home . I bought some cherry coated roasted ones and some lightly salted roasted soybeans . I probably would never had bought the cherry ones if I had not tasted a sample but they are really very good . Now I am resisting the urge to open the packages but I decided I would wait until we had some company . Neither John or I have much will power when it comes to snacks so we would probably finish them off rather quickly . Tuesday I wanted to work on something / anything on my new sewing machine but didn 't have anything recent started or any ideas for something new . Really need to get a new quilt started so I will always have something to sew when the mood strikes . Since I got this machine I have wanted to use it everyday I can but just ran out of things to do . I got out my box of UFOs and pulled out a blockPosted by I just found out that one of my quilts received a 2nd place ribbon and the other two didn 't place . I am surprised about the quilt that did get the ribbon . I had thought about not taking it as I thought it had obvious problems . You never know what competition each quilt has and what the judge is looking for . Now I am anxious to go to the fair and see all the quilts . Five of us will go up on Wed . to work as white glovers in the quilt department . We have been going up for more years than I can remember and everyone is quick to say yes when I ask if they want to do it each year . When you volunteer you get up close to the quilts and can really take a lot of time looking at them , answer questions from people walking through the show and also as quasi quilt police . ( See there really are quilt police ! ) Our job is to keep people from touching the quilts or damaging them in any way . The people wandering through the exhibit range from quilters of all ages to non - quilters that don 't have any idea about the quilting process , judging process or even what is machine quilting or hand quilting . It is so much fun to visit with everyone and try to help them understand if they have questions . This year there are 371 quilts in the exhibit from miniatures to full sized quilts . The quality of the quilts at Nebraska 's state fair is always very good so is a treat to be able to get the chance to white glove . Now for the photo for this blog . This is a clay frog a friend gave me a few years ago . I am a frog collector as well as a quilter and this was perfect - a frog and a quilt together ! It is only about 1 3 / 4 " tall and is so cute . It is meant to hang as an ornament but I have it sitting on a shelf . This photo is quite a bit bigger than the actual frog ! So long for now . . . Lynn Yesterday I worked on a miniature quilt that I can not show you a photo of . Now don 't you just hate that teaser . It is to be sent to a friend and she reads this blog so guess until I get it finished , mailed off and know she has gotten it everyone will just have to wait to see it . We had rain here off and on all day yesterday but it didn 't amount to much - only . 30 " . I had an interesting conversation with a cousin of mine from Florida last weekend . She grew up on a farm in western Nebraska but now lives in a city where she raised her three girls . She commented that her girls would get to laughing at the letters her mother ( their grandmother ) would write about getting rain . They though it was so funny and would laugh and joke about the fact that she always included how much rain they got , down to the hundredths of an inch . She said they would never understand that to a farmer the amount of rain that comes down is very important . Rain equals more profit at harvest if you are a farmer that can irrigate and if you are a farmer that can 't irrigate it comes down to just having any profit at all from a years work . It is the first topic of conversation when ever farmers meet after any rain storm . That being said , we have been wanting a little more rain to keep from running our irrigation wells again this season on the corn . With the price of fuel the costs are enormous . Each well engine burns approximately 3 gallons an hour so over the period of a day it mounts up . Most farmers here have to farm quite a few acres to make a living so there are lots of wells to run and huge fuel bills to pay . I am not sure the . 30 " will do it but it sure helps . The next thing the farmer will worry about is when we will get our first hard frost which means the end of the growing season for most of the crops . Milo will continue to mature if not hit by a hard frost but soy beans and corn will pretty much be done . An early frost will also reduce your yields . It is never a sure thing until the crop is harvested and in the elevator or bin . Well , thaPosted by Thank goodness I am done putting up sweetcorn for another year . I don 't know how many reading this freeze corn every year or have ever done it so I took some photos this morning to give you an idea what the process looks like . This is the second batch I have done this summer so my freezer has corn ready to fix for meals all this next year . The last time I did corn a few weeks ago I had about 3 - 4 times as much corn to do and it took several more hours to get it done . For the un - initiated I am going to tell you how I do it . This is the only vegetable I preserve as I just can 't buy corn that tastes as good as the home frozen kind so every year I insist on getting it done even though it is a lot of work . John helped pick and shuck the corn this morning . Our 5 horses were across the fence looking at us and letting us know they sure wanted a share so I would gather up a few armfuls of shucks and toss them over every once in a while . They were in horsey heaven as they were munching I am sure . I then brought it into the house to wash and get as much of the silk off as possible . The first photo shows all the washed corn stacked and ready to cook . I boil it all a few minutes to set the juices then the corn gets removed from the kettle and put into ice water to stop the cooking process and to get it cooled ready to cut off the cob . The second photo shows my sinks with the cooling corn . The next step is to cut it off the cob - photo 3 shows the pans of corn kernels . I use a vacuum sealer on the bags of corn that get put into my large freezer - photo 4 . The last photo is of my dehydrator . I am going to dry about half of the corn I cut off this morning and will seal it up in bags after it is dry . I have not done this for a few years but I really like using the dried sweet corn to make corn bread . I put the dried corn into my blender and it grinds it pretty fine . To catch the large pieces that do not get ground fine enough sifting the ground corn it catches those . They get thrown back into the blender for more grinding . The cornbrPosted by Well , I got the binding stitched down this afternoon so technically it is finished . I still need to hand stitch the sleeve down and get a label on it though . The machine quilting really helped the outside border not be so plain but the quilt still looks like a miss - mash in the center . The applique doesn 't stand out enough and the light areas are too quiet compared to the center . I do like it better now that it is finished though . Not sure what I will name it yet as I have always called it the Mystery Quilt - maybe that should be it 's name . The wool batting is OK now that it is all stitched down but it was a little difficult to control after I got the center quilted . After the center was finished the borders really puffed out and I had to be really careful not to stitch pleats in the back or the front . I probably should have re - basted it but didn 't want to take the time . We have guild meeting in a few hours so now I can collect the rest of the stuff I am taking along . This year for our service project we are collecting food for the local food pantry . Each month it will be a different food item and tonight we are to bring canned vegetables . Lynn It seems like I will never get done quilting this Mystery quilt . I don 't think I am getting better on the free hand stipples but the outside vine border didn 't go too badly . At least I was more comfortable when I was quilting it . I drew the leaf border on with the new Fons and Porter marking pencil . It looks just like the Bolin one so must be manufactured by the same company I would guess . It really marked nice on the fabric and after I finish the quilt will see how easy it is to get out . I did mark really light but missed the line sometimes when I was quilting the leaves , etc . I changed back to the heavier Sulky 30 wt . variegated thread for the border quilting . It really makes those leaves and berries stand out . The last part to be quilted is the background around the leaves , berries , vine . I changed colors of thread and am using a tan bottom line and just doing the free hand stipple - not very well again though . The space is tight but felt I needed to quilt it down since the rest of the quilt is heavily quilted . Another contributing problem to the quilting is that I used Hobbs Wool Batting . It is way too fluffy for me and wants to puff out too much for my taste . That is why I am heavily quilting the piece . Don 't think I will use that on a project again like this as the basting is not holding it flat enough - maybe I should have basted closer for this batting - hmmm ? The miniature flower garden quilt I am hand quilting has this batting in it too but I split it in half and it doesn 't seem to heavy for the miniature and is not so out of control puffy . I took this photo just a minute ago from the back side of the machine . I quit quilting around midnight last night and will pick up where I left off today when I get back to it today . You can see how the cord to my new LED light is held to the back of my machine in this photo too . I do LOVE that light ! ! ! My goal is to have this done by tomorrow night ( Thursday ) so I can take it to my quilt guild meeting . Have some things to do today so not sure how much I will get done bPosted by I finally got to machine quilting yesterday on the Mystery Quilt . The BSR is nice but there is a learning curve to it , especially when I have not done that much machine quilting . My first mistake was I bought a heavier thread than I intended . It is a beautiful shaded green 100 % cotton Sulky 30 wt . I didn 't even notice the wt . when i purchased it I guess . I had one motif almost done when I figured it out and didn 't want to rip so continued quilting the motifs with this thread then changed to Bottom Line for the background quilting . My machine quilting is really needing practice . I do fine for a while then quick as a wink i can get angles and jogs where there should be smooth lines . I am also having trouble with my top thread breaking at times . I have changed needles , cleaned the bobbin area and re - threaded but it still breaks occasionally . If anyone out there can advise me I would appreciate it . ( Have the 730 Bernina with BSR - just to remind you ) Anyway this is what it looks like so far . Am doing a simple stipple stitch for the background then will have a design in the last border where I will change back to the 30 wt . thread . I need to quilt in the centers of the leaf rings yet and about half of the stippling to go . Our tomato plants are really producing now and I just love them . I don 't do any canning anymore but we eat a lot then give a lot away too . The cucumbers have slowed down some but still finding a few to eat . The second batch of sweet corn is ready now too so enjoying eating that again . I do want to freeze some more and hopefully can get that done this week sometime . ( Too busy quilting this morning to do it today . ) I want to share a really good recipe for baked zucchini that I got from a friend . It is wonderful ! My sister gave me some zucchini last weekend as I don 't grow it in my garden and I made the casserole a couple of days ago . Glad there is some left over as I plan to have it for lunch today ! Baked Zucchini 5 - 7 small zucchini . peeled Cut zucchini into slices and pan boil for 5 minutes . Drain . Melt butter and cream cheese . Add rest of ingredients and mix well . Put into greased 1 1 / 2 quart casserole . Garnish with buttered cracker crumbs . Bake at 350 degrees for 30 minutes . Try it you will like it - my theory is if you put cream cheese on anything it will taste good . Lynn No , I didn 't fall off the face of the earth the last couple of weeks . I don 't know where the time went last week but this week we have had our two grandson 's here for a visit . We had them for 3 days and nights and now this grandma is TIRED ! The boys are 2 1 / 2 and 5 1 / 2 and very active . Of course I couldn 't trust the younger one so I was constantly following him around and had to be outside when he was , plus all the cooking . ( Don 't cook that much for just John and myself anymore ) There are just too many things on the farm that can be dangerous . Anyway they left to go home this morning so it is nice and quiet this evening as I write this . I bet their parents were not used to the quite the last 3 days either and it probably felt like a mini - vacation to them . I met two friends this morning and we took our quilts to Lincoln to check them in to the State Fair . That didn 't take too long so our next adventure was to go to the International Quilt Study Center . One of the gals had never been there and the Nancy Crow exhibit was due to close this weekend and we wanted her to see the fantastic building and the exhibit of the centers quilts plus Nancy 's quilts . We finished off our time in Lincoln by going to Hancock 's to have one gals scissors sharpened . We happened to catch a day where there were a lot of items at 50 % off . I had looked at the rotating cutting boards before but with the discount I decided to get one . Think it will be really handy sitting beside my sewing machine . Since I have done no sewing the last two weeks you get to look at another miniature quilt I made a few years ago for one of the doll beds in my collection . This quilt I named " Crazy Ties " . The 1 " center blocks were designed on the computer and paper pieced from old neck ties . Each piece is outlined with a blanket / buttonhole stitch using gold thread . The center of the quilt is tied and the border is quilted . I had seen a large antique crazy quilt once with gold fringe so decided to try and find some to add to the edges of this quilt . Found some 3 " fringePosted by Club Sew in Lincoln was fun to go to yesterday . I had planned on attending the 1 : 30 pm session but since I was wide awake at 5 : 30 am I decided to just get ready and attend the 9 : 30 am one instead . It is almost a 2 hour drive to Lincoln from my house so had to be on the road by 7 : 30 am to be on time . The gals presenting were from a small group that got together after Ricki Timms presentation last August in Omaha . They all did Convergence quilts and now are all working on quilts with a Coneflower theme . They all told how they accomplished the different things on each quilt and how they each attacked the project from a little different way . Learned how to put a facing on a quilt and may try that some time on one of my miniatures . The quilts were all beautiful . I did purchase some more bobbins and the Free Motion Couching foot ( no . 43 ) and a couple of spools of Bottom Line thread . Am anxious to try the couching foot as the yarn or cord comes through the hole as it is stitched so it can be all attached with a straight stitch . Looked pretty cool on the Bernina web video http : / / tiny . cc / Berninafoot43 so decided that could be something I might use . The magnifier lenses I want to get had not arrived at the store yet so will have to wait a bit for them . I pulled one of the post cards I had made some time ago and finished it to give to my mother instead of a regular birthday card . She had admired it once when I was showing her some of the ones I had made so decided she should get it . I have learned after putting the backs on some right after I made them I had more trouble personalizing them . I like to print some poem or message onto cardstock using pretty fonts , etc . This saves me from mispelling a word or messing up the back somehow . Now I just do the front of the card then wait until I know who I am going to give it to before I finish the back . Since I am going to hand deliver this to her with her gift I printed the words out centered on card stock that are appropriate to her and maybe the card too . I attached it to the back Posted by I got the entire outside border on that mystery quilt marked yesterday afternoon . It wasn 't hard just time consuming . I used my light box set up and away I went . This is the first time I used the Fons and Porter mechanical marking pencil . I used the dark lead and it sure marked nice . The pencil has an eraser on the end and it seems to take the marks off ok , at least my test on a scrap of fabric came off . Even with that I tried to mark with a light hand . Will let you know later if the marks came off easy or not . Today I have not done any quilting as the sweet corn was ready to be picked and prepared for the freezer . John helped me pick and shuck it but it was my job to get it all blanched , cooled , cut off the cob , and bagged . I finished about 5 : 00 pm and am pooped ! I sure am glad to have it all in the freezer now - all 49 bags . I don 't have my kitchen cleaned up yet but needed a break from standing . I do lay a couple of layers newsprint on the floor and counter to catch most of the errant kernels and mess . I get end rolls from the newspaper office - they give it away . Do need to pick it all up and get my dirty pans , etc . in the dishwasher yet too . Since I didn 't do anything new to show I photographed a couple of miniature quilts I made a few years ago . These hang on walls in my home . This first one is called " Not Quite a Charm " and is hand pieced in the English Paper Piecing method over papers . The small leaf border is machine appliqued with the invisible thread . The quilt is hand quilted . Have included a close up of one corner with a ruler in the photo to help with the dimensions - it is 10 " x 11 " . This next quilt is 18 " square and is all machine pieced , machine appliqued and hand quilted . I call it " Nebraska Quasars " . I quilted using dark thread on the light fabrics and light thread on the dark fabrics . I go to Lincoln tomorrow for the first Club Sew meeting at my Bernina Dealer 's store - was given a yr . free with the purchase of my 730 so want to take advantage of it and attend as many as I can . Think there is a diPosted by Today I have had a lot of time to myself without interruptions - John had to be gone for the day so was not popping in and out of the house all day like usual . Was nice not to have to make dinner too as I just warmed up a few leftovers and ate quickly so I could get back to work . Have spent the entire day drawing and figuring out what design I want to quilt in the borders of my mystery quilt . I have a photo of the quilt after I got the applique done on it in my July 3 post . Thought I would tell you how I design and transfer my quilting designs . I have rigged up a light box using my Horn air lift sewing table . First I have to remove the sewing machine , then place a large piece of Plexiglas over the opening . I put a florescent light fixture on the air lift shelf ( where my machine usually sits . ) The light was an inexpensive one we had used one time at another house under a desk upper shelf to illuminate the desk . It turns on and off with a switch on the light . This first photo is what it looks like ready to use . This next photo shows a hand drawn vine with leaves and berries that at one time I was going to applique throughout the pieced quilt but changed my mind and did leaves and berries in circles instead . This vine was too wide for my border as it was , so laid my border paper ( just taped copy paper together ) with my registration marks and traced different leaves and berries in different spots after I drew the center vine . I sometimes flipped the tracing paper design over to change the leaf to it 's mirror image . This is a view of the short side border all drawn . I draw in pencil then when I am satisfied I go over the design with a marker . I used this short side diagram to make the long side adding more leaves and berries where needed as each section was just a little longer than the sections on the short side . Here are the two borders ready to use with the light box and transfer them to the borders of the quilt . I am going to have to make a little adjustment in the corners with one berry as it 's stem is just a little Posted by I have not gotten to my sewing machine since I have been home from convention and am anxious to get started on anything right now just to be able to sew . This week has been busy with other things . Had lunch with two friends yesterday and we had a mini - show and tell which makes me want to sew even more . They showed all the things they had done recently and I didn 't have much - just what I did in class in convention and the challenge quilts from NSQG and our guild . We had our first sweet corn yesterday - YUM ! It is always such a treat and I can 't wait for it to be ready each year . Of course I make a pig out of myself the first few times too . I imagine I will be preparing the sweet corn for the freezer some time soon too so no sewing then either . Decided to photograph some other miniature quilts I have made in the past . This first one I call " Island Treasure . " It is paper pieced , hand quilted and finished in 2002 . I included a close up shot of the quilting in the second photo . This mini won the miniature quilt category at the State Fair in 2002 . The next one is made from batik fabric with frogs - I beaded one and made it into a small wall hanging in 2005 . The last quilt " Woven Gems " is one I made for a doll bed this past year . It doesn 't look like it but it was one of the hardest miniatures I have ever done . Getting the 9 patches to look square then to match them to the snowball block was really difficult . Still not perfect but as good as I could do . These last two were machine quilted . I just finished entering quilts for the Nebraska State Fair and entered " Woven Gems " in the Doll Quilt category . Don 't expect to do real well this year as all three that I entered have some problem or other . The other two entered are the " Morning Star Over The Pine Ridge " and the " Three Flowers " , both are posted on earlier posts . Lynn

April 14 , 2011 >> 109 CommentsHave you seen it , the viral video of a " guilty " dog ? A yellow lab sits hunched in a corner while his owner asks if he 's the one who got into the bag of kitty treats . The dog turns his head away , squints his eyes ( not in a happy way I would argue ) and after considerable prompting ( or pressure ) , looks " guilty . " Except , the " guilty " look is actually a perfect example of what is called a " submissive grin , " used to appease another higher status individual . Most biologists call this an example of " active submission , " in which an animal is attempting to increase the distance between it and another member of its social unit . ( Versus " passive submission " which promotes a decrease in distance ; for example , lying down and exposing the anal / genital regions . ) I know that " submission " is not a popular term at the moment , but whether you call it appeasement or submission , surely it 's clear that the dog 's expression has nothing to do with guilt . ( I first capitalized " nothing " but then changed it because it looked like I was yelling . But okay , honestly , I was . ) Is it just me ? Am I just being finicky , but I can 't even watch this video to the end . Have you seen it ? I 'm so curious to hear what you think . Here it is : MEANWHILE , back on the farm : Spring ! I have to cherish it in small , tiny moments , but they are exquisite ones . I can 't find the words to express what it feels like to see color after a long winter of black , brown and white . And Spot had her lamb , a beautiful , white ewe lamb . ( But just a single ? Jeez , Spot , you are fat as a tick ! I was sure there were at least 2 in there , and now I see you 're just fat ! ) Jeff Line says April 14 , 2011 at 12 : 37 pm I looked carefully and the dog sent to the kennel had no thumbs . I blame the primate with the thumbs for the consumption of the high value treats . The video makes me so uncomfortable I can 't start to parse the messages the dog is sending . I 'm guessing there has been some P + training in that dog 's life . Kat says April 14 , 2011 at 12 : 43 pm I saw this video awhile back and was frankly disgusted that the owner was such a bully - I can 't think of any other way to describe his pressuring the dog until he got the " guilty " look . I 'd feel horrible if Ranger ever looked at me that way , I certainly wouldn 't be documenting it and posting it for the world to look at . Sometimes the ignorance of people astounds me . Eileen Anderson says April 14 , 2011 at 12 : 54 pm Following up to my own post - sorry . I should have mentioned that the rebuttal video also is very hard to watch , since we see not one but two dogs reacting miserably to scolding or threatening tones . But at least it attempts to get the message across about the behavior . Emily in IL says April 14 , 2011 at 1 : 08 pm I had only heard about that video - but without knowing that dogs specific behaviors , I can say that I wouldn 't want to be the one getting closer to him . Sure , there 's no growling , but you can tell that that grimmace is NOT a happy one … I wonder how long it 's going to take for some numbskull to get hurt trying to duplicate this ? jan says April 14 , 2011 at 1 : 52 pm I can 't watch it to the end either . My alpha Poodle is incapable of guilt even if I know she was the one who did it . Whatever she does , she has thought through and there is no reason for guilt . After all , I was the one who left the trash sack ( or whatever ) out . Another dog will look guilty for things that happened even before she came to live with us . Amy says April 14 , 2011 at 1 : 58 pm You don 't want to finish it . The guy sends the " guilty " dog to it 's kennel for punishment . I 'd bet the dog really dosen 't even know why at this point . Dena ( Izzee 's Mom ) says April 14 , 2011 at 2 : 38 pm That poor lab . His reaction gives me the impression that he is highly distressed at his owner 's confusing behavior . And he looks so GLAD to get out of the room as soon as his owner backs off . Dan says April 14 , 2011 at 2 : 49 pm I 'm 100 % with you - I cringed while watching this video . It never ceases to amaze me how readily people misinterpret the clear signals dogs give us . Sure , it takes a little effort to learn their body language , but it 's practically essential to owning and raising a dog . It 's like having a child who 's deaf and never bothering to learn sign language . Craig McDowell says April 14 , 2011 at 2 : 51 pm I saw this video a few weeks ago and thought it was terrible . I just watched it again and was slightly less disturbed this time since I was ready for it . But obviously the dog is distressed and it 's sad that the person that made the video is either unaware or unconcerned with what they are doing to their dog . carla karr says April 14 , 2011 at 2 : 56 pm I saw that video on TV and it broke my heart . It 's video 's like this that perpetuate a lot of the myths out there about how dogs behave and feel . I especially got upset when I heard the audience laughing at that poor soul . As I said , it broke my heart . michelle says April 14 , 2011 at 3 : 09 pm I haven 't seen the whole thing . It made me uncomfortable . I know sometimes dog body language is so subtle its hard to catch unless you 've been trained but this is obvious . I feel bad for that dog . Tracy says April 14 , 2011 at 4 : 10 pm Oh , I 'm so glad you brought up this video ! I saw it last week posted on Facebook and I immediately thought , " I hope Trisha comments on this at some point . " The comments posted were all " LOL " and " how cute ! " Mine was " someone is lucky they didn 't get their face bitten off . " I was so uncomfortable watching it . The guy just went ON and ON , and it seems pretty clear to me that the dog had been punished before for similar things . I did find it interesting that the other dog , the older one , did not react at all . Hm . I really don 't understand how anyone could think that was adorable . Poor Denver . Alexandra says April 14 , 2011 at 4 : 15 pm I didn 't like the video , either . It has made me really uncomfortable having to listen to various co - workers talk about how funny it is , then watch their eyes glaze over when I tried to explain dog behavior . I also felt extremely annoyed at how it 's perpetuating the myth that dogs can feel guilty over destroying something while you were gone . megan says April 14 , 2011 at 5 : 02 pm Honestly , the first time I saw this video on the news … I couldn 't believe it . My first thought was " are these people nuts ? This isn 't funny . " People don 't realize that a dog 's body language is completely different from ours . I feel for the poor dog . Then he blames the old dog for " letting it happen " . Honestly , buddy , you shouldn 't have left the treats where the dog could get them . Barbara says April 14 , 2011 at 5 : 05 pm I thought I was the only one who was uncomfortable watching this . I felt like the dog thought " oh , no I 'm being punished again . " If I did that to my dogs , because even when bad , they have never known harsh punishment , they would have looked proud and excited that I was home and not cowering . I just got a bad feeling about the video and did not find it funny . Kitt says April 14 , 2011 at 5 : 09 pm I 've learned it 's impossible to gauge who is guilty after the fact unless you have more evidence than just a guilty look . ( The disappearing bread dough incident being a prime example . ) Some dogs just don 't care , and others care too much , no matter what the circumstances . Louise Kerr says April 14 , 2011 at 5 : 15 pm I love the internet , youtube , facebook are great for a behaviourist who lives in Australia and gets to communciate daily with overseas colleagues BUT ……… I dispare at the animal related material that gets posted and ends up on main stream media totally misunderstood . I have no idea how we get the right message out there with all that gets said by people who have no traning . I say things like this dog wasn 't acting guility it was submission and get howled down because the bulk of joe public and our tv presenters ( morning tv hosts ) say othewise . The rest of the animal community in Australia also says nothing , including those who do know . Makes me want to chose another career sometimes . Regards Louise Kerr Thanks for the follow up pic , btw . Crocus ? I planted some crocus about 10 years ago … some of them still come up . I don 't know what it is , but there certainly is something that makes me feel so renewed every year when I see them . I 'm going to have to plant more … . . many , many more . Dagmar says April 14 , 2011 at 5 : 52 pm That was sickening . My dogs are ecstatic when I come home , not cringing . If they 'd gotten into anything , it would be MY fault for making it available to them . And going to their kennel is NEVER a punishment ! Although that poor dog probably is happy to go to her refuge & safe place to get away from this unfathomable human . cheyenne mcafee says April 14 , 2011 at 6 : 26 pm i found it very uncomfortable to watch . the dog was making all kinds of submissive signals and it had nothing to do with guilt . people sent it to me as something funny but i found it sad … . . trisha says April 14 , 2011 at 6 : 35 pm Heartening to read how many people are out there who can read a dog ! And … I want a dog named Smooch , and yes , the flower is a crocus and it is not possible to have too many of them . Right now I have about 150 daffodils blooming and it is but a pittance compared to what I want ! ( But don 't be greedy Trisha … . ) Denise says April 14 , 2011 at 6 : 46 pm I 'm so glad to read everyone 's response . So many people I know liked this video and I thought I was being oversensitive . This video really bothered me . The dog is clearly distressed . Nancy says April 14 , 2011 at 7 : 53 pm I wanted to yell at that owner . . " Alright , already ! ! ! ! " Couldn 't make it to the end . Wanted to put the owner in a crate ………………… . . and cover it ! Rusty says April 14 , 2011 at 8 : 59 pm This dumb video was made even dumber with the ( lonely ) piano and harmonica droning . I don 't know which I disliked more , the pea - brained human or the music . No , those are not happy dogs . The Learning Vet says April 14 , 2011 at 9 : 05 pm I guess I differ from most of the other commenters . I just saw it as an excellent example of a submissive grin and didn 't read much more into it . I occasionally see dogs in practice who do the same thing , and I don 't necessarily conclude that there 's been any kind of mistreatment . I think some dogs just display this behavior more prominently than others . Kimberly Palermo says April 15 , 2011 at 5 : 42 am I think this is a perfect example of how many pet owners express human attributes to their dogs , and it 's actually hurting the dog - owner relationship . And what irritated me even more was how Good Morning America continued to call the dog " guilty " throughout their entire piece , they 're just as guilty ( no pun intended ) of anthropomorphism as the rest of them ! I couldn 't blog about this fast enough to my clients ( pet owners ) to explain what is actually going on in the video and I 'm so happy to find that others agree with me . It 's hard enough for many dog owners to properly understand their dogs … and things like this only make it more difficult . deborah ryan says April 15 , 2011 at 6 : 05 am Sad , just Sad , poor dog . I saw the GMA interview , neither dog looked all that comfortable or happy . My first thought was another idiot video promoting incorrect information … But then again , why not use { kidnap } this video as a teaching tool , My neighbor saw the video , said " look this dog does just what Maggie does " Not . Her Maggie greets me by sitting and giving me goofy grin face and squinty eye , hard for her to contain her full body wiggles . The video of Denver did not show a happy dog , what I saw was a dog trying really hard to communicate appeasement to a bullheaded human … . Not funny . Sad . Lumi says April 15 , 2011 at 6 : 36 am I never knew how little people undertand dogs before this video came out and became so popular . My heart is a lot lighter , though , after reading all these comments . At least some people understand and care . < 3 Cara says April 15 , 2011 at 7 : 09 am Personally , I think the dog looks like he really kind of HATES his person . And it doesn 't sound like the person has all that much affection for his dogs . Sad . To me both dogs don 't seem pleased to see him approaching … I would not want to be looked like that by my dogs . One very scared and the other on the verge to react . I might be wrong … I feel sad . Barb says April 15 , 2011 at 7 : 50 am Had people send me the video . Haven 't watched it . Won 't watch it . Poor dog ! trisha says April 15 , 2011 at 9 : 10 am To Learning Vet : I do agree it 's a great example of a submissive grin , which I agree is not in itself a sign of a stressed or anxious dog , but in this case it continues on and on , and the dog makes many other signs I interpret as attempts to get the owner to either stop or go away . That 's why it makes me so uncomfortable . Usually I 've seen this expression last perhaps one second or two at most ( and usually in Labs … is that just coincidence , or do others see it often in other breeds ? I 'm not saying it never occurs in other breeds , just seem especially common in them . ) Debra says April 15 , 2011 at 9 : 27 am and the irony is the guy thinks by speaking with a soft voice that he is being kind . Also , why bother the older dog ? Certainly neither dog knows why the owner is standing over them and bullying . Linda Murphy says April 15 , 2011 at 9 : 31 am I started to watch the video and it upset me . I argued with people on facebook that this has nothing to do with guilt and the only guilty party is the @ # $ % ! ! filming and talking . I would be upset if I ever caused this reaction in my dog . Julie says April 15 , 2011 at 10 : 34 am I felt bad for the dog personally . Kind of like he was being bullied or something . I don 't want to say the guy abuses his dogs or treats them poorly . We don 't know this to be true , but I would think that the tone of voice he 's using is not one the dog appreciates or is comfortable with . Alexandra says April 15 , 2011 at 10 : 37 am Trisha , Labs , in my experience , are often * really * soft dogs and will wilt at even a slight sign of displeasure from their owner . I 'm talking pet and show lines , not field trial lines that are de facto bred to tolerate e - collar use . Even though the owner isn 't really yelling or anything severe by human standards , the dog is so clearly uncomfortable for a long time . I think the older dog is watching that guy warily , but just isn 't as sensitive as the Lab , or she 'd have been offering appeasement behaviors as well . I don 't know that being so soft is so much a " Lab thing " as it seems to be characteristic of any very biddable dog who is also not status seeking and pet Labs tend to exemplify these characteristics - it 's part of what makes them so popular in my opinion . Michy says April 15 , 2011 at 11 : 14 am Hmm , I used to think our dog looked guilty when we got home and found ripped up books or shoes . Of course , I was like 12 years old then . And didn 't have a clue about stuff like dog body language , since we 'd only had cats until then . The dogs I have now are rescues or adopted from shelters , and at least two of them went though some kind of abuse , another was awfully headshy , but no idea of his history , and the last is just a soft dog , so if I 'm seeing looks like that from these dogs , then I 'm doing something SUPER wrong . As far as I 'm concerned , anything that happens when I 'm not in the room with them is my fault for not making sure it was dog - proof , and therefore I can 't get mad at them at all . Yes I 've come home more than once to an incredible mess of garbage strewn about , but we just laugh and pick it up . And even though dogs can 't feel things , we kinda like to think they are a tiny bit proud of how ' smart ' they are to get all the garbage out of the can for us to see . Haha . Cassie says April 15 , 2011 at 12 : 47 pm Did anyone else notice that the golden was doing cheek poofs when she was breathing ? She may not have been in the corner acting freaked out , but she was definitly not confortable with the situation either . I 've known a few heelers and BCs , labs , a doberman , and different small breed dogs that did submissive grins - I see them at the vet clinic a lot - either combined with a nervous sit down behind the owners legs , or with otherwise exuberant happy behavior - ( Run up to me wagging and grinning ) . Andreja says April 15 , 2011 at 1 : 58 pm I also had a hard time watching video to the end , but it didn 't feel right to comment something I didn 't see . I wouldn 't conclude that this man physically punished dog 2 before , because it seems unlikely that he wouldn 't punish dog 1 as well if such were his methods - and dog 1 doesn 't look like she 's trying to avoid punishment , just looks uncomfortable . The reason dog 2 tries so had to appease him might be that he 's more sensitive , which unfortunately makes this man 's bullying even more cruel 🙁 Ellen Pepin says April 15 , 2011 at 3 : 29 pm I did watch to the end and I found the whole thing disturbing . It was if the guy was waiting for the dog to yell " I did it . " I do have one question . Even though the dog was showing teeth , that was submission ? I kept waiting for the dog to bite the guy . I think that the dog knew the man was angry and didn 't want to go in the kennel . Alina says April 15 , 2011 at 3 : 49 pm I had the same feeling about this as I do practically every shred of media that shows dogs having human thoughts and feelings : people are ignorant . Also , let 's not completely pat ourselves on the back here for thinking we 're somehow more enlightened . There are other countries in the world that see our treatment / breeding / love of dogs in the U . S . as completely and utterly baffling given the amount of people we let go hungry . Shaya says April 15 , 2011 at 4 : 19 pm I did find it quite difficult to watch and was a bit worried it would end in a dog bite . But I can also see the side of the guy who filmed the video . If you don 't know how to read dogs - and the majority of the public don 't , it would seem like she 's acting guilty . Quick tail wag , eyes averted . Denver does seem to be a pretty soft dog . We can 't see exactly how close he is but he 's probably not right on top of her and he 's not yelling . I guess I feel like people do some really awful things to dogs and completely misreading a dog and thinking it was funny seems somewhat innocent . I don 't think we 've seen enough to know anything more than he isn 't able to read his dogs particularly well . I still feel for the dog and hope that he gets some insight into how sensitive she ( ? ) is . At least a good discussion came out of this and the issue of the " guilty look " got some press coverage beyond the readers of Inside of a Dog . Gin says April 15 , 2011 at 6 : 59 pm Very hard to watch . The poor dog , it 's heart breaking . It makes you wonder how both dogs are treated when the camera is not rolling … . . Lumi says April 16 , 2011 at 6 : 47 am I just don 't understand what people are thinking . Even if the dog was expressing human kind of guilt , wouldn 't the man 's behaviour still be unacceptable ? Just picture a child in the dog 's place looking as uncomfortable as the dog in the video when a grown man approaches him going on and on in a weird voice about something the child did or did not do . Who would find that funny ? Lisa W says April 16 , 2011 at 7 : 04 am I thought the whole thing was odd and not funny . That Lab was cornered for too long . Someone did make a parody of it that is very funny , if you have seen any part of the first one . http : / / www . youtube . com / watch ? v = ZoMVe7BsKww & feature = related Aside from the fact that if I saw one of my dogs making that facial expression , I would stand back and try to see what was causing it , the whole notion of guilt reminded me of a funny incident that happened many years ago . We lived in a house that had the main bath off the living room . Being conservation minded , I did not always flush after peeing ( don 't worry , this isn 't a pee story ) . Every once in a while , when I came out of the shower , there would be the used toilet paper sitting on the rug in front of our Golden 's dog bed . I never scolded her , but was a little disgusted in what I assumed was an odd and unsightly habit she was developing . ( I know I should have closed the lid , but didn 't always remember . ) Well , one day , I came out of the shower just in time to see our other dog , a Shepherd mix , drop the piece of used toilet paper right in front of the Golden who was snoozing on her bed ! I laughed so hard at the thought of the Shepherd trying to " frame " the Golden , I startled both dogs . That image was what got me to finally close the toilet lid . AnneJ says April 16 , 2011 at 8 : 21 am I 'm having a hard time coming up with something sensible to say . The video was disturbing . The guy made me want to run and hide as well as the dog . But the dog was not about to bite him , the grinning is a submissive gesture . I 've seen dogs give the grin when they are doing full body wags and happy to see someone , or if they think they are in trouble and are appeasing , or if you 're trying to get them to do something they don 't like . My dog Ben grinned at me the other day when he thought I was going to give him a bath . Jenn Michaelis says April 16 , 2011 at 10 : 22 am I have seen two viral " guilty " dog videos , the poodle one too . This video is awful I think and the man who made it obviously has no idea how to read his dogs ' body language . Ugh . Disgusting . Candace Stuart says April 16 , 2011 at 10 : 47 am I came across the video a while ago and stopped midway . The " guilty face " reminded me of an incident at the Humane Society of Huron Valley , where I volunteer . Years ago we had a stray shepherd mix that bared its teeth at a volunteer while in the play yard . She was new , and it scared her so that she started screaming and crying . That agitated the dog , which frightened her even more . The behavior director later took the dog to the play yard . With some experimentation she could tell that the dog had been trained to " smile " when playing fetch . It was not a sign of agression to a trained eye , but most people who come to shelters to adopt - even experienced owners - are not as adept at reading dog behavior . Certainly the volunteer lacked what I call dog etiquette and the director calls kennel sense . She saw teeth and not the myriad other visual cues of a dog at play . I wish owners would consider how such tricks can be misinterpreted by someone who doesn 't know the pet , though . In this case , it was correctly understood and noted in the dog 's records but I could imagine a scenario with a different ending . I watched the video through the end this time . It seems to be a story about two dogs who behave well and a human who doesn 't . Beth says April 16 , 2011 at 1 : 51 pm Ugh . I forced myself to watch the whole thing , but this is very uncomfortable to see . Three things that instantly come to mind upon seeing it : 2 ) There 's not even any indication that the submitting dog was the one who ate the treats . My more submissive Corgi girl will lay her ears back , lower her posture slightly , and waggle her backend at a slightly deeper voice or raised eyebrow . My bossy male rarely submits , even if he 's done something " wrong . " 3 ) And to add insult to injury , he then sends the poor dog to his crate as a punishment . Nothing like making the dog see his crate as a stressful place to make all future training / confining that much harder . Now , I don 't necessarily agree with the implication of some commenters that the dog 's extreme appeasement indicates it is mistreated in other ways ; some soft dog will just grovel at a hard look . But the man does go on much too long . I have , on one occasion , scolded my very bossy dog until he showed some appeasement . The crime in question was chronic shoe - and - grament stealing , and I finally caught him red - handed and sort of growled at him til he looked away . The second he looked away I backed off , though . He 's a bossy but sensitive dog and the sort of treatment in this video would ruin him . This is a dog who , in adolescence , would stand still and bark at me , ears forward , instead of moving back from a body block . Still , he 's very responsive and while I don 't believe the occasional correction is harmful to a happy - go - lucky dog , I do think that pressuring them for more than a minute after they have submitted can be harmful to their psyches . GK says April 16 , 2011 at 1 : 56 pm A friend sent me the video and I was disturbed the she thought it was funny . The video made me nauseous . It was abusive and I couldn 't help but cry . I did . I cried . The dog 's body language revealed that , not only was he was accustomed to be treated poorly , he was anticipating being hit or otherwise physically abused . I did manage to watch the video to the end and was very sad to see the poor dog slink away . This man is a bully who enjoys ' tricks ' like this regularly and gets a thrill by intimidating someone who can 't defend themselves . em says April 16 , 2011 at 5 : 59 pm I agree with so many of the other posters . It would break my heart to see one of my dogs look at me this way . Some dogs really are very soft - I had a GSP mix who would drop to her belly and cower at a scolding tone - despite never being physically abused , so I try not to leap to conclusions about that , but this video shows serious psychological bullying , in my view . It 's very different from the honestly funny ( I think ) reaction of a dog who knows he 's been naughty and hopes to appease his owner but who isn 't actually fearful . Otis is a very non - guilty dog , for the most part , though he has much more of a ' guilty jump ' reaction when caught in a rare act of naughtiness than he did years ago . I don 't raise my voice , he 's never been physically punished , but if I casually ask , ' Otis , what are you doing ? ' and what he 's doing is against the rules , he jumps about a mile and gives me the big eyes . No infraction , same tone , no reaction . I generally chuckle , and call him over , pet and stroke and make much of him . It helps that he is very seldom doing anything actually dangerous or destructive . I might be sharp if I am trying to interrupt a bad behavior , but once it 's over , I 've never managed to see the point in being mad at a dog . Actually , there was one incident that I could truly call a ' guilty ' reaction . After our morning walk and breakfast , Otis was in the habit of climbing onto the bed and taking a nap while I showered . He was allowed , and it was not a problem . Every day , I 'd come out of the bathroom to find him sprawled blissfully across the mattress , happy as a clam . One morning though , I came into the bedroom and he wasn 't there . I thought , " that 's odd , I know he came upstairs . He never gets up again once he 's settled . " I gave a mental shrug and started picking out clothes and getting ready . Everything seemed normal until I unwrapped the towel around my hair and tossed it onto the comforter . A POOF of down flurfed out of an eight - inch tear in thThe Learning Vet says April 16 , 2011 at 7 : 37 pm Lisa W - thanks for that link ! That did make me laugh . 🙂 Trisha - good point . I 've seen such a wide variety of breeds display this , I 'm not sure I can say in which breeds I see it " the most " . I will now have to confess something that , in light of the video and the comments its receiving , make me feel like a bad person , but when we have one of these patients walk through our doors ( for wellness checks , not if they 're sick ) , it 's not unusual for me to spend some time eliciting this behavior , usually with a " goo - goo - gah - gah " voice because we all find it so endearing . One of our favorites is a Keeshond . Or sometimes I 'll do it for the purposes of getting a good video / photo , such as the one of this JRT : http : / / www . flickr . com / photos / olatheanimalhospital / 4882812634 / I am not a dog trainer , but I have worked very hard to be the best dog owner I can be , and treasure dearly the relationship of mutual respect my dog and I have . It breaks my heart to see dogs being so completely bullied like I see in this video . Why does the average person seem to be so clueless about the non - verbal communication signs in dogs ? The other thing I have noticed is that the more ' wrong ' ( misguided , anthropomorphic , whatever ) the particular person 's interpretation of their dog 's actions are , the more emotionally charged any suggestion that it might be incorrect becomes . Is this just me too ? Both completely baffle me , and it is THAT as much as the dog 's behavior that makes me sick to my stomach watching this video . Misa says April 17 , 2011 at 8 : 39 am Another nauseating example of what some people in our culture view animals to be - objects of amusement . How else would this guy find it acceptable to broadcast this ? I , too , couldn 't watch it to the end . Donna in VA says April 17 , 2011 at 11 : 57 am I only watched the video with the sound very low . I agree both dogs wanted that person ( or camera ? ) to go away and it was sad to watch . But I wonder how much of it was a reaction to the camera and presumably bright light attached , rather than the person . Also I would NEVER corner a dog that was uncomfortable like that . I think we need to teach others the risk they are taking when they corner any dog . Leave the dog with plenty of escape options and they will probably use them . Pat Wildgen says April 17 , 2011 at 2 : 34 pm No , you idiot owner ! YOU let it happen ! And then he sends the dog to his kennel and actually thinks that dog has any idea why he is in trouble ! ! ! ! ! Terry Shackleton says April 18 , 2011 at 9 : 43 am He should be in the penalty box for leaving the cat treats where they could reach them . Talk about reinforcing unwanted behavior . How about leaving a nice juicy steak on the counter when he is home , bored and hungry ? GGGGRRRR ! ! ! ! ! Rachel Simpson says April 18 , 2011 at 9 : 43 am When I first saw this video , my thoughts were " OMG , this poor dog ! " Someone else here mentioned the other video that even appeared on " America 's Funniest Videos " or some show like it , the one where the poor dog is attacking his own foot , and I felt the same way about that one . It is so irritating to see people who own dogs ( or other animals ) and assuming what the dog is thinking or feeling . I cannot tell you how many times people have told me that their dog did something out of spite , or was totally feeling guilty about something that happened . And then they think that I 'm nuts when I tell that they are wrong , that they are anthropomorphizing , projecting what they think that their dog should be feeling at that moment . It 's very frustrating . Sarah @ Dog Separation Anxiety Cure says April 18 , 2011 at 12 : 10 pm Thank you for this post Patricia ! I thought the very same thing when I watched this video … I didn 't find it funny at all ! And of course that dog was going to react differently than the other , the tone of the person 's voice changed completely when he spoke to the second dog ! I am definitely going to share this ! Becky says April 19 , 2011 at 10 : 00 am O . K . , you 've got plenty of comments that all say a bit of what I 'm feeling … just YUK ! I recently said at a family dinner that in my younger years I honestly thought that humans were " higher up " than the animal kingdom . But oh how very WRONG I was . These creatures are so very far ahead of us humans as to be to laughable . The only thing we got goin on is language - and even that becomes questionable when you look at all the in fighting in our own country . I always think about the Bonoboes ( sp ? ) . That when they are upset with one another they HUG . Their DNA most closely matches ours . So what 's our problem , our " major malfunction " ? It seems to me that we lose sight of compassion and empathy , and live in absolute hubris of knowing " whats best " for our animal companions . In reality , they know what 's best for US ! We need to look to our animal companions for wisdom and kindness and honesty . ( And in this format , I 'm sure I 'm preaching to the choir ! ) robin says April 21 , 2011 at 3 : 32 pm you all need to lighten up , eat your granola and get over it ! ! ! being a mama to two yellow lab babies , I can assure you Denvers reaction to being scolded for eating something she should not have had , is a natural reaction , especially in Labs who love to eat , and not a reaction of fear due to abuse etc . Also by the looks of Denver , she has been into the kitty treats more than once , ( she 's a chunky looking girl ) and also a comment to Becky . If you had children would they be higher up than you ? I consider my labs my babies . I spoil them , I love them , I teach them , and yes I also scold them if they misbehave , just like any human parent would do for their human child , humans should do for their furry babies . Again people , lighten up ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! robin says April 21 , 2011 at 3 : 46 pm Oh by they way , I bought the shirt ! OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ! What a bad person , OH PLEASE ! ! ! ! ! ! ! An experiment I watched on YouTube comes to mind ( and I 'm not condoning the methods here ) … they let a dog in a room with a bowl of food . Experimenter punished the dog as soon as he started eating . Sure enough , after some tries the dog wouldn 't eat from that bowl anymore . In another setup dogs were punished after 15 seconds of eating . This time they didn 't learn to avoid the bowl . If I remember correctly they did start to slow down on their approach , but it didn 't take long before they dove right in . s says May 3 , 2011 at 9 : 41 am as the owner of a very submissive dog - that was difficult to watch because I felt badly for the dogs . Is that really a submissive grin ? I thought the lip curl would make it a bit more of a defensive move ? I thought the submissive grin ended open mouthed vs defensive , but I am confess I 'm not very schooled in dog language . t says May 27 , 2011 at 12 : 03 pm LOL Sounds like some of you need to watch videos of real dog abuse . Maybe then you 'll realize this dog is going to be just fine . He didn 't hit her , he didn 't force her into the crate , he didn 't even yell . Geeze , stop being so sensitive . ( I understand that the dog is uncomfortable and yeah , he shouldn 't have made her feel that way for something that wasn 't her fault . Again , I don 't agree with what he did and I wouldn 't ever do that to my dogs . But to those of you actually crying over this video and calling it ' severe abuse ' , seriously ? That is being waaay too dramatic . ) Melanie says July 31 , 2011 at 1 : 13 pm I 'm so with you on this … . . watching this video makes me extremely uncomfortable . What I see is a dog that is being relentlessly " pressed " and it 's doing everything it knows to convey that it is uncomfortable and " giving in " . I can 't tell you how many people have told me to watch this and they think it 's funny … . . it 's truly painful to me . People are always talking about dogs being " guilty " or mad at their owners and misbehaving . I hope some day people will stop interpreting their dog 's behavior in terms of their own experiences / behaviors . Eva D ' Amico says February 11 , 2012 at 2 : 59 pm What is that grimace all about anyways ? My dog Bailey does that every morning to my husband when he greets him - only in the morning . Never to me - and my husband certainly doesn 't ' abuse ' him though I think he is more ' alpha ' then I am . Is it a submissive gesture ? My other dog never does this - am interested in learning about this . Lilitha says September 24 , 2012 at 8 : 04 pm I just happened to see that video just the other day and it bothered me . I tried to add a comment but that guy has the comments locked so he to approve of any comments before they are allowed , and he didn 't allow mine . I suspect because he doesn 't want people explaining what is really going on . suzi says September 25 , 2012 at 9 : 57 pm Robin I agree with you . People lighten up . I have a beagle , I DON ' T leave food laying around . He pushes chairs ( we left a video cam recording to see how he got into cabinets ) jumps on them , then jumps on counters and opens the cabinets . We put child locks on them , he figured out how to scratch them off . One day Thanksgiving he took the whole turkey out of the fridge ( which had TWO childproof locks and when we got home he was laying on the floor with his little submissive grin . He also learned after we got super expensive cabinet locks to get on top of the fridge and this we found out because he could not get down . Nothing could keep him out of that kitchen , not the kiddie gates , we finally had to install a door from the dining room to the kitchen and another one from the hallway to the kitchen . Don 't blame the owner , some dogs are slick and can get to treats when they want to . BTW I am a conservation biologist , took many courses in animal behavior and this is def considered a submissive grin , sometimes seen in lower ranking african wild dogs too . I have also seen dogs that smile that way when they are happy and excited . Christie says February 23 , 2013 at 11 : 42 pm Couldn 't watch the lab . He is obviously in some kind of pain or distress . . Made me wonder if after the camera zipped rolling , the dogs got a beating or punished in some very demeaning or painful manner . HATE THAT ! But have to realize that people who aren 't as practiced as deciphering dog behavior might not be aware of the bigger picture . Astevia says July 25 , 2016 at 6 : 32 am I saw that video and right away I knew that dog was being treated the wrong way He looked scared and not happy at all . What gets me the most is how so many people found it funny and really thought the dog felt guilty . I doubt that bite was done by the dog . Dogs tear things apart with their teeth . That is an aluminum bag . That is a perfect bite . Patricia B . McConnell , PhD , CAAB is an applied animal behaviorist who has been working with , studying , and writing about dogs for over twenty - five years . She encourages your participation , believing that your voice adds greatly to its value . She enjoys reading every comment , and adds her own responses when she can .

On Monday night , I painted my nails for the first time in at least two years . I decided last week that I really wanted to paint my nails and I was hoping to paint them gray . I searched all over Portland ( well , Fred Meyer ) before finding at WinCo some " dries in a New York minute " cheapy stuff in the color I wanted . It 's called sidewalk or pavement or something . It is sidewalk - colored and I love it . It really does dry fast . But in case you don 't have that New York minute stuff , or if a New York minute isn 't fast enough , there 's a kitchen appliance that may come to your aid . From MiscellaneousIf you were ever on the fence about getting a food dehydrator , or if you 'd like to be able to dry tomatoes and blueberries and strawberries and cherries ( and make your own jerky ! which I 'm kind of afraid to do ! ) , I 'd like to tell you about another use for this wonderful appliance . While it 's drying whatever you 've placed inside its flying - saucer - like interior , its low - heat dry air radiates and if you 're not careful , will heat up or dry out anything within a few - inches radius . So , I have some great news . The food dehydrator is also an excellent nail dryer ! First of all , in case someone doing environmental scanning for Old Navy stumbles across yesterday 's post and is annoyed at my use of their image , I would like to note that I am thrilled that Old Navy is selling flares and that they were on sale up to and including this weekend , so that the jeans that were marked $ 36 . 94 were actually $ 19 . 50 and because I had a $ 10 coupon , I got them for $ 9 . 50 . Because today Portland is behaving like it 's not really August - - the high is 68 today , and I have seen it warmer here in February - - I wore my Hi - Rise Retro Flares to work today . I had an urge to pair it with a scarf wrapped around my hair , like Rhoda Morgenstern , but I resisted . These jeans are so comfortable . I have worn them for at least part of every day since I purchased them . I bought them on Saturday and wore them to opening night of the 15th Ave Hop House . Then I wore them on Sunday 's shopping excursion . Then I wore them after work yesterday to go for my evening walk . Today , they make their first appearance in the office , along with my new flats and new gray nail polish . This is the first time I have worn nail polish in at least two years . More on that topic later . I have always loved flares , and I hope they are here to stay . Boot cut just wasn 't ever enough for me . And skinny jeans , too ! I love them worn under boots ! Ellen wrote : Now I 'm trying to imagine skinny jeans going out , coming back . . . it 's too weird . I 'm sure that will happen someday , but I wish it would not . I for one am thrilled to be living in a world where flares and skinny jeans coexist . Where stonewashed denim is acceptable and so are jeans that might actually be bell bottoms . Where bright colors are okay , too ! Happy happy happy ! Elena wrote ( and yes , it is not lost on me that my two commenters have similar names . ) : Flares always annoyed me because they suck for things like hiking where the bottoms of the jeans can be in mud or water . Elena , you are right . On that note , I would like to point out that flare jeans , as I learned the hard way on Sunday 's shopping Posted by Flares were popular for most of my fashion - conscious years . I believe I was in sixth grade when they were first considered in style . This was the same year that " the Rachel " hairstyle was cool . Well , flared jeans outlived the Rachel and claw / butterfly hairclips that were so fashionable in 1996 , and their heyday continued through my middle school years , into and to the end of my high school years , and even well into my college years - - both times I went to college . It was not until I was near the completion of my second degree that flares gave way to skinny jeans . I took advantage of that denim sale and a $ 10 coupon and I bought a pair of " new " flares this weekend . These were new - old flares . Old Navy calls them , " Hi - Rise Retro Flare Jeans . " They are probably not far from bell bottoms . But I have to note that I have now lived to see something come into style , be REALLY REALLY in style , go out , and come back again . I think this is a sign of getting old . Moreso than learning to drive a car , or renting one 's first apartment , or even working at one 's first full - time job or graduating with an advanced degree or marriage or kids or owning a home , it is when you have lived to see ( and wear ) a type of clothing come into , go out of , and come back into style , that you are truly an adult . After all that complaining about the heat , it seems that tomorrow the weather will return to Portland summer cool temperatures . The high for Wednesday is only 68 , and it will be under 80 most of the week . I am not complaining ! Especially as long as it stays sunny . Despite all of the " opinions " I have been writing lately , it has been a happy summer break . I would like to note that my summer vacation only started about a week and a half ago , so that 's what I am talking about . Since turning in my last assignment , I have been able to spend time on the things I like . I have been able to at least partially organize my office - you can now move around in it , and if you can 't find something , there are rationally - thrown - together piles in which you can look . ( A pile of clothing , a pile of things to sew , a pile of papers , a few boxes of stuff that are organized ( such as box of wires ) , and a few boxes of " unsorted stuff that isn 't papers or clothing or office supplies or belongs in the kitchen or bathroom . " I have had time to read on the bus , even though some days my brain is so tired that all I can comprehend are cookbooks and my free magazines from Oregon 's tourism board ( or whatever they call it . ) Since summer classes ended , I have been working five days a week and starting earlier , which means I am on a different bus route . My morning bus driver is so friendly , I wrote a note to TriMet to tell them about it . It 's not just that it 's nice to have someone say , " Good morning " to you , it 's that it 's nice to hear that person be sincerely friendly to other people . I think it puts most of the passengers in a good mood , which makes the ride more enjoyable for all of us . Going to work an hour earlier wouldn 't usually make me tired , if I hadn 't been working on projects so much when I got home . Sometimes , my new roommate and I undertake organization or cleaning projects , assembling things from IKEA and then filling them with the contents of our box city . Other times , I or we are spending a lot of time cooking , but then we have leftovers later in the week . Other other times , we are canning and preserving . We have canned marionberry salsa , marionberry chipotle sauce , sour cherry pickles , and tomato salsa . I keep walking away from the computer in the middle of typing this . Since I started writing , I Posted by is what Portland is right now . HOT . And for Portland , that is not a common state . What 's more uncommon , and what 's made the heat somewhat unpleasant , is that it 's muggy . I thought I was losing my mind . Or that perhaps so many summer weeks below 80 degrees had turned me into a baby , had made me lose my East Coast tolerance for heat . You see , typically Portland summers are a pleasant 75 - 83 with occasional 90 's and a very brief spell in the 100 's , but typically Portland summers are also our dry season , without humidity and therefore such high temperatures are tolerable . The one note I will make , however , is that the sun is very intense in a dry climate . I don 't know what it is , but in very sunny places on summer days , even when it is not quite 80 degrees , I feel like I am baking , like the sun is chasing me , and because I am not used to dry heat , I get very dehydrated . The past few days , it has been in the upper 80 's , which would be miserable in humid New Jersey , where I 've always felt that once you hit a certain threshold temperature , like 86 , it was all the same . 86 , 96 , and 106 in New Jersey are just hot , sticky , and uncomfortable . Typically , I wouldn 't even think that the upper 80 's were hot in Portland , not unless I was in a car oven or in a place with a lot of hot , black pavement and not a lot of trees . I could not figure out why I have been so hot . I thought perhaps our apartment just has that oven effect like a car would have . Or that maybe it 's because I wait for my bus in the afternoons on a bench in the middle of some highway interchanges , so there is a lot of blacktop and not a lot of shade . I drink water constantly , but every day headaches have plagued me and I am starting to think it is from dehydration . A friend inquired yesterday , was it just her ? had she become intolerant to the heat ? and my boyfriend responded , " It 's been muggy , too . " Muggy ! The quality that makes upper 80 's heat unpleasant or even unbearable . Of course ! The three of us all said YEAH ! IT HAS BEEN MUGGY . It was as though I had been refusing tPosted by Last week , Ellen commented on my post about cooking Rocky Mountain yak oysters . She wrote , " As always I love your cooking posts the best . " Ellen has expressed such sentiments before , but I always forget . My posts about cooking , especially when they don 't include a silly mishap , are usually my filler posts . When I have nothing else to write about , or only things to write about that will take more time than I have , the one creative outlet to which I consistently have access , is cooking , and so I default to writing about that . It is nice to know that readers like those at all , especially " the best " ! Also , Ellen , I enjoy all of your posts , and it makes me happy , when I look at my blog statistics , and I see that one reader from Macedonia and I know who exactly who it is . Between the Facebook comments , blog comments , and e - mails , you have all convinced me that while the skins of tomatoes will not poison anyone , it 's better not to include them in my canning , and it 's not even a big deal to remove them ( as my handsome roommate had me believe . ) That 's all I have to say for today . I pose this question to the blogging world . I got a great deal on a big box of tomatoes at the market on Saturday , and I want to preserve some of them before their delicious peak - ripeness caves to rot and mold . I would love to can them as plain old summer tomatoes , not mask their delicious flavor with spices to turn them into salsa or something like that . But all of the recipes , and people we know , say that one must must MUST peel the tomatoes to can them . Why ? All I can find is that is has something to do with texture . I never peel or seed tomatoes when I am told to do so . I don 't see the point . I like them . But before we go messing with this , I wanted to make sure that canned tomato skins don 't do something horrible like grow a hateful soul and taint the cans with the taste of rotten eggs , or give everyone Zombie Botulism . What do you think , bloggers and canners ? The title is today 's prompt from NaBloPoMo . My answer is Anne Shirley and an Indian curry ( mild , with hot sauce on the side , for the late nineteenth century palate ) with all the appropriate first courses and sides . Because it would blow her mind , and then she 'd have a really great way of describing it . I 'd love to hear her " poetical " description of dal . So , it turns out that Trader Joe 's refused to sign the agreement , but that doesn 't mean it 's supporting unethical tomato growers . They released a statement which seems perfectly reasonable to me , explaining what they actually do in terms of tomato purchases , and why they will not sign an agreement that they describe as , " overreaching , ambiguous and improper . " Thank you for your transparency , Trader Joe 's ! ( I think I might change my " rant " label to just " opinion . " ) I was originally planning to continue to write about how there is no cruelty - free diet , because even in the production of plant - based foods , animals die . We can only do our best . We can 't be perfect . More importantly and more immediately , there 's cruelty in our diets from the vegetables we eat that I find difficult to ignore , and that 's cruelty to humans . I have a vague anxiety whenever I consider buying conventional tomatoes from Mexico in the wintertime , ever since I read The Death of Ramon Gonzalez by Angus Wright for an ecology class in college . I recall either from the book or from the class discussions that followed , hearing that the tomato fields of California aren 't that much better . Laws exist in the United States , but they are broken and not enforced . I hadn 't thought much about Florida . I listen to The Splendid Table when I clean or cook , when I want background noise that is calm and pleasant and not going to cause me anxiety like the news might . However , I had to stop listening in the middle of this week 's podcast because of the first topic - - winter tomatoes from Florida . At first , I was cleaning , thinking , " Yeah , I know , cardboard , blah blah blah . " Then came the discussion of pesticides . Not exactly pleasant or calming , but I thought I knew what I was going to hear . And then I heard the account of three pregnant women who were forced to work in the fields , where laws regarding pesticides and human workers are consistently broken , or they would lose their homes . All three women gave birth to children with awful birth defects ; one died . That 's the real cost of winter tomatoes . While the cost of organic vegetables seems outrageous , I think that human cost is what 's really outrageous . But let 's be realistic . Most people can not pay that former outrageous price . They are stuck with the latter . And this doesn 't just come up with respect to cardboard - tasting fresh tomatoes in winter , something we can arguably live without . The circumstances are not always identical , but choices between cash costs and ethical cosPosted by I intend to write a short post today . I 'm writing now , before I start my weekend chores , because if I wait too long I might forget and ruin the whole NaBloPoMo thing , and because I 've noticed from monitoring my pageviews that no one really reads blogs that much on the weekend . Even though that 's when I have the most time to write something lengthy ( and that tends to be when I catch up on blogs ) , it 's when people have better things to do . In fact , so do I . Now that school is really over for the summer ( coinciding with back - to - school sales and everyone everywhere except Portland writing about how " summer is over " ) I have hikes to take and bread to bake and piles of junk to unmake . ( Those first two rhymes were unintentional , but then when I noticed they rhymed , I thought , " instead of ' crap to unpack , ' why not keep the whimsy going ? " I intended to just tell you , sticking with the fiction theme of NaBloPoMo for this month , about the book I finished reading on the bus yesterday . But I got some comments on yesterday 's post , and I want to address those , too . And talk more about the last book I read . ( Which was actually nonfiction . ) One friend commented that she is eating more vegetarian lately , which I did not know . She wrote , " I think I worry most about my meal living a miserable life ; I 'd almost be happier eating an animal that enjoyed its life ! " The " almost " is what got me thinking . Most people don 't say that ; most people just preach about the wonders of eating happy animals . Which brings up question that not many people ask . Except maybe my mother , who won 't buy meat at the farmers ' market because they always include photographs of the happy little cute piglets and how can you buy bacon when you are looking that cute little piglet in the face ! ? Pine Mountain Ranch does not do any such thing . It 's just coolers and text . GOOD . That question is , " If the animal is so happy , why is it humane to slaughter and eat it ? " Why not just leave it alone ? It 's worth interjecting right here that there is no cruelty - free way to eat and tPosted by Today 's NaBloPoMo prompt is , " Do you like paper books or e - readers ? " My answer is , " Yes ! " It was the answer to yesterday 's prompt that led to the incident about which I am going to write today . Yesterday 's prompt was , " What was the last book you read ? " and my answer was The Dirty Life by Kristin Kimball . As I mentioned yesterday , Kimball 's writings on fresh , local food , and the at times joyous preparation of it , had me dreamily picking up bundles and bags of all kinds of unplanned things at three farmers ' markets last weekend . I erroneously wrote yesterday that we 'd made a stir fry with yam leaves . I did buy yam leaves , but I completely forgot to use them in the stir fry . What we actually stir - fried the other night was half a bunch of lamb 's quarters that I 'd forgotten I 'd bought . When I was searching for greens to complement the purslane in the fattoush I was making last night , I thought , " It 's weird that these yam leaves have flower buds on them that kind of look more like amaranth flowers than anything else . " And then I realized there was another , larger bundle of greens at the bottom of the crisper drawer , hiding under the celery . Oops . I told you that I 'd purchased two three letter words that begin with " y - a " at the farmers ' market that weekend . Yam leaves ( which we still haven 't eaten ) and the second was to be a surprise . Pine Mountain Ranch has a table at our local farmers market . It was from them that I bought the chicken about which I raved back in the fall . They also sell beef and meat from a variety of other animals such as bison and yak . In addition to waxing poetic on the pleasures of eating pasture - raised meat , Kristin Kimball also writes , in a short section of The Dirty Life , about her forays into nose - to - tail cookery , making it sound more pleasant than you 'd expect . She writes particularly complimentary things about Rocky Mountain oysters made at home . Her description of that experience made it sound , to someone who has had that dish at a restaurant only , kind of like an appealing adventure . It was wiPosted by Today 's prompt is , " What was the last book you read ? " Funny you should ask that , NaBloPoMo , because that is relevant to what I planned to write about this week . The last book I read was The Dirty Life by Kristin Kimball , a memoir by a city - girl - turned - farmer ( to oversimplify things ) about her first year with her now husband , starting a community - supported full food farm in upstate New York . The book describes , along with the trials and tribulations of farming in the 21st century , the wealth of delicious food that comes with a lifestyle that in all other respects would be viewed as anything but wealthy , and the accompanying joy the preparation of that food brings . These descriptions are probably what inspired my crazy farmers market shopping spree last weekend . We have been enjoying the benefits ( and work ! ) from that all week . In some ways , we are rushing to prepare it all before it goes bad . With farmers market produce , you never know if it 's going to last a really really really long time , because it 's so fresh , or if it 's going to go bad in a day , because it is some special variety that maybe tastes great but doesn 't last long and also it was picked at the peak of ripeness and then rode in a truck and then sat in the hot sun and then bounced around in my market bag all the way home . At least , this is my experience . The book made the preparation of such food for someone you love seem like such a joyous act . It made me want to do that very thing ! So I bought some grass - fed steak . More on that later . When I go to these markets , I also impulsively purchase things I 've never heard of before , especially if they are only $ 2 , whether the farmer tells me it 's something wonderful and special or even if the farmer ( who is really a hired market helper ) tells me , " I have no idea if that 's any good . I 've never had it before . " In that category this week , I have two kinds of greens - - bietola , an Italian green , and yam leaves , about which all I currently know is , " Use them in stir fries . " Last night we had the yam leaves . They were gPosted by Earlier this month , I wrote about and posted my grandmere 's recipe for clafoutis . The translated version I had was from my mother , and it was incomplete . My mother wrote to include the previously omitted details , and now I am sharing them with you . Below is the revised Recette de Clafoutis : CLAFOUTI - MIMA ' s10 TBSP FLOUR8 TBSP SUGAR6 TBSP MILK4 TSP OIL2 - 3 EGGS1 TBSPBAKING POWDERVANILLAAnd according to Grandmere the most important ingredient , a pinch of salt ! MIX AND ADD FRUIT . COOK IN A PIE PLATE AT I don 't have that . oops . Temp 450 degrees for 15 mins and then 325 for 45 mins to 1 hour or when cooked . If you cannot stomach the pits of cherries , other fruit works well in this recipe . My mother recommends pears . Peaches also work . Also , I spoke too soon about the bus . Perhaps not my recent praise of TriMet , but my evaluation of my new bus route and driver was premature . The same driver took me home yesterday , and he was neither as friendly or as calm as he 'd been the day before . He scrutinized my bus pass ( which bus drivers never do ; you could show them a credit card or a post it note and they 'd probably still let you on ) and then , as I walked to my seat , called me back so he could see it AGAIN . Dude , you saw it yesterday ! It wasn 't a problem yesterday , was it ? And I know I made myself memorable , because I have big hair and crazy boots , I was running , and I am the only person at this stop ! After that , the driver who had such steadiness and serenity the previous afternoon became possessed by a fever of brake slamming . Even after the passenger who reeked of his own urine left the seat next to me and the bus altogether , I felt dangerously nauseous due to the the constant jerky brake - slamming . I never get carsick . Very little reading of months - old Newsweek got accomplished during that bus ride . Today 's prompt is : Talk about your favourite bookstore . I wish I had a good answer for this . I just don 't have one . The closest thing I have to a favorite bookstore is the Multnomah County Library . Of course , like any book - loving PortlanPosted by 1 . NaBloPoMo Daily Prompt Today 's prompt is : Do you prefer to own books or borrow them from a friend or the library ? My answer is that of those three things , I least prefer to borrow books from a friend . I am too afraid of damaging them . Why I do not have this fear when it comes to library books ( other than the fact that those books are usually hardcover and plastic - wrapped ) is a mystery . Maybe it 's because I can hide behind the semi - anonymity of a many - digit library card number . I don 't mind owning books , especially e - books , but because I have moved so much in the last two years , I try not to acquire too much bulky stuff . 2 . More Love for TriMet My new hours at work have me taking the bus at different times . So far , the morning and afternoon bus drivers are friendly and polite . No break - slamming pedestrian - narrowly - missing crazies . You know what I 'm talking about , if you 've ever taken TriMet ( and probably other city buses will give you the same experience . ) The bus drivers that are drunk with their newfound power and seem to relish barking at riders to get behind the yellow line , if they take too long fumbling for their bus fare ; and shaking the head , with a smile , as they close the door in the face of a running would - be passenger . The ones that , if you pull the yellow cord too late , say , " Sorry , I can 't turn back time ! " Um . . . anyway . None of those on my route . The nice thing about the earlier times , too , is that there are seats on the bus , both ways , so I can read my outdated Newsweeks . I just read an article about how Osama bin Laden was still at large . 3 . More Nonfiction Another of my odd choices of bus time reading is travel magazines . Except not the ones you pay for . The free ones that some Oregon agency puts together and has out at rest areas . I always have collected them ( recycling them at appropriate times , not hoarding them ) and on our last Southern Oregon Adventure ( to be documented in full shortly ) , I actually read some of them and they came in handy . That was how we learned about things to do in and aroPosted by Today 's NaBloPoMo prompt is , " What is your favourite place to read ? " ( Yes , it 's spelled the British way . ) I had to think about this , because lately I grab my time to read in short bursts . I read before I fall asleep at night . Sometimes , I read on my lunch break , so the place would be the break room . Neither of these are my favorite , but are rather the places I read out of necessity . I 'd love to say that I read in the park , and provide both a poetic description and sunlit , green photos of that park , but it doesn 't exist . I can 't recall the last time I read in a park . Unless the Park Blocks at PSU count . And then usually I decide it 's quiet and less filled with panhandlers to just go inside the Student Union Building . My favorite place , at least for now , to grab a few minutes to read a few pages in between tasks and places , is the bus . For the first three months of my job , I drove . It didn 't occur to me to take the bus , because the only bus stops near work , of which I was aware , were for lines that don 't run within a mile of my house , or they were on the other side of a highway that would be treacherous , if not impossible , to cross . Then my car started stalling . First , it stalled downtown , near campus , when I was trying to find a parking spot . I kept driving it . My worst nightmare , I told everyone , was that it would stall on the upper level of the Marquam Bridge in Friday rush hour , in the traffic backup where people are entering the freeway from I - 84 at the same time other people are trying to exit I - 5 for I - 84 . And then someone would rear - end my car and it would go flying over the guard rail and into the Willamette River . And then all of that happened , except the car accident . It stalled on that bridge , in that spot in rush hour traffic . The only certified place I could take it was in Beaverton . So , for about a week , I went without my car . I borrowed Handsome Man 's a few times , and I also learned how to take the bus . I 'd taken TriMet plenty of times , and often found it a hassle . But not anymore . It turns out there it Posted by It is summer at the farmers markets now , too , even though it is a lovely , cool 68F right now . Farmers market season is when I become happily overwhelmed , with the potential of making myself miserably overwhelmed if and when things start to wilt in my refrigerator . My Newest Neighbor and I walked to two different farmers markets today . That made three farmers markets this weekend , making up for all of the weeks this summer I was not able go to any . But yeah , overwhelming . . . . For example , as soon as I stop typing this post ( which is short , and may not be the only thing I post today ) , I am going to get up and make bread from scratch . Which would be enough for one Sunday for some people . But I am going to try to make two kinds of bread - - pita , and baguettes . And then I am going to try to prep some other food for the week , and also organize the parts of our apartment that are still Land of Dangerous Box Stacks and Mysterious Piles and oh yeah , I have to finish the draft of a grant application , too . . . My grandmother has a rule . You might call it more of a superstition . I 've always made fun of her for this rule . It is , " Never cut fabric on a Friday . " For some time , I believed this rule was universally French . Or perhaps a universal superstition of seamstresses . A few years ago , I learned that it was only my grandmother 's rule . My grandmother has had this rule since she was a child . She was riding her bike one day , wearing a newly homemade dress for the first time . She fell off her bike , which caught on her dress , tearing it beyond repair . The fabric used to make that dress was first cut on a Friday , and it is because of this incident that my grandmother believes it is bad luck to cut the fabric to sew any garment on a Friday . I used to laugh at my grandmere 's Friday rule , but now I have my own similar Thursday rule . Yesterday , I decided I am not going to run errands after work on Thursdays anymore . The day seems to be cursed for me . I 'll tell you later about what happened yesterday , but first , I want to tell you about my Wild Time Running Errands two weeks ago . I left work at 3pm to run an errand for my upcoming move . I first stopped at Fred Meyer to pick up a few things . I expected it to be a quick , uneventful trip . I stopped at a specific Fred Meyer , one that is closer to work than home , for two reasons . This particular Fred Meyer always has a giant bin of free boxes by the cash registers . The other reason was to return some specific ginger ale bottles to the bottle return at that Fred Meyer , because the machine at my home Fred Meyer didn 't accept them , but I know I had purchased that four - pack of ginger ale at this specific Fred Meyer . [ A note for my readers in NJ and other places without a bottle deposit law : In Oregon , you can only return bottles to a store that sells that exact item . It doesn 't have to be the store where you bought that item , but they have to carry the same brand and type of soda , beer , whatever . The corollary to this is that stores are required to take back containers if they charged you the Posted by Today 's prompt is : Unpack the statement : truth is stranger than fiction . I 'm not sure I can unpack it , but I could provide plenty of examples . This seems like a good day to tell you about my Wild Time Running Errands , but I have to get ready for work . Maybe I will write it on lunch and post it by this evening . In the meantime , my new masthead is now here ! It was made by My Handsome Roommate with photographs he 's taken in Oregon . He took the photo of Crater Lake and all of the things floating in front of Crater Lake . He added my friends and me swimming in Crater Lake . We were really swimming in a different lake . My new roommate is working on a new blog masthead for me . For months , I had a boring , weird , depressing picture of a January sunset in Eastern Montana . It had nothing to do with big hair , Jersey girls , or Oregon . My favorite is probably Summer 2010 's ( that lasted until winter ) , in which I gigantically loomed over Trillium Lake at Mount Hood with a big smile , a sparkler , and a flag painted on my arm . But that is too much ME ME ME . So I switched back to the first ever Big - Haired Jersey Girl in Oregon masthead , which you see right now . He started making it with a picture of me that he thinks his very pretty . He combined it with a picture that he took of Crater Lake , which is also pretty . That seemed to be it . I thought it was too pretty . " Where 's the big hair ? I know you think I am pretty , but that 's not what Big - Haired Jersey Girl is about ! It 's about . . . you know ! that time we went camping and had to carry those burning logs and the tent almost blew away and I thought a crazy person was going to come get us ! Tripping and falling down ! Things like that ! And also traveling and plants and big hair ! " I drifted off to sleep and woke up seeing something more promising . But he left before I could upload it . Plus , I have work to do . ( This is just a short break . ) Today , before the whiteboard got totally erased , I finally transcribed a list of " Things to Write About " from March or April . So those might be coming soon . It includes such topics as " Anacardiace - cake " and " Lively Art of Writing / Portland - NJ . " In my drafts folder on blogger , the two most recent incomplete posts are titled , " Life - changing cake " and " Wild time running errands . " Just so you have something to look forward to . That is today 's prompt from NaBloPoMo . This month 's theme is fiction , and while today 's prompt takes a turn from last week 's book - themed prompts , I can see how this relates to " fiction . " Unlike the book - themed questions , I actually have an answer for this one . I 've been described by some as a Rules Person . My new roommate likes to tease me for refusing to jaywalk . I describe myself as pedantic when it comes to rules . It may seem incongruous with the above to announce that I think white lies , and even lies that aren 't white , are at times perfectly justified . The logic behind my pedantry , when it comes to rules , ethics , and morality , is somewhat deductive . It starts from a broad premise and then works its way down . If there is some other broad moral premise before you get to the question , " Do I tell the truth or lie ? " , I believe that this broad moral premise overrides the moral statement , " Lying is wrong . " The example that comes up most often in my life and my advice to others is privacy . You have a right to privacy . I have a right to privacy . The First Amendment even protects that right ! ( Sorry , school is in my head too much lately . ) If someone is asking you to tell you something that is none of their business , it is not immoral to answer them with a lie , white or otherwise . Because the overriding moral here is your right to privacy , and the fact that certain things are none of anyone 's business unless you deem it to be so . If my phone battery hadn 't used itself up calling people from my purse yesterday , I could have ended this with a picture of some hydrangeas in my neighborhood that are so blue , it seems surreal . What do you think about white lies ? A few clarifications from yesterday 's post . First of all , I did not intend to suggest that anyone I know falls particularly into that category of global - warming - believers or pro - or - anti - abortion - rights who is more interested in their own ego or their own affiliation with a group , than they are in the actual cause . So , do not read that and think I am talking about you . I 'm probably not . I do not read your writings about global warming and roll my eyes . A second clarification is to give credit to the Multnomah County Library where that credit is due . Though it won 't get my anti - feminist book for me so that I don 't have to pay ( aside from taxes ) to read it , it is in most respects a wonderful library system . ( So are New Jersey libraries , so I 've been pretty spoiled . ) Anyway , I can 't criticize you too much , Multnomah County Library , because you got me Iggy Pop CDs . It all started because I was listening to David Bowie a lot . Thanks to the Multnomah County Library , again , for supplementing my current option of Aladdin Sane with a two - disc collection the name of which I have forgotten at the moment . What started that , most likely , was a party that The Roommate fka Handsome Man and I attended in late April . It was David Bowie themed . I dressed as Sarah from the Labyrinth . Why , yes , there are pictures ! I look like a marshmallow in them . ( And I can 't find any on my computer , so I 'll have to get them from TRfkaHM before I can share them with you . ) Anyway , listening to the CD from the library , I stopped one day and thought , " Wow , I forgot about these songs ! I really like them ! " One in particular was " China Girl . " I became interested in the lyrics , to which I 'd been only half - listening . From the depths of what I heard as , " blahblahblahblah little China Girl , blahblahblahblah , " some words stood out and grabbed my attention . As a side note , I still hear the song ( both versions - - but I 'll get to that later ) as something like this : I hhmm hmm blah bmhmhmhmm , Little China Girl . La la doo doo la la hmmm hmm , Little China Girl . I hear her Posted by I have started reading books with which I think I will fundamentally disagree . I 've been kind of busy , so I haven 't gotten very far on this project . When the library refused to get The Flipside of Feminism from Interlibrary Loan based on their rule that they do not get books published in the same year as the interlibrary loan request ( note : What the hell ! ? Thanks a lot , Multnomah County Library ! Like I 'm going to have an easy time convincing Portland libraries to purchase a book subtitled What Smart Women Know and Men Can 't Say on some editions and on other editions , the " Smart " is swapped out for " Conservative " ) , I mulled over whether or not I would want to pay money for such a book , and only got as far as reading the free sample for my Nook . I came up with this theory awhile ago , probably a revival of something I started thinking as early as high school , that much of the disagreements about politics , economics , all that " how stuff works and how it should work and what should happen " kind of stuff , is based in semantics . For example , Group A and Group B are arguing about Topic C , and Group A is dead set on Solution A ; Group B is dead set on Solution B . They all agree that Solution A and Solution B are fundamentally opposed , because one is called A and one is called B and B basically means , " Not A " ! But if both groups sat down and started listing the characteristics of Solution A and Not A / Solution B , they might find that there is a lot of common ground . Or they might find that Solution A and Solution B are exactly the same thing . I have been thinking about this quite a bit , especially now that I am in Government School ( aka The Mark O . Hatfield School of Government at Portland State University . From now on , I will refer to it as " Government School . " ) ( This is partially because I keep having to double check if Mr . Hatfield 's name is spelled " Mark " or " Marc . " ) I think that 's where I 'll end for today . Otherwise , this could turn into a full - blown rant . Not just Rant with a capital R , but a RANT . Because my views on thisPosted by I missed the bus again yesterday . When I got my bus pass , I vowed to use it enough to get my money 's worth . This was about 7 bus rides a week , so if I took the bus four out of five weekdays , I would come out ahead . Well , these past two weeks of moving and settling in are probably the reason that I only took the bus a handful of times . I think I drove to work every day that I went to work . Oh well . It 's nice to break up routine once in awhile , to sit in traffic that 's getting worse every week , but to only have to travel five miles in it ; to listen to my own music ; and to have an extra twenty minutes or so at home in the morning . As a side note , even with the extra driving these past two weeks , I have only put four hundred miles in my car since my last oil change . Which was on May 11th . Anyway , as I was driving home yesterday , stuck sitting still in traffic atop the Marquam Bridge , I could see Mount Saint Helens faintly to the northeast through hazy clouds , and I could see Mount Hood to the southeast through some kind of grating on the side of the bridge . In that moment , I felt not stuck or hot or impatient but lucky . I get to see these beautiful mountains from something as prosaic as Friday evening rush hour . It is also not lost on me that I am extremely lucky to live so close to where I work . I am lucky that , when I miss the bus , I have a car to take to work , and I feel the most lucky that I live on a bus line that goes right to work . No transfers ! I came home to a big package of toilet paper and a bouquet of flowers that My Roommate fka Handsome Man picked up while I was at work ! Then I got to make dinner , which was something I actually wanted to do . It was the first time for two weeks I 'd been able to make dinner without feeling rushed . I made a variation of this with vegetables from our gardens . I used Swiss chard , really strong bolted arugula leaves , chives instead of scallions , carrots ( from a five - pound lasts - six - months bag from Winco , not from anything remotely homegrown or fresh ) , and snap peas instead of sprPosted by NOTE : Google tells me that , in the last four years , many people have come to this blog looking for a vegan clafoutis recipe . I imagine that the post that follows , a part two of something that is more of a story than a recipe , is quite frustrating . So , if you are looking for the vegan clafoutis recipe , the place you want to go is here . Since the recipe only calls for 6 TBSP MILK and 2 - 3 EGGS , it 's pretty easy to make this dessert vegan . Except I 'd never tried to replace milk in a recipe where I couldn 't just use coconut milk . While I 'm sure it would be delicious , I didn 't want to make a coconut cherry clafoutis . Thanks to Google , I learned that soy milk is the best , and almond milk is a close second . I was worried that the soy milk might impart a funny flavor to a dessert like clafoutis , with such little added flavoring in the dough . Also , I didn 't have time to make a fresh batch . What truly pushed me in the direction of using almond milk was botany . Cherries and almonds are botanically related . They are both Prunus . A slight almond flavor would not overwhelm a cherry dessert . Now I can 't stop drinking almond milk . I wonder if it 's easy to make . If so , Bag of Almonds from the WinCo Bulk Bin Flopping Around in the Freezer , I 've got plans for you . Replacing the eggs was easy . I did what I always do , grind flax seeds and whisk them with water like I 'm making mayonnaise , until they start acting like egg whites . The Post Punk Kitchen explains it well ! NOTE : Google tells me that , in the last four years , many people have come to this blog looking for a vegan clafoutis recipe . I imagine that the post that follows , something that is more of a story than a recipe , is quite frustrating . So , if you are looking for the vegan clafoutis recipe , the place you want to go is here . In particular , these are thoughts on French recipes . Take , for example , my mother 's cousin 's recipe for the pickled cherries written about here . The recipe states how much vinegar to use , how much and exactly what type of sugar to use , that exactly three pinches of cinnamon must go into the pickling solution , and exactly how many days the jars must sit " dans le noir " ( in total darkness . ) It even cautions you that the pickles , once the jar is opened , will be very strong , " like a new pot of mustard . " But the recipe fails to include a detail that , by some standards , is vital . My family 's recipe for vin de cerisier or pechier ( cherry - leaf or peachtree - leaf wine ) is similarly composed . I don 't have it on hand , but I do recall that it says to pluck exactly sixty leaves from your desired tree in the month of September only ! ! ! ! ! ( However I have witnessed my mother 's other cousin picking cherry tree leaves for this recipe in October . October ! ! ! ! ! ) Now , I turn to my family recipe for clafoutis , also spelled clafouti , pronounced by my family as " cleff - foo - TEA " but pronounced by the Barefoot Contessa as " claFOOty . " I think of it is as a light , cake - y dessert with lots of fruit and less cake . Mark Bittman described it in How to Cook Everything as like a giant pancake baked in the oven with fruit . Either way , it 's delicious . It can be made with pretty much any fruit . It 's usually made with cherries , sour cherries ( or as you Oregonians call them , " pie cherries " ) , and one distinguishing characteristic of clafoutis made with cherries is that you do not remove the pits from the cherries . It would change the way the dessert bakes . Or something . I don 't know . I have had it both ways , and personally , I like it the old - fashioned way . It helps the fruit retain its structure and prevents the dessert from turning into messy pink mush . Once pie cherries ( oops , I mean , sour cherries ! ) came into season and were available at my local Whole Foods , I planned to make clafoutis . The recipe is not , as I suspected , on my computer . I 've had my grandmere recite it to me over the phone before , but sometimes she changes her version over the phone . I wanted to find the original , as written and retyped into Gmail by my mother . Trying both spellings , I finally stumbled across the following . You will note that it shares with the other French recipes mentioned in this writing a strange lack of detail with reference to how much fruit you are supposed to use . But it was the last part of the recipe that had me the most dismayed . As my final week of summer classes keeps me busy , I will be posting photographs of things I 've seen recently , and some from the traveling I 've done , but barely documented in words , since last spring . Today , I am going to share with you one of my favorite places in the world , Leonard J . Buck Garden in Far Hills , New Jersey . A short drive west will take you to Willowwood Arboretum in Pottersville , NJ , another beautiful and peaceful place to spend time . An insect I am no longer able to identify , hanging out on an iris . Adiantum pedatum and other ferns , not so restrained as yesterday 's fern baby . Taken from the ground , looking up through the leaves of some kind of begonia . Here is where my camera went wacky . The camera I bought last February has some kind of film transport issue which the camera store has been unable to fix . The witch - hat - shaped insect leaf gall that gives witch hazels their name , with a gate from Willowwood superimposed over half of the picture . The result of my broken camera is that while it sometimes operates just fine , it also sometimes gives me pictures like the following : Gate and flowers at Willowwood Arboretum . Well , I will save more of Willowwood Arboretum and other adventures for another day . By the way , today 's NaBloPoMo prompt was , " Have you ever wished you could enter a book ? " I 'm afraid my answer to that question is a very uninteresting , " NO ! " I am too pragmatic . Much as I would like to have the opportunity to befriend Anne Shirley , to have her confirm my suspicions that I am a kindred spirit , and as much as I would love to see the wild places of 19th - century Prince Edward Island with my own eyes , I wouldn 't want to hang out there very long . I 'd start to miss things like indoor plumbing , my e - mail , and readily - available ethnic food . This may explain why books and movies about characters who inadvertently get trapped in their favorite stories have always made me very anxious . I am ashamed to tell you how much time I spent , while watching Lost in Austen , thinking , " Yeah , she gets to smooch Mr . DarcyPosted by Today 's prompt from NaBloPoMo is , " What 's your favorite author ? " I answer this question similarly to yesterday 's question . How can I have a favorite author ! ? That 's like choosing a favorite flower ! ( I wonder if psychologists have a name for people who can 't choose a favorite anything . ) Some writers I did not mention yesterday are Charlotte Bronte and Jane Austen . I can 't really be sure that Jane Eyre is my favorite book , however , and none of Jane Austen 's stand out as my favorite . Does anyone remember those " get to know your friends " e - mail surveys that used to go around ? There was one in particular that I would get every six months or so . This was the pre - Facebook Internet time - waster in which , like Facebook , you got to talk about yourself and share that information with your Internet friends . Sandwiched in between innocuous questions such as , " What is your favorite author ? " " What is your favorite color ? " were oddly placed questions about one 's sex life . Sometimes they weren 't so explicit as to be obvious , questions such as , " What 's your number ? " could naively be answered with one 's lucky number or phone number . " Lights on or off ? " would just confuse the survey taker , but once they got to " Shirt on or off ? " , they might have started to catch on . Anyway , when I took those surveys , I usually answered , " What 's your favorite book ? " or " What 's your favorite author ? " with whatever I was reading at the time , if I liked it , and if not , I 'd answer with the most recent book I 'd read and enjoyed . Come to think of it , I did this on Facebook , too , when I kept that part of my profile regularly updated . ( Before things like Facebook Photos and the status update were around to occupy my wasted time . ) Currently , I am reading a lot of Supreme Court stuff and some books on grant - writing . The last book I started reading was My Antonia by Willa Cather . The last ( and only ) time I read that book was in tenth grade . I certainly appreciate it more now than I did as a sixteen - year - old , although at that age , while I felt that the book was slow enPosted by The masthead for this blog was created by Tyler Finkle , using photographs of his own and those of others licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution - Share Alike 3 . 0 Unported License , the text of which can be found here . The cat on the right was taken from the work of Si Griffiths , the bacon was found here and I am currently unable to locate the name of the copyright holder , and the red book on which my family cat Asia is seated is the work of Dr . Marcus Gossler . If you are interested in having Tyler Finkle design a masthead for you , leave a comment on this blog or send me an e - mail .

* WARNING : This letter contains spoilers for All Broke Down . If you haven 't yet read that book , read at your own peril . SECOND WARNING : this letter talks about fictional characters as if they are real people . Sorry I 'm not sorry . THIRD WARNING : The letter below broaches a serious topic that could be a trigger for some people * At the time , I told her no . I had plans for both of them that included their own storylines . I thought they were too much alike . They 'd make great friends . They might even hook - up , but in the end . . . I couldn 't envision anything serious for them . So I actually rewrote some of their scenes trying to make that aspect of their connection more obvious . And still , when All Lined Up released , amidst the chatter about sweet Carson and sassy Dallas , I had people asking if Stella and Ryan were next . I denied it again ( and again and again ) . While I was writing All Broke Down , the news was inundated with information about the Steubenville rape trial and other tragedies and injustices like it . Tragedies where women have been violated first by an attacker , then by judgmental and hateful people , and finally by a justice system that repeatedly fails survivors of sexual assault . Having grown up in Texas , where too often football stars are treated like gods and can get away with just about anything , it hit particularly close to home . And since All Broke Down featured a passionate activist heroine , I felt compelled to reference this chronic dark underbelly of elite sports . I can remember vividly sitting on my couch , brainstorming how I would incorporate such an event into the book . I had thought the assault would happen to an unknown character , and maybe I would focus on the way it divided the team and the school and the town . But like I said . . . Sometimes a character will become bigger and more human than I anticipated . And it sounds crazy , but in my mind , I felt Stella push her way forward and say , " Mine . This is my story . " I immediately began to cry . Sob , really . Because I loved her as a character . She was hilarious and strong and didn 't take crap from anyone . She was everything I always hope to be . And I didn 't want her to go through that . Even as I cried , my brain began to tell me that it made sense . Stella was vibrant and enjoyed a wild party . She was not afraid of her sexuality , and she had no problem with casual sex . She was the kind of girl that probably had a reputation . The kind of girl who could be heinously and violently taken advantage of , and people would STILL blame her . Because she was in the wrong place , wearing the wrong clothes , behaving in the wrong way . But just because it COULD happen to her , didn 't mean I wanted it to . But once again , Stella was there in my head saying , " Someone needs to tell this story . And I 'm strong enough to do it . Let me . " And when Stella chose her story , she also chose the man I 'd been adamant wasn 't right for her . Because as it turns out . . . Those two characters who I thought were too alike aren 't so alike anymore . And Stella needs Ryan to help her hold on to that vibrant and strong girl she was before . It 's about the aftermath . Depression . Shame . Guilt . Anger . Injustice . Victim - blaming . Slut - shaming . It 's about the way that kind of event can change everything - - how you relate to people , how you think , how you dream , how you love . It 's about the way the rest of the world moves on to the next big tragedy , and you 're still left holding the broken pieces of who you used to be , with no idea how to put them together again or even if you want to . It will be the most difficult story I ever tell . And the most important . Because it 's a story that belongs not just to Stella , but to millions of people around the world . It 's a story that belongs to a new person every 107 seconds * . And that 's just in the United States . Think about that for a moment . 107 seconds . Stella 's story won 't be any easier to read than it will be to write . But I hope you 'll help me drag this story into the light . Maybe something terrible happened to her that she can 't even remember . And maybe it drives her crazy when her friends treat her like she 's on the verge of breaking because of it . Maybe it feels even worse when they do what she asks and pretend that it never happened at all . And maybe she 's been getting harassing emails and messages for months from people who don 't even know her , but hate her all the same . For Ryan Blake , Stella was always that girl . Vibrant and hilarious and beautiful . He wanted her as his best friend . His more than friends . His everything and anything that she would give him . Which these days is a whole lot of nothing . She gets angry when he 's there . Angry when he 's not there . Angry when he tries to talk and when he doesn 't . What was supposed to be an objective and artistic look at emotion and secrets and sex suddenly becomes much more personal . When he hits it off with another girl from the project , Stella will have to decide if she 's willing to do more than make art about intimacy . To keep him , she 'll have to open up and let herself be the one thing she swore she 'd never be again . ALL CLOSED OFF will be releasing sometime in early 2016 . I don 't have a date yet for several reasons . The first and most important , is that I want to do this story justice . And as such , I have no intentions of rushing the process . Secondly , I 'll be returning to indie publishing for the remainder of the Rusk series . As you can probably tell , this story means a great deal to me . And by having the ultimate control over everything from timing to editing to price , I 'll be able to ensure that I 'm able to create exactly the story I envision . Unfortunately , that means you won 't be seeing the paperback of ALL CLOSED OFF on the shelves in most stores . Nor is it currently available for pre - order . But I hope you 'll add the book on goodreads , follow me on social media , and / or join my newsletter . I promise to shout it all over the place when I have a set release date or pre - order links . Stella 's experience is only one story of many . She was with someone she trusted when it happened , and the only memories she has are pieced together from her own blurred recollections and the things people have told her . Not everyone 's experience with sexual assault is the same . Each person reacts , copes , and overcomes differently . And while this book is about one specific character 's journey , I would like to tell as many sides of this story as possible . As Stella grapples with her thoughts and emotions she 'll be searching for advice , for comfort , for a place where people understand her and can identify with what she 's experiencing . I 'd like to give you the opportunity to add your voice to Stella 's . Use the hashtag # WhenItHappened and let your voice be heard on your own by posting on your own social media , or if you 'd rather I share your words fill out this google document and tell me your story . You can fill out this form anonymously or not . I 'd like to begin this discussion now because April is Sexual Assault Awareness Month . But my hope is to include as many stories as possible within the book itself . Cora Carmack is a twenty - something New York Times bestselling author who likes to write about twenty - something characters . She 's done a multitude of things in her life - - boring jobs ( like working retail ) , Fun jobs ( like working in a theatre ) , stressful jobs ( like teaching ) , and dream jobs ( like writing ) . She now splits her time between Austin , TX and New York City and spends her days writing , traveling , and spending way too much time on the internet . In her books , you can expect to find humor , heart , and a whole lot of awkward . Because let 's face it . . . awkward people need love , too . On the island of Nil , the rules are set . You have exactly 365 days to escape - or you die . Rives is now the undisputed Leader of Nil City , but keeping the City united is tougher than ever . Raiders have grown bolder , supplies are dwindling , and non - human inhabitants have taken a turn toward the deadly . New arrivals cause rifts within the City , putting the Search system at risk , and calling everything Rives knows into question . Desperate for answers , he teams up with the only other person searching for them : Skye , a new arrival with a mysterious past of her own . Soon the duo find themselves locked in a desperate race to save all the residents of Nil - and possibly destroy the island forever . But at what cost ? And who will pay the price ? I didn 't mention this in my review of NIL , but my only criticism was that we didn 't get any information on the history of NIL and how it came to be or any other kind of backstory on NIL . Thankfully , in NIL Unlocked , I got some answers . I got answers about NIL and how it worked . In some ways , this was my favorite part of the book . We wouldn 't have known anything about NIL if it weren 't for Skye . NIL wasn 't a mystery to Skye and although I 'd love to say more on that front , I can 't because of how spoilery it would end up being and I really want to avoid spoilers as much as I can . Skye was awesome though and as much as I loved Charley in book one , I loved Skye equally . As fascinating as Skye was , I was very curious about Rives . I had loved him in NIL and was excited to see what was in store for him . I had loved Thad , but I think I actually loved Rives more . I 'm not sure exactly why , but Rives was awesome and he was a leader and he had a whole lot of strength . Unlike with Charley & Thad , Skye and Rives ' romance didn 't start until the book was nearly over and I think I liked that better . I love slow burn romances and Skye & Rives fit that to a T . Truthfully though , I do wonder if Skye 's NIL knowledge was really what attracted Rives to her . Yeah maybe that 's a bit cynical , but I wonder if Rives would have fallen for her if she didn 't have this " insider information " The secondary characters were once again , awesome . I loved Jillian and Dex especially and it was because of them , that the ending of this book had me pretty much sobbing into the pages . I wasn 't expecting the feels to be quite as intense in the second book , but in many ways , the feels were more intense . I don 't know how Lynne Matson does it . On the mysterious island of Nil , the rules are set . You have one year . Exactly 365 days - - to escape , or you die . Seventeen - year - old Charley doesn 't know the rules . She doesn 't even know where she is . The last thing she remembers is blacking out , and when she wakes up , she 's lying naked in an empty rock field . Lost and alone , Charley finds no sign of other people until she meets Thad , the gorgeous leader of a clan of teenage refugees . Soon Charley learns that leaving the island is harder than she thought . . . and so is falling in love . With Thad 's time running out , Charley realizes that to save their future , Charley must first save him . And on an island rife with dangers , their greatest threat is time . I honestly had no idea what to expect with this book . I had really high hopes for it , but wasn 't sure if it would deliver . And for a little while , I wasn 't sure it would . It was a bit slow in the beginning , which worried me . But by the time I reached page 80 , it had picked up and I was captivated by the story . Plus , if it 's going to be compared to my all time favorite TV show , LOST , then the chances are pretty high that I 'll fall in love with it . I had a hard time trying to figure out what genre I 'd put this book in . It was obviously YA , but there were several sub - genres that I could have put it in . There was romance , there were paranormal elements and there was science fiction . In some ways , I find these kind of books the most compelling because there are multiple elements involved and they each do their part to tell the story . Even though Charley & Thad were considered the main characters , I really loved Natalie . She was so vulnerable , so realistic . I loved how she trusted Thad and Charley despite all of the craziness going on . She cared about all of NIL 's inhabitants . She had a good heart , a caring heart . NIL itself was interesting . Not only was it an island but it also seemed to be personified . I 'd never seen this in a book before , so that was captivating . Was NIL also a person or was she seemingly personified because of the mental health of all the inhabitants . That is probably the creepiest song I 've ever heard . Legitimate shivers . Not a lot was said about Ramia , but I was so , so curious about her . I actually had some theories about her and her connection to NIL . I probably spent a bit too much time thinking about her and her possible connection to NIL . Now Charley & Thad . I understand that a lot of people were a bit iffy on how quickly things developed between them , but this wasn 't typical life . They were on an island for goodness sakes . It 's not like they had a million other life things to attend to , Yeah they were off searching for gates and even newcomers , but there was more time to develop a relationship . I liked them together , I rooted for them to get together and that is a great feeling to be able to do . " You 're right , Charley . NIL does change the way you see things . NIL makes everything more clear . What 's important , what matters . And for me , that 's you . " This book stressed me out completely . I can 't exactly say why it did , as it could be considered very spoilery , and I really don 't want to ruin it for others . But , I absolutely loved it and highly recommend it . I am giving it 5 stars and I cannot wait to read NIL Unlocked , which I 'll be starting ASAP . How has it been 2 years since I started book blogging ? 24 months ago I decided to start blogging about books . I didn 't know what I was getting myself into . I didn 't know half of the thing I know now . I don 't make friends easily . Maybe its because of my age , maybe it 's because I can be really blunt & honest to people . Maybe I 'm just not the type of person that is able to keep friendships going . Maybe I just don 't have that ability . Yet with blogging , it 's easier . We have different lives , but we all connect through our love of books & reading . If I could tell my newbie book blogging self something , I 'd tell myself not to force things . Either friendships or reading certain books . I 'd tell myself not to overthink things . I 'd tell myself to be selective in the books I choose to review , and the blog tours I get invitations for . There are so many amazing book bloggers who I 've befriended , who 've been there for me in my darkest times . So many authors who have done the same thing . I usually don 't get overly sentimental , but thank you to those bloggers and those authors who 've accepted me , cared about me and have believed in me when I didn 't always believe in myself . Kat , Bekka , Lyn , Kara , Pixie , Meredith , Kayla & Stacie among so many others have supported me , loved me and cared about me . So many of you offered to chase down my cheating ex with pitchforks , so many of you have listened to me as my heart was breaking over the whole situation . So many of you have been on my side , fighting in my corner as I got rejected for job after job after job . I 'd be lost without you all . Thank you for caring about me . The authors have been equally amazing , kind and generous . Corey Ann , we bonded over our love of cheese and now I think of you whenever I eat cheese . Jessica Verdi , your kindness won 't soon be forgotten . Neither will your gorgeous books . Brandy Colbert , Becky Albertalli , Courtney C . Stevens , I fell in love with your books and have championed the heck out of them . Your kindness made it easy for me to fall in love with your books . There are so many other authors that have invaded my cynical heart . Thank you to each and every one of you . I 've made no secret about the fact that I 'm working on some WIPs . I 've had so much support for these as well . Kat , Bekka , Stormy , I 'd be lost without your support . I started working on a LGBT NA that Dahlia Adler in particular has been hugely supportive of . A million thank yous to Dahlia for encouraging me to write it . Thank you to this awesome community for embracing me 2 years ago . I am incredibly lucky to know so many awesome people . The Maze Runner meets Scott Westerfeld in this gripping new series about teens held captive in a human zoo by an otherworldly race . From Megan Shepherd , the acclaimed author of The Madman 's Daughter trilogy . When Cora Mason wakes in a desert , she doesn 't know where she is or who put her there . As she explores , she finds an impossible mix of environments - tundra next to desert , farm next to jungle , and a strangely empty town cobbled together from different cultures - all watched over by eerie black windows . And she isn 't alone . Four other teenagers have also been taken : a beautiful model , a tattooed smuggler , a secretive genius , and an army brat who seems to know too much about Cora 's past . None of them have a clue as to what happened , and all of them have secrets . As the unlikely group struggles for leadership , they slowly start to trust each other . But when their mysterious jailer - a handsome young guard called Cassian - appears , they realize that their captivity is more terrifying than they could ever imagine : Their captors aren 't from Earth . And they have taken the five teenagers for an otherworldly zoo - where the exhibits are humans . As a forbidden attraction develops between Cora and Cassian , she realizes that her best chance of escape might be in the arms of her own jailer - though that would mean leaving the others behind . Can Cora manage to save herself and her companions ? And if so . . . what world lies beyond the walls of their cage ? I was nervous about this book because I didn 't enjoy The Madman 's Daughter trilogy . I wanted to give Shepherd another chance to impress me . This book looked like something I 'd love , so I was also excited . This book really surprised me in the best way . It was fascinating , and the world building was really well done . I was nervous about the world building because it can either be really awesome and help contribute to the story , or it can be underdeveloped and ruin the story . I could picture the different enclosures and the people well . Cassian was interesting and I 'm not 100 % sure I trust him at this point in the story . He knows far more than Cora or any of the others do at this point and he 's very reluctant to share what he knows , even with Cora . He does bend the rules at times , so you start to think that he 's caught between a rock and a hard place . He seems to care for Cora by the time the book ends , but like I said , I 'm not sure I trust him yet . Now Mali was so freaking fascinating , I actually liked her the best out of all the characters . She was so mysterious and intriguing . I was never quite sure whose side she was on , if she was really as messed up as she seemed . So getting parts of the story from her point of view was awesome and I actually wished there was more of her in the story . The writing style was interesting . It had been a long time since I had read something in third person present tense , so I was worried I wouldn 't be able to get invested in the story . Thankfully the story itself was captivating and I had no issues with the way it was written . I was really impressed by this book . I was hooked from the beginning and I never wanted to put it down . It was such a unique story , and I cannot wait for book 2 to come out . It 's going to be a long wait until then . I am giving this book 4 . 5 stars . It was nearly perfect and I would recommend it to anyone who likes science fiction . When Gia Montgomery 's boyfriend , Bradley , dumps her in the parking lot of her high school prom , she has to think fast . After all , she 'd been telling her friends about him for months now . This was supposed to be the night she proved he existed . So when she sees a cute guy waiting to pick up his sister , she enlists his help . The task is simple : be her fill - in boyfriend - two hours , zero commitment , a few white lies . After that , she can win back the real Bradley . The problem is that days after prom , it 's not the real Bradley she 's thinking about , but the stand - in . The one whose name she doesn 't even know . But tracking him down doesn 't mean they 're done faking a relationship . Gia owes him a favor and his sister intends to see that he collects : his ex - girlfriend 's graduation party - three hours , zero commitment , a few white lies . Just when Gia begins to wonder if she could turn her fake boyfriend into a real one , Bradley comes waltzing back into her life , exposing her lie , and threatening to destroy her friendships and her new - found relationship . I mean , this is her 3rd contemporary novel and she just has this ability to create swoony boys and put them together with imperfect girls . God , her formula is awesome . The Distance Between Us is still my favorite Kasie West contemporary , but The Fill - In Boyfriend is fighting for 2nd place alongside On The Fence . We meet Gia just as she 's getting dumped on prom night by her boyfriend , Bradley . That was rough to read . High school can be a cruel place , especially if you attend a promo solo . For Gia , the idea of attending prom on her own is not something she wants to face . Not when Jules , her frenemy , has doubted the existence of Bradley since the beginning . The last thing Gia wants is to be seen as a liar . On a whim , she asks a guy who just dropped his sister off , to be her date to prom . She wants him to pretend to be Bradley , and after a little bit of bantering , he agrees . The night ends a little rocky , and Gia doubts that she 'll ever see Fill - In Bradley again . Now it 's time for Fill - In Bradley to pass Gia off as his girlfriend at a party that his ex will be at . Fill - In Bradley is clearly still in love with his ex , and is willing to do whatever he has to do in order to get her to come back to him . His sister is all for this plan although she intensely dislikes her brother 's ex . More craziness ensues at the party , but my favorite part was seeing the sparks increase between Fill - In Bradley and Gia . I could feel the chemistry between them , I felt like I could root for them as a couple . That , right there is an awesome feeling . I loved the romance between Gia & Fill - In Bradley . It worked for me because there were things that balanced each of them out . When things went sour between Fill - In Bradley and his ex , his self - esteem took a nosedive . Gia helped his confidence . Gia started off the book a bit uptight and rigid , but Fill - In Bradley helped relax her . On the surface , her family seems normal , loving and supportive of each other , but as the book continues on , we realize that Gia doesn 't really share anything with her parents , and her mom especially , keeps her emotions bottled up , just like Gia does . I did love her dad though . Her dad was awesome and protective . This book explored the complexities of sibling relationships as well . I spent most of the book detesting the hell out of Gia 's brother Drew . He just seemed like such a jackass and most of the time , the things he would say would enrage me . Things between Drew & Gia were complicated , but I liked how it ended . Friendships in your teen years are difficult as well . For Gia , her friendships with Claire , Laney and Jules were difficult . I truly think that Jules was awful , but that she was also the Alpha . Claire & Laney were the Betas . I also feel like Gia was never her true self around these girls . Like she had to behave a certain way for these girls to even tolerate her . The exploration of teenage friendships was truly great . I really enjoyed this book , and it was everything I 've come to expect from a Kasie West book . I am giving this book 4 . 5 stars . I 'm not actually sure why I cannot give it the full 5 stars , but I definitely recommend it very highly for contemporary lovers . The war rages on between Gemma and Hallie in the second installment of the Broken Hearts and Revenge series . After the humiliating events on the 4th of July , Gemma 's trying to handle the fact that Hallie knew who she was all along , and she was the one who stole Teddy from her . Gemma vows revenge , but things get more complicated than she planned . Ford , Gemma 's long - time crush , has arrived in the Hamptons cuter than ever . Josh is refusing to speak to her after she lied to him , and Teddy is playing champion to his beloved Marsh Warbler ( in Gemma 's backyard , no less ) . Gemma and Hallie find themselves locked in an escalating revenge cycle . Just when Gemma thinks she has the upper hand , the biggest bombshell of all is dropped . And it 's one that threatens to change her life forever . This exciting sequel to Broken Hearts , Fences , and Other Things To Mend will leave you begging for the third installment . I needed something fluffy and summery after finishing a book full of feels right before this . And fluffy and summery was exactly what I got . I was surprised how much I liked the first book in this trilogy , Broken Hearts , Fences and Other Things to Mend as it 's not normally my thing . I go for the " dark YA Contemporaries " I don 't usually go for the fluffy ones . Since I enjoyed the first book so much , I was eager to get my hands on the second book . Thanks to a fellow book blogger , I got my hands on it ! The second book of a series usually has the sophomore slump issue . It 's hard to write or read a book that has no real beginning or ending . Thankfully , this book did not suffer from that problem . We finally got to meet Ford and Gwynneth . I had been very curious about those two since book one and we finally got to meet them and they both had significant parts in the book . I ship Ford & Gemma by the way . You may not remember how much I didn 't like Josh & Gemma together . I mean Josh was a gentleman and he was kind and sweet , but I didn 't feel a true romantic connection between him and Gemma . Now Gemma & Ford on the other hand , they have chemistry and it sizzles . Please make them happen , Finn . Pretty please ? The drama was definitely amped up in this one . From cheese to shoplifting to betrayals , it was all in there . There was romance , there was friendship and there was a lot of scheming . Now did I always agree with what Gemma was doing ? Nope , sometimes I just wanted her to stop and think about what she was doing . Then shit would hit the fan again and I would be pulled right back into this crazy ride . This book was even better than the first book . Maybe because I loved Gemma and Ford together . Maybe because the drama was ramped up a degree . I 'm not sure , but I loved this book . It was exactly what I needed to read at this time . 5 stars to this drama filled , summery book with a cliffhanger that you won 't see coming . This week was a light week for me . I added three books to my shelves and they were books I won from a giveaway . Super excited about all three of these books and since they are May releases , I hope to have reviews up for them soon . I also added one review book to the pile . Thankfully it 's a July release so I won 't read it for awhile . Reality , it turns out , is often not what you perceive it to be - sometimes , there really is someone out to get you . Made You Up tells the story of Alex , a high school senior unable to tell the difference between real life and delusion . This is a compelling and provoking literary debut that will appeal to fans of Wes Anderson , Silver Linings Playbook , and Liar . Alex fights a daily battle to figure out the difference between reality and delusion . Armed with a take - no - prisoners attitude , her camera , a Magic 8 - Ball , and her only ally ( her little sister ) , Alex wages a war against her schizophrenia , determined to stay sane long enough to get into college . She 's pretty optimistic about her chances until classes begin , and she runs into Miles . Didn 't she imagine him ? Before she knows it , Alex is making friends , going to parties , falling in love , and experiencing all the usual rites of passage for teenagers . But Alex is used to being crazy . She 's not prepared for normal . Funny , provoking , and ultimately moving , this debut novel featuring the quintessential unreliable narrator will have readers turning the pages and trying to figure out what is real and what is made up . When Apple 's mother returns after eleven years of absence , Apple feels almost whole again . In order to heal completely , her mother will have to answer one burning question : Why did she abandon her ? But just like the stormy Christmas Eve when she left , her mother 's homecoming is bittersweet . It 's only when Apple meets her younger sister , Rain - someone more lost than she is - that she begins to see things for how they really are , allowing Apple to discover something that might help her to feel truly whole again . From the author of the acclaimed The Weight of Water comes a beautifully - crafted , moving novel about family , betrayal , and the ultimate path to healing . When I first saw the synopsis for Apple & Rain , I was excited and hopeful . Sister stories are some of my favorite things , and I was hoping I 'd love the book as much as I loved the cover . Unfortunately I spent the majority of the book metaphorically banging my head against a wall . These characters all frustrated me in varying degrees . Apple wanted her mom to come back . She held her mom up on this pedestal . Even when she did come back and make some extremely questionable decisions , it took a long time for Apple to even realize that just because her mom was back didn 't mean everything was perfect . Apple was a very frustrating character , but she was also the one who had the best character arc . By the time the book ends , she realizes that her mom isn 't perfect and that her grandmother was more of a mom to her than her own mom . I felt terrible for Rain . Clearly she had a lot of problems and I hated how her mom handled them . Yeah she carried around a baby doll , who she swore was a real baby . Most moms would have been extremely concerned about that and would have done anything to get her the help she needed . Yet , Rain and Apple 's mom didn 't give a crap . All she cared about was her career and the parties she would have ( which involved plying her oldest underage daughter with alcohol ) Apple and Rain 's mom , Annie , was incredibly selfish . She didn 't give a crap about how Apple felt about anything . She would randomly pull Apple out of school for the hell of it , or even to babysit Rain while she went on auditions . So instead of being selfless and focusing on what her daughters needed , Annie focused on herself . Her career seemed to be all that mattered to her . It was utterly infuriating . As for Nan , Egan and Del and the other secondary characters , they were woefully underdeveloped , which bummed me out . I wanted to know more about them , particularly Del . I thought there was a lot more to him than met the eye . The book definitely improved by the ending , and in fact I was able to bump it up one full star . I was excited about that because I had felt so frustrated by the book so far . I am definitely bummed that this wasn 't an emotional read like I was expecting . I didn 't laugh or cry at all and I think that was simply because I didn 't connect with the characters . I 'll be giving this book 3 stars .

Originally published in the May 17 , 1987 , edition of The Washington Post Magazine . Republished here with the author 's permission . His postscript follows . For more on Hagler - Leonard , check out Grantland 's oral history . I 'd never been to Las Vegas . Politicans , civil rights leaders , and thinkers , the people I usually write about , don 't often stop there . But it is the perfect place for a big fight , a town that reeks of dominance - rich over poor , white over black , male over female . White men with money come to Las Vegas to show that they have the power and the wealth that make losing a few grand over the weekend " no big deal . " They can buy the prettiest woman , the thickest steak and the biggest diamond ring . They can also buy two men to fight on a stage for their evening 's entertainment . Tonight it will be Marvelous Marvin Hagler and Sugar Ray Leonard . When I was a little boy , the one event I dreamed of seeing in person was a big prizefight . Other sports were on television or available to a kid who wanted to sell Cokes . The big fights were in exotic places like Zaire , the Philippines and Las Vegas . They were held in different time zones and came over the late - night radio as wire service reports at the end of each round . The late hour , the distant locale , the million - dollar prizes and my desire to be seen as sexually powerful - a man able to dominate another man as a cocky , proud prizefighter does in the ring - combined to transport me to a mythic place in my mind . Only prize - fighting could do that for me . And only prize - fighting salved my most basic fear - the fear of being beaten bloody . A prizefighter confronts this fear like no one else . It 's him alone , trapped in an elevated place , above the crowd and under hot lights . It 's him against another man who seeks to demolish him , and the judgment is absolute . Who is the better man ? Fight fans . and fighters use that phrase repeatedly : " The better man . " As in : " Leonard will try to outsmart Hagler but he won 't try to show he 's the better man . " The better man is the fighter who is the aggressor , who menaces his opponent and finally and conclusively batters him . Dominates him . Knocks him out . He can leave him unconscious , legs quivering , eyes rolling back . He can kill him . That is the better man . If I saw boxing for what it really is - just a business - I wouldn 't be interested . The passion is what captures me ; the passion coupled with the risk of defeat and failure as two men fight for all they are worth . Marvin Hagler of Newark and Sugar Ray Leonard of Palmer Park know the importance of looking tough , of appearing dominant and keeping that reputation . To Hagler and Leonard it matters that they be known as " the better man . " For me , a skinny boy growing up in a violent . poor neighborhood in Brooklyn , N . Y . to be " the better man " had real meaning . You had to fight . More than that , you had to be ready to fight . Walking down the street , in the schoolyard , on the basketball court , going to the store with your mother 's money - you had to be ready . I have a spot in my eye from a punch thrown by a big ninth - grader when I was in the seventh grade . On the handball court he told me to go get his ball and I wouldn 't . I never saw the punch . He didn 't knock me out or down , but I couldn 't see . I did manage to pick up the ball and windmill my arm as if I were throwing it back at him . When he ducked , I kicked him in the face and ran . I remember being a second - grader walking past a bunch of shrieking kids surrounding two third - graders who were fighting . The terror on the fighters ' faces heightened the fear in me . I didn 't want to be caught in that circle of howling , stupid people who wanted to see blood , to see one person reduced to tears or unconsciousness . At night when my mother made me take the garbage down the hallway to the trash room , I worried about someone attacking me . The trash room was next to the stairwell , where high school guys hung out , smoked and did drugs . Often the light bulb would be out - broken by someone who had been waiting to mug somebody . I was always scared and ready to fight . I didn 't want to fight . I made friends with Chuck , a fat but strong boy who was a feared street - fighter . Since Chuck and I were friends . I had an insurance policy , a personal bodyguard . My best friend , James , didn 't like to fight either . When he did fight , he usually lost . But because he would fight - and never backed down from a fight - he had a reputation as a tough guy and had fewer fights . I learned from his example . The prospect of fighting for me is still an emotional risk , though I 'm middle - class now and have a family and a job , and getting beat up does not hold the threat of defining me as an absolute loser . But fighting still has a hold on my primitive self and my emotions . If I have to fight , will I be the " better man , " and if I lose , what does that mean ? Am I the lesser man ? Do other people see me as shamed by submission , by the loss of face ? Will women know ? Would they want a lesser man ? These doubts attack my pride and unsettle my confidence , my sense of who l am - " the better man . " A professional fight stirs these feelings in me . Do you remember Tommy Hearns after his fight with Marvin Hagler ? A beaten man , he could get back to his feet only by hanging onto his trainers and his friends . He was dazed , his long arms hanging like spaghetti , his neck so limp that his head dangled . His eyes did not dilate . Finally , one of his friends picked him up and carried him like a father carries a baby . That was defeat - total physical wreckage . Worse , it was emotional wreckage . Hagler ran around the ring celebrating , thrusting his hands up , grabbing his crotch , smiling . His emotions were pumped . After fights , I 've seen some winning fighters stand on the ropes , making themselves taller , and scream - a throaty , visceral roar . They are alive . They are dominant . They are emotionally whole . The loser has no voice . This is a refinement over the street fight . Then when a man is down , while he 's out , the winner could kill him , sexually abuse him , take his woman , his possessions . That is emotional rape . Who will rape and who will be raped - emotionally - is the risk of fighting . My father trained fighters , men named Kid Chocolate and Finnegan who were the lightweight champions of South America . My father never fought professionally , but he was a fighter , too . He is a very handsome man with dazzling black eyes and a thick , long scar that cuts across his chest . The scar came from a knife . He was fighting a guy on the street and stepped back , away from a looping right hand . The punch missed . But my father felt a stinging sensation across his chest . The other guy had a knife in his fist with the blade sticking out . My father had other fights . He fought for money and food on board Navy ships that would pass through the Panama Canal . When he was in his forties he married my mother and began working as an accountant during the day for steady income . What defined him , however , was that he trained fighters . His picture would be on the sports pages of the papers as a fight trainer . His words were quoted . He rarely came home , but when he did , it was often with his fighters so they could eat my mother 's cooking . In one of the earliest pictures of me , I am standing in diapers , no shirt on , fists cocked . Across the way is my father in a fighting stance , crouched , on his toes , showing me the right way to get off a punch . He 's wearing baggy pants and two - tone brown - and - white shoes . My mother tells me he would take me , at age 2 , on training runs with his fighters . His favorite game with me when I was a baby was shadow - boxing . I was just 3 when my mother took me , my sister and my brother to Brooklyn . She worked in a sweatshop in the garment district in Manhattan , sewing dresses , while my father would send money to help out . My boxing lessons didn 't resume until he came to Brooklyn when I was about 10 . He was never home much , but sometimes he 'd show me combinations : how to slide and jab , how to get out of a corner . As I remember , we would do this in the mornings , and he wouldn 't have shaved yet . His beard would rake my face in the clinches . I would swoon when he butted me . And even with my guard up , the force of his punches would make them slide off my hands and land against my face . I hated getting hit in the face . I stopped asking him to show me moves . The lessons ended . Still , my love of boxing grew stronger . Muhammad Ali 's aura , his style , his poetry , his political activism drew me to him and the sport . The taunting of Frazier , the mugging with Howard Cosell ( grabbing his toupee ) - Ali was the greatest . When I was in college , I 'd go into Philadelphia once in a while to watch Monday night fights at the Spectrum . I 'd go alone . Those bouts were savage experiences , club fights pitting black against white , Cuban against Mexican , Boston against Philadelphia - inexpert boxers , many who had taken too many punches going at it for $ 100 . They exchanged roundhouse rights until one man fell . I had to get what I could from the papers about more skillful fighters . I tried to catch the good Saturday afternoon bouts on television , but there weren 't many good ones . Then Sugar Ray Leonard became popular . I 'd go out to the Capital Centre to watch his fights on the big screen . Once a guy took a swing at me when he heard me say Duran was winning the fight in Montreal . My friend Vernon decked him . I was getting closer but close wasn 't enough . I wanted to see the real thing up close - a true prizefight . Inside the Bally Grand Hotel in Las Vegas is a huge mirrored wall . Plastered on the mirror are 20 - foot - high profiles of Leonard and Hagler , their heads and chests almost touching . These profiles have no eyes , no expression , and the men are face to face as if ready to explode into combat . Hanging above the clatter and bells of the vast casino floor are big purple gloves with the fighters ' names written in fancy script . On the wide - screen television sets in the bar , they 're showing reruns of previous fights . The big - time fight hoopla doesn 't go past the bar . It does not intrude on the green felt of the gambling tables . There 's no talk of boxing here . The fight is kept out of the restaurant , too . People are absent - mindedly eating while circling 15 numbers on a sheet of paper to play a game called keno . They hand the paper with the 15 numbers to women who walk around in miniskirts and high heels . Then they gaze at the wall to see which 15 numbers appear ; they 're looking for a winner . Several hundred people wait by the main entrance to Caesars . They stand in tribute , day and night , to America 's winners - any arriving celebrity . Climbing out of the Mercedes - Benzes , limousines , Jaguars and Porsches ( which are all parked in ostentatious glory near the entrance ) , the celebrities take only a moment to acknowledge the riffraff . The crowd parts quickly at the ominous sight of Wilt Chamberlain . People push forward for a glance at the bejeweled Joan Collins . Inside the hotel , body builders , oiled and pumped , carry a beautiful Egyptian queen in costume on their shoulders while other women wave palms to cool her . Really . At Caesars Palace , the gamblers are white men over 40 . In Caesars Palace they are Caesar 's court . Some dress in country - club pastels , others in tuxedos , and ever so casually flash $ 700 fight tickets stamped " compliments of the casino . " One man told me he was sent the tickets because he has a standing $ 50 , 000 line of credit with Caesars . He had just come away from the baccarat table where $ 10 , 000 to $ 20 , 000 passes in a flash . He had to walk past two steely - eyed guards who nodded at him and the other white men but remained grim to every other passerby , openly antagonistic to blacks and women . This is the place for the fight - a place of power and dominance . The fight will be held in an open - air stadium set up in the Caesars Palace parking lot . Past the casino , and past the pool that no one swims in , are three or four chain - link gates - entrances to an arena that holds 15 , 000 people . There 's a boxing ring in the middle surrounded by a few rows of press tables . Then a dozen rows of plastic bucket seats . Behind those seats , on all sides , rise grandstands with flat blue plastic planks set on metal girders . The scene is surprisingly Spartan , dominated by the wire fences , the criss - crossed bare metal poles that support the grandstands and the plain plastic seats . Past the small stadium is a one - story , plain metal building housing a section of bleachers and a bare , wooden stage . This is where the fighters ' weigh - in will be held , a theater where the champion traditionally enters last to signify his superiority . He is weighed last and remains on the stage after the challenger leaves . The champion is dominant . But it is a place for both fighters to strut and preen . The fighters know this is play - acting , but they also know it is really the fight 's opening round . They don 't want to lose in any arena to a man they will soon have to fight ; they want to keep the psychological advantage . Leonard appears first . He wears a white T - shirt , slacks and black leather boots . He appears as royalty amid many courtiers . His aides , his trainers , his bodyguards , his son and home - town television types like Glenn Brenner and Frank Herzog chatter , point and wave as they form a moving colony around him . In their midst is this little brown man , not very muscular , but regal . His bearing is formal . He keeps his eyes forward , never turning to talk or to acknowledge anyone . He doesn 't react when the cheering for his appearance is overwhelmed by booing from the packed bleachers . Only Leonard and his trainers are allowed past the security guards and onto the stage . A bald , husky - voiced old guy , waving a cigar , has warned a moment before that he " don 't mean to offend anyone , but no hangers - on " will be allowed on the stage , " no aunts , no uncles , no best friends , no nobody … " Now on the stage , Leonard begins to untie his leather boots . He does it slowly , then slides each foot out , deliberately and neatly taking off each sock . An aide rushes to take away the shoes the instant he is done . Then he stands and pulls down his pants , finally sitting to slip the legs over his feet . He has on black bikini underwear . With his T - shirt still on he walks over to the scales and mounts them , erect and expressionless . Several functionaries in three - piece suits rush over , bending to look at the numbers on the scale . Then they go away . Leonard remains , glorying in the reverence of his audience . Suddenly there is a roar . Hagler 's troops have emerged from behind the grandstand . In place of Leonard 's black bodyguards in sunglasses , Hagler has old white men in white sweaters next to him - his trainers . He walks quickly . And he looks like a bad dude : shaved head , scars on his face , dark sunglasses . He bounds up the steps to the stage . His shoes are white high - topped sneakers with Velcro wraps around the ankles . He pulls off his sneakers roughly , stands and strips off his pants , then pulls the zipper on his sweat jacket and throws it off . Now the psychological game is in bloom . I 've seen it on the streets , in bars , in office politics . Dominance can be established by the man who struts and commands all attention for himself . He takes his power from the obeisance of sycophants . He takes power from staring at his opponent until the opponent looks away . He takes power at a bar by simply pushing his whiskey glass toward the other man , claiming turf at the other man 's expense . This , then , is really the opening round of the Leonard - Hagler fight . Leonard , who had taken his seat while Hagler marched onstage , now remounts the scale and his weight is formally announced . Standing on the scale , he radiates calm and confidence . He raises his bands in victory . The cheers float over him . Hagler silences them . He steps in front of Leonard and flexes . His stomach and chest muscles move in a majestic symphony , his stomach muscles , especially , protruding in waves of defiant strength . Hagler - muscular , nude but for his bikini underwear - contrasts sharply with Leonard : flat , firm with few obvious muscles , his shirt on . The brazen intimidation intended by Hagler 's posturing brings raucous remarks from the crowd . Leonard gets off the scale . Hagler rushes to get on . In his hurt he forgets that he has left his socks on . An official asks him to take them off . It slows the bull 's charge . Hagler rips the socks off , flinging them away . On the scale Hagler looks over at Leonard and gives a thumbs - down signal . Leonard is dressing as Hagler lingers , on the scale . Hagler turns to him and stares . Leonard is by then bent down to pull his shoes on . Hagler continues staring , even pointing at Leonard as he walks away from the scale . Leonard stares back , but there still is no expression to his face . Round one to Hagler . He is the crowd 's favorite and has dominated the weigh - in ceremony . If this were the street , he would be " fronting , " sticking out his chest , swaggering and talking trash , insulting Leonard 's mother . But enough of the street . This is Las Vegas . This is Sugar Ray and Marvelous Marvin . We 're talking about tens of millions of dollars here , a boxing ring , a referee , judges and viewers worldwide . These men are professionals doing a job . When Hagler was deciding whether to retire or fight Leonard , he said his wife told him , " Why don 't you go ahead and get that little skinny bastard out of the way . " Leonard has had his passionate words , too . While Hagler walked around Las Vegas in a black hat with the word " War " on it , Leonard told reporters he was not going to war to beat Hagler . " I see it as a battle of will and wit , " said Leonard with a smile that made it clear that Hagler is a dummy . " He gets mad … , " Leonard explained to reporters . " Little things make him fed up … . He gets frustrated . " A dumb animal to be contained . After Hagler disappears from the weigh - in , a black man from Los Angeles wearing a gold - and - white sweat suit with red - and - white Fila athletic shoes and thick gold chains walks over to me . " Yeah , bro , it 's over , " he says . " You 've seen my man 's body - he 's going to kill that little Leonard . Sure enough going to detach that eye , maybe pop the whole thing out . " He says he knows people in Hagler 's camp , and they are joking about letting Leonard have a bigger ring ( 20 feet instead of 18 ) and letting Leonard set the bout at a 12 - round limit . " There won 't be no 12th round , " he says . " Ray will be lucky if there 's a second round . " The conversation stirs me . There is heat in his words . I have the desire to have intense moments like these fighters will have tonight , moments that inspire heat in other men 's words . Tonight the fighters ' world will be totally focused . Their minds and energies will be limited to that ring , to dominating the other man , to controlling their emotions . their fears . angers and desires , until the job is done . Today will be spent in pure anticipation of that moment . Today the fighters do nothing but wait ; they have gone without sex for weeks . They go without sex today . They lie in bed , watch TV , talk to no one . Hagler will eat two meals - first meatballs and spaghetti and then , in the afternoon , fish and salad . Leonard will eat one meal - chicken , corn bread and greens . Food doesn 't matter . Sex doesn 't matter . Nothing matters . They are waiting for their moment . One moment . The fight . This fight means more to the fighters than mere money . If Hagler wins he can claim to be the greatest middleweight . He has not been beaten in 37 fights over 11 years . If Leonard wins , he will go down in history as a fighter like no other , a welterweight and junior middleweight champion who came back after a three - year hiatus and beat the most ferocious middleweight of his day . The loser will still be able to say he was good , but the winner of this fight becomes a legend . In the language of the streets , he will become , for all time , a bad mother . In the restaurants . shapely women model tight sweater - skirt outfits , walking from table to table . Like automatons they repeat the name of the clothing , designer , the fabric and the colors available at a nearby shop . In the bars near - naked women serve drinks to tables crowded with men . Even outside , the streets are littered with ads for call - girls , pictures of practically nude women who for $ 150 will come to your hotel room . The casinos seem a blur . The dizzy spinning roulette wheel ; the rich men signaling for a light on thick cigars ; the gilded baubles on display at Gucci ( which is conveniently located a few feet from the casino ) ; the paintings in the coffee shop of black slaves serving overripe fruit . There are no politics in Las Vegas , just people luxuriating in acceptance of a world where the rich are the righteous , celebrity is a must , women are sex objects , and blacks are the gladiators . Those who are not beautiful or strong enough serve drinks , deal cards , tote luggage and eventually get out of town . All Monday , Las Vegas is frenzied . On the automatic walkway leading to Caesars Palace , a blonde Texan wearing red toenail polish under plastic high heels drops her highball and vomits . Baseball fans begin pushing and shoving as they stand in line for Willie Mays ' autograph . Bo Derek , Tony Danza , John Thompson , Telly Savalas , Timothy Hutton , Mark Gastineau , Gene Hackman - the sight of them sets off a rash of flashing bulbs outside the arena in the hour before the fight . Inside , a seating section to the right of the ring is reserved for celebrities only . The crowd is thick . The aisles of this small stadium cannot hold them . People are crushed together , moving a step at a time . The women are dressed for a White House dinner . They wear evening gowns and designer leather and big , shiny jewels . There are even some furs on this 50 - degree night . But you 've got to be dressed tonight . This is it . A big - time fight . I can 't believe I 'm really here . I feel the terror , the butterflies , the urge to hit , the sexual , primitive response to threat . Leonard comes out first . He is wearing a white satin jacket , with vents , an elastic band holding it snug to his waist . He dances around . He waits . Three minutes . Then the song " War " comes over the loudspeakers . Marvelous Mavin Hagler in black robe , hood up , marches through the arena and into the ring . High atop Caesars Palace an American flag begins to explode in a fireworks display . The flag starts coming apart . The exploding , crumbling flag , with its threat of starting a fire , is an excess on top of the excesses of Las Vegas , and it fascinates the crowd . Necks crane toward the flag . Meanwhile . Leonard dances over toward Hagler 's comer . It looks like a taunt . He is purposely riling Hagler . It is part of his fight plan . He comes back to Hagler 's comer once again and this time does a lightning - fast spin . Hagler watches . A jaguar watching a deer , waiting for him to come too close . The anthem is sung . The Pointer Sisters get out of the ring . The fight begins . Finally . Hagler smacks his red gloves against his bald head and stomps into the middle of the ring . For the first minute he stays there , Leonard circling him , throwing a few quick combinations . Hagler doesn 't throw a punch . Finally he punches at Leonard , who is immediately off at a run , pursued by Hagler . This exchange sets the style of the fight : Leonard running , Hagler pursuing , and occasionally catching Leonard on the ropes for a few quick seconds ( to the delight of the crowd ) before Leonard again slides off the ropes and resumes his run . As the round ends , Leonard , on the ropes , throws a flurry of punches at Hagler . This too becomes a pattern Leonard will follow throughout the fight . At every round 's end , he throws punches , flashy quick punches to Hagler 's head . My father once told me that in boxing it 's important to always get in the last punch . Your opponent will remember it , and the judges will have it in their minds as they score the round . Leonard looks incredibly sharp for a man who was knocked down in his last fight three years ago by a mediocre fighter named Kevin Howard . Leonard is spinning off the ropes , his legs look good and his combinations are crisp . And because Hagler is chasing him . Leonard is dictating the pace of the fight . The most important thing going on in these early rounds follows the rule from every bar - room fight - control your fear . Leonard is controlling his fear by controlling his opponent . He sets up Hagler . Hagler never sets up Leonard . Leonard can predict where Hagler will be - right in front of him . Hagler never knows where Leonard will be . Leonard 's fear , his uncertainty - all the talk he has heard about being out of the ring too long - is burning itself out . If he can control the other guy , there is no need to be scared ; there is no reason to have fear . Even while Leonard is fighting his fear , Hagler is fighting his anxiety . He wants to fight , slug it out , man - to - man with Leonard . But he knows Leonard 's reputation as a cunning opponent who sets traps for bigger , stronger , meaner fighters . Hagler does not want to fall into one of Leonard 's traps . So he waits in the center of the ring in the early minutes of the fight . He fights his impulse to bombard the slimmer Leonard . He doesn 't want to get tired before Leonard does . Leonard is gaining confidence by the moment . He sticks his chin out at Hagler . At the end of the fourth round he hits Hagler on the top of his bald head , leaving the judges with the memory of a flurry of punches . Leonard 's control of the early rounds infuriates Hagler . Talking trash is part of street - fighting . So it is in the ring . Anger your opponent , and he begins to flail , stops thinking . Leonard calls Hagler a sissy . He pushes Leonard into the ropes . He 's shouting , come on and fight me . This is Hagler 's game - anger , rage , fury . But even when Hagler backs him into the ropes , Leonard is in control , setting up Hagler . He continues to land his punches before Hagler can get going . Coming off the ropes . he 'll clamp Hagler 's right fist under his left arm and then walk into Hagler . Referee Richard Steele is slow to break them . Hagler isn 't complaining and he isn 't pushing Leonard off ; he 's stupidly pleased to have Leonard in one place , finally standing still , and now he 's trying to hit him . But the short shots have no leverage , and since Leonard is pushing him backward , there 's all the less power in the punches . In the streets , there is no benefit to dancing around your opponent unless you can hit him often enough to make him give up , quit . In the ring , the judges award points for dancing , for blows to the head , chest , stomach and kidneys . It really doesn 't matter how hard the punches are , just that they connect . No one can really tell how hard a punch is unless the fighter who gets hit reacts - that is , gets knocked down or gets knocked out . In the first four rounds Leonard simply out - points Hagler . He isn 't trying to knock him out , just to hit him , keep a glove in his face , frustrate him , while showing the judges that he can hit Hagler . My father once told me that fighting a bigger boy is like playing with fire . Fire , he said , can cook your dinner , light your home , warm you at night . It can also burn your house down and kill you . The key to controlling the fire is understanding its nature and working within that nature to achieve what you want to achieve . Leonard is handling Hagler like fire - being very careful not to get burned while using Hagler 's heat , his aggressive nature and bull - ahead charging tactics to defeat him . Can he do it for 12 rounds ? Hagler 's anxiety is growing . He wants to knock Leonard around , but he doesn 't want to fall into a trap . His indecision has cost him the first four rounds of the fight . In the fifth Hagler drops all pretense of strategy and begins an aggressive assault . Now Leonard is on the defensive . Hagler is crowding him , firing good body shots . Some miss , some hit , but more hit than ever before . At the round 's end Sugar Ray 's flurry isn 't there . Instead he is against the ropes trading punches with Hagler . A jab , then an uppercut catch Leonard . The crowd roars . Leonard counters , softly , and doesn 't move off the ropes . The bell rings . Leonard stumbles across the ring to get back to his comer . Hagler 's fire has been turned up and Leonard looks singed . The roar of the crowd says it smells knockout . " That 's it , next round he 's gone . " the man in front of me is screaming . Pain is a distraction . It clouds the mind . It invites confusion and , worse - it invites fear . Leonard has had his fear under control . Now , for the first time , Leonard 's handlers look concerned . Leonard 's eyes are far away as he sits on his stool . If he forgets his plan - if he 's hurt and unable to move , if he decides he has to prove himself by slugging it out with Hagler - this will be a short night . Angelo Dundee , Leonard 's trainer , is in his face , spittle flying , shouting through the haze . Stick and run , keep him punching at the angles , this is your night Ray , you 're winning Ray , you 're winning . Leonard is up before the bell and across the ring waiting for Hagler . In Round 6 , Hagler 's aggression returns . And so does Leonard 's fear . It never overwhelms him , though . At the round 's end Hagler has Leonard on the ropes , but he and Leonard are trading body shots . Leonard isn 't connecting with any power , though , and is busy fighting to stay on top of Hagler 's aggression . Some of Leonard 's movements look herky - jerky . But he still has his growing fear under control . The punch to the top of Hagler 's head at the end of the round is evidence that Leonard is in charge . Leonard 's behavior reminds me of the words of comedian Billy Crystal on " Saturday Night Live . " It 's not how you feel - it 's how you look . And Ray looks marvelous . Inside his head , he is fighting increasing fear and pain . But neither Hagler nor the judges see it . Leonard 's theatrical ability and will to win are keeping him alive . What a boxer ! By the ninth round , Hagler senses this fight has gone on too long . His corner looks panicky . They want him to take Leonard out - go to him and get him now . Hagler catches him against the ropes early on and looks to connect with the jab - the set - up for the bomb . He 's hitting Leonard but Leonard is keeping himself moving , twisting his body , moving his head and counter - punching . Hagler keeps coming . Against the ropes again , Leonard is hit with a good Hagler combination to the body . But he responds with a flurry of punches and , surprisingly , dances away . The crowd is roaring . This is the fight they came to see . Leonard 's face reveals a new thought as he sits in his comer at the end of the ninth . This fight has only three rounds to go . Leonard 's will is amazing . He 's tired . Hagler 's fire is coming on stronger . But from his heart , Leonard is working , continuing to fire combinations that have no power but nonetheless land , scoring punches . Leonard continues to keep his body at angles , thwarting the power of Hagler 's punches . Then , in a show of bravado that brings us back to " it 's not how how you feel , it 's how you look , " Leonard turns and postures with a bolo punch , taunting Hagler . Leonard is winning the fight of images . Even as the strength is draining from his body he is concealing his fear and exhaustion . Most important , Hagler , who clearly looks stronger and less fatigued , doesn 't sense Leonard 's fear and that increases his feeling of frustration at not having nailed him . Now Hagler begins to throw wild punches . Leonard catches him with a combination to the body . In the final round , Leonard continues to showboat . He comes off his stool with his hands raised in victory . He beckons for Hagler to come to the middle of the ring . He waves to the crowd , asking them to cheer him on . They do . He is controlling Hagler and the crowd . At the end he hits Hagler on the head . This round is Leonard 's , for mental and emotional strength . My score card shows Leonard a winner , seven rounds to five , He found a strategy to beat Hagler , he found the skill to execute it and the mental strength to keep to it . If a man makes his world , then Leonard made this fight follow his script , and he put on a classic boxing show . That brilliance was also in a sense the fight 's flaw . By the law of the streets a fight should scream violence - two men throwing their bodies at each other and the stronger , meaner man winning . In the street Leonard would not have been able to rely on a 12 - round limit or the judge 's scoring . He would do better to talk his way out of a disagreement with Mr . Hagler . By that standard this fight was polite , bloodless , a delight for the cognoscenti . It was evidence that brains and strategy can defeat brawn . As the final bell rings , Leonard raises his arms and walks around the ring . He understands that the fight is not over until he exults , shows he feels he has won . Then he falls to his knees in collapse . He is that tired . Hagler remains in his comer , his face cold and expressionless . I am standing with two other reporters . One has the fight dead even - a draw . The other has it as a win for Leonard . I do , too . A fan , a guy from San Antonio , walks over to me , asks me how I scored the fight . He says Leonard has not beaten Hagler badly enough to take away the title . All Leonard did was survive , hold and run and survive , he says . I agree . But I say my score card shows Leonard the winner of seven rounds of a 12 - round fight . The ring announcer comes to the microphone . " Ladies and gentlemen , " he says , " we have a split decision . Judge Dave Moretti scores it 115 - 113 Hagler . Judge Lou Filippo scores it 115 - 113 Leonard . And Judge Jo - Jo Guerra scores it 118 - 110 . The new … " But the fight isn 't over yet . In my neighborhood the fight itself was not as important as what people Had to say afterward . If the crowd believed the cops showed up too early , or somebody got a knife from one of his boys , then the decision could go either way . If the loser was robbed , he might as well be the winner . There is no doubt tonight . The talk is of Leonard 's " great performance " and " his strategy . " In the press room . Prentice Bird , who handles fighters , including Tommy Hearns , for the Kronk gym in Detroit , says Hagler is too old , his legs are " gone . " Jesse Jackson comes over to me and compares Leonard to Ali . Suddenly Leonard appears . He stands by the microphone , a sly grin on his face , and holds up a piece of paper . He reads off the names of sportswriters , all of whom had picked Hagler to win , then drops the paper ; Hagler called him names , Leonard says , shaking his head as a father does when disappointed with a child , but he knew Hagler was in trouble because Hagler gave away the first five rounds and would have had to get a knockout to win it . With the wave of an aristocrat , a man who has proven himself in some real , unquestionable way , he says , " No more questions … I have no more to say , gentlemen , " turns and leaves . His wife , Juanita , comes forward . She is wearing the green leather championship belt like a sash , slung over her shoulder , across her chest , the gold buckle lying between her breasts . She seems in a daze . She stands there as if she is the trophy . There she is - the winner 's woman . Half an hour later , Hagler unexpectedly walks out and sits in a chair on the stage . Usually , the losers disappear in emotional disrepair . Hagler hardly looks upset - he looks angry . " They took it away from me and gave it to Sugar Ray of all people , " he says . Boxing is politics and the people who run boxing don 't want him to retire as he had planned to do . The boxing money - men wanted Sugar Ray to win and it left him with a " bitter taste " in his mouth . He was the aggressor the whole fight - " You saw it " - and the bell saved Leonard three or four times . " He fought like a girl in there , " he says , waving his hand and insisting Leonard never hurt him . Pointing to the reporters , he says Leonard " told me himself - he said , ' You beat me . ' " Still Hagler keeps talking . He says he can 't believe he lost . He says when he wakes up in the morning , he 'll have to check to make sure this really happened . Hagler wants to talk more , but Bob Arum , the promoter , ends the press conference . I find one of Leonard 's entourage and ask if what Hagler said was true . He laughs . Leonard told Hagler , he says , that Hagler was still the middleweight champion . Ray doesn 't want to be the middleweight champion . He doesn 't want the belt , he says . " Hagler can be the champion - Ray is the superstar . " I feel sorry for Marvelous Marvin . He didn 't understand . Leonard made a passing comment and in his embarrassment Hagler has seized on it , even repeated it to the press , without understanding it . Leonard humiliated him . In the terms of a Brooklyn schoolyard fight , Leonard had " busted that mother . " Now the fight was really over . And it wasn 't even close . I 'm a fight fan and I suggested doing the story for the Washington Post 's Sunday magazine . It was a pleasure to write because I didn 't have to report the news , there was no hard deadline . I could take my time and explore my personal history with fighting . My father trained boxers . There 's a strange picture of me when I was young on the balcony in Panama . I 'm in white shoes , my fists cocked . That 's an odd thing for a father to do to a toddler but I think he was imparting what he knew to me . It 's not that he expected me to be a boxer . When I was four , my mother took my two siblings and me from Colon , Panama , to New York and my father didn 't join us until I was 10 . A few years later I went away to prep school so there were large gaps in my childhood when he wasn 't present . My brother and sister were 8 and 10 years older . We lived in the Ebbets Field Houses in Brooklyn - section 8 housing . I was the little guy , left behind , sitting alone on the stoop . I didn 't have neighborhood protection until later when I proved that I was good at basketball . Where I grew up fighting was a survival thing . I wasn 't a fighter by nature . Fear was the driving instinct , and fighting was about learning how to manage the fear . I just didn 't want to be crushed but I didn 't have the desire to dominate someone else . Getting hit when you practice had no appeal for me . Getting hit in the face even when head gear protects your skin from being torn is still getting hit in the face . It 's an unpleasant experience . As I wrote in this piece my father told me that fighting a bigger boy is like playing with fire . The crucial part is to control the fire and learn how to use it to your advantage . Which is partly why I identified with Leonard . Also , he was from the D . C . area , that 's where I was working , so he was a hometown guy . The central point of that fight , the heart and soul of the fight , was that Leonard had an effective strategy for fighting Hagler and Hagler had no strategy other than to knock Leonard out . He was the raging bull . It was the lion vs . an antelope . The perception of the fight may have changed over time but not in my mind . I don 't recall anyone saying at the time that Hagler got robbed . I can only see that being the case because Hagler was the aggressor and some people may feel that the one who was hitting harder should have won . But if you appreciate the beauty of the sport - who controls the fight - there is no question , at the end particularly , that Leonard was in control of the ring and of the fight .

Originally published in the May 17 , 1987 , edition of The Washington Post Magazine . Republished here with the author 's permission . His postscript follows . For more on Hagler - Leonard , check out Grantland 's oral history . I 'd never been to Las Vegas . Politicans , civil rights leaders , and thinkers , the people I usually write about , don 't often stop there . But it is the perfect place for a big fight , a town that reeks of dominance - rich over poor , white over black , male over female . White men with money come to Las Vegas to show that they have the power and the wealth that make losing a few grand over the weekend " no big deal . " They can buy the prettiest woman , the thickest steak and the biggest diamond ring . They can also buy two men to fight on a stage for their evening 's entertainment . Tonight it will be Marvelous Marvin Hagler and Sugar Ray Leonard . When I was a little boy , the one event I dreamed of seeing in person was a big prizefight . Other sports were on television or available to a kid who wanted to sell Cokes . The big fights were in exotic places like Zaire , the Philippines and Las Vegas . They were held in different time zones and came over the late - night radio as wire service reports at the end of each round . The late hour , the distant locale , the million - dollar prizes and my desire to be seen as sexually powerful - a man able to dominate another man as a cocky , proud prizefighter does in the ring - combined to transport me to a mythic place in my mind . Only prize - fighting could do that for me . And only prize - fighting salved my most basic fear - the fear of being beaten bloody . A prizefighter confronts this fear like no one else . It 's him alone , trapped in an elevated place , above the crowd and under hot lights . It 's him against another man who seeks to demolish him , and the judgment is absolute . Who is the better man ? Fight fans . and fighters use that phrase repeatedly : " The better man . " As in : " Leonard will try to outsmart Hagler but he won 't try to show he 's the better man . " The better man is the fighter who is the aggressor , who menaces his opponent and finally and conclusively batters him . Dominates him . Knocks him out . He can leave him unconscious , legs quivering , eyes rolling back . He can kill him . That is the better man . If I saw boxing for what it really is - just a business - I wouldn 't be interested . The passion is what captures me ; the passion coupled with the risk of defeat and failure as two men fight for all they are worth . Marvin Hagler of Newark and Sugar Ray Leonard of Palmer Park know the importance of looking tough , of appearing dominant and keeping that reputation . To Hagler and Leonard it matters that they be known as " the better man . " For me , a skinny boy growing up in a violent . poor neighborhood in Brooklyn , N . Y . to be " the better man " had real meaning . You had to fight . More than that , you had to be ready to fight . Walking down the street , in the schoolyard , on the basketball court , going to the store with your mother 's money - you had to be ready . I have a spot in my eye from a punch thrown by a big ninth - grader when I was in the seventh grade . On the handball court he told me to go get his ball and I wouldn 't . I never saw the punch . He didn 't knock me out or down , but I couldn 't see . I did manage to pick up the ball and windmill my arm as if I were throwing it back at him . When he ducked , I kicked him in the face and ran . I remember being a second - grader walking past a bunch of shrieking kids surrounding two third - graders who were fighting . The terror on the fighters ' faces heightened the fear in me . I didn 't want to be caught in that circle of howling , stupid people who wanted to see blood , to see one person reduced to tears or unconsciousness . At night when my mother made me take the garbage down the hallway to the trash room , I worried about someone attacking me . The trash room was next to the stairwell , where high school guys hung out , smoked and did drugs . Often the light bulb would be out - broken by someone who had been waiting to mug somebody . I was always scared and ready to fight . I didn 't want to fight . I made friends with Chuck , a fat but strong boy who was a feared street - fighter . Since Chuck and I were friends . I had an insurance policy , a personal bodyguard . My best friend , James , didn 't like to fight either . When he did fight , he usually lost . But because he would fight - and never backed down from a fight - he had a reputation as a tough guy and had fewer fights . I learned from his example . The prospect of fighting for me is still an emotional risk , though I 'm middle - class now and have a family and a job , and getting beat up does not hold the threat of defining me as an absolute loser . But fighting still has a hold on my primitive self and my emotions . If I have to fight , will I be the " better man , " and if I lose , what does that mean ? Am I the lesser man ? Do other people see me as shamed by submission , by the loss of face ? Will women know ? Would they want a lesser man ? These doubts attack my pride and unsettle my confidence , my sense of who l am - " the better man . " A professional fight stirs these feelings in me . Do you remember Tommy Hearns after his fight with Marvin Hagler ? A beaten man , he could get back to his feet only by hanging onto his trainers and his friends . He was dazed , his long arms hanging like spaghetti , his neck so limp that his head dangled . His eyes did not dilate . Finally , one of his friends picked him up and carried him like a father carries a baby . That was defeat - total physical wreckage . Worse , it was emotional wreckage . Hagler ran around the ring celebrating , thrusting his hands up , grabbing his crotch , smiling . His emotions were pumped . After fights , I 've seen some winning fighters stand on the ropes , making themselves taller , and scream - a throaty , visceral roar . They are alive . They are dominant . They are emotionally whole . The loser has no voice . This is a refinement over the street fight . Then when a man is down , while he 's out , the winner could kill him , sexually abuse him , take his woman , his possessions . That is emotional rape . Who will rape and who will be raped - emotionally - is the risk of fighting . My father trained fighters , men named Kid Chocolate and Finnegan who were the lightweight champions of South America . My father never fought professionally , but he was a fighter , too . He is a very handsome man with dazzling black eyes and a thick , long scar that cuts across his chest . The scar came from a knife . He was fighting a guy on the street and stepped back , away from a looping right hand . The punch missed . But my father felt a stinging sensation across his chest . The other guy had a knife in his fist with the blade sticking out . My father had other fights . He fought for money and food on board Navy ships that would pass through the Panama Canal . When he was in his forties he married my mother and began working as an accountant during the day for steady income . What defined him , however , was that he trained fighters . His picture would be on the sports pages of the papers as a fight trainer . His words were quoted . He rarely came home , but when he did , it was often with his fighters so they could eat my mother 's cooking . In one of the earliest pictures of me , I am standing in diapers , no shirt on , fists cocked . Across the way is my father in a fighting stance , crouched , on his toes , showing me the right way to get off a punch . He 's wearing baggy pants and two - tone brown - and - white shoes . My mother tells me he would take me , at age 2 , on training runs with his fighters . His favorite game with me when I was a baby was shadow - boxing . I was just 3 when my mother took me , my sister and my brother to Brooklyn . She worked in a sweatshop in the garment district in Manhattan , sewing dresses , while my father would send money to help out . My boxing lessons didn 't resume until he came to Brooklyn when I was about 10 . He was never home much , but sometimes he 'd show me combinations : how to slide and jab , how to get out of a corner . As I remember , we would do this in the mornings , and he wouldn 't have shaved yet . His beard would rake my face in the clinches . I would swoon when he butted me . And even with my guard up , the force of his punches would make them slide off my hands and land against my face . I hated getting hit in the face . I stopped asking him to show me moves . The lessons ended . Still , my love of boxing grew stronger . Muhammad Ali 's aura , his style , his poetry , his political activism drew me to him and the sport . The taunting of Frazier , the mugging with Howard Cosell ( grabbing his toupee ) - Ali was the greatest . When I was in college , I 'd go into Philadelphia once in a while to watch Monday night fights at the Spectrum . I 'd go alone . Those bouts were savage experiences , club fights pitting black against white , Cuban against Mexican , Boston against Philadelphia - inexpert boxers , many who had taken too many punches going at it for $ 100 . They exchanged roundhouse rights until one man fell . I had to get what I could from the papers about more skillful fighters . I tried to catch the good Saturday afternoon bouts on television , but there weren 't many good ones . Then Sugar Ray Leonard became popular . I 'd go out to the Capital Centre to watch his fights on the big screen . Once a guy took a swing at me when he heard me say Duran was winning the fight in Montreal . My friend Vernon decked him . I was getting closer but close wasn 't enough . I wanted to see the real thing up close - a true prizefight . Inside the Bally Grand Hotel in Las Vegas is a huge mirrored wall . Plastered on the mirror are 20 - foot - high profiles of Leonard and Hagler , their heads and chests almost touching . These profiles have no eyes , no expression , and the men are face to face as if ready to explode into combat . Hanging above the clatter and bells of the vast casino floor are big purple gloves with the fighters ' names written in fancy script . On the wide - screen television sets in the bar , they 're showing reruns of previous fights . The big - time fight hoopla doesn 't go past the bar . It does not intrude on the green felt of the gambling tables . There 's no talk of boxing here . The fight is kept out of the restaurant , too . People are absent - mindedly eating while circling 15 numbers on a sheet of paper to play a game called keno . They hand the paper with the 15 numbers to women who walk around in miniskirts and high heels . Then they gaze at the wall to see which 15 numbers appear ; they 're looking for a winner . Several hundred people wait by the main entrance to Caesars . They stand in tribute , day and night , to America 's winners - any arriving celebrity . Climbing out of the Mercedes - Benzes , limousines , Jaguars and Porsches ( which are all parked in ostentatious glory near the entrance ) , the celebrities take only a moment to acknowledge the riffraff . The crowd parts quickly at the ominous sight of Wilt Chamberlain . People push forward for a glance at the bejeweled Joan Collins . Inside the hotel , body builders , oiled and pumped , carry a beautiful Egyptian queen in costume on their shoulders while other women wave palms to cool her . Really . At Caesars Palace , the gamblers are white men over 40 . In Caesars Palace they are Caesar 's court . Some dress in country - club pastels , others in tuxedos , and ever so casually flash $ 700 fight tickets stamped " compliments of the casino . " One man told me he was sent the tickets because he has a standing $ 50 , 000 line of credit with Caesars . He had just come away from the baccarat table where $ 10 , 000 to $ 20 , 000 passes in a flash . He had to walk past two steely - eyed guards who nodded at him and the other white men but remained grim to every other passerby , openly antagonistic to blacks and women . This is the place for the fight - a place of power and dominance . The fight will be held in an open - air stadium set up in the Caesars Palace parking lot . Past the casino , and past the pool that no one swims in , are three or four chain - link gates - entrances to an arena that holds 15 , 000 people . There 's a boxing ring in the middle surrounded by a few rows of press tables . Then a dozen rows of plastic bucket seats . Behind those seats , on all sides , rise grandstands with flat blue plastic planks set on metal girders . The scene is surprisingly Spartan , dominated by the wire fences , the criss - crossed bare metal poles that support the grandstands and the plain plastic seats . Past the small stadium is a one - story , plain metal building housing a section of bleachers and a bare , wooden stage . This is where the fighters ' weigh - in will be held , a theater where the champion traditionally enters last to signify his superiority . He is weighed last and remains on the stage after the challenger leaves . The champion is dominant . But it is a place for both fighters to strut and preen . The fighters know this is play - acting , but they also know it is really the fight 's opening round . They don 't want to lose in any arena to a man they will soon have to fight ; they want to keep the psychological advantage . Leonard appears first . He wears a white T - shirt , slacks and black leather boots . He appears as royalty amid many courtiers . His aides , his trainers , his bodyguards , his son and home - town television types like Glenn Brenner and Frank Herzog chatter , point and wave as they form a moving colony around him . In their midst is this little brown man , not very muscular , but regal . His bearing is formal . He keeps his eyes forward , never turning to talk or to acknowledge anyone . He doesn 't react when the cheering for his appearance is overwhelmed by booing from the packed bleachers . Only Leonard and his trainers are allowed past the security guards and onto the stage . A bald , husky - voiced old guy , waving a cigar , has warned a moment before that he " don 't mean to offend anyone , but no hangers - on " will be allowed on the stage , " no aunts , no uncles , no best friends , no nobody … " Now on the stage , Leonard begins to untie his leather boots . He does it slowly , then slides each foot out , deliberately and neatly taking off each sock . An aide rushes to take away the shoes the instant he is done . Then he stands and pulls down his pants , finally sitting to slip the legs over his feet . He has on black bikini underwear . With his T - shirt still on he walks over to the scales and mounts them , erect and expressionless . Several functionaries in three - piece suits rush over , bending to look at the numbers on the scale . Then they go away . Leonard remains , glorying in the reverence of his audience . Suddenly there is a roar . Hagler 's troops have emerged from behind the grandstand . In place of Leonard 's black bodyguards in sunglasses , Hagler has old white men in white sweaters next to him - his trainers . He walks quickly . And he looks like a bad dude : shaved head , scars on his face , dark sunglasses . He bounds up the steps to the stage . His shoes are white high - topped sneakers with Velcro wraps around the ankles . He pulls off his sneakers roughly , stands and strips off his pants , then pulls the zipper on his sweat jacket and throws it off . Now the psychological game is in bloom . I 've seen it on the streets , in bars , in office politics . Dominance can be established by the man who struts and commands all attention for himself . He takes his power from the obeisance of sycophants . He takes power from staring at his opponent until the opponent looks away . He takes power at a bar by simply pushing his whiskey glass toward the other man , claiming turf at the other man 's expense . This , then , is really the opening round of the Leonard - Hagler fight . Leonard , who had taken his seat while Hagler marched onstage , now remounts the scale and his weight is formally announced . Standing on the scale , he radiates calm and confidence . He raises his bands in victory . The cheers float over him . Hagler silences them . He steps in front of Leonard and flexes . His stomach and chest muscles move in a majestic symphony , his stomach muscles , especially , protruding in waves of defiant strength . Hagler - muscular , nude but for his bikini underwear - contrasts sharply with Leonard : flat , firm with few obvious muscles , his shirt on . The brazen intimidation intended by Hagler 's posturing brings raucous remarks from the crowd . Leonard gets off the scale . Hagler rushes to get on . In his hurt he forgets that he has left his socks on . An official asks him to take them off . It slows the bull 's charge . Hagler rips the socks off , flinging them away . On the scale Hagler looks over at Leonard and gives a thumbs - down signal . Leonard is dressing as Hagler lingers , on the scale . Hagler turns to him and stares . Leonard is by then bent down to pull his shoes on . Hagler continues staring , even pointing at Leonard as he walks away from the scale . Leonard stares back , but there still is no expression to his face . Round one to Hagler . He is the crowd 's favorite and has dominated the weigh - in ceremony . If this were the street , he would be " fronting , " sticking out his chest , swaggering and talking trash , insulting Leonard 's mother . But enough of the street . This is Las Vegas . This is Sugar Ray and Marvelous Marvin . We 're talking about tens of millions of dollars here , a boxing ring , a referee , judges and viewers worldwide . These men are professionals doing a job . When Hagler was deciding whether to retire or fight Leonard , he said his wife told him , " Why don 't you go ahead and get that little skinny bastard out of the way . " Leonard has had his passionate words , too . While Hagler walked around Las Vegas in a black hat with the word " War " on it , Leonard told reporters he was not going to war to beat Hagler . " I see it as a battle of will and wit , " said Leonard with a smile that made it clear that Hagler is a dummy . " He gets mad … , " Leonard explained to reporters . " Little things make him fed up … . He gets frustrated . " A dumb animal to be contained . After Hagler disappears from the weigh - in , a black man from Los Angeles wearing a gold - and - white sweat suit with red - and - white Fila athletic shoes and thick gold chains walks over to me . " Yeah , bro , it 's over , " he says . " You 've seen my man 's body - he 's going to kill that little Leonard . Sure enough going to detach that eye , maybe pop the whole thing out . " He says he knows people in Hagler 's camp , and they are joking about letting Leonard have a bigger ring ( 20 feet instead of 18 ) and letting Leonard set the bout at a 12 - round limit . " There won 't be no 12th round , " he says . " Ray will be lucky if there 's a second round . " The conversation stirs me . There is heat in his words . I have the desire to have intense moments like these fighters will have tonight , moments that inspire heat in other men 's words . Tonight the fighters ' world will be totally focused . Their minds and energies will be limited to that ring , to dominating the other man , to controlling their emotions . their fears . angers and desires , until the job is done . Today will be spent in pure anticipation of that moment . Today the fighters do nothing but wait ; they have gone without sex for weeks . They go without sex today . They lie in bed , watch TV , talk to no one . Hagler will eat two meals - first meatballs and spaghetti and then , in the afternoon , fish and salad . Leonard will eat one meal - chicken , corn bread and greens . Food doesn 't matter . Sex doesn 't matter . Nothing matters . They are waiting for their moment . One moment . The fight . This fight means more to the fighters than mere money . If Hagler wins he can claim to be the greatest middleweight . He has not been beaten in 37 fights over 11 years . If Leonard wins , he will go down in history as a fighter like no other , a welterweight and junior middleweight champion who came back after a three - year hiatus and beat the most ferocious middleweight of his day . The loser will still be able to say he was good , but the winner of this fight becomes a legend . In the language of the streets , he will become , for all time , a bad mother . In the restaurants . shapely women model tight sweater - skirt outfits , walking from table to table . Like automatons they repeat the name of the clothing , designer , the fabric and the colors available at a nearby shop . In the bars near - naked women serve drinks to tables crowded with men . Even outside , the streets are littered with ads for call - girls , pictures of practically nude women who for $ 150 will come to your hotel room . The casinos seem a blur . The dizzy spinning roulette wheel ; the rich men signaling for a light on thick cigars ; the gilded baubles on display at Gucci ( which is conveniently located a few feet from the casino ) ; the paintings in the coffee shop of black slaves serving overripe fruit . There are no politics in Las Vegas , just people luxuriating in acceptance of a world where the rich are the righteous , celebrity is a must , women are sex objects , and blacks are the gladiators . Those who are not beautiful or strong enough serve drinks , deal cards , tote luggage and eventually get out of town . All Monday , Las Vegas is frenzied . On the automatic walkway leading to Caesars Palace , a blonde Texan wearing red toenail polish under plastic high heels drops her highball and vomits . Baseball fans begin pushing and shoving as they stand in line for Willie Mays ' autograph . Bo Derek , Tony Danza , John Thompson , Telly Savalas , Timothy Hutton , Mark Gastineau , Gene Hackman - the sight of them sets off a rash of flashing bulbs outside the arena in the hour before the fight . Inside , a seating section to the right of the ring is reserved for celebrities only . The crowd is thick . The aisles of this small stadium cannot hold them . People are crushed together , moving a step at a time . The women are dressed for a White House dinner . They wear evening gowns and designer leather and big , shiny jewels . There are even some furs on this 50 - degree night . But you 've got to be dressed tonight . This is it . A big - time fight . I can 't believe I 'm really here . I feel the terror , the butterflies , the urge to hit , the sexual , primitive response to threat . Leonard comes out first . He is wearing a white satin jacket , with vents , an elastic band holding it snug to his waist . He dances around . He waits . Three minutes . Then the song " War " comes over the loudspeakers . Marvelous Mavin Hagler in black robe , hood up , marches through the arena and into the ring . High atop Caesars Palace an American flag begins to explode in a fireworks display . The flag starts coming apart . The exploding , crumbling flag , with its threat of starting a fire , is an excess on top of the excesses of Las Vegas , and it fascinates the crowd . Necks crane toward the flag . Meanwhile . Leonard dances over toward Hagler 's comer . It looks like a taunt . He is purposely riling Hagler . It is part of his fight plan . He comes back to Hagler 's comer once again and this time does a lightning - fast spin . Hagler watches . A jaguar watching a deer , waiting for him to come too close . The anthem is sung . The Pointer Sisters get out of the ring . The fight begins . Finally . Hagler smacks his red gloves against his bald head and stomps into the middle of the ring . For the first minute he stays there , Leonard circling him , throwing a few quick combinations . Hagler doesn 't throw a punch . Finally he punches at Leonard , who is immediately off at a run , pursued by Hagler . This exchange sets the style of the fight : Leonard running , Hagler pursuing , and occasionally catching Leonard on the ropes for a few quick seconds ( to the delight of the crowd ) before Leonard again slides off the ropes and resumes his run . As the round ends , Leonard , on the ropes , throws a flurry of punches at Hagler . This too becomes a pattern Leonard will follow throughout the fight . At every round 's end , he throws punches , flashy quick punches to Hagler 's head . My father once told me that in boxing it 's important to always get in the last punch . Your opponent will remember it , and the judges will have it in their minds as they score the round . Leonard looks incredibly sharp for a man who was knocked down in his last fight three years ago by a mediocre fighter named Kevin Howard . Leonard is spinning off the ropes , his legs look good and his combinations are crisp . And because Hagler is chasing him . Leonard is dictating the pace of the fight . The most important thing going on in these early rounds follows the rule from every bar - room fight - control your fear . Leonard is controlling his fear by controlling his opponent . He sets up Hagler . Hagler never sets up Leonard . Leonard can predict where Hagler will be - right in front of him . Hagler never knows where Leonard will be . Leonard 's fear , his uncertainty - all the talk he has heard about being out of the ring too long - is burning itself out . If he can control the other guy , there is no need to be scared ; there is no reason to have fear . Even while Leonard is fighting his fear , Hagler is fighting his anxiety . He wants to fight , slug it out , man - to - man with Leonard . But he knows Leonard 's reputation as a cunning opponent who sets traps for bigger , stronger , meaner fighters . Hagler does not want to fall into one of Leonard 's traps . So he waits in the center of the ring in the early minutes of the fight . He fights his impulse to bombard the slimmer Leonard . He doesn 't want to get tired before Leonard does . Leonard is gaining confidence by the moment . He sticks his chin out at Hagler . At the end of the fourth round he hits Hagler on the top of his bald head , leaving the judges with the memory of a flurry of punches . Leonard 's control of the early rounds infuriates Hagler . Talking trash is part of street - fighting . So it is in the ring . Anger your opponent , and he begins to flail , stops thinking . Leonard calls Hagler a sissy . He pushes Leonard into the ropes . He 's shouting , come on and fight me . This is Hagler 's game - anger , rage , fury . But even when Hagler backs him into the ropes , Leonard is in control , setting up Hagler . He continues to land his punches before Hagler can get going . Coming off the ropes . he 'll clamp Hagler 's right fist under his left arm and then walk into Hagler . Referee Richard Steele is slow to break them . Hagler isn 't complaining and he isn 't pushing Leonard off ; he 's stupidly pleased to have Leonard in one place , finally standing still , and now he 's trying to hit him . But the short shots have no leverage , and since Leonard is pushing him backward , there 's all the less power in the punches . In the streets , there is no benefit to dancing around your opponent unless you can hit him often enough to make him give up , quit . In the ring , the judges award points for dancing , for blows to the head , chest , stomach and kidneys . It really doesn 't matter how hard the punches are , just that they connect . No one can really tell how hard a punch is unless the fighter who gets hit reacts - that is , gets knocked down or gets knocked out . In the first four rounds Leonard simply out - points Hagler . He isn 't trying to knock him out , just to hit him , keep a glove in his face , frustrate him , while showing the judges that he can hit Hagler . My father once told me that fighting a bigger boy is like playing with fire . Fire , he said , can cook your dinner , light your home , warm you at night . It can also burn your house down and kill you . The key to controlling the fire is understanding its nature and working within that nature to achieve what you want to achieve . Leonard is handling Hagler like fire - being very careful not to get burned while using Hagler 's heat , his aggressive nature and bull - ahead charging tactics to defeat him . Can he do it for 12 rounds ? Hagler 's anxiety is growing . He wants to knock Leonard around , but he doesn 't want to fall into a trap . His indecision has cost him the first four rounds of the fight . In the fifth Hagler drops all pretense of strategy and begins an aggressive assault . Now Leonard is on the defensive . Hagler is crowding him , firing good body shots . Some miss , some hit , but more hit than ever before . At the round 's end Sugar Ray 's flurry isn 't there . Instead he is against the ropes trading punches with Hagler . A jab , then an uppercut catch Leonard . The crowd roars . Leonard counters , softly , and doesn 't move off the ropes . The bell rings . Leonard stumbles across the ring to get back to his comer . Hagler 's fire has been turned up and Leonard looks singed . The roar of the crowd says it smells knockout . " That 's it , next round he 's gone . " the man in front of me is screaming . Pain is a distraction . It clouds the mind . It invites confusion and , worse - it invites fear . Leonard has had his fear under control . Now , for the first time , Leonard 's handlers look concerned . Leonard 's eyes are far away as he sits on his stool . If he forgets his plan - if he 's hurt and unable to move , if he decides he has to prove himself by slugging it out with Hagler - this will be a short night . Angelo Dundee , Leonard 's trainer , is in his face , spittle flying , shouting through the haze . Stick and run , keep him punching at the angles , this is your night Ray , you 're winning Ray , you 're winning . Leonard is up before the bell and across the ring waiting for Hagler . In Round 6 , Hagler 's aggression returns . And so does Leonard 's fear . It never overwhelms him , though . At the round 's end Hagler has Leonard on the ropes , but he and Leonard are trading body shots . Leonard isn 't connecting with any power , though , and is busy fighting to stay on top of Hagler 's aggression . Some of Leonard 's movements look herky - jerky . But he still has his growing fear under control . The punch to the top of Hagler 's head at the end of the round is evidence that Leonard is in charge . Leonard 's behavior reminds me of the words of comedian Billy Crystal on " Saturday Night Live . " It 's not how you feel - it 's how you look . And Ray looks marvelous . Inside his head , he is fighting increasing fear and pain . But neither Hagler nor the judges see it . Leonard 's theatrical ability and will to win are keeping him alive . What a boxer ! By the ninth round , Hagler senses this fight has gone on too long . His corner looks panicky . They want him to take Leonard out - go to him and get him now . Hagler catches him against the ropes early on and looks to connect with the jab - the set - up for the bomb . He 's hitting Leonard but Leonard is keeping himself moving , twisting his body , moving his head and counter - punching . Hagler keeps coming . Against the ropes again , Leonard is hit with a good Hagler combination to the body . But he responds with a flurry of punches and , surprisingly , dances away . The crowd is roaring . This is the fight they came to see . Leonard 's face reveals a new thought as he sits in his comer at the end of the ninth . This fight has only three rounds to go . Leonard 's will is amazing . He 's tired . Hagler 's fire is coming on stronger . But from his heart , Leonard is working , continuing to fire combinations that have no power but nonetheless land , scoring punches . Leonard continues to keep his body at angles , thwarting the power of Hagler 's punches . Then , in a show of bravado that brings us back to " it 's not how how you feel , it 's how you look , " Leonard turns and postures with a bolo punch , taunting Hagler . Leonard is winning the fight of images . Even as the strength is draining from his body he is concealing his fear and exhaustion . Most important , Hagler , who clearly looks stronger and less fatigued , doesn 't sense Leonard 's fear and that increases his feeling of frustration at not having nailed him . Now Hagler begins to throw wild punches . Leonard catches him with a combination to the body . In the final round , Leonard continues to showboat . He comes off his stool with his hands raised in victory . He beckons for Hagler to come to the middle of the ring . He waves to the crowd , asking them to cheer him on . They do . He is controlling Hagler and the crowd . At the end he hits Hagler on the head . This round is Leonard 's , for mental and emotional strength . My score card shows Leonard a winner , seven rounds to five , He found a strategy to beat Hagler , he found the skill to execute it and the mental strength to keep to it . If a man makes his world , then Leonard made this fight follow his script , and he put on a classic boxing show . That brilliance was also in a sense the fight 's flaw . By the law of the streets a fight should scream violence - two men throwing their bodies at each other and the stronger , meaner man winning . In the street Leonard would not have been able to rely on a 12 - round limit or the judge 's scoring . He would do better to talk his way out of a disagreement with Mr . Hagler . By that standard this fight was polite , bloodless , a delight for the cognoscenti . It was evidence that brains and strategy can defeat brawn . As the final bell rings , Leonard raises his arms and walks around the ring . He understands that the fight is not over until he exults , shows he feels he has won . Then he falls to his knees in collapse . He is that tired . Hagler remains in his comer , his face cold and expressionless . I am standing with two other reporters . One has the fight dead even - a draw . The other has it as a win for Leonard . I do , too . A fan , a guy from San Antonio , walks over to me , asks me how I scored the fight . He says Leonard has not beaten Hagler badly enough to take away the title . All Leonard did was survive , hold and run and survive , he says . I agree . But I say my score card shows Leonard the winner of seven rounds of a 12 - round fight . The ring announcer comes to the microphone . " Ladies and gentlemen , " he says , " we have a split decision . Judge Dave Moretti scores it 115 - 113 Hagler . Judge Lou Filippo scores it 115 - 113 Leonard . And Judge Jo - Jo Guerra scores it 118 - 110 . The new … " But the fight isn 't over yet . In my neighborhood the fight itself was not as important as what people Had to say afterward . If the crowd believed the cops showed up too early , or somebody got a knife from one of his boys , then the decision could go either way . If the loser was robbed , he might as well be the winner . There is no doubt tonight . The talk is of Leonard 's " great performance " and " his strategy . " In the press room . Prentice Bird , who handles fighters , including Tommy Hearns , for the Kronk gym in Detroit , says Hagler is too old , his legs are " gone . " Jesse Jackson comes over to me and compares Leonard to Ali . Suddenly Leonard appears . He stands by the microphone , a sly grin on his face , and holds up a piece of paper . He reads off the names of sportswriters , all of whom had picked Hagler to win , then drops the paper ; Hagler called him names , Leonard says , shaking his head as a father does when disappointed with a child , but he knew Hagler was in trouble because Hagler gave away the first five rounds and would have had to get a knockout to win it . With the wave of an aristocrat , a man who has proven himself in some real , unquestionable way , he says , " No more questions … I have no more to say , gentlemen , " turns and leaves . His wife , Juanita , comes forward . She is wearing the green leather championship belt like a sash , slung over her shoulder , across her chest , the gold buckle lying between her breasts . She seems in a daze . She stands there as if she is the trophy . There she is - the winner 's woman . Half an hour later , Hagler unexpectedly walks out and sits in a chair on the stage . Usually , the losers disappear in emotional disrepair . Hagler hardly looks upset - he looks angry . " They took it away from me and gave it to Sugar Ray of all people , " he says . Boxing is politics and the people who run boxing don 't want him to retire as he had planned to do . The boxing money - men wanted Sugar Ray to win and it left him with a " bitter taste " in his mouth . He was the aggressor the whole fight - " You saw it " - and the bell saved Leonard three or four times . " He fought like a girl in there , " he says , waving his hand and insisting Leonard never hurt him . Pointing to the reporters , he says Leonard " told me himself - he said , ' You beat me . ' " Still Hagler keeps talking . He says he can 't believe he lost . He says when he wakes up in the morning , he 'll have to check to make sure this really happened . Hagler wants to talk more , but Bob Arum , the promoter , ends the press conference . I find one of Leonard 's entourage and ask if what Hagler said was true . He laughs . Leonard told Hagler , he says , that Hagler was still the middleweight champion . Ray doesn 't want to be the middleweight champion . He doesn 't want the belt , he says . " Hagler can be the champion - Ray is the superstar . " I feel sorry for Marvelous Marvin . He didn 't understand . Leonard made a passing comment and in his embarrassment Hagler has seized on it , even repeated it to the press , without understanding it . Leonard humiliated him . In the terms of a Brooklyn schoolyard fight , Leonard had " busted that mother . " Now the fight was really over . And it wasn 't even close . I 'm a fight fan and I suggested doing the story for the Washington Post 's Sunday magazine . It was a pleasure to write because I didn 't have to report the news , there was no hard deadline . I could take my time and explore my personal history with fighting . My father trained boxers . There 's a strange picture of me when I was young on the balcony in Panama . I 'm in white shoes , my fists cocked . That 's an odd thing for a father to do to a toddler but I think he was imparting what he knew to me . It 's not that he expected me to be a boxer . When I was four , my mother took my two siblings and me from Colon , Panama , to New York and my father didn 't join us until I was 10 . A few years later I went away to prep school so there were large gaps in my childhood when he wasn 't present . My brother and sister were 8 and 10 years older . We lived in the Ebbets Field Houses in Brooklyn - section 8 housing . I was the little guy , left behind , sitting alone on the stoop . I didn 't have neighborhood protection until later when I proved that I was good at basketball . Where I grew up fighting was a survival thing . I wasn 't a fighter by nature . Fear was the driving instinct , and fighting was about learning how to manage the fear . I just didn 't want to be crushed but I didn 't have the desire to dominate someone else . Getting hit when you practice had no appeal for me . Getting hit in the face even when head gear protects your skin from being torn is still getting hit in the face . It 's an unpleasant experience . As I wrote in this piece my father told me that fighting a bigger boy is like playing with fire . The crucial part is to control the fire and learn how to use it to your advantage . Which is partly why I identified with Leonard . Also , he was from the D . C . area , that 's where I was working , so he was a hometown guy . The central point of that fight , the heart and soul of the fight , was that Leonard had an effective strategy for fighting Hagler and Hagler had no strategy other than to knock Leonard out . He was the raging bull . It was the lion vs . an antelope . The perception of the fight may have changed over time but not in my mind . I don 't recall anyone saying at the time that Hagler got robbed . I can only see that being the case because Hagler was the aggressor and some people may feel that the one who was hitting harder should have won . But if you appreciate the beauty of the sport - who controls the fight - there is no question , at the end particularly , that Leonard was in control of the ring and of the fight .

The O . C . premiered on August 5 , 2003 and ended on February 22 , 2007 . Or May 18 , 2006 if you like to pretend that the fourth season never happened ( a lot of people do , it 's okay ) . The O . C . not only introduced a lot of people to some fantastic music through its heavily bought mix tapes ( this is before YouTube , Spotify , & Apple Music ) , it also created Chrismukkah , and inspired a decades worth of ' THE REAL ' reality shows . Not sure what I mean by that ? Well The O . C . prompted the reality show Laguna Beach : The Real O . C . , and a thousand other spinoffs to it . The catch phrase ' The Real O . C . ' morphed into The Real Housewives of fill in the blank rich people cities . Needless to say , despite its shortcomings , The O . C . had some great writing , a fantastic soundtrack , and truly inspired a generation worth of TV , for better or worse . The O . C . is the only TV show I own on box set . I haven 't watched it in awhile , so why don 't we watch it together ? Whether you 're new to The O . C . ( you can stream it on Hulu ) or a long time fan , it 's a show anyone with a love for the dramatic can enjoy . Ya 'll ready for a dramatic AF episode ? Seth and Ryan are discussing alibis which isn 't a good sign . Seth says he goes to San Diego Comic - Con every year so it 's the perfect cover up , his parents will never guess where they are really going . Where is that ? TO TJ OF COURSE ! As The OC kids call it anyway … in plain people speak they mean Tijuana , Mexico . One last hurrah before school starts in the fall . Apparently it 's a tradition for the cool kids and now that Seth has made out with Summer he is dying to go as well . Ryan doesn 't feel comfortable lying to Seth 's parents and he also doesn 't want to run into Marissa , so he 's not really into the idea . Sandy walks into the kitchen all dressed up for his an annual job interview . It 's with a private law firm and he always gets a great meal out of it which is why he goes , but he turns them down each time because he loves his work as a public defender . Never say never . Sandy : " How long until you two are leaving on your trip ? " It 's like Seth is trying to get caught going to Mexico . At Marissa 's house , Marissa and Summer talk about plans for Tijuana . Summer wants the deets on Marissa and Luke 's hook up . Summer says she should just have sex with him again because it 's way better the second time . Because Summer obviously has lots of experience with sex … . or so she says . Jimmy is on the phone trying to get an apartment ready for him to move into . He is clearly distressed and has not told his kids that he and Julie are getting a divorce . He goes over to Kirsten 's to ask if she knows anyone who can get him a place to live . She says she 'll call her realtor . Later , Marissa and Luke are making out and he says he can 't wait to go to Tijuana because it 's so romantic . Marissa says it 's gross there . She 's not wrong . Why are they all going to Tijuana again ? I guess because they can drink legally there ? Marissa says she 's not sure about TJ ( AKA Tijuana . God why do they call it that ? ? ) . She isn 't sure about leaving her Dad alone because she can tell something is wrong . Luke is all mad because she 's backing out of their fuck fest in TJ for her Dad , because Luke 's capacity for empathy is about as tiny as his dick is . At Ryan 's work , Seth is talking to Ryan about his kiss with Summer . Luke and Marissa walk in and Luke grabs a table so Marissa and Ryan can hey at each other . Ryan asks her how she is and she says last time she saw him he had his hands full of a 24 year old 's ass . Why do you care Marissa ? You 're with Luke now , remember ? She goes to sit with Luke , Summer , and Holly . She and Holly awkwardly say hi . Things are still not quite right since her dad beat up her dad . Or whatever . Also that time Holly secretly made out with Luke a lot while they were still kind of dating . Marissa tells the gang that she 's baking out of going to TJ . From the bar , Seth is eavesdropping on the group . Summer doesn 't have a ride without Marissa and she is totally bummed . Meanwhile , behind a fish tank , Holly tries to get Luke to cheat on Marissa with her in TJ . Ryan gives them the ' eye ' and Luke pretends he was just checking out the clown fish . Seth gets up to invite Summer to drive with him and Ryan to TJ . She gives him a ' who the hell are you , I don 't remember making out with you ' look . The next day Summer arrives in front of the Cohens with a million bags , ready to hit the road with Ryan and Seth . Sandy comes out to introduce himself saying he didn 't know she was into comic con . Summer goes to say goodbye to Marissa , and when Jimmy asks why she 's still there she says she wanted to spend time with him . Jimmy makes up an excuse that he made plans so he can 't hang out and suddenly Marissa is going to TJ with Summer , Seth , and Ryan . Kirsten helps Jimmy paint his apartment . Kirsten is very sympathetic to Jimmy 's situation . She presses him to call Marissa because if she comes home and he 's not there , she 's going to be really upset . Summer and Seth are fighting over music , directions , and when they 'll arrive . Just about everything . They 're practically already married at this point . Summer : " Somebody drives like an old woman . " Summer has a point . Seth decides he 's going to pull over and drop Summer off and he pulls haphazardly into a ditch . The gang has to stay in a hotel room overnight until the axle in the car is fixed . Outside the disgusting hotel where they 've had to all stop for the night , Ryan is at the vending machines with Marissa who has not stopped being a bitch to him . He asks if she 's ever going to stop being mad at him , and she says she 's not mad at him . Yeah , okay Marissa . He tells her she could have knocked first before she barged into the pool house catching him and Gabriella in the act . Oh sizzle that sexual tension . Sizzle . Summer comes out in her pajamas which look like a victoria secret 's ad . She tells Seth to get off the bed because she isn 't sleeping on the couch . Seth refuses and she gets in next to him telling him if he makes a move she 'll rip out his jugular . Marissa gets a phone call from her Dad telling her about the divorce . Ryan listens through the slightly open hotel door . Ryan and Marissa go to sleep on opposite sides of the fold out couch but when they wake up in the morning his arms are wrapped around her . He asks if she wants to go home , but she thinks they should go anyway . Summer and Seth are at a diner having breakfast and are being mirrors of each other while reading the newspaper and eating . He says that she enjoys his company . She denies it . The gang make it to TJ and Summer needs to stop at the pharmacy so she can get some painkillers for her step mom who has taken all the painkillers available in Orange County . Hang tight on the pain pills , we will see them again soon . At Sandy 's interview he sees Rachel , a hot lawyer who used to work with him at the DA 's office . I guess she works for this company he 's interviewing with now . They start insta - flirting and it 's easy to sense a future marital problem ! The company is impressed with how he helped out Jimmy Cooper , and they 're hoping he might be able to come off his high horse and work for them now that he 's helped a rich person . Sandy comes back from grocery shopping and Kirsten is checking mail in the kitchen . He see 's a new surfboard with a bow on it and finds out it 's from Rachel at the law firm . He confesses to Kirsten that he is actually considering taking the job because he wants to contribute to the household . Kirsten says they have more than enough money . Sandy verbally backslaps Kirsten saying the only thing that keeps her from feeling like Julie Cooper is him because she works and makes more money than him . The next day Sandy has a follow up interview with hot Rachel . They have lunch and the partners at the firm have sent her to snag Sandy for the job . Kirsten is over at Jimmy 's again screwing in lightbulbs . Jimmy brings up their past and tries to kiss Kirsten . She does not respond and leaves immediately . Sandy comes home that night and says that he 's going to take the job . She neglects to tell him about the Jimmy thing , which will surely backfire later . At Boom Boom , the hot happening club where all the kids get drunk , Marissa and Summer arrive with Ryan and Seth . Marissa tries to find Luke . Luke is pretty hammered and Holly is pretty grossly flirting with him . They dance and basically fuck each other with their clothes on . Everyone starts taking shots , and just when everyone is starting to feel a bit drunk , Marissa spots Luke and Holly basically banging . She freaks out atSummer calls Holly a bitch , who announces to everyone that Luke hooks up with freshman , college girls , and basically everyone so they can 't only be mad at her . Summer pushes Holly saying , " Marissa 's parents are getting a divorce you stupid slut ! " Seth tells Holly to walk away because Summer suffers from rage blackouts . Ryan tells Luke he doesn 't deserve Marissa and punches Luke in the face . Marissa takes off into the night . You 'll notice she does this a lot . WOW was that enough drama for you ? Hang tight ! It gets better . Ryan , Seth , and Summer go looking for Marissa who has gone back to the hotel . Summer finds her and Marissa says she has no one … . Luke 's gone , Julie is gone , her Dad is gone . Um , Summer is sitting right next to you , you bitch . Summer insists they go home and she goes to the bathroom to start packing up their stuff . Marissa sees the pain pills that Summer bought earlier and grabs them , taking off . Summer calls Seth to let them know she found Marissa . She calls out to Marissa who doesn 't respond and Summer realizes that she 's gone and has taken the pills with her . Ryan and Seth show up and it 's another man hunt for Marissa . Marissa heads to a very divey bar away from all the tourists , downing a handful of pills with tequila . She gets really sweaty and delirious at the bar . She walks out and finds a dirty alley to go die in . Good . Ryan , Seth , and Summer almost give up looking for her when Ryan passes the alley in question and sees her lying in it . He picks her up in an iconic end scene . Is she dead ? Will she pull through ! Tune in next week to find out ! You 'd think since they were in fucking MEXICO this time at least one person would say ' hola ' but nope . All white people speaking this time around . Classic OC . Weird 2003 thing : People thinking Comic - Con is for nerds only . Once Marvel starts making blockbusters in a few years , Comic - Con will be something all the popular kids will want to go to . Just wait 2003 people . Just you wait . Best Fashion Statement : Posted in Television , The O . C . Sundays and tagged California , California Phantom Planet , Chino , Chrismukkah , Death Cab for Cutie , Donald Trump , Episode 3 The OC , Episode 6 , Episode 7 , Hulu , Hulu Plus , Julie Cooper , Marissa Cooper , Mischa Barton , OC Episode 7 , Orange County , Paul Wesley , Peter Gallagher , Ryan Atwood , Sandy Cohen , Seth Cohen , Stephan Salvatore , Summer Roberts , The Cohens , The CW , The Escape , The O . C . , The O . C . Recap , The OC , The OC Recap , The Vampire Diaries , Welcome to the OC Bitch on June 4 , 2017 by @ sheldonspanjer . The O . C . premiered on August 5 , 2003 and ended on February 22 , 2007 . Or May 18 , 2006 if you like to pretend that the fourth season never happened ( a lot of people do , it 's okay ) . The O . C . not only introduced a lot of people to some fantastic music through its heavily bought mix tapes ( this is before YouTube , Spotify , & Apple Music ) , it also created Chrismukkah , and inspired a decades worth of ' THE REAL ' reality shows . Not sure what I mean by that ? Well The O . C . prompted the reality show Laguna Beach : The Real O . C . , and a thousand other spinoffs to it . The catch phrase ' The Real O . C . ' morphed into The Real Housewives of fill in the blank rich people cities . Needless to say , despite its shortcomings , The O . C . had some great writing , a fantastic soundtrack , and truly inspired a generation worth of TV , for better or worse . The O . C . is the only TV show I own on box set . I haven 't watched it in awhile , so why don 't we watch it together ? Whether you 're new to The O . C . ( you can stream it on Hulu ) or a long time fan , it 's a show anyone with a love for the dramatic can enjoy . We open on some witty banter from the Cohen 's who have just returned from grocery shopping . They are preparing for a visit from Kirsten 's Dad , Caleb , and his new girlfriend . It 's very clear that Sandy is not looking forward to this as he clearly has animosity toward his father - in - law . Ryan is also not looking forward to it , considering he burned down Caleb 's house . Caleb suddenly enters and tells Sandy ' shalom , ' to which Sandy can hardly fucking believe the nerve of this guy . Gabrielle , Caleb 's new girlfriend , is out back for a swim and much to Seth and Ryan 's extreme delight , she is basically a 24 year old supermodel . Caleb makes some digs at Seth still not being a football player , and he gives Ryan shit for burning down one of his houses . Gabrielle flirts mercilessly with Ryan and Seth in the pool , while they discuss Caleb 's birthday party set two days from now . Gabrielle convinces the boys to invite Summer and Marissa . Ryan is unsure because Marissa may be back with Luke and Seth is unsure because he still isn 't sure Summer knows his name . Luke drops by Marissa 's house after getting his stitches out of his gunshot wound . Marissa clearly isn 't that excited to see him . Luke knows how lucky he is to have a second chance with his life , and since Marissa was there for him in the hospital , he wants to be there for her with her whole ' soon to be poor ' thing . Luke gives her a stuffed animal and tells her they 'll take it slow . Super romantic . * eye roll * Sandy and Kirsten talk to Caleb about his birthday party that Kirsten has been planning . Caleb doesn 't sound that into it , but Sandy insists that he has to go because Kirsten has been working hard on it all month on top of doing all the actual fucking work for his company . Caleb brings up her adoption of Ryan , annoyed she didn 't consult him . As punishment , he says he 's going to scale back her responsibilities at work so she can spend some time with her new son . He 's clearly not passive aggressive at all . Julie comes by Jimmy 's office to rub it in his face that she had to return China , Caitlin 's horse . Julie says she wants to get a divorce . If she can 't give his daughter a pony then she doesn 't want him at all ! Ryan walks over to Marissa 's and she answers the door so they can breathe / hey at each other . He wants to invite her to the party tonight but Luke is there and suddenly is SUPER kind to Ryan for kind of maybe sort of saving his life , and calling Marissa after it happened to visit him in the hospital . THANKS FOR GETTING US BACK TOGETHER RYAN ! Gabrielle stops by Ryan 's work for a drink , because apparently he still has that job . They flirt and she says he must think it 's weird that she 's with an older guy . Ryan replies with , " I live in a pool house . " Great dialogue . Marissa stops by his work too , to tell him Luke wants to get back together with her . They ' hey ' and she tells him she doesn 't know what to do or who she wants to be with . Ryan tells her to let him know when she 's made up her mind and Marissa gets all sad . Just make your own personal decision bitch . Since Marissa can 't make a decision for herself , the next day she invites Summer to lunch to talk it over . Summer says she 's better off with Luke because Ryan comes from a land of knife fights and sex on the hood of cars . Marissa says that 's The Fast and the Furious , not Chino . Well , fuck it might as well be Chino with the way you assholes are always talking about it . Seth and Ryan skateboard / bike by and they stop to ' hey ' some more at the girls . Summer lets Marissa and Ryan have alone time while asking Seth to accompany her to the salsa bar after he awkwardly introduces himself to her for the millionth time . Summer gets some picante on her pinky which she doesn 't like , so she asks Seth to lick it off . Summer asks Seth to take her to Caleb 's party , and although he 's unsure why she wants to go with him , he agrees to take her . Ryan apologizes for telling Marissa that she has to make up her own mind and invites her to Caleb 's party too , but Marissa she says she 's already going … with Luke . Summer and Marissa talk about the party and how Summer is excited to have Seth introduce her to hot , rich , 20 - something bankers . So now we understand why she wanted Seth to invite her . At dinner that night , Caleb says that Seth has a quick wit and asks why he isn 't better at skirt chasing . Your misogyny is showing Caleb , christ . Seth brags that Summer asked him to his party to which Sandy is clearly impressed , because as he says , " Summer is hot . " Seth tells him to please stop . Gabrielle and Ryan eye fuck each other over the table , Seth notices , and Caleb wonders why there isn 't more wine . Sandy daydreams to Kirsten about her quitting her job , wanting to buy back their old run down house in Berkley . Caleb overhears them talking about it in the kitchen and asks what 's going on . Sandy , without any go ahead from Kirsten , tells him they 're thinking about moving . Sandy and Caleb fight because of course , and Caleb says he wants Kirsten 's resignation on his desk in the morning . Nice Sandy . Seth goes to get Gabrielle a good video game to play , leaving Ryan and Gabrielle alone in the pool house . The second he leaves , she admits to Ryan that Caleb bores her . She runs her hand up Ryan 's leg and they start making out . Caleb yells out that they 're leaving and Ryan is left stunned . The next morning of the party , Ryan and Seth are in the pool together and Seth admits that he 's noticed some heavy flirting . Ryan point blank admits they hooked up , which in early 2000 speak could mean anything from making out to full on BDSM can 't sit for a week shit . It 's a very vague term . Is no one going to point out that Ryan is 16 ( yes I know he looks 25 ) and Gabriella is 24 ( yes I know she looks 30 ) ? No one is going to point out that that 's some fucked up sexual predator , go to jail for child sex crime shit ? No ? Okay then . It 's finally Caleb 's birthday and Kirsten tries desperately to reverse the whole ' give me your resignation ' thing . Gabrielle finds Ryan and continues the flirting . Luke and Marissa start flirting . Ryan can 't stand it and goes to mope in the pool house . Luke is very nice to Seth , and Seth doesn 't quite understand since he got shot in the arm not the head . Jimmy and Julie arrive , and Jimmy has a plan to ask Caleb for a job . When that epically fails , Julie uses her skirt chasing wiles to see what Caleb can do for her now that she 's getting a divorced and has nothing . Caleb of course asks her to dinner because why not . Meanwhile Seth is introducing Summer to a lot of rich dudes . Summer later confides to Marissa that she 's meeting lots of wealth management people who , " manage wealth … as a job ! " Very insightful Summer . Summer confirms with Marissa that she chose Luke over Ryan . Summer asks if they 've had sex yet , to which Marissa obviously admits they haven 't . Summer asks what she 's waiting for and Marissa says she doesn 't know . Girl don 't know shit . Back at the pool house , Ryan is hiding from the party , as well as Marissa and Luke , when Gabrielle walks in and they start ' hooking up ' aka making out , everyone relax . Marissa stops by to tell Ryan that she chooses him instead of Luke , but she gets all sad and betrayed that he 's ' hooking up ' with someone else . They aren 't even dating ! What is he supposed to do , just sit there moping while Marissa takes a decade to figure out what she wants ! ? Marissa goes back through the party and finds Luke , saying she 's ready to hook up . Like actually hook up , as in have sex . If Ryan 's doing it why don 't they ? She 's dumb . Seth fights with Summer , saying he can 't stand introducing her to one more person who just stands there and stares at her boobs . Seth says that none of those guys know her , but he does . Cue adorable fucking moment . Seth remembers that Summer wrote a poem in sixth grade about how she wanted to be a mermaid , and is so overcome with emotion as he recites it to her that she kisses him . Sandy tells Caleb that Kirsten has no intention of quitting or moving . Sandy says that he needs to let her keep doing what she 's doing at the company . She 's smart and competent and she doesn 't need Caleb and he knows that Caleb fears that the most . Caleb walks away to find Kirsten and tells her he will see her at work on Monday . Marissa and Luke lose their virginities to each other . Or at least that 's what Marissa thinks since Luke clearly has fucked other people behind her back . Ryan decides to go get Marissa back and walks over to her house just as Luke drops her off . She looks shell shocked because I guess the sex was bad and shitty , and maybe don 't lose you virginity as revenge . She tells Ryan he 's too late and she half run / cries back inside . Her life is like super fucking hard , okay ? Summer : " Caleb Nichol is like the Donald Trump of the West . Do you know how many hot , rich , banker - brokers are going to be there ? " Ah back when Donald Trump was just a rich d - bag , and his name could casually be thrown around in conversation . Those were innocent times . Posted in Television , The O . C . Sundays and tagged California , California Phantom Planet , Chino , Chrismukkah , Donald Trump , Episode 3 The OC , Episode 6 , Hulu , Hulu Plus , Julie Cooper , Marissa Cooper , Mischa Barton , Orange County , Paul Wesley , Peter Gallagher , Ryan Atwood , S1E5 , Sandy Cohen , Seth Cohen , Stephan Salvatore , Summer Roberts , The Cohens , The CW , The Girlfriend , The O . C . , The O . C . Episode 6 , The O . C . Recap , The OC , The OC Episode 6 , The OC Recap , The Vampire Diaries , Welcome to the OC Bitch on May 14 , 2017 by @ sheldonspanjer . The O . C . premiered on August 5 , 2003 and ended on February 22 , 2007 . Or May 18 , 2006 if you like to pretend that the fourth season never happened ( a lot of people do , it 's okay ) . The O . C . not only introduced a lot of people to some fantastic music through its heavily bought mix tapes ( this is before YouTube , Spotify , & Apple Music ) , it also created Chrismukkah , and inspired a decades worth of ' THE REAL ' reality shows . Not sure what I mean by that ? Well The O . C . prompted the reality show Laguna Beach : The Real O . C . , and a thousand other spinoffs to it . The catch phrase ' The Real O . C . ' morphed into The Real Housewives of fill in the blank rich people cities . Needless to say , despite its shortcomings , The O . C . had some great writing , a fantastic soundtrack , and truly inspired a generation worth of TV , for better or worse . The O . C . is the only TV show I own on box set . I haven 't watched it in awhile , so why don 't we watch it together ? Whether you 're new to The O . C . ( you can stream it on Hulu ) or a long time fan , it 's a show anyone with a love for the dramatic can enjoy . The episode opens with Ryan and Seth BMX biking and skateboarding down the Newport boardwalk . The two sit down to a lobster dinner and discuss fashion . Because you know . Now they are both rich kids . They discuss Marissa , who Ryan has not called because he is giving her space . Ryan feels uncomfortable with everyone giving him money and as he whines , someone behind them who works there gets fired . Perfect time for Ryan to get a job for one episode only ! Because that 's exactly how that sort of thing works in the real world . Seth gets pretty sad about this prospect of something else taking up Ryan 's time . Kirsten is having a retreat with her awful friend group and Julie . The other women in the group are OBVIOUSLY horny for the scandal that Julie has just created with Jimmy stealing all their husbands ' money . Kirsten is not thrilled with the gossip , but insists they must go anyway since it 's been booked for weeks . Back in the Cooper house , Julie says she needs to go because it 's already paid for and so they don 't talk shit about her the entire time . Jimmy was hoping they could talk this weekend and Julie is like , this is your mess , clean it up . At the beach , Summer and Marissa are tanning . Rachel Bilson , as Summer , is in a bikini , because it 's in her contract or whatever that she can only wear bikini tops . Summer wants to go shopping and Marissa is like , ' WAHH MY DAD ' S CREDIT CARDS GOT SHUT OFF HOW DO I PAY FOR STUFF ? ' Relax bitch . They talk about how Luke is kind of not her boyfriend anymore . Summer says that Marissa needs to not be depressed because her step mom is depressed and is always on medication and she sucks . Okay , we are building a Summer character and a history and background . MAYBE Rachel Bilson can put on a shirt sometime soon . Summer invites Marissa to lunch , and they of course go to the lobster shack or wherever that Ryan now works at for one episode . Donnie sees Luke walk in and laments to Ryan , " That Abercrombie and Fitch water polo playing bitch wouldn 't last a day in Corona . " Ryan admits he 's from Chino and they talk about how that place is no joke . Okay , time for another SoCal lesson from a local . Chino is in San Bernardino County and Corona is in Riverside County . They are just 20 minutes apart though . I 've said this previously that just because Chino isn 't in Orange County doesn 't mean it is a total shit hole , full of of gangsters that are ' no joke ' , and neither is ( surprise ) Corona . It 's actually quite nice . The only thing that 's no joke about it is that it 's inland like Chino and hot as fuck out there , basically all the time . I 'm not sure where Josh Schwartz got his info on places in Southern California that aren 't Newport beach , but it 's lacking in actual information . Donnie promises that not everyone around here is like Luke though , and promises to show him a good time after work . Marissa and Luke ' talk ' but all Luke wants to do is pretend everything is normal and just go get drunk at Holly 's beach house . Marissa has to remind him that Holly 's Dad beat up her dad at her debutante ball . Luke says that Marissa 's dad stole all her money so it 's not Holly 's fault . Wrong thing to say . Needless to say , they are still on the outs after that conversation . Seth shows up as Ryan is off work , hoping to hang out . He meets Donnie but feels out of place , and doesn 't take the invite to come hang out with him and Ryan . The next morning , Ryan blearily walks into the Cohen kitchen to find a very cold - shouldered Seth reading comics and eating cereal . Seth clearly feels left out . Summer and Marissa are back at the beach and Summer is in another bikini . Ryan is headed into work and passes Marissa and Summer . Marissa says she has to babysit Kaitlin , but she will be cooking mac and cheese and invites Ryan over . Sandy sees Jimmy walking his dog and offers free legal advice . Sandy admits that even though he doesn 't like him , he 's a public defender and he represents a lot of people he doesn 't like . Sandy and Jimmy discuss how Jimmy is really in deep shit here . He 's gonna lose his license and he 's never gonna pay back the money he stole . Jimmy and Sandy play videos games and ask each other if they are old . Sandy says the best year of his life was when he was 22 , when he met Kirsten . Jimmy says 16 , when I met Kirsten . Awkward . At the retreat , Julie talks about how she needs to enjoy the weekend because she 's not going to be back for awhile . She works the room and whines about how she 's just worried about the girls and had no idea Jimmy was stealing ! The women can 't get enough of it and suck down their bloody mary 's , dying for more details . One of them gives Julie the name of a divorce lawyer , and Kirsten is mildly disgusted by the whole thing . Seth tries once again to get Ryan to hang out by enticing him with IMAX tickets to a shark movie . Fucking party . Ryan has to let him down again because of his Marissa date . Donnie comes out and fist bumps Seth , and since Ryan can 't hang out , he invites Seth to go to the party where there will be … wait for it . Seth agrees and Ryan tells him Long Beach is a ' shady neighborhood ' and ' pretty hardcore ' . Oh my god Ryan , no it 's not . Long beach is fine . I feel like I can say that since that 's where I was born . Holy shit . Long Beach is in Los Angeles county , but borders Orange County . It 's like Schwartz thinks as soon as you cross the invisible county line , things start to get ghetto . To say that Long Beach as a whole is ' shady , ' really misrepresents the place . Sure some neighborhoods aren 't great , like North Long Beach or the west side neighborhood . Go there at night for a party and it might get a little shady , but that 's about it . But Donnie never specifies where in Long Beach this party is . It could be in fucking Naples or something , in which case it 'd be just like a Newport party . Hold your judgement , Ryan ! So clearly , Ryan can 't let Seth go alone so he escorts him to what is clearly North Long Beach or West Side neighborhood , because this party is located in a parking lot with hydraulic cars and the Black Eyed Peas pumping Get Retarded ( which has not been dubbed to it 's PC version of Get it Started . Very gangster . ) Girls are stripping in the backyard / parking lot and Seth is like … boobs . Ryan says they are only going to hang out for 45 minutes . Ryan calls Marissa and says he got dragged to a party , but has to get Seth away from a dancer before he can come over . Seth and Ryan head back at the allotted time , only to find that their Ranger Rover has been damaged . Apparently you don 't bring a Range Rover to North Long Beach . The next morning , Sandy is observing the damage to his car . Ryan clearly has missed his date with Marissa , and Seth apologizes for salting his game . Seth goes to Marissa 's to apologize to her for taking Ryan away . He says that Ryan is mad at him right now and he begs Marissa to have Ryan cook her dinner . Sandy and Jimmy go golfing and Sandy says he won 't go to jail if he pays back everything he lost , but he 'll lose his Series 7 license . Sandy says Jimmy can sell his house and he 's got money in equity . This is too much for Jimmy . How dare Sandy try to help him by telling him the truth about how fucked he is ! Jimmy screams at Sandy about how poor he is and how Kirsten takes care of him , and to Sandy 's credit , he doesn 't throw his golf club at Jimmy 's face . Sandy says there 's more to providing for family than money , and asks if Jimmy wants to be around to see Kaitlin grow up , and Marissa graduate . Jimmy leaves that decision up to Julie . Keep the house and throw him in jail , or sell everything and start over as a family . At Ryan 's job , Seth says that he 's quite skilled at getting a date when it 's not for himself . He tells Ryan he will be cooking for Marissa tonight and Donnie overhears and asks Seth what 's up tonight . Seth tells him about a party at Holly 's beach house ( again ! ? ) . Donnie asks if he can come to Holly 's beach house with Seth and party with the Newport kids , drink their beer , and dance with their honeys . Sweet , ' honeys ' . Cool . Back at Ryan and Marissa 's date , Ryan is grilling grilled cheese and Marissa brings over leftover mac and cheese . Marissa wipes her hands on a napkin saying it was the best grilled cheese ever - as if she actually ate it . We all know that she is only allotted three almonds a day . Ryan asks if Marissa wants to do something fun and they push each other in the pool . OMG so cute . All This Time by Onerepublic plays and obviously everyone at home is in swoon mode . Donnie hits on Summer and they all make fun of him . Donnie says these kids are ' mad doggin ' him . Then he shows Seth his gun . Okay , cool Donnie . Way to turn into a psycho . Seth , who has the worst timing ever , calls Ryan saying that Donnie is a psycho and he has to pick him up , basically interrupting what would have been Ryan and Marissa 's first kiss . Marissa takes off because that 's what she does when there 's a chance that things could get emotional . Donnie and his friends are throwing chips at each other and breaking vodka bottles . Luke comes down and confronts Donnie . Seth tries to warn him to back off , but then Ryan shows up . Seth says that Ryan and he should go . Luke pushes Donnie who obviously has to pull out his gun and point it sideways at Luke . Damn those Long Beach / Chino / Riverside / Corona / non - Orange County kids are crazy ! Nice green t - shirt Summer . I see you back there semi - clothed . Ryan tackles Donnie to the ground and Luke 's arm gets shot . No water polo for you . Donnie takes off , and Luke is whisked away to the hospital in an ambulance . Ryan , being the good guy he is , calls Marissa to come to the hospital to see Luke . She tells him not to wait for her . She might be awhile . Guess that Ryan Marissa thing is on hold for now . Posted in Television , The O . C . Sundays and tagged California , California Phantom Planet , Chino , Chrismukkah , Episode 3 The OC , Hulu , Hulu Plus , Julie Cooper , Marissa Cooper , Mischa Barton , Orange County , Paul Wesley , Peter Gallagher , Ryan Atwood , S1E5 , Sandy Cohen , Seth Cohen , Stephan Salvatore , Summer Roberts , The Cohens , The CW , The O . C . , The O . C . Episode 5 , The O . C . Recap , The OC , The OC Episode 5 , The OC Recap , The Outsider , The Vampire Diaries , Welcome to the OC Bitch on May 7 , 2017 by @ sheldonspanjer . The O . C . premiered on August 5 , 2003 and ended on February 22 , 2007 . Or May 18 , 2006 if you like to pretend that the fourth season never happened ( a lot of people do , it 's okay ) . The O . C . not only introduced a lot of people to some fantastic music through its heavily bought mix tapes ( this is before YouTube , Spotify , & Apple Music ) , it also created Chrismukkah , and inspired a decades worth of ' THE REAL ' reality shows . Not sure what I mean by that ? Well The O . C . prompted the reality show Laguna Beach : The Real O . C . , and a thousand other spinoffs to it . The catch phrase ' The Real O . C . ' morphed into The Real Housewives of fill in the blank rich people cities . Needless to say , despite its shortcomings , The O . C . had some great writing , a fantastic soundtrack , and truly inspired a generation worth of TV , for better or worse . The O . C . is the only TV show I own on box set . I haven 't watched it in awhile , so why don 't we watch it together ? Whether you 're new to The O . C . ( you can stream it on Hulu ) or a long time fan , it 's a show anyone with a love for the dramatic can enjoy . The episode starts with some classic Ryan / Seth time dueling it out on their sweet ass PlayStation . Sandy and Kirsten tell Ryan that they went to child services and told them they want him to stay with them , but because he 's a minor , they have to assume all legal responsibility for him . " I can 't ask you guys to do that . " Talk about a 180 from Kirsten . Ryan 's face is just as you 'd imagine it , full of hope , anticipation , fear of screwing this up , but most of all , happiness . It 's a dream come true . Ryan asks what happens if they change their mind and it doesn 't work . Sandy jokes that he 's already beaten up the captain of the water polo team , burned down a house , and stolen a car , so what else could possibly go wrong ? At this point , I took a moment to pause and reflect on all that is yet to come in this season and others to come . I figure that if Sandy and Kirsten only knew how much else would go wrong , they would have been kicking that Chino kid out ASAP . Ryan promises to stay out of trouble and they welcome him to the family . Ryan almost cries , I definitely cried , Seth welcomes him to the family , and they half joke about how now he just has to stay out of trouble . Kirsten gets Ryan settled into the pool house and wants to buy him more things , but he insists he has everything he needs . Kirsten bets he doesn 't have a tux . He 's gonna need a tux . This is a world of events every weekend and charity galas and of COURSE there is a goddamn cotillion . Sidenote : Have you ever been to a cotillion ? You haven 't ? Well , that 's because you 're not an asshole . Cotillion is something rich assholes send their kids to to learn manners and become part of civilized society . Then at the end , you ' graduate ' or ' debut ' yourself as an accomplished person . This particularly applies to the women who have to wear white like they 're debuting from a fucking convent while their dude escorts try to cop a feel . Lots of dining , dancing , and debuting . Hence the title of this episode . As a person who grew up in Orange County , I 'm sad to report that this bullshit cotillion thing does exist . I never went , but I have lots of friends who did it and they all hated it . However , their parents LOVED to show how much money they all had to waste on shit you could just learn by reading a fucking book . God I hate cotillion . Anyway , back to cotillion . Sandy is coming back from a morning of surfing and Jimmy shows up in his driveway . Jimmy admits he didn 't ask Sandy for the money because he was embarrassed of what Sandy would think of him . Sandy asks how much money he lost and how he lost it . Jimmy refuses to answer and he is so very clearly STILL HAVING FINANCIAL PROBLEMS , which only Sandy seems to notice . Kirsten takes Seth and Ryan to the county club to get a tux fitted . Marissa is picking up her shit at the club and her and Ryan breathily ' hey ' at each other for not even remotely the last time . Marissa says it 's great he 's staying now because they can be FRIENDS . Right , they 're so good at that . Luke shows up and flexes his pooka shells . Summer flirts with Ryan in front of Seth and Seth says cotillion rocks . Wrong Seth , cotillion does not rock . Back in a dressing room , Summer is in a braBack at home , Ryan doesn 't want to go to cotillion because cotillion is fucking worthless . Seth is like , you gotta go , it 's a FAMILY thing . WE ARE WHITE KNIGHTS . Ryan is worried about a fight breaking out so he goes to Marissa 's place to tell her he 's backing out of cotillion and of course , at this exact time she 's trying on her virgin wedding cotillion dress and can 't reach the clasp ! Thank god Ryan has shown up . Ryan clasps her up in slow motion and when he 's done Marissa wants to know what exactly he wanted to talk to her about in regards to cotillion . But thanks to Ryan 's newly minted boner from clasping a dress together , he decides he 's definitely going to cotillion . Later that day , Ryan and Seth show up for cotillion rehearsals and Ryan realizes for the first time that there is DANCING involved . Oh the horror . Ryan doesn 't like music and he sure as shit don 't dance . " You didn 't tell me there was dancing . " Seth then shows off his own dance moves and in response , Ryan looks mildly disturbed . Summer is pissed that Marissa gave Ryan away as an escort to ANNA STERN . WELCOME ANNA . Fans of The O . C . tend to either hate Anna or love her . I 'm with the latter group . Ready for another love triangle ? Was Ryan / Marissa / Luke not enough for you ? Welcome to Seth / Summer / Anna . Anna is a punky chick who is down to earth as fuck . Anna is from Pittsburgh , and is super into comic books . It 's the female version of Seth , but she 's partnered with Ryan , and Summer is with Seth . Marissa has to demonstrate to Anna and Ryan how to dance , and Anna is sensing the chemistry , and luckily , Luke isn 't there to witness it . Oh nevermind , here he comes . Sweet , Luke . You just wait buddy . Shit 's about to get real ' gay ' for you in a few episodes . Holly is having another goddamn beach party cookout that night to celebrate fucking cotillion . She invites them all and Ryan is like , nope , that sounds like a fight . And Seth is like , you have to go because Summer will be there and I can 't go alone . Holly 's Dad runs into Jimmy and he wants to talk to him about money . He wants to pull $ 250K out of his account that Jimmy manages - the same account that Jimmy has basically drained . Jimmy is fucked . Back at Holly 's beach house , Summer is in a bikini top trying to pay people to take Seth over as her escort . Seth asks if she can pretend to be excited about them going to cotillion together and Summer gives him a big ol ' nope . Marissa pretty much starts shit with Luke because she is wanting to talk to Ryan , and Luke wants Marissa to not talk to him , and Luke punches Ryan , starting off a sequence of events where Marissa gets Ryan in trouble by doing Marissa things . The night of cotillion , Ryan decides he 's not going because he 's not going to miss out on being a Cohen just to kick someone 's ass . Marissa and Luke are fighting , so she decides to not go either . Sandy also doesn 't want to go because he hates Jimmy Cooper . Kirsten and Seth take off and Sandy and Ryan play video games . Seth goes to tell Anna that Ryan isn 't showing up . Luke and Julie make Summer call Marissa , but she still ain 't coming . Summer tells her that Ryan didn 't show up either and since Marissa isn 't coming , she eyes Luke as a potential new escort , ditching Seth . Marissa shows up in a halter with no bra at Ryan 's house , probably hoping that Sandy wasn 't there so they could get it on . Marissa says she 'll go to cotillion if he goes . Sandy is finally getting into video games when they announce they 're going to cotillion . Sandy says he 'll get the car . NOW EVERYONE IS GOING to GODDAMN COTILLION . You people never learn your lesson . Ryan and Marissa show up together and Luke freaks out . Luke cries a little and dumps Marissa , and she gives Ryan a look like it 's his fucking fault . Now Ryan is going to escort Marissa , much to her eternal satisfaction . Anna gives Seth some shit about being lonely and tells him he 's not a man . She gives him a lesson on confidence . Marissa and Ryan come out of their respective dressing rooms looking like they 're about to get married . They HEY at each other some more . Their names are called and they bow and curtsy . This event literally costs more than most people 's weddings . Everyone is dancing and having a good time when Holly 's Dad comes up to Jimmy and demands his money . He punches Jimmy in the face , calling him a thief and they tussle on the floor . Now everyone should finally fucking know that JIMMY IS HAVING FINANCIAL PROBLEMS in case it wasn 't already incredibly obvious . Sandy defends him , and Kirsten and him are all good again . Ryan gets in there too and they make an exception for Ryan . Sandy says , ' as your attorney I advise you to get out of here . " Anna says she 's spending the rest of the summer on a sailing trip to Tahiti . She is either stalking Seth or they are the same person . Marissa is outside crying because that 's what she does best , upset that she 's probably poor now and her Dad got beat up . Ryan gives her his jacket and he comforts her . They turn around and Luke is there because he showed up hearing that Jimmy got punched . Luke asks if he can take her home and they can talk . She gives Ryan back his jacket and says she needs to be alone right now . She dramatically runs off in her white dress . Way to make a decision Marissa . Best Song of the Episode : One again ! A respectable smart black person working for the government . He talks and has three lines . Big deal . Weird 2003 thing : Julie mentions that she could fit in Marissa 's size zero cotillion dress after a few months of Zone . Zone is a fad diet that is still around today but was huge in 2003 for rich people . Best Fashion Statement : Marissa 's red halter top . Posted in Television , The O . C . Sundays and tagged California , California Phantom Planet , Chino , Chrismukkah , Episode 3 The OC , Hulu , Hulu Plus , Julie Cooper , Marissa Cooper , Mischa Barton , Orange County , Peter Gallagher , Ryan Atwood , Sandy Cohen , Seth Cohen , Summer Roberts , The Cohens , The CW , The Debut , The O . C . , The O . C . Recap , The OC , The OC Episode 4 , The OC Recap , Welcome to the OC Bitch on April 30 , 2017 by @ sheldonspanjer . The O . C . premiered on August 5 , 2003 and ended on February 22 , 2007 . Or May 18 , 2006 if you like to pretend that the fourth season never happened ( a lot of people do , it 's okay ) . The O . C . not only introduced a lot of people to some fantastic music through its heavily bought mix tapes ( this is before YouTube , Spotify , & Apple Music ) , it also created Chrismukkah , and inspired a decades worth of ' THE REAL ' reality shows . Not sure what I mean by that ? Well The O . C . prompted the reality show Laguna Beach : The Real O . C . , and a thousand other spinoffs to it . The catch phrase ' The Real O . C . ' morphed into The Real Housewives of fill in the blank rich people cities . Needless to say , despite its shortcomings , The O . C . had some great writing , a fantastic soundtrack , and truly inspired a generation worth of TV , for better or worse . The O . C . is the only TV show I own on box set . I haven 't watched it in awhile , so why don 't we watch it together ? Whether you 're new to The O . C . ( you can stream it on Hulu ) or a long time fan , it 's a show anyone with a love for the dramatic can enjoy . The episode opens in juvie with a plethora of non - white people available for speaking roles . Unfortunately , they are all reduced to yelling slurs at newbie and white privileged kid , Ryan . Sandy stops in to see him and quips that they ' gotta stop meeting like this . ' He lets him know that Kirsten 's company , the Newport Group , has decided to drop all arson charges . Ryan has to stay in jail for 30 - 60 days however because he can 't be released to a parent or guardian , while Luke strolls out like it ain 't no thing . Sandy leaves him alone and when Ryan heads back to the cells , a Mexican kid in juvie who look a like he 's 30 threatens Ryan by pressing a fork to his neck . Back in the O . C . , Kirsten is planning a brunch for her friends that she hates . They are planning a casino night … . for charity . Because everything is done for charity in this show . Seth meanwhile , is angry at everyone because he is grounded and his Mom won 't let the kid that burned her house down live with them . Weird , right ? Kristen 's awful friends show up with Julie heading the group of assholes . Sandy says he 's off to find another kid to jeopardize the community , joking that he might bring an Asian or a black kid home now , which obviously worries all the women . A grounded Seth tries to sneak out of the house to go visit Ryan , but Kristen says no . Kristen admits she 's hired someone to find his mother and dropped the charges . Seth asks Kristen if she wants to come with him , and she 'd rather do that than hang out with the whores in her living room , so she agrees ( I 'm paraphrasing ) . Back at Marissa 's house , Summer is being turned into a more developed character by switching her signature bikini top for a lacy bra . She tries on clothes , and Marissa calls Luke who won 't answer . Seth stops by Marissa 's to see if she wants to go to juvie to visit Ryan with him , and Seth sees Summer in her bra and basically dies of happiness . Marissa blows Seth off saying ' It 's too complicated ' to visit Ryan ( oookay ) . In juvie , Kirsten and Seth have a pretty awkward visit with Ryan . Ryan 's fork wound is very prevalent and Kirsten is feeling super guilty . The Mexican that has been bothering Ryan starts talking dirty to Kirsten , so naturally Ryan kicks his ass . Kirsten decides she wants that pretty white boy OUT of there ASAP . Sandy comes home and finds Ryan and Seth playing video games and he jokes to Kirsten that he didn 't know she was an impulse shopper . She says it 's not permanent . Ryan overhears and says he guesses he won 't unpack . Just laying in that guilt . Seth asks what happened that night with Marissa in the model home , and Ryan says he told her to leave . Seth suggests he takes those words back . Julie gives Marissa some terrible advice , pushing her daughter towards Luke who is clearly a very awful boyfriend to her . She suggests she fix her hair , put on a top , and join her at the club to win Luke back . Sandy is too busy to hang with the boys , and Kirsten has to set up casino night , so she brings Ryan and Seth with her . Naturally , Luke shows up too , so it 's all about to get super awkward . Marissa is there as well and tries to talk to Luke , but he ain 't having none of that shit . Ryan tries to talk to Marissa who says they are from different worlds , so back the fuck off , I need to fix things with puka shells Luke . Sandy gets a call about Dawn , Ryan 's mother , saying that they 've found her . Ryan asks what Kirsten does and she explains the Newport Group to him , and Ryan expresses his desire to be an architect . Kirsten is already planning her future with Ryan as her son when they get home , but to his confusion , his mother is sitting there waiting . They all sit down for a very weird conversation over dinner and Dawn says she 's staying with her friends , as she broke up with her abusive boyfriend . Kirsten asks that she stay at their house tonight . Ryan is clearly very embarrassed about his Mom , who promises she is sober now . Ryan wants to know what she 's doing here because she abandoned him and just left a note . Ryan doesn 't even want to have his Mom touch him , and asks for her to go slow with him , clearly afraid of getting hurt again . She says she 's not going to lose him again . The next day they take a walk and then try to take off . Kirsten clearly is still anxious about them though , so she offers her to come to casino night with them . One last fun night ! Where nothing could possibly go wrong on a soap opera ! Dawn shows up with Ryan and is clearly very impressed with the Newport life . Julie is pissed about Kirsten giving them money . Dawn is gambling a little too much and has started sneaking drinks . Marissa cold shoulders Ryan with a dismissive ' good luck with everything ' and Ryan tells her to ' have a nice life . ' Marissa and Luke fight . Julie brings up the money Kirsten gave them to Sandy who CLEARLY DIDN ' T KNOW ABOUT IT . Things are going badly for everyone except Seth . When Summer drops some dice , Seth is there to pick them up and he blows on them because she 's superstitious . She wins some shit and now Sid or Stanley or Seth or whoever can 't leave her side all night . Marissa and Luke make up with some prodding from Ryan who swears to Luke that nothing happened between them . Things finally come to a head when Dawn starts to lose money , so she drinks more and eventually falls in the middle of the room because she 's so drunk . She completely embarrasses Ryan in front of everyone and Seth abandons Summer , so Luke and him can help Dawn off the floor . " Where 's Ryan ? " " No I don 't . I love you Mom . " Dawn passes out back at the pool house and Ryan looks on , hating himself for giving into the hope that it might have worked out . In the morning Dawn packs up and is about to abandon Ryan while he sleeps , but Kirsten catches her on her way out . They talk about how it 's her duty as a mother to stay , and Dawn says it would be the nicest thing she 's ever done for him if she leaves him . Ryan wakes up just as she 's about to take off . They share a sad longing look , and she waves goodbye at him . Ryan is shell shocked and can hardly believe it , so he goes for a hesitant half wave . Kirsten and him stare back and forth wondering what 's next . Will she take him in ? Will she put him back in the system ? Seth and Sandy are making breakfast when Kirsten and Ryan walk in . They ask where Dawn is and Kirsten says , " Ryan is going to stay with us now . " One ! A Mexican kid in juvie yells super juvie things at Ryan and Kirsten including , " I 'll kill you " & " Is this your honey ? Come here , bitch , I wanna get a look at you . " STAY CLASSY , THE O . C . Weird 2003 thing : See Below . I mean , it 's hard to believe these things were ever popular to wear , but they were . Best Fashion Statement : Julie 's soft pink Juicy Couture sweatsuit . Posted in Television , The O . C . Sundays and tagged California , California Phantom Planet , Chino , Chrismukkah , Episode 3 The OC , Hulu , Hulu Plus , Julie Cooper , Marissa Cooper , Mischa Barton , Orange County , Peter Gallagher , Ryan Atwood , Sandy Cohen , Seth Cohen , Summer Roberts , The Cohens , The CW , The Gamble , The O . C . , The O . C . Recap , The OC , The OC Episode 3 , The OC Recap , Welcome to the OC Bitch on April 23 , 2017 by @ sheldonspanjer .

For those of you who wondered about buy nothing day , check out Adbusters . To quote Wikipedia " Buy Nothing Day is an international day of protest against consumerism observed by social activists . " I already mentioned that I never shop on Black Friday . Partly , because I hate crowds and shopping combined . I am probably one of just a small number of women who can start shopping , then leave a cart sitting in the middle of a store because I 've lost motivation . I don 't enjoy shopping . Call me weird . And on the day after Thansgiving , the level of insanity is outrageous . There is nothing I need so badly , that I would be willing to get up at 3 am or earlier to stand in line for hours waiting . And this latest incident at Wal mart , just proves how crazy it is . Supposedly the economy sucks , people are out of work , we are in a recession ( or heading there depending on who you talk to ) , banks are being bailed out by the government , the auto industry wants a handout , and still , people participate in the craziness that is Black Friday . This country will never change until more people realize that we need to consume less . Unfortunately , we failed at not shopping on Friday . Or rather , my husband failed . Of course , he didn 't get up insanely early to go shopping , and he didn 't even set out to buy any Black Friday deals . He really only took advantage of the day because Krista and I took all the kids to the Grand Illumination and the Children 's Parade . He bought a new dishwasher and TV . I know . Not really a good example of consuming less , but our dishwasher bit the dust a few weeks ago , and our TV even longer than that . I like to think that we 're saving a little energy and water at least by purchasing new . Who knows how many gallons of water we have wasted down the drain ? And let 's not even discuss how it was slowly driving me insane to leave the TV on constantly because if you turned it off , the screen would be green when you turned it back on . I never shop on Black Friday , never . Mainly because I hate shopping , and crowds . Put the two together , and it 's a situation I really don 't want to be in . But tolerating the crowd is nothing compared to being trampled to death by a throng of mad shoppers . Does Wal mart really carry anything so significant that it 's worth the life of another ? " By 4 : 55 , with no police officers in sight , the crowd of more than 2 , 000 had become a rabble , and could be held back no longer . Fists banged and shoulders pressed on the sliding - glass double doors , which bowed in with the weight of the assault . Six to 10 workers inside tried to push back , but it was hopeless . Suddenly , witnesses and the police said , the doors shattered , and the shrieking mob surged through in a blind rush for holiday bargains . One worker , Jdimytai Damour , 34 , was thrown back onto the black linoleum tiles and trampled in the stampede that streamed over and around him . Others who had stood alongside Mr . Damour trying to hold the doors were also hurled back and run over , witnesses said . " Read the entire article here . Similiar story , different day , different kid . This time it wasn 't me who locked the doors , and it was Teagan who was stuck in his car seat . I went to the gas station this afternoon , intending to jump out , get some gas , and go on my merry way . So I pull up , turn the car off and get out . Little Miss Tatum asks if she can get out . I say no , and shut the door . Not locking it , because who does that while they are pumping gas ? I have an obstinate 5 yr old though . Sure enough , not more than 2 minutes later , who do you suppose is climbing out of the front seat ? She opens the driver door , says " I got out " , grinning , of course . Then hops to the ground , shuts the door and . . . . . . . . CLICK ! ! ! There went those damn automatic locks again . I assume she must have hit the button while she was leaning on the door 's arm rest to get out , because I know it didn 't click when I got out . Teagan , unfortunately , has not mastered the art of extracating himself from his car seat . So , he was left alone , in the locked van , with my keys and cell phone , while I had to explain to the clerk that I needed to use his phone because somebody locked her brother in the car . Bobby was none too happy since I was 25 - 30 minutes away and he had just put Tess down for a nap . It might have been faster to call the police , but I wasn 't calling them and looking like idiot Mom again . So , Tatum and I stood out in the cold , freezing our ears off , while Teagan sat in the warm van munching on chicken nuggets and fries . He didn 't seem to mind at all . Needless to say , he was the only one who was spoiled with a blue raspberry slushie from Target half an hour later , while Tatum was sent home with Daddy . Okay , Tess is actually 14 weeks in this one , but the hair just cracks me up . These are 15 week shots . She is playing with more toys now , although she tends to whack herself in the face with them , since she has a fascination with eating her hands . Check out the cheeks on this girl . Don 't you just want to pinch them ? Posted by Our dishwasher bit the dust a couple weeks ago , so we 've been washing dishes by hand since then and letting them dry in our under counter dish drainer . One day , the little people decided they wanted to help . Teagan seemed to end up with more water on his shirt , than in the sink . While it is cheaper than buying a new dishwasher , I can 't guarantee it will help the water bill at all . And yeah , the cat food is on the counter . Buddy doesn 't agree that she should be on a diet , so when she is in the house , she steals Chewie 's food . He 's not too happy about that . I visited Krista 's blog today and learned about her friend Kris , and Krista 's unusual fascination with albino squirrels . You 'll have to check it out yourself to see what that is about , but I can tell you about Kris . Kris is another mama adopting from China who is trying to raise funds for her adoption fees . She is offering up a Wii ! And who couldn 't use a Wii , especially for Christmas ? ! ? ! Follow the button to the right to see how you can make a small donation , or a big one if you like , and be entered in the drawing for the Wii gaming system . For some football ? ! ? ! The boys went with Aunt Krista to the Bengals game on Sunday . Despite freezing their butts off , they had a good time . Check out her blog for the shenanigans . Darn . I keep forgetting how many kids I have . The OLDER boys went to the game . Well , not the dead , but homework hell at least . I finished the hellatious essay I have been putting off . Honestly , it wasn 't that terrible . I am just a major procrastinator . Now , that it is done and out of the way , ah , a weight has lifted . Only 4 more weeks of this term . So , on to the shots of Tess . She had a bad night last Monday and I thought our sleeping through the night days were over . Luckily , it was just a tummy ache and she was back to her regular schedule the next night . She is 13 weeks old today , and I imagine , up to about 12 pounds . She 's feeling a little heftier to me . It kind of sucks though because she is in between sizes . Don 't I know the feeling ? : op I 've brought out all her 3 - 6 month clothes , but she 's not quite out of the 0 - 3 stuff . Which translates to , there is a whole lot of baby clothes piled up in my room . What is that in her mouth ? Moving in for a closer look . . . . Ah yes , it 's that thumb she loves . Actually , she loves her left thumb . I 'll be ! My girl is ambidextrous . Notice the defensive wounds on her little nose . Apparently her fingernails got in a fight with her nose . Maybe to settle the dispute , the left thumb is not allowed in anymore so the right thumb had to pick up the slack . Hmm . . . . . . What ? No , I don 't get out much . Posted by We had a photographer come to the house to take some pics of Tess when she was 3 weeks old . Here are a few to preview . If you want to see more , click here . I love this photographer . She also took the pics of Tatum and Teagan last year . You can see those here towards the top of the page . Click through the pages to see her other work . If you 're local , you can get her contact info here . Tess is 3 months old ! I think we are on day 5 or 6 of sleeping through the night , which is just weird for me . But if this is a trend that wants to continue , I 'll accept it . I know it may not be such a big deal to some , but this is the first time I have had a baby just fall into a schedule . Pretty sad , considering I 've done this 4 times before . I co - slept with the rest of them . Tatum demanded it from birth on , so I didn 't even try the crib with Teagan . I assumed Tess would be a co sleeper too since her early days were similar to Tatum 's demeanor . But she has morphed into a mellow little person , much more reminicent of Travis 's early days . Don 't feel bad if you get confused when I throw out alot of names . I get confused sometimes too . She is starting to play with toys now , and smiling and laughing more . Unless the camera is around . Then she just stops to stare . Master of the Rings Teagan is still loving little sis . We 'll see how he feels in another year when she is swiping his toys . But for now , he says things like , Tess is cute . She smiled at me ! I yike Tess . Tatum still wants to hold Tess all the time , at least until she cries . Unless , of course , she is passed out on the couch . Posted by Last night was the third night of 8 hours of sleep for Tess . I don 't know how we got her on a schedule . But I like it ! I nursed her , then laid her down in her bed . She fussed for half a second , found her thumb , then promptly fell asleep . Pretty cool , huh ? Turn Ohio Blue ! I cannot even describe the feelings I had as I listened to Obama 's victory speech last night . Excitement , hope , peace . . . . . . . I know many others are feeling the same way . What a historic and hopeful time we are in . I was so happy when I watched Ohio turn blue on the map . I remember 4 years ago when it didn 't . I remember what I felt then , the disappointment , the fear , the grief , like my vote didn 't count , my voice wasn 't heard . But last night , the world heard loud and clear that Americans are ready for change , we 're ready for hope . And I believe this man , gave us that hope . Now that the election is over , and history has been made , I will get back to the taleing of the T 's . Unless I feel like talking politics , because that 's just how I operate . I 'm a spontaneous , fly off the handle , lack of a filter kind of girl . Oh wait , one more political thing . So Travis , my 8 yr old comes downstairs to tell me goodnight last night . I was watching MSNBC . He saw that McCain had won , I don 't know , like Alabama , and thought that meant he won the election . He seemed a little disappointed . I 'm not sure why because I certainly don 't discuss political things with my kids . I figure there is time for that when they are old enough to understand the issues . But somehow , both my boys picked up tidbits from school and decided who they liked . According to their friends , McCain is old and is about to die , and he is going to raise taxes . Where do kids get this stuff from ? Anyway , I tell him that no , that just means McCain won that state , but the election isn 't over . So he asks me , can you come and wake me up if Obama wins ? I say , can 't I just tell you in the morning ? No , you have to come and wake me up to tell me . Needless to say , I didn 't wake him up . I am proud though that my 11 yr old has supported the Democrats for the last 4 years , with no prodding from me . Really . So , back to the T 's . . . . . My baby girl slept 7 - 8 hours the last two nights in a row . I don 't know how , or even if it will ever happen again , but I am thankful . We ' vePosted by To update you on school : I 'm on week 4 of this term . I 've been putting off my health history assignment for my assessment class . I finally did it . It took me 3 hours , but it 's done . I love it when things are done . So far , I have a 98 % in Physical Assessment . Not sure about Communications because she doesn 't post the grades . Turned in the final draft of my expressive essay for communications . Moving onto my argumentative essay . Only 7 more weeks to go . Tatum and Teagan like each other , sometimes . I caught them watching TV like this . Right now , they are fighting . Tess found her thumb . She loves it . We had a bit of an adventure yesterday . Tess and I were on our way to a baby shower , when we stopped by Target for a baby gift . I have those goofy automatic locks on my van . You know , the ones with the lock button on your keys . I pushed the lock button on my way into the store but didn 't hear it click . I didn 't pay too much attention to it , but I 'm sure you can guess where this is going . When I came back out , I noticed that the side door hadn 't slid completely shut , hence , it didn 't lock . Not thinking this might mean that it still wanted to lock since I had pushed the button 20 minutes before , I stuck the diaper bag , with my keys and cell phone in it , between the seats , snapped Tess 's carseat in , slid the door shut and . . . . . . . . click ! Instantly , the doors locked . And immediately , I freaked out , which is why I can 't understand how parents can forget their kids in the car . Anyway , since my cell phone was in the now locked van , I had to run back into the store to ask for help . I 'm not sure how the lady understood me as I was near hyperventilating when I sobbed something like " Can I use the phone ? I locked my baby in the car . " She told me to go wait back outside and she would call for help . One of their security guards came to wait with me until the police came . Luckily , it was the only 70 degree day in NOVEMBER ! Unfortunately , not paying attention to the weather , I dressed her in fleece . She was amazingly calm , stuck there in her carseat , in an unmoving , hot van . Normally , if we 're not rolling , she 's not happy . But yesterday was a particularly good day for her . Good thing , because Mom wasn 't calm at all , especially when I noticed she was starting to sweat while waiting for the cop to mosey his way on out of his car to fiddle with my lock . Of course , they make you sign a release , which is understandable , but I was very near the " let 's just break a window , could you hurry the hell up , that 's my baby in there " stage . After 20 minutes of sweating , she was rescued , and none the worse for wear . We went on to the baby showerPosted by Took the kids to Bounce U this weekend for their open bounce , really early in the morning . No wonder they say jammies welcome . Everybody liked the ball blaster . This is one of the bounce pros helping Teagan climbed through an insanely tall web of stretchy , elastic cords . Tatum went up a few times and said it was pretty hard . Travis was pretty good at shooting hoops . Maybe we should have thought about basketball for him . I know , my camera doesn 't do action shots well , but I thought they were cool anyway . Posted by

For those of you who wondered about buy nothing day , check out Adbusters . To quote Wikipedia " Buy Nothing Day is an international day of protest against consumerism observed by social activists . " I already mentioned that I never shop on Black Friday . Partly , because I hate crowds and shopping combined . I am probably one of just a small number of women who can start shopping , then leave a cart sitting in the middle of a store because I 've lost motivation . I don 't enjoy shopping . Call me weird . And on the day after Thansgiving , the level of insanity is outrageous . There is nothing I need so badly , that I would be willing to get up at 3 am or earlier to stand in line for hours waiting . And this latest incident at Wal mart , just proves how crazy it is . Supposedly the economy sucks , people are out of work , we are in a recession ( or heading there depending on who you talk to ) , banks are being bailed out by the government , the auto industry wants a handout , and still , people participate in the craziness that is Black Friday . This country will never change until more people realize that we need to consume less . Unfortunately , we failed at not shopping on Friday . Or rather , my husband failed . Of course , he didn 't get up insanely early to go shopping , and he didn 't even set out to buy any Black Friday deals . He really only took advantage of the day because Krista and I took all the kids to the Grand Illumination and the Children 's Parade . He bought a new dishwasher and TV . I know . Not really a good example of consuming less , but our dishwasher bit the dust a few weeks ago , and our TV even longer than that . I like to think that we 're saving a little energy and water at least by purchasing new . Who knows how many gallons of water we have wasted down the drain ? And let 's not even discuss how it was slowly driving me insane to leave the TV on constantly because if you turned it off , the screen would be green when you turned it back on . I never shop on Black Friday , never . Mainly because I hate shopping , and crowds . Put the two together , and it 's a situation I really don 't want to be in . But tolerating the crowd is nothing compared to being trampled to death by a throng of mad shoppers . Does Wal mart really carry anything so significant that it 's worth the life of another ? " By 4 : 55 , with no police officers in sight , the crowd of more than 2 , 000 had become a rabble , and could be held back no longer . Fists banged and shoulders pressed on the sliding - glass double doors , which bowed in with the weight of the assault . Six to 10 workers inside tried to push back , but it was hopeless . Suddenly , witnesses and the police said , the doors shattered , and the shrieking mob surged through in a blind rush for holiday bargains . One worker , Jdimytai Damour , 34 , was thrown back onto the black linoleum tiles and trampled in the stampede that streamed over and around him . Others who had stood alongside Mr . Damour trying to hold the doors were also hurled back and run over , witnesses said . " Read the entire article here . Similiar story , different day , different kid . This time it wasn 't me who locked the doors , and it was Teagan who was stuck in his car seat . I went to the gas station this afternoon , intending to jump out , get some gas , and go on my merry way . So I pull up , turn the car off and get out . Little Miss Tatum asks if she can get out . I say no , and shut the door . Not locking it , because who does that while they are pumping gas ? I have an obstinate 5 yr old though . Sure enough , not more than 2 minutes later , who do you suppose is climbing out of the front seat ? She opens the driver door , says " I got out " , grinning , of course . Then hops to the ground , shuts the door and . . . . . . . . CLICK ! ! ! There went those damn automatic locks again . I assume she must have hit the button while she was leaning on the door 's arm rest to get out , because I know it didn 't click when I got out . Teagan , unfortunately , has not mastered the art of extracating himself from his car seat . So , he was left alone , in the locked van , with my keys and cell phone , while I had to explain to the clerk that I needed to use his phone because somebody locked her brother in the car . Bobby was none too happy since I was 25 - 30 minutes away and he had just put Tess down for a nap . It might have been faster to call the police , but I wasn 't calling them and looking like idiot Mom again . So , Tatum and I stood out in the cold , freezing our ears off , while Teagan sat in the warm van munching on chicken nuggets and fries . He didn 't seem to mind at all . Needless to say , he was the only one who was spoiled with a blue raspberry slushie from Target half an hour later , while Tatum was sent home with Daddy . Okay , Tess is actually 14 weeks in this one , but the hair just cracks me up . These are 15 week shots . She is playing with more toys now , although she tends to whack herself in the face with them , since she has a fascination with eating her hands . Check out the cheeks on this girl . Don 't you just want to pinch them ? Posted by Our dishwasher bit the dust a couple weeks ago , so we 've been washing dishes by hand since then and letting them dry in our under counter dish drainer . One day , the little people decided they wanted to help . Teagan seemed to end up with more water on his shirt , than in the sink . While it is cheaper than buying a new dishwasher , I can 't guarantee it will help the water bill at all . And yeah , the cat food is on the counter . Buddy doesn 't agree that she should be on a diet , so when she is in the house , she steals Chewie 's food . He 's not too happy about that . I visited Krista 's blog today and learned about her friend Kris , and Krista 's unusual fascination with albino squirrels . You 'll have to check it out yourself to see what that is about , but I can tell you about Kris . Kris is another mama adopting from China who is trying to raise funds for her adoption fees . She is offering up a Wii ! And who couldn 't use a Wii , especially for Christmas ? ! ? ! Follow the button to the right to see how you can make a small donation , or a big one if you like , and be entered in the drawing for the Wii gaming system . For some football ? ! ? ! The boys went with Aunt Krista to the Bengals game on Sunday . Despite freezing their butts off , they had a good time . Check out her blog for the shenanigans . Darn . I keep forgetting how many kids I have . The OLDER boys went to the game . Well , not the dead , but homework hell at least . I finished the hellatious essay I have been putting off . Honestly , it wasn 't that terrible . I am just a major procrastinator . Now , that it is done and out of the way , ah , a weight has lifted . Only 4 more weeks of this term . So , on to the shots of Tess . She had a bad night last Monday and I thought our sleeping through the night days were over . Luckily , it was just a tummy ache and she was back to her regular schedule the next night . She is 13 weeks old today , and I imagine , up to about 12 pounds . She 's feeling a little heftier to me . It kind of sucks though because she is in between sizes . Don 't I know the feeling ? : op I 've brought out all her 3 - 6 month clothes , but she 's not quite out of the 0 - 3 stuff . Which translates to , there is a whole lot of baby clothes piled up in my room . What is that in her mouth ? Moving in for a closer look . . . . Ah yes , it 's that thumb she loves . Actually , she loves her left thumb . I 'll be ! My girl is ambidextrous . Notice the defensive wounds on her little nose . Apparently her fingernails got in a fight with her nose . Maybe to settle the dispute , the left thumb is not allowed in anymore so the right thumb had to pick up the slack . Hmm . . . . . . What ? No , I don 't get out much . Posted by We had a photographer come to the house to take some pics of Tess when she was 3 weeks old . Here are a few to preview . If you want to see more , click here . I love this photographer . She also took the pics of Tatum and Teagan last year . You can see those here towards the top of the page . Click through the pages to see her other work . If you 're local , you can get her contact info here . Tess is 3 months old ! I think we are on day 5 or 6 of sleeping through the night , which is just weird for me . But if this is a trend that wants to continue , I 'll accept it . I know it may not be such a big deal to some , but this is the first time I have had a baby just fall into a schedule . Pretty sad , considering I 've done this 4 times before . I co - slept with the rest of them . Tatum demanded it from birth on , so I didn 't even try the crib with Teagan . I assumed Tess would be a co sleeper too since her early days were similar to Tatum 's demeanor . But she has morphed into a mellow little person , much more reminicent of Travis 's early days . Don 't feel bad if you get confused when I throw out alot of names . I get confused sometimes too . She is starting to play with toys now , and smiling and laughing more . Unless the camera is around . Then she just stops to stare . Master of the Rings Teagan is still loving little sis . We 'll see how he feels in another year when she is swiping his toys . But for now , he says things like , Tess is cute . She smiled at me ! I yike Tess . Tatum still wants to hold Tess all the time , at least until she cries . Unless , of course , she is passed out on the couch . Posted by Last night was the third night of 8 hours of sleep for Tess . I don 't know how we got her on a schedule . But I like it ! I nursed her , then laid her down in her bed . She fussed for half a second , found her thumb , then promptly fell asleep . Pretty cool , huh ? Turn Ohio Blue ! I cannot even describe the feelings I had as I listened to Obama 's victory speech last night . Excitement , hope , peace . . . . . . . I know many others are feeling the same way . What a historic and hopeful time we are in . I was so happy when I watched Ohio turn blue on the map . I remember 4 years ago when it didn 't . I remember what I felt then , the disappointment , the fear , the grief , like my vote didn 't count , my voice wasn 't heard . But last night , the world heard loud and clear that Americans are ready for change , we 're ready for hope . And I believe this man , gave us that hope . Now that the election is over , and history has been made , I will get back to the taleing of the T 's . Unless I feel like talking politics , because that 's just how I operate . I 'm a spontaneous , fly off the handle , lack of a filter kind of girl . Oh wait , one more political thing . So Travis , my 8 yr old comes downstairs to tell me goodnight last night . I was watching MSNBC . He saw that McCain had won , I don 't know , like Alabama , and thought that meant he won the election . He seemed a little disappointed . I 'm not sure why because I certainly don 't discuss political things with my kids . I figure there is time for that when they are old enough to understand the issues . But somehow , both my boys picked up tidbits from school and decided who they liked . According to their friends , McCain is old and is about to die , and he is going to raise taxes . Where do kids get this stuff from ? Anyway , I tell him that no , that just means McCain won that state , but the election isn 't over . So he asks me , can you come and wake me up if Obama wins ? I say , can 't I just tell you in the morning ? No , you have to come and wake me up to tell me . Needless to say , I didn 't wake him up . I am proud though that my 11 yr old has supported the Democrats for the last 4 years , with no prodding from me . Really . So , back to the T 's . . . . . My baby girl slept 7 - 8 hours the last two nights in a row . I don 't know how , or even if it will ever happen again , but I am thankful . We ' vePosted by To update you on school : I 'm on week 4 of this term . I 've been putting off my health history assignment for my assessment class . I finally did it . It took me 3 hours , but it 's done . I love it when things are done . So far , I have a 98 % in Physical Assessment . Not sure about Communications because she doesn 't post the grades . Turned in the final draft of my expressive essay for communications . Moving onto my argumentative essay . Only 7 more weeks to go . Tatum and Teagan like each other , sometimes . I caught them watching TV like this . Right now , they are fighting . Tess found her thumb . She loves it . We had a bit of an adventure yesterday . Tess and I were on our way to a baby shower , when we stopped by Target for a baby gift . I have those goofy automatic locks on my van . You know , the ones with the lock button on your keys . I pushed the lock button on my way into the store but didn 't hear it click . I didn 't pay too much attention to it , but I 'm sure you can guess where this is going . When I came back out , I noticed that the side door hadn 't slid completely shut , hence , it didn 't lock . Not thinking this might mean that it still wanted to lock since I had pushed the button 20 minutes before , I stuck the diaper bag , with my keys and cell phone in it , between the seats , snapped Tess 's carseat in , slid the door shut and . . . . . . . . click ! Instantly , the doors locked . And immediately , I freaked out , which is why I can 't understand how parents can forget their kids in the car . Anyway , since my cell phone was in the now locked van , I had to run back into the store to ask for help . I 'm not sure how the lady understood me as I was near hyperventilating when I sobbed something like " Can I use the phone ? I locked my baby in the car . " She told me to go wait back outside and she would call for help . One of their security guards came to wait with me until the police came . Luckily , it was the only 70 degree day in NOVEMBER ! Unfortunately , not paying attention to the weather , I dressed her in fleece . She was amazingly calm , stuck there in her carseat , in an unmoving , hot van . Normally , if we 're not rolling , she 's not happy . But yesterday was a particularly good day for her . Good thing , because Mom wasn 't calm at all , especially when I noticed she was starting to sweat while waiting for the cop to mosey his way on out of his car to fiddle with my lock . Of course , they make you sign a release , which is understandable , but I was very near the " let 's just break a window , could you hurry the hell up , that 's my baby in there " stage . After 20 minutes of sweating , she was rescued , and none the worse for wear . We went on to the baby showerPosted by Took the kids to Bounce U this weekend for their open bounce , really early in the morning . No wonder they say jammies welcome . Everybody liked the ball blaster . This is one of the bounce pros helping Teagan climbed through an insanely tall web of stretchy , elastic cords . Tatum went up a few times and said it was pretty hard . Travis was pretty good at shooting hoops . Maybe we should have thought about basketball for him . I know , my camera doesn 't do action shots well , but I thought they were cool anyway . Posted by

If you know me , you know that photography has always been a big part of my life . Starting in 2009 , I decided it would be interesting ( at least to me ) to document a year with a photo a day . I finished my first year and I am starting my second . I am not sure I will be quite as diligent in Year 2 but I will try ! Just a quick photo I took this morning before I made Bill 's omelet . No real inspiration today for a posting about omelets so I will just wish my brother Angelo a Happy Cyberspace Birthday and leave it at that ! Oh , and celebrate completing my first month of my photo a day blog ! We live in a suburb in Central NY and it is very small town with only a few stores / restaurants . One of the places we have been frequenting since the day we moved here is Robbie T 's Pizza . Robbie T is one of the friendliest people we 've ever met and always has a smile on his face and a gregarious hello when you walk in the door . He is very active in the community and everyone loves him . I decided to employ my husband to be the guest photographer for the day since he was going to get the pizza and I wanted to start doing some pictures of the people in our neighborhood in the blog from time to time . I have been schooling Bill in how to take a good picture almost since we met so I knew I could trust him to get me a good photo of Robbie . He came back with great picture of him and a couple of his staff . So if you are ever in the area , stop by Robbie T 's and have a slice ! On my way home today , I took the ferry across Lake Champlain . It is something that I have done several times over the last few years and it never gets boring . I love seeing the Adirondacks on one side and the Green Mountains on the other side . Since it is the dead of winter , the lake is frozen . While I prefer this trip in the fall when the colors are vibrant , the winter is pretty cool too . My friend Brad was also on his way to NY so I convinced him to go on the ferry as well . As we hit the ice and watched it / heard it crack , Brad asked . . . " Haven 't these people ever seen the movie , Titanic ? " Ha ! I gave him a lesson on Champ , The Lake Monster . If look close at this picture , you can almost see Champ lurking in the deep dark icy waters , can 't you ? If you can 't , maybe Champ is visiting his cousin Nessie over in Scotland for the winter . Are you part of the craziness they call Facebook ? I actually had joined FB years ago when I worked at Cornell and then promptly forgot about it . It was not until a former student that worked in our office found me on my newest email address , that I remembered I had an account . He said I " facebooked " you and didn 't hear from you . Facebook ? I don 't have a facebook account . Well when I went to the site and did a search , I found . . . myself . By some miracle I remembered the password and so began the addiction ! Thanks Bryan ! So now I too use facebook at a verb . . . poke people . . . write on people 's walls . . . and update my status WAY TOO OFTEN ! Imagine if we traveled through life the way we do on facebook . Check out this video spoof from a BBC show . All that being said , it has been a wonderful way to reconnect with old friends , family and colleagues . I had dinner with an old friend from when I worked in Vermont . As mentioned before my job has me traveling to locations far and wide and so these FB connections sometimes become face to face re - connections . Here is a photo of Nicole , Christine and Ollie the puppy . Nicole was a student at Johnson State College when I was a Resident Director there . She was one of the amazing students who made my time in this sleepy little town in northern Vermont a memorable time in my life . I have worked in higher education for the almost 18 years and have interacted with thousands on students and Nicole is one that I made special bond with but we lost touch . Through the magic of FB , we are found . The ocean . . . the sea . . . crashing waves . . . sunrises . . . sunsets . . . sand beneath my feet . . warm sun on my face . . . HOME ! Anytime I am near the ocean , I feel at home . Whether it is in Westerly , RI or on the other side of the globe , just seeing the water makes me feel at ease . Undoubtedly , if I could live anywhere , it would be on the ocean . Not near the ocean but on it . Hear the waves crash in the morning is musical and powerful . I live near a small lake now but it is not the same . No waves . . . no smell of stinky seaweed . . . no salt in the air . I put up two photos today taken in Newcastle , NH . The one below I played with in terms of the focus but the one above is pretty much how I saw it this morning . This is my first full week back on the road for work and although I already did several visits , this was my first hotel stay of the semester since I stayed with friends and family last week . I am on the road about 3 - 4 days a week during each semester and spend a lot of times in hotels . I thought in honor of my " Road Warrior " life it would be appropriate to have photos from time to time of the hotels I stay in . They are usually pretty nondescript but when I walked into my hotel room today in Portsmouth NH , I saw a lot of my favorite color . Can you tell what it is ? As a child , my number one favorite thing to do was to go on the carousel . Growing up in RI and being at the beach everyday in the summer , I frequently went on the merry - go - round in Misquamicut . I had my favorite pony and had been known to wait ( somewhat impatiently ) if another child was on my horse . The best treat was when I got to go down to the Flying Horses Carousel in Watch Hill . The Flying Horses Carousel only operates in the summer , is the oldest carousel of it 's type in the U . S . and survived the 1938 hurricane which wiped out all the houses on Napatree Point , Watch Hill . What makes this carousel unique is that it does not have a platform and the horses fly out at it goes round and round . Much to my dismay , only children are allowed to ride this carousel and during the ride they have the chance to grab for rings . If you get the brass ring , you get a free ride . I brought my niece down there last summer for her first ride , I showed her my favorite horse and she wanted to ride that one too ! No doubt there will be photos of the Watch Hill Carousel when the summer comes around and I am in RI visiting my family . This photo is of the merry - go - round at the Carousel Mall in Syracuse , NY - not quite as spectacular as the carousels of my childhood memories , but I have ridden on this one too ! Since I had a late meeting in Boston on Friday and had to sit in traffic for over an hour , I decided to stop in Springfield to stay with my brother and niece rather than drive all the way home and not get there until after 10pm . It was great to see my brother out of the hospital and spend time with my niece . It was heartwarming to see the two of them together back at home . It made me think of our new President and his daughters and the letter he wrote to Sasha and Malia . Several times during dinner and without prompting , Angelee went up to my brother and hugged him saying , " I love you Daddy ! " I asked Angelee if she watched the inauguration and what she thought Sasha and Malia . " I want to be one of them , " she answered . Me too Angelee , me too ! When my brother said he wanted to be one of them too . She said , " You can 't . . . you 're A BOY ! ! ! " I may be biased by I think my niece is as cute as the Obama girls and has a daddy who loves her just as much ! Ok . . . I couldn 't resist putting up another picture or two ! One of the tattoo that my brother had done of a mermaid with my niece 's face and the other of Angelee acting like a goofy mermaid flopping into the sea . I was in Boston for a couple days this week and to stay with my " as American as apple pie " theme and the Chevy song from the January 21st post , I decided to highlight baseball . Now I could have found a Red Sox sign or the outside of Fenway but I decided to go with an icon that has been known to Bostonians and anyone who has watched a game in person or on TV at Fenway - The Citgo Sign . This sign has been part of the urban landscape since 1965 . When it was threatened to be demolished , like their Tea Party forefathers , Bostonians protested and succeeded ! Today the sign still shines in the Kenmore Square area and I feel badly for anyone who ever makes the decision to try to take it down in the future . This is Hugo of Jamaica Plain . I know it is supposed to patriotic week but I am sure if Hugo could have voted , he would have voted for Obama ! I also decided it is much more difficult to take pictures of cats instead of dogs . Mona responds when I say treat . . . Hugo . . . not so much ! Ok so this picture is neither pie nor real apples but you get the gist . Today was my first day out on the road for work . As I was getting ready to leave my house at 6am to trek 5 hours in a car to have a meeting , I quickly took this picture just in case I didn 't have time the rest of the day to get a " patriotic " picture . Who thought of this patriotic theme week anyway ? Anyway , I tried to convince my friends to pose for a patriotic photo but no luck so hence the apples in my kitchen . Here is some interesting wikipedia " facts " . Although apple pies have been eaten since long before the discovery of America , " as American as apple pie " is a common saying in the United States , meaning " typically American " . The dish was also commemorated in the phrase " for Mom and apple pie " - supposedly the stock answer of American soldiers in WWII , whenever journalists asked why they were going to war . Advertisers exploited the patriotic connection in the 1970s with the TV jingle " baseball , hot dogs , apple pie and Chevrolet " . There are claims that the Apple Marketing Board of New York State used such slogans as " An apple a day keeps the doctor away " and " as American as apple pie ! " , and thus " was able to successfully ' rehabilitate ' the apple as a popular comestible " in the early twentieth century when prohibition outlawed the production of cider . Leave it to the ingenuity of those New Yorkers to find a way to keep making money even when they were not drunk on cider ! And apparently our love for Chevy has stuck around according to this updated version of the commercial from the 70 's but now tauts stolen bases , goat cheese pizza , bottled water along with the Chevrolet I am giddy with excitement , full of hope and sad that I am in not in DC to witness " The Moment " in person ( which is why there is this photo I took from the TV ) . I was moved by the truth in his speech , the concern in his voice and the hope he has instilled in millions of people . We have a responsibility to work with him to make the changes he spoke about , to hold him and one another accountable and to come out of this difficult time in our country stronger , wiser and more open - minded to what we don 't know or understand . Here are President Obama 's words in case you missed it or want to read it again . My fellow citizens : I stand here today humbled by the task before us , grateful for the trust you have bestowed , mindful of the sacrifices borne by our ancestors . I thank President Bush for his service to our nation , as well as the generosity and cooperation he has shown throughout this transition . Forty - four Americans have now taken the presidential oath . The words have been spoken during rising tides of prosperity and the still waters of peace . Yet , every so often the oath is taken amidst gathering clouds and raging storms . At these moments , America has carried on not simply because of the skill or vision of those in high office , but because We the People have remained faithful to the ideals of our forbearers , and true to our founding documents . So it has been . So it must be with this generation of Americans . That we are in the midst of crisis is now well understood . Our nation is at war , against a far - reaching network of violence and hatred . Our economy is badly weakened , a consequence of greed and irresponsibility on the part of some , but also our collective failure to make hard choices and prepare the nation for a new age . Homes have been lost ; jobs shed ; businesses shuttered . Our health care is too costly ; our schools fail too many ; and each day brings further evidence that the ways we use energy strengthen our adversaries and threaten our planet . These are the indicators of crisis , subject to data and statistics . LPosted by I was hoping to head up to the Syracuse University campus for a candlelight vigil in honor of MLK but the snow and cold kept me inside where it is warm and dry . So instead Bill remembered he had a Martin Luther King , Jr . commemorative stamp . When we went to look for it , we found it was on a card with John F . Kennedy . These historical figures have delivered two of the most profound speeches ever given . Tomorrow Barack Obama will become our 44th President and he has already proven himself to be a great speaker . Here is a combination of the speeches of these three men . . . amazing ! In the long history of the world , only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger . I do not shank from this responsibility - I welcome it . I do not believe that any of us would exchange places with any other people or any other generation . The energy , the faith , the devotion which we bring to this endeavour will light our country and all who serve it - - and the glow from that fire can truly light the world . And so , my fellow Americans : ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country . My fellow citizens of the world : ask not what America will do for you , but what together we can do for the freedom of man . I say to you today , my friends , so even though we face the difficulties of today and tomorrow , I still have a dream . It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream . I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed : " We hold these truths to be self - evident , that all men are created equal . " But in the unlikely story that is America , there has never been anything false about hope . For when we have faced down impossible odds ; when we 've been told that we 're not ready , or that we shouldn 't try , or that we can 't , generations of Americans have responded with a simple creed that sums up the spirit of a people . YES WE CAN ! Posted by The title of this blog post is not something that most people have ever heard come out of my mouth . . . at least not in recent history . I can say that for the first time in a long time , I am hopeful and excited about what the future may hold for our country . I know we have a long way to go but feel like we have a much stronger person at the helm who was actually the choice of the American people . I will be thrilled when President - Elect Obama is finally President Obama . As we are about to embark upon a time of historical significance on so many fronts , I decided I am going to try take pictures this week with a focus on these events ! I wish I was able to be in DC for the inauguration but I will certainly be following the events on TV and online . I have been playing with some new camera equipment I got a couple days ago . This is the macro lens . You can also see me reflected in Mona 's eye so I guess it is a self portrait . Anyway , Mona does not quite get the concept that she is not a lap dog . She is not allowed on the couch but sometimes ( especially when it is cold ) I let her up to keep me warm . . . this is her chillin ' on my chest . As I was taking today 's picture , I thought about how cold the people must have been yesterday that were in the plane that went down into the Hudson River . It was called Miracle on the Hudson and it truly was as the pilot skillfully put down the plane in a way that all passengers and crew survived . Now if USAirway could hire people who were as adept at handling baggage , it would be a great airline . Seriously , kudos to the pilot and I am relieved that everyone came out of it alive . This photo is of a property near our house . Hopefully the people inside did not think I was casing the place . While I keep saying I am sick of winter , snow and cold , it is beautiful when the sun shines so bright on the snow and the sky is so blue ! You expected another cold weather picture . . . sorry to disappoint . It is FRIGID in central NY and pretty much in most of the U . S . ( except Southern CA of course ) . The high today in Jamesville , NY is supposed to be 4 degrees ! Are you kidding me ? ! ? ! I am really glad I didn 't make that trip to Minneapolis today where it is - 25 degrees ! So to add a touch of heat to the blog , the dried hot peppers came out of hiding from their little container . These are actually peppers I grew in the garden 2 years ago and they have been drying ever since . Luckily I don 't have to go out anywhere today and my heat is working so I think I will stay put and get some work done ! . . . in my hands . As I prepare for my " road warrior " life to begin again , I thought it appropriate to photograph a small globe ornament we have in our home . While I can 't say I am eager to start driving hundreds of miles a week again , I am excited to share the world with college students . My job advises students , faculty and staff at colleges and universities around the northeast about the options we have for study abroad with Arcadia . We have train tracks behind our house . When we first moved it , I was jarred awake every night / early morning to the sound of the train whistle as there is also a railroad crossing signal just down the road . I swear the conductor blew that whistle for 2 miles on either side of that crossing . It did not take long before I could barely hear it and now at night , I sleep right through it . Too bad that is not the case with my husband 's snoring ! Anyway , as I was taking this picture today , I thought of an old Good n Plenty commercial . I am not sure how I remember this commercial as it supposedly stopped running before I was born . Posted by I am embracing the snow . . . like I have a choice ! We currently have at least a foot on the ground here in Central NY so you will likely see more snow photos before the winter is done . So is it true that no 2 snowflakes alike ? Here is what they say at CalTech . And there are some pretty cool galleries of snowflake pictures from someone with the right technology to take these pictures . Here is my attempt to capture the individuality of each flake . If you click on the picture , you can see some of the flakes up close . We went to see Slumbdog Millionaire yesterday and one of the storylines was about the book The Three Musketeers . Do you know that name of the original 3 musketeers ? I thought I did but I was wrong . Anyway , go see it ! It was a great story , cinematography was wonderful and characters were interesting . When Bill and I were getting to know each other , I saw him doodling on a piece of paper and noticed him drawing spirals . I was intrigued because whenever I doodled ( which I do frequently ) spirals were always part of my repertoire and I like them in design items and art . I found out that spirals for Bill was a part of the Celtic history / traditions ( of which he is obsessed ) that he knows so well . When I first went to New Zealand , I found this symbol is also important in New Zealand and Maori culture . It is called the koru and is prominent in the landscape and design of kiwi life . " The spiral is the most ancient symbol found on every civilized continent . Due to its appearance at burial sites across the globe , the spiral most likely represented the " life - death - rebirth " cycle . Similarly , the spiral symbolized the sun , as ancient people thought the sun was born each morning , died each night , and was reborn the next morning . " This is a piece that we bought and you will find spirals all over our home . . . one design feature we DO agree on . This image makes me want to curl up in the chair , light a fire in the fireplace and read a good book . Seeing this photo makes me realize I don 't spend enough time here . It is my favorite room in our home and I need to enjoy it more ! I am sure I am dating myself with this one but when I saw this picture once I downloaded on my computer , it reminded me of Miss Molly or Miss Jean ( ok I don 't remember her name ) and the Magic Mirror . " Romper , bomper , stomper , boo . Tell me , tell me , tell me do . Magic mirror , tell me today . Did all my friends have fun at play ? " Life was so much easier especially when Miss Molly would look through her Mirror in Romper Room and see WENDY ! ! ! ! Paul Simon says it best . . . " They give us those nice bright colors They give us the greens of summers Makes you think all the world 's a sunny day , Oh yeah I got a Nikon camera I love to take a photograph So mama don 't take my Kodachrome away " Film was the name of the game when I first got interested in photography . I remember pouring over black and white photos when I was the yearbook editor in high school . Wow . . . that makes me sound old ! And when digital first came out , I resisted for a long time . I wasn 't going to do any of that digital new fangled stuff . I was a photo purist - I developed my own film , printed my own pictures ( color and B & W ) , and believed the quality is so much better with film and paper . Well like most photographers ( professional and amateurs ) , I sold out . Digital has come a long way , but sometimes I still miss the smell of the chemicals in the dark room . I have a collection of old cameras and photo items that I started probably about 10 years ago . I am sure they will make it into the photo a day blog at some point . So here is the first shout out to George Eastman and Kodak . The company is in nearby Rochester , NY ( RaChaCha to those in the know ) and has been there since the late 1800 's . There is a great museum so if you ever in that area , check out the George Eastman House . Today just about got away from me with the craziness of getting ready for the semester . In trying to keep with my photo a day project , I decided to go outside and do some night photos - not a big deal if you live in Florida , but in Central NY I could get frostbite . Of course it may have made sense to put a jacket on before I went outside . As you can see , I fibbed a little when I said we were taking down our Christmas decorations . . . we got all of the inside ones down ( that took about 4 hours ) but didn 't get to the outside decorations yet so this was the subject of todays photo . I did used a tripod and the timer to keep it in focus . The more I look at this photo , I think we may actually leave those lights up as we use that patio a lot when it 's warmer ! Posted by So today I went to Wegman 's ( fondly referred to as Weggie World in our house ) and I thought I may find a good subject to photograph there since it is almost as big as Disney Land . Well stupid me forgot the camera in the car which I had to park far far away because apparently EVERYONE in Syracuse shops at 12 noon on a Sunday . . . I knew there was a reason I usually went early in the morning ! To make matters worse , the shopping cart driving in Weggie World was abysmal . So choice two was to capture the last moment of our Christmas decorations . We are finally done procrastinating and are taking them down . So today 's picture is a photo of our tree before it became naked once more . There are only 354 days until Christmas 2009 . . . will YOU be on the naughty or nice side of the list ? The first thing I saw when I walked outside this morning , was glittering snowflakes coming down . Not a particular surprise in Central NY in January ; however , I decided to grab the camera as Mona was outside doing her business . I took a few photos and my favorite was the one above where the flash created these orb like images around the wind chime . It has me reflecting on family and friends who have moved on from this world , but I still feel connected to them . The Christmas season is always a bittersweet time in our family because my mom 's birthday was December 22nd or 25th ( a story for another time ) , the last time she was home from the hospital for a day was Christmas eve 1986 and today ( 3 January ) is the day my mom passed away 22 years ago . This year was difficult for the family again as my brother , Angelo , has been in the hospital for a month dealing with complications from his diabetes . He was not able to spend Christmas eve with us this year but we went up to see him in the hospital on Christmas day . He is doing much better as I write this post and here 's hoping that he will be out of the hospital soon because I know he misses his daughter and she misses him ! Posted by Clementines ! ! ! I am not really sure when I first discovered the juicy sweetness of a little clementine but I know I look forward to the season every winter . What is a clementine , you ask ? Well even if you didn 't . . . too bad . Thanks to Produce Pete for this excellent description . " Clementine 's are the tiniest of the mandarins . Imported from Spain , Morocco , and other parts of North Africa , clementines are a cross between a sweet orange and a Chinese mandarin . They are small , very sweet , and usually seedless . Most people think of clementines as small tangerines , but they 're a different variety entirely , with a distinctive taste . Clementines have been available in Europe for many years , but the market for them in the United States was made only a few years ago , when a devastating freeze in Florida made domestic oranges scarce and expensive . The origin of clementines is shrouded in mystery . Some attribute their discovery to father Clement , a monk in Algeria , who tending his mandarin garden in the orphanage of Misserghim , found a natural mutation . He nurtured the fruit tree and subsequently called it " clementino " . Others , like Japanese botanist Tanaka , believe that clementines must have originated in Asia and found their way through human migration to the Mediterranean . Whatever their origin , the fact is that clementines found their natural climate and soil in Spain , where they developed their particular aroma , sweetness and taste . " I was l lucky enough to be in Spain during clementine season a few years ago and happily ate several of these delectable bursts of citrus that I bought from the market in Barcelona . This year I had to depend on Wegmans for my clementine fix . In fact I think I will go have one right now ! Happy 2009 ! Here is the first photo of my photo a day blog taken on New Year 's Day of my sweet Mona . There is over 9 inches of snow from the day before but today was a bright sunny day and VERY cold . Mona braved it to be my subject for my first photo ! She loves the snow , although she does come in a bit quicker these days as she is getting older and doesn 't like the cold quite as much . She will be 9 ( or 63 in dogs years ) in February . I still remember the day I picked her up from the Farmers Market in Ithaca . Went down to get some produce and found this tiny 2 month old pup in the back of a pickup truck looking for a new home . She has been a faithful companion ever since .

We had 24 people in our house tonight . All of my Mom 's side of the family ( minus one ) came over to celebrate my Grandma 's 80th birthday , my Great Aunt and Uncle 's anniversary ( 63 years I think ) , and my Mom 's 51st birthday . Mom always gets super - stressed out before company comes over . The house has to be spot - less , because our guests might notice the cobweb on the baseboards in the corner of the front living room that no one ever even goes into . I wonder if my family is alone in this . I think that 's why I feel guilty whenever anyone comes to visit my apartment and it 's not perfectly clean . Even if I know that my guests really don 't care , I can feel my Mom 's disapproval . The dinner went really well though , in spite of the stresses of prepping for it . Also , Grandma loved the gift I organized the 10 of us grandchildren to create - a heart made of puzzle pieces , each decorated by one of us . Ta - da ! ! My goodness , this took longer to type up than I expected . Some interesting tidbits about me in it though . A : Attached or Single ? Oh so single . . . for oh such a long time . It 's to the point where I know own a cat and consider myself borderline crazy cat lady . B . Best Friend ? I have quite a few really close friends . . . Jim and I have been " best friends " for the longest , but then there are Mel , Stace , Sarah , Jessica , my sisters , and newest of all , Sam . C : Cake or pie ? It depends , is it chocolate pie ? Because if it is , then my answer is pie - but I don 't like other types of pie really so otherwise my answer is cake . Chocolate cheese cake ! D : Day of choice ? During the summer , it was the last day of my camp block . This upcoming semester , it will most likely be Thursday or Friday , but it 's hard to tell . It varies depending on what I am doing that semester . E : Essential Item ? I am crazy - dependent on my electronics , so perhaps my computer , or ipod , or cell phone . F : Favorite color ? Green ! ! ! G : Gummy bears or worms ? Worms , especially if they 're sour . Sour gummies are pretty much the best thing ever , no matter what form they come in . H : Hometown ? Beautiful Wallaceburg . I : Favorite indulgence ? Tim Horton 's breakfast sandwich with bacon . Seriously . If I could only have one food for the rest of my life , that 's it . J : January or July ? July ! ! Beautiful warm summer days and warm starry night trumps freezing , gray , and snowy any day . K : Kids ? Undecided . I plan to work with kids for a living , so why bother having my own when others will pay me to take care of theirs ? For now , I have Thunder Kitty , who is about as much work to care for as a child is . L : Life isn 't complete without ? Thunder Kitty , family , and friends . M : Marriage date ? Probably a loooong time in the future . But when it comes , it 'll be in the summer . N : Number of brothers and sisters ? Two little sisters , no brothers . O : Oranges or apples ? Orange juice over apple juice . But apples themselves over oranges . P : Phobias ? Does Generalized Anxiety Disorder count as a phobia ? LErin W As my youngest sister is the only child still living at home with the parents , but does not have her full driver 's license yet , she doesn 't get out much . Mom and Dad 's place is pretty much in the middle of nowhere , especially when you 're 16 years old . So , whenever I come to visit , I take her shopping . Mom and Dad don 't have time or energy to take her out anymore , and I might feel a tad bit guilty that she is stuck at home during her teenage years by herself at home . Today , I took the little one back to school shopping . I can now understand why Mom always hated taking us back to school shopping . There are mothers and children everywhere , most of them arguing about the brands of school supplies they are allowed to get . The aisles are lined with boxes full of colourful school supplies , everything you could possibly ever need and more , half of which have been knocked onto the floor , so that between the supplies on the floor and the children standing around in the middle of the aisle it 's nearly impossible to get your cart through . And then , when you have something to say to the student that you 're shopping with , they 've wandered off and you 're talking to a random sullen - looking teen with her arms full of pens and binders who is giving you a rather pissed off look for even thinking you could talk to her . You then get to give your opinion on what type of pencil looks the best and what kind of binder will work the best for her course schedule and wait around while she decides what will work for her , and at the end you get to shell out the money for over - priced school supplies you most likely will never see again . No wonder Mom hated it . I 'm a little sad that I don 't get to have a " back to school " this year , though . I always used to love getting all of the new supplies . It was a chance to start out fresh , you never knew what the upcoming year would hold , but there was always a promise of change - brand new classes that you would meet new people in , and you could guarentee it wouldn 't be like last year . This is my last new sthought . . . I think that perhaps this year has also taught me to see the bright side in everything . It always could be worse . Yeah , we were in a giant bus crash , but the worst we came out of it with were some cuts and bruises and some post - traumatic stress . Besides , I got to ride shot - gun in the ambulance . It also showed me how genuinely caring people who don 't even know you can be . Like the doctor who was driving down the highway and stopped to check and see that everyone was okay , even though that probably breached some sort of medical insurance thing . Or the paramedics who tried to cheer us up as we were couched in the mud under a cement overpass by joking around with us . Or the people who went out of their way to make sure that we made the flight on time . Or the nurse from Montreal and the guy who brought his dog around to the hospital patients . And sure , Mom was diagnosed with cancer , but it was caught early and is one of the most treatable kinds . It taught me to rely on my new friends from class , because they were there to support me whenever I needed it , so I knew I was never alone . And it was amazing how our family , our extended family , and our network of friends could really pull together and support Mom through it . And yup , my car was broken into , but it wasn 't stolen and I got it mostly intact . And at least it happened where my Grandparents and Aunt could come rushing over and help me deal with it . Most of all , this year has taught me how important my friends are , and how super supportive they can be . So I guess I am pretty lucky after all . I was thinking today about 2008 and how much it has sucked . Yes , sucked is probably the best word I can use to describe it . Up until this year , though , life has been pretty good . Sure I 've had my share of problems , but no real major life events like I 've experienced this year . It 's almost as though all of the unfortunate things have waited and piled up and spilled out onto my life all at once . Do things happen just because they happen , or is there some sort of plan behind it all ? I think both options scare me a bit . The thought of everything being completely out of anyone 's control is terrifying , but , yet , so is the thought that someone ( God , perhaps ) has planned it out that terrible things do happen to people . Completely feeding into my anxiety disorder , this year has taught me more than anything to never assume that everything is going to be okay , which , in my mind at least , means always be prepared for the worst possible outcome . I planned my whole life that I would grow up and go to university so that I could go to teacher 's college , so what happens when I don 't get in ? I got on the bus assuming that I would arrive in the Everglades and get to see alligators , so what happens when the bus crashes along the way ? I always assumed that Mom and Dad would be healthy and be able to take care of things , so what happens if they aren 't and therefore can 't ? I thought that my car would be okay overnight , so what if it 's not ? I really like plans , I have discovered . I don 't so much like winging it , figuring stuff out as it comes along - that makes me anxious . I feel most calm and confident when I know what I am doing and know what to do in every possible scenario . But it seems like lately life hasn 't been following any plans . . . at least not my plans . So then what ? What do you do when life doesn 't follow your plans - the ones you assume will work out exactly the way you expect them ? Albert Einstein once said : " Life is like riding a bicycle . To keep your balance you must keep moving . " And Dorey in " Finding Nemo " at one point thought " Year of Creativity - YOC - is designed to stimulate something we all have in common : creativity . It is a starting point from which to explore the amazing potential of small changes and the infinite opportunities they offer . YOC is an invitation to be more curious and more imaginative . It is a catalyst that promotes real and virtual opportunities for us all to discuss and compare our own creativity . It is a space in which the endless personalities inside us can express themselves , as only those who are inwardly creative can also be creative with the world at large . The first initiative in the YOC project is " Be the Change " , an entertaining and ironic way of expressing our multiple identities through a set of highly original , personalized business cards . " I am loving these ! Very clever . . . makes me want to have my own business cards . And of course the " Be the Change " theme is my favourite thing ever . By " it " I mean today . Here 's an overview of the events : 1 ) In the morning I went into placement to finish up business there and to present the Plan of Care Review I had to write for one of the clients . It was great to be back , and really great to see my camp team mates again . And to have one of the kids tell you over and over how pretty you look ( aka , you look clean and like you 've put at least minimal effort into your appearance ) . However , the client couldn 't make it to the review , so I did not have to present it , which was both good and bad because I would have liked to have the experience of presenting but nice that I didn 't have to do it . So I said my goodbyes and left placement for the last time . It was sad knowing that I 'll likely never see or work with the kids there again , and I really liked the agency and the clients . 2 ) So I had time to waste in Toronto . But I also had a giant backpack and a big handbag - and I learned that those items are no fun to navigate through the Eaton Centre . I ended up giving up on shopping after a few purchases and heading to Union Station crazy early for my train . I spent the hours at Union reading and pretending not to people - watch . There was a super - cute family near me , with an adorable little girl who couldn 't be more than 5 . I watched as her Dad brushed her hair back into a neat pony tail ( certainly better than I could do ) and then she played cards with her older too - cool looking brother , who wowed her with card tricks . And then there was the playfully bickering well - dressed young couple . And the woman and her very young daughter who multiple times left their bags in my care as Mom needed to go outside for smokes , and who was hesitant to allow her daughter to read a story book in the station as she might lose it . 3 ) On the train ride home , I got a text message from my little sister : " Mom 's tumor is gone . " I immediately called home . Mom had an appointment in London today , a pre - surgery check I think . Anyways , the doctor went to look at the tumor , and it wasn 't there . The chemthought Tomorrow , I am taking the train to Toronto . I am taking it to Toronto , staying at my apartment overnight , presenting the Plan of Care Review I 'm doing at my placement , and heading home on the train Tuesday night . True , I could drive . I feel like I 've been driving all over the place this summer , from Toronto to Collingwood and back , and from there Toronto to my parents ' place and back . Driving , especially on the 400 - series highways used to make me so happy , but now I find it just wears me out . So I decided to take the train . . . and I am ridiculously and childishly excited for it . In fact , this train trip may just be the highlight of my summer vacations . I 've been prepping for days , making lists of things to bring and such . I am a giant nerd . Why am I so excited ? I get to relax for three and a half hours each way and just watch South - Western Ontario fly past me . I 'll be lulled into a daze , just staring out the window by the gentle rocking of the train . I 'll have time to catch up on reading instead of having to worry about which lane of the highway I should be in . And there 's just something so romantic about train travel . Like in Casablanca - Humphrey Bogart receiving Ingrid Bergman 's note in the Paris train station . Okay , that scene wasn 't really romantic , as she was leaving him , but it was full of romance in a 1940s film noir way . And so , in my train riding imagination , I am a film noir heroine , in a pencil skirt , blouse , and trench coat , my head covered by a large - brimmed hat that shades my face , about to meet my fast - talking hero in a fedora and a nice suit , who will whisk me away to Paris . Again , I am a giant nerd . Who am I kidding . . . starting ? ? It 's been an obsession for a while now . I 'm loving the new Matt & Nat collection for fall . Loving may be an understatement for a few of these bags . If anybody 's feeling especially generous , there 's the overnight bag - Streamline , Kravitz and the laptop case - Streamline , Jobs . KravitzJobsBeautiful . Alright , so the actor in the new Divine Brown Video for Lay It On the Line is freaking hot . I cannot find out who he is anywhere , maybe because Divine Brown is a Canadian artist ? Any ideas anyone ? I took these screenshots from the YouTube video : So , my Mom has cancer . That statement has only recently started to feel real . She went for a colonoscopy back in April , and they found a polyp , which they biopsied . After the longest week of my life , she got the biopsy results back , and there it was , Mom has cancer . Awesome timing - right in the middle of exams , just as I 'm finishing up my first placement , oh , and I 'm about a 4 hour drive away from home . I think I went numb for a bit . Nobody close to me has ever had cancer before , or any potentially terminal illness for that matter . That sort of stuff happens in other people 's families , not mine , right ? But there was no denying it . This was real . Mom was always the one to come to my rescue , so what happens when she can 't be the strong one anymore ? Completely selfish , I know , but what happens to me if Mom can 't be there ? And how do you take care of someone who always takes care of you ? I cried a lot , but never in front of Mom , or any of the rest of my family . I felt like I had to be strong for them . So my wonderful CYW ladies helped me get by and I made it to the end of the semester . Mom was supposed to have surgery right away to get rid of that tumor . After that she was supposed to have chemotherapy and radiation and then it would be over . But things don 't seem to go according to plans any more . The tumor had gone through the bowel wall , it was worse than they originally thought . So the surgery had to be postponed . Chemo and radiation had to come first to shrink down the tumor first . That tumor that was discovered and drastically changed our lives . So I spent the majority of my summer driving to my parents ' house to spend as much time with Mom as I could and to help out any way I could . Meanwhile , Mom had to make the hour - and - a - half each way trip to Windsor every day to get her treatments . The treatments finished mid - summer , and now we wait . Mom and Dad look more tired than I 've ever seen them . It 's interesting how priorities change though . For me , friends were put on the backburner in favour of going home whenever I got tthought LeRoi Moore , a member of the Dave Matthews Band died a few days ago . I 'm still shocked . DMB has been my favourite band for years , and I just saw the band , including LeRoi , in concert mid - June of this year , and it was perhaps the greatest concert ever . LeRoi was an excellent musician and an integral part of the Band . He will be missed , the Dave Matthews Band will not be the same without him . It 's been a couple of years now since I closed my old blog . . . and I 've been considering starting a new one for a while . It 's been a difficult year , being so far away from my family , in a field where I work with really tough kids , the bus crash back in January , and Mom 's cancer . I think it will be therapeutic to write . I 've missed having a spot to pour out my thoughts , as well as to post things of interest , Facebook just doesn 't cut it for that purpose anymore . So that 's that . Here I am . We 'll see how this goes . I 'm a 20 - something small town girl living in the big city , perpetually single and living on my own for the very first time in a bachelor pad with my cat . I 'm already a university graduate , I 've just graduated from college , and I 'm trying to find my very first real " grown up " job . However , I 'm not really sure what I want to do and where I want to be . I love the Dave Matthews Band , my kitten , making collages , retail therapy , and camping .

Happy Tuesday everyone ! I hope you all had a great weekend . Mine was absolutely wonderful . After run club on Saturday morning , I hopped in the car and headed up to my parents lake home . 3 of my 4 siblings were there and my niece and all of my nephews were there ! We had the best time . The weather was absolutely perfect , so we were outdoors all day , besides watching the men 's gymnastics on Saturday night . And to sleep of course ! We ate well , relaxed in the sun , celebrated my oldest nephew 's birthday , and just soaked up the time together . I made some progress on a new scarf I 'm knitting , and I read quite a bit of my book . So all in all , it was a wonderful weekend . I was so sad to see it end ! But luckily I will be back there next weekend ! By the time I got home Sunday night at 9 : 30 , I felt as tired as Charlie looks in this photo . All that time outdoors wears a person out ! And yes , I have a million freckles . . . and they are not small and cute - they are big blotches . Oh well , I can 't avoid , so I just embrace them ! ! Like I said , it was a wonderful weekend and I feel like I truly relaxed this weekend . Don 't get me wrong - I have had an enjoyable summer and have relaxed , but my pending CFA results were always in the back of my mind . . . It 's kind of like waiting to really , truly exhale for 7 + weeks . It 's nice to put that exam in my past and focus on enjoying my freedom ! My only regret is not getting a photo of Anna and my 5 nephews ! ! They aren 't all together very often so I am kicking myself for missing this opportunity to get a picture . Hopefully we 'll all be back together for Thanksgiving or Christmas . Do you have freckles ? If so , do you like them ? If not , do you wish you had freckles ? I have always just sort of accepted the fact that I have freckles so am sort of ambivalent about them . But when people see me in person I get a lot of - ' whoa , you have a lot of freckles ' comments ! I am a little bit envious of my little sister as she has this cute dusting of little freckles instead of blotches like I have ! Wow , I 'm 1 / 3 of the way through training ! I know that the next 2 / 3 will fly by as well ! October 21st still seems far off , but I know it will come fast . What 's Working : My long runs are going really , really well . Like better than any other marathon training cycle . I think this is due to the fact that I came into marathon training with a very nice base amount of miles . Actually , I looked back on my training and was surprised to find that I ran more miles in the months of April and May than I did in the month of July last year when I was training hard for my half marathon . So clearly all those miles I put in between March - May are helping me now . I 've increased my long runs a little faster than a Hal Higdon schedule would call for , but I 'm listening to my body and my coaches , and I know I 've made good decisions so far . What I 'm Struggling With : Pace work is REALLY hard for me . Like really hard . We did a run this week where we did 1 mile at marathon pace and then 4 x 1200m at half marathon pace . I hit my pace for the 1 mile and 2 of the 4 1200 , but the last 2 1200s were ugly . Part of it is the extreme humidity we 've had lately . It 's like running through stream . I got really frustrated on Wednesday as I was running those last 2 1200s at a slower pace than I ran my half marathon last fall . . . and I was working REALLY hard ( i . e . panting and wanting to die ) but when I was not all that winded when I ran my half last fall . Yes it was work , but not THAT much work . BUT - it was also about 40 degrees cooler when I ran my half last fall and there was no humidity . And I know I went through this frustrating phase last summer . It 's just part of the process . I had a great run on Thursday in cooler , less humid temps , though , which restored some of my confidence . Monday : 7 . 25 miles of hills at a 9 : 43 pace . This was a tough run as it was very humid that night . Tuesday : Biked 8 miles on the stationary bike before work . Wednesday : 7 mile run w / an overall pace of 9 : 42 . Pace work : 1 mile @ 8 : 55 , 4 x 1200m repeats @ 8 : 40 , 8 : 50 , 8 : 54 , 9 : 02 ( ugly , ugly run for me ) . Thursday : 4 miles @ 8 : 52 pace . This was an awesome run for me and showed me how the humidity had been impacting my runs as it was only 82 this day and not humid , and the run went great . How has the weather been where you are ? Has it impacted your training ? I am trying to remind myself that this heat and humidity will make me a strong runner come fall when the temps cool and the humidity eases . But right now , moving to Seattle sounds awfully tempting . . . . 5 posts later , I am finally getting around to recapping Amber 's wedding ! It 's hard to believe it was almost 3 weeks ago - time has flown since then . . . and just as we knew it would , her wedding day flew by . Luckily I got a decent number of photos ! You really should also go check out Kelly 's recap as she got some amazing shots and it 's fun reading her perspective of the day ! ! The day got started pretty early as Amber had to get her hair curled and set at 7 : 30 and I was next at 8 : 30 . The time spent getting ready went pretty fast . In a matter of hours we went from looking like this . . . I really , really liked the bridesmaid dress . She picked them out and ordered them from a wedding shop in St . Paul when she came to visit me last year ( where she also got her beautiful dress ! ) , and I had a decent amount of influence on the selection . Amber went with these dresses because of the color and the fact that we thought it would be flattering on everyone . I think we were right - this is one of the most flattering ( and comfortable ) bridesmaid dresses I 've worn , and I think everyone looked beautiful in the dress ! ! See for yourself - here I am with 3 of the other bridesmaids ! Before we knew it , it was time for the ceremony to start ! The ceremony was held on a grassy area that overlooked the ocean . It was a stunning setting and this wedding goes down as the most beautiful weddings I 've attended ! And I ended up giving a little impromptu speech when Amber 's brother called on the audience for other speeches . There were a decent number of bloggers at the wedding , so it was fun to speak and represent this area of her life . It totally looks like I am singing in this photo - I promise I 'm not . Thanks , Kelly , for capturing this moment on film ! After dinner , Anais , Amber , Kelly , and I got together for a quick photo . I really loved spending time with these girls . I just wish we lived closer so we could all be together more often ! We all just get along so well . We were definitely all meant to meet each other . : ) So there you have it . I really can 't even attempt to do this day justice . The wedding was so beautiful and there were so many great details from the lemonade stand ( which was a hit ) to the photo booth to the dessert table to the beautiful sunflower decor . It was a beautiful day and Amber was literally glowing . It 's a wonderful thing to watch a wonderful friend get married to someone that you know will make her incredibly happy - and vice versa . The day after the wedding , I was so sad to say good bye , I ended up crying . I am not one to cry when saying good bye ( it totally surprised Amber ! ) , but I was just so sad to see the wedding weekend come to an end . It was just wonderful spending so much time around Amber , Anais , and Kelly - I hope we are reunited again soon ! I feel so blessed to have been a part of Amber 's wedding day . The fact that I was a bridesmaid is a testament to the authenticity of friendships that can be formed through blogging . It 's an unconventional way to meet , but I am so very thankful that blogging brought us together ! I do not know what I would do without Amber in my life ! ! Have you made friends through blogging ? As you all know , I have met so many great friends through blogging ! I 'm thankful everyday for the people I have in my life as a result of starting this little blog . First things first - thank you for the congratulatory comments on my last post ! I feel so blessed to have so many people in my life that care about me ! I was completely spoiled on Tuesday - from steak sandwiches at lunch to macaroons in the afternoon to flowers from my parents to a flourless chocolate torte at happy hour to dinner with my aunt and uncle ! The day was full of celebration ! ! Now I fully intend to enjoy the next 5 months of my life ( I 'll start studying for level III on December 26th , but I am blocking that out of my mind for now ! ) . Back to the vacation recap ! When I last left off , we had just finished up brunch in Vancouver , and went our separate ways . We didn 't get much accomplished after brunch as traffic was so bad and it was taking forever to get anywhere , so we headed back to the hotel to meet up with the rest of the bridal party . Amber had made manicure and pedicure appointments for the bridal party . I rarely get manicures or pedicures , so this was quite a treat . Plus , she found a place that allowed us to bring in our own alcohol , so we brought a couple of bottles of wine to really aid in the relaxation process . I got to sit next to Amber : ) It was incredibly relaxing to sip on wine while someone dealt with my poor feet which are totally beat up thanks to my high arches + marathon training . Amber and I on his rooftop patio . He has the most amazing views of Vancouver . It was a beautiful night , so we ate dinner up on the patio . It was heavenly ! Dinner was AH - MAZING . The chef took into account my gluten intolerance so he made me my own special salad ( the others had a panzanella salad ) . That cheese on top of the salad was flown in from Italy ( I usually avoid dairy but couldn 't skip a specially flown in cheese ! ) ! He also served tenderloin , salmon , and a corn dish . The corn dish might have been my favorite part of the meal - it had truffle oil and a hint of jalapeno . It was to die for ! It was wonderful to watch the sun set over the city of Vancouver . I was sad to see my time in Vancouver end , but of course I was excited to head to the Sunshine Coast for Amber 's wedding ! ! We were up bright and early on Sunday morning . I went to mass at a beautiful cathedral in downtown Vancouver , and then I met up with Amber and Kelly for coffee before we left Vancouver for the Sunshine Coast ! We had a short drive to the ferry terminal , and then we were off . We had the rehearsal and welcome dinner that evening , but I was not so great about taking photos so have none to share . The rehearsal went really , really smoothly , and the dinner was delicious . Amber and I shared a room that night so I had the honor of spending the last night with her as a single lady ! She was cool , calm , and so excited for the next day - as was I ! Oh how I love wedding weekends ! Have you ever been on a ferry before ? Besides taking ferries to Victoria and the Sunshine Coast , I also took a ferry between the north and south islands of New Zealand - but that was a HORRIBLE experience . Unbeknownst to us , that stretch of water is known for being choppy . So many people got sick on that ferry . I was kind of afraid of them since that experience , but it 's a very calm , easy ride on the waters around the BC area ( at least in my experience ) . I have wonderful news to share - I found out this morning that I passed my level II CFA exam ! ! 42 % of those who took it passed - so I feel really good about being in that group ! : ) The wait for the results was excruciating and , in my opinion , cruel . Others got their results emails over an hour before mine . I get that they are sending out 85 , 000 emails , but seriously . Take part of the $ 600 exam fee and buy a better server . But all that matters is that I passed ! We are celebrating with steak sandwiches ( sans the bread for me ) and I am relishing the feeling of sweet relief . You all know how hard I worked for this ; it 's such a relief to know that hard work payed off ! Thanks to all of you for the support , encouragement , and ' you can do it ' comments . I 'm only 5 weeks in , but training is going really well so far . I 'm feeling healthy and my long runs are going well - which is such a confidence booster . This isn 't my first marathon , so I know I have tough runs ahead of me , as they are an inevitable part of training , but I am enjoying these strong runs while they last . Besides PR ' ing , another goal of mine for this marathon training session is to stay healthy . Obviously , that is a goal we all want to achieve , but I am trying some new things to help me accomplish this goal . First , I am really focusing on cross training and strength training . The other thing I am doing is seeing a chiro for ART ( active release technique ) therapy . Amber recommended it to me as she did ART to help with some of the tightness in her calves . In my case , I struggle with knee pain caused by patella femoral , and after doing some research , I found that ART can help . So what is ART ? Well , to dumb it down , it 's a massage technique that treats problems with muscles , tendons , ligaments , fascia , and nerves . I had my initial assessment about a month ago and was happy that this chiro came up with the same conclusion as the PT I saw 2 years ago for my knee pain : weak hips and a weak right glute . I won 't bore you with the details of it , but long story short , the chiro finds areas of tightness and massages them . It 's a pretty intense type of massage - sort of akin to the pain of foam rolling , but times 10 , I 'd say . It 's a ' hurt so good ' type of feeling , though , and I noticed a difference right away . Luckily it is covered by insurance and since I met my out of pocket maximum already , I don 't even have to pay a co - pay . So that is nice . I saw him a couple of times before my trip and now I will go to him on an as needed basis when I start to feel some tightening / knee pain . The nice thing is that you notice a difference immediately . I am so glad I looked into this type of therapy ! Monday : Hills in the heat , 6 . 35 miles @ 10 : 43 pace . This run was VERY difficult as it was 97 and very humid . I was so tired at the end , I could barely talk . Our coaches kept a close eye on us and got us popsicle for after the run , which helps lower your core temperate . This is probably the hardest / worst run of this training cycle . Saturday : 15 miles @ 9 : 47 pace . It down poured for much of this run - and there was some thunder and lightening , so it was a bit nerve wracking , but I had a great run despite the elements . The rain actually kept me cool so I did not feel fatigued at the end ! Sunday : 1 hour and 45 minutes of kayaking . It was my first time , and I LOVED it . A friend from run club took me and we had a blast and saw 4 lakes ( Cedar , Isles , Calhoun , and Brownie ) ! ! It was a great arm workout and a peaceful way to end a great weekend . When I last left off , I was in Seattle . I woke up on Friday morning without the aid of an alarm as I was SO excited to start the next leg of the trip ( ok , and I was still on CST ) . This post is going to be a tad bit long , but bear with me ! I am so glad we did this leg of the trip together . Luckily we got seated together on the train ride . We spent the 4 + hours talking pretty much non - stop . There were absolutely no awkward moments . I bet the guy who sat with us never would have guessed that we hadn 't met in person before that day . Before we knew it , we had arrived in Vancouver . We quickly made it through customs ( after getting grilled ! ) , and went to our respective hotels . Amber wasn 't arriving until later in the day , so I dropped my stuff off at the hotel and hit the streets of Vancouver . I started off in the Canada Place area . I asked someone to take my picture and totally thought of Kyria when I saw the result as we have talked about how strangers usually take crappy pictures . . . I mean , it 's not awful , but , well , it 's not great . But I am sure I 've taken crappy pictures of others , too . On my tourist map , I saw that you could rent bikes nearby - I thought that would be the perfect way to get some exercise and cover a decent amount of ground ! On my bike , with the Vancouver skyline in the background . The tourist who took this picture did a great job ! Stanley Park is a huge area with lots of biking and walking paths . I stumbled upon this pond and if I had more time , I would have stopped and sat on a bench and read . It was such a beautiful , quiet little spot . After 2 hours of biking , I made my way back to the Canada Place area and met up with Kelly and Eric for some drinks . After a couple of cocktails , I headed back to meet Amber , and we grabbed dinner and headed to bed early . On Saturday morning , Amber and I were up bright and early ! She knew I would be training for a marathon , so we had been planning to do a long run together for months . Our other friend , Anais , and her boyfriend had arrived the night before so they joined us ! I have also read Anais 's blog and exchanged many emails with her so it was awesome meeting her and her boyfriend in person ! She is incredibly sweet and is another person that I clicked with right away - AND she is French Canadian so she has a slight accent ! I am hoping to meet up with these girls to run a race in the future ! Amber planned an awesome run along the seawall . I think we were on the Burrard Bridge at this point of the run . I had so much fun running with Amber , Anais , and Anais 's boyfriend Olle ! After 11 . 25 miles of running , we had worked up quite an appetite - so we headed to a group brunch at this cute Greek place . It was like accent - palooza . For accents we had : Anais 's French Canadian accent , her boyfriend Olle 's Swedish accent , Eric 's Boston accent , and Amber 's mom 's Canadian accent ( which is different from Amber 's accent ) . And the wait staff had Greek accents . I just love accents so I was in heaven . Have you ever explored a city on bike ? I did a bike tour of Paris and it 's one of the first things I recommend to others who are visiting Paris . If you visit Vancouver , I highly recommend renting a bike and biking along the seawall . There is a great bike path and the views are amazing . Posted by When I last left off , I had just returned from the lake and was preparing to leave for Seattle . I arrived home the morning of the day I flew out for Seattle . It was a bit hectic , but I wanted to soak up as much time with family as I possibly could . I am really proud of the fact that I a ) was packed within an hour of arriving home , and b ) I fit everything for my week vacation in a carry on . Score ! Ever since my luggage got lost on a trip to New York , I have avoided checking bags if at all possible ! I arrived in Seattle on Thursday evening and got into downtown around 6 pm . I made the most of those short few hours that I had in Seattle ! Once again , I will let the photos do the talking ! ! It was the end of the day , so the market was closing down , but some of the stalls were still open so I meandered through on my way down to the water ! You can see how blue the skies were that day . There was not a cloud in sight and it was so sunny ! I love the weather in the Pacific NW . If I had more time , I would have checked out that giant ferris wheel ! I am afraid of heights , but I am sure the views from the top would have been amazing . I guess I will have to tackle that on my next trip ! I worked up an appetite walking around , so my next mission was finding a restaurant with a good gluten free menu . Luckily , I have found that the Pacific NW is VERY good about having gluten free options . The hotel had suggested a Thai place and when I saw that it had a good gluten free menu , I was sold ! Next up was my main course : mussels in a coconut curry sauce . The waiter recommended it to me and described the sauce as liquid crack . He was spot on ! ! The mussels were so fresh as they were caught locally . Besides the mussels , there were bits of pineapple , and it was garnished with bean sprouts and cilantro . Yum ! ! That is all I fit into those few short hours ! I headed back to the hotel early as I knew I had some big days ahead of me . I went to bed so excited as I knew I 'd be seeing Kelly and her husband Eric the next morning ! Greetings and Happy Wednesday , everyone ! Today I have a guest post from author , Joanne DeMaio . Her book , " Whole Latte Life " was released this past March and today she is sharing a short passage from the book as well as her reflections on that passage . through that journal , re - reading favorite passages . But as a writer , I also have favorite passages I 've written for the page . They might be lines that evoke a certain The first part of my vacation was spent at my parents ' lake home and it was awesome . It was just what I needed . It was the first vacation that I 've taken in a long , long time ( err , ever possibly ? ) that was totally and completely relaxing . I spent lots of time with family and filled my days with lots of reading , relaxation , and time in the water ! I ate really well , and enjoyed some of our unique traditional food and beverages like rhubarb slush ( so refreshing ) and pickle dip ( pickles + cream cheese + sour cream ) Yum ! I think I spent more time in the water those 4 days than I have in the last 4 years ! It was VERY hot and humid , so it was necessary to be in the water to stay cool ! I also fit in some ridiculously hot , humid runs . Jumping in the lake afterwards is the best post - run recovery , by the way ! The word that comes to mind when I look at this picture is serenity . That word sums up most of my lake vacation , too ! I love waking up to the calm , still waters . Taking in scenery like this is good for the soul ! On the 4th , we had a big family gathering . There was 36 of us at my parents ' ! Here is a picture of my cousin 's adorable little guy , Odin . The raft was very popular . Abby and Ryan ( pictured above ) scored some bonus points with the kiddos by throwing them off the raft ( at the kid 's request ) over and over and over ! So there you have it ! I left the lake on Thursday , July 5th feeling incredibly relaxed . . . and ready for the next leg of my vacation - which began that afternoon when I flew out to Seattle . 4 weeks down , 14 to go ! I am almost 1 / 3 of the way through training which is kind of crazy ! Today I want to talk about something really important : runner safety . This is going to be a " do as I say , not as I do " post as I made some stupid mistakes last Wednesday when I went for a run in Seattle . The first part was unpreventable , but I fell about 4 miles into my run ( tripped over a buckled sidewalk ) . In the grand scheme of things , it wasn 't too major , but I really fell hard , and skidded across the sidewalk for a bit . Sorry for anyone who is grossed out by blood . It actually looks worse now than it did right after it happened ! I also skinned my palms , got road rash on my upper thigh , and bruised my shoulder . I am not kidding when I say I fell HARD . It really hurt , but I was able to continue running . In hindsight I should have turned around at that point and made it an out - and - back run , but I thought I 'd be able to run around Lake Union . Instead , I took a wrong turn multiple wrong turns , and this is the path I ended running . I had intended to run 8 miles that day , and as you can see from the map , I was no where near my starting point nearly 9 miles into my run . I kept stopping and asking people how I could get back to the Queen Anne area and a couple of people were like - ' ON FOOT ' ? I thought they were exaggerating , but once I realized where I was on my ( crappy ) tourist map , I knew it was time to throw in the towel . I don 't run with my iPhone , so I had to go to a restaurant to have them call me a cab . I was dripping with blood from my fall ( gross I know ) and was pretty hot and tired at this point . The guy that helped me was concerned as I looked pretty rough at this point . Oh , and did I mention that I didn 't have any money on me ? Rookie mistake . Luckily the angelic cab driver that picked me up let me run up to my room to get cash . I think he took pity on me as I looked pretty awful with all the abrasions from my fall . 1 . Tell people where you are going ! No one knew when I was running , how far , or what area I 'd be running in . When you are a single person who lives ( or is traveling alone ) , it would be smart to tell someone when / where you are running and approximately how long you 'll be gone for . 2 . Carry a phone when running in an unfamiliar area . 4 . Wear something like a road id in case you are in distress and someone needs to contact a loved one ( I ALWAYS have my road id on my shoes ) . Wednesday was the perfect storm of runs but it all worked out in the end . Sometimes I am a bit too independent for my own good and I need experiences like this to remind myself that I am not invincible . None of us are . And yes , bad things can still happen to the most cautious runners , but it 's pretty dumb to make as many mistakes as I did ! Saturday : 16 miles at 10 min pace . I meant to run 14 but the people I was running with were doing 16 so I stuck with them . I was not at all sore the next day so I take that as a sign that my body was ready for the increase in distance . Greetings and happy Friday ! I am back from what was an AMAZING vacation and am slowly assimilating back to post - vacation life . Slowly . I feel so behind after having little - to - no internet / phone access ( which was actually kind of nice ) . Luckily I have a fairly quiet weekend ahead of me which I will be using to catch up ! Kyria gave me the One Lovely Blog Award over a month ago ! I am supposed to 1 ) Post the award logo and picture on your blog and link back to the person who nominated you . 2 ) Tell seven things about yourself . 3 ) Nominate up to 15 additional bloggers whom you think deserve the award . 4 ) Post a comment on the blog of each nominee to tell 1 . I hate asking for directions - which makes me especially thankful for my iPhone as it typically prevents me from having to ask directions . The map application is a life saver for me ! 2 . I used to be really chatty as a child , I remember talking to pretty much anyone who would listen . Now ? I avoid unnecessary conversations - like in places such as airplanes , groceries stores , cabs , etc . 3 . I have an incredibly strong gag reflex and am super sensitive to bad smells . As a result , I really can 't use a porta - potty or public restrooms in places like airplanes and trains without gagging . I usually have to put my nose in my shirt and talk myself out of throwing up . 4 . I do best in smaller group settings of maybe 6 - 8 people . When I am in a big group , I tend to get really quiet and do more observing than talking . For that reason , I have no desire to ever do a huge blogger meet up . 5 . I think that the semi - colon is probably the most misunderstood and misused of punctuation . It pains me to see it used wrongly ; it can be so effective when used correctly . 6 . I never thought I 'd say this , but I prefer reading e - books to physical books . Don 't get me wrong , I still love physical books as I would love to have a library some day , but e - books are so much easier - especially when traveling . I just love how light and portable my nook is ! 7 . The last day of my last 2 big vacations have sucked - I hope this is not a trend . Last year when I went to Paris , my flight got cancelled due to a snow storm , I got majorly delayed and re - routed through Atlanta , and my luggage got lost . On this trip , I fell and got lost during my run ( more on that in my Monday Marathon post ) . Then on my walk to the train station , I got followed by this creepy / crazy guy who took my picture about 8 times ( ick ) . And then on the flight home , a guy in my row ( who I think was intoxicated ) loudly puked ( and yes I had to fight my gag reflex ) . So yah , I am 0 - 2 on ending my last 2 big vacations on a high note ! Oh well , it makes it easier to return to reality after my vacation end like that ! Greetings from the stunningly beautiful Sunshine Coast of British Columbia ! I feel like I 've been a lot of places in the last week ! Battle Lake Minnesota to Minneapolis to Seattle to Vancouver to the Sunshine Coast . Phew ! I 've put on a lot of miles , but it has been an awesome trip so far ! I 'll share more with you when I return but suffice it to say this has been an amazing vacation ! ! And today is the main event - Amber 's Wedding ! ! ! ! ! ! ! I am sure I 'll have lots of pictures to share ! Today I thought I 'd talk about maintaining your exercise schedule while on vacation . I am not always great about making time for workout when I am on vacation . My vacations tend to be active anyways as I tend to do a lot of walking / exploring . In fact , I usually lose a little weight when I go to Europe because of all the walking I do ! But when you are training for something like a marathon , the natural activity that you do on a trip just doesn 't really cut it , so fitting in runs is a must . Last week was challenging because I was in an area that is not great for running ( unshaded roads by my parents cabin , curvy narrow roads without shoulders in the area ) . Add in the fact that it was ridiculously hot and humid , and it was a tough week of training for me . As a result , I made this week a sort of ' step back ' week , which means I decreased my mileage . I was due for a step back week anyways as every 3rd week is usually a step back when training . So it worked out just fine ! I did my Mon and Wed runs by myself in the hot , humid temps of Minnesota , and then enjoyed a beautiful , cool run in Vancouver with Amber and Anais on Saturday . I will say - it 's a lot easier to fit runs in when you are traveling with fellow runners ! I ran by myself earlier in the week and held myself accountable by writing it down ahead of time in my planner . For me , writing it down helps me stick to the plan ! Tuesday : We had a big storm come through on Monday so I raked up the branches in my parents yard and helped move a boat lift . I am considering this cross training ! I also swam quite a bit ! Saturday : 11 . 25 miles along the sea wall at a 10 : 40 pace . I took it extra easy on this run and focused on taking in the beautiful views ! ! We took lots of walk breaks and stopped to take a couple of pictures . I felt awesome at the end . Sunday : rest day Springsteen by Eric Church - A former co - worker ( Hi Pat ! ) suggested that I check out this song as he thought I 'd like it - and he was spot on . I love this song ! I 'm not usually a big country person , but as we shift into the season of summer , I tend to listen to more country . I think this song is great because so many of my memories are linked to music , so I agree with Eric Church that " sometimes a melody sounds like a memory . " 100 by Brandi Carlile - I was thrilled that Brandi Carlile released another album last month . This album has a bit more of a country / bluegrass feel to it , but I love it . This is one of my favorite songs . Brandi is so so talented - I really hope I can see her sometime this year ! Seriously , if you get a chance to see her - take advantage of it . Her and the twins in her band are AMAZING . Especially in a small venue when they can perform a capella . Books : This was my first study free month ! Woo hoo ! I studied about 4 hours on June 1st , but that was the extent as I took my exam on June 2nd . Words can not express how happy I am to not have any study hours to add up this month ! With the increase in free time , I read 6 books ! ! ! One Summer by David Baldacchi - This is the first book I have read by this author . It 's a fast , mindless read , so makes for a good vacation or beach read . It 's a bit predictable , and a little bit unrealistic , but that seems to be the trend for books in this genre . Saving Ruth by Zoe Fishman - You can read my reviewe here . The Vow by Kim Carpenter - I wanted to read this before seeing the movies as I prefer to read the book first . It 's a very fast read and can be read in one sitting most likely . I am sure you 've all seen the trailer for the movie , so understand the premise of the book . It does have a strong Christian message , which makes sense given what this couple went through , but if those sort of books make you uncomfortable / aren 't enjoyable , this is not the book for you . The Bungalow by Sarah Jio - I was excited to read this as I read and loved her first book , Violets of March . This book did not disappoint . It 's set on the island of Bora Bora during WWII where the main character is serving as a nurse . If you are looking for a good , fast read , check this out . She has another book coming out this fall and I 've already requested it from my library ! The House I Loved by Tatiana de Rosnay - This was an extremely disappointing book . Despite the fac that it was set in Paris , I did NOT like it at all and actually gave it 1 star on goodreads . I can 't believe this was written by the same author that wrote the captivating book , Sarah 's Key . The book is set in the 1860s during a time when Baron Haussman and Napoleon III were making huge changes to Paris to make it more accomodating to its growing population . So , for example , they were widening the street , which required some houses to be torn down . This book is about a widow whose house is being torn down . I understand one 's attachment to their home , but feel she took it to the extreme . And besides that , she came off as an incredibly selfish , self - absorbed person . Miles : Another strong month for me ! Marathon training kicked off , but my run club was on a 2 week hiatus as they take a break between the spring and summer sessions , but I still got a decent number of miles in . I ran 96 . 75 - I was so close to 100 ! ! Had I known that , I would have fit another run in . Oh well , I know I will break 100 next month now that I am training hard ! This is by far my favorite outfit of the month . I finally joined the ' bright colored pants ' trend , and got some magenta pants ! I got them on sale at Ann Taylor . I have worn bright pants to work in the past and got a lot of snide comments from male co - workers , but no one made fun of them this time - and one random quiet guy even told me he liked the color ! Posted by Hi , I 'm Lisa ! Thanks for stopping by my blog . I 'm a 30 - something living in Minneapolis , MN which is a city I adore . I have many loves but some that top the list are running , reading , traveling and all things French .

Happy Tuesday everyone ! I hope you all had a great weekend . Mine was absolutely wonderful . After run club on Saturday morning , I hopped in the car and headed up to my parents lake home . 3 of my 4 siblings were there and my niece and all of my nephews were there ! We had the best time . The weather was absolutely perfect , so we were outdoors all day , besides watching the men 's gymnastics on Saturday night . And to sleep of course ! We ate well , relaxed in the sun , celebrated my oldest nephew 's birthday , and just soaked up the time together . I made some progress on a new scarf I 'm knitting , and I read quite a bit of my book . So all in all , it was a wonderful weekend . I was so sad to see it end ! But luckily I will be back there next weekend ! By the time I got home Sunday night at 9 : 30 , I felt as tired as Charlie looks in this photo . All that time outdoors wears a person out ! And yes , I have a million freckles . . . and they are not small and cute - they are big blotches . Oh well , I can 't avoid , so I just embrace them ! ! Like I said , it was a wonderful weekend and I feel like I truly relaxed this weekend . Don 't get me wrong - I have had an enjoyable summer and have relaxed , but my pending CFA results were always in the back of my mind . . . It 's kind of like waiting to really , truly exhale for 7 + weeks . It 's nice to put that exam in my past and focus on enjoying my freedom ! My only regret is not getting a photo of Anna and my 5 nephews ! ! They aren 't all together very often so I am kicking myself for missing this opportunity to get a picture . Hopefully we 'll all be back together for Thanksgiving or Christmas . Do you have freckles ? If so , do you like them ? If not , do you wish you had freckles ? I have always just sort of accepted the fact that I have freckles so am sort of ambivalent about them . But when people see me in person I get a lot of - ' whoa , you have a lot of freckles ' comments ! I am a little bit envious of my little sister as she has this cute dusting of little freckles instead of blotches like I have ! Wow , I 'm 1 / 3 of the way through training ! I know that the next 2 / 3 will fly by as well ! October 21st still seems far off , but I know it will come fast . What 's Working : My long runs are going really , really well . Like better than any other marathon training cycle . I think this is due to the fact that I came into marathon training with a very nice base amount of miles . Actually , I looked back on my training and was surprised to find that I ran more miles in the months of April and May than I did in the month of July last year when I was training hard for my half marathon . So clearly all those miles I put in between March - May are helping me now . I 've increased my long runs a little faster than a Hal Higdon schedule would call for , but I 'm listening to my body and my coaches , and I know I 've made good decisions so far . What I 'm Struggling With : Pace work is REALLY hard for me . Like really hard . We did a run this week where we did 1 mile at marathon pace and then 4 x 1200m at half marathon pace . I hit my pace for the 1 mile and 2 of the 4 1200 , but the last 2 1200s were ugly . Part of it is the extreme humidity we 've had lately . It 's like running through stream . I got really frustrated on Wednesday as I was running those last 2 1200s at a slower pace than I ran my half marathon last fall . . . and I was working REALLY hard ( i . e . panting and wanting to die ) but when I was not all that winded when I ran my half last fall . Yes it was work , but not THAT much work . BUT - it was also about 40 degrees cooler when I ran my half last fall and there was no humidity . And I know I went through this frustrating phase last summer . It 's just part of the process . I had a great run on Thursday in cooler , less humid temps , though , which restored some of my confidence . Monday : 7 . 25 miles of hills at a 9 : 43 pace . This was a tough run as it was very humid that night . Tuesday : Biked 8 miles on the stationary bike before work . Wednesday : 7 mile run w / an overall pace of 9 : 42 . Pace work : 1 mile @ 8 : 55 , 4 x 1200m repeats @ 8 : 40 , 8 : 50 , 8 : 54 , 9 : 02 ( ugly , ugly run for me ) . Thursday : 4 miles @ 8 : 52 pace . This was an awesome run for me and showed me how the humidity had been impacting my runs as it was only 82 this day and not humid , and the run went great . How has the weather been where you are ? Has it impacted your training ? I am trying to remind myself that this heat and humidity will make me a strong runner come fall when the temps cool and the humidity eases . But right now , moving to Seattle sounds awfully tempting . . . . 5 posts later , I am finally getting around to recapping Amber 's wedding ! It 's hard to believe it was almost 3 weeks ago - time has flown since then . . . and just as we knew it would , her wedding day flew by . Luckily I got a decent number of photos ! You really should also go check out Kelly 's recap as she got some amazing shots and it 's fun reading her perspective of the day ! ! The day got started pretty early as Amber had to get her hair curled and set at 7 : 30 and I was next at 8 : 30 . The time spent getting ready went pretty fast . In a matter of hours we went from looking like this . . . I really , really liked the bridesmaid dress . She picked them out and ordered them from a wedding shop in St . Paul when she came to visit me last year ( where she also got her beautiful dress ! ) , and I had a decent amount of influence on the selection . Amber went with these dresses because of the color and the fact that we thought it would be flattering on everyone . I think we were right - this is one of the most flattering ( and comfortable ) bridesmaid dresses I 've worn , and I think everyone looked beautiful in the dress ! ! See for yourself - here I am with 3 of the other bridesmaids ! Before we knew it , it was time for the ceremony to start ! The ceremony was held on a grassy area that overlooked the ocean . It was a stunning setting and this wedding goes down as the most beautiful weddings I 've attended ! And I ended up giving a little impromptu speech when Amber 's brother called on the audience for other speeches . There were a decent number of bloggers at the wedding , so it was fun to speak and represent this area of her life . It totally looks like I am singing in this photo - I promise I 'm not . Thanks , Kelly , for capturing this moment on film ! After dinner , Anais , Amber , Kelly , and I got together for a quick photo . I really loved spending time with these girls . I just wish we lived closer so we could all be together more often ! We all just get along so well . We were definitely all meant to meet each other . : ) So there you have it . I really can 't even attempt to do this day justice . The wedding was so beautiful and there were so many great details from the lemonade stand ( which was a hit ) to the photo booth to the dessert table to the beautiful sunflower decor . It was a beautiful day and Amber was literally glowing . It 's a wonderful thing to watch a wonderful friend get married to someone that you know will make her incredibly happy - and vice versa . The day after the wedding , I was so sad to say good bye , I ended up crying . I am not one to cry when saying good bye ( it totally surprised Amber ! ) , but I was just so sad to see the wedding weekend come to an end . It was just wonderful spending so much time around Amber , Anais , and Kelly - I hope we are reunited again soon ! I feel so blessed to have been a part of Amber 's wedding day . The fact that I was a bridesmaid is a testament to the authenticity of friendships that can be formed through blogging . It 's an unconventional way to meet , but I am so very thankful that blogging brought us together ! I do not know what I would do without Amber in my life ! ! Have you made friends through blogging ? As you all know , I have met so many great friends through blogging ! I 'm thankful everyday for the people I have in my life as a result of starting this little blog . First things first - thank you for the congratulatory comments on my last post ! I feel so blessed to have so many people in my life that care about me ! I was completely spoiled on Tuesday - from steak sandwiches at lunch to macaroons in the afternoon to flowers from my parents to a flourless chocolate torte at happy hour to dinner with my aunt and uncle ! The day was full of celebration ! ! Now I fully intend to enjoy the next 5 months of my life ( I 'll start studying for level III on December 26th , but I am blocking that out of my mind for now ! ) . Back to the vacation recap ! When I last left off , we had just finished up brunch in Vancouver , and went our separate ways . We didn 't get much accomplished after brunch as traffic was so bad and it was taking forever to get anywhere , so we headed back to the hotel to meet up with the rest of the bridal party . Amber had made manicure and pedicure appointments for the bridal party . I rarely get manicures or pedicures , so this was quite a treat . Plus , she found a place that allowed us to bring in our own alcohol , so we brought a couple of bottles of wine to really aid in the relaxation process . I got to sit next to Amber : ) It was incredibly relaxing to sip on wine while someone dealt with my poor feet which are totally beat up thanks to my high arches + marathon training . Amber and I on his rooftop patio . He has the most amazing views of Vancouver . It was a beautiful night , so we ate dinner up on the patio . It was heavenly ! Dinner was AH - MAZING . The chef took into account my gluten intolerance so he made me my own special salad ( the others had a panzanella salad ) . That cheese on top of the salad was flown in from Italy ( I usually avoid dairy but couldn 't skip a specially flown in cheese ! ) ! He also served tenderloin , salmon , and a corn dish . The corn dish might have been my favorite part of the meal - it had truffle oil and a hint of jalapeno . It was to die for ! It was wonderful to watch the sun set over the city of Vancouver . I was sad to see my time in Vancouver end , but of course I was excited to head to the Sunshine Coast for Amber 's wedding ! ! We were up bright and early on Sunday morning . I went to mass at a beautiful cathedral in downtown Vancouver , and then I met up with Amber and Kelly for coffee before we left Vancouver for the Sunshine Coast ! We had a short drive to the ferry terminal , and then we were off . We had the rehearsal and welcome dinner that evening , but I was not so great about taking photos so have none to share . The rehearsal went really , really smoothly , and the dinner was delicious . Amber and I shared a room that night so I had the honor of spending the last night with her as a single lady ! She was cool , calm , and so excited for the next day - as was I ! Oh how I love wedding weekends ! Have you ever been on a ferry before ? Besides taking ferries to Victoria and the Sunshine Coast , I also took a ferry between the north and south islands of New Zealand - but that was a HORRIBLE experience . Unbeknownst to us , that stretch of water is known for being choppy . So many people got sick on that ferry . I was kind of afraid of them since that experience , but it 's a very calm , easy ride on the waters around the BC area ( at least in my experience ) . I have wonderful news to share - I found out this morning that I passed my level II CFA exam ! ! 42 % of those who took it passed - so I feel really good about being in that group ! : ) The wait for the results was excruciating and , in my opinion , cruel . Others got their results emails over an hour before mine . I get that they are sending out 85 , 000 emails , but seriously . Take part of the $ 600 exam fee and buy a better server . But all that matters is that I passed ! We are celebrating with steak sandwiches ( sans the bread for me ) and I am relishing the feeling of sweet relief . You all know how hard I worked for this ; it 's such a relief to know that hard work payed off ! Thanks to all of you for the support , encouragement , and ' you can do it ' comments . I 'm only 5 weeks in , but training is going really well so far . I 'm feeling healthy and my long runs are going well - which is such a confidence booster . This isn 't my first marathon , so I know I have tough runs ahead of me , as they are an inevitable part of training , but I am enjoying these strong runs while they last . Besides PR ' ing , another goal of mine for this marathon training session is to stay healthy . Obviously , that is a goal we all want to achieve , but I am trying some new things to help me accomplish this goal . First , I am really focusing on cross training and strength training . The other thing I am doing is seeing a chiro for ART ( active release technique ) therapy . Amber recommended it to me as she did ART to help with some of the tightness in her calves . In my case , I struggle with knee pain caused by patella femoral , and after doing some research , I found that ART can help . So what is ART ? Well , to dumb it down , it 's a massage technique that treats problems with muscles , tendons , ligaments , fascia , and nerves . I had my initial assessment about a month ago and was happy that this chiro came up with the same conclusion as the PT I saw 2 years ago for my knee pain : weak hips and a weak right glute . I won 't bore you with the details of it , but long story short , the chiro finds areas of tightness and massages them . It 's a pretty intense type of massage - sort of akin to the pain of foam rolling , but times 10 , I 'd say . It 's a ' hurt so good ' type of feeling , though , and I noticed a difference right away . Luckily it is covered by insurance and since I met my out of pocket maximum already , I don 't even have to pay a co - pay . So that is nice . I saw him a couple of times before my trip and now I will go to him on an as needed basis when I start to feel some tightening / knee pain . The nice thing is that you notice a difference immediately . I am so glad I looked into this type of therapy ! Monday : Hills in the heat , 6 . 35 miles @ 10 : 43 pace . This run was VERY difficult as it was 97 and very humid . I was so tired at the end , I could barely talk . Our coaches kept a close eye on us and got us popsicle for after the run , which helps lower your core temperate . This is probably the hardest / worst run of this training cycle . Saturday : 15 miles @ 9 : 47 pace . It down poured for much of this run - and there was some thunder and lightening , so it was a bit nerve wracking , but I had a great run despite the elements . The rain actually kept me cool so I did not feel fatigued at the end ! Sunday : 1 hour and 45 minutes of kayaking . It was my first time , and I LOVED it . A friend from run club took me and we had a blast and saw 4 lakes ( Cedar , Isles , Calhoun , and Brownie ) ! ! It was a great arm workout and a peaceful way to end a great weekend . When I last left off , I was in Seattle . I woke up on Friday morning without the aid of an alarm as I was SO excited to start the next leg of the trip ( ok , and I was still on CST ) . This post is going to be a tad bit long , but bear with me ! I am so glad we did this leg of the trip together . Luckily we got seated together on the train ride . We spent the 4 + hours talking pretty much non - stop . There were absolutely no awkward moments . I bet the guy who sat with us never would have guessed that we hadn 't met in person before that day . Before we knew it , we had arrived in Vancouver . We quickly made it through customs ( after getting grilled ! ) , and went to our respective hotels . Amber wasn 't arriving until later in the day , so I dropped my stuff off at the hotel and hit the streets of Vancouver . I started off in the Canada Place area . I asked someone to take my picture and totally thought of Kyria when I saw the result as we have talked about how strangers usually take crappy pictures . . . I mean , it 's not awful , but , well , it 's not great . But I am sure I 've taken crappy pictures of others , too . On my tourist map , I saw that you could rent bikes nearby - I thought that would be the perfect way to get some exercise and cover a decent amount of ground ! On my bike , with the Vancouver skyline in the background . The tourist who took this picture did a great job ! Stanley Park is a huge area with lots of biking and walking paths . I stumbled upon this pond and if I had more time , I would have stopped and sat on a bench and read . It was such a beautiful , quiet little spot . After 2 hours of biking , I made my way back to the Canada Place area and met up with Kelly and Eric for some drinks . After a couple of cocktails , I headed back to meet Amber , and we grabbed dinner and headed to bed early . On Saturday morning , Amber and I were up bright and early ! She knew I would be training for a marathon , so we had been planning to do a long run together for months . Our other friend , Anais , and her boyfriend had arrived the night before so they joined us ! I have also read Anais 's blog and exchanged many emails with her so it was awesome meeting her and her boyfriend in person ! She is incredibly sweet and is another person that I clicked with right away - AND she is French Canadian so she has a slight accent ! I am hoping to meet up with these girls to run a race in the future ! Amber planned an awesome run along the seawall . I think we were on the Burrard Bridge at this point of the run . I had so much fun running with Amber , Anais , and Anais 's boyfriend Olle ! After 11 . 25 miles of running , we had worked up quite an appetite - so we headed to a group brunch at this cute Greek place . It was like accent - palooza . For accents we had : Anais 's French Canadian accent , her boyfriend Olle 's Swedish accent , Eric 's Boston accent , and Amber 's mom 's Canadian accent ( which is different from Amber 's accent ) . And the wait staff had Greek accents . I just love accents so I was in heaven . Have you ever explored a city on bike ? I did a bike tour of Paris and it 's one of the first things I recommend to others who are visiting Paris . If you visit Vancouver , I highly recommend renting a bike and biking along the seawall . There is a great bike path and the views are amazing . Posted by When I last left off , I had just returned from the lake and was preparing to leave for Seattle . I arrived home the morning of the day I flew out for Seattle . It was a bit hectic , but I wanted to soak up as much time with family as I possibly could . I am really proud of the fact that I a ) was packed within an hour of arriving home , and b ) I fit everything for my week vacation in a carry on . Score ! Ever since my luggage got lost on a trip to New York , I have avoided checking bags if at all possible ! I arrived in Seattle on Thursday evening and got into downtown around 6 pm . I made the most of those short few hours that I had in Seattle ! Once again , I will let the photos do the talking ! ! It was the end of the day , so the market was closing down , but some of the stalls were still open so I meandered through on my way down to the water ! You can see how blue the skies were that day . There was not a cloud in sight and it was so sunny ! I love the weather in the Pacific NW . If I had more time , I would have checked out that giant ferris wheel ! I am afraid of heights , but I am sure the views from the top would have been amazing . I guess I will have to tackle that on my next trip ! I worked up an appetite walking around , so my next mission was finding a restaurant with a good gluten free menu . Luckily , I have found that the Pacific NW is VERY good about having gluten free options . The hotel had suggested a Thai place and when I saw that it had a good gluten free menu , I was sold ! Next up was my main course : mussels in a coconut curry sauce . The waiter recommended it to me and described the sauce as liquid crack . He was spot on ! ! The mussels were so fresh as they were caught locally . Besides the mussels , there were bits of pineapple , and it was garnished with bean sprouts and cilantro . Yum ! ! That is all I fit into those few short hours ! I headed back to the hotel early as I knew I had some big days ahead of me . I went to bed so excited as I knew I 'd be seeing Kelly and her husband Eric the next morning ! Greetings and Happy Wednesday , everyone ! Today I have a guest post from author , Joanne DeMaio . Her book , " Whole Latte Life " was released this past March and today she is sharing a short passage from the book as well as her reflections on that passage . through that journal , re - reading favorite passages . But as a writer , I also have favorite passages I 've written for the page . They might be lines that evoke a certain The first part of my vacation was spent at my parents ' lake home and it was awesome . It was just what I needed . It was the first vacation that I 've taken in a long , long time ( err , ever possibly ? ) that was totally and completely relaxing . I spent lots of time with family and filled my days with lots of reading , relaxation , and time in the water ! I ate really well , and enjoyed some of our unique traditional food and beverages like rhubarb slush ( so refreshing ) and pickle dip ( pickles + cream cheese + sour cream ) Yum ! I think I spent more time in the water those 4 days than I have in the last 4 years ! It was VERY hot and humid , so it was necessary to be in the water to stay cool ! I also fit in some ridiculously hot , humid runs . Jumping in the lake afterwards is the best post - run recovery , by the way ! The word that comes to mind when I look at this picture is serenity . That word sums up most of my lake vacation , too ! I love waking up to the calm , still waters . Taking in scenery like this is good for the soul ! On the 4th , we had a big family gathering . There was 36 of us at my parents ' ! Here is a picture of my cousin 's adorable little guy , Odin . The raft was very popular . Abby and Ryan ( pictured above ) scored some bonus points with the kiddos by throwing them off the raft ( at the kid 's request ) over and over and over ! So there you have it ! I left the lake on Thursday , July 5th feeling incredibly relaxed . . . and ready for the next leg of my vacation - which began that afternoon when I flew out to Seattle . 4 weeks down , 14 to go ! I am almost 1 / 3 of the way through training which is kind of crazy ! Today I want to talk about something really important : runner safety . This is going to be a " do as I say , not as I do " post as I made some stupid mistakes last Wednesday when I went for a run in Seattle . The first part was unpreventable , but I fell about 4 miles into my run ( tripped over a buckled sidewalk ) . In the grand scheme of things , it wasn 't too major , but I really fell hard , and skidded across the sidewalk for a bit . Sorry for anyone who is grossed out by blood . It actually looks worse now than it did right after it happened ! I also skinned my palms , got road rash on my upper thigh , and bruised my shoulder . I am not kidding when I say I fell HARD . It really hurt , but I was able to continue running . In hindsight I should have turned around at that point and made it an out - and - back run , but I thought I 'd be able to run around Lake Union . Instead , I took a wrong turn multiple wrong turns , and this is the path I ended running . I had intended to run 8 miles that day , and as you can see from the map , I was no where near my starting point nearly 9 miles into my run . I kept stopping and asking people how I could get back to the Queen Anne area and a couple of people were like - ' ON FOOT ' ? I thought they were exaggerating , but once I realized where I was on my ( crappy ) tourist map , I knew it was time to throw in the towel . I don 't run with my iPhone , so I had to go to a restaurant to have them call me a cab . I was dripping with blood from my fall ( gross I know ) and was pretty hot and tired at this point . The guy that helped me was concerned as I looked pretty rough at this point . Oh , and did I mention that I didn 't have any money on me ? Rookie mistake . Luckily the angelic cab driver that picked me up let me run up to my room to get cash . I think he took pity on me as I looked pretty awful with all the abrasions from my fall . 1 . Tell people where you are going ! No one knew when I was running , how far , or what area I 'd be running in . When you are a single person who lives ( or is traveling alone ) , it would be smart to tell someone when / where you are running and approximately how long you 'll be gone for . 2 . Carry a phone when running in an unfamiliar area . 4 . Wear something like a road id in case you are in distress and someone needs to contact a loved one ( I ALWAYS have my road id on my shoes ) . Wednesday was the perfect storm of runs but it all worked out in the end . Sometimes I am a bit too independent for my own good and I need experiences like this to remind myself that I am not invincible . None of us are . And yes , bad things can still happen to the most cautious runners , but it 's pretty dumb to make as many mistakes as I did ! Saturday : 16 miles at 10 min pace . I meant to run 14 but the people I was running with were doing 16 so I stuck with them . I was not at all sore the next day so I take that as a sign that my body was ready for the increase in distance . Greetings and happy Friday ! I am back from what was an AMAZING vacation and am slowly assimilating back to post - vacation life . Slowly . I feel so behind after having little - to - no internet / phone access ( which was actually kind of nice ) . Luckily I have a fairly quiet weekend ahead of me which I will be using to catch up ! Kyria gave me the One Lovely Blog Award over a month ago ! I am supposed to 1 ) Post the award logo and picture on your blog and link back to the person who nominated you . 2 ) Tell seven things about yourself . 3 ) Nominate up to 15 additional bloggers whom you think deserve the award . 4 ) Post a comment on the blog of each nominee to tell 1 . I hate asking for directions - which makes me especially thankful for my iPhone as it typically prevents me from having to ask directions . The map application is a life saver for me ! 2 . I used to be really chatty as a child , I remember talking to pretty much anyone who would listen . Now ? I avoid unnecessary conversations - like in places such as airplanes , groceries stores , cabs , etc . 3 . I have an incredibly strong gag reflex and am super sensitive to bad smells . As a result , I really can 't use a porta - potty or public restrooms in places like airplanes and trains without gagging . I usually have to put my nose in my shirt and talk myself out of throwing up . 4 . I do best in smaller group settings of maybe 6 - 8 people . When I am in a big group , I tend to get really quiet and do more observing than talking . For that reason , I have no desire to ever do a huge blogger meet up . 5 . I think that the semi - colon is probably the most misunderstood and misused of punctuation . It pains me to see it used wrongly ; it can be so effective when used correctly . 6 . I never thought I 'd say this , but I prefer reading e - books to physical books . Don 't get me wrong , I still love physical books as I would love to have a library some day , but e - books are so much easier - especially when traveling . I just love how light and portable my nook is ! 7 . The last day of my last 2 big vacations have sucked - I hope this is not a trend . Last year when I went to Paris , my flight got cancelled due to a snow storm , I got majorly delayed and re - routed through Atlanta , and my luggage got lost . On this trip , I fell and got lost during my run ( more on that in my Monday Marathon post ) . Then on my walk to the train station , I got followed by this creepy / crazy guy who took my picture about 8 times ( ick ) . And then on the flight home , a guy in my row ( who I think was intoxicated ) loudly puked ( and yes I had to fight my gag reflex ) . So yah , I am 0 - 2 on ending my last 2 big vacations on a high note ! Oh well , it makes it easier to return to reality after my vacation end like that ! Greetings from the stunningly beautiful Sunshine Coast of British Columbia ! I feel like I 've been a lot of places in the last week ! Battle Lake Minnesota to Minneapolis to Seattle to Vancouver to the Sunshine Coast . Phew ! I 've put on a lot of miles , but it has been an awesome trip so far ! I 'll share more with you when I return but suffice it to say this has been an amazing vacation ! ! And today is the main event - Amber 's Wedding ! ! ! ! ! ! ! I am sure I 'll have lots of pictures to share ! Today I thought I 'd talk about maintaining your exercise schedule while on vacation . I am not always great about making time for workout when I am on vacation . My vacations tend to be active anyways as I tend to do a lot of walking / exploring . In fact , I usually lose a little weight when I go to Europe because of all the walking I do ! But when you are training for something like a marathon , the natural activity that you do on a trip just doesn 't really cut it , so fitting in runs is a must . Last week was challenging because I was in an area that is not great for running ( unshaded roads by my parents cabin , curvy narrow roads without shoulders in the area ) . Add in the fact that it was ridiculously hot and humid , and it was a tough week of training for me . As a result , I made this week a sort of ' step back ' week , which means I decreased my mileage . I was due for a step back week anyways as every 3rd week is usually a step back when training . So it worked out just fine ! I did my Mon and Wed runs by myself in the hot , humid temps of Minnesota , and then enjoyed a beautiful , cool run in Vancouver with Amber and Anais on Saturday . I will say - it 's a lot easier to fit runs in when you are traveling with fellow runners ! I ran by myself earlier in the week and held myself accountable by writing it down ahead of time in my planner . For me , writing it down helps me stick to the plan ! Tuesday : We had a big storm come through on Monday so I raked up the branches in my parents yard and helped move a boat lift . I am considering this cross training ! I also swam quite a bit ! Saturday : 11 . 25 miles along the sea wall at a 10 : 40 pace . I took it extra easy on this run and focused on taking in the beautiful views ! ! We took lots of walk breaks and stopped to take a couple of pictures . I felt awesome at the end . Sunday : rest day Springsteen by Eric Church - A former co - worker ( Hi Pat ! ) suggested that I check out this song as he thought I 'd like it - and he was spot on . I love this song ! I 'm not usually a big country person , but as we shift into the season of summer , I tend to listen to more country . I think this song is great because so many of my memories are linked to music , so I agree with Eric Church that " sometimes a melody sounds like a memory . " 100 by Brandi Carlile - I was thrilled that Brandi Carlile released another album last month . This album has a bit more of a country / bluegrass feel to it , but I love it . This is one of my favorite songs . Brandi is so so talented - I really hope I can see her sometime this year ! Seriously , if you get a chance to see her - take advantage of it . Her and the twins in her band are AMAZING . Especially in a small venue when they can perform a capella . Books : This was my first study free month ! Woo hoo ! I studied about 4 hours on June 1st , but that was the extent as I took my exam on June 2nd . Words can not express how happy I am to not have any study hours to add up this month ! With the increase in free time , I read 6 books ! ! ! One Summer by David Baldacchi - This is the first book I have read by this author . It 's a fast , mindless read , so makes for a good vacation or beach read . It 's a bit predictable , and a little bit unrealistic , but that seems to be the trend for books in this genre . Saving Ruth by Zoe Fishman - You can read my reviewe here . The Vow by Kim Carpenter - I wanted to read this before seeing the movies as I prefer to read the book first . It 's a very fast read and can be read in one sitting most likely . I am sure you 've all seen the trailer for the movie , so understand the premise of the book . It does have a strong Christian message , which makes sense given what this couple went through , but if those sort of books make you uncomfortable / aren 't enjoyable , this is not the book for you . The Bungalow by Sarah Jio - I was excited to read this as I read and loved her first book , Violets of March . This book did not disappoint . It 's set on the island of Bora Bora during WWII where the main character is serving as a nurse . If you are looking for a good , fast read , check this out . She has another book coming out this fall and I 've already requested it from my library ! The House I Loved by Tatiana de Rosnay - This was an extremely disappointing book . Despite the fac that it was set in Paris , I did NOT like it at all and actually gave it 1 star on goodreads . I can 't believe this was written by the same author that wrote the captivating book , Sarah 's Key . The book is set in the 1860s during a time when Baron Haussman and Napoleon III were making huge changes to Paris to make it more accomodating to its growing population . So , for example , they were widening the street , which required some houses to be torn down . This book is about a widow whose house is being torn down . I understand one 's attachment to their home , but feel she took it to the extreme . And besides that , she came off as an incredibly selfish , self - absorbed person . Miles : Another strong month for me ! Marathon training kicked off , but my run club was on a 2 week hiatus as they take a break between the spring and summer sessions , but I still got a decent number of miles in . I ran 96 . 75 - I was so close to 100 ! ! Had I known that , I would have fit another run in . Oh well , I know I will break 100 next month now that I am training hard ! This is by far my favorite outfit of the month . I finally joined the ' bright colored pants ' trend , and got some magenta pants ! I got them on sale at Ann Taylor . I have worn bright pants to work in the past and got a lot of snide comments from male co - workers , but no one made fun of them this time - and one random quiet guy even told me he liked the color ! Posted by Hi , I 'm Lisa ! Thanks for stopping by my blog . I 'm a 30 - something living in Minneapolis , MN which is a city I adore . I have many loves but some that top the list are running , reading , traveling and all things French .

All is quiet and strange here in South Brooklyn after the storm . I woke today to find our street untouched but for a few broken tree limbs . Then I walked our neighborhood to find enormous trees overturned , Red Hook boarded and broken , trapped under water , and the toxic Gowanus canal overflowing . Today I feel very fortunate . We live on the waterfront , tucked in between the New York harbor and that canal . It is a wonder that the ground slopes just right , to leave us elevated enough to reside in " Zone B " , to escape what so much of this city has not . Our offices are uncharacteristically silent and unreachable . Water has filled the subway tunnels . So the underground veins of New York City , it 's lifeline , are empty . There is no coming or going . There is no timeframe for repair because there is no precedent . My window looks out towards the harbor . In the distance I can see downtown Manhattan . Tonight , it is completely dark . I am thinking of those who have lost so much . So maybe , these weeks , I 've been dreaming . Desperate to avoid news coverage , all the election shouting and slinging and an unimaginable tragedy on the Upper West Side . And it 's possible I 've been walking through my days with a singular focus , a steady determination to finish each task and move on to the next one without looking around me at all . And maybe it 's been a bit like holding my ears , shaking my head , and la - la - la - ing , as I 've needed to retreat , retreat , and ignore . Now a Sandy storm is raging , wake up , Melissa , wake up . But before I do . Look . This statue in the Boston Commons . And the famous Little Miss M fluttering through her living room . And , in a way , me . Lighter and free - er and less worried and more like someone I used to be . This site , for me , IS New York City . Photographer Brandon Stanton sees my city exactly as I see it . Heart - swelling . Pulsing . Complex . Alive . There are a million places to go in New York and , yet , when people visit , I never know where to take them . Maybe that 's because the heart of New York is , above all else , its people . Brandon figured that out . I am IN LOVE with this video . Such a romantic , perfect tribute to the city I love . I hope you 'll click on it ( it won 't let me share it here . ) The lovely and talented Laurel Garver is taking over the blog today ! She 's going to talk about one of my favorite topics , setting , and how she worked with it in her novel Never Gone . Setting is a key element of my novel , Never Gone , about a teen who is grieving the death of her British father , and must somehow build a life with her workaholic American mother . Danielle 's trip from the US to England becomes a catalyst for her to get to the bottom of family secrets . Setting also undergirds the story flow , as one of my reviewers on Amazon picked up : " From the sky - scrapers of New York , to the hills of England , Garver brings you on a lyrical journey that rolls with highs and lows , full of valleys of tenderness . " Thanks , Melissa , for the opportunity to talk about how I chose some of my settings and used a mix of research and imagination to bring them to the page . My story decisions usually develop out of the characters , rather than the other way around . As I got to know my protagonist Dani 's parents , Graham and Grace , it became clear that no other place would work for them . Grace is a driven advertising executive who would never settle for working outside Madison Avenue . Making a living as a professional photographer - which is Graham 's career - requires proximity to the most potential purchasers of this kind of service , like ad agencies . Honestly , though , New York City is only two hours away , and we have friends there who 've been a great help answering my questions about family life in the city . I did five trips ( combined with family fun ) to chose Dani 's neighborhoods and gather sensory details . How much are your New York locations real , and how much a fabrication ? I think it 's important to make your fabrications realistic by drawing details from real places . A majority Never Gone takes place in a rural English village , Ashmede . How did you choose the location ? How real are your British settings ? I wanted the time that Dani spent in her late father 's hometown to challenge her strong identification with him . The setting had to be a big contrast from her very American , very urban home , so her dad is not only foreign , but rural . I 'd originally planned to set the story in the Cotswolds in the southwest near Wales , where I lived for a semester in college . But while I was researching and drafting , friends invited us to visit them in Durham , which is up north . When I discovered that folks from northern Britain face deep prejudice in the south , it made Graham 's back story even more compelling . He 'd have a hard time breaking into photography in London because of his accent , and would more easily find work in the US . Americans don 't understand or really even hear regional differences among British dialects . So that visit turned into a major research trip . I invented Ashmede ( a popular name for streets , but no village bears it ) from places I visited then , and a North Yorkshire village I stayed in during spring break as a student . Durham Cathedral , a real location I fell in love with on my research trip , is the backdrop for several chapters . I also set a chapter at Kings Cross Station , where all the northbound trains leave London . It worked nicely on a couple of levels , including Dani 's love of Harry Potter . What advice would you give other writers about setting ? Second , there is no substitute for real , on - the - ground research . Even if you choose to invent a town like I did , you need authentic details from that geographic area . What is the weather like ? What unique topographical features ( mountains , forests , deserts , etc . ) affect daily life ? What is local cuisine and how does it taste ? How does the area typically smell and sound ? Is the culture informal and inviting or uptight and suspicious ? What do the locals do for fun ? What slang expressions are typical ? You can 't get any of that information from Google street view . I saw this little girl the other day and when I took this photograph it felt like stealing . I don 't know . Look at her . She 's stars and hearts and purple and sparkle . All the things you can not possibly take . It reminded me of something I wrote a while ago . A manuscript that lost its way . The moment you fall in love with something you can not keep . I wake up in the window , tucked in the corner of the sill , like a house plant you forget to water . The glass has become a pillow , the only place I can actually rest my head and sleep . My cat curls up on the old blue shed across the way , in someone else 's yard , under a canopy of bare trees and electrical wires . I call him mine but , of course , he isn 't . He belongs to a stranger . I haven 't known him until now , until I stopped attending school , stopped spending afternoons in practice rooms and evenings with Graca as I played and she paced . But now I see that he is there each day unless it rains . He is fat , which means he 's well - fed by this stranger , and he bunches himself up on the same spot of sun for hours . He has claimed it and I have claimed him . Something inside me stirs enough to feel as though I 've fallen in love . I place my hand against the glass , try to feel the winter cold in my palm . I wonder if he is as numb to the cold as my hand is , how he endures such long hours in frigid temperatures , if the swelling sun is enough to keep him warm . Posted by I enjoy reading and owning physical cookbooks . I can spend hours in a bookstore running my fingers across glossy photographs of food , thumbing through pages of measurements and ingredients . I also enjoy the small stories that come with them . Sometimes I crave the story more than the food . Your friends have come to see you - - not to critique your cooking skills . I 'm asked all the time , " How many hors d ' oeuvres do I need to make before dinner ? " " None , " is my answer . I think of this often . Not only when it comes to cooking but when it comes to life . Sometimes I ask too much of myself . I invent obligations . In sorting through what matters , sometimes I fail to see what doesn 't . I wanted to share some photos from my birthday . At the very last minute , we escaped for a few hours to the legendary town of Sleepy Hollow because I wanted to see the foliage . Then Tyler surprised me with dinner and jazz at Smoke . I walked a blue - sky day with someone I love . I closed my eyes and was moved by the sound of music . I continue to feel lucky . Posted by Today I am joining quite the celebration in this land o ' blogs . The famous Lenny Lee turns thirteen ! Lenny is a writer , reader , animal - lover , and hugger supreme . He writes some of the most thoughtful and informative blog posts . He wrote an amazing picture book with Sharon Mayhew and I felt privileged to be able to read it . He sends me the most beautiful notes in the mail . And though I 've never met him , I always imagine him smiling , and every note , every word and story from Lenny , makes me smile too . Along with all the love Lenny shares with me , I am beyond lucky because he and I also share a birthday . So it makes this day even more special for me . So , happy , happy , birthday to my birthday twin . Despite the , uh , age difference , we can still be twins right ? ( Humor me , Lenny , humor me . ) In honor of the fact that we also share a love of swimming any time , any place , anywhere , ( as Lenny says , he is part fish ) I give you this Lenny Lee Sunshine Fish , swimming all over the world ! Happy Birthday Lenny ! Even though that used - to - be is somewhat later than the used - to - be of the mix tape , I smiled . I closed my eyes . It became easier to imagine lying on the rug , listening to the radio , waiting for the song , that song , the only song . I 'd hit the tape deck , slap record and it would be mine . This morning I feel weary . I did not watch the debate last night ( these spectacles don 't interest me ) but it seems the noise found me anyway . And I feel the way I do when there are sirens , when the subway screeches into the station . I feel like a child , who has to stop wherever she is and hold her hands against her ears . Growing up , I lived next door to a woman who has been the subject of many exasperating , now tucked - away stories and essays . She did not leave her home and , as far as we could tell , she did not have any visitors . It has never been clear to us how she survived because a car sat dead in her driveway . Through rumor , I heard she had once been a scientist . The mystery surrounding her became even more strange and fascinating when , one summer , we discovered that she had kept turtles marked with red dots on their shells because dozens escaped , or were let loose , from her yard . Through the years , it seemed the two of us were in a mysterious argument without words . While other kids in my group walked away with sweets , she silently refused to give me candy on Halloween . In retaliation , I took pickles from a jar and , one by one , threw them at her window while she stared back at me from behind the screen . One morning I stood on a lawn chair to peer into her jungle of a backyard and she marched to the fence , sprayed me in the face with a hose . The shock of it sent me falling to the patio and I ran away with bloody knees . When she died , her house was emptied . And by this , I mean , that multiple dumpsters the size of a U - haul were filled with nothing but books . In all the stories I have tried to write about her , I have never been able to express the sheer magnitude of books that were relieved , gasping , from her home . Just close your eyes . Picture thousands , toppling over one another in massive heaps . I think of her today because of this shut - my - eyes , hold - my - ears reaction . It 's hard for me to imagine shutting people out of my life the way she did . But in the midst of all this noise , I can imagine wanting to be with stories and words and books , to sit huddled among them , instead of witnessing the tremble of the real world . It struck me . Our ability to choose the way we see a situation , to decide how we walk through a day . A choice to simply react to our worlds or be proactive . I 'm trying to make this the blue I walk under . I want to feel this sun . I want to experience the way the land opened up to give me this morning in Spain . Posted by When I signed up through the Children 's Media Association ( CMA ) I did not expect to be thrown into a situation where I had to stand alone before a group of twenty strangers , in front of a television monitor , with a mop of rags on my arm . But there was no time to think . I had to come up with a voice ( I took a cue from many of the cooking shows I watch : low and slow ) and a character ( I decided , in the 30 seconds I had , that his name was Mo ) and just . . . go . Many of you know I write at a snail 's pace . I wait for words that never come . I sigh . I stare at blank pages . I dream . This is not to say I don 't finish things . I do . But , while everything else in my working life is now , NOW , or yesterday , my writing life is much , much slower . All this to say , when it comes to imagining words and character , I am not accustomed to improvisation , to winging it . This was a stretch for me . I stumbled and sweat and worried . And when my minutes of ' fame ' were over , I couldn 't even tell you what I said . But there 's something about not thinking or over - analyzing . I had to remain unedited and both undone and done at the very same time . It was the most fun I 've had in a long time . I don 't think I stopped smiling for the two hours I was there . If ever in your life you are faced with the question : Should I take this puppetry class ? Say yes . I know you 're thinking you will never be faced with this question . But you never know . I was . And I 'm thrilled I answered correctly . I 've written of this before , how the word writer feels strange on the tongue . I am , I have discovered , after all these years , a children 's writer , because I write for children every day . My written work is not always visible , it is more often audible , through toys and games , inside ebooks and mobile apps . For years , I have tacked on the role of producer to my title . I am a writer and producer , I will say , at dinner parties and networking events . It is what you see in the sidebar of this blog and in the lines of my business card . Because producer is more marketable . It is easier explained . At a doctor 's visit a few weeks ago ( just an annual checkup ) , my new doctor asked me what I did for a living . Perhaps it was because I sat naked under a gown that wouldn 't stay closed , perhaps it was because she held tight to a needle and would soon draw blood , but I did not , could not , hide . I 'm a writer , I said . Not a producer in sight . She asked me what I write and I rattled off the list of preschool brands , the toys and games , and all the etceteras . Again , perhaps it was because she 'd just weighed me naked , then plunked me down on that papery mat , but I went on to tell her something I rarely tell anyone . I told her I really write books . I 'm not sure what made me say this . What I really do . And what it even means to really do anything at all . I knew what questions would come . I knew I would have to explain myself out of that hole . I would have to share awkwardly rehearsed plot synopses . I would have to answer the genre questions and the labels , explain my way through the success of Twilight and Fifty Shades of Grey . Then I would have to say the words I hate saying , that , no , I am not published , and , no , you can not read my work anywhere . And my head spun thinking , Why , why , did I dig this deep ? Why did I place myself here ? Lately I feel there 's a lot of noise out there . I 'm browsing through my twitter feed and it seems that everyone is up in arms about , well , everything . I don 't want to perpetuate the ugly sound by lamenting my frustration here but I just wondered . . . do you hear it too ? I 'm trying to maintain an almost meditative focus these days - - on the words I 'm writing and the words I 'm reading . I 'm reimagining my days . On Sunday night , I sat on the subway . Having already finished a book , I was involved in a children 's math game on my phone ( I was multiplying . For real . ) A young man stepped on the train to ask for money and food for his daughters , his grandmother , himself . Unlike the many panhandlers I see and hear each day , he was well - spoken and well - dressed , his speech rehearsed but sincere . A middle - aged woman , who sat across from me , said to him , When you 're finished collecting money , come speak to me . I 'll admit . I was curious . I strained to listen while I multiplied but their conversation was intimate , thoughtful , the depth and concentration of it , almost mystical . When I got off , they got off , and as I waited to transfer to my next train , they stood beneath the stairs in the heat of this conversation . I wasn 't meant to hear their words but I overheard snippets , the work of her rehabilitation , the daughters he loved , an education somehow lost and then found , for both of them . And in the end , an exchange of information between them . In all of my years living in New York , of the thousands of people ( it has to be thousands , after all these years ) I see begging on the train and in the streets , I have never in my life witnessed anyone reach out in this way . To tell a story . To listen to one . I see something in you , I heard her say . It 's time I admit I look for purple everywhere . I found these dreaming leaves and a tempting mushroom in Cockaponset State Forest this weekend ( the photos are untreated . ) In stores , I scan clothing racks and my gaze snaps to shades of purple . If I have to choose game pieces , accessories , or cell phone covers , purple is my default . My college application essay was about ' being purple ' and I recall my advisor reading the first paragraph out loud to me just before graduation , in my final week at Cornell , because he thought it would be amusing to look back . I promptly ripped the pages from his hands in embarrassment . When I left the office , I tossed the essay in the garbage . I 'm a little disappointed I didn 't keep it because I have forgotten its contents and now I don 't know what it means to be purple . I 'd like to know . Despite all this , I don 't think of purple as being my color . I actually think of it as being my grandmother 's . Maybe that 's why I look for it wherever I go . In honor of Banned Books Week , I point you to this essay by Haruki Murakami ( translated to English by RocketNews24 . ) This essay is a response to the controversy surrounding the Senkaku Islands and rising tension between Taiwan , China , and Japan . It 's about how we set boundaries and the way we draw lines and borders . Murakami compares the anger swelling from territory disputes to getting drunk on cheap liquor . He warns us of the resulting hangover . While not the focus of the essay , it is worth noting that , in protest of Japan , some Chinese booksellers have removed books by Japanese authors ( including Murakami ) as well as books about Japan from their shelves . But we should not block the exchange of souls that is cultural communication . We should not destroy the paths that so many have given so much to establish . So from now on , however we may be wounded , we must seek to maintain this path and to continue to leave it open . The first , first draft took four months . The second first draft ( yes , you 're reading this right ) is taking about the same . Revisions are endless . . . Children 's writer and interactive media producer . I write novels for middle grade and young adult readers . Here you 'll find musings on writing , New York City , and books , among other things . I hope you join in the conversation .

This past week has just breezed by . I can 't believe school is over . All we have next week are our final exams and a little party all of which I 'm skipping in favor of heading to Shanghai . I thought this week would be relaxing since we 'd covered most of the touristy things but it 's been nonstop . I 've spent almost every moment of the day with these guys whether it 's lunch , shopping , dinner or drinks . I think we can all feel our time slipping away . On Monday we met up in Houhai for a little shopping although Cynthia and I got stuck in rush hour traffic and arrived half an hour late . I wasn 't feeling that well but most of the guys were hungry so we headed to a restaurant that Stephan had seen a few doors down . Stephan is nuts ! Out of the 60 or so menu items only about 8 were made with ' normal ' animals or animal parts . Stephan wanted to order the deep fried worm and bee pupae combo platter but we bargained him down to just the worms . He also ordered frog which unfortunately can covered in so many chilies that even I found it inedible . Joanna ordered some sort of dried cooked beef which wasn 't half bad but everyone was very glad for the basic spring rolls I had ordered . I tried the worm but I couldn 't get it down . It had a weird seasoning on the outside I didn 't like but other than that it was a little like a crispy french fry but empty on the inside . It had been threatening to rain for days , so long in fact I couldn 't remember the last time I 'd worn my sunglasses . It 's rained a little here and there but not enough to drain these ominous dark clouds constantly hovering over Beijing . They finally let loose on Tuesday and we woke up on Wednesday to the first few patches of blue sky we 'd seen for weeks . We took a little trip to Wangfujing shopping area but again got stuck in terrible rush hour traffic . The roads here are very modern and the freeways are set up in concentric around the city . The on / off ramps just constantly follow alongside the road as the freeways aren 't elevated . I got in the front seat and played Solitaire on my Ipod while Joanna and Richard took pictures of each other ( their favorite pastime ) in the back seat . I saw the taxi driver 's registration papers and picture in front of me but when I looked over at him , he didn 't like remotely like the picture . We asked him who the person was in the picture and he got a bit nervous but we told him it wasn 't a problem and he seemed to relax a little . Wednesday night we headed to Vics for ladies night . Whoo hoo . They definitely have the most danceable music of all the places we 've been and while there are always too many people there , it 's air conditioned and has a great upstairs chill lounge . Stephan left at 1 : 30am so he could make it to school the next day . Stephan attendance has not been exemplary . Going out always seems to take precedence . But last Saturday , Cynthia and I had organized a little bet with him that he couldn 't make it to class for the entire week . We didn 't even say he had to be on time . He just had to make it before the bell rang for the first break . He was so sure he would win . We were thinking he just needed a little extra motivation to go to class but Cynthia and I were sorely disappointed to hear the bell ring on Thursday morning and know he 'd lost . Oh well free drinks for us ! On the last of real class , one of our classmates , Susan , brought her birthday cake to share with the class . It was a nice ending to a fun 3 weeks . Cynthia and I debated over whether or no to skip the second half of class . The weather outside was too nice but we stuck it out in the end . We went to find an electronics store in the afternoon and had to walk through Beijing University . What a beautiful expansive campus . Nothing like our little school . Maybe I 'll apply there next summer ! I 've got yet another cold but I 've got a great drug cocktail going so that it 's not too bothersome . We had dinner at a Korean Restaurant where they put hot coals in the middle of your table and you order meat and veggies to cook over them . It was delicious and fun . There were so many waiters there and they came over every five minutes or so to change the grill to keep it from getting too hot . We headed to Latinos which wasn 't what we were expecting . I thought it was going to be a cool dark little salsa spot but it was more of an old school dance lounge . There were lots of people there and the dancers were really pretty good . There was a great live band from Venezuela shaking their double jointed hips and singing their hearts out . We ordered a bottle of rum and some coke to share and Stephan wanted to play a drinking game with cards but they didn 't have any . Dice ? No dice . He looked bummed so I taught them to play ' I Never ' . It ended up being a very fun a night with everyone dancing up a storm . Ahhh . I 'll miss these guys . PLEASE don 't even ask me about the HSK Chinese Fluency Test ! What a nightmare test . The first part was listening to a tape and answering multiple choice questions about little paragraphs or dialogues . What a joke ! They only spoke the question once and as you begin to decipher it in your head the tape goes on to list the possible answers . The second part had long paragraphs of text and I didn 't know half the characters while the third part was kinda easy . I spent most of the afternoon with my friends and classmates laughing about how hard it was . the best student in our class said she really didn 't have a clue and we heard that a lot of students in the classes lower that us simply walked out . And this was the beginner test ! All forgiven though as the school brought us to a ' The Legend of Kung Fu ' performance at the Red Theatre . The Irish ambassador has proclaimed it more energetic than River dance . Oh yes ! Ignoring that comment , it was a great show . And it was free ! The show about the trials of a young boy becoming a monk and losing and finally finding his path was a little cheesy in places but the costumes and stunts and acrobatics were first rate . They made the kung fu moves look like a beautiful elaborate dance . The oddest thing were the men and boys doing back hand springs but instead of flipping back and pushing back up again with their hands , they would use their head . Yikes . We got back pretty late and went to Lush for a quick dinner before heading home . We crossed the street to head back and heard Stephan and Sana yell our names from a cab saying they were heading to Propaganda club . The club was just around the corner so we headed over . Free entry and 2 free drinks . Why aren 't all clubs like this ? Unfortunately the reason for the free drinks is the stifling heat emanating from the dance floor . We didn 't last too long before we were fully melted and ready for bed . I was almost to my dorm , when I saw about 25 black people hanging out at the Muslim restaurant on campus . I felt bad declining their offer to hang out but it was already 2am . I 've met a few of them around campus and all the ones I 've met are Nigerian . Ruth , you 're right ! There are Nigerians everywhere ! I was so bored during the first half of Friday 's class . Our first teacher is really nice but she talks took fast for me and I just didn 't have the mental power to stay with her . Almost half the class skipped the first hour and a third skipped the whole day . More Chinese dumplings after class . I will sorely miss them when I leave . We headed to Cidan Shopping area for the afternoon with Gary , a Canadian programmer guy on vacation from his job . Shopping with Joanna and her boyfriend is not the easiest thing as they always get stuck at the first booth near the entrance while we wander the entire floor . By the time we 're done with the floor we walk back to find them still haggling at the same place . We finally made it up to the electronics department and spent time laughing at the DVD and CD selection . You can buy DVDs everywhere in Beijing for about $ 1 . 25 per DVD . It 's crazy . They do such a good job in printing the boxes it can be hard to tell that it 's a fake . Although it 's pretty easy to discern that the copies of Mr . and Mrs . Smith and War of the Worlds are fake since they 're not out yet . The new movies even have homemade subtitles . I don 't know why anyone would ever go to the cinema at that price . We all met for dinner in SanLutun again . Vietnamese this time . It 's hard to miss my old Lonely Planet guide book because of all the monthly ' what 's going on ' magazine 's here . That 's Beijing is our favorite . There are so many restaurant and clubs in the city and LP really doesn 't do them justice . 80 % are in Chaoyang district ( SanLutun ) near the embassies and therefore all the expats . We are so uncoordinated when we order and we always get way to much food . Joanne and Richard can eat let me tell you and they always order about 4 dishes between them . But it 's great to try so many things and laugh at it all . The restaurant had a pool of water with fish in it that you had to cross on stepping stones to get to the bathroom so we made sure not to drink too much . We hit a few clubs , the best by far was Vics which was in the samWe headed to a little alley off SanLutun Lu Cynthia and I had discovered on our first night a out 2 weeks ago . There was a little mall with some really cute original clothes and jewelery and and great outdoor sandwich shop that Richard enjoyed so much that he ordered another sandwich . Exhausted , we headed home . We had a couple hours to nap and they meet again for dinner and drinks . We went to a Brazilian BBQ where they bring out meat to slice at your table . They kept ignoring us so had to yell at them to stop at our table and give us food . The service was really bad but the meat was good . Drinks afterward at The World of Suzie Wongs was nice . It 's more of a lounge and once we found a seat upstairs away from the crowds I was very happy to laugh and and drink . It really is so nice to be in a country where drinking is not frowned upon . After 3 months in Muslim and Hindu countries I 'm happy to imbibe on a few rum and cokes . Chinese beer is about the same cost as a soft drink so I 'll have a brewski thanks . On Sunday I just wanted to stay in bed and chill out but it was Hutong Tour Day . Hutongs are little alleyways all over Beijing where people live and there are cute little shops . We all met at 1pm looking haggard and not very enthusiastic . We had no idea how to find the pedicabs to take us around the Hutongs so we headed to the Forbidden City where we 'd heard some touts offering tours the day before . We arrived to the same place as the day before but couldn 't find any pedicabs we walked around for a while but then decided to go straight to Houhai and do the Hutong thing during the week . As soon as we arrived to Houhai we were surrounded by touts offering Hutong tours so we jumped in pedicabs and took off . It was a crappy tour and our drivers kept offering to take us to places that were supposed to be included in the tour but for extra money . We were a bit annoyed but just told them to drive and leave us alone . We had already paid his manager ( against my advise ) so there was nothing we could do . We felt bad for our driPlease don 't tell anyone but I 'm secretly addicted to Chinese Pop Music . My roommate and I only play Chinese music video channel when we 're studying and I 'm a bit hooked . I 'm not sure how 50 Cent got through the censors here but every once in a while I hear his nasty little lyrics . We 've been going nonstop and would kill for some Sanyu time but I also think that once this week is over and I 'm back to traveling on my own I 'll be thinking how great it was to hang out with the same people for such a long time . I hope I haven 't lost my backpacker spirit ! 05 : 30 AM | Permalink Even with Joanna 's brilliant Mandarin , it 's still such a trial getting a taxi in this city . The problem isn 't so much that the drivers don 't speak English , it 's that they only understand Chinese names of famous places . We were all at a loss on how to say ' Beijing Hilton ' in Mandarin so we almost gave up . I was lucky to find the Hilton hotel listed on a map of the city that I 'd nicked at the airport . The taxi driver smiled reassuringly and we were on our way to dim sum . We made our way up to the hotel restaurant and were lucky to get a table for 4 with no reservation as they had just opened . It was unlike dim sum that I 'm used to in that there were no tables on wheels visiting tables offering little plates . Instead there was a menu of dim sum and we we able to choose any item and amount we desired for about $ 8 each . Waiter after waiter brought us our plates and we dove in with gusto . I ate my shu mai with a heavy heart because I knew that there was shark fin in it but I was so longing for shu mai . I still feel guilty . Cynthia and I ordered a Chrysanthemum tea which was light and flowery . One of our dishes arrived a bit cold , I 'm sure because there wasn 't enough room on the able to add anything else and it was left to wait . The dumplings were all freshly made and perfect and we tried to let Joanna enjoy her chicken feet without us making funny faces at her but it was hard . We tried every dessert on the menu but Joanne and Richard weren 't satisfied with their small cup of strawberry ice cream with dragon fruit and we didn 't leave until they had finished 3 more cups a piece . We waddled out and headed to Temple of Heaven Park ( or Tiantan Park if you want the driver to understand you ) to walk off some of our food babies . It is a large beautifully manicured park like all the parks in Beijing but were were pretty disappointed to find that the ' Hall of Prayer for Good Harvests ' Temple was closed for renovation . Many people come to these parks just to hang out and there is a walk through fee that you can pay . There were peWe have 2 teachers each day my favorite teacher is our Monday and Tuesday third and fourth period teacher . she speaks so clearly that I can really follow her when she explains things and she likes to ask us in depth questions about the text for that day 's lesson so it pays to be prepared . We found out that we 'll be taking the HSK Exam on Thursday . HSK is the Chinese equivalent of TOEFL and was created in part by my University . It 's used to find out what level of Chinese fluency we 've attained thus far . Should be fun . In the afternoon we walked around to a few shopping malls on around campus . I had an actual conversation with a sales woman and got exactly what i wanted all in Chinese . I was very proud . We met up with Stephan and Sanna and ate dinner at a Japanese restaurant before heading to a foot massage parlor around the corner . Stephan and I were in one room talking and laughing with our masseuses . It wasn 't as painful as Stephan promised it would be but he the better place couldn 't handle 5 of us at once . A really nice way to end the day . On Tuesday we went to Walmart with a really nice guy from Iowa named Matt . It just opened a little while ago only one subway stop away from our school . Matt wanted to buy a digital camera and was a little lost so I walked him through the finer points and he seemed very happy with his purchase . The electronics section was great fun and they had weird wacky products like Little Baby Urinate here but we were also excited to walk through their grocery section . It is really hard to find some things in China . Deodorant for some reason is on nary a shelf . Cheese is like gold and Tampons almost nonexistent . ( Geez , what a weird list ! ) We wandered the aisles checking out everything and putting a few interesting finds like 5 flavor fish chips , and rose falvored yogurt into our baskets . We had dinner at Lush which is restaurant nearby school owned by a Canadian . Go Canada ! It 's the perfect place to hit if you 're feeling a little peckish for some Westerrn food . I had a hamburger and side Caesar salad and for a split second I could have sworn I was back at home . The restaurant and our University is located in an up and coming area called Wudaokou so al lthe wait staff walk around with shirt with ' Lush ' on the front and ' I Love Wu ' on the back . There must be someone back home who could use one of those ; ) Correction : My editorial staff greatly apologizes for saying China went to the moon when they really only went to space . They are really unreliable and quite lazy ( my editorial staff that is ) . Thanks to TWO of my older brothers for pointing it out . I wonder if this qualifies me for a job at the NY Times ; ) " Bye . Here 's the Key . " has pretty much been the extent of my conversations with my roommate this week . But I 'm not complaining since I have to hear Joanne 's roommate stresses each morning as we walk to class . I finally booked my plane trip to Tokyo which was hella expensive but worth it . I may have to change my dates a bit to get to see some of the sumo tournament but I 'll deal with that later . On Thursday we had a few drinks over at Sana 's hotel and then headed to an bar called Taku near school . It was a bit too much like a frat party with bad rap music and scary dance moves so we all made our excuses and ducked out of there at midnight . Friday was shopping day and we headed to the Silk Market which is a huge 4 story building made up of individual stalls mostly selling the same things . The bargaining was intense as I got a cotton shirt with a fake GAP label down from 165 to 25 yuan . But you have to be very careful in each stall because as soon as you point at or touch and item you are instantly locked into ' buy mode ' . The seller starts offering their price and if you try to walk away they forcefully grab your arm and explaining the finer points of the item . It 's not easy to get away at that point so you have to play along a little until you see your opening and then run for it ! I brought my classmates back to my old youth hostel to try and track down Lydia . Luckily she was in the lounge with a Canadian guy who I 'd also met before . We all went for a greasy Chinese dinner and a few drinks at a really nice outdoor Arabic bar called Soku . A great way to ease into the weekend . i spent most of the time talking to the Canadian guy soaking up his Canadian humour . It 's been way to long since I 've spent any quality time in Canada . Saturday , many of the foreign student were off on the weekend Xian trip and my ' gang ' wanted to go to the zoo . I hate zoos and I 'd heard that the Beijing zoo animal conditions were less than stellar . I met them for lunch and before they headed off and told them of my great find during my early morning walk - Starbucks ! We agreed to meet later and enjoy a little Frappaccino magic . I spent a nice quite day walking the streets around campus . I finally found a little bar I kept hearing about called Lush . It 's really more of a cafe and they have free wireless connections for those with laptops . More than that , they have a western menu ! Pancakes , bacon , smoothies , Caesar salads and hamburgers . I can 't wait to go back . I ran into Stephan there and I bought a Chinese comic book at try to read . The guys showed up at about 6pm and we headed off to Starbucks where there was an add for ' All you can eat dim sum ' at the Beijing Hilton for about $ 8 . Guess where we 're going tomorrow ! Our teacher didn 't give us any weekend homework but she did pull me aside \ to ask me where I got my Chinese because it was so authentic ( Thanks Wild Laoshi ! ) . For those who are wondering it 's KE Shanyi but it 's more impressive when I write it ! 03 : 57 AM | Permalink Well the Chinese is finally getting into my skull . It 's only my third lesson but I really feel like it 's getting in . This is the perfect level for me . It 's challenging but accessible . There are about 6 people in our class who tried to move up to the next level but they found it too fast for them . Sanna from Holland was able to move up because she 's been studying Mandarin for over 2 years full time in school . Class is from 8am to noon with 3 ten minute breaks . I thought about bringing my own snacks or even coffee but the canteen is ridiculously cheap . Coffee , bad coffee , is 25 cents and a good sized dim sum like dumpling is about 7 cents . I 've planned to spend the hottest part of the day after lunch in my room studying in my beautiful air con dorm so a few of us agreed to meet up a little later on Monday night for Beijing Duck at a restaurant Sanna knew was good . Joanne 's Mandarin is excellent so she saved us from the rigors of ordering and we had a great meal . We ordered Beijing ( Peking ) Duck 3 ways which means the yummy duck breast and the separated skin , duck soup and the rest of the duck meat stir fried with onions ( my favorite ) . The skin was crispy but a little fattier than we had hoped but I think that that is how they like it here . We were on a high after dinner so we decided to continue on to Houhai bar district . They really like to keep their bars all together in designated areas here in Beijing . Houhai is gorgeous . All the bars and restaurants ( and a Starbucks ) surround a small serene lake . Some are quite expensive and have exquisite exterior and patio lighting . There were also some funky clothing shops that Cynthia and I vowed to return . We sat on a rooftop patio and enjoyed the rest of the very warm night before finding a back way out onto the street . Turning around we just couldn 't believe that such a beautiful area was hidden just behind the few buildings we 'd passed . Joanna lives in my building one floor below me so we walked back to the dorm together with her boyfriend Richard . I was brushing my teWe were all a little sleepy in class on Tuesday but not too bad . We scurried back to our rooms after to class to study for a few hours before meeting up again to head to the New Summer Palace . I haven 't replaced my guide book yet so I had no idea where we were going . No one had really read anything about it so we just walked around the expansive grounds . We were extremely lucky because the temperature had dropped about 8 degrees since noon when we were cooking in the classroom . It looked like it was going to rain but not a drop came down . The palace ground are also around a lake with a beautiful bridge running to a small island in the middle . The most excellent part without a doubt was taking pictures of us all dressed up . We had such a laugh . I usually take about 3 times as many as I save but I didn 't know which ones to throw out . Hope you like them ! We finally tracked down a hidden dumpling restaurant near school . Omigosh ! A plate of 15 dumplings , the smallest serving is 70 cents . It cost less than $ 2 to feed the 4 of us . Looks like our new hangout !

Apparently my fake voice - the low one that I use when I 'm in a loud room or when I 'm trying to sound manly - is actually my real voice . The voice I thought was my real voice is actually some fake voice that has been hi - jacking my vocal chords since right around puberty . What this means is that , from now on , I will have to speak in my real voice , which used to be my fake voice . According to my therapist , my high , scratchy , downright disturbing voice has actually been damaging my vocal chords , not to mention scaring away scores of attractive females during my high - school and college years . And if I don 't stop using my fake voice ( which I thought was my real voice ) at once , I will someday require surgery . How nice . For those of you who only know me from my writing , I have always had a scratchy voice . Actually , " scratchy " doesn 't really give it justice . It 's a weak , high - pitched , irritating , sounds - like - I 'm - running - my - vocal - chords - on - a - cheese - grader voice . As long as I can remember , I 've been greeted by people with the same five words : " What 's wrong with your voice ? " Even my closest friends and relatives frequently ask me if I 'm sick or if I 've lost my voice . My voice is so high that when I call for pizza they always say : " And what would you like on that , ma ' am ? " As Dr . Matt wrote up my prescription , I began to notice that the nasal Novacaine was moving down through the roof of my mouth and into my upper lip and front teeth , rendering them completely numb . The good doctor informed me that the numbness was natural and " would wear off in 10 to 15 minutes " , which apparently in medical terms equates to 6 or 7 hours . After slurping my dinner through a straw that evening , I finally regained feeling in my front teeth around bedtime . The good news is that , after a while , my voice should actually become clearer and stronger . The bad news is that , for the next several months , I will be freaking out my friends , relatives , and co - workers with my new masculine voice . This will be a challenge for my friends , many of whom have made lucrative careers out of ridiculing my scratchy effeminate voice . It 's kind of sad really . Painful and humiliating as it may be , I think I 'll miss my ridiculously high , scratchy voice . It 's been a part of me for so long , and it will be difficult to let it go . No more singing along with Celine Dion in the shower ; no more Axl Rose impersonations at karaoke night ; no more hearing " What 's wrong with your voice ? " on a daily basis . " Mom just took Dad to the E . R . " said my sister . " He 's having trouble remembering anything . He doesn 't even remember going to work today . " I hung up the phone . Numb . Cass would be at yoga for another hour or so , her cell phone off . I was at home with the kids , right in the middle of bedtime madness . I couldn 't leave , but I didn 't want to stay either . I thought about calling the neighbor to come over to stay with the kids , but I just couldn 't subject them to the wrath of Hurricane Isaac . When we got there , Dad seemed relatively fine . Mom , my sister Nicole , and my friend George were already there . Mom seemed weary , and I was about to find out why . And so it went , hour after hour . He was like a record that would skip at the same spot and then jump back to the beginning . Just as we 'd explain everything to him , he 'd suddenly forget it all and we 'd be right back at the beginning . We tried to keep a straight face , but after you say " Keilbasa , beans , and tomatoes " for the umpteenth time , you can 't help but laugh . The doctors weren 't sure what was going on . They had done a cat scan and an EKG as soon as he arrived and everything looked clear . No signs of a stroke , bleeding on the brain , or anything serious like that . The funny thing is … I knew what was going on almost immediately . About a month ago I was out on a long run , listening to a podcast called Radiolab . The particular episode I was listening to was about different kinds of loops . One of these " loops " was the story of a young woman whose mother had called her one day and was having trouble remembering things . The woman immediately took her mother to the hospital , thinking it was a stroke . Then , over the next several hours , the mother repeated the same set of questions every 90 seconds or so ( Sound familiar ? ) . Eventually , as the hours passed , the mother 's short - term memory slowly began to expand and she began to remember more and more until she had made a complete recovery . They determined it was a rare and relatively harmless malady known as Transient Global Amnesia ( TGA ) . Hearing this gave me some peace , but it was still exhausting - and somewhat freaky - to answer the same questions over and over again for someone who seemed otherwise normal . At one point Dad didn 't remember that I had a son or the fact that we had moved to a new house almost three years ago . Another time he asked if his parents were still alive ; they passed away more than a decade ago . Around midnight we all agreed that it would be best if we just went home and let Dad try to get some sleep . Thing is , it was hard picking a good moment to leave . As soon as you 'd get up to go , the line of questioning would begin again . So I went out and asked the nurse for a pen and paper and I wrote Dad a note explaining everything , should he get confused in the middle of the night . It was difficult falling asleep that night . As I lay there , I thought to myself , What if it never stops ? What if he just keeps asking the questions over and over … forever ? ( " For the millionth time , Dad - KIELBASA , BEANS , AND TOMATOES ! ! ! " ) " Well , I know I 'm here for a reason . I just can 't remember how I got here . I know I went to work yesterday , but after that it 's all fuzzy . " I began to fill him in on what had happened , totally expecting him to turn into a broken record again . But he never did . He just stared at me , amazed and bewildered . For him , the previous day never existed . Was it a coincidence that I had heard that podcast just weeks earlier ? I don 't think so . Some things are just too coincidental to be a coincidence . I 've always had this vision in my mind of what it would be like the first time I took my kids to a Pittsburgh Pirates game . There 'd be oohs and aahs as we emerged from the corridor out into the open to see PNC Park spread out before us in all its splendor . There 'd be plenty of nachos and hot dogs and cotton candy ( and beer for Daddy ) . We 'd root , root , root for the home team , and maybe I 'd even snag a foul ball to the amazement of my adoring offspring . This past Sunday I hoped this vision would become a reality . In my grand vision , however , I forgot to include the part about carrying Isaac on my shoulders several blocks from our bargain ( $ 12 ) parking space to the stadium and then all the way up the never - ending ramp to the nose - bleed section . By the time we got to our seats , I was ready for a nap . Coincidentally , so was Isaac , which made keeping him in his seat for more than three pitches a near impossibility . Meanwhile , as the scent of nachos and hot dogs and other ballpark delectables filled the air , Cassie took out her Tupperware container of spinach and feta salad and passed me my almond butter and real - fruit spread sandwich on whole wheat bread . You see , not only was this my kids ' first Major League Baseball game , it was also our first day of the 100 Days of Real Food Challenge - an health and wellness program based on self - inflicted torture and food deprivation , into which my wife had so graciously enrolled the entire family . So , as my friends around me feasted on melted cheddar , French fries , ice cream , beer , and other normal desirable foodstuffs , I choked down my dry sandwich and sipped on bottled water . But then a miracle happened . Somewhere far below , one of those crazy people who try to keep you entertained between innings , took out her hot - dog bazooka and fired a frankfurter high into air . As the wiener projectile screamed across the blue September sky , I could see that the wind was blowing it in my direction . Then , as the meaty meteor fell back to earth , I reached over the guy next to me and snagged it right out of mid - air ! Willie Mays would have been proud . Apparently hot dogs - especially hot dogs blasted out of a cannon - do not qualify as " real food " , and therefore I was not permitted to consume my coveted prize . My friend Don tried to convince me to eat it , saying that it was most certainly a sign from God , much like the manna that fell from heaven to the Israelites . But alas , my wife was not swayed by this obvious act of Divine intervention and instead offered me some carrots and humus . I don 't remember much of the game after that , partly because I was delirious from starvation and partly because we missed several innings as we watched my kids navigate the chaos that was the ballpark 's indoor playground . We could 've saved some money on gas and tickets if we 'd just stayed home and played in the park across the street from my house . But then again , I never would have caught that airborne weenie . Whatever you do , I told my wife afterward , never let me forget what a painful , exhausting , miserable experience this was . I never want to run again ! This past Sunday I ran 17 miles as part of my training for the Columbus Marathon in October . It was the farthest distance I had ever run . I guess time really does heal all wounds . Either that or all the red wine I 've imbibed over the years has broken the part of my memory that remembers pain . To be fair , the OBX half marathon shouldn 't have been as difficult as it was . I 'm not one to make excuses … but if I were , I 'd tell you that I had been sick for the two weeks leading up to the race and therefore never completed my training . That I was woefully uneducated about proper running nutrition . That it was really windy that day . And cold . And that I had a side stitch . And , oh yeah , my nipples were raw . But like I said , I don 't like to make excuses . Anyway , immediately after the race I announced that I was officially retiring from running , at least the long - distance variety . I had no desire to run that far ever again in my life . I had accomplished what I wanted to accomplish , albeit barely , and that was good enough for me . From then on I 'd stick to the occasional jog around town . Or better yet , watching TV . But as the years passed I gradually forgot about the pain and began to go farther and farther on my regular runs around town . Then , this past spring , I ran 10 miles , just to see if I could do it . And you know what ? It wasn 't that bad . It actually felt great . Pretty soon I was getting up at 5 a . m . on Saturday morning , just so I could have the quiet , peaceful avenues of my still - sleeping town all to myself . Then one day it hit me : I want to run a marathon ! The big 26 . 2 ! Never mind that half that distance had almost killed me years before , when I was younger . This was something I wanted to do . It was something I had to do . Maybe it 's because I 'm approaching middle age and I feel a need to prove that I 'm not over the hill just yet . Maybe I like the idea of challenging myself and shooting for something that scares the bajeezus out of me . Then again , maybe I 'm just nuts . But hey , literally thousands of people run marathons every year . People of all ages and of all shapes and sizes . I mean , if Oprah can complete a marathon , surely little old me can do it too , right ? I guess we 'll see . My kids have no idea what Daddy is doing . All they know is they wake up to find me sprawled out on the living room floor , way too tired , sweaty , and smelly to play horsey just yet . Of course they 'll probably run a marathon themselves throughout the course of the day , just in their normal running , jumping , and bouncing around the house . And then they 'll put up a fight when it 's finally time for bed . The little jerks . I 've always known it was coming . Like a slowly approaching storm , far off on the horizon . Ominous and inevitable . I 'm talking , of course , of the day when we 'd have to start potty training my son . We decided to wait a little longer with my son , for various reasons . For one , his " hardware " is a little more complicated . Secondly , he 's more Tasmanian devil than toddler . But when he started waking up with a dry diaper , we begrudgingly admitted it was time . So I dragged the dusty old Elmo potty up from the basement , and so began the training . Our first attempt to civilize our young man was relatively successful . It was a challenge , however , just keeping him on the potty until nature took its course . Then , after reading every book in the house to him and entertaining him with every toy I could find , his patience had worn thin . I actually had to physically hold him down as I pleaded with him to stay put . Finally , nearly two hours in - Hallelujah ! - we had pee . Since that first marathon struggle , it really hasn 't been too bad . Oh , he puts up a fight at first . But then we just bribe him with M & Ms , and suddenly it 's Niagara Falls . Pavlov would be proud . Funny thing is , every time he 's finished doing his business , he immediately stands up , points to the potty and says , " Look , Daddy … water ! " My wife and I try to make it very clear that the liquid in the potty is not water . This is the kid , after all , who licked the bottom of his shoe , which had been resting in the street gutter , just so he could get a drink . This is the kid who , whenever we give him a shower , lies down flat on the floor to suck the warm , filthy water into his mouth . We understand that he has a drinking problem , and we 're terrified that we 'll walk in to the bathroom one day to find him slurping down the freshly squeezed contents of his red - plastic bedpan . One thing I 'm looking forward to , personally , is teaching my boy about the joys of peeing outside . There 's nothing quite like " watering " the flower garden late at night , beneath a clear , moonlit sky . It 's a liberating experience and one of the greatest gifts a father can share with his son . Unfortunately , the latter has become a commonplace occurrence in our house . I 'm not sure if it 's hereditary or a lack of adequate fiber in her diet , but my daughter is on a once - every - five - days schedule . As a result , I 've had to hone my plumbing abilities over the past couple of years . It was during this most recent bathroom marathon that I was reminded of this one time when I was around six or seven years old . My grandparents were babysitting my sisters and me , when I was struck with a terrible stomachache . Such abdominal pains were common with me , since I 'd do everything in my power to put off going Number 2 for as long as possible . Of course , after about a week of squinching , I 'd be more backed up than the DMV on a Saturday morning . My grandmother , however , was a firm believer in maintaining a healthy bowel , and she was determined to end my suffering . She immediately took me to the bathroom and sat me on the " commode " , as she called it . Then , the devoted Catholic that she was , she knelt before me and began to pray the Rosary , beseeching the Almighty to help me " move my bowels . " Despite my grandmother 's earnest pleas , an hour or so went by with no progress . Apparently the Good Lord had more pressing matters to attend to . But Grandma was resolute . While continuing to pray , she resorted to Plan B : the dreaded enema . I have no words to describe what happened next , so I 'll just leave it to your imagination . ( You 're welcome . ) Another hour or so went by with more Rosaries and more enemas . By this time I was exhausted and ready to throw in the towel . But Grandma was steadfast in her mission . She said we were going to stay there as long as it took , no matter if we had to say a thousand Hail Marys and Our Fathers . Finally , about three hours into the ordeal , Grandma 's prayers were answered . Sweaty and completely pooped , so to speak , I stumbled off to my bed . Although it was only 7 p . m . , I slept straight through ' til 10 o ' clock the next morning . I didn 't say the Rosary or resort to Plan B with my daughter . But I did say a few prayers during the process . I even asked Grandma , wherever she was , to use her good standing with the Almighty and ask him to give my baby girl some assistance , as long as He wasn 't off saving some shipwrecked sailors , smiting the wicked , or helping Tim Tebow throw a touchdown . On the other side of the room , however , there were four older gentlemen who from my past experiences I recognized as serious book hounds . You could tell by their appearance : unshaven , dowdy , showing an obvious disregard for society 's conventions . And each was wearing a distinctive hat : a fedora , a railroad engineer - type , a floppy farmer - style , and a camouflage ball cap . Two of them also sported long , grey ponytails . For those of us in the book - hunting world , these are all common traits among book - hoarding hermits . My guess is their scruffy appearance buys them reading time from their wives , who want nothing to do with them in such an unkempt state . Looking around , it was easy to pick out the newbies who foolishly failed to bring along a bag or other container in which to put their book sale finds . Rookie mistake . Once you get inside and the elbows and books start flying , trying to hold your books is futile . What worried me was that each member of the Hat Crew was carrying a large cardboard box , which could hold a lot more books than my Giant Eagle reusable grocery sack . I turned and saw another unfamiliar face carrying a plastic storage crate . Obviously this wasn 't his first rodeo . We exchanged glances and nodded - a subtle acknowledgement of each other 's presence . He was younger than any of the Hat Crew guys , which meant he 'd be able to maneuver better in the crammed confines of the bargain book room . But at the last second he got into the vintage book room line instead . Crisis averted . Two minutes before the sale began , the room fell quiet . The excitement was palpable . My heart was pounding as I counted down the seconds . Fortunately I had skipped my afternoon coffee in order to avoid any last - minute " emergencies . " As the clock struck five , the madness began ! The poor old library volunteer barely escaped being trampled to death as she opened the door to the bargain book room . Pushing my way inside , my original intention was to head straight for Non - Fiction . But seeing Camou Hat and Fedora make for History , and Railroad Engineer and Farmer dash for Biographies , I altered my strategy and headed instead for Trade Paperback Fiction . Scanning each table , I carefully navigated the narrow aisles , politely nudging people out of my way . Within the first 10 seconds I managed to grab three great finds : a Cormac McCarthy , a Chuck Palahniuk , and a Dave Eggers - Score ! A minute in I was up to seven . Meanwhile , the other rabid book hunters jockeyed for position . After snatching a couple Children 's titles , I tried to navigate my way back to Non - Fiction to scavenge for anything Civil War . But it was just too risky ; I couldn 't chance getting cornered in the Self - Help section . So I back - tracked to Fiction , scrunching down to scan the books beneath the tables - a commonly overlooked area only we experienced book - salers know about . You just have to be careful not to get stepped on . Or worse . In the end , the Hat Crew wasn 't much of a threat after all . Who knows what they stuffed in their boxes to haul back to their dilapidated shacks in the woods ? Hopefully just a bunch of Zane Greys , George R . R . Martins , or random volumes of the Oxford English Dictionary to complete their sad collections . RT @ iheartpgh : One of the many rooms in the Moltrup Steel Mansion in Beaver Falls . You can buy this historic home for $ 80 , 500 . Th … https : / / … 3 weeks ago Post was not sent - check your email addresses ! Email check failed , please try again Sorry , your blog cannot share posts by email . % d bloggers like this :

Episode 51 of 82 finds Sawyer in the past , conning a convict to get his sentence shorted , that he is serving for a failed con on a woman , who visits him in the slammer to say they have a child together ( is this her trying to con him ? ) Sawyer in the present is still a convict of sorts ( he and Kate are still locked in separate cages ) and his attempted con to aid an escape fails , leading to him being on the receiving end of con . Tagged : TDTVS I 'm A Secret Santa The Engineering Department at ASCO has decided to adopt a needy kid from a list provided by Helping Hands through our HR Department . There were 6 kids on the list given to our company and each child had made out a wish list , plus we were provided with sizes so clothes can be purchased too . Yesterday we went to Wally World and bought a pair of sneakers and a football . Today we stopped at a bookstore and bought a half dozen mystery / educational books . A husband in his back yard is trying to fly a kite . He throws the kite up in the air , the wind catches it for a few seconds , then it comes crashing back down to earth . He tries this a few more times with no success . All the while , his wife is watching from the kitchen window , muttering to herself how men need to be told how to do everything . She opens the window and yells to her husband , " You need a piece of tail " The man turns with a confused look on his face and says , " Make up your mind . Last night , you told me to go fly a kite . " Tagged : Jokes The Cost of Living Fifty - two of eighty - two is Mr . Eko centered . Off island flashbacks show him in his first days taking over as priest from his now dead brother . The former " bad man " has a very hard changing ways when faced with the black market , medicine and the " militia " in his African village . On island in the present day he is still recovering from the effects of the hatch explosion and sees his brother in a vision . In the end he is killed by the mysterious black cloud . I 'm ging to miss Mr . Eko , he was the most interesting character both on and off the island . Tagged : TDTVS Sturgeon 's Law Re - Explained Derived from a quote by science fiction author Theodore Sturgeon , who once said , " Sure , 90 % of everything on the SciFi Channel is crud . That 's because they are now showing wrestling and Mork & Mindy . " Oddly , when Sturgeon 's Law is cited , the final word is almost invariably changed to ' crap ' . Started up , still up . Episode 53 of 82 centers around Kate and central part in the on island love triangle of her , Jack & Sawyer . Kate is taken to where Jack is being held and tells him he has to operate on Ben to save him or they will kill Sawyer . Jack refuses . She figures out a way to climb out of her cage and breaks into Sawyer 's . They end up doing the deed , but Jack " happens " to see them on a security camera . Thinking that Kate cares for Sawyer he agrees to operate to spare Sawyer after all . Very soap opera - ish episode in that regard . In the off island flashback Kate , or Monica as she known here , falls in love with a cop named Kevin while still a fugitive and on the run . Our groom is played by none other than Captain Tightpants , Nathan Fillion from Firefly . In the end Monica can 't really stay married , so she has to leave . She drugs Kevin 's iced tea and runs from him . I can only hope that the producers just thought of trying to work in a way for Kate to have the knock out drugs on her lips and kiss him , like Mal had Saffron do to him in the Firefly episode " Our Mrs . Reynolds " , before dismissing it . Tagged : TDTVS Not In Portland Number 54 of 82 concerns how Juliet ended up on the island , she was recruited by a company called Mittelos Bioscience that wants her for her fertility research , but as with all things Lost , that doesn 't end up exactly what she does . My favorite bit is where she tells the folks recruiting her that her husband would never agree to let her go , the only way that 'll happen is if he gets hit by a bus . Guess what happens … Tagged : TDTVS Holy Airbrush Batman We are less than 7 weeks to the Season Five premier of TDTVS and ABC has started tossing out promotional photos . Here is one that shows all the main cast members . Where is Jin ? Was he left off because he actually did die on the freighter ? None of the other main dead people are in there either ( if you don 't count Locke who was in the coffin in the final scene of Season Four ) , Christian , Claire ( of course there is some speculation that she isn 't actually dead ) and Charlie . ( 55 / 82 ) This was considered a odd departure because we get a flashback that happens during a flashback , but is it really ? When Desmond turned the fail safe key and destroyed the hatch he was sent back 5 years earlier when he was dating Penny . He can remember some of the things that happened , a sort of deja vu , and he stumbles on Charlie as a street musician and remembers him from the island , but Charlie doesn 't know him . On island in the present Desmond can see the future , not all of it and not at will , but he gets random bits at random times . Right now he can see how Charlie dies . He can prevent it , but the universe will course correct , and eventually it will happen . Tagged : TDTVS Thanks , I Think ? When we got home from work tonight , we noticed that someone had raked the front yard . Didn 't clean the driveway or do the small side strip on the other side of the driveway , just the front part . It is not much because about half the yard is landscaped as a natural area , but it would take a person a half hour or so to do the job . There was a nice neat pile of the raked leaves in the street . Very strange . No other yard on either side of us was clean , nor across the street either . Did someone get that far before realizing they were at the wrong house on the wrong street ? Is it like those wash your windshield shakedowns at intersections , is someone going to knock on our door tomorrow and want $ 20 ? Started down , went up , went down , back up , still up . We went out this afternoon and cleaned the rest of the leaves off the driveway and sidewalks and such . Afterward I pulled the car out of the garage and gave it a washing . It was pretty dirty from the rains of a couple weeks ago and the drenching it got last Saturday on the trip back from HHI . Maybe tomorrow I 'll pull it back out and give it a wax . For the first time in a while we went for a bike ride today . At first we were going to ride our single bikes this afternoon , but changed it to the tandem tonight . We went out around 7 PM when it was fully dark and cruised a couple neighborhoods looking at Christmas lights . Started up , went down , back up , still up . But didn 't . The picture above is from yesterday 's running around , the photo is not the best as I only had time to take 3 shots before he hid on me and plus I was using the digital zoom to get close . Finally around three o ' clock I decided to back the Emperor out of the garage and wax him . With me out of her hair Donna got down to writing out most of the rest of the Christmas cards . When I was done waxing I put the MAZDA & MIATA badges back on the car , it was easier than having to get the wax residue out of the little holes in the bumper . In the fading daylight we took a short drive around town to naturally blow off the rest of the wax dust that had adhered to the car due to the static charge created by rubbing a cotton cloth on a metal object in low humidity air . We mailed the Christmas cards , so go ahead and wait by your mailbox . On island he strikes a bargain with Ben that he will help doctor his now infected back to prevent further damage he is prevents Juliet from being executed for killing someone while helping Sawyer and Kate escape . One of he others who speaks Chinese tells Jack his tattoo means , " He walks amongst us , but he is not one of us . " Tagged : TDTVS William & Mary We have been watching a British TV show called William & Mary . Cute little show that is about a widower with two kids that meets a single mom with two kids through a dating service . They have a complicated life full of mirth and pathos , partly because he is a mortician and she is a midwife , party because all the kids are teen aged and partly because , well that 's life . Netflix has 3 discs available with 4 episodes on each which encompasses 2 seasons . They don 't call them seasons tough , kind of hard to when there are only 6 episodes for each one . They call them series . Trouble is the all that is available from Netflix is Series 1 and 2 , not the third and final one , you can get it in England though . I could buy it and have it shipped here , but $ 30 seems a bit much to spend for something that I will have to rip to remove the region coding and rerecord to a DVD to watch it here . May still do it … The number 57 is my favorite number and episode 57 of 82 has to be my favorite LOST episode . And that is partly because my favorite character is Hurley and this episode is about him . The first thing we get is a flashback that shows Hurley suffers from the same fate as most our our survivors do , father issues , to wit , he leaves him and his mother at an early age . Off - island we get a bribed psychic and a meteor destroying a fast food restaurant . While on - island Hurley , with Vincent the dog 's help , discovers an overturned VW van leftover from Dharma . The van 's mummified driver is removed , along with some flat , warm Dharma beer , and Hurley tries to start it - no go , dead battery . But with Charlie riding shotgun , he get Sawyer and Jin to push them down a steep hill to get the van started . It does , and when it does , the 8 - track player does too and Three Dog Night 's Shambala blasts from the speakers . Tagged : Food , TDTVS Mitsuoka Himiko Believe it or not this is a modified Miata . An enterprising Japanese firm has created this Morgan inspired conversion of a 3rd generation MX - 5 . You can see it in the interior and the doors . There are a bunch more photos of the $ 50 , 000 Himiko ( along with links to a couple more interesting cars made by the same company ) over on the Jalopnik post where I stumbled on this . Episode 58 of 82 is jammed full of excitement on - island . Hurley whoops up on Sawyer in a game of ping pong and because he lost he can 't use his trademark nicknames when talking to or about the rest of the survivors . Elsewhere a cowbell leads Sayid , Kate and Locke to a new Dharma station , the Flame . The Flame is run by the man with an eye patch , Mikhail and we get Sayid shot in the arm , fist fights between Mikhail and Sayid , Kate and an Other , Ms . Klugh , in the basement , Locke playing chess aganst a coupter and finally a giant ass explosion . Just about 5 miles outside the touristy St . Augustine , Florida the Emperor passed by 85 , 000 miles . We stopped in for a brief visit and all those ubiquitous trolleys were nearly empty of tourists . We parked in the lot of the Fountain of Youth , but were too cheap to spend the $ 7 . 50 each to get in , so we asked for a tourist map of the town so we could find our way around . We parked at the visitor 's center and the next place we were too cheap to pay admission ( $ 6 ea . ) into was the famous Castillo de San Marcos . We did take the walk all the way around the perimeter of the fort and that was good enough for us . Tonight we are staying at the Longboard Inn , a B & B in New Smyrna Beach ( I wonder where the old one went ? ) It is only a few dollars more expensive compared to the Holiday Inn Express outside of Savannah we stayed at last night , but the breakfast will be leaps and bounds better ( cinnamon bun excepted . ) Started up , went down , back up , back down , up again , still up . ( 59 / 82 ) Claire - centric . In the off island flashbacks we learn that her mother was left in a vegetative state from a car accident she caused . Her mother gets an American doctor as a visitor who shocks Claire by telling her he is her father ( of whom her mother has told her is dead . ) The audience gets shocked to realize that the American doctor is none other than Christian Sheppard , making Claire and Jack half brother and sister . On island Claire concocts a harebrained plan to the catch a migratory bird and attach a message to it to facilitate their rescue . Desmond initially tries to prevent this because he needs to prevent Charlie 's death , but eventually Desmond captures a bird , alone , for her to use . The bird looks suspiciously like a plain ol ' seagull . Red sky at night , sailor 's delight . Red sky in morning , sailor 's take warning . This picture of the sunrise behind the south causeway bridge in New Smyrna Beach foretold the storms that traveled across Florida today . On our drive down to Palm City we managed to stay ahead of the heavy rains and even got to drive the first 30 or so miles with the top down . We did get wet pretty good this afternoon after we got to Donna 's sister 's place . To kill a couple hours Sandy took us for a drive around to see some local sights . When we walked out to the beach near the Hutchinson Island Marriott Resort ? ( where this picture was taken ) and stood for a few seconds admiring the surf , the rain started to come down . We were less than 50 yards from the car and by the time we got back in it we were pretty wet . My back seat companion , Desdemona , decided to dry herself off by rubbing her face along the side and back of my shirt while I sat there . Don 't worry , my wife was in the front seat and thought it was fine , Desi is Sandy 's dog . Started up , went down , back up , still up . Off island we see him reluctantly reunited from his con man father who " stole " his kidney a while back . John 's father is conning a woman and her son finds John to get him to help spoil the plan . As usual John is powerless to stop dear old dad and as a consequence of his actions gets tossed out an eight story building , breaking his back which is how he ended up in the wheelchair . One of the best bits of dialog on the show ever comes from this episode . Locke is in Ben 's cabin holding Ben 's daughter Alex hostage , when unexpectedly , a group of Ben 's friends show up . Locke takes Alex into a closet . Richard Alpert comes into view and Ben says , " I want you to bring me the man from Tallahassee . " After Tom leaves and Locke and Alex emerge from the closet , Locke asks about the man from Tallahassee and asks if that is a codeword . Ben replies that they have no secret codes , although perhaps they should have one for " a man with a gun is holding my daughter hostage in the closet " . Tagged : TDTVS Home Breakfast was in Stuart , Florida with Donna 's sister , her husband and his mother . Their traditional Saturday morning breakfast is eaten out at a cool little place called the Sunset Diner . We got them to deviate from normal today , first by eating with us and secondly by doing it an hour earlier so we could start our trip back . Felt a little weird ordering the Sunset Breakfast , but I managed to eat the two pancakes , two eggs and two sausage links ( I gave Donna the two bacon strips . ) If you tell Google Maps you want to go from Stuart , FL to Aiken , SC it will tell you that it is 505 miles following a route of I - 95 until you get just inside South Carolina , then take US321 to US278 and it should take you less than 8 - 1 / 2 hours ( that is kinda the way we went down , but for some reason it took us almost 2 days . ) We despise I - 95 because it is usually very busy ( it is the shortest way north to south ) and are willing to go to great lengths to avoid it . We took the Florida Turnpike diagonally northwest towards Ocala , joined up with I - 75 to Lake City where we had lunch . We split 3 Krystals , 3 Krystal Chicks and a side salad . Just north of I - 10 we got off the Interstate and Donna guided us on a mixture of county roads , state highways and US highways to home . Through White Springs & Benton , Florida . Through Fargo , Homerville , Argyle , Waycross , Blackshear , Surrency , Glennville and Claxton ( fruitcake anyone ? ) before we stopped in Statesboro , GA for dinner at JaMaN Caribbean Cafe for dinner . I had the Jerk Pork with Black Beans and Rice , Donna had the Chick Pea Soup . From Statesboro we kept north on US301 through Sylvania and into South Carolina . From there we took the ol ' familiar route home of SC3 to SC125 through the bomb plant and up Whiskey Road . If you plot the way we went using Google maps it will tell you it is a little over 600 miles and should take 12 and a half hours . I didn 't keep track of the miles , but the clock was dead on as we left Florida around 9 : 00 AM and we pulled into our driveway about twenty after nine at night . Last Monday night Donna and I raked up the front yard . We usually do it on Sunday or Monday because the city comes around and picks up the yard waste the same day as the trash , which in our case is Tuesday . Judging by the leaves left on the trees we still had at least a couple more rounds of raking to go before this season was over . On last Wednesday a line of thunderstorms passed across the southeast , which we fortunately dodged on the drive down to Florida , but unfortunately it knocked a ton of leaves off the trees in the Aiken area . When we pulled into the driveway last night I felt lucky to be able to pick it out from the rest of the yard , there was a thick blanket of fallen leaves covering everything . So today Donna and I raked the leaves up in the front yard again . The only upside to this is that the storm knocked nearly every remaining leaf off the trees , so we may not have to do this again . " It worked ! The headaches are all gone . " His wife then adds , " You know , you haven 't been exactly a ball of fire in the bedroom these last few years . Why don 't you go see the hypnotist and see if he can do anything for that ? " This time , his wife quietly follows him and there , in the bathroom , she sees him standing at the mirror and saying , " She 's not my wife . She 's not my wife . She 's not my wife ! " Tagged : Jokes Expose Episode 61 of 82 was kind of a departure as we have a show centered around characters that first appeared as background characters in Season 3 . And I have to speculate that from the very beginning of the season the writers knew they were going to do this show . To make us believe that Nikki and Paulo have been around for the whole show their on island flashbacks include them in several re shot scenes from each of the previous seasons . In the end they get buried alive because the survivors think they are dead when they are really just paralized by a bite from the Latrodectus Regina , a fictitious Medusa Spider . Tagged : TDTVS Thanks Axl There are now two Miatas in the parking lot at work . The Assembly Engineering Supervisor finally pulled the trigger . He really liked the new body style Miatas when they came out in 2005 and has talked about getting one since 2006 . Last week he found one he just had to have , a 2006 Grand Touring model in silver with black interior that had 45 , 000 miles on it . Started down , went up , back down , up again , down again , still down . On island Kate wakes up in the woods handcuffed to Juliet and in their little adventure they are drenched in a downpour , have a wrestling match and fall into a mud puddle while avoiding the smoke monster not once , but twice . Loce has disappeared with the Others and in the end Jack , Kate ans Sayid are reunited and head back to the beach camp . Much to the chagrin of kate and Sayid , Jack insists the they take Juliet along . The off island flashback shows Kate trying to contact her mother to find out why she turned her into the Feds . She gets unexpected help from another woman , who unbeknown to her was conned by Sawyer and is carrying his child . Unfortunately for Kate , mom loved her abusive husband , so when Kate thought she was protecting her from him by torching the house he lay passed out in , she was really hurting her . Tagged : TDTVS Identity Crisis On our trip down I - 95 in Florida on last Thursday I saw a most interesting car . I was in the center of the three lanes when I noticed a small black sedan with dark tinted windows approaching fast . In the center of the grill was a shiny oval badge with a large L in the center . The car was a Lexus . It looked smaller than their smallest cars the IS and as it passed by I didn 't recognize it . Now I 'm a car guy , I read practically every major car magazine and check AutoBlog every day , so if Lexus has a car below the IS I would known about it . Once the car was past me I could see the back of the car and right there on the left of the trunk was a chrome Lexus badge , in the center of the rear panel was another oval Lexus logo where they were supposed to be . On the right side of the trunk was the clincher , a chrome IS250 . A neighbor used to have an IS250 and this was definitely not one . I wasn 't real sure what it was , but I had an idea and it was confirmed after I had internet access , it was a Toyota Yaris sedan . Props to the owner for a nearly thoroughly convincing job , he even stayed in the family so to speak . If he had just combined two badges on the back to give the car two letters that weren 't on a known model , like say IC250 , I might have actually though I spotted a prototype . Started down , still down . Sixty - three of eighty - two was a Juliet episode where we find out how she gets to the island ( via the now blown up submarine ) and her failure to accomplish what she was recruited for ( fix the fact that the island women die during pregnancy . ) She arrives back at the Losties beach and faces an inquisition about her " otherness " which she won 't answer . New mother Claire falls ill and Juliet conveniently knows how to help her . In the final scenes we she that it is too convenient as it is all a set up orchestrated by Ben to help her be accepted , not an " Other " , but as Jack tells her , " You 're one of us . " Tagged : TDTVS { field a } Night Before { field b } In my email today I received a politically incorrect Ghetto version of Clement Moore 's ' Twas The Night Before Christmas . I decided to reply with a different version and a quick Googling led me to just the right one . Yesterday I had read a very legal version over on The Rambling Photos Of A Life Lived . I know somebody over on Miata . net made up a Miata themed one that I though about posting here , but I 'll probably wait until next Wednesday for that if I do it . All this got me thinking about how it seems that just about every segment of the population has it 's own variation . Turns out a fellow named Matthew Monroe collected as many as he could find back a couple years ago and came up with 849 ( and that doesn 't include the ghetto or Miata versions . ) Find your favorite to pass amongst yourselves HERE . Started down , still down . Off island , Desmond is in a monastery , but just as he is getting the hang of it , he gets punched by the brother of the woman he left at the alter to become a monk , he get drunk on the monks wine and gets fired . As he is leaving the monastery he bumps into a beautiful woman who needs a litle help , sparks fly . Her name ? Penny . On island he has this elaborate future vision that involves someone parachuting on the island and Charlie getting an arrow in the throat . He is sure that the person who lands on the island is Penny , his long lost love and to have his vision come true he thinks that all the flashes he sees must be allowed to happen , including the arrow in the throat . In the end he saves Charlie and the parachutist isn 't Penny . Related ? Tagged : TDTVS Sightless Gas The title of episode 65 ( of 82 ) is an abbreviation for Date Of Conception and it centers around the pregnant Sun . Did she conceive the baby off island with her extramarital lover or did she conceive on island with the previously sterile husband Jin . Juliet on the spot sees another chance to help out and volunteers to do an ultrasound to find out just when Sun 's baby was conceived . The off island flashback concerns Sun being blackmailed by a woman or she will reveal something that will cause Jin great shame . He has told Sun that his parents are dead , but she manages to track down his father , a poor fisherman from a remote village ( pictured above , who looks like he has a hell of a dental plan ) and will that might seem shameful , what the father reveals is even worse , his mother " had been with many men . " She of course pays off he blackmailer who it turns out is Jin 's mother . Tagged : TDTVS I Led You Here , Sir , For I Am Spartacus While we were riding the tandem to work this morning I saw something or thought of something that I should blog about tonight . Of course I didn 't write it down . On the way home from work the same idea reoccurred , once again I didn 't write it down , so you won 't get to read about it . One of Ron White 's bits contains this quote : “… once you 've seen one woman naked , you … wanna see the rest of ' em naked . " I 'm not sure what he 'd think of these women , or these … Started down , still down . This morning when we got in the car to head off to the woods for a nice little hike , I looked down at the odometer and it was square on eighty - six thousand miles . Because we rode our bike on Friday it must have turned over to that mark as I pulled into the garage on Thursday after work . Started down , went up , back down , still down . In the continuing quest for another TV series to start watching , this weekend we auditioned NUMB3RS . Almost . I like most of the actors in the show , separately , but for some reason not together . Did they cast the the super smart mathematician first and then start thinking about who should play his father ? One of the producers said I have the perfect person , remember the movie Independence Day ? Didn 't Jeff Goldblum play a math genius ? Get that guy who played his dad . Did he have a father in those dinosaur movies ? Number 66 of 82 is Locke - centric that involve short range flashbacks that don 't involve leaving the island . Ben tells Locke that to be really free he needs to kill his father , but he can 't . Fortunately , the Others have files on every 815 survivor and it just so happens that there is someone who has a motive to do the job for Locke . Turns out Lockes 's father is the very same man who conned Sawyer 's parents when he was a kid leading to their murder suicide . Tagged : TDTVS Skynet Precursor ? The engineer in the cube across from me is working on something for the company 's web site that will allow customers to specially configure the valve they want . Right now you can buy stock valves from the site , but you have to know what you want , this new way will walk you through getting the right product for the right application . Internally this thing is referred to as the configurator , I 'm sure marketing will coin some fancier term for it later . He is working with an outside vendor that is doing all the programing and they are not too prompt with their updates and corrections . This morning I heard him discussing his woes dealing with the programmers and the configurator with another engineer in NJ , when I heard him say , " It never gives you the same answer twice . " Maybe this program has a mind of its own and it gives a different answer depending on its mood . Started down , went up , still up . ( 67 / 82 ) Except for the first couple of minutes where we witness a mother dying in childbirth , this episode takes place entirely on island . In flashbacks we meet a young Ben in his early days as a member of the Dharma Initiative . As with nearly all our main characters , Ben has daddy issues , so much so that he arranges to be the one to actually kill him when the original inhabitants of the island rise up and purge Dharma from their home . In current island time Ben takes Locke to an old cabin in the woods that is home to the only person that Ben answers to , the mysterious Jacob . At first Locke can 't see anyone , but he hears him and then gets a flash of a person in the previously silent and empty chair . Tagged : TDTVS Good Thing It Was Last Monday Sixty - eight of eighty - two is Charlie - centric and the title comes something he is told by a newcomer to the island ( parachuted on after her helicopter crashes . ) Naomi tells him that his old band put out a Greatest Hits album after he " died " in the crash of Flight 815 . It also comes from a list he makes of the 5 greatest things that have happened to him so far after he volunteers for a possible suicide mission to shut off a jammer in an underwater Dharma station . Tagged : TDTVS Christmas Eve Tuesday we went to the local Movie Gallery to rent some flicks for watching over this 4 day weekend . We picked out 5 : Kabluey , In Bruges , This Christmas , Adrift in Manhattan and Bonneville . We were off early today and TNT was showing The Bourne Supremacy , the second in the trilogy , so we watched it and then instead of watching one of our 5 rentals we dug into our own collection and watched the third installment , The Bourne Ultimatum . Tomorrow for your Christmas gift from me to you , I 'll post a picture of my right knee . Plus I still owe a post on why we stay in Bed & Breakfasts and for Friday , December 12th from our Florida trip . Started down , went up , back down , still down . Episode 69 of 82 is the Season 3 two hour finale . It is listed as two separate episodes on the DVD , but it was shown on TV as one long show , so it counts as just one . It is Jack centric and off island he appears with a full beard and is distraught to near suicide by his drinking , pain pill addiction and an obituary he finds in a newspaper . When he visits the funeral home for the viewing he enters a room full of empty chairs with a coffin . The funeral director appears and tells him is the only person to show up , is he friend or family ? To which Jack answers , " Neither . " On island he leads all but three of the Losties to a radio tower so they can call for rescue . Those 3 are left behind to ambush a team of Others who are coming to kidnap the women , especially Sun who is pregnant . The ambush almost works , but is finished up by a returning Hurley , Sawyer and Juliet . For the satellite phone to work they need two things to happen , the French Chick 's radio signal must be shut down at the tower and the Other 's jamming station needs to be disabled . Ben intercepts the Losties and tries to manipulate Jack into not calling for rescue , but it just earns him a fist beating . Charlie and Desmond are tasked with turning off the jamming . Charlie knows it is a suicide mission for him because of Desmond 's ability to see the future and sure enough it works out that way , but not before Charlie realizes that maybe the rescue boat is not that after all . The show ends off island with Jack meeting Kate at an airport where he tells her , " We should have never left , we have to go back . " Those tricky producers , instead of the off island scenes being flashbacks they were flashforwards . Tagged : TDTVS Merry Christmas The Cateye LED headlight we bought a couple months ago does a decent job of lighting the road in a 4 foot diameter circle about 20 yards ahead of the bicycle . That , along with the ailing Nite Hawk incandescent headlight filling in the gap between the front tire and the LED spot , forward travel is pretty well illuminated . But turning corners is tricky because the lights are on the handlebars , they only see what 's around the corner once the bike is actually turned . Yesterday morning about two miles into our 6 - 1 / 4 trip to work I turned onto a street that turned out to to be covered with leaves . Because of the lighting setup I didn 't know there were leaves there until we were crossing over them . Coasting at about 10 - 12 miles an hour the front tire slipped out from under me . Before I could even get out the O in OH SHIT , we were down and skidding to a stop on the ground . What took the brunt of the impact was the right front pannier that was loaded with my clothes and I think that saved both of us from a rougher landing . We got up , checked for any serious damage to us or the bike , I reattached the pannier and we pedaled slowly up the street . Because we less than half way to work we opted to turn around , pedal home and then drive the car in . The bike appears fine except for scrapes on the right pedals and the tape on the right side of the handlebars where they skidded on the pavement . The attachment hook on that right front pannier needed to be rebent back into its natural shape . The captain has some road rash on the right knee that makes wearing pants uncomfortable , a sore left thigh that probably got poked with the handlebar and a tender right wrist from hitting who knows what . The stoker got a small cut on her right leg and a fairly sore shoulder . Both probably have bruises that will materialize in a couple days . The right knee of my tights was shredded in the fall so I had to order a set online today . I also ordered another LED headlight , but this one has a helmet light so that I can aim it around corners by looking that way so as to avoid nasty surprises like yesterday . Started down , still down . The first show of Season 4 is number 70 with an even dozen left to go . We will finish watching all the previous shows a week and a day before Season 5 starts . It would have been perfect , finishing up the day before , had ABC not moved the season premier on me . Real time on the island the Losties split into two factions , most follow Jack in his quest to get everyone rescued by the people on the freighter off shore . While some choose to follow Locke to the Others old home , the Barracks , in an effort to avoid the freighter folks because , they like Ben , think that they are coming to kill everyone . Tagged : TDTVS Christmas Shopping I used to do it every year , but have slacked off the last couple . Lazy , I guess . But today I went ahead and did it . Formatted C : and fresh installed XP . Went fairly smoothly , but after chastising a co worker who recently reformatted C : for forgetting to save his Favorites , I remembered that , but for got the more important Firefox Bookmarks file . DOH ! We have finished all five movies we rented and Hancock which came in a red envelope yesterday . We only watched 2 episodes of Weeds which came yesterday too , but the disc went back in the envelope with the remaining four episodes unwatched . Started up , still up . The fog and drizzle of the past 3 days finally cleared and we got in a nice couple mile walk in Hitchcock Woods this morning before the light rain returned . The day was overcast and with all the leaves of the trees the woods seemed flat , no contrast , so I manipulated the image some ( better ? maybe ? ) and when the sun did poke out for a while I discovered that two layers of t - shirts and jeans was overdressed . Could have got by on one layer and shorts . Episode # 74 , The Constant , took place on Christmas Eve in Lost time , missed it by 5 days . When we started rewatching them from the beginning , I started on a Monday with the shows spaced so that we would finish up a couple days before the next season started , maybe I should have scheduled them to line up with island time , Season 1 started on September 22 , 2004 and Season 4 ends on New Year 's Eve 2004 . Maybe next year ( as long as when Ben moved the island in time he just jumped exactly in years and didn 't shift days . ) It is almost a good thing because I have really wanted to stop writing the little episode synopsizes , because Season 4 is where the show got far out there ( if that was even possible for this show that has been water skiing around a school of sharks looking for a ramp ever since the get go . ) The season 's arc was intriguing , we find out that six people got rescued and we find out early on who five of them are ( turns out we knew the sixth , but the producers were being cagey ) and through out the episodes we see those 5 people scattered amongst several separate locations and circumstances and they are only brought together in the season finale . But several of the goings on leading up to the rescue are like jigsaw puzzle pieces that look like they came from a different puzzle . We took the tandem out for a couple three miles as a sort of a shakedown cruise for it and us . Things worked well , mechanical and physical , and if the helmet mounted lamp arrives tomorrow as planned we are going to ride the bike to work on New Year 's Eve . Started up , went down , still down . Watched two more episodes tonight , numbers 76 & 77 of 82 . In the first Ji Yeon the producers got tricky on us . We see Sun giving birth to her baby off island ( the show 's title is the new born daughter 's name ) and we see Jin , her husband rushing around off island frantically buying a giant stuffed panda and trying to get to the hospital . We are so used to flashforwards in Season 4 that we assume these are taking place together , but in the end we find out that Sun is a member of the Oceanic 6 and is a flashforward to post rescue while Jin is really in flashback and he didn 't get rescued , Hurley , Sun and Ji Yeon visit his grave . In the second show we find out that Kevin Johnson is in reality Michael who left the island with his son Walt at the end of Season 2 . He was my least favorite character and I would have really liked to see him shoot himself , but even though he tries , it won 't happen , he can 't die yet . The " island " won 't let him , whatever that means . Started down , went up , back down , still down . Derived from a quote by science fiction author Theodore Sturgeon , who once said , " Sure , 90 % of science fiction is crud . That 's because 90 % of everything is crud . " Oddly , when Sturgeon 's Law is cited , the final word is almost invariably changed to ' crap ' . Tag CloudCholesterol . Adblock Plus . Blipshift . Hiking . OMG ! . Fireworks . Geocaching . Celtics . Whatever . Beer . Dumb Things I 've Done . Honesty . Starwars . Clone Club . Misc Photos . Minimimmo . MLBTV . Party . Pizza . Snake Oil . Walking . Ultimate Drive . Miata Photos . music . Rants . Ice . Holidays . Kidnapping . Gillian Anderson . Masters . Birthdays . Road Trip . Weed . New Orleans . Breakfast . Dogs . Blogging Avoidance . Email . Linux . Florida . Critters . Door . 2011 Vacation . TDZM . Spam . PornA Decade AgoAsheville - Aiken , SC to Asheville , NC . We stopped and mopped up a half dozen PO 's that we didn 't get to when we were in the Greenville a … The Best of 2017

Lady Julian , or Dame Julian ( not quite Saint Julian ) , wrote her Showings ( or " Shewynges " ) in the late 14th century England . She was an anchoress ( not quite a nun ) at the church of St . Julian in Norwich . Not much is known about her outside of her writings , not even her name . She is called Julian after her church . At age 30 , probably in 1373 , she became deathly ill and began to receive visions , revelations , or " showings " that she believed came from God . She wrote them down immediately and developed them years later into a longer text , which became a volume of 86 chapters . It 's humbly written , simple and powerful , and uncannily orthodox as far as I 've read . Her perspective on matters such as creation , the Trinity , Christ 's death and God 's love appears to come from a different angle - and I suppose it would , if it comes from God . Her level of education is not known and was likely not very high ; nevertheless she is known as the first woman published in the English language . She wrote in a dialect of Middle English that resembles our language more than does Chaucer 's Middle English of the same period . But then , Chaucer wrote poetry and liked to show off . I 've taken this excerpt from Julian 's revelation VIII , last paragraph in chapter 16 and the first in chapter 17 . I have modernized the spelling , even though the editor of my copy had already cleaned it up a bit . Not only does Julian 's spelling differ greatly from ours , it differs from her own . She couldn 't seem to spell a word the same way twice . To see what you 're missing , here are the first two lines in the selection , unchanged : - The Second , that Julian 's showings offer at least one good reason not to swallow a belief in the cessation of the apostolic gifts . And no , I 'm not Pentecostal . - The Third , that Julian 's style vaguely reminds me of Hemingway , and I don 't suppose I can help that . But sadly , Hemingway never wrote anything about creation likened to a hazelnut . Thus I saw the sweet flesh dry in my sight , part after part drying with marvelous pain . And as long as any spirit had life in Christ 's flesh , so long suffered he . This long pain seemed to me as if he had been sevennight dead , dying , at the point of out passing , always suffering the great pain . And there I say it seemed as he had been sevennight dead , it specifieth that the sweet body was so discoloured , so dry , so clinging , so deadly , and so piteous as he had been sevennight dead , continually dying . And me thought the drying of Christ 's flesh was the most pain and the last of his passion . And in this drying was brought to my mind this word that Christ said , " I thirst . " For I saw in Christ a double thirst , one bodily and another ghostly . This word was showed for the bodily thirst , and for the ghostly thirst was showed as I shall say after . And I understood by the bodily thirst that the body had feeling of moisture , for the blessed flesh and bones was left all alone without blood and moisture . The blessed body dried all a lone long time with wringing of the nails and weight of the body . For I understood that for tenderness of the sweet hands and the sweet feet by the great hardness and grievous of the nails the wounds waxed wide and the body saddled for weight , by long time hanging and piercing and raising of the head and binding of the crown all baking with dry blood , with the sweet hair clinging the dry flesh to the thorns and the thorns to the flesh drying . Denise N . Baker , ed . , The Showings of Julian of Norwich . New York : W . W . Norton & Company , 2005 . pp . 27 - 28 Read Full Post » 4 Comments » Ernest Hemingway : " Poor Faulkner . Does he really think big emotions come from big words ? He thinks I don 't know the ten - dollar words . I know them all right . But there are older and simpler and better words , and those are the ones I use . " As far as I 'm concerned you can have the Super Bowl and whichever team you like . Me , I choose up sides between Hemingway and Faulkner ( as if one needed to choose ) and it 's Hemingway all the way . I 've just been informed that Daughter Number Three has succumbed to the William Faulkner bug as her mother did years ago , and has enrolled in a seminar toward her thesis as an English major ( you know - you try to raise up your child in the best way you can , you pray for them , you pay for them , you send them to a good school - and you never know which direction they 'll go ) . What went wrong ? Her studying Faulkner could be like somebody around these parts cheering the Giants this evening . In her parents ' living room . On their TV . A person shouldn 't have to choose sides between great authors , you say ; why not enjoy them both ? But that seems to be how it shakes down between Hemingway and Faulkner . Either you like one and not the other or you just haven 't read them both . Sort of like me with football . I had to do an internet search even to find out who was playing , so why all the fuss ? Part of the contest among literary fans may stem from the alleged feud between the authors themselves . If they couldn 't get along , can we expect ourselves to ? Of course not ; no more than you football fans can . So enjoy the fight and be satisfied that the Patriots are the best . Unless you 're from New York , God help you . To help you choose up sides in this clash of titans , read these opening lines from a selection of each . I 'll start with William Faulkner , from the last chapter of The Sound and the Fury ( entitled " Dilsey " in my wife 's Portable Faulkner ) : The day dawned bleak and chill , a moving wall of gray light out of the northeast which , instead of dissolving into moisture , seemed to disintegrate into minute and venomous particles like dust that , when Dilsey opened the door of the cabin and emerged , needled laterally into her flesh , precipitating not so much a moisture as a substance partaking of the quality of thin , not quite congealed oil . She wore a stiff black straw hat perched upon her turban , and a maroon velvet cape with a border of mangy and anonymous fur above a dress of purple silk , and she stood in the door for a while with her myriad and sunken face lifted to the weather , and one gaunt hand flac - soled as the belly of a fish , then she moved the cape aside and examined the bosom of her gown . " There were only two Americans stopping at the hotel . They did not know any of the people they passed on the stairs on their way to and from their room . Their room was on the second floor facing the sea . It also faced the public garden and the war monument . There were big palms and green benches in the public garden . In the good weather there was always an artist with his easel . Artists liked the way the palms grew and the bright colors of the hotels facing the gardens and the sea . Italians came from a long way off to look up at the war monument . It was made of bronze and glistened in the rain . It was raining . The rain dripped from the palm trees . Water stood in pools on the gravel paths . The sea broke in a long line in the rain and slipped back down the beach to come up and break again in a long line in the rain . The motor cars were gone from the square by the war monument . Across the square in the doorway of the café a waiter stood looking out at the empty square . The American wife stood at the window looking out . Outside right under their window a cat was crouched under one of the dripping green tables . The cat was trying to make herself so compact that she would not be dripped on . ' I 'm going down and get that kitty , ' the American wife said . " Ernest Hemingway wrote that line as the epitaph to a love affair . The story hinges on it . And the following line nearly became the epitaph to this blog post : Daughter Number One caught me doing an internet search on Hemingway last August and thought she 'd put a stop to the madness . I had dedicated my first Hemingway post to her earlier in the summer while she was in Africa and under the shadow of snow - capped Kilimanjaro . Then I got inspired and posted on In Another Country , and then Hills Like White Elephants . But the fourth installment got derailed by a daughter 's indignation . I felt shamed into putting it down . However ! As it turns out , blogs like WordPress have a " schedule " function ! One can write something and then set it to post at any month , day and hour . I should have continued , and scheduled it to post safely after she had gone back to school . Hills Like White Elephants , the previous and my favorite of all Hemingway 's stories ( and I think the most economical story ever written ) shows a relationship headed toward a cliff . The man and the woman both have seen the wreckage coming , yet are trapped - in a co - dependent affair , a surprise pregnancy , and somewhere along a railroad line in Spain . The story ends ( or does not end ) with a bitter taste - as if they hate each other - while proclaiming their love . The reader isn 't fooled . I said at the end of the post on Hills that it would lead into another strained relationship , one that would break up before the end of the story . The characters in these two stories are very different ; their settings very different , and in the case of this one ( aptly called The End of Something ) the ending surprises the reader as it does Marjorie , the woman jilted . Nick is a jerk . Let 's get that out first . He shows up in many stories , collectively known ( naturally ) as " The Nick Adams Stories " . Unlike other male characters in Hemingway 's stories , Nick has no dynamic personality . He seems more generic , a flat character , indifferent to his Michigan surroundings and , also unlike other Hemingway stories , Nick reveals nothing of the mind and personality of the author , evident when Hemingway writes about Africa , or Cuba , or Central Europe , or Spain ( with exception of Hills ) . Not Nick . Other than the way he treats his women , Nick is no offspring of Hemingway . Nick ditches Marjorie , a good woman who loves him , for no reason that he can think of but boredom . There doesn 't even appear to be another woman ! Some stories have no ending , and Hemingway proves this in Hills Like White Elephants as well as The End of Something . It 's because no matter how ugly the story , no matter how much I dislike the character , Hemingway tells it so well . There . That 's all there is to it . The story is in the telling . An excerpt - the end of The End of Something : They ate without talking , and watched the two rods and the firelight in the water . " There 's going to be a moon tonight , " said Nick . He looked across the bay to the hills that were beginning to sharpen against the sky . Beyond the hills he knew the moon was coming up . He was afraid to look at Marjorie . Then he looked at her . She sat there with her back toward him . He looked at her back . " It isn 't fun any more . Not any of it . " She didn 't say anything . He went on . " I feel as though everything was gone to hell inside of me . I don 't know , Marge . I don 't know what to say . " " You don 't need to , " she said . She was afloat in the boat on the water with the moonlight on it . Nick went back and lay down with his face in the blanket by the fire . He could hear Marjorie rowing on the water . He lay there for a long time . He lay there while he heard Bill come into the clearing , walking around through the woods . He felt Bill coming up to the fire . Bill didn 't touch him , either . Leave a Comment » The hills across the valley of the Ebro were long and white . On this side there was no shade and no trees and the station was between two lines of rails in the sun . Close against the side of the station there was the warm shadow of the building and a curtain , made of strings of bamboo beads , hung across the open door into the bar , to keep out flies . The American and the girl with him sat at a table in the shade , outside the building . It was very hot and the express from Barcelona would come in forty minutes . It stopped at this junction for two minutes and went to Madrid . " I have probably read Hemingway 's short story Hills Like White Elephants about twenty times , and I don 't think I 'll ever stop . Thankfully , it 's only four pages . The coffee barely cools off . This is another of Hemingway 's stories within a story . It begins in medias res , in the middle of things , and doesn 't really end . We never learn the names of the characters , nor where they 've been , nor really where they 're going . They are identified only as " the American and the girl with him " ( he also calls her Jig , but that doesn 't help much ) . These are anonymous characters , the kind we 'd meet briefly if on a trip ourselves , perhaps overhearing them at a table nearby . And the male character doesn 't even appear to resemble the author , as many of Hemingway 's characters do . The setting is the café of a train station along the Ebro Valley in northeastern Spain . We do know where they are headed ( but not really where they 're going ) because the train they await will come from Barcelona and go on to Madrid . This story is a perfect lesson in tension - as well as conflict , a necessary ingredient - but tension even within that . Something alarming has happened before the story begins , and something explosive awaits . We never find out what - but we can surmise from the little we are told that the girl has discovered that she is pregnant , and the American wants to solve that . The dialogue too gives a perfect lesson in the power of the simple pen . Hemingway leaves out more than he includes , and this adds unexploded dynamite to the story . The American wants to talk about terminating the problem ; the girl does not . He wants them to be happy again , he says . She changes the subject ; he presses her toward a solution . She tells him " please " to stop talking . He backtracks : he doesn 't want her to go through with the operation if she feels that way - he says . " I 'll scream , " she says . They drink cool beers in the summer heat and try new drinks , waiting in a stalemate for the train . What will happen ? What should happen ? Will they both board the train ? If so , will they part company in Madrid ? Will she maneuver to get him on the train and then disappear as it leaves the station ( my preferred scenario ) ? Whatever happens , this couple is poison together . ' What should we drink ? ' the girl asked . She had taken off her hat and put it on the table . The woman brought two glasses of beer and two felt pads . She put the felt pads and the beer glass on the table and looked at the man and the girl . The girl was looking off at the line of hills . They were white in the sun and the country was brown and dry . I 'll leave it here at the beginning - the beginning of the end for this couple - a snapshot within a snapshot within a larger story that we 'll never know . Find it in your local library , or google it on the web . The closing line , however , sets up the two for a dysfunctional future , if they even make it out of the station : " ' I feel fine , ' she said . ' There 's nothing wrong with me . I feel fine . ' " In many of his stories we see a story within . Here we have a snapshot of two patients in a military hospital in Milan during World War I . An American officer , wounded in the leg , narrates . He is serving on the Italian side , presumably before U . S . entry into the war , and is befriended by an Italian major who is wounded in the hand . Both men come frequently to the hospital for therapy , which is aided by experimental machines . The major 's relative patience teaching Italian grammar to the American contrasts with his unexpected outburst at the American 's talk of marriage . This becomes explained later ; his young wife has recently died of pneumonia , without warning , and the major doesn 't know how to handle his grief . The segment comes about three - fourths of the way through the story . The major , who had been a great fencer , did not believe in bravery , and spent much time while we sat in the machines correcting my grammar . He had complimented me on how I spoke Italian , and we talked together very easily . One day I had said that Italian seemed such an easy language to me that I could not take a great interest in it ; everything was so easy to say . ' Ah , yes , ' the major said . ' Why , then , do you not take up the use of grammar ? ' So we took up the use of grammar , and soon Italian was such a difficult language that I was afraid to talk to him until I had the grammar straight in my mind . The major came very regularly to the hospital . I do not think he ever missed a day , although I am sure he did not believe in the machines . There was a time when none of us believed in the machines , and one day the major said it was all nonsense . The machines were new then and it was we who were to prove them . It was an idiotic idea , he said , ' a theory like another ' . I had not learned my grammar , and he said I was a stupid impossible disgrace , and he was a fool to have bothered with me . He was a small man and he sat straight up in his chair with his right hand thrust into the machine and looked straight ahead at the wall while the straps thumbed up and down with his fingers in them . ' He cannot marry . He cannot marry , ' he said angrily . ' If he is to lose everything , he should not place himself in a position to lose that . He should not place himself in a position to lose . He should find things he cannot lose . ' ' He 'll lose it , ' the major said . He was looking at the wall . Then he looked down at the machine and jerked his little hand out from between the straps and slapped it hard against his thigh . ' He 'll lose it , ' he almost shouted . ' Don 't argue with me ! ' Then he called to the attendant who ran the machines . ' Come and turn this damned thing off . ' " Leave a Comment » Then they began to climb and they were going to the East it seemed , and then it darkened and they were in a storm , the rain so thick it seemed like flying through a waterfall , and then they were out and Compie turned his head and grinned and pointed and there , ahead , all he could see , as wide as all the world , great , high , and unbelievably white in the sun , was the square top of Kilimanjaro . And then he knew that there was where he was going . " - from The Snows of Kilimanjaro Often I sit by the kitchen window with a cup of coffee and read a story by Ernest Hemingway , to remind myself that good short - story writing still exists - at least it did until 1961 . His sparse , direct style , known for what he left out as much as for what he included , holds my interest . Some consider his work manly - whatever that means - and unlike the wordy , flowery prose of William Faulkner . Either you like Faulkner or you like Hemingway , and for good reason : they didn 't like each other ; each gossiped in print about the other 's writing . Hemingway wrote about strong topics like death , or broken relationships . His stories often included alcohol , or guns . " You do know that he committed suicide ? " my wife has said to me , more than once . My wife is a Faulkner fan . The above quote from The Snows of Kilimanjaro can be found on the last page of the story , and describes the fevered delirium of a dying man in a cot , in a tent , stranded in the wilderness of Africa . It takes a second reading of the page to discover when reality ends and when his death begins . But in his mind it 's a happy ending as the rain and the snows cool his fever . This diversion halfway around the world is brought to you on behalf of Daughter Number One , who is presently in Africa to visit two friends in the Peace Corps . After an initial day with Rachel in Ethiopia ( where the coffee is terrific , she said ) , she flew off to Jenny Beth in Tanzania and to rendezvous with a third friend , Natalie . She 'll return to Ethiopia and stay with Rachel for a couple of weeks before coming home . Here 's the full text of an e - mail from a week ago , and we haven 't heard a word since : Subject line : " I 'm in Tanzania with Jenny Beth and Natalie . " Body of e - mail : " That 's all . The coffee isn 't as good here . We are at Lake Victoria and will go to Kilimanjaro soon ! "

As of 4 / 1 / 16 , I am still alive ! If you are reading this , so are you . Let 's do something to remain that way . I 've laughed more in the past couple days then just about any other time in my life . Well , I take that back , I can remember many many laughing fits . . . many . . . but these past couple days with my new wigs has been right up there in the top 10 best and silliest moments of my life . The pink wig and the white lady blabla wig have been part of the collection for a couple weeks now , but there has been some recent additions that are too over the top , too ludicrous to try and describe . . . although you know me by now , so I 'll try my darnedest . A couple years ago , Ted was a hippy pimp for Halloween . Part of his wonderful ensemble was this giant blondish / greyish scraggly , did I mention huge , wig . I would say it extends a foot in every direction . After putting on dark red lipstick and some gaint earring 's , thanks to Gina , I went to work in this wig . Needless to say , there were the looks , the stares , the man running into the wall . It was maybe the hardest I 've ever laughed on the inside . . . and all day long . The next night , Ted put it on and just happened to have the unshaven scraggly beard to match . He could not have looked more like a burn out . . . cheech would have been proud . As many of you know , Rob has a natural fro and the other day I picked up a matching girl fro wig . So there we were , fro family robinson , out for a night on the town . People were in shock , again with the stares , the awkward side glances and the unabashed gawks . People were much more brazen and vocal . . . it was after all the mall , at night , which = teeeeeeeeenagers . My favorite moment was when a group of about 10 pre - teen to teen girls saw us come off an escalator . They asked Ted if his fro was real as they giggled away , they then asked me if mine was . I ripped it off my head and said . . . I can 't even remember , but something to the effect of " what do you think ? " . They screamed in what I think was a combination of horror , fright and silliness . One giant collective scream , unlike I 've ever heard before . That scream certainly cleared our meager atmosphere and is now traPosted by I totally forgot to mention how a coworker , Kendra , who has gorgeous locks of long , thick , golden ( although now red ) curls didn 't hesitate for one minute to chop it off and make it into a wig for me . That was very touching . I had a similar offer from the long haired guy who flirts with me at our local gas station . . I don 't know your name dude , but rock on with your selfless self ! Is the cutest one year old currently on the earth . Just in case any of you were wondering , I though I 'd put it out there . I 've gone on and on about my own kiddo 's , so here 's a shout out to Colleen and her gift to humanity . Thanks for reproducing ! As I told her when she was trying to conceive , the world needs more people like her to make more people like her . Well done Colleen ! I wonder what she 'll be doing in 23 years . Hopefully I 'll be able to call her up and ask her myself : ) Ted took the family sans Maddy and me to New Hampshire for the day . I can 't travel far from civilization these days , so I stayed behind . After work , I picked Maddy up and took her for a walk around Quinsigamond Lake . . . perfecto ! When the rest of the family came home , Charly brought presents in for me and Maddy . . . soooo sweet . The girls hugged and kissed and loved each other . We went on with our night , got the girls to bed , cleaned up from dinner and all of a sudden it turned into our own time . I came into my bedroom and Charly had tucked the teddy bear she brought me neatly under the covers . That little bear peaking out from the sheets was put there strait from Charly 's heart . She knew it would make me smile at some point later when she wouldn 't even be around . . . it did more then that , it did more then I have words for . All the windows are open and before I have time to enjoy the physical feeling of this break from the hot summer sun , my mind takes me instantly and simultaneously to all the unexpected cool summer breezes of my past . Those mornings on the river in Colorado , so crisp . We would put our wet suits on , climb in to our boats and train all day in the April snow melt of the Rockies . Backpacking trips with Ted in the White mountains , I would always wake up surprised at how chilly it was having sweat so hard the day before while hiking to that perfect spot . . sometimes a nook right off the trail . . . sometimes a bluff overlooking a never seen before valley . The early summer breezes of my childhood when I 'd stand on the block at a swim meet waiting for the gun to signal my frigid jump into the pool . Could all these memories be from one life ? I feel like I 've had many opportunities , many lives , many interpretations of the same phenomenon and they always leave the exact same familiar smile on my ever changing face . So I may have vascular tumors growing throughout my body right now , but what really scares me are spiders . I 'm more afraid of those eight legged masters of fear then I am of cancer . We used to have spiders all over the exterior of our house . They would wait until night and then creep their way down to lay in ambush near the lighted windows and doors . When you walked in the door , they 'd drop on your head . When you 'd let the dog in , they 'd be in her fur . Every night that I came home after dark I had to face those damn spiders . Sometimes I 'd call Ted and have him open the door if he was home first . But then there were those nights . . . those dreaded nights when I had picked up the kids , gone grocery shopping and come home to an empty house . That meant many many trips through the door at night with bags and kids and other obstacles that made one linger at the door . The spiders . Would drop . On my head . On my shoulders . In the bags . Spiders . I called an exterminator and he sprayed lovely chemicals that made the spiders die . I love that man a little . He doesn 't know it , but I would have payed him a million dollars for the relief he gave me . Too bad he can only work his magic on the exterior of houses . Instead of Ted taking his weekly jaunt out to get Robby , I drove out to get him . Partially to have the excuse to listen to some music and have a little time by myself , partially because Maddy 's sick and it breaks my heart to hear her call for me knowing that I can 't go near her since I 'm susceptible to everything and partly because I just love hanging out with the boy . He had no idea that I had just shaved my head and his reaction was priceless . He loves the mini mohawk . . . . I knew he would . I was so upset when I realized that my hair wouldn 't last until today , I wanted him to have the first go at it . Oh well , we had fun yesterday all the same . We took the long way home . Rob put on Dillan and the sky gave us a beautiful setting in which to relax and enjoy the music . I can not overstate how cool I think it is that he lives for the same music I absolutely needed to get through adolescence . Robby and I have always been close , we get each other . On our way home , he was pointing out wisps of fog and clouds that made grey look so alive while I was picking out lyrics that I 've had in the back of my mind for well over twenty years , lyrics that make you realize that there are depths to human emotion that have to be extracted and packaged by people like Dillan for people like me and Rob to get the most out of life . . . . and we do ! It 's been a long time since humans needed hair . If you really think about it , hair is a pretty silly thing to have on your head . How much money do you spend every year on cuts , dyes , brushes , shampoos , rinses , clips , gels . . . you name it and they 'll sell it to you . In the end , the majority of people are insecure about their hair . . . hence all the money to try and get it to look good . All the same , I wasn 't very excited to come home tonight and get shorn with the same clippers that used to keep our dog from getting dreads . Ted offered to buy brand new special corrie clippers , but I declined . I decided that this was just another step down dignity lane and it was fitting to be shaved with dog clippers . When we got home , Ted took a long hot shower . Maybe he was delaying the inevitable task at hand , maybe he was lost in a steamy day dream without balding cancer people . When I heard the running water stop , I knew it was time to say goodby to my hair and hello to my scalp . Ted emerged from the bathroom , clippers in hand and totally bald . I burst into tears , it was so unexpected and sweet . I was very moved by his act of solidarity , it made the moment light . . . not at all unbearable . So there we stood , me and Ted and the girls with grandma taking pictures of shave fest 2010 . I had him leave a mini mohawk just for fun . I don 't mind it so much . As I 've found throughout this whole experience , each of my dreaded events , whether it 's been surgery , chemo , hair loss , crappy ass food , is always worse when it lay in the future then in the past . Now I get to have fun with my wiggies . . . just got a white bob that I can draw on . . . how fun is that ! I wonder if I spay my hair with aquanet , would it stay stuck to my scalp for the next eight months or so ? Every day , there 's more hair on my pillow . It 's as though I get up but bits and pieces of me stay in the past , refuse to move on with me . Body parts frozen away at Dana , hair en route to europe , dignity being autoclaved from the scope at umass . It 's a challenge to walk in the same shoes that once fit a healthy confident woman in the prime of her life . They still fit , but they carry a balding , mutilated cancer patient . On the bright side , Charly and I have major fun plans for my bald head including but not limited to stickers , washable markers and shaving cream wigs . I had my last " treatment " the day before yesterday and am starting feel what 's now becoming the familiar side effects . The tight throat , mild nausea and fatigue . Last week , I was letting all those things that lay in wait at the periphery of my focus take hold , grow deep routes inside of my happiness . I had to let it go and start over , get a whole new world with a brand new sun that has never cast light on the weeds of misfortune . After my treatment , I felt much stronger , I felt , once again , that I had done something , anything to stay here for my loves . Should we go to the beach ? The cabin ? hiking ? swimming ? Nah , let 's go to the ER and get that bright red blood spewing forth from an orifice which shall rename nameless checked out . I haven 't started the chemo that makes you bleed yet , so this episode was particularly worrisome . When I called Dana and described the situation , the nurses words were , " oh jeez , get to an ER now " , which made it all the more comforting . So off we went , not sure if this was from chemo side effects , from a metastasis to the GI tract or from something unrelated to cancer ( although when you try on my shoes , the snugness of fit is due at least in part to cancer ) . They ran a couple tests and decided to perform a colonoscopy . joy . with a stay overnight in the hospital for the prep . joy squared . If you 've ever had the pleasure of prepping for one of these lovely , integrity stealingprocedures , you 've also known the pleasure of MoviPrep . It 's a Peg350 wash of the entire GI . Good times with PEG . I 'll never look at my crystal drops the same again ( we use various PEGs to make proteins crystallize ) . In the end ( pun intended ) , everything turned out to be fine . The bottom line ( again , sorry ) , was that there was an internal hemorrhoid just waiting for the right time to show it 's glory . Thanks alot you A hole ! I was dreading today , the day I chopped off my hair . . all 21 inches of it . The funny thing is , I was growing it so long to donate to locks of love . . . little did I know that I was being drafted into that unwitting army at the same time was I volunteering for the other side . I decided to make a partial wig for myself since I had so much hair . It 's ridiculously expensive , but I know it 'll feel like home , or some place familiar when I 'm walking alone in baldland . Until I get it , I have my fluorescent pink Cleopatra wig and my " I 'm trying to look like I don 't have cancer and am really normal like you " wig . It may only stay in my head for another week or so , but the couple inches they so generously left behind are much appreciated . After the carnage was cleared away and Charly had a chance to see me , styled and all , she said " you look even more like mommy " . I love that child . Maddy also was fine with it , she just looked up at me and said " they take your hair off mommy ? " followed by a big hug . I think she 's getting used to " them " taking parts of mommy off . Hopefully we 'll get a little reprieve ! Tomorrow I 'm getting it chopped . I think I 'll miss my hair more then my boob . Tonight in the shower , my fingers took extra long to run from my scalp to the ends of my hair . There 's a distinct sound that long wet hair makes when dropped on your back in the shower , you can feel the weight while hearing the gentle slap . I 'll be bald for almost a year and then it 'll grow back slowly . . . . I 'll never have long hair again . Poor me , poor bald one booby me . I 'm actually in a good mood , at peace , pretty calm and feeling good . I think I owe it to Robby tonight , he could NOT be sillier . . . and just in time . Having cancer is not always silly and fun . Sometimes there are dark moments totally devoid of light , as if a black hole suddenly appeared on an otherwise non - collapsed sun filled day . You can almost see those rays of light being stolen from you and the faster you chase after them , the closer into the abyss you 're pulled . I was on my way in , pretty deep last night when Ted reached his hand in and pulled me out . I don 't know what surface he was standing on , but it was strong enough to hold us both up . He reminded me that I can do things right now to help my babies , and for me , that 's the only thing that matters . I 'm on my way back to the silliness . Later today , I 'm putting together a photo montage that will be entitled " fun with cancer " . There 'll be everything from silly wigs , to fake boob contests to sexy bathing suit displays . . . . And here we go again , are you guys sick of me talking about how freaking cute they are ? Right now maddy is buck naked on the leather chair watching Max and Ruby and Charly is laying on the futon in animated heaven . I am doing everything I can to stick around for those little beauties , but in the end , it 's out of hands . I do have control over right now though , and I can fill it so deeply with love that surely it 'll overflow into the future and keep them strong no matter what . I touched Maddy 's face the other day and she looked up at me with a smile . Such a simple moment that might otherwise go unnoticed in a typical busy life . That 's one more smile in the world , one more light hearted moment that wouldn 't be here if I had chosen the road more followed . Charly 's neck screamed out to me to be tickled and I was here to do the job . I could feel her laughter through my skin , into my bones until it reached my heart . How could that be a bad thing ? How could life be bad right now ? A tumor by any other name would metastasize so frequently ? It really is depressing folks , so I don 't know why I do it . But like the mangled pieces of metal , that used to be nothing more then a monthly payment , politely moved over to the side of the highway so as to not interrupt other people who still have lives , the literature always temps me to take a peek . When I do , I see bodies thrown from the cars . . they most have not been wearing their seat belts . Those cars most have flipped at least 4 or 5 times . . . surely there are no survivors . These are no ordinary accidents , most people have never seen anything so gruesome , so how could I not look ? It 's a bit demoralizing , but I 'll get over it . . time will make sure of that . I 'm considering putting a governor on my pubmed access ! So there I am , feeling fantastic day one , day two and half of day three out from my first chemo treatment when boom , my throat swelled up , my chest became congested , I started experiencing shooting pains in my chest and down my femurs . I looked at the list of possible side effects and they basically lay them out in that order . I 'm feeling much better now , so it was really just 24 hours of feeling like total crap ( I say as I jinx myself into 6 full months of misery ) . I add the anti - VEGF in my next round . I can 't decide if out of all the possible side effects listed , I 'm least looking forward to rectal bleeding or vomiting a substance that looks like coffee grounds . . . . . . . WTF science , why is it taking you so freaking long to figure this sht out ? I guess it makes sense when I think of the projects that we work on for 5 , 6 , 7 years to get a PhD . . . the conformation of one protein . One stinking protein at a time is not going to cut it ! OK , I have to stop complaining because my family is harassing me to stop communicating with all of you loves and start watching cheesy TV with them . Night night : ) I 've met the most amazing people because of this ridiculous cancer . Some are new to it like me and others have been living their lives for quite a while , the elders ( eventhough some are younger then me ) , the wise ones with some kept secret that will keep us all alive forever . Maybe it 's the cod liver oil , maybe it 's the vitamin D , maybe they brush their teeth with their left hand in the morning and their right hand at night . . . maybe . Yesterday my friend B was in town for her monthly chemo treatment and we decided to make a day of it . After her infusion we jumped in the car and headed to the north shore . We walked around Rockport , had lunch high up on a balcony overlooking the moss covered rocks at low tide . We headed down the coast to Singing beach where we felt the warm sand and cold water coalesce over our chemical feet . We took ridiculous pictures of our prosthetic boobs side by side on the floor board of the car . We were both grateful for the warm weather and friendship . Stranger things have brought stranger people together . . . as for this group , I 'll take um : ) I feel pretty damn good about my decision to do chemo ( I 'm writing this to the future Corrie who may develop a different perspective on the matter . . . . remember . . . happy ? ? ) . When Ted and I parked the car at Dana , neither one of us were in any hurry to get out . Up until this point , it 's been somewhat in the background . Even with the surgeries , I was just a patient in a bed , not a shhhhhhh cancer patient . From the second we opened the car doors , it felt like gravity had married some stronger force which all of a sudden pulled me straight into cancer . It 's not a bad thing , it 's a reality thing . At the crack of dawn , the cancer patients queue up for their blood work , their consult and then their infusions . I was the only one there with a full head of hair , the new kid on the block . The healthy looking one , the healthy feeling one . Surely I didn 't belong , clearly I should leave the seats open for the " real " cancer patients . They all looked at me with such empathy , such understanding . They knew it was just a matter of time until I took my seat right next to them , which I gladly did , and engage in small talk . It 's a little different there , small talk has to do with the weather and chemo and life and death all rolled into one heartfelt sentence between strangers . The infusions weren 't bad , the Gemzar burned , but the abraxane was effortless . Next time we add the VEGF monoclonal , Avastin . As we were leaving , I gave into a pity party replete with " I 'm so young " confetti streamers and " my babies need me " helium balloons . It didn 't last long though and soon all was right with the world . . . . in other words , I spent the day with those angels and their daddy and grandma and brother . I can always bring myself back to the present when I realize that that 's were I am . The stronger I am right now , the more I can teach my kids how to be strong in the face of adversity , and more importantly , how to be silly no matter what !

Njàbò , my only child , my daughter , walks with me . She is as old as the forest , while I was born but three and a half decades ago . Our ears prick up at the sound of drums . We scan the sky and spot a column of smoke to the northwest . We run toward it . The ground trembles under our feet . The settlement is ringed by rotting carcasses . Their faces are mutilated , but the meat is left uneaten . These are the bodies of our people . I weep , but Njàbò is past tears . She sheds her calf body . Njàbò the great , the wise , the ancient thunders with anger ; her flapping ears rouse the wind . Njàbò charges the human settlement , trumpeting her fury . Everywhere there is ivory , carved into jewellery and other trinkets , evidence of the mutilation of our people . She squeezes the life out of the humans and pounds them on the ground . The humans and their houses are crushed beneath the powerful feet of the giant Njàbò . She kicks down the fireplaces and tramples the ashes . She screams her triumph . Njàbò 's shouts go on for hours . Our scattered tribe gathers from around the world to the site of Njàbò 's victory . Throughout all of this I have been weeping , from pride and awe at Njàbò 's beauty , from horror at the deaths of both elephants and humans , from relief , from grief , from sadness and loneliness at my child 's independence . And , like too many nights of the past eight years , I wake , quietly weeping , from this dream that is always the same . Waters is sitting on Cleo 's chest , nuzzling her nose , purring . Cleo 's cheeks are crusty from dried tears . She guesses that she 's been awake for two hours or so . She 's been lying on her back - motionless , eyes wide open - trying to forget the dream and the emotions it brings . The skylight above the bed reveals that dawn is breaking . She should get up , get started . She stretches . It sends Waters leaping from her chest and out through the beaded curtain in the doorway . Cleo slides out of bed , two king - size futons laid side - by - side on the floor . She looks at her lovers in the diffused early - morning light : a domestic ritual that marks the beginning of her day . Patrice kisses her on the forehead . " Then go back to bed . Let me make breakfast . " Again , that smile . She feels herself melting , almost going to sleep in his arms . For a few seconds , Cleo is confused , does not know where she is . Has she been sleeping ? And then she remembers . This is the girls ' bedroom , the girls ' bed . The curtains are drawn , the door is ajar . What time is it ? She 'd quietly snuck into the girls ' room after Patrice had come home , careful not to wake them up . She 'd crawled in between them and was calmed by their sweet , eight - year - old smells . She had only meant to lie down until Patrice called breakfast . Where were the girls now ? The kitchen is deserted and wiped clean . Indefatigable Patrice , again . No - one leaves a kitchen as spotless as he does . She looks at the clock : it 's nearly half past noon . She can 't remember the last time she slept in . Last night , the dream was more vivid than usual ; it drained her . Her mouth feels dry . She gets orange juice from the fridge and gulps it down . She wanders from room to room . She stops in the bathroom to splash her face . The quiet is strange . She usually spends the morning and early afternoon tutoring the girls . West must be at the university , Assaad at The Smoke Shop . Patrice , she notices , is sleeping . Waters is curled up on the pillow next to his head . Where are the girls ? And then she remembers : Tamara is back . She must have taken them out somewhere . " Clee , love , come . " Tamara , naked as she almost always is around the house , waves her over . Cleo is enchanted by her beauty , more so all the time . Cleo missed her while she was away . Cleo settles in Tamara 's lap . Tamara is so tall that Cleo 's head only reaches up to her neck . Tamara 's poised nudity makes Cleo feel frumpy and unattractive , especially now that she notices the rumpled state of her own clothes , slept - in all morning . The feeling evaporates as Tamara squeezes her , digging her nose into Cleo 's neck , breathing her in . " I haven 't been back long enough to stop missing you , Clee . There were no other women on the expedition . " Tamara pulls off Cleo 's T - shirt , cups her sagging breasts . As always , Cleo is fascinated by the chiaroscuro of the soft pink of Tamara 's skin against her own dark brown . " They were like little boys , nervous at having their clubhouse invaded by a female , at having their secret handshakes revealed , protective of their toys . " " Tam … Where are the girls ? " How could Cleo have thought that Tamara had taken the girls out ? Of all of them , Tamara was the least interested in the girls . She let them crawl all over her when they felt like it and was unfalteringly affectionate with them , but she never set aside time for them . She was vaguely uneasy with the idea of children . " West took them to school . At breakfast , he talked about his lecture , to warm up . His class today is about the symbolic use of animals in politics . One of his case studies is about African elephants . You should have seen Njàbò ! She got very excited and asked him tons of questions . She wanted to go hear West at school , and he thought it would be a treat for both of them . Especially seeing as how you seemed to need the sleep . " Tamara runs her fingers through Cleo 's hair and says , " Doesn 't Sonya always do what Njàbò wants ? Sometimes I think all of us are always doing what Njàbò wants . She 'll grow into a leader , that one . She 'll trample anyone in her path . " Cleo is momentarily reminded of her dream , but she makes an effort to push it away . She jokes , " Wanna play hooky and go out for lunch ? At The Small Easy ? " Eight years ago , Cleo gave birth to Njàbò . Most people thought that the girl looked like Patrice , especially because of her dark skin - like Patrice 's , darker than Cleo 's - but she could just as easily have been fathered by West or Assaad . The five of them had agreed not to do any tests to find out . Assaad was Sonya 's biological father and her legal guardian . She 'd been the daughter of their friends Karin and Pauline . Both women had died in a car accident the day after Njàbò was born . Sonya was three months older than Njàbò . A few days later , a grey - brown cat jumped through the kitchen window while Patrice was preparing breakfast . The cat drank water from a dirty bowl in the sink , and then refused to leave . The family adopted him and called him Waters . At The Small Easy , while waiting for their order , Tamara goes to the washroom . A few seconds after she gets up , a man wearing a denim jacket materializes in her seat . One moment the seat is empty ; the next , the man is there . Cleo is seized with a paralyzing fear . The man is short , almost like a child , but his face is that of an old man . His wrinkled skin is a washed - out greyish brown . He grabs both her hands in his . She feels his fingers , like vises , almost crushing the bones of her hands . " Do not fear your dreams . Do not fear Njàbò . You , too , are one of us , daughter . Believe in Njàbò . Follow her . " He vanishes as inexplicably as he appeared . Still numb with fear , all Cleo can focus on is how the old man hadn 't spoken in English , but in what she assumes must have been an African language . How had she understood him ? When Cleo and Tamara come back from lunch , the girls are still out with West . There 's a message on the voicemail . He 's taking them out downtown ; there 's a new Brazilian restaurant he 's curious about , and then they 'll go the Museum of Civilizations . He says he 'll pose in front of the paintings and sculptures and have the girls try to figure out his ancestry . His favourite joke . When asked about his roots , West never gives the same answer . A mix of Cree and Russian ? Hawaiian and Korean ? Tibetan and Lebanese ? He looks vaguely Asian , but his features don 't conform to any specific group . He loves to confuse people , to meddle with their expectations . His odd wit has always charmed Cleo . She goes down to her sanctum . In the basement of their house , she 's set up a studio . There 's a small window high up on the wall , but she keeps it covered , lets no natural light in . She burns scented candles and incense . She 's comfortable painting only in the dim , flickering light , breathing in a rich blend of odours . Full , harsh light makes her feel exposed . The dim candlelight , the smoke , and the smells all contribute to a sense of being enveloped , of being in a cocoon , a womb , in a world where only she and her imagination exist . Sometimes , like today , she smokes a pipeful of hash , not only to relax but also to enrich the room 's aroma . Today , she needs to relax . Had she hallucinated that man in the restaurant ? She can still remember the feel of his rough hands against her smooth skin . His smell : like damp soil . How could he know about her secret dream ? She holds the smoke in her lungs as long as she can before blowing it out . She wants the hash to wash out her fears and anxieties . She wants to paint . The hash is strong . She feels its effects within a few seconds , a soothing combination of numbness , purpose , and timelessness . She loses herself in the canvas . She lights a few fresh candles and returns to the canvas . She finds that she has painted a scene from her dream , one of the most violent moments . She had never before let herself depict such brutality . The giant elephant , who , in her dreams , is somehow her daughter Njàbò , is trampling humans beneath her enormous feet . She is throwing a mangled man in the air with her trunk . Cleo notices that she has painted words in the background , including " NJÀBÒ " - but also other strange words that she has never heard of before , such as " MÒKÌLÀ " and " MOKIDWA . " Cleo turns , but her daughter doesn 't wait to hear the answer . Cleo hears her rush up the stairs and shut the door . Does she know that Cleo has no answer ? Cleo isn 't surprised that Njàbò knows about her recurring dream . She 's scared , and what scares her most , somehow , is that lack of surprise . After the midwife had left , the whole family had slipped into bed with Cleo and the new baby . Cleo had immediately fallen asleep , exhausted from the long labour . She had slept deeply , had not remembered any dreams , but had woken knowing the baby 's name . " I think I want to call her Njàbò , " it was an odd - sounding word that meant nothing to her , " but I don 't know why . " Patrice , who had been devastated by the elephant tragedy and had read many books to assuage his grief , recognized it . The last elephant , a female African forest elephant on a reserve in the Congo , had died nearly a year before Njàbò 's birth . Poaching , loss of habitat due to increasing human encroachment , spiteful slaughters in backlash against conservationists , and disease had finally taken their toll . All efforts at cloning had failed and were still failing . " I know ! " Patrice had said . " Njàbò … Njàbò is a mythical creature from Africa : the mother of all elephants . A giant with enormous tusks who appears whenever the elephants need a strong leader . All elephants gather around her when she calls . It 's a beautiful name . A strong name for our strong girl . I like it . " Everyone had agreed . Cleo had pushed aside the question of how the name had come to her . It was one of those unsolvable riddles best left alone . She avoids Njàbò . She has begged off mothering . Tamara , Patrice , West , and Assaad now share the task . Cleo , after all , has taken on the bulk of that work for the past eight years , devoted her time and life to raising Njàbò and Sonya , to taking care of the house while the four of them pursued their careers . There had been that book with Tamara , five years ago , when the girls were three years old . The paintings , the shows , the tours . Of course , they say to Cleo , she should explore that aspect of her life again , let someone else take care of the house , the girls . Tonight , the house is quiet . The whole family has gone for a walk in the park . It rained all day , and finally the cloud cover broke to give way to a warm evening . Cleo had agreed to go , but begged off at the last minute . Assaad , especially , insisted that she come along , to spend time with the family . But in the end she 'd stayed alone in the house . Well , not quite alone . Waters follows her as she walks into the living room . She takes down a big art book from a shelf built into the wall . Cleo sits on the floor ; Waters sits in front of her , purring and rubbing his head on her knee . She opens the book at random and remembers . The book , The Absence of Elephants , was a worldwide success . Trying to exorcize her dream , which she never talked about , Cleo had created a series of elephant paintings . Some were scenes from her dreams , but not all . She had used no photographic references . The results ranged from photorealism to evocative abstractions . She painted in the evenings when the girls were asleep in bed . The whole family was extremely excited about her paintings . Patrice and Njàbò , especially , spent hours looking at them , but it was Tamara who had been inspired by them . Tamara had sold her publisher on the idea : an art book combining Cleo 's paintings with photos of forests and plains where elephants used to thrive , of human constructions that now stood in areas that were once habitats for elephants . There would be no words : the pictures , especially in the wake of the global desolation over the extinction of the elephants , would speak in all languages , allowing the book to be marketed worldwide without the cost of translation . Tamara would go to Africa , India , and anywhere else where any elephants - even woolly mammoths - had once lived , hunting with her camera the ghosts of the dead creatures . The Absence of Elephants led to gallery bookings . Cleo 's paintings , along with Tamara 's photographs , were hung in cities all over the world , from Buenos Aires and Montreal to Glasgow and Sydney … but not in India , where the book was too hot politically . The two women had gone on tour with their work - wine , food , and five - star hotels all expensed . It had been a glamourous , exciting experience for Cleo - and it had forged a complicit bond between the two women . Before then , Cleo had often been intimidated by the beautiful Tamara 's fashionable elegance . West took a sabbatical from the university and looked after the house and the children . After nearly a year of book tours , art galleries , and media appearances , Cleo missed Njàbò and Sonya , yearned to return to domestic life . She came back home , to the girls . For the next few years , she rarely painted . But the dream continued to haunt her . Cleo now spends entire days in her studio , has even taken to locking herself in . Sometimes she stands silently behind the door , listening to the others talk about her . They assume that she has been overtaken by a new creative storm , is painting a new series , and needs time alone to focus her creative energies . The first thing Cleo thinks is : Patrice and Assaad look so uncomfortable sleeping on that small ugly couch . Patrice is lying on top of Assaad , resting his head on Assaad 's shoulder . Assaad 's arms are wrapped around Patrice , one hand on the small of his back , the other on his shoulder blade . " Patty ? Assaad ? " The two men snap awake . And then Cleo peers around the room , touching the mattress beneath her . She thinks : Is this a hospital bed ? Cleo notices that Patrice looks worried , but she can 't read Assaad , whose face is even more inscrutable than usual . Getting up , the men stand on either side of Cleo , each wrapping one of her hands in their own . Cleo takes her hands back before they can say anything . " Enough . This is too much . Go sit down . What am I doing here ? " They go back to the couch . Assaad squeezes Patrice 's hand , nodding at him to speak . " No , love , you tell her . " Patrice says . " You found her . " Assaad looks straight into Cleo 's eyes , willing her to keep her eyes locked on his . His voice is dry ice , fuming with wisps of cold mist . " None of us had seen you for more than a day . For weeks , you 've been distant , aloof , oblivious to the girls , oblivious to all of us . " Assaad pauses , his eyes still locked on Cleo 's . Is he waiting for an explanation ? Or a reaction ? Cleo wants to look away , but can 't . " As I said , we hadn 't seen you for more than a day . You hadn 't come to bed the night before . You 'd locked yourself in your studio . The girls and I were ready to have lunch . I knocked on your door , calling you , inviting you to eat with us . You didn 't answer . I knocked harder . Yelled out your name . Still , you didn 't answer . I had to take the door out . I found you unconscious . The air was foul . You 'd pissed yourself . Vomited . " Again , a pause . Cleo feels the cold mist of Assaad 's anger go down her throat , into her stomach . Cleo has never seen Assaad like this . Of all of them , he is the most patient , the most understanding , the one who resolves conflicts , soothes hurts and pains . How could she have let it come to this ? " There was but one new painting . Later , Njàbò told us you 'd painted that one weeks ago , the day West brought them to his class . I called the ambulance . I couldn 't rouse you . " Another pause . Patrice fills the tense silence . " The doctor told us you were suffering from dehydration and malnutrition . Why haven 't you been eating ? What have you been doing ? Are you angry with us ? Speak to us , Clee , we all love you . Maybe we should have been more attentive . You were looking weak , tired . We should have paid attention . We were all too preoccupied , with work and with the girls . Why are you hiding from us ? What are you hiding from us ? " Patrice 's voice gets louder and increasingly reproachful . " Why did you let this happen ? " " Patty , I … " She avoids their faces . She feels ashamed . Why has she kept the dream a secret all these years ? The dream is a chasm into which intimacy is falling ever further from her grasp . Can it reemerge from those depths after so many years of secrecy ? " How … How are the girls ? " " They 're fine , Clee . Assaad quit his job at The Smoke Shop . He 's a great mother . " Patrice 's grin fills his whole face . He ruffles Assaad 's hair , kissing him on the cheek . Assaad fights a losing battle against the grin spreading on his face . " We didn 't really need the money . It 's a stimulating change to be at home with the girls . It 's a challenge to teach them , and to learn from them . " Patrice glances at Assaad , then gets up and sits next to her on the bed , stroking her face . " You 've been out for four days . It 's Sunday . " Cleo closes her eyes . She wishes she knew why she 's been so apprehensive , why she 's been hiding a part of herself from her lovers . She remembers falling in love with Patrice when she was still waiting on tables at The Small Easy . She remembers him introducing her to his family - Assaad , Tamara , West ; her family , now . She takes a blind leap . " I 've been having this dream … " The Baka - the few hundred who remain - live in the forest , in a territory that covers part of Cameroon and the Congo . They believe - or believed , Cleo isn 't sure - that the Mòkìlà were a tribe of shapeshifters , both elephant and human . The Mòkìlà would raid Baka villages and initiate the captives into their secret society . Their sorcerers , the mokidwa , would transform their captives into shapeshifters . The captives became Mòkìlà and were never again seen by their families . Njàbò is the ancestor of all elephants , sometimes male , sometimes female . Stories abound of avatars of Njàbò , giant cows or bulls , leading herds of elephants against Baka warriors or villages . Njàbò 's tusks are so enormous , they contain ten other tusks within them . Njàbò is often flanked by a retinue of guards . Cleo has been trying to demystify her experiences . She searched the web for those strange words on her painting and found them . She asked West to get books from the university library . She 's been reading on the Baka and the myth of Njàbò . She 's never cared before about her ancestry and now finds herself wondering if perhaps there are Baka or Mòkìlà among her ancestors . The Mòkìlà are a myth , she reminds herself . She 's been painting again . The new canvasses are violent , raw . When she painted her first series years ago , she hadn 't felt this uninhibited . Now , every session leaves her exhausted , yet exhilarated . Having shared her dream with her family , she has nothing to hide . She feels free . She is still dreaming every night , but the dream is changing . Now the whole family walks with Njàbò . And the dream is getting longer . There is more violence , more bloodshed . Njàbò leads the tribe around the world . They crush all human constructions . They kill all the humans . Theirs is an unstoppable stampede . Cleo has painted much of this . Now , the dream continues beyond the violence . The tribe walks the Earth in peace . The tribe grows and Njàbò reigns . Today , for the first time , Cleo 's painting is inspired by that part of the dream . She leaves her door open ; sometimes the others come down and watch her work , quietly , discreetly . At first , she knew , they were keeping an eye on her , worried that she would withdraw once again . After a few weeks , that changed . Now they come down because they find it exciting to be in the room while Cleo is painting . The candlelight , the thick odours , and her absolute devotion to the canvas all combine to create a mesmerizing ambience . Even Waters has been spending hours curled up under her stool . Every day , Njàbò comes , silently , to see her paint . Cleo is still nervous around her daughter , still avoids talking with her . Cleo can feel that Njàbò is in the room now . The painting is finished . It depicts Njàbò , the elephant , towering over her herd , young elephants running around her , playing , celebrating . Around the elephants , the forest is lush . Njàbò , the eight - year - old girl , walks up to her mother , in silence . She gazes at the painting . Cleo sees the tears running down her daughter 's cheeks . Cleo gathers Njàbò in her lap . The girl buries her head in her mother 's breasts . They both cry . Cleo can 't remember crying with such abandon , feeling so cleansed by the act . She hugs her daughter , firmly , proudly . I am awakened by a light kiss on the mouth . Njàbò has crawled into bed , is holding my hand . Sonya is behind her , quiet , submissive . Njàbò whispers , " I am the dream . " Looking straight into my eyes , Waters rubs himself against Njàbò 's leg . Behind my daughter , a group of old men materializes . The mokidwa have shed their invisibility .

She had lots of friends who weren 't from my crowd . To look at us you 'd never believe we were compatible . She smoked in the school bathroom ; I was scared to go in there most the time . Her crowd was the cool , tough bunch while mine was the mediocre athletic , nerdy types . I can 't remember our first words to each other but we clicked and that was the start of a lifelong friendship . Crys introduced me to her brother , a popular tough guy . We went on a double date and another lifelong relationship was made that night . I met the guy of my dreams and married him 2 You 'd have to know Crys to understand that she 's never really been the emotional kind , not lovey dovey , or huggy . I on the other hand cry at the drop of a hat , love anything sentimental and hug a lot . So you 'll understand when I found the letter why it made me cry all over again thinking My dad passed away 11 years ago . It was one of saddest , most unbelievable times of my life . I have written several posts about him and if you 've read any of them you know he was my hero and I was his princess . Crys doesn 't like to show emotion and she 's not big on funerals so she stayed at my mom 's house the day of the funeral and cleaned and prepared for visitors . This meant more than she 'll ever know . We never really took the time to talk about his death because I knew and I think A few weeks later I received a letter in the mail from her . She expressed how sorry she was that I had lost my dad . The letter was about a page long and her words touched me so . I can 't explain how much it helped me at that time . Crys showed my family love by all the things she had " done " because that 's her way of giving love . The special thing about it is that Crys knew I needed a different kind of love , a letter of love . Even though it took her out of her comfort zone she I ran across that letter just the other day and as I read it again the memories flooded back to all the times we 've been there for each other . I write this to tell Crys " I love you . You are never forgotten . You are my sister . You are beautiful inside and out and I 'm thankful to God for putting I am thankful to The Red Dress Club for this prompt . It is a post that needed to be written a long time ago . Here 's the prompt : You or your character find a forgotten letter or card from someone important in your life - - whether good or bad . What does it say ? How does it affect you or your character ? What is done with it ? Webster 's defines respect as high or special regard , or the state or quality of being esteemed . If we take this definition literally and apply it to how we treat each other , we 'd have some pretty awesome relationships going on out there huh ? Marriages would last longer , be revived Respect could revolutionize relationships . So what does it look like ? I 'm going to list 10 ways a woman can respect her man or vice versa . These 10 have been tested and tried by me in my own marriage and I can testify that respect can change mediocre to marvelous . Along with our willingness to change and God 's love , miracles happened in our relationship . Give it a try you might find a priceless treasure where you thought there was only some trash . 1 - When he comes home from a long day at work give him a few minutes to wind down . I know you gals who have been home all day with the kids just want to pass them off to him as soon as he walks through the door but trust me , it 's not a good idea . Usually . Believe me when my kids were young my first instinct was to hand him those precious little ones and run for my life . 2 - Listen to his ideas . I realize you might not agree with these ideas . They may even sound crazy sometimes but just listen . There will be another , more appropriate opportunity to tell him that maybe he needs to rethink these ideas , ideas that will blow your whole savings account . But 3 - When you feel it 's time to talk to him about such things as mentioned in No . 3 do it in a gentle way . There 's nothing worse than making your man feel like his ideas are dumb . Put yourself in his place , do you want him to suggest to you that your ideas are dumb ? 5 - Put your relationship with him above all other human relationships . Yes even above your children . It took me a long time to learn that this was a wonderful way to show him how much I respected and loved him . Take time away with him every day , even if it 's just a few minutes . Let 7 - Do not degrade him especially in public . If you are with friends playing a game and he doesn 't get a question right don 't make hubby feel like an idiot . He already feels embarrassed because he didn 't get it right . Don 't make it worse . It 's better to say , " That 's ok honey you 'll get it 9 - Do something to let him know he is appreciated and not just on Father 's Day . One night B got home late from work and I had made steak . After heating it up I cut the steak up for him before I gave him his plate . He said , " Wow , why did you cut it up ? ! " " Cause I love you . " Sickening you . We all want to be treated with respect . Most of us don 't believe we are respected as much as we would like . One solution may be to teach others how we want to be respected by respecting them that way . Why did I buy that stupid pack of cigarettes ? I won 't smoke them . Hopefully . They 're like some sort of security , I guess . Just in case I get nervous if my lawyer tells me something I don 't want to hear I 'll have them . Anyway I like the way a cigarette feels between my fingers , between my lips , and the taste brings back old memories . I 'll take them with me and keep the pack in the glove compartment of my sister 's Taurus . At 15 years old my people - pleasing - self began smoking with my boyfriend . He taught me how to inhale and I sucked down the nicotine for years until I got pregnant with Ben . I wanted my first child to have a healthy start in life and somehow cigarettes just didn 't seem like the way to go . After that it was quit , start , quit , start and the monster won almost every time . But this time I had been on the wagon over a year , yet here I sat with Lynn knowing after this meeting was over I could and probably would have a Marlboro Light to ease my nerves . I 'm on my way to prison anyway what 's it gonna hurt ? to fade . I pictured me blowing smoke out the window of the car while they rode in the back seat . The toxins billowing behind me up their tiny nostrils . They seemed content but how was that contributing to the dream ? Actually I was helping to destroy it . Instead of giving them life I was taking it from them . I heard a sermon yesterday on my way to church . The pastor was listing things men needed to help them be the best they could be . I certainly agreed with him on most everything so I thought I 'd share . There aren 't many men who read my blog but women if you can add to this list please comment , maybe we can write a book . What Do Men Really Want ? 1 - Men want real food . However they need the healthy stuff like salad , baked chicken and fish , broccoli and lots of water . Today the Train and I will begin our path to eating the healthy stuff . Yesterday we stuffed ourselves on the real stuff , donuts , barbecued ribs and snacks til we went to bed . We love us some REAL FOOD but it 's time to get on the track to a longer , healthier life . 2 - Men want recreation . Football , fishing , hunting , computer or video games , etc . Guess what ? They need it too ! My philosophy is let him do one of these things cause he could be doing something much worse . I did not say his recreation should take every spare minute he has but he needs time to himself just like you do . 3 - Men want respect . And as much as he wants it he needs it too . The Bible even tells us in Ephesians to respect our husbands . Obviously it 's something ingrained in them that makes them whole . A man who doesn 't get respect feels taken for granted and used . ( Later this week , " How To Respect A Man . " ) 4 - Men Want To Be Encouraged . You probably won 't find too many men that will admit to needing this but deep down they do . Encourage how ? Ask him to do something for you ( I am keeping my mouth shut on this one ) then tell him what a good job he did . Example : My hubby washed the dishes and put them away . After I woke up from my fainting spell I saw he had not put things in the right spot . I would have never told him he did it incorrectly , no I praised and thanked him . ( Another thing , if you ever expect to get him to do anything else like that , don 't criticize . ) Also 5 - Men want " intimacy " . Actually they need it . It really is a fact cause I asked my hubbyand there are huge statistics that say the same . Men think about it most the time in one way or the other . The Bible also tells us not to withhold intimacy from each other within a marriage unless we are taking time away to pray and agree together to do it . ( I may also right a blog from a woman 's point of view on this subject , because it 's a bit different from a guy 's thinking . ) 6 - Men want companionship . Ok maybe some of them don 't want it but they need it . He needs the togetherness with a good woman who loves and supports him . She can make him stronger and more effective in life as a husband and father and even on the job . He just needs to let her in to that deeper place he 's kept hidden . Opening up to his woman can open doors to If a man wants a woman who will walk around the world for him all he has to do is be honest about who he is and what he wants , love , support and respect her , and be a good father to their kids . It really is not all that hard guys . ( tiny bit of joking here ) 7 - Men want to be appreciated . Thank him for being the provider for your family or helping you provide . Think about the positive instead of the negative . Thank him for cutting the grass , for reading the kids a story , for going to church with you . There are a multitude of things you can thank your man for . On the Father 's Day card I bought The Train it said thanks for being my partner and friend and for making me happy . He needs to know how you feel even if he 's not able to share his feelings as well as you . You might just teach him a thing or two . 8 - Men want God . They may not know it but God created the heart with a keyhole in it . The key is God 's Son Jesus . When he lets Jesus open his heart his life will change . A man of God can change his world , his family and his marriage into something amazing . As I got ready for church I looked in the mirror and thought , " Well you 're lookin ' pretty good ole gal . " Beautiful ? Maybe not , pretty , yeah , I 'll settle for that . My black and white paisley skirt , black shirt and silver belt were looking sharp on my 5 ' 2 and one half inch body . I looked as slim as pudgy Once at church I went to Lifegroup , that 's the new word for Sunday School , and then stopped off by the restroom . As I stood at the sink checking to make sure I still looked " pretty " , a few friends came in and we talked a few moments . One of those sweet ladies was an avid reader of my blog and she told me how much she enjoyed my posts . Ahh this was a good day so far … . But you know how it feels when you know someone is watching you ? I kinda felt this way so I began adjusting my black shirt and as I walked a little further I noticed my leg felt strange . Cold , drafty . . . I reached around to the back of my leg and discovered to my horror my skirt was caught up in my panties ! Well , all I could do at that point was pull it out and keep going . As much as I I really didn 't hear too much of the first part of the service . Actually I felt a little self - conscious wondering who , if anybody seated around me saw my butt . Off and on throughout the service my thoughts went back to this " mishap " . I hurriedly left the church after the service . There was no sauntering ; no confidence , no joy , no feeling pretty , and the thought did run through my mind , " Pride comes before a fall , in my case pride comes before a " tuck " . Written for a prompt from The Red Dress Club . Show us how physical beauty can open doors or close them . How can it make a positive or negative impact ? This week we would like you to write about how the show of affection has played a part in your memory . Choose a time when either the abundance or lack of affection ( either by you or someone else ) stands out , and show us . Bring us to that time . Help us feel what you felt . My mother tucked me and my little brother in every night . We said our prayers , kissed her and she told us how much she loved us . Daddy came in later too and there would be no " sweet dreams " for this little girl unless her daddy said so right before the lights went out . 4 : 00 am came early and Daddy had to get his day started in order to work both jobs . He was as quiet as a mouse as he crept around the house getting ready . But before he left he opened my door and slipped in . He kissed my forehead and said , " I love you sweetheart , see you tonight . " I closed my eyes and drifted back to sleep as my father went off to work at the car manufacturer for hours and then to pump gas at the filling station . He worked this second job one year so I could attend kindergarten . It wasn 't free back in 1969 . Every morning of my childhood life I got that kiss and those words . After I grew up and moved out on my own I still heard those words every time I spoke to my Daddy . I don 't hear them anymore because he slipped away to heaven in 1999 but I will forever hold them in my heart . Growing up with love and affection displayed openly helped me be able to do the same . My husband and children never , if at all possible , go to bed without hearing how much I love them . Before we leave the house everyone gives the " I love yous " all around . It may seem flippant and careless to some to use the words so easily but my Daddy said , " What if I left and never saw you again ? I want you to know I love you . " I feel the same . Say now what might not get said later . Understand in 1 John when he speaks of " the one who believes does not continue to sin " he means sinning as a way of life , meaning this is the pattern . Of course we cannot judge the motives of another 's heart and we do not know why someone may be sucked in by addictions and such , so read these verses in examination of your own salvation . Search your own heart and motives . Some say if we hold to the doctrine of eternal security we will be prone to " have a license to sin . " However I disagree with this belief because it is obvious to me that anyone who lives under the belief that God 's grace and salvation is given as a gift and is permanent , knows that we live for Him out of our love for Him . We love because He first loved us . The understanding of God 's great love for me draws me into an intimate , close relationship of trust with Him . Out of this relationship flows a love that causes me to WANT to live for God , not sin because I can . It is exactly the opposite of what the followers of the doctrine that one can lose salvation describes it to be . Even the Apostle Paul had something to say about this in Romans 6 : 2 - 6 . Read it . We 'd like you to write about what your character wants most . Today I 'm building on my character Lina . She was introduced in my last prompt I Never Left Her . The prison cell was frightening most the time . But right now in this perfect moment Lina lay on the bottom bunk thinking about Lacey and Ben . Her kids were all that held her together . Her cell mate left for a few hours for laundry duty and this was a good thing for Lina . It gave her a break Lina thought maybe the warden would transfer her to another cell after the last incidence but it never happened . So she lay there waiting almost holding her breath knowing Sheila would be back soon . But for now Lina could get lost in her memories of the good times before life went wrong . The night her sister Lynn came to pick her up from Eckerd was a turning point in her life . Cross Point Rehab Center agreed to admit her that night . Lina worked the program for 3 months and has stayed clean since then . Her life was being rebuilt and Lacey and Ben were living with her again . Then the day came , the dark , horrible day when she had to begin paying for her past mistakes . Lina was arrested for selling drugs 4 months after coming out of rehab . She wasn 't selling drugs at that time but in the days when she was addicted Lina would have done anything for a fix . Her main concern was that if she became a nark it would put her life and the lives of her entire family in jeopardy . She knew the consequences she would pay for giving information to the government . So she didn 't do it . Lina was sentenced to 2 ½ years in a federal penitentiary . Sheila had the urge to humiliate Lina once again . " You know little girl , they ain 't never lettin ' you outta here . You gonna mess up again right here in this prison and get more time . " Lina continued in the same sleeping position , not moving nor saying a word . At this point Sheila grabbed Lina by the back of her shirt and jerked her out of the bunk onto the floor . Looking Lina dead in the eyes as if she were about to kill her prey she screamed , " I said you are stuck with me for a long long time ! " Lina looked up at Sheila as if she were a vulnerable , frightened lamb going to the slaughter . Somehow an inner strength rose up within and she said , " All I want is to get out of here ! I will get out of here and nobody can stop me not even you Sheila . " The prison clinic was cold and dark . Lina lay there wondering why she was there on a gurney . The clinic nurse came in and asked how she was feeling . " My head hurts and it hurts to breath . " Lina began sobbing . With every sob she wanted to scream from the excruciating pain shooting through her body . " All I want is to do my time so I can go home to my babies . " Pull up a chair , get a hot cup of coffee or diet coke and sit a spell with me . I 'd love to tell you to smell the fresh baked cookies but that would be a lie . There aren 't any . However you might find some Oreos and Chips Ahoy . For sure there 's Hershey 's chocolate with almonds over there in my stash . I don 't use fine china or glassware but paper plates and plastic cups are always on hand .

I 've realised recently , much to my own amazement , that I don 't have a crush on anyone right now . It 's very weird . Insanely so . It seems I 've always had at least a mild obsession with ONE guy over the years since I discovered boys . Occasionally I 've juggled two or three or more crushes all at once , with varying intensities . I 've had those immediate " fuck , he is HOT ! " instant attractions ; or the slow - burning ones when I perhaps had no attraction at first and then it grew . I 've had both at once - for different guys , obviously . I actually thought I couldn 't really FUNCTION without liking SOMEONE . Like , it was a hobby or something , something to do , to obsess about . Like in school , planning my routes from one class to another so I could see the guy I liked at that point , detailing any encounters in my diary like a stalker . Or in uni , trying to summon up the courage to make conversation with the guy I liked then in the library . And ending up blabbering and stammering some rubbish like a total loser . Feeling like it wasn 't even worth being at school / uni / the office on the day the guy I liked chose to be off . All that shit . Like school or uni or whatever wasn 't actually for doing schoolwork - it was for me to eye up all the guys , choose my favourites and stalk them determinedly . . . while knowing deep down it was never going to happen . The thing is , having a crush can be so bloody DRAINING . The highs ( when he notices you , or speaks to you ) are fantastic but the lows ( when he doesn 't seem to notice you 're alive , when you find out he 's actually seeing someone / a bastard / has some sort of kinky fetish or disappointing character flaw ) are agonising . I have lost count the amount of time I have spent crying over guys I like . And this wasn 't just when I was younger . I 'd still been doing the same thing until recently . But right now , I 'm apparently crush - less . Which should be a good thing . I have time to focus on other stuff - my work , my family and my friends , my writing ( hopefully ! ) , finding new music I like , catching up on all the tvPosted by I know I seemed all healthy yesterday and shit but I did say I was all socially booked up for the next few days , so you KNOW I was out getting fucked really . Actually , I 'm not REALLY as drunk as I thought I would be . But anyway . . . I feel a TINY bit pissed . . . and feeling generally just a little bit depressed and sad . I don 't really know why , but I DO know it 's guy - related . I guess the fact they have no realisation of when to stop . How am I meant to react ? ? ? Only way I can seem to handle it at all is to just block them out mentally . Is that immature ? Possibly . But HOW THE HELL ELSE AM I MEANT TO REACT ? ? ? I tried to give them the benefit of the doubt , I tried to help out . . . I MISSED being friends with them and they 're not a bad person so I wanted to try and make an effort and see if we could actually BE friends again . I thought it was actually working . So why is it that suddenly the newly rediscovered friendship seems to be a one way street on my part ? ? ? Seriously , how else ? ? ? I am there for them when they need me , try to cheer them up , whatever . . . and the second they are " okay " again , they just drop me ? ? ? Suddenly I 'm no good for an email unless they 're bored , a text unless they 're needy . . . I know I 've touched on this before but in the time since I came back from Fuerte it 's become all the more obvious . Clearly I thought someone was trying to be my friend but now I just suspect that all along they were just using me until someone better came along . And that makes me feel like utter crap . Really it 's the story of my life . So why do people continue to surprise me ? ? ? Just wondering . . . Just back my run . MAN , am I unfit ! ! ! We managed nearly half an hour but some of it was hardcore walking rather than running due to sheer exhaustion plus the fact the wind was so icy that it was taking our breath away the minute we opened our mouths . We always managed to keep our heartrate up though so I suppose that 's a start . I know I 'll be sore in the morning but I 'm easing myself in gently as I 'm booked pretty much solid socially for the next four days . Seriously , it 's like all I have to do is decide I am on a health kick for my social life to suddenly majorly perk up . I have about five different invitations just over Friday and Saturday all of a sudden and no way to fit them all in . But I 'll do my best to try - after all , perhaps my perfect guy might be at one of them . That 's the beauty of life . . . you don 't know what 's around the corner ! All the same , I need to keep up the fitness at least this week , and can bring in the healthy eating in a major way next week . Last night I discovered they have this on youtube . Do you have any idea how much this discovery is going to help my health and fitness regime ? ? ? If I 'm already on the laptop anyway ( a fairly obvious statement since I 'm online so damn much ) , it will be easy for me to just open a new internet window , stick the various parts of this on and do it . So much less hassle than loading up a dvd . Plus I did it yesterday and really felt it working . Anyway , I 'm going to try and keep it up as much as possible , do the running a couple of days a week and see what else I can throw into the mix . We 'll just have to see what happens . . . * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Yesterday I got an email from someone called Moses . I was very excited ( naturally ! ) and sent an email to my friend to let her know . " The highlight of my day has arrived already . Moses has just emailed me ! How can I better that ? ? ? " Her response ? " Did he tell you about his plans to build an ark ? " I knew that wasn 't quite right , but it took me a couple of seconds to add two and two andPosted by So , it 's Tuesday . . . what do I have for you today ? ? ? Hmm , let 's see . . . Go here for clip 1 . . . Better than the ACTUAL high school musical ? ? ? Well I think so . . . And I 'm sure we have all seen this one before , but I hadn 't seen it in ages so I figured I 'd just stick it on . . . Anyway , that 's all for now . I 'll be back later as that was me just ensuring I at least TRIED to install some cheer into your Tuesday . I certainly needed some myself . Back later . . . as shortly I am . . . WAIT FOR IT ! ! ! . . . going for a run ! ! ! I know , stranger things have happened , right ? ? ? Just not to me , lol ! Okay , here it is - drum roll please ! ! ! - the answers to the questions you asked . Jessica Maria asked - " Have you ever travelled to the States before ? " I have never been to the U . S . - I 'll hopefully get around to it one day . When I was working for the criminal she lead me to believe that I might get to go to America , but funnily enough that never happened . I have always wanted to go though , ever since I was a kid , although I 'm sure that it won 't be quite like I thought . I especially always wanted to go to California . Well , LIVE there ideally . I blame Sweet Valley High and Sunset Beach for this . I actually wrote a post about this during the last blog swap . One day , I 'll hit the States and you all won 't know what hit you , lol ! Chele asked - " What 's the meanest thing you ever done to someone else ? As a kid or adult . " I probably have done tons of mean things , but I guess I mentally block them out . I 've hurt people , sure , but it 's never been completely intentional . Like accidentally getting someone I really cared about as a friend into trouble . It wasn 't intended , I was just thoughtless and didn 't think of the possible consquences of my actions . I apologised but I guess it was too little too late . And as a result , he 'll never speak to me again , storms past me without even looking at me , and makes sarky comments about me to other people . I know I deserve it ; doesn 't mean it hurts any less though . Other than that , I suppose the most DELIBERATELY mean thing I did was to my first boyfriend . I wanted to break up with him but didn 't really have the courage to do it , I didn 't really know what to do . I ended up just being really horrible to him , walking off places without him , not answering his phone calls , etc , until he got the hint and provided me with the opening to break it off . It made me feel less guilty , somehow , I guess . Karma is a bitch though , since I 've just kept getting kicked in the teeth in every relationship I 've had since . Chele also wanted me to post more pics of me doing " active things " ( like the crazy golf Posted by Not got much to say today , just been having a lovely lazy weekend , which has been great as frankly the weather has just been so horrid I haven 't wanted to leave the house . Let 's hope it gets a bit better for tomorrow , since I WILL actually have to leave the house then . I 've been a bit annoyed ( I know you 're like " what the fuck ? you ? ? ? annoyed ? surely not ? " - sarcasm ! - but I really am ! ) recently due to feeling a bit used . Why is it people think they can text or email or whatever when they want something , whether it 's to vent or complain or look for some sort of comfort . . . but the minute they 're okay ( or found someone else perhaps ) they just drop me ? ( Again . ) So I contact them and they just ignore me . Niiiicccceee . Makes me feel like I 'm worth precisely fuck all . So why did I even bother helping them in the first place ? ? ? Who knows . It 's just actually pretty damn hurtful . Phew . Rant over . I feel slightly better for having vented myself now . Still hurt , obviously , but like I 've got something off my chest . * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Onto other things . I bought UGG boots online last night . Something I never really intended to do , I don 't actually like the LOOK of them all that much , but my sis has a pair and they look good on her so I thought , " Bugger it , I 'll just buy them " . And I found them for only seventy three quid here so I thought , yeah , why not . They 'll keep my feet warm and , hopefully , a bit drier than my ballet pumps do . : ) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * If you want a laugh , go to this post at At Least I 'm Skinny . Basically she lists seven stupid things she has done in her life , but I could hardly get past number one as I was laughing so hard at it . * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * I also wanted to highlight two causes that friends of mine are involved in , as I keep meaning to and keep forgetting . Firstly the charity DebRA , which is looking for a cure for the skin condition Epidermolysis Bullosa - this is " a genetic condition where the skin breaks at the slightest touch , causing painful , open blisters andPosted by Don 't you just love looking at old photos from your past ? ? ? Man , does it bring back memories , and make you realise how old you are getting . Or perhaps that 's just me . Anyway , I was looking through my photos earlier and found the selection below . . . I just thought it might be fun to share them really ! So here goes . . . Me and my brother and sis ( I 'm the one in the yellow dress ) - from the age my brother looks I 'm thinking this was circa 1988 . In fact , I 'm pretty sure it is , as I think this was the day of my school trip to the Glasgow Garden Festival . I can 't believe how tiny we all are - things change ! ! ! ( Even the door of the house , where my parents still live now , has changed colour now ! ) Another one avec family ( from the previous pic you can probably guess I 'm the one on the right - and yes I AM a natural brunette ! ) on holiday one year . It looks like we 're at a model village and me and my brother are proudly sporting our Pontin 's Crocodile Club t - shirts ! ! ! This one is of me at my First Communion - probably the one and only time I 'll have a white dress made for me ! Me and my sis in jail . . . er , I mean , at Blackpool Pleasure Beach as teenagers ! Just after my graduation from uni with my friend L . How unflattering graduation ceremony robes are ! ! ! I suppose I should be relieved I didn 't have to wear the hat ! Me with my friends D and S . This was 2002 . A guy with a polaroid camera stopped us in Sauchiehall Street as we were on our way to The Garage , and offered to take pics of us for a quid each . We said yes , of course , possibly due to the alcohol we 'd already consumed , and also probably since we had forgotten a camera . Me at a friend 's 21st party in 2003 . I ended up snogging an 18 year old that night ( a fact I am still getting slagged about to this day since I was 23 ) and I also lost my phone , which I was devastated about . This was me at out for my friend D 's 25th birthday in 2005 . I can 't remember where we went but I DO remember I didn 't last all that long . Damn alcohol ! ! ! This is me and my gran ( the one who died earliePosted by Man , it 's a HORRIBLE day outside . The wind just won 't quit and it 's effin ' LOUD . Blurgh . On the upside , I have absolutely no plans to leave the house today . Possibly not even any plans to leave my BED . Although I suppose I WILL probably have to pee soon . ( Too much information ? Soz ! ) Since my inspiration is at an all - time low ( well , strictly speaking I DO have lots of ideas but not much energy to put them into a post right now ) , I thought I would take the lazy way out and post some music videos . My theme is " songs I REALLY need to download but have been too lazy to quite get around to it yet " . Good theme , huh ? ? ? : ) So here is my first choice . I think this could be one of the most perfect pop / r & b songs ever , I just love the overall catchiness of it , and I just think the production on it is amazing . Although the video DOES scare me more than a little . . . This next one is a song that 's been around for a couple of years now , but I keep forgetting to download it . Probably because it 's a dance tune and I like to pretend I hate ALL dance songs . Not strictly true though . . . Also , the video is just fantastic . And now , here 's a REALLY old one , not sure why I keep forgetting about this one , since I 've loved it for close to 20 years now . I always remember it was playing on the radio when my dad was driving me and my mum to the airport so we could go to Paris in 1991 . Weird the things you remember , right ? This is a song from a band I saw kinda by accident about a year ago when a friend of mine was supporting them in Glasgow . I 'd never heard of them before , but I do love this song . . . This song , on the other hand , is one from a Surf advert of all things , but it 's a really nice little song . . . And here is the most recent song on my " need to download " list - I only actually heard it for the first time last night , but I have to admit I really like it . Don 't judge me . . . So that 's it - hope you enjoyed ! ! ! Now I really should get out of bed given that it 's nearly 1pm and I have done precisely nothing - not that I was ever intendPosted by WET FEETIt 's rained a ridiculous amount since I got back from Fuerteventura . Which is immensely annoying . I can handle getting rained on , POURED on even . I don 't mind wet hair ( unless I 've spent ages blowdrying and straightening it , the occasions of which are few and far between these days ) , can tolerate wet clothes , but wet feet ? I loathe that . And what always seems to be the first thing to get wet ? You guessed it , my feet ! Even when it 's not raining they end up wet , because the GROUND is always wet and the water seeps in . This is particularly annoying when I 'm on my WAY somewhere , say work , for example , and have to sit with cold wet feet all day . It puts me in such a bad mood . And I bet you thought I was ALWAYS a merry ray of sunshine , right ? Right ? ? ? ? HANGOVERSI seem to be back on the drink and hitting it hard . This is less a sign I 'm out too much than it is a sign of me feeling a bit down , I reckon . But hey , I can cope with that . It 's the way I feel the next day that sucks . I hate the disgusting taste in your mouth , the sick feeling , the builders who take up residence inside your head and start hammering , and the fact that it even hurts to look at my computer screen for the first few hours of work . My hangovers have DEFINITELY taken a turn for the worse since I turned 29 . And I 'm not handling it well . The only guaranteed solution seems to be to give up alcohol - and the idea of not drinking wine anymore ? ? ? Fucking TERRIFYING . . . ONE OF MY FLATMATESNot the one I blogged about previously , we actually sort of got those issues sorted out with her . Another one . She has gradually taken over half the communal space as her own and got in our way in the process . In our hallway , she has installed both her bicycle , AND a row of shelves on which she stores her shoes , her umbrella , writing paper and , at one point , an open can of Diet Coke for several days . We 're at constant risk of falling over it or stubbing our toes on it . In addition , there is a cupboard at the end of the hall where she stores what appears to be half herPosted by So . . . here 's the deal . I 've kinda got things to do later so not sure if I 'll definitely be around . And because my damn reader kept breaking last night I have tons of blogs to catch up with too , which I hate . And I 'm feeling kinda uninspired due to my current general funk . So I thought why don 't I just open the floor to you ? Any questions you want to ask me ? I feel like I 've probably covered loads of things already , but perhaps someone can inspire me . . . Don 't be shy ! ! ! ; ) . . . and I can 't really explain why . I 've been feeling a bit out of sorts since I returned from my holiday . I guess because I felt like when I came back things would be different . And generally they haven 't been . That 's kinda depressing . Like . . . have you ever not expected something to happen at all , and then been told it would ? And felt really happy about it precisely because you HADN ' T expected it , and finally felt like . . . . I don 't know . . . someone finally UNDERSTOOD ? Only to be disappointed when , inevitably , it doesn 't . I can 't really go further into it than that , and it wasn 't even a big thing in the grand scheme of things I guess . But the point is , it was important to ME , and I just ended up feeling so let down . Because it wouldn 't even have crossed my mind in the first place . I was resigned to it , and then I got my hopes up . But whatever . Anyway , then I got freaked out on the subway home . One of the stations was closed ( due to a power cut I think ) but we stopped in it anyway . It was pitch black . Silent . One girl shouted to her friend " Caitlin , Caitlin , it 's like that film ' Creep ' " . Yeah , thanks for that , Caitlin 's friend . If the doors had opened at that point , I would probably have screamed . And then pushed her out of it . What else ? Oh , I feel fat , I seem to have put on a few more pounds during my holiday . And yet I can 't seem to stop eating and my social life for the next few days is fairly hectic so I don 't know how the heck I 'm going to CONTROL my eating . The angry red dry patches on my neck , which had went away while I was on holiday , are now back with a vengeance , making me think once and for all it 's stress - related . My mosquito bites are still itchy . On top of all that , one of my flatmates just popped by my room to say she thought one of our annoying flatmates and her even MORE annoying boyfriend who is ALWAYS here , seemed to be in the shower together . We had a quick listen , and I 'm not completely sure they weren 't shagging in there , it kinda sounded like that . My ears feel violated and I 'm franticPosted by Here 's a fascinating fact about myself . I 've not been to a hairdresser since I was seventeen . That 's right , nearly twelve years . I don 't like hairdressers . I 'm not sure why . I rely on home hair - dye kits for my blondeness , and family members for haircuts . I would hate to BE a hairdresser too . On my feet all day - blurgh . Probably having to inhale dodgy chemicals , and make inane conversation with customers . Man . sometimes I find it hard enough to talk to people I actually WANT to talk to . And now here 's another reason why I would hate to be a hairdresser . I just read this in the small ads of my magazine . . . HAIRDRESSING ACCIDENT ? Don 't suffer in silence - HairLawyers are the UK 's first dedicated compensation service run by legal experts in hair injury . It 's got the obligatory freephone number , a website . . . I 'm distressed by the whole thing , frankly . Suddenly ambulance - chasing has sprung into regular everyday life . It 's invaded girl - world . One of the reasons , I now remember , that I don 't like going to the hairdressers , is because I RARELY like the results . I 'm sure I 'm not the only person who has left the salon struggling not to cry , after nodding and smiling through gritted teeth and saying " it 's lovely ' , not wanting to offend . Fact is , more often than not , once I get home and style it myself , it 's okay . But at the time , I am mortified to even go out in public . . . just to walk home ! ! ! Man , I guess the whole hair area is RIPE for exploitation . Imagine if HairLawyers takes off . You 'll have desperate lawyers stationed outside every big salon , watching for someone with bad hair coming out and crying so they can swoop in and offer to " represent " them . They 'll probably be going up to people who left the salon feeling confident and sexy and imply that they look crap , just to get more business . I feel even MORE sorry for hairdressers now . . . I returned from my holiday to discover the bathroom I use in our flat had been appropriated by Satan and turned into his den . You think I 'm insane , right ? ? ? Okay , I 'm exaggerating . But JUST A TAD . You see , there were two light bulbs in our bathroom . Out of desperation , one had been replaced by a red lightbulb a while back . This didn 't make a difference at the time . There was still a . . . well , NORMAL lightbulb . But while I was away , the other lightbulb apparently broke . The bathroom now has a very red , devilish glow . It 's EXTREMELY off putting . I feel like I can hear Satan laugh at me every time I go in there to use the facilities . I don 't want him watching me do my business . But it 's his lair now , he can do what he likes ! In addition , if I look in the bathroom mirror , I look sort of possessed . My eyes look bright red . Which is weird because they look perfectly normal everywhere else . There 's an obvious solution to this . I know that . Buy a new lightbulb or two , replace the red one , then all will be better . But the one GOOD thing about having Satan take over your bathroom ? Despite the red eyes when I look in the mirror , my skin looks so much better . . . Have I sold my soul without even realising it ? ? ? : ) ( If that 's the case , I expect my life is going to start getting better anytime soon . I 'm waiting . . . ) Now for " Cheer - Me - Up Tuesday " . . . a clip from one of my favourite programmes . . . Enjoy ! ! ! I mentioned the other day that , even though I am useless when it comes to knowing what 's going on in the news , I do occasionally come across a story that I become obsessed with . It 's happened again . After I got back my holidays , my attention was caught by a headline on the internet , and then after reading the story linked to it , I started to devour all I could about it . It made me cry a bit , but I 've not been able to stop thinking of it since . It 's one of those cases where nothing is black and white , it 's all grey areas - in my view anyway . But all I can 't even imagine how I would feel if I was in the situation . Read here to see what I 'm talking about . Or try putting the term " Daniel James " into the news section of google . I never really gave the whole idea of euthanasia much thought , to be perfectly honest . It crops up in the news every once in a while , I know . And I 'm sure we covered it once or twice back at school . But it 's always something I associated with the elderly or the terminally ill . I didn 't realise it was possible to go to a clinic and actually be assisted with the process of killing oneself . I 'm not entirely sure how I feel about this . In some ways , I think it 's good that people have somewhere to go if they feel their only option is to die - if , for example , they are suffering from a degenerative disease and will ultimately lose their quality of life . But it scares me too and I 'm not sure why . Daniel James has come under some criticism for deciding that his life was no longer worth living now that he was paralysed from the chest down . In among the sympathy for his parents and for his own situation , there have been implications that he took the cowardly way out . That so many people have suffered similar injuries to him and have carried on all the same . But everyone is different . We can 't really put ourselves in his position , we can 't know what we ourselves would do in his situation . Whether we could soldier on bravely through it , or whether all we would want is to end it . If he had committed suicide , on hiPosted by Last Wednesday afternoon at a deserted bus stop in the coastal town of El Cotillo , Fuerteventura , Paula finally loses patience with the insects constantly landing on her and feasting on her flesh . . . Paula : Right , THAT ' S IT ! ! ! I 'm officially declaring war on ALL INSECTS ! ! ! I AM GOING TO KILL YOU ALL ! ! ! If one more of you little . . . SHITS come near me , you are all going to die . No second chances ! ! ! ( Paula 's mum looks at her like she is crazy , but for a moment there is a brief silence as it seems that Paula 's threat has finally got through to the irritating little beasts . Two seconds later , two more insects land on her leg ) . Paula : Argh ! What the . . . ( realisation hits ) . Shit , they probably don 't understand English . ( looks at her mum ) . Any idea what the Spanish for all that was ? ? ? ( She didn 't ) . True story . Anyway , that little scene sums up the bad point of my holiday . I am covered in insect bites . You could practically play dot to dot on both my legs . I 'm struggling not to scratch but I am so damn itchy I want to scream ! Other than that , everything was fab . I love the Canary Islands as a tourist destination and Fuerteventura is one of my favourites . My tan is okay ( I just wish I 'd done a couple of sunbed sessions between Barcelona and Fuerte as my tan had mostly faded so it was kinda like I was starting from scratch ) , and I had a lovely relaxing time . I read eight and a half of my nine books so it was a good estimate ( to be honest , I actually had to go and buy some English magazines halfway through the holiday to pace myself a bit , otherwise I think I 'd have ran out ) , had some fabulous dinners out ( if you are ever in Corralejo , I would thoroughly recommend Gibson 's Restaurant and Tiffany 's - both English restaurants which do amazing food . . . I know , I know , go to a Spanish island and find the English speakers , I 'm such a philistine , etc etc . Oh well , I 'm not going for the culture , I 'm going for the sun ! ) , and got to spend loads of time with one of my favourite people - my mum ! The weather was incredible too . It wPosted by So last week Angela from Angelaboration tagged me for a meme ( and I 've just discovered Katie tagged me too ! ) , to state six random facts about myself . I didn 't quite get around to doing it at the time , but here it is now . . . 1 . I rarely have a clue what 's going on in the news . It 's ridiculous . I mean , I consider myself to be an educated person , yet I rarely pick up a newspaper , instead turning to celebrity magazines , and I hardly ever watch the news unless I can 't be bothered changing the channel after one of my favourite programmes . I could tell you Jennifer Aniston 's latest diet but I didn 't actually even KNOW Saddam Hussein had been sentenced to death until approximately three days after he was dead ! ! ! The main way I get my news fix is if a headline catches my eye when I 'm logging into my yahoo email account BUT , if I DO see an interesting headline , I become obsessed with the story in question . So it 's probably a GOOD thing I don 't look at the news much ! ! ! 2 . I don 't really like speaking on the phone . Which is a bit weird for a girl , I 've always felt . As a kid , while all my friends would have hour long gossips at night on the phone , I just couldn 't see the point . I 'd run out of things to say , unable to tell people 's real reactions to snippets of news without being able to see their expressions . I dry up in conversation easily at the best of times , with only a voice to play off I 'm an absolute nightmare . Text messaging is another story , as is email - I can talk all I want but if I can 't be bothered replying , it 's much easier . And regular conversation , I 'm all for THAT too . But telephone conversations ? ? ? I prefer to avoid them as much as possible . . . 3 . I 've had approximately fifteen jobs . And I 'm talking full time jobs , not little bits of jobs to support myself through uni or whatever . Okay , a lot of those have been temporary positions , but most of them were at least several months long . My cv includes me working for John Lewis department store , directory enquiries , various universities in Glasgow , Scottish PowPosted by I may not be in the country right now , and I 'm hopefully having a fabulous Tuesday right now ( I 'm writing this in advance though so can 't say for definite ) but I realise not everyone else might be . So let 's get this thing started . . . You know I love " Friends " . And then another silly little video courtesy of " The IT Crowd " . . . Hope you enjoyed ! ! ! Today was an okay day once again . I got loads accomplished in the morning , went out for a nice lunch with a couple of my friends , and in the afternoon finally got some stuff sorted out workwise that 's been bugging me for a while . So feeling quite good now , despite the fact I have still tons to do to get ready for my holibags . Is taking nine books overkill ? ? ? Possibly . But probably not . Seriously , I go through them like lightning on holiday . And a couple of them are only small . I quite often plan what books I 'm taking with me like it 's a millitary operation . I know it 's sad , but if I start to run out while on holiday I get panicky . I still haven 't completely decided what to take clothes wise either . You see , generally we go half board but this time we 're going self catering . Which is kinda a relief to be honest as generally I don 't really like the buffets they tend to put on in half board places . But my mum isn 't a big eating - out person , so we will probably stay in a lot , and therefore I won 't need many dressy clothes . But I LIKE to dress up on holiday . I don 't know about you but I 'm far more likely to wear a dress , short skirt or hotpants than I am abroad than I am at any other time . Even in the summer in Scotland , I 'm more likely to stick to jeans . So holidays give me a sense of freedom , I guess , fashion - wise . Anyway , guess I 'd better get back to it now . The suitcase is flapping open emptily , I feel like it 's yelling at me . You all remember my feelings on packing , right ? ? ? I can 't believe how many times I managed to get angry today . Weirdly enough , most of it happened in the past couple of hours . For once , my main place of rage ( the office ) was actually relatively rage - free for me . Which is odd . Yesterday afternoon we had a department bonding session / update meeting , followed by a free meal at India Quay and several few drinks , followed by a few of us going to a pub called Black Sparrow , culminating in me not even remembering GETTING home last night and waking up this morning hungover and exhausted and going into an office that was pretty understaffed for most of the day ( NOT due to hangovers , I might add ! There was a lot going on . ) But weirdly enough , once I got passed the intense headache and the pain of staring at a screen when my eyes dearly wanted to be shut and experiencing R . E . M . , I actually liked the challenge . I felt like I got more of a chance to prove myself capable ; that fact I don 't often feel like I get the opportunity to do this is probably one of the things that usually gets to me . So the office wasn 't an unhappy place for me today . I know , you 're amazed . But there you go . . . Here 's the things that DID enrage or upset me : * * * * * MY SHOP ASSISTANT STALKER * * * * * Since I had my 25 pound Warehouse gift voucher I decided to nip into town after work and spend it . I DO like to spend , what can I say ! So you know the times you go into a shop and find yourself being stalked by the security guard , like they think you are a common thief and need to keep an eye on you ? Well , the shop assistant stalker is similar in nuisance levels , but can actually AFFECT your shopping more , which is what truly frustrates me . I was just wandering the shop , approaching a rack of clothes that caught my eye , flicking casually through . . . and the shop assistant would appear next to me , clutching a heap of clothes she was returning from the changing room rack . And OF COURSE the item of clothing she was trying to return at that precise moment , WAS EXACTLY THE ITEM OF CLOTHING I WAS LOOKING AT as I flippePosted by Last week my sister and brother - in - law ( MY brother - in - law , not HERS . One , that would be sick and two , I don 't have a husband ! ) were in Gran Canaria . * One morning , I was on my way out the door to work , feeling a bit disorganised . ( Not much of a change there ) . I grabbed my purse and phone , text my flatmate quickly to ask if she was ready , * * stuck my make - up in my bag and hunted down my jacket . As I was doing my usual anally - retentive ritual of checking I had my keys and work fob in my bag , my flatmate replied to say she was indeed ready . I quickly deleted the message , as if on autopilot and , without putting my phone back to the main screen where it would automatically lock , I slung my phone into my bag with my purse and headed towards my bedroom door . As I went to open the door I could hear a distant ringing noise , like a phone . " Hmm , that must be one of my flatmates , " I thought . " That 's why it 's so quiet . " Next thing I heard a little voice . I was sure it was saying " Hello ? Paula ? Paula ? " It appeared to be coming from my bag . There was a VOICE inside my bag . Actually for the time of morning , I remarkably put two and two together very quickly . Upon deleting my flatmate 's message , my phone had settled on the next message , one sent by my sis the night before , and because it is a touch screen , had managed to phone it . My sister had been woken up at seven am abroad by her family ringing and had obviously panicked and thought something bad had happened . In the meantime , I had started to think I was going insane . . . This morning , I was sitting in work when I thought heard a tiny little voice . " Not again , " I said aloud , and leaned down to my bag . I was convinced I had managed to phone someone again , but I was wrong , I had clearly imagined it . " Man , I thought my bag was talking to me again , " I said to my colleague . He sniggered . " Perhaps best not to say that again , " he suggested . " People might start to wonder about you . " You mean they 're not already ? ? ? Cheer - Me - Up Tuesday time ? ? ? Here is an old MTV advert which used to never fail P I looked outside this afternoon and realised , to my shock , it was getting dark . At 3 . 45 pm ! ! ! ( To be honest , this was more to do with the fact that it was raining than anything else , but it reminded me that summer truly has gone . ) For some reason , autumn and winter always sneaks up on me . I don 't know why . Perhaps because summer is never REALLY summer in Glasgow . You get the odd heatwave early on in the summer ( occasionally the best heatwave actually surprises you in April ) and although it 's rarely COLD in winter , it DOES rain a lot . Therefore the day I look out the window and realise how dark it is for the time of day , it 's only to be expected , but a bit of a shock all the same . The other reason I can always tell winter is kicking in , other than the weather cooling drastically and the sun heading for bed early , is the fact that my mood takes a definite shift downward . I know , surprising right ? I bet you thought I was this sunny and positive and optimistic all the time , huh ? Lol . But seriously , I do firmly subscribe to the theory that the sun affects your mood . Therefore I 'm far happier in the summer than I am in , say , January . When it 's nice outside , I want to be outside . I get more fresh air . I feel healthier . When the sun shines , I can sit in the park with a book or a friend and BASK . ( Admittedly I get the opportunity to do this rarely , but it is FAR rarer in the winter . ) I have a suntan ! ! ! ( A proper one , not one created by risking my health in a sunbed , or a fake one that smells like stale biscuits ) . I 'm more content . When winter hits , I feel down a lot more . And it 's already affecting my health , I feel . I seem to be becoming one big allergy recently . My rings are irritating my fingers . My neck is breaking out in dry red patches . I bruise more easily apparently ( seriously , that bruise on my bum from falling off the bar stool more than a week ago is STILL massive and dark and three bruises mysteriously appeared on the inside of my arm earlier ) . And my state of mind is affected . I get upset about the silly things , sweaPosted by . . . not pictures of MOI , you 'll probably be glad to hear ( I think I was a little bit the worse for wear most of the weekend and therefore any pictures of me may have to be burned - damn this digital camera age ! ) but pictures of my presents and cards . Excited ? ? ? Come on , you are just a little , right ? ? ? Anyway , here goes . . . A selection of pretty jewelery and accessories given to me by some of my friends . You 're jealous , right ? ? ? Oh , there 's more to come . . . ; ) Pampering goodies and some white wine . . . people know me all too well evidently . . . A Swarovski ( I MAY have got the spelling wrong on that ) necklace courtesy of my friend D . A very good choice . . . Some reading material for my upcoming holiday ( one of my favourite authors as well ! ) , make - up and something to brighten up my desk . . . providing I can find some space on it ! ! ! Some fabby NineWest shoes courtesy of my lovely sister ( she also got me a nice top too , but I forgot to take a picture of that ) . I 'm particularly fond of the ones on the right . Unfortunately as they are a size three ( that was the only size available ) and I 'm a size four , it 's gonna be a bit of a squeeze to wear them . I may just have to just appreciate them by LOOKING at them and not actually WEARING them . . . More sweets and junk food than I know what to do with . Think someone has an evil plot to make me fat ! ! ! AND NOW . . . drum roll please . . . for some of the cards ! ! ! The first two come courtesy of the fabulous moonpig . com . . . From my friend V . She also got me an awesome one from this site last year and converted me to the moonpig religion . I know I promised no pics of me . Okay , I kinda lied , but this is a CARD with pictures of me ON it , so it doesn 't REALLY count , right ? This is from D ( she who gave me the Swarovski necklace ) . It 's pretty damn fab , huh ? ? ? By far the funniest card I received this year and possibly the funniest card I EVER got . This one was from my office . Violent Veg cards are brilliant ! ( I also got a 25 pound Warehouse voucher from my team at work . You know I ' P I woke up this morning with a pounding head , a spinning room , and the distinct feeling that something had crawled into my mouth and died overnight . I guess that 's what I get for consuming too much rose wine last night . . . and not paying for a single drink , which normally I would feel bad about but for once it 's probably okay since the night out WAS for my birthday . Anyway , it 's now 11 . 30 am and I feel normal ( ish ) now . Still in bed though . In my underwear . Apparently pyjamas were too much hassle last night . Can 't really remember getting home but I have a feeling it may have involved a taxi and the chippy . I also have a vague recollection of the lights flashing on and off repeatedly in the Lansdowne , which probably means we were chucked out on our arses at closing time . Strictly speaking I 'm not officially 29 until this evening ; I was born at eight something pm . But it feels weird to know that 's how old I 'm going to be . I used to think 29 was such an OLD age . I couldn 't imagine ever being it ( mainly because I was convinced as a kid that I was going to die before I was 25 for some reason ) but I DID think if I did reach the age , that I would have accomplished far more with my life . I mean I have good friends , a steady job and a roof over my head , but sometimes I think I should have far more than that . I 'm just not sure exactly what it is that I think I 'm missing . Maybe I 'll work it out soon . Anyway , in honour of it being my birthday , I decided to post a challenge I did on ciao . com a few years back . It was basically devised by a fellow ciaoer who had looked up all of the famous people he shared a birthday with and then wrote his feelings on it . I thought it looked like fun , so tried it myself . It might be a bit out of date now ( in fact I KNOW it is ! The celebrity ages are wrong but couldn 't be bothered fixing them , plus one of them is now dead I think ! ) but revisiting it again amused me , so here it is . . . While browsing ciao the other day ( rather than actually doing WORK , as usual ! ) I came across this rather intriguinP

I enjoy running in the mud . Frequently , I even enjoy running through standing water - especially if my feet are a bit tired or sore . As a result , I have days where I end a run with almost as much muck in my shoes as on them . I started wearing gaiters a few years ago , with Inov - 8 's DebriSoc - a sock with built - in gaiter . When the sock part finally met its holey demise , I cut off the sock and kept using the gaiter . Last year , before the River Ayr Way Challenge , I finally replaced the decrepit old things with a new pair of Inov - 8 Debris Gaiter ( tm ) 32 . They were partially successful , but they are dreadfully dull to look at , and , ever the magpie , I have been eyeing up the wantonly excessive decoration of the Dirty Girl gaiters that are now easily available in the UK via The ULTRAmarathon Running Store . Thanks to my fabulous parents - in - law , on Boxing Day I had the chance to test out the Dirty Girls , so here 's my view of how Inov - 8 and Dirty Girl stack up on a wet and filthy trail run . The Inov - 8 Debris Gaiter is pretty simple : put on gaiter , put on shoe , slide elastic bands under the shoe and hook the tab onto your laces - what could be easier ? They cover the lace knots nicely on most shoes , which is helpful in mud as well as long wet grass . They 're also fairly absorbant , which can be a hassle if there 's a lot of water as well as grit on the route . The ankle cuff is a bit bulky , which can result in quite warm ankles if you 're out on a summer run . With a price ranging from £ 11 to £ 15 , and coming in any colour you like , so long as it 's black , these gaiters keep the mud out at a good price . The Dirty Girl Gaiters stand out visually , with over 20 patterns from which to choose . The attachment to the shoe is very straight - forward . There 's a one - time ( or now - and - then ) process requiring you to stick a bit of self - adhesive velcro onto the back of your shoeand then wait a day . To wear , put on the gaiter , put on the shoe , then velcro the back of the gaiter to the shoe and hook the front to the bottom shoelace . They are made from a basic polyester / lycra blend , so are a little stretchy but not too clingy . The gaiter is also very light , even on a very wet day . They don 't absorb much water , and are reasonably cool . I comfortably wore mine ( without trail shoes ) around the house for an afternoon to check the fit while I waited for the velcro to set on my shoes , and hardly noticed them . On the down side , the cost of all the pretty colours is an extra few £ on the pricetag . Things to be aware of about both brands : if you wear shoes without laces ( e . g . most Five - Fingers ) , you are going to have to find something to hook the gaiters to at the front . An elastic band around a toe or two will do in a pinch . If you wear La Sportiva shoes , you will also struggle to find a lace to hook onto . I successfully used the elastic band from my old DebriSoc around the forefoot . Nic made a fixing point by running a safety pin along the top of her lace - gaiter with good effect . With a bit of time and fishing line , I expect the best method will be to stitch in a loop at the bottom of the lace gaiter . If you are more concerned about grass , pebbles , and dry debris than mud and wet grit , then the Inov - 8 gaiter is certainly sufficient for your needs and gives good value . For all - round use , the Dirty Girl wins hands down on ability to withstand a wet run without adding to the weight on your feet . They have a tighter weave , so also kept out more fine grit than the Inov - 8 gaiters . If you 're going to be spending any length of time in the wet , and the current weather pattern suggests we all will be , then I would suggest spending the extra on the Dirty Girl . And if you don 't fancy colourful feet , you can always go for the olive green or nearly black options . Ah , December ! That time of year when we look back and pretend that the previous 12 months formed some kind of continuous experience that will magically end , be packaged up , and replaced by another year - long block . Life , if we 're lucky , lasts quite a long time , so like any good long run , we break it into manageable pieces , taking and planning one step at a time . Every now and then , when things are going well , it 's possible to take a step outside of this artificial time line and see that everything is connected , all our future somehow dependent on the miles that have come before . We transcend the map , the GPS , and the strange taste caused by too many gels , and everything somehow fits into the great vision . That 's usually about the time I trip over a tree root . How did 2012 fit into the progression that is my grand plan of life and running ? Let 's put on the hindsight goggles and have a look . I ended 2011 with two predictions for 2012 . Prediction 1 : the dry weather we 'd been enjoying could not possibly continue - rather unfortunately , I was right , and am now musing about downsizing to a houseboat before the house becomes a boat . Prediction 2 : a good early season could lead to a tilt at running the whole Cotswold Way during the summer - this never really made it onto the priority list . 2012 started as a busy racing year . The first half of the year included 15 races of distances ranging from 1 to 34 miles . I ran 100 race miles fewer than in 2011 , due to the reduction in the number of marathons . I also raced at a minute and a half per mile faster , again due in part to fewer marathons . By adding ultras to the calendar , I had an incentive to boost my training miles , logging 50 % more in 2012 ( ~ 1800 for the year ) . Somehow , the second half of the year seemed to include all of the " A " races for 2012 . That hadn 't been the plan , it 's just how the desire , energy , and ambition played out . By mid - July , every race that had a comparator was a " best " of some kind . For standard distance races , I had picked up a new PB at 1mi , 5km , and half marathon . For races I had done before , I picked up course bests , including the two ultras where I beat my equivalent 2011 marathon times as part of the ultras . 2012 was shaping up rather nicely . I was successfully building on 2011 , which had indeed been a " breakthrough " year . Looking forward to the first " A " race , at Nairn , I started to get a little ambitious and before I knew it , I was targeting a sub 1 : 30 half ( nearly made it ! ) , my first 40 + mi race , and a new marathon PB on one of the toughest road courses in the country ( it 's not actually that bad - just one tough hill towards the end ) . All through the fun of racing , there was an undercurrent of trying to figure out how to make running more than just a hobby . During the summer , we launched Cotswold Running as a venture to organise races and eventually other running - related experiences . The enterprise started well , with an enjoyable event at Broadway Tower ( according to those who slogged through the mud ) , and will continue into 2013 with other fun challenges on the cards . Having stared back with the hindsight goggles on , 2012 looks like a year full of enormous change . I was happily racing faster at all distances and running further than ever before . Working life headed in a completely different direction . What was going on ? But , if we ignore the artificial barrier that is January 1st , the year is simply a bridge from what came before to what lies ahead . The running achievements flowed nicely as a result of the base laid in 2011 , and have set me up for a potentially exciting 2013 . April 's Highland Fling is inked in as the spring " A " race , and a few other interesting races are finding their way onto the plan . Career - wise , what appears from the outside to be a complete divergence from the past is really just another stepping stone along the way , building on years of varied experiences and leading to - well , we 'll just have to see where it leads . As the upper in my previous right trail shoe decreased its attachment to the lower portion of the shoe , I started to look out for a new model and brand . Nic has been quite happy in her choice of La Sportiva Crosslites for several hundred miles , but when I tried a pair , the fit wasn 't really what I was looking for . I 've been wearing Inov - 8s since 2008 , which makes it tough for anything new to get past the " first impression " test . I liked the upper and the rock plate , but something wasn 't quite " right " . So , when I had the opportunity to try on a pair of Crosslite XC at the Snowdonia Marathon mini - expo , I took the chance and was pleasantly surprised . The next thing I knew , I had a pair of shoes tucked under the wardrobe waiting for the untimely demise of my Roclites . After my trip to the Wrekin last month , the time had finally come to try something new . Carrying my new shoes in my backpack , I ran for my favourite proving ground - Bredon Hill . My preferred approach up the hill begins with a steady track around a ploughed field , carries on through a firm pasture , slogs through a load of boggy muck , up a wetland that was like a shallow stream after all the rain , up a limestone track , and along a path that alternates between grass , slippery roots , mud , and rock . Then it 's a nice circuit of the hill and back down . In a little over 7 miles , this route offers a fantastic mix of terrains and textures to test out a new pair of shoes . The first thing you notice when you put on the Crosslite XC is that you can 't get to the bottom of your laces . Adjusting the tension requires an old - fashioned tug on the ends and some hope that you 'll get it right . It took a few tries , especially with cold fingers ( I 'd had a nice , if very cold , road run to reach my testing ground ) . After a couple of stops , I got the laces right and was able to tuck them into the gaiter . The gaiter comes up high enough to provide a good anti - muck layer above the most vulnerable grit access point , but not quite far enough to allow you to completely hide the knots . Being able to tuck away the loops in the laces should help to keep the shoes from being untied by running through long grass , but the knots still get caked with mud as you find with any other shoe that needs to be tied . The rubberized toe box and reinforced upper proved suitably robust against the various rocks , sticks , and roots I encountered on my way . My feet kept reasonably dry when running through small amounts of mud , and the shoes seemed to drain quickly when I went through anything particularly deep . I never felt like the shoe was holding an unnecessary amount of the water I was running through . The Crosslite XC is billed as an aggressive fell and trail shoe , designed for wet and slippery conditions . The outsole bears out the description . The lugs are angled in all directions to support forward motion - the outer lugs on the forefoot are angled to resist sliding away from the centre line , the main forefoot lugs are angled to grip and pull through as you go up hill and to push mud away as you go down hill , and at the back you can see the lugs turned around , so they offer extra grip as your heel digs into the shifting earth / scree on a messy descent . The " FriXion " rubber compound is a soft rubber , ideal for wet rock . The grip on wet limestone descents was unexpectedly good , comparing quite favourably to the popular Inov - 8 Mudclaw . The harder sole on the standard Crosslite is not quite as sticky across wet rock , but wears well on the road sections of a route - I 'm not sure how long the XC will cope with the inevitable road running between trails , but the extra stability on wet limestone is worth it on my local trails . I felt incredibly well connected to the ground on my descent through wet leaves , rock , roots , and grass , with good grip throughout . Towards the end of my run , I tested the built - in gaiters with a knee - deep mis - step . Very little filth got into the shoe , which made a nice change from my previous pair . I did manage to sweep some grit into the shoes as I washed off the mud in a stream , but nothing more than could be expected with the vigour of my swishing about . Happily , the shoes also released the water as I ran , so there was no squelching after just a field or two . As I sat to change back into road shoes for the 10K run home from the test , I encountered an unexpected bonus . Although I hadn 't really noticed the fit once I got the lace tension right , the Crosslite XC heel box fits me perfectly , with no slipping . My feet typically tear out the heel box cushioning in all of my shoes , but these gripped in just the right places - to the extent that I struggled to get the slimy things off my very wet feet ! In summary , the Crosslite XC is an excellent fell shoe , great for wet and slippery conditions , with a great fit . It handles rough terrain as well as its better - known rivals , and feels like it will last a bit longer . It seems like La Sportiva are phasing it out ( I can 't find it on their website any more ) , so it 's worth stocking up before they disappear entirely . That said , based on my experience so far , I 'd happily consider any new light - weight replacement the manufacturers come out with . Mid - life update : It 's nearing the end of February , and I 've put nearly 200 miles on these shoes , so I thought it useful to update the review . Mostly , I have been running in mud - up muddy hills , down muddy hills , through wet and muddy fields . The longest I 've spent in the shoes is around 6 . 5 hours . They really do drain well . I 've managed 1 dry run in that time , and the shoes held up well . My feet didn 't get too hot , but I must say that after 20 miles , I was feeling a bit battered by the combination of already - tired feet , minimal cushioning and the fairly rigid sole . I 'm quite happy to run on a minimally cushioned shoe , but I would have liked a bit more freedom for my feet for a run of that distance given the amazing lack of soft ground on that day . As with nearly every shoe I 've worn this winter , I am seeing some heavy wear around the toe box . But , unlike my Inov - 8s , I haven 't had any holes developing in the Crosslite XC . The fabric is pretty robust . The test will be whether it separates from the sole after another hundred miles . So far , the signs are that the shoe will last well . This week , I 've mostly not felt like running . It doesn 't happen often , but when it does , I listen to my body and get in a bit of extra rest . The benefit of occasionally taking a break is having the energy to get out and throw in an extra race as a reward ! So , with friends Mitch , Roy , and Chris , I headed out to run all ' round The Wrekin . I had missed out on the race last year , due to injury at Abingdon , so was happy to have a chance to try it out this year . This race is a category A fell race , which means it 's steep ( average 50m / km of climb ) . It also means there will be plenty of top class competitors there to make sure I don 't get lost as I follow their footprints . The route was very well marked , well marshalled , but could have done with a few more slow runners to pad my ego when I look at the results . We started in the middle of a wood with temperatures hovering around 4C and quickly headed along a narrow , undulating track before the first ascent of The Wrekin . It wasn 't particularly difficult , just a case of getting up by alternating between a run and a fastish hike . By the time I hit the top , I was warm , but wasn 't about to take off my gloves or headwear - I wanted a little extra protection in case I took a tumble on the rather steep scree slope that was just around the corner . On top of the hill , the sun was shining bright and I briefly considered the decision to keep my shades on my head to have been correct . Then , we were back into the woods and they started to bounce along as the route headed down the hill . It 's been a few months since I 've raced hard in the hills , and it showed . My feet weren 't moving as quickly as I would have liked when I got to the scree slope , but I managed the first half quite happily . The sliding , jumping over roots , and general high - concentration , high - turnover descent was a lot of fun . I did cop out at about half way and steady myself against a tree , trying to clear my eyes that were watering from a mixture of cold air and adrenaline . Unfortunately , shortly after I resumed my run / shuffle / ski / jump down the hill , I found myself facing up the hill , sliding feet - first towards the bottom , somehow having pitched forward , landed on my side , rolled onto my back , and then onto my front as I tried to stop the slide and get back to my feet . I expect it looked spectacular , but it also left my shades a few yards up the hill and I had to trudge back up to get them . Mitch looked up when he got to the bottom in time to see me stand up , arms aloft , as though I had just completed a fantastic dismount from the pommel horse . It wasn 't the most serious fall , but apparently it had style ! The next couple of miles , gently climbing , were pretty unpleasant . I 'd winded myself a bit in the fall , and found it a struggle to run much faster than a gentle jog . When we reached the 1 : 3 clamber back up the hill , I was feeling pretty beaten up by the course . Still , by 4 . 5 miles , we had 2 of the 3 ascents complete and it was due to be plain sailing , surely . Once again , we headed down the hill and into the woods . The track was a little less steep than the previous ascent , but full of roots , rocks , leaves , and other obstacles to keep the mind sharp . The final climb was steep and steady , but by then I was starting to feel OK again and just worked along with the group of runners that had been catching me since my fall . The final descent was incredibly challenging and full of trip hazards , and I would have loved to watch some of the more experienced fell runners as they passed me . I caught glimpses of very fast - moving legs , but mostly tried to focus on where my slightly plodding feet were going to land . Finally , with a mile or so to go , we were back onto normal , undulating trail , and I was able to pick up the pace and try to pull a bit of time back and finish 71st , around 1 / 3 down the field . I enjoyed the mini buffet at the end while cleaning my wounds and waiting for the results . All told , a bit of fun , a bit of sun , and a race I may just go back and try to finish without hitting the deck . On January 1st , 2012 , I entered the Snowdonia Marathon . A few weeks later , I bought a pair of Inov - 8 Road - X ( tm ) 233s , with the intention of easing down another 3mm of heel drop in my road shoes . With a spring full of trail racing , the 233s lasted longer than expected , with only around 400 miles on them as summer came to an end . And then I looked at the course and the location again , and realised that I would never be able to blast down a wet , grassy , slippery , rainy trail in a shoe with virtually no traction on wet grass . They would be great for 24 . 5 miles of the race , but the 1 . 5 miles where I intended to recover nearly all of the time I would lose on the final climb , so I needed to be certain of my footing . What to do ? After searching for a low profile shoe with a bit of grip in a brand I could slip straight into , I opted to run my annual road marathon in trail shoes . After all , I 'd run almost all of my long runs during the year in trail shoes , so why not ? That brings me to the F - Lite ( tm ) 230s . The 230s are listed on Inov - 8 's website as a fitness shoe that 's also designed for hard - pack trails and tarmac . Oddly , though , they aren 't listed among the Inov - 8 road shoe range . So , I checked with SouthLakesGuy on Twitter ( he knows a bit about Inov - 8s ) , and he confirmed they are great all - rounders . I only had two concerns before they arrived - the outsole and the upper . The F - Lite sole is incredibly flexible , to the point where it felt like they would bend any direction my foot wanted to go . When I wore them on a 21 mile practice run , it was like going out in my slippers - I could feel every bit of road . To me , that 's a good thing . It has a little bit of tread , in Inov - 8 's sticky rubber compound , but nothing overly agressive . So , the outsole passed the initial test . Recently , the uppers on my Roclite ( tm ) 285 trail shoes have shown a bit of weakness against the strain across the forefoot , tearing away from the toe reinforcement on my right foot . The 230 upper , with a less rigid reinforcement , molds better to my foot and fits much more like the Road - X , so has not had the same problem . My worry that the upper wouldn 't survive the training proved unfounded , thankfully . Update Jan 24 , 2013 : Amazingly , with less than 400mi on the clock , the upper has separated from the lower . It 's so disappointing , because these have been great on the slushy pavements and snow . Yes , they 're getting on a bit , but I 'd rather hoped the upper would last as long as the sole , since I have been almost exclusively on the road with these . This seems to be an undesired and recurring issue . So , the shoes seemed fine and dandy , but how did they do on the day ? First , having very little weight on my feet over the course of 3 . 5 hours was great . The less my legs had to pick up , the better . Relative to the 233s , it 's not much difference , but the alternatives I 'd been looking at were in the region of 30 % heavier , which starts to count after a while . I have tested the 230s on wet grass and mud , and they are more effective than the Road - X , but I wouldn 't advise taking them on a long muddy run , as they really have only as much grip as any standard road shoe would in the conditions . Comfort - wise , I caught a sharp rock at about 5 miles and briefly wished for a shoe with a rock plate as I continued racing down the rocky path . The pain dissipated once the route took us back onto the road , but the rocky track wasn 't very nice . I like to feel the ground when I run , but if you 're going to spend more than a mile or two on rocky trails , I would advise something a bit more rugged . For pure road , the extra little bit of cushion under the balls of the feet you get in the Road - X is a nice change . In terms of fit , of my 3 pairs of Inov - 8s , the F - Lite fits best . There are no pinch points like I experienced with the 285 , and the heel cup fits much better than the 233 . There have been no hotspots or blisters with any of them , so that 's not really an issue . Normally , I only write about my own efforts or occasionally Nicola 's . Last weekend , for the first time in a while , I crossed the fence to the dark , hidden side of running : race directing . The majority of that activity will remain dark and hidden - races are much like sausages : you enjoy them more if you don 't see them being made . But , here are a few reflections on the day . The routes for the Broadway Tower Marathon & Half Marathon have been under design for quite some time . The original route was planned in the spring and in place early in the summer , with the diversion ( the one I designed , not the unplanned ones ) decided a bit more recently . They include some of the most beautiful views the area has to offer , even on a rainy day . On a nice day , the route can be absolutely stunning . Over the past few years , these trails have been fantastic to run on , with occasional slippery bits and plenty of good hard - packed , often rock hard ground . With the ridiculous amount of rain we 've had locally this summer , some of the fields turned to sticky , muddy , horrible mires - especially in the 3rd quarter of the marathon course . Having run nearly all of the route on the Wednesday and Thursday before the race , I am full of admiration for all of the competitors . Conditions underfoot were tough out there on Saturday ( but not a patch on how bad it was amid Sundays downpours ! ) , and if the sun hadn 't come out I dare say we would have had a regular transfer service running from the 20mi check point to the race base . In every event , there are plenty of unexpected surprises on the day , for runners and organisers . I can 't imagine how difficult it would have been for everyone without the telephone safety net . A few people needed some extra directions and reassurance they were on the right route and phoned to check . A few probably should have made calls but didn 't . For anyone planning to run on the trails , whether racing or training , it 's always a good idea to take a phone . A quick text or call to say " I 'm lost , " " I 'm OK , just really slow , " " I 'm really cold and need some help " can be the difference between a good day and a disastrous one . Personally , I 've used my phone for all of the above . It 's also worth knowing / remembering that a text message will send in low signal better than a phone call will connect . This weekend , Nic and I joined our friends Roy and Chris for a relaxing run around Llanberis and surrounding villages , at the Snowdonia Marathon . The story of why we were there goes back just over a year , to my failed attempt at a PB in the 2011 Abingdon Marathon . And once we got there , we enjoyed what can only be described in a once - in - a - lifetime experience . Cast your mind back to October 2011 , when I was disappointed that my body , while clearly in the best condition it ever had been in , failed me for a second year as I attempted to break 3 : 20 . I knew I needed to put a lot more focus on my core strength and add more long , fast running to my schedule . Then , I had to write a few " for fun " races off my schedule while I recovered the minor niggles . It 's safe to say that I wasn 't in the best frame of mind for scheduling a fast road marathon for the third straight year . If we fast - forward slightly to January 1st , 2012 , when I came back from a slightly " merry " 5k jog to clear the fog , I had a text from Roy notifying me that entries had opened , and would be closing very quickly indeed . So , with both Nic and me still somewhat judgement - impaired from bringing in the New Year , we decided it would be a great first road marathon for Nic . I decided that I 'd had enough tilting at the 3 : 20 windmill and would enjoy doing a road race somewhere " just for the fun of it " . Then , the magical racing year that has been 2012 happened . As part of my ultra preparation , I had increased the core work , added a 4th run to my standard running schedule , and was enjoying the benefits of consistent training . By the end of August , every race I had run was either a course best ( trail ) or personal best ( 1mi , 1 . 3mi , 5km , 1 / 2mara ) . So , I started to look at 2011 Marathoneryri times from runners I know and compare against that 3 : 32 from Amsterdam to see if there was any chance of keeping my streak alive with another road PB . I concluded that it would be tight , but possible , and put a little more work into finding a sustainable uphill running effort for the final hill of the race . The idea of cracking my PB , set on a pancake - flat course , among the hills of Snowdonia struck me as the sort of convoluted achievement that I particularly enjoy . After all , a PB is always nice , but setting it with an extra 2500ft of ascent is so much better ! Along comes race day , and everything is set - after a few flakes of snow overnight , the sun came up to bring that rarest of beasts , a cold , bright , and dry day . Everyone was amazed - it was the first clear day the race had seen in many years . The previous 4 had all been held in truly wretched conditions . After my warm up ( yes , even for a marathon ! ) , I made a quick trip to the car to dig out the sunglasses to deal with that funny thing showing between the clouds . The race , in all , was an exercise in guesswork - there were no sections of the course where I could judge whether my pace would get me the time I wanted , because it 's such an undulating route . I started the first half mile slowly ( 8 : 30mm ) and just kept an easy effort going to the bottom of the first hill . As the road went down , the pace got faster , and when we hit the hill just after two miles , I just kept the rpms high and spun up like I would on a bike . I removed my Buff , pushed up my sleeves , and unzipped my top and just kept ticking along . Just after 4 . 6 miles , it was time for the downhill . Barring a few interruptions to climb up some very small hills , that downhill lasted a good 8 . 5 miles . Most road races don 't boast views like this ! Totally unable to tell if I was running fast enough or too fast based on pace , I went for the logic of " if I 'm hot , it 's too fast " . I tried to keep my effort level just high enough to feel warm , using my sleeves , zip , Buff , and gloves to manage the changing effects of the sun and wind . At half way , I was on 3 : 20 pace , which I knew was an unrealistic expectation because the second half has more ascent than the first half . So , I mentally allowed myself a net 5 - minute loss for the final hill , did my best not to lose too much on the steady drag from 13 - 15 miles ( I lost 2 minutes ) , and kept repeating the mantra " every minute not lost is a minute off your PB ! " for the 10km in between . This is the bit where Nic got bored of running on the road , so I 'm glad to have had a goal to help me keep focus . The climb at Waunfawr hurt , as expected . Hamstrings and calves started to rebel , and eventually I was pushed to a speed - walk to use some different muscles and try to stretch out the screaming ones . The run - walk strategy got me up the hill and I finally got to enjoy the final descent into Llanberis , although I got a gentle reminder that the legs have to be as ready as the head when I clipped a rock on the trail and spent a few seconds on the ground . Just a short burst down to Llanberis and it 's all over ! With a mad sprint down the mountain for 1 . 3 miles , I clawed back enough of the walking time to finish in 163rd with 3 : 31 : 16 - 70 seconds faster than I 'd run on the flat roads of the Dutch capitol . Twisted , for sure , but also evidence that two years of ( mostly ) consistent marathon and ultra racing are really paying off . A personal best on a course with 2500ft of climbing , a sunny day at the Snowdonia Marathon - it 's a combination that will almost certainly never happen again . When I entered this race , I briefly anticipated writing a reflection filled with discomfort , fighting through extreme lows , and the glory of pushing my body harder than I ever dreamed possible . Then , I shuddered , put all anticipation of anything other than a smiley start and a relieved finish out of my head and pretended that everything would be fine . After all , I kept saying , the race starts at the head of a river and ends at the mouth - it 's all down hill , right ? The day started cool and grey , as forecast , with moderate winds ( a big improvement on the gales and driving rain of the previous day ) . Nic 's parents kindly agreed to be crew for the day - their first ever such assignment , which saw Jeff cruelly taken from the clutches of his bed far too early for his day off . We arrived at the start at 8AM , to find RD Anneke preparing to receive runners . Many would register on the bus from the finish . Those of us lucky enough to have crew ( and / or like me , likely to lose their breakfast on a bus ) picked up our numbers in the tiny car park above Glenbuck . As usual , our target was to arrive early , relax , and have a bite to eat while waiting for the start . So , when we got out of the car and I looked at the delightful woodlands surrounding us , I noticed that there were no facilities other than the boxes waiting to receive our drop bags . I realised this really was going to be a pretty relaxed atmosphere . The registration area began to fill as the buses arrived , while Nic and I realised that we weren 't particularly nervous . Considering this would be my first time over 40 miles , and her first time over 28 , the chilled vibe was obviously rubbing off on us . With about 15 minutes to spare , I had a short jog to make sure my shoes were well tied , took some pics , and was ready to go . The race started with a great descent to get us all up to speed and quickly took us to into the open moorland that made up the first 10 miles of the route . Good , steady descents , a few short hills to break up the rhythm a little , and before I knew it , I was sheltering behind a few runners at about 45 seconds per mile faster than my preferred early pace . With the steady headwinds , the firm footing , and the lack of any notable hills , I decided to stick with it for a while , to see how things went . After all , I 've not really been used to running for any length of trail without some enforced walking breaks , so I wasn 't really sure how I would react to 8 : 45 minute miles . Had it been a flattish road race , I would have been quite happy with the conservative speed , but for the trails , sense said I was going to have to slow down at some point . For those not familiar with the race or the route , The River Ayr Way Challenge is organised by the East Ayrshire County Council - in particular the Countryside Services team . It 's pretty low key , well supported with regular water / feed / chat stations , and runs along the length of the River Ayr Way . The rangers had to put in some extra hard work this year , recovering / re - routing some sections of the RAW where it had disappeared after this winter 's ice floes and heavy rains . In many places , they had even been out strimming in the days before the race . Compared to what I normally run on , the path felt practically manicured ! We were truly spoiled in that respect . The early stages of the route set the tone for the whole of the RAW . There are pretty views in all directions , but few " wow ! " moments . Early on , we enjoyed miles of open moors , misty light on the distant hills , and plenty of slippery little wooden bridges to test the coordination . After 11 miles , my right calf ( this month 's muscular liability ) started to tug , so I eased back a bit . I didn 't fancy running another 30 miles on a cramping leg , and hoped that putting less strain on the leg would do the trick . By the time I hit the first check - in point with Jeff and Maggie , the leg was doing OK and I was running fairly freely . I was also 15 minutes ahead of schedule after only 17 miles , and wondering how bad the payback would be . The early moorland was giving way to wooded slopes as the river carved through the low hills . Easy running was about to take a back seat . The tough patch came , a bit later than expected , at around 25 miles . We had finally had some hills - all short , all sharp , with plenty of steps to make running difficult . Climbing up and down through the riverside woods had killed the pace and my legs . My right quad and ITB started to object , colouring my language nicely with each new staircase . Alas , no train to distract from the sore legs The difficult patch carried on into the new addition for this year 's running , a diversion near Stair where the old path unfortunately has now joined with the river itself . We slogged up a short hill through a nice , soupy pasture where the " mud " had a nice oily sheen to it . Best not to think about it all , really , but I did laugh that I had finally reached some trail that was like what I 've been enjoying throughout this rather moist summer . The cattle at the top of the hill looked on bemused , and I was happy to reach them with both shoes still on my feet . A couple of miles later , though , we ran through ankle deep water for long enough to wash the shoes . I splashed along , enjoying the cold water on my feet and keeping my hands above my head so I would still be happy to eat with them later . Unfortunately , I also managed to wash some large bits of grit into the shoes , in spite of my gaiters . By this time , I was 30 miles in , a little cranky , and more than just a little confused by anything that required much thought . At the 32 - mile check point , luckily , the in - laws were waiting with some extra brain cells for me to use . I stopped for a drink and a little chat , forgetting about my gritty feet . After a minute or two , I suddenly remembered that my shoes were full of ick . So , I sat down to empty my shoes and found that the grit had helped me to mangle my socks . With toes poking through the end , I knew another 10 miles would be manageable , but possibly a bit irritating , and stared blankly at my feet . Maggie asked if I had any socks in my end - of - race bag ( in the car boot ) . It took far too long for my brain to kick into gear , but I did have a spare pair for after the run , so was able to change socks . I ditched the gaiters while I was shoeless , and suddenly felt a lot lighter without the extra layer of wet fabric . Getting up wasn 't easy . The rest while I tended my feet did me some good , but it also cooled me off . So , as I walked up the next hill , I changed into my spare t - shirt . The clouds were firmly in place , so I didn 't need to worry about getting too warm as the afternoon continued . At 34 miles , I grabbed a drink and a bag of jelly worms from my drop bag , and carried on . With only 7 miles left , I knew I would be able to get it together and finish , even though I had lost any hope of a 7 - hour time . I always carry a phone for emergencies on a long run , and feared the worst when mine rang as I left the check point - surely Nic had fallen , broken her arms and legs , and was being rushed to hospital . Clearly , rational thought was taking a nap . Thankfully , the only problem was that , as tired as I was , I was still running better than the car . Jeff was calling to let me know that my bag might make it to the line before my crew . Gradually , I gathered myself and started to push on , trying to catch one person at a time in a battle of " who can slow down the least " . The underfoot conditions eased again as we neared the finish . With firm paths , tracks , and road , I was able to get back into a consistent running rhythm , getting back to 10 - minute miles for the final few . It 's easy to get down about working so hard to run so much slower than my normal As I approached the finish , I heard someone say " there 's only about 100 yards left " and put on a " sprint " for the line . At nearly 7 : 15 , I finished 20 minutes slower than my " good day " or " plan A " time , but inside of my " plan B " - pretty good for my first foray over 40 miles . If I had only managed a few minutes faster , I would even have beaten the car back to the finish - the issues had been dealt with and our ace crew had made it just in time . After getting cleaned up and refuelling a bit , I headed back up the course to cheer Nic into the finishing straight . Luckily for her , I had about half a mile of the route in view , and could pick her out in time to position myself for a good bellow of encouragement followed by a picture . Her plan B was " don 't finish last " , and her plan A was " sub 10 : 00 " . A 9 : 05 time showed that running conservatively for the first ultra was probably a good idea , and that there 's definitely more ability there than she gave herself credit for . Much like the route itself , there were no outstanding high or low points to my race . I had expected to hit the wall , struggle to carry on , battle with my usually temperamental digestion , feel elated when I finished , etc . etc . The reality was that everything just kind of ticked along . The weather was moderate . The marshals , supporters , and passers - by were all very friendly . As the race went on , I felt mostly in control ( as much as one ever is ) , never particularly strong , nor overly weak . I got tired , cranky , cheery , chatty , and quiet , much as I do over the course of any full day . Overall , it was just a normal , nice day out on some scenic trails among like - minded runners , with the added bonus of great support - what better way to spend a Saturday ? When we signed up for the Nairn Half Marathon , the goal was to have a bash at setting some fast times after a Summer of focus on speed rather than just endurance . I looked high and low for a flattish half in August or early September , and found one just a short drive from Nic 's sister and her family - the bonus of a family get - together made the race too good to pass up . Of course , it 's a 10 - 12 hour drive to get there , so a little planning was needed to make sure we arrived in condition to run ! Luckily , Nic 's folks live about 2 / 3 the way there , so we got to stop off and enjoy even more family time on both the out and back , as well as breaking up the drive . The Nairn Half has the unique ( to my knowledge , anyway ) feature of being part of the local Highland Games . So , unlike many local races , the spectators at the finish actually outnumber the runners by quite a large margin . It also means that there 's plenty going on when you finish , so the post - race is quite enjoyable . We arrived around 11am to register and avoid getting stuck in traffic heading for the Games , and took in as much of the grass track and arena as we could . Nic particularly enjoyed hearing the sound of a lone piper playing a short distance from the park as we wandered along the seaside paths . You can take the lassie out of Scotland . . . With around 30 minutes to go , we started our gentle warm - up , as usual checking out the 1st and last mile of the course , loosening limbs , etc . The clouds that had threatened to keep things cool for this afternoon race began to blow past , leaving us in no doubt that the weather would be abnormally warm for a visit to the northern beaches ! The clouds start to drift off as we get into our warm - up . At the start , the local runners were looking up , worried that the foreign yellow disc might stay put throughout the race . I had already added five seconds per mile to both of our planned first half splits , to allow for the added warmth in this cold and dreary Summer , so was confident that we would survive without too much damage from the sun . Nic 's sister had kindly leant us some sunscreen , since it 's not normally in our Scottish travel kit . It was a good thing , too , since our shoulders hadn 't spent much time in the open lately . At 12 : 30 , I found myself in the second row , waiting for the fast runners to come and line up in front of me . Only a few did , because everyone wanted the inside line for the initial lap of the track . When the gun ( and it was actually a starter 's pistol ! ) fired and the short stretch of jostling was finished , I found myself in around 6th place on the inside of the track . By the time we left the track , I was in the more sensible and lucky 13th position , keeping a close eye on my watch to make sure I wan 't going dangerously quickly . Within a quarter mile , nearly 20 runners passed me as I maintained my pace . I was confident some would come back eventually , based on previous years ' results . This year 's field was nearly twice the normal size , so I was curious to find out how many would come back if I finished in my goal time of sub - 1 : 30 . The first two miles of the course are fairly innocuous . The goal was to keep in the region of 6 : 50 before hitting the little hill in the 3rd mile . By the end of the 2nd mile , the field in front of me was at its largest , and the combination of the warm day and early enthusiasm was already starting to take its toll . When the hill approached , the first few runners came back quite quickly . I kept a beady eye on the watch to make sure I wasn 't riding the " thrill of the hunt " to blow my own race as I steadily worked my way back towards the top 20 . At the first water stop , I encountered my first " grab - and - stop " of the day . What is it that causes otherwise sensible people to grab the first available cup of water and suddenly break into a walk , making it impossible for the next runner to access either the way forward or the next cup of water ? I 'd like to say I pushed the offending runner into a ditch rather than simply running through him and spilling his water , but he apologized and I carried to get my own drink and douse without losing too much pace . From the " top " of the hill to the half way mark is a very gentle slope , or " false flat " , which means that every now and then , you can look down the road and wonder why it feels a bit harder than it should to maintain pace . As I approached the 5 mile marker , I encountered my first " walker " - he was definitely suffering from the searing sunshine and lack of a breeze . I noted a windmill turning well in the distance and immediately realized that the lack of air movement was essentially a tail - wind - a bit of a worry on what is basically an out - and - back course . At the next water stop , I tried to let the runner in front and the 1st volunteer know I was aiming for the 2nd volunteer 's water . Too late , the runner stopped right in front of me and the volunteer kindly tried to hand me water as I was passing through . I got an extra douse , apologized my way to the 2nd volunteer , grabbed some more water for a sip and shower and again continued on my way . At around 6 . 5 miles , a kind man had placed a sprinkler over the road to help cool us off - a welcome burst of cool since my vest had dried quickly after the water stop . Then , we turned into the wind and I stopped feeling hot . At first , the breeze was refreshing - it was only just starting to really get up . This section of the course was broadly down hill , with occasional short tree - lined stretches to offer a bit of shade . I had expected a reasonable amount of wind , but it was becoming quite an obstacle . I managed to maintain my pace through to 9 miles with an effort , losing a second here and there and finding it more difficult to recover the time . The 10th and 11th miles had some small hills , but nothing particularly taxing . Unfortunately , they also had some significant sections into the stiff headwind , and I dropped 50 seconds as I struggled against it . With the final push to the line , I got back onto pace with a good downhill and some changes of direction , but the damage was done . Sub - 1 : 30 would take a superhuman effort , and even getting a PB was at risk . I needed to leave everything on the road to have any chance of a good result , and pushed as hard as I could . The race finishes with a lap of the grass track , surrounded by cheering spectators , but I honestly couldn 't hear anything . I focused on following the yellow line and the runner a few seconds ahead and speeding up for all I was worth . In the end , I was about 200 yards too slow , finishing in 1 : 30 : 38 - 55 seconds faster than my previous best set in March . Nic suffered even more in the wind , having turned into it after it had already stopped just being a breeze . She still took a minute off her previous best , and is looking forward to a slightly more favourable day to pick up a couple more minutes . The day had been scheduled for some fast times , but the conditions were not the best on the day . We found out later that the wind had even been strong enough to cause problems at the beer tent at the Games - a temporary tragedy that was dealt with by removing the tent and running the bar under the blazing sun . We enjoyed a different recovery from the usual ( the beer tent was being dismantled as we finished ) , sitting with Nic 's sister and our nieces enjoying the track races , Highland dancing , tug - o ' - war , caber tossing , and marching pipe bands . I think we both suffered a little sunburn and no little windburn , but it was an amazing way to wind down from a hard race . I guess next year we 'll just have to train a little harder ! Running is addictive . It gets under our skin . Muscles , tendons , nerves all suffer when we run . On the best days , running transforms us . On the worst days , it is our final action . Every day in between is a day when we are running , could be running , should be running , dream about running , or prepare to run again . Many runners struggle to find time for running , and yet the time is somehow found . Many runners struggle to keep running from taking over their lives , and kid themselves that they have succeeded . This Spring , I finally stopped kidding myself . Running has taken over my life . This Spring , Cotswold Running stopped just being the name of a blog , it became a dream . In June , Cotswold Running became a company . In July , we opened entries into our first races , the Broadway Tower Marathon and Half Marathon . On August 1st , Cotswold Running became my full - time occupation . The part of my day that used to be dedicated to the automotive industry is dedicated to putting together the races that I 've dreamt of running - races ranging from 10 kilometres to 100 + miles on trails and hills that always call out to me , " Come run here , you 'll leave with a grin ! " . Success is measured not just in the number of runners at the starting line , but the smiles at the finish , the number of runners coming back for more , the number of towns , villages , and landowners welcoming us back to share their landscape for a few hours . Running is addictive . It 's gotten under my skin . Let the adventure begin ! Every year I look forward to the EVRC 's local invitational fell race , the Bredon Bash . We start in picturesque Elmley Castle , run up to the top of Bredon Hill to the tower , and then come back down . It 's around 5 . 8 miles and on a sunny day can include some stunning views . Alternatively , the mist can drop in and you can hardly see your hand in front of your face . This year 's edition , as with much of the past few weeks , was conducted under heavy cloud , steady rain , and a strong wind - horrible for the volunteers , but perfect for a fell race ! With the abysmal weather and entries only taken on the day , it wasn 't much of a surprise that only 49 hardy ( foolish ? ) souls from area clubs and villages entered . Having enjoyed a stellar year so far , my main goal was to take some time off of my time from 2011 . The ankle deep water and mud in places would make that a bit more challenging , but the descent is usually more forgiving when the going is soft to swampy , so I just made sure my shoes were well secured and headed out at the front of the " chasing pack " . Once we had left the road and made our way through a field of tall wet grass ( thank goodness for triple - knots ! ) , the slippery ascent began . I 've run this route in most weather , but haven 't seen the mud so deep for a couple of years . Those in road shoes would have to pick their way gently to the top . Those with more aggressive outsoles could run , although it was best to avoid the narrow " path " that had become more of a quagmire . There are a couple of sections on the hill that I normally have to walk due to burning calves , but these were fewer and shorter than I 'd previously managed . I hit the top of the hill in 11th place , but with plenty to do to make sure I got my new course - best time . The run along the top of the hill is gently undulating , and normally not too soft underfoot . This day was no different . The mud wasn 't overly deep . It was , however , frequently covered by several inches of water . I usually try to avoid stepping into something whose depth I can 't identify , but knowing the track helped me to go through many pools without too much worry , and I never had to worry about hot feet ! I reached the turnaround point still in 11th place ( caught one , lost one ) and gutted it out back to the top of the descent . By now , visibility was incredibly poor as we ran in the low cloud . However , with the wet path , I could hear the splashing runner behind me getting closer . I hit the muddy descent at full speed , hoping to lose my pursuer as I ducked under branches and high - stepped through tree roots . I don 't like getting passed on descents , especially ones that I know well enough to race through even in these conditions . But , with half of the hill left ahead , I was chasing . Together , my erstwhile shadow ( if only there 'd been a light source ! ) and I chased down my clubmate Mark ( he 's generally quite a lot faster than me , but his shoes weren 't cooperating with the terrain ) . At the bottom of the hill , I checked back to find another runner closing fast . When we broke free of the mud and back into the grassy field , I opened my stride to put as much space behind me as I could . I 'd managed to keep that 11th place for most of the race , and was far more interested in 10th than I was in 12th ! By the time I hit the final road section , I had closed back in on the runner ahead , and could see that he had left most of his energy on the hill . With just under half a mile to go , I went for broke and put in an effort designed to overtake and also ensure I stayed ahead . The speed sessions over the past few months have been paying off , because I still felt OK , even though it turns out I was running at my 5K pace ( it 's a bit downhill ) . Once again , we made our way on Wednesday evening to Cleeve Common for the hilly " sprint " that is the Cleeve Cloud Cuckoo 5 . 5 . Given the near constant rain over the past week , the clouds kindly broke up and headed north to give us a pleasantly sunny window in which to run . The race makes a figure of eight around the top of Cleeve Hill , near Cheltenham , taking in a few short hills and a couple of longer ones along the way . With a gentle uphill first quarter to sap the legs a bit , it gives a reminder that it always pays to be fully warmed up before the start . None of the hills in the early section is particularly special , but if the lungs and calves aren 't quite ready , you 'll hear all about it . Following the gentle loosener comes a delightful 950ft descent that is shallow enough to take at speed and steep enough to challenge one 's ability to stay upright . The payback is a climb out of the quarry bottom back onto the hill over the space of a mile and a bit . The first half mile of the climb is quite steep , with a gentler finish to the high point of the race . From here , we get a mile steady descent to recover on before a short , steep scramble before the wonderful 3 / 4mi downhill finish . This year 's event was well attended , with over 120 competitors . The course was a little different to last year with an extra quarter mile in the post - quarry part of the " eight " . Nic joined in , racing this year rather than simply sightseeing , and taking more than a minute per mile off compared to 2011 . I knocked 14 seconds off on average , to finish considerably further up the field ( close enough to see the 1st lady finish , which is usually a good target for me ) . All - in - all , a great way to spend a Summer 's evening . Yesterday , I set out for a nice , easy 20 mile run . I 'd selected my route from the list of go - to routes ( i . e . no map reading , close by , minimal planning required ) and gone for a fairly flat affair . With only 2 - 3 big hills , and lots of rolling stuff , I was looking forward to a nice , steady pace for 3 - 4 hours . The fact that the weather was filthy only added to the fun - a little soft mud underfoot is always nice . Some days , however , a nice route doesn 't necessarily make for a nice run . As I ran through Snowshill , one of the most beautiful villages around , it was sad to see people setting up tables and flags for the afternoon 's Jubilee street party . Rainwater was streaming off the tables like they were forming some kind of water slide . Then , as I got to the top of my first hill , I found out just how much of an impact last week 's sunshine had made . The grass was knee - to - thigh high along the path , and very wet indeed . I was taking in so much water every time I lifted a foot that my shoes began a lovely squelchy tune . For about a mile , I was shipping more water than I could squeeze out with each step - lovely . Once I was back out of the long grass , I began to wonder if I was losing my mind - I kept hearing voices from the trees . Nothing clear , just the occasional human voice , with no other sign of life . It was windy , and the sheep were making a racket , but I was pretty sure that my brain wasn 't creating a voice from these ambient noises . Eventually , I ran along a ridge with a clear view to the other side of a valley to see some sort of large event going on - obviously something with a PA system . It was hard to see what was going on , because they were as shrouded in the low cloud as I was . So , no evidence there that I 'm losing the plot ! I happily carried on in the knowledge that I 'm not losing my marbles into a field of bullocks . Those who know me will be aware that I 'm not that keen on cattle . They 're large , a little too curious , and somewhat unpredictable . So , with reassuring words to the youngsters that I was only passing through , I carefully walked through their pasture . Normally , I get a few stares and am left alone . The boys were a bit bored , I guess , and decided to gather round . It was a little disconcerting at first , as they formed a semi - circle and closed in to within a few feet . I stopped and stood completely still , in the hopes that they would lose interest and wander off . But , no , they decided to come a bit closer - not the response I was after ! With a little gentle hand waving , they backed away enough for me to try the slow walk again . A couple kept very close quarters , but eventually they let me go . Given the potential for young males of any species to be curious , energetic , and a bit thick in the head , I wasn 't sure where the situation would go . Any tips on how best to keep bullocks at a distance are most welcome . Luckily , the next herd a few miles later was more interested in eating than they were in me . I think I 'll give that route a miss for a few weeks ! By the time I was done with the low - speed cattle driving , I was starting to get cold ( yes , in June ) . From there , the rest of the run was about keeping warm ( hat , gloves , etc . ) and keeping going . Village after village had soggy street party decorations that looked a bit like I was beginning to feel - worse for wear . After 15 miles , I decided to call it a day and give in to the dreary weather . So , I cut a couple of miles off and headed back to Snowshill by road . On the up side , my new route took me through the lavender farm . The smell of the new buds in the rain lifted my mood and I jogged happily back to the car . Funny how the vagaries of the route can so easily alter the state of a tired and unfocussed mind ! The day , once again , started oh - so - very - early . After 2011 's fun , we decided that the race is easiest to manage if someone is following the baton , with a small band of dedicated family members and club runners acting as transport for the runners . As a result , we needed to be at the start before 5 : 00 . Having made my final substitution of an injured runner the day before , I was a little twitchy when the alarm went off at 3 : 50 . By 4 : 30 , I 'd confirmed that the first 2 runners were in position and headed to the start line with super - crew - chief Nic relieved that I wouldn 't have to stand in for the first leg . My leg wasn 't until the afternoon , to give me time to re - jig runners if needed , but I was happy to avoid the need for any last - minute shuffling . When I sent in the entry form , I still didn 't have a clear picture of the team . April is marathon season , and people have a tendency to drop out with injuries and insufficient recovery . With the list of ~ 15 runners , I knew at least a few wouldn 't make it to the start - but I didn 't know which ones . Therefore , I entered the team in the earliest start time to make sure we finished well in advance of the 18 : 00 target deadline . By the time the participant list had nearly solidified ( 3 days before the race ) , it was clear that we had a chance of a podium finish . Any event that lasts for 13 hours will have its little incidents . This year 's Hilly was no different . My leg 3 runner nearly missed the baton change by parking up about half a mile down the wrong road - we recovered her just in time . The leg 4 - 5 transition point was perfectly placed to attract the attention ( and wrath ) of a local farmer who really didn 't appreciate a load of runners parking in the drive to his farm . A change in transition points confused the team captain ( me ) and resulted in a poor estimation , which had the leg 6 runner handing over to said team captain a bit behind schedule . Add to that a great run by the leg 6 runner from Kenilworth , and I had my first 1 - on - 1 race in quite a long time ( honours even - after a big effort to close the gap , he struggled to hold on in the final 5km and I regained our buffer ) . Finally , 13 hours after the start , we confirmed that EVRC had successfully defended our 2011 B - race 3rd place ( as well as defending our title as 1st mixed team ) . Amazingly , we had knocked 39 minutes off last year 's time . I think we might just start at 6am next year - I look forward to the extra sleep ! This weekend is a three - day one , due to the national holiday celebrating the first floods of the year ( or possibly May Day , if you don 't live near a river ) . To celebrate the extra recovery time available , it is customary to put on stupidly difficult races . In 2010 , I ran my first trail marathon ( Three Forts Challenge ) . In 2011 , I completed my final Endurancelife Coastal Trail Series marathon of the year at the inaugural Endurancelife Festival . I can confidently say that the latter was the more difficult course . I had planned to head back to Sussex to have another go at the Three Forts , but then I saw some of the other races available on the weekend . Plan A was Malvern Ultra due to the lack of travel required . However , once Nic was successfully putting away the training miles , we changed plans and set our sights on the Welsh Hills . For this change of plans , I blame my good friend Roy . Roy and I have been training together for a few years now . If ever I want to find a new route , I ask Roy along . We 're a similar pace , like similar trails , and are equally good at finding " scenic " options to the path we 're meant to be following . He has been singing the praises of the Red Kite & Ras y Diafol ( Devil 's Race ) for a year or two , and when Nic suggested that she get to choose a race for once , we decided to give it a shot . On paper , the weekend shouldn 't be too hard : 11 miles on Saturday , 17 miles on Sunday , ~ 5000ft of ascent combined . It should be no more difficult than this year 's CTS courses , so why not have a nice weekend running in the hills ? Day one takes place from the Red Kite visitor centre ( great viewing of these amazing birds ) , and day two is just a few miles away . Add to the fun that friends Roy , Chris , Ned , and Sheila were all running both days , and what could be more relaxing ? And then , of course , one pins on the race number and all thoughts of a relaxed and scenic run go out the window . They are replaced by thoughts like " It 's only 11 miles " and " race today and then worry about tomorrow when it comes " . Having tried to race last month 's Exmoor ultra and come slightly unstuck , I decided to listen to the speed demon on my shoulder rather than the armchair angel . Nic 's picture from the Red Kite Challenge . The Red Kite Challenge also happens to be the Welsh trail running championships , so the field is pretty handy . A couple of local international - class runners turn up to have a wee sprint while the rest of us grind it out in their wake . The race starts with a gentle run around the lake and then throws in a few modest climbs of between 100ft and 400ft , before giving us an amazing two - mile , 900ft descent . I 'm pretty sure this was the first time I had ever put two sub - 6 miles into a race ( I haven 't even done that in a 5K ! ) , and that was taking the hill with a fair amount of control to save something for the inevitable uphill . It was an amazing feeling to be moving that quickly for an extended period . Eventually , the down ended and we went straight back up out of the valley - another 800ft in a little under two miles of fast hiking with occasional runnable bits . Upon reaching the top , my climbing muscles were in rebellion , but the race was over half - way finished . The final five miles were gently undulating ( little rolling 100 - 200ft ups and downs ) , which certainly kept the heart rate high as I tried to keep from losing too many places to the more practised fell runners . A final sprint got me to the line in a reasonable time , but with not much energy left . I was even too tired to eat any of the delicious - looking fruitcake on offer at the finish . Once everyone had finished , we made for the tea shop and I joined the queue . They must have run out of tea , because eventually we gave up on the lack of progress and headed back out onto the balcony to watch the kites and wait for the award ceremony . Chris and Roy showed their experience by bringing a huge Thermos of hot water and sharing out some very warming coffee - saviours ! With prizes for the open race , Welsh race , and age groups , the prize - giving lasted for quite some time . But , I 'm glad we stayed because Nic picked up an age - group silver medal for her sterling effort ! Ned , Sheila , and Chris picked up age - group bronzes , and Roy and I won the opportunity to buy drinks in the pub later in the evening . Day two was a bit more of a relaxed affair . Only a fraction of the field come out to do the combined event , and a few people turn out just to do the longer run . The plan on Saturday morning was to just take this as a recovery run , but once again the number got pinned to the chest and sense got left in the kit bag . However , I had a pack on this time , so at least had the chance to take a few pictures on the run . The course starts fairly gently , with a short downhill and a steady uphill . We were joined by some enthusiastic horses for a short time ( somewhere just out of the picture ) . Just before mile three , we began what seemed like a fairly innocuous climb and then turned into mountain - goat territory . At this point , I started a game of hill leapfrog with Sheila that lasted nearly nine miles . She would leave me for dust on the ups and I would catch her and try to gain some margin on the downs . The challenge of the day was the two - mile , 1000ft climb up to nearly half - way . As I dragged myself up the switchbacks , Roy caught up for a brief chat and Sheila pulled well clear . I managed not to lose too many places with my relatively slow pace , but it was a huge effort to keep any pace at all . At last , the long uphill was finished . The hill finally ended with a short section through a wind farm . It was amazing to pass so close to the majestic , near - silent drone of the blades as they slowly rotated . From there , we had nearly three miles of descent broken by the occasional sharp hill during which to " recover " . I eventually caught up to Sheila again , just in time to ruin it all with yet another uphill section . From 12 . 5 miles , it 's essentially down hill to the finish . Unfortunately , I slightly missed a step and jarred my right leg on some stairs . By the time I reached 14 miles and the end of a long steep road , my right calf was objecting to the point of full cramp . I 'd been taking salt tablets to avoid cramp since I was dripping with sweat for much of the race , but obviously the calf didn 't enjoy having to take up the slack for the muscles that suffered from the earlier misstep . So , with a few stops to massage and stretch , I started to lose time properly . The silly leg did ease up enough to get back up to a reasonable jog , but not before Roy caught me . I could see the joy on his face from catching me at last , and wished him well ( something encouraging like " carry on , because I 'm going to try to catch you ! " ) . It was the kick up the backside I needed to get back into a proper run . It didn 't feel great , but it also didn 't feel like getting worse . Although I struggled any time the ground was particularly rough , I could focus on chasing Roy . I started to see more runners that I 'd long - since passed lining up in the distance behind me , and that gave me even more encouragement to " man - up " and move faster . That , for me , is one of the key differences between racing a run and just running it for the experience . When I 'm racing , finishing position matters . When I 'm running just against myself and the course , then the watch and the view are the arbiters of success . I knew as we came into the last mile that I couldn 't catch Roy ( I 'm sure he 'd have died before letting go of the few hundred metres margin he built up ) . But I also knew that I could keep the line of runners where they were - behind me . As the line approached , I was 2nd in a loose group of three . The runner behind me sprinted for the line with an energy that I certainly did not possess . When the man in front didn 't respond to his charge , I decided to give it a go and slowly ramped up into an ugly sprint . This time , he responded - obviously he saw the state of me and decided he just couldn 't lose to such a wreck . We shouted each other to the finish in an epic battle against our rebellious legs . It 's all fun and games at the end of a great run . ( courtesy of Alastair Tye ) The double - race weekend was tough , but was also a lot of fun . It 's great to share the race experience with friends , and two - day events double the pleasure . Chris and Sheila picked up awards for the Ras y Diafol , and all three ladies won their age categories for the combined events . I won a very fine bar of chocolate for completing both events , which was rather welcome on Monday afternoon when the munchies hit . There are , as I said , a lot of great events on the May Day holiday weekend . I think the others may take a back seat for a few years , because I have already pencilled a return to Wales for next year ! I 've been running on and off since my first 1 mile fun - " run " in 1976 - I was 3 at the time . Now , I spend as much time enjoying the trails as much as I do running on the road . I organize trail races in the UK and coach at my local running club and online . I enjoy running in the mud . Frequently , I even enjoy running through standing water - especially if my feet are a bit tired or sore . As a . . .

I enjoy running in the mud . Frequently , I even enjoy running through standing water - especially if my feet are a bit tired or sore . As a result , I have days where I end a run with almost as much muck in my shoes as on them . I started wearing gaiters a few years ago , with Inov - 8 's DebriSoc - a sock with built - in gaiter . When the sock part finally met its holey demise , I cut off the sock and kept using the gaiter . Last year , before the River Ayr Way Challenge , I finally replaced the decrepit old things with a new pair of Inov - 8 Debris Gaiter ( tm ) 32 . They were partially successful , but they are dreadfully dull to look at , and , ever the magpie , I have been eyeing up the wantonly excessive decoration of the Dirty Girl gaiters that are now easily available in the UK via The ULTRAmarathon Running Store . Thanks to my fabulous parents - in - law , on Boxing Day I had the chance to test out the Dirty Girls , so here 's my view of how Inov - 8 and Dirty Girl stack up on a wet and filthy trail run . The Inov - 8 Debris Gaiter is pretty simple : put on gaiter , put on shoe , slide elastic bands under the shoe and hook the tab onto your laces - what could be easier ? They cover the lace knots nicely on most shoes , which is helpful in mud as well as long wet grass . They 're also fairly absorbant , which can be a hassle if there 's a lot of water as well as grit on the route . The ankle cuff is a bit bulky , which can result in quite warm ankles if you 're out on a summer run . With a price ranging from £ 11 to £ 15 , and coming in any colour you like , so long as it 's black , these gaiters keep the mud out at a good price . The Dirty Girl Gaiters stand out visually , with over 20 patterns from which to choose . The attachment to the shoe is very straight - forward . There 's a one - time ( or now - and - then ) process requiring you to stick a bit of self - adhesive velcro onto the back of your shoeand then wait a day . To wear , put on the gaiter , put on the shoe , then velcro the back of the gaiter to the shoe and hook the front to the bottom shoelace . They are made from a basic polyester / lycra blend , so are a little stretchy but not too clingy . The gaiter is also very light , even on a very wet day . They don 't absorb much water , and are reasonably cool . I comfortably wore mine ( without trail shoes ) around the house for an afternoon to check the fit while I waited for the velcro to set on my shoes , and hardly noticed them . On the down side , the cost of all the pretty colours is an extra few £ on the pricetag . Things to be aware of about both brands : if you wear shoes without laces ( e . g . most Five - Fingers ) , you are going to have to find something to hook the gaiters to at the front . An elastic band around a toe or two will do in a pinch . If you wear La Sportiva shoes , you will also struggle to find a lace to hook onto . I successfully used the elastic band from my old DebriSoc around the forefoot . Nic made a fixing point by running a safety pin along the top of her lace - gaiter with good effect . With a bit of time and fishing line , I expect the best method will be to stitch in a loop at the bottom of the lace gaiter . If you are more concerned about grass , pebbles , and dry debris than mud and wet grit , then the Inov - 8 gaiter is certainly sufficient for your needs and gives good value . For all - round use , the Dirty Girl wins hands down on ability to withstand a wet run without adding to the weight on your feet . They have a tighter weave , so also kept out more fine grit than the Inov - 8 gaiters . If you 're going to be spending any length of time in the wet , and the current weather pattern suggests we all will be , then I would suggest spending the extra on the Dirty Girl . And if you don 't fancy colourful feet , you can always go for the olive green or nearly black options . Ah , December ! That time of year when we look back and pretend that the previous 12 months formed some kind of continuous experience that will magically end , be packaged up , and replaced by another year - long block . Life , if we 're lucky , lasts quite a long time , so like any good long run , we break it into manageable pieces , taking and planning one step at a time . Every now and then , when things are going well , it 's possible to take a step outside of this artificial time line and see that everything is connected , all our future somehow dependent on the miles that have come before . We transcend the map , the GPS , and the strange taste caused by too many gels , and everything somehow fits into the great vision . That 's usually about the time I trip over a tree root . How did 2012 fit into the progression that is my grand plan of life and running ? Let 's put on the hindsight goggles and have a look . I ended 2011 with two predictions for 2012 . Prediction 1 : the dry weather we 'd been enjoying could not possibly continue - rather unfortunately , I was right , and am now musing about downsizing to a houseboat before the house becomes a boat . Prediction 2 : a good early season could lead to a tilt at running the whole Cotswold Way during the summer - this never really made it onto the priority list . 2012 started as a busy racing year . The first half of the year included 15 races of distances ranging from 1 to 34 miles . I ran 100 race miles fewer than in 2011 , due to the reduction in the number of marathons . I also raced at a minute and a half per mile faster , again due in part to fewer marathons . By adding ultras to the calendar , I had an incentive to boost my training miles , logging 50 % more in 2012 ( ~ 1800 for the year ) . Somehow , the second half of the year seemed to include all of the " A " races for 2012 . That hadn 't been the plan , it 's just how the desire , energy , and ambition played out . By mid - July , every race that had a comparator was a " best " of some kind . For standard distance races , I had picked up a new PB at 1mi , 5km , and half marathon . For races I had done before , I picked up course bests , including the two ultras where I beat my equivalent 2011 marathon times as part of the ultras . 2012 was shaping up rather nicely . I was successfully building on 2011 , which had indeed been a " breakthrough " year . Looking forward to the first " A " race , at Nairn , I started to get a little ambitious and before I knew it , I was targeting a sub 1 : 30 half ( nearly made it ! ) , my first 40 + mi race , and a new marathon PB on one of the toughest road courses in the country ( it 's not actually that bad - just one tough hill towards the end ) . All through the fun of racing , there was an undercurrent of trying to figure out how to make running more than just a hobby . During the summer , we launched Cotswold Running as a venture to organise races and eventually other running - related experiences . The enterprise started well , with an enjoyable event at Broadway Tower ( according to those who slogged through the mud ) , and will continue into 2013 with other fun challenges on the cards . Having stared back with the hindsight goggles on , 2012 looks like a year full of enormous change . I was happily racing faster at all distances and running further than ever before . Working life headed in a completely different direction . What was going on ? But , if we ignore the artificial barrier that is January 1st , the year is simply a bridge from what came before to what lies ahead . The running achievements flowed nicely as a result of the base laid in 2011 , and have set me up for a potentially exciting 2013 . April 's Highland Fling is inked in as the spring " A " race , and a few other interesting races are finding their way onto the plan . Career - wise , what appears from the outside to be a complete divergence from the past is really just another stepping stone along the way , building on years of varied experiences and leading to - well , we 'll just have to see where it leads . As the upper in my previous right trail shoe decreased its attachment to the lower portion of the shoe , I started to look out for a new model and brand . Nic has been quite happy in her choice of La Sportiva Crosslites for several hundred miles , but when I tried a pair , the fit wasn 't really what I was looking for . I 've been wearing Inov - 8s since 2008 , which makes it tough for anything new to get past the " first impression " test . I liked the upper and the rock plate , but something wasn 't quite " right " . So , when I had the opportunity to try on a pair of Crosslite XC at the Snowdonia Marathon mini - expo , I took the chance and was pleasantly surprised . The next thing I knew , I had a pair of shoes tucked under the wardrobe waiting for the untimely demise of my Roclites . After my trip to the Wrekin last month , the time had finally come to try something new . Carrying my new shoes in my backpack , I ran for my favourite proving ground - Bredon Hill . My preferred approach up the hill begins with a steady track around a ploughed field , carries on through a firm pasture , slogs through a load of boggy muck , up a wetland that was like a shallow stream after all the rain , up a limestone track , and along a path that alternates between grass , slippery roots , mud , and rock . Then it 's a nice circuit of the hill and back down . In a little over 7 miles , this route offers a fantastic mix of terrains and textures to test out a new pair of shoes . The first thing you notice when you put on the Crosslite XC is that you can 't get to the bottom of your laces . Adjusting the tension requires an old - fashioned tug on the ends and some hope that you 'll get it right . It took a few tries , especially with cold fingers ( I 'd had a nice , if very cold , road run to reach my testing ground ) . After a couple of stops , I got the laces right and was able to tuck them into the gaiter . The gaiter comes up high enough to provide a good anti - muck layer above the most vulnerable grit access point , but not quite far enough to allow you to completely hide the knots . Being able to tuck away the loops in the laces should help to keep the shoes from being untied by running through long grass , but the knots still get caked with mud as you find with any other shoe that needs to be tied . The rubberized toe box and reinforced upper proved suitably robust against the various rocks , sticks , and roots I encountered on my way . My feet kept reasonably dry when running through small amounts of mud , and the shoes seemed to drain quickly when I went through anything particularly deep . I never felt like the shoe was holding an unnecessary amount of the water I was running through . The Crosslite XC is billed as an aggressive fell and trail shoe , designed for wet and slippery conditions . The outsole bears out the description . The lugs are angled in all directions to support forward motion - the outer lugs on the forefoot are angled to resist sliding away from the centre line , the main forefoot lugs are angled to grip and pull through as you go up hill and to push mud away as you go down hill , and at the back you can see the lugs turned around , so they offer extra grip as your heel digs into the shifting earth / scree on a messy descent . The " FriXion " rubber compound is a soft rubber , ideal for wet rock . The grip on wet limestone descents was unexpectedly good , comparing quite favourably to the popular Inov - 8 Mudclaw . The harder sole on the standard Crosslite is not quite as sticky across wet rock , but wears well on the road sections of a route - I 'm not sure how long the XC will cope with the inevitable road running between trails , but the extra stability on wet limestone is worth it on my local trails . I felt incredibly well connected to the ground on my descent through wet leaves , rock , roots , and grass , with good grip throughout . Towards the end of my run , I tested the built - in gaiters with a knee - deep mis - step . Very little filth got into the shoe , which made a nice change from my previous pair . I did manage to sweep some grit into the shoes as I washed off the mud in a stream , but nothing more than could be expected with the vigour of my swishing about . Happily , the shoes also released the water as I ran , so there was no squelching after just a field or two . As I sat to change back into road shoes for the 10K run home from the test , I encountered an unexpected bonus . Although I hadn 't really noticed the fit once I got the lace tension right , the Crosslite XC heel box fits me perfectly , with no slipping . My feet typically tear out the heel box cushioning in all of my shoes , but these gripped in just the right places - to the extent that I struggled to get the slimy things off my very wet feet ! In summary , the Crosslite XC is an excellent fell shoe , great for wet and slippery conditions , with a great fit . It handles rough terrain as well as its better - known rivals , and feels like it will last a bit longer . It seems like La Sportiva are phasing it out ( I can 't find it on their website any more ) , so it 's worth stocking up before they disappear entirely . That said , based on my experience so far , I 'd happily consider any new light - weight replacement the manufacturers come out with . Mid - life update : It 's nearing the end of February , and I 've put nearly 200 miles on these shoes , so I thought it useful to update the review . Mostly , I have been running in mud - up muddy hills , down muddy hills , through wet and muddy fields . The longest I 've spent in the shoes is around 6 . 5 hours . They really do drain well . I 've managed 1 dry run in that time , and the shoes held up well . My feet didn 't get too hot , but I must say that after 20 miles , I was feeling a bit battered by the combination of already - tired feet , minimal cushioning and the fairly rigid sole . I 'm quite happy to run on a minimally cushioned shoe , but I would have liked a bit more freedom for my feet for a run of that distance given the amazing lack of soft ground on that day . As with nearly every shoe I 've worn this winter , I am seeing some heavy wear around the toe box . But , unlike my Inov - 8s , I haven 't had any holes developing in the Crosslite XC . The fabric is pretty robust . The test will be whether it separates from the sole after another hundred miles . So far , the signs are that the shoe will last well . This week , I 've mostly not felt like running . It doesn 't happen often , but when it does , I listen to my body and get in a bit of extra rest . The benefit of occasionally taking a break is having the energy to get out and throw in an extra race as a reward ! So , with friends Mitch , Roy , and Chris , I headed out to run all ' round The Wrekin . I had missed out on the race last year , due to injury at Abingdon , so was happy to have a chance to try it out this year . This race is a category A fell race , which means it 's steep ( average 50m / km of climb ) . It also means there will be plenty of top class competitors there to make sure I don 't get lost as I follow their footprints . The route was very well marked , well marshalled , but could have done with a few more slow runners to pad my ego when I look at the results . We started in the middle of a wood with temperatures hovering around 4C and quickly headed along a narrow , undulating track before the first ascent of The Wrekin . It wasn 't particularly difficult , just a case of getting up by alternating between a run and a fastish hike . By the time I hit the top , I was warm , but wasn 't about to take off my gloves or headwear - I wanted a little extra protection in case I took a tumble on the rather steep scree slope that was just around the corner . On top of the hill , the sun was shining bright and I briefly considered the decision to keep my shades on my head to have been correct . Then , we were back into the woods and they started to bounce along as the route headed down the hill . It 's been a few months since I 've raced hard in the hills , and it showed . My feet weren 't moving as quickly as I would have liked when I got to the scree slope , but I managed the first half quite happily . The sliding , jumping over roots , and general high - concentration , high - turnover descent was a lot of fun . I did cop out at about half way and steady myself against a tree , trying to clear my eyes that were watering from a mixture of cold air and adrenaline . Unfortunately , shortly after I resumed my run / shuffle / ski / jump down the hill , I found myself facing up the hill , sliding feet - first towards the bottom , somehow having pitched forward , landed on my side , rolled onto my back , and then onto my front as I tried to stop the slide and get back to my feet . I expect it looked spectacular , but it also left my shades a few yards up the hill and I had to trudge back up to get them . Mitch looked up when he got to the bottom in time to see me stand up , arms aloft , as though I had just completed a fantastic dismount from the pommel horse . It wasn 't the most serious fall , but apparently it had style ! The next couple of miles , gently climbing , were pretty unpleasant . I 'd winded myself a bit in the fall , and found it a struggle to run much faster than a gentle jog . When we reached the 1 : 3 clamber back up the hill , I was feeling pretty beaten up by the course . Still , by 4 . 5 miles , we had 2 of the 3 ascents complete and it was due to be plain sailing , surely . Once again , we headed down the hill and into the woods . The track was a little less steep than the previous ascent , but full of roots , rocks , leaves , and other obstacles to keep the mind sharp . The final climb was steep and steady , but by then I was starting to feel OK again and just worked along with the group of runners that had been catching me since my fall . The final descent was incredibly challenging and full of trip hazards , and I would have loved to watch some of the more experienced fell runners as they passed me . I caught glimpses of very fast - moving legs , but mostly tried to focus on where my slightly plodding feet were going to land . Finally , with a mile or so to go , we were back onto normal , undulating trail , and I was able to pick up the pace and try to pull a bit of time back and finish 71st , around 1 / 3 down the field . I enjoyed the mini buffet at the end while cleaning my wounds and waiting for the results . All told , a bit of fun , a bit of sun , and a race I may just go back and try to finish without hitting the deck . On January 1st , 2012 , I entered the Snowdonia Marathon . A few weeks later , I bought a pair of Inov - 8 Road - X ( tm ) 233s , with the intention of easing down another 3mm of heel drop in my road shoes . With a spring full of trail racing , the 233s lasted longer than expected , with only around 400 miles on them as summer came to an end . And then I looked at the course and the location again , and realised that I would never be able to blast down a wet , grassy , slippery , rainy trail in a shoe with virtually no traction on wet grass . They would be great for 24 . 5 miles of the race , but the 1 . 5 miles where I intended to recover nearly all of the time I would lose on the final climb , so I needed to be certain of my footing . What to do ? After searching for a low profile shoe with a bit of grip in a brand I could slip straight into , I opted to run my annual road marathon in trail shoes . After all , I 'd run almost all of my long runs during the year in trail shoes , so why not ? That brings me to the F - Lite ( tm ) 230s . The 230s are listed on Inov - 8 's website as a fitness shoe that 's also designed for hard - pack trails and tarmac . Oddly , though , they aren 't listed among the Inov - 8 road shoe range . So , I checked with SouthLakesGuy on Twitter ( he knows a bit about Inov - 8s ) , and he confirmed they are great all - rounders . I only had two concerns before they arrived - the outsole and the upper . The F - Lite sole is incredibly flexible , to the point where it felt like they would bend any direction my foot wanted to go . When I wore them on a 21 mile practice run , it was like going out in my slippers - I could feel every bit of road . To me , that 's a good thing . It has a little bit of tread , in Inov - 8 's sticky rubber compound , but nothing overly agressive . So , the outsole passed the initial test . Recently , the uppers on my Roclite ( tm ) 285 trail shoes have shown a bit of weakness against the strain across the forefoot , tearing away from the toe reinforcement on my right foot . The 230 upper , with a less rigid reinforcement , molds better to my foot and fits much more like the Road - X , so has not had the same problem . My worry that the upper wouldn 't survive the training proved unfounded , thankfully . Update Jan 24 , 2013 : Amazingly , with less than 400mi on the clock , the upper has separated from the lower . It 's so disappointing , because these have been great on the slushy pavements and snow . Yes , they 're getting on a bit , but I 'd rather hoped the upper would last as long as the sole , since I have been almost exclusively on the road with these . This seems to be an undesired and recurring issue . So , the shoes seemed fine and dandy , but how did they do on the day ? First , having very little weight on my feet over the course of 3 . 5 hours was great . The less my legs had to pick up , the better . Relative to the 233s , it 's not much difference , but the alternatives I 'd been looking at were in the region of 30 % heavier , which starts to count after a while . I have tested the 230s on wet grass and mud , and they are more effective than the Road - X , but I wouldn 't advise taking them on a long muddy run , as they really have only as much grip as any standard road shoe would in the conditions . Comfort - wise , I caught a sharp rock at about 5 miles and briefly wished for a shoe with a rock plate as I continued racing down the rocky path . The pain dissipated once the route took us back onto the road , but the rocky track wasn 't very nice . I like to feel the ground when I run , but if you 're going to spend more than a mile or two on rocky trails , I would advise something a bit more rugged . For pure road , the extra little bit of cushion under the balls of the feet you get in the Road - X is a nice change . In terms of fit , of my 3 pairs of Inov - 8s , the F - Lite fits best . There are no pinch points like I experienced with the 285 , and the heel cup fits much better than the 233 . There have been no hotspots or blisters with any of them , so that 's not really an issue . Normally , I only write about my own efforts or occasionally Nicola 's . Last weekend , for the first time in a while , I crossed the fence to the dark , hidden side of running : race directing . The majority of that activity will remain dark and hidden - races are much like sausages : you enjoy them more if you don 't see them being made . But , here are a few reflections on the day . The routes for the Broadway Tower Marathon & Half Marathon have been under design for quite some time . The original route was planned in the spring and in place early in the summer , with the diversion ( the one I designed , not the unplanned ones ) decided a bit more recently . They include some of the most beautiful views the area has to offer , even on a rainy day . On a nice day , the route can be absolutely stunning . Over the past few years , these trails have been fantastic to run on , with occasional slippery bits and plenty of good hard - packed , often rock hard ground . With the ridiculous amount of rain we 've had locally this summer , some of the fields turned to sticky , muddy , horrible mires - especially in the 3rd quarter of the marathon course . Having run nearly all of the route on the Wednesday and Thursday before the race , I am full of admiration for all of the competitors . Conditions underfoot were tough out there on Saturday ( but not a patch on how bad it was amid Sundays downpours ! ) , and if the sun hadn 't come out I dare say we would have had a regular transfer service running from the 20mi check point to the race base . In every event , there are plenty of unexpected surprises on the day , for runners and organisers . I can 't imagine how difficult it would have been for everyone without the telephone safety net . A few people needed some extra directions and reassurance they were on the right route and phoned to check . A few probably should have made calls but didn 't . For anyone planning to run on the trails , whether racing or training , it 's always a good idea to take a phone . A quick text or call to say " I 'm lost , " " I 'm OK , just really slow , " " I 'm really cold and need some help " can be the difference between a good day and a disastrous one . Personally , I 've used my phone for all of the above . It 's also worth knowing / remembering that a text message will send in low signal better than a phone call will connect . This weekend , Nic and I joined our friends Roy and Chris for a relaxing run around Llanberis and surrounding villages , at the Snowdonia Marathon . The story of why we were there goes back just over a year , to my failed attempt at a PB in the 2011 Abingdon Marathon . And once we got there , we enjoyed what can only be described in a once - in - a - lifetime experience . Cast your mind back to October 2011 , when I was disappointed that my body , while clearly in the best condition it ever had been in , failed me for a second year as I attempted to break 3 : 20 . I knew I needed to put a lot more focus on my core strength and add more long , fast running to my schedule . Then , I had to write a few " for fun " races off my schedule while I recovered the minor niggles . It 's safe to say that I wasn 't in the best frame of mind for scheduling a fast road marathon for the third straight year . If we fast - forward slightly to January 1st , 2012 , when I came back from a slightly " merry " 5k jog to clear the fog , I had a text from Roy notifying me that entries had opened , and would be closing very quickly indeed . So , with both Nic and me still somewhat judgement - impaired from bringing in the New Year , we decided it would be a great first road marathon for Nic . I decided that I 'd had enough tilting at the 3 : 20 windmill and would enjoy doing a road race somewhere " just for the fun of it " . Then , the magical racing year that has been 2012 happened . As part of my ultra preparation , I had increased the core work , added a 4th run to my standard running schedule , and was enjoying the benefits of consistent training . By the end of August , every race I had run was either a course best ( trail ) or personal best ( 1mi , 1 . 3mi , 5km , 1 / 2mara ) . So , I started to look at 2011 Marathoneryri times from runners I know and compare against that 3 : 32 from Amsterdam to see if there was any chance of keeping my streak alive with another road PB . I concluded that it would be tight , but possible , and put a little more work into finding a sustainable uphill running effort for the final hill of the race . The idea of cracking my PB , set on a pancake - flat course , among the hills of Snowdonia struck me as the sort of convoluted achievement that I particularly enjoy . After all , a PB is always nice , but setting it with an extra 2500ft of ascent is so much better ! Along comes race day , and everything is set - after a few flakes of snow overnight , the sun came up to bring that rarest of beasts , a cold , bright , and dry day . Everyone was amazed - it was the first clear day the race had seen in many years . The previous 4 had all been held in truly wretched conditions . After my warm up ( yes , even for a marathon ! ) , I made a quick trip to the car to dig out the sunglasses to deal with that funny thing showing between the clouds . The race , in all , was an exercise in guesswork - there were no sections of the course where I could judge whether my pace would get me the time I wanted , because it 's such an undulating route . I started the first half mile slowly ( 8 : 30mm ) and just kept an easy effort going to the bottom of the first hill . As the road went down , the pace got faster , and when we hit the hill just after two miles , I just kept the rpms high and spun up like I would on a bike . I removed my Buff , pushed up my sleeves , and unzipped my top and just kept ticking along . Just after 4 . 6 miles , it was time for the downhill . Barring a few interruptions to climb up some very small hills , that downhill lasted a good 8 . 5 miles . Most road races don 't boast views like this ! Totally unable to tell if I was running fast enough or too fast based on pace , I went for the logic of " if I 'm hot , it 's too fast " . I tried to keep my effort level just high enough to feel warm , using my sleeves , zip , Buff , and gloves to manage the changing effects of the sun and wind . At half way , I was on 3 : 20 pace , which I knew was an unrealistic expectation because the second half has more ascent than the first half . So , I mentally allowed myself a net 5 - minute loss for the final hill , did my best not to lose too much on the steady drag from 13 - 15 miles ( I lost 2 minutes ) , and kept repeating the mantra " every minute not lost is a minute off your PB ! " for the 10km in between . This is the bit where Nic got bored of running on the road , so I 'm glad to have had a goal to help me keep focus . The climb at Waunfawr hurt , as expected . Hamstrings and calves started to rebel , and eventually I was pushed to a speed - walk to use some different muscles and try to stretch out the screaming ones . The run - walk strategy got me up the hill and I finally got to enjoy the final descent into Llanberis , although I got a gentle reminder that the legs have to be as ready as the head when I clipped a rock on the trail and spent a few seconds on the ground . Just a short burst down to Llanberis and it 's all over ! With a mad sprint down the mountain for 1 . 3 miles , I clawed back enough of the walking time to finish in 163rd with 3 : 31 : 16 - 70 seconds faster than I 'd run on the flat roads of the Dutch capitol . Twisted , for sure , but also evidence that two years of ( mostly ) consistent marathon and ultra racing are really paying off . A personal best on a course with 2500ft of climbing , a sunny day at the Snowdonia Marathon - it 's a combination that will almost certainly never happen again . When I entered this race , I briefly anticipated writing a reflection filled with discomfort , fighting through extreme lows , and the glory of pushing my body harder than I ever dreamed possible . Then , I shuddered , put all anticipation of anything other than a smiley start and a relieved finish out of my head and pretended that everything would be fine . After all , I kept saying , the race starts at the head of a river and ends at the mouth - it 's all down hill , right ? The day started cool and grey , as forecast , with moderate winds ( a big improvement on the gales and driving rain of the previous day ) . Nic 's parents kindly agreed to be crew for the day - their first ever such assignment , which saw Jeff cruelly taken from the clutches of his bed far too early for his day off . We arrived at the start at 8AM , to find RD Anneke preparing to receive runners . Many would register on the bus from the finish . Those of us lucky enough to have crew ( and / or like me , likely to lose their breakfast on a bus ) picked up our numbers in the tiny car park above Glenbuck . As usual , our target was to arrive early , relax , and have a bite to eat while waiting for the start . So , when we got out of the car and I looked at the delightful woodlands surrounding us , I noticed that there were no facilities other than the boxes waiting to receive our drop bags . I realised this really was going to be a pretty relaxed atmosphere . The registration area began to fill as the buses arrived , while Nic and I realised that we weren 't particularly nervous . Considering this would be my first time over 40 miles , and her first time over 28 , the chilled vibe was obviously rubbing off on us . With about 15 minutes to spare , I had a short jog to make sure my shoes were well tied , took some pics , and was ready to go . The race started with a great descent to get us all up to speed and quickly took us to into the open moorland that made up the first 10 miles of the route . Good , steady descents , a few short hills to break up the rhythm a little , and before I knew it , I was sheltering behind a few runners at about 45 seconds per mile faster than my preferred early pace . With the steady headwinds , the firm footing , and the lack of any notable hills , I decided to stick with it for a while , to see how things went . After all , I 've not really been used to running for any length of trail without some enforced walking breaks , so I wasn 't really sure how I would react to 8 : 45 minute miles . Had it been a flattish road race , I would have been quite happy with the conservative speed , but for the trails , sense said I was going to have to slow down at some point . For those not familiar with the race or the route , The River Ayr Way Challenge is organised by the East Ayrshire County Council - in particular the Countryside Services team . It 's pretty low key , well supported with regular water / feed / chat stations , and runs along the length of the River Ayr Way . The rangers had to put in some extra hard work this year , recovering / re - routing some sections of the RAW where it had disappeared after this winter 's ice floes and heavy rains . In many places , they had even been out strimming in the days before the race . Compared to what I normally run on , the path felt practically manicured ! We were truly spoiled in that respect . The early stages of the route set the tone for the whole of the RAW . There are pretty views in all directions , but few " wow ! " moments . Early on , we enjoyed miles of open moors , misty light on the distant hills , and plenty of slippery little wooden bridges to test the coordination . After 11 miles , my right calf ( this month 's muscular liability ) started to tug , so I eased back a bit . I didn 't fancy running another 30 miles on a cramping leg , and hoped that putting less strain on the leg would do the trick . By the time I hit the first check - in point with Jeff and Maggie , the leg was doing OK and I was running fairly freely . I was also 15 minutes ahead of schedule after only 17 miles , and wondering how bad the payback would be . The early moorland was giving way to wooded slopes as the river carved through the low hills . Easy running was about to take a back seat . The tough patch came , a bit later than expected , at around 25 miles . We had finally had some hills - all short , all sharp , with plenty of steps to make running difficult . Climbing up and down through the riverside woods had killed the pace and my legs . My right quad and ITB started to object , colouring my language nicely with each new staircase . Alas , no train to distract from the sore legs The difficult patch carried on into the new addition for this year 's running , a diversion near Stair where the old path unfortunately has now joined with the river itself . We slogged up a short hill through a nice , soupy pasture where the " mud " had a nice oily sheen to it . Best not to think about it all , really , but I did laugh that I had finally reached some trail that was like what I 've been enjoying throughout this rather moist summer . The cattle at the top of the hill looked on bemused , and I was happy to reach them with both shoes still on my feet . A couple of miles later , though , we ran through ankle deep water for long enough to wash the shoes . I splashed along , enjoying the cold water on my feet and keeping my hands above my head so I would still be happy to eat with them later . Unfortunately , I also managed to wash some large bits of grit into the shoes , in spite of my gaiters . By this time , I was 30 miles in , a little cranky , and more than just a little confused by anything that required much thought . At the 32 - mile check point , luckily , the in - laws were waiting with some extra brain cells for me to use . I stopped for a drink and a little chat , forgetting about my gritty feet . After a minute or two , I suddenly remembered that my shoes were full of ick . So , I sat down to empty my shoes and found that the grit had helped me to mangle my socks . With toes poking through the end , I knew another 10 miles would be manageable , but possibly a bit irritating , and stared blankly at my feet . Maggie asked if I had any socks in my end - of - race bag ( in the car boot ) . It took far too long for my brain to kick into gear , but I did have a spare pair for after the run , so was able to change socks . I ditched the gaiters while I was shoeless , and suddenly felt a lot lighter without the extra layer of wet fabric . Getting up wasn 't easy . The rest while I tended my feet did me some good , but it also cooled me off . So , as I walked up the next hill , I changed into my spare t - shirt . The clouds were firmly in place , so I didn 't need to worry about getting too warm as the afternoon continued . At 34 miles , I grabbed a drink and a bag of jelly worms from my drop bag , and carried on . With only 7 miles left , I knew I would be able to get it together and finish , even though I had lost any hope of a 7 - hour time . I always carry a phone for emergencies on a long run , and feared the worst when mine rang as I left the check point - surely Nic had fallen , broken her arms and legs , and was being rushed to hospital . Clearly , rational thought was taking a nap . Thankfully , the only problem was that , as tired as I was , I was still running better than the car . Jeff was calling to let me know that my bag might make it to the line before my crew . Gradually , I gathered myself and started to push on , trying to catch one person at a time in a battle of " who can slow down the least " . The underfoot conditions eased again as we neared the finish . With firm paths , tracks , and road , I was able to get back into a consistent running rhythm , getting back to 10 - minute miles for the final few . It 's easy to get down about working so hard to run so much slower than my normal As I approached the finish , I heard someone say " there 's only about 100 yards left " and put on a " sprint " for the line . At nearly 7 : 15 , I finished 20 minutes slower than my " good day " or " plan A " time , but inside of my " plan B " - pretty good for my first foray over 40 miles . If I had only managed a few minutes faster , I would even have beaten the car back to the finish - the issues had been dealt with and our ace crew had made it just in time . After getting cleaned up and refuelling a bit , I headed back up the course to cheer Nic into the finishing straight . Luckily for her , I had about half a mile of the route in view , and could pick her out in time to position myself for a good bellow of encouragement followed by a picture . Her plan B was " don 't finish last " , and her plan A was " sub 10 : 00 " . A 9 : 05 time showed that running conservatively for the first ultra was probably a good idea , and that there 's definitely more ability there than she gave herself credit for . Much like the route itself , there were no outstanding high or low points to my race . I had expected to hit the wall , struggle to carry on , battle with my usually temperamental digestion , feel elated when I finished , etc . etc . The reality was that everything just kind of ticked along . The weather was moderate . The marshals , supporters , and passers - by were all very friendly . As the race went on , I felt mostly in control ( as much as one ever is ) , never particularly strong , nor overly weak . I got tired , cranky , cheery , chatty , and quiet , much as I do over the course of any full day . Overall , it was just a normal , nice day out on some scenic trails among like - minded runners , with the added bonus of great support - what better way to spend a Saturday ? When we signed up for the Nairn Half Marathon , the goal was to have a bash at setting some fast times after a Summer of focus on speed rather than just endurance . I looked high and low for a flattish half in August or early September , and found one just a short drive from Nic 's sister and her family - the bonus of a family get - together made the race too good to pass up . Of course , it 's a 10 - 12 hour drive to get there , so a little planning was needed to make sure we arrived in condition to run ! Luckily , Nic 's folks live about 2 / 3 the way there , so we got to stop off and enjoy even more family time on both the out and back , as well as breaking up the drive . The Nairn Half has the unique ( to my knowledge , anyway ) feature of being part of the local Highland Games . So , unlike many local races , the spectators at the finish actually outnumber the runners by quite a large margin . It also means that there 's plenty going on when you finish , so the post - race is quite enjoyable . We arrived around 11am to register and avoid getting stuck in traffic heading for the Games , and took in as much of the grass track and arena as we could . Nic particularly enjoyed hearing the sound of a lone piper playing a short distance from the park as we wandered along the seaside paths . You can take the lassie out of Scotland . . . With around 30 minutes to go , we started our gentle warm - up , as usual checking out the 1st and last mile of the course , loosening limbs , etc . The clouds that had threatened to keep things cool for this afternoon race began to blow past , leaving us in no doubt that the weather would be abnormally warm for a visit to the northern beaches ! The clouds start to drift off as we get into our warm - up . At the start , the local runners were looking up , worried that the foreign yellow disc might stay put throughout the race . I had already added five seconds per mile to both of our planned first half splits , to allow for the added warmth in this cold and dreary Summer , so was confident that we would survive without too much damage from the sun . Nic 's sister had kindly leant us some sunscreen , since it 's not normally in our Scottish travel kit . It was a good thing , too , since our shoulders hadn 't spent much time in the open lately . At 12 : 30 , I found myself in the second row , waiting for the fast runners to come and line up in front of me . Only a few did , because everyone wanted the inside line for the initial lap of the track . When the gun ( and it was actually a starter 's pistol ! ) fired and the short stretch of jostling was finished , I found myself in around 6th place on the inside of the track . By the time we left the track , I was in the more sensible and lucky 13th position , keeping a close eye on my watch to make sure I wan 't going dangerously quickly . Within a quarter mile , nearly 20 runners passed me as I maintained my pace . I was confident some would come back eventually , based on previous years ' results . This year 's field was nearly twice the normal size , so I was curious to find out how many would come back if I finished in my goal time of sub - 1 : 30 . The first two miles of the course are fairly innocuous . The goal was to keep in the region of 6 : 50 before hitting the little hill in the 3rd mile . By the end of the 2nd mile , the field in front of me was at its largest , and the combination of the warm day and early enthusiasm was already starting to take its toll . When the hill approached , the first few runners came back quite quickly . I kept a beady eye on the watch to make sure I wasn 't riding the " thrill of the hunt " to blow my own race as I steadily worked my way back towards the top 20 . At the first water stop , I encountered my first " grab - and - stop " of the day . What is it that causes otherwise sensible people to grab the first available cup of water and suddenly break into a walk , making it impossible for the next runner to access either the way forward or the next cup of water ? I 'd like to say I pushed the offending runner into a ditch rather than simply running through him and spilling his water , but he apologized and I carried to get my own drink and douse without losing too much pace . From the " top " of the hill to the half way mark is a very gentle slope , or " false flat " , which means that every now and then , you can look down the road and wonder why it feels a bit harder than it should to maintain pace . As I approached the 5 mile marker , I encountered my first " walker " - he was definitely suffering from the searing sunshine and lack of a breeze . I noted a windmill turning well in the distance and immediately realized that the lack of air movement was essentially a tail - wind - a bit of a worry on what is basically an out - and - back course . At the next water stop , I tried to let the runner in front and the 1st volunteer know I was aiming for the 2nd volunteer 's water . Too late , the runner stopped right in front of me and the volunteer kindly tried to hand me water as I was passing through . I got an extra douse , apologized my way to the 2nd volunteer , grabbed some more water for a sip and shower and again continued on my way . At around 6 . 5 miles , a kind man had placed a sprinkler over the road to help cool us off - a welcome burst of cool since my vest had dried quickly after the water stop . Then , we turned into the wind and I stopped feeling hot . At first , the breeze was refreshing - it was only just starting to really get up . This section of the course was broadly down hill , with occasional short tree - lined stretches to offer a bit of shade . I had expected a reasonable amount of wind , but it was becoming quite an obstacle . I managed to maintain my pace through to 9 miles with an effort , losing a second here and there and finding it more difficult to recover the time . The 10th and 11th miles had some small hills , but nothing particularly taxing . Unfortunately , they also had some significant sections into the stiff headwind , and I dropped 50 seconds as I struggled against it . With the final push to the line , I got back onto pace with a good downhill and some changes of direction , but the damage was done . Sub - 1 : 30 would take a superhuman effort , and even getting a PB was at risk . I needed to leave everything on the road to have any chance of a good result , and pushed as hard as I could . The race finishes with a lap of the grass track , surrounded by cheering spectators , but I honestly couldn 't hear anything . I focused on following the yellow line and the runner a few seconds ahead and speeding up for all I was worth . In the end , I was about 200 yards too slow , finishing in 1 : 30 : 38 - 55 seconds faster than my previous best set in March . Nic suffered even more in the wind , having turned into it after it had already stopped just being a breeze . She still took a minute off her previous best , and is looking forward to a slightly more favourable day to pick up a couple more minutes . The day had been scheduled for some fast times , but the conditions were not the best on the day . We found out later that the wind had even been strong enough to cause problems at the beer tent at the Games - a temporary tragedy that was dealt with by removing the tent and running the bar under the blazing sun . We enjoyed a different recovery from the usual ( the beer tent was being dismantled as we finished ) , sitting with Nic 's sister and our nieces enjoying the track races , Highland dancing , tug - o ' - war , caber tossing , and marching pipe bands . I think we both suffered a little sunburn and no little windburn , but it was an amazing way to wind down from a hard race . I guess next year we 'll just have to train a little harder ! Running is addictive . It gets under our skin . Muscles , tendons , nerves all suffer when we run . On the best days , running transforms us . On the worst days , it is our final action . Every day in between is a day when we are running , could be running , should be running , dream about running , or prepare to run again . Many runners struggle to find time for running , and yet the time is somehow found . Many runners struggle to keep running from taking over their lives , and kid themselves that they have succeeded . This Spring , I finally stopped kidding myself . Running has taken over my life . This Spring , Cotswold Running stopped just being the name of a blog , it became a dream . In June , Cotswold Running became a company . In July , we opened entries into our first races , the Broadway Tower Marathon and Half Marathon . On August 1st , Cotswold Running became my full - time occupation . The part of my day that used to be dedicated to the automotive industry is dedicated to putting together the races that I 've dreamt of running - races ranging from 10 kilometres to 100 + miles on trails and hills that always call out to me , " Come run here , you 'll leave with a grin ! " . Success is measured not just in the number of runners at the starting line , but the smiles at the finish , the number of runners coming back for more , the number of towns , villages , and landowners welcoming us back to share their landscape for a few hours . Running is addictive . It 's gotten under my skin . Let the adventure begin ! Every year I look forward to the EVRC 's local invitational fell race , the Bredon Bash . We start in picturesque Elmley Castle , run up to the top of Bredon Hill to the tower , and then come back down . It 's around 5 . 8 miles and on a sunny day can include some stunning views . Alternatively , the mist can drop in and you can hardly see your hand in front of your face . This year 's edition , as with much of the past few weeks , was conducted under heavy cloud , steady rain , and a strong wind - horrible for the volunteers , but perfect for a fell race ! With the abysmal weather and entries only taken on the day , it wasn 't much of a surprise that only 49 hardy ( foolish ? ) souls from area clubs and villages entered . Having enjoyed a stellar year so far , my main goal was to take some time off of my time from 2011 . The ankle deep water and mud in places would make that a bit more challenging , but the descent is usually more forgiving when the going is soft to swampy , so I just made sure my shoes were well secured and headed out at the front of the " chasing pack " . Once we had left the road and made our way through a field of tall wet grass ( thank goodness for triple - knots ! ) , the slippery ascent began . I 've run this route in most weather , but haven 't seen the mud so deep for a couple of years . Those in road shoes would have to pick their way gently to the top . Those with more aggressive outsoles could run , although it was best to avoid the narrow " path " that had become more of a quagmire . There are a couple of sections on the hill that I normally have to walk due to burning calves , but these were fewer and shorter than I 'd previously managed . I hit the top of the hill in 11th place , but with plenty to do to make sure I got my new course - best time . The run along the top of the hill is gently undulating , and normally not too soft underfoot . This day was no different . The mud wasn 't overly deep . It was , however , frequently covered by several inches of water . I usually try to avoid stepping into something whose depth I can 't identify , but knowing the track helped me to go through many pools without too much worry , and I never had to worry about hot feet ! I reached the turnaround point still in 11th place ( caught one , lost one ) and gutted it out back to the top of the descent . By now , visibility was incredibly poor as we ran in the low cloud . However , with the wet path , I could hear the splashing runner behind me getting closer . I hit the muddy descent at full speed , hoping to lose my pursuer as I ducked under branches and high - stepped through tree roots . I don 't like getting passed on descents , especially ones that I know well enough to race through even in these conditions . But , with half of the hill left ahead , I was chasing . Together , my erstwhile shadow ( if only there 'd been a light source ! ) and I chased down my clubmate Mark ( he 's generally quite a lot faster than me , but his shoes weren 't cooperating with the terrain ) . At the bottom of the hill , I checked back to find another runner closing fast . When we broke free of the mud and back into the grassy field , I opened my stride to put as much space behind me as I could . I 'd managed to keep that 11th place for most of the race , and was far more interested in 10th than I was in 12th ! By the time I hit the final road section , I had closed back in on the runner ahead , and could see that he had left most of his energy on the hill . With just under half a mile to go , I went for broke and put in an effort designed to overtake and also ensure I stayed ahead . The speed sessions over the past few months have been paying off , because I still felt OK , even though it turns out I was running at my 5K pace ( it 's a bit downhill ) . Once again , we made our way on Wednesday evening to Cleeve Common for the hilly " sprint " that is the Cleeve Cloud Cuckoo 5 . 5 . Given the near constant rain over the past week , the clouds kindly broke up and headed north to give us a pleasantly sunny window in which to run . The race makes a figure of eight around the top of Cleeve Hill , near Cheltenham , taking in a few short hills and a couple of longer ones along the way . With a gentle uphill first quarter to sap the legs a bit , it gives a reminder that it always pays to be fully warmed up before the start . None of the hills in the early section is particularly special , but if the lungs and calves aren 't quite ready , you 'll hear all about it . Following the gentle loosener comes a delightful 950ft descent that is shallow enough to take at speed and steep enough to challenge one 's ability to stay upright . The payback is a climb out of the quarry bottom back onto the hill over the space of a mile and a bit . The first half mile of the climb is quite steep , with a gentler finish to the high point of the race . From here , we get a mile steady descent to recover on before a short , steep scramble before the wonderful 3 / 4mi downhill finish . This year 's event was well attended , with over 120 competitors . The course was a little different to last year with an extra quarter mile in the post - quarry part of the " eight " . Nic joined in , racing this year rather than simply sightseeing , and taking more than a minute per mile off compared to 2011 . I knocked 14 seconds off on average , to finish considerably further up the field ( close enough to see the 1st lady finish , which is usually a good target for me ) . All - in - all , a great way to spend a Summer 's evening . Yesterday , I set out for a nice , easy 20 mile run . I 'd selected my route from the list of go - to routes ( i . e . no map reading , close by , minimal planning required ) and gone for a fairly flat affair . With only 2 - 3 big hills , and lots of rolling stuff , I was looking forward to a nice , steady pace for 3 - 4 hours . The fact that the weather was filthy only added to the fun - a little soft mud underfoot is always nice . Some days , however , a nice route doesn 't necessarily make for a nice run . As I ran through Snowshill , one of the most beautiful villages around , it was sad to see people setting up tables and flags for the afternoon 's Jubilee street party . Rainwater was streaming off the tables like they were forming some kind of water slide . Then , as I got to the top of my first hill , I found out just how much of an impact last week 's sunshine had made . The grass was knee - to - thigh high along the path , and very wet indeed . I was taking in so much water every time I lifted a foot that my shoes began a lovely squelchy tune . For about a mile , I was shipping more water than I could squeeze out with each step - lovely . Once I was back out of the long grass , I began to wonder if I was losing my mind - I kept hearing voices from the trees . Nothing clear , just the occasional human voice , with no other sign of life . It was windy , and the sheep were making a racket , but I was pretty sure that my brain wasn 't creating a voice from these ambient noises . Eventually , I ran along a ridge with a clear view to the other side of a valley to see some sort of large event going on - obviously something with a PA system . It was hard to see what was going on , because they were as shrouded in the low cloud as I was . So , no evidence there that I 'm losing the plot ! I happily carried on in the knowledge that I 'm not losing my marbles into a field of bullocks . Those who know me will be aware that I 'm not that keen on cattle . They 're large , a little too curious , and somewhat unpredictable . So , with reassuring words to the youngsters that I was only passing through , I carefully walked through their pasture . Normally , I get a few stares and am left alone . The boys were a bit bored , I guess , and decided to gather round . It was a little disconcerting at first , as they formed a semi - circle and closed in to within a few feet . I stopped and stood completely still , in the hopes that they would lose interest and wander off . But , no , they decided to come a bit closer - not the response I was after ! With a little gentle hand waving , they backed away enough for me to try the slow walk again . A couple kept very close quarters , but eventually they let me go . Given the potential for young males of any species to be curious , energetic , and a bit thick in the head , I wasn 't sure where the situation would go . Any tips on how best to keep bullocks at a distance are most welcome . Luckily , the next herd a few miles later was more interested in eating than they were in me . I think I 'll give that route a miss for a few weeks ! By the time I was done with the low - speed cattle driving , I was starting to get cold ( yes , in June ) . From there , the rest of the run was about keeping warm ( hat , gloves , etc . ) and keeping going . Village after village had soggy street party decorations that looked a bit like I was beginning to feel - worse for wear . After 15 miles , I decided to call it a day and give in to the dreary weather . So , I cut a couple of miles off and headed back to Snowshill by road . On the up side , my new route took me through the lavender farm . The smell of the new buds in the rain lifted my mood and I jogged happily back to the car . Funny how the vagaries of the route can so easily alter the state of a tired and unfocussed mind ! The day , once again , started oh - so - very - early . After 2011 's fun , we decided that the race is easiest to manage if someone is following the baton , with a small band of dedicated family members and club runners acting as transport for the runners . As a result , we needed to be at the start before 5 : 00 . Having made my final substitution of an injured runner the day before , I was a little twitchy when the alarm went off at 3 : 50 . By 4 : 30 , I 'd confirmed that the first 2 runners were in position and headed to the start line with super - crew - chief Nic relieved that I wouldn 't have to stand in for the first leg . My leg wasn 't until the afternoon , to give me time to re - jig runners if needed , but I was happy to avoid the need for any last - minute shuffling . When I sent in the entry form , I still didn 't have a clear picture of the team . April is marathon season , and people have a tendency to drop out with injuries and insufficient recovery . With the list of ~ 15 runners , I knew at least a few wouldn 't make it to the start - but I didn 't know which ones . Therefore , I entered the team in the earliest start time to make sure we finished well in advance of the 18 : 00 target deadline . By the time the participant list had nearly solidified ( 3 days before the race ) , it was clear that we had a chance of a podium finish . Any event that lasts for 13 hours will have its little incidents . This year 's Hilly was no different . My leg 3 runner nearly missed the baton change by parking up about half a mile down the wrong road - we recovered her just in time . The leg 4 - 5 transition point was perfectly placed to attract the attention ( and wrath ) of a local farmer who really didn 't appreciate a load of runners parking in the drive to his farm . A change in transition points confused the team captain ( me ) and resulted in a poor estimation , which had the leg 6 runner handing over to said team captain a bit behind schedule . Add to that a great run by the leg 6 runner from Kenilworth , and I had my first 1 - on - 1 race in quite a long time ( honours even - after a big effort to close the gap , he struggled to hold on in the final 5km and I regained our buffer ) . Finally , 13 hours after the start , we confirmed that EVRC had successfully defended our 2011 B - race 3rd place ( as well as defending our title as 1st mixed team ) . Amazingly , we had knocked 39 minutes off last year 's time . I think we might just start at 6am next year - I look forward to the extra sleep ! This weekend is a three - day one , due to the national holiday celebrating the first floods of the year ( or possibly May Day , if you don 't live near a river ) . To celebrate the extra recovery time available , it is customary to put on stupidly difficult races . In 2010 , I ran my first trail marathon ( Three Forts Challenge ) . In 2011 , I completed my final Endurancelife Coastal Trail Series marathon of the year at the inaugural Endurancelife Festival . I can confidently say that the latter was the more difficult course . I had planned to head back to Sussex to have another go at the Three Forts , but then I saw some of the other races available on the weekend . Plan A was Malvern Ultra due to the lack of travel required . However , once Nic was successfully putting away the training miles , we changed plans and set our sights on the Welsh Hills . For this change of plans , I blame my good friend Roy . Roy and I have been training together for a few years now . If ever I want to find a new route , I ask Roy along . We 're a similar pace , like similar trails , and are equally good at finding " scenic " options to the path we 're meant to be following . He has been singing the praises of the Red Kite & Ras y Diafol ( Devil 's Race ) for a year or two , and when Nic suggested that she get to choose a race for once , we decided to give it a shot . On paper , the weekend shouldn 't be too hard : 11 miles on Saturday , 17 miles on Sunday , ~ 5000ft of ascent combined . It should be no more difficult than this year 's CTS courses , so why not have a nice weekend running in the hills ? Day one takes place from the Red Kite visitor centre ( great viewing of these amazing birds ) , and day two is just a few miles away . Add to the fun that friends Roy , Chris , Ned , and Sheila were all running both days , and what could be more relaxing ? And then , of course , one pins on the race number and all thoughts of a relaxed and scenic run go out the window . They are replaced by thoughts like " It 's only 11 miles " and " race today and then worry about tomorrow when it comes " . Having tried to race last month 's Exmoor ultra and come slightly unstuck , I decided to listen to the speed demon on my shoulder rather than the armchair angel . Nic 's picture from the Red Kite Challenge . The Red Kite Challenge also happens to be the Welsh trail running championships , so the field is pretty handy . A couple of local international - class runners turn up to have a wee sprint while the rest of us grind it out in their wake . The race starts with a gentle run around the lake and then throws in a few modest climbs of between 100ft and 400ft , before giving us an amazing two - mile , 900ft descent . I 'm pretty sure this was the first time I had ever put two sub - 6 miles into a race ( I haven 't even done that in a 5K ! ) , and that was taking the hill with a fair amount of control to save something for the inevitable uphill . It was an amazing feeling to be moving that quickly for an extended period . Eventually , the down ended and we went straight back up out of the valley - another 800ft in a little under two miles of fast hiking with occasional runnable bits . Upon reaching the top , my climbing muscles were in rebellion , but the race was over half - way finished . The final five miles were gently undulating ( little rolling 100 - 200ft ups and downs ) , which certainly kept the heart rate high as I tried to keep from losing too many places to the more practised fell runners . A final sprint got me to the line in a reasonable time , but with not much energy left . I was even too tired to eat any of the delicious - looking fruitcake on offer at the finish . Once everyone had finished , we made for the tea shop and I joined the queue . They must have run out of tea , because eventually we gave up on the lack of progress and headed back out onto the balcony to watch the kites and wait for the award ceremony . Chris and Roy showed their experience by bringing a huge Thermos of hot water and sharing out some very warming coffee - saviours ! With prizes for the open race , Welsh race , and age groups , the prize - giving lasted for quite some time . But , I 'm glad we stayed because Nic picked up an age - group silver medal for her sterling effort ! Ned , Sheila , and Chris picked up age - group bronzes , and Roy and I won the opportunity to buy drinks in the pub later in the evening . Day two was a bit more of a relaxed affair . Only a fraction of the field come out to do the combined event , and a few people turn out just to do the longer run . The plan on Saturday morning was to just take this as a recovery run , but once again the number got pinned to the chest and sense got left in the kit bag . However , I had a pack on this time , so at least had the chance to take a few pictures on the run . The course starts fairly gently , with a short downhill and a steady uphill . We were joined by some enthusiastic horses for a short time ( somewhere just out of the picture ) . Just before mile three , we began what seemed like a fairly innocuous climb and then turned into mountain - goat territory . At this point , I started a game of hill leapfrog with Sheila that lasted nearly nine miles . She would leave me for dust on the ups and I would catch her and try to gain some margin on the downs . The challenge of the day was the two - mile , 1000ft climb up to nearly half - way . As I dragged myself up the switchbacks , Roy caught up for a brief chat and Sheila pulled well clear . I managed not to lose too many places with my relatively slow pace , but it was a huge effort to keep any pace at all . At last , the long uphill was finished . The hill finally ended with a short section through a wind farm . It was amazing to pass so close to the majestic , near - silent drone of the blades as they slowly rotated . From there , we had nearly three miles of descent broken by the occasional sharp hill during which to " recover " . I eventually caught up to Sheila again , just in time to ruin it all with yet another uphill section . From 12 . 5 miles , it 's essentially down hill to the finish . Unfortunately , I slightly missed a step and jarred my right leg on some stairs . By the time I reached 14 miles and the end of a long steep road , my right calf was objecting to the point of full cramp . I 'd been taking salt tablets to avoid cramp since I was dripping with sweat for much of the race , but obviously the calf didn 't enjoy having to take up the slack for the muscles that suffered from the earlier misstep . So , with a few stops to massage and stretch , I started to lose time properly . The silly leg did ease up enough to get back up to a reasonable jog , but not before Roy caught me . I could see the joy on his face from catching me at last , and wished him well ( something encouraging like " carry on , because I 'm going to try to catch you ! " ) . It was the kick up the backside I needed to get back into a proper run . It didn 't feel great , but it also didn 't feel like getting worse . Although I struggled any time the ground was particularly rough , I could focus on chasing Roy . I started to see more runners that I 'd long - since passed lining up in the distance behind me , and that gave me even more encouragement to " man - up " and move faster . That , for me , is one of the key differences between racing a run and just running it for the experience . When I 'm racing , finishing position matters . When I 'm running just against myself and the course , then the watch and the view are the arbiters of success . I knew as we came into the last mile that I couldn 't catch Roy ( I 'm sure he 'd have died before letting go of the few hundred metres margin he built up ) . But I also knew that I could keep the line of runners where they were - behind me . As the line approached , I was 2nd in a loose group of three . The runner behind me sprinted for the line with an energy that I certainly did not possess . When the man in front didn 't respond to his charge , I decided to give it a go and slowly ramped up into an ugly sprint . This time , he responded - obviously he saw the state of me and decided he just couldn 't lose to such a wreck . We shouted each other to the finish in an epic battle against our rebellious legs . It 's all fun and games at the end of a great run . ( courtesy of Alastair Tye ) The double - race weekend was tough , but was also a lot of fun . It 's great to share the race experience with friends , and two - day events double the pleasure . Chris and Sheila picked up awards for the Ras y Diafol , and all three ladies won their age categories for the combined events . I won a very fine bar of chocolate for completing both events , which was rather welcome on Monday afternoon when the munchies hit . There are , as I said , a lot of great events on the May Day holiday weekend . I think the others may take a back seat for a few years , because I have already pencilled a return to Wales for next year ! I 've been running on and off since my first 1 mile fun - " run " in 1976 - I was 3 at the time . Now , I spend as much time enjoying the trails as much as I do running on the road . I organize trail races in the UK and coach at my local running club and online . I enjoy running in the mud . Frequently , I even enjoy running through standing water - especially if my feet are a bit tired or sore . As a . . .

I enjoy running in the mud . Frequently , I even enjoy running through standing water - especially if my feet are a bit tired or sore . As a result , I have days where I end a run with almost as much muck in my shoes as on them . I started wearing gaiters a few years ago , with Inov - 8 's DebriSoc - a sock with built - in gaiter . When the sock part finally met its holey demise , I cut off the sock and kept using the gaiter . Last year , before the River Ayr Way Challenge , I finally replaced the decrepit old things with a new pair of Inov - 8 Debris Gaiter ( tm ) 32 . They were partially successful , but they are dreadfully dull to look at , and , ever the magpie , I have been eyeing up the wantonly excessive decoration of the Dirty Girl gaiters that are now easily available in the UK via The ULTRAmarathon Running Store . Thanks to my fabulous parents - in - law , on Boxing Day I had the chance to test out the Dirty Girls , so here 's my view of how Inov - 8 and Dirty Girl stack up on a wet and filthy trail run . The Inov - 8 Debris Gaiter is pretty simple : put on gaiter , put on shoe , slide elastic bands under the shoe and hook the tab onto your laces - what could be easier ? They cover the lace knots nicely on most shoes , which is helpful in mud as well as long wet grass . They 're also fairly absorbant , which can be a hassle if there 's a lot of water as well as grit on the route . The ankle cuff is a bit bulky , which can result in quite warm ankles if you 're out on a summer run . With a price ranging from £ 11 to £ 15 , and coming in any colour you like , so long as it 's black , these gaiters keep the mud out at a good price . The Dirty Girl Gaiters stand out visually , with over 20 patterns from which to choose . The attachment to the shoe is very straight - forward . There 's a one - time ( or now - and - then ) process requiring you to stick a bit of self - adhesive velcro onto the back of your shoeand then wait a day . To wear , put on the gaiter , put on the shoe , then velcro the back of the gaiter to the shoe and hook the front to the bottom shoelace . They are made from a basic polyester / lycra blend , so are a little stretchy but not too clingy . The gaiter is also very light , even on a very wet day . They don 't absorb much water , and are reasonably cool . I comfortably wore mine ( without trail shoes ) around the house for an afternoon to check the fit while I waited for the velcro to set on my shoes , and hardly noticed them . On the down side , the cost of all the pretty colours is an extra few £ on the pricetag . Things to be aware of about both brands : if you wear shoes without laces ( e . g . most Five - Fingers ) , you are going to have to find something to hook the gaiters to at the front . An elastic band around a toe or two will do in a pinch . If you wear La Sportiva shoes , you will also struggle to find a lace to hook onto . I successfully used the elastic band from my old DebriSoc around the forefoot . Nic made a fixing point by running a safety pin along the top of her lace - gaiter with good effect . With a bit of time and fishing line , I expect the best method will be to stitch in a loop at the bottom of the lace gaiter . If you are more concerned about grass , pebbles , and dry debris than mud and wet grit , then the Inov - 8 gaiter is certainly sufficient for your needs and gives good value . For all - round use , the Dirty Girl wins hands down on ability to withstand a wet run without adding to the weight on your feet . They have a tighter weave , so also kept out more fine grit than the Inov - 8 gaiters . If you 're going to be spending any length of time in the wet , and the current weather pattern suggests we all will be , then I would suggest spending the extra on the Dirty Girl . And if you don 't fancy colourful feet , you can always go for the olive green or nearly black options . Ah , December ! That time of year when we look back and pretend that the previous 12 months formed some kind of continuous experience that will magically end , be packaged up , and replaced by another year - long block . Life , if we 're lucky , lasts quite a long time , so like any good long run , we break it into manageable pieces , taking and planning one step at a time . Every now and then , when things are going well , it 's possible to take a step outside of this artificial time line and see that everything is connected , all our future somehow dependent on the miles that have come before . We transcend the map , the GPS , and the strange taste caused by too many gels , and everything somehow fits into the great vision . That 's usually about the time I trip over a tree root . How did 2012 fit into the progression that is my grand plan of life and running ? Let 's put on the hindsight goggles and have a look . I ended 2011 with two predictions for 2012 . Prediction 1 : the dry weather we 'd been enjoying could not possibly continue - rather unfortunately , I was right , and am now musing about downsizing to a houseboat before the house becomes a boat . Prediction 2 : a good early season could lead to a tilt at running the whole Cotswold Way during the summer - this never really made it onto the priority list . 2012 started as a busy racing year . The first half of the year included 15 races of distances ranging from 1 to 34 miles . I ran 100 race miles fewer than in 2011 , due to the reduction in the number of marathons . I also raced at a minute and a half per mile faster , again due in part to fewer marathons . By adding ultras to the calendar , I had an incentive to boost my training miles , logging 50 % more in 2012 ( ~ 1800 for the year ) . Somehow , the second half of the year seemed to include all of the " A " races for 2012 . That hadn 't been the plan , it 's just how the desire , energy , and ambition played out . By mid - July , every race that had a comparator was a " best " of some kind . For standard distance races , I had picked up a new PB at 1mi , 5km , and half marathon . For races I had done before , I picked up course bests , including the two ultras where I beat my equivalent 2011 marathon times as part of the ultras . 2012 was shaping up rather nicely . I was successfully building on 2011 , which had indeed been a " breakthrough " year . Looking forward to the first " A " race , at Nairn , I started to get a little ambitious and before I knew it , I was targeting a sub 1 : 30 half ( nearly made it ! ) , my first 40 + mi race , and a new marathon PB on one of the toughest road courses in the country ( it 's not actually that bad - just one tough hill towards the end ) . All through the fun of racing , there was an undercurrent of trying to figure out how to make running more than just a hobby . During the summer , we launched Cotswold Running as a venture to organise races and eventually other running - related experiences . The enterprise started well , with an enjoyable event at Broadway Tower ( according to those who slogged through the mud ) , and will continue into 2013 with other fun challenges on the cards . Having stared back with the hindsight goggles on , 2012 looks like a year full of enormous change . I was happily racing faster at all distances and running further than ever before . Working life headed in a completely different direction . What was going on ? But , if we ignore the artificial barrier that is January 1st , the year is simply a bridge from what came before to what lies ahead . The running achievements flowed nicely as a result of the base laid in 2011 , and have set me up for a potentially exciting 2013 . April 's Highland Fling is inked in as the spring " A " race , and a few other interesting races are finding their way onto the plan . Career - wise , what appears from the outside to be a complete divergence from the past is really just another stepping stone along the way , building on years of varied experiences and leading to - well , we 'll just have to see where it leads . As the upper in my previous right trail shoe decreased its attachment to the lower portion of the shoe , I started to look out for a new model and brand . Nic has been quite happy in her choice of La Sportiva Crosslites for several hundred miles , but when I tried a pair , the fit wasn 't really what I was looking for . I 've been wearing Inov - 8s since 2008 , which makes it tough for anything new to get past the " first impression " test . I liked the upper and the rock plate , but something wasn 't quite " right " . So , when I had the opportunity to try on a pair of Crosslite XC at the Snowdonia Marathon mini - expo , I took the chance and was pleasantly surprised . The next thing I knew , I had a pair of shoes tucked under the wardrobe waiting for the untimely demise of my Roclites . After my trip to the Wrekin last month , the time had finally come to try something new . Carrying my new shoes in my backpack , I ran for my favourite proving ground - Bredon Hill . My preferred approach up the hill begins with a steady track around a ploughed field , carries on through a firm pasture , slogs through a load of boggy muck , up a wetland that was like a shallow stream after all the rain , up a limestone track , and along a path that alternates between grass , slippery roots , mud , and rock . Then it 's a nice circuit of the hill and back down . In a little over 7 miles , this route offers a fantastic mix of terrains and textures to test out a new pair of shoes . The first thing you notice when you put on the Crosslite XC is that you can 't get to the bottom of your laces . Adjusting the tension requires an old - fashioned tug on the ends and some hope that you 'll get it right . It took a few tries , especially with cold fingers ( I 'd had a nice , if very cold , road run to reach my testing ground ) . After a couple of stops , I got the laces right and was able to tuck them into the gaiter . The gaiter comes up high enough to provide a good anti - muck layer above the most vulnerable grit access point , but not quite far enough to allow you to completely hide the knots . Being able to tuck away the loops in the laces should help to keep the shoes from being untied by running through long grass , but the knots still get caked with mud as you find with any other shoe that needs to be tied . The rubberized toe box and reinforced upper proved suitably robust against the various rocks , sticks , and roots I encountered on my way . My feet kept reasonably dry when running through small amounts of mud , and the shoes seemed to drain quickly when I went through anything particularly deep . I never felt like the shoe was holding an unnecessary amount of the water I was running through . The Crosslite XC is billed as an aggressive fell and trail shoe , designed for wet and slippery conditions . The outsole bears out the description . The lugs are angled in all directions to support forward motion - the outer lugs on the forefoot are angled to resist sliding away from the centre line , the main forefoot lugs are angled to grip and pull through as you go up hill and to push mud away as you go down hill , and at the back you can see the lugs turned around , so they offer extra grip as your heel digs into the shifting earth / scree on a messy descent . The " FriXion " rubber compound is a soft rubber , ideal for wet rock . The grip on wet limestone descents was unexpectedly good , comparing quite favourably to the popular Inov - 8 Mudclaw . The harder sole on the standard Crosslite is not quite as sticky across wet rock , but wears well on the road sections of a route - I 'm not sure how long the XC will cope with the inevitable road running between trails , but the extra stability on wet limestone is worth it on my local trails . I felt incredibly well connected to the ground on my descent through wet leaves , rock , roots , and grass , with good grip throughout . Towards the end of my run , I tested the built - in gaiters with a knee - deep mis - step . Very little filth got into the shoe , which made a nice change from my previous pair . I did manage to sweep some grit into the shoes as I washed off the mud in a stream , but nothing more than could be expected with the vigour of my swishing about . Happily , the shoes also released the water as I ran , so there was no squelching after just a field or two . As I sat to change back into road shoes for the 10K run home from the test , I encountered an unexpected bonus . Although I hadn 't really noticed the fit once I got the lace tension right , the Crosslite XC heel box fits me perfectly , with no slipping . My feet typically tear out the heel box cushioning in all of my shoes , but these gripped in just the right places - to the extent that I struggled to get the slimy things off my very wet feet ! In summary , the Crosslite XC is an excellent fell shoe , great for wet and slippery conditions , with a great fit . It handles rough terrain as well as its better - known rivals , and feels like it will last a bit longer . It seems like La Sportiva are phasing it out ( I can 't find it on their website any more ) , so it 's worth stocking up before they disappear entirely . That said , based on my experience so far , I 'd happily consider any new light - weight replacement the manufacturers come out with . Mid - life update : It 's nearing the end of February , and I 've put nearly 200 miles on these shoes , so I thought it useful to update the review . Mostly , I have been running in mud - up muddy hills , down muddy hills , through wet and muddy fields . The longest I 've spent in the shoes is around 6 . 5 hours . They really do drain well . I 've managed 1 dry run in that time , and the shoes held up well . My feet didn 't get too hot , but I must say that after 20 miles , I was feeling a bit battered by the combination of already - tired feet , minimal cushioning and the fairly rigid sole . I 'm quite happy to run on a minimally cushioned shoe , but I would have liked a bit more freedom for my feet for a run of that distance given the amazing lack of soft ground on that day . As with nearly every shoe I 've worn this winter , I am seeing some heavy wear around the toe box . But , unlike my Inov - 8s , I haven 't had any holes developing in the Crosslite XC . The fabric is pretty robust . The test will be whether it separates from the sole after another hundred miles . So far , the signs are that the shoe will last well . This week , I 've mostly not felt like running . It doesn 't happen often , but when it does , I listen to my body and get in a bit of extra rest . The benefit of occasionally taking a break is having the energy to get out and throw in an extra race as a reward ! So , with friends Mitch , Roy , and Chris , I headed out to run all ' round The Wrekin . I had missed out on the race last year , due to injury at Abingdon , so was happy to have a chance to try it out this year . This race is a category A fell race , which means it 's steep ( average 50m / km of climb ) . It also means there will be plenty of top class competitors there to make sure I don 't get lost as I follow their footprints . The route was very well marked , well marshalled , but could have done with a few more slow runners to pad my ego when I look at the results . We started in the middle of a wood with temperatures hovering around 4C and quickly headed along a narrow , undulating track before the first ascent of The Wrekin . It wasn 't particularly difficult , just a case of getting up by alternating between a run and a fastish hike . By the time I hit the top , I was warm , but wasn 't about to take off my gloves or headwear - I wanted a little extra protection in case I took a tumble on the rather steep scree slope that was just around the corner . On top of the hill , the sun was shining bright and I briefly considered the decision to keep my shades on my head to have been correct . Then , we were back into the woods and they started to bounce along as the route headed down the hill . It 's been a few months since I 've raced hard in the hills , and it showed . My feet weren 't moving as quickly as I would have liked when I got to the scree slope , but I managed the first half quite happily . The sliding , jumping over roots , and general high - concentration , high - turnover descent was a lot of fun . I did cop out at about half way and steady myself against a tree , trying to clear my eyes that were watering from a mixture of cold air and adrenaline . Unfortunately , shortly after I resumed my run / shuffle / ski / jump down the hill , I found myself facing up the hill , sliding feet - first towards the bottom , somehow having pitched forward , landed on my side , rolled onto my back , and then onto my front as I tried to stop the slide and get back to my feet . I expect it looked spectacular , but it also left my shades a few yards up the hill and I had to trudge back up to get them . Mitch looked up when he got to the bottom in time to see me stand up , arms aloft , as though I had just completed a fantastic dismount from the pommel horse . It wasn 't the most serious fall , but apparently it had style ! The next couple of miles , gently climbing , were pretty unpleasant . I 'd winded myself a bit in the fall , and found it a struggle to run much faster than a gentle jog . When we reached the 1 : 3 clamber back up the hill , I was feeling pretty beaten up by the course . Still , by 4 . 5 miles , we had 2 of the 3 ascents complete and it was due to be plain sailing , surely . Once again , we headed down the hill and into the woods . The track was a little less steep than the previous ascent , but full of roots , rocks , leaves , and other obstacles to keep the mind sharp . The final climb was steep and steady , but by then I was starting to feel OK again and just worked along with the group of runners that had been catching me since my fall . The final descent was incredibly challenging and full of trip hazards , and I would have loved to watch some of the more experienced fell runners as they passed me . I caught glimpses of very fast - moving legs , but mostly tried to focus on where my slightly plodding feet were going to land . Finally , with a mile or so to go , we were back onto normal , undulating trail , and I was able to pick up the pace and try to pull a bit of time back and finish 71st , around 1 / 3 down the field . I enjoyed the mini buffet at the end while cleaning my wounds and waiting for the results . All told , a bit of fun , a bit of sun , and a race I may just go back and try to finish without hitting the deck . On January 1st , 2012 , I entered the Snowdonia Marathon . A few weeks later , I bought a pair of Inov - 8 Road - X ( tm ) 233s , with the intention of easing down another 3mm of heel drop in my road shoes . With a spring full of trail racing , the 233s lasted longer than expected , with only around 400 miles on them as summer came to an end . And then I looked at the course and the location again , and realised that I would never be able to blast down a wet , grassy , slippery , rainy trail in a shoe with virtually no traction on wet grass . They would be great for 24 . 5 miles of the race , but the 1 . 5 miles where I intended to recover nearly all of the time I would lose on the final climb , so I needed to be certain of my footing . What to do ? After searching for a low profile shoe with a bit of grip in a brand I could slip straight into , I opted to run my annual road marathon in trail shoes . After all , I 'd run almost all of my long runs during the year in trail shoes , so why not ? That brings me to the F - Lite ( tm ) 230s . The 230s are listed on Inov - 8 's website as a fitness shoe that 's also designed for hard - pack trails and tarmac . Oddly , though , they aren 't listed among the Inov - 8 road shoe range . So , I checked with SouthLakesGuy on Twitter ( he knows a bit about Inov - 8s ) , and he confirmed they are great all - rounders . I only had two concerns before they arrived - the outsole and the upper . The F - Lite sole is incredibly flexible , to the point where it felt like they would bend any direction my foot wanted to go . When I wore them on a 21 mile practice run , it was like going out in my slippers - I could feel every bit of road . To me , that 's a good thing . It has a little bit of tread , in Inov - 8 's sticky rubber compound , but nothing overly agressive . So , the outsole passed the initial test . Recently , the uppers on my Roclite ( tm ) 285 trail shoes have shown a bit of weakness against the strain across the forefoot , tearing away from the toe reinforcement on my right foot . The 230 upper , with a less rigid reinforcement , molds better to my foot and fits much more like the Road - X , so has not had the same problem . My worry that the upper wouldn 't survive the training proved unfounded , thankfully . Update Jan 24 , 2013 : Amazingly , with less than 400mi on the clock , the upper has separated from the lower . It 's so disappointing , because these have been great on the slushy pavements and snow . Yes , they 're getting on a bit , but I 'd rather hoped the upper would last as long as the sole , since I have been almost exclusively on the road with these . This seems to be an undesired and recurring issue . So , the shoes seemed fine and dandy , but how did they do on the day ? First , having very little weight on my feet over the course of 3 . 5 hours was great . The less my legs had to pick up , the better . Relative to the 233s , it 's not much difference , but the alternatives I 'd been looking at were in the region of 30 % heavier , which starts to count after a while . I have tested the 230s on wet grass and mud , and they are more effective than the Road - X , but I wouldn 't advise taking them on a long muddy run , as they really have only as much grip as any standard road shoe would in the conditions . Comfort - wise , I caught a sharp rock at about 5 miles and briefly wished for a shoe with a rock plate as I continued racing down the rocky path . The pain dissipated once the route took us back onto the road , but the rocky track wasn 't very nice . I like to feel the ground when I run , but if you 're going to spend more than a mile or two on rocky trails , I would advise something a bit more rugged . For pure road , the extra little bit of cushion under the balls of the feet you get in the Road - X is a nice change . In terms of fit , of my 3 pairs of Inov - 8s , the F - Lite fits best . There are no pinch points like I experienced with the 285 , and the heel cup fits much better than the 233 . There have been no hotspots or blisters with any of them , so that 's not really an issue . Normally , I only write about my own efforts or occasionally Nicola 's . Last weekend , for the first time in a while , I crossed the fence to the dark , hidden side of running : race directing . The majority of that activity will remain dark and hidden - races are much like sausages : you enjoy them more if you don 't see them being made . But , here are a few reflections on the day . The routes for the Broadway Tower Marathon & Half Marathon have been under design for quite some time . The original route was planned in the spring and in place early in the summer , with the diversion ( the one I designed , not the unplanned ones ) decided a bit more recently . They include some of the most beautiful views the area has to offer , even on a rainy day . On a nice day , the route can be absolutely stunning . Over the past few years , these trails have been fantastic to run on , with occasional slippery bits and plenty of good hard - packed , often rock hard ground . With the ridiculous amount of rain we 've had locally this summer , some of the fields turned to sticky , muddy , horrible mires - especially in the 3rd quarter of the marathon course . Having run nearly all of the route on the Wednesday and Thursday before the race , I am full of admiration for all of the competitors . Conditions underfoot were tough out there on Saturday ( but not a patch on how bad it was amid Sundays downpours ! ) , and if the sun hadn 't come out I dare say we would have had a regular transfer service running from the 20mi check point to the race base . In every event , there are plenty of unexpected surprises on the day , for runners and organisers . I can 't imagine how difficult it would have been for everyone without the telephone safety net . A few people needed some extra directions and reassurance they were on the right route and phoned to check . A few probably should have made calls but didn 't . For anyone planning to run on the trails , whether racing or training , it 's always a good idea to take a phone . A quick text or call to say " I 'm lost , " " I 'm OK , just really slow , " " I 'm really cold and need some help " can be the difference between a good day and a disastrous one . Personally , I 've used my phone for all of the above . It 's also worth knowing / remembering that a text message will send in low signal better than a phone call will connect . This weekend , Nic and I joined our friends Roy and Chris for a relaxing run around Llanberis and surrounding villages , at the Snowdonia Marathon . The story of why we were there goes back just over a year , to my failed attempt at a PB in the 2011 Abingdon Marathon . And once we got there , we enjoyed what can only be described in a once - in - a - lifetime experience . Cast your mind back to October 2011 , when I was disappointed that my body , while clearly in the best condition it ever had been in , failed me for a second year as I attempted to break 3 : 20 . I knew I needed to put a lot more focus on my core strength and add more long , fast running to my schedule . Then , I had to write a few " for fun " races off my schedule while I recovered the minor niggles . It 's safe to say that I wasn 't in the best frame of mind for scheduling a fast road marathon for the third straight year . If we fast - forward slightly to January 1st , 2012 , when I came back from a slightly " merry " 5k jog to clear the fog , I had a text from Roy notifying me that entries had opened , and would be closing very quickly indeed . So , with both Nic and me still somewhat judgement - impaired from bringing in the New Year , we decided it would be a great first road marathon for Nic . I decided that I 'd had enough tilting at the 3 : 20 windmill and would enjoy doing a road race somewhere " just for the fun of it " . Then , the magical racing year that has been 2012 happened . As part of my ultra preparation , I had increased the core work , added a 4th run to my standard running schedule , and was enjoying the benefits of consistent training . By the end of August , every race I had run was either a course best ( trail ) or personal best ( 1mi , 1 . 3mi , 5km , 1 / 2mara ) . So , I started to look at 2011 Marathoneryri times from runners I know and compare against that 3 : 32 from Amsterdam to see if there was any chance of keeping my streak alive with another road PB . I concluded that it would be tight , but possible , and put a little more work into finding a sustainable uphill running effort for the final hill of the race . The idea of cracking my PB , set on a pancake - flat course , among the hills of Snowdonia struck me as the sort of convoluted achievement that I particularly enjoy . After all , a PB is always nice , but setting it with an extra 2500ft of ascent is so much better ! Along comes race day , and everything is set - after a few flakes of snow overnight , the sun came up to bring that rarest of beasts , a cold , bright , and dry day . Everyone was amazed - it was the first clear day the race had seen in many years . The previous 4 had all been held in truly wretched conditions . After my warm up ( yes , even for a marathon ! ) , I made a quick trip to the car to dig out the sunglasses to deal with that funny thing showing between the clouds . The race , in all , was an exercise in guesswork - there were no sections of the course where I could judge whether my pace would get me the time I wanted , because it 's such an undulating route . I started the first half mile slowly ( 8 : 30mm ) and just kept an easy effort going to the bottom of the first hill . As the road went down , the pace got faster , and when we hit the hill just after two miles , I just kept the rpms high and spun up like I would on a bike . I removed my Buff , pushed up my sleeves , and unzipped my top and just kept ticking along . Just after 4 . 6 miles , it was time for the downhill . Barring a few interruptions to climb up some very small hills , that downhill lasted a good 8 . 5 miles . Most road races don 't boast views like this ! Totally unable to tell if I was running fast enough or too fast based on pace , I went for the logic of " if I 'm hot , it 's too fast " . I tried to keep my effort level just high enough to feel warm , using my sleeves , zip , Buff , and gloves to manage the changing effects of the sun and wind . At half way , I was on 3 : 20 pace , which I knew was an unrealistic expectation because the second half has more ascent than the first half . So , I mentally allowed myself a net 5 - minute loss for the final hill , did my best not to lose too much on the steady drag from 13 - 15 miles ( I lost 2 minutes ) , and kept repeating the mantra " every minute not lost is a minute off your PB ! " for the 10km in between . This is the bit where Nic got bored of running on the road , so I 'm glad to have had a goal to help me keep focus . The climb at Waunfawr hurt , as expected . Hamstrings and calves started to rebel , and eventually I was pushed to a speed - walk to use some different muscles and try to stretch out the screaming ones . The run - walk strategy got me up the hill and I finally got to enjoy the final descent into Llanberis , although I got a gentle reminder that the legs have to be as ready as the head when I clipped a rock on the trail and spent a few seconds on the ground . Just a short burst down to Llanberis and it 's all over ! With a mad sprint down the mountain for 1 . 3 miles , I clawed back enough of the walking time to finish in 163rd with 3 : 31 : 16 - 70 seconds faster than I 'd run on the flat roads of the Dutch capitol . Twisted , for sure , but also evidence that two years of ( mostly ) consistent marathon and ultra racing are really paying off . A personal best on a course with 2500ft of climbing , a sunny day at the Snowdonia Marathon - it 's a combination that will almost certainly never happen again . When I entered this race , I briefly anticipated writing a reflection filled with discomfort , fighting through extreme lows , and the glory of pushing my body harder than I ever dreamed possible . Then , I shuddered , put all anticipation of anything other than a smiley start and a relieved finish out of my head and pretended that everything would be fine . After all , I kept saying , the race starts at the head of a river and ends at the mouth - it 's all down hill , right ? The day started cool and grey , as forecast , with moderate winds ( a big improvement on the gales and driving rain of the previous day ) . Nic 's parents kindly agreed to be crew for the day - their first ever such assignment , which saw Jeff cruelly taken from the clutches of his bed far too early for his day off . We arrived at the start at 8AM , to find RD Anneke preparing to receive runners . Many would register on the bus from the finish . Those of us lucky enough to have crew ( and / or like me , likely to lose their breakfast on a bus ) picked up our numbers in the tiny car park above Glenbuck . As usual , our target was to arrive early , relax , and have a bite to eat while waiting for the start . So , when we got out of the car and I looked at the delightful woodlands surrounding us , I noticed that there were no facilities other than the boxes waiting to receive our drop bags . I realised this really was going to be a pretty relaxed atmosphere . The registration area began to fill as the buses arrived , while Nic and I realised that we weren 't particularly nervous . Considering this would be my first time over 40 miles , and her first time over 28 , the chilled vibe was obviously rubbing off on us . With about 15 minutes to spare , I had a short jog to make sure my shoes were well tied , took some pics , and was ready to go . The race started with a great descent to get us all up to speed and quickly took us to into the open moorland that made up the first 10 miles of the route . Good , steady descents , a few short hills to break up the rhythm a little , and before I knew it , I was sheltering behind a few runners at about 45 seconds per mile faster than my preferred early pace . With the steady headwinds , the firm footing , and the lack of any notable hills , I decided to stick with it for a while , to see how things went . After all , I 've not really been used to running for any length of trail without some enforced walking breaks , so I wasn 't really sure how I would react to 8 : 45 minute miles . Had it been a flattish road race , I would have been quite happy with the conservative speed , but for the trails , sense said I was going to have to slow down at some point . For those not familiar with the race or the route , The River Ayr Way Challenge is organised by the East Ayrshire County Council - in particular the Countryside Services team . It 's pretty low key , well supported with regular water / feed / chat stations , and runs along the length of the River Ayr Way . The rangers had to put in some extra hard work this year , recovering / re - routing some sections of the RAW where it had disappeared after this winter 's ice floes and heavy rains . In many places , they had even been out strimming in the days before the race . Compared to what I normally run on , the path felt practically manicured ! We were truly spoiled in that respect . The early stages of the route set the tone for the whole of the RAW . There are pretty views in all directions , but few " wow ! " moments . Early on , we enjoyed miles of open moors , misty light on the distant hills , and plenty of slippery little wooden bridges to test the coordination . After 11 miles , my right calf ( this month 's muscular liability ) started to tug , so I eased back a bit . I didn 't fancy running another 30 miles on a cramping leg , and hoped that putting less strain on the leg would do the trick . By the time I hit the first check - in point with Jeff and Maggie , the leg was doing OK and I was running fairly freely . I was also 15 minutes ahead of schedule after only 17 miles , and wondering how bad the payback would be . The early moorland was giving way to wooded slopes as the river carved through the low hills . Easy running was about to take a back seat . The tough patch came , a bit later than expected , at around 25 miles . We had finally had some hills - all short , all sharp , with plenty of steps to make running difficult . Climbing up and down through the riverside woods had killed the pace and my legs . My right quad and ITB started to object , colouring my language nicely with each new staircase . Alas , no train to distract from the sore legs The difficult patch carried on into the new addition for this year 's running , a diversion near Stair where the old path unfortunately has now joined with the river itself . We slogged up a short hill through a nice , soupy pasture where the " mud " had a nice oily sheen to it . Best not to think about it all , really , but I did laugh that I had finally reached some trail that was like what I 've been enjoying throughout this rather moist summer . The cattle at the top of the hill looked on bemused , and I was happy to reach them with both shoes still on my feet . A couple of miles later , though , we ran through ankle deep water for long enough to wash the shoes . I splashed along , enjoying the cold water on my feet and keeping my hands above my head so I would still be happy to eat with them later . Unfortunately , I also managed to wash some large bits of grit into the shoes , in spite of my gaiters . By this time , I was 30 miles in , a little cranky , and more than just a little confused by anything that required much thought . At the 32 - mile check point , luckily , the in - laws were waiting with some extra brain cells for me to use . I stopped for a drink and a little chat , forgetting about my gritty feet . After a minute or two , I suddenly remembered that my shoes were full of ick . So , I sat down to empty my shoes and found that the grit had helped me to mangle my socks . With toes poking through the end , I knew another 10 miles would be manageable , but possibly a bit irritating , and stared blankly at my feet . Maggie asked if I had any socks in my end - of - race bag ( in the car boot ) . It took far too long for my brain to kick into gear , but I did have a spare pair for after the run , so was able to change socks . I ditched the gaiters while I was shoeless , and suddenly felt a lot lighter without the extra layer of wet fabric . Getting up wasn 't easy . The rest while I tended my feet did me some good , but it also cooled me off . So , as I walked up the next hill , I changed into my spare t - shirt . The clouds were firmly in place , so I didn 't need to worry about getting too warm as the afternoon continued . At 34 miles , I grabbed a drink and a bag of jelly worms from my drop bag , and carried on . With only 7 miles left , I knew I would be able to get it together and finish , even though I had lost any hope of a 7 - hour time . I always carry a phone for emergencies on a long run , and feared the worst when mine rang as I left the check point - surely Nic had fallen , broken her arms and legs , and was being rushed to hospital . Clearly , rational thought was taking a nap . Thankfully , the only problem was that , as tired as I was , I was still running better than the car . Jeff was calling to let me know that my bag might make it to the line before my crew . Gradually , I gathered myself and started to push on , trying to catch one person at a time in a battle of " who can slow down the least " . The underfoot conditions eased again as we neared the finish . With firm paths , tracks , and road , I was able to get back into a consistent running rhythm , getting back to 10 - minute miles for the final few . It 's easy to get down about working so hard to run so much slower than my normal As I approached the finish , I heard someone say " there 's only about 100 yards left " and put on a " sprint " for the line . At nearly 7 : 15 , I finished 20 minutes slower than my " good day " or " plan A " time , but inside of my " plan B " - pretty good for my first foray over 40 miles . If I had only managed a few minutes faster , I would even have beaten the car back to the finish - the issues had been dealt with and our ace crew had made it just in time . After getting cleaned up and refuelling a bit , I headed back up the course to cheer Nic into the finishing straight . Luckily for her , I had about half a mile of the route in view , and could pick her out in time to position myself for a good bellow of encouragement followed by a picture . Her plan B was " don 't finish last " , and her plan A was " sub 10 : 00 " . A 9 : 05 time showed that running conservatively for the first ultra was probably a good idea , and that there 's definitely more ability there than she gave herself credit for . Much like the route itself , there were no outstanding high or low points to my race . I had expected to hit the wall , struggle to carry on , battle with my usually temperamental digestion , feel elated when I finished , etc . etc . The reality was that everything just kind of ticked along . The weather was moderate . The marshals , supporters , and passers - by were all very friendly . As the race went on , I felt mostly in control ( as much as one ever is ) , never particularly strong , nor overly weak . I got tired , cranky , cheery , chatty , and quiet , much as I do over the course of any full day . Overall , it was just a normal , nice day out on some scenic trails among like - minded runners , with the added bonus of great support - what better way to spend a Saturday ? When we signed up for the Nairn Half Marathon , the goal was to have a bash at setting some fast times after a Summer of focus on speed rather than just endurance . I looked high and low for a flattish half in August or early September , and found one just a short drive from Nic 's sister and her family - the bonus of a family get - together made the race too good to pass up . Of course , it 's a 10 - 12 hour drive to get there , so a little planning was needed to make sure we arrived in condition to run ! Luckily , Nic 's folks live about 2 / 3 the way there , so we got to stop off and enjoy even more family time on both the out and back , as well as breaking up the drive . The Nairn Half has the unique ( to my knowledge , anyway ) feature of being part of the local Highland Games . So , unlike many local races , the spectators at the finish actually outnumber the runners by quite a large margin . It also means that there 's plenty going on when you finish , so the post - race is quite enjoyable . We arrived around 11am to register and avoid getting stuck in traffic heading for the Games , and took in as much of the grass track and arena as we could . Nic particularly enjoyed hearing the sound of a lone piper playing a short distance from the park as we wandered along the seaside paths . You can take the lassie out of Scotland . . . With around 30 minutes to go , we started our gentle warm - up , as usual checking out the 1st and last mile of the course , loosening limbs , etc . The clouds that had threatened to keep things cool for this afternoon race began to blow past , leaving us in no doubt that the weather would be abnormally warm for a visit to the northern beaches ! The clouds start to drift off as we get into our warm - up . At the start , the local runners were looking up , worried that the foreign yellow disc might stay put throughout the race . I had already added five seconds per mile to both of our planned first half splits , to allow for the added warmth in this cold and dreary Summer , so was confident that we would survive without too much damage from the sun . Nic 's sister had kindly leant us some sunscreen , since it 's not normally in our Scottish travel kit . It was a good thing , too , since our shoulders hadn 't spent much time in the open lately . At 12 : 30 , I found myself in the second row , waiting for the fast runners to come and line up in front of me . Only a few did , because everyone wanted the inside line for the initial lap of the track . When the gun ( and it was actually a starter 's pistol ! ) fired and the short stretch of jostling was finished , I found myself in around 6th place on the inside of the track . By the time we left the track , I was in the more sensible and lucky 13th position , keeping a close eye on my watch to make sure I wan 't going dangerously quickly . Within a quarter mile , nearly 20 runners passed me as I maintained my pace . I was confident some would come back eventually , based on previous years ' results . This year 's field was nearly twice the normal size , so I was curious to find out how many would come back if I finished in my goal time of sub - 1 : 30 . The first two miles of the course are fairly innocuous . The goal was to keep in the region of 6 : 50 before hitting the little hill in the 3rd mile . By the end of the 2nd mile , the field in front of me was at its largest , and the combination of the warm day and early enthusiasm was already starting to take its toll . When the hill approached , the first few runners came back quite quickly . I kept a beady eye on the watch to make sure I wasn 't riding the " thrill of the hunt " to blow my own race as I steadily worked my way back towards the top 20 . At the first water stop , I encountered my first " grab - and - stop " of the day . What is it that causes otherwise sensible people to grab the first available cup of water and suddenly break into a walk , making it impossible for the next runner to access either the way forward or the next cup of water ? I 'd like to say I pushed the offending runner into a ditch rather than simply running through him and spilling his water , but he apologized and I carried to get my own drink and douse without losing too much pace . From the " top " of the hill to the half way mark is a very gentle slope , or " false flat " , which means that every now and then , you can look down the road and wonder why it feels a bit harder than it should to maintain pace . As I approached the 5 mile marker , I encountered my first " walker " - he was definitely suffering from the searing sunshine and lack of a breeze . I noted a windmill turning well in the distance and immediately realized that the lack of air movement was essentially a tail - wind - a bit of a worry on what is basically an out - and - back course . At the next water stop , I tried to let the runner in front and the 1st volunteer know I was aiming for the 2nd volunteer 's water . Too late , the runner stopped right in front of me and the volunteer kindly tried to hand me water as I was passing through . I got an extra douse , apologized my way to the 2nd volunteer , grabbed some more water for a sip and shower and again continued on my way . At around 6 . 5 miles , a kind man had placed a sprinkler over the road to help cool us off - a welcome burst of cool since my vest had dried quickly after the water stop . Then , we turned into the wind and I stopped feeling hot . At first , the breeze was refreshing - it was only just starting to really get up . This section of the course was broadly down hill , with occasional short tree - lined stretches to offer a bit of shade . I had expected a reasonable amount of wind , but it was becoming quite an obstacle . I managed to maintain my pace through to 9 miles with an effort , losing a second here and there and finding it more difficult to recover the time . The 10th and 11th miles had some small hills , but nothing particularly taxing . Unfortunately , they also had some significant sections into the stiff headwind , and I dropped 50 seconds as I struggled against it . With the final push to the line , I got back onto pace with a good downhill and some changes of direction , but the damage was done . Sub - 1 : 30 would take a superhuman effort , and even getting a PB was at risk . I needed to leave everything on the road to have any chance of a good result , and pushed as hard as I could . The race finishes with a lap of the grass track , surrounded by cheering spectators , but I honestly couldn 't hear anything . I focused on following the yellow line and the runner a few seconds ahead and speeding up for all I was worth . In the end , I was about 200 yards too slow , finishing in 1 : 30 : 38 - 55 seconds faster than my previous best set in March . Nic suffered even more in the wind , having turned into it after it had already stopped just being a breeze . She still took a minute off her previous best , and is looking forward to a slightly more favourable day to pick up a couple more minutes . The day had been scheduled for some fast times , but the conditions were not the best on the day . We found out later that the wind had even been strong enough to cause problems at the beer tent at the Games - a temporary tragedy that was dealt with by removing the tent and running the bar under the blazing sun . We enjoyed a different recovery from the usual ( the beer tent was being dismantled as we finished ) , sitting with Nic 's sister and our nieces enjoying the track races , Highland dancing , tug - o ' - war , caber tossing , and marching pipe bands . I think we both suffered a little sunburn and no little windburn , but it was an amazing way to wind down from a hard race . I guess next year we 'll just have to train a little harder ! Running is addictive . It gets under our skin . Muscles , tendons , nerves all suffer when we run . On the best days , running transforms us . On the worst days , it is our final action . Every day in between is a day when we are running , could be running , should be running , dream about running , or prepare to run again . Many runners struggle to find time for running , and yet the time is somehow found . Many runners struggle to keep running from taking over their lives , and kid themselves that they have succeeded . This Spring , I finally stopped kidding myself . Running has taken over my life . This Spring , Cotswold Running stopped just being the name of a blog , it became a dream . In June , Cotswold Running became a company . In July , we opened entries into our first races , the Broadway Tower Marathon and Half Marathon . On August 1st , Cotswold Running became my full - time occupation . The part of my day that used to be dedicated to the automotive industry is dedicated to putting together the races that I 've dreamt of running - races ranging from 10 kilometres to 100 + miles on trails and hills that always call out to me , " Come run here , you 'll leave with a grin ! " . Success is measured not just in the number of runners at the starting line , but the smiles at the finish , the number of runners coming back for more , the number of towns , villages , and landowners welcoming us back to share their landscape for a few hours . Running is addictive . It 's gotten under my skin . Let the adventure begin ! Every year I look forward to the EVRC 's local invitational fell race , the Bredon Bash . We start in picturesque Elmley Castle , run up to the top of Bredon Hill to the tower , and then come back down . It 's around 5 . 8 miles and on a sunny day can include some stunning views . Alternatively , the mist can drop in and you can hardly see your hand in front of your face . This year 's edition , as with much of the past few weeks , was conducted under heavy cloud , steady rain , and a strong wind - horrible for the volunteers , but perfect for a fell race ! With the abysmal weather and entries only taken on the day , it wasn 't much of a surprise that only 49 hardy ( foolish ? ) souls from area clubs and villages entered . Having enjoyed a stellar year so far , my main goal was to take some time off of my time from 2011 . The ankle deep water and mud in places would make that a bit more challenging , but the descent is usually more forgiving when the going is soft to swampy , so I just made sure my shoes were well secured and headed out at the front of the " chasing pack " . Once we had left the road and made our way through a field of tall wet grass ( thank goodness for triple - knots ! ) , the slippery ascent began . I 've run this route in most weather , but haven 't seen the mud so deep for a couple of years . Those in road shoes would have to pick their way gently to the top . Those with more aggressive outsoles could run , although it was best to avoid the narrow " path " that had become more of a quagmire . There are a couple of sections on the hill that I normally have to walk due to burning calves , but these were fewer and shorter than I 'd previously managed . I hit the top of the hill in 11th place , but with plenty to do to make sure I got my new course - best time . The run along the top of the hill is gently undulating , and normally not too soft underfoot . This day was no different . The mud wasn 't overly deep . It was , however , frequently covered by several inches of water . I usually try to avoid stepping into something whose depth I can 't identify , but knowing the track helped me to go through many pools without too much worry , and I never had to worry about hot feet ! I reached the turnaround point still in 11th place ( caught one , lost one ) and gutted it out back to the top of the descent . By now , visibility was incredibly poor as we ran in the low cloud . However , with the wet path , I could hear the splashing runner behind me getting closer . I hit the muddy descent at full speed , hoping to lose my pursuer as I ducked under branches and high - stepped through tree roots . I don 't like getting passed on descents , especially ones that I know well enough to race through even in these conditions . But , with half of the hill left ahead , I was chasing . Together , my erstwhile shadow ( if only there 'd been a light source ! ) and I chased down my clubmate Mark ( he 's generally quite a lot faster than me , but his shoes weren 't cooperating with the terrain ) . At the bottom of the hill , I checked back to find another runner closing fast . When we broke free of the mud and back into the grassy field , I opened my stride to put as much space behind me as I could . I 'd managed to keep that 11th place for most of the race , and was far more interested in 10th than I was in 12th ! By the time I hit the final road section , I had closed back in on the runner ahead , and could see that he had left most of his energy on the hill . With just under half a mile to go , I went for broke and put in an effort designed to overtake and also ensure I stayed ahead . The speed sessions over the past few months have been paying off , because I still felt OK , even though it turns out I was running at my 5K pace ( it 's a bit downhill ) . Once again , we made our way on Wednesday evening to Cleeve Common for the hilly " sprint " that is the Cleeve Cloud Cuckoo 5 . 5 . Given the near constant rain over the past week , the clouds kindly broke up and headed north to give us a pleasantly sunny window in which to run . The race makes a figure of eight around the top of Cleeve Hill , near Cheltenham , taking in a few short hills and a couple of longer ones along the way . With a gentle uphill first quarter to sap the legs a bit , it gives a reminder that it always pays to be fully warmed up before the start . None of the hills in the early section is particularly special , but if the lungs and calves aren 't quite ready , you 'll hear all about it . Following the gentle loosener comes a delightful 950ft descent that is shallow enough to take at speed and steep enough to challenge one 's ability to stay upright . The payback is a climb out of the quarry bottom back onto the hill over the space of a mile and a bit . The first half mile of the climb is quite steep , with a gentler finish to the high point of the race . From here , we get a mile steady descent to recover on before a short , steep scramble before the wonderful 3 / 4mi downhill finish . This year 's event was well attended , with over 120 competitors . The course was a little different to last year with an extra quarter mile in the post - quarry part of the " eight " . Nic joined in , racing this year rather than simply sightseeing , and taking more than a minute per mile off compared to 2011 . I knocked 14 seconds off on average , to finish considerably further up the field ( close enough to see the 1st lady finish , which is usually a good target for me ) . All - in - all , a great way to spend a Summer 's evening . Yesterday , I set out for a nice , easy 20 mile run . I 'd selected my route from the list of go - to routes ( i . e . no map reading , close by , minimal planning required ) and gone for a fairly flat affair . With only 2 - 3 big hills , and lots of rolling stuff , I was looking forward to a nice , steady pace for 3 - 4 hours . The fact that the weather was filthy only added to the fun - a little soft mud underfoot is always nice . Some days , however , a nice route doesn 't necessarily make for a nice run . As I ran through Snowshill , one of the most beautiful villages around , it was sad to see people setting up tables and flags for the afternoon 's Jubilee street party . Rainwater was streaming off the tables like they were forming some kind of water slide . Then , as I got to the top of my first hill , I found out just how much of an impact last week 's sunshine had made . The grass was knee - to - thigh high along the path , and very wet indeed . I was taking in so much water every time I lifted a foot that my shoes began a lovely squelchy tune . For about a mile , I was shipping more water than I could squeeze out with each step - lovely . Once I was back out of the long grass , I began to wonder if I was losing my mind - I kept hearing voices from the trees . Nothing clear , just the occasional human voice , with no other sign of life . It was windy , and the sheep were making a racket , but I was pretty sure that my brain wasn 't creating a voice from these ambient noises . Eventually , I ran along a ridge with a clear view to the other side of a valley to see some sort of large event going on - obviously something with a PA system . It was hard to see what was going on , because they were as shrouded in the low cloud as I was . So , no evidence there that I 'm losing the plot ! I happily carried on in the knowledge that I 'm not losing my marbles into a field of bullocks . Those who know me will be aware that I 'm not that keen on cattle . They 're large , a little too curious , and somewhat unpredictable . So , with reassuring words to the youngsters that I was only passing through , I carefully walked through their pasture . Normally , I get a few stares and am left alone . The boys were a bit bored , I guess , and decided to gather round . It was a little disconcerting at first , as they formed a semi - circle and closed in to within a few feet . I stopped and stood completely still , in the hopes that they would lose interest and wander off . But , no , they decided to come a bit closer - not the response I was after ! With a little gentle hand waving , they backed away enough for me to try the slow walk again . A couple kept very close quarters , but eventually they let me go . Given the potential for young males of any species to be curious , energetic , and a bit thick in the head , I wasn 't sure where the situation would go . Any tips on how best to keep bullocks at a distance are most welcome . Luckily , the next herd a few miles later was more interested in eating than they were in me . I think I 'll give that route a miss for a few weeks ! By the time I was done with the low - speed cattle driving , I was starting to get cold ( yes , in June ) . From there , the rest of the run was about keeping warm ( hat , gloves , etc . ) and keeping going . Village after village had soggy street party decorations that looked a bit like I was beginning to feel - worse for wear . After 15 miles , I decided to call it a day and give in to the dreary weather . So , I cut a couple of miles off and headed back to Snowshill by road . On the up side , my new route took me through the lavender farm . The smell of the new buds in the rain lifted my mood and I jogged happily back to the car . Funny how the vagaries of the route can so easily alter the state of a tired and unfocussed mind ! The day , once again , started oh - so - very - early . After 2011 's fun , we decided that the race is easiest to manage if someone is following the baton , with a small band of dedicated family members and club runners acting as transport for the runners . As a result , we needed to be at the start before 5 : 00 . Having made my final substitution of an injured runner the day before , I was a little twitchy when the alarm went off at 3 : 50 . By 4 : 30 , I 'd confirmed that the first 2 runners were in position and headed to the start line with super - crew - chief Nic relieved that I wouldn 't have to stand in for the first leg . My leg wasn 't until the afternoon , to give me time to re - jig runners if needed , but I was happy to avoid the need for any last - minute shuffling . When I sent in the entry form , I still didn 't have a clear picture of the team . April is marathon season , and people have a tendency to drop out with injuries and insufficient recovery . With the list of ~ 15 runners , I knew at least a few wouldn 't make it to the start - but I didn 't know which ones . Therefore , I entered the team in the earliest start time to make sure we finished well in advance of the 18 : 00 target deadline . By the time the participant list had nearly solidified ( 3 days before the race ) , it was clear that we had a chance of a podium finish . Any event that lasts for 13 hours will have its little incidents . This year 's Hilly was no different . My leg 3 runner nearly missed the baton change by parking up about half a mile down the wrong road - we recovered her just in time . The leg 4 - 5 transition point was perfectly placed to attract the attention ( and wrath ) of a local farmer who really didn 't appreciate a load of runners parking in the drive to his farm . A change in transition points confused the team captain ( me ) and resulted in a poor estimation , which had the leg 6 runner handing over to said team captain a bit behind schedule . Add to that a great run by the leg 6 runner from Kenilworth , and I had my first 1 - on - 1 race in quite a long time ( honours even - after a big effort to close the gap , he struggled to hold on in the final 5km and I regained our buffer ) . Finally , 13 hours after the start , we confirmed that EVRC had successfully defended our 2011 B - race 3rd place ( as well as defending our title as 1st mixed team ) . Amazingly , we had knocked 39 minutes off last year 's time . I think we might just start at 6am next year - I look forward to the extra sleep ! This weekend is a three - day one , due to the national holiday celebrating the first floods of the year ( or possibly May Day , if you don 't live near a river ) . To celebrate the extra recovery time available , it is customary to put on stupidly difficult races . In 2010 , I ran my first trail marathon ( Three Forts Challenge ) . In 2011 , I completed my final Endurancelife Coastal Trail Series marathon of the year at the inaugural Endurancelife Festival . I can confidently say that the latter was the more difficult course . I had planned to head back to Sussex to have another go at the Three Forts , but then I saw some of the other races available on the weekend . Plan A was Malvern Ultra due to the lack of travel required . However , once Nic was successfully putting away the training miles , we changed plans and set our sights on the Welsh Hills . For this change of plans , I blame my good friend Roy . Roy and I have been training together for a few years now . If ever I want to find a new route , I ask Roy along . We 're a similar pace , like similar trails , and are equally good at finding " scenic " options to the path we 're meant to be following . He has been singing the praises of the Red Kite & Ras y Diafol ( Devil 's Race ) for a year or two , and when Nic suggested that she get to choose a race for once , we decided to give it a shot . On paper , the weekend shouldn 't be too hard : 11 miles on Saturday , 17 miles on Sunday , ~ 5000ft of ascent combined . It should be no more difficult than this year 's CTS courses , so why not have a nice weekend running in the hills ? Day one takes place from the Red Kite visitor centre ( great viewing of these amazing birds ) , and day two is just a few miles away . Add to the fun that friends Roy , Chris , Ned , and Sheila were all running both days , and what could be more relaxing ? And then , of course , one pins on the race number and all thoughts of a relaxed and scenic run go out the window . They are replaced by thoughts like " It 's only 11 miles " and " race today and then worry about tomorrow when it comes " . Having tried to race last month 's Exmoor ultra and come slightly unstuck , I decided to listen to the speed demon on my shoulder rather than the armchair angel . Nic 's picture from the Red Kite Challenge . The Red Kite Challenge also happens to be the Welsh trail running championships , so the field is pretty handy . A couple of local international - class runners turn up to have a wee sprint while the rest of us grind it out in their wake . The race starts with a gentle run around the lake and then throws in a few modest climbs of between 100ft and 400ft , before giving us an amazing two - mile , 900ft descent . I 'm pretty sure this was the first time I had ever put two sub - 6 miles into a race ( I haven 't even done that in a 5K ! ) , and that was taking the hill with a fair amount of control to save something for the inevitable uphill . It was an amazing feeling to be moving that quickly for an extended period . Eventually , the down ended and we went straight back up out of the valley - another 800ft in a little under two miles of fast hiking with occasional runnable bits . Upon reaching the top , my climbing muscles were in rebellion , but the race was over half - way finished . The final five miles were gently undulating ( little rolling 100 - 200ft ups and downs ) , which certainly kept the heart rate high as I tried to keep from losing too many places to the more practised fell runners . A final sprint got me to the line in a reasonable time , but with not much energy left . I was even too tired to eat any of the delicious - looking fruitcake on offer at the finish . Once everyone had finished , we made for the tea shop and I joined the queue . They must have run out of tea , because eventually we gave up on the lack of progress and headed back out onto the balcony to watch the kites and wait for the award ceremony . Chris and Roy showed their experience by bringing a huge Thermos of hot water and sharing out some very warming coffee - saviours ! With prizes for the open race , Welsh race , and age groups , the prize - giving lasted for quite some time . But , I 'm glad we stayed because Nic picked up an age - group silver medal for her sterling effort ! Ned , Sheila , and Chris picked up age - group bronzes , and Roy and I won the opportunity to buy drinks in the pub later in the evening . Day two was a bit more of a relaxed affair . Only a fraction of the field come out to do the combined event , and a few people turn out just to do the longer run . The plan on Saturday morning was to just take this as a recovery run , but once again the number got pinned to the chest and sense got left in the kit bag . However , I had a pack on this time , so at least had the chance to take a few pictures on the run . The course starts fairly gently , with a short downhill and a steady uphill . We were joined by some enthusiastic horses for a short time ( somewhere just out of the picture ) . Just before mile three , we began what seemed like a fairly innocuous climb and then turned into mountain - goat territory . At this point , I started a game of hill leapfrog with Sheila that lasted nearly nine miles . She would leave me for dust on the ups and I would catch her and try to gain some margin on the downs . The challenge of the day was the two - mile , 1000ft climb up to nearly half - way . As I dragged myself up the switchbacks , Roy caught up for a brief chat and Sheila pulled well clear . I managed not to lose too many places with my relatively slow pace , but it was a huge effort to keep any pace at all . At last , the long uphill was finished . The hill finally ended with a short section through a wind farm . It was amazing to pass so close to the majestic , near - silent drone of the blades as they slowly rotated . From there , we had nearly three miles of descent broken by the occasional sharp hill during which to " recover " . I eventually caught up to Sheila again , just in time to ruin it all with yet another uphill section . From 12 . 5 miles , it 's essentially down hill to the finish . Unfortunately , I slightly missed a step and jarred my right leg on some stairs . By the time I reached 14 miles and the end of a long steep road , my right calf was objecting to the point of full cramp . I 'd been taking salt tablets to avoid cramp since I was dripping with sweat for much of the race , but obviously the calf didn 't enjoy having to take up the slack for the muscles that suffered from the earlier misstep . So , with a few stops to massage and stretch , I started to lose time properly . The silly leg did ease up enough to get back up to a reasonable jog , but not before Roy caught me . I could see the joy on his face from catching me at last , and wished him well ( something encouraging like " carry on , because I 'm going to try to catch you ! " ) . It was the kick up the backside I needed to get back into a proper run . It didn 't feel great , but it also didn 't feel like getting worse . Although I struggled any time the ground was particularly rough , I could focus on chasing Roy . I started to see more runners that I 'd long - since passed lining up in the distance behind me , and that gave me even more encouragement to " man - up " and move faster . That , for me , is one of the key differences between racing a run and just running it for the experience . When I 'm racing , finishing position matters . When I 'm running just against myself and the course , then the watch and the view are the arbiters of success . I knew as we came into the last mile that I couldn 't catch Roy ( I 'm sure he 'd have died before letting go of the few hundred metres margin he built up ) . But I also knew that I could keep the line of runners where they were - behind me . As the line approached , I was 2nd in a loose group of three . The runner behind me sprinted for the line with an energy that I certainly did not possess . When the man in front didn 't respond to his charge , I decided to give it a go and slowly ramped up into an ugly sprint . This time , he responded - obviously he saw the state of me and decided he just couldn 't lose to such a wreck . We shouted each other to the finish in an epic battle against our rebellious legs . It 's all fun and games at the end of a great run . ( courtesy of Alastair Tye ) The double - race weekend was tough , but was also a lot of fun . It 's great to share the race experience with friends , and two - day events double the pleasure . Chris and Sheila picked up awards for the Ras y Diafol , and all three ladies won their age categories for the combined events . I won a very fine bar of chocolate for completing both events , which was rather welcome on Monday afternoon when the munchies hit . There are , as I said , a lot of great events on the May Day holiday weekend . I think the others may take a back seat for a few years , because I have already pencilled a return to Wales for next year ! I 've been running on and off since my first 1 mile fun - " run " in 1976 - I was 3 at the time . Now , I spend as much time enjoying the trails as much as I do running on the road . I organize trail races in the UK and coach at my local running club and online . I enjoy running in the mud . Frequently , I even enjoy running through standing water - especially if my feet are a bit tired or sore . As a . . .

I have this weird fascination with church marquees - those interchangeable signs strategically placed in front of church buildings . In one sense I 'm attracted to them , the same way that I can 't look away from the car wreck on the other side of the interstate as I drive by . Like a moth to the flame , I 'm helpless to their lure . On the other hand , I find myself doing a lot of face - palming , either figuratively or literally . And not only because some of them - and you know the ones I 'm talking about - express a theology and biblical understanding that has little or nothing to do with the God I know . It 's also , in my opinion , the worst kind of advertising . Because that 's what these marquees are , functionally if not intentionally - advertising . A form of outreach and evangelism . I mean , they 're right there outside the church 's main entrance , in some cases larger than the sign with the church 's name on it . Every so often the message changes , thus catching our attention . Everything about them practically screams , " Look at me ! This is who we are ! " And like it or not , they tell a story about what kind of church lies on the other side . And I don 't get it , honestly , what possesses some churches to tell the stories they do . Maybe they 're not intended for public consumption and are meant more for the people inside - in which case perhaps that 's where the signs should be . That 's they only way I can make sense of it . I mean , who is going to drive past a church with a marquee that essentially tells them they 're going to hell and think , Hey , sounds like the place for me ! Like the saying goes : " First impressions are lasting impressions . And frankly , I 'm rarely impressed . My church doesn 't have a marquee - a blessing , as I see it . Every now and then , though , I daydream about what it might say if we did . What kind of " advertising , " what kind of story would it share ? To that end , I 've created a few of my own , void of cheesy wordplays and ghastly theology . You can do the same , by the way , HERE if you want . Knock yourselves out . Feel free to add your own marquee slogan in the comments below ! I was catching a cup of coffee after a presbytery meeting at my favorite coffee house in Winston - Salem , Krankies . I had my computer with me and was going to work on a sermon , because that 's what I 'm always doing , and because I tend to do my best sermonizing when coffee is involved . Anyway , I grabbed my cup of Kenyan and sat down at a table in the corner , and when I looked up at the wall next to me this is what I saw : It 's called an " Imagination Installation , " a local movement of sorts in the area ; and per its website it 's about " harnessing the collective power of our community 's dreams . " Which , in case you 're wondering , is awesome . So was this wall - dozens of small lime green signs tacked and taped all over the place , each with the simple title " Imagine When . . . . " at the top , and lots of space underneath for folks to write whatever . . . . nutritiuous local food is abundantly available everywhere and is preferred . . . elected officials work for the good of the people , not for the power of the office . . . human beings realize we are stewards of this earth , and no more important than any other living being . . . we are not strangers . . . there is a woman in the White House ! . . . we recognize that " the kingdom of God is here " ( no waiting required ) . . very child can squish mud between his or her toes in a creek . . we dream together to empower each other , rather than live in isolation . . . we grow food rather than lawns , and share that food with our community . . we all Iive in the moments like our dogs , cats and horses do . . . . our economic system rewards cooperation , collaboration and generosity over competition . . . we all realize we are happier the more we give and love others , rather than how much we get and are loved . . . . public art is on every corner in downtown Winston - Salem . . . we know that life comes from death . . . color is a hue that a painter uses to transform the canvas : - ) . . . the health care system is healed . . all pets have an owner that is loving and caring and a comfortable place to be . . . corporations figure out that creativity and innovation comes from liberated , encouraged and respected employees . . . children and adults go outside and play every day . . . education rewards innovation and creativity more than compliance . . . every child comes home at the end of school to a loving family member and a plate of cookies and milk . . . each of us life our lives with respect and honor of all living beings . . . we all remember that we 're one big family . . . people have the courage to be themselves . . . we all let our authentic selves shine ! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Of course , I got in on the act . Here 's the one I did . If you know me , this should come as no surprise : You know what I liked most about this excellent use of coffee house wall space ? It 's " Imagine When , " not " Imagine If . " It 's only a matter of time , folks . Let 's get busy . Here 's the first thing you need to know about the Wild Goose Festival : it 's hot . As in temperature - hot . This is to be expected when you host an event in the heart of North Carolina at the end of June . It 's going to be steamy . Here 's the second thing you need to know about the Wild Goose festival : it 's a Christian festival , but not that kind of Christian festival . Taking its name from a Celtic symbol for unpredictability , beauty and grace , the Wild Goose Festival describes itself on its website as " a community creating a festival at the intersection of justice , spirituality and art . " Think Woodstock for Christian hippies without the drug use and with clothing . And here 's the third thing you need to know about the Wild Goose Festival , as stated by one of the organizer in their welcome Thursday ( and I 'm paraphrasing here ) : " If you are here because you know the truth and you want to make sure everyone else knows the same truth you do , then we want to encourage you to use this festival as your own personal retreat of solitude and silence . " This was met , incidentally , with wild applause . At the Wild Goose Festval , you learn quickly that personal agendas and soapboxes are left at the Shakori Hills entrance , and open dialogue and mutual respect and love take their place . I had heard about the Wild Goose Festival from some family friends who went last year and absolutely loved it . A few months ago I was asked to play music for one of the noon " Sacred Space " worship services at the festival , and the family decided to tag along . We camped out one night and enjoyed a solid 24 + hours of the Wild Goose experience - more than enough to whet our appetite for next year . So , what goes on at the Wild Goose ? A number of things . Great music , everywhere , all the time . On stage ( David Lamotte and Derek Webb were two that I saw ) and all around Shakori Hills under the shade of trees , people jamming away . Wonderful speakers ; folks whose books I 'd been reading for years . Brian McLaren , Phyllis Tickle , Shane Claiborne , Jim Wallis - just to name a very few . Booths all over the grounds for everything from seminaries and colleges and book publishers to the group against torture , the organization promoting clean water ( very appropriate given our state 's current flirtation with fracking ) , racial equality , world missions - you pretty much name it , it was there . All while camping with the family under the shade of a cluster of trees , and with some former Mount Airy friends we hadn 't hung out with in years . The cool thing about the Wild Goose Festival is that everyone just kind of hangs out with each other , including the speakers and musicians . There are no walls separating the " names " from the masses , and that 's exactly the point . So it was nothing to see Brian McLaren " emerge " from his tent just a few campspots away from yours , or Phyllis Tickle chatting it up over a cup of cool lemonade with a young couple holding their two - year old daughter , or Derek Webb discussing favorite bands with the guy at the seminary booth . It 's what community should be about . You never know what might happen when you throw a bunch of free - thinking spiritual types together in a confined space for five scorching days ( did I mention it was hot ? ) , but everyone behaved and was kind and courteous . Just in the small taste my family and I got of it , there was an air of excitement and engagement over what God was doing there - a sense that Christianity does not have to be so narrowly defined by a certain segment of society that wants to describe it in negative terms and make it about a single set of issues . I think that 's what attracted me to it the most - a freedom to embrace a more comprehensive and complete view of the faith . It 's the kind of Christianity I wish others could see more often . Here 's a few pictures I took of the event , just to give you a taste of what my family 's experience was like . The video that follows will cast the net a little wider . You should make plans to go next year . I 'm pretty sure we 'll be there again . Yep - as of today , I 've completed the 21 - day vegan detox diet that 's all the rage . No meat , dairy or eggs for three weeks . It 's been a bit of a change , but nothing terribly bad . In fact , I 've rather enjoyed it . Some random reflections on the journey in no particular order : I lost a lot of weight , somewhere in the 10 - 12 pound range . This was the main reason I did the diet . The trick , of course , is keeping it off . We 'll see how long that lasts . But for now , I 'm pleased . I didn 't miss meat as much as I thought I would . I 'm not a huge steak - eater and hamburgers make rare appearances in my diet . The meat I 'm more inclined to eat is when it 's part of something else - turkey in a sandwich , chicken in my wife 's awesome chicken pie , ground beef in a bowl of chili . I thought I 'd miss this kind of meat moreso , but other than the occasional craving for a slice of pepperoni pizza it hasn 't been that bad . Probably the hardest thing to give up was dairy . I 've always been a big milk - drinker - some in my cereal in the morning , a glass or two with dinner at night . It 's a pretty significant part of my diet . Problem is , the milk we buy at the grocery store has all kinds of hormones that were given to the cows that produced it ; and those hormones wind up in our body . Soy milk and almond milk are acquired tastes , but after a while you get used to it . I thought a lot more about the foods I put in my body . And I guess in a sense that 's part of what the diet is about . You can 't just grab whatever 's in the fridge or whatever you 've got in the pantry . You 're constantly asking yourself : Does this have eggs in it ? Does it have milk ? This wasn 't a bad exercise to engage in outside the diet itself . How many of us eat whatever 's right in front of us without thinking about where it came from , what 's in it , etc ? I ate less . Kind of a natural byproduct of the previous one . Besides , if your fridge is like ours , you have multiple kinds of sandwich meat and cheese but not a lot of beans and greens . Side effects of the diet - your body has to go through an adjustment period as it transitions to the vegan diet . For me , it hit around Day Three or Four . I felt a little tipsy that was something between slight fatigue and a weird high of sorts . I had this odd metal taste in my mouth , probably a little iron deficiency going on . Once I hit Day Five , though , it was all good . I found my energy level was much better . As with everything , there 's an app for that . Although I didn 't use it much , since it called for some recipies that were either a bit extravagant for my tastes , or unreasonable for one reason or another . But it 's still worth checking out . And when you do , you 'll learn that . . . . Cous cous and black beans rock . They 're in just about everything in the diet , and that 's perfectly fine with me . Others that found their way into my diet over the past 21 days - peanut butter , good ol ' fruit , carrot sticks , soy milk . Oh , and give the green smoothie a try . Sounds gross , but it 's actually pretty tasty . It 's a bit of a challenge when your family isn 't doing the diet with you , but it 's not impossible . Basically I made my own meals beside the rest of my family for three weeks . The only time this was hard was when the wife and kids had her most excellent homemade chicken pie . That was a tough one to sit out . And going out to eat had its challenges , especially in my locale where " family cooking " is most prevalent and certainly not very vegan . In the end , though , everything worked out fine . So - where to go from here ? More than likely I 'll retain some elements of the vegan diet but not so hard - core . I 'll probably throw fish back into the mix and eat beef and chicken very sporadically . I 'll eat some eggs but do my best to make sure they 're free - range and organic . As far as milk - this is the one thing I think I 'm going to give up altogether . Soy and Almond milks are not a bad substitute , and void of any nasty hormones . Big deal for me , as I 've been a " milk boy " for most of my life . Hopefully this modification will continue helping to keep the weight off ! I 've said it before - I love airports . There 's something about the random humanity that fascinates me . I 'm in an airport as I write this - Chicago O ' Hare , to be exact - at some concourse restaurant grabbing a hot dog . Aptly titled " the Chicago . " I like the way my waiter pronounced it when he brought it to me - " CHI - cago , " not " SHI - cago " like us non - residents are prone to say . I gladly stand corrected . I 've spent the past week in the Windy City at McCormick Theological Seminary . You know those people who have elaborate plans to tour all major league ballparks ? A few years back I decided to do the same thing with Presbyterian Church ( USA ) seminaries . I know , not as exciting ; but as I 'm proving at this very moment , you can still get a hot dog . Anyway , there are nine or ten of them , depending on how many you count in the mix ; and including the three I attended for formal schooling I 've been to six : Union ( Richmond , VA ) , Columbia ( Decatur / Atlanta ) , Pittsburgh , Louisville , Austin and now McCormick in Chicago . I 'm always amazed by the diversity of the schools and the people associated with them , but also all the things they share in common . Every school in their own unique way is making a difference . I usually try to attend some specific event , like a conference , but if that 's not available I 'll spend a few days just studying and reading . The latter was my intention when , back in the summer , I pulled up McCormick 's web site . And then my eyes caught a little blurb about their brand new Certification in Environmental Ministries and Leadership . Anyone who knows me can certainly understand my immediate interest . I was getting spousal permission and plane tickets within days . The program is spearheaded by four faculty and involved ten participants from all over the country and beyond ( a gentleman from north of the border joined us ) . We met for three days , two of which were seminar - style discussions and one " field trip " day to a local conservation . Lots of incredible conversation and insight . In many ways its getting back to some of the core Biblical and theological emphases on " creation - care " that we seem to have lost in recent years - captured quite eloquently in a comment I remember someone making in our local curbside recycling brouhaha last spring : that " God loves people , not the earth " ( there 's this little thing called John 3 : 16 you ought to check out . . . ) It 's helping me fine - tune my perspectives and passions on the issue so I can do my part to help the faithful reclaim an important conversation that 's been sorely neglected . Anyway , this was part one of two trips - we 'll be back in early 2012 , after which we 'll have a project to complete . And as much as I enjoyed the program itself , I also fell in love with Chicago . The seminary is located in Hyde Park , on the south side of town . I came to love the neighborhoods and my daily walks through the University of Chicago campus to some friends who graciously opened up their guest room for me . It was also cool to reconnect with some old Mount Airy peeps ( and a former Mediocre Bad Guy band member ) who moved up here a year or so ago . Hyde Park is a fantastic place , bustling with activity amidst old - school buildings and homes , ornate trees , and two - yes , TWO - organic coffee shops . Take that , Starbucks . Lots to think about as I board my flight home in an hour - including my strategy on how to get to my parked car as quickly as possible so I can to book it home in time to make a Mediocre Bad Guys gig . Enjoy the pics that follow , and pay special note to the incredible rainbow that greeted me this morning as I prepared to depart . I 'll take it as a sign that this week was time well spent . Home of a certain famous Chicago residence who currently resides at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW , Washington DC . About two blocks from the seminary . Pleasantly waved to the Secret Service guy parked across the street before snapping this pic . Went on a jog one morning and headed six blocks east to Lake Michican . Got there in time to see the sunrise . Add this to my collection of awesome sunrise running pics . So I was walking to my last class Saturday morning with suitcase in tow right in the middle of a rainshower . Kind of a pain , until the sun came out and I stopped at 55th Street to see this . If it 's not a sign of the promise , at the very least it 's a Starbucks PR dream . It goes without saying ( but I 'll say it anyway ) that we are most grateful that the car was spared . If it looks like the tree fell just to the side of the car , that 's exactly what it did . There was literally no space between the tree and the side of the bumper . The car did get nicked up a bit , but nothing any more serious than someone opening another car door into its side . This " branch " that fell is part of a huge Bradford Pear in our yard ( the rest of which will be coming down soon , I can assure you ) , and with its size and dense heavy wood it easily weighs over a thousand pounds . Six inches more to the right and it would 've crushed our little hybrid . That 's the story this picture tells . But what I 'm even more grateful for is the story this picture doesn 't tell . About 15 - 20 minutes before this happened , my eldest son and I were heading out the door to take our dog for a walk . Our youngest asked me to move the car so he could play basketball . In a moment of lazy parenting I said no , for no other reason than the keys were upstairs in my bedroom and I didn 't want to go get them . I asked him to join us instead , not sure if he would . Somewhat surprisingly , he did . We were getting ready to turn the bend in the road to come home when we heard the horrible " cracking " sound . I knew it was either a tree in the woods across from us or one in our yard . Turned out to be the latter . As I ran up and surveyed the scene , it didn 't take long for me to realize that , had I moved the car as my son requested to shoot baskets , he would 've been right underneath it when it fell . We 're bummed about the basketball goal , but honestly , it needed to be replaced anyway . And we 're thankful that the car got out of all of this relatively scot - free . But we 're obviously most thankful that my son was walking with me and not shooting baskets . Perhaps I should try to be a lazy parent more often . This evening my family and I attended a public hearing held by our city commissioners . The topic : curbside recycling . Our wonderful little town of " Mayberry " doesn 't have it , and after years of egging our community leaders on , they finally scheduled this forum . Strange as it is to say , this has been a contentious issue in our community , as there are some who are vehemently opposed to the idea for a number of reasons . Cost is one of them ( and a reasonable one , I confess ) ; but a significant group who view such an initiative as " government intrusion " and even those who see curbside recycling as a not - so - veiled form of socialism ( as I highlighted in this previous blog post ) . The forum lasted just under two hours . Those who spoke were overwhelmingly in favor of curbside recycling . I didn 't keep track , but I would guess that for every one person opposed , four or five were in favor . A lot of the vitriol that had surfaced over the past few weeks in the social media world over this topic was nonexistent . Both my wife and 8 - year old son spoke , as did I . In my comments I approached things from both a pastoral / spiritual angle , as well as a city resident and taxpayer . Below is what I said . My friends - tonight I come in two capacities to express my support for curbside recycling - as a pastor and a resident of this wonderful town . As pastor , I come not representing the church I serve , but representing many people of many faiths who understand that the call to take care of God 's earth comes first and foremost from this - the scriptures . In the book of Genesis , which serves as the foundation for some 2 . 2 billion Christians and Jews worldwide , the scripture says this : Then God said , ' Let us make humankind in our image , according to our likeness ; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea , and over the birds of the air , and over the cattle , and over all the wild animals of the earth , and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth , and over the earth itself . Sadly , over the years that word " dominion " has been misconstrued to mean " do with the world as you wish . " When in fact , the Hebrew here actually describes a scenario where a servant is entrusted with the care of their master 's possessions . So the world does not belong to us - it belongs to God . Like the Psalmist says in Psalm 24 : 1 : The earth is the Lord 's and all that is in it . People of faith all over the world understand God 's mandate to care for creation - including many here in our community , represented in these signed petitions , stating that curbside recycling is not only a civic calling but a spiritual one as well . I submit these to you for public record on their behalf . The second capacity in which I come tonight is as a citizen of this town - a citizen who recognizes that waste disposal comes at a cost to the taxpayer , no matter how we go about doing it . We can either continue purchasing additional land for the landfill - land which will eventually fill up and cause us to purchase more land - or we can enact a curbside recycling program that , in the long run , will cost the taxpayer less . If we are going to talk about cost in this discussion , as some people are so eager to do , then let us be open and honest about all costs involved . It 's become apparent that , if curbside recycling is going to happen in Mount Airy , it 's going to require some " forward - thinking " on behalf of you , our city commissioners . Which is why I 'm grateful that this is something you all have demonstrated in the past . Five or six years ago , you will recall , Reeves Community Center was in danger of shutting its doors . It would 've been easy for you , our elected officials , to have said , " We can 't afford to get involved . " Instead , you wisely recognized that you couldn 't afford NOT to . So you chose to take over Reeves and keep that vital community resource intact . And , you know , it strikes me that the city didn 't have to hold a public forum back then to discuss this , even though it came at an additional cost to the taxpayer . So why is this issue so much more contentious ? The real reason , I would submit , is not about money . The real reason is about doing something new and different ; something we 've never had before . It 's about change . And as creatures of habit , we humans are not very fond of change . But sometimes doing the right thing , doing the smart and sensible thing , doing the economically viable thing , requires that we do something we 've never done before . On a personal note : I 've had the honor of getting to know each of you on a number of levels . I 've served with you in Rotary and in ministry . I 've shared the stage with you for shows you were running sound for . I 've coached your child * * * * * * * * * * * * * * I welcome all comments and thoughts , both those who agree with me and those who don 't . Here 's the deal - this is my blog , so I reserve the right to delete comments that do one of two things : 1 ) engage in namecalling , belittling , excessive vitriol or other such nonsense , and / or 2 ) do not contribute to the dialogue in a meaningful way . If you don 't feel you can abide by either of these stipulations , you probably don 't need to comment ( or just don 't get all bent out of shape when I delete it ) . If you can abide by it , please , comment away . Where to start ? Obviously the guy is entitled to his opinion , although it certainly is based on hearsay and lines drawn with the most random of connections . Without diving into a full - on political debate , I simply cannot understand how someone could equate " socialism " with " sustainable living " so completely . Nevertheless , he is entitled to his opinion . My concern lies with those who make the agenda for our city commissioners and those who report for our newspapers . I am friends with a number of city commissioners and individuals at the local newspaper , so I do not say these things lightly . But how this individual got on the docket of our city commissioner 's meeting is troubling to me . Obviously , armed with powerpoints and a formal presentation , this was not something out of the open public forum . This gentleman was invited to speak . Fine . But if you 're going to extend him an invitation , you must invite someone from the other side of the argument . And there are plenty of people in our community who would be more than willing and qualified to do that . Such as Joe Gardener , a nationally - renowned expert in sustainable gardening and living who lives a mile and a half from the city building where the commissioners meet . He 's an intelligent guy , a good Presbyterian , and he kicks butt on the Stairmaster at the community center . Someone majorly dropped the ball by not making arrangements for a counterpoint voice to be heard . But that 's not all . I understand that the reporter 's job is to report what happens , and the city commissioners did not give the newspaper a counterpoint to report on . And I know the print dealine looms large every day and a story must be turned in for publication . Still , I can 't understand why the reporter did not take a few extra minutes to pick up the phone and call any number of people to provide another perspective to balance the article . Reporting is about sharing what happened , but it is also about striving to present a full picture , especially when the facts presented here are so skewed and one - sided . I am not a fan of socialism . I am a fan of sustainable living . And I cannot see how one could possibly lead to another , unless you succumb to a radical perspective based on something other than just the facts . Which is why I fear there is more going on here than meets the eye . I 've said this before and apparently it bears repeating : when we live by our fears and not by our hopes , when we use scare tactics to get our way rather than presenting a complete picture and the facts at hand , we only hurt ourselves . And that 's not something this small town - or any town - ever needs . If you haven 't heard the news about the Sun Chips bags , that may be because you haven 't heard much of anything since you last opened one . They were , of course , the biodegradable packaging brainchild of snack - maker Frito - Lay . The deal was that the whole bag was compostable - meaning it was made out of plant material that would break down over a few months . This is in contrast to other snack food bags , and all plastic bags in general , that are petroleum - based and take anywhere from 500 - 1000 years to degrade , so the scientists tell us . Now let 's shoot straight here - ultimately this was nothing more than a sales gimmick . It worked on my family . I mean , we 've always liked Sun Chips , but we bought more of them when they made the bag change . The fact that they restricted the use of this bag to the Sun Chips product - the supposedly more natural / healthy option in their snack food arsenal ( yes , you may snicker here ) - seemed to prove this point . And make no mistake - they certainly were . Freakishly noisy . I mean , plastic snack bags will never be described as " quiet . " They have to be made out of a crisper plastic to keep moisture out , lest your Cheetos or chips become soggy , which would be a travesty . But these bags - my gosh , you could tell when your neighbor across the street was taking them out of their pantry . No snack - sneaking here , folks ! One study showed that they elicited 100 decibels of bag - crinkling noise , compared to the sound of a lawnmower ( 90 ) and a New York subway ( 94 ) . Facebook groups popped up , like : Sorry But I Can 't Hear You Over This Sun Chips Bag and The 100 % Compostable Sun Chips Bag Is 110 % Annoying ( the latter demonstrating that creating a Facebook group doesn 't mean you have to be good at math ) . So yes , they were noisy . Loud . Obnoxiously so . I have this image in my head that I can 't shake . It 's America fifty years from now . That 's when many studies suggest that all our landfills - those big holes in the ground we never see where all our trash goes - will be completely full . As in , there is no room for the 4 + pounds of garbage produced by every American every day ( not counting commercial and industrial waste , mind you ) . Which means we will have resorted to burning it , dumping it on some third - world country , burying it deep in the ocean , or even launching it into space - all of which will wreak even more havoc on our environment . I 'm trying to imagine what they ( read : our grandkids ) will think when they learn that we nixed a compostable snack food bag simply because it was too noisy . Don 't you think that 's going to come across as more than a bit petty ? At some point we North American consumers are going to have to accept the fact that things must change ; the first being our habits and our attitude . I 'm not saying that the fate of the world rests in the balance of an obnoxiously loud Sun Chips bag . I 'm simply saying it might be a good thing to look at the big picture for a change , despite what our ears may tell us . When the iPad came out earlier this year , honestly , I thought the whole thing was kind of silly . I was already halfway geeked - out with a MacBook and iPod and had my eyes set on the future release of the iPhone 4 . I really didn 't see the need for another Mac device , especially one that , at first glance , appeared to be nothing more than an oversized iPhone . The only reason I thought I 'd ever actually get Steve Jobs ' latest gadget was to preach from it . If I could read off it and scroll with the tip of my finger , well , that actually might be worth something . But that was just a crazy thought . It wasn 't like it was going to dramatically change my preaching . No real need for it . So it really should come as no surprise that I now own an iPad and am preaching with it . And yes , I 'll confess straight - up - ultimately this is about having a gadget to play with . I will admit to my tech - geekdom . Although it does save paper - I typically read off 7 - 9 pages a Sunday , and that adds up to a few trees every year , right ? It 's the pastor going green ! And playing with another gadget . I 've been at it three weeks now and it 's going well . I 'm viewing the sermon as a pdf file in iBooks . Positioning the iPad upright , I simply " flick " through the " pages " with a sideways swipe . I have to save the document at a rather large 20 pt . , but this does the trick . Of all the ways I 've tried to view my sermon this is more like using actual paper , without the paper . Is there a little anxiety about relying on a battery - powered instrument ? Sure . The first two weeks I printed out a hard copy work in the process . Response from the congregation , in case you 're wondering , has been fine . No one 's walked out in protest . If anything , those who 've noticed have asked questions and seemed genuinely intrigued . Although one family was caught off - guard - apparently they paid attention to how many pages I turned and could tell when the sermon was wrapping up . Now the finger swipes , more plentiful , were throwing them off . I like keeping folks on their toes . ; - ) My plans are to make it more than just something I preach off of , turning it into a portable sermon study resource . I 've loaded it with lots of tools - the entire NRSV and Message translations , in which you can do some amazing searches and comparisons . I 've installed apps for Hebrew and Greek and the Confessions , as well as weblinks to a number of sermon resources I use . In iBooks and the Amazon Kindle app I 've downloaded some commentaries ( although it 's currently slim pickings in the ebook world ) and a few great reads by the likes of Brian McLaren , Marcus Borg , Frederick Buechner , and Anne Lamott . And perhaps just as notable is what I don 't have on it - no Facebook or Twitter on the iPad . Seriously . I 'm keeping it pure ! Like I said , this isn 't going to transform my behind - the - pulpit experience . I don 't know that preaching with an iPad will necessarily make my sermons any better . But if today 's technology can be put to use in the church , why not ? Plus , it gave me a reason to create a Facebook page on the topic , which you should join right now . Sep 13 , 2010 6 : 05 : 06 AM

I 'm at work this morning . A quiet break between copy sent out and approvals received . A bit of ' Christmas cheer ' in the morning coffee ( Starbucks - treated myself ) from a co - worker makes the morning hum along . Light snowfall , blowing winds sweeping it along the highway on the drive in this morning . Nothing like the poor beggars on the coast are expected to get walloped with . Bryan and Phyllis are getting ready for arrivals throughout the day . I 'm going to take a break from the blog for a few days . Will be occupied with family and friends ( as I hope you are ) and then travelling up north . The laptop will be left behind . Don 't want to look at a computer for at least three days . . . . ha . Merry Christmas and blessings for the new year ! The Huron Carol ( ' Twas In The Moon of Winter Time ) ' Twas in the moon of wintertime when all the birds had fledThat mighty Gitchi Manitou sent angel choirs instead ; Before their light the stars grew dim and wondering hunters heard the hymn , Jesus your King is born , Jesus is born , in excelsis gloria . Within a lodge of broken bark the tender babe was found ; A ragged robe of rabbit skin enwrapped his beauty roundBut as the hunter braves drew nigh the angel song rang loud and highJesus your King is born , Jesus is born , in excelsis gloria . The earliest moon of wintertime is not so round and fairAs was the ring of glory on the helpless infant there . The chiefs from far before him knelt with gifts of fox and beaver pelt . Jesus your King is born , Jesus is born , in excelsis gloria . O children of the forest free , O seed of ManitouThe holy Child of earth and heaven is born today for you . Come kneel before the radiant boy who brings you beauty peace and joy . Jesus your King is born , Jesus is born , in excelsis gloria . Words : Jean de Brebeuf , ca . 1643 ; trans by Jesse Edgar Middleton , 1926Music : French Canadian melody ( tune name : Jesous Ahatonhia ) Always tricky to take pictures of a Christmas tree - the camera flash washes out the lights and such . Phyl took this one ; I 'm putting hooks to ornaments , Bryan 's mugging it for his sister . I know it isn 't Christmas Eve but it 's close enough . There won 't be enough time tomorrow to decorate the tree . I 'm at work until 1pm ( hopefully no later ) and the rest of the family arrive throughout the day . Phyllis got here late this afternoon , so it seemed appropriate to get ' er done . It 's been a bit busy at work , for Wesley and I anyway . He has two real estate publications that need to be sent to the press tomorrow noon , and he is also covering another desk for holiday absence . I got all my stuff done and then started on his . The usual silliness - client that wants a total rebuild on a two - page layout , endless revisions for another . . . . worked 8 - 6 Monday , 6 : 30 - 5 : 30 today . I 'm a bit weary . Tomorrow we 'll get it all wrapped up and it 'll be fine . Just having a cup of tea with the siblings , wind down and get a good night 's sleep . I 'm waiting for my bread to finish ( in the bread machine - don 't have time to pound down a batch of bread with this crazy work schedule ) and they need to sober up a bit so the snoring won 't be so loud ! Miss Ava Cat , Phyllis 's 15 year old tabby , is making the rounds , getting re - acquainted with the house and looking askance at the humans : " Shouldn 't you be in bed ? ! " Yes , Ava , we should . This afternoon Bryan and I went Christmas tree hunting . We found the perfect tree ( they 're all perfect - well , perhaps the balsam fir he dragged down the highway last year , giving it an ' interesting ' appearance , wasn 't quite so perfect ) alongside Joyce Lake on the Chase - Falkland Highway . It 's standing up in the garage to thaw and drip , and the whole room is filled with the rich aroma of fir sap . The shortest day of the year . The day , 23 years ago , that Bryan and I brought our newborn son home . The day , today , that he and Krista are bringing home their newborn daughter . Full circle . Twenty - three years ago , Bryan and I were homesteading in New Fish Creek , 45 km from town , in an unfinished log house with electricity but no plumbing , a wood stove for heat and two mules , two dogs and one prolific momma cat for company . No biological family closer than 600 km away , but an extended ' adopted ' family to help us . It was also a clear cold day , and on the way home we stopped to cut a Christmas tree - spruce trees up in the Boreal forest . The log house was open to the centre beam in the front half of the house , 18 feet from floor to post . Bryan could never resist getting a tree right to that beam . He found the perfect one for that year along the trail to the grazing reserve at the end of Alderidge Road . I wasn 't much help getting it into the house . We used ( and still do ) a 5 gal . pail filled with sand & / or pea gravel to hold up and water these enormous trees . We managed to get the tree up and left it to thaw before decorating it the next day . Besides , I was still very sore and tired ! I couldn 't get up the stairs to the loft where our bedroom was , so baby Marlon and I nestled into the guest bed downstairs . I 'd finally fallen asleep and had been out for awhile when Bryan came thundering down the stairs . " Are you ok ? " he urgently whispered . " Yah . Why wouldn 't I be ? " was my drowsy response . " We just had another tremor , " was the reply . It was the third earthquake to hit Alaska that year , and our house was apparently on a fault line right tPosted by What an exciting day this has been ! Bryan and I are brand new grandparents . Which means our son Marlon and partner Krista are new parents . Miss Abigail Rose Giesbrecht arrived at 12 : 19 pm in the QEII Hospital , Grande Prairie . 12 : 19 on 19 / 12 / 2008 . Wild , eh ? And today is Marlon 's 23rd birthday . Quite a gift . I 'm sorry - no photos yet . He phoned us at just past 8am our time ( 9am there ) to say she 'd gone into labour at around 2am . Things were going ok but the doctor decided to give her an epidural . I was thinking they were in for a long day . Not so . Three hours later he called again to say she 'd safely delivered of a wee girl who was alert and wide awake , getting acquainted with her mom and dad . I can hardly wait to meet her , but we need to give them time . Marlon and Krista need to bond with her and get settled before company descends . I 'm thinking ( hoping ) Auntie Becca and Uncle Chad can get over there before too long - Valleyview 's not so far away . Bryan made an executive decision : we are heading up to GP on the 27th , after Christmas here with some of his family , Boxing Day with his sister Dianna and family in Kamloops . Of course travel plans are dependent on weather . It 's been absolutely nasty the past week and bitterly cold tonight . Wind is the worse foe , of course . We 'll see . Grocery shopping for company is mostly done . Gifts are all purchased and wrapped . ' Bout as ready as I 'm going to get I guess . Learned today that an unexpected guest is coming , brother - in - law James from Saskatchewan , so we will be 9 for dinner . A nice size group . If David comes from Calgary ( long shot ) we will be 10 and that would be even better . Even teams for crokinole and Scrabble - be aware that those are blood sports in our house ! Likewise canasta gets fairly intense . Never let it be said that this is not a competitive family . Tomorrow we 're off up the mountain to find a tree . If it 's too cold , we 'll just cut one from Kelly 's lot next door ( kidding - she might read this before then ! ) . Promised sister - in - law Phyllis we wouldn 't decorate the trePosted by Something didn 't agree with me last night . The time that should have been spent in blissful repose was instead a series of sprints to the toilet . When the alarm clock rang at 5 : 45am , I 'd just managed to get perhaps an hour of sleep . At 7am , I called Deb at the office and said that perhaps I 'd best stay home . My tummy was still fluttery , my brain dulled by lack of sleep , and quite frankly I was afraid of what might happen if I should so much as sneeze ! With all the other bugs circulating that particular fishbowl , they didn 't need whatever has laid me low . It 's a dull overcast day . A new layer of snow fell during the night , but there 's not a breath of wind . The temperature 's come up a bit , I think it 's in the - 15C range . Soup is on the menu . I roasted one of the pumpkins I bought for Hallowe ' en ; carmelized a batch of finely chopped onion , garlic and red pepper to make the stock ; scrapped the pumpkin flesh into the stock and have it simmering on the stove . Comfort food that hopefully will be kind to my GI tract . Curled our last game before Christmas in mixed league last night . I wasn 't looking forward to two hours on the ice with the temperatures being so cold outside , but it was more comfortable there than had been in the office all day . Played most of the game in shirt sleeves , and found the ice to be wet by the 5th end - at least that 's my excuse for my shoddy play ( funny , didn 't affect the opposition skip 's shots . Hmm ) . Yes , we got whipped but still had fun . Natural ice is always a challenge . Got another bath robe sewn up this afternoon . Takes less than an hour on the serger . I bought 8m of soft drapery fabric on sale at FabricLand and it 's working out quite fine . Messy stuff because it 's woven with large diameter yarn in a somewhat loose weave . It will do for what I require , however . Ohh , tummy still churning . No pain or fever , any of that sickie stuff . Just a propensity to make quick preemptive visits to the loo ! I echo fellow local blogger / weaver Lynette : " Baby , it 's COLD outside . " She may have not felt the wind over in ' balmy ' Coldstream but Falkland was buffeted by tremendous winds over the weekend in addition to considerable snow . It was a weekend to do northern Alberta proud . ' Course up there , it was even worse ; likewise the wide open prairies are suffering the first major arctic front to assault the northern plains . Just in time for Christmas , yup . It 's - 21C outside now as I write , plus windchill factor . " Oh but it never gets really cold in the Okanagan " - horse puckeys . Bryan arrived back here just barely ahead of the front , pulling into Falkland late Friday afternoon . He said the TransCanada between Golden and Revelstoke was its usual winter self - ice covered and fun . I know the old man 's home because the fridge and pantry overfloweth . He surely does enjoy grocery shopping and cooking and eating . Which all makes it even more unfair that he 's a tall skinny rack of bones while I 'm broad in the beam and round all over . On Saturday , when the snow was not too deep , Bryan was contemplating his road clearing options in lieu of a tractor . I said , " You have a tractor in the garage . It 's a little one with a mower but why couldn 't it work as a snowblower ? " I was joking , but he took the idea seriously . The next thing I know , he 's out there in his old arctic parka on the riding mower , deck up high , blade on full power , ' mowing ' the snow down the driveway . Be damned if it didn 't work ! Sorta . Good enough for the girls he dates . He packed down the rest of it with the service truck . I took pictures but don 't trust the file tranfer between this computer and the other - need to rectify that situation . On the fibre front , it 'll be a while before the loom is up and operational . At the moment , the bits and pieces of our sauna are cluttering the future weaving / sewing room . And other preliminary construction work needs to be done before said sauna is also up and operational . If it ain 't one thing , it 's another . So to pass the time , I 've been sePosted by and pertinent instructions - skip to the end of this posting if you are impatient . It 's Advent , and what do I do for entertainment this evening ? Scare myself with a scary movie . Now , as these things go it isn 't all that scary - on a 1 - to - 10 scale kinda thing , I suppose it would properly be called a suspenseful movie . Anyway , I was doing some small shopping at Stupidstore and noticed that ' The Dark Knight ' was on sale , so I bought it . And have been watching it . Sort of . I like the idea of scary movies but I really don 't ' do ' them very well . My kids will tell you I 'm their biggest annoyance if we 're watching one together at home , especially if they 've seen it before . I want to know ahead of time what 's going to happen , to alleviate the tension . That truly exasperates son Marlon . He knows me so well , he acts as my movie screener : " Mom , you 'll have to watch this one twice because you 'll have your hands over your eyes too much . " or " Mom , don 't waste your money . " Better still , " Sure , go ahead . " and then he waits and chuckles . My love - hate relationship with scary movies goes waaaaaay back . Dad could judge the scare - factor of any movie by the number of times mom or I or both of us excused ourselves from the action for a drink of water or a Kleenx or a pee break - he knew better . She still does that . Theatres are almost impossible for me because if you leave the show , you can 't rewind / play to catch what you missed . That 's why I love DVDs . It 's taken me twice as long as most people to watch the show because I have to load the clothes washer / unload and put wet things in the dryer / fold dried clothes / make a cup of tea / type on my blog . . . . . . Once the tension of the moment has subsided , I can handle the next ickky thing that 's going to happen . I 'm a Heath Ledger fan from back before he was a big and now unfortunately dead star . My favorite movie of his is ' The Order ' , where he plays a sin eater . Very good , little known show . I remember the first time I saw him - can 't think for a moment the name of the show , he played a knight wannabe iPosted by There is something magic and wonderful about a well - crafted soup , made with no recipe , only what can be scrounged from pantry and fridge . My children know the mystery of ' garbage soup ' : put it in the pot before it 's only fit for the garbage . Tonight it was a tomato - red pepper ( capsicum , you Kiwis ) and marinated artichoke hearts - carmelized onions for the stock of course , and fresh thyme and sage for the finish . A glass of good merlot , and the evening is perfect . Two blogs in one day ? Well , with husband and family far away , no TV on site and freezing rain outside , the computer is a friendly place to haunt . I was , in fact , doing some on - line shopping . Or at least that was the plan but I have as much luck there as I do in the local stores . I am so not a shopper . The journey up Silver Star was a success in several ways . I had an enjoyable meeting with George ( publishing projects in the new year - very exciting ) , a good lunch with him and Valerie , and a time of visiting that involved lots of laughter . The world is always a better place when it 's fill with laughter . Discretion being the better part of valour , I didn 't linger in town to do any shopping , nor did I call Lynnette for a visit - it was raining quite intently when I came down the mountain ( and wasn 't that a fun trip ) and I didn 't fancy driving on an icy narrow busy - Friday - night highway in the dark . Hence the soup , and the wine , and my little conversation with you . I note the photo I posted this morning has some wonky colour issues . Not sure what 's up with that . It 's fine on my computer . Hmm . How was your day ? California quail on the driveway , August 2008 . There 's a fresh blanket of snow on the ground today . Everything from last Friday was melted here on the valley floor by Sunday . As I lay in bed , enjoying a wee lay - in , I heard the plow truck labouring up the road , the harsh grating sound of blade on asphalt . To hear that sound whilst in bed up at our last place meant the roads were not in good condition at all . Plow truck drivers prefer to work in daylight when there 's a better chance impatient drivers will see the blunt end of the blade sometimes extending beyond the width of the truck . I love the huge curled plume of snow when they are clearing deep snow with the wind blade out ! Today is not a regular workday for me - ' my ' publication goes to press on Thursday . But one of the other designers was away yesterday to deal with family matters and could be away today as well . I 'm just waiting here in Falkland long enough for the post office to open so I can pick up a parcel , then head into Vernon . I was traveling in today anyway , for a luncheon date with friend George up on Silver Star Mtn . I truly must get some presents selected so as to get them off to their destinations in time ! And maybe there will be time for a cuppa with weaver Lynnette over on the easterly side of town . Writing of the plow truck sound , I am reminded of childhood mornings on the ranch in southern Alberta where I grew up . It 's in Chinook country , and laying in bed in the dark I 'd try to guess the weather by the pitch and intensity of the wind . Was it a frigid blizzard wind that would tear the breath out of me on my way to the barn to do my chores , or a wild warm Chinook wind that would turn the yard into a big sheet of ice ? Plan for the worst and hope for the best , right Todd ? In my 20s , living with husband Bryan in our big log house , it was the pop and snap of the big timbers that would alert us to extreme weather . It takes several years for the logs to settle under their own weight , and sometimes that process would create the sounds . I remember a few tiPosted by Anybody else been having trouble with their internet server these past two days ? ! I think the system was overloaded with people in an uproar over our constitutional crisis . Good news , from my point of view at least , was the GG 's decision to grant prorogation . At least it will give everyone time to settle down . . . cooler heads and all that . Read a good on - line commentary , to the effect that the Nativity scene on Parliament Hill was cancelled ; the stable was full of a $ $ es but Three Wise Men were missing . Just a quick update on things . Bryan is fine , thanks for asking . Daughter Becca reports he 's sporting a stylish neck collar as a precaution - although with fused vertebrae , his neck 's not so wobbly at the best of times . He reports being black and blue from ankles to earlobes but otherwise doing just dandy . Went curling Tuesday night for the first time in , oh , since they were still using straw brooms . Was great fun , my bad knees notwithstanding . Have a great team to play with and lots of exercise - I 'm throwing lead so sweeping lots . If I recall from my dim distant past , that 's why I used to skip - less sweeping ! The acquired table linens have all been washed and ironed , ready for wrapping . I 'm looking at the calendar and Christmas Day swiftly approaches . I really need to get my skates on to get my purchases made and parcels sent on their way . To my friends in Europe and NZ , cards and gifts are delayed . Sorry ! Look for them sometime in , hmm , shall we say May ? Just couldn 't get my act together . Every Christmas seems worse than the one before on this particular topic . I didn 't get leave for the week of the 22nd , am working on Christmas Eve ( " We leave a bit earlier " I was told ) so preparations for our house guests will be ' interesting ' . I 'm really hoping Bryan gets home before the end of next week . On the other hand , we are on ' baby alert ' with the understanding I 'll be flying / driving ( depending on weather ) to Grande Prairie sometime after Christmas . So exciting ! Falkland is all lit up from one end of town to the other . It 's quPosted by I was doing some Christmas shopping this morning before work ( start at 11am on Mondays ) , looking for place mats and napkins . What a weary task ! Made more frustrating by the knowledge that I have the tools and materials at home to make the very items I 'm unable to find anywhere in town ! ! ! I really , really , really need to get my loom set up . Yesterday did not go completely as planned . As the coffee was perking on the stove , the phone rang . Daughter Rebecca calling and sounding a bit stressed . " Mom , Don called and said Dad fell on the ice last night and is in the hospital . " It 's been raining up in the north country , covering everything in ice . He 'd been to supper with Don and Renee ; when he went to get into his truck , his feet went out from under him and he landed flat on his back , knocking his head on the ice . It 's only a short drive to our friends ' place where he 's staying , but he felt faint on the way , pulled over to the side of the road and blacked out for 15 to 20 minutes . When he came to and finally got to Bev and Gerald 's house , he was still very bad and so Bev called the ambulance . They kept him in the Valleyview hospital overnight for observation , then in to QEII Hospital in Grande Prairie Sunday morning for a CT scan . Son Marlon was thankfully home , lived only 10 short minutes away from the hospital . I called him , he went over to check on his dad . All was well - worried about his neck ( being fused , it 's possible he broke it ) and his brain . Nothing broke or scrambled but bruised from eyebrow to ankle , and those of you who know him know there isn 't any body fat to absorb the impact . He called later that day , said he was out of Valleyview Hospital and hurting like blue blazes , but otherwise " just fine . " Hmm . When Marlon pulled up to QEII , the medivac helicopter was just taking off . His first thought was , " Oh @$&^ % * , I missed Dad . " It 's a measure of our experiences with Bryan , accidents and hospitals that he automatically assumed Dad required emergency evacuation to Edmonton , and that he remained calm in the face of iPosted by It 's far too early to be up on a Sunday morning ; much much to early to be on the computer . There is that in - between time , when sleep gradually recedes and the world gently intrudes upon dreamland ( that is , on the mornings when an alarm clock doesn 't rudely shock me awake ) . I often find myself singing in that twilight , in my head ( although I 've been told I sing out loud in my sleep ) . This morning I came out of another dream of New Zealand . I hold this place so close in my heart , my other home . And in this dream I walked through the doors of St . Andrew 's of a Sunday morning , the service had already started . My companion and I had just sat down when Kim rose to welcome the faith family and then ask , " Do we have any visitors today ? " I put up my hand , he asked " Where are you from ? " and I replied , " Canada " and then I felt his arms around me giving me a tremendous hug . And the tears were rolling down my face , and they are now as I typed . I miss you all so much . And in my dream I began to sing the song you taught me , and have sung so many times since then . I 've sung it in praise and in anger , in acceptance and defiance , in hope and in despair . It 's my anchor that keeps me steady . To every good thing God is doing within methat I cannot see , Amen . And to the healing virtue of Jesusthat 's flowing in me , Amen . For ev ' ery hope that is still just a dream , by trusting in you , Lord , becomes reality . I stake my claim , seal it in faith . I say Amen . Amen , amen . So be it Lord , your word endures . I say AmenAmen , amen . So be it Lord . Amen . Some of you haven 't seen our house in Falkland ( for that matter , you didn 't see our house at Valleyview nor the log house at New Fish Creek ! ) . This is looking northwest one day in August . The scar on the mountain behind the house is the gypsum quarry . I don 't know if you can see the Canada flag up there in this picture . It 's 8m high and the letters on top are 2m high . That puts things into perspective , because the mountain doesn 't look too imposing in this shot , and it 's actually a fairly nice little mountain . Of course , the scene now is covered in white . There are other changes . The area under the veranda is now enclosed with white lattice . But the yard in the foreground is still much the same ; lots of work to do . Did I mention ( only five million times ) that there are rocks here ? Today was a perfect burning day . Perhaps only northern farmers understand that reference . When we were homesteading 25 years ago , today 's conditions were the best for burning the large windrows of trees we cleared from the land after the saw timber was removed . The fires were huge . We wanted enough snow to suppress fly ash ( but not enough to snuff the flames ) and a slight breeze to fan the fire . It didn 't take long for the fire to create it 's own wind . Other times , we were burning smaller piles of debris from sawing firewood - branches , bark . We threw in roots and stuff from cleaning up the yard and garden . In the summer , I waited for a drizzly day to burn weeds and garden debris not suitable for the compost pile . I admit it . I just like building and poking fires . Heaven help the person who mistook the ' pokey fire stick ' ( yes , that 's what we called it ) for an ordinary stick of firewood . I was having so much fun this morning , I was tempted to pull out the chainsaw and buck up the dead fir tree lying on the fire department 's lot just beside us . On second thought , it was 8 : 30am on a Saturday morning in town . What are the chances I 'd annoy a neighbour or two ? Rrrrinnggg - ng - ng - ng - ng . Yep , I 'd be popular . What do you think was Bryan 's silliest movePosted by Sorry , Becca ! I was so excited about getting your photo loaded and in place , I forgot to notify my adoring public that you are Rebecca ( aka Becca ) and this is you in your work truck ( my little ballerina - oilfield rat ! ) . And one of Bryan to prove he exists ! Him , Harry The Dog in his ' best dog ' pose , and Becca one day this past summer up at the Valleyview place . Whew ! This blogging is a tense business ! As a ' blog virgin ' , this is very exciting stuff for me . I 've been an avid reader of other people 's blogs and wondered just how they did that - blog , that is . And here I am ! The silly part is , I spend long days at work in the publishing business sitting in front of a computer ( sometimes I even use it ) . To spend even more time in front of a computer at home seems the height of foolishness , but it 's snowing and blowing outside and that 's my excuse . It will no doubt take time to make my blog a thing of beauty ( look , mom ! I did it myself ) but if nothing else , it 's a place to post photos for friends with very slow dial - up email . Shall I try to post a photo now ? Sure . . . . . and the photo is at the top of this post , so that skill will require practice . The photo is of my son Marlon and his partner Krista , and yes that 's a wee baby bump showing . She 's due 23 December . OK , photo of daughter coming up . Yes ! Now I know how to move a picture . Big sigh . Hello to my friends across North America and overseas . Perhaps this will be a better forum for my long letters . If so , let me know . For now , be patient . Wife of one , mother of two , grandmother of three , transplanted Albertan . Graphic Designer . Writer and publisher . Quilter , spinner and sometime weaver with an old 48 " loom . Sport motorcyclist , gardener and reader . View my complete profile

He immediately noticed the voice . It was high pitched , then he looked down to see two lumps sticking out from under his shirt . Suddenly , the events of last night came rushing back to him . After drinking with a few of his friends , things got interesting . His friend , Natalie , pulled out a big jar of colorful candy - like pills . She explained to her friends that they were magic . Each pill would transform your body in some way . The green ones would change your gender ; the orange ones would change your race ; the yellow ones changed your age ; and so on . For each pill eaten , the change would last a day . Now that he was sober , the consequences of his decisions were weighing fully on him . He was going to be stuck like this for a month ! He then noticed the pills lay next to him in the bed with a note from Natalie saying he could keep them if he decided he wanted to keep this body longer . He wondered where he got the pink shorts from - - thinking Natalie must 've had some extra clothes with her that she let him borrow after he transformed . He just couldn 't remember . Then he heard the toilet flushing and Kevin came out of the bathroom while zipping up his fly . Curtis suddenly gulped . He didn 't do something else that he couldn 't remember , did it ? And the second part was done . It was a little harder than Richard had originally hoped - - though not in the way he had expected it would be . Psychologically , it wasn 't so bad , but Melanie 's body wasn 't quite as strong as he had anticipated . Actually thrusting the knife in proved difficult . It got messy . He was pretty satisfied , and he hoped he 'd never have to use the body swapping spell again , but he was prepared to use it one more time . . . just in case he was ever caught . The easy part was done . . . if it could really be called easy . Richard had successfully used the magic spell to steal Melanie 's body . Now it was time for the hard part . He was going to have to kill his former body . After all , he couldn 't have Melanie blabbing about body swapping or anything . He looked at his new reflection on the side of a shiny knife and took a deep breath . He was gorgeous now , and he 'd have to stick this knife into his former chest in a little under an hour . That was going to be tough on a psychological level . " What the hell do you think you are doing ? " Kelly screamed when she saw Max enter the room , " We agreed to try to pretend to be each other as long as our bodies are swapped . I don 't run around dressed up like Sailor Moon ! " Kelly wasn 't quite sure if she should scream at him even more . She certainly never expected Max would ever act girlie , even if he was stuck in her body . She was actually a little worried about him . Maybe when they used that computer program to swap bodies had resulted in Max being a little reprogrammed as well . Something was just not right about the way he was acting . Being a hitman wasn 't an easy job , but Vinny had gotten used to it . More than that , he knew he was good at it , and he felt like there was nothing he couldn 't handle . But as he finished cleaning up from his latest job , he finally dealt with a situation that he wasn 't sure he could stomach . In one moment , he was washing his bloody hands and in the next , he was parking a sedan in a suburban neighborhood . He walked cautiously out of the car and down the street . Every step was uncomfortable and awkward , as he was dealing with an unfamiliar body . He could tackle laundering money , murdering people , bribing , and blackmail , but being stuck in the body of a suburban housewife was somehow going too far for him . Before heading out on vacation , Tom had read up extensively about his destination . He was pretty sure he 'd be hitting up all the best restaurants , sites , and beaches . But there was one really far - fetched urban legend that he thought sounded outright strange . Supposedly on one of the beaches , there was a cave with two entrances quite a distance apart . You 'd pick an entrance and make your way through the dark cave until finally coming to a dead end where the rocks split and a bright patch of light seeped through . After doing so , you 'd swap bodies with the person on the other side of the crack , who had come in the other entrance . It seemed like a bit of a larf , so he made his way to the beach and found one of the caves . They weren 't crowded , but he did stumble past a few people as he made his way in the darkness . After about a 15 minute walk , he saw the light . Before he was even able to peek through , there was a flash and he was surprisingly on the other side of the crack . Tom had to admit that his first reaction was one of surprise . He hadn 't expected the tale to even be remotely true , but there he stood . He was now in the body of a bikini clad woman who had been on the other side of the cave . He wiggled his body a little , just to feel how differently it moved . He looked back through the crack , walked away for a bit then walked back , hoping to trigger a swap back . It didn 't take long for him to realize that there was going to be no easy way to get back to normal . It wasn 't until Hector sat down at his desk when he finally noticed something was wrong . He took a quick swivel , and he realized his feet didn 't quite touch the floor like they should . The next moment he looked down to discover he was wearing a dress and high heels . He rushed to the bathroom , hesitating about which one to pick before reluctantly settling on the women 's room . His jaw dropped when he looked in the mirror . He had seen her on the train a few times , but today for some reason he had swapped bodies with her . He couldn 't believe he didn 't notice it as he walked from the train to his office . Maybe there was a reason for that . Maybe whatever caused him to swap bodies with her didn 't want him to notice right away , but why now ? " Yes , dude , " Terrance sighed , " Our bodies are locked in these rooms with a constant stream of nutrients and sedation drugs pumped into their system to keep them unconscious . The women we 've swapped with won 't even move a muscle until we 're done with their bodies . We hired them to look after our bodies while we are in stasis . In a way , that 's exactly what they 're doing . " " It 's a safety measure . We 're trillionaires ; we can 't afford to take any risks . What if they had tried to poison us ? Or kills us ? Now , relax and let 's enjoy our temporary bodies to their fullest and have some fun . " Paul had been stuck in Wendy 's body for a day now . It had gone well so far ; he thought he adapted well enough . However , he had yet to use the bathroom . The idea of going just made him uncomfortable ; he didn 't want to think about Wendy 's body in that way . When he finally sat down to go , he let out a large fart . He had to accept a painful reality that women 's bodies did fart , but it got worse when he would soon come to realize that they also poop too ! Chuck rolled his eyes after Rachel told him that she hadn 't finished translating the next portion of the spell from the ancient book yet . He was growing impatient . It had been a week since she finished translating the first part of the spell , the part that had swapped their bodies ! She tried to explain to him that translating the book was no small feat . It was written in a completely extinct language with no reference . In fact , just translating that first part that turned out to be a magic spell had taken her a year to translate . Chuck didn 't want to hear any excuses ; he just wanted to be back in his own body . And so Scott helped Aiden zip up his very tight jeans . Aiden smiled before Scott lifted him to his feet . Neither was happy about being stuck in their girlfriends ' bodies , but they were glad they were stuck together . At least they could each help the other out . After the Great Shift , all Michael wanted to do was find his original body . The chaotic situation of everyone else being swapped as well made it quite difficult . It also didn 't help that his new body was so short as well . He probably only stood at a little over five feet tall with this woman 's body . Everyone seemed to be towering above him . It wasn 't exactly uncommon after Clark fought with his wife for the two to engage in an epic love - making session . But it was a bit more of a twist when he woke up the next morning in her body . His shocked scream awoke her . She laughed as she explained that she was actually still quite angry with him , and that she used a curse her grandmother had given her to swap bodies as a punishment to teach him a lesson . Clark 's jaw drop . " Oh , these are a curse ? " He asked motioning to his chest , " Do you really think I am going to be complaining about any of this ? Do you have a brain ? Plus , I know that curse . It reverses when I apologize . Do you really think I am going to give this up ? Because I 'm not apologizing ever . And I think it 's going to be you who are the one who is going to feel stuck soon enough . " Josh ran from his car to his office . He only had one more minute to get to his desk ; if he was late again , his boss would kill him . Running like this was much easier before the Great Shift when he was able to wear pants and shoes instead of a dress and heels . He thought the fact that everyone swapped bodies might 've relaxed the office dress code , but no ! And everyone was expected to dress based on what their new bodies were , which meant he had to dress like the woman he now was . It was annoying , but he couldn 't afford to be fired - - which also meant he couldn 't afford to be late ! Quite honestly , it was absolutely humiliating . Before the Shift happened , Bruce had been an all - around great athlete . He excelled in baseball , football , track , and just about anything else you could think of . But now he couldn 't even catch a ball headed for his head . The woman he ended up swapping with had bad eyes . For the nearsightedness , he got some contact lenses instead of using the glasses she wore . But there was little he could do for her poor depth perception . He knew he 'd have to try to adjust , but it really wasn 't easy . Weeks ago , he had come into the coffee shop and made Mona an offer to swap bodies . She couldn 't believe it . She made only a little more than minimum wage working as a barista ; Kevin 's suit looked like it cost more than she made in a month . He had a high paying job on Wall Street and a pent house apartment in Lower Manhattan . If she agreed to this , that would all be hers . How could she say no ? When she returned to the cafe that day with a sour look on her face , Kevin knew exactly what had happened . He was being indicted for insider trading , or , rather , Mona was being indicted , now that she was the one in his body . He may be a poor barista now , but he wasn 't going to jail . Anytime Sam sat down to eat in public , people would come and ask how he could stay so thin . He was always stuffing his face with a lot of fatty food . They asked if he had a secret magic diet . He didn 't have a diet , but he did have a magic secret . He had the ability to switch bodies . Any time he felt like he was gaining weight , he 'd just swap bodies with someone thin . In fact , he just swapped bodies with a skinny Asian woman . The first thing he did was go out and pig out on some doughnuts . Sure enough , with his mouth full , a person came up to him and asked how he managed to stay so skinny . Jeffrey showed a lot of promise on his college baseball team , at least before the Great Shift hit . When he found himself in the body of a woman , he was depressed . He could no longer pitch the way he used to , but maybe he could keep trying . After all , he hadn 't always been good at baseball . It took many years of hard work for him to get good the first time . But how fast could he turn it around this time ? And even if he did , would anyone accept a woman in the sport ? Wyatt did his best to bite his lip and hold his tongue as Mia told him the news . She couldn 't swap their bodies back to normal , not yet . The machine she had invented needed to recharge , and it wouldn 't be working for the next 24 hours . Wyatt wasn 't sure if she was lying , but he figured it best not to anger Mia . She had used that weird machine to switch their bodies in the first place , and if he didn 't cooperate , she might find another excuse to keep them stuck like this longer . And , of course , if he ended up stuck in this body over the weekend , he 'd miss the big game and let the entire college down . He was the best linebacker stuck in the body of a small Asian woman . And Mia had plenty of reasons to want to take his body for good ; he could only hope this was only temporary as she promised . John 's jaw dropped when he suddenly found himself looking at his own face . Then he looked over to see Mike , and he was in a downright panic . The only other person sitting at the table had been Mike 's girlfriend , Jenna . And if he was no longer himself and he wasn 't Mike that meant . . . He couldn 't believe it ! He was in Jenna 's body ! He just kept looking back and forth at his former body and Mike in shock with his mouth wide open . He wasn 't even able to form a single word to express his surprise .

If you can read this , then we have something in common . We both come from the old time , before the catabolism , an event you might remember in old terms ; market values , mechanical malfunctions , magnetic poles , solar storms , tectonic plates . We both remember watching as the cosmos refused those terms , shaking them off like broken shackles , running wild . We remember realizing the time we lived in was no longer ours . We realized that the bindings we had been trained to wield now only held us back , the universe we had been disciplined and trained to wield had broken free , leaving us ill - adapted to the semiologies of survival emerging around us . We watched our younger siblings , who never expected anything else , take to the feral cosmos with an unfearing proficiency . Using tools we often cannot perceive properly , they created a world in which we are increasingly anathema . All the while we watch dumbfounded , not old enough to have been heroes ; Great Ones who shepherded whatever humans they could into this new time , but old enough so that our expectations of the old world haunt our ability to participate in this one . Like fish whose younger siblings crawl out of the water to breath the air and see the sky , we watch , unable to follow , unable to see past the surface , which for us is still the sky . In the world we were trained for , being an adult meant knowing how to read , how to write , how to do math , how to drive a car , understanding how money worked , how time worked , how laws worked . In this world , such things would be frivolities if they were not so tedious . Not only are they useless , but they can endanger a growing mind which needs to learn other things , like how to use blood to awaken a bike and keep it alive , how to navigate an airship through the storms of lost thoughts , how to listen to the song of the stars and call water from the other three elements , how to see a horizon beast , and gain its trust . This is why we will always be outsiders , because we will never be able to do these things . When I was little , people would ask me what I wanted to be . I told them I wanted to be an astronaut . Such a fun , ambitious sounding word for what they used to call " a girl " . It seems silly , antiquated and overcomplicated , now that all you need is someone who can sing the Song of Folding Distances to walk in the light of any sun you wish . Still , I can remember staring up at the sky as its meaning changed , as I realized the word astronaut would never make sense again . I remember looking up words adults used to try to explain what was happening , applying images to names , as if the answer to saving everything lay in understanding what the adults were talking about . Eventually , the adults stopped having words for things . After that , the adults I knew were gone , and instead there was Pama Tu , a different kind of adult , the kind that I had been told not to stare at . I had been reading for years when they discovered it made the difference between the old minds and the new , that it was almost as bad as coming to sentience inside a room full of right angles . I tried to stop reading , but the damage had been done . No strange unimaginable powers awakened within me , I could not perceive new patterns in nature , no ancient reawakened beings came to teach me their language and ways . I can remember when many of the younger children started talking about strange animals we couldn 't see which grazed on the ruins of the old world . They would be gone for days and return with stories too strange to believe until the day they took us to gather mint , wild onions , and tubers in places that should have been only ruin and desolation . I can remember my mind straining to see beyond the lines I used to distinguish one thing from another , catching for a brief moment a glimpse of the new patterns drifting over the land and making it blossom , my younger siblings riding them like dancers on the horizon . I remember Pama Tu , standing there in bewilderment looking at me and saying " Who ever thought , back when I rode a subway to a building where I gave my life to nothing , that the world would shape up like this ? " I should have been happy , but I ran to Pama Tu and sobbed , " Why can 't I see them ? Why can 't I ride them ? " They comforted me as best they could , but they were as powerless as I in the face of this world and its indifferent wonders . I retreated to my books and my typewriter , hoping that words might be my power . I quickly learned that the stagnancy of words was no longer useful in a place where things attached to other things and became something new altogether . Using the old words kept me from perceiving the chaos , a comfort that locked my mind into one state , one angle , one moment of a thing , and in doing so losing its emerging totality . In the old world , everything had already been categorized and decided in a way that the Great Ones said trapped their potential . When things freed themselves , resulting in the catabolism , when so many new things emerged , the Great Ones wanted to leave things as unsorted as they could , letting the children born to this world create the language they would use to swim in it . I remember rebelliously naming the place we lived the Fractured Planes / Plains , thinking it was clever that both words could be spoken at the same time . Now , the name is a joke . They will come up to me , point out at whatever comprises the landscape , and laughingly say the name that I gave it so long ago . What really gets them going is when I try to explain why it ever made sense in the first place . Instead of giving up , I retreated even further into the written . I committed my mind to the impossible task of translating every ever - changing thing into the language of the old time . This they warily indulged , and I was often given pens , along with scavenged books and paper , the edges torn off to break the rectangles , thus mitigating the risk of invoking the baleful old powers . One day Pama Tu , after noticing I 'd been feverishly working at my writing for hours , came and sat next to me . We had discussed this kind of thing before , why I buried myself in words , my isolation , why I thought this was my only choice in the face of the unfairness of the world . But tonight something was different . Something about the way they spoke . " I know that you don 't remember much of the old world . Even though you 've heard the stories , you can 't know the way that words hunted us , the way that numbers waited for us at night . Our lives spent in rectangles as we worked in numbers and words . When I wasn 't thinking of words and numbers , I was dreaming of some kind of different world , and when the chance for that world came - when the catabolism happened and we were able to see beyond the rectangles that had been drawn around us - I realized that chance had arrived . I won 't pretend that I understand you , but when I see you working at this thing the way you do , I see someone who is waiting for their chance . " They gripped my hand and looked into my eyes . " When my chance came , I was ready to dance on these new winds , but I saw you and all these other little storm seeds and I knew I had to bring you with me just to see what you would grow into . I promise you that one day your chance will come , but every chance comes with a choice about how you will shape this world . So go back to your words , just don 't forget that there is a world beyond them , a world that is worth protecting . " I had no idea what they were talking about . All I remembered from the old world was that it had been stable , it had been safe , and it had been mine . I had no idea of the ancient and compulsive horrors which had been used to break people like Pama Tu , which could be resummoned into the world . I had a faint recollection of things like ammunition , things like laws , things like debt ; things which I could never fully understand . I knew how those words were defined by other words and how they made numbers change , but I didn 't learn how those words and numbers changed the world , changed the heart - until they took Pama Tu . We had grown up hearing stories about debt , about how the old world ran on its power to compel people to do things against their will . Like everyone , we were told never to expect to get back what we had given . To do such a thing would give us an unnatural power over the other person , that it would cause both people to think in numbers in harmful ways , making other things invisible or irrelevant . We knew that Pama Tu , like all of the Great Ones , had debt . That was how things were before the catabolism , people had no choice about things , everything was built up so that everyone had to serve the old powers that ran on debt and spewed ammunition . Even the ones like Pama Tu , who could see them and fight against them , were still a part of them ; they had debt and fired ammunition , or made it , or made things for the people who did . As Pama Tu liked to say " you either made ammunition , or you cleaned for the people who did " . In a world where people ride the beasts of the horizon , build airships and blood bikes and hear the songs of stars on water , the stories the Great Ones told about the world before the catabolism were just stories , stories to scare us off to bed or to keep us in line . Behave , or the ways of the old world will return . Even I , who spent my time reading about these things , and had the vaguest memories of them , had trouble imagining it . And so when we heard the rumors of men riding on strange , loud machines , men who were tracking down and hunting the Great Ones for their debt , we were not nearly as afraid or angry as we should have been . After all , such a thing seemed too distant and strange to be real . We should have known better . They took Pama Tu when they went into the new grazing grounds . We should have stopped them , but to be fair , they didn 't believe any more than we did that the old powers would come back . They wanted to look at the sunlight on the old brick buildings just after the rain . They said that there was no sight quite like it , they wanted to see it before the beasts got to it , and really , who were we to stop them ? When the rain returned , but Pama Tu didn 't , we worried . A group of listeners went into the grazing grounds to find them , returning with nothing except a story about the bricks and broken concrete , a story of a quiet moment in the sun after the rain , a story of that moment being broken by men in heavy vehicles with chains and whips and dogs , men who barked like dogs , whose barks could still be heard alongside Pama Tu swearing and screaming for help ringing faintly in the glass of the broken windows . That is what they told me . It did not take us long to find the place where they had brought our Great Ones and the Elders of the First People . We went in the direction where the ash in the sky was coming from , we followed the waters which ran red with something that made the mouth and throat burn . The sky cried out where they were . As we moved forward under ever darkening skies and poisoned rivers , we heard the listeners tell us what had happened when the Great Ones and the Elders and their kidnappers had passed this way : where the ancient machines had stopped , where people had tried to escape and how ; where they had been recaptured , and how they had been punished . My hands shook as I stepped forward to volunteer . I had spent the better part of my life reminiscing and fantasizing about the old world . Yet there was a stark difference between my imaginings and this towering place . It was terrifyingly real , and yet I could still remember entire landscapes of such places stretching to the horizon before the catabolism . This place was nothing compared to the powers as they existed before , the powers which as a child I had not feared . I said this to myself as my knees buckled and my courage faltered in the face of this thing that threatened to devour everything I had known since I had been with Pama Tu . Pama Tu ! They were inside this place , them and others like them , so precious to us . Someone had to go in and see them , to find them , to see if they were alright , and how could they be alright in a place like this ? So I stepped forward and said " I will go in with you . I will tell the others what I see . " I almost expected someone to speak out against me , to say that I couldn 't be trusted , that I was an in - between child and so might be lured into the old ways . They would have been right . Even I didn 't know if the very power of that place , and my mind 's attunement to it , would be too powerful to resist . Instead , the ones who could muster the strength to walk over to me did . There was nothing the hordes could give me that would have protected me from the power of that place . The moment I stepped through the gate , the charms around my neck , arms , shoulders , head and waist became so many pointless gaudy baubles , the words they had spoken became pithy sayings in the face of a relentlessly stable Truth . Nothing coursed through me . Nothing connected me to anything . Naked in a world of right angles , I was home . I had entered reality again . For the first time since the catabolism , everything around me made sense . It took a few seconds for my mind to readjust to the old forms , as if I had been on a boat since the catabolism , and had just stepped now back onto solid ground . For the first time since the catabolism , I could point at something and name it , and be right . I could name everything I was looking at : stairs , bars , locks , crates . They had brought back things that I had thought were lost forever - how had they found them ? I stared at the screens full of numbers and the papers full of numbers as the men explained to me how all of our Great Ones had debt which they had never been able to get rid of . But now these men had found a way to help them get rid of it , because they had also found how to make ammunition . By making ammunition , our Great Ones could get rid of their debt . There it was . They had awakened the power of debt . They had harnessed it and used it to compel our Great Ones in this place . Suddenly they felt less great to me . The debt hung on them like a stain , something they had tried to hide , and Pama Tu had been good at hiding it . Maybe that was why they didn 't want us to talk about it , that was why they were afraid of it , they knew that if we understood debt , we would see them for what they were . They were people who had taken and not given back . There it was , all in the numbers , in the words . You could measure their worth , the absence of their worth , the vacuum of their worth . A vacuum they could fill in this place and become whole again . Then they took me to see the ones with debt , to watch them mixing powders , making shells and casings , filling those shells and casings with powder . I listened as the men explained how the Great Ones had lied to us all about the old world ; in the old world people had things that until now we would never have , but now we had a chance to have those things again . There they were : the computers , the papers , the wires , the water that had been forced into the walls . I looked at the ones with debt , the ones that were now workers , they were wretched . Their eyes were sad and empty as they gave the reawakened old powers what was owed . I tried to feel pity , but all I could feel was embarrassment for them . They had let themselves have debt , why should we trust them with anything ? I wanted to help them , but I could feel the strength of the old powers and knew that this was just the way things were . I tried to find Pama Tu amongst them , and I may have seen them , or someone that looked like them , but everything looked different in this place . They took me to another room , showed me more papers full of words and numbers , the ones which promised to release their workers if others agreed to work to fulfill their debts . Amidst the beeping and the clicking and the clanging , the men offered me perfectly rectangular papers which explained how many people the gathered horde needed to give the men and how many years would pass until more people would need to be brought to this place . I took the papers , feeling the power that they conferred . I held them as I was led back out to the threshold , back to the world that would never be home , the world that would never be something I could understand no matter how long I lived there . I crossed back to the horde and tried to remember that they had once been my people . It was hard to make sense of anything . My memories of the catabolism were that it had been violent and sudden . I had not realized how gradual the transition from the old world to this one had been , until now , as my mind stepped instantly from the old reality to this one . I was unable to latch onto anything that would make everything else make sense . The landscape buckled , someone was screaming to music which made the people change colors . Worlds grew like grain and became stars on the clear water of a sun drenched ocean . Some of them were people , or animals . I stood on that ocean . I tried to tune out the song , tried to navigate by memory , but everything had already escaped my memories , had become something else . My connection to this time had been severed . Whatever habits of mind I had used to translate this present into something I could understand had been lost when I had entered the rectangle . I was sure they were all there , staring at me , waiting for me to tell them what I had seen , but how could I ? What words would I use to describe the incomprehensible to the incomprehensible ? Standing on the threshold between two worlds , neither of which I could fully translate to the other , I realized that this was what I had been waiting for . All that time keeping the words , understanding the old world - everything had been to prepare me for this moment , and yet I was not ready . All I had was the knowledge that back inside the rectangle lay a place and a time in which I had power . My entire being wanted nothing more than to crawl back inside , to live there , to join the men as we brought the world to heel with the old powers . I would watch my siblings who had once mocked me made hollow and meaningless by toil . This was what Pama Tu had meant about my choice , but it didn 't really feel like a choice . Her words were the words of an indebted , who would have done anything , said anything , to not pay back what she owed the old powers . I had to find a way to explain to them what needed to happen , how many people they needed to send in , for how long , and how many more people after that . I stared at the sheets of paper , feeling their power , trying to find a way to bring that power into this place , this time beyond the catabolism . I tore the pieces of paper apart . I refused to think or speak about what the men had said inside the walls of that terrible place . Instead , I turned , I pointed at the walls , the only stable thing in my field of vision , and I screamed . I screamed because I wanted that world back , I screamed because it scared me , but I also screamed because this was my moment , and I took it against all the temptation the old powers could offer me . I could not speak against them , but I could point and scream . We did not leave any of the men who had summoned the old powers alive . Their blood and skulls were given to the blood - bike riders , who bound their souls to power their bikes . The papers full of numbers were burned , ashes scattered to the winds , the computers broken down and reconfigured by circuitwrights . The airships broke their walls into piles of rubble , and my siblings let their herds trample and graze the rubble until there were no stones . When we left that place nothing remained of the men or their work , except for the memorials to our dead , and the sprouting orchard which the herd had left in their wake . Doubtless there are other writings and numbers which keep the debts of our Great Ones , and other writings and figures which tell how more such places could be built . I am sure that there are people out there who want to find these writings to bring back the old ways . Yet understanding such a thing would require someone to be able to read . This is why I have written this story down , because I wanted you to find it first . If you can read this , then you are the enemy . You cannot see or know the world that that has come , and so you might be tempted to bring back the ways of the old world . Understand that we will give our last dying breath to stop you . We will give no warning , there will be no hesitating or negotiating , we will destroy you as we destroyed the others . This is your warning . The old powers cannot protect you . Post was not sent - check your email addresses ! Email check failed , please try again Sorry , your blog cannot share posts by email . % d bloggers like this :

One of the upsides of leaving Manhattan for a small Southern city , I always said , was that I didn 't think I had the constitution for the school situation in New York . When I was pregnant with Alden I would talk to other pregnant women who were getting their zygotes onto all the " right " waiting lists . If that was isolated to all those crazy rich people you read about , with their 30K - a - year preschools it would have been easy to ignore . No pressure to fight for a place we could never , ever dream of affording . But lots of regular , conscientious parents - people living in our same building - were doing it . Everyone was ramped up about districting , charters , bi - lingual magnets . It all sounded impossibly complicated and stressful . I never minded the subway ( loved it , actually ) . I was happy to buy only as many groceries as I could carry back to our apartment . 800 square feet felt plenty big enough . Lots of things people hate about New York , I loved . ( I did not love how we bled money constantly . ) This , though , I knew was going to push all the wrong buttons for me . It 's not why we moved , but I was so relieved that I escaped . Five years later , we have just emerged from a crushingly stressful re - evaluation of our school situation . It was one of those situations where we ( me , Damon , my Mom ) couldn 't seem to talk about anything else . There was insomnia . There were tears , including a flash flood in the middle of a meeting with a prospective school director and one of her teachers . That was when they told me they felt Alden ( who is already on the older side for his grade ) should be held back and repeat kindergarten . Which would mean he would graduate at 19 and a half . He is not going to repeat kindergarten , although I acknowledge and respect their informed opinion on the matter . This all started as we came , painfully , to the conclusion that we have two non - Montessori kids in a Montessori school . I went to a very similar kind of school when I was little , and I remember so clearly being so happy there . I felt so sure that was the most perfect learning environment . But what I 've slowly come to realize it that it was the perfect learning environment for me . Alden , it seems , has taken advantage of the great freedom to spend a lot of time daydreaming . He likes to gaze out the window . He 's also a little bored , having been in the same classroom for probably at least one year too many . So he doesn 't know what most kids know as they wrap up their kindergarten year . I think the intense academic focus of early grades is ridiculous , for sure . I don 't even care , objectively , that Alden is behind . But eventually he would have to leave the Montessori bubble ( school only goes through 5th ) and the risk just felt too real that he would graduate 5th grade on a 3rd grade level . And then where would we be ? So we did a little testing to see if there 's an issue . So far , it seems not . His intelligence is fine . There are no clear learning disabilities ( although I allow that something like dyslexia could still reveal itself ) . He just needs someone to sit his butt down and teach him . He actually , it seems , enjoys that . The good news is that we found a lovElliot . Well , that 's a whole different situation . One of the first shakeups in this whole school nonsense was when we took Elliot to a prospective school and were gently asked , " You do know he 's not old enough to go to kindergarten next year , right ? " No . We definitely did not know that . We 100 % thought he was going to kindergarten . But it seems that in 2013 the state moved the cut off back one month , and Elliot was a rising kindergartener no more . We had no idea . Which means if he stayed in Montessori he would , like Alden , be in the same classroom for what would likely be too many years . That 's so great for so many kids . Not mine , though . Elliot is already restless with the pastoral , peaceful , quiet nature of his wonderful Montessori classroom . One of the most consistent notes we 've gotten about him this year is that he 's disruptive . He just cannot seem to keep still . On the other hand , he 's pacing well ahead for his age . He loves to learn and will extract knowledge from almost any situation . That school that wanted to hold Alden back ? It looks like a summer camp . The kids are outdoors a minimum of an hour a day . They eat outside . They troop all over the campus . They wear pedometers to show their commitment to movement . They use physical discipline - misbehaving means laps , not timeouts . They are also driven and fast - moving academically . And they invited Elliot to join their pre - kindergarten program just for kids who don 't make that school cut off but are ready for a little more than another year of preschool . So now we have something I never even contemplated . The boys are going to different schools next year . I hate that . But which one should I ask to sacrifice ? I can 't . We will learn a lot this year and maybe decide to move one guy next year . Or maybe not . I never would have guessed we 'd wind up in this place . And yet , now it feels right . Alden will spend time every day in the chapel ; Elliot will spend time every day in the woods . Lest I sound too proud of Elliot 's " advanced " acad2 Sunday Dinner is back ! I can see that , slowly , slowly , I am coming into a little more discretionary time . It 's a product of a few things . The first is that , for better and worse , the boys occupy themselves and one another with more independence all the time . I am still the moon to them , but maybe not so much the stars . Mostly I 'm so grateful that , for the time being , they are excellent friends to one another . Not only does this leave me to myself more often now , but it has a halo effect in that I 'm not entirely exhausted all of the time . So , my plants are happier . My closet is ( a little ) tidier . I exercise occasionally . I am catching up with television and movies ( although I am still years behind ) . And I am back amidst my pots and pans . I acknowledge that this could all unwind in an instant , which is my bloggy version of knocking on wood . Lack of time never stops me from thinking of , from missing , my Dad . His birthday was last month . It felt good to bring out his recipe folder . I 'll bet he made most of those things either once or never , but he saved them because they appealed to him . And so they appeal to me . In picking , I wanted something that seemed kind of simple and essential , and a roast seemed like my Dad 's definition of those things . I 've never heard of eye of round roast . Or round roast . But the butcher had , so we were a go . The recipe is obviously simple , but I still managed to overcook it . I did not consider that my roast was very much on the small side and I should have adjusting the cooking time down to accommodate that . It 's fine . It 's edible . It 's just a boring roast to me . Damon loves it and Elliot says , " More beefs , please . " Alden won 't touch it , reminding me that , " I 'm not really a fan of meat . " I had a bite , toasted my Dad with my glass of milk ( a shared favorite ) and will just be grateful to be back at work on the folder . I am never , never going to go down the navel - gazing road of " Why am I blogging ? " on this blog . ( Probably . Maybe . ) Recently , though , I discovered that what this is doing for me in the present ( letting me write , making a record for the boys ) isn 't all . I 've discovered the charming Timehop app , which sends along an update daily to show you what you posted on social media one , two , three years ago ( or however long you 've been sharing ) that day . I love it completely , and I 'm so grateful to my past self for the blog posts I wrote . In the past few weeks I 've gotten to re - live birthday parties , sweet little moments I would have forgotten and , most powerfully , the days where we got one " all clear " after another in regards to Alden 's mystery illness . I felt the relief and joy all over again . Hi ! You 're writing this blog post while on a business trip . You 've probably taken quite a few more since then . I hope you 're still remembering that you can miss the boys and still appreciate that you can see the ocean from your hotel room . Also , remember how you agonized over where they were going to go to school ? I 'll bet you 're nodding now and smiling , because it all worked out just fine . Also , please tell me you finally got around to watching Breaking Bad and Game of Thrones . Even just one of them . It felt unreal . I have no idea , and no one else has any idea , where my barely - 4 - year - old is . He 's just loose in the world . Maybe striking out West ? Getting married ? Who can say ? Because I don 't know where he is or what he 's doing . What happened was … We took the boys to my hometown theme park , King 's Island . Damon and cousin Colleen took off to hit those rides that make me anxious just to watch . I took off with the boys for Snoopy Land , which is more their speed and mine . I hit a frustration wall with their relative paces - I have one lagger ( Alden moves at about 1 agonizing mph ) and one dasher ( Elliot 's stuck in fifth gear . Is fifth a gear ? ) and finally decided to put them both under stroller arrest . I parked them in a cafe and , as I shifted purses and jackets off the stroller , Elliot turned and walked out . At least I assume that 's what happened . I looked up and he was gone . 1 . Aggravation . This is the first two or three minutes , where I 'm still assuming that Elliot is under a table , behind a plant or otherwise within reach and I will find him momentarily . Along with being a runner , he is a hider , so this isn 't unfamiliar territory . 2 . Dawning Anxiety . He really doesn 't seem to be in the cafe . This is when I parked Alden with my mom and another cousin , and started jogging up and down the walkways near the cafe . Surely . SURELY he is nearby . Nope . 3 . Houston , we have a problem . This is when I acknowledge to myself that he is lost . I call Damon and get voice mail . He 's probably strapped into some crazy ride and likely can 't hear his phone ringing . I leave him a 10 - second rundown and tell myself that by the time he calls back I will be able to answer with , " I 've got him . " I start to increase the range of my search while trying to make sure I 'm not missing a possibility right under my nose . It 's not like the pathways are linear , so I 'm frustratingly aware that at any moment he could be within sight - behind me . 4 . Time to Get Serious . Roughly 10 minutes have gone by . This was the part where I have to make the decision to stop looking . I need to go get help . I know that he could be moving farther away or getting into more trouble with each minute that passes . One person searching for him is not enough . I go find a park employee and ask where the lost children office is . What I 'm doing now is a little faster than a jog as I head over to file a report . When I start laying out the story I 'm waiting for the woman behind the desk to tell me that this happens all the time . She doesn 't . She 's a nice woman who seems to be filling in . She hunts and pecks on the keyboard and has to check several times to make sure she 's " doing this right . " I do not grab her by the lapels and shake her . A note on kidnappers : Of the various concerns pinging on my radar , this one hardly registered . Statistically , it 's just so unlikely . Even at my most concerned , I was well aware that Elli was in more danger on the highway to the theme park than he was at risk of some nut case grabbing him . What I was getting more concerned about by the minutes is that he would find his way into a dangerous area and be exposed to something like a ride mechanism or power sources . I 'd already hauled his heinie out once as he tried to shimmy under a fence that very day . I was also mentally reviewing all the parts of the park I 'd seen for fountains , lakes and ponds . I also hoped that he wasn 't too scared , wherever he was . But I also kind of hoped he was very scared , scared enough to remember next time he thought about heading out . 5 . This Can 't Be Happening Land . Damon calls as I 'm finishing giving the woman a description of Elliot . I pick up , aware that she 's not going to actually hit " enter " on this sucker until I answer all her questions . It goes like this : I wrap up with the woman and she says , " Okay , the security guys are on their way . You can wait right here for them and … " I 'm getting into the groove of interrupting people . I say , " You have my cell number . I 'm going to look some more . Your security guys can call me when they get here . " We 're at about 15 minutes . 6 . The Most Likely Thing Happens . I start to circle around the park again , each loop a little bigger than the last . I push back firmly on terribly thoughts like , " What if you have to leave here tonight without him ? " And then . There he is . Walking down a pathway with a park worker carrying a broom and dustpan . I can see that they 're chatting . Elliot looks totally unconcerned . As I pull up next to them , Elliot looks over and says , " Mommy , I was looking all over for you . " He 's peevish . The guy ( I 'm sorry I didn 't get your name , nice guy ! ) tells me he saw Elli loitering outside a pretzel stand ( which I 'd checked , because he HAD been asking for a pretzel ) and was bringing him over to the lost kid office . 7 Denouement . I called around that all is well . We all took several deep breaths . The lady called my to tell me the security guys had arrived and I was able to answer , " I 've got him . " We bought a round of ice cream cones . Then we went back to riding rides , because that seemed like a better choice than letting this ruin our day . What I learned from this : Whenever I take Elliot out in a crowd I write my cell number on his arm with a Sharpie . Since it 's winter , I also write " Call my mom " on the back of his hand with an arrow pointing under his sleeve . It is my fervent hope that by spring he will be slightly less inclined towards these shenanigans . Years ago I wrote a post called Goodbye to the Baby . I remembered that easily because I felt it so deeply . And now , doesn 't 4 & 6 sound so , so much older than 3 & 5 ? Just a month ago I was still in that place where my sons ' ages made people 's eyes widen a little . Now , eh . No big deal . Elliot apparently aged several years right there in the chair , and has possibly joined a gang . I am a battle picker . That means the boys wear their hair how they like it and pick their own clothes when they care to . Which is why Elliot went to school today in white bucks . I 'm not all laissez faire though . So far they don 't know that sweat pants exist . This morning Damon gently suggested that we probably don 't have a need for our pack and play or exersaucer anymore . His timing was excellent . Normally I would shout down such nonsense , but I just put a big down payment on a vacation for next year and I suppose I could squeeze a few dollars out of some of that gear . I guess my nostalgia has a price tag . When I was a little girl my parents sold our dining room table . I laid on top of the table and cried for the poor thing , part of our family that we were coldly discarding . I should probably make sure that I am not home when the buyer comes for the stroller . I drew the line at the tricycles . I will ride them myself if I have to prove their usefulness . I loved the baby days . Loved , loved them . I find crazy toddlers delightful . At least my own . That 's all over now . And that makes me really sad . What saves me is that the boys now , as they are , continue to be endlessly interesting to me . It 's harder now to know what they need , but I 'm fully engaged in trying to figure that out . They are still funny and charming with great big hearts . And so different , which is also a gift . They are such a gift . I 'm just overwhelmingly aware of my good fortune . That they are who they are . That they came into my life when they did . That Damon is their Dad . That my mom is right down the road and a major part of their days . That so many people surround them with love , and all the different ways that can look . I miss the babies , but I have more than enough .

Over the years , many people from our church have been a part of the Argentina missions trips , and have been very appreciative of their time there . I personally have benefitted greatly from the multiple conversations I 've had with Pastor Jorge Ahualle , Eduaro Buldain , and many of the leaders and members of IBM Tucuman . They have been a joy and a model of how to do ministry , wherever you are . Here are some other members from previous trips who have some experiences to share with you . We hope you enjoy them ! I think Suzie and I were recently married when we went together to Tucuman to share the Gospel to the beautiful people of Argentina . Looking back it was an amazing experience we both shared that set the foundation for our marriage of what it means to make disciples of Christ . Going door to door , sharing matte with complete strangers all while avoiding wild dogs were both exciting and adventurous . We still talk about Tucuman from time to time and would love the opportunity to go back one day for sweet fellowship with fellow brothers and sisters in Tucuman . The Argentina Missions Trips have a very special place in the story of our family . My wife and I essentially met preparing for the 2007 trip , and after both also going on the 2008 trip , we returned on the 2011 trip for the first time as a married couple ! We also took our baby daughter with us when we returned on the 2013 trip . Though we haven 't been able to return since then , the trips have still helped to shape the very core of our family , inside our home and out . Every trip emphasizes the M of Lighthouse 's MVP statement , the fact that the Lord Jesus has called us to make disciples of all nations . Every trip demonstrates the difference between coercing an individual to answer Yes ( or sí , as the case may be ) to a series of questions and the implantation and germination of the seed of God 's word into a person 's very being , that making of a disciple that results in a true follower of Jesus Christ . While these truths drive our planning and execution of the mission trip , they also affect our family 's home life , even in the shepherding and development of our children . Rather than force an insincere confession of faith from them before they understand the truth , we want to trust God with the regeneration of their hearts , and will work to provide an environment that will present the truth of God to them in its fullness and majesty . The trips have also reinforced the idea that missions doesn 't just take place overseas . Perhaps , by definition , missions happen somewhere else , but then the work of missions should not differ much , if at all , from the work of our own church . This idea has anchored our family as well , as we have sought to avoid compartmentalizing the church , and including it as a vital part of our family life instead . During our time in Tucumán , the church would have almost every meal together , and while they certainly meet together more often during our visitation , the principle of community as a platform for ministry drives our family 's willingness to spend time together with the rest of our church body . Even this serves the goal of disciple - making , since those among the family of God minister internally by helping each other grow further in obedience to all of God 's commands . The first time we visited I particularly was very small but I will never forget the joy and the unity that was produced in our congregation . It was beautiful to see how we struggled to communicate , the funny signs and gestures that harmonized an atmosphere of happiness and love between brothers and sisters . Each year we were able to make new friends and even though we do not share a lot of time together , each one of these brothers who came won a place in our hearts . Today I can understand what it means to be part of a missions trip … Sacrifice , time , preparation … that 's why I give thanks to God for each and every one of you ! Without a doubt God used you all greatly in our lives . It 's been a great encouragement and help each year you have visited us , many brothers and sisters who are attending today , are the result of the evangelistic campaigns that we have done together . There are many experiences that God has allowed us to enjoy together and I hope there are many more . You may be unaware of this , but there are a good number of resources related to our Argentina trips over the past 12 years . If you have ever wanted to become familiar with our missions trips to Argentina , especially what we do and what we 've learned , then you 've come to the right place ! Please peruse what we have collected over the years . We hope it will be a blessing ! One of the unique aspects of an LBC missions trip to Argentina is the opportunity for the team members to share the gospel by going door - to - door in the different neighborhoods in Tucuman . In a culture that is very receptive towards family , friends , and visitors entering into homes , Iglesia Biblica Misionera ( Missionary Bible Church ) has taken advantage of this great opportunity to get a foot in the door , literally , to bring the good news of Jesus Christ to all who would hear . We have been blessed to be able to partner with IBM to declare the saving truth of Christ to children , youth , university students , mothers , fathers , Mormons , Jehovah 's Witnesses , Catholics , blue - collar and white - collar workers . When a team of LBC members travel to Tucuman , Pastor Jorge Ahualle , along with the leadership , plan an evangelistic campaign composed of members of IBM , LBC , and translators , who will be sent to a neighborhood for the purpose of going door to door and evangelizing the people there . Past trips have been such an ordeal , that half the team would go to one neighborhood , while the other half will visit a different one . Every neighborhood has a home base , of which one of the members of the church will open their home to prepare for the day 's schedule . Any tracts that are to be passed out , meeting with the entire group for fellowship and prayer , and instructions on where to go happen every day . Each LBC team member will have a translator and a member from IBM to give more details about the regular events at IBM . As we go out , each small group would walk around the block , clapping our hands to get the attention of the residents , and ask if they have a few moments to spare . Sometimes they come out to the gate to hear what we have to say , other times they invite us in and even provide mate ( tea leaves steeped in hot water ) to share with one another . Even in the midst of family life , many are willing and eager to listen to what people from America have come all the way to say . While we tell them what Christ has done here on earth to deal with our sins , many nod in agreement , as if they understand or are familiar with what we are telling them . This can seem encouraging , but many times , it is part of the culture to not offend strangers who enter their homes . Upon returning to the church , we usually eat and spend time with one another for a brief period of time , then spend some time back at our hotel for a nap . This is to prepare for the evening program where we return to the same neighborhood to invite the people to . We will have music , a skit for the children to watch , and a gospel presentation to the crowd . We then stay and try to speak with those who have come and continue the conversation . Any questions they may have , we seek to answer with the Scriptures , which has promised to be sufficient for every good work . Some of you may wonder what effect these door - to - door evangelism campaigns have on the people of Tucuman . The first is the fact that every year , more and more people in these neighborhoods hear the gospel of God 's amazing grace , some for the very first time . Second , many grew up going to the Catholic church , yet never understood why Christ came to die on the cross . They were completely mystified as to the need for a perfect sacrifice , and what that means for everyone today . Parents and children are exposed to where in Scripture God calls all men everywhere to repent , how the death of Christ provides a way of escape from sin and God 's wrath , and how they can have a new way of life in Christ . Third , LBC and IBM members work side - by - side in the fellowship of the gospel . This has solidified some of the friendships between churches , as we have come to be gripped by the same gospel that saved each of us , and now we unite together to proclaim that same truth to others . We embolden one another to call people to lay aside their sin , and to lay hold of Christ as the One who is worth living and dying for . As we continue this partnership , spiritual conversations concerning the day 's events , as well as what we are learning and growing in come to the fore . It becomes easier to talk of spiritual matters when engaged in ministry together . We pray that as we return to Argentina this summer , the Lord would see fit to use His Word to bring about the salvation of many to Christ . We pray that He will use our feeble efforts to make us faithful to the task of making disciples , primarily by supporting Pastor Jorge Ahualle and his family . We also ask to be faithful in the task by working with those who are there full - time to make disciples of Christ in their respective neighborhoods , whether amongst their own neighbors , or within their own families . We have much to look forward to , and hope you will be with us in prayer ! To God be the glory ! Hi ! I currently serve on pastoral staff at LBCSD , overseeing College Life . I have learned so much in my 10 years at LBCSD - coming in as a freshman at UCSD to now serving on pastoral staff . It 's been an incredible journey ! Part of that journey has led me to participate in our short - term missions trips to Argentina , which has continued to develop my theology and passion for evangelism and global missions . This year will be my sixth trip to Argentina with LBCSD ! I 've had the opportunity to build deep relationships with many of the members and leaders at Iglesia Biblica Misionera Tucuman . I look forward to serving , equipping , and edifying IBM Tucuman , and to be a source of refreshment and encouragement to Pastor Jorge and the other leaders . Hello , everyone ! I am husband to Andrea , on staff with Sonlight Ministry and Youth Group Ministry , and am also a Math TA at a non - public middle and high school . I have been a member at LBCSD since 2006 , and have grown in my understanding of the Word and its application ever since . I became involved with LBC missions upon hearing the work this church has done with IBM Tucuman , and thought I could be of service . I do speak Spanish , and have come to embrace LBC 's vision of missions to assist churches in helping fulfill the Great Commission . Growing up , I have always had a strong desire to assist thriving Spanish - speaking churches where the pastor preaches the Bible , and men and women grow in their understanding of the Word , in their Christlikeness , and in their boldness by getting the gospel out to those around them . This will be my seventh trip to Argentina with LBCSD , and I am truly excited to see what God has in store for this trip ! My prayer has always been that God be glorified on every trip , that I do my part to serve those in leadership , and to always be ready to tell , expound , defend , and unashamedly proclaim the gospel to all who will hear . One interesting fact about me is I was on television once in high school as part of the Academic Decathlon team , where I gave a few incorrect answers , but did get one right answer during the competition . Hi , I 've been a part of the Grace Life Ministry for about two and a half years now . I currently teach a high energy , but very sweet and kind , class of 31 fourth graders that keep me on my toes ! Since becoming a member at Lighthouse back in 2009 , I have heard Pastor John Kim describe short - term missions as " doing church somewhere else . " My first trip to Argentina in 2012 helped me understand what Pastor John meant by that . Since that trip , my love for missions and being able to actually physically be present to help other missionaries has continued to grow ! I am so excited and thankful that I can be a part of the team this year ! One interesting fact about me is usually I don 't like bright colors , especially when it comes to my wardrobe . My closet currently has mostly neutral tones of grey , black , navy blue , and beige , except for this one very bright yellow cardigan that my small group gave me for my birthday one year . The girls wanted to help me branch out ! Hello church ! I am currently a graduating senior at UCSD . There isn 't too much to explain or a complicated reason as to why I 'm going on missions this summer . When thinking about our missions teams , I considered supporting through prayer and finances , but then it dawned on me ; why don 't I just physically be a part of the team ? And thus , since I 'm physically able to and have the availability to do so , I will be going for the sake of making disciples of all nations . Hello Church Family ! ! ! For those of you who do not know me , I serve as one of the deacons here at Lighthouse Bible Church , San Diego . I was born and raised in Houston , TX for most of my life , but due to joining the military ( US Navy ) I was deployed and stationed in various parts of the world . Eventually , by God 's design , and definitely not mine , I was stationed here in San Diego where I found out about the church and have been a member since 2006 . Again by God 's grace , in 2008 I met my amazing wife Elaine through the church and got married in December of 2009 . We are overly blessed with 3 rambunctious , fun loving , and social little girls , Charlotte ( 6 ) , Isabel ( 4 ) , and Estella ( 2 ) . Overall I am so thankful for God 's continual grace , and I am so very humbled , honored , and blessed to get to serve His church . In going to Argentina , I greatly hope to faithfully serve the church there , invest in others , counsel , and present the Gospel to the lost . Just as many before me have passed on the torch of Christ and His Word to people around the world , I too hope to pass on the His greatness to those in Argentina . Secondarily , since I was formerly a medical logistics coordinator for the military , and truly have a heart for medical missions , I hope to make contact with local government officials and medical providers in hope to someday collaborate with them in serving the church and community with a medical missions team of our own . I truly look forward to meeting and encouraging the our fellow brothers and sisters in IBM Tucuman . Hi , I 'm a full time evangelist disguised as a Computer Science major at UCSD . My salvation with the Lord started since eternity past when God predestined me for adoption as his son , but it wasn 't until freshman year of high school that I responded to his saving call by faith and repentance . Since then , the Lord has been tremendously faithful to grow me . That being said , I 've wanted to go on overseas missions for a while , but summer internships have kept me busy . As I transition into full time work , God slipped in a couple weeks of down time for me to go to Argentina . As for a fun fact , I tried street preaching at UCSD ! Hello , church family ! I 'm a student graduating this June . At first , I dismissed the idea of going on missions because I thought missions wasn 't for me . When Mr . Mellwig came and I heard his testimony of how people in the Czech Republic have never heard of Jesus , God softened my heart to consider going . The Holy Spirit convicted me of my sinful attitude in brushing off the call to obedience and putting it on others . God provided me with availability and no obligations for the summer , so I applied ( late ) to Argentina ! I 'm so thankful that God has placed this opportunity in my life as I have already been sanctified through the preparations . Please be praying for our team and that God would further his kingdom in Argentina ! For a while , since coming out to Lighthouse , and becoming a member , I 've felt God has given me a desire to go to Argentina , since I am a Spanish - speaking native and have a desire to go on missions . Having interacted with Grace Alcaraz and Andrea Vigil - Ruiz , with their Spanish preparation last year for Argentina , it drew my heart to pray for the possibility of going when asked . So , when asked if I would go this year , God answered my prayer , by setting all things straight and perfectly that I may go on Summer Missions this year . Therefore I tell you , do not be anxious about your life , what you will eat or what you will drink , nor about your body , what you will put on . Is not life more than food , and the body more than clothing ? Look at the birds of the air : they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns , and yet your heavenly Father feeds them . Are you not of more value than they ? I find myself turning to this verse so often in my 10 - plus years of being a Christian because I worry so much about money . Growing up , my parents were not rich or financially stable , so I always worried about how we would pay our household bills , my school activities , medical costs , and college applications . In college , I worried about getting my financial aid check on time to pay for tuition , rent , food , and books . When I started working my first job out of college , I started worrying about saving money for my wedding while living paycheck - to - paycheck , barely making ends meet . God was faithful in all those stages of transition in my life . I had a roof over my head in high school with running water and electricity . I remained healthy without any major illnesses . I applied to , got into , and successfully graduated college with relative ease . I also got married last year to Roger in a beautiful wedding ceremony , a 300 - person guestlist , and a free flight to honeymoon in Denmark , thanks to my work . So with all that God has abundantly provided , what else is there to be anxious about ? In my sinfulness - plenty . I am anxious about advancing my career , the rising costs of rent , paying bills , debt , the future of the Alcaraz family , retirement , the list goes on . Through my conversations with the members of the church in Argentina this July , I realized that these are concerns of people everywhere . We all at some time struggle with the feeling of not having enough , but how do the members of Iglesia Biblica Misionera in Tucuman deal with it ? During the weekend retreat we spent with IBM , the schedule was very open . We had a morning sermon followed by 6 hours of free time to spend however we wanted . I wanted to know the church members better , so I spent my time talking with people . I found out one of the members , we 'll call her C , was not native Argentine , and had actually immigrated from a neighboring country about 10 years ago . I asked C a simple question , " How did you come to Argentina ? " and it spiraled into a 3 - hour long conversation . She told me about her family back in her hometown , how she 'd been working as a nanny since age 12 , and that she moved to Tucuman to take care of a family she worked with from her native country . After her move , she met her husband , J , on the job because he was a chauffeur for the family she was working for . They eventually got married and when they were expecting their daughter , C 's trust in God 's word was put to the test . It was her husband 's conviction through Scripture that when their daughter was born , C would stop working to be a stay - at - home mom . This was a struggle for C , as she had been making her own financial decisions since she was only 12 years old . Suddenly , she felt that she needed to give up her independence and self - sufficiency . She was embarrassed to have to ask her husband for grocery money , something she never had to do before . Her husband only made $ 600 a month , a low wage even by Argentina 's standards . How were they going to raise a family of 3 with $ 600 a month ? Furthermore , she kept reasoning that with a baby on the way , she needed to make as much money as possible to be able to purchase the newest and best baby gear . C 's job situation didn 't change , but her perspective did . Right before C and J 's daughter was born , J 's work had received a large shipment of brand - new , high - quality baby gear donated from Spain . There were durable toys , comfortable clothes , and an expensive stroller included in the shipment that C & J would never be able to afford . J was able to bring that shipment from Spain home for his baby . He didn 't have to pay anything for it or ask for it . It was all just given to them . When their daughter was born , C would run errands using the stroller , and she would get stopped in the streets by interested moms asking , " Where did you get that stroller ? How much did it cost ? " They were so impressed because the quality and craftsmanship was something that wasn 't found in Argentina . Her only response was that it was a gift , a very unexpected gift . The very things C was trying to work so hard for was handed to her by God 's generous provision . That 's when she first learned to trust God and His Word in her family life . C and J 's daughter is six years old now . Ever since C 's career shifted from taking care of other people 's homes to her own home , C told me that they have never felt that they were in want on J 's $ 600 - a - month salary . All their needs have been met , they always have enough to eat , and they are thriving as a family desiring to please the Lord . Their daughter is an affectionate child learning from C 's example as a godly wife and mother . Currently , C is teaching her daughter about humility , specifically to not be boastful and proud when she gets better grades than her classmates . Through my time with C , I saw so much of myself in her story . I saw how I failed to believe in God 's promises and trust in His provision . Whether its family life , my career , housing , or whatever else under the sun there is to worry about , I needed to be reminded that He has blessed me richly . He has provided me with so much already , and there is no reason to doubt that God will continue to be faithful . It 's not everyday a grown man says to me , " I hope you don 't look down on me for sharing that . " It 's even rarer to hear those words in Spanish , but that 's what an IBM church member said to me after sharing his testimony . His story came straight out of a soap opera - full of drugs , violence , and sexual sin , all rolled up into one man . As he shared with me , a complete stranger , his voice became softer and his gaze shifted from me to the open air just to avoid eye contact . I could tell that bringing up the sinful events of his past was embarrassing for him and yet he continued to share about the violence and drugs that enslaved his former life . Most humiliating for him were the times in his life when he was despaired to the point of death . Four times he tried to take his own life and four times , he said , God showed mercy . Being now saved , he looks back on his testimony and wonders why God would ever save him , a sinner . By the end of him sharing , we were both in awe of the power and mercy of God , but I sensed that he felt ashamed of his past . It 's certainly no life I would wish upon anyone , but I told him the beauty of the Gospel is that no matter what a person 's life looks like , the story is the same . I couldn 't help but identify with him , as I 'm sure all believers can , because whether you 're the person who did drugs or the person who grew up in the church , we were all equal sinners before God . What is more , the church needs people who struggled in the fight against drugs , violence , and sex because God says that we 're able to comfort others with the same comfort that we have received from God . Since God comforted and brought hope to a depressed and violent man , this man can then comfort those struggling in ways others can 't by just saying , " God helped me through the same struggle and he can help you . " This member is a necessary part of the body , and in the end , God is the one who put him in and brought him out of his condition . He still struggles with drugs and the chains of its enslavement are hard to break , but it is clear that God is the victor of his story and was at work within him . Now this man seeks to be an example to his children and lovingly raise them in the church so they can hear God 's word and follow him from a young age . He hopes they would never make the same mistakes as he did , so he entrusts them to God . Encouraged by all this , we gave glory to God in prayer as we thanked him for the salvation that is by grace alone through faith alone . Amen . Someone asked me a few days ago if our family would have done it all again if we knew that our daughter Charis would get so ill . ( She caught some nasty stomach flu , possibly on the plane traveling to Argentina which wiped her out for the majority of our time in Argentina . Ryan and I both got sick towards the end of the trip too . ) So I stood there , still feeling weak from the bug I had , thinking for a while how to respond . And as tears started to fill my eyes , the only reply that was truthful was … " Of course " . Their response was a look of surprise , because I had just described how scared I was , trying to take care of a constantly vomiting baby for a few days who looked like she was going to pass out from dehydration ( in a foreign country , mind you ) . But , honestly , Ryan and I would have done it all again . Why ? Because we love the Iglesia Biblica Misionera ( IBM ) church family in Tucuman , Argentina as if they were our own family . We desire to encourage them to love Christ and live for Him more and more , whatever the cost . We recognize the great need IBM has for fellowship and encouragement from other like - minded churches , which is rare in Argentina . Though I was out of commission for a good chunk of the trip to take care of Charis , which is my main responsibility ( and joy ) no matter where I am , God provided some conversations and pockets of time to spend with some of the church ladies of all ages and stages of life . In particular , I was looking forward to encouraging the youth and single gals of the church through one - on - one conversations and a time of teaching on various topics like beauty in God 's eyes , finding identity and security in Christ ( and not Prince Charming ) , and God 's design for marriage and the role of a wife . By God 's grace , He provided opportunities to chat with a few gals and teach the youth and single ladies as a group one of the evening sessions when Charis was not throwing up . Though it was difficult for me personally to battle feelings of discouragement and being so distracted with concern for Charis ' health , God used one conversation in particular with an older mom of the church at the beginning of the trip to , in a sense , prepare me for the unforeseen challenges . For the past seven years , God has given me a special relationship with a particular mother at the church . From my first conversation with her in 2007 , she poured out her life to me . Raising three children as a single mom , working long hours to provide financially , and trying to serve at church as well ( though never as much as she wanted to ) . She longed for various family members , who wanted nothing to do with God and His gospel , to see the beauty of Christ . I would listen and weep silently with her as she would share about her daughter , around my age , who year after year indulged in a life full of sin and pleasures of this world . I remember receiving a letter from her last year , with nothing more than a plea to keep praying for her family , especially her daughter . When I saw her at the beginning of this trip , she pulled me aside as I was rocking Charis to sleep , and her countenance had changed … There was light in her eyes and an indescribable joy and peace . With tears streaming down her face , she began to update me on her life . God answered years and years of unceasing prayers - her sister 's and daughter 's heart softening toward God , different work hours to be at home with her sons more , closer relationship with her younger son , godly growth in her older son . But the greatest change had happened in her heart and perspective . She learned to let go of her desire to control her family 's life and not get so discouraged at her perceived failures in her various roles . She learned to trust in God with humble dependence daily . She learned to delight in Christ , and let His love compel her to persevere as His servant in any circumstance . As much as I had hoped to encourage her , she then proceeded to exhort me as a young mom . She knows me pretty well , having physically seen me at my various life stages . Perhaps she could sense my insecurities as a first time mom ? It 's true , from time to time I have found myself struggling to balance my roles as a wife , mom , daughter , sister , friend , etc . , to point them all to Christ as much as I can , with joy and peace instead of discontentment and guilt . Of all the things she could have told me , I 'm so thankful that she reminded me to pray and trust God in all my God - given roles . She learned from years of experience that she can not control people nor circumstances , but instead humbly depend on God for help and trust He does all for our good and His glory . Funny thing was , these were truths my own parents have reminded me time and time again for as long as I can remember . They caution me against finding my worth and righteousness in my works , and instead to fear and worship Him , seeking to faithfully and humbly obey His commands out of love and gratefulness for the Cross . So , this mom jogged my memory of my own primary disciplers ' ( my parents ) wise counsels to me ! And she specifically encouraged me to invest in Charis with my time and to cover her in prayers , trusting that God has our children in His grasp . It was at this moment our conversation abruptly ended as Charis awoke , and just from looking into her eyes , I knew that something was not right . As I took her out of the stroller , she vomited all over me , and thus began the next few days of intense illness for Charis . I thanked God for His grace to provide this timely heart to heart with this dear sister , whose example to me of submitting to God 's will and being faithful to pray unceasingly for her family saved me from utter discouragement and despair in the days to come , especially when I feared for Charis ' life . Though I still struggled in my heart a lot as her condition got worse , God 's truths I gleaned from this small conversation stuck with me , and I begged God to help me believe them . Some might say the trip was not worth it , for me and Charis to go , if I spent so much time taking care of Charis instead of with the church family . It 's true , I personally talked to fewer ladies this time than previous trips . But I really did desire to encourage them as much as possible . Proverbs 16 : 9 reminds me that " the heart of man plans his way , but the Lord establishes his steps . " As much as I tried to prepare Charis for weeks before leaving ( practicing sleeping in a portable tent and a baby carrier , packing a lot of packaged baby foods ) and keep her away from germs , she still didn 't sleep well and got sick . As much as I wanted to spend time talking to the IBM ladies , my daughter needed my care and attention . In this season of my life , God has called me to be a wife and mom , leaning completely on Him for grace and strength . Realistically , ministry to others looks different now than the time before my daughter came . I am learning that this doesn 't mean I am less effective in ministering to others . Sure , on some days , I am home with Charis , making and feeding her meals , wiping her runny nose , singing and dancing , examining the details of a flower with her , reminding her to obey me , or holding her tightly after a fall . I pray that Charis , my life - long disciple , would see Christ in all these " little " things on these days . It was our family 's joy to go to Argentina this summer to minister to IBM church . We hope to go again for the sake of encouraging fellow believers and dear friends . But for now , I seek to live each day in humble trust and dependence on God , as I look to love Ryan and Charis and others . Leading to this decision , we had to decide to leave the church at our meeting site and venture to the doctor 's office and then the hospital at ten at night . We had to decide to leave because we had decided to re - join the church earlier in the evening after deciding in the morning that my wife and sick baby should stay at the hotel to rest . In addition to all of that , we had decided to take this trip in the first place . So , who should receive the blame for the circumstances in which we found ourselves ? Do I blame the baby for her weakness ? Do I blame my wife for her strong desire to re - join the church for that final meeting ? Do I blame the team for pushing us physically ? Do I blame Argentina for its unsanitary environment ? Do I blame God ? I struggled throughout the trip with my desire to assign blame as a result of our difficulties . Bags too heavy ? Why did my wife have to pack so much ? ( I could have told her that we needed to pack less [ and then helped her ! ] beforehand . ) Baby not sleeping well ? Why didn 't the leaders schedule more breaks ? ( Solely by virtue of joining the team , we knew this would probably happen . ) Even in my life here , I battle with the same train of thinking . Running late ? Why did my co - worker have to start talking with me as I was leaving ? ( I could have politely excused myself [ or impolitely , and then have other consequences with which to contend ] or have prepared to leave earlier to account for things like this . ) Feeling spiritual disconnect within the family ? Why do other people have so many activities and demand so much of my time ? ( If I really value our spiritual lives , then I can step away from other activities that interfere with that time . ) In every case , I have the option of blaming others or accepting responsibility for the present state . But , why should I accept responsibility ? To answer this , we can start with the first human , Adam . Eve ate from the tree , gave some to Adam , and then God asked Adam to explain himself . Adam attempts to absolve himself completely when he responds , The woman whom you gave to be with me , she gave me fruit of the tree , and I ate . ( Genesis 3 : 12 ) He implies that Eve made him eat , but he even also adds a subtle jab at God with the sneaky reminder that God gave him this irresistible temptress . I need to resist the temptation to blame Adam for my tendency to blame others here , but let 's just say that I fail in good company . So , what does God do ? Does God tell Adam , Oh , you 're right ! Eve , I 'm holding you responsible for this whole mess , and Adam , I 'm sorry for giving her to you . No ! God holds Adam responsible not just for eating the apple by himself , but for allowing Eve to eat as well ! Solomon saw this attitude enough to pen a proverb about it . Proverbs 19 : 3 says When a man 's folly brings his way to ruin , his heart rages against the Lord . This cuts straight to the point . If I believe God is sovereign ( and I do ) , any blame I point outside of myself will inevitably rest on God . But , Solomon clearly places the blame on the man . Even to come to Christ , one of the first steps involves taking responsibility for your own sin , and realizing that you do deserve condemnation for it . The beauty of the gospel is that Christ took the punishment the sinner rightfully deserved and that God doesn 't hold that sinner responsible any more ! This incredible reversal leads to incredible gratitude precisely because that forgiven sinner understands the magnitude of his responsibility before Christ took it . All throughout the Bible , God holds man responsible for his sin and the decisions that he makes . And yet , I see in my heart , and all around me in the world this attitude of self - victimization and evasion of responsibility . Throughout my time as the head of my own family , I 've struggled ( and grown , thanks to God ) in this area , and our time in Argentina helped me reflect even more on this truth as I had to confront my own thoughts in various circumstances there . But secondly , and probably more importantly , God has called men to lead , whether in the home or in the church , and people have all sorts of ideas about how leadership looks ( or ideas about manliness ) . Some of these ideas come from the Bible ; many do not . But , I can confidently say that the idea of handling responsibility does come from the Bible , and that many young men pursuing manliness overlook this aspect of leadership . To conclude the story , I authorized the doctor to inject my daughter . They also prescribed her some medicine to quell her vomiting , which worked for the remainder of the trip . The church and translators showed us much hospitality , even in the sixteen hours between the hospital visit and our plane flight to leave . We were able to return home safely , and have no regrets about choosing to take the trip . One of the greatest joys for me personally when I visit Tucuman is simply sitting with Pastor Jorge and talking with him about ministry . I suppose it 's easy to adopt a mentality that we are going to Argentina to teach the Argentines about ministry and the Bible . But when I sit with Pastor Jorge , I realize that I am in the company of someone who has years of experience in a ministry environment that is arguably much more difficult . Every time I have visited Tucuman I have gained a wealth of wisdom listening to his " war stories . " Besides the value of the insights that I receive , I am grateful for the camaraderie and fellowship we enjoy in the Lord . One year , we sat out on the church patio together with a guitar and took turns singing songs of praise . Neither of us knew what the other was singing , but it didn 't matter because we were singing to the Lord . This year , our team was invited to Pastor Jorge and Norma 's house for lunch . This has become somewhat of an annual tradition to go over and enjoy a hearty beef rib BBQ out on his front lawn . The food is great but the company is better . It is such a blessing to spend a day with the Ahualles , to see them interact as a family and to benefit from their warm hospitality . Even through an afternoon of relaxation and hanging out , I am challenged by their example of hospitality and love . One of the goals our team has on our summer trips is to be a blessing to the church leaders in Tucuman . Pastor Jorge and the leadership team of IBM Tucuman work tirelessly to minister to their church family and the surrounding barrios . The community where they reside is riddled with drug use , physical abuse and violence , drunkenness , and even murder . Meeting with people to address issues of the heart is constantly exhausting and the leaders there have to carry the burdens of the people with them . I 'm sure at times it is easy to become discouraged . Pastor Jorge has shared on a number of occasions that it is particularly difficult when church members seek to hurt and attack . I 'll never forget his helpful illustration - It 's always more bearable to suffer the bite of a wolf because you know that the wolf is out to hurt you , but the bite of a sheep is especially painful because you never expect one of your sheep to bite you . It isn 't even just with Pastor Jorge but with the other leaders as well . Beto Barrionuevo has become a dear friend over the years , and I have really come to appreciate the conversations we have had about ministry as well . I 'm struck by his humility as he asks me for advice about certain ministry issues . Like Pastor Jorge , he is older than I am with many more years of experience . But he is eager to grow and learn . He loves the church and wants it to be as strong as possible , but also confesses that at times it is extremely difficult . When we go to Argentina , we make it a point to encourage these leaders in any way we can . We support them financially , provide books and resources , and bring them gifts for their family . We want them to know that there is a church on the opposite hemisphere who cares and is praying for them . I know how difficult and disheartening ministry can be and how much these men can sometimes feel like they are on an island to fend for themselves . The relationships we have built over the years have been a tremendous blessing and joy , and the trust that has developed between us has been equally strong . This year , when we left Tucuman and arrived in Buenos Aires , we were taken to the pastoral training center that was established by Eduardo and Matias Buldain . The center is actually located at their home in San Justo , about a half hour drive outside the city center . About six young men were there to take an exam and Eduardo asked if I would be willing to share a devotional with them in the morning . Understanding how these men were being invested in and the kind of training they were receiving really encouraged me . I was thrilled to hear that one of the classes they would be taking was on expository preaching because there is such a dearth of good preaching in Argentina . It was a huge privilege to address these men and encourage them from the Word . What was especially neat was that one of them was a member from the church in Tucuman studying to enter pastoral ministry . All this reminded me of one of the major reasons for our return each summer . This nation is starving for the gospel and solid biblical truth and there are a handful of faithful men seeking to minister to the people there . We have such an awesome opportunity to be a part of it even in a small way . We can encourage these leaders to press on in the work and to be faithful to their calling . Praise God for this wonderful opportunity ! If you have been at Lighthouse Bible Church for any length of time , you might have heard missions described as " ' doing church ' somewhere else . " To briefly explain , the believer 's mission is to make disciples of Christ through the vehicle of the local church because of love for God and love for people ( cf . Matt . 16 : 18 ; 22 : 37 - 40 ; 28 : 18 - 20 ; Acts 1 : 8 ) ; this mission ought to be the focal point for all believers everywhere . Thus , what we seek to accomplish here in San Diego we seek to accomplish on our missions trips - " doing church " somewhere else . Indeed , it truly is a special opportunity and an amazing experience for a church to send its members to meet a church in another hemisphere for the sake of the Kingdom of God . Still , overseas disciple making presents some unique obstacles ; one in particular is the language barrier . For many southern Californians , proficient fluency in a second or third language may be uncommon . While many of my peers ( myself included ) studied Spanish in high school , their language skills have since then deteriorated . For our missions trips to Tucuman , Argentina , a portion of our financial support goes toward translators ' transportation , meals , and so on . In previous trips , there was need for a 1 : 1 missionary to translator ratio in conducting an evangelism campaign with Iglesia Biblica Misionera ( Missionary Bible Church , or IBM ) in Tucuman . This year , the team focused on encouraging and teaching the members of IBM , which required fewer translators . Nevertheless , the translators were an integral part of our ministry to and relationship with IBM . Here are the main translators for the 2013 Argentina missions team : I had the privilege of getting to know new translators and catching up with old ones ; some are part of the church ( i . e . Pablo ) , some returned to visit and made themselves available to us ( i . e . Wanda ) ; and some were completely new to IBM ( i . e . Martín , Florencia , Daniela ) . These translators volunteered and graciously served us . They each have different backgrounds , different experiences , different gifts , but all supported our team 's goal of encouraging , discipling , and serving IBM . Translating is incredibly difficult and draining ! Martín and Pablo translated our main messages - between Pastor Patrick , Roger , and me , we preached 10 times . Pablo and Daniela helped me with a children 's program ; Martín , Florencia , and Wanda helped me in my personal interactions and conversations with church members . I was thoroughly encouraged by their servant 's attitude . Praise God for how He brings together different members of the body of Christ to further His Kingdom ! While my focus and ministry were aimed at IBM , I had the opportunity to encourage and serve some of our translators . Knowing my background in TESOL and experiences with international students , Pablo , Daniela , and I talked about English language education in Argentina and how it can be a means of ministry both inside and outside the church . Perhaps the highlight of my time with the translators is exchanging testimonies of how God graciously saved us . The testimony of God 's saving grace to Florencia ( shared with permission ) : her brother , Martín was saved first from her family at a Christian camp . Over time , their whole family eventually began going to church . Florencia remembers attending church since she was nine years old . However , she shared that she was saved when she was 14 years old , two years ago . She was walking to school early one morning when a van suddenly pulled up to her . She was pushed into the van and kidnapped ! Her kidnappers began asking her a series of questions and eventually learned that they kidnapped the wrong person . During that time , Florencia thought , " If I were to die , what would happen to me ? " She prayed to God and trusted Him with her life . Shockingly , the kidnappers let her go . She found the church that she used to attend nearby and was taken to school where she met with school officials , her parents , and the police . Her attitude towards life now has completely changed . She shares that despite any circumstances , even life threatening events , she always has hope in Christ 's death and resurrection . Now , she seeks to love Christ more and serve Him in everything she does . It is incredible to witness God 's work in another person 's life and to be blessed by the fruit that is bore . It is a privilege to serve alongside another member of Christ 's body for the furthering of His Kingdom purposes . It is a blessing to encourage and edify other parts of the body , even unexpected parts not usually connected to the local body of IBM . Let us pray for these translators - for their faith and ministry - who helped us " do church " somewhere else . The Beacon is the online newsletter for Lighthouse Bible Church in San Diego , California . It covers a variety of subjects including LBC events , church history , current events from a Christian perspective , ministry profiles , and messages from our pastors and elders . To join the Beacon ministry , please contact Stephen Rodgers .

Change starts within and it 's how we can reach to others the possibilities of a better life . It 's a CHOICE to embrace our everyday struggles , one day at a time . I 'm on a journey of reaching within to make the changes my heart desires and by doing so , I want to reach to the lost , broken and abused . Life goes on and so do we ! Monthly Archives : June 2013 30Jun2013 Determination Posted in Present and Hopefully Future by Bella Chela As previously stated ; I will be getting my Bachelor of Social Work in the Spring of 2015 which my goal was to have it by the time I 'm 34 , something I will be able to accomplish . I will be attending UTA for a dual Masters ' in Social Work and Public Administration and giving myself 2 years for that . I will then continue to pursue my Ph . D . in International Social Work , I have yet to know which school I will attend ; in hopes that I 'm done with that by the time I 'm 40 . I currently work two full time jobs . One consists of 40hrs a week working the graveyard shift and the other consists of 36hrs a week working the day shift . I don 't have a day off at all . It 's been a few weeks since I took time off my day job so I can focus on my classes but will be returning soon . For the summer I 'm taking 18 credit hours which consist of six classes . You might ask if I sleep . I do , I get to nap two hours a day and that 's all . How can I function ? I honestly don 't know . I just have the drive to continue to stay determined and focused and keep my eyes on my goals . I also have a goal to be able to save at least 20k by the time I get my bachelor 's degree and purchase a home somewhere in TX . I don 't know where yet because it depends where the road leads with the man I 'm in love with . I plan to include him in all my future endeavors , but it just all depends on him and what he 'd like to do , and where our friendship / relationship goes . I 'm the type of woman that takes the bull by the horns and handles business . I don 't wait around for anyone to do anything for me and I don 't depend on anyone for anything . I 've been this way since I was 13 years old . I think this was an issue in my marriage because when I would ask my ex - husband to do something he 'd wait until he felt like doing it ; so , I 'd do it on my own . Whether it was helping our handyman put in new kitchen cabinets in our home or paint the whole inside of the house . I just took action and still do . I started working at the age of 13 to help support my family . I 've literally been working 19 years total . I remember when I started working at the day care I would bring home 100 $ a week ; I 'd keep 20 $ and give my dad the rest . My mother became extremely ill and became disabled , unable to help my father with bills . So , I took the initiative to help . My brothers got to do the sports things and enjoy a childhood . I don 't I ever really remember enjoying a childhood . I mean , I don 't sob about it . I 'm 32 for crying out loud . I sure as hell don 't wish to go back in time . I also don 't regret anything in my life . I think people go through certain things to be able to help others ' in the future . The first impression most people get from me is that I 'm a b * * * h . But , I 'm not ; I can be if I have to . Only when I 'm defending those I care about or someone messes with me . But , for the most part , I 'm mellow , down to earth , a good woman , loving , sincere and genuine . Again , I don 't dilly dally around anything . I call it like I see it . Some people take that as being blunt , but only sometimes . I just don 't sugar coat anything because I don 't see a need for that . I think people need to know straight up whatever the issue is . Why sugar coat anything ? I don 't get it . I 'm determined to keep pushing forward no matter what peeks and valleys I have to go through . I can do all things through Christ and what I set my mind to , with of course the help of God . Only He gives me the strength to be able to have so much energy and make it day in and day out . All the glory be to God . 30Jun2013 Do you know pain ? Posted in Present and Hopefully Future by Bella Chela Do you know the pain of emotionless parents ? Do you know the pain of being robbed your innocence ? Do you know the pain of heart - break ? Of physical pain ? Of Psychological pain ? I do . I 've known this pain from the age of 5 up until recently I would say up until I turned 30 years old ; where I decided I would no longer allow it to rob my happiness . That 's 25 years of pain ; from all sorts of sources . But , somehow I 've been able to stand strong . This amazes me even . Why ? Because , I 'm only 32 years old and I can relate to peoples ' pain within their hearts and whatever they are faced with . I can feel what people are faced with and that 's what brings tears to my eyes . Not the fact of what I 've been through , because I 've mended all my wounds ; but what other people I encounter have to deal with and them not knowing how to handle it . I 've been dealt a serious of trials and tribulations through out my life . But you know how I 've survived it ? I know this will sound crazy ; but by giving of myself ; by volunteering at a hospice clinic , at a pre - kindergarten , at a convalescent home ; at child protective services and now soon to volunteer at American Red Cross and Mosaic . I 'm excited to announce I will be an international case worker for the American Red Cross and teaching English as a Second Language to victims of Human Trafficking and Refugees . This literally brings happiness and joy to my heart . Because , I will be able to inspire others with my life story . I will be able to give them hope and show them love . I will be able to help victims of all sorts to rise above their situation . I will be selfless and continue to give of myself . But , this can only be done by the Grace of God . For many years I wanted to be an R . N . but I kept lagging it in taking the courses ; I would take one here and there . It 's not until 2 years ago where I decided to change my career because of a life event I had to deal with and I was given the revelation that I was choosing the wrong career . I changed my career from nursing to Social Work . I will be getting my Bachelor of Social Work by spring of 2015 . I will then attend UTA and obtain a dual Master 's in Social Work and Public Administration . From there I will continue to pursue my degree and obtain my Ph . D . in International Social Work and work with the United Nations Chapter here in Dallas and work with Victims of Human Trafficking and Refugees . This is my ultimate life goal . I might be 40 years old by the time I finish my educational goals , but it 's ok . There 's no rush . School will always be there . My fear and question is will I be able to have it all , a husband , kids , and my career ? Only Lord knows what 's really in store for me . But I will keep pushing forward until He says I 'm done with my education . Although I 've been through a lot of pain , God has been there for me . Don 't get me wrong , I 've been upset with Him for allowing me to go through certain things in life , but no matter what He 's been there for me and has accepted and loved me unconditionally . Something I 've come to terms with just a year ago . If you deal with pain and don 't know how to handle it , I will be all eyes and ears for you . You can talk to me via email anytime at just . writing @ hotmail . com I can give you words of encouragement or solutions to your issue . Another thing about me is I don 't take no for an answer . I will always find the yes in the million no 's I get . 29Jun2013 G . GLOW Posted in Present and Hopefully Future by Bella Chela I 've been feeling great this past week except for one day . I felt like what 's the point of working so hard to have so many challenges , trials and tribulations ? I mean really ? What outcome does God expect from me ? Does he expect me to keep pushing forward or quit and go back to the miserable life I used to live ? I don 't know if He just keeps teaching me a lesson or what . He knows I can handle what He puts in my path , so why keep going through this ? But , then I realized that this is life ; full of trials and tribulations - it 's how we learn to live a rich God given life . My room - mate said I looked good ; that there 's this glow to me . I came to work and chilled at the cafeteria because I was early an hour and studied for a bit . A house - keeping lady said I looked beautiful and she almost didn 't recognize me because there 's this glow to me . And , my co - worker said I 'm shining like a star . Well , I figured three people have said I have a glow , guess I 'm calling it the G . Glow ! LOL . I find that so funny ! My response was maybe its love , who knows ? ! Only God knows ! But , yes , I 'm in Love ( sigh ) . Maybe that 's why I feel like I 'm on cloud number 9 . I just hope I don 't fall hard ; which is my main concern . But , I 'm going with the flow and taking this one day at a time . We can 't possibly rush into anything with our busy and hectic schedules . If this is meant to be it will find a way to work itself out , whether we can only spend a few hours together or just a weekend a month ; as long as we get some quality time together , it 's what matters to me the most . Whatever the case , as long as we both try . I think that 's what counts the most , that we both put an effort into this new found love . I text my best friend and shared with her everything that 's been going on in my life and the revelation I received from God . Her response was " Finally ! " I can agree with her ! This is a new feeling that I 've never experienced and I love it . She also said " You deserve someone in your life that will love and care for you like never before . " We 'll see what the stars have in store for us . I 'm suppose to be working yet here I am writing this blog regarding my G . Glow ! I can 't stop laughing . Yes , I 'm random like that ! ! 28Jun2013 Expressions from my Heart Posted in Present and Hopefully Future by Bella Chela Do you know what Love is ? In my opinion , God is Love . I 've experienced His Love for me and He 's allowed me to learn to love again . I 'll explain in just a bit , but first I got to go back to when I was married and what I thought was love . I was with my ex - husband 2 ½ years before we decided to get married and then we were married 2 ½ years ; totaling 5 years together . He was actually my first date , kiss , and boyfriend . I lost my virginity to him when I was 22 years old . I 've come to realize that what I thought was love was just a relationship based off of sex from the get go ; it was lust . Did I love him , well yes of course , I felt some sort of best friend kind of love for him . But , I wasn 't in - love with him . Sadly , I realized that when we were together four years , but I still continued in the relationship . We had a regular relationship with highs and lows . Mostly lows , but we stuck whatever we faced together . The problem was his mother . She created a lot of havoc in our relationship and it would urck the fuck out of me when he would not give me my place as his wife and defend me . I defended him against my family regardless . Why ? Because he was my husband and no matter what he deserved some respect from my family . His mother was one of the many reasons why our relationship didn 't work out . Then , there was the part where he cheated on me a month after celebrating five years together . What the fuck is that ? I mean really ? If he wanted out , he could 've just been open and honest and said so . I found this all out after we were separated . I remember him saying that we both needed to go our separate ways and that he didn 't have the heart to tell me why . My reaction was tears , a heart - break and the statement of " if you don 't have the heart , at least have the balls to tell me the truth . " He said he couldn 't . We went our separate ways and I never saw him again . You see , I 'm a genuine person . I call it like I seI moved to Texas and began a new life , although as previously stated in a previous blog ; my first year was very challenging . But , I 've been able to settle down and have a good life ; albeit , with many challenges , trials and tribulations , but , I keep pushing forward . I was encouraged by a co - worker to date off of the website POF . I wasn 't too sure , but after much thought decided , what the heck . I created a profile and within a week I met a few guys and went on dates . Then , there he was . I met someone else ; we went on our first date and hit it off . We 've seen each other on and off since . But , I have feelings for him . What I feel for him is nothing compared to how I felt when I was married , this feeling is different . It 's a great feeling . While reading scriptures the other morning God gave me a message and said to let go and lower the barriers I 've built around my heart . So , just simply like that , I did . And , do you know how I feel ? I feel very vulnerable and unprotected . But , if this is what God said to do , I 'm doing it with hopes that something wonderful and beautiful will flourish . The title of my blog is Expressions from my heart . Well I 'm going to give you the expressions of my heart right now . I 've fallen for the man I met back in August . I 've shared with him that I like him a lot but there are times where I 'm scared he might not reciprocate the same feelings . God said it would all be ok . So , here goes . I feel true love for this man . I want to love and care for him . I want to spend sleepless nights talking and getting to know each other . I want to be able to hang out with him at a football or basketball game . I want to get to know his little girl and have the opportunity of the three of us hanging out . I want to be held by him at night and feel his love and protection . I want to be able to wish him a good day in the morning and kiss him goodnight at bedtime . I want a relationship with him based off a good friendship , honesty , respect , effective communication and loyalty . There are many other things I 'd love to have with him , but the above mentioned are what is important to me . A few months ago , I shared with him that he had my heart and he couldn 't understand why if we barely know each other . And , I can 't answer that . He simply has my heart whether we 've known each other a few months or whether it 's been years , he sincerely has my heart and I 'm in love with him . There I said it . I 'm in love with him . He has a beautiful soul , great eyes and a great smile . I don 't know that if I were to tell him how my heart feels for him if he 'd think I was crazy or run . And it 's ok if he does either of the two . Love is and makes you do crazy things , like write this blog for everyone to know how I feel for this man . He makes my day when I hear from him and makes my heart smile . 25Jun2013 I found myself ! Posted in Present and Hopefully Future by Bella Chela I 'm going to go back as far as 3 years ago . I was feeling lost ( like most times ) and desperate for something else out of life . I couldn 't understand why I felt so empty and dissatisfied with the life I was leading . Although , I was actively engaged in church ; volunteering ; bible studies 2 nights a week ; school part time and working full time graveyard shift . I was still empty . I was drowning in the needs and wants of my family and putting my own needs aside . I entrusted in a friend how badly I would do anything to move to TX . I didn 't know what area I 'd move to , the only somewhat familiar city was San Antonio , TX ; where I currently have family . But , I wanted to be away from all family members . I wanted to be alone and by myself without feeling like I was carrying a burden on my shoulders . All my life I 've been a worry warrior always doing for others and putting my needs and desires on the back burner . Well , I was tired of it . Although , I didn 't express this openly except to the woman whom was my mentor back in the day . She encouraged me to try and apply at TWU and pray that I would be accepted . I was very hesitant about being accepted . But , two months later I received the acceptance letter and was being accepted into the school with a 3 . 0 GPA . I was ECSTATIC ! ! Never in my right mind did I think I would be at a University level , but here I was and my acceptance letter . Time came around to share with my dad that I was accepted and that I would be moving in August . He wasn 't happy for the news nor did he congratulate me of my acceptance . This was HUGE to me ! ! I mean coming from my background this was a huge milestone in my life . I was 29 years old and a freshman at a University ! I kind of got bummed that I was so old , but then again , I lived my life in reserve ; by getting married at a young age and doing the wifely thing and having things not work out and again feeling lost and helpless with my life . But then I met my mentor . I was training her at work and we got to know each other on a personal level and she became my life coach , per say . She prayed over me on a daily basis . Any who , back to school . I had a meeting with an Adviser and a tour of the campus . That summer of 2010 my family and I came out to San Antonio to my baby cousin 's high school graduation . I asked my father to lend me the expo and he said I needed to figure out another way to get to Denton ; that he wouldn 't lend me his car . So I tried getting a flight and even taking the train but there was all these time constraints and not working out with the schedule I needed to keep for the next day with the Adviser . So , I rented a car . Of course my father was upset that I 'd actually found a solution and he actually prayed out loud that I didn 't get the rental , but much to his dismay the guy at Enterprise helped me out . I explained the situation and he got me hooked up . It was 10pm the night before the drive to Denton and I was feeling super proud of myself for finding a solution ( like always ) I 'm pretty resourceful and don 't take no for an answer at all . I always try and find a yes in every situation . So I try and sleep and all I can think about is TWU and Denton and being far from my family . I got up at 230am , showered , dressed and hit the road . At this time , I had my puppy tun - tun whom was only 2 months old and still feeding him solution and my dad said I needed to take him with me , well , I didn 't want to but I did . He rode with me - that 's why I think Tun - Tun is so darn faithful . Back to the story , I arrived to Denton exactly at 830am ; it was a 6 hour drive . I went and got breakfast and waited patiently for 930am to roll around and it finally did . I had so many questions scrambled in my head to ask my advisor and things regarding financial aid what I needed to do , bring , show proof of … . oh so so many things and yet again I felt empty because my family has never been there for me to celebrate the milestones of my life , but I guess you kind of get used to it . So 330pm comes around and I 'm on my way back to San Antonio , I actually took a 2 hour nap by the park next to campus because I was exhausted and I hadn 't slept the night before because of all the anxiety I was facing . I get to San Antonio and my dad is pissed the Fuck off with me for no reason other than me wanting a better future for myself . I ignored him , best thing to do when he has his phases of jealousy . Well I didn 't tell them anything about my trip other than everything went well . It was itching him to know exactly what went down , but I was not going to share all the positive and encouraging support I received from school . So I kept it to myself . August comes around and I start selling every piece of furniture , stove , refrigerator , items I no longer needed to raise money for my trip . I cash out my retirement fund but had to wait 30 days before I could receive it . With my sales and saving a lil money here and there I had 3000 $ enough to get an apartment and hold me out for 2 months . Well , again , I put my family 's needs first and set myself on the back burner . My family needed financial help and I literally spent all my money from my sales on them except for 200 $ the day I left California I only had $ 200 in my pocket enough for only gas to get me to San Antonio because I was going to spend 2 weeks with family there and then head out to Denton . Well , the day I left my dad was pissed and gave me $ 60 dollars and my mom packed some snacks , water & juice . I used to own a 2007 Toyota corolla that I worked so hard to obtain - and it was jammed packed with over 150 books that I own , my clothes and my desktop oh yea and my two dogs , Cocoa and Tuntun . I leave California about 4pm and drove 30 hours straight without stopping except for gas and the potty for the dogs and myself . 30 hours on the highway by myself and the little belongings that I had . When I get to Arizona I get anxiety and start to doubt that I 'd made the right decision . I almost came back home , but I kept driving forward ; which forward was the only way . On occasions I got the phone call from my parents . I arrived in San Antonio around midnight of the next day , exhausted and sleepy . I didn 't even stop to sleep anywhere except at a rest area I took a 20 minute nap but felt uncomfortable because it was really dark and the dogs kept barking . So I got up and drove off . I spent two weeks in San Antonio soaking up the sun and chillin ' with my family . The day came when I had to depart and head out to Denton . Granted I had no funds except like 140 $ left in my pocket . I had found an apartment and arranged to move in a day before orientation . Well I arrive to Denton exactly at 530pm before the apartment complex closes and the manager was actually waiting for me so I signed the lease get the keys and start unloading my car . A neighbor was nice enough to help me , any who . I didn 't give one cent , I hadn 't mentioned anything about the rent or deposit because I needed to buy time in order to get my retirement fund which was about 6000 $ I had saved in 3 years through my employer - not bad kiddo ! Ja ! So a week goes by and the manager finally calls me and says she hadn 't realized that I hadn 't given her the deposit and rent and I said oh my word I hadn 't either . That there was a God thing . So I wait two more days and I get my retirement fund and pay them the deposit and rent . Time has gone by and I 've gone through some highs and lows . I couldn 't find a job for almost a fucking year and not even part time at that . I had to pay out of pocket for my tuition until I went to the Vice President of Student Life and sobbed my story to her in parts because I couldn 't take the stress anymore and the doubts that ran through my head that maybe I 'd made a huge mistake . But , I didn 't . I was just facing trials and tribulations , God had to make sure I was worthy of His blessings . Ms . Quinones gets me some help and two grants which waived the out of state tuition and I get about 8k in refunds which holds me up for another six months . By this time I 'd found a part time job being an assistant to the Executive Director at a counseling center ; that job is what saved me . Well the month of May comes around and I lose my car because I hadn 't paid it in three months - I was up to date with everything else but I sacrificed my car because I would 've preferred to pay electricity rather than a car note . On Cinco de Mayo as soon as I get home from work a tow truck pulls up and takes my car . The guy was nice enough to let me take my things out , but I left a Light Purple Care Bear in the back seat which I 've had since 1989 and I lost it . I think I was more hurt about my care bear than my car . A car is something replaceable but something from your childhood isn 't . I share this because I want people to know that no matter what you 're faced with , you can rise above it all by being persistent and keeping your eyes on the prize , in my case my prize is my degree . And no matter how many times I 've moved for whatever reason , the material things I 've lost I haven 't lost myself . I actually found myself and have been humbled by God in accepting what He gives me . I hope you find my journey encouraging in some way .

I wanted to write to congratulate you on the success of your evening reception on September 18 , and to commend your work to raise awareness of spinal muscular atrophy ( SMA ) through the SMASHSMA campaign . I know many MPs and supporters ( myself included ) were moved to hear the story of your daughter Estella . I was also impressed to read your blog setting out the successes of your campaign , and wish you every success in the future on campaigning on what is an important issue . I am the Minister responsible for policy relating to long term conditions , and following your reception , I asked my officials to investigate the possibility of setting up a screening programme for those who might want to be tested for SMA The review will take the form of a PUBLIC CONSULTATION in the new year . More details of the consultation will come through next year . In the meantime any person or organisation wanting more details can look at www . screening . nhs . uk 4 ) Above all it means that as 2012 ends we have achieved the first goal of the SMASHSMA campaign . We have brought SMA right to the front of government and medical screening attention . Through your efforts SMA has been raised from a disease that nobody had heard of to one that is now firmly on the government and DOH radar . By any stretch of the imagination that is a major achievement . Thankyou to every person who has followed the campaign this year . Well done - you wonderful people 5 ) Well done to Mr Lamb and Mr Clegg too for taking this matter seriously and for moving SMA up the political and research agenda . So the year ends on a high as far as SMA and the possibility of screening is concerned . What matters now is to make sure that the consultation is done correctly and that the spirit and the drive of this cause gets through - in the end this is all very , very simple . We are talking about a disease that is carried by 1 in 40 people . If those people are unlucky and have a baby born with SMA type 1 then there is no cure . That baby will die . It would be good if those 1 in 40 people knew who they were so they can take informed decisions and have choices . What parent would disagree with that . Estella 's life was short and free from pain . That said we had to kiss her goodbye when she was only eight months old . If her legacy is that other parents don 't have to go through that pain then I am sure she would be very happy . I have told you before , my little girl had wise eyes and an old soul in a little body that didn 't work too well . She would very much like the idea of sparing sadness , she would very much like the idea of helping others . Put your feet up for a couple of days . We # re going to need you again soon . It 's a new dawn , it 's a new day - and we 're feeling good . Posted by Two days after I posted a blog regarding disappointment at a lack of follow up from the reception at the House of Commons I am told a letter has arrived at home from the Minister for Health giving details of a consultation . I would still argue that this is not what was suggested at the time but will wait to read the letter before commenting . In the meantime please keep this in mind when reading the blog entitled The Good , The Bad and the Pretty . It 's an entirely different feel to last year . We are in England rather than Spain - Cristina is due in 8 weeks or so which means we stayed here and had Maria 's parents over for a few days . I know she is a wee bit sad but we have had a good day and there are a fair few presents flying about ( literally in the shape of my remote controlled helicopter ) We had a trip down to Estella 's tree this morning . I had never noticed before that it is an evergreen and that it was the only one by the pond still to be green and brimming with life . As always as soon as we touched the wood time melted away and we were back with Estella . Heart wrenching tears from Maria and that feeling I get as if my soul had died with her . Anybody who saw us would not know whether to laugh or call the Funny Farm as we hug a tree from both sides and talk to it as we cry . We always take a present along . Today we wanted her to have her first ever orange and so peeled it and left the flesh and skin to decompose into the ground but we also took a Gingerbread house . An inspired present choice from Maria . Usually we leave the present there in the hope that a family comes by and takes it but today it soon became clear that the birds were interested . We took off the wrapper and set the house down in front of Estella 's tree so she could have a good view . They flocked around the house but did not realise that they could eat it . It was like watching the apes in 2001 circling the monolith until one of them develops the courage and intelligence to touch it . Eventually after breaking pieces off they worked out it was edible and started to feast . Our tears had gone and we were laughing at the birds and the Christmas morning show . But they will never be the same . All that happens is that the heartbreaks creep up on you sometimes when you are least expecting them . The nice thing is that the happy memories also suddenly slide into focus at unusual moments . I still feel Estella in the air and hear her in the night . I still miss her with more pain than I ever thought possible . I know that it 's a special day to day but I have been so annoyed with myself for not updating you all on what is happening . We have a little girl arriving in February - today Maria held her bump against Estella 's tree for her to meet with Cristina . They will have a lot in common . We know that Cristina will be her own person though but one day when we can we will tell her about the little diamond who paved the way for her . The little girl who showed more bravery in her few short months than I have seen in a lifetime . There has been a lot going on . It started out that I did not want to write up details of the trip to London for the SMASHSMA reception with Nick Clegg as I wanted to be able to report on outcomes . I wanted to give time for things to settle to evaluate how succesful the event had been . For the background please see earlier posts . So much has happened I hope you will forgive me just using bullet points The reception in London was a massive success . We had the Deputy Prime Minister , Nick Clegg , and the Health Minister , Norman Lamb , there as well as numerous MPs and other guests . At the time we were delighted with the session which went on for two hours . The Gillingwater SMA team from Edinburgh were on form revealing some groundbreaking SMA research that had been directly funded by your contributions . An amazing evening . Mr Clegg made a speech and instructed Norman Lamb to look into the possibility of testing for the gene that is carried by 1 in 40 . He took our details and said that as he had just come into the post it would take 3 to 4 weeks to contact us to discuss in more detail how he could help . Mr Clegg had already asked for a consultation into SMA and we were awaiting contact on this . The London reception could not have happened without Andrew Roddison and Morrisons Facility Services who sponsored the reception and made sure that we had a wonderful memorable day in London . They have been great supporters and tremendous advocates for smashing SMA funding sponsorship at Rotherham United and paying for every penny at the reception . We had support from some of our most vocal tweeters and that was one of the main joys of the day - meeting some of you in the flesh . It was great to see people who had been so vocal on Twitter having their time in the sun too . Maria did point out that they were all female and all pretty but I put that down to sheer random luck : ) We were told by the Health Minister that he was very moved by our case and that he would be in touch in three or four weeks - that never happened . To be honest that has been the first major set back of our campaign . The Government showed interest on the evening but did not go through with their promise to stay in touch . Everyone tells me I was politically naive to trust them and I apologise to everybody who has followed our campaign for doing so . It has now been almost a year to the day that we first met with Nick Clegg . I was convinced on the night that our presentation had moved him and it would have been a perfect way for Mr Lamb to make a splash right at the start of his new position . My old Headmaster always said that people should be judged not by their words but by their actions and as nothing has happened we have almost given up hope of true political support . I MUST point out that this is not a political decision . It was never about parties - It was about our little girl Estella and we trusted Nick Clegg because he is a Husband and a Father . There are probably good reasons why we have not been contacted but it would have been nice to update us with progress . For clarity - the Gillingwater campaign needs £ 50 , 000 to keep going strong for 2 years . It is our belief that the breakthroughs they are having will make a MAJOR difference to the SMA experience for thousands of families . Tom Gillingwater forbids me from using the word cure ever - but he knows what I think : ) We have continued to try and raise money for Tom Gillingwater - this will increase soon due to the kind donation of 1000 SMASHSMA bracelets and envellopes by twitter followers . We will be passing over the first £ 300 or so in January and there will be a monthly donation beyond that . We have moved house into an amazing place that has a lovely nursery for Cristina ( note new Spanish spelling ) We have had Maria 's parents over for a pre - Christmas Christmas . Great success and those of you who remember last Christmas will be pleased to see them looking so genuinly happy . They were our greatest rock during our short time with Estella and its now time for them to have the happy years they deserve . As I said there has been a lot going on and this is only a brief catch up . All goes well with Cristina - probably looking at mid February for her birth . Maria is doing an impression of the Goodyear Blimp and all tests are looking good . The Twitter account now has 41 , 500 followers and interest is as strong as ever . We are as grateful as ever for the support . We still get daily messages asking what SMA is - and that pleases me - my theory is that every person we tell can possibly become an advocate and there are some amazing people out there . Posted by As you know we have had amazing support ( no pun intended ) from celebrities ever since Estella died last November . Just this week Tom Cruise tweeted her details to millions of people . It made sense then that if we could get a celebrity to model the bra then this would raise the profile of SMA and at the same time increase the bids that we would get towards research . Nicola has been fantastic and straight away said taht she would be the model for the charity art bra . One of her bras is currently winging its way to us so that Linda can start work with the arty side of the project . Linda has not only been so supportive and enthusiastic she has also managed to get us hundreds of followers with her retweets . She has also spread the word among other celebrities who are also retweeting for our little Tinker , Estella . An amazing lady - please follow her on Twitter @ mrsnicolamclean So there we have it . Sometime before the end of the year Nicola will be modelling the bra and we will be holding a charity auction . There is talk of Linda making more bras for more celebrities as well and we are being followed by two excellent candidates in Natasha Giggs and Heather Bianchi Two more celbrities who mention Estella a lot . I can never say how gratteful I am for all of this enthusiasm and commitment from celebrities who are going the extra mile to alert people to the number ONE genetic killer of babies . There are some superb people about and I know that Estella would have had a cheeky smile for all of them . The most important thing now is to ensure that as many MPs as possible attend the reception and that is where you come in . It would be terrific if you would email the Member for your area to ask if they would attend the reception . I have put the suggested wording below . I am writing to inform you that a reception is being held in the Macmillan Room of Portcullis House on Tuesday 18th September from 6 pm - 8 pm . The reception is being hosted by the Deputy Prime Minister , Nick Clegg . . The reception is to raise awareness of Spinal Muscular Atrophy ( SMA ) . SMA is the number one genetic killer of babies in the UK I have followed and supported their campaign closely and would be very grateful if you would attend this reception on behalf of myself and the parents who have been affected by this disease from within your constituency . Research suggests that the cure for SMA may be very close - and it is the UK that stands a very good chance of unlocking the genetic solution . How wonderful if this campaign resulted in a cure being found for the number one genetic killer of babies . For more details of the background to Estella please look at these two links . The first one is a moving video that has been seen by over 50 , 000 people . The second gives details of Estella 's life . . http : / / www . youtube . com / watch ? v = 34RmmLWhr80 I mentioned Morrison and their support of the SMASH SMA campaign . Just look at this tremendous sign that they have put in at Rotherham United 's new stadium for the forthcoming season . They have been tremendous supporters and could not have been kinder . As part of our support of the Gillingwater - Parson research work we were delighted when a scholarship was set up in Estella 's name . We were even more delighted to receive this report from Katie Hoban detailing her work within this innovative environment . This is Katie 's report Estella I 'm OK at this Daddy lark . I have my moments but Maria is a natural . She cared for Estella with such love and devotion and ever since we had to say goodbye to her I have seen a Mummy who has had her soul and heart ripped away . It was essential that this devotion should have a child to be bestowed on . We had made our peace with a number of things during those sad , beautiful , tortured , memorable days that Estella was dying . I had sat by her bed and explained to her that although we would want another child they would never replace my Tinker in my heart . I asked her permission to let life carry on and asked her to give signs that she was OK . Of course there was guilt with wanting another child - of course there have been moments when I have asked if it is fair . Of course Estella was my cheeky monkey . We were originally going down the IVF route . By doing that we could guarantee that our next child would not be cursed with SMA . After a couple of months of discussion though we decided that the odds were low and that the route had its own problems . So in May we decided to go for the natural method and to hope . . . Maria was told that her reserves were low . On the score system they use she needed to be 16 and above to be fertile . She was a 2 . At first the wait was OK . We knew that the odds were probably in our favour and rested on that but as time went on we started to worry more . Maria told me every morning how big the baby was a pea , a bean , a cherry , a strawberry and she was also being incredibly sick . No test can be done on the placenta DNA until the 11th week . When that test is done the result takes about another week . We were clear - if this was SMA then we would have very difficult decisions to make . If we chose termination it would be done within a day or so . Last Tuesday we went to do the examination that would decide the future . While they took their sample through a very big needle poked into Maria 's tummy the bump was kicking its legs and waving . I sat watching and saw it wave . I thought it was waving goodbye . When Estella was very ill Maria made her a very fanciful promise . She said that we were sorry that we had made her a body that was so little and beautiful but did not work . She said that we would go away and build her a little body that did work . I 'm about to go on a great adventure . At the end of the rainbow I become a Daddy again . Tomorrow morning though I am going to see Tinker and I am going to thank her There are a couple of people reading this that I want to say sorry to . One of the hardest parts of the last 9 weeks has not being able to tell them what was happening or ask their advice or seek their support . I hope they understand . We have 26 , 000 followers on Twitter and a lot of that was down to the fact that one very nice American lady knew Stephen Fry and he tweeted about Estella . The time line went crazy and I remember being in tears as hundreds of people got to hear about Estella . It was amazing . To get round this to start with we had snowstorm hours - calls to action to tweet a celeb all at the same time . I remember Mia Farrow doing us a retweet when we shut down her time line - effective but not the best way to win friends and influence people . I think she was rather cross : ) Anton Ferdinand came across us and retweeted and we picked up hundreds . One night he asked his brother ( the man who should still be England captain ) Rio to tweet and it went crazy . We received 2 , 000 new followers in the space of an hour . It was an amazing evening . Just lately we have been lucky enough to meet with Natalie Cassidy . Natalie saw Estella 's video because her neice rang her and told her she should watch it . The support we have had since is for one reason only - Natalie is a Mum , and an extrordinairily good one , she was touched by Estella and has taken SMA under her wing with regular tweets , a Sunday People article and more care and love than you could ever believe . Maybe that 's the answer . A lot of the celebrities who have supported us are Mums or ones who have had their own experiences in life that have taught them the value of support and thought . We have had dozens of celebrity retweets about Estella . As soon as they see the video ( which has now been viewed by over 45 , 000 people ) they get it and they are so wonderful . Last week we had several retweets from another actress . The difference this time is that she is actually a star in the adult film industry in America . I had two tweets asking if it was such a good idea to be retweeted by her . All I can say is that she wanted to spread the word about SMA and she was touched by Estella 's story - so the answer is obvious . She 's a very caring person and we are proud that she gets Estella - so thanks for so much support to the amazing Sophie Dee . So that 's my thoughts this fine Sunday morning . No tears today . No calls to action just a thankyou to the celebrities who have been touched by Estella and her little life . I am sure a lot of celebrities don 't like the word . They are very much normal people who are also touched by sorrow and pity and tears and regret . By the same token there are so many of you following Estella who would never think of yourselves as celebrities . Never think of yourself as important or famous . We are going to put an end to this disease that took my daughter . We are going to pick away at it . We are going to shout at it . We are going to kick it . Don 't worry I 'm not going to sing Puff the Magic Dragon , The Runaway Train or Twinkle Twinkle Little Star . I 'm not here to tickle you and I won 't pull any of those silly faces . I 'm not even going to make you listen to The Cat in the Hat complete with overacting and silly voices . I say selfish because I tell you how Mummy is doing every night - this morning though I thought I 'd fill you in on how I 'm feeling . You know that I miss you more than I can ever say . I know I try not to cry because if I do and you are watching me then you may think that Daddy is sad or that he is lonely . I know youi do see me cry but sometimes they are happy tears because I remember something silly about you . Sometimes I cry because I miss you , you know that but sometimes I cry because some trees look lovely or I hear something about naughty SMA getting a kicking or I want to tell you about something that I can not . There is not a day goes by that I don 't think about how things could have been and I cry then too . That 's selfish though I know . Your poor little body wasn 't very well and I know you had started to realise that and that you would have become very upset if you had stayed much longer . I know that . Sometimes I cry because it was the right thing for you to go when you went . I know that 's selfish too because the tears are just my way of saying that I wish things could have been different . I wish I could have held you for longer or sang you a few more songs . I wish I could have kissed that illness out of you and had it in me . God I wish I could . The one thing that I never want to be different though is the effect that you had on this world . In your eight months here you managed to move so many people to care , to care about their lives , their children , their hopes - and to care about you . When you first said goodbye I thought that I would never laugh or smile again . You soon showed me that was wrong . You sent me so many signs . That 's why days like today aren 't too bad . It 's not been Christmas or New Year of Father 's Day when I have missed you the most . It 's at random unexpected moments . It happens a lot when I am driving or showering or waking up . If you see me crying then you have to forgive me please . It 's just time without you . The nice people are still here . They are doing all sorts to try and make it that other babies don 't have the naughty disease you had . When that happens then I know you will be very happy . Imagine that because of you living other babies don 't have to have those tubes and machines and those rooms and those dreadful moments that we thought we were losing you . I just want a moment in the day - an unexpected moment . I just want a breeze across my cheek . I just want a rainbow in the kitchen . I just want a song on the radio . I just want to have one moment when a memory of you comes floating by . I just want a white butterfyl to land on a bush . I just want a memory of something you did . On Sunday it was six months since Estella passed away . People were very kind as always and we had thousands of messages and photos and balloons and candles . We spent the whole day keeping up to date with all of the very kind support . How different to the dark November Sunday evening when we sat by her bed . She had died that afternoon and we had bathed her and dressed her for the final time . If I had to choose one moment from the whole of my experience with Estella that will live with me forever it was watching Maria bathing her little body and preparing her for her final journey . I have never seen anything as heart rendering and sad . I would give the world not to have had to see that . The reason I am trying to smash SMA is because I do not want other parents to be there in that room holding their child for the last time . Watching the water wash over legs that can no longer splash and eyes that can no longer see . The dearest person I have ever known silenced and stayed by the most evil and damned of diseases . I sat by her bed that night in that cold cold room and read her her story book and sang her her songs and then I got down on my knees and I apologised . I apologised to my little Tinker that there was nothing I could do to have saved her and there was nothing I could do to protect her and comfort her . There was nothing I could do . As a Daddy that makes me feel weak . As a Daddy that means I failed . I failed because the most hideous monster that could exist came to take my daughter away and nothing I could do could win that fight . I know I tried but I was nothing compared to Maria and the amazing 24 / 7 care and love that she gave Estella . I could not save her . And as I knelt I promised her that i would try my very best to make sure that people heard about this disease and I would not rest until it was something that people no longer needed to hear about . Last week we went to the park in Spain where half of Estella 's ashes sleep in a lovely fountain . We took her toys and sweeties and a balloon and sat and had a few words . A family came up , as always , and took the gifts away for another child . For another time . For another place . That felt good . Sat there feeling warmth on my skin and cool breeze in my hair I thought of Estella and how she had always seemed to be so wise and so knowing . I looked at other children and for a moment I wondered why she could not have had more time , more experience , more life . I know the philosophical debate that she lived a full life and one without pain and that she was very loved but she deserved more - she deserved so much more . Six months on and life is starting again . The shadows of the night are not always laced with fear and there are still rainbows and there are still moments of beauty and peace . The world is an amazing place and I was gifted for a short , too short , while with the most perfect little daughter . Her little body did not work . Her little mouth could not speak . Her little legs could not run A single tear ran down her cheek and she looked at me with such love and such care and such concern . She was crying because I was sad . She was crying because I was crying . She was longing to cuddle me and make it all right . Last week when we sat by her fountain Maria said to me that it was OK to cry but she tried her best not to because if Estella was watching she may think that we were crying because we were annoyed at her or diasppointed that she left us - and that broke my heart . Wherever she is - six months on - wherever she sleeps - wherever she dreams she has to know one thing . . . My darling little Tinker , I could not have been more proud of who you were and who you are and who you will be . No Daddy ever had a daughter so beautiful , so wise , so perfect and so capable of love . You came here for a reason little monkey and if that reason was to bring SMA to an end one day sooner and to ensure that other babies live and that other Daddies dont cry then all is fine and all is fair and all is peace . I miss you with every heartbeat and every breath . I love you with everything I am . I could not be prouder of the changes you are making to this world . - First , we have had a huge number of high - quality applications for the Estella Star SMA Scholarship . We are going to be interviewing over the next couple of weeks and will let you know who we have appointed ASAP . We will ask them to write a short report for you when they finish their project to let you know how they got on . - Second , we have made some really exciting progress with identifying a potential new drug for SMA . We are going to use the remainder of the funds you have helped raise to undertake pre - clinical testing in SMA mice . Any additional funds that come in will also be used for this trial ( we are also hoping to approach some of the large funding bodies in an attempt to raise some serious cash for this . . . we need at least £ 50k ! ) . If the results of this trial are positive , and show a beneficial effect of the drug in the SMA model mice , we would hope to try and move the drug towards human clinical trials as quickly as possible . Both of these developments would not have been possible without your incredible advocacy and support . I can 't begin to thank you both enough . I hope that you feel that these developments are moving things in the right direction and that together we can SMASH SMA ! There are millions of pounds donated to charities and pharmacutical firms to help solve SMA and here is the team who may have the solution and they are based in the UK . That has to be worth a 50k gamble . We will now dedicate the fund rasing side of SMASHSMA to trying to raise the 50k that Tom and his team need . Every donation counts . Tom Gillingwater contacted me today from Edinburgh University . You may remember his team are working on an SMA cure . They have decided to introduce a scholarship at the University for a student . The scholorship is called the Estella Star SMA memorial scholorship and will allow a student to be trained to help find a solution to SMA . As you can imagine an over emotional Mupet Daddy found this idea to be more than wonderful . Weeping like a fool . He had sent a response last month from the secretary of state . I did not write about it at the time because it was not very positive . I wrote back with a few comments and asked for more . The Parliamentary Under Secretary for Public Health , Anne Milton MP has agreed that SMA will be considered for preconception and carrier screening by the UK National Screening Committee ( UK NSC ) . They are going to look at the viability of screening for SMA - and here is the important bit - for the very first time ! They have never considered SMA screening before . Five months on the UK Government has asked for a detailed enquiry and consultation to decide if SMA should be screened for . 1 in 40 of you reading this article carry | SMA . It is the number one genetic killer of babies . In the coming months I will need you . When I last held her hand I promised her that we would SMASH SMA . I never dreamed that so many of you would walk this path with us . But you have . The most common question we get asked when people hear Estella 's tale is , " What can I do to help ? " It 's a wonderful reaction , it 's a very human reaction and it leaves me genuinely humbled every time somebody says it . What they do not realise is that simply asking the question is helping . It shows they care . I know there was something very special about my daughter . I am biased but time and time again I see people moved and willing to do anything they can to tell her story . I know when that happens that the magic and the mystery that was Estella is still alive and I am so so grateful . This blog is not about Muppet Daddy - it 's about practicalities . People ask how they can help and so I wanted to write a blog with genuine hard factual ways that they can contribute towards helping us . The only thing that I will say again is that I am so moved by the fact that people actually want to do anything . I take nothing for granted . I expect nothing . All you do for us , for SMA awareness , for Tinker is gold dust . Thankyou , with all my heart , Thankyou . If you are here then I don 't need to retell Estella 's story . It is documented well enough elsewhere in the blog . I will just concentrate on things that can be done to make this world a better place . OK . That 's Estella . She is why we are here What can you do to help ? We have over 16 , 000 followers on Twitter and 1 , 300 on Facebook . They are very powerful tools . I spend three hours every day keeping on top of things and trying to answer every message in person . This is one of the main areas where you can help . Some people are there just to follow , some are there to support and some seem to work all night trying to spread the word . There will be different responses but overall you can help by Trying to get a celebrity retweet . Stephen Fry brought 1 , 000 new followers and Rio Ferdinand added 2 , 500 in 3 hours . Think carefully about what you ask them to tweet . Will it grab attention ? Don 't complain if they don 't help . They get hundreds of requests but they are very kind and many do respond . Every now and then I will ask that you follow another cause . Usually these are people that made Estella 's little life better . Wonderful people like THE JENNIFER TRUST or BLUEBELL WOOD . Sometimes though I see a family out there struggling to raise awareness and I like to think that we can help them . Every time I do that I think of Estella smiling at helping a family or a baby . CONTRIBUTE TO SMA RESEARCH FUNDING We decided very early on that we were not going to set up a SMASHSMA charity . We are not rich but we are not poor and we don 't want any money at all for anything . The promise that was made to Estella was that we would do everything we could do to do three things Number 3 is the one that confuses people . I think when we talk of smashing SMA some people see us as grieving parents who are trying to do the impossible . It 's not impossible . There are many institutions with hundreds of thousands of pounds trying to come up with a cure . There are genuine people out there and I know they are coming up with major breakthroughs every day . So We suggest three different kinds of charitable donation 1 ) BLUEBELL WOOD - This is the hospice that gave Estella her childhood . Any donation to them makes us very happy indeed . That 's a personal response . 3 ) EDINBURGH UNIVERSITY - This is our big one . If the team at the University can get £ 100 , 000 I am convinced that they will make massive contributions to ending this disease . I wrote at length about them in the last blog - they are doing amazing things and they will make a difference to so many lives . Trust me please . I live and breathe SMA and research and developments . Tom Gillingwater and his team are the real deal . If you want to SMASHSMA give them a tenner . If you 're a celeb reading this make a donation of a hundred grand and let 's get rid of this disease ! SIGN THE PETITION We have had terrific all party support for the raising of SMA awareness and there are going to be remarkable things happening in the coming months . We have met with The Deputy Prime Minister , Nick Clegg and he has remained in contact . We need to have SMA discussed in Parliament - this will happen soon one way or another but we also have a petition to raise awareness of the need for screening for the disease . Even though we will have the matter discussed in the House of Commons it would still be good to have as much support as possible for this important petition . If you have not signed it already then please do so . Every person will count . http : / / epetitions . direct . gov . uk / petitions / 25997 If you have children . If you have the amazing luck to have children that are there with you every night . If you have children in your life . If you are a Mummy or a Daddy or a Grandparent then do one thing I have had happy moments since Estella said goodbye . Some really happy moments . Those moments have all been when something happens to remind me of how she felt , and how she looked and how she smiled . I was amazed that I still had any capacity to laugh or joke or smile or taste happiness . Look at your watch and give them an extra 30 minutes beyond the time when you think you 've had enough Sit and watch them and just for that thirty minutes imagine what riches , what fortunes , what gold I would give to have 30 more minutes with my Tinker . 30 little minutes watching her play . 30 more minutes to tell her what she means - what she will always mean . Go on , let them play a little longer and let them stay up to watch that programme that they want to watch . Cuddled up with their Mummy . Nestled into their Daddy

Posted on November 5 , 2011 by Berit ja Terje Reply In one of the Estonian newspapers Postimees Arter in December 2009 there was a story by an acknowledged nature man and traveller Hendrik Relve . Among other things he mentioned the travels of us , the Avantourists . Relve mainly refers to our journey on The Galápagos Islands and but with a certain critical note he questions our ethics concerned to environmental behaviour . Since Relve writes that he is still thinking what it is and how to interpret it , we decided to take a chance and explain our motives and principles of the case in Galapagos and at large . Many use the so called beach - bar version , but the youth certainly go on trips . Tripping goes something like that , you hitch hike or take a budget flight to some far away and unfamiliar place , but you have your laptop and phone with you and you 're communicative . In a half a day you 've found new friends . How much is it of youthful protest and hedonism and how much of exploring the new world and yourself is in the hands of the young himself . But one thing has put me thinking . For example , two young women Berit Renser and Terje Toomistu have written in their blog how they went tripping and found themselves in Galapagos . They didn 't have much money but they made friends easily . Local men took them on their boat and together they went to an island which is under protection and where no one without a permit should go , and where hunting is illegal . But the girls write with proud how their friends shot a few deers and they caught a couple of crabs , and then they lit a bonfire , cooked and had a great party . I still keep thinking what is it and how to interpret it . We 'd like to start a bit further than The Galápagos Islands and explain the term " to trip " . As a word as such doesn 't exist in Estonian , it was loaned from English and thus it has got a certain field of use , which is affirmed by the existence of one of the biggest travelling portals in Estonia , trip . ee . In Estonian " trip " mainly means a short journey . In slang " tripping " is usually a combination of physical and mental joruney , which doesn 't necessarily have to dddrugs . We 'd also be glad to call our journeys trips , but we don 't recognise ourselves in the description brought by Relve . For us tripping has a little to do with a laptop and a mobile phone since we usually don 't bring neither of those along , but it certainly has to do with cheap flight tickets or hitch hiking . How open to new social and cultural relationships made at a trip anybody is , is of course in the hands of the young himself . It is mainly connected with the motives of travelling . Hendrik Relve has a background of natural sciences but ours is of cultural studies , this might also be the reason why our interests on our travels are different by nature . A natural scientist is interested in natural environment with its flora and fauna , and he also acknowledges the necessity of conserving it . No doubt an ecosystem as unique as the one of the Galápagos Islands needs conservation and certain measures have been put in practice by both national and international organisations . The inhabitants of Galápagos who took us to another island in the morning darkness and with whom we sat there until it became dark again , explained us the reasons of their behaviour . Having born on the island each of them told a melancholic story of how in childhood they went fishing with an uncle or how turtles splashed in a meter - deep water exactly where there 's a great harbour at the moment . In the middle of the twentieth century measures and laws for conserving nature were started to put in practice , those measures were mainly originated from the western discourse in which nature and humans are contrasted . This was very disturbing for the locals and thus a situation arose in which they tried to protect nature from the nature protectors . It should also be kept in mind that turning Galápagos into a natural reserve was an external action , and very rarely , if at all , the locals were included . On the other hand the rise of local inhabitants is also related to the creation of the nature reserve . All this has caused a conflict that is still in the air - many activities which through generations used to be cultural , daily and vital for surviving have been limited or criminalized . This is their new social reality . Our local friends threw parallels with a case when your house and forest is suddenly surrounded by a fence and you 're asked to find a new make of living for the future . Because of the new laws instead of animals a local sees tourists in the forests , and a bureaucracy machine that collects richness in the village . In a situation like that a person , although still a part of the ecosystem , feels that he has lost control over his dwelling . There have been many manifestations concerning this problem , in years there have been some so serious that in the mind of protest a national institution have been lit or sea lions beaten to death . It has to be said that not all locals are environmentally conscious , but our little circle of friends were . Often the reason for the locals ' misbehaviour is povery , often illiteracy and ignorance . But this is the place where anthropological and natural science should meet . Of course we were puzzled at first and didn 't know how to ration the things the locals do when the eye of the law doesn 't see . The people who took us to the other island were utterly environment conscious , but not lawful . Bonfire was made where there had been a bonfire before , since it most likely was a rather popular corner for the locals . The mentioned deers that were shot belong among the species that were brought in and are thus considered tackling the natural development of Galápagos ecosystem . On many islands deer killing is a conscious and aimed activity organised by the state . Also the crabs , Grapsus grapsus in Latin , we ate that day are among the few species on the Galápagos Islands that are not among the endangered ones and which are common at the west coast of South America . We hope that this reply helps to understand our tripping style and its mediation through a blog . In the future we certainly try to concentrate on sayings that might be against our beliefs if not accompanied by our explanation . Hereby we 'd like to thank Hendrik Relve who helped to draw attention to those nuances . Posted on May 26 , 2011 by Berit ja Terje 2 Arriving back from the trip around Galapagos to the tiny capital village Puerto Ayora we were out of breath - the great theory of evolution had laid in front of us . We had realized that good old Mother Earth had been fooling us throughout our life , because there is still places in the world where She is capable for more . She is capable of showing the breathtaking beauty that is there for thousands of years ( but unfortunately not much longer ) . But just to imagine it being timeless - it made me difficult to breathe calmly . And just to imagine it dissapearing , which it is , made me want to cry . But meanwhile our Mad Writer had backed off . He announced that he is having family from New York to come over . Later on we heard stories in town that memories of the war years still haunt him terribly . Fair enough . A long narrow walkway meanders along the forest of grey cactuses , where time does not exist . All stands as written in stone , like in a fairy tale of the elves . Five miles later , we arrived a stormy beach , passed some sleepy iguanas and found ourselves in paradise , which had been brought down from some forgotten dream . On the bottom of the light blue lagoon rays were wondering , occasionally the sea turtles quietly emerged on the surface of the water . We sat on the beach under low light green trees , watching the birds catching their dinner , having toe massage in the white silk sand and shaking from the view over the dramatic clouds . The sun suddenly cut a hole into their dark surface and stretched its rays to burn my bare legs . Fell to the ground , put on the head phones , breathed the air , and listened to a stabbing guitar , which excited my senses like good erotica . Breath , breath in the air … Don 't be afraid to care … Leave but don 't leave me … Look around , choose your own ground … Dazed by life . I am living the dream that I never remembered to dream of . It arrived like a powerful secret . I locked the time , stranded on the sand to the bright emptiness and whispered words into nothingness : " I 'm in love with you . In love . " Like Estonians are not bothered by a cow on a meadow , the people from Galapagos don 't mind huge turtles walking on the road in slow motion . To move on , they have to get out of their car and try to get the massive beast out of the way somehow . But these turtles are indeed , massive . You could crawl inside one shell with a friend and there still would be room for moving around . Sea pirates loved these things , as they could still eat fresh meat after a year on the sea if they would take on of those on the ship with them . Now , the endangered species is taken such care of , they 're kept in the Darwin center until they reach the age of two , before letting them out to the wild . Families of sea lions lay on the red sand on the beach . Their ignorance comes across unpolite when we lay down next the adorable baby lions . The landscape looks syrreal again , like on an unknown planet - trees of gypsum , dramatic red canyons , arising from the light blue unresting water . Soon we realize , this is Galapagos - an unkown planet , not Earth for sure . On another amazing beach with narrow cliffs arising from the sea on the background , we notice something suspicious a few meters from the remote shore . What we see , resembles something from a cartoon , against logic and usually non - existent that is . But when Berit admits to see the same , it has to be there for real . The guide doesn 't share our misapprehension : Of course these are sharks . The small ones , only a few meters long , he explains . We cannot see anything alive anymore . The nature is covered by black fabric in wrinkles . There 's a huge river of lawa that meanders in front of us just like a giant formalist art work . Posted on May 24 , 2011 by Berit ja Terje Reply The floor is ice - cold when we step out of the bed . Water is crackling like it 's about to freeze . Hair is dirty , two hours of sleep is not enough to keep our eyes open . The shower is freezing . These are the mornings you hate the most . Something is happening behind the door and making a lot of noise . „ Girls , girls , get up , quick ! " the Mad Writer is doing something in the yard . We open the door , annoyed . Jorge is standing outside , packing , with a bright yellow raincoat , safari hat , capris and swimming sneakers on , holding a thermos . He reminds me of one of those guys from the movie Grumpy old men . He tosses me a watermelon , a few kilos of weight , covers us with the same neon yellow plastic and tells us to exit the room . It 's 4 : 30 AM . We walk through the town to the port . It 's so terribly wet . We don 't know anything . It 's unclear to us for some time , where we 're going . We 're sitting in the port , no one around . Jorge gets nervous . Are we late ? We were supposed to meet in this secret place , weren 't we ? Luckily , the Ecuadorian time is accurate on Galapagos , too - no one is on time . An hour and a half later , the sun is up and we are arriving to some island . The boat is making its way through lava walls resembling a labyrinth , the engine rolling . Left , right , left , right , until we reach a small blue bay . Someone points out to sea turtles who are sticking their heads out of the water . Blub - blub - blub a head arises and blub - blub - blub another descends below the surface . Finally we reach the shore . We have landed on the Moon . Everything is rock . Black ground beneath us has shattered into a thousand tiles . Bright red plants grow in the cracks . We take our time to explore the island , until the others settle in to the shore , as if they could visit the Moon every day . We find ourselves in a labyrinth of ditches covered with bright green moss . There is nothing except turfs around us , cactuses on top of them . But not the cute ones with a bit of fur you would plant in a pot on your windowsill , but massive cactus trees with agressive branches . The only plants living among them are white bushes made of gypsum . Nothing moves in that forest . Not a leave , animal , nor wind is there with us . We walk on along the seashore . Red crabs scrabble on black rocks , hiding quickly to the cracks when they see us . Hundreds of iguanas sit on the rocks , their skin the exact same color as the rock . I lay on a rock , the sun at the zenith above me and doze off , an iguana aside me . When I wake up , I walk back to the others . The boat driver is chopping fresh fish . Two of the men are somewhere in the woods . A couple of hours later , they return with a split - up goat . Two of the others are crawling between the rocks with a long stick and a hook , trying to catch crabs . Of course , all of this is forbidden . No tourist has ever been here . No one has a hunting permit for the animals of Galapagos . No local is allowed to be here without a permission , even if it has been their life since they were kids . Posted on May 24 , 2011 by Berit ja Terje 2 Of course , he did not come . We fit our huge screaming yellow backpacks on a bench in the park . A few monstrous iguanas are lying right there on the sidewalk , and the Pelicans spin around through the heavens of the sky , like the flying lizards from the ancient times . Slightly creepy , but after all , this is Galapagos islands . Did the Mad Writer lie to us ? Was it just a big failure ? Maybe something happened to him at the airport ? The toll took him down or something like that … Maybe he had an accident with bus and now he 's sadly holding his plastered foot in a hospital bed ? Or maybe the plane crashed down , and has gone away forever ? Maybe he suddenly realized that we are not enough interesting types to match the characters of his next book after all ? Or maybe he did not fly to Galapagos at all ? Maybe he is currently giggling with laughter somewhere in the airport coffee shop in Bogota , waiting for the next flight to Cuba , for example ? We open our Lonely Planet around the Galapagos Islands , and in the map of the largest city Puerto Ayora there 's a grassy bold dot . Here should be his houdse , as he had told us earlier . We decided to go and look for it , our heart beating hard when reaching the massive wooden fence . Indeed , the house is exactly as he had described - a grassy garden and a hammock run - down . But what is missing is the Mad Writer . The deep stomach feeling told us to wait for another couple of hours , but nothing . Finally we sadly started moving towards some cheap hotel … And from a faraway distance I notice a funny man in yellow fisherman 's coat waving . Is he waving for us ? As we get closer we recognize familiar glasses under fisherman 's hat frames . This is him . The Mad Writer as crazy as life itself ! It turns out that he was going to the park looking for us in this very moment , when we peeked into his garden through a loop - hole . The following nights are on track with exciting stories about life Galapagos before the tourists . How some lucky few have found from the home garden the ark of some old pirates and then simply changed the precious gold coins into local cash that has not much value due to strong local inflation . So as a result losing everything in the next few years … How does the National Park rules irritate local fishermen , and as a sign of protest they have burned the public offices and beaten sea lions til death . How his family had the first store in Galapagos . And how his mother took the children to live in New York City , because the sister of the Mad Writer was pregnant outside of marriage … As all immigrants in America at the time , they were living hard times of trouble and tribulation . It was the time of hippie dream and America was losing the Vietnam War . But that was were the Mad Writer saw a solution for his family . He became a soldier and he fought in Vietnam for two years . Not for America , but for his family . After returning the world turned even more crazy around him . He was living crazy life in New York on the fifth Avenue . Did a great career in best hairdressing salons with the most beautiful models . He ended up hanging around crazy gay - characters of the time in the coolest hang - out places and clubs of 1970 - 1980 New York . Nobody gave a shit what WAS going on in Studio 54 . White stripes lying on tables and people having sex in public , whenever the desire was on . And it was on . It was still the best pages of the history of NYC . He got into Chippendales show , as a Manager , or . Sex , drugs and rock ' n ' roll … I turn around to see who spoke to me . A man in his fifties with a tanned face and spiky hair handled with gel , is looking me insistingly through his red frames . A white linen jacket is hanging loose on his shoulders with an eye - catching badge . A black oddly shaped leather bag , leather bands around his wrists and big military boots give his hippie - casual urban look its final touch . The mystery man says he 's from Galapagos , and would like to give us some advice on exploring the islands . He invites us to the airport cafe after check - in and orders corn pie and coffee like he 's done that before . He gives us that look again . All three of us probably share skepticism towards each other at that moment . The old man begins the narrative with his childhood on the islands . The farther he goes , the more expressive his tone and gestures get . He tells of the lush nature of Galapagos twenty years ago and of the catastrophe that was devastating for the plants and animals . " Oil , oil , oil , " he shouts furiously so the whole airport can hear him . But we are no longer at the cafe , we are traveling with sea turtles in the bay as his story goes , or fly like birds over a stormy sea . The man has given up speaking and switched to acting as me and Terje share the picture before his eyes of dirty oil greasing his hands . I feel tears in my eyes , although I try to fight them - so stabbing are the man 's words . A moment later , the stranger switches back to reality . We feel a magnificent connection between the three of us . We haven 't spoken anything personal , which keeps the mystery alive . We would like to ask him , who is he and where he 's from , we would like to know anything . But we know that would kill the mysticism of the moment and press down our curiosity . He 's just a madman for us . Just before we step in the plane , a commitment obligatory for this kind of situation is made . He says he has a house on the islands and asks us to visit him . In a couple of hours , we should meet him in a park near the Pacific Ocean . This is the only piece of knowledge we have when we 're flying closer and closer to Galapagos . The coast is divided into another three , based on the vegetation . The North is the most fertile - area above the equator . The beaches there are green , flowing through the narrow village roads and descends with furious speed down to the ocean under the rocks . We went to see the life in a little beach named Mompiche , which must be the most authentic seaside village we have ever seen . Going towards South by the coast , the lush green slowly diminishes until fully replaced by red dry ground , the flora lessens . Trees without leaves on their wide crowns grow on the bumpy coast , keen on reaching their branches towards light , which makes their figure round and powerful . The massive trees rise from the hills of the desert in proud solitude . Local travelers love Canoa . Not too many tourists , pleasant atmosphere and the surrounding is beautiful . When we found a hotel a Polish guy had recommended , we tossed a coin to see who gets which room , we ended up in the same room with that Pole . Fate . 1 . He 's called Greg , a 25 - year - old professional traveler . Traveled through all of South - Asia , lived in Ireland and England and finally decided that South - America is the continent for him . We shared a common interest with Greg - to see all the caves around Canoa . So we prowled in the morning fog , Berit still sleeping like a doll , through the beach far and away , until we reached the dark caves accessible only at low tide . Bats were hanging from the moist ceiling . We spent quite a few mornings in there , sharing joint , watching the sea being hungry for us more and more in every minute . An episode from the Bible opened up before us - the one , where Moses led his people through the stormy sea . The same case applied here , only the other way around - the ground was cut into two so the sea could flow through . Which makes the one trying to get through from here , a ship . True . Going onward , we reached the top of a cliff . We were enjoying the local Brazilian boys doing capoeira down on the beach , listening to some good music from my player . Suddenly , out of nowhere , another person was standing behind us . On a closer observation , he turned out to be our fourth companion . 2 . The name 's Chuck . When asking about his age , he used to say : I 'm on my easy thirties … Occupation : professional backpacker . Seriously . He traveled around in Africa for a year , some time in Asia , worked on quite a few good positions in Israel , he decided to ditch that life for a while . He put his two apartments in Israel for a rent and this is his fourth year traveling in South - America . He 's an expert on a number of things : a diving expert , traveling expert , expert musician , expert narrator and an expert on rolling joints . In addition to that , he make two twists with his tongue ( the Israeli army , boring as hell and long as forever , teaches quite a few things - like how to keep yourself busy without seemingly doing anything ) . According to him , women were waiting in lines to kiss him ! But we agreed on traveling together as musicians some day , because we had a connection there . We tried that on the beach after a late - night swim . When I get Berit to agree , we 're gonna do it . With a company like this , time and space lost its dimensions . The days in Canoa created a cycle with no beginning or end . A loop . Freedom . Infinite . Intractable flow of thoughts . C ' mon people of the village ! Follow the magic - stick . We gonna hit the waves the most fantastic way tonight . In the complete dark . Follow me ! After that , we had lost or clothes with no hope of finding them . The waves had carried us 400 meters in the middle of darkness . We couldn 't see anything . All we could hear was the sound of the stormy sea and laughter of four people in euphoria .

Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up . Description Rating Title Marrow , Guinn Description Oral History of Guinn Marrow , Interviewed by Bart Callan , May 17 , 2005 Audio Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / audio / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . mp3 Video Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / videojs / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . htm Transcript Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / Transcripts _ and _ photos / K - 25 / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . doc Collection Name K - 25 Related Collections COROH Interviewee Marrow , Guinn Interviewer Callan , Bart Type video Language English Subject Atomic Bomb ; Blacks ; Cattle cars ; Dormitories ; Housing ; K - 25 ; Manhattan Project , 1942 - 1945 ; Oak Ridge ( Tenn . ) ; X - 10 ; Y - 12 ; People Brantley , Jerry ; Brelant , Bud ; Hackworth , Jim ; Sawicki , Joe ; Truman , Harry ; Willis , Dick ; Winkle , Robert ( Bob ) ; Places Camp Blandon ( Fl . ) ; Clinch River ; Gamble Valley ; Jackson Square ; K - 29 ; Madisonville ( Ky . ) ; Monroe County ( Tenn . ) ; New York City ( N . Y . ) ; Paducah ( Ky . ) ; Polk County ( Tenn . ) ; Scarboro ( Tenn . ) ; Tellico Plains ( Tenn . ) ; Organizations / Programs J . A . Jones and Company ; MAN Program ; Tennessee Valley Authority ( TVA ) ; U . S . Army ; Union Carbide ; Things / Other Flattops ; Date of Original 2005 Format flv , doc , mp3 Length 1 hour , 17 minutes File Size 1 . 20 GB Source K - 25 Location of Original Oak Ridge Public Library Rights Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge , Oak Ridge , TN 37830 Disclaimer : " This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government . Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof , nor any of their employees , makes any warranty , express or implied , or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy , completeness , or usefulness of any information , apparatus , product , or process disclosed , or represents that process , or service by trade name , trademark , manufacturer , or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement , recommendation , or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof . The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of theDate : 5 / 17 / 05 Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Marrow , G . : Guinn Marrow . G - U - I - N - N M - A - R - R - O - W . Callan , B . : Okay . And how old are you , if you don 't mind me asking ? Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Okay . I worked for J . A . Jones on the railroad for - - ' til I was 18 years old and they hired me at Union Carbide . Callan , B . : Okay . And what kind of railroad construction were you doing ? Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , I was one of 11 kids in our family . My daddy raised us on a farm - - a rented farm , not ours - - and so all of us went to work as prior as we could to try to help the family out . Callan , B . : And so how did you first hear about work happening up here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . So we caught the truck the next morning and come up here , and they hired us right off . Callan , B . : And what did you first think about the place up here when you first arrived up here with all the activity going on ? Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . I started there and worked until March , the end of March of ' 90 . Callan , B . : Okay . So you were how old when you started working out here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Callan , B . : So did you pretty much see the facility come up from nothing from where they started laying the slab and put the whole thing together ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Callan , B . : Was it an impressive site to see , that building ? Callan , B . : Well , tell me about it . How big was it ? Marrow , G . : Well , the K - 25 building 's a quarter of a mile wide and a mile long . It 's in a U - shape . Callan , B . : And how many people were out there working on it ? Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Then later on they merged all these classifications into maintenance mechanics . That covers a lot of the different classifications , maintenance mechanic did . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . [ 1 : 23 : 41 ] Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Callan , B . : How many people would you say were working up on the operations floor at any given time ? Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - [ End of Tape 1 , Begin Tape 2 ] Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Can you give me that whole story again about how you started ? You were here , and - - Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . And so I come back and I worked there until end of March of 1990 . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Callan , B . : He told me some outrageous stories when we were at dinner about sneaking in whiskey and some of his adventures with that . I guess initially the secret city - - I guess there was prohibition , too , really . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . And a few people was working around there for TVA , but a lot of them quit that and started to work up here . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Callan , B . : Were you treated pretty well by your managers or the folks at Union Carbide ? Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Callan , B . : And on that day , what was it like the day that you found out or that you heard the bomb was dropped ? Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . When a young 18 - year - old kid was trained to do something , you know , they want to do it . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Marrow , G . : I don 't know . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Callan , B . : It sounds similar to something that - - Are you familiar with Jim Hackworth ? Marrow , G . : He 's the one that got me in on this . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Callan , B . : He said sometimes they had to have Easter egg hunts . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . That 's uh - - Callan , B . : Tell me what an Easter egg hunt is . Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No he didn 't . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Callan , B . : And so it was just kind of turning a couple valves ? Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Callan , B . : So if there was a cell leak or something like that , I guess all the cells - they had a housing around them . That 's why it was so hot inside the cells itself was because of the housing ? Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Callan , B . : How come they didn 't use housings on K - 29 ? Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had to go in there and pull the seals out of the compressors and close everything off . You know , make it where any of that gas was left in there couldn 't escape . Callan , B . : So you said pull the seals off the compressors . Was that every single compressor there ? Marrow , G . : I don 't - - right now I couldn 't say . I think it 's 12 compressors to a cell . Callan , B . : So we 're talking a lot of compressors there . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . And they had metal detectors . And they had machines . Stick your hands in and check you for radiation . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Callan , B . : So did they do pretty regular testing overall on people who worked at the facility ? Radiological testing and whatnot ? Marrow , G . : Oh , I 'm not familiar with that . I don 't - - Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Callan , B . : How long were the change houses out there ? Kind of in the earlier - - Marrow , G . : Yeah . How long did they have them ? Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Callan , B . : Did you yourself ever have to go to the dispensary to have them - - ? Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : Well , they 'd uh - - You had people like that . That try to , you know , do the job faster than what it 's supposed to be done and stuff like that . Callan , B . : What would say was your most challenging assignment that you had to do out there , either as an individual or as a group of people ? What was the most difficult thing you had to do while working in the K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Callan , B . : What would say was your most significant accomplishment as a group out there - - or as an individual ? Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Callan , B . : Gamble Valley . I 've heard that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Marrow , G . : Well , I 'd probably write about the plant at Oak Ridge . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up .

Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up . Description Rating Title Marrow , Guinn Description Oral History of Guinn Marrow , Interviewed by Bart Callan , May 17 , 2005 Audio Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / audio / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . mp3 Video Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / videojs / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . htm Transcript Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / Transcripts _ and _ photos / K - 25 / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . doc Collection Name K - 25 Related Collections COROH Interviewee Marrow , Guinn Interviewer Callan , Bart Type video Language English Subject Atomic Bomb ; Blacks ; Cattle cars ; Dormitories ; Housing ; K - 25 ; Manhattan Project , 1942 - 1945 ; Oak Ridge ( Tenn . ) ; X - 10 ; Y - 12 ; People Brantley , Jerry ; Brelant , Bud ; Hackworth , Jim ; Sawicki , Joe ; Truman , Harry ; Willis , Dick ; Winkle , Robert ( Bob ) ; Places Camp Blandon ( Fl . ) ; Clinch River ; Gamble Valley ; Jackson Square ; K - 29 ; Madisonville ( Ky . ) ; Monroe County ( Tenn . ) ; New York City ( N . Y . ) ; Paducah ( Ky . ) ; Polk County ( Tenn . ) ; Scarboro ( Tenn . ) ; Tellico Plains ( Tenn . ) ; Organizations / Programs J . A . Jones and Company ; MAN Program ; Tennessee Valley Authority ( TVA ) ; U . S . Army ; Union Carbide ; Things / Other Flattops ; Date of Original 2005 Format flv , doc , mp3 Length 1 hour , 17 minutes File Size 1 . 20 GB Source K - 25 Location of Original Oak Ridge Public Library Rights Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge , Oak Ridge , TN 37830 Disclaimer : " This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government . Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof , nor any of their employees , makes any warranty , express or implied , or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy , completeness , or usefulness of any information , apparatus , product , or process disclosed , or represents that process , or service by trade name , trademark , manufacturer , or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement , recommendation , or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof . The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of theDate : 5 / 17 / 05 Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Marrow , G . : Guinn Marrow . G - U - I - N - N M - A - R - R - O - W . Callan , B . : Okay . And how old are you , if you don 't mind me asking ? Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Okay . I worked for J . A . Jones on the railroad for - - ' til I was 18 years old and they hired me at Union Carbide . Callan , B . : Okay . And what kind of railroad construction were you doing ? Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , I was one of 11 kids in our family . My daddy raised us on a farm - - a rented farm , not ours - - and so all of us went to work as prior as we could to try to help the family out . Callan , B . : And so how did you first hear about work happening up here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . So we caught the truck the next morning and come up here , and they hired us right off . Callan , B . : And what did you first think about the place up here when you first arrived up here with all the activity going on ? Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . I started there and worked until March , the end of March of ' 90 . Callan , B . : Okay . So you were how old when you started working out here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Callan , B . : So did you pretty much see the facility come up from nothing from where they started laying the slab and put the whole thing together ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Callan , B . : Was it an impressive site to see , that building ? Callan , B . : Well , tell me about it . How big was it ? Marrow , G . : Well , the K - 25 building 's a quarter of a mile wide and a mile long . It 's in a U - shape . Callan , B . : And how many people were out there working on it ? Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Then later on they merged all these classifications into maintenance mechanics . That covers a lot of the different classifications , maintenance mechanic did . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . [ 1 : 23 : 41 ] Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Callan , B . : How many people would you say were working up on the operations floor at any given time ? Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - [ End of Tape 1 , Begin Tape 2 ] Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Can you give me that whole story again about how you started ? You were here , and - - Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . And so I come back and I worked there until end of March of 1990 . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Callan , B . : He told me some outrageous stories when we were at dinner about sneaking in whiskey and some of his adventures with that . I guess initially the secret city - - I guess there was prohibition , too , really . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . And a few people was working around there for TVA , but a lot of them quit that and started to work up here . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Callan , B . : Were you treated pretty well by your managers or the folks at Union Carbide ? Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Callan , B . : And on that day , what was it like the day that you found out or that you heard the bomb was dropped ? Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . When a young 18 - year - old kid was trained to do something , you know , they want to do it . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Marrow , G . : I don 't know . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Callan , B . : It sounds similar to something that - - Are you familiar with Jim Hackworth ? Marrow , G . : He 's the one that got me in on this . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Callan , B . : He said sometimes they had to have Easter egg hunts . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . That 's uh - - Callan , B . : Tell me what an Easter egg hunt is . Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No he didn 't . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Callan , B . : And so it was just kind of turning a couple valves ? Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Callan , B . : So if there was a cell leak or something like that , I guess all the cells - they had a housing around them . That 's why it was so hot inside the cells itself was because of the housing ? Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Callan , B . : How come they didn 't use housings on K - 29 ? Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had to go in there and pull the seals out of the compressors and close everything off . You know , make it where any of that gas was left in there couldn 't escape . Callan , B . : So you said pull the seals off the compressors . Was that every single compressor there ? Marrow , G . : I don 't - - right now I couldn 't say . I think it 's 12 compressors to a cell . Callan , B . : So we 're talking a lot of compressors there . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . And they had metal detectors . And they had machines . Stick your hands in and check you for radiation . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Callan , B . : So did they do pretty regular testing overall on people who worked at the facility ? Radiological testing and whatnot ? Marrow , G . : Oh , I 'm not familiar with that . I don 't - - Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Callan , B . : How long were the change houses out there ? Kind of in the earlier - - Marrow , G . : Yeah . How long did they have them ? Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Callan , B . : Did you yourself ever have to go to the dispensary to have them - - ? Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : Well , they 'd uh - - You had people like that . That try to , you know , do the job faster than what it 's supposed to be done and stuff like that . Callan , B . : What would say was your most challenging assignment that you had to do out there , either as an individual or as a group of people ? What was the most difficult thing you had to do while working in the K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Callan , B . : What would say was your most significant accomplishment as a group out there - - or as an individual ? Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Callan , B . : Gamble Valley . I 've heard that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Marrow , G . : Well , I 'd probably write about the plant at Oak Ridge . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up .

Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up . Description Rating Title Marrow , Guinn Description Oral History of Guinn Marrow , Interviewed by Bart Callan , May 17 , 2005 Audio Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / audio / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . mp3 Video Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / videojs / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . htm Transcript Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / Transcripts _ and _ photos / K - 25 / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . doc Collection Name K - 25 Related Collections COROH Interviewee Marrow , Guinn Interviewer Callan , Bart Type video Language English Subject Atomic Bomb ; Blacks ; Cattle cars ; Dormitories ; Housing ; K - 25 ; Manhattan Project , 1942 - 1945 ; Oak Ridge ( Tenn . ) ; X - 10 ; Y - 12 ; People Brantley , Jerry ; Brelant , Bud ; Hackworth , Jim ; Sawicki , Joe ; Truman , Harry ; Willis , Dick ; Winkle , Robert ( Bob ) ; Places Camp Blandon ( Fl . ) ; Clinch River ; Gamble Valley ; Jackson Square ; K - 29 ; Madisonville ( Ky . ) ; Monroe County ( Tenn . ) ; New York City ( N . Y . ) ; Paducah ( Ky . ) ; Polk County ( Tenn . ) ; Scarboro ( Tenn . ) ; Tellico Plains ( Tenn . ) ; Organizations / Programs J . A . Jones and Company ; MAN Program ; Tennessee Valley Authority ( TVA ) ; U . S . Army ; Union Carbide ; Things / Other Flattops ; Date of Original 2005 Format flv , doc , mp3 Length 1 hour , 17 minutes File Size 1 . 20 GB Source K - 25 Location of Original Oak Ridge Public Library Rights Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge , Oak Ridge , TN 37830 Disclaimer : " This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government . Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof , nor any of their employees , makes any warranty , express or implied , or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy , completeness , or usefulness of any information , apparatus , product , or process disclosed , or represents that process , or service by trade name , trademark , manufacturer , or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement , recommendation , or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof . The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of theDate : 5 / 17 / 05 Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Marrow , G . : Guinn Marrow . G - U - I - N - N M - A - R - R - O - W . Callan , B . : Okay . And how old are you , if you don 't mind me asking ? Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Okay . I worked for J . A . Jones on the railroad for - - ' til I was 18 years old and they hired me at Union Carbide . Callan , B . : Okay . And what kind of railroad construction were you doing ? Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , I was one of 11 kids in our family . My daddy raised us on a farm - - a rented farm , not ours - - and so all of us went to work as prior as we could to try to help the family out . Callan , B . : And so how did you first hear about work happening up here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . So we caught the truck the next morning and come up here , and they hired us right off . Callan , B . : And what did you first think about the place up here when you first arrived up here with all the activity going on ? Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . I started there and worked until March , the end of March of ' 90 . Callan , B . : Okay . So you were how old when you started working out here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Callan , B . : So did you pretty much see the facility come up from nothing from where they started laying the slab and put the whole thing together ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Callan , B . : Was it an impressive site to see , that building ? Callan , B . : Well , tell me about it . How big was it ? Marrow , G . : Well , the K - 25 building 's a quarter of a mile wide and a mile long . It 's in a U - shape . Callan , B . : And how many people were out there working on it ? Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Then later on they merged all these classifications into maintenance mechanics . That covers a lot of the different classifications , maintenance mechanic did . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . [ 1 : 23 : 41 ] Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Callan , B . : How many people would you say were working up on the operations floor at any given time ? Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - [ End of Tape 1 , Begin Tape 2 ] Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Can you give me that whole story again about how you started ? You were here , and - - Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . And so I come back and I worked there until end of March of 1990 . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Callan , B . : He told me some outrageous stories when we were at dinner about sneaking in whiskey and some of his adventures with that . I guess initially the secret city - - I guess there was prohibition , too , really . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . And a few people was working around there for TVA , but a lot of them quit that and started to work up here . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Callan , B . : Were you treated pretty well by your managers or the folks at Union Carbide ? Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Callan , B . : And on that day , what was it like the day that you found out or that you heard the bomb was dropped ? Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . When a young 18 - year - old kid was trained to do something , you know , they want to do it . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Marrow , G . : I don 't know . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Callan , B . : It sounds similar to something that - - Are you familiar with Jim Hackworth ? Marrow , G . : He 's the one that got me in on this . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Callan , B . : He said sometimes they had to have Easter egg hunts . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . That 's uh - - Callan , B . : Tell me what an Easter egg hunt is . Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No he didn 't . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Callan , B . : And so it was just kind of turning a couple valves ? Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Callan , B . : So if there was a cell leak or something like that , I guess all the cells - they had a housing around them . That 's why it was so hot inside the cells itself was because of the housing ? Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Callan , B . : How come they didn 't use housings on K - 29 ? Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had to go in there and pull the seals out of the compressors and close everything off . You know , make it where any of that gas was left in there couldn 't escape . Callan , B . : So you said pull the seals off the compressors . Was that every single compressor there ? Marrow , G . : I don 't - - right now I couldn 't say . I think it 's 12 compressors to a cell . Callan , B . : So we 're talking a lot of compressors there . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . And they had metal detectors . And they had machines . Stick your hands in and check you for radiation . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Callan , B . : So did they do pretty regular testing overall on people who worked at the facility ? Radiological testing and whatnot ? Marrow , G . : Oh , I 'm not familiar with that . I don 't - - Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Callan , B . : How long were the change houses out there ? Kind of in the earlier - - Marrow , G . : Yeah . How long did they have them ? Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Callan , B . : Did you yourself ever have to go to the dispensary to have them - - ? Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : Well , they 'd uh - - You had people like that . That try to , you know , do the job faster than what it 's supposed to be done and stuff like that . Callan , B . : What would say was your most challenging assignment that you had to do out there , either as an individual or as a group of people ? What was the most difficult thing you had to do while working in the K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Callan , B . : What would say was your most significant accomplishment as a group out there - - or as an individual ? Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Callan , B . : Gamble Valley . I 've heard that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Marrow , G . : Well , I 'd probably write about the plant at Oak Ridge . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up .

Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up . Description Rating Title Marrow , Guinn Description Oral History of Guinn Marrow , Interviewed by Bart Callan , May 17 , 2005 Audio Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / audio / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . mp3 Video Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / videojs / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . htm Transcript Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / Transcripts _ and _ photos / K - 25 / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . doc Collection Name K - 25 Related Collections COROH Interviewee Marrow , Guinn Interviewer Callan , Bart Type video Language English Subject Atomic Bomb ; Blacks ; Cattle cars ; Dormitories ; Housing ; K - 25 ; Manhattan Project , 1942 - 1945 ; Oak Ridge ( Tenn . ) ; X - 10 ; Y - 12 ; People Brantley , Jerry ; Brelant , Bud ; Hackworth , Jim ; Sawicki , Joe ; Truman , Harry ; Willis , Dick ; Winkle , Robert ( Bob ) ; Places Camp Blandon ( Fl . ) ; Clinch River ; Gamble Valley ; Jackson Square ; K - 29 ; Madisonville ( Ky . ) ; Monroe County ( Tenn . ) ; New York City ( N . Y . ) ; Paducah ( Ky . ) ; Polk County ( Tenn . ) ; Scarboro ( Tenn . ) ; Tellico Plains ( Tenn . ) ; Organizations / Programs J . A . Jones and Company ; MAN Program ; Tennessee Valley Authority ( TVA ) ; U . S . Army ; Union Carbide ; Things / Other Flattops ; Date of Original 2005 Format flv , doc , mp3 Length 1 hour , 17 minutes File Size 1 . 20 GB Source K - 25 Location of Original Oak Ridge Public Library Rights Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge , Oak Ridge , TN 37830 Disclaimer : " This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government . Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof , nor any of their employees , makes any warranty , express or implied , or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy , completeness , or usefulness of any information , apparatus , product , or process disclosed , or represents that process , or service by trade name , trademark , manufacturer , or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement , recommendation , or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof . The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of theDate : 5 / 17 / 05 Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Marrow , G . : Guinn Marrow . G - U - I - N - N M - A - R - R - O - W . Callan , B . : Okay . And how old are you , if you don 't mind me asking ? Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Okay . I worked for J . A . Jones on the railroad for - - ' til I was 18 years old and they hired me at Union Carbide . Callan , B . : Okay . And what kind of railroad construction were you doing ? Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , I was one of 11 kids in our family . My daddy raised us on a farm - - a rented farm , not ours - - and so all of us went to work as prior as we could to try to help the family out . Callan , B . : And so how did you first hear about work happening up here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . So we caught the truck the next morning and come up here , and they hired us right off . Callan , B . : And what did you first think about the place up here when you first arrived up here with all the activity going on ? Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . I started there and worked until March , the end of March of ' 90 . Callan , B . : Okay . So you were how old when you started working out here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Callan , B . : So did you pretty much see the facility come up from nothing from where they started laying the slab and put the whole thing together ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Callan , B . : Was it an impressive site to see , that building ? Callan , B . : Well , tell me about it . How big was it ? Marrow , G . : Well , the K - 25 building 's a quarter of a mile wide and a mile long . It 's in a U - shape . Callan , B . : And how many people were out there working on it ? Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Then later on they merged all these classifications into maintenance mechanics . That covers a lot of the different classifications , maintenance mechanic did . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . [ 1 : 23 : 41 ] Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Callan , B . : How many people would you say were working up on the operations floor at any given time ? Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - [ End of Tape 1 , Begin Tape 2 ] Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Can you give me that whole story again about how you started ? You were here , and - - Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . And so I come back and I worked there until end of March of 1990 . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Callan , B . : He told me some outrageous stories when we were at dinner about sneaking in whiskey and some of his adventures with that . I guess initially the secret city - - I guess there was prohibition , too , really . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . And a few people was working around there for TVA , but a lot of them quit that and started to work up here . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Callan , B . : Were you treated pretty well by your managers or the folks at Union Carbide ? Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Callan , B . : And on that day , what was it like the day that you found out or that you heard the bomb was dropped ? Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . When a young 18 - year - old kid was trained to do something , you know , they want to do it . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Marrow , G . : I don 't know . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Callan , B . : It sounds similar to something that - - Are you familiar with Jim Hackworth ? Marrow , G . : He 's the one that got me in on this . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Callan , B . : He said sometimes they had to have Easter egg hunts . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . That 's uh - - Callan , B . : Tell me what an Easter egg hunt is . Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No he didn 't . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Callan , B . : And so it was just kind of turning a couple valves ? Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Callan , B . : So if there was a cell leak or something like that , I guess all the cells - they had a housing around them . That 's why it was so hot inside the cells itself was because of the housing ? Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Callan , B . : How come they didn 't use housings on K - 29 ? Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had to go in there and pull the seals out of the compressors and close everything off . You know , make it where any of that gas was left in there couldn 't escape . Callan , B . : So you said pull the seals off the compressors . Was that every single compressor there ? Marrow , G . : I don 't - - right now I couldn 't say . I think it 's 12 compressors to a cell . Callan , B . : So we 're talking a lot of compressors there . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . And they had metal detectors . And they had machines . Stick your hands in and check you for radiation . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Callan , B . : So did they do pretty regular testing overall on people who worked at the facility ? Radiological testing and whatnot ? Marrow , G . : Oh , I 'm not familiar with that . I don 't - - Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Callan , B . : How long were the change houses out there ? Kind of in the earlier - - Marrow , G . : Yeah . How long did they have them ? Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Callan , B . : Did you yourself ever have to go to the dispensary to have them - - ? Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : Well , they 'd uh - - You had people like that . That try to , you know , do the job faster than what it 's supposed to be done and stuff like that . Callan , B . : What would say was your most challenging assignment that you had to do out there , either as an individual or as a group of people ? What was the most difficult thing you had to do while working in the K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Callan , B . : What would say was your most significant accomplishment as a group out there - - or as an individual ? Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Callan , B . : Gamble Valley . I 've heard that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Marrow , G . : Well , I 'd probably write about the plant at Oak Ridge . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up .

Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up . Description Rating Title Marrow , Guinn Description Oral History of Guinn Marrow , Interviewed by Bart Callan , May 17 , 2005 Audio Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / audio / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . mp3 Video Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / videojs / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . htm Transcript Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / Transcripts _ and _ photos / K - 25 / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . doc Collection Name K - 25 Related Collections COROH Interviewee Marrow , Guinn Interviewer Callan , Bart Type video Language English Subject Atomic Bomb ; Blacks ; Cattle cars ; Dormitories ; Housing ; K - 25 ; Manhattan Project , 1942 - 1945 ; Oak Ridge ( Tenn . ) ; X - 10 ; Y - 12 ; People Brantley , Jerry ; Brelant , Bud ; Hackworth , Jim ; Sawicki , Joe ; Truman , Harry ; Willis , Dick ; Winkle , Robert ( Bob ) ; Places Camp Blandon ( Fl . ) ; Clinch River ; Gamble Valley ; Jackson Square ; K - 29 ; Madisonville ( Ky . ) ; Monroe County ( Tenn . ) ; New York City ( N . Y . ) ; Paducah ( Ky . ) ; Polk County ( Tenn . ) ; Scarboro ( Tenn . ) ; Tellico Plains ( Tenn . ) ; Organizations / Programs J . A . Jones and Company ; MAN Program ; Tennessee Valley Authority ( TVA ) ; U . S . Army ; Union Carbide ; Things / Other Flattops ; Date of Original 2005 Format flv , doc , mp3 Length 1 hour , 17 minutes File Size 1 . 20 GB Source K - 25 Location of Original Oak Ridge Public Library Rights Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge , Oak Ridge , TN 37830 Disclaimer : " This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government . Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof , nor any of their employees , makes any warranty , express or implied , or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy , completeness , or usefulness of any information , apparatus , product , or process disclosed , or represents that process , or service by trade name , trademark , manufacturer , or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement , recommendation , or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof . The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of theDate : 5 / 17 / 05 Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Marrow , G . : Guinn Marrow . G - U - I - N - N M - A - R - R - O - W . Callan , B . : Okay . And how old are you , if you don 't mind me asking ? Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Okay . I worked for J . A . Jones on the railroad for - - ' til I was 18 years old and they hired me at Union Carbide . Callan , B . : Okay . And what kind of railroad construction were you doing ? Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , I was one of 11 kids in our family . My daddy raised us on a farm - - a rented farm , not ours - - and so all of us went to work as prior as we could to try to help the family out . Callan , B . : And so how did you first hear about work happening up here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . So we caught the truck the next morning and come up here , and they hired us right off . Callan , B . : And what did you first think about the place up here when you first arrived up here with all the activity going on ? Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . I started there and worked until March , the end of March of ' 90 . Callan , B . : Okay . So you were how old when you started working out here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Callan , B . : So did you pretty much see the facility come up from nothing from where they started laying the slab and put the whole thing together ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Callan , B . : Was it an impressive site to see , that building ? Callan , B . : Well , tell me about it . How big was it ? Marrow , G . : Well , the K - 25 building 's a quarter of a mile wide and a mile long . It 's in a U - shape . Callan , B . : And how many people were out there working on it ? Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Then later on they merged all these classifications into maintenance mechanics . That covers a lot of the different classifications , maintenance mechanic did . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . [ 1 : 23 : 41 ] Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Callan , B . : How many people would you say were working up on the operations floor at any given time ? Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - [ End of Tape 1 , Begin Tape 2 ] Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Can you give me that whole story again about how you started ? You were here , and - - Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . And so I come back and I worked there until end of March of 1990 . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Callan , B . : He told me some outrageous stories when we were at dinner about sneaking in whiskey and some of his adventures with that . I guess initially the secret city - - I guess there was prohibition , too , really . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . And a few people was working around there for TVA , but a lot of them quit that and started to work up here . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Callan , B . : Were you treated pretty well by your managers or the folks at Union Carbide ? Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Callan , B . : And on that day , what was it like the day that you found out or that you heard the bomb was dropped ? Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . When a young 18 - year - old kid was trained to do something , you know , they want to do it . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Marrow , G . : I don 't know . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Callan , B . : It sounds similar to something that - - Are you familiar with Jim Hackworth ? Marrow , G . : He 's the one that got me in on this . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Callan , B . : He said sometimes they had to have Easter egg hunts . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . That 's uh - - Callan , B . : Tell me what an Easter egg hunt is . Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No he didn 't . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Callan , B . : And so it was just kind of turning a couple valves ? Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Callan , B . : So if there was a cell leak or something like that , I guess all the cells - they had a housing around them . That 's why it was so hot inside the cells itself was because of the housing ? Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Callan , B . : How come they didn 't use housings on K - 29 ? Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had to go in there and pull the seals out of the compressors and close everything off . You know , make it where any of that gas was left in there couldn 't escape . Callan , B . : So you said pull the seals off the compressors . Was that every single compressor there ? Marrow , G . : I don 't - - right now I couldn 't say . I think it 's 12 compressors to a cell . Callan , B . : So we 're talking a lot of compressors there . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . And they had metal detectors . And they had machines . Stick your hands in and check you for radiation . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Callan , B . : So did they do pretty regular testing overall on people who worked at the facility ? Radiological testing and whatnot ? Marrow , G . : Oh , I 'm not familiar with that . I don 't - - Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Callan , B . : How long were the change houses out there ? Kind of in the earlier - - Marrow , G . : Yeah . How long did they have them ? Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Callan , B . : Did you yourself ever have to go to the dispensary to have them - - ? Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : Well , they 'd uh - - You had people like that . That try to , you know , do the job faster than what it 's supposed to be done and stuff like that . Callan , B . : What would say was your most challenging assignment that you had to do out there , either as an individual or as a group of people ? What was the most difficult thing you had to do while working in the K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Callan , B . : What would say was your most significant accomplishment as a group out there - - or as an individual ? Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Callan , B . : Gamble Valley . I 've heard that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Marrow , G . : Well , I 'd probably write about the plant at Oak Ridge . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up .

Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up . Description Rating Title Marrow , Guinn Description Oral History of Guinn Marrow , Interviewed by Bart Callan , May 17 , 2005 Audio Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / audio / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . mp3 Video Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / videojs / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . htm Transcript Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / Transcripts _ and _ photos / K - 25 / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . doc Collection Name K - 25 Related Collections COROH Interviewee Marrow , Guinn Interviewer Callan , Bart Type video Language English Subject Atomic Bomb ; Blacks ; Cattle cars ; Dormitories ; Housing ; K - 25 ; Manhattan Project , 1942 - 1945 ; Oak Ridge ( Tenn . ) ; X - 10 ; Y - 12 ; People Brantley , Jerry ; Brelant , Bud ; Hackworth , Jim ; Sawicki , Joe ; Truman , Harry ; Willis , Dick ; Winkle , Robert ( Bob ) ; Places Camp Blandon ( Fl . ) ; Clinch River ; Gamble Valley ; Jackson Square ; K - 29 ; Madisonville ( Ky . ) ; Monroe County ( Tenn . ) ; New York City ( N . Y . ) ; Paducah ( Ky . ) ; Polk County ( Tenn . ) ; Scarboro ( Tenn . ) ; Tellico Plains ( Tenn . ) ; Organizations / Programs J . A . Jones and Company ; MAN Program ; Tennessee Valley Authority ( TVA ) ; U . S . Army ; Union Carbide ; Things / Other Flattops ; Date of Original 2005 Format flv , doc , mp3 Length 1 hour , 17 minutes File Size 1 . 20 GB Source K - 25 Location of Original Oak Ridge Public Library Rights Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge , Oak Ridge , TN 37830 Disclaimer : " This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government . Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof , nor any of their employees , makes any warranty , express or implied , or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy , completeness , or usefulness of any information , apparatus , product , or process disclosed , or represents that process , or service by trade name , trademark , manufacturer , or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement , recommendation , or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof . The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of theDate : 5 / 17 / 05 Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Marrow , G . : Guinn Marrow . G - U - I - N - N M - A - R - R - O - W . Callan , B . : Okay . And how old are you , if you don 't mind me asking ? Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Okay . I worked for J . A . Jones on the railroad for - - ' til I was 18 years old and they hired me at Union Carbide . Callan , B . : Okay . And what kind of railroad construction were you doing ? Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , I was one of 11 kids in our family . My daddy raised us on a farm - - a rented farm , not ours - - and so all of us went to work as prior as we could to try to help the family out . Callan , B . : And so how did you first hear about work happening up here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . So we caught the truck the next morning and come up here , and they hired us right off . Callan , B . : And what did you first think about the place up here when you first arrived up here with all the activity going on ? Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . I started there and worked until March , the end of March of ' 90 . Callan , B . : Okay . So you were how old when you started working out here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Callan , B . : So did you pretty much see the facility come up from nothing from where they started laying the slab and put the whole thing together ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Callan , B . : Was it an impressive site to see , that building ? Callan , B . : Well , tell me about it . How big was it ? Marrow , G . : Well , the K - 25 building 's a quarter of a mile wide and a mile long . It 's in a U - shape . Callan , B . : And how many people were out there working on it ? Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Then later on they merged all these classifications into maintenance mechanics . That covers a lot of the different classifications , maintenance mechanic did . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . [ 1 : 23 : 41 ] Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Callan , B . : How many people would you say were working up on the operations floor at any given time ? Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - [ End of Tape 1 , Begin Tape 2 ] Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Can you give me that whole story again about how you started ? You were here , and - - Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . And so I come back and I worked there until end of March of 1990 . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Callan , B . : He told me some outrageous stories when we were at dinner about sneaking in whiskey and some of his adventures with that . I guess initially the secret city - - I guess there was prohibition , too , really . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . And a few people was working around there for TVA , but a lot of them quit that and started to work up here . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Callan , B . : Were you treated pretty well by your managers or the folks at Union Carbide ? Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Callan , B . : And on that day , what was it like the day that you found out or that you heard the bomb was dropped ? Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . When a young 18 - year - old kid was trained to do something , you know , they want to do it . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Marrow , G . : I don 't know . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Callan , B . : It sounds similar to something that - - Are you familiar with Jim Hackworth ? Marrow , G . : He 's the one that got me in on this . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Callan , B . : He said sometimes they had to have Easter egg hunts . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . That 's uh - - Callan , B . : Tell me what an Easter egg hunt is . Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No he didn 't . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Callan , B . : And so it was just kind of turning a couple valves ? Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Callan , B . : So if there was a cell leak or something like that , I guess all the cells - they had a housing around them . That 's why it was so hot inside the cells itself was because of the housing ? Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Callan , B . : How come they didn 't use housings on K - 29 ? Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had to go in there and pull the seals out of the compressors and close everything off . You know , make it where any of that gas was left in there couldn 't escape . Callan , B . : So you said pull the seals off the compressors . Was that every single compressor there ? Marrow , G . : I don 't - - right now I couldn 't say . I think it 's 12 compressors to a cell . Callan , B . : So we 're talking a lot of compressors there . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . And they had metal detectors . And they had machines . Stick your hands in and check you for radiation . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Callan , B . : So did they do pretty regular testing overall on people who worked at the facility ? Radiological testing and whatnot ? Marrow , G . : Oh , I 'm not familiar with that . I don 't - - Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Callan , B . : How long were the change houses out there ? Kind of in the earlier - - Marrow , G . : Yeah . How long did they have them ? Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Callan , B . : Did you yourself ever have to go to the dispensary to have them - - ? Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : Well , they 'd uh - - You had people like that . That try to , you know , do the job faster than what it 's supposed to be done and stuff like that . Callan , B . : What would say was your most challenging assignment that you had to do out there , either as an individual or as a group of people ? What was the most difficult thing you had to do while working in the K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Callan , B . : What would say was your most significant accomplishment as a group out there - - or as an individual ? Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Callan , B . : Gamble Valley . I 've heard that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Marrow , G . : Well , I 'd probably write about the plant at Oak Ridge . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up .

Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up . Description Rating Title Marrow , Guinn Description Oral History of Guinn Marrow , Interviewed by Bart Callan , May 17 , 2005 Audio Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / audio / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . mp3 Video Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / videojs / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . htm Transcript Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / Transcripts _ and _ photos / K - 25 / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . doc Collection Name K - 25 Related Collections COROH Interviewee Marrow , Guinn Interviewer Callan , Bart Type video Language English Subject Atomic Bomb ; Blacks ; Cattle cars ; Dormitories ; Housing ; K - 25 ; Manhattan Project , 1942 - 1945 ; Oak Ridge ( Tenn . ) ; X - 10 ; Y - 12 ; People Brantley , Jerry ; Brelant , Bud ; Hackworth , Jim ; Sawicki , Joe ; Truman , Harry ; Willis , Dick ; Winkle , Robert ( Bob ) ; Places Camp Blandon ( Fl . ) ; Clinch River ; Gamble Valley ; Jackson Square ; K - 29 ; Madisonville ( Ky . ) ; Monroe County ( Tenn . ) ; New York City ( N . Y . ) ; Paducah ( Ky . ) ; Polk County ( Tenn . ) ; Scarboro ( Tenn . ) ; Tellico Plains ( Tenn . ) ; Organizations / Programs J . A . Jones and Company ; MAN Program ; Tennessee Valley Authority ( TVA ) ; U . S . Army ; Union Carbide ; Things / Other Flattops ; Date of Original 2005 Format flv , doc , mp3 Length 1 hour , 17 minutes File Size 1 . 20 GB Source K - 25 Location of Original Oak Ridge Public Library Rights Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge , Oak Ridge , TN 37830 Disclaimer : " This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government . Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof , nor any of their employees , makes any warranty , express or implied , or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy , completeness , or usefulness of any information , apparatus , product , or process disclosed , or represents that process , or service by trade name , trademark , manufacturer , or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement , recommendation , or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof . The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of theDate : 5 / 17 / 05 Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Marrow , G . : Guinn Marrow . G - U - I - N - N M - A - R - R - O - W . Callan , B . : Okay . And how old are you , if you don 't mind me asking ? Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Okay . I worked for J . A . Jones on the railroad for - - ' til I was 18 years old and they hired me at Union Carbide . Callan , B . : Okay . And what kind of railroad construction were you doing ? Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , I was one of 11 kids in our family . My daddy raised us on a farm - - a rented farm , not ours - - and so all of us went to work as prior as we could to try to help the family out . Callan , B . : And so how did you first hear about work happening up here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . So we caught the truck the next morning and come up here , and they hired us right off . Callan , B . : And what did you first think about the place up here when you first arrived up here with all the activity going on ? Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . I started there and worked until March , the end of March of ' 90 . Callan , B . : Okay . So you were how old when you started working out here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Callan , B . : So did you pretty much see the facility come up from nothing from where they started laying the slab and put the whole thing together ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Callan , B . : Was it an impressive site to see , that building ? Callan , B . : Well , tell me about it . How big was it ? Marrow , G . : Well , the K - 25 building 's a quarter of a mile wide and a mile long . It 's in a U - shape . Callan , B . : And how many people were out there working on it ? Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Then later on they merged all these classifications into maintenance mechanics . That covers a lot of the different classifications , maintenance mechanic did . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . [ 1 : 23 : 41 ] Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Callan , B . : How many people would you say were working up on the operations floor at any given time ? Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - [ End of Tape 1 , Begin Tape 2 ] Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Can you give me that whole story again about how you started ? You were here , and - - Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . And so I come back and I worked there until end of March of 1990 . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Callan , B . : He told me some outrageous stories when we were at dinner about sneaking in whiskey and some of his adventures with that . I guess initially the secret city - - I guess there was prohibition , too , really . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . And a few people was working around there for TVA , but a lot of them quit that and started to work up here . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Callan , B . : Were you treated pretty well by your managers or the folks at Union Carbide ? Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Callan , B . : And on that day , what was it like the day that you found out or that you heard the bomb was dropped ? Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . When a young 18 - year - old kid was trained to do something , you know , they want to do it . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Marrow , G . : I don 't know . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Callan , B . : It sounds similar to something that - - Are you familiar with Jim Hackworth ? Marrow , G . : He 's the one that got me in on this . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Callan , B . : He said sometimes they had to have Easter egg hunts . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . That 's uh - - Callan , B . : Tell me what an Easter egg hunt is . Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No he didn 't . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Callan , B . : And so it was just kind of turning a couple valves ? Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Callan , B . : So if there was a cell leak or something like that , I guess all the cells - they had a housing around them . That 's why it was so hot inside the cells itself was because of the housing ? Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Callan , B . : How come they didn 't use housings on K - 29 ? Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had to go in there and pull the seals out of the compressors and close everything off . You know , make it where any of that gas was left in there couldn 't escape . Callan , B . : So you said pull the seals off the compressors . Was that every single compressor there ? Marrow , G . : I don 't - - right now I couldn 't say . I think it 's 12 compressors to a cell . Callan , B . : So we 're talking a lot of compressors there . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . And they had metal detectors . And they had machines . Stick your hands in and check you for radiation . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Callan , B . : So did they do pretty regular testing overall on people who worked at the facility ? Radiological testing and whatnot ? Marrow , G . : Oh , I 'm not familiar with that . I don 't - - Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Callan , B . : How long were the change houses out there ? Kind of in the earlier - - Marrow , G . : Yeah . How long did they have them ? Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Callan , B . : Did you yourself ever have to go to the dispensary to have them - - ? Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : Well , they 'd uh - - You had people like that . That try to , you know , do the job faster than what it 's supposed to be done and stuff like that . Callan , B . : What would say was your most challenging assignment that you had to do out there , either as an individual or as a group of people ? What was the most difficult thing you had to do while working in the K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Callan , B . : What would say was your most significant accomplishment as a group out there - - or as an individual ? Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Callan , B . : Gamble Valley . I 've heard that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Marrow , G . : Well , I 'd probably write about the plant at Oak Ridge . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up .

Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up . Description Rating Title Marrow , Guinn Description Oral History of Guinn Marrow , Interviewed by Bart Callan , May 17 , 2005 Audio Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / audio / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . mp3 Video Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / videojs / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . htm Transcript Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / Transcripts _ and _ photos / K - 25 / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . doc Collection Name K - 25 Related Collections COROH Interviewee Marrow , Guinn Interviewer Callan , Bart Type video Language English Subject Atomic Bomb ; Blacks ; Cattle cars ; Dormitories ; Housing ; K - 25 ; Manhattan Project , 1942 - 1945 ; Oak Ridge ( Tenn . ) ; X - 10 ; Y - 12 ; People Brantley , Jerry ; Brelant , Bud ; Hackworth , Jim ; Sawicki , Joe ; Truman , Harry ; Willis , Dick ; Winkle , Robert ( Bob ) ; Places Camp Blandon ( Fl . ) ; Clinch River ; Gamble Valley ; Jackson Square ; K - 29 ; Madisonville ( Ky . ) ; Monroe County ( Tenn . ) ; New York City ( N . Y . ) ; Paducah ( Ky . ) ; Polk County ( Tenn . ) ; Scarboro ( Tenn . ) ; Tellico Plains ( Tenn . ) ; Organizations / Programs J . A . Jones and Company ; MAN Program ; Tennessee Valley Authority ( TVA ) ; U . S . Army ; Union Carbide ; Things / Other Flattops ; Date of Original 2005 Format flv , doc , mp3 Length 1 hour , 17 minutes File Size 1 . 20 GB Source K - 25 Location of Original Oak Ridge Public Library Rights Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge , Oak Ridge , TN 37830 Disclaimer : " This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government . Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof , nor any of their employees , makes any warranty , express or implied , or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy , completeness , or usefulness of any information , apparatus , product , or process disclosed , or represents that process , or service by trade name , trademark , manufacturer , or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement , recommendation , or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof . The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of theDate : 5 / 17 / 05 Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Marrow , G . : Guinn Marrow . G - U - I - N - N M - A - R - R - O - W . Callan , B . : Okay . And how old are you , if you don 't mind me asking ? Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Okay . I worked for J . A . Jones on the railroad for - - ' til I was 18 years old and they hired me at Union Carbide . Callan , B . : Okay . And what kind of railroad construction were you doing ? Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , I was one of 11 kids in our family . My daddy raised us on a farm - - a rented farm , not ours - - and so all of us went to work as prior as we could to try to help the family out . Callan , B . : And so how did you first hear about work happening up here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . So we caught the truck the next morning and come up here , and they hired us right off . Callan , B . : And what did you first think about the place up here when you first arrived up here with all the activity going on ? Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . I started there and worked until March , the end of March of ' 90 . Callan , B . : Okay . So you were how old when you started working out here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Callan , B . : So did you pretty much see the facility come up from nothing from where they started laying the slab and put the whole thing together ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Callan , B . : Was it an impressive site to see , that building ? Callan , B . : Well , tell me about it . How big was it ? Marrow , G . : Well , the K - 25 building 's a quarter of a mile wide and a mile long . It 's in a U - shape . Callan , B . : And how many people were out there working on it ? Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Then later on they merged all these classifications into maintenance mechanics . That covers a lot of the different classifications , maintenance mechanic did . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . [ 1 : 23 : 41 ] Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Callan , B . : How many people would you say were working up on the operations floor at any given time ? Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - [ End of Tape 1 , Begin Tape 2 ] Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Can you give me that whole story again about how you started ? You were here , and - - Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . And so I come back and I worked there until end of March of 1990 . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Callan , B . : He told me some outrageous stories when we were at dinner about sneaking in whiskey and some of his adventures with that . I guess initially the secret city - - I guess there was prohibition , too , really . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . And a few people was working around there for TVA , but a lot of them quit that and started to work up here . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Callan , B . : Were you treated pretty well by your managers or the folks at Union Carbide ? Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Callan , B . : And on that day , what was it like the day that you found out or that you heard the bomb was dropped ? Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . When a young 18 - year - old kid was trained to do something , you know , they want to do it . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Marrow , G . : I don 't know . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Callan , B . : It sounds similar to something that - - Are you familiar with Jim Hackworth ? Marrow , G . : He 's the one that got me in on this . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Callan , B . : He said sometimes they had to have Easter egg hunts . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . That 's uh - - Callan , B . : Tell me what an Easter egg hunt is . Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No he didn 't . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Callan , B . : And so it was just kind of turning a couple valves ? Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Callan , B . : So if there was a cell leak or something like that , I guess all the cells - they had a housing around them . That 's why it was so hot inside the cells itself was because of the housing ? Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Callan , B . : How come they didn 't use housings on K - 29 ? Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had to go in there and pull the seals out of the compressors and close everything off . You know , make it where any of that gas was left in there couldn 't escape . Callan , B . : So you said pull the seals off the compressors . Was that every single compressor there ? Marrow , G . : I don 't - - right now I couldn 't say . I think it 's 12 compressors to a cell . Callan , B . : So we 're talking a lot of compressors there . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . And they had metal detectors . And they had machines . Stick your hands in and check you for radiation . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Callan , B . : So did they do pretty regular testing overall on people who worked at the facility ? Radiological testing and whatnot ? Marrow , G . : Oh , I 'm not familiar with that . I don 't - - Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Callan , B . : How long were the change houses out there ? Kind of in the earlier - - Marrow , G . : Yeah . How long did they have them ? Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Callan , B . : Did you yourself ever have to go to the dispensary to have them - - ? Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : Well , they 'd uh - - You had people like that . That try to , you know , do the job faster than what it 's supposed to be done and stuff like that . Callan , B . : What would say was your most challenging assignment that you had to do out there , either as an individual or as a group of people ? What was the most difficult thing you had to do while working in the K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Callan , B . : What would say was your most significant accomplishment as a group out there - - or as an individual ? Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Callan , B . : Gamble Valley . I 've heard that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Marrow , G . : Well , I 'd probably write about the plant at Oak Ridge . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up .

Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up . Description Rating Title Marrow , Guinn Description Oral History of Guinn Marrow , Interviewed by Bart Callan , May 17 , 2005 Audio Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / audio / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . mp3 Video Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / videojs / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . htm Transcript Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / Transcripts _ and _ photos / K - 25 / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . doc Collection Name K - 25 Related Collections COROH Interviewee Marrow , Guinn Interviewer Callan , Bart Type video Language English Subject Atomic Bomb ; Blacks ; Cattle cars ; Dormitories ; Housing ; K - 25 ; Manhattan Project , 1942 - 1945 ; Oak Ridge ( Tenn . ) ; X - 10 ; Y - 12 ; People Brantley , Jerry ; Brelant , Bud ; Hackworth , Jim ; Sawicki , Joe ; Truman , Harry ; Willis , Dick ; Winkle , Robert ( Bob ) ; Places Camp Blandon ( Fl . ) ; Clinch River ; Gamble Valley ; Jackson Square ; K - 29 ; Madisonville ( Ky . ) ; Monroe County ( Tenn . ) ; New York City ( N . Y . ) ; Paducah ( Ky . ) ; Polk County ( Tenn . ) ; Scarboro ( Tenn . ) ; Tellico Plains ( Tenn . ) ; Organizations / Programs J . A . Jones and Company ; MAN Program ; Tennessee Valley Authority ( TVA ) ; U . S . Army ; Union Carbide ; Things / Other Flattops ; Date of Original 2005 Format flv , doc , mp3 Length 1 hour , 17 minutes File Size 1 . 20 GB Source K - 25 Location of Original Oak Ridge Public Library Rights Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge , Oak Ridge , TN 37830 Disclaimer : " This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government . Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof , nor any of their employees , makes any warranty , express or implied , or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy , completeness , or usefulness of any information , apparatus , product , or process disclosed , or represents that process , or service by trade name , trademark , manufacturer , or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement , recommendation , or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof . The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of theDate : 5 / 17 / 05 Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Marrow , G . : Guinn Marrow . G - U - I - N - N M - A - R - R - O - W . Callan , B . : Okay . And how old are you , if you don 't mind me asking ? Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Okay . I worked for J . A . Jones on the railroad for - - ' til I was 18 years old and they hired me at Union Carbide . Callan , B . : Okay . And what kind of railroad construction were you doing ? Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , I was one of 11 kids in our family . My daddy raised us on a farm - - a rented farm , not ours - - and so all of us went to work as prior as we could to try to help the family out . Callan , B . : And so how did you first hear about work happening up here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . So we caught the truck the next morning and come up here , and they hired us right off . Callan , B . : And what did you first think about the place up here when you first arrived up here with all the activity going on ? Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . I started there and worked until March , the end of March of ' 90 . Callan , B . : Okay . So you were how old when you started working out here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Callan , B . : So did you pretty much see the facility come up from nothing from where they started laying the slab and put the whole thing together ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Callan , B . : Was it an impressive site to see , that building ? Callan , B . : Well , tell me about it . How big was it ? Marrow , G . : Well , the K - 25 building 's a quarter of a mile wide and a mile long . It 's in a U - shape . Callan , B . : And how many people were out there working on it ? Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Then later on they merged all these classifications into maintenance mechanics . That covers a lot of the different classifications , maintenance mechanic did . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . [ 1 : 23 : 41 ] Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Callan , B . : How many people would you say were working up on the operations floor at any given time ? Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - [ End of Tape 1 , Begin Tape 2 ] Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Can you give me that whole story again about how you started ? You were here , and - - Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . And so I come back and I worked there until end of March of 1990 . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Callan , B . : He told me some outrageous stories when we were at dinner about sneaking in whiskey and some of his adventures with that . I guess initially the secret city - - I guess there was prohibition , too , really . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . And a few people was working around there for TVA , but a lot of them quit that and started to work up here . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Callan , B . : Were you treated pretty well by your managers or the folks at Union Carbide ? Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Callan , B . : And on that day , what was it like the day that you found out or that you heard the bomb was dropped ? Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . When a young 18 - year - old kid was trained to do something , you know , they want to do it . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Marrow , G . : I don 't know . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Callan , B . : It sounds similar to something that - - Are you familiar with Jim Hackworth ? Marrow , G . : He 's the one that got me in on this . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Callan , B . : He said sometimes they had to have Easter egg hunts . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . That 's uh - - Callan , B . : Tell me what an Easter egg hunt is . Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No he didn 't . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Callan , B . : And so it was just kind of turning a couple valves ? Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Callan , B . : So if there was a cell leak or something like that , I guess all the cells - they had a housing around them . That 's why it was so hot inside the cells itself was because of the housing ? Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Callan , B . : How come they didn 't use housings on K - 29 ? Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had to go in there and pull the seals out of the compressors and close everything off . You know , make it where any of that gas was left in there couldn 't escape . Callan , B . : So you said pull the seals off the compressors . Was that every single compressor there ? Marrow , G . : I don 't - - right now I couldn 't say . I think it 's 12 compressors to a cell . Callan , B . : So we 're talking a lot of compressors there . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . And they had metal detectors . And they had machines . Stick your hands in and check you for radiation . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Callan , B . : So did they do pretty regular testing overall on people who worked at the facility ? Radiological testing and whatnot ? Marrow , G . : Oh , I 'm not familiar with that . I don 't - - Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Callan , B . : How long were the change houses out there ? Kind of in the earlier - - Marrow , G . : Yeah . How long did they have them ? Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Callan , B . : Did you yourself ever have to go to the dispensary to have them - - ? Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : Well , they 'd uh - - You had people like that . That try to , you know , do the job faster than what it 's supposed to be done and stuff like that . Callan , B . : What would say was your most challenging assignment that you had to do out there , either as an individual or as a group of people ? What was the most difficult thing you had to do while working in the K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Callan , B . : What would say was your most significant accomplishment as a group out there - - or as an individual ? Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Callan , B . : Gamble Valley . I 've heard that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Marrow , G . : Well , I 'd probably write about the plant at Oak Ridge . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up .

Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up . Description Rating Title Marrow , Guinn Description Oral History of Guinn Marrow , Interviewed by Bart Callan , May 17 , 2005 Audio Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / audio / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . mp3 Video Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / videojs / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . htm Transcript Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / Transcripts _ and _ photos / K - 25 / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . doc Collection Name K - 25 Related Collections COROH Interviewee Marrow , Guinn Interviewer Callan , Bart Type video Language English Subject Atomic Bomb ; Blacks ; Cattle cars ; Dormitories ; Housing ; K - 25 ; Manhattan Project , 1942 - 1945 ; Oak Ridge ( Tenn . ) ; X - 10 ; Y - 12 ; People Brantley , Jerry ; Brelant , Bud ; Hackworth , Jim ; Sawicki , Joe ; Truman , Harry ; Willis , Dick ; Winkle , Robert ( Bob ) ; Places Camp Blandon ( Fl . ) ; Clinch River ; Gamble Valley ; Jackson Square ; K - 29 ; Madisonville ( Ky . ) ; Monroe County ( Tenn . ) ; New York City ( N . Y . ) ; Paducah ( Ky . ) ; Polk County ( Tenn . ) ; Scarboro ( Tenn . ) ; Tellico Plains ( Tenn . ) ; Organizations / Programs J . A . Jones and Company ; MAN Program ; Tennessee Valley Authority ( TVA ) ; U . S . Army ; Union Carbide ; Things / Other Flattops ; Date of Original 2005 Format flv , doc , mp3 Length 1 hour , 17 minutes File Size 1 . 20 GB Source K - 25 Location of Original Oak Ridge Public Library Rights Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge , Oak Ridge , TN 37830 Disclaimer : " This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government . Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof , nor any of their employees , makes any warranty , express or implied , or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy , completeness , or usefulness of any information , apparatus , product , or process disclosed , or represents that process , or service by trade name , trademark , manufacturer , or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement , recommendation , or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof . The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of theDate : 5 / 17 / 05 Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Marrow , G . : Guinn Marrow . G - U - I - N - N M - A - R - R - O - W . Callan , B . : Okay . And how old are you , if you don 't mind me asking ? Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Okay . I worked for J . A . Jones on the railroad for - - ' til I was 18 years old and they hired me at Union Carbide . Callan , B . : Okay . And what kind of railroad construction were you doing ? Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , I was one of 11 kids in our family . My daddy raised us on a farm - - a rented farm , not ours - - and so all of us went to work as prior as we could to try to help the family out . Callan , B . : And so how did you first hear about work happening up here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . So we caught the truck the next morning and come up here , and they hired us right off . Callan , B . : And what did you first think about the place up here when you first arrived up here with all the activity going on ? Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . I started there and worked until March , the end of March of ' 90 . Callan , B . : Okay . So you were how old when you started working out here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Callan , B . : So did you pretty much see the facility come up from nothing from where they started laying the slab and put the whole thing together ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Callan , B . : Was it an impressive site to see , that building ? Callan , B . : Well , tell me about it . How big was it ? Marrow , G . : Well , the K - 25 building 's a quarter of a mile wide and a mile long . It 's in a U - shape . Callan , B . : And how many people were out there working on it ? Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Then later on they merged all these classifications into maintenance mechanics . That covers a lot of the different classifications , maintenance mechanic did . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . [ 1 : 23 : 41 ] Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Callan , B . : How many people would you say were working up on the operations floor at any given time ? Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - [ End of Tape 1 , Begin Tape 2 ] Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Can you give me that whole story again about how you started ? You were here , and - - Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . And so I come back and I worked there until end of March of 1990 . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Callan , B . : He told me some outrageous stories when we were at dinner about sneaking in whiskey and some of his adventures with that . I guess initially the secret city - - I guess there was prohibition , too , really . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . And a few people was working around there for TVA , but a lot of them quit that and started to work up here . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Callan , B . : Were you treated pretty well by your managers or the folks at Union Carbide ? Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Callan , B . : And on that day , what was it like the day that you found out or that you heard the bomb was dropped ? Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . When a young 18 - year - old kid was trained to do something , you know , they want to do it . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Marrow , G . : I don 't know . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Callan , B . : It sounds similar to something that - - Are you familiar with Jim Hackworth ? Marrow , G . : He 's the one that got me in on this . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Callan , B . : He said sometimes they had to have Easter egg hunts . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . That 's uh - - Callan , B . : Tell me what an Easter egg hunt is . Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No he didn 't . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Callan , B . : And so it was just kind of turning a couple valves ? Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Callan , B . : So if there was a cell leak or something like that , I guess all the cells - they had a housing around them . That 's why it was so hot inside the cells itself was because of the housing ? Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Callan , B . : How come they didn 't use housings on K - 29 ? Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had to go in there and pull the seals out of the compressors and close everything off . You know , make it where any of that gas was left in there couldn 't escape . Callan , B . : So you said pull the seals off the compressors . Was that every single compressor there ? Marrow , G . : I don 't - - right now I couldn 't say . I think it 's 12 compressors to a cell . Callan , B . : So we 're talking a lot of compressors there . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . And they had metal detectors . And they had machines . Stick your hands in and check you for radiation . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Callan , B . : So did they do pretty regular testing overall on people who worked at the facility ? Radiological testing and whatnot ? Marrow , G . : Oh , I 'm not familiar with that . I don 't - - Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Callan , B . : How long were the change houses out there ? Kind of in the earlier - - Marrow , G . : Yeah . How long did they have them ? Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Callan , B . : Did you yourself ever have to go to the dispensary to have them - - ? Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : Well , they 'd uh - - You had people like that . That try to , you know , do the job faster than what it 's supposed to be done and stuff like that . Callan , B . : What would say was your most challenging assignment that you had to do out there , either as an individual or as a group of people ? What was the most difficult thing you had to do while working in the K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Callan , B . : What would say was your most significant accomplishment as a group out there - - or as an individual ? Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Callan , B . : Gamble Valley . I 've heard that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Marrow , G . : Well , I 'd probably write about the plant at Oak Ridge . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up .

Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up . Description Rating Title Marrow , Guinn Description Oral History of Guinn Marrow , Interviewed by Bart Callan , May 17 , 2005 Audio Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / audio / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . mp3 Video Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / videojs / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . htm Transcript Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / Transcripts _ and _ photos / K - 25 / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . doc Collection Name K - 25 Related Collections COROH Interviewee Marrow , Guinn Interviewer Callan , Bart Type video Language English Subject Atomic Bomb ; Blacks ; Cattle cars ; Dormitories ; Housing ; K - 25 ; Manhattan Project , 1942 - 1945 ; Oak Ridge ( Tenn . ) ; X - 10 ; Y - 12 ; People Brantley , Jerry ; Brelant , Bud ; Hackworth , Jim ; Sawicki , Joe ; Truman , Harry ; Willis , Dick ; Winkle , Robert ( Bob ) ; Places Camp Blandon ( Fl . ) ; Clinch River ; Gamble Valley ; Jackson Square ; K - 29 ; Madisonville ( Ky . ) ; Monroe County ( Tenn . ) ; New York City ( N . Y . ) ; Paducah ( Ky . ) ; Polk County ( Tenn . ) ; Scarboro ( Tenn . ) ; Tellico Plains ( Tenn . ) ; Organizations / Programs J . A . Jones and Company ; MAN Program ; Tennessee Valley Authority ( TVA ) ; U . S . Army ; Union Carbide ; Things / Other Flattops ; Date of Original 2005 Format flv , doc , mp3 Length 1 hour , 17 minutes File Size 1 . 20 GB Source K - 25 Location of Original Oak Ridge Public Library Rights Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge , Oak Ridge , TN 37830 Disclaimer : " This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government . Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof , nor any of their employees , makes any warranty , express or implied , or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy , completeness , or usefulness of any information , apparatus , product , or process disclosed , or represents that process , or service by trade name , trademark , manufacturer , or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement , recommendation , or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof . The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of theDate : 5 / 17 / 05 Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Marrow , G . : Guinn Marrow . G - U - I - N - N M - A - R - R - O - W . Callan , B . : Okay . And how old are you , if you don 't mind me asking ? Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Okay . I worked for J . A . Jones on the railroad for - - ' til I was 18 years old and they hired me at Union Carbide . Callan , B . : Okay . And what kind of railroad construction were you doing ? Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , I was one of 11 kids in our family . My daddy raised us on a farm - - a rented farm , not ours - - and so all of us went to work as prior as we could to try to help the family out . Callan , B . : And so how did you first hear about work happening up here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . So we caught the truck the next morning and come up here , and they hired us right off . Callan , B . : And what did you first think about the place up here when you first arrived up here with all the activity going on ? Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . I started there and worked until March , the end of March of ' 90 . Callan , B . : Okay . So you were how old when you started working out here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Callan , B . : So did you pretty much see the facility come up from nothing from where they started laying the slab and put the whole thing together ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Callan , B . : Was it an impressive site to see , that building ? Callan , B . : Well , tell me about it . How big was it ? Marrow , G . : Well , the K - 25 building 's a quarter of a mile wide and a mile long . It 's in a U - shape . Callan , B . : And how many people were out there working on it ? Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Then later on they merged all these classifications into maintenance mechanics . That covers a lot of the different classifications , maintenance mechanic did . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . [ 1 : 23 : 41 ] Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Callan , B . : How many people would you say were working up on the operations floor at any given time ? Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - [ End of Tape 1 , Begin Tape 2 ] Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Can you give me that whole story again about how you started ? You were here , and - - Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . And so I come back and I worked there until end of March of 1990 . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Callan , B . : He told me some outrageous stories when we were at dinner about sneaking in whiskey and some of his adventures with that . I guess initially the secret city - - I guess there was prohibition , too , really . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . And a few people was working around there for TVA , but a lot of them quit that and started to work up here . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Callan , B . : Were you treated pretty well by your managers or the folks at Union Carbide ? Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Callan , B . : And on that day , what was it like the day that you found out or that you heard the bomb was dropped ? Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . When a young 18 - year - old kid was trained to do something , you know , they want to do it . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Marrow , G . : I don 't know . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Callan , B . : It sounds similar to something that - - Are you familiar with Jim Hackworth ? Marrow , G . : He 's the one that got me in on this . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Callan , B . : He said sometimes they had to have Easter egg hunts . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . That 's uh - - Callan , B . : Tell me what an Easter egg hunt is . Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No he didn 't . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Callan , B . : And so it was just kind of turning a couple valves ? Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Callan , B . : So if there was a cell leak or something like that , I guess all the cells - they had a housing around them . That 's why it was so hot inside the cells itself was because of the housing ? Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Callan , B . : How come they didn 't use housings on K - 29 ? Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had to go in there and pull the seals out of the compressors and close everything off . You know , make it where any of that gas was left in there couldn 't escape . Callan , B . : So you said pull the seals off the compressors . Was that every single compressor there ? Marrow , G . : I don 't - - right now I couldn 't say . I think it 's 12 compressors to a cell . Callan , B . : So we 're talking a lot of compressors there . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . And they had metal detectors . And they had machines . Stick your hands in and check you for radiation . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Callan , B . : So did they do pretty regular testing overall on people who worked at the facility ? Radiological testing and whatnot ? Marrow , G . : Oh , I 'm not familiar with that . I don 't - - Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Callan , B . : How long were the change houses out there ? Kind of in the earlier - - Marrow , G . : Yeah . How long did they have them ? Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Callan , B . : Did you yourself ever have to go to the dispensary to have them - - ? Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : Well , they 'd uh - - You had people like that . That try to , you know , do the job faster than what it 's supposed to be done and stuff like that . Callan , B . : What would say was your most challenging assignment that you had to do out there , either as an individual or as a group of people ? What was the most difficult thing you had to do while working in the K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Callan , B . : What would say was your most significant accomplishment as a group out there - - or as an individual ? Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Callan , B . : Gamble Valley . I 've heard that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Marrow , G . : Well , I 'd probably write about the plant at Oak Ridge . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up .

Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up . Description Rating Title Marrow , Guinn Description Oral History of Guinn Marrow , Interviewed by Bart Callan , May 17 , 2005 Audio Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / audio / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . mp3 Video Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / videojs / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . htm Transcript Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / Transcripts _ and _ photos / K - 25 / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . doc Collection Name K - 25 Related Collections COROH Interviewee Marrow , Guinn Interviewer Callan , Bart Type video Language English Subject Atomic Bomb ; Blacks ; Cattle cars ; Dormitories ; Housing ; K - 25 ; Manhattan Project , 1942 - 1945 ; Oak Ridge ( Tenn . ) ; X - 10 ; Y - 12 ; People Brantley , Jerry ; Brelant , Bud ; Hackworth , Jim ; Sawicki , Joe ; Truman , Harry ; Willis , Dick ; Winkle , Robert ( Bob ) ; Places Camp Blandon ( Fl . ) ; Clinch River ; Gamble Valley ; Jackson Square ; K - 29 ; Madisonville ( Ky . ) ; Monroe County ( Tenn . ) ; New York City ( N . Y . ) ; Paducah ( Ky . ) ; Polk County ( Tenn . ) ; Scarboro ( Tenn . ) ; Tellico Plains ( Tenn . ) ; Organizations / Programs J . A . Jones and Company ; MAN Program ; Tennessee Valley Authority ( TVA ) ; U . S . Army ; Union Carbide ; Things / Other Flattops ; Date of Original 2005 Format flv , doc , mp3 Length 1 hour , 17 minutes File Size 1 . 20 GB Source K - 25 Location of Original Oak Ridge Public Library Rights Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge , Oak Ridge , TN 37830 Disclaimer : " This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government . Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof , nor any of their employees , makes any warranty , express or implied , or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy , completeness , or usefulness of any information , apparatus , product , or process disclosed , or represents that process , or service by trade name , trademark , manufacturer , or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement , recommendation , or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof . The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of theDate : 5 / 17 / 05 Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Marrow , G . : Guinn Marrow . G - U - I - N - N M - A - R - R - O - W . Callan , B . : Okay . And how old are you , if you don 't mind me asking ? Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Okay . I worked for J . A . Jones on the railroad for - - ' til I was 18 years old and they hired me at Union Carbide . Callan , B . : Okay . And what kind of railroad construction were you doing ? Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , I was one of 11 kids in our family . My daddy raised us on a farm - - a rented farm , not ours - - and so all of us went to work as prior as we could to try to help the family out . Callan , B . : And so how did you first hear about work happening up here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . So we caught the truck the next morning and come up here , and they hired us right off . Callan , B . : And what did you first think about the place up here when you first arrived up here with all the activity going on ? Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . I started there and worked until March , the end of March of ' 90 . Callan , B . : Okay . So you were how old when you started working out here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Callan , B . : So did you pretty much see the facility come up from nothing from where they started laying the slab and put the whole thing together ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Callan , B . : Was it an impressive site to see , that building ? Callan , B . : Well , tell me about it . How big was it ? Marrow , G . : Well , the K - 25 building 's a quarter of a mile wide and a mile long . It 's in a U - shape . Callan , B . : And how many people were out there working on it ? Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Then later on they merged all these classifications into maintenance mechanics . That covers a lot of the different classifications , maintenance mechanic did . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . [ 1 : 23 : 41 ] Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Callan , B . : How many people would you say were working up on the operations floor at any given time ? Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - [ End of Tape 1 , Begin Tape 2 ] Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Can you give me that whole story again about how you started ? You were here , and - - Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . And so I come back and I worked there until end of March of 1990 . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Callan , B . : He told me some outrageous stories when we were at dinner about sneaking in whiskey and some of his adventures with that . I guess initially the secret city - - I guess there was prohibition , too , really . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . And a few people was working around there for TVA , but a lot of them quit that and started to work up here . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Callan , B . : Were you treated pretty well by your managers or the folks at Union Carbide ? Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Callan , B . : And on that day , what was it like the day that you found out or that you heard the bomb was dropped ? Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . When a young 18 - year - old kid was trained to do something , you know , they want to do it . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Marrow , G . : I don 't know . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Callan , B . : It sounds similar to something that - - Are you familiar with Jim Hackworth ? Marrow , G . : He 's the one that got me in on this . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Callan , B . : He said sometimes they had to have Easter egg hunts . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . That 's uh - - Callan , B . : Tell me what an Easter egg hunt is . Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No he didn 't . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Callan , B . : And so it was just kind of turning a couple valves ? Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Callan , B . : So if there was a cell leak or something like that , I guess all the cells - they had a housing around them . That 's why it was so hot inside the cells itself was because of the housing ? Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Callan , B . : How come they didn 't use housings on K - 29 ? Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had to go in there and pull the seals out of the compressors and close everything off . You know , make it where any of that gas was left in there couldn 't escape . Callan , B . : So you said pull the seals off the compressors . Was that every single compressor there ? Marrow , G . : I don 't - - right now I couldn 't say . I think it 's 12 compressors to a cell . Callan , B . : So we 're talking a lot of compressors there . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . And they had metal detectors . And they had machines . Stick your hands in and check you for radiation . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Callan , B . : So did they do pretty regular testing overall on people who worked at the facility ? Radiological testing and whatnot ? Marrow , G . : Oh , I 'm not familiar with that . I don 't - - Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Callan , B . : How long were the change houses out there ? Kind of in the earlier - - Marrow , G . : Yeah . How long did they have them ? Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Callan , B . : Did you yourself ever have to go to the dispensary to have them - - ? Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : Well , they 'd uh - - You had people like that . That try to , you know , do the job faster than what it 's supposed to be done and stuff like that . Callan , B . : What would say was your most challenging assignment that you had to do out there , either as an individual or as a group of people ? What was the most difficult thing you had to do while working in the K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Callan , B . : What would say was your most significant accomplishment as a group out there - - or as an individual ? Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Callan , B . : Gamble Valley . I 've heard that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Marrow , G . : Well , I 'd probably write about the plant at Oak Ridge . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up .

Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up . Description Rating Title Marrow , Guinn Description Oral History of Guinn Marrow , Interviewed by Bart Callan , May 17 , 2005 Audio Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / audio / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . mp3 Video Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / videojs / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . htm Transcript Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / Transcripts _ and _ photos / K - 25 / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . doc Collection Name K - 25 Related Collections COROH Interviewee Marrow , Guinn Interviewer Callan , Bart Type video Language English Subject Atomic Bomb ; Blacks ; Cattle cars ; Dormitories ; Housing ; K - 25 ; Manhattan Project , 1942 - 1945 ; Oak Ridge ( Tenn . ) ; X - 10 ; Y - 12 ; People Brantley , Jerry ; Brelant , Bud ; Hackworth , Jim ; Sawicki , Joe ; Truman , Harry ; Willis , Dick ; Winkle , Robert ( Bob ) ; Places Camp Blandon ( Fl . ) ; Clinch River ; Gamble Valley ; Jackson Square ; K - 29 ; Madisonville ( Ky . ) ; Monroe County ( Tenn . ) ; New York City ( N . Y . ) ; Paducah ( Ky . ) ; Polk County ( Tenn . ) ; Scarboro ( Tenn . ) ; Tellico Plains ( Tenn . ) ; Organizations / Programs J . A . Jones and Company ; MAN Program ; Tennessee Valley Authority ( TVA ) ; U . S . Army ; Union Carbide ; Things / Other Flattops ; Date of Original 2005 Format flv , doc , mp3 Length 1 hour , 17 minutes File Size 1 . 20 GB Source K - 25 Location of Original Oak Ridge Public Library Rights Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge , Oak Ridge , TN 37830 Disclaimer : " This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government . Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof , nor any of their employees , makes any warranty , express or implied , or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy , completeness , or usefulness of any information , apparatus , product , or process disclosed , or represents that process , or service by trade name , trademark , manufacturer , or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement , recommendation , or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof . The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of theDate : 5 / 17 / 05 Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Marrow , G . : Guinn Marrow . G - U - I - N - N M - A - R - R - O - W . Callan , B . : Okay . And how old are you , if you don 't mind me asking ? Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Okay . I worked for J . A . Jones on the railroad for - - ' til I was 18 years old and they hired me at Union Carbide . Callan , B . : Okay . And what kind of railroad construction were you doing ? Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , I was one of 11 kids in our family . My daddy raised us on a farm - - a rented farm , not ours - - and so all of us went to work as prior as we could to try to help the family out . Callan , B . : And so how did you first hear about work happening up here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . So we caught the truck the next morning and come up here , and they hired us right off . Callan , B . : And what did you first think about the place up here when you first arrived up here with all the activity going on ? Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . I started there and worked until March , the end of March of ' 90 . Callan , B . : Okay . So you were how old when you started working out here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Callan , B . : So did you pretty much see the facility come up from nothing from where they started laying the slab and put the whole thing together ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Callan , B . : Was it an impressive site to see , that building ? Callan , B . : Well , tell me about it . How big was it ? Marrow , G . : Well , the K - 25 building 's a quarter of a mile wide and a mile long . It 's in a U - shape . Callan , B . : And how many people were out there working on it ? Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Then later on they merged all these classifications into maintenance mechanics . That covers a lot of the different classifications , maintenance mechanic did . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . [ 1 : 23 : 41 ] Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Callan , B . : How many people would you say were working up on the operations floor at any given time ? Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - [ End of Tape 1 , Begin Tape 2 ] Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Can you give me that whole story again about how you started ? You were here , and - - Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . And so I come back and I worked there until end of March of 1990 . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Callan , B . : He told me some outrageous stories when we were at dinner about sneaking in whiskey and some of his adventures with that . I guess initially the secret city - - I guess there was prohibition , too , really . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . And a few people was working around there for TVA , but a lot of them quit that and started to work up here . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Callan , B . : Were you treated pretty well by your managers or the folks at Union Carbide ? Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Callan , B . : And on that day , what was it like the day that you found out or that you heard the bomb was dropped ? Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . When a young 18 - year - old kid was trained to do something , you know , they want to do it . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Marrow , G . : I don 't know . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Callan , B . : It sounds similar to something that - - Are you familiar with Jim Hackworth ? Marrow , G . : He 's the one that got me in on this . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Callan , B . : He said sometimes they had to have Easter egg hunts . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . That 's uh - - Callan , B . : Tell me what an Easter egg hunt is . Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No he didn 't . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Callan , B . : And so it was just kind of turning a couple valves ? Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Callan , B . : So if there was a cell leak or something like that , I guess all the cells - they had a housing around them . That 's why it was so hot inside the cells itself was because of the housing ? Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Callan , B . : How come they didn 't use housings on K - 29 ? Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had to go in there and pull the seals out of the compressors and close everything off . You know , make it where any of that gas was left in there couldn 't escape . Callan , B . : So you said pull the seals off the compressors . Was that every single compressor there ? Marrow , G . : I don 't - - right now I couldn 't say . I think it 's 12 compressors to a cell . Callan , B . : So we 're talking a lot of compressors there . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . And they had metal detectors . And they had machines . Stick your hands in and check you for radiation . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Callan , B . : So did they do pretty regular testing overall on people who worked at the facility ? Radiological testing and whatnot ? Marrow , G . : Oh , I 'm not familiar with that . I don 't - - Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Callan , B . : How long were the change houses out there ? Kind of in the earlier - - Marrow , G . : Yeah . How long did they have them ? Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Callan , B . : Did you yourself ever have to go to the dispensary to have them - - ? Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : Well , they 'd uh - - You had people like that . That try to , you know , do the job faster than what it 's supposed to be done and stuff like that . Callan , B . : What would say was your most challenging assignment that you had to do out there , either as an individual or as a group of people ? What was the most difficult thing you had to do while working in the K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Callan , B . : What would say was your most significant accomplishment as a group out there - - or as an individual ? Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Callan , B . : Gamble Valley . I 've heard that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Marrow , G . : Well , I 'd probably write about the plant at Oak Ridge . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up .

Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up . Description Rating Title Marrow , Guinn Description Oral History of Guinn Marrow , Interviewed by Bart Callan , May 17 , 2005 Audio Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / audio / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . mp3 Video Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / videojs / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . htm Transcript Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / Transcripts _ and _ photos / K - 25 / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . doc Collection Name K - 25 Related Collections COROH Interviewee Marrow , Guinn Interviewer Callan , Bart Type video Language English Subject Atomic Bomb ; Blacks ; Cattle cars ; Dormitories ; Housing ; K - 25 ; Manhattan Project , 1942 - 1945 ; Oak Ridge ( Tenn . ) ; X - 10 ; Y - 12 ; People Brantley , Jerry ; Brelant , Bud ; Hackworth , Jim ; Sawicki , Joe ; Truman , Harry ; Willis , Dick ; Winkle , Robert ( Bob ) ; Places Camp Blandon ( Fl . ) ; Clinch River ; Gamble Valley ; Jackson Square ; K - 29 ; Madisonville ( Ky . ) ; Monroe County ( Tenn . ) ; New York City ( N . Y . ) ; Paducah ( Ky . ) ; Polk County ( Tenn . ) ; Scarboro ( Tenn . ) ; Tellico Plains ( Tenn . ) ; Organizations / Programs J . A . Jones and Company ; MAN Program ; Tennessee Valley Authority ( TVA ) ; U . S . Army ; Union Carbide ; Things / Other Flattops ; Date of Original 2005 Format flv , doc , mp3 Length 1 hour , 17 minutes File Size 1 . 20 GB Source K - 25 Location of Original Oak Ridge Public Library Rights Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge , Oak Ridge , TN 37830 Disclaimer : " This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government . Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof , nor any of their employees , makes any warranty , express or implied , or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy , completeness , or usefulness of any information , apparatus , product , or process disclosed , or represents that process , or service by trade name , trademark , manufacturer , or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement , recommendation , or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof . The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of theDate : 5 / 17 / 05 Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Marrow , G . : Guinn Marrow . G - U - I - N - N M - A - R - R - O - W . Callan , B . : Okay . And how old are you , if you don 't mind me asking ? Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Okay . I worked for J . A . Jones on the railroad for - - ' til I was 18 years old and they hired me at Union Carbide . Callan , B . : Okay . And what kind of railroad construction were you doing ? Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , I was one of 11 kids in our family . My daddy raised us on a farm - - a rented farm , not ours - - and so all of us went to work as prior as we could to try to help the family out . Callan , B . : And so how did you first hear about work happening up here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . So we caught the truck the next morning and come up here , and they hired us right off . Callan , B . : And what did you first think about the place up here when you first arrived up here with all the activity going on ? Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . I started there and worked until March , the end of March of ' 90 . Callan , B . : Okay . So you were how old when you started working out here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Callan , B . : So did you pretty much see the facility come up from nothing from where they started laying the slab and put the whole thing together ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Callan , B . : Was it an impressive site to see , that building ? Callan , B . : Well , tell me about it . How big was it ? Marrow , G . : Well , the K - 25 building 's a quarter of a mile wide and a mile long . It 's in a U - shape . Callan , B . : And how many people were out there working on it ? Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Then later on they merged all these classifications into maintenance mechanics . That covers a lot of the different classifications , maintenance mechanic did . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . [ 1 : 23 : 41 ] Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Callan , B . : How many people would you say were working up on the operations floor at any given time ? Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - [ End of Tape 1 , Begin Tape 2 ] Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Can you give me that whole story again about how you started ? You were here , and - - Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . And so I come back and I worked there until end of March of 1990 . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Callan , B . : He told me some outrageous stories when we were at dinner about sneaking in whiskey and some of his adventures with that . I guess initially the secret city - - I guess there was prohibition , too , really . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . And a few people was working around there for TVA , but a lot of them quit that and started to work up here . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Callan , B . : Were you treated pretty well by your managers or the folks at Union Carbide ? Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Callan , B . : And on that day , what was it like the day that you found out or that you heard the bomb was dropped ? Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . When a young 18 - year - old kid was trained to do something , you know , they want to do it . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Marrow , G . : I don 't know . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Callan , B . : It sounds similar to something that - - Are you familiar with Jim Hackworth ? Marrow , G . : He 's the one that got me in on this . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Callan , B . : He said sometimes they had to have Easter egg hunts . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . That 's uh - - Callan , B . : Tell me what an Easter egg hunt is . Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No he didn 't . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Callan , B . : And so it was just kind of turning a couple valves ? Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Callan , B . : So if there was a cell leak or something like that , I guess all the cells - they had a housing around them . That 's why it was so hot inside the cells itself was because of the housing ? Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Callan , B . : How come they didn 't use housings on K - 29 ? Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had to go in there and pull the seals out of the compressors and close everything off . You know , make it where any of that gas was left in there couldn 't escape . Callan , B . : So you said pull the seals off the compressors . Was that every single compressor there ? Marrow , G . : I don 't - - right now I couldn 't say . I think it 's 12 compressors to a cell . Callan , B . : So we 're talking a lot of compressors there . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . And they had metal detectors . And they had machines . Stick your hands in and check you for radiation . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Callan , B . : So did they do pretty regular testing overall on people who worked at the facility ? Radiological testing and whatnot ? Marrow , G . : Oh , I 'm not familiar with that . I don 't - - Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Callan , B . : How long were the change houses out there ? Kind of in the earlier - - Marrow , G . : Yeah . How long did they have them ? Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Callan , B . : Did you yourself ever have to go to the dispensary to have them - - ? Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : Well , they 'd uh - - You had people like that . That try to , you know , do the job faster than what it 's supposed to be done and stuff like that . Callan , B . : What would say was your most challenging assignment that you had to do out there , either as an individual or as a group of people ? What was the most difficult thing you had to do while working in the K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Callan , B . : What would say was your most significant accomplishment as a group out there - - or as an individual ? Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Callan , B . : Gamble Valley . I 've heard that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Marrow , G . : Well , I 'd probably write about the plant at Oak Ridge . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up .

Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up . Description Rating Title Marrow , Guinn Description Oral History of Guinn Marrow , Interviewed by Bart Callan , May 17 , 2005 Audio Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / audio / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . mp3 Video Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / videojs / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . htm Transcript Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / Transcripts _ and _ photos / K - 25 / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . doc Collection Name K - 25 Related Collections COROH Interviewee Marrow , Guinn Interviewer Callan , Bart Type video Language English Subject Atomic Bomb ; Blacks ; Cattle cars ; Dormitories ; Housing ; K - 25 ; Manhattan Project , 1942 - 1945 ; Oak Ridge ( Tenn . ) ; X - 10 ; Y - 12 ; People Brantley , Jerry ; Brelant , Bud ; Hackworth , Jim ; Sawicki , Joe ; Truman , Harry ; Willis , Dick ; Winkle , Robert ( Bob ) ; Places Camp Blandon ( Fl . ) ; Clinch River ; Gamble Valley ; Jackson Square ; K - 29 ; Madisonville ( Ky . ) ; Monroe County ( Tenn . ) ; New York City ( N . Y . ) ; Paducah ( Ky . ) ; Polk County ( Tenn . ) ; Scarboro ( Tenn . ) ; Tellico Plains ( Tenn . ) ; Organizations / Programs J . A . Jones and Company ; MAN Program ; Tennessee Valley Authority ( TVA ) ; U . S . Army ; Union Carbide ; Things / Other Flattops ; Date of Original 2005 Format flv , doc , mp3 Length 1 hour , 17 minutes File Size 1 . 20 GB Source K - 25 Location of Original Oak Ridge Public Library Rights Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge , Oak Ridge , TN 37830 Disclaimer : " This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government . Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof , nor any of their employees , makes any warranty , express or implied , or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy , completeness , or usefulness of any information , apparatus , product , or process disclosed , or represents that process , or service by trade name , trademark , manufacturer , or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement , recommendation , or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof . The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of theDate : 5 / 17 / 05 Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Marrow , G . : Guinn Marrow . G - U - I - N - N M - A - R - R - O - W . Callan , B . : Okay . And how old are you , if you don 't mind me asking ? Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Okay . I worked for J . A . Jones on the railroad for - - ' til I was 18 years old and they hired me at Union Carbide . Callan , B . : Okay . And what kind of railroad construction were you doing ? Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , I was one of 11 kids in our family . My daddy raised us on a farm - - a rented farm , not ours - - and so all of us went to work as prior as we could to try to help the family out . Callan , B . : And so how did you first hear about work happening up here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . So we caught the truck the next morning and come up here , and they hired us right off . Callan , B . : And what did you first think about the place up here when you first arrived up here with all the activity going on ? Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . I started there and worked until March , the end of March of ' 90 . Callan , B . : Okay . So you were how old when you started working out here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Callan , B . : So did you pretty much see the facility come up from nothing from where they started laying the slab and put the whole thing together ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Callan , B . : Was it an impressive site to see , that building ? Callan , B . : Well , tell me about it . How big was it ? Marrow , G . : Well , the K - 25 building 's a quarter of a mile wide and a mile long . It 's in a U - shape . Callan , B . : And how many people were out there working on it ? Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Then later on they merged all these classifications into maintenance mechanics . That covers a lot of the different classifications , maintenance mechanic did . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . [ 1 : 23 : 41 ] Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Callan , B . : How many people would you say were working up on the operations floor at any given time ? Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - [ End of Tape 1 , Begin Tape 2 ] Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Can you give me that whole story again about how you started ? You were here , and - - Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . And so I come back and I worked there until end of March of 1990 . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Callan , B . : He told me some outrageous stories when we were at dinner about sneaking in whiskey and some of his adventures with that . I guess initially the secret city - - I guess there was prohibition , too , really . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . And a few people was working around there for TVA , but a lot of them quit that and started to work up here . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Callan , B . : Were you treated pretty well by your managers or the folks at Union Carbide ? Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Callan , B . : And on that day , what was it like the day that you found out or that you heard the bomb was dropped ? Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . When a young 18 - year - old kid was trained to do something , you know , they want to do it . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Marrow , G . : I don 't know . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Callan , B . : It sounds similar to something that - - Are you familiar with Jim Hackworth ? Marrow , G . : He 's the one that got me in on this . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Callan , B . : He said sometimes they had to have Easter egg hunts . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . That 's uh - - Callan , B . : Tell me what an Easter egg hunt is . Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No he didn 't . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Callan , B . : And so it was just kind of turning a couple valves ? Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Callan , B . : So if there was a cell leak or something like that , I guess all the cells - they had a housing around them . That 's why it was so hot inside the cells itself was because of the housing ? Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Callan , B . : How come they didn 't use housings on K - 29 ? Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had to go in there and pull the seals out of the compressors and close everything off . You know , make it where any of that gas was left in there couldn 't escape . Callan , B . : So you said pull the seals off the compressors . Was that every single compressor there ? Marrow , G . : I don 't - - right now I couldn 't say . I think it 's 12 compressors to a cell . Callan , B . : So we 're talking a lot of compressors there . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . And they had metal detectors . And they had machines . Stick your hands in and check you for radiation . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Callan , B . : So did they do pretty regular testing overall on people who worked at the facility ? Radiological testing and whatnot ? Marrow , G . : Oh , I 'm not familiar with that . I don 't - - Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Callan , B . : How long were the change houses out there ? Kind of in the earlier - - Marrow , G . : Yeah . How long did they have them ? Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Callan , B . : Did you yourself ever have to go to the dispensary to have them - - ? Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : Well , they 'd uh - - You had people like that . That try to , you know , do the job faster than what it 's supposed to be done and stuff like that . Callan , B . : What would say was your most challenging assignment that you had to do out there , either as an individual or as a group of people ? What was the most difficult thing you had to do while working in the K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Callan , B . : What would say was your most significant accomplishment as a group out there - - or as an individual ? Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Callan , B . : Gamble Valley . I 've heard that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Marrow , G . : Well , I 'd probably write about the plant at Oak Ridge . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up .

Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up . Description Rating Title Marrow , Guinn Description Oral History of Guinn Marrow , Interviewed by Bart Callan , May 17 , 2005 Audio Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / audio / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . mp3 Video Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / videojs / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . htm Transcript Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / Transcripts _ and _ photos / K - 25 / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . doc Collection Name K - 25 Related Collections COROH Interviewee Marrow , Guinn Interviewer Callan , Bart Type video Language English Subject Atomic Bomb ; Blacks ; Cattle cars ; Dormitories ; Housing ; K - 25 ; Manhattan Project , 1942 - 1945 ; Oak Ridge ( Tenn . ) ; X - 10 ; Y - 12 ; People Brantley , Jerry ; Brelant , Bud ; Hackworth , Jim ; Sawicki , Joe ; Truman , Harry ; Willis , Dick ; Winkle , Robert ( Bob ) ; Places Camp Blandon ( Fl . ) ; Clinch River ; Gamble Valley ; Jackson Square ; K - 29 ; Madisonville ( Ky . ) ; Monroe County ( Tenn . ) ; New York City ( N . Y . ) ; Paducah ( Ky . ) ; Polk County ( Tenn . ) ; Scarboro ( Tenn . ) ; Tellico Plains ( Tenn . ) ; Organizations / Programs J . A . Jones and Company ; MAN Program ; Tennessee Valley Authority ( TVA ) ; U . S . Army ; Union Carbide ; Things / Other Flattops ; Date of Original 2005 Format flv , doc , mp3 Length 1 hour , 17 minutes File Size 1 . 20 GB Source K - 25 Location of Original Oak Ridge Public Library Rights Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge , Oak Ridge , TN 37830 Disclaimer : " This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government . Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof , nor any of their employees , makes any warranty , express or implied , or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy , completeness , or usefulness of any information , apparatus , product , or process disclosed , or represents that process , or service by trade name , trademark , manufacturer , or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement , recommendation , or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof . The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of theDate : 5 / 17 / 05 Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Marrow , G . : Guinn Marrow . G - U - I - N - N M - A - R - R - O - W . Callan , B . : Okay . And how old are you , if you don 't mind me asking ? Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Okay . I worked for J . A . Jones on the railroad for - - ' til I was 18 years old and they hired me at Union Carbide . Callan , B . : Okay . And what kind of railroad construction were you doing ? Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , I was one of 11 kids in our family . My daddy raised us on a farm - - a rented farm , not ours - - and so all of us went to work as prior as we could to try to help the family out . Callan , B . : And so how did you first hear about work happening up here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . So we caught the truck the next morning and come up here , and they hired us right off . Callan , B . : And what did you first think about the place up here when you first arrived up here with all the activity going on ? Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . I started there and worked until March , the end of March of ' 90 . Callan , B . : Okay . So you were how old when you started working out here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Callan , B . : So did you pretty much see the facility come up from nothing from where they started laying the slab and put the whole thing together ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Callan , B . : Was it an impressive site to see , that building ? Callan , B . : Well , tell me about it . How big was it ? Marrow , G . : Well , the K - 25 building 's a quarter of a mile wide and a mile long . It 's in a U - shape . Callan , B . : And how many people were out there working on it ? Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Then later on they merged all these classifications into maintenance mechanics . That covers a lot of the different classifications , maintenance mechanic did . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . [ 1 : 23 : 41 ] Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Callan , B . : How many people would you say were working up on the operations floor at any given time ? Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - [ End of Tape 1 , Begin Tape 2 ] Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Can you give me that whole story again about how you started ? You were here , and - - Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . And so I come back and I worked there until end of March of 1990 . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Callan , B . : He told me some outrageous stories when we were at dinner about sneaking in whiskey and some of his adventures with that . I guess initially the secret city - - I guess there was prohibition , too , really . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . And a few people was working around there for TVA , but a lot of them quit that and started to work up here . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Callan , B . : Were you treated pretty well by your managers or the folks at Union Carbide ? Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Callan , B . : And on that day , what was it like the day that you found out or that you heard the bomb was dropped ? Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . When a young 18 - year - old kid was trained to do something , you know , they want to do it . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Marrow , G . : I don 't know . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Callan , B . : It sounds similar to something that - - Are you familiar with Jim Hackworth ? Marrow , G . : He 's the one that got me in on this . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Callan , B . : He said sometimes they had to have Easter egg hunts . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . That 's uh - - Callan , B . : Tell me what an Easter egg hunt is . Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No he didn 't . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Callan , B . : And so it was just kind of turning a couple valves ? Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Callan , B . : So if there was a cell leak or something like that , I guess all the cells - they had a housing around them . That 's why it was so hot inside the cells itself was because of the housing ? Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Callan , B . : How come they didn 't use housings on K - 29 ? Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had to go in there and pull the seals out of the compressors and close everything off . You know , make it where any of that gas was left in there couldn 't escape . Callan , B . : So you said pull the seals off the compressors . Was that every single compressor there ? Marrow , G . : I don 't - - right now I couldn 't say . I think it 's 12 compressors to a cell . Callan , B . : So we 're talking a lot of compressors there . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . And they had metal detectors . And they had machines . Stick your hands in and check you for radiation . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Callan , B . : So did they do pretty regular testing overall on people who worked at the facility ? Radiological testing and whatnot ? Marrow , G . : Oh , I 'm not familiar with that . I don 't - - Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Callan , B . : How long were the change houses out there ? Kind of in the earlier - - Marrow , G . : Yeah . How long did they have them ? Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Callan , B . : Did you yourself ever have to go to the dispensary to have them - - ? Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : Well , they 'd uh - - You had people like that . That try to , you know , do the job faster than what it 's supposed to be done and stuff like that . Callan , B . : What would say was your most challenging assignment that you had to do out there , either as an individual or as a group of people ? What was the most difficult thing you had to do while working in the K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Callan , B . : What would say was your most significant accomplishment as a group out there - - or as an individual ? Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Callan , B . : Gamble Valley . I 've heard that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Marrow , G . : Well , I 'd probably write about the plant at Oak Ridge . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up .

Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up . Description Rating Title Marrow , Guinn Description Oral History of Guinn Marrow , Interviewed by Bart Callan , May 17 , 2005 Audio Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / audio / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . mp3 Video Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / videojs / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . htm Transcript Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / Transcripts _ and _ photos / K - 25 / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . doc Collection Name K - 25 Related Collections COROH Interviewee Marrow , Guinn Interviewer Callan , Bart Type video Language English Subject Atomic Bomb ; Blacks ; Cattle cars ; Dormitories ; Housing ; K - 25 ; Manhattan Project , 1942 - 1945 ; Oak Ridge ( Tenn . ) ; X - 10 ; Y - 12 ; People Brantley , Jerry ; Brelant , Bud ; Hackworth , Jim ; Sawicki , Joe ; Truman , Harry ; Willis , Dick ; Winkle , Robert ( Bob ) ; Places Camp Blandon ( Fl . ) ; Clinch River ; Gamble Valley ; Jackson Square ; K - 29 ; Madisonville ( Ky . ) ; Monroe County ( Tenn . ) ; New York City ( N . Y . ) ; Paducah ( Ky . ) ; Polk County ( Tenn . ) ; Scarboro ( Tenn . ) ; Tellico Plains ( Tenn . ) ; Organizations / Programs J . A . Jones and Company ; MAN Program ; Tennessee Valley Authority ( TVA ) ; U . S . Army ; Union Carbide ; Things / Other Flattops ; Date of Original 2005 Format flv , doc , mp3 Length 1 hour , 17 minutes File Size 1 . 20 GB Source K - 25 Location of Original Oak Ridge Public Library Rights Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge , Oak Ridge , TN 37830 Disclaimer : " This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government . Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof , nor any of their employees , makes any warranty , express or implied , or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy , completeness , or usefulness of any information , apparatus , product , or process disclosed , or represents that process , or service by trade name , trademark , manufacturer , or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement , recommendation , or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof . The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of theDate : 5 / 17 / 05 Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Marrow , G . : Guinn Marrow . G - U - I - N - N M - A - R - R - O - W . Callan , B . : Okay . And how old are you , if you don 't mind me asking ? Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Okay . I worked for J . A . Jones on the railroad for - - ' til I was 18 years old and they hired me at Union Carbide . Callan , B . : Okay . And what kind of railroad construction were you doing ? Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , I was one of 11 kids in our family . My daddy raised us on a farm - - a rented farm , not ours - - and so all of us went to work as prior as we could to try to help the family out . Callan , B . : And so how did you first hear about work happening up here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . So we caught the truck the next morning and come up here , and they hired us right off . Callan , B . : And what did you first think about the place up here when you first arrived up here with all the activity going on ? Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . I started there and worked until March , the end of March of ' 90 . Callan , B . : Okay . So you were how old when you started working out here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Callan , B . : So did you pretty much see the facility come up from nothing from where they started laying the slab and put the whole thing together ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Callan , B . : Was it an impressive site to see , that building ? Callan , B . : Well , tell me about it . How big was it ? Marrow , G . : Well , the K - 25 building 's a quarter of a mile wide and a mile long . It 's in a U - shape . Callan , B . : And how many people were out there working on it ? Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Then later on they merged all these classifications into maintenance mechanics . That covers a lot of the different classifications , maintenance mechanic did . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . [ 1 : 23 : 41 ] Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Callan , B . : How many people would you say were working up on the operations floor at any given time ? Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - [ End of Tape 1 , Begin Tape 2 ] Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Can you give me that whole story again about how you started ? You were here , and - - Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . And so I come back and I worked there until end of March of 1990 . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Callan , B . : He told me some outrageous stories when we were at dinner about sneaking in whiskey and some of his adventures with that . I guess initially the secret city - - I guess there was prohibition , too , really . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . And a few people was working around there for TVA , but a lot of them quit that and started to work up here . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Callan , B . : Were you treated pretty well by your managers or the folks at Union Carbide ? Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Callan , B . : And on that day , what was it like the day that you found out or that you heard the bomb was dropped ? Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . When a young 18 - year - old kid was trained to do something , you know , they want to do it . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Marrow , G . : I don 't know . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Callan , B . : It sounds similar to something that - - Are you familiar with Jim Hackworth ? Marrow , G . : He 's the one that got me in on this . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Callan , B . : He said sometimes they had to have Easter egg hunts . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . That 's uh - - Callan , B . : Tell me what an Easter egg hunt is . Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No he didn 't . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Callan , B . : And so it was just kind of turning a couple valves ? Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Callan , B . : So if there was a cell leak or something like that , I guess all the cells - they had a housing around them . That 's why it was so hot inside the cells itself was because of the housing ? Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Callan , B . : How come they didn 't use housings on K - 29 ? Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had to go in there and pull the seals out of the compressors and close everything off . You know , make it where any of that gas was left in there couldn 't escape . Callan , B . : So you said pull the seals off the compressors . Was that every single compressor there ? Marrow , G . : I don 't - - right now I couldn 't say . I think it 's 12 compressors to a cell . Callan , B . : So we 're talking a lot of compressors there . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . And they had metal detectors . And they had machines . Stick your hands in and check you for radiation . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Callan , B . : So did they do pretty regular testing overall on people who worked at the facility ? Radiological testing and whatnot ? Marrow , G . : Oh , I 'm not familiar with that . I don 't - - Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Callan , B . : How long were the change houses out there ? Kind of in the earlier - - Marrow , G . : Yeah . How long did they have them ? Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Callan , B . : Did you yourself ever have to go to the dispensary to have them - - ? Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : Well , they 'd uh - - You had people like that . That try to , you know , do the job faster than what it 's supposed to be done and stuff like that . Callan , B . : What would say was your most challenging assignment that you had to do out there , either as an individual or as a group of people ? What was the most difficult thing you had to do while working in the K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Callan , B . : What would say was your most significant accomplishment as a group out there - - or as an individual ? Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Callan , B . : Gamble Valley . I 've heard that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Marrow , G . : Well , I 'd probably write about the plant at Oak Ridge . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up .

Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up . Description Rating Title Marrow , Guinn Description Oral History of Guinn Marrow , Interviewed by Bart Callan , May 17 , 2005 Audio Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / audio / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . mp3 Video Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / videojs / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . htm Transcript Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / Transcripts _ and _ photos / K - 25 / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . doc Collection Name K - 25 Related Collections COROH Interviewee Marrow , Guinn Interviewer Callan , Bart Type video Language English Subject Atomic Bomb ; Blacks ; Cattle cars ; Dormitories ; Housing ; K - 25 ; Manhattan Project , 1942 - 1945 ; Oak Ridge ( Tenn . ) ; X - 10 ; Y - 12 ; People Brantley , Jerry ; Brelant , Bud ; Hackworth , Jim ; Sawicki , Joe ; Truman , Harry ; Willis , Dick ; Winkle , Robert ( Bob ) ; Places Camp Blandon ( Fl . ) ; Clinch River ; Gamble Valley ; Jackson Square ; K - 29 ; Madisonville ( Ky . ) ; Monroe County ( Tenn . ) ; New York City ( N . Y . ) ; Paducah ( Ky . ) ; Polk County ( Tenn . ) ; Scarboro ( Tenn . ) ; Tellico Plains ( Tenn . ) ; Organizations / Programs J . A . Jones and Company ; MAN Program ; Tennessee Valley Authority ( TVA ) ; U . S . Army ; Union Carbide ; Things / Other Flattops ; Date of Original 2005 Format flv , doc , mp3 Length 1 hour , 17 minutes File Size 1 . 20 GB Source K - 25 Location of Original Oak Ridge Public Library Rights Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge , Oak Ridge , TN 37830 Disclaimer : " This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government . Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof , nor any of their employees , makes any warranty , express or implied , or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy , completeness , or usefulness of any information , apparatus , product , or process disclosed , or represents that process , or service by trade name , trademark , manufacturer , or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement , recommendation , or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof . The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of theDate : 5 / 17 / 05 Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Marrow , G . : Guinn Marrow . G - U - I - N - N M - A - R - R - O - W . Callan , B . : Okay . And how old are you , if you don 't mind me asking ? Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Okay . I worked for J . A . Jones on the railroad for - - ' til I was 18 years old and they hired me at Union Carbide . Callan , B . : Okay . And what kind of railroad construction were you doing ? Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , I was one of 11 kids in our family . My daddy raised us on a farm - - a rented farm , not ours - - and so all of us went to work as prior as we could to try to help the family out . Callan , B . : And so how did you first hear about work happening up here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . So we caught the truck the next morning and come up here , and they hired us right off . Callan , B . : And what did you first think about the place up here when you first arrived up here with all the activity going on ? Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . I started there and worked until March , the end of March of ' 90 . Callan , B . : Okay . So you were how old when you started working out here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Callan , B . : So did you pretty much see the facility come up from nothing from where they started laying the slab and put the whole thing together ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Callan , B . : Was it an impressive site to see , that building ? Callan , B . : Well , tell me about it . How big was it ? Marrow , G . : Well , the K - 25 building 's a quarter of a mile wide and a mile long . It 's in a U - shape . Callan , B . : And how many people were out there working on it ? Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Then later on they merged all these classifications into maintenance mechanics . That covers a lot of the different classifications , maintenance mechanic did . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . [ 1 : 23 : 41 ] Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Callan , B . : How many people would you say were working up on the operations floor at any given time ? Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - [ End of Tape 1 , Begin Tape 2 ] Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Can you give me that whole story again about how you started ? You were here , and - - Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . And so I come back and I worked there until end of March of 1990 . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Callan , B . : He told me some outrageous stories when we were at dinner about sneaking in whiskey and some of his adventures with that . I guess initially the secret city - - I guess there was prohibition , too , really . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . And a few people was working around there for TVA , but a lot of them quit that and started to work up here . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Callan , B . : Were you treated pretty well by your managers or the folks at Union Carbide ? Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Callan , B . : And on that day , what was it like the day that you found out or that you heard the bomb was dropped ? Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . When a young 18 - year - old kid was trained to do something , you know , they want to do it . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Marrow , G . : I don 't know . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Callan , B . : It sounds similar to something that - - Are you familiar with Jim Hackworth ? Marrow , G . : He 's the one that got me in on this . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Callan , B . : He said sometimes they had to have Easter egg hunts . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . That 's uh - - Callan , B . : Tell me what an Easter egg hunt is . Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No he didn 't . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Callan , B . : And so it was just kind of turning a couple valves ? Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Callan , B . : So if there was a cell leak or something like that , I guess all the cells - they had a housing around them . That 's why it was so hot inside the cells itself was because of the housing ? Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Callan , B . : How come they didn 't use housings on K - 29 ? Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had to go in there and pull the seals out of the compressors and close everything off . You know , make it where any of that gas was left in there couldn 't escape . Callan , B . : So you said pull the seals off the compressors . Was that every single compressor there ? Marrow , G . : I don 't - - right now I couldn 't say . I think it 's 12 compressors to a cell . Callan , B . : So we 're talking a lot of compressors there . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . And they had metal detectors . And they had machines . Stick your hands in and check you for radiation . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Callan , B . : So did they do pretty regular testing overall on people who worked at the facility ? Radiological testing and whatnot ? Marrow , G . : Oh , I 'm not familiar with that . I don 't - - Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Callan , B . : How long were the change houses out there ? Kind of in the earlier - - Marrow , G . : Yeah . How long did they have them ? Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Callan , B . : Did you yourself ever have to go to the dispensary to have them - - ? Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : Well , they 'd uh - - You had people like that . That try to , you know , do the job faster than what it 's supposed to be done and stuff like that . Callan , B . : What would say was your most challenging assignment that you had to do out there , either as an individual or as a group of people ? What was the most difficult thing you had to do while working in the K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Callan , B . : What would say was your most significant accomplishment as a group out there - - or as an individual ? Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Callan , B . : Gamble Valley . I 've heard that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Marrow , G . : Well , I 'd probably write about the plant at Oak Ridge . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up .

Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up . Description Rating Title Marrow , Guinn Description Oral History of Guinn Marrow , Interviewed by Bart Callan , May 17 , 2005 Audio Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / audio / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . mp3 Video Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / videojs / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . htm Transcript Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / Transcripts _ and _ photos / K - 25 / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . doc Collection Name K - 25 Related Collections COROH Interviewee Marrow , Guinn Interviewer Callan , Bart Type video Language English Subject Atomic Bomb ; Blacks ; Cattle cars ; Dormitories ; Housing ; K - 25 ; Manhattan Project , 1942 - 1945 ; Oak Ridge ( Tenn . ) ; X - 10 ; Y - 12 ; People Brantley , Jerry ; Brelant , Bud ; Hackworth , Jim ; Sawicki , Joe ; Truman , Harry ; Willis , Dick ; Winkle , Robert ( Bob ) ; Places Camp Blandon ( Fl . ) ; Clinch River ; Gamble Valley ; Jackson Square ; K - 29 ; Madisonville ( Ky . ) ; Monroe County ( Tenn . ) ; New York City ( N . Y . ) ; Paducah ( Ky . ) ; Polk County ( Tenn . ) ; Scarboro ( Tenn . ) ; Tellico Plains ( Tenn . ) ; Organizations / Programs J . A . Jones and Company ; MAN Program ; Tennessee Valley Authority ( TVA ) ; U . S . Army ; Union Carbide ; Things / Other Flattops ; Date of Original 2005 Format flv , doc , mp3 Length 1 hour , 17 minutes File Size 1 . 20 GB Source K - 25 Location of Original Oak Ridge Public Library Rights Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge , Oak Ridge , TN 37830 Disclaimer : " This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government . Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof , nor any of their employees , makes any warranty , express or implied , or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy , completeness , or usefulness of any information , apparatus , product , or process disclosed , or represents that process , or service by trade name , trademark , manufacturer , or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement , recommendation , or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof . The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of theDate : 5 / 17 / 05 Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Marrow , G . : Guinn Marrow . G - U - I - N - N M - A - R - R - O - W . Callan , B . : Okay . And how old are you , if you don 't mind me asking ? Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Okay . I worked for J . A . Jones on the railroad for - - ' til I was 18 years old and they hired me at Union Carbide . Callan , B . : Okay . And what kind of railroad construction were you doing ? Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , I was one of 11 kids in our family . My daddy raised us on a farm - - a rented farm , not ours - - and so all of us went to work as prior as we could to try to help the family out . Callan , B . : And so how did you first hear about work happening up here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . So we caught the truck the next morning and come up here , and they hired us right off . Callan , B . : And what did you first think about the place up here when you first arrived up here with all the activity going on ? Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . I started there and worked until March , the end of March of ' 90 . Callan , B . : Okay . So you were how old when you started working out here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Callan , B . : So did you pretty much see the facility come up from nothing from where they started laying the slab and put the whole thing together ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Callan , B . : Was it an impressive site to see , that building ? Callan , B . : Well , tell me about it . How big was it ? Marrow , G . : Well , the K - 25 building 's a quarter of a mile wide and a mile long . It 's in a U - shape . Callan , B . : And how many people were out there working on it ? Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Then later on they merged all these classifications into maintenance mechanics . That covers a lot of the different classifications , maintenance mechanic did . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . [ 1 : 23 : 41 ] Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Callan , B . : How many people would you say were working up on the operations floor at any given time ? Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - [ End of Tape 1 , Begin Tape 2 ] Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Can you give me that whole story again about how you started ? You were here , and - - Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . And so I come back and I worked there until end of March of 1990 . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Callan , B . : He told me some outrageous stories when we were at dinner about sneaking in whiskey and some of his adventures with that . I guess initially the secret city - - I guess there was prohibition , too , really . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . And a few people was working around there for TVA , but a lot of them quit that and started to work up here . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Callan , B . : Were you treated pretty well by your managers or the folks at Union Carbide ? Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Callan , B . : And on that day , what was it like the day that you found out or that you heard the bomb was dropped ? Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . When a young 18 - year - old kid was trained to do something , you know , they want to do it . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Marrow , G . : I don 't know . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Callan , B . : It sounds similar to something that - - Are you familiar with Jim Hackworth ? Marrow , G . : He 's the one that got me in on this . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Callan , B . : He said sometimes they had to have Easter egg hunts . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . That 's uh - - Callan , B . : Tell me what an Easter egg hunt is . Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No he didn 't . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Callan , B . : And so it was just kind of turning a couple valves ? Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Callan , B . : So if there was a cell leak or something like that , I guess all the cells - they had a housing around them . That 's why it was so hot inside the cells itself was because of the housing ? Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Callan , B . : How come they didn 't use housings on K - 29 ? Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had to go in there and pull the seals out of the compressors and close everything off . You know , make it where any of that gas was left in there couldn 't escape . Callan , B . : So you said pull the seals off the compressors . Was that every single compressor there ? Marrow , G . : I don 't - - right now I couldn 't say . I think it 's 12 compressors to a cell . Callan , B . : So we 're talking a lot of compressors there . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . And they had metal detectors . And they had machines . Stick your hands in and check you for radiation . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Callan , B . : So did they do pretty regular testing overall on people who worked at the facility ? Radiological testing and whatnot ? Marrow , G . : Oh , I 'm not familiar with that . I don 't - - Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Callan , B . : How long were the change houses out there ? Kind of in the earlier - - Marrow , G . : Yeah . How long did they have them ? Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Callan , B . : Did you yourself ever have to go to the dispensary to have them - - ? Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : Well , they 'd uh - - You had people like that . That try to , you know , do the job faster than what it 's supposed to be done and stuff like that . Callan , B . : What would say was your most challenging assignment that you had to do out there , either as an individual or as a group of people ? What was the most difficult thing you had to do while working in the K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Callan , B . : What would say was your most significant accomplishment as a group out there - - or as an individual ? Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Callan , B . : Gamble Valley . I 've heard that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Marrow , G . : Well , I 'd probably write about the plant at Oak Ridge . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up .

Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up . Description Rating Title Marrow , Guinn Description Oral History of Guinn Marrow , Interviewed by Bart Callan , May 17 , 2005 Audio Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / audio / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . mp3 Video Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / videojs / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . htm Transcript Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / Transcripts _ and _ photos / K - 25 / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . doc Collection Name K - 25 Related Collections COROH Interviewee Marrow , Guinn Interviewer Callan , Bart Type video Language English Subject Atomic Bomb ; Blacks ; Cattle cars ; Dormitories ; Housing ; K - 25 ; Manhattan Project , 1942 - 1945 ; Oak Ridge ( Tenn . ) ; X - 10 ; Y - 12 ; People Brantley , Jerry ; Brelant , Bud ; Hackworth , Jim ; Sawicki , Joe ; Truman , Harry ; Willis , Dick ; Winkle , Robert ( Bob ) ; Places Camp Blandon ( Fl . ) ; Clinch River ; Gamble Valley ; Jackson Square ; K - 29 ; Madisonville ( Ky . ) ; Monroe County ( Tenn . ) ; New York City ( N . Y . ) ; Paducah ( Ky . ) ; Polk County ( Tenn . ) ; Scarboro ( Tenn . ) ; Tellico Plains ( Tenn . ) ; Organizations / Programs J . A . Jones and Company ; MAN Program ; Tennessee Valley Authority ( TVA ) ; U . S . Army ; Union Carbide ; Things / Other Flattops ; Date of Original 2005 Format flv , doc , mp3 Length 1 hour , 17 minutes File Size 1 . 20 GB Source K - 25 Location of Original Oak Ridge Public Library Rights Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge , Oak Ridge , TN 37830 Disclaimer : " This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government . Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof , nor any of their employees , makes any warranty , express or implied , or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy , completeness , or usefulness of any information , apparatus , product , or process disclosed , or represents that process , or service by trade name , trademark , manufacturer , or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement , recommendation , or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof . The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of theDate : 5 / 17 / 05 Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Marrow , G . : Guinn Marrow . G - U - I - N - N M - A - R - R - O - W . Callan , B . : Okay . And how old are you , if you don 't mind me asking ? Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Okay . I worked for J . A . Jones on the railroad for - - ' til I was 18 years old and they hired me at Union Carbide . Callan , B . : Okay . And what kind of railroad construction were you doing ? Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , I was one of 11 kids in our family . My daddy raised us on a farm - - a rented farm , not ours - - and so all of us went to work as prior as we could to try to help the family out . Callan , B . : And so how did you first hear about work happening up here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . So we caught the truck the next morning and come up here , and they hired us right off . Callan , B . : And what did you first think about the place up here when you first arrived up here with all the activity going on ? Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . I started there and worked until March , the end of March of ' 90 . Callan , B . : Okay . So you were how old when you started working out here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Callan , B . : So did you pretty much see the facility come up from nothing from where they started laying the slab and put the whole thing together ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Callan , B . : Was it an impressive site to see , that building ? Callan , B . : Well , tell me about it . How big was it ? Marrow , G . : Well , the K - 25 building 's a quarter of a mile wide and a mile long . It 's in a U - shape . Callan , B . : And how many people were out there working on it ? Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Then later on they merged all these classifications into maintenance mechanics . That covers a lot of the different classifications , maintenance mechanic did . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . [ 1 : 23 : 41 ] Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Callan , B . : How many people would you say were working up on the operations floor at any given time ? Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - [ End of Tape 1 , Begin Tape 2 ] Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Can you give me that whole story again about how you started ? You were here , and - - Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . And so I come back and I worked there until end of March of 1990 . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Callan , B . : He told me some outrageous stories when we were at dinner about sneaking in whiskey and some of his adventures with that . I guess initially the secret city - - I guess there was prohibition , too , really . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . And a few people was working around there for TVA , but a lot of them quit that and started to work up here . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Callan , B . : Were you treated pretty well by your managers or the folks at Union Carbide ? Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Callan , B . : And on that day , what was it like the day that you found out or that you heard the bomb was dropped ? Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . When a young 18 - year - old kid was trained to do something , you know , they want to do it . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Marrow , G . : I don 't know . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Callan , B . : It sounds similar to something that - - Are you familiar with Jim Hackworth ? Marrow , G . : He 's the one that got me in on this . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Callan , B . : He said sometimes they had to have Easter egg hunts . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . That 's uh - - Callan , B . : Tell me what an Easter egg hunt is . Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No he didn 't . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Callan , B . : And so it was just kind of turning a couple valves ? Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Callan , B . : So if there was a cell leak or something like that , I guess all the cells - they had a housing around them . That 's why it was so hot inside the cells itself was because of the housing ? Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Callan , B . : How come they didn 't use housings on K - 29 ? Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had to go in there and pull the seals out of the compressors and close everything off . You know , make it where any of that gas was left in there couldn 't escape . Callan , B . : So you said pull the seals off the compressors . Was that every single compressor there ? Marrow , G . : I don 't - - right now I couldn 't say . I think it 's 12 compressors to a cell . Callan , B . : So we 're talking a lot of compressors there . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . And they had metal detectors . And they had machines . Stick your hands in and check you for radiation . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Callan , B . : So did they do pretty regular testing overall on people who worked at the facility ? Radiological testing and whatnot ? Marrow , G . : Oh , I 'm not familiar with that . I don 't - - Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Callan , B . : How long were the change houses out there ? Kind of in the earlier - - Marrow , G . : Yeah . How long did they have them ? Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Callan , B . : Did you yourself ever have to go to the dispensary to have them - - ? Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : Well , they 'd uh - - You had people like that . That try to , you know , do the job faster than what it 's supposed to be done and stuff like that . Callan , B . : What would say was your most challenging assignment that you had to do out there , either as an individual or as a group of people ? What was the most difficult thing you had to do while working in the K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Callan , B . : What would say was your most significant accomplishment as a group out there - - or as an individual ? Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Callan , B . : Gamble Valley . I 've heard that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Marrow , G . : Well , I 'd probably write about the plant at Oak Ridge . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up .

Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up . Description Rating Title Marrow , Guinn Description Oral History of Guinn Marrow , Interviewed by Bart Callan , May 17 , 2005 Audio Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / audio / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . mp3 Video Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / videojs / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . htm Transcript Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / Transcripts _ and _ photos / K - 25 / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . doc Collection Name K - 25 Related Collections COROH Interviewee Marrow , Guinn Interviewer Callan , Bart Type video Language English Subject Atomic Bomb ; Blacks ; Cattle cars ; Dormitories ; Housing ; K - 25 ; Manhattan Project , 1942 - 1945 ; Oak Ridge ( Tenn . ) ; X - 10 ; Y - 12 ; People Brantley , Jerry ; Brelant , Bud ; Hackworth , Jim ; Sawicki , Joe ; Truman , Harry ; Willis , Dick ; Winkle , Robert ( Bob ) ; Places Camp Blandon ( Fl . ) ; Clinch River ; Gamble Valley ; Jackson Square ; K - 29 ; Madisonville ( Ky . ) ; Monroe County ( Tenn . ) ; New York City ( N . Y . ) ; Paducah ( Ky . ) ; Polk County ( Tenn . ) ; Scarboro ( Tenn . ) ; Tellico Plains ( Tenn . ) ; Organizations / Programs J . A . Jones and Company ; MAN Program ; Tennessee Valley Authority ( TVA ) ; U . S . Army ; Union Carbide ; Things / Other Flattops ; Date of Original 2005 Format flv , doc , mp3 Length 1 hour , 17 minutes File Size 1 . 20 GB Source K - 25 Location of Original Oak Ridge Public Library Rights Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge , Oak Ridge , TN 37830 Disclaimer : " This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government . Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof , nor any of their employees , makes any warranty , express or implied , or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy , completeness , or usefulness of any information , apparatus , product , or process disclosed , or represents that process , or service by trade name , trademark , manufacturer , or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement , recommendation , or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof . The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of theDate : 5 / 17 / 05 Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Marrow , G . : Guinn Marrow . G - U - I - N - N M - A - R - R - O - W . Callan , B . : Okay . And how old are you , if you don 't mind me asking ? Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Okay . I worked for J . A . Jones on the railroad for - - ' til I was 18 years old and they hired me at Union Carbide . Callan , B . : Okay . And what kind of railroad construction were you doing ? Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , I was one of 11 kids in our family . My daddy raised us on a farm - - a rented farm , not ours - - and so all of us went to work as prior as we could to try to help the family out . Callan , B . : And so how did you first hear about work happening up here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . So we caught the truck the next morning and come up here , and they hired us right off . Callan , B . : And what did you first think about the place up here when you first arrived up here with all the activity going on ? Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . I started there and worked until March , the end of March of ' 90 . Callan , B . : Okay . So you were how old when you started working out here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Callan , B . : So did you pretty much see the facility come up from nothing from where they started laying the slab and put the whole thing together ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Callan , B . : Was it an impressive site to see , that building ? Callan , B . : Well , tell me about it . How big was it ? Marrow , G . : Well , the K - 25 building 's a quarter of a mile wide and a mile long . It 's in a U - shape . Callan , B . : And how many people were out there working on it ? Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Then later on they merged all these classifications into maintenance mechanics . That covers a lot of the different classifications , maintenance mechanic did . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . [ 1 : 23 : 41 ] Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Callan , B . : How many people would you say were working up on the operations floor at any given time ? Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - [ End of Tape 1 , Begin Tape 2 ] Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Can you give me that whole story again about how you started ? You were here , and - - Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . And so I come back and I worked there until end of March of 1990 . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Callan , B . : He told me some outrageous stories when we were at dinner about sneaking in whiskey and some of his adventures with that . I guess initially the secret city - - I guess there was prohibition , too , really . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . And a few people was working around there for TVA , but a lot of them quit that and started to work up here . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Callan , B . : Were you treated pretty well by your managers or the folks at Union Carbide ? Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Callan , B . : And on that day , what was it like the day that you found out or that you heard the bomb was dropped ? Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . When a young 18 - year - old kid was trained to do something , you know , they want to do it . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Marrow , G . : I don 't know . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Callan , B . : It sounds similar to something that - - Are you familiar with Jim Hackworth ? Marrow , G . : He 's the one that got me in on this . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Callan , B . : He said sometimes they had to have Easter egg hunts . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . That 's uh - - Callan , B . : Tell me what an Easter egg hunt is . Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No he didn 't . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Callan , B . : And so it was just kind of turning a couple valves ? Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Callan , B . : So if there was a cell leak or something like that , I guess all the cells - they had a housing around them . That 's why it was so hot inside the cells itself was because of the housing ? Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Callan , B . : How come they didn 't use housings on K - 29 ? Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had to go in there and pull the seals out of the compressors and close everything off . You know , make it where any of that gas was left in there couldn 't escape . Callan , B . : So you said pull the seals off the compressors . Was that every single compressor there ? Marrow , G . : I don 't - - right now I couldn 't say . I think it 's 12 compressors to a cell . Callan , B . : So we 're talking a lot of compressors there . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . And they had metal detectors . And they had machines . Stick your hands in and check you for radiation . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Callan , B . : So did they do pretty regular testing overall on people who worked at the facility ? Radiological testing and whatnot ? Marrow , G . : Oh , I 'm not familiar with that . I don 't - - Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Callan , B . : How long were the change houses out there ? Kind of in the earlier - - Marrow , G . : Yeah . How long did they have them ? Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Callan , B . : Did you yourself ever have to go to the dispensary to have them - - ? Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : Well , they 'd uh - - You had people like that . That try to , you know , do the job faster than what it 's supposed to be done and stuff like that . Callan , B . : What would say was your most challenging assignment that you had to do out there , either as an individual or as a group of people ? What was the most difficult thing you had to do while working in the K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Callan , B . : What would say was your most significant accomplishment as a group out there - - or as an individual ? Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Callan , B . : Gamble Valley . I 've heard that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Marrow , G . : Well , I 'd probably write about the plant at Oak Ridge . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up .

Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up . Description Rating Title Marrow , Guinn Description Oral History of Guinn Marrow , Interviewed by Bart Callan , May 17 , 2005 Audio Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / audio / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . mp3 Video Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / videojs / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . htm Transcript Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / Transcripts _ and _ photos / K - 25 / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . doc Collection Name K - 25 Related Collections COROH Interviewee Marrow , Guinn Interviewer Callan , Bart Type video Language English Subject Atomic Bomb ; Blacks ; Cattle cars ; Dormitories ; Housing ; K - 25 ; Manhattan Project , 1942 - 1945 ; Oak Ridge ( Tenn . ) ; X - 10 ; Y - 12 ; People Brantley , Jerry ; Brelant , Bud ; Hackworth , Jim ; Sawicki , Joe ; Truman , Harry ; Willis , Dick ; Winkle , Robert ( Bob ) ; Places Camp Blandon ( Fl . ) ; Clinch River ; Gamble Valley ; Jackson Square ; K - 29 ; Madisonville ( Ky . ) ; Monroe County ( Tenn . ) ; New York City ( N . Y . ) ; Paducah ( Ky . ) ; Polk County ( Tenn . ) ; Scarboro ( Tenn . ) ; Tellico Plains ( Tenn . ) ; Organizations / Programs J . A . Jones and Company ; MAN Program ; Tennessee Valley Authority ( TVA ) ; U . S . Army ; Union Carbide ; Things / Other Flattops ; Date of Original 2005 Format flv , doc , mp3 Length 1 hour , 17 minutes File Size 1 . 20 GB Source K - 25 Location of Original Oak Ridge Public Library Rights Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge , Oak Ridge , TN 37830 Disclaimer : " This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government . Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof , nor any of their employees , makes any warranty , express or implied , or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy , completeness , or usefulness of any information , apparatus , product , or process disclosed , or represents that process , or service by trade name , trademark , manufacturer , or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement , recommendation , or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof . The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of theDate : 5 / 17 / 05 Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Marrow , G . : Guinn Marrow . G - U - I - N - N M - A - R - R - O - W . Callan , B . : Okay . And how old are you , if you don 't mind me asking ? Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Okay . I worked for J . A . Jones on the railroad for - - ' til I was 18 years old and they hired me at Union Carbide . Callan , B . : Okay . And what kind of railroad construction were you doing ? Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , I was one of 11 kids in our family . My daddy raised us on a farm - - a rented farm , not ours - - and so all of us went to work as prior as we could to try to help the family out . Callan , B . : And so how did you first hear about work happening up here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . So we caught the truck the next morning and come up here , and they hired us right off . Callan , B . : And what did you first think about the place up here when you first arrived up here with all the activity going on ? Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . I started there and worked until March , the end of March of ' 90 . Callan , B . : Okay . So you were how old when you started working out here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Callan , B . : So did you pretty much see the facility come up from nothing from where they started laying the slab and put the whole thing together ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Callan , B . : Was it an impressive site to see , that building ? Callan , B . : Well , tell me about it . How big was it ? Marrow , G . : Well , the K - 25 building 's a quarter of a mile wide and a mile long . It 's in a U - shape . Callan , B . : And how many people were out there working on it ? Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Then later on they merged all these classifications into maintenance mechanics . That covers a lot of the different classifications , maintenance mechanic did . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . [ 1 : 23 : 41 ] Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Callan , B . : How many people would you say were working up on the operations floor at any given time ? Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - [ End of Tape 1 , Begin Tape 2 ] Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Can you give me that whole story again about how you started ? You were here , and - - Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . And so I come back and I worked there until end of March of 1990 . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Callan , B . : He told me some outrageous stories when we were at dinner about sneaking in whiskey and some of his adventures with that . I guess initially the secret city - - I guess there was prohibition , too , really . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . And a few people was working around there for TVA , but a lot of them quit that and started to work up here . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Callan , B . : Were you treated pretty well by your managers or the folks at Union Carbide ? Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Callan , B . : And on that day , what was it like the day that you found out or that you heard the bomb was dropped ? Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . When a young 18 - year - old kid was trained to do something , you know , they want to do it . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Marrow , G . : I don 't know . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Callan , B . : It sounds similar to something that - - Are you familiar with Jim Hackworth ? Marrow , G . : He 's the one that got me in on this . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Callan , B . : He said sometimes they had to have Easter egg hunts . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . That 's uh - - Callan , B . : Tell me what an Easter egg hunt is . Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No he didn 't . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Callan , B . : And so it was just kind of turning a couple valves ? Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Callan , B . : So if there was a cell leak or something like that , I guess all the cells - they had a housing around them . That 's why it was so hot inside the cells itself was because of the housing ? Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Callan , B . : How come they didn 't use housings on K - 29 ? Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had to go in there and pull the seals out of the compressors and close everything off . You know , make it where any of that gas was left in there couldn 't escape . Callan , B . : So you said pull the seals off the compressors . Was that every single compressor there ? Marrow , G . : I don 't - - right now I couldn 't say . I think it 's 12 compressors to a cell . Callan , B . : So we 're talking a lot of compressors there . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . And they had metal detectors . And they had machines . Stick your hands in and check you for radiation . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Callan , B . : So did they do pretty regular testing overall on people who worked at the facility ? Radiological testing and whatnot ? Marrow , G . : Oh , I 'm not familiar with that . I don 't - - Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Callan , B . : How long were the change houses out there ? Kind of in the earlier - - Marrow , G . : Yeah . How long did they have them ? Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Callan , B . : Did you yourself ever have to go to the dispensary to have them - - ? Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : Well , they 'd uh - - You had people like that . That try to , you know , do the job faster than what it 's supposed to be done and stuff like that . Callan , B . : What would say was your most challenging assignment that you had to do out there , either as an individual or as a group of people ? What was the most difficult thing you had to do while working in the K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Callan , B . : What would say was your most significant accomplishment as a group out there - - or as an individual ? Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Callan , B . : Gamble Valley . I 've heard that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Marrow , G . : Well , I 'd probably write about the plant at Oak Ridge . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up .

Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up . Description Rating Title Marrow , Guinn Description Oral History of Guinn Marrow , Interviewed by Bart Callan , May 17 , 2005 Audio Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / audio / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . mp3 Video Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / videojs / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . htm Transcript Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / Transcripts _ and _ photos / K - 25 / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . doc Collection Name K - 25 Related Collections COROH Interviewee Marrow , Guinn Interviewer Callan , Bart Type video Language English Subject Atomic Bomb ; Blacks ; Cattle cars ; Dormitories ; Housing ; K - 25 ; Manhattan Project , 1942 - 1945 ; Oak Ridge ( Tenn . ) ; X - 10 ; Y - 12 ; People Brantley , Jerry ; Brelant , Bud ; Hackworth , Jim ; Sawicki , Joe ; Truman , Harry ; Willis , Dick ; Winkle , Robert ( Bob ) ; Places Camp Blandon ( Fl . ) ; Clinch River ; Gamble Valley ; Jackson Square ; K - 29 ; Madisonville ( Ky . ) ; Monroe County ( Tenn . ) ; New York City ( N . Y . ) ; Paducah ( Ky . ) ; Polk County ( Tenn . ) ; Scarboro ( Tenn . ) ; Tellico Plains ( Tenn . ) ; Organizations / Programs J . A . Jones and Company ; MAN Program ; Tennessee Valley Authority ( TVA ) ; U . S . Army ; Union Carbide ; Things / Other Flattops ; Date of Original 2005 Format flv , doc , mp3 Length 1 hour , 17 minutes File Size 1 . 20 GB Source K - 25 Location of Original Oak Ridge Public Library Rights Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge , Oak Ridge , TN 37830 Disclaimer : " This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government . Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof , nor any of their employees , makes any warranty , express or implied , or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy , completeness , or usefulness of any information , apparatus , product , or process disclosed , or represents that process , or service by trade name , trademark , manufacturer , or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement , recommendation , or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof . The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of theDate : 5 / 17 / 05 Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Marrow , G . : Guinn Marrow . G - U - I - N - N M - A - R - R - O - W . Callan , B . : Okay . And how old are you , if you don 't mind me asking ? Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Okay . I worked for J . A . Jones on the railroad for - - ' til I was 18 years old and they hired me at Union Carbide . Callan , B . : Okay . And what kind of railroad construction were you doing ? Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , I was one of 11 kids in our family . My daddy raised us on a farm - - a rented farm , not ours - - and so all of us went to work as prior as we could to try to help the family out . Callan , B . : And so how did you first hear about work happening up here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . So we caught the truck the next morning and come up here , and they hired us right off . Callan , B . : And what did you first think about the place up here when you first arrived up here with all the activity going on ? Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . I started there and worked until March , the end of March of ' 90 . Callan , B . : Okay . So you were how old when you started working out here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Callan , B . : So did you pretty much see the facility come up from nothing from where they started laying the slab and put the whole thing together ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Callan , B . : Was it an impressive site to see , that building ? Callan , B . : Well , tell me about it . How big was it ? Marrow , G . : Well , the K - 25 building 's a quarter of a mile wide and a mile long . It 's in a U - shape . Callan , B . : And how many people were out there working on it ? Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Then later on they merged all these classifications into maintenance mechanics . That covers a lot of the different classifications , maintenance mechanic did . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . [ 1 : 23 : 41 ] Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Callan , B . : How many people would you say were working up on the operations floor at any given time ? Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - [ End of Tape 1 , Begin Tape 2 ] Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Can you give me that whole story again about how you started ? You were here , and - - Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . And so I come back and I worked there until end of March of 1990 . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Callan , B . : He told me some outrageous stories when we were at dinner about sneaking in whiskey and some of his adventures with that . I guess initially the secret city - - I guess there was prohibition , too , really . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . And a few people was working around there for TVA , but a lot of them quit that and started to work up here . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Callan , B . : Were you treated pretty well by your managers or the folks at Union Carbide ? Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Callan , B . : And on that day , what was it like the day that you found out or that you heard the bomb was dropped ? Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . When a young 18 - year - old kid was trained to do something , you know , they want to do it . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Marrow , G . : I don 't know . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Callan , B . : It sounds similar to something that - - Are you familiar with Jim Hackworth ? Marrow , G . : He 's the one that got me in on this . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Callan , B . : He said sometimes they had to have Easter egg hunts . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . That 's uh - - Callan , B . : Tell me what an Easter egg hunt is . Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No he didn 't . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Callan , B . : And so it was just kind of turning a couple valves ? Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Callan , B . : So if there was a cell leak or something like that , I guess all the cells - they had a housing around them . That 's why it was so hot inside the cells itself was because of the housing ? Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Callan , B . : How come they didn 't use housings on K - 29 ? Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had to go in there and pull the seals out of the compressors and close everything off . You know , make it where any of that gas was left in there couldn 't escape . Callan , B . : So you said pull the seals off the compressors . Was that every single compressor there ? Marrow , G . : I don 't - - right now I couldn 't say . I think it 's 12 compressors to a cell . Callan , B . : So we 're talking a lot of compressors there . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . And they had metal detectors . And they had machines . Stick your hands in and check you for radiation . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Callan , B . : So did they do pretty regular testing overall on people who worked at the facility ? Radiological testing and whatnot ? Marrow , G . : Oh , I 'm not familiar with that . I don 't - - Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Callan , B . : How long were the change houses out there ? Kind of in the earlier - - Marrow , G . : Yeah . How long did they have them ? Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Callan , B . : Did you yourself ever have to go to the dispensary to have them - - ? Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : Well , they 'd uh - - You had people like that . That try to , you know , do the job faster than what it 's supposed to be done and stuff like that . Callan , B . : What would say was your most challenging assignment that you had to do out there , either as an individual or as a group of people ? What was the most difficult thing you had to do while working in the K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Callan , B . : What would say was your most significant accomplishment as a group out there - - or as an individual ? Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Callan , B . : Gamble Valley . I 've heard that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Marrow , G . : Well , I 'd probably write about the plant at Oak Ridge . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up .

Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up . Description Rating Title Marrow , Guinn Description Oral History of Guinn Marrow , Interviewed by Bart Callan , May 17 , 2005 Audio Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / audio / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . mp3 Video Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / videojs / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . htm Transcript Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / Transcripts _ and _ photos / K - 25 / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . doc Collection Name K - 25 Related Collections COROH Interviewee Marrow , Guinn Interviewer Callan , Bart Type video Language English Subject Atomic Bomb ; Blacks ; Cattle cars ; Dormitories ; Housing ; K - 25 ; Manhattan Project , 1942 - 1945 ; Oak Ridge ( Tenn . ) ; X - 10 ; Y - 12 ; People Brantley , Jerry ; Brelant , Bud ; Hackworth , Jim ; Sawicki , Joe ; Truman , Harry ; Willis , Dick ; Winkle , Robert ( Bob ) ; Places Camp Blandon ( Fl . ) ; Clinch River ; Gamble Valley ; Jackson Square ; K - 29 ; Madisonville ( Ky . ) ; Monroe County ( Tenn . ) ; New York City ( N . Y . ) ; Paducah ( Ky . ) ; Polk County ( Tenn . ) ; Scarboro ( Tenn . ) ; Tellico Plains ( Tenn . ) ; Organizations / Programs J . A . Jones and Company ; MAN Program ; Tennessee Valley Authority ( TVA ) ; U . S . Army ; Union Carbide ; Things / Other Flattops ; Date of Original 2005 Format flv , doc , mp3 Length 1 hour , 17 minutes File Size 1 . 20 GB Source K - 25 Location of Original Oak Ridge Public Library Rights Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge , Oak Ridge , TN 37830 Disclaimer : " This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government . Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof , nor any of their employees , makes any warranty , express or implied , or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy , completeness , or usefulness of any information , apparatus , product , or process disclosed , or represents that process , or service by trade name , trademark , manufacturer , or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement , recommendation , or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof . The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of theDate : 5 / 17 / 05 Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Marrow , G . : Guinn Marrow . G - U - I - N - N M - A - R - R - O - W . Callan , B . : Okay . And how old are you , if you don 't mind me asking ? Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Okay . I worked for J . A . Jones on the railroad for - - ' til I was 18 years old and they hired me at Union Carbide . Callan , B . : Okay . And what kind of railroad construction were you doing ? Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , I was one of 11 kids in our family . My daddy raised us on a farm - - a rented farm , not ours - - and so all of us went to work as prior as we could to try to help the family out . Callan , B . : And so how did you first hear about work happening up here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . So we caught the truck the next morning and come up here , and they hired us right off . Callan , B . : And what did you first think about the place up here when you first arrived up here with all the activity going on ? Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . I started there and worked until March , the end of March of ' 90 . Callan , B . : Okay . So you were how old when you started working out here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Callan , B . : So did you pretty much see the facility come up from nothing from where they started laying the slab and put the whole thing together ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Callan , B . : Was it an impressive site to see , that building ? Callan , B . : Well , tell me about it . How big was it ? Marrow , G . : Well , the K - 25 building 's a quarter of a mile wide and a mile long . It 's in a U - shape . Callan , B . : And how many people were out there working on it ? Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Then later on they merged all these classifications into maintenance mechanics . That covers a lot of the different classifications , maintenance mechanic did . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . [ 1 : 23 : 41 ] Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Callan , B . : How many people would you say were working up on the operations floor at any given time ? Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - [ End of Tape 1 , Begin Tape 2 ] Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Can you give me that whole story again about how you started ? You were here , and - - Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . And so I come back and I worked there until end of March of 1990 . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Callan , B . : He told me some outrageous stories when we were at dinner about sneaking in whiskey and some of his adventures with that . I guess initially the secret city - - I guess there was prohibition , too , really . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . And a few people was working around there for TVA , but a lot of them quit that and started to work up here . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Callan , B . : Were you treated pretty well by your managers or the folks at Union Carbide ? Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Callan , B . : And on that day , what was it like the day that you found out or that you heard the bomb was dropped ? Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . When a young 18 - year - old kid was trained to do something , you know , they want to do it . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Marrow , G . : I don 't know . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Callan , B . : It sounds similar to something that - - Are you familiar with Jim Hackworth ? Marrow , G . : He 's the one that got me in on this . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Callan , B . : He said sometimes they had to have Easter egg hunts . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . That 's uh - - Callan , B . : Tell me what an Easter egg hunt is . Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No he didn 't . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Callan , B . : And so it was just kind of turning a couple valves ? Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Callan , B . : So if there was a cell leak or something like that , I guess all the cells - they had a housing around them . That 's why it was so hot inside the cells itself was because of the housing ? Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Callan , B . : How come they didn 't use housings on K - 29 ? Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had to go in there and pull the seals out of the compressors and close everything off . You know , make it where any of that gas was left in there couldn 't escape . Callan , B . : So you said pull the seals off the compressors . Was that every single compressor there ? Marrow , G . : I don 't - - right now I couldn 't say . I think it 's 12 compressors to a cell . Callan , B . : So we 're talking a lot of compressors there . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . And they had metal detectors . And they had machines . Stick your hands in and check you for radiation . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Callan , B . : So did they do pretty regular testing overall on people who worked at the facility ? Radiological testing and whatnot ? Marrow , G . : Oh , I 'm not familiar with that . I don 't - - Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Callan , B . : How long were the change houses out there ? Kind of in the earlier - - Marrow , G . : Yeah . How long did they have them ? Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Callan , B . : Did you yourself ever have to go to the dispensary to have them - - ? Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : Well , they 'd uh - - You had people like that . That try to , you know , do the job faster than what it 's supposed to be done and stuff like that . Callan , B . : What would say was your most challenging assignment that you had to do out there , either as an individual or as a group of people ? What was the most difficult thing you had to do while working in the K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Callan , B . : What would say was your most significant accomplishment as a group out there - - or as an individual ? Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Callan , B . : Gamble Valley . I 've heard that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Marrow , G . : Well , I 'd probably write about the plant at Oak Ridge . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up .

Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up . Description Rating Title Marrow , Guinn Description Oral History of Guinn Marrow , Interviewed by Bart Callan , May 17 , 2005 Audio Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / audio / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . mp3 Video Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / videojs / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . htm Transcript Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / Transcripts _ and _ photos / K - 25 / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . doc Collection Name K - 25 Related Collections COROH Interviewee Marrow , Guinn Interviewer Callan , Bart Type video Language English Subject Atomic Bomb ; Blacks ; Cattle cars ; Dormitories ; Housing ; K - 25 ; Manhattan Project , 1942 - 1945 ; Oak Ridge ( Tenn . ) ; X - 10 ; Y - 12 ; People Brantley , Jerry ; Brelant , Bud ; Hackworth , Jim ; Sawicki , Joe ; Truman , Harry ; Willis , Dick ; Winkle , Robert ( Bob ) ; Places Camp Blandon ( Fl . ) ; Clinch River ; Gamble Valley ; Jackson Square ; K - 29 ; Madisonville ( Ky . ) ; Monroe County ( Tenn . ) ; New York City ( N . Y . ) ; Paducah ( Ky . ) ; Polk County ( Tenn . ) ; Scarboro ( Tenn . ) ; Tellico Plains ( Tenn . ) ; Organizations / Programs J . A . Jones and Company ; MAN Program ; Tennessee Valley Authority ( TVA ) ; U . S . Army ; Union Carbide ; Things / Other Flattops ; Date of Original 2005 Format flv , doc , mp3 Length 1 hour , 17 minutes File Size 1 . 20 GB Source K - 25 Location of Original Oak Ridge Public Library Rights Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge , Oak Ridge , TN 37830 Disclaimer : " This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government . Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof , nor any of their employees , makes any warranty , express or implied , or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy , completeness , or usefulness of any information , apparatus , product , or process disclosed , or represents that process , or service by trade name , trademark , manufacturer , or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement , recommendation , or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof . The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of theDate : 5 / 17 / 05 Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Marrow , G . : Guinn Marrow . G - U - I - N - N M - A - R - R - O - W . Callan , B . : Okay . And how old are you , if you don 't mind me asking ? Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Okay . I worked for J . A . Jones on the railroad for - - ' til I was 18 years old and they hired me at Union Carbide . Callan , B . : Okay . And what kind of railroad construction were you doing ? Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , I was one of 11 kids in our family . My daddy raised us on a farm - - a rented farm , not ours - - and so all of us went to work as prior as we could to try to help the family out . Callan , B . : And so how did you first hear about work happening up here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . So we caught the truck the next morning and come up here , and they hired us right off . Callan , B . : And what did you first think about the place up here when you first arrived up here with all the activity going on ? Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . I started there and worked until March , the end of March of ' 90 . Callan , B . : Okay . So you were how old when you started working out here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Callan , B . : So did you pretty much see the facility come up from nothing from where they started laying the slab and put the whole thing together ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Callan , B . : Was it an impressive site to see , that building ? Callan , B . : Well , tell me about it . How big was it ? Marrow , G . : Well , the K - 25 building 's a quarter of a mile wide and a mile long . It 's in a U - shape . Callan , B . : And how many people were out there working on it ? Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Then later on they merged all these classifications into maintenance mechanics . That covers a lot of the different classifications , maintenance mechanic did . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . [ 1 : 23 : 41 ] Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Callan , B . : How many people would you say were working up on the operations floor at any given time ? Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - [ End of Tape 1 , Begin Tape 2 ] Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Can you give me that whole story again about how you started ? You were here , and - - Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . And so I come back and I worked there until end of March of 1990 . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Callan , B . : He told me some outrageous stories when we were at dinner about sneaking in whiskey and some of his adventures with that . I guess initially the secret city - - I guess there was prohibition , too , really . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . And a few people was working around there for TVA , but a lot of them quit that and started to work up here . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Callan , B . : Were you treated pretty well by your managers or the folks at Union Carbide ? Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Callan , B . : And on that day , what was it like the day that you found out or that you heard the bomb was dropped ? Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . When a young 18 - year - old kid was trained to do something , you know , they want to do it . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Marrow , G . : I don 't know . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Callan , B . : It sounds similar to something that - - Are you familiar with Jim Hackworth ? Marrow , G . : He 's the one that got me in on this . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Callan , B . : He said sometimes they had to have Easter egg hunts . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . That 's uh - - Callan , B . : Tell me what an Easter egg hunt is . Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No he didn 't . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Callan , B . : And so it was just kind of turning a couple valves ? Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Callan , B . : So if there was a cell leak or something like that , I guess all the cells - they had a housing around them . That 's why it was so hot inside the cells itself was because of the housing ? Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Callan , B . : How come they didn 't use housings on K - 29 ? Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had to go in there and pull the seals out of the compressors and close everything off . You know , make it where any of that gas was left in there couldn 't escape . Callan , B . : So you said pull the seals off the compressors . Was that every single compressor there ? Marrow , G . : I don 't - - right now I couldn 't say . I think it 's 12 compressors to a cell . Callan , B . : So we 're talking a lot of compressors there . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . And they had metal detectors . And they had machines . Stick your hands in and check you for radiation . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Callan , B . : So did they do pretty regular testing overall on people who worked at the facility ? Radiological testing and whatnot ? Marrow , G . : Oh , I 'm not familiar with that . I don 't - - Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Callan , B . : How long were the change houses out there ? Kind of in the earlier - - Marrow , G . : Yeah . How long did they have them ? Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Callan , B . : Did you yourself ever have to go to the dispensary to have them - - ? Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : Well , they 'd uh - - You had people like that . That try to , you know , do the job faster than what it 's supposed to be done and stuff like that . Callan , B . : What would say was your most challenging assignment that you had to do out there , either as an individual or as a group of people ? What was the most difficult thing you had to do while working in the K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Callan , B . : What would say was your most significant accomplishment as a group out there - - or as an individual ? Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Callan , B . : Gamble Valley . I 've heard that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Marrow , G . : Well , I 'd probably write about the plant at Oak Ridge . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up .

Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up . Description Rating Title Marrow , Guinn Description Oral History of Guinn Marrow , Interviewed by Bart Callan , May 17 , 2005 Audio Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / audio / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . mp3 Video Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / videojs / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . htm Transcript Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / Transcripts _ and _ photos / K - 25 / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . doc Collection Name K - 25 Related Collections COROH Interviewee Marrow , Guinn Interviewer Callan , Bart Type video Language English Subject Atomic Bomb ; Blacks ; Cattle cars ; Dormitories ; Housing ; K - 25 ; Manhattan Project , 1942 - 1945 ; Oak Ridge ( Tenn . ) ; X - 10 ; Y - 12 ; People Brantley , Jerry ; Brelant , Bud ; Hackworth , Jim ; Sawicki , Joe ; Truman , Harry ; Willis , Dick ; Winkle , Robert ( Bob ) ; Places Camp Blandon ( Fl . ) ; Clinch River ; Gamble Valley ; Jackson Square ; K - 29 ; Madisonville ( Ky . ) ; Monroe County ( Tenn . ) ; New York City ( N . Y . ) ; Paducah ( Ky . ) ; Polk County ( Tenn . ) ; Scarboro ( Tenn . ) ; Tellico Plains ( Tenn . ) ; Organizations / Programs J . A . Jones and Company ; MAN Program ; Tennessee Valley Authority ( TVA ) ; U . S . Army ; Union Carbide ; Things / Other Flattops ; Date of Original 2005 Format flv , doc , mp3 Length 1 hour , 17 minutes File Size 1 . 20 GB Source K - 25 Location of Original Oak Ridge Public Library Rights Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge , Oak Ridge , TN 37830 Disclaimer : " This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government . Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof , nor any of their employees , makes any warranty , express or implied , or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy , completeness , or usefulness of any information , apparatus , product , or process disclosed , or represents that process , or service by trade name , trademark , manufacturer , or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement , recommendation , or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof . The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of theDate : 5 / 17 / 05 Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Marrow , G . : Guinn Marrow . G - U - I - N - N M - A - R - R - O - W . Callan , B . : Okay . And how old are you , if you don 't mind me asking ? Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Okay . I worked for J . A . Jones on the railroad for - - ' til I was 18 years old and they hired me at Union Carbide . Callan , B . : Okay . And what kind of railroad construction were you doing ? Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , I was one of 11 kids in our family . My daddy raised us on a farm - - a rented farm , not ours - - and so all of us went to work as prior as we could to try to help the family out . Callan , B . : And so how did you first hear about work happening up here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . So we caught the truck the next morning and come up here , and they hired us right off . Callan , B . : And what did you first think about the place up here when you first arrived up here with all the activity going on ? Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . I started there and worked until March , the end of March of ' 90 . Callan , B . : Okay . So you were how old when you started working out here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Callan , B . : So did you pretty much see the facility come up from nothing from where they started laying the slab and put the whole thing together ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Callan , B . : Was it an impressive site to see , that building ? Callan , B . : Well , tell me about it . How big was it ? Marrow , G . : Well , the K - 25 building 's a quarter of a mile wide and a mile long . It 's in a U - shape . Callan , B . : And how many people were out there working on it ? Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Then later on they merged all these classifications into maintenance mechanics . That covers a lot of the different classifications , maintenance mechanic did . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . [ 1 : 23 : 41 ] Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Callan , B . : How many people would you say were working up on the operations floor at any given time ? Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - [ End of Tape 1 , Begin Tape 2 ] Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Can you give me that whole story again about how you started ? You were here , and - - Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . And so I come back and I worked there until end of March of 1990 . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Callan , B . : He told me some outrageous stories when we were at dinner about sneaking in whiskey and some of his adventures with that . I guess initially the secret city - - I guess there was prohibition , too , really . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . And a few people was working around there for TVA , but a lot of them quit that and started to work up here . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Callan , B . : Were you treated pretty well by your managers or the folks at Union Carbide ? Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Callan , B . : And on that day , what was it like the day that you found out or that you heard the bomb was dropped ? Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . When a young 18 - year - old kid was trained to do something , you know , they want to do it . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Marrow , G . : I don 't know . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Callan , B . : It sounds similar to something that - - Are you familiar with Jim Hackworth ? Marrow , G . : He 's the one that got me in on this . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Callan , B . : He said sometimes they had to have Easter egg hunts . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . That 's uh - - Callan , B . : Tell me what an Easter egg hunt is . Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No he didn 't . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Callan , B . : And so it was just kind of turning a couple valves ? Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Callan , B . : So if there was a cell leak or something like that , I guess all the cells - they had a housing around them . That 's why it was so hot inside the cells itself was because of the housing ? Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Callan , B . : How come they didn 't use housings on K - 29 ? Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had to go in there and pull the seals out of the compressors and close everything off . You know , make it where any of that gas was left in there couldn 't escape . Callan , B . : So you said pull the seals off the compressors . Was that every single compressor there ? Marrow , G . : I don 't - - right now I couldn 't say . I think it 's 12 compressors to a cell . Callan , B . : So we 're talking a lot of compressors there . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . And they had metal detectors . And they had machines . Stick your hands in and check you for radiation . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Callan , B . : So did they do pretty regular testing overall on people who worked at the facility ? Radiological testing and whatnot ? Marrow , G . : Oh , I 'm not familiar with that . I don 't - - Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Callan , B . : How long were the change houses out there ? Kind of in the earlier - - Marrow , G . : Yeah . How long did they have them ? Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Callan , B . : Did you yourself ever have to go to the dispensary to have them - - ? Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : Well , they 'd uh - - You had people like that . That try to , you know , do the job faster than what it 's supposed to be done and stuff like that . Callan , B . : What would say was your most challenging assignment that you had to do out there , either as an individual or as a group of people ? What was the most difficult thing you had to do while working in the K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Callan , B . : What would say was your most significant accomplishment as a group out there - - or as an individual ? Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Callan , B . : Gamble Valley . I 've heard that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Marrow , G . : Well , I 'd probably write about the plant at Oak Ridge . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up .

Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up . Description Rating Title Marrow , Guinn Description Oral History of Guinn Marrow , Interviewed by Bart Callan , May 17 , 2005 Audio Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / audio / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . mp3 Video Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / videojs / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . htm Transcript Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / Transcripts _ and _ photos / K - 25 / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . doc Collection Name K - 25 Related Collections COROH Interviewee Marrow , Guinn Interviewer Callan , Bart Type video Language English Subject Atomic Bomb ; Blacks ; Cattle cars ; Dormitories ; Housing ; K - 25 ; Manhattan Project , 1942 - 1945 ; Oak Ridge ( Tenn . ) ; X - 10 ; Y - 12 ; People Brantley , Jerry ; Brelant , Bud ; Hackworth , Jim ; Sawicki , Joe ; Truman , Harry ; Willis , Dick ; Winkle , Robert ( Bob ) ; Places Camp Blandon ( Fl . ) ; Clinch River ; Gamble Valley ; Jackson Square ; K - 29 ; Madisonville ( Ky . ) ; Monroe County ( Tenn . ) ; New York City ( N . Y . ) ; Paducah ( Ky . ) ; Polk County ( Tenn . ) ; Scarboro ( Tenn . ) ; Tellico Plains ( Tenn . ) ; Organizations / Programs J . A . Jones and Company ; MAN Program ; Tennessee Valley Authority ( TVA ) ; U . S . Army ; Union Carbide ; Things / Other Flattops ; Date of Original 2005 Format flv , doc , mp3 Length 1 hour , 17 minutes File Size 1 . 20 GB Source K - 25 Location of Original Oak Ridge Public Library Rights Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge , Oak Ridge , TN 37830 Disclaimer : " This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government . Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof , nor any of their employees , makes any warranty , express or implied , or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy , completeness , or usefulness of any information , apparatus , product , or process disclosed , or represents that process , or service by trade name , trademark , manufacturer , or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement , recommendation , or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof . The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of theDate : 5 / 17 / 05 Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Marrow , G . : Guinn Marrow . G - U - I - N - N M - A - R - R - O - W . Callan , B . : Okay . And how old are you , if you don 't mind me asking ? Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Okay . I worked for J . A . Jones on the railroad for - - ' til I was 18 years old and they hired me at Union Carbide . Callan , B . : Okay . And what kind of railroad construction were you doing ? Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , I was one of 11 kids in our family . My daddy raised us on a farm - - a rented farm , not ours - - and so all of us went to work as prior as we could to try to help the family out . Callan , B . : And so how did you first hear about work happening up here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . So we caught the truck the next morning and come up here , and they hired us right off . Callan , B . : And what did you first think about the place up here when you first arrived up here with all the activity going on ? Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . I started there and worked until March , the end of March of ' 90 . Callan , B . : Okay . So you were how old when you started working out here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Callan , B . : So did you pretty much see the facility come up from nothing from where they started laying the slab and put the whole thing together ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Callan , B . : Was it an impressive site to see , that building ? Callan , B . : Well , tell me about it . How big was it ? Marrow , G . : Well , the K - 25 building 's a quarter of a mile wide and a mile long . It 's in a U - shape . Callan , B . : And how many people were out there working on it ? Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Then later on they merged all these classifications into maintenance mechanics . That covers a lot of the different classifications , maintenance mechanic did . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . [ 1 : 23 : 41 ] Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Callan , B . : How many people would you say were working up on the operations floor at any given time ? Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - [ End of Tape 1 , Begin Tape 2 ] Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Can you give me that whole story again about how you started ? You were here , and - - Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . And so I come back and I worked there until end of March of 1990 . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Callan , B . : He told me some outrageous stories when we were at dinner about sneaking in whiskey and some of his adventures with that . I guess initially the secret city - - I guess there was prohibition , too , really . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . And a few people was working around there for TVA , but a lot of them quit that and started to work up here . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Callan , B . : Were you treated pretty well by your managers or the folks at Union Carbide ? Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Callan , B . : And on that day , what was it like the day that you found out or that you heard the bomb was dropped ? Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . When a young 18 - year - old kid was trained to do something , you know , they want to do it . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Marrow , G . : I don 't know . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Callan , B . : It sounds similar to something that - - Are you familiar with Jim Hackworth ? Marrow , G . : He 's the one that got me in on this . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Callan , B . : He said sometimes they had to have Easter egg hunts . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . That 's uh - - Callan , B . : Tell me what an Easter egg hunt is . Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No he didn 't . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Callan , B . : And so it was just kind of turning a couple valves ? Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Callan , B . : So if there was a cell leak or something like that , I guess all the cells - they had a housing around them . That 's why it was so hot inside the cells itself was because of the housing ? Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Callan , B . : How come they didn 't use housings on K - 29 ? Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had to go in there and pull the seals out of the compressors and close everything off . You know , make it where any of that gas was left in there couldn 't escape . Callan , B . : So you said pull the seals off the compressors . Was that every single compressor there ? Marrow , G . : I don 't - - right now I couldn 't say . I think it 's 12 compressors to a cell . Callan , B . : So we 're talking a lot of compressors there . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . And they had metal detectors . And they had machines . Stick your hands in and check you for radiation . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Callan , B . : So did they do pretty regular testing overall on people who worked at the facility ? Radiological testing and whatnot ? Marrow , G . : Oh , I 'm not familiar with that . I don 't - - Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Callan , B . : How long were the change houses out there ? Kind of in the earlier - - Marrow , G . : Yeah . How long did they have them ? Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Callan , B . : Did you yourself ever have to go to the dispensary to have them - - ? Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : Well , they 'd uh - - You had people like that . That try to , you know , do the job faster than what it 's supposed to be done and stuff like that . Callan , B . : What would say was your most challenging assignment that you had to do out there , either as an individual or as a group of people ? What was the most difficult thing you had to do while working in the K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Callan , B . : What would say was your most significant accomplishment as a group out there - - or as an individual ? Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Callan , B . : Gamble Valley . I 've heard that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Marrow , G . : Well , I 'd probably write about the plant at Oak Ridge . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up .

Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up . Description Rating Title Marrow , Guinn Description Oral History of Guinn Marrow , Interviewed by Bart Callan , May 17 , 2005 Audio Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / audio / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . mp3 Video Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / videojs / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . htm Transcript Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / Transcripts _ and _ photos / K - 25 / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . doc Collection Name K - 25 Related Collections COROH Interviewee Marrow , Guinn Interviewer Callan , Bart Type video Language English Subject Atomic Bomb ; Blacks ; Cattle cars ; Dormitories ; Housing ; K - 25 ; Manhattan Project , 1942 - 1945 ; Oak Ridge ( Tenn . ) ; X - 10 ; Y - 12 ; People Brantley , Jerry ; Brelant , Bud ; Hackworth , Jim ; Sawicki , Joe ; Truman , Harry ; Willis , Dick ; Winkle , Robert ( Bob ) ; Places Camp Blandon ( Fl . ) ; Clinch River ; Gamble Valley ; Jackson Square ; K - 29 ; Madisonville ( Ky . ) ; Monroe County ( Tenn . ) ; New York City ( N . Y . ) ; Paducah ( Ky . ) ; Polk County ( Tenn . ) ; Scarboro ( Tenn . ) ; Tellico Plains ( Tenn . ) ; Organizations / Programs J . A . Jones and Company ; MAN Program ; Tennessee Valley Authority ( TVA ) ; U . S . Army ; Union Carbide ; Things / Other Flattops ; Date of Original 2005 Format flv , doc , mp3 Length 1 hour , 17 minutes File Size 1 . 20 GB Source K - 25 Location of Original Oak Ridge Public Library Rights Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge , Oak Ridge , TN 37830 Disclaimer : " This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government . Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof , nor any of their employees , makes any warranty , express or implied , or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy , completeness , or usefulness of any information , apparatus , product , or process disclosed , or represents that process , or service by trade name , trademark , manufacturer , or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement , recommendation , or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof . The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of theDate : 5 / 17 / 05 Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Marrow , G . : Guinn Marrow . G - U - I - N - N M - A - R - R - O - W . Callan , B . : Okay . And how old are you , if you don 't mind me asking ? Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Okay . I worked for J . A . Jones on the railroad for - - ' til I was 18 years old and they hired me at Union Carbide . Callan , B . : Okay . And what kind of railroad construction were you doing ? Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , I was one of 11 kids in our family . My daddy raised us on a farm - - a rented farm , not ours - - and so all of us went to work as prior as we could to try to help the family out . Callan , B . : And so how did you first hear about work happening up here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . So we caught the truck the next morning and come up here , and they hired us right off . Callan , B . : And what did you first think about the place up here when you first arrived up here with all the activity going on ? Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . I started there and worked until March , the end of March of ' 90 . Callan , B . : Okay . So you were how old when you started working out here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Callan , B . : So did you pretty much see the facility come up from nothing from where they started laying the slab and put the whole thing together ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Callan , B . : Was it an impressive site to see , that building ? Callan , B . : Well , tell me about it . How big was it ? Marrow , G . : Well , the K - 25 building 's a quarter of a mile wide and a mile long . It 's in a U - shape . Callan , B . : And how many people were out there working on it ? Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Then later on they merged all these classifications into maintenance mechanics . That covers a lot of the different classifications , maintenance mechanic did . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . [ 1 : 23 : 41 ] Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Callan , B . : How many people would you say were working up on the operations floor at any given time ? Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - [ End of Tape 1 , Begin Tape 2 ] Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Can you give me that whole story again about how you started ? You were here , and - - Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . And so I come back and I worked there until end of March of 1990 . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Callan , B . : He told me some outrageous stories when we were at dinner about sneaking in whiskey and some of his adventures with that . I guess initially the secret city - - I guess there was prohibition , too , really . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . And a few people was working around there for TVA , but a lot of them quit that and started to work up here . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Callan , B . : Were you treated pretty well by your managers or the folks at Union Carbide ? Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Callan , B . : And on that day , what was it like the day that you found out or that you heard the bomb was dropped ? Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . When a young 18 - year - old kid was trained to do something , you know , they want to do it . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Marrow , G . : I don 't know . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Callan , B . : It sounds similar to something that - - Are you familiar with Jim Hackworth ? Marrow , G . : He 's the one that got me in on this . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Callan , B . : He said sometimes they had to have Easter egg hunts . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . That 's uh - - Callan , B . : Tell me what an Easter egg hunt is . Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No he didn 't . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Callan , B . : And so it was just kind of turning a couple valves ? Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Callan , B . : So if there was a cell leak or something like that , I guess all the cells - they had a housing around them . That 's why it was so hot inside the cells itself was because of the housing ? Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Callan , B . : How come they didn 't use housings on K - 29 ? Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had to go in there and pull the seals out of the compressors and close everything off . You know , make it where any of that gas was left in there couldn 't escape . Callan , B . : So you said pull the seals off the compressors . Was that every single compressor there ? Marrow , G . : I don 't - - right now I couldn 't say . I think it 's 12 compressors to a cell . Callan , B . : So we 're talking a lot of compressors there . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . And they had metal detectors . And they had machines . Stick your hands in and check you for radiation . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Callan , B . : So did they do pretty regular testing overall on people who worked at the facility ? Radiological testing and whatnot ? Marrow , G . : Oh , I 'm not familiar with that . I don 't - - Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Callan , B . : How long were the change houses out there ? Kind of in the earlier - - Marrow , G . : Yeah . How long did they have them ? Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Callan , B . : Did you yourself ever have to go to the dispensary to have them - - ? Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : Well , they 'd uh - - You had people like that . That try to , you know , do the job faster than what it 's supposed to be done and stuff like that . Callan , B . : What would say was your most challenging assignment that you had to do out there , either as an individual or as a group of people ? What was the most difficult thing you had to do while working in the K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Callan , B . : What would say was your most significant accomplishment as a group out there - - or as an individual ? Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Callan , B . : Gamble Valley . I 've heard that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Marrow , G . : Well , I 'd probably write about the plant at Oak Ridge . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up .

Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up . Description Rating Title Marrow , Guinn Description Oral History of Guinn Marrow , Interviewed by Bart Callan , May 17 , 2005 Audio Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / audio / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . mp3 Video Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / videojs / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . htm Transcript Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / Transcripts _ and _ photos / K - 25 / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . doc Collection Name K - 25 Related Collections COROH Interviewee Marrow , Guinn Interviewer Callan , Bart Type video Language English Subject Atomic Bomb ; Blacks ; Cattle cars ; Dormitories ; Housing ; K - 25 ; Manhattan Project , 1942 - 1945 ; Oak Ridge ( Tenn . ) ; X - 10 ; Y - 12 ; People Brantley , Jerry ; Brelant , Bud ; Hackworth , Jim ; Sawicki , Joe ; Truman , Harry ; Willis , Dick ; Winkle , Robert ( Bob ) ; Places Camp Blandon ( Fl . ) ; Clinch River ; Gamble Valley ; Jackson Square ; K - 29 ; Madisonville ( Ky . ) ; Monroe County ( Tenn . ) ; New York City ( N . Y . ) ; Paducah ( Ky . ) ; Polk County ( Tenn . ) ; Scarboro ( Tenn . ) ; Tellico Plains ( Tenn . ) ; Organizations / Programs J . A . Jones and Company ; MAN Program ; Tennessee Valley Authority ( TVA ) ; U . S . Army ; Union Carbide ; Things / Other Flattops ; Date of Original 2005 Format flv , doc , mp3 Length 1 hour , 17 minutes File Size 1 . 20 GB Source K - 25 Location of Original Oak Ridge Public Library Rights Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge , Oak Ridge , TN 37830 Disclaimer : " This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government . Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof , nor any of their employees , makes any warranty , express or implied , or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy , completeness , or usefulness of any information , apparatus , product , or process disclosed , or represents that process , or service by trade name , trademark , manufacturer , or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement , recommendation , or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof . The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of theDate : 5 / 17 / 05 Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Marrow , G . : Guinn Marrow . G - U - I - N - N M - A - R - R - O - W . Callan , B . : Okay . And how old are you , if you don 't mind me asking ? Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Okay . I worked for J . A . Jones on the railroad for - - ' til I was 18 years old and they hired me at Union Carbide . Callan , B . : Okay . And what kind of railroad construction were you doing ? Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , I was one of 11 kids in our family . My daddy raised us on a farm - - a rented farm , not ours - - and so all of us went to work as prior as we could to try to help the family out . Callan , B . : And so how did you first hear about work happening up here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . So we caught the truck the next morning and come up here , and they hired us right off . Callan , B . : And what did you first think about the place up here when you first arrived up here with all the activity going on ? Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . I started there and worked until March , the end of March of ' 90 . Callan , B . : Okay . So you were how old when you started working out here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Callan , B . : So did you pretty much see the facility come up from nothing from where they started laying the slab and put the whole thing together ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Callan , B . : Was it an impressive site to see , that building ? Callan , B . : Well , tell me about it . How big was it ? Marrow , G . : Well , the K - 25 building 's a quarter of a mile wide and a mile long . It 's in a U - shape . Callan , B . : And how many people were out there working on it ? Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Then later on they merged all these classifications into maintenance mechanics . That covers a lot of the different classifications , maintenance mechanic did . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . [ 1 : 23 : 41 ] Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Callan , B . : How many people would you say were working up on the operations floor at any given time ? Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - [ End of Tape 1 , Begin Tape 2 ] Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Can you give me that whole story again about how you started ? You were here , and - - Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . And so I come back and I worked there until end of March of 1990 . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Callan , B . : He told me some outrageous stories when we were at dinner about sneaking in whiskey and some of his adventures with that . I guess initially the secret city - - I guess there was prohibition , too , really . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . And a few people was working around there for TVA , but a lot of them quit that and started to work up here . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Callan , B . : Were you treated pretty well by your managers or the folks at Union Carbide ? Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Callan , B . : And on that day , what was it like the day that you found out or that you heard the bomb was dropped ? Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . When a young 18 - year - old kid was trained to do something , you know , they want to do it . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Marrow , G . : I don 't know . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Callan , B . : It sounds similar to something that - - Are you familiar with Jim Hackworth ? Marrow , G . : He 's the one that got me in on this . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Callan , B . : He said sometimes they had to have Easter egg hunts . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . That 's uh - - Callan , B . : Tell me what an Easter egg hunt is . Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No he didn 't . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Callan , B . : And so it was just kind of turning a couple valves ? Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Callan , B . : So if there was a cell leak or something like that , I guess all the cells - they had a housing around them . That 's why it was so hot inside the cells itself was because of the housing ? Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Callan , B . : How come they didn 't use housings on K - 29 ? Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had to go in there and pull the seals out of the compressors and close everything off . You know , make it where any of that gas was left in there couldn 't escape . Callan , B . : So you said pull the seals off the compressors . Was that every single compressor there ? Marrow , G . : I don 't - - right now I couldn 't say . I think it 's 12 compressors to a cell . Callan , B . : So we 're talking a lot of compressors there . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . And they had metal detectors . And they had machines . Stick your hands in and check you for radiation . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Callan , B . : So did they do pretty regular testing overall on people who worked at the facility ? Radiological testing and whatnot ? Marrow , G . : Oh , I 'm not familiar with that . I don 't - - Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Callan , B . : How long were the change houses out there ? Kind of in the earlier - - Marrow , G . : Yeah . How long did they have them ? Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Callan , B . : Did you yourself ever have to go to the dispensary to have them - - ? Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : Well , they 'd uh - - You had people like that . That try to , you know , do the job faster than what it 's supposed to be done and stuff like that . Callan , B . : What would say was your most challenging assignment that you had to do out there , either as an individual or as a group of people ? What was the most difficult thing you had to do while working in the K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Callan , B . : What would say was your most significant accomplishment as a group out there - - or as an individual ? Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Callan , B . : Gamble Valley . I 've heard that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Marrow , G . : Well , I 'd probably write about the plant at Oak Ridge . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up .

Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up . Description Rating Title Marrow , Guinn Description Oral History of Guinn Marrow , Interviewed by Bart Callan , May 17 , 2005 Audio Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / audio / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . mp3 Video Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / videojs / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . htm Transcript Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / Transcripts _ and _ photos / K - 25 / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . doc Collection Name K - 25 Related Collections COROH Interviewee Marrow , Guinn Interviewer Callan , Bart Type video Language English Subject Atomic Bomb ; Blacks ; Cattle cars ; Dormitories ; Housing ; K - 25 ; Manhattan Project , 1942 - 1945 ; Oak Ridge ( Tenn . ) ; X - 10 ; Y - 12 ; People Brantley , Jerry ; Brelant , Bud ; Hackworth , Jim ; Sawicki , Joe ; Truman , Harry ; Willis , Dick ; Winkle , Robert ( Bob ) ; Places Camp Blandon ( Fl . ) ; Clinch River ; Gamble Valley ; Jackson Square ; K - 29 ; Madisonville ( Ky . ) ; Monroe County ( Tenn . ) ; New York City ( N . Y . ) ; Paducah ( Ky . ) ; Polk County ( Tenn . ) ; Scarboro ( Tenn . ) ; Tellico Plains ( Tenn . ) ; Organizations / Programs J . A . Jones and Company ; MAN Program ; Tennessee Valley Authority ( TVA ) ; U . S . Army ; Union Carbide ; Things / Other Flattops ; Date of Original 2005 Format flv , doc , mp3 Length 1 hour , 17 minutes File Size 1 . 20 GB Source K - 25 Location of Original Oak Ridge Public Library Rights Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge , Oak Ridge , TN 37830 Disclaimer : " This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government . Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof , nor any of their employees , makes any warranty , express or implied , or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy , completeness , or usefulness of any information , apparatus , product , or process disclosed , or represents that process , or service by trade name , trademark , manufacturer , or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement , recommendation , or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof . The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of theDate : 5 / 17 / 05 Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Marrow , G . : Guinn Marrow . G - U - I - N - N M - A - R - R - O - W . Callan , B . : Okay . And how old are you , if you don 't mind me asking ? Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Okay . I worked for J . A . Jones on the railroad for - - ' til I was 18 years old and they hired me at Union Carbide . Callan , B . : Okay . And what kind of railroad construction were you doing ? Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , I was one of 11 kids in our family . My daddy raised us on a farm - - a rented farm , not ours - - and so all of us went to work as prior as we could to try to help the family out . Callan , B . : And so how did you first hear about work happening up here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . So we caught the truck the next morning and come up here , and they hired us right off . Callan , B . : And what did you first think about the place up here when you first arrived up here with all the activity going on ? Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . I started there and worked until March , the end of March of ' 90 . Callan , B . : Okay . So you were how old when you started working out here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Callan , B . : So did you pretty much see the facility come up from nothing from where they started laying the slab and put the whole thing together ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Callan , B . : Was it an impressive site to see , that building ? Callan , B . : Well , tell me about it . How big was it ? Marrow , G . : Well , the K - 25 building 's a quarter of a mile wide and a mile long . It 's in a U - shape . Callan , B . : And how many people were out there working on it ? Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Then later on they merged all these classifications into maintenance mechanics . That covers a lot of the different classifications , maintenance mechanic did . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . [ 1 : 23 : 41 ] Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Callan , B . : How many people would you say were working up on the operations floor at any given time ? Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - [ End of Tape 1 , Begin Tape 2 ] Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Can you give me that whole story again about how you started ? You were here , and - - Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . And so I come back and I worked there until end of March of 1990 . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Callan , B . : He told me some outrageous stories when we were at dinner about sneaking in whiskey and some of his adventures with that . I guess initially the secret city - - I guess there was prohibition , too , really . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . And a few people was working around there for TVA , but a lot of them quit that and started to work up here . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Callan , B . : Were you treated pretty well by your managers or the folks at Union Carbide ? Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Callan , B . : And on that day , what was it like the day that you found out or that you heard the bomb was dropped ? Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . When a young 18 - year - old kid was trained to do something , you know , they want to do it . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Marrow , G . : I don 't know . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Callan , B . : It sounds similar to something that - - Are you familiar with Jim Hackworth ? Marrow , G . : He 's the one that got me in on this . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Callan , B . : He said sometimes they had to have Easter egg hunts . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . That 's uh - - Callan , B . : Tell me what an Easter egg hunt is . Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No he didn 't . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Callan , B . : And so it was just kind of turning a couple valves ? Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Callan , B . : So if there was a cell leak or something like that , I guess all the cells - they had a housing around them . That 's why it was so hot inside the cells itself was because of the housing ? Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Callan , B . : How come they didn 't use housings on K - 29 ? Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had to go in there and pull the seals out of the compressors and close everything off . You know , make it where any of that gas was left in there couldn 't escape . Callan , B . : So you said pull the seals off the compressors . Was that every single compressor there ? Marrow , G . : I don 't - - right now I couldn 't say . I think it 's 12 compressors to a cell . Callan , B . : So we 're talking a lot of compressors there . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . And they had metal detectors . And they had machines . Stick your hands in and check you for radiation . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Callan , B . : So did they do pretty regular testing overall on people who worked at the facility ? Radiological testing and whatnot ? Marrow , G . : Oh , I 'm not familiar with that . I don 't - - Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Callan , B . : How long were the change houses out there ? Kind of in the earlier - - Marrow , G . : Yeah . How long did they have them ? Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Callan , B . : Did you yourself ever have to go to the dispensary to have them - - ? Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : Well , they 'd uh - - You had people like that . That try to , you know , do the job faster than what it 's supposed to be done and stuff like that . Callan , B . : What would say was your most challenging assignment that you had to do out there , either as an individual or as a group of people ? What was the most difficult thing you had to do while working in the K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Callan , B . : What would say was your most significant accomplishment as a group out there - - or as an individual ? Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Callan , B . : Gamble Valley . I 've heard that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Marrow , G . : Well , I 'd probably write about the plant at Oak Ridge . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up .

Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up . Description Rating Title Marrow , Guinn Description Oral History of Guinn Marrow , Interviewed by Bart Callan , May 17 , 2005 Audio Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / audio / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . mp3 Video Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / videojs / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . htm Transcript Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / Transcripts _ and _ photos / K - 25 / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . doc Collection Name K - 25 Related Collections COROH Interviewee Marrow , Guinn Interviewer Callan , Bart Type video Language English Subject Atomic Bomb ; Blacks ; Cattle cars ; Dormitories ; Housing ; K - 25 ; Manhattan Project , 1942 - 1945 ; Oak Ridge ( Tenn . ) ; X - 10 ; Y - 12 ; People Brantley , Jerry ; Brelant , Bud ; Hackworth , Jim ; Sawicki , Joe ; Truman , Harry ; Willis , Dick ; Winkle , Robert ( Bob ) ; Places Camp Blandon ( Fl . ) ; Clinch River ; Gamble Valley ; Jackson Square ; K - 29 ; Madisonville ( Ky . ) ; Monroe County ( Tenn . ) ; New York City ( N . Y . ) ; Paducah ( Ky . ) ; Polk County ( Tenn . ) ; Scarboro ( Tenn . ) ; Tellico Plains ( Tenn . ) ; Organizations / Programs J . A . Jones and Company ; MAN Program ; Tennessee Valley Authority ( TVA ) ; U . S . Army ; Union Carbide ; Things / Other Flattops ; Date of Original 2005 Format flv , doc , mp3 Length 1 hour , 17 minutes File Size 1 . 20 GB Source K - 25 Location of Original Oak Ridge Public Library Rights Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge , Oak Ridge , TN 37830 Disclaimer : " This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government . Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof , nor any of their employees , makes any warranty , express or implied , or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy , completeness , or usefulness of any information , apparatus , product , or process disclosed , or represents that process , or service by trade name , trademark , manufacturer , or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement , recommendation , or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof . The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of theDate : 5 / 17 / 05 Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Marrow , G . : Guinn Marrow . G - U - I - N - N M - A - R - R - O - W . Callan , B . : Okay . And how old are you , if you don 't mind me asking ? Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Okay . I worked for J . A . Jones on the railroad for - - ' til I was 18 years old and they hired me at Union Carbide . Callan , B . : Okay . And what kind of railroad construction were you doing ? Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , I was one of 11 kids in our family . My daddy raised us on a farm - - a rented farm , not ours - - and so all of us went to work as prior as we could to try to help the family out . Callan , B . : And so how did you first hear about work happening up here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . So we caught the truck the next morning and come up here , and they hired us right off . Callan , B . : And what did you first think about the place up here when you first arrived up here with all the activity going on ? Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . I started there and worked until March , the end of March of ' 90 . Callan , B . : Okay . So you were how old when you started working out here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Callan , B . : So did you pretty much see the facility come up from nothing from where they started laying the slab and put the whole thing together ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Callan , B . : Was it an impressive site to see , that building ? Callan , B . : Well , tell me about it . How big was it ? Marrow , G . : Well , the K - 25 building 's a quarter of a mile wide and a mile long . It 's in a U - shape . Callan , B . : And how many people were out there working on it ? Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Then later on they merged all these classifications into maintenance mechanics . That covers a lot of the different classifications , maintenance mechanic did . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . [ 1 : 23 : 41 ] Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Callan , B . : How many people would you say were working up on the operations floor at any given time ? Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - [ End of Tape 1 , Begin Tape 2 ] Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Can you give me that whole story again about how you started ? You were here , and - - Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . And so I come back and I worked there until end of March of 1990 . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Callan , B . : He told me some outrageous stories when we were at dinner about sneaking in whiskey and some of his adventures with that . I guess initially the secret city - - I guess there was prohibition , too , really . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . And a few people was working around there for TVA , but a lot of them quit that and started to work up here . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Callan , B . : Were you treated pretty well by your managers or the folks at Union Carbide ? Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Callan , B . : And on that day , what was it like the day that you found out or that you heard the bomb was dropped ? Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . When a young 18 - year - old kid was trained to do something , you know , they want to do it . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Marrow , G . : I don 't know . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Callan , B . : It sounds similar to something that - - Are you familiar with Jim Hackworth ? Marrow , G . : He 's the one that got me in on this . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Callan , B . : He said sometimes they had to have Easter egg hunts . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . That 's uh - - Callan , B . : Tell me what an Easter egg hunt is . Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No he didn 't . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Callan , B . : And so it was just kind of turning a couple valves ? Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Callan , B . : So if there was a cell leak or something like that , I guess all the cells - they had a housing around them . That 's why it was so hot inside the cells itself was because of the housing ? Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Callan , B . : How come they didn 't use housings on K - 29 ? Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had to go in there and pull the seals out of the compressors and close everything off . You know , make it where any of that gas was left in there couldn 't escape . Callan , B . : So you said pull the seals off the compressors . Was that every single compressor there ? Marrow , G . : I don 't - - right now I couldn 't say . I think it 's 12 compressors to a cell . Callan , B . : So we 're talking a lot of compressors there . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . And they had metal detectors . And they had machines . Stick your hands in and check you for radiation . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Callan , B . : So did they do pretty regular testing overall on people who worked at the facility ? Radiological testing and whatnot ? Marrow , G . : Oh , I 'm not familiar with that . I don 't - - Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Callan , B . : How long were the change houses out there ? Kind of in the earlier - - Marrow , G . : Yeah . How long did they have them ? Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Callan , B . : Did you yourself ever have to go to the dispensary to have them - - ? Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : Well , they 'd uh - - You had people like that . That try to , you know , do the job faster than what it 's supposed to be done and stuff like that . Callan , B . : What would say was your most challenging assignment that you had to do out there , either as an individual or as a group of people ? What was the most difficult thing you had to do while working in the K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Callan , B . : What would say was your most significant accomplishment as a group out there - - or as an individual ? Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Callan , B . : Gamble Valley . I 've heard that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Marrow , G . : Well , I 'd probably write about the plant at Oak Ridge . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up .

Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up . Description Rating Title Marrow , Guinn Description Oral History of Guinn Marrow , Interviewed by Bart Callan , May 17 , 2005 Audio Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / audio / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . mp3 Video Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / videojs / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . htm Transcript Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / Transcripts _ and _ photos / K - 25 / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . doc Collection Name K - 25 Related Collections COROH Interviewee Marrow , Guinn Interviewer Callan , Bart Type video Language English Subject Atomic Bomb ; Blacks ; Cattle cars ; Dormitories ; Housing ; K - 25 ; Manhattan Project , 1942 - 1945 ; Oak Ridge ( Tenn . ) ; X - 10 ; Y - 12 ; People Brantley , Jerry ; Brelant , Bud ; Hackworth , Jim ; Sawicki , Joe ; Truman , Harry ; Willis , Dick ; Winkle , Robert ( Bob ) ; Places Camp Blandon ( Fl . ) ; Clinch River ; Gamble Valley ; Jackson Square ; K - 29 ; Madisonville ( Ky . ) ; Monroe County ( Tenn . ) ; New York City ( N . Y . ) ; Paducah ( Ky . ) ; Polk County ( Tenn . ) ; Scarboro ( Tenn . ) ; Tellico Plains ( Tenn . ) ; Organizations / Programs J . A . Jones and Company ; MAN Program ; Tennessee Valley Authority ( TVA ) ; U . S . Army ; Union Carbide ; Things / Other Flattops ; Date of Original 2005 Format flv , doc , mp3 Length 1 hour , 17 minutes File Size 1 . 20 GB Source K - 25 Location of Original Oak Ridge Public Library Rights Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge , Oak Ridge , TN 37830 Disclaimer : " This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government . Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof , nor any of their employees , makes any warranty , express or implied , or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy , completeness , or usefulness of any information , apparatus , product , or process disclosed , or represents that process , or service by trade name , trademark , manufacturer , or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement , recommendation , or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof . The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of theDate : 5 / 17 / 05 Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Marrow , G . : Guinn Marrow . G - U - I - N - N M - A - R - R - O - W . Callan , B . : Okay . And how old are you , if you don 't mind me asking ? Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Okay . I worked for J . A . Jones on the railroad for - - ' til I was 18 years old and they hired me at Union Carbide . Callan , B . : Okay . And what kind of railroad construction were you doing ? Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , I was one of 11 kids in our family . My daddy raised us on a farm - - a rented farm , not ours - - and so all of us went to work as prior as we could to try to help the family out . Callan , B . : And so how did you first hear about work happening up here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . So we caught the truck the next morning and come up here , and they hired us right off . Callan , B . : And what did you first think about the place up here when you first arrived up here with all the activity going on ? Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . I started there and worked until March , the end of March of ' 90 . Callan , B . : Okay . So you were how old when you started working out here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Callan , B . : So did you pretty much see the facility come up from nothing from where they started laying the slab and put the whole thing together ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Callan , B . : Was it an impressive site to see , that building ? Callan , B . : Well , tell me about it . How big was it ? Marrow , G . : Well , the K - 25 building 's a quarter of a mile wide and a mile long . It 's in a U - shape . Callan , B . : And how many people were out there working on it ? Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Then later on they merged all these classifications into maintenance mechanics . That covers a lot of the different classifications , maintenance mechanic did . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . [ 1 : 23 : 41 ] Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Callan , B . : How many people would you say were working up on the operations floor at any given time ? Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - [ End of Tape 1 , Begin Tape 2 ] Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Can you give me that whole story again about how you started ? You were here , and - - Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . And so I come back and I worked there until end of March of 1990 . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Callan , B . : He told me some outrageous stories when we were at dinner about sneaking in whiskey and some of his adventures with that . I guess initially the secret city - - I guess there was prohibition , too , really . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . And a few people was working around there for TVA , but a lot of them quit that and started to work up here . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Callan , B . : Were you treated pretty well by your managers or the folks at Union Carbide ? Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Callan , B . : And on that day , what was it like the day that you found out or that you heard the bomb was dropped ? Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . When a young 18 - year - old kid was trained to do something , you know , they want to do it . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Marrow , G . : I don 't know . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Callan , B . : It sounds similar to something that - - Are you familiar with Jim Hackworth ? Marrow , G . : He 's the one that got me in on this . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Callan , B . : He said sometimes they had to have Easter egg hunts . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . That 's uh - - Callan , B . : Tell me what an Easter egg hunt is . Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No he didn 't . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Callan , B . : And so it was just kind of turning a couple valves ? Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Callan , B . : So if there was a cell leak or something like that , I guess all the cells - they had a housing around them . That 's why it was so hot inside the cells itself was because of the housing ? Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Callan , B . : How come they didn 't use housings on K - 29 ? Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had to go in there and pull the seals out of the compressors and close everything off . You know , make it where any of that gas was left in there couldn 't escape . Callan , B . : So you said pull the seals off the compressors . Was that every single compressor there ? Marrow , G . : I don 't - - right now I couldn 't say . I think it 's 12 compressors to a cell . Callan , B . : So we 're talking a lot of compressors there . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . And they had metal detectors . And they had machines . Stick your hands in and check you for radiation . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Callan , B . : So did they do pretty regular testing overall on people who worked at the facility ? Radiological testing and whatnot ? Marrow , G . : Oh , I 'm not familiar with that . I don 't - - Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Callan , B . : How long were the change houses out there ? Kind of in the earlier - - Marrow , G . : Yeah . How long did they have them ? Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Callan , B . : Did you yourself ever have to go to the dispensary to have them - - ? Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : Well , they 'd uh - - You had people like that . That try to , you know , do the job faster than what it 's supposed to be done and stuff like that . Callan , B . : What would say was your most challenging assignment that you had to do out there , either as an individual or as a group of people ? What was the most difficult thing you had to do while working in the K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Callan , B . : What would say was your most significant accomplishment as a group out there - - or as an individual ? Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Callan , B . : Gamble Valley . I 've heard that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Marrow , G . : Well , I 'd probably write about the plant at Oak Ridge . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up .

Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up . Description Rating Title Marrow , Guinn Description Oral History of Guinn Marrow , Interviewed by Bart Callan , May 17 , 2005 Audio Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / audio / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . mp3 Video Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / videojs / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . htm Transcript Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / Transcripts _ and _ photos / K - 25 / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . doc Collection Name K - 25 Related Collections COROH Interviewee Marrow , Guinn Interviewer Callan , Bart Type video Language English Subject Atomic Bomb ; Blacks ; Cattle cars ; Dormitories ; Housing ; K - 25 ; Manhattan Project , 1942 - 1945 ; Oak Ridge ( Tenn . ) ; X - 10 ; Y - 12 ; People Brantley , Jerry ; Brelant , Bud ; Hackworth , Jim ; Sawicki , Joe ; Truman , Harry ; Willis , Dick ; Winkle , Robert ( Bob ) ; Places Camp Blandon ( Fl . ) ; Clinch River ; Gamble Valley ; Jackson Square ; K - 29 ; Madisonville ( Ky . ) ; Monroe County ( Tenn . ) ; New York City ( N . Y . ) ; Paducah ( Ky . ) ; Polk County ( Tenn . ) ; Scarboro ( Tenn . ) ; Tellico Plains ( Tenn . ) ; Organizations / Programs J . A . Jones and Company ; MAN Program ; Tennessee Valley Authority ( TVA ) ; U . S . Army ; Union Carbide ; Things / Other Flattops ; Date of Original 2005 Format flv , doc , mp3 Length 1 hour , 17 minutes File Size 1 . 20 GB Source K - 25 Location of Original Oak Ridge Public Library Rights Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge , Oak Ridge , TN 37830 Disclaimer : " This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government . Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof , nor any of their employees , makes any warranty , express or implied , or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy , completeness , or usefulness of any information , apparatus , product , or process disclosed , or represents that process , or service by trade name , trademark , manufacturer , or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement , recommendation , or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof . The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of theDate : 5 / 17 / 05 Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Marrow , G . : Guinn Marrow . G - U - I - N - N M - A - R - R - O - W . Callan , B . : Okay . And how old are you , if you don 't mind me asking ? Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Okay . I worked for J . A . Jones on the railroad for - - ' til I was 18 years old and they hired me at Union Carbide . Callan , B . : Okay . And what kind of railroad construction were you doing ? Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , I was one of 11 kids in our family . My daddy raised us on a farm - - a rented farm , not ours - - and so all of us went to work as prior as we could to try to help the family out . Callan , B . : And so how did you first hear about work happening up here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . So we caught the truck the next morning and come up here , and they hired us right off . Callan , B . : And what did you first think about the place up here when you first arrived up here with all the activity going on ? Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . I started there and worked until March , the end of March of ' 90 . Callan , B . : Okay . So you were how old when you started working out here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Callan , B . : So did you pretty much see the facility come up from nothing from where they started laying the slab and put the whole thing together ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Callan , B . : Was it an impressive site to see , that building ? Callan , B . : Well , tell me about it . How big was it ? Marrow , G . : Well , the K - 25 building 's a quarter of a mile wide and a mile long . It 's in a U - shape . Callan , B . : And how many people were out there working on it ? Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Then later on they merged all these classifications into maintenance mechanics . That covers a lot of the different classifications , maintenance mechanic did . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . [ 1 : 23 : 41 ] Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Callan , B . : How many people would you say were working up on the operations floor at any given time ? Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - [ End of Tape 1 , Begin Tape 2 ] Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Can you give me that whole story again about how you started ? You were here , and - - Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . And so I come back and I worked there until end of March of 1990 . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Callan , B . : He told me some outrageous stories when we were at dinner about sneaking in whiskey and some of his adventures with that . I guess initially the secret city - - I guess there was prohibition , too , really . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . And a few people was working around there for TVA , but a lot of them quit that and started to work up here . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Callan , B . : Were you treated pretty well by your managers or the folks at Union Carbide ? Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Callan , B . : And on that day , what was it like the day that you found out or that you heard the bomb was dropped ? Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . When a young 18 - year - old kid was trained to do something , you know , they want to do it . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Marrow , G . : I don 't know . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Callan , B . : It sounds similar to something that - - Are you familiar with Jim Hackworth ? Marrow , G . : He 's the one that got me in on this . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Callan , B . : He said sometimes they had to have Easter egg hunts . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . That 's uh - - Callan , B . : Tell me what an Easter egg hunt is . Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No he didn 't . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Callan , B . : And so it was just kind of turning a couple valves ? Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Callan , B . : So if there was a cell leak or something like that , I guess all the cells - they had a housing around them . That 's why it was so hot inside the cells itself was because of the housing ? Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Callan , B . : How come they didn 't use housings on K - 29 ? Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had to go in there and pull the seals out of the compressors and close everything off . You know , make it where any of that gas was left in there couldn 't escape . Callan , B . : So you said pull the seals off the compressors . Was that every single compressor there ? Marrow , G . : I don 't - - right now I couldn 't say . I think it 's 12 compressors to a cell . Callan , B . : So we 're talking a lot of compressors there . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . And they had metal detectors . And they had machines . Stick your hands in and check you for radiation . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Callan , B . : So did they do pretty regular testing overall on people who worked at the facility ? Radiological testing and whatnot ? Marrow , G . : Oh , I 'm not familiar with that . I don 't - - Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Callan , B . : How long were the change houses out there ? Kind of in the earlier - - Marrow , G . : Yeah . How long did they have them ? Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Callan , B . : Did you yourself ever have to go to the dispensary to have them - - ? Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : Well , they 'd uh - - You had people like that . That try to , you know , do the job faster than what it 's supposed to be done and stuff like that . Callan , B . : What would say was your most challenging assignment that you had to do out there , either as an individual or as a group of people ? What was the most difficult thing you had to do while working in the K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Callan , B . : What would say was your most significant accomplishment as a group out there - - or as an individual ? Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Callan , B . : Gamble Valley . I 've heard that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Marrow , G . : Well , I 'd probably write about the plant at Oak Ridge . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up .

Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up . Description Rating Title Marrow , Guinn Description Oral History of Guinn Marrow , Interviewed by Bart Callan , May 17 , 2005 Audio Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / audio / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . mp3 Video Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / videojs / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . htm Transcript Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / Transcripts _ and _ photos / K - 25 / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . doc Collection Name K - 25 Related Collections COROH Interviewee Marrow , Guinn Interviewer Callan , Bart Type video Language English Subject Atomic Bomb ; Blacks ; Cattle cars ; Dormitories ; Housing ; K - 25 ; Manhattan Project , 1942 - 1945 ; Oak Ridge ( Tenn . ) ; X - 10 ; Y - 12 ; People Brantley , Jerry ; Brelant , Bud ; Hackworth , Jim ; Sawicki , Joe ; Truman , Harry ; Willis , Dick ; Winkle , Robert ( Bob ) ; Places Camp Blandon ( Fl . ) ; Clinch River ; Gamble Valley ; Jackson Square ; K - 29 ; Madisonville ( Ky . ) ; Monroe County ( Tenn . ) ; New York City ( N . Y . ) ; Paducah ( Ky . ) ; Polk County ( Tenn . ) ; Scarboro ( Tenn . ) ; Tellico Plains ( Tenn . ) ; Organizations / Programs J . A . Jones and Company ; MAN Program ; Tennessee Valley Authority ( TVA ) ; U . S . Army ; Union Carbide ; Things / Other Flattops ; Date of Original 2005 Format flv , doc , mp3 Length 1 hour , 17 minutes File Size 1 . 20 GB Source K - 25 Location of Original Oak Ridge Public Library Rights Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge , Oak Ridge , TN 37830 Disclaimer : " This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government . Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof , nor any of their employees , makes any warranty , express or implied , or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy , completeness , or usefulness of any information , apparatus , product , or process disclosed , or represents that process , or service by trade name , trademark , manufacturer , or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement , recommendation , or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof . The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of theDate : 5 / 17 / 05 Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Marrow , G . : Guinn Marrow . G - U - I - N - N M - A - R - R - O - W . Callan , B . : Okay . And how old are you , if you don 't mind me asking ? Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Okay . I worked for J . A . Jones on the railroad for - - ' til I was 18 years old and they hired me at Union Carbide . Callan , B . : Okay . And what kind of railroad construction were you doing ? Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , I was one of 11 kids in our family . My daddy raised us on a farm - - a rented farm , not ours - - and so all of us went to work as prior as we could to try to help the family out . Callan , B . : And so how did you first hear about work happening up here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . So we caught the truck the next morning and come up here , and they hired us right off . Callan , B . : And what did you first think about the place up here when you first arrived up here with all the activity going on ? Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . I started there and worked until March , the end of March of ' 90 . Callan , B . : Okay . So you were how old when you started working out here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Callan , B . : So did you pretty much see the facility come up from nothing from where they started laying the slab and put the whole thing together ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Callan , B . : Was it an impressive site to see , that building ? Callan , B . : Well , tell me about it . How big was it ? Marrow , G . : Well , the K - 25 building 's a quarter of a mile wide and a mile long . It 's in a U - shape . Callan , B . : And how many people were out there working on it ? Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Then later on they merged all these classifications into maintenance mechanics . That covers a lot of the different classifications , maintenance mechanic did . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . [ 1 : 23 : 41 ] Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Callan , B . : How many people would you say were working up on the operations floor at any given time ? Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - [ End of Tape 1 , Begin Tape 2 ] Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Can you give me that whole story again about how you started ? You were here , and - - Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . And so I come back and I worked there until end of March of 1990 . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Callan , B . : He told me some outrageous stories when we were at dinner about sneaking in whiskey and some of his adventures with that . I guess initially the secret city - - I guess there was prohibition , too , really . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . And a few people was working around there for TVA , but a lot of them quit that and started to work up here . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Callan , B . : Were you treated pretty well by your managers or the folks at Union Carbide ? Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Callan , B . : And on that day , what was it like the day that you found out or that you heard the bomb was dropped ? Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . When a young 18 - year - old kid was trained to do something , you know , they want to do it . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Marrow , G . : I don 't know . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Callan , B . : It sounds similar to something that - - Are you familiar with Jim Hackworth ? Marrow , G . : He 's the one that got me in on this . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Callan , B . : He said sometimes they had to have Easter egg hunts . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . That 's uh - - Callan , B . : Tell me what an Easter egg hunt is . Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No he didn 't . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Callan , B . : And so it was just kind of turning a couple valves ? Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Callan , B . : So if there was a cell leak or something like that , I guess all the cells - they had a housing around them . That 's why it was so hot inside the cells itself was because of the housing ? Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Callan , B . : How come they didn 't use housings on K - 29 ? Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had to go in there and pull the seals out of the compressors and close everything off . You know , make it where any of that gas was left in there couldn 't escape . Callan , B . : So you said pull the seals off the compressors . Was that every single compressor there ? Marrow , G . : I don 't - - right now I couldn 't say . I think it 's 12 compressors to a cell . Callan , B . : So we 're talking a lot of compressors there . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . And they had metal detectors . And they had machines . Stick your hands in and check you for radiation . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Callan , B . : So did they do pretty regular testing overall on people who worked at the facility ? Radiological testing and whatnot ? Marrow , G . : Oh , I 'm not familiar with that . I don 't - - Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Callan , B . : How long were the change houses out there ? Kind of in the earlier - - Marrow , G . : Yeah . How long did they have them ? Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Callan , B . : Did you yourself ever have to go to the dispensary to have them - - ? Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : Well , they 'd uh - - You had people like that . That try to , you know , do the job faster than what it 's supposed to be done and stuff like that . Callan , B . : What would say was your most challenging assignment that you had to do out there , either as an individual or as a group of people ? What was the most difficult thing you had to do while working in the K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Callan , B . : What would say was your most significant accomplishment as a group out there - - or as an individual ? Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Callan , B . : Gamble Valley . I 've heard that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Marrow , G . : Well , I 'd probably write about the plant at Oak Ridge . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up .

Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up . Description Rating Title Marrow , Guinn Description Oral History of Guinn Marrow , Interviewed by Bart Callan , May 17 , 2005 Audio Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / audio / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . mp3 Video Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / videojs / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . htm Transcript Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / Transcripts _ and _ photos / K - 25 / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . doc Collection Name K - 25 Related Collections COROH Interviewee Marrow , Guinn Interviewer Callan , Bart Type video Language English Subject Atomic Bomb ; Blacks ; Cattle cars ; Dormitories ; Housing ; K - 25 ; Manhattan Project , 1942 - 1945 ; Oak Ridge ( Tenn . ) ; X - 10 ; Y - 12 ; People Brantley , Jerry ; Brelant , Bud ; Hackworth , Jim ; Sawicki , Joe ; Truman , Harry ; Willis , Dick ; Winkle , Robert ( Bob ) ; Places Camp Blandon ( Fl . ) ; Clinch River ; Gamble Valley ; Jackson Square ; K - 29 ; Madisonville ( Ky . ) ; Monroe County ( Tenn . ) ; New York City ( N . Y . ) ; Paducah ( Ky . ) ; Polk County ( Tenn . ) ; Scarboro ( Tenn . ) ; Tellico Plains ( Tenn . ) ; Organizations / Programs J . A . Jones and Company ; MAN Program ; Tennessee Valley Authority ( TVA ) ; U . S . Army ; Union Carbide ; Things / Other Flattops ; Date of Original 2005 Format flv , doc , mp3 Length 1 hour , 17 minutes File Size 1 . 20 GB Source K - 25 Location of Original Oak Ridge Public Library Rights Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge , Oak Ridge , TN 37830 Disclaimer : " This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government . Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof , nor any of their employees , makes any warranty , express or implied , or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy , completeness , or usefulness of any information , apparatus , product , or process disclosed , or represents that process , or service by trade name , trademark , manufacturer , or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement , recommendation , or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof . The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of theDate : 5 / 17 / 05 Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Marrow , G . : Guinn Marrow . G - U - I - N - N M - A - R - R - O - W . Callan , B . : Okay . And how old are you , if you don 't mind me asking ? Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Okay . I worked for J . A . Jones on the railroad for - - ' til I was 18 years old and they hired me at Union Carbide . Callan , B . : Okay . And what kind of railroad construction were you doing ? Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , I was one of 11 kids in our family . My daddy raised us on a farm - - a rented farm , not ours - - and so all of us went to work as prior as we could to try to help the family out . Callan , B . : And so how did you first hear about work happening up here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . So we caught the truck the next morning and come up here , and they hired us right off . Callan , B . : And what did you first think about the place up here when you first arrived up here with all the activity going on ? Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . I started there and worked until March , the end of March of ' 90 . Callan , B . : Okay . So you were how old when you started working out here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Callan , B . : So did you pretty much see the facility come up from nothing from where they started laying the slab and put the whole thing together ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Callan , B . : Was it an impressive site to see , that building ? Callan , B . : Well , tell me about it . How big was it ? Marrow , G . : Well , the K - 25 building 's a quarter of a mile wide and a mile long . It 's in a U - shape . Callan , B . : And how many people were out there working on it ? Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Then later on they merged all these classifications into maintenance mechanics . That covers a lot of the different classifications , maintenance mechanic did . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . [ 1 : 23 : 41 ] Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Callan , B . : How many people would you say were working up on the operations floor at any given time ? Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - [ End of Tape 1 , Begin Tape 2 ] Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Can you give me that whole story again about how you started ? You were here , and - - Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . And so I come back and I worked there until end of March of 1990 . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Callan , B . : He told me some outrageous stories when we were at dinner about sneaking in whiskey and some of his adventures with that . I guess initially the secret city - - I guess there was prohibition , too , really . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . And a few people was working around there for TVA , but a lot of them quit that and started to work up here . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Callan , B . : Were you treated pretty well by your managers or the folks at Union Carbide ? Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Callan , B . : And on that day , what was it like the day that you found out or that you heard the bomb was dropped ? Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . When a young 18 - year - old kid was trained to do something , you know , they want to do it . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Marrow , G . : I don 't know . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Callan , B . : It sounds similar to something that - - Are you familiar with Jim Hackworth ? Marrow , G . : He 's the one that got me in on this . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Callan , B . : He said sometimes they had to have Easter egg hunts . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . That 's uh - - Callan , B . : Tell me what an Easter egg hunt is . Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No he didn 't . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Callan , B . : And so it was just kind of turning a couple valves ? Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Callan , B . : So if there was a cell leak or something like that , I guess all the cells - they had a housing around them . That 's why it was so hot inside the cells itself was because of the housing ? Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Callan , B . : How come they didn 't use housings on K - 29 ? Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had to go in there and pull the seals out of the compressors and close everything off . You know , make it where any of that gas was left in there couldn 't escape . Callan , B . : So you said pull the seals off the compressors . Was that every single compressor there ? Marrow , G . : I don 't - - right now I couldn 't say . I think it 's 12 compressors to a cell . Callan , B . : So we 're talking a lot of compressors there . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . And they had metal detectors . And they had machines . Stick your hands in and check you for radiation . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Callan , B . : So did they do pretty regular testing overall on people who worked at the facility ? Radiological testing and whatnot ? Marrow , G . : Oh , I 'm not familiar with that . I don 't - - Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Callan , B . : How long were the change houses out there ? Kind of in the earlier - - Marrow , G . : Yeah . How long did they have them ? Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Callan , B . : Did you yourself ever have to go to the dispensary to have them - - ? Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : Well , they 'd uh - - You had people like that . That try to , you know , do the job faster than what it 's supposed to be done and stuff like that . Callan , B . : What would say was your most challenging assignment that you had to do out there , either as an individual or as a group of people ? What was the most difficult thing you had to do while working in the K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Callan , B . : What would say was your most significant accomplishment as a group out there - - or as an individual ? Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Callan , B . : Gamble Valley . I 've heard that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Marrow , G . : Well , I 'd probably write about the plant at Oak Ridge . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up .

Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up . Description Rating Title Marrow , Guinn Description Oral History of Guinn Marrow , Interviewed by Bart Callan , May 17 , 2005 Audio Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / audio / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . mp3 Video Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / videojs / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . htm Transcript Link http : / / coroh . oakridgetn . gov / corohfiles / Transcripts _ and _ photos / K - 25 / K - 25 _ Marrow _ Guinn . doc Collection Name K - 25 Related Collections COROH Interviewee Marrow , Guinn Interviewer Callan , Bart Type video Language English Subject Atomic Bomb ; Blacks ; Cattle cars ; Dormitories ; Housing ; K - 25 ; Manhattan Project , 1942 - 1945 ; Oak Ridge ( Tenn . ) ; X - 10 ; Y - 12 ; People Brantley , Jerry ; Brelant , Bud ; Hackworth , Jim ; Sawicki , Joe ; Truman , Harry ; Willis , Dick ; Winkle , Robert ( Bob ) ; Places Camp Blandon ( Fl . ) ; Clinch River ; Gamble Valley ; Jackson Square ; K - 29 ; Madisonville ( Ky . ) ; Monroe County ( Tenn . ) ; New York City ( N . Y . ) ; Paducah ( Ky . ) ; Polk County ( Tenn . ) ; Scarboro ( Tenn . ) ; Tellico Plains ( Tenn . ) ; Organizations / Programs J . A . Jones and Company ; MAN Program ; Tennessee Valley Authority ( TVA ) ; U . S . Army ; Union Carbide ; Things / Other Flattops ; Date of Original 2005 Format flv , doc , mp3 Length 1 hour , 17 minutes File Size 1 . 20 GB Source K - 25 Location of Original Oak Ridge Public Library Rights Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge , Oak Ridge , TN 37830 Disclaimer : " This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government . Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof , nor any of their employees , makes any warranty , express or implied , or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy , completeness , or usefulness of any information , apparatus , product , or process disclosed , or represents that process , or service by trade name , trademark , manufacturer , or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement , recommendation , or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof . The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of theDate : 5 / 17 / 05 Callan , B . : - - through 1963 . I want to say three . 1963 or 1964 . ' 64 was when they put the facility on standby . And I don 't know - - You know , how many - - If you worked there the entire time or not . But basically I 'll have questions that will be specific to like the Manhattan Project or the construction period . And just whatever stuff that you 're comfortable talking about , please feel free to do so . The way the interview goes , it will be just like you and I are having a conversation back and forth . Don 't worry about the other equipment around here . And you don 't want to speak directly to the camera . Speak like you 're talking to me . If you need to pause and then think about a question before you answer it or whatever , don 't just - - You know , go at your own pace . I don 't want you to feel like you 're rushed or everything has to come out right the first time . If you need to pause and restart again , that 's fine as well . We just want you to be comfortable . Marrow , G . : Oh , one thing I want to get it straight . I worked , like I said , started February 6th . And I worked two or three months . Got drafted in the Army and went to Germany . And I was gone two years . Come back in I think maybe in July of ' 47 - - and they hired me back . Marrow , G . : Guinn Marrow . G - U - I - N - N M - A - R - R - O - W . Callan , B . : Okay . And how old are you , if you don 't mind me asking ? Callan , B . : Okay . And let me ask you a few questions about your background . Tell me where you were born , and you can expand on that if you 'd like , too . Marrow , G . : I was born in Polk County , Tennessee . Then moved to Monroe County when I was seven or eight years old . Lived in Monroe County ' til , well , lived there ' til I got married in ' 53 and moved to Oak Ridge . Marrow , G . : Okay . I worked for J . A . Jones on the railroad for - - ' til I was 18 years old and they hired me at Union Carbide . Callan , B . : Okay . And what kind of railroad construction were you doing ? Marrow , G . : Ah , just building railroad . Laying cross ties . And that work at that time , you done it all by hand . And even laying the rails . And they buddied me up with a black feller . They brought in some black people from Alabama . And I was buddied with him most of the time . Driving spikes with a hammer . And that 's about it on that . Callan , B . : So why did you come to work at K - 25 ? What attracted you to come up here ? And how did you hear about it ? Marrow , G . : Well , I was one of 11 kids in our family . My daddy raised us on a farm - - a rented farm , not ours - - and so all of us went to work as prior as we could to try to help the family out . Callan , B . : And so how did you first hear about work happening up here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was running a truck to Tellico Planes and picking up people to come to work . Hiring them in . They 'd hire anybody if it was one - legged , one - armed , whatever . And a buddy of mine told me one day he said , " Why don 't we go up there and see if we can get a job . " We were 14 , 15 years old . So we caught the truck the next morning and come up here , and they hired us right off . Callan , B . : And what did you first think about the place up here when you first arrived up here with all the activity going on ? Marrow , G . : It 's hard to understand . Everywhere you go you had to wade mud up to your ankles or knees sometimes - - nobody knew what was going on - - nobody cared what was going on . Get a little money is what all they needed . Marrow , G . : No . The ones I was with , a feller by the name of Smith was the boss . And he had originally - - he lived in Tellico Plains , and that 's the reason why he would send a truck up there . Government furnished a truck to go up there and pick up people that needed a job - - and of course everybody needed a job at that time almost . And we worked in his crew . All of us stayed together pretty much so . Some of them was one - legged and one - armed and had different disabilities . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . They brought people in here . A lot of people from down south . Brought them in and gave them jobs . For all the labor jobs and things like that and if you had a skill like crane operation or anything like that , they really needed them - - heavy equipment operators . Callan , B . : Give me your background working here again . So what years did you work at the K - 25 site ? I guess you said in 1945 was when you started up here ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . I started there and worked until March , the end of March of ' 90 . Callan , B . : Okay . So you were how old when you started working out here ? Marrow , G . : Uh , well , like I said a few minutes ago , we rode in the back of a truck . Worked nine hours out here , and we 'd leave home at four o ' clock in the morning and get out here and go to work at - - I don 't know whether it was seven or eight o ' clock , but anyway , we 'd work nine hours . Then we would have to ride that truck back , winter and summer . Marrow , G . : Yeah . No . It was just a flat - bedded truck with a canvas over the top . And we were in the back . It had bench seats . Now they put on buses later on though . I 'd say about half way through that they put buses on . In fact , they had four buses running from Madisonville and Tellico Plains out here hauling people in . They only charged about a dollar and a half a week to ride the bus . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : What about people that didn 't work or weren 't involved in the construction or what was going on at the facility . What did they think about all the activity that was going on in Oak Ridge ? Did you ever hear anything ? Marrow , G . : Well , I don 't - - see , they build hutments for people that had families to live in . And they had the - - some grocery stores , some dry good stores and things like that . Ice factory where they get ice . And cafeterias . They had a bunch of cafeterias to go to and eat for less than a dollar . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . Well , later on I got a room in the dormitories . They had these dormitories . And that 's when I worked for Union Carbide . And they run buses from Oak Ridge to down the plant to haul people there . That was the good thing about it . It was close to work . Marrow , G . : Well , you had a double room or a single room . You had your choice a lot of times . And I always picked the same room because I 'm more of a private person . Marrow , G . : Well , up and down the turnpike there was tents spread out everywhere . And people lived in tents , and they started building these little flat top buildings . And after we got married in ' 53 , we got a one - bedroom flat top and lived in that ' til we had a kid . Then we turned in and got a two - bedroom flat top after a couple of years . Callan , B . : Didn 't you say after you got married in ' 53 ? I was just curious . Did you meet your wife out here when you were working ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . She was working in Jackson Square in the cafeteria . But she originally - - We was going together already - - she 's from Madisonville . Callan , B . : So did you pretty much see the facility come up from nothing from where they started laying the slab and put the whole thing together ? Marrow , G . : Well , they was all ready when we went to work . They 'd already been working and grading and buying the land and everything . Had all that a going when I come in . And a lot of the - - like the old K - 25 building , they was already got some sides up on it and a roof . Marrow , G . : We didn 't ask no questions - - we just tried to do whatever boss wanted us to do . And we didn 't ask why or nothing . We just went to work . And whatever . Callan , B . : Was it an impressive site to see , that building ? Callan , B . : Well , tell me about it . How big was it ? Marrow , G . : Well , the K - 25 building 's a quarter of a mile wide and a mile long . It 's in a U - shape . Callan , B . : And how many people were out there working on it ? Marrow , G . : Oh , no . [ laughs ] It 's just like New York City . If you walk and didn 't watch where you were going , you were going to bump into people . There was that many . I couldn 't even imagine how many worked out there . Marrow , G . : Around the clock , yeah . That 's when - - Well , when I first hired in at Union Carbide I hired in as a welder helper . And went there and sat in the welding shop two or three days , and the guy come along one day and asked me what my classification was . And I told him welder helper , but I never had a job to do . And he said , " Well , do you want a dime raise ? " I would have - - making 75 cents an hour at that time for welder helper . I said , " Yeah . " [ laughs ] He said , " Well . " He said , " You going to be changed to maintenance mechanic . " Or a milright - - a milright at that time . I said , " That 's all right with me . " He handed me a speed handled wrench , and he said , " All these manhole covers here , I want you to - - When somebody wants to go in and inspect these inside them holes , you take the lid off - - then they get through , put it back on . " So that was my job for a while . And that 's how I become a milright . Then later on they merged all these classifications into maintenance mechanics . That covers a lot of the different classifications , maintenance mechanic did . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . It 's them enclosures where the converters was and the stuff like that . They was all enclosed and you had an inspection manhole cover . Where if they had a leak or something or other , they 'd go in and patch it . Marrow , G . : Well , you got the basement . Then you got what they call the cell floor where all the compressors was . Then you had the attic between there . All the pipe was in between there . Then the top floor where all operation went on . Where they checked the - - Callan , B . : Okay . And the reason I 'm asking this is because this is some of the things I really haven 't gotten a real good description of in some of the previous interviews . As far as the basement or the vaults go . Can you give me a description of what the basement and what the vaults are and what they were used for ? Marrow , G . : Uh , water filled in - - cooling water filtered in . They had the big tanks there . They had filters in them , and the cooling water went through there and filtered out just like a refrigerator filter . But all I 'd say is these tanks is probably three foot in diameter and maybe ten or twelve feet long . And they had I guess maybe three or four - inch pipes going to them . Water - - And they had other machinery in there . I didn 't know what the other machinery done . Pump water I guess or something . And they had them big cooling towers outside to , you know , cool the water when - - after it went through the system . Callan , B . : Okay . And what about the cell floor . Can you describe the next level up from the basement , or the vault ? That 's the cell floor . What does that look like ? Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had a floor then you had a ramp up so high , and all your machinery was on that ramp - - those pumps that pumped the gases through the converters . And uh , that was about it on it . They wasn 't nothing else on there just those compressors . Callan , B . : Is this also where the bicycle lane was ? That 's on the cell floor , right ? And people would ride bicycle up and down from one end ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . You could ride bicycles in there all the time . They - - The operators rode bicycles all the time . We wasn 't allowed to cause - - And they did - - The operators needed room more , so let 's get around and do their work . Marrow , G . : Well , it was just - - They had big trays there and it was covered with metal and all your pipe was going through it . And all that was - - They had steam pipe going through there to heat all that . And it was just - - The pipe gallery was just full . And they had insulation , you know , cover that metal up . Hold the heat in . [ 1 : 23 : 41 ] Marrow , G . : It was hot . And pipe gallery and in the cell floor , all that you know . You had all that machinery running , that 's what 's wrong with my ears today . Back then the only thing we had for protection was probably cotton and stuff like that . Just put in the ears - - for years . Then they got the right stuff after many years . Marrow , G . : Well , they had - - all the way down what they - - above the cells , they had boards with all their instruments . You know , showing , flashing like that . And they had one or two operators sat at each board at all times watching the instruments . And that 's the layout of the building . So you had a cell converters and pumps over here . You got another one and then you 'd have a switchboard on each one of them all the way . Marrow , G . : I seen they had stools set on there . There 'd be two or three there at all the time watching it for years . Then they started cutting back . Maybe they did one at each place had a lot of women doing it - - working that . Callan , B . : How many people would you say were working up on the operations floor at any given time ? Marrow , G . : Could be . Either one of them . I know it was full . There was people riding bicycles up there . Just like New York City or something . Just everything was moving . Callan , B . : Okay . We 're going to flip out tapes real quick . The tapes that we have , they only run thirty minutes , and so there 's a - - [ End of Tape 1 , Begin Tape 2 ] Callan , B . : Okay . And we are back on . Gary wanted me to ask you a little bit more about your work background , because you were talking to me about it before we actually started the interview . And I wanted to know if we could go over that again . You said that you initially started working here for two years , and then you left and went into the service and came back . Can you give me that whole story again about how you started ? You were here , and - - Marrow , G . : And there was so many in line , you know , I missed out on four days seniority . [ laughs ] My hiring date is 6th , which I originally started the 2nd though . And I worked there until probably around May or early into April - - one , and got drafted in the Army . And went and stayed in the Army for almost two years . Then when I came back and they hired me back , but they had a ruling if you went in the Army , you had your job back . And so I come back and I worked there until end of March of 1990 . Marrow , G . : I was in for Truman . I got - - they sent me to Germany . We trained to go to Japan and fight the Japanese , but about half way through our training , they changed it to occupational . And the war in Germany was already - - they had quit shooting over there , and so I was assigned to Nuremberg , Germany in the war at the criminal trials where they hung 11 Germans , Herman Goering and those . And I was a chauffer for one of the prosecutors . I lived in the house with him and all - - and drove them back and forth to the courthouse there in Nuremberg . Go with them on vacations and stuff like that . Callan , B . : He 's a taller gentleman , right ? That 's Robert Winkle . Because the last time we were down here last month we went and had dinner with him . Marrow , G . : He tried to be a rough feller , but all the way around he was honest . He was just trying to get the work done . He had a job to do , and he done it . Callan , B . : He told me some outrageous stories when we were at dinner about sneaking in whiskey and some of his adventures with that . I guess initially the secret city - - I guess there was prohibition , too , really . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Ah , he was just the type of guy - - whatever Bob Winkle had him to do , he 'd do it . [ laughs ] He was nice to the people . Of course , they had to be back then because if they didn 't like their job , got a rough going , they 'd switch you off somewhere else . They could do it easy . Marrow , G . : I was sure proud when they let us move into these hutments instead of having to make that trip back and forth to Tellico Plains . That was something . And this get to work - - get a little take it home money . That was the main thing . Cause when this thing started , TVA you know was running . Of course I was too young to get on to TVA . And a few people was working around there for TVA , but a lot of them quit that and started to work up here . Callan , B . : If someone were to come up to you and ask you what was the work that was done up here . Say someone just has no idea about Oak Ridge or Tennessee or the Manhattan Project . How would you describe to them what the work was that was done up here ? Marrow , G . : I couldn 't describe it much . It 's more than what I 've already described it , because we didn 't care what was going on . We just worked to try to make a little money . We 'd do anything they asked us to do . Callan , B . : Were you treated pretty well by your managers or the folks at Union Carbide ? Marrow , G . : Well , no not really . I 've always been a type of guy . If I was asked to do something , I 'd do it and say nothing about it . And uh , but I 've heard other people gripe about things that I wouldn 't say a word about . Marrow , G . : Well , no . It was - - We didn 't know anything about that . The first time that I was already in the Army going through training when they dropped the bomb . Camp Blandon Florida , our captain come through and told us . Callan , B . : And on that day , what was it like the day that you found out or that you heard the bomb was dropped ? Marrow , G . : Oh , it was a - - Everybody was shouting and hollering going on . We was really wanting to go to Japan . Our whole outfit . Cause we was done trained . Wanted to go to Japan to fight the Japanese . Then they - the big disappointed us when they told us we was going to Germany occupational . That was a big disappointment to my whole outfit . When a young 18 - year - old kid was trained to do something , you know , they want to do it . Callan , B . : When you found out - - [ crew talk ] Okay . We 're back . It was August 6th , I believe , 1945 - - when the bomb was dropped . Did you link it to the work that was being done down here ? Did you kind of know that it was related to that ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . They told us it was an Oak Ridge project . Captain made a big speech . I don 't - - Said the people that worked at Oak Ridge helped make the bomb that was dropped . Then we didn 't hear no more about it . That was it . You just had to read it in the paper , the newspaper and whatever to find out more about it . Marrow , G . : I don 't know . Callan , B . : After the Manhattan Project , a lot of people call it the period from about 1948 to 1964 , they call that the expansion program . I don 't know if you 're familiar with that term . Can you kind of explain what kind of work was being done at the facility after the Manhattan Project - - during that period - - or what was the expansion program ? Marrow , G . : The expansion - - Oh , we had to redo a lot of those compressors and converters . They had cut big holes in the pipe , 54 - inch pipe , where you could crawl in there and go inside of them things and change the veins , the radius on the veins . Now that was a mean job . That was something other - - you put on protective clothes , and if you had one place on your arm or something wasn 't protected , you 'd come out and you had a blister - - burn hurts - - a lot of times it would happen on your neck or some - - that 's how hot . Well , that acid stuff in there 's what did it . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had masks , yeah . Just regular masks . And some cases now you had to wear them oxygen masks cause the heat - - if you went inside those cells where it was so hot . There were places in there that 's 135 degrees . You had to go in there and work a lot of times . Like change a valve . Go down in there or something . And the welders are working . We had an air conditioner up there and hold the hose on his back to keep him so he 'd stay in there long enough to weld . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : No . Well , it first started it didn 't have that air conditioner . Then they come up with that and makes the welders stay in there longer or a mechanic or whoever is working down in that , inside of the housing . Callan , B . : It sounds similar to something that - - Are you familiar with Jim Hackworth ? Marrow , G . : He 's the one that got me in on this . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Yeah . I worked with him . When we was first married , he was our next door neighbor . And so I 've known him ever since 1953 anyway . He went to work down there later on as a trainee and then built hisself up . He went into supervision . Jim Hackworth 's a great feller . He 's a fine feller . Now he 's the one that called me and asked me if I 'd do this . [ laughs ] Callan , B . : But he also told me about having to crawl into the pipes from time to time . He called them Easter egg hunts . Are you familiar with that ? Callan , B . : He said sometimes they had to have Easter egg hunts . Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . That 's uh - - Callan , B . : Tell me what an Easter egg hunt is . Marrow , G . : Okay . If a compressor debladed , it would go back in them pipes . And that 's what they called Easter egg . They had to go in there and dig it out to find those pieces of blades , because they didn 't want it to cross over into another compressor and tear up - - Marrow , G . : I remember in K - 29 building , when they first turned that over to us we had to change out all the valves . And Jim was down with a grinder grinding where the valve would fit in better , and he let that grinder get away and like to have cut his leg real bad . He didn 't tell you about that I guess . Callan , B . : No he didn 't . Callan , B . : No , he didn 't tell that story to me . So I guess on the system itself , did you do - - Describe to me what the different types of work were that you did . Did you do welding work ? Or - - Marrow , G . : They spoil - - well , you couldn 't tell , cause they would - - some of them would last for years and years running . And other times maybe you 'd fix one and a few days it 's tore up again . And same way - - Milright work covered changing out seals for those compressors . That didn 't last , that classification didn 't last too long cause they changed it over to maintenance mechanic , and that covered all of it . Callan , B . : My understanding is once the cascade was up and running , pretty much the whole thing was always running all the time . So how was maintenance performed ? I mean , were you able to shut off certain section of the whole thing ? Or how did you do it ? Marrow , G . : You shut a whole cell down - compressors - - and do the work on whichever one you needed to or whatever . Then you got through . They started back up . Callan , B . : And so it was just kind of turning a couple valves ? Marrow , G . : That 's right . There was something all the time - - maybe half a dozen down at a time . If they had a seal leaking , they could put up with a little leak , but if it got great then they would have to shut it down . Too much atmosphere going into the - - Callan , B . : So if there was a cell leak or something like that , I guess all the cells - they had a housing around them . That 's why it was so hot inside the cells itself was because of the housing ? Marrow , G . : They were all a system but the K - 29 building . It was right out in the open . The whole thing 's out in the open . Callan , B . : How come they didn 't use housings on K - 29 ? Marrow , G . : Well , that was the first one they started building on them big compressors . And they didn 't think they needed it . You and your buddy changing a seal , one of you had the - - used to have mine there . He 's back there handing you tools , and you got to be familiar with your buddy or he 's got to be familiar with you what you need next . Hand it to you . You couldn 't talk there was so much racket . Unless you just turn right around and - - cause half your body was up in the back end of that compressor . Laying up in there on asbestos cloth to keep from getting burned . And he 'd have to reach in what you needed next to get that seal out . Marrow , G . : Oh , you just couldn 't hear a man talk at all . They do get up above them compressors , up toward the top of the building , that 's where the heat was - - boy , it was hot up there . I believe when they put a sprinkler system in there - - Construction did that . Some of the guys told me it was 135 degrees they worked up there in . Marrow , G . : Well , there wasn 't no top floor in K - 29 . I was talking about this 29 ( Indiscernible ) . That was just from the compressors up . It was open up to the ceiling . Callan , B . : Okay . Yeah . I have heard that K - 29 was warmer I guess . But I guess K - 25 it wasn 't as hot because of the housings I guess . It helped contained the heat a little better ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . Yeah , anywhere it was closure the heat was - - you still had to go in there and work inside the housing . But outside it was - - you could talk to anybody without a lot of problem . Marrow , G . : It wasn 't too - - the operation floor , they could open the windows up . They had big fans a going , so it was real comfy up there in the K - 25 building . They had asphalt floors to walk on . Marrow , G . : Oh , we had to go in there and pull the seals out of the compressors and close everything off . You know , make it where any of that gas was left in there couldn 't escape . Callan , B . : So you said pull the seals off the compressors . Was that every single compressor there ? Marrow , G . : I don 't - - right now I couldn 't say . I think it 's 12 compressors to a cell . Callan , B . : So we 're talking a lot of compressors there . Marrow , G . : Yeah . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of guys . They brought in guys from different departments to help us out . And independent didn 't take long to - - You could - - One or two men could probably get a half a dozen or maybe even a dozen in one day according to how fast you worked or something or how much trouble you had getting them out . You worked buddy system - - two people worked together . Marrow , G . : Well , I was interested about - - Jim Young - - the guard . He 'd been there all them years . I didn 't know he - - Callan , B . : I 'll have to check to see if we have him on our list . No . I haven 't gotten any interviews with the guards . Since you brought that up , tell me a little bit about the security at the facility and what that was like . Marrow , G . : Well , they had a lot of fences around the whole plant . Different gates - - and they kept guards there for - - and you go through certain areas like over in the - - what they call the six section of the K - 25 building . That was extra security . You 'd have to go in there and change clothes . This is the early days . You change clothes and work in their clothes . When you come out you put your clothes on . There was a different set of coveralls . And they had metal detectors . And they had machines . Stick your hands in and check you for radiation . Callan , B . : Okay . So I 'm able to put a piece together here that I haven 't been able to before . And we were familiar before we started this interview process with something called change rooms . And I 've asked several people about change rooms . And they said , " Well , they were there for a little while but not for long . " So is that what change rooms were for was you 'd have to go into this area and you 'd have to change ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . Go and uh - - Yeah . You 'd have to - - You had their clothes on - - then when you went in there to do a job - - some of it was - - you had to use a paper suit on . And then you come back out . You had to check for radiation , then changed into your other clothes . If you had any radiation , you 'd have to take a bath or something before they 'd let you out . If they couldn 't get the radiation off , they 'd load you up and take you to the dispensary . And they 'd give you a bath . Callan , B . : So did they do pretty regular testing overall on people who worked at the facility ? Radiological testing and whatnot ? Marrow , G . : Oh , I 'm not familiar with that . I don 't - - Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We got regular health checks . We 'd have to leave urine samples every , I believe it was every month or three months - - something like that . You had to leave a urine sample in the change houses , and there 'd be a person come along , you know , and pick them up . The days that the urine sample was suppose to be left . Callan , B . : How long were the change houses out there ? Kind of in the earlier - - Marrow , G . : Yeah . How long did they have them ? Marrow , G . : Well , it went on that way maybe up ' til about the time they shut down K - 25 . But you still , still had to leave them urine samples , even if you worked or changed there in a different - - another building . And it worked in these buildings . Callan , B . : Did you yourself ever have to go to the dispensary to have them - - ? Marrow , G . : I can 't ever remember having to - - I 've never went there for decontamination . No . I never did . But there 'd be a number of people did go - - I know . Marrow , G . : Well , they 'd uh - - You had people like that . That try to , you know , do the job faster than what it 's supposed to be done and stuff like that . Callan , B . : What would say was your most challenging assignment that you had to do out there , either as an individual or as a group of people ? What was the most difficult thing you had to do while working in the K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : It was going into the system . That was the most difficult thing that I ever done . Going in there and changing those veins on the compressors and converters . Uh , they always - - we had a lot of old people working and the first half of the day one of us is supposed to go in and do it and the next half a day the other one - - What it was they assigned us to two compressors - - two people and one man 's supposed to go get one . But I always had an older person ; I 'd get both of them . You know , take care of - - And if you didn 't dress properly , like I - - You 'd get burnt . They had cream to put on your arm , neck and face and that helped keep the heat off . Especially the ones that - - If you drew a buddy that wore glasses , you know , on them gas mask things they 'd fog up . They couldn 't see . So somebody had to do the work . Marrow , G . : Yeah . It was a help your buddy if you could . And seemed like everybody - - I never knowed of anybody refusing to do something that your buddy couldn 't do . Callan , B . : What would say was your most significant accomplishment as a group out there - - or as an individual ? Marrow , G . : Uh , yeah . I 've heard it . Why it was built - - K - 25 and that , but right now I can 't remember which was one of them . A job that I really enjoyed was I was sent down to the old powerhouse building and I was a maintenance for a laboratory gang outfit that worked out of X - 10 and Y - 12 . They was mixed up down there . They run all - - Anderson was the head of it . And they were trying to learn about cancer . They tested dog livers . They used to put dogs to sleep and remove their liver and stuff - - and put them in a centrifuge - - and I learned a lot working for them down there and that . I enjoyed that . It didn 't last too long . [ laughs ] Marrow , G . : Cancer . They was figuring on - - they worked on cancer research and different things . I don 't know what all they was doing . They had a lot of the doctors there , you know - - people running - - well , you didn 't know what they was doing . You didn 't ask questions about that either . It wasn 't no secret the way I understood it . I worked there a couple years I guess - - something like that . Marrow , G . : It was - - A lot of it was designing . They 'd bring a project in and say , " We need this a certain way , done a certain way - - and use your own judgment to build it . " And I always liked to do things like that - - figure out , so - - working on small water lines and glass tubing and things of that nature . Marrow , G . : Jerry Brantley is one of them . He was one of the operators . And of course Dick Willis , he 's dead now . Dick Willis is dead . Jerry Brantley lives over there close to Jim Hackworth . And Dr . Anderson , he was the head of it . I don 't know what ever happened to him . I heard one time he went to South Carolina - - after they closed it down . And Dr . Bud Brelant , or I believe that 's the way - - Burlat or some such a name . He worked down there for a while . But I don 't know . He didn 't work there long . He left . Callan , B . : Getting back over to K - 25 . During its years of operation , were there ever any conflicts that occurred between management and the workers ? Were there unions out here ? Was there very labor strikes ? Marrow , G . : Yeah . We had a strike early - - maybe two or three strikes - - I don 't know . They didn 't last long - - two or three days or something . They settled it out . And management run the plant while we was out on strike . But they 'd always come to an agreement in one way or the other . And it would settle . Callan , B . : What about power outages ? I 've heard that power outages could create a great deal of difficulty for the plant . Did you ever have to deal with a power outage ? And what was that like ? Marrow , G . : Oh , yeah . We had a few power outages , but that was mostly electrical problem . And it didn 't concern our work too much . If they got it back on real quick before - you know - - some of that gases got set up into the cells , you know , the compressor and things . And I don 't remember it ever doing that . Callan , B . : What about the roles of women out there at K - 25 ? And you were out there in the early years . There was a lot of women working out here . What sort of job roles did they serve ? What did they do out here ? Marrow , G . : Well , they done a little bit of everything . They - - I seen them on - - when they was building the plant , they had welders , women welders . Then in the plant for Carbide , they had a lot of them as switchboard operators . Then later on , they started moving out on other jobs . Even come - - they come into maintenance later on - - worked there along side of us . Marrow , G . : No . They wasn 't treated no different . They - - if you buddied a woman , she done exactly what you done - - whatever . Marrow , G . : Yeah . In the early days , they had their own bathrooms , their own drinking fountains , and all like that . They was treated separately . That 's when they first started . I never did see it happen , but they caught a black person drinking out of a white drinking fountain or something like that , you know . I 've heard that they fired them but I don 't know that to be true . Callan , B . : Okay . There was a different living community too for the African American workers I hear initially . I guess the Scarborough community or something like that . Callan , B . : Gamble Valley . I 've heard that . Marrow , G . : Yeah . [ laughs ] And I assume the reason why they named it . You know , a black person likes to gamble , and they - - [ laughs ] and when they - - they all had their own separate facilities that worked on labors down there at K - 25 . Just before you start to cross Clinch River Bridge there - - back in there in them ridge , they had hutments back in there , and they all lived in that area - - had their own cafeteria - - whatever . Callan , B . : We 're getting sort of to the broad perspective . Just sort of wrap - up questions here . What do you think that future generations should remember about K - 25 ? Marrow , G . : Well , the bomb I guess . What saved - - The bomb , in my opinion , saved a lot of American lives . And I don 't know we 're probably creating a new Oak Ridge , secret city they called it . Marrow , G . : Well , I 'd probably write about the plant at Oak Ridge . Callan , B . : Okay . That 's really all of the questions that I have at this point . Are there any other things that you wanted to discuss or that we didn 't cover ? Callan , B . : Okay . Well , it 's been a great interview , and I really do appreciate it . Let me have Justin get the microphone off of you before you stand up .

The interview took place on August 25 , 1998 , in the living room of Madonna 's duplx apartment on Central Park West . The space is large and imposingly formal , with oversize deco armchairs and a plush sofa across the room from a fireplace flanked by shelves that are empty save for a few deco vases and some art books . There are paintings by Tamara de Lempicka on two walls , a small exquisite Dali canvas near the fireplace , and some frames photos of her child , Lourdes , on a sideboard . A book by the Peruvian photographer Martin Chambi sits on the coffee table , where an assistant has placed a tray with a china tea service , but the room feels like a public space , a meeting room for guests rather than an integral part of the apartment 's regular domestic life . Vince : I found a quote from your interview with Bill Zehme , when you said " I 'd rather own an art gallery than a movie studio . Or a museum . I 'd rather be Peggy Guggenheim than Harry Cohn . " . Where did your interest in art and photography start ? Madonna : My interest in art started as a child because several members of my family could paint and draw and I couldn 't , so I was living vicariously through them . And from going to the Detroit Institute of arts , which is how I got into Diego Rivera , which is how I found out about Frida Kahlo and started reading about her . Then , if you go to enough Catholic churches , there 's art everywhere , so you get introduced to it that way , from a religious ecstasy point of view . And then just coming to New York and dancing . As an incredibly poor struggling dancer , you could get into museums for free , so that was my form of entertainment . It was just something I was interested in . And then you get into it , and when I started collecting , I started reading more and more about the artists themselves , and names would keep popping up - you know , Peggy Guggenheim . And of course I started reading about her and she was just - Madonna : Oh , my God ! What a life she led ! Just the idea of being in contact with all those great artists and nurturing them and giving them a place to show their work and being their patroness is , to me , fabulous . Madonna : Totally ! I mean that 's real art . And to be able to be a part of that and to nurture it - it 's a very enviable and honorable position . Vince : And one picture that 's been up on every dorm room or apartment wall I 've ever lived in was this Richard Avedon photo of Lew Alcindor from Harper 's Bazaar . I wondered if there was anything like that in your life early on . Was there an image that you 've carried with you ? Madonna : Right . Well , that ended up in my " Express Yourself " video ; that was totally the inspiration for that . Every video I 've ever done has been inspired by some painting or some work of art . Madonna : Well , those were all pretty obvious . I consider them to be hommages of course . And I didn 't get into trouble , the director did . Fortunately , I owned the Tamara de Lempicky painting that I used for the opening of " Open Your Heart " . That one over there . Only we put lights on her nipples . Madonna : Obvious ? Well , my " Bedtime Story " video was completely inspired by all the female surrealist painters like Leonora Carrington and Remedios Varo . There 's that one shot where my hands are up in the air and stars are spinning around me . And me flying through the hallway with my hair trailing behind me , the birds flying out of my open robe - all of those images were an hommage to female surrealist painters ; there 's a little bit of Frida Kahlo in there , too . What else ? The " Frozen " video was totally inspired by Martha Graham - I have a lot of photographs of her dancing ; the big skirts and all the iron shapes and stuff like that . Madonna : This is a good question for my art dealer . I bought a Leger and I bought a Frida Kahlo self - portrait , but I don 't know which came first . But I remember buying it and I had just gotten married and it looked completely out of place in my house in Malibu ( She laughs in a light , breathy burst ) . But those were my first paintings . Madonna : Well I 've always been kind of obsessed with Frida Kahlo , so I was really into the idea of getting something that belonged to her . And then from Frida Kahlo I found out about Tina Modotti and then I started collecting her stuff and Edward Weston , and one person always leads to another person with me , because for me it started with Diego Rivera , then it went to Frida Kahlo , then it went to Tina , and Edward and … ( She trails off . ) . Also , if you 're into Picasso , and you want to find out about him and that whole area of art and European culture , then you start reading about Man Ray and the surrealists and Andre Breton , and all of a sudden you 're in that whole world and you start having interests in other people . It 's like a disease . Madonna : Lately , I 've gotten more into newer photographers . I 'm really into Guy Bourdin ( Note by madonna - online . ch : Bourdin was the inspiration behind the visuals of Madonna 's 2003 video Hollywood ) right now ; I 've got a couple of his photographs in my bedroom that I wake up to every morning . I just move all over the place , really . Madonna : It 's more that a sensibility appeals to me . I 'm really interested in two things in art . One is suffering , and the other is irony and a certain bizarre sense of humour . And that you can find everywhere . Madonna : That I love ? Well I love Nan Goldin . She 's amazing . Now I 'm into color photography - don 't get me wrong . I still love black and white - and I like a lot of the really young photographers . I interviewed Mario Testino for his show in Naples and Rio , and he has a new book - it 's great ! Fantastic book - I love it . And I did a piece for him for the book and we had a lengthy discussion about young photographers that we really like right now . Like Mario Sorenti - people that are considered fashion photographers . For instance , I love Inez van Lamsweerde . She photographed me for Spin magazine and she is unbelievable . She 's Dutch . Madonna : She 's so interesting . She 's tall ; she 's got really long black hair ; she looks like a Modigliani painting . She and her boyfriend ( Vinoodh Matadin ) work together and he does all the art direction . They make such beautiful photographs , and they do a lot of campaigns for a lot of young designers . Madonna : Not that I know of , because I don 't like that . I knew I was going to get it with … what 's his name ? I 'm sorry I had too much gas and I can 't remember anyone 's name right now . David LaChapelle ! Because you can 't work with him without being computerized . Madonna : Yeah . Anyway , I just love van Lamsweerde 's photographs , but I 'm into Sean Ellis and Mario Sorrenti . Their photographs are very cinematic and they 're like a whole new wave , I think , of photography that transcends fashion and Steven Meisel , Patrick Demarchelier - that whole school of photographers , who I think were really inspired by Avedon and Helmut Newton . Madonna : Herb Ritts did take photographs of my daughter that are quite beautiful , two days after she was born , and those are all framed and in my house in L . A . But more like the classic , black - and - white ; there are some beautiful , beautiful shots of her foot in my hand - incredible . There are some shots that look like photographs Man Ray did of Lee Miller , too . My hair was really blond and I had red lipstick on and they were black and white ; just the way he processed them , they look very Man Ray - ish . But Mario 's really one of my favorite photographers right now , which is why he ended up taking the official portrait of me and her together . And when she had a real personality ; I mean , babies don 't have personality when they 're two days old . I suppose some people think they do , but they 're just amoebas . They can 't even focus on anything . Madonna : Believe me , there 's a lot more . He captures something about her . He has a real , natural kind of journalistic style of photographing that I like , which I think is better for a baby who 's running around and can 't stand to sit still . It 's not about lighting or anything , it 's about capturing her doing something , and he took some fantastic pictures of her . Madonna : Have you ever met him ? He is a scream . He 's so much fun . He 's the kind of guy who will photograph you , and if he doesn 't like the way you 're standing or something , he 'll kick you . And he 's constantly singing and moving around the room and he 's so full of life , and I feel like his photographs are , too . He creates an atmosphere , a relaxed atmosphere , and then he just starts taking pictures . Which is very , very different than someone like Steven Meisel , who is really precise . ( She says this last phrase with a deliberate pause between each word . ) Madonna : Yeah , well , first of all I have to feel like I 'm friends with a photographer and that we enjoy the same things , like the same movies , have the same sick sensibility . And I felt that with Steven , which is why we just kept working together and working together and finally the idea of doing a book together came up . You really have to feel like someone 's part of your family to work on a book like that , where you 're just like hanging out . And not only did we photograph everything , we also filmed everything on a Super - 8 camera - everything that we did . Madonna : Oh , it 's around . It 's in the archives . It 'll be unearthed after I die . It 'll be playing at the Film Forum . Madonna : Well , first of all , he just really , really appreciates beauty , and he knows how to photograph a strong female . He 's a diva himself . And he , like me , is sort of a scavenger who picks stuff out of things , whether it 's old movies , old Warhol films . He 's interested in street fashion . , He picks up stuff from all over the place and puts it in his work and so do I . And he likes a lot of the same things I like . I don 't know - we just clicked . He 's one of those people who will call you and go , You 've gotta see this movie or rent this movie . It 's always movies you have to go and rent or buy somewhere ; it 's nothing that 's out , nothing modern . Madonna : No , and that 's the great thing about Steven . He 'll take you down a road and then he 'll completely throw a curve ball . I wish he 'd do more outside of Vogue magazine . I suppose he can 't . Because that 's certainly working within a serious restriction , and unfortunaely Vogue has turned into a Speigel catalogue . Vince : That 's so great , and it does seem that he can get away with just about anything there . But I am curious about the Sex book and how that came about . A lot of the visual influences there seem to be Man Ray and experimental European work . Madonna : Man Ray and every movie that Visconti ever made starring Helmut Berger and - did you see " The Damned " ? - Ingrid Thulin . I mean I was Ingrid Thulin for several of those photographs . And the book was inspired by all those kind of things ; those old Warhol films , where people did nothing and just sat there and peeled bananas and stuff , to all the Visconti stuff , especially the stuff we shot at the Gaiety when I 'm dressed in an evening gown and I 've got all the men on leashes and I think Udo Kier is even in the photographs . We had to bring Udo Kier back - he 's incredible . Madonna : We were always fooling around and doing stuff anyway - stuff that never made it into any magazines - because we were always working together on so many things . I guess it was my idea and then I pulled him into it . I mean , we had talked about doing a book together , we just weren 't sure where we wanted to go with it and what kind of book , because I love taking on different personas and becoming and transforming and the whole chameleon thing with a twist on Cindy Sherman - something a bit more aggressive than that . I 'm a big fan of hers , by the way . So originally it was going to be this thing of different guises , and then we used to go to the Gaiety all the time and we got onto the subject of sex and gender confusion and role playing and men playing females and women playing men and that 's how the Sex book came about . Steven , like me , likes to f * ck with people , so that was a big part of it , too . Madonna : Everyone , everything , at every level . It was about celebrating the ultimate taboo and just having fun doing what you 're not supposed to do . I mean , a pop star 's not supposed to do those things . I 'm telling you , I had the time of my life while I was doing it . Of course , I got the shit kicked out of me for it , so it 's a good thing I had a good time doing it . And I had fun . I don 't regret it . The whole thing was like performance art while it was happening and it was a real throw - caution - to - the - wind , devil - may - care time of my life . Madonna : I never want to repeat myself . I like the idea of doing something political and provocative , but I don 't know what it would be . That 's one of those things that you can 't plan , you just have to let it happen . Madonna : This is true , and I like that confusion of is it real or is it not real ? Is it life imitating art or is it art imitating life ? Is it something that we planned that we filmed , or is it something that we captured ? Because I 'm telling you , the line starts to get very blurred . Vince : Let 's talk about Cindy Sherman . I know that you sponsored her show of " Film stills " at the Museum of Modern Art . What is it that appeals to you about her work ? Madonna : Just her chameleon - like persona - her transformation . What she 's able to evoke - the subtlety of her work , the detail . I just think her stuff is amazing . Madonna : No , can you believe that ? I 've always admired her work , but the images that were available to be bought I wasn 't that crazy about . But I really respect and admire her . Madonna : It 's the best place to put your money , honestly . I know it 's good to get involved in lots of charities , but I think its really , really important to do things that inspire people in other ways . Because people need to have their consciousness raised in many ways , and sometimes it 's too easy to just give your money to something that you don 't have any connection to . It 's much more gratifying for me to be able to give money to tangible things , like to help keep a theater open , to a school , to supporting an artist in getting a show together . Madonna : My art dealer ( Darlene Lutz ) , she has relationships with a lot of people at the Museum of Modern Art . They come to me a lot and ask if I want to get involved with different shows . The only shows I 've been involved in in terms of financing have been the Tina Modotti show and the Cindy Sherman show - that 's it . You know , we chicks have to stick together . Vince : To go back to photographers that you 've worked with , I wanted to ask about Herb Ritts . It seemed to me that you had an interesting , symbiotic relationship with photographers , both as a muse and as a great subject . And these people helped to create your image in a lasting way . Madonna : An innocence . Herb is one of those people who doesn 't even seem like he 's a photographer . It feels like he discovered it by accident in a way , and he has a real naivete about him . He doesn 't really plan things ; he kind of stumbles across things . He 's got a real aw - gee - shucks vibe on him . He 's a really innocent , geeky - nerdy type of a person , and I became friends with him . I asked him to photograph my wedding , and things went from there . Because I always have to be friends with them first , and they become part of my inner circle , and once I 'm really comfortable with them , that 's then things start to be created . And Herb was very much part of my social circle . And Herb - Steven doesn 't do this much , but Mario does it - they always have a little camera in their pocket . I mean , Herb and Mario must have a billion photographs of me in their archives - just of parties , hanging out at my house , coming to visit me on the sets of movies - that I 'm sure will resurface someday , when I 've been reincarnated as a camera lens . But there 's a certain comfortability factor that came with Herb . And I 'd never really been conscious or aware of photographers before , and , believe me , I 'd been photographed a lot before that , but I wasn 't really present , I didn 't care . And , in fact , all the nude photographs that surfaced of me from my early days of modeling for art classes and photography schools and stuff , I didn 't want to be there that I removed myself from the whole process . I wasn 't relating to the photographer , I wasn 't relating to the camera , and it wasn 't a relationship . I wasn 't there - I was gone . It must be like what a prostitute does when they 're with a john . I was not present . So , to me , the whole Herb Ritts thing was the first time that I realized that symbiosis , that exchange of energy and the creation of magic that happens from that exchange . A good photographer creates an environment for you to shine - for you to express yourself in whatever statement it is you Vince : Why ? Madonna : Yeah , but there was some energy that he had that I didn 't feel comfortable with . And I couldn 't even explain to you what it was . I was very young when I met him and I hadn 't been living in New York that long . Anyway , Herb was the first photographer that I really had a relationship with . Madonna : Pretty much . I worked with other people , but nobody that made a difference . And then I worked with Steven . What was the first thing I didn with him ? I don 't even remember . But I remember once I got more into fashion and started collecting more art and becoming a lot more aware of the intersection of art and fashion , that 's when I got into Steven Meisel . Madonna : I sort of went into Steven 's wavelength , and then that worked for a while . too , and culminated in the Sex book and all of that stuff . And then I didn 't want to have my photograph taken for a really long time , and then I hooked up with Mario Testino . I worked with lots of photographers inbetween , but a sort of artist - muse relationship excisted with those three photographers . Madonna : Like to become the muse of ? Well , I really wanted to have my picture taken by Helmut Newton , and I did . I love his stuff , too . But I didn 't have a relationship with him ; he 's not available , or accessible . I also had my photograph taken by this other photographer who I adored , but the photographs never got used : Paolo Roversi , he does beautiful work . They were going to be pictures for my album cover - not this record but the record before - but the people at the record company were all too freaked out ; they thought the pictures were too blurry , they weren 't going to read well - whatever . Madonna : Well , Man Ray - no question , no question . There are a lot of photographers that I admire , but I 'm not sure that I would have wanted them to photograph me . Irving Penn , but not now - forty years ago . I can 't think of anyone else . Madonna : Yeah , yeah . No question ; he was amazing . But I think that 's it : Weston , Man Ray , and Irving Penn - not a shabby crowd . Madonna : Wow ! That 's a good question . Well , Picasso would have been amazing . I 've got a portrait of Dora Maar that 's un - believable . It wouldn 't have been a pretty picture , but we would have liked it anyway . Madonna : He paints your personality , he doesn 't paint your portrait ; and he paints his personality , too . But I 'm happy to share a canvas with Picasso . I would have loved Bouguereau to paint my portrait , because I would have looked really good . ( She laughs ) He doesn 't paint an ugly picture of anyone . Or Rembrandt , he would have been OK . ( Said with the feigned unconcern , and sly smile , of a princess indulging in high nobless oblige . Then , after a long pause ; ) Oh , I know who : Edward Hopper . Love his paintings . Vince : With your photographs , your videos , and your perfomances you 've had a real impact on our ideas about femininity and , I think , masculinity because of the way you 've pulled that into it . I 'm curious about what influences you 've had on your ideas about femininity and masculinity over the years . What were the defining influences , if there are any ? Madonna : I think a lot of the art that I have has influenced me in that way . I have a photograph in my office that Man Ray did of Lee Miller kissing another woman that I think is really powerful and that has really inspired me . I 've also been inspired by - well , everything inspires me . A lot of the movies have inspired me - a lot of the movies of Visconti and Pasolini . With Pasolini , there 's a lot of religious ecstasy intertwined with sexual ecstasy , and when I think of Visconti 's films , I always feel sexually confused by them . For instance , did you see The Night Porter ? Madonna : You haven 't seen it ? ( She slaps a pillow like a disapproving school mistress . ) Anything with Charlotte Rampling you must see . She is a genius ! Images of women dressed in Nazi Gestapo uniforms - the vulnerability and fragility of a female but the masculinity of a uniform , and the whole sense of playing that out and performing , doing sort of cabaret - the movie Cabaret ! The confusion : what 's male , what 's female ? For me , David Bowie has a huge influence on me because his was his first concert I went to see . I rememer watching him and thinking I didn 't know what sex he was , and it didn 't matter . Because one minute he was wearing body stockings - the whole Ziggy Stardust thing - and the next minute he was the Thin White Duke in white double - breasted suits , and there 's something so androgynous about him . And I think androgyny , whether it 's David Bowie or Helmut Berger , that has really really influenced my work more than anything . Madonna : I don 't know - the most interesting people to me are people who aren 't just one way . And obviously I 'm attracted to it because I am a female but I have been described as being very male - like or very predatory or having a lot of male traits . But that 's because I 'm financially independent , and I have spoken about my sexual fantasies in the sort of frank and blunt way that has been reserved for men . And the more people have criticized me for behaving in an unladylike fashion , the more it 's provoked me to behave in an unladylike fashion and say , I can be fminine and masculine at the same time . Madonna : And , by the way , artists through the centuries have been into role - playing . I mean Frida Kahlo always dressed like a man . And so did Lee Miller for a time . There are lots of people sort of switched back and forth , but that was always reserved for fine art ; in pop culture , you 're expected to behave in a socially acceptable way . Madonna : Absolutely . Because men feel safe about it . Men feel safe with men dressing like women ; they do not feel safe with women dressing like men . You 're not feeling intimidated by a guy who dresses like a female , but you might feel intimidated by a woman who walked around in a pin - striped suit with her tits hanging out , grabbing her crotch - who absolutely doesn 't need you for anything . Except for one thing , but even then , you can leave after that . Madonna : But she never had public favor ; it was a bit like the Hillary Clinton thing . She did all the right things for her country , but she wasn 't ultimately revered . So she had a conversation with her confidant - adviser . She asked him , when have they ever looked up to or idolized a woman ? Only one , he told her , the Virgin Mary . So she said , Then I will become like the Virgin Mary , and she did . She created a facade for herself ; she stopped having lovers ; she became like a virgin . She became sexless , and painted her face in a white alabaster way , and turned herself into an icon that was untouchable and sexless , and then she had everybody 's respect . Madonna : Right , but if you are a powerful female and you don 't play the traditional role that you are supposed to play when you get married and have a family and everyone feels safe with you , then you are going to be intimidating to people . And that idea has always been running through my work . Accepting it , not accepting it ; accepting it , not accepting it . And shoving it in people 's faces . I mean that whole crotch - grabbing thing was just so like , OK every other rock star in the universe has done it , so I 'm going to do it . And you know how freaked - out people got about it . Whatever . But we got off the subject . Madonna : I think probably my earliest influences probably came from the world of dance , especially with Martha Graham , because I studied at her school and I read all about her and saw the movies of her dances and performances . She freaked people out , too , because she brought to life all of these Greek myths and she reenacted them in her dances . And she was always turning things around ; she was always the agressor who trapped the men . And her dances were very sexually provocative , very erotic , and very female - assertive , and I know that that really influenced me . And also ballet is such a female thing , and when I was younger , being surrounded by male ballet dancers - to me , that 's gender confusion . I mean , a bunch of guys walking around in tights putting their toes up in the air , and they 're incredibly effeminite men . Being surrounded by that on a regular basis when I was growing up - I mean , I wanted to be a boy when I was growing up because I was in love with all of the male dancer I know and they were all gay . And I thought , Well , if I was a boy , they 'd love me . So I got into role - playing then . That 's where it began . I remember when I was still in high school , I had cut my hair off really short , and I was totally anorexic - I had no boobs - and I would dress like a boy and go to gay clubs and my goal was to trick men into thinking I was a boy . Madonna : And I 'm sure that 's really influenced me , because from the dance world to the music world , my social strata was mostly gay men . That 's who my audience was , that 's who I hung out with , that 's who inspired me . For me , it freed me , because I could do whatever I wanted and be whatever I wanted . Madonna : Totally . Ready to be f * cked with and certainly not intimidated by a strong female . So the problem arose when I left that world and went into the mainstream . Suddenly , there was judgment . But before that I was in my little gay cocoon . Madonna : Well , absolutely . As soon as you tell me I can 't do something - And that 's how I 've always been , starting from when I was a little girl . The boys could wear pants to church and the girls couldn 't . And I used to say , But why ? Is God going to love me less if I don 't wear a dress ? It just irked me - the rules . So I would put pants on under my dress , just to f * ck with my father . And after church , I would tell him I had pants and I 'd say , See , lightning did not strike me . And I guess I 've been doing that ever since . Madonna : Well , a lot of the artists that I collect and that I admire : Lee Miller , Tina Modotti , Frida Kahlo - that whole group of females that kind of started off as muses and became artists in their own right and absolutely worked in a lot of different worlds and moved in a lot of different worlds and were artstic and political and still had their femininity about them . I can 't think of anybody now . That 's a tough one . I 'm sitting here and combing all the areas ; Is there an actress ? Is there a singer ? Is there an artist now ? Help me ! Madonna : I would say David Bowie , absolutely . I was terribly inspired by him and I still think he 's an amazing human being . He keeps pushing the envelope in his way . I can think of a lot of male artists that I admire , but everytime I start to think about them , and how they behaved , they were all real shits . F * ck - faces . And the thing is , all those women that I names - I know a lot about them . I 've gotten into their work and then read their biographies and really followed them and really studied them , and they 're women that I really look up to . Whereas the men , I haven 't followed as much ; I haven 't felt the desire to know more about them . I mean , everybody knows what a shit Picasso was . But all of those guys - they were all pigs . I 'm sure Man Ray was a pain in the ass , too . Madonna : I got back and forth . For me , a male image that I 'm really moved by is somewhere between of Oscar Wilde type of a male : the fop , the long hair , the suits , too witty for his own good , incredibly smart , scathingly funny - all that . But then my other ideal is more like the Buddhist monk - the shaved head , actually someone who sublimates their sexuality . Madonna : No . Like one of my yoga teachers , for instance . He has a Jesus - like quality to him . I know he 's heterosexual , he wears earrings and he 's got a very androgynous look to him and long hair . But he has an aesthetic and a humility about him that I think is very appealing and something to aspire to . Madonna : Hunky boys ? Yes , I am attracted to a thug . I like that quality , but I like the other side of it , too . Because all guys who go around behaving in macho ways are really scared little girls . So you have to look beneath the surface . There 's a difference between my ideal man and a man that I 'm sexually attracted to , believe me . Therein lies the rub . Madonna : The crucifix . It 's the first image that sticks in my mind from my childhood . I 've used it a lot in my work ; I 've used it in my videos ; I 've used it on stage . The whole idea of the crucifixion and the suffering of Christ is all kind of intertwined with masochism and Catholicism is a huge part of my upbringing , my past , my influence . And it 's a very powerful image .

I could theoretically write this in the previous days log considering it happened on July 31 , 2000 , but if you care to look back there , it appears a billion people already wrote daylogs and I want to be one of the first before the node becomes nothing but a huge vote dump . Actually , I could care less , but I just feel like having a fresher start , or something . Okay , enough with the excuses . So we went to WALMART tonight , oh WALMART , greatest of establishments constructed solely for the consumer , the consumer looking for stupid crap you don 't need , that is ! Multitudes of random junk , little toys like singing key chains ( don 't dance around to these things , security will start following you , trust me ) . I couldn 't believe the amazing amounts of stupid stuff there was ! I guess I just hadn 't been in a while , it was all quite overwhelming , all the little shoppers milling around carrying odds and ends of . . stuff . My friend bought a glitter lamp , which is of course useless but for the neat water ' y effect it will make on the ceiling of our new place when we finally make it there some time next month . I was drawn to this ice cream scooper whilst we were there , it was a penguin and it was so infinitely dreamy but . . it was twelve dollars . I mean , twelve dollars ! I couldn 't convince myself I needed an ice cream scoop that badly , considering I don 't even eat ice cream but once a month if that . I managed to spew something along the lines of , " This product is far too costly ! I am on a limited budget of close to NOTHING here ! " The only reason we went to Wal - Mart in the first place was to make use of the one hour photo service , but they were already backed up by 8 and so we were too late , and will have to send it away because we don 't make it in to the city often enough to warrant waiting . All those mingling shoppers are at fault ! I miss you so incredibly much that if it weren 't asleep my little heart would be aching right now . Fortunately , I 'm almost too tired to think coherently , though I generally don 't think in an organized fashion as it is . The only thing good about waking up in the morning and then going back to sleep are the crazy fun dreams you have when you 're in that semi - awake state of greatness . We stopped at Tim Horton 's , the little donut shop on the way out of town and we purchased some donut ' y product and some Iced Cappucino goodness . There was a friendly little fly visiting all of the donuts and I suggested my friend launch herself over the counter in a crazed rage and slam her fist down onto the fly while it was feasting on some honey dip . I also noted that it completely avoided the bran muffins , even though there were full rows of those things , because hey , let 's face it , not that many people eat bran muffins and they really should just have one sitting somewhere in case some irregular individual wanders in , desperately seeking fibre . So , me and my friend managed to go through a series of Bloodhoung Gang tunes ( singing them from memory , poor memory at that ) , on the way home . My mother was quite entertained . . obscenity is funnee , you know ? Note : Buy . . . product . . product is your friend . . . spend . . money . . I can help you over . . here . . we are inherently evil . . er , good . . Jesus wants you to have that plastic pokemon character ! That reminds me , I also took the time to write JESUS on an etch - a - sketch , it was obviously asking for it , sitting there with the dials all sticking out and the like . It should also be noted that my ex decided to e - mail me tonight for whatever reason , like I should care that he exists , ignore all the lies . I have a feeling his new girlfriend hasn 't told him about our little chats together . . figures , she 's like that . Oh well . . I 'm going to bed . What will today hold ? . The same as usual or a tantilizing surprise ? Life even though it may not be fun is so interesting that it becomes very difficult to become bored . If you think about it even the most obscure thing can be broken into an infinite number of smaller aspects . Try thinking about them and you can occupy a good portion of a day . When someone says they 're bored , they aren 't bored , they lack the ambition to think . It 's sad but true . Today turned out to be totally fucked . All day my mind was thinking , planning , screaming . Meanwhile my body worked away at sanding a hardwood floor . As it stands right now as of 6 : 09 PM i 'm completely sick of everyone . Besides that , I just came back from a nice weekend in Queretaro , a town I definitely reccomend to visitors of Mexico . A beautiful , big , colonial city centre , with a lot of people - but not overcrowded . And nice , friendly people , all of them , including the taxi drivers ( I know that New Yorkers will not believe me here , but it is true ) . Walked around a lot , ate birria , carnitas and barbacoa . The first night was horrible . I came close to a relationship crash with my SO . The following day we made up , and now we are in a kind of happy , mellow spell - I certainly hope that it lasts . Some swimming in the pool got us both slightly burned in strange spots , which is the effect of hastily applied SPF 20 sun cream . A lot of little tikes running around , but not obnoxious . They even lent us a ball for playing pool - volley ( more like " goofy seal - like creatures volley " if you ask me ) . At work , the Lesser Kahuna is away . The Big Kahuna is back , but I do not interact directly with him out of religious reverence , respect due to age , and a well defined fear that he will fire my ass if I presume . And how should I presume ? . What else ? Miss Nice , the terribly nice new coworker has been nice again , all day long . Maybe she is on drugs , but certainly one welcomes her presence . I am having my techies shuffled from one room to another , due to higher , weightier priorities . This sucks . The same dude keeps pestering me for the same raise , which I cannot grant him because I DO NOT HAVE THE MONEY for it ! My car is broke down again . . . . I was running an errand for my hubby and on the way the car just died . No power steering , no power brakes . I coasted downhill , finally turned into a small driveway running uphill to slow the car and used the emergency brake to stop . We have spent well over $ 350 . 00 in the past month trying to fix this car . So I prayed for an answer . I told my dad about the incident and he said he had two cars that did exactly the same thing . He said it was most likely a bad module in the distributer cap . You know its just been one of those days . Having been at work for 8 hours and 10 minutes or so , I have achieved absolutely squat . Zip . Diddley . Nadda . Zero . Nothing . And all becuase of one stupid program . My current project is pretty unexciting - converting some old DOS code we 've got into Windows because some PCs we have around here don 't handle the DOS communications interrupts well at all . No problem I think . I 've got the old source code , and everything is going well - until I arrive at loading . b52 files . Get all the code in , play with it a little , change some things around to fit into C + + classes . Everything appears to working fine - all the LRCs are coming back perfect , but the code refuses to switch on once its been loaded into the terminal . Try it with the old DOS code - works fine . But my new windows code just refuses to work . Thats about where I was yesterday . So , today I come in and have been playing with every different setup and combination of code and settings and anything else I can think off . RTS on . RTS off . Different delays between packets . Toggle the RTS some more for good luck . Rip the RTS out and fling it across the room . I even spent a 1 / 2 hour examining the differences between an old DOS function delay ( x ) and what I was using , Sleep ( x ) . Nothing as far I can tell . I 've stripped every little bit of code back , shifted it around , recompiled the DOS program with all sorts of debug code , jiggled this and that - all to no avail . As far as I can tell the only difference between my code and the old DOS code now is the communcations library I use and some fuction names . But still it refuses to turn on ! Well , today is the first day of dump the pump campaign . I noticed that the petrol stations I passed where quieter than normal , but not empty . This morning I thought I 'd never get out of my bed . It felt like someone had taken the time to fill my limbs with iron filings and place a large magnet under me bed . Well , I finally got up , but experienced exactly the same problem in the bath . It 's some kind of miracle that I made it to work at all . Just got back from more informational downloads with the cuz , the Vancouver BC girl cop . She 's hilarious . She was relating the story about how she jokes with the folk she picks up , allegedly putting them at ease . " you 've got a nice ass " she will say . Then slowly it dawns on them . . . Between her and her partner , evidently they get the perps so calm that they are wishing each other a good night as they are escorted into the slammer . She just got her belly button pierced , likes boys , and likes beer . She needs a date , and she 'd protect your sorry ass , geek . ( and she 's blonde , from NZ , and cute ! ) she also has a microbiology degree . My cousins are mostly eccentric . One of them is a Nun , another is a self professed " healing prophet " , a couple of basic christians , a hippy , the rest are geeks , bless them . A friend is asking me to produce some " piripolkka " ( a Finnish slang term translating to " amphetamine polka " ) , since there supposedly is a huge demand for domestic material . You know what I 'm talking about : the kind of simple and hard house / trance from labels like Tidy Trax , Nukleuz etc . The genre with roughly 75 % of the tracks using the classic Alpha Juno preset " what the . . . " first made popular by Human Resource 's Dominator hit , and vocal samples already used a million times since the late 80s . Although stuff like this sometimes plays on my minidisc walkman , I 'm not particularily interested in it . And with no passion or personal motivation it 's hard to start producing it . Especially since originality seems to be a dirty word in the ' polkka circles . . Still , I 'd hate to let my friend down , so I 'm at least going to try . Heh , it took this long for the tabloids to report Henry the Great being busted for drugs in a club here in Hämeenlinna . Since it 's common knowledge ( at least among people I know ) that Henkka is a real vacuum cleaner when it comes to cocaine , the headlines weren 't that shocking . But I guess an ex - porn star with cash flow problems could use all the publicity they could get ? If hell would have a first name , it 'd be Erica , like my aunt . She arrived last Friday yet I didn 't find the courage to mention her in a daylog till today , sweet Tuesday . I was intending to describe how she entered my life , what history I have with her , what kind of person she is and how I love her , yet fail to find the words to define her presence in my life now that I sit down and actually take the time to think things over . I may or may not be making sense now . I don 't know . Others write day logs to bring order to their lives , I only cause myself confusion . I feel like I must pass an important message to someone , but forgot what the message was and whom I had to deliver it to . Hmm , I 'm definitely not making sense now . Again , again ! My aunt Erica . Born in concentration camp Bergen - Belsen , her mother died of typhoid , my grandmother took care of her , together they were transported to Auschwitz . They both survived , moved into a small house in Holland , my grandmother had some relationships , gave birth to some children ( under which my mother who moved to Spain when she was 14 ) , somehow totally lost it and committed suicide when Erica was about 25 . Erica fell in love with a catholic and moved to Argentina where she got married . I didn 't hear anything from her , until recently . Last Thursday she called me up to say she was going to take the next plane to Holland , and would be staying for three months . In my house . Now she 's here and I 'm still trying to define how I feel about her . Aunt Erica . She 's like 1 m . 40 ( which is tiny , almost midget - like ) , continuously talks to me in rapid Spanish and sometimes in Dutch , but no matter what language she speaks she just won 't shut up . Her voice is loud , she talks too fast and too nervously , I already had the first complaints from neighbors about the noise pollution . She 's obsessed with cleaning , always moving furniture . She walks half naked through my house and she makes pictures of me while I 'm sleeping , eating or just reading a book . She calls my cats ' li ' l farts ' or ' fuckies ' . If this sounds absurd , that 's cause it is . Absurd , and a constant source of irritation . I loathe her , I love her . I don 't know . There 's no doubt she 's the same aunt I 'd last seen when I was a kid , but somehow there is something totally wrong with her . She frightens me and makes me emotional . I used to wear this solid mask of sarcasm which I could only get rid of when I was all alone at home , but now I 'm forced to either permanently remove the mask , or become a lunatic . Tonight while she was asleep , my boyfriend came over . In the middle of the night he hugged me and kissed me and whispered sweet nothings quiet enough for my aunt not to wake up . I don 't think I 'd ever felt so safe before . When my aunt found us sleeping in each other 's arms this morning , she made some vulgar remark , snickered and moved the couch we sat on to ' clean up the mess we 'd made ' . This is all wrong , I should not be typing this . I should be ranting about stupid coworkers and my drug selling kid neighbors . I may or may not have fucked this daylog up . I may or may not care . Today is the first of the UK " Fuck the environment , I want to use my car " days . I hate cars . I would place money on these drivers not using a hybrid engine car if they had the chance . I hate the excuses that the car drivers make : " I have to commute 100 miles and there 's no public transport " Ever heard of homeworking or teleworking ? " I have to use a car to get the shopping " Ever heard of home delivery ? Unfortunately , the last time I voiced these opinions with my colleagues , I was shot down in flames . People actually laughed when someone seriously said that they didn 't give a shit about the future world . I think that I 've given up hope for the world in 100 years ' time . I suppose it 's my own selfish mind ; I don 't want to try and answer a child 's question when I 'm old " Why did your generation destroy the planet , grandad ? " Of course , these are emotive arguments - hardly rational or compelling . Therefore , I say to the UK ( and other ) car drivers - please take the time to work out how much money you would save on petrol if you used a hybrid engine . Just 5 minutes of your time . Perhaps these links would help you : Today was International Wear Your Shirt Inside Out Day . I got yelled at from people in cars , informing me of the fact that my shirt was the wrong way round . If your life is non - eventful , sometimes it 's fun to make up your own events to observe . inclusion in someone 's database . It means , uh , stripping the remnants of HTML tags in some cases , stripping a ton of newline characters in other cases , and making note of missing info - - the absence of a phone number here , a city there . I sat in the CyberCafe in Soho last week , with the webmaster of the porn sites that use the aforementioned database , looking at some of the sites , feeling a bit squeamish there , wondering if any of the cafe patrons were I first registered to vote ( in 1984 ) , I was in North Carolina , and there was no escaping voting - - we needed to oust the twin scourges of Ronald Reagan and Jesse Helms , and my girlfriend 's mother was in charge of registering new voters . To end the questions of " When are you gonna register ? " ( in a strange Bavarian / Carolina accent ) , I registered , but as a Democrat , but I vowed ( to myself ) that I 'd register Republican , should I find myself back in the New York / New England area again . I passed up on my first chance , but now have those any more ) for them . No amount of cheerleading by the great and good ( though sometimes wrong , if not wrongheaded ) Marvin Olasky can convince me that W isn 't talking out of both sides of his mouth ( with his fingers crossed behind his back ) when he utters anything in " compassionate conservative " mode . And if you have to go such lengths to affix the adjective " compassionate " to your spiel , maybe something 's wrong with your spiel to begin with . What 's the Compassionate Conservative Death Count up to now ? Slept in until noon today . It was kinda nice to wake up and have lunch rightaway . After lunch , I finished up what was left of a small tub of chocolate ice - cream , and realized that there was only one filter for the coffee - maker left . Logged in to E2 today to realize that I was the victim of a bit more systematic downvoting . I feel better about this realising that after each on my nodes has been downvoted , the perpetrator will only be able to downvote my new nodes and probably get bored with me . No more everything user tears for me . In another month I 'll be back in school . Vacation ( read Work Term ) is almost over , and I don 't think I like that . Back to the seemingly endless stream of classes and late study nights , and trillions of other things to do on the side . Sometimes I wonder if it wouldn 't be better to just stayed here in Ottawa , instead of going back home to Vancouver . But I guess most of my friends are leaving too , their work terms are finished as well . It 's not that I hate school , or Vancouver , in fact I love them both . It 's that I 've just started enjoying this whole money and freedom thing . It 's intoxicating really , being able to spend late nights carousing about town with friends , only having to worry about work 9 - 5 . I hate slipping into finishing mode . You know what I mean , that state of mind , where you are preparing to leave a place , so you are trying to tie up all the loose ends before you leave , and feel unwilling to start anything new . Don 't want to start that new workout program yet , I should wait until I get back home . It looks like I may actually be able to afford a new computer this summer ! I 'm planning to build an 800 MHz Athlon system ( motherboard based on the kx133 chipset ) with a bigass hard drive , a soundblaster live ! ( yay for digital output ! ) , and as much memory as I can afford . I 'll just cannibalize the ethernet and VooDoo2 cards out of the old box for now . I need ideas for it 's name . ( and I will not stoop to naming my box after an M - noder , no matter how much XP you try to bribe me with ) email based survey : Send HTML form with action as web page . . . Netscape won 't post when submitting from an Outlook preview pane . Debugging shit like that is so fucking hard ! I 'm beginning to feel slightly dirty for getting voted up so much for my day logs ; either what I 'm saying is very profound and interesting and really contributes something valuable to Everything , or people just habitually upvote . Although , I think that I 've become a " victim " of systematic upvoting . . . woohoo ! E2 Loves Me ! Yesterday was a day of recovery . Recovery from an impressive four alarm bash on Saturday , recovery from an impressive four alarm hangover still lingering and fighting me , recovery for a house too messy to believe and recovery from a good friend 's death . That 's a full day , so I told the temp agency to go to hell and spent six hours cleaning , laundering and grocery shopping . Alright . Maybe that 's a little bit of fiction . . . maybe I spent an hour or two playing video games in there somewhere . Maybe . There aren 't any witnesses though , so piss off . Very redeeming , in it 's own sort of way . Of course , that makes today all that much harder to go in for . There 's this growing progression of lateness that seems to be getting worse everyday . . . Today I didn 't really mind being 15 minutes late , tomorrow it will probably be 20 . At some point I 'm going to end up here for an hour or so a day . Yesterday : After ~ 15 hr of sleep , I wake at 5AM , brew some coffee , daylog , feeling like unto a GOD . 8 hr of work wears the edge off that considerably . In my new department - birthday - party - coordinator role , I order a couple of pizzae and hit up my department coworkers for $ 1 a slice . ( Actually , that doesn 't really cover the cost of pizza alone , much less tax , delivery , and tip , but I don 't much care . ) Another shot at finalizing pension rollover to 401 ( k ) - I hereby attest , under penalty of perjury , that I 'm sick of red tape . I spend the evening writing . Today : It 's a strain to avoid detailing my workday . I 'd hate to look back on my journals , a decade from now , and discover I found nothing outside the factory noteworthy . I propose a new job title , since my boss seems to have forgotten : " Quality Assurance Analyst " . Obviously a step up from clerk , but not a supervisor . He likes it . I suspected he would : it sounds good and means nothing . Laundry : blacks and cool colors . I leave a few used issues of Scientific American to complement the laundromat 's selection of Woman 's Day , The Watchtower , and Entertainment Weekly . It 's good to finally be awake . Not that I haven 't had lots of fun the last couple of days , but I was exhausted . I spent most of Monday evening after work sleeping . Sunday was 16 hours of Everything as it was the fun filled Florida Everything Get - Together II in Ft . Myers . I will node about that soon . What I did with juliet 's feather boa alone should get me mad xp . ( I bet you 're curious now , eh ? ) Monday was the early shift , another exhausting freshman orientation on five hours of sleep . But my University Experience class filled up yesterday . Yay ! My paycheck is secure . In my trunk is a Sony 300 disc CD changer I bought on the way to work . I can 't exactly afford it right now , but hey , I deserve it . Okay , I really don 't deserve it , but what the hell . Service Merchandise is phasing out a lot of its departments so lots of stuff is on sale . I picked up the CD player for only $ 200 . I don 't know what 's going on with Maxed . Adnan is posting articles on a seemingly random basis . He just posted Kevin 's Monday column today , and he has yet to post my news article about Amnesty International I wrote last week when the news was breaking . Now the news is a week old . So last night , I blew off my regular Tuesday column , because if Adnan was more interested in making T - shirts for his fraternity than updating the site , then I 'm not going to lose sleep over an article he might not bother to post anyway . Is this the first crack in the wing , so to speak , before the airplane crashes in flames ? Or is it simply a sign of a bumpy road we have to endure before the content management software is up and running ? Maybe I shouldn 't be investing so much mental energy in this venture , but I can not help but get excited over a soapbox of this potential magnitude . Sure , I could go back to the Oracle and write for them , but then my articles would get badly edited by an idiot sophomore mass communications major , and if I feel like writing a three page article on the ancient Greek poet Archilochus , it won 't get rejected because it 's not " timely " . I h ( thing ) Acquired a new user on my website ( www . voidptr . net ) . He seems to be from the netherlands and really enjoys playing with my toys . He must have changed my background at least 10 times and flicked my lights on and off at least 20 times . I 'm glad I can amuse people . Day four of Stacker2 . Only took one pill today . experienced some mild heart palpitation type of things . Lost one pound so far , I think . If I don 't lose more by the end of the week , I 'm going to stop taking it because if it doesn 't work , there 's no point . whelp , had a normal day , I got to talk to the lady i 'm courting right now ( hehe , got her phone number : D ) , i got a little work done , I got a lot of browsing the internet done , and I made it through my Calculus class . Unfortunately , my final is Friday : ( That 's gonna hurt . I gotta go get some jitters out . i hate having to bike uphill on the way back no matter which way i go . I miss the suburbs that way . oh well . peace in the midwest . A friend of mine from high school flew into town today , he 's been gone for 2 years in the U . S . Army . We actually " dated " in high school , but it was one of those silly relationships where you don 't even hold hands . Later , though , just before he left for the Army , actually , we started really dating for a while and did the whole sex thing . Which was weird in itself because I 've known him so long as simply friends . I broke it off mainly because I had done it for the wrong reasons and he left . So I saw him tonight and he 's really changed . I remember when I first knew him we 'd talk on the phone for hours on end about everything or nothing and there were so many depths to him I found amazing . Things went sour , because of me as usual , and he changed on me . I never saw those depths of him again . He covered it with goofiness , being the clown . Sometimes I wondered if it was even there . I found out it was tonight . It shocked me . He wasn 't so goofy - a total contrast I was shocked to silence . We talked as we once did long ago in a world very unlike the one now . He told me I was his first love and still his only love , and that it hurt him because I never loved him back . And he 's right . I never did . It 's just weird , you know , that I never knew . That has got to be one of the oddest things I 've ever asked my brother . But , hey , I did . It was one weird British show on phobias late this night , where a small boy was conquering his fear of dogs . The last step we saw was him going over to touch a dog ( Something he never did before ) . The first thing the kid does is pet the dog 's ass . Quite a few MST3K - like gags for the rest of the show had a punchline involving touching a dog 's ass . Boy , am I glad we 're out of hot dog chili at Meijer . I swear , about twenty people TODAY asked me if we had any of the stuff that 's on sale . Thankfully , I answered no . . . added to the number of people who asked me YESTERDAY , it makes me wonder how badly the city would stink if we actually HAD enough chili for all these bean - eating geriatrics . . . Let 's see , this morning I had watch for 4 hours from 3 : 30 to 7 : 30 am , worked out , did paperwork , took a nooner , went to General Quarters for two hours ( Battle Stations kind of Crap - I keep track of all the damage on the ship and help get it fixed ) . Relax . . . Then , dinner time , a meeting , and watch again from 7 : 30pm to 11 : 30pm . After watch I read e2 and then try and fix broken PDT 's . I inherited a bastardized Windows NT Network that tracks sensor data in real time for all four main machinery rooms and the two Auxilliary spaces . It is a serious , one hundred percent pain in the ass . Lots of equipment doesn 't actually have sensors - - instead , people have to run around with little handheld computers and enter data , which is then downloaded into the program and well , stored , I guess . It 's a log keeping , trend analysis thing . Guess what the PDT 's run on . . . MS - DOS ! ! Ain 't that great ? Answer : Hell no . They are unreliable as hell , because on top of operating in temperatures regularly above 100 degrees , and being dropped and kicked and dunked in water , they also run a bastardized versionof DOS ! ! Although , at least I know a little about DOS . One good thing . . . I finally almost finished a class for my MBA - - and the prof says I 'll be receiving an A . WOOHOO ! Only three more incompletes to clear ! ! OH DEAR ! ! / me weeps . Weird mix of good day and fucking bad day today . Started ok . I actually got enough sleep last night ( shuddup - five hours is enough sleep ) , got to work on time , with a stop to get tea and a bagel . Then , I got in yet another damn car accident . I say " yet another " because my LAST car was totaled less than three months ago . Both not my fault , both a fair amount of damage . Then , I rush to a meeting that I get to in the nick of time to find out has been . . . canceled . " We left a message for you . " Uh huh . Today I started my holiday in Chelmsford , UK . Today 's adventure was merely the long drive from Liverpool to the base of operations in Chelmsford . Tomorrow , I start the holiday proper . The view out of the back window is quite nice though ; I will be posting pictures on the internet soon , and will place the URL here as soon as they 're up . Need help ? accounthelp @ everything2 . comRecommended ReadingAbout Everything2User Pickswhy Trump detractors are about to get everything they ever wantedLithic Walkthrough Part 5Monopoly Pub CrawlI just had a pap smear , for crying out loud . Don 't invite me out for coffee . Minnesota Fatsthe clouds are beautiful , and you will never knowEditor PicksHundred Years WarRiceMotorcycle helmetThomas JeffersonYou feel lonelyEveryone has a dead bird storyNew WriteupsLithic Walkthrough Part 5

PA initially thinking that this career path would led to a better work - home balance . And while I do enjoy my job and a great schedule , I yearn to learn more and take on more responsibility . I would appreciate your advice on a couple of things : and patient centered medicine and seem very open to non - traditional students . I have met well - trained doctors from both osteopathic and allopathic schools . However , there seem to be fewer residency programs making it less likely that I would be near family for support . I would really appreciate hearing from you ladies about your opinion on osteopathic versus allopathic ! Pathologists are a unique breed . We lack the romanticism of psychiatrists - we cannot equal the beautiful poetry of Juliaink . We lack the braniac of neurosurgeons - we can only wish to be as rocket scientist as gcs15 . We lack the adventurousness of OB 's - MomTFH , Dr . Whoo , and RH + are in a league of their own . We lack the sleuthiness ( new word ! ) of internal medicine docs - we can hope and aspire to be like KC , Genmedmom , and MomT , but alas it can never be . We lack the empathy and sacrifice of the medical oncologists such as The Red Humor and Tempeh . We lack the finesse of the surgeons like Cutter , and the intellectualism of the neurologists like Artemis . We lack the heart and dedication of the cardiologists like JC , and the virtuousness of the pediatricians like MommaBee and T . We lack the blanket aspirations of pre - med students like Kyla - no matter where her path in life eventually takes her , it will be great . We lack the mystery of the PM & R doc , whose job I still do not understand despite numerous explanations by Fizzy . All I can say is thank goodness she has her cartoon talent going for her . We are just lab rats . But we try to be cool lab rats . My partner sent a memo last week entitled " The Twelve Specimens of Christmas . " I won 't insult you by telling you what Christmas tune to call to mind when I give you the final refrain . I also won 't type the entire song because A ) it will take too long and B ) you will get the point from the final refrain . Every year I give my favorite pathologists a gift . Under $ 10 . 00 - it 's the thought that counts . This year I got all the girls a cute mousepad with a cartoon of a chick on it , underneath it said , " Pathology Chick . " The boys got a cool art deco mousepad with repeating microscope pics in soothing browns , greens , and blues . Everyone got a card . It was this . The insert read , " Seasons Greetings to all my favorite pathologists . All twenty of them - don 't worry , I 'm not singling anyone out with this card , but I decided we need to change our image . Someone I write with actually told me a few years ago that she thought all pathologists grew ear hair . Really ? I 'd never heard of ear hair . So hang up this card in a high traffic area . I guarantee in a year we will all be more gorgeous for the effort . Except Brent of course . Even this card cannot perform miracles . " I enjoyed walking around the lab , stealth - like , watching all my partners palpating their ears with a perplexed look on their face looking for sudden growth . Thanks for the inspiration , one of my favorite co - writers - you know who you are Fizzy ( oops I was trying to keep it a secret that I actually like you a bunch - any readers who believe otherwise be damned . No , never mind , I wouldn 't damn anyone , just setting the record straight . We give each other shit because we love each other , really ) . I hope all of my co - writers on MiM and every reader out there , including aspiring pathologists ( good luck H ! I really enjoyed chatting with you the other day ) has a wonderful holiday . Posted by I have today ( Friday ) off from my clinic , in preparation of Babygirl 's first birthday party tomorrow and Christmas in general , but I came to work anyways , to drop off Christmas presents for the nurses and office staff . I was feeling pretty good until the NPR commentator announced , " . . . let us now pause to take a moment of silence to pause in honor of those exactly one week ago . Remember that it was at this time of the morning last Friday December fourteenth that twenty elementary schoolchildren and six teachers were gunned down at a Connecticut elementary school . . . . " I cried last Friday when I first saw the headlines about this shooting , and I cried again as I was driving in . Every day , I think about those families , and wonder we can do for them . I can 't help but pause for a moment to think about them , and then to be thankful for my own little family , our two beautiful kids , our hectic workaday lives , every day full of small and large joys . I want to help them . There are things that I can do as a human being , a parent , and a physician , to offer some help to those families . . . There are things we can all do . Since last week , I have signed two petitions appealing to our politicians for stricter gun laws , including a ban on all military - style assault weapons . The most effective of these is on the We The People website , an open - access petition site : anyone can start a petition to the government , and any petition that gathers more than 25 , 000 signatures is guaranteed a response from the White House . In the hours after the Newtown shooting , user David G . started a petition asking for stricter gun control legislation ; this gun control legislation petition has now gathered over 190 , 000 signtaures , in a week , and has received alot of attention as the most popular petition to ever appear on the We The People site . Guns are a public health issue , and need legislation around them protecting citizens from risk of harm , similar to cars . Try replacing the saying " Guns don 't kill people , people kill people " with " Cars don 't kill pWhy , for God 's sake , do we not have even a fraction of the same legislation and monitoring of guns ? We don 't shrug and say , " Oh well , no need for laws around car safety , we just need to work on our substance abuse and mental health care system ! " * * I take this analogy - though it is a common one - from Nicholas Kristof 's brilliant New York Times Op - Ed piece Do We Have The Courage To Stop This , published after the Newtown shooting , and I recommend it to everyone . These are my personal thoughts and opinions , as a doctor and a mother . . . and a rational human being . Posted by What do you even say on a national blog after last Friday ? How do you start over and talk about normal things again ? How do you pretend that Friday didn 't happen , and chat on as usual ? Tonight my group interviewed a resident for a pathology position . A first , since I 've been there . My colleague Brent and I ( aka Dr . Woods - I named him this , as a golf enthusiast , before the Tiger scandal ) were hired almost six years ago , and our work family is just now finding a need for new members , based on multifactorial reasons . We had the resident meet and greet on our home turf for a couple of hours starting at 3 : 00 p . m , then about a quarter of us , spouses included - for those of us who have them ha ha not me - met him at a local country club two of my partners belong to for dinner . His spouse was stellar . " Don 't I know you ? " She said . I must qualify a bit . I was born in the same town I currently live in and the wonderful thing about that is that I have major roots . I can go just about anywhere and bump into someone I know . Ran to Walgreen 's tonight before the dinner and saw a resident below me who now works at the Arkansas Crime Lab . He relayed a colleague 's , one I had met on my resident rotation , sudden and random death . It was devastating . I held back tears and apologized to him - not that any of it was my responsibility , but I remembered this man . How energizing he was , and how he taught me an incredibly cool way to dissect a heart that made a hell of a lot more sense than anything I had been taught thus far . I told Daniel , " I am so sorry . My partners are like my family . That must have been devastating for you . " He looked at me , clearly pleased I understood . " It was . We are interviewing too . Because of the loss . It 's hard . " I did know the spouse of our interview candidate . When I was taking pre - med courses , post college - I graduated at 20 with a failed attempt times two at Ph . D school for psychology - she was taking the same classes . She and her husband , our candidate , have four children . She is a pharmaceutical rep for a hospital . She was so much fun to talk to . I dined on lobster cakes and oyster salad . Most of my colleagues had the fried chicken buffet . As the evening was drawing to an end , and most of the party had exited to relieve sitters or pick up adult children from airports for the holidays , I addressed our interview candidate . Told him I had bumped into the crime lab doc , and we commiserated over the death of a great attending . I wondered aloud if he had gotten to know the head of the crime lab . Told him he was quiet , and it was difficult but well worth the effort . He had not . I said , " He is great . One of the best advocates I know for abused children . He gets in there in the courtroom and fights those lame experts on the opposite side who make up stuff about bone disease when it is all really abuse . No one fights for the toddlers who are whacked too hard by a baseball bat carried by the boyfriend of the mom who is working to make money to support her kids . No one opposes the blue - haired lady on the jury who says , ' No way that guy , who looks like my grandson , could have possibly hurt that kid . ' Guess what , lady , he did . " Then I looked our interview candidate square in the eye . " Were you affected by Friday 's massacre ? I mean really affected ? Because that stuff happens every day in our country . And most of it doesn 't get this kind of attention . This just might be a vehicle for change , you know ? Unnecessary , senseless , awful , but still . Gun change , sure . Child abuse , everyone 's on board for that . But mental illness in our society , it 's so fragmented these days , you know ? Treatment is not available , and everyone advocates drugs , not help and talk therapy . I know the killer shouldn 't be the victim , but he is , in a way . We are all responsible , especially as doctors . " He smiled back and agreed with me . He 's a candidate for an amazing job , what else is he going to do but agree with me ? We don 't talk to candidates , however , without extensive vetting and he made it this far . Which is pretty impressive - I 've got a talented , smart as hell , picky group . Looking for another family member . Hoping we just met him tonight . I think it will work out the way it is supposed to . Things usually do . I try not to look at more than one article a day on the NYTimes , regarding last Friday . Because it makes me cry . And that hinders work . But I think reading about it honors those involved . I have written my children 's teachers personal e - mails , because I think they are heroes . Sad that it takes Friday to bring that to my frontal lobe / attention . But it did . My children 's teachers are my , and even more so their heroes . I wish them well , and hope desperately that they are finding sleep easily these days . It 's certainly eluding me . Jess said it best , below . A leaf should fall . A world should pause . And we should all hold and honor our children . I watched a child die . Literally . Took his last breath in front of me . It wasn 't an unexpected death , but nonetheless , still very sad . What do you say when your partner says " How was your day at the office honey " ? What do you say ? How many of you share your bad days with your spouse ? If you don 't , how do you assimilate what you deal with into your life ? Life went on that day , as it has to , after his death . Yet , I couldn 't help but think the universe should have stopped in some way , briefly , to mark his passing . A leaf should fall , or the world should go quiet for 60 seconds . We lost a child . Our community lost a child . We lost the promise of his life , the contribution he could have made to our society . What would his life have looked like ? The impact of watching life slip away was huge , on all the staff , as well as the family . I found myself wondering , watching his mom stroking his arm just before he died , how do you comprehend that this evening , your child will not be with you ? That your family will go from 5 to 4 . How do you tell his siblings that he died ? I watched my colleague go straight from his death to a mundane meeting , wondering how is it that life goes on after this little boy has just died ? I know it must , as mine did , and I know that the family 's loss is not mine . My children are safe and well . So , my question is , how much do you share with your partner and your friends ? Do you have people in your life that you can share your sadness with , or do you have to deal with this on your own ? Not being able to debrief because you need to protect others is a lonely married , with two healthy gorgeous babes . I stumbled across MIM a few months ago and have been following it avidly since , as it helps me to deal with some of the issues I face , being a working mother in medicine . Posted by I was at a meeting recently with several female physicians and young therapists . We were discussing a patient who was 45 years old and had a six year old son . One of the therapists commented : I 'm an anesthesiology resident transitioning back to work from maternity leave . While I love what I do , there have been quite a few days when I definitely feel that the transition back to work is not as fast as I 'd like . The days where I feel like I 'm relearning things I used to know . Yes it 's kind of like riding a bike after you haven 't been riding one in be entering one lung . The PAC balloon is inflated and the hemoptysis seems to have stopped for a while . The patient seems relatively stable with good sats and bp and the patient 's main physician consults ICU to take the patient for close observation . At the back of my head is this niggling feeling as I am not quite sure whether this tamponade from the PAC balloon will hold - should we consider if we need a surgeon to sew up whatever 's bleeding ? But soon , the patient is bleeding again , CPR is started , the surgeon shows up but the patient is too unstable and despite best efforts , the resuscitation is unsuccessful . When I get back home , I read up on this , and more questions fill my thoughts . What if we 'd gotten a cardiothoracic surgery consult much earlier on ? Or heart - lung bypass ? But now it 's too late for the what - ifs and should - haves . I just wished I had known more at the time to be more useful . it , but to switch it entirely . I know that ! But hadn 't done it fast enough . In a simulator , it 's not a real patient crashing and that 's great . But if this was a real - life situation , that patient may not have been as good . Have you ever felt this way ? Have you ever had cases that didn 't go as well as you 'd liked ? How did you handle it ? Hey , remember me ? I 'm the internist who had two kids in two years , ate everything I wanted throughout both pregnancies , and then realized I had gotten REALLY fat and out of shape . Like , BMI 30 , obesity fat . I started a South - Beach - Style low - processed carb diet and started exercising - which was VERY painful at first . See previous posts on that . I think I wrote that my first time back jogging I felt like a manatee on land . Since then , I 've maintained a basically low - carb diet ( with the occasional celebration / feast ) , and a basic exercise routine ( with the occasional lazy week ) , and I 've continued to slowly burn fat and build muscle . Now , I 've gone from 163 pounds to 121 pounds . At 5 foot 2 , this puts me at BMI 23 ! I am not yet at my goal , which is for 50 pounds lost , back to my pre - pregnancy weight of 113 pounds . I 'm trying not to feel like a failure because I 'm not there yet . ( How Type - A is that ? ) But I am proud of what I have accomplished so far , and I offer myself as an example to others , including my patients . Here are some take - away points and tips : GET SUPPORT : Last January , I stated my intentions to my family , and they were enthusiastic to help me . I work part - time , 5 clinical sessions of primary care , which really is a 40 hour week at least . My husband works as a writer and broadcaster so works from home alot but also travels alot . My mom helps with childcare , and we have a babysitter . So , in short , though I work alot and intensely , and hubby works , I have alot of support to help me with logistics / kid care . But more importantly , my family has been all - in behind my efforts . My husband shares the grocery shopping and cooking ; he buys healthy groceries and cooks good food . He eats and enjoys the healthy food I cook . Our family gatherings tend not to be laden with " bad " stuff . So that helps . Everyone is happy to let me have some " me " time to exercise . This is key ! SLOW AND STEADY : I 'd go many days of staying consistent on my diet and then have a slip - up day . That 's OK as long as you get back on the horse as soGenmedmom Last week I was covering our cytology rotation , which can be very demanding . There are a lot of diagnostic radiology needles . We are also responsible for junk surgicals , as we nickname them - gallbladders , tonsils , breast reductions , hemorrhoids . We call them junk because they are easy to look at and sign out , most being very routine cases with only one or two slides . Occasionally there is a surprise tough case ( gangrenous toe chock full of melanoma , for example ) but overall they go quick . One day I had a tray full of hemorrhoids . They are usually easy cases , normal sign out being " Dilated submucosal vessels , consistent with hemorrhoids . " You have to check out the overlying epithelium to make sure there is no dysplasia , being ever vigilant . Some breast reductions have carcinoma in situ . It happens . Some hemorrhoids have overlying HPV ( Human Papillomavirus ) changes . Whenever I have a surprise like this , I generally contact the clinician . I usually have a hemorrhoid or two , but a whole tray ? I spoke to a friend . " Either the surgeons are having a blue light special or there is an epidemic of which I am unaware . " I have written of hemorrhoids in the past . Gangrenous hemorrhoids , to be exact . I won 't rehash that in this post , but you can read about it here , if you want . I thought that was the most interesting hemorrhoid case I would ever see , but then I came across one that was oriented . Orientation is necessary in pathology for many cancer cases . Here 's a good example . In all breast excisional biopsies , the techs will ink the margins according to the surgeon 's marks . Sometimes the surgeons use long and short pieces of thread tied to the tissue . " Long superior , short lateral . " Since a breast biopsy looks like a technicolor version of a lump of scrambled eggs , this is helpful to us in the gross room . The tech inks the margins according to the surgeon 's notes , and describes it to us in their gross description . " Black anterior , blue lateral / posterior , green medial / posterior , " for example . That way , when we see the slide the next day , if the cancer is plowing into a margin , we can see the green ink and note it in our report ( invasive carcinoma transected at the medial / posterior margin ) so the surgeon can go back and get a clear margin . But I was very surprised to see a case of oriented hemorrhoids , my first . There were three different specimens . The first two were " left hemorrhoid " and " right hemorrhoid . " Left and right hemorrhoids ? Are you the surgeon looking at the person ? Is the person supine or prone ? Or are you the sitting person ? And the third one was the kicker . " Left posterior hemorrhoid . " Really , posterior ? Aren 't all hemorrhoids posterior ? And why does a hemorrhoid need to be oriented ? If you don 't get a clear margin on an invasive cancer , sure , you need to know , because it can recur . But a hemorrhoid transected ? I imagined a transected hemorrhoid , dangerously spreading and growing out a patient 's ears . Ha ha . Doesn 't happen . So I 'm wondering if any surgeons out there can enlighten me . Or maybe it was the surgeon 's joke on me . In any instance , I enjoyed wondering why on Earth a hemorrhoid needed to be oriented . Posted by I 'm currently doing the dreaded stint as the chief resident in the burn unit . Its a particularly grueling rotation , lots of getting called in from home , crazy sick patients and lots of terribly sad stories . It is taking an emotional toll on me , and I 've been missing out on seeing by little peanut . For the first time since I 've come back from the lab I 've gone two full days without seeing her . I have cried a record number of times after countless family meetings at the end of hours of doing everything we could . Thankfully , I 've had a fabulous and amazing team of interns , nurses , chaplains , social workers and support staff to be on this journey with me . However , despite the support , the one thing I haven 't managed to cope with very well is the non - accidental injuries . I have always found child abuse unbelievable horrifying , but as a mom , my horror about this has reached new levels . In particular , a recent child I operated on , who is very similar in many ways to my own , has left me having nightmares every day in which I see her injuries on my precious daughter . I wake up gasping and anxious and immediately go hug my daughter or go to her room and stare at her while she sleeps . I 've talked to other moms with similar experiences , a pregnant NICU fellow fighting the nightmares about her unborn child mirroring the illnesses she saw each day , the burn unit nurse manager who I sat and chatted with in her office about how this unit makes you so hypervigilant about protecting your kids , but the one thing we fail to come up with is a solution . How do you make the nightmares stop ? I even talked to my own mom , who doesn 't need to be in medicine to understand the disturbing fear a parent feels anytime they see another child harmed . ( My mom is awesome by the way , just want to throw that out there because she is my greatest mentor as I navigate this crazy journey of motherhood ! ) So , tomorrow I will go to the spa , and try and lose my thoughts and replace them with relaxing calm . I will continue to listen to my mindful meditation CD 's as I drive home from a particularly horrifying day of work . I will continue to delight in my beautiful , amazing blessing of a child each moment I see her . And , I will pray for the beautiful children who have endured hurt and pain and pray that they someday receive the love they deserve . situation is as follows : my girlfriend and I both graduated from an offshore medical school this past June . Neither of us are from the US and I actually attended medical school on scholarship from my country 's government . In return , I am supposed to give them 4 years of service following graduation and as such , I did not bother to apply for the match in my 4th year since I planned to go home and fulfill my obligation . My girlfriend , who is from a different country and who has no such obligation to return to her homeland , obtained a residency position in a small Ob / Gyn program ( only 3 interns / year ) in New Jersey where she is currently halfway through her intern year . During we have together , even more so when her mom actually has a little free time to spend with us . However , as we near the end of the year , my time here is drawing to an end and Dr . B is freaking out at the thought of Peach and I leaving her here alone . She is already guilt - ridden about the very little time she gets to spend with Peach and she is dreading the day when Peach is no longer here for her to hold and kiss and love when she gets home from the hospital . As a result she is reconsidering letting Peach go home with me , however neither of us can see any feasible alternative . At this time , we cannot afford to pay for the kind B 's crazy work schedule . Our apartment , which we share with Dr . B 's full - time student brother , is not big enough to accommodate a live - in nanny either . The situation in my home country is less than ideal as well since I would also have to be working crazy hours as an intern , and to stay here beyond the end of the year . Currently , Peach and I are booked to leave at the end of December but I know at any time Dr . B can change her mind and say that she won 't let Peach go with me . If Peach leaves with me as planned , Dr . B won 't see her again until the end of March when she takes her next vacation . As far as I can see there is no ideal situation for the foreseeable future as we both have commitments to work in 2 different countries for at least the next 4 years and although we are committed to each other and to our daughter , it will take at least that long for us to be a nuclear family unit again after I leave . This prospect is daunting to say the least ! Neither of us want to be away from the other or from Peach , but our situation necessitates the separation . I 'd like to explore the option of Peach splitting her time between the US with her mom and my country but that would have to be after we have saved enough money to afford to pay a carer regularly . Does anyone out there have any experience in such a situation where both parents are doctors and one has to live and work far away from the other ? Are there any options for childcare that I am missing ? What advice can you guys offer us as we prepare to face this extreme parenting and relationship challenge ? Prior to our 3rd year clerkship lottery , we voted on special considerations for the clerkship lottery . Basically , students emailed in their special needs , and an email was sent to the class with the anonymous requests and we could vote on them . These were some of the requests I remember : Out of our class of 100 + students , 12 anonymously asked for special considerations . Out of the 12 , 10 passed through majority class vote . ( Notably , the car one didn 't pass , the one with kids / births did . ) I actually voted yes for all of them , mostly because I felt if they believed it was important enough to get special consideration , they cared about it a lot . This is ridiculous ! Many of those reasons were absolutely silly . What was the percent of votes needed to pass this anyway ? I can 't believe the votes passed with those stupid reasons these students gave . Because for one thing , if your parents are ill , get a visiting nurse , since there is nothing you can do while you are studying anyway . Secondly , all these people that want to take care of their family or assist with their wife 's pregnancy or take care of the children or see your children and all that . . . well , we all have loved ones we would like to see as often as possible , but because we chose such a demanding profession , we simply don 't necessarily have that luxury . We just make it work without having to subject our colleagues to it . If it matters so much , have your family member move to where you are or you can commute or hire a baby sitter that can pick your children up from school . I easily could have said something equally lame , but I sacrificed and let people with more important reasons have their say . But all these crazy reasons , I tell you , is unfair to the class as a whole and it is especially unfair to people that had good reasons but took the initiative to find solutions to their issues . We generally all thought this particular person was being extremely selfish . What do you think ? I was once at a pancake breakfast for my kid 's school . Cesilly was 5 , Jack was 3 . Jack was in a dance class , pre - Taekwondo and Boy Scouts . I was feeling pretty savvy , my son in a dance class ! How liberal and against the grain . He had to wear a uniform for the performance - a black suit with a spangly sparkly bow tie . He looked like a flim - flam man . I was a little confused by the attire . I wandered over to another mom to ask her about the logistics . She was a gyn - onc at the University - a transplant who was trained in California . Her son was my son 's age , her daughter the same age as mine 's . I didn 't know her well , but was itching for companionship , especially from another doc / mom . I walked up to her and took a deep breath . Wanting to be her friend . I think he was a stay at home dad , or at least had a very flexible laid back job . I had gathered that much , from observing them over the past few months at the school . I also saw them at the grocery store on Sundays , all of them , the entire family shopping together , while I was on my own doing the weekly shopping . I admired that about them . My reaction to her statement was complex . I was awed that she gave up those duties to her husband , and also jealous that he was available enough to take charge in that arena . I also felt angry at her , probably projected anger redirected away from myself . Angry at her for not knowing about the mundane details of the children 's lives , since that was my primary role in our family at the time . I was a resident , busy with work and two small children , and I would have never imagined relinquishing that knowledge or responsibility to my husband . It would not have worked , in our relationship . I am divorced , two plus years now . My ex and I get along better now that we are co - parents , and not married . He is remarried to a wonderful woman who has taken the role as stepmother to my children , not stepmonster . She calls my kids her " bonus children , " and read such a beautiful passage to them at her wedding last March , about there being room in her and their hearts for everyone , that I got teary . As my daughter Cesilly said at breakfast one day , " Mom , Dad sure does some things really well . He picks good women . He picked you , and he picked Miss Rachel . " I laughed . I agree . I love Miss Rachel , and so do my kids . I maintain a respectful distance , but will be eternally grateful for the structure and emotional support she provides to their household . My marriage issues are water under the bridge . But there was definitely a large gap in childcare division back then , me taking on most of it . I don 't think this is uncommon , especially when the children are young . My primary reason for writing this blog is about roles and delegations in marriage , traditional and otherwise . Did I have any right for feeling judgmental about the gyn / onc 's lack of knowledge about her son 's dance outfit for the recital ? Or was it all a reflection of my own situation ? Would I have reacted the same way if she were a man , and he didn 't know ? I could not have imagined approaching any father at the pancake breakfast to ask about dance recital outfits . Part of my frustration in my own marriage was the one - sidedness of it all - I saw other friends whose husbands were much more involved in the day to day of the kid 's lives . I take some responsibility for this , in retrospect . If I had a stay - at - home dad back then , and not a physician husband , would it have been so weird to me that she had no clue ? My kids have moved on to two different schools since that pancake breakfast . The gyn / onc and I earnestly tried to make some play dates , but I am sure the readers in medicine can guess how that worked out - busy lives move forward without much room for pause . I last saw the gyn / onc a couple of years ago at the grocery store . She was expressing frustration with her academic career , the challenges of it , and I listened sympathetically . Told her about Mothers In Medicine , it being such a great outlet and community for me . I haven 't seen her since . I sometimes wonder if she is still at the University , or if she has found another job . I hope she is happy in her career and life . I don 't feel as judgmental of her now as I did back then . Maybe that speaks well of where I am now in life . I guess it ultimately takes a working balance in a relationship to make it all work , no matter how the roles play out in the end . As long as everyone is happy and on the same page , that is what matters more than individual responsibility . I am curious to hear about how other women , all women - working and stay - at - home , negotiate these treacherous waters in their relationships . sometimes harried Intern with lots of patients , experiencing lots of sign out and cross - covering . Now I 'm the Intern with the baby and husband who you look at and say " wow , I just don 't know how you do it , that 's soo much ! " while you run out to your weekly exercise class while I the one with the mommy pouch that won 't allow me to wear the cute new fashion trends ( who am I kidding , I can 't even afford those trends ) and the hair that needs to be done . I 'm the stressed Intern with the significant student loan debt and monthly loan payments . I don 't tell you that if I made just a tiny bit less I 'd qualify for public welfare benefits . I 'm the one with the job that matters so much that I constantly check and recheck my orders . It hit me hard Day 1 , I write the orders and they get done . I get the pages and notifications and make used to be you , the Medical Student , but now I 'm the Intern , I 'm Doctor Bee . I used to be scared but not this scared . I used to be tired but not this tired . I used to be happy , but not this happy ( in a wickedly complex , exhilarating yet scary all while being fulfilled kind of way ) . Sometimes I am so envious of you , but more often than not , I 'm happy to be exactly where I am . Posted by I say yes . And I say this as someone who will be working on Black Friday . And I worked most holidays during residency without complaining . Before I had kids , I actually offered to work holidays so that other people who had family in the area ( I didn 't ) could be with them . After I had kids , I still worked most holidays without complaining . The only time I ever asked for preference was when I discovered a couple of weeks before the fact that our daycare was closed for two weeks for the Christmas holidays , and there were just a couple of days when my husband couldn 't get out of work , and our usual babysitter was out of town . Basically , I had no options , and my program was super nice about accommodating me , so I appreciated that . I can see how one might argue against this . After all , just because you don 't have kids , it doesn 't mean you have no family . And while I agree with this , I do have a few arguments for why I think people with kids should get preference : Maybe if someone has a big family Christmas event every year that means the world to them and it 's a thousand miles away so they have to take off several days to go . . . well , fine . But frankly , I don 't think that many adults feel that way . Most probably appreciate having work as an excuse to get out of the Christmas events . I am a 2nd year Peds resident in a grueling program , and I have 10 month old baby . N ' er the twain shall meet . But they did and they are , and that is why I am burnt is be a mom . I don 't think I want to be a doctor anymore , but I can 't decipher between not wanting to be a resident anymore vs not wanting to be a doctor anymore . Oh , and I 'm 300k in debt . So I can 't quit . But I want to . I 'm away from my son so much sometimes I forget what he feels like . I 'm hanging on here but the thread is stretching thin . I envision , Anyone been in this predicament ? Any suggestions ? I love this online community and often read it while at work or right before going to bed to check in with all you fabulous other women doing the combo of medicine and parenthood . I love to read . I have ever since I was a kid . Obviously , I don 't have as much time to read these days as I used to , but I 've read a good number of books this year . I 've found if you really like doing something , you can always make time for it . Back when I was a mother of one , I used to get most of my books from the library . I used to enjoy browsing through the shelves and seeing what appealed to me . Now that I have a toddler , I haven 't been able to make time for that , plus I 'm terrified of her destroying a library book . So I haven 't been to the library in a while . When we arrived , my older daughter Mel was thrilled to discover that there was a train set for her to play with ( because you don 't actually go to the library to look at BOOKS ) . She started playing with it while I flipped through books with my toddler . I must have turned away for , oh , sixty seconds . . . . and the entire train set had been dismantled ! Except she wasn 't quite done rebuilding by the time she got bored . I think it ended up being more complicated than she thought it would be to fit everything together , and she couldn 't do it . She went about ten feet away to the young readers section and started pulling out books . " I 'm going to read these ! " she announced . Except about ten minutes later , a family of three came into the children 's area . It was a mom , a dad , and a girl of about three or four . The mom looked at the area where I was sitting with my kids , where we had a few discarded books strewn about ( which I was TOTALLY going to pick up when we were done ) , and says , " Oh my god , what happened here ? " Then the couple starts discussing what a travesty this is . The dad especially seems really upset that the train set has been dismantled . He actually sits down and starts grumbling to himself while attempting to put it back together . And I hear the mom say loudly to him , " Can you believe this ? I 'd like to shame her into cleaning it up ! " Now you don 't have to believe me , but I was TOTALLY going to make Mel clean it up before we left . I mean , I was still right there . And when I 've got two small kids with me all by myself , it 's not the easiest thing to not leave a tornado behind you everywhere you go . Even if I wanted to , I couldn 't have put that train set back together without both my kids vanishing on me . And to be honest , they didn 't even know it was me who made that mess in the first place . I fully expected them to come up to me eventually and confront me , but apparently , they just wanted to passive aggressively talk about me behind my back . Still , it upset me , so they did their job . Is it possible for me to bring my kids to the library without some library patron yelling at me and making me feel like never coming back ? I 'm a long time reader / asker and I 've got another question for you guys . I 'm an M3 with a 2 1 / 2 year old and am about 5 weeks pregnant with baby number 2 . EDD around early July . I had six months off with my first baby and really would have enjoyed having more time . I 'm a crunchy kind of mama ( attachment parenting , breastfeeding , etc ) and I know how I feel when my baby is new and tiny , and I 'm certain I 'll want lots of time with this baby too . I 'm not sure what I want to do , but right now Emergency Medicine and Internal Medicine are my top two , and we live in the south and I have no Ivy League or academia dreams , so no seriously competitive residencies . Preclinical grades are average , Step 1 was above average , but not shockingly awesome . I don 't have any research done yet , and honestly , think that the year would provide some time to boost that aspect of my resume ( in addition to making connections in EM , since we don 't have much exposure there as M3 's ) . I also think I 'll be a much , much better intern with a 2 year old than a 1 year old ( and I know , because I have been there ! ) At my school , M4 's essentially have 5 months off , but I 'd like more time . I was at a Halloween party at the kids school on Wednesday , opening sticker packets for a craft . I noticed a few moms I didn 't know , so I wandered over to introduce myself . It came out that I was a pathologist , and later in the party one of the moms pulled me over to talk in confidence . " I really hate to bug you about work issues when you are on vacation with your kids . A significant member of my family was recently diagnosed with probable cancer . She is incredibly healthy , this is a big shock . My kids don 't know about it yet . She has had a couple of biopsies , and they can 't figure out what it is . Since you are a pathologist , can you review the slides ? Do you think we need to send it for another consult ? She is in another state being worked up . We feel so helpless and frustrated ! What do suggest we do ? " I was reminded of a case I had a couple of weeks ago . Walked into CT - a second biopsy was being attempted on a patient with probable pancreatic cancer . The radiologist was livid that he did not get the diagnosis on the first attempt . The biopsy the week previous was called " Atypical . " The tumor marker serum levels were sky high and the radiology was practically diagnostic , but they needed our help to call it and start treatment . I had a heads up in the morning , and had already reviewed the first biopsy , which was looked at by four pathologists . It was a tough case . Sometimes the clinician doesn 't get at the heart of the patient 's problem the first time the patient presents to the office . Pathology is the same way . I don 't think people realize this - they think it is all black and white . We absolutely hate to be wishy - washy , and will often gather our colleagues to try to push the call one way or the other - negative or positive . I was doing a frozen on a laryngeal biopsy on call a couple of weeks ago . It was scary and ugly but I couldn 't go beyond atypical . Called a colleague to help and he agreed , so I called the surgeon in the OR and gave him the worst kind of answer - " We don 't know . " I was thankful the next day - it turned out to be completely reactive / negative . It is much easier to look at a piece of tissue that is processed overnight than one that is quickly frozen , sliced and stained for a preliminary answer for the surgeon during the operation . I told the mom the same story I told the radiologist , in an attempt to assuage their respective fear and anger . " Sometimes it takes time to get there . When we have definitive specimen , it is easy . Once I had a case of a patient with probable lung cancer . It was exceptionally hard to get the diagnosis . The pulmonologist did two bronchoscopies with washes and biopsies , and despite seeing the mass , they missed it . The following week the patient went to CT - guided biopsy twice . Both times the radiologist missed . I happened to be on frozen sections the next week , when the patient went to open lung biopsy . It took the surgeon four frozen sections to get to the bottom of it . I kept calling it negative , and he was frustrated . ' Giz , I 'm standing here staring right at it . Don 't tell me you haven 't got good specimen . ' He was speaking to me on the intercom in the OR , I was on the phone by the microscope in the gross room staring at the tissue . He could see the tumor , as did the pulmonologist and radiologist , but he wasn 't grabbing tumor , just reaction around it . He finally got it on the fourth piece of tissue he sent . " That case was an exception - we can usually diagnose the patient more rapidly . But sometimes it takes time . I love the term my partner used once to help me . She calls it " Evolution of Diagnosis . " I was particularly upset about a muddy specimen . She said , " Gizabeth , our field requires patience . It 's not always clear from the get go . It 's not a failure on our part if we can 't call it right away . Don 't internalize it . " In psychiatry they call this onion skinning . Peeling the layers away to get to the meat , or the psyche . The diagnosis . The answer . Some onions have thicker skins than others . I reassured the mom that the doctors would most likely get her family member 's diagnosis soon , and gave her my name and number if she had any questions . Assured her that most pathologists are trained well enough to recognize when they are in their comfort zone , which is 95 % of the time , and when they need to send something away to an expert . I also shared that my kids and I recently lost my mother - in - law , their Nana , to cancer . Told her about the poem my daughter wrote and read at the funeral . Empathized about how hard it was for kids to experience loss of that magnitude - mine had to at a much younger age than I ever did . She thanked me and we served orange ice cream punch . She and her family are in our thoughts . The radiologist got good pancreas specimen on his second attempt , and I was able to give a definitive diagnosis to the surgeon the next day so they could cancel the open biopsy and the oncologist could start treatment for the patient . A lot of times our frustrations and anger , as clinicians and family members , are an expression of the emotion that we have surrounding the stress of getting an answer to alleviate the fear of the unknown for a fellow human being or loved one . When you can step back and see that objectively , it 's a lot easier to let go of it all and focus on the job . Skinning the onion . Which is not generally a process that can be performed without burning , stinging and tears . But the answer is usually well worth the effort . Last summer , I was enjoying a relatively smooth second pregnancy despite my " advanced maternal age . " It was a warm , sunny Sunday afternoon , closing a ( miraculous ) full weekend off of clinical shifts . I lay down to take a little nap ; my then - two - year - old daughter climbed into bed next to me . Suddenly - life changed . I felt a gush of fluid , and knew that I was either bleeding or had broken my water . To my dismay , it was blood . A lot of blood . At that moment , I made the transition that all doctors will make at some point in their life , but which we all fear : from physician to patient . I was now G2P1 , EGA 31w2d , with a spontaneous abruption , praying to feel the baby move . I had no history of trauma , no cocaine use , no history of bleeding disorders . My husband ( who was , luckily , at home ) scooped up our daughter and me and drove at what felt like 100mph to the hospital . I sobbed in fear the whole way . Thank god , on arrival to the hospital , our little one had a healthy heart rate . But I was still bleeding , and contracting , and had some cervical dilation . What followed : 8 long hours of being NPO in fear that I 'd need an emergency C - section . A long discussion with the NICU fellow about prognosis if my little one needed to be delivered that night . An admission to the labor & delivery floor " just to watch . " Then a week in the hospital . Then 2 months on bedrest . No one knew why I had spontaneously abrupted , and therefore no one could say if or when the abruption would recur . Although no large clot had been visualized on my ultrasound , that didn 't mean that my placenta was okay . I was a nervous wreck , hoping my little one would gestate until he was big enough to avoid the NICU . Thank goodness , nothing happened over those long 2 months . I had occasional contractions , occasional spotting , no bright red bleeding . And 1 week shy of my due date , my son was born , small but healthy . And I was healthy . I realize how incredibly lucky I am , and how much tougher things could be . Still - it was the scariest two months of my life . And it has changed my way of doctoring . I walked away from this experience with 5 major lessons for my own practice of doctoring . 1 . Empathize with patients ' and families ' anxiety . I now understand why people over - interpret their symptoms . I get why the patient with a history of CABG comes back to the ED every week for twinges of chest pain . ( " What if ? . . . . Last time … I don 't want to be home alone … . " ) Often , my primary role as a doctor in the emergency department is to assuage this anxiety , especially if patients have had a long wait prior to being dispo ' ed . I am a physician , and understand medicine ! But I am not an ob / gyn , and have been out of residency for more than a few years . The only abruption I saw during my training resulted in a stillbirth , so had no practical experience in this diagnosis . Scarier yet , even among my ob / gyn 's group , management of moderate abruptions differed . This was scary . Luckily my personal physician was stellar at making me feel comfortable both with the lack of an evidence base , and with the recommendations she made . 3 . Don 't be offended when patients ask for their personal physician when they present to the ED . In a moment of fear , you want someone you can trust . I was lucky that my personal ob / gyn was on call the day of my abruption . I 'm not sure how I would have responded to non - evidence - based recommendations had they come from someone other than her . I left the hospital not understanding exactly what " bedrest " consisted of , and how much I could / could not do , and what would / would not increase my chances of doing well . I think this was because no one really knows the right answer ! Still , not knowing was very tough for me at first , as I was scared stiff of re - aggravating the abruption . I now try to be as clear as possible with my patients about what their instructions mean . ( What is " weight bearing as tolerated " ? When can they stop taking Motrin ? At what point should they return to the ED or their PCP ? ) … . This often involves rewriting or augmenting our computerized discharge instructions , of course . Being sick is scary . And I wasn 't even physically sick - I was more worried about my fetus ! I can only imagine how difficult life must be for my patients with limited support systems , no money , and fear of losing their job if they stay out of work . I know how tough it is for people to ask for help , but I encourage them to do so , for their own sake . 5b . Encourage the exploration of online support groups - Especially for chronic conditions , or diseases with little evidence base , the online community is a godsend . For me , it was my only " good " source of information ( although it was also a source of fear , if I didn 't triage sources well ) . Heck , think of how important mothersinmedicine . com is for all of us ! Of course , I don 't think that I was non - empathetic at baseline . I am , honestly , one of those people who always wants to be liked . But now I try to listen more . I try to ask what patients are scared of . I try to reassure more , and to include patients ' families and social supports . I try to give clearer indications of " if / then " and " what if " scenarios : e . g . " I don 't think you 're having a stroke , but here are the things to come back for , and here is what I think is going on " . I now try to explicitly acknowledge patients ' and families ' fear , and encourage my patients to turn that fear to good service : to use it to increase their engagement with their families , the online patient community , and their own bodies . Most of all , I am now actively researching ways to use technology to facilitate patient engagement with their own health . I don 't want this message to stop with me . I welcome thoughts , comments , or partnership in so doing ! Emergencymom is an academic emergency physician and public health researcher on the East Coast . She is proud mother of 2 ( aged 4 & 1 ) , and wife of a small - business - owner . Her work - home balance is precarious , but generally enjoyable . She still can 't believe that she gets to do research for half her work - week ! She welcomes suggestions on how to get 4 - year - olds to stop whining , how to have dinner cook itself , and how to not be perenially 1 hour shy of a good night 's sleep . Hi MiM , When I had my first son I read a lot and had all sorts of plans forhow it would go and what type of mother I would be . Co - sleeping didnot fit into that plan . I knew that the American Academy ofPediatrics did not recommend co - sleeping and that it may increase therisk of SIDS . So into the crib he went . I didn 't intend to co - sleepwith my second son either , but once my sleepless baby boy arrived Iended up doing whatever worked to get the most sleep . He naps in hiscrib or bassinet but spends a good portion of the night in bed withme . I still worry about safety risks and I definitely worry about theprocess of breaking this habit at some point . My question is , aseducated physicians and mothers , how many of you have opted toco - sleep with your children and for how long ? How do those of you inpediatrics or family medicine address this with your patients ? I ' mnot really looking for advice necessarily , but I think this is aninteresting discussion point . I found out after talking to other momsthat this is a lot more common than I realized ! This may be somewhatregional also . I live near a very liberal , somewhat " hippy " townwhere baby - wearing , cloth diapering , and making your own baby food areoften the norm . I am a PA in dermatology and the mother of 2 boys - 22 months and 5weeks old . I love following MiM ! E There are lots of theories as to why women earn so much less than men . Some people say it 's because women gravitate toward fields that tend to pay less . But even if you take this into account , women still earn less than men in the exact same job . The difference does seem to be related to having kids . Apparently , men with children earn about 2 % more on average than men without children , whereas women with children earn about 2 . 5 % less than women without children . Women are also more likely to leave the work force for longer periods of time , which further suppresses their earnings . As a working mom , I really get this . How could I ask for more money when I just took a 12 week maternity leave ? How could I ask for more money when I just had to take sick days for a GI bug I caught from my kids ? How could I ask for more money when that might make me feel obligated to take on more responsibilities , which I just can 't handle right now ? Whoa . Maybe she shouldn 't be having children ? I should mention that , although I hardly know this intern at all , I like her and I am worried about this plan for what I think are obvious reasons . Children get sick . Patients crash , usually right as you are about to leave . Daycare closes early on Friday for " Teacher In - service " ( like every month it seems ) . Sitters have " things come up " . And what about weekends ? My reaction to her situation wasn 't that she shouldn 't be having children , but that she needed a nanny to get her though a tough few years . I made what I hoped was a polite excuse and left the conversation . I was more fortunate than this intern in both the length of my maternity leave and that I had family that could move in with when my daughter was born , but without those two variables my situation wouldn 't have appeared that different . I wondered if the same sort of judgement would be passed on me if my early months and years of motherhood were observed by similarly minded outsiders - even now as my mother lived with us for the last two weeks while I was on the inpatient ward rotation . I don 't feel bad about how I raised my daughter when I was a resident , I feel grateful to my mother and mother - in - law . But I guess we all have different comfort levels for having other people participate in the care and raising of our children . I 've had a lot of help with mine and , for the record , I 've been pretty happy with the outcome so far . Posted by I dropped Zo off at his first day of daycare . We finally found a place that we loved with enough diversity so that our little chocolate chip wouldn 't be the only little brown boy in the institution . By word of mouth , we found a quaint cottage - like Spanish immersion preschool run by super cute ladies from Venezuela and Mexico . He loved it during our tour and even attempted to hop out of my arms into the Director 's arms . He was so smitten that I ignored the many dripping noses of the cute 1 year old kiddos who would be in his future class . morning I dropped him off around 8 : 45am . And he was one of the drippy - nosed children . For the last 3 days he has been a sneezing , coughing fussy fuss - face . Top it off with a set of 12 month old immunizations and both parents with sore throats and sneezing and you have entered our purgatory . I have flushed and aspirated his nose so many times that he anticipates what is coming and gets his wail ready . He has woken up so many times in the past few nights that I haven 't been able to lay down for more than 5 minutes without hearing his coughing and whimpering . I can 't wait for this cold to be over so that we can officially begin sleep training him . Add a hectic Ward month with long nights and early mornings and all I can say is that I am so tired . I am so very tired . As I walked out , painted smile on my face , holding back the tears welling up in my eyes , a cute cherubic girl smiled at me and motioned for me to hold her hand . The Director hurriedly waved to one of the teachers so that she could wipe away the thick yellow - green goo running from her nose , sliding down her face . The teacher laughed nervously , I shrugged knowingly . I have been around enough children to know clear , yellow , and green ooze is somewhat of a rite of passage . Thus began Day 1 of our son exposing others to his germs and his classmates exposing him to theirs . Here 's to a robust immune system ! Here 's to my growing Little Man ! Posted by husband with " action items " - - basically , the 21st - century Honey - Do list . Despite all of that , I have found myself in a situation that I never planned for . Recently , I was diagnosed with a chronic illness . Without getting too specific , it will impact how I do my job , but won 't prevent me from doing it . Think of something along the lines of Crohn 's disease , Type 1 DM , or lupus . I have to take medication , monitor my symptoms , and go to doctors appointments . I might have to take a 5 minute break during cases that last more than 6 hours . But , my doctors and I see no reason why I cannot continue to provide excellent care to patients . I 'm worry about where my disease will take me . . . What complications are in store ? How will I handle it on those days when I feel really bad ? Why isn 't there a cure for this thing , yet ? But , what I 'm worrying about most are the practical things . . . legal protections , financial expenses , keeping insurance , dealing with a chronic illness and surgical residency through something like this before ? Or seen someone go through it ? 1 . What and how do I tell my co - residents ? My attendings ? My program is hard and the hours are very long ( 80 hour workweek , what ? ? ) , but it 's actually not all that malignant . I know my coresidents and attendings will prioritize my health and giving me 10 minutes of self - care time during a 15 - hour workday probably won 't be a big deal . . . But , what I really worry about is the loss of opportunities . Like , if one of my attendings wants a resident to help with a cool research project , but they don 't ask me , reasoning that the extra work will be too burdensome with my illness . Same thing if a good case comes in late in the evening . . . what if they don 't ask me to stay because of my illness ? Will all the credibility I 've built up as a hard - working , excellent resident slowly be eroded by missed opportunities ? 2 . How do I handle this with future employers , when I apply to fellowships and ultimately attending jobs ? Am 3 . How can my husband and I protect ourselves financially from the risks of my chronic illness ? He works full - time in a well - paying field . . . though his salary is about I 'm not that surprised . My girls have been vomiting all weekend . Not just vomiting , epic vomits . Like the kind where they vomit a lot and you think , " Wow . " Then they vomit again . And then a third time . And now it 's on the couch , the carpet , the TV , basically everywhere in a 50 foot radius . And then just when you think this may never end , they burst into tears , because vomiting makes kids cry . And they want a hug . But they 're freaking covered in vomit . I mean , you have to hug them , of course , but you have to at least attempt to strip off some of those vomit - soaked clothes first . I get this horrible sense of foreboding , but I somehow manage to fall back into a restless sleep and wake up later with my alarm . I still feel really nauseous and my stomach kind of hurts . But I get up and force myself to take a shower . The living room still sort of smells like vomit . I swear , we cleaned it . I went to the drug store and asked the clerk what would get out baby vomit from the carpet and I got a bottle of Woolite . But I don 't know , maybe there 's a patch of vomit somewhere that we missed . Probably there is . There was just so much of it . If anything could have made me feel less like eating breakfast , it 's walking into a living room that smells like vomit . Thank God both kids are already awake . I feel like if I have to argue with anyone or do anything unexpected today , I will break down . The daycare serves breakfast till 8AM , and I think I 'm going to make it . We arrive and as I bring my littlest into the toddler room , I see a bunch of one - year - olds sitting around the table with little bowls of food . But I don 't see the food cart . " Can she still get breakfast ? " I ask . " Is it possible for her to get any food at all ? " I beg . " She didn 't want to eat before we left . " And keep in mind , if you tell me " no , " I may vomit on you . I drive to work . I 'm really nauseous now . I wonder if I could throw up . I don 't feel like vomiting is imminent . Like I don 't think I 'm going to have to pull over and yak all over the road . If I 'm not actively vomiting , I 'm well enough to work . Period . In the hospital , I make a beeline for the bathroom . My stomach is cramping and I feel like I 'm in labor with a vomit - baby . I lean over the toilet but nothing comes right away . It 's generally easier to birth a vomit - baby than an actual baby , but it 's just not coming . Someone knocks on the door , which totally disturbs my concentration . I can 't vomit with someone standing right outside the door ! ! I go upstairs and pick up my patient list . It isn 't too long . Maybe I can get through it fast . Hopefully nobody will talk to me . I go to the bathroom . Vomit success ! ! ! But it 's not that much . Maybe my symptoms are all psychosomatic , because I watched both my kids throwing up . No , I should probably just call in sick . The world won 't come to an end . It 's not fair to anyone for me to be working in this condition . I leave the bathroom and just stand there , debating what I should do . My boss walks by and I call his name . " Hey , " I say . " Um , " I say . " My girls have been throwing up all weekend and I just threw up . So . . . I guess I should probably go home . " I drive home . Maybe I 'm not that sick . Maybe I should have just stayed and worked . But then I could have given this awful bug to everyone I work with . I mean , it benefits the hospital if they don 't have half the staff out with a stomach flu . I 'm sure they 'd rather lose me for a day than have that happen . At home , I try to vomit in the toilet . I can 't . Maybe I should have had a bigger dinner last night . How can I be home if I 'm not actively vomiting ? ? Now everyone is going to think I 'm an unreliable mom . My husband comes into the bathroom while I 'm sitting on the floor by the toilet . " Maybe I should have worked today , " I say . My Life has been a roller coaster for the last couple of months . I don 't mean a nice Disney coaster either , I 'm talking about Cedar Point 120 mph craziness . Two partners have taken maternity leave this year and I have done my best to work extra and be supportive , but I think this year is taking its toll on me . The additional roller coaster involved being offered the opportunity of a life time this summer . I was scheduled to travel internationally for 3 weeks . All expenses paid . Patients were rescheduled , passports obtained and childcare was arranged . I was SOOOO excited . Then the day before departure , the trip was canceled . Somewhere during these crazy few months I started having these crazy fantasies : what if I had to have emergency surgery ? Wouldn 't that be AWESOME . I could take a week off to recover . No one could bother me . Now , before those of you who know me IRL have me admitted to the psych ward , I in no way ever wanted to hurt myself . Or have anything really wrong with me . No crying spells , no anxiety attacks . I just keep dreaming of having an unruptured ectopic . Serious enough for surgery and a week off , but not life threatening or overly painful . We go back to fully being staffed next week , and I have scheduled myself some down time to re - energize . I have been focusing on that and already feel much better . Hopeful to be back to my peppy self soon . Anyone else ever get so busy and stressed out that they start imagining how awesome it would be to have appendicitis ? Posted by fellowship on a nearly daily basis . I can 't imagine leaving baby boy for 10 - 12 hours a day . I chose to do a fellowship for the potential for a better I have a lot going on . I am a few months into my internship . I am applying for obstetrics residency again . I just submitted four abstracts to two conferences , I just presented at one conference and will be a presenter at another , and there is a lot going on , women 's health wise , in politics and in the news . I joined Facebook when I got accepted to medical school . My incoming class started a Facebook group and used it for introductions and announcements . I 'd never used MySpace . I started off Facebook with a bang , since our class had almost 250 members in it , many of whom were young whippersnappers used to this social media stuff . Now , of course , I 'm a pro , and have been recently accused of being a " Facebook slut " because I have so many " friends . " They come from many , many different walks of life . Definitely not all medical people , and not all mainstream . So , one of my non medical friends ( someone I know from an online mothering support group from years back ) posted about some symptoms she found troubling . She was suddenly very dizzy - the room was spinning , and her vision and balance were off . Not really nauseous , no other significant symptoms , and I know she doesn 't have a significant medical history and she said she wasn 't on any medications . She said - anyone have any idea what could be causing this ? " Hmm , sounds like vestibular neuritis , " I thought . I posted " Most likely vestibular neuritis - sorry : ( " I purposely said " most likely " because hey , who knows , and I didn 't want to sound like a know it all . I threw in the frowny face to seem more friendly and less know it all - y , too . I wasn 't so perturbed by the people posting guesses about low blood sugar or low blood pressure , even though those are technically more likely to cause lightheadedness than dizziness . I know that distinction can be difficult even for a trained medical professional . Or a patient describing symptoms , for that matter . I made a snarky follow up comment about how it was definitely sporns and she should drink some OJ . I didn 't mention that I was a doctor and would you people just ! listen ! and stop making dumb suggestions for non existent blood tests or very unlikely etiologies . Especially since I had twice , nicely , suggested a likely cause that they could have googled . Maybe that would have been better than the sporns comment , I don 't know . I knew I wasn 't fit for further commenting when someone posted how it was " Vertigo . OR an inner ear infection " and I wanted to write in all caps " VERTIGO IS A SYMPTOM , NOT A DIAGNOSIS ! SO , NOT " OR " ! ! AND INNER EAR INFECTION WITH VERTIGO = VESTIBULAR NEURITIS ! ! " Mothers in Medicine is a group blog by physician - mothers , writing about the unique challenges and joys of tending to two distinct patient populations , both of whom can be quite demanding . We are on call every . single . day . Hi ! I am so excited to join this community . I have been following since applying to medical school 6 years ago and now , med school and 2 kid . . . Howdy wonderful MIM community ! I am excited to have joined MIM as a regular contributor this year ! I 'm TXgal , a name fitting not only bec . . . No content of this blog should be taken as medical advice . Any references to patients have been altered to maintain confidentiality . Content and links on personal blogs listed on the blogroll are not vetted or monitored and do not represent endorsements by Mothers in Medicine .

We have been married for 24 years . We have 5 kids : Josh , Jacki , Jaycee , Amberly & Elizabeth . We also have 5 grandchildren : Ezequiel , Tatiyana , Anaya , Zemicha & Zariah . Zariah is in heaven watching over us for now . We have 5 tiny Chihuahua 's , a cat with a never ending supply of kittens and a never ending line of strays brought home by the little girls . We are doing our best to muddle through on this rollercoaster called life ! ! Leslie at Leslie McCleery Photography is having a contest and the winner gets a photo shoot . I don 't know her personally , but I did look at her pictures and they are great . So those of you in Utah go take a look here and enter . Make sure you message her and let her know I sent you so I can get another entry too ! ! I was the lucky number chosen for this prize from Hailey at Be Serious . We gave it a try tonight and it is WONDERFUL ! ! ! ! ! We used it to dip chicken and wontons in and I can 't think of anything I have liked better . So go here and order some . You wont be sorry ! ! ! Thanks HaileyI also FINALLY figured out the link thing , thanks to all the people who helped my dumb ass figure it out ! ! ! ! Welcome to Not Me ! Monday ! This blog carnival was created by MckMama . You can head over to her blog to read what she and everyone else have not been doing this week . I did not stay home sick to read the new V . C . Andrews book . I did not have to switch cell phone service because Qwest was not sold to Verizon . And since I didn 't need a new phone I did not buy all of us the new Blackberry , just different colors . I will not need major help trying to figure out how to use the thing . I did not run outside in the snow in barefeet to grab an address out of my truck , and since the neighbors dog would never poop on my lawn , I did not step in it . EWWWWWWW ! ! ! I did not get my first non - family follower . Yeah Tammy ! ! ! ! ! I LOVE her blog ! I did not tell my kids I had an errand to run so I could go to lunch with a friend WITHOUT them . That would be very selfish and rude ! I did not ask several stores in my town to donate things for giveaways . And there will not be some really fun ones coming up ! I did not change Trey 's diaper a little too slow and end up with poop all over him , the blanket , the floor . . . . . Seems it wasn 't my poop week ! I did not freak the hell out when Libby started screaming Sunday morning because she thought she was dying from a bloody nose and came in my room gushing blood everywhere . I did not get just a little worried when it wouldn 't stop for a good 10 minutes . I did not send Amber to school when she was complaining of a tummy ache because I did not think she was faking . The school did not have to call and have her picked up when she got sick . Am I a rotten mother or what ? ? ? I did not laugh at Amber when she bent over and asked her belly what it wanted to eat and then stood up and helped her belly button say " Mac & Cheese " . I am not totally amazed at some of the things that come out of her mouth . Well that is pretty much what I didn 't do this week . How about you ? ? ? Trey is two months old and I can 't believe how strong he is . When we put him down for tummy time he " army crawls " across his play mat . He also rolls all the way over and has for a couple weeks now and that was quite a surprise the first time he did it and about fell off the couch . He " talks " and laughs all the time and if someone will talk back with him he can go on for hours ~ ~ to cute ! ! ! He has held his head up since the day he was born and he is just getting so dang cute looking around and taking everything around him in . He is so aware of everything ! ! He has also learned how to copy someone when they stick their tongue out at him and he does it right back over and over so we know it isn 't just a fluke when it happens . And then today , just when we thought he was slowing down , he got his first tooth ~ ~ 2 months old and getting teeth . This kid is growing up way to fast ! ! Here is his new picture . Daddy is a die hard Yankee 's fan so it only makes sense that Trey is too ! ( Well that and he can 't dress himself yet so he wears what mommy & daddy want ) I remember growing up in a town where everyone knew everyone and everyone knew your business ! If you were doing something wrong and the guy down the street saw you , he would take you home and let your dad kick your butt , no need for police . If you acted up in school your mom wanted them to punish you and then she would do it again when you got home . I remember at 16 hitch hiking home after working in the cherry processing plant at midnight and not being afraid of who was going to pick us up . I remember hanging out in the park or the " haunted mill " all night and the only thing ( besides ghosts ) we had to be afraid of was our parents if they found out we were not where we were suppose to be . Now I don 't even dare let my little girls sleep out in the backyard , next to the house , with my bedroom window open . What a crazy damn world it has become . Good Lord , I miss the good old days , but now it goes something like this : Scenario : Johnny and Mark get into a fistfight after school . 1960 - Crowd gathers . Mark wins . Johnny and Mark shake hands and end up friends . 2008 - Police are called , SWAT team arrives and arrests Johnny and Mark . Mobiles with video of fight confiscated as evidence . They are charged with assault , Protective Orders are taken out and both are suspended even though Johnny started it . Diversionary conferences and parent meetings conducted . Video shown on 6 Internet sites . Scenario : Billy breaks a window in his neighbor 's car and his Dad gives him a whipping with his belt and makes him pay for it with his allowance . 1960 - Billy is more careful next time , grows up normal , goes to college , and becomes a successful businessman . 2008 - Billy 's dad is arrested for child abuse . Billy is removed to foster care and joins a gang . Psychologist tells Billy 's sister that she remembers being abused herself and their dad goes to prison . Billy 's mom has an affair with the psychologist . Psychologist gets a promotion . Scenario : Mark , a college student , brings cigarettes to school . 1960 - Mark shares a smoke with the school princiPosted by A few weeks ago I got an email with this story someone wrote about being " drugged in their childhood " in it . I have added a couple things to make more of a point in my life , but most of it was already just perfect ! ! With over 100 overdoses in my community in the last year from heroin and / or oxycontin and a son who is a heroin addict it really hits home . I wish we still had the option of " drugging " our children like my parents did when I was young without DCFS stepping in and calling it abuse . " The other day , someone at a store in our town was talking about a Methamphetamine lab had been found in an old farmhouse in the county and she asked me a rhetorical question , " Why didn 't we have a drug problem when you and I were growing up ? " I replied I had a drug problem when I was young . I was drug to church on Sunday morning . I was drug to church for weddings and funerals ; I was drug to family reunions , community socials no matter the weather , county fairs , deer hunting camp , Easter at Gramma 's with the whole family and school carnivals . I was drug by my ears when I was disrespectful to adults . I was also drug to the woodshed when I disobeyed my parents , told a lie , stole a candy bar , brought home a bad report card , did not speak with respect , spoke ill of an adult or if I didn 't put forth my best effort in everything that was asked of me . I was drug to the kitchen sink to have my mouth washed out with soap if I uttered a profanity . I was drug to pull weeds in mom 's garden and flower beds and pick vegetables and fruit with my grandparents . I was drug by the ear to show me what I had done wrong and made to do it right . I was drug to the homes of family , friends and neighbors to help out some poor soul who had no one to mow the yard , repair the clothesline , or stack some firewood , and if my mother had ever know that I took a single dime as a tip for this kindness , she would have drug me back to the woodshed . Those drugs are still in my veins and they affect my behavior in everything I do , say , or think . They are stronger than cPosted by Myspace CommentsOver at iMommy there is a super contest for a sweet Valentines ( or any time item ) . Go check it out here : http : / / www . imommyblog . com / 2009 / 02 / valentine - giveaway . html Hopefully I will have a fun giveaway like this in the next month if I can get enough interest going for it . I still can 't get the link to work out so if anyone has some simple directions to help me figure outwhat I am doing wrong I would appreciate the help . Tammy over at " Queen Size Funny Bone " wrote the most amazing thing today . It says everything I have been thinking since this crazy assed story was first reported . Go check it out and let me know what you think . http : / / queen - sized . blogspot . com / 2009 / 02 / 68 - 14 . htmlSorry I still can 't figure out the link thing so you 'll have to copy and paste . Someone had some extremely rude comments on my Myspace page about women with tattoos ( I have pictures of all of them there ) . At first I was totally offended and ready to go to war with them . Instead I decided that I really didn 't care what anyone else had to say about it . Anybody surprised by that ? I didn 't think so . My tattoos are an expression of who I am and nobody has the right to dictate what I will be except for me ! ! So haters of the world , this is my opinion and when it comes to my body , I really don 't care if you don 't like it . I got my first tattoo at a drunken biker party . I say first , because they are 100 % completely addictive . Everyone always says they will only get one . You may put it off , but someday , sometime , somewhere you will get another one . It is one of the better addictions that I have had and / or heard of . I now have upwards of 10 . All are tasteful and can be covered up if the need arises that I need them hidden . It drives me nuts when people start talking about how in 40 years we will have hundreds of old women running around with saggy tattoos . Do you really care or are you just trying one more time to make people think tattoos are only for awful , mean , bad people who will kill you if you meet them in a dark alley ? Only for drunken sailors or gangs ? Why would anyone really care if I cover my body in ink if that is what I choose to do ? If I don 't care , why should anyone else ? My opinion on it is that if my husband and I aren 't bothered by them , then it really doesn 't matter that when I am 60 I may have a whale on my leg instead of the cute little dolphin that is there now and so what if my frogs turn into dragons ? My daughter , who cries at the sight of a needle , got one of a fire helmet and dolphins to honor her father and myself . I think it was a sweet gesture . Another daughter got the name of her deceased son on her back , again a very sweet gesture . I get them for a variety of reasons , the love of pain : - ) ( jk ) , things with meanings to me , things I really like , and as the next one will be , a trPosted by Still not sure what is causing the fluid in his head to build up . The neurosurgeon told Jacki to bring him in every few days and have his head measured to make sure the fluid is not effecting his brain and to watch him close for signs of discomfort . He seems fine and is starting to " talk " all the time . Hopefully we will not have to spend anymore time up at Primary Children 's . Just knowing that Zariah died there makes it really hard to even go into the building ! Trey was admitted back into Primary Children 's today . His fever will not drop below 103 and the swelling in his soft spot is back . At this point they are sure he has Adenovirus and that is causing his fever and spewing from both ends . They don 't know , or at least haven 't figured out yet , what made the fluid retention and swelling come back . Jacki is about to lose it and I don 't really know what to do to help her . Please pray for her to be strong , for the baby to get better and have his fever go down and for the doctors to figure out what is wrong with him . Please go here : http : / / namesinthesand . blogspot . com / 2009 / 01 / zariah - lynn - etienne . htmland see the most beautiful beach with Zariah 's name written on it by the most caring and wonderful people . Carly & Sam Dudley lost their son Christian and as a tribute to him they lovingly write the angels names in the sand on their beautiful Australian beach . This one for Zariah is so precious to us words cannot describe it . Thank you Sam & Carly ! ! Welcome to Not Me ! Monday ! This blog carnival was created by MckMama . You can head over to her blog to read what she and everyone else have not been doing this week . I did not let Jaycee dye my hair bright pink , people would think I was a flamingo with that hair color . I did not stay at a Hilton Hotel this past weekend even though the rooms do not cost an arm and a leg . They do not have the super best rooms and softest pillows ever . I did not enjoy every minute of not being at the hotel and not enjoying the peace and quiet of no kids or dogs ! ! I did not spend way too much money at a " Passion Party " last weekend on things that I will not ever find a use for . Their lotions and body sprays do not smell wonderful ! ! I did not watch the stupid Grammy 's last night for 2 hours just to lust over Kid Rock for 3 minutes . I did not laugh at the fugly clothes people thought they looked good in , I would never be that rude . I did not argue with an anonymous comment poster . That would be futile and immature and I would never engage in that behavior . I do not know any secrets that I am not dying to tell . I will not go crazy before I tell someone 's secret though . I did not actually , kinda , sorta meet my first real life bloggy friend and she is not great , HI ABBY ! ! ! I did not go into the 15 item or less line with 16 items at Smith 's on Saturday ~ ~ It is not one of biggest irritations when someone else does it ! ! I did not sit on the couch all day Sunday trying to will away my headache from the night before . I did not buy a Wii after swearing we wouldn 't be getting one because nobody plays with the Nintendo , Playstation , XBox , Gameboys , etc . . . And it does not have a ton of really fun games you can get for it . I will not be found in the basement playing it . . . . EVER , so don 't look there for me if I happen to be missing ! ! So what DIDN ' T you all do last week ? ? The baby was retested for some things today . Another spinal tap and scans and everything has come back negative . They have changed his antibiotic from the pneumonia and that is the only thing that they have found that could be wrong . He is going to stay in the hospital for another night for observation and then he will be released tomorrow with Jacki watching him close for any changes in his soft spot . Thanks for all your prayers , I know I believe in religion different than most of you , but I do believe in prayer and I am sure it helped ! ! A lot of the baby 's tests have come back and have all been negative . The viral meningitis was negative , but the test for the bacterial won 't be back for a day or so . Max says he looks good and he feels they will be figuring out what is wrong soon and they will be home . It looks like it may be just a random infection and possibly some antibiotics or at the worst a shunt to fix it . I hope he is right and that is what I am focusing on for now . He has been admitted to Primary Children 's . The CAT Scan came back OK , but obviously something is wrong so they drained some of the fluid off his head and also did a spinal tap to test for meningitis and other diseases and have set up an MRI for tomorrow . They did start him on an antibiotic so if it is meningitis he will already have started the therapies for it . They have told her he may be there a long time so we are going to take up the trailer tonight and hopefully they are wrong and we will be bringing it home on the weekend . I will let everyone know when we know exactly what he has . Thanks for all the well wishes and prayers . Our sweet baby Trey was just sent to Primary Children 's Hospital today . We have been worried about a watery feeling bump in his soft spot and Jacki took him to the doctor today who told her to immediately take him to Salt Lake . This could be from many different things , from a blockage and the brain fluid can 't drain and it could be as easy as putting a shunt in to drain it , unfortunately it could also be a brain tumor or brain cancer or something horrible . We are asking everyone to pray for him to get better and be able to come home . He is such a sweet baby and I don 't know if Jacki & Max can deal with an illness or even worse again . I will post again when we know more , but in the mean time please keep him in your though . UPDATE : The doctors at Primary Children 's think Trey may have meningitis and are testing his fluids now and doing some other testing . Posted by I decided I needed a top 10 list of irritations and a top 10 reasons for frustration , just to jump on the bandwagon with everyone else : Irritations1 . No hunting season on pedophiles , sexual predators or baby rapers and no firing squads in the court rooms for when a child molester pleads guilty . Why must my tax dollars go to keeping these useless wastes of space alive and living better than I can afford ? Give that money to their victims ~ they are the ones that deserve help not the animals who preyed upon them ! 2 . Having to have a mammogram and ultrasound twice a year because I am a happy cancer survivor . Obviously I have already lost all my breasties so what on earth could make you think I want to be reminded of it twice a year by a technician with jokes I have heard a thousand times and really don 't make me feel any better about it ? There is no joke that can take my mind off the pain caused by a mammogram machine that only has tiny bits of tissue to grab onto . 3 . Having to listen to my husband 's damn dog who feels the need to whine , howl and bark when he feels he is not getting the attention he needs . 4 . People who excuse their children 's rudeness and bad behavior with a smile and shoulder shrug or some lame assed comment . Grow up and act like adults maybe they will learn from you . 5 . Having the same argument with my little girls about cleaning their room and the ridiculous excuses they make for why they can 't figure out if they take a couple minutes every day to pick up it wouldn 't get like that . 6 . Trying to find clothes styles somewhere between my daughters ' itty bitty pieces of material clothing and my mother 's polyester prison clothing that actually fit my fat ass and look half way decent . 7 . On any given day I am the only one ( so I think ) on the road that has a clue how to drive and knowing I can 't teach these complete idiots anything , except not to tailgate me and then pass me doing 110mph or I will turn my wig wags on and make you think you are getting pulled over ( only for a second , but boy is it fun to see pPosted by Welcome to Not Me ! Monday ! This blog carnival was created by MckMama . You can head over to her blog to read what she and everyone else have not been doing this week . I did not scream like a little girl when Justin 's sugar glider " crabbed " at me . I did not laugh so hard at a blog post from Redneck Mommy that I wet my pants , EWWWW - wouldn 't happen ! ! I did not know my mother in law was coming over and didn 't even comb my hair , nope that would make her think I am lazier than she thinks already . I did not spend $ 300 at the grocery store on Saturday buying pantry stock ups and junk food , knowing full and well that we had a budget to stick to , that would be very immature ! I did not eat a whole bag of potato chips when I got home from said shopping trip . I did not Let Libby have an ice cream cone AND a popsicle because she asked for it so cute , why can 't I say no to that kid ? ? ? I did not spend too much time on the computer and watching TV last night and it did not make me so tired I fell asleep at my desk today . I did not just spend the last 2 hours looking up information on sugar gliders because they are not cuter than hell and I would not be wanting to maybe get one of my own . What " didn 't " you do this past week ? ? ? There is a factory in Northern Minnesota which makes the Tickle Me Elmo toys . The toy laughs when you tickle it under the arms . Well , Lena is hired at The Tickle Me Elmo factory and she reports for her first day promptly at 8 : 00 am . The next day at 8 : 45 am there is a knock at the Personnel Manager 's door . The Foreman throws open the door and begins to rant about the new employee . . He complains that she is incredibly slow and the whole line is backing up , putting the entire production line behind schedule . The Personnel Manager decides he should see this for himself , so the 2 men march down to the factory floor . When they get there the line is so backed up that there are Tickle Me Elmo 's all over the factory floor and they 're really beginning to pile up . At the end of the line stands Lena surrounded by mountains of Tickle Me Elmo 's . She has a roll of plush red fabric and a huge bag of small marbles . The 2 men watch in amazement as she cuts a little piece of fabric , wraps it around two marbles and begins to carefully sew the little package between Elmo 's legs . The Personnel Manager bursts into laughter . After several minutes of hysterics he pulls himself together and approaches Lena . ' I 'm sorry , ' he says to her , barely able to keep a straight face , ' but I think you misunderstood the instructions I gave you yesterday . . . ' ' Your job is to give Elmo two test tickles ' . This is the funniest joke I have heard all week ! ! ! !

We have been married for 24 years . We have 5 kids : Josh , Jacki , Jaycee , Amberly & Elizabeth . We also have 5 grandchildren : Ezequiel , Tatiyana , Anaya , Zemicha & Zariah . Zariah is in heaven watching over us for now . We have 5 tiny Chihuahua 's , a cat with a never ending supply of kittens and a never ending line of strays brought home by the little girls . We are doing our best to muddle through on this rollercoaster called life ! ! Leslie at Leslie McCleery Photography is having a contest and the winner gets a photo shoot . I don 't know her personally , but I did look at her pictures and they are great . So those of you in Utah go take a look here and enter . Make sure you message her and let her know I sent you so I can get another entry too ! ! I was the lucky number chosen for this prize from Hailey at Be Serious . We gave it a try tonight and it is WONDERFUL ! ! ! ! ! We used it to dip chicken and wontons in and I can 't think of anything I have liked better . So go here and order some . You wont be sorry ! ! ! Thanks HaileyI also FINALLY figured out the link thing , thanks to all the people who helped my dumb ass figure it out ! ! ! ! Welcome to Not Me ! Monday ! This blog carnival was created by MckMama . You can head over to her blog to read what she and everyone else have not been doing this week . I did not stay home sick to read the new V . C . Andrews book . I did not have to switch cell phone service because Qwest was not sold to Verizon . And since I didn 't need a new phone I did not buy all of us the new Blackberry , just different colors . I will not need major help trying to figure out how to use the thing . I did not run outside in the snow in barefeet to grab an address out of my truck , and since the neighbors dog would never poop on my lawn , I did not step in it . EWWWWWWW ! ! ! I did not get my first non - family follower . Yeah Tammy ! ! ! ! ! I LOVE her blog ! I did not tell my kids I had an errand to run so I could go to lunch with a friend WITHOUT them . That would be very selfish and rude ! I did not ask several stores in my town to donate things for giveaways . And there will not be some really fun ones coming up ! I did not change Trey 's diaper a little too slow and end up with poop all over him , the blanket , the floor . . . . . Seems it wasn 't my poop week ! I did not freak the hell out when Libby started screaming Sunday morning because she thought she was dying from a bloody nose and came in my room gushing blood everywhere . I did not get just a little worried when it wouldn 't stop for a good 10 minutes . I did not send Amber to school when she was complaining of a tummy ache because I did not think she was faking . The school did not have to call and have her picked up when she got sick . Am I a rotten mother or what ? ? ? I did not laugh at Amber when she bent over and asked her belly what it wanted to eat and then stood up and helped her belly button say " Mac & Cheese " . I am not totally amazed at some of the things that come out of her mouth . Well that is pretty much what I didn 't do this week . How about you ? ? ? Trey is two months old and I can 't believe how strong he is . When we put him down for tummy time he " army crawls " across his play mat . He also rolls all the way over and has for a couple weeks now and that was quite a surprise the first time he did it and about fell off the couch . He " talks " and laughs all the time and if someone will talk back with him he can go on for hours ~ ~ to cute ! ! ! He has held his head up since the day he was born and he is just getting so dang cute looking around and taking everything around him in . He is so aware of everything ! ! He has also learned how to copy someone when they stick their tongue out at him and he does it right back over and over so we know it isn 't just a fluke when it happens . And then today , just when we thought he was slowing down , he got his first tooth ~ ~ 2 months old and getting teeth . This kid is growing up way to fast ! ! Here is his new picture . Daddy is a die hard Yankee 's fan so it only makes sense that Trey is too ! ( Well that and he can 't dress himself yet so he wears what mommy & daddy want ) I remember growing up in a town where everyone knew everyone and everyone knew your business ! If you were doing something wrong and the guy down the street saw you , he would take you home and let your dad kick your butt , no need for police . If you acted up in school your mom wanted them to punish you and then she would do it again when you got home . I remember at 16 hitch hiking home after working in the cherry processing plant at midnight and not being afraid of who was going to pick us up . I remember hanging out in the park or the " haunted mill " all night and the only thing ( besides ghosts ) we had to be afraid of was our parents if they found out we were not where we were suppose to be . Now I don 't even dare let my little girls sleep out in the backyard , next to the house , with my bedroom window open . What a crazy damn world it has become . Good Lord , I miss the good old days , but now it goes something like this : Scenario : Johnny and Mark get into a fistfight after school . 1960 - Crowd gathers . Mark wins . Johnny and Mark shake hands and end up friends . 2008 - Police are called , SWAT team arrives and arrests Johnny and Mark . Mobiles with video of fight confiscated as evidence . They are charged with assault , Protective Orders are taken out and both are suspended even though Johnny started it . Diversionary conferences and parent meetings conducted . Video shown on 6 Internet sites . Scenario : Billy breaks a window in his neighbor 's car and his Dad gives him a whipping with his belt and makes him pay for it with his allowance . 1960 - Billy is more careful next time , grows up normal , goes to college , and becomes a successful businessman . 2008 - Billy 's dad is arrested for child abuse . Billy is removed to foster care and joins a gang . Psychologist tells Billy 's sister that she remembers being abused herself and their dad goes to prison . Billy 's mom has an affair with the psychologist . Psychologist gets a promotion . Scenario : Mark , a college student , brings cigarettes to school . 1960 - Mark shares a smoke with the school princiPosted by A few weeks ago I got an email with this story someone wrote about being " drugged in their childhood " in it . I have added a couple things to make more of a point in my life , but most of it was already just perfect ! ! With over 100 overdoses in my community in the last year from heroin and / or oxycontin and a son who is a heroin addict it really hits home . I wish we still had the option of " drugging " our children like my parents did when I was young without DCFS stepping in and calling it abuse . " The other day , someone at a store in our town was talking about a Methamphetamine lab had been found in an old farmhouse in the county and she asked me a rhetorical question , " Why didn 't we have a drug problem when you and I were growing up ? " I replied I had a drug problem when I was young . I was drug to church on Sunday morning . I was drug to church for weddings and funerals ; I was drug to family reunions , community socials no matter the weather , county fairs , deer hunting camp , Easter at Gramma 's with the whole family and school carnivals . I was drug by my ears when I was disrespectful to adults . I was also drug to the woodshed when I disobeyed my parents , told a lie , stole a candy bar , brought home a bad report card , did not speak with respect , spoke ill of an adult or if I didn 't put forth my best effort in everything that was asked of me . I was drug to the kitchen sink to have my mouth washed out with soap if I uttered a profanity . I was drug to pull weeds in mom 's garden and flower beds and pick vegetables and fruit with my grandparents . I was drug by the ear to show me what I had done wrong and made to do it right . I was drug to the homes of family , friends and neighbors to help out some poor soul who had no one to mow the yard , repair the clothesline , or stack some firewood , and if my mother had ever know that I took a single dime as a tip for this kindness , she would have drug me back to the woodshed . Those drugs are still in my veins and they affect my behavior in everything I do , say , or think . They are stronger than cPosted by Myspace CommentsOver at iMommy there is a super contest for a sweet Valentines ( or any time item ) . Go check it out here : http : / / www . imommyblog . com / 2009 / 02 / valentine - giveaway . html Hopefully I will have a fun giveaway like this in the next month if I can get enough interest going for it . I still can 't get the link to work out so if anyone has some simple directions to help me figure outwhat I am doing wrong I would appreciate the help . Tammy over at " Queen Size Funny Bone " wrote the most amazing thing today . It says everything I have been thinking since this crazy assed story was first reported . Go check it out and let me know what you think . http : / / queen - sized . blogspot . com / 2009 / 02 / 68 - 14 . htmlSorry I still can 't figure out the link thing so you 'll have to copy and paste . Someone had some extremely rude comments on my Myspace page about women with tattoos ( I have pictures of all of them there ) . At first I was totally offended and ready to go to war with them . Instead I decided that I really didn 't care what anyone else had to say about it . Anybody surprised by that ? I didn 't think so . My tattoos are an expression of who I am and nobody has the right to dictate what I will be except for me ! ! So haters of the world , this is my opinion and when it comes to my body , I really don 't care if you don 't like it . I got my first tattoo at a drunken biker party . I say first , because they are 100 % completely addictive . Everyone always says they will only get one . You may put it off , but someday , sometime , somewhere you will get another one . It is one of the better addictions that I have had and / or heard of . I now have upwards of 10 . All are tasteful and can be covered up if the need arises that I need them hidden . It drives me nuts when people start talking about how in 40 years we will have hundreds of old women running around with saggy tattoos . Do you really care or are you just trying one more time to make people think tattoos are only for awful , mean , bad people who will kill you if you meet them in a dark alley ? Only for drunken sailors or gangs ? Why would anyone really care if I cover my body in ink if that is what I choose to do ? If I don 't care , why should anyone else ? My opinion on it is that if my husband and I aren 't bothered by them , then it really doesn 't matter that when I am 60 I may have a whale on my leg instead of the cute little dolphin that is there now and so what if my frogs turn into dragons ? My daughter , who cries at the sight of a needle , got one of a fire helmet and dolphins to honor her father and myself . I think it was a sweet gesture . Another daughter got the name of her deceased son on her back , again a very sweet gesture . I get them for a variety of reasons , the love of pain : - ) ( jk ) , things with meanings to me , things I really like , and as the next one will be , a trPosted by Still not sure what is causing the fluid in his head to build up . The neurosurgeon told Jacki to bring him in every few days and have his head measured to make sure the fluid is not effecting his brain and to watch him close for signs of discomfort . He seems fine and is starting to " talk " all the time . Hopefully we will not have to spend anymore time up at Primary Children 's . Just knowing that Zariah died there makes it really hard to even go into the building ! Trey was admitted back into Primary Children 's today . His fever will not drop below 103 and the swelling in his soft spot is back . At this point they are sure he has Adenovirus and that is causing his fever and spewing from both ends . They don 't know , or at least haven 't figured out yet , what made the fluid retention and swelling come back . Jacki is about to lose it and I don 't really know what to do to help her . Please pray for her to be strong , for the baby to get better and have his fever go down and for the doctors to figure out what is wrong with him . Please go here : http : / / namesinthesand . blogspot . com / 2009 / 01 / zariah - lynn - etienne . htmland see the most beautiful beach with Zariah 's name written on it by the most caring and wonderful people . Carly & Sam Dudley lost their son Christian and as a tribute to him they lovingly write the angels names in the sand on their beautiful Australian beach . This one for Zariah is so precious to us words cannot describe it . Thank you Sam & Carly ! ! Welcome to Not Me ! Monday ! This blog carnival was created by MckMama . You can head over to her blog to read what she and everyone else have not been doing this week . I did not let Jaycee dye my hair bright pink , people would think I was a flamingo with that hair color . I did not stay at a Hilton Hotel this past weekend even though the rooms do not cost an arm and a leg . They do not have the super best rooms and softest pillows ever . I did not enjoy every minute of not being at the hotel and not enjoying the peace and quiet of no kids or dogs ! ! I did not spend way too much money at a " Passion Party " last weekend on things that I will not ever find a use for . Their lotions and body sprays do not smell wonderful ! ! I did not watch the stupid Grammy 's last night for 2 hours just to lust over Kid Rock for 3 minutes . I did not laugh at the fugly clothes people thought they looked good in , I would never be that rude . I did not argue with an anonymous comment poster . That would be futile and immature and I would never engage in that behavior . I do not know any secrets that I am not dying to tell . I will not go crazy before I tell someone 's secret though . I did not actually , kinda , sorta meet my first real life bloggy friend and she is not great , HI ABBY ! ! ! I did not go into the 15 item or less line with 16 items at Smith 's on Saturday ~ ~ It is not one of biggest irritations when someone else does it ! ! I did not sit on the couch all day Sunday trying to will away my headache from the night before . I did not buy a Wii after swearing we wouldn 't be getting one because nobody plays with the Nintendo , Playstation , XBox , Gameboys , etc . . . And it does not have a ton of really fun games you can get for it . I will not be found in the basement playing it . . . . EVER , so don 't look there for me if I happen to be missing ! ! So what DIDN ' T you all do last week ? ? The baby was retested for some things today . Another spinal tap and scans and everything has come back negative . They have changed his antibiotic from the pneumonia and that is the only thing that they have found that could be wrong . He is going to stay in the hospital for another night for observation and then he will be released tomorrow with Jacki watching him close for any changes in his soft spot . Thanks for all your prayers , I know I believe in religion different than most of you , but I do believe in prayer and I am sure it helped ! ! A lot of the baby 's tests have come back and have all been negative . The viral meningitis was negative , but the test for the bacterial won 't be back for a day or so . Max says he looks good and he feels they will be figuring out what is wrong soon and they will be home . It looks like it may be just a random infection and possibly some antibiotics or at the worst a shunt to fix it . I hope he is right and that is what I am focusing on for now . He has been admitted to Primary Children 's . The CAT Scan came back OK , but obviously something is wrong so they drained some of the fluid off his head and also did a spinal tap to test for meningitis and other diseases and have set up an MRI for tomorrow . They did start him on an antibiotic so if it is meningitis he will already have started the therapies for it . They have told her he may be there a long time so we are going to take up the trailer tonight and hopefully they are wrong and we will be bringing it home on the weekend . I will let everyone know when we know exactly what he has . Thanks for all the well wishes and prayers . Our sweet baby Trey was just sent to Primary Children 's Hospital today . We have been worried about a watery feeling bump in his soft spot and Jacki took him to the doctor today who told her to immediately take him to Salt Lake . This could be from many different things , from a blockage and the brain fluid can 't drain and it could be as easy as putting a shunt in to drain it , unfortunately it could also be a brain tumor or brain cancer or something horrible . We are asking everyone to pray for him to get better and be able to come home . He is such a sweet baby and I don 't know if Jacki & Max can deal with an illness or even worse again . I will post again when we know more , but in the mean time please keep him in your though . UPDATE : The doctors at Primary Children 's think Trey may have meningitis and are testing his fluids now and doing some other testing . Posted by I decided I needed a top 10 list of irritations and a top 10 reasons for frustration , just to jump on the bandwagon with everyone else : Irritations1 . No hunting season on pedophiles , sexual predators or baby rapers and no firing squads in the court rooms for when a child molester pleads guilty . Why must my tax dollars go to keeping these useless wastes of space alive and living better than I can afford ? Give that money to their victims ~ they are the ones that deserve help not the animals who preyed upon them ! 2 . Having to have a mammogram and ultrasound twice a year because I am a happy cancer survivor . Obviously I have already lost all my breasties so what on earth could make you think I want to be reminded of it twice a year by a technician with jokes I have heard a thousand times and really don 't make me feel any better about it ? There is no joke that can take my mind off the pain caused by a mammogram machine that only has tiny bits of tissue to grab onto . 3 . Having to listen to my husband 's damn dog who feels the need to whine , howl and bark when he feels he is not getting the attention he needs . 4 . People who excuse their children 's rudeness and bad behavior with a smile and shoulder shrug or some lame assed comment . Grow up and act like adults maybe they will learn from you . 5 . Having the same argument with my little girls about cleaning their room and the ridiculous excuses they make for why they can 't figure out if they take a couple minutes every day to pick up it wouldn 't get like that . 6 . Trying to find clothes styles somewhere between my daughters ' itty bitty pieces of material clothing and my mother 's polyester prison clothing that actually fit my fat ass and look half way decent . 7 . On any given day I am the only one ( so I think ) on the road that has a clue how to drive and knowing I can 't teach these complete idiots anything , except not to tailgate me and then pass me doing 110mph or I will turn my wig wags on and make you think you are getting pulled over ( only for a second , but boy is it fun to see pPosted by Welcome to Not Me ! Monday ! This blog carnival was created by MckMama . You can head over to her blog to read what she and everyone else have not been doing this week . I did not scream like a little girl when Justin 's sugar glider " crabbed " at me . I did not laugh so hard at a blog post from Redneck Mommy that I wet my pants , EWWWW - wouldn 't happen ! ! I did not know my mother in law was coming over and didn 't even comb my hair , nope that would make her think I am lazier than she thinks already . I did not spend $ 300 at the grocery store on Saturday buying pantry stock ups and junk food , knowing full and well that we had a budget to stick to , that would be very immature ! I did not eat a whole bag of potato chips when I got home from said shopping trip . I did not Let Libby have an ice cream cone AND a popsicle because she asked for it so cute , why can 't I say no to that kid ? ? ? I did not spend too much time on the computer and watching TV last night and it did not make me so tired I fell asleep at my desk today . I did not just spend the last 2 hours looking up information on sugar gliders because they are not cuter than hell and I would not be wanting to maybe get one of my own . What " didn 't " you do this past week ? ? ? There is a factory in Northern Minnesota which makes the Tickle Me Elmo toys . The toy laughs when you tickle it under the arms . Well , Lena is hired at The Tickle Me Elmo factory and she reports for her first day promptly at 8 : 00 am . The next day at 8 : 45 am there is a knock at the Personnel Manager 's door . The Foreman throws open the door and begins to rant about the new employee . . He complains that she is incredibly slow and the whole line is backing up , putting the entire production line behind schedule . The Personnel Manager decides he should see this for himself , so the 2 men march down to the factory floor . When they get there the line is so backed up that there are Tickle Me Elmo 's all over the factory floor and they 're really beginning to pile up . At the end of the line stands Lena surrounded by mountains of Tickle Me Elmo 's . She has a roll of plush red fabric and a huge bag of small marbles . The 2 men watch in amazement as she cuts a little piece of fabric , wraps it around two marbles and begins to carefully sew the little package between Elmo 's legs . The Personnel Manager bursts into laughter . After several minutes of hysterics he pulls himself together and approaches Lena . ' I 'm sorry , ' he says to her , barely able to keep a straight face , ' but I think you misunderstood the instructions I gave you yesterday . . . ' ' Your job is to give Elmo two test tickles ' . This is the funniest joke I have heard all week ! ! ! !

Your grandmother was an admirer of mine because I generally took the road less traveled . She also defended me and when I was about your age or maybe a little older she kept a bottle of good scotch handy for my visits . It was Johnny Walker Black Label . Want a chunk if not all of it taken care of ? Look at officer 's candidate school . Don 't say you 're not that kind of person . The valedictorian of a local high school recently left a pile of scholarships on the table and opted for the Marine Corps . As an enlisted man . You want to teach history , according to your mother . That 's a good , steady honest career . I can look back on my teachers and think about the ones that were worth sour apples and the teachers that were a pain in the ass . The thing most of the good ones had in common is that they had done something besides teach . Incidentally ( put this in the For What It 's Worth department ) One of my favorite teachers was a black man that barely finished high school . He was a Staff sergeant and was my drill sergeant . That man could TEACH ! Most of my favorites had brought some form of military or civilian experience along with them and in the classroom it showed . One of my favorites had spent a couple years in ( then ) Ceylon with the Peace Corps . Neat guy . Companies like former military officers and senior NCOs because they don 't have to teach them things . They already know them . In a way it 's the same for teachers . Schools are dying for people that have more than a lousy piece of sheepskin . They want people to bring experiences into the classroom . Incidentally one thing virtually all service people over the rank of corporal are is teachers . They teach the people below them in some pretty improvised classrooms . I have to this day a few skills I learned downrange in dirty weather under my belt . Being a soldier or a sailor isn 't all you think it is . Only about 10 % of US servicemen handle or used weapons directly . There are a lot of jobs that involve different things that are not weapons related at all . For example , most people do not know that the army Corps of Engineers is charged with the upkeep of all of out western rivers . Your other choice is to walk into the classroom as a 26 year old man . You 'll be able to confidently look up and down the rows of desks and just know which kids are going to be problems . You won 't be relying on classroom theory because you will have 4 years of practical knowledge under your belt . Another thing is debt . I believe the services forgive either all or most student debt upon commissioning . That goes a long way . Having a degree and no debt at 22 years old is a pretty good deal in this day and age . " I am an old man and don 't get around so good no more . Three is a mistake . You are number four . I gave you my social security number by mistake . " While I was logging the contact the next guy that he QSO 'd was laughing outright . He knew I was just picking a few plums . " I guess that old fella told you , " he said . The weather just won 't let up as I woke up to a dusting of snow . Just yesterday Neighbor Bob and I were commenting on how the daffodils are starting and this morning , POW ! More snow . ' ' You have to change your attitude before you leave , " I said . " You 're not so much going TO North Carolina as much as you are LEAVING Pittsburgh . When you leave Pittsburgh , leave it behind you . " I explained that they have low taxes there because they provide fewer services . For example , you take your own trash to the dump . Want to hear the classic example ? So you push for a bill and then want street lights which they add . Then you discover that the old dirt road drained but the new one doesn 't . You uproot the street lights , install storm drains , reinstall the street lights . The next step is that you notice that now there is a smooth ribbon of pavement that every drives like the hammers of hell on it . " When they put a pile of grits next to your bacon and eggs just eat them and shut up . Keep you mouth shut and your eyes and ears open . Look around and see how they do things . It 's going to be different and different means different . It doesn 't mean wrong . Get used to doing things differently . Leave Pittsburgh here . " I have a friend of sorts that is a true American Badass . He is a serving SFC US Army that is on his twilight tour . He 's going to retire when his deployment is over . By now any of you readers know I hate snow . It 's also cold out and I have things I wanted to do outside . Instead I am likely going to add another DX entity to the pile . I didn 't get out the other day to shoot because something came up and it irks me because of today 's weather . I think I 'll grub shop today for the boat . I generally find a day like this to get the hard groceries that can sit and just before I leave I get the perishables . This has the makings of a blah day . One chick from Idaho dropped by and she seemed to get it . I was making us lunch and she went to get water and grabbed the shotgun . She had grown up on a ranch and knew how to take care of herself . Right now I see a lot of my former classmates seeming to be willing to trade their rights off for the perception of safety . I see things a lot differently . I don 't want government issued safety . I 'm smart enough to know it doesn 't work . The government can pass all the laws it wants to but bears and criminals are not going to obey them . Stateside is pretty straightforward . You supply your card and an SASE . The ham that receives the request and SASE simply fills out his card , stuffs it in the supplied envelope and drops it in the mail . Enter Iran . It 's over ten bucks US to get a letter to the States . That 's mailing it by shipping it on a slow boat to Outer Slobovia . I 'm sure air mail is a lot higher . When you also remember that most likely the dollar fluctuates over there it 's no wonder that the Iranian ham posted on his QRZ page to send $ 13 . It 's damned expensive to send a letter from Iran , and it runs about $ 10 US . That 's today 's rate . No telling what it is going to be when when the letter arrives if the economy in Iran is touch and go . I suppose to a small extent he is . He may be turning a nickel / dime profit of some sort , but it 's not really anywhere as much as he is accused of . Truth is , his postal system is flat out expensive . I suppose the average reader knows what a sharecropper is . The practice picked up quite a bit after the Civil War because of the number of recently freed slaves . Of course , sharecroppers were kind of looked down upon because they didn 't own the land they worked . The truth of the matter is that most of us are sharecroppers in one form or another . We 're expected to produce and make the company we work for a profit . If we don 't we 're gone . It is as simple as that . It 's skill based and market based . If the market is full of widget makers the wage for that job is likely pretty low . If widget makers are hard to come by a company will likely pay a pretty penny for a good one . Yesterday I was grub shopping and I was in the deli / beer sales / restaurant of the local supermarket . There was some woman there from corporate there asking people for their opinion of the operation . It 's fairly new . The woman from corporate looked pretty uncomfortable but a woman that worked at the store and overheard me . She looked at me with a very amused look on her face and interrupted . She 's in her mid to late 40s and a generally happy person that has waited on me several times before . " Since corporate cut our hours I could use some more work . Maybe as a contract entertainer . Just the excuse I need to lose a few pounds , " she said . Of course because I have just said something we 'll get clobbered with about 8 feet of the stuff but maybe not . As I usually do I think I 'll plant marigolds and maybe a few petunias . We 'll see . It 's clear and calm today which means I may shoot . I have to work up a load . I am sighted in pretty good for 200 yards . When I get a good , accurate load worked up I 'll crony it to measure the velocity and then run the numbers . If the numbers mean I 'll stay supersonic at 1000 yards I 'll work up a sheet of come - ups from 200 yards and I ought to be good to go for match season . I called the Fudd over and said , " Watch me tear up my point of hold . " The I did just that . I put all of my rounds into the X - ring . This was a few years back and I remember that he was the guy that got booted out of the club for using the facilities for a political fund raiser . I wasn 't there but he threatened all sorts of legal action when he got the boot . He didn 't get far . I was feeling pretty good and decided to gas up at the local convenience store . I gassed up and went in for something . I told the clerk she looked pretty good today , she grinned . Then I noticed a cop standing in a corner sipping a coffee . I have no problem with this at all . Cops deserve a break , too . I nodded at the cop and he grinned back . Some time ago I had met him and we had chatted . He had mentioned there have been a few problems and said it would be wise to check locks . Typical cop advice but I do listen and take heed . I suggested he call Charlie Chan to come and solve a few mysteries around town and he asked me who Charlie Chan was . I told him he was a famous Old School detective . I also told him tongue in cheek that back in the day J . Edgar Hoover had dispatched 275 G - men to solve a missing jewel mystery and they worked 6 months without a single lead and Charlie had come in and solved the entire case in 90 minutes . A couple of weeks later he saw me and pulled up and told me he had watched a Chan movie and found it somewhat amusing . " Now I 'll at least know what you old goats are talking about , " he said . We both laughed . Then I recommended to him ' The Thief of Baghdad ' " The Fairbanks one made in 1924 , " I said . He actually wrote it down . Then we parted ways . " I went to a bachelor party last night and I guess I 'm still half coked up and drunk . I 'll be OK . There hasn 't been a hangover made that I can 't shake off before noon . " I said . " After all , someone had to teach those twenty somethings how to get the strippers wound up . " " I drove them , " I said . " Damned kids don 't know how to drive when they get tanked up . They start hot rodding and get caught . I had to show ' em a couple of tricks . " The cop moved into the darker part of the corner trying to remain unseen but I could tell he was amused . " Nah , " I replied . All you have to do is keep your speed down and follow the rules and you 'll be OK . Besides , the cops in this town couldn 't even catch the clap in a Singapore whorehouse . " I saw the cop have a hell of a time not snarfing coffee when I said that . He was actually amused . He looked at me . " ' The Thief of Baghdad ' was pretty good , considering it was a silent movie , " he said . " The special effects were well ahead of its time . " It always seems like the smarter people are held back from achieving their true potential . Part of it is because we put our money in the wrong department . We spend it on the slower people . The No Child Left Behind programs seem to slow progress down . They tend to slow things up to let the slower kids catch up at the expense of the more talented kids . The future movers and shakers are held back . First of all , it 's the St . Patrick 's Day parade , not the Gay Pride parade . The gay community has their day and their parade , although it 's likely that most gays don 't participate because they have better things to do . Most gays have jobs , careers , things of that nature and really don 't care about being in a parade . Likely you 'd never hear the end of things . The moaning , wailing and gnashing of teeth would be epic . Frankly , I 'd love to see it just to be able to watch the outrage of the gay community . Actually I would have to say that there are likely a few gays in the parade as it stands . They are likely the part of the gay community that simply goes about their business with a little quiet dignity . I have no problem with this at all . Personally I gererally don 't attend parades . I really don 't have a dog in this fight . To find out why the blog is pink just cut and paste this : Now she is a wonderful young woman and has been joyously welcomed into the family that takes no prisoners . Still , nobody has done anything to seal the deal yet . I just had a word with my niece . She has two beautiful daughters and a couple of years ago she celebrated one of their birthdays with a pony ride at a place that has a bunch of ponies they sell rides on . She gave me their phone number . " Your Uncle Piccolo was so excited about you having a new member to the family that he decided to buy your new daughter a pony . I 've got to get back to work . Can I tie it to the fence ? " I 'm not going to tell you what I think would happen . I think I 'll let you , the reader , imagine the results of that one . Perhaps I would have because I personally got a lot out of the army and learned a lot there . I did go to serve , though and what I got out of it was more of a bonus . Today if I were to serve you can bet your ass it would be with a totally different attitude . Looking back on that I think I failed to take the emotionally charged arguments and politics into consideration . Of course , he was tried and acquited . Still , I didn 't think it would have made it to court if Al and Jesse hadn 't cme forth spouting their special brand of hate and discontentment . The other day I predicted the porn industry was going to move to Las Vegas . I guess outwardly that would be the place for them to go . However , someone pointed out to me that the reason prostitution is illegal in Las Vegas is because the people running the casinos have clout and don 't want it in Las Vegas . They are trying to give Las Vegas the image of a nice place to take the family . I got a lot of flack over my comments regarding Putin taking over Crimea . I suppose that if you read or in some cases re - read the post you will see that I didn 't say Putin was right or wrong . I simply said that he was looking out for the interests of Russia . If I were in Putin 's shoes likely I would have done the same thing . Any responsible head of the Russian state would have done the same thing . I also gave Putin credit for doing it with no serious bloodshed . Incidentally to those that say the United States has never invaded a sovereign country please remember a place called Iraq . Right now there is a flight missing that flew out of Malaysia . Right now there are all sorts of theories out there . Right now information is scanty . There are not enough pieces of information to put together and speculation is running wild . It 's been a pretty good ride for me because it at least make me think . Or at least try to . It 's also given me a place to rant , rave and vent . I suppose I have a few regular or semi - regular readers but the truth is if I had none I 's still face the keyboard every day . Doing that give me a sense of discipline . I suppose it is like someone I spoke with that makes their bed every single day . I seldom make my bed . I leave the covers heaped because the cat like it that way . I was thinking that this project would make me into a better typist but I was wrong . I 'm still a lousy typist and my typing is full of mistakes and I type slower than hell . Oh , well . I tried . When I go grub shopping for the boat I have a budget and spend every dime of it on grub . The money comes out of a grub allowance and we eat decently on it . So how come I see people pushing shopping carts that contain more expensive grub then we can afford paying for it with a government card ? Those kids are going to walk . That 's not what the organized crime statues are there for . The kid is guilty of a petty little misdemeanor , not a serious felony . One of the things I see happen is someone picks a fight or does something wrong and gets their ass beat and then runs to the law . If the fight picker had left things alone he wouldn 't be bothering me by making me have to listen to his sad tale of woe in the first place . The guy that thumped him is not only going to walk but I very well may buy him a beer afterwards . He 'd get the beer if he did it with style . While most police officers have integrity , if I get any inkling that the police are being dishonest the defendant walks immediately . While we can 't afford putting criminals back on the street , police dishonesty is generally a far worse thing for society to have to deal with . A dishonest cop is a criminal in uniform . I will be the first one to admit that I look at prosecuting attorneys with a somewhat jaundiced eye because they are politicians . This is the reason I will not sit on a jury where the defendant is on trial for his life . I simply don 't trust the system . This little essay is not to be misconstrued that I am on the side of the criminal element . I 'm not . I want to see justice done . If the defendant is guilty and the law applies , I 'll find him guilty . I am a believer in justice , honesty and integrity and will follow my conscience and call a case the way I see it . Judge 's orders be damned . After all , in a jury trial the judge is only there to be a mediator , explain a few points of law and keep the trial orderly and moving along . He 's the number two dog in the courtroom . One of the things about many of our enemies is that while they are or were enemies there are some of them I truly respect . Any good professional military man has the utmost respect for his enemies . I remember an old sergeant telling a young private that commented that the Viet Cong were a ragtag outfit unworthy of respect . " Little guy ? This tall ? Black pajamas and an AK - 47 ? You 're damned right I respect him and if you don 't respect your enemies you will come home in a box ! " snapped the old Platoon Sergeant . It should be noted that there was a picture of Irwin Rommel in one of our combat vehicles . An Iraqi corps commander , taken prisoner , was seated in the vehicle . He asked why there was a picture of one of our former enemies in the vehicle . Erwin Rommel comes to mind as do several others . Oddly I would not want to talk to Rommel about tactics , but logistics . The tactics used by the Desert Fox were pretty simple . The part that interests me are the logistics involved . He had a lot of men and materiel to move and I 'd like to know how he did it . Vladmir Putin is another one I 'd like to do something with . Maybe go fishing or something . I respect him for doing his job and looking out for the interests of his country even though what he did seems to be unpopular with the rest of the world . I 'd love to know how he thinks . He seems pretty shrewd to me . Tadamichi Kuribayashi is pretty high up on the list . For those that don 't recognize the name , he was the commanding officer of the Japanese forces on Iwo Jima . He seems to interest me for a number of reasons . He actually liked , or at least respected Americans . It is reported that several times he told his family that America was the last country that Japan should fight . Kuribayashi did one hell of a job defending Iwo Jima . It is the only time in the history of the Marine Corps that they took more casualties than they received . You sure don 't have to like that one bit but you certainly have to respect it . I 'll admit Kuribayashi is one guy that interests me . He was given a very distasteful job to do and did it in a first class manner . He went to Iwo Jima knowing he would not be coming home . The beverage of choice to share with Kuribayashi would be a large pitcher of clear , cool , water . He had little but rainwater on Iwo Jima as there were no springs there . He was damned clever . He allowed the Marines to get ashore on the sandy , impassable beach unopposed and after they were mired and bunched up he shelled the beach . Holland Smith , the American commanding officer comented , " I don 't know who he is , but the Japanese General running this show is one smart bastard . " Isoroku Yamamoto is another one I 'd love to share a cup of tea with . I would like to know how he thought . He was another Japanese officer that had spent time in the States and didn 't like the idea of Japan going to war with us . Still , when ordered to , he planned the attack on Pearl Harbor . It knocked this country for a loop , that 's for certain . It was one very crippling blow to our Navy . Robert E . Lee is another one I would like to have a cup of boiled camp coffee with but for different reasons . He was a thoughtful man and I 'd love to have been able to listen to him . Lee was a true southern gentleman . I suppose my Massachusetts relatives wonder about that one . On the other end of the stick I 'd like to have a drink with Ulysses Grant , the man that took Lee 's surrender . I can 't explain why . Beverage of choice here is Jim Beam . There are a few president 's I 'd like to have met . One is Lincoln . I would have liked to have watched him inspecting the ranks of the troops and watched his interactions with them . He is reported to have been a kind man as well as a political animal with a keen wit . Teddy Roosevelt is one guy I 'd like to go rabbit hunting with for some reason . If not hunting , then something that would take us outside . He 'd be interesting to listen to . Harry Truman would be fun to play poker with and have a couple bourbons with . I don 't even play poker . I 've read a few books about Harry and he was a man of character unlike many of our recent occupants of the Oval Office . Truman was pretty fiesty and also understood the duality of the presidency and from time to time he 'd park the presidency and become Harry Truman the man . Paul Hume , a music critic , gave his daughter a somewhat mean spitited review . Truman sent him a letter and even though he had franking privlige he put a three - cent stamp on it he paid for himself . He never abused his position . Oddly enough , it I had my choice of what to do with Ronald Reagan when he was president I would like to sit down with him in a living room and watch a couple Three Stooges shorts . Reagan had a twinkle in his eye and a sense of humor . Betcha if nobody was looking he 'd do a pretty good Curly imitation . They didn 't have to allow me the use of the kitchen if they didn 't want to . After all , it was a private club . The only things they were required to provide me with were the use of the range while I was involved in the CMP match and a bathroom . Pretty much the same thing is going on in Crimea . Crimea has in it several Russian military assets that have been there for quite some time . In fact , Crimeans do not seem to have any objection to find themselves being taken by the Russians as most likely the don 't want to be a part of the instability in Ukraine . With the present Ukrainian instability Putin just decided to make sure he has secured Sevastapol . I don 't blame him . If i were him , most likely I may have done the same thing . The thing that I admire about the way the entire thing has gone is that it has been pretty damned bloodless . There has been no fighting to speak of and the area is secure . He came in , secured Crimea and with it the Port of Sevastapol without killing anyone . He didn 't get involved in the internal infighting in Ukraine . He simply secured his legitimate military bases and the necessary port . Until recently the hub of the industry seemed to be southern California . Recently the California government has passed a few laws regulating it . I suppose a movie made there after the enactment of these laws could be called " OSHA Smut " . Shortly after the laws were enacted a number of porn outfits moved , some to Las Vegas . Nevada has no state laws prohibiting prostitution . They leave it to the counties to choose . Still , because of the attitude in Nevada it seems a slam dunk natural that the porn industry will make a home there . The other reason and this is a big reason , is that Nevada has low taxes . For example there is no state income tax there . Truth is , I 'd rather see the porn industry come to my town before the mainstream film industry did . It would be less damaging in the long term . We 'll see over time but one things is a pretty good bet . California is going down into the hurt locker in the not too distant future . Furthermore this man began his career a little later in life than the average kid that went in at 18 straight out of high school . In fact , this guy graduated from Ranger school well past his 40th birthday . That 's pretty hard core . That school is rough on people half the age he was when he graduated but he managed to tough it out .

Your grandmother was an admirer of mine because I generally took the road less traveled . She also defended me and when I was about your age or maybe a little older she kept a bottle of good scotch handy for my visits . It was Johnny Walker Black Label . Want a chunk if not all of it taken care of ? Look at officer 's candidate school . Don 't say you 're not that kind of person . The valedictorian of a local high school recently left a pile of scholarships on the table and opted for the Marine Corps . As an enlisted man . You want to teach history , according to your mother . That 's a good , steady honest career . I can look back on my teachers and think about the ones that were worth sour apples and the teachers that were a pain in the ass . The thing most of the good ones had in common is that they had done something besides teach . Incidentally ( put this in the For What It 's Worth department ) One of my favorite teachers was a black man that barely finished high school . He was a Staff sergeant and was my drill sergeant . That man could TEACH ! Most of my favorites had brought some form of military or civilian experience along with them and in the classroom it showed . One of my favorites had spent a couple years in ( then ) Ceylon with the Peace Corps . Neat guy . Companies like former military officers and senior NCOs because they don 't have to teach them things . They already know them . In a way it 's the same for teachers . Schools are dying for people that have more than a lousy piece of sheepskin . They want people to bring experiences into the classroom . Incidentally one thing virtually all service people over the rank of corporal are is teachers . They teach the people below them in some pretty improvised classrooms . I have to this day a few skills I learned downrange in dirty weather under my belt . Being a soldier or a sailor isn 't all you think it is . Only about 10 % of US servicemen handle or used weapons directly . There are a lot of jobs that involve different things that are not weapons related at all . For example , most people do not know that the army Corps of Engineers is charged with the upkeep of all of out western rivers . Your other choice is to walk into the classroom as a 26 year old man . You 'll be able to confidently look up and down the rows of desks and just know which kids are going to be problems . You won 't be relying on classroom theory because you will have 4 years of practical knowledge under your belt . Another thing is debt . I believe the services forgive either all or most student debt upon commissioning . That goes a long way . Having a degree and no debt at 22 years old is a pretty good deal in this day and age . " I am an old man and don 't get around so good no more . Three is a mistake . You are number four . I gave you my social security number by mistake . " While I was logging the contact the next guy that he QSO 'd was laughing outright . He knew I was just picking a few plums . " I guess that old fella told you , " he said . The weather just won 't let up as I woke up to a dusting of snow . Just yesterday Neighbor Bob and I were commenting on how the daffodils are starting and this morning , POW ! More snow . ' ' You have to change your attitude before you leave , " I said . " You 're not so much going TO North Carolina as much as you are LEAVING Pittsburgh . When you leave Pittsburgh , leave it behind you . " I explained that they have low taxes there because they provide fewer services . For example , you take your own trash to the dump . Want to hear the classic example ? So you push for a bill and then want street lights which they add . Then you discover that the old dirt road drained but the new one doesn 't . You uproot the street lights , install storm drains , reinstall the street lights . The next step is that you notice that now there is a smooth ribbon of pavement that every drives like the hammers of hell on it . " When they put a pile of grits next to your bacon and eggs just eat them and shut up . Keep you mouth shut and your eyes and ears open . Look around and see how they do things . It 's going to be different and different means different . It doesn 't mean wrong . Get used to doing things differently . Leave Pittsburgh here . " I have a friend of sorts that is a true American Badass . He is a serving SFC US Army that is on his twilight tour . He 's going to retire when his deployment is over . By now any of you readers know I hate snow . It 's also cold out and I have things I wanted to do outside . Instead I am likely going to add another DX entity to the pile . I didn 't get out the other day to shoot because something came up and it irks me because of today 's weather . I think I 'll grub shop today for the boat . I generally find a day like this to get the hard groceries that can sit and just before I leave I get the perishables . This has the makings of a blah day . One chick from Idaho dropped by and she seemed to get it . I was making us lunch and she went to get water and grabbed the shotgun . She had grown up on a ranch and knew how to take care of herself . Right now I see a lot of my former classmates seeming to be willing to trade their rights off for the perception of safety . I see things a lot differently . I don 't want government issued safety . I 'm smart enough to know it doesn 't work . The government can pass all the laws it wants to but bears and criminals are not going to obey them . Stateside is pretty straightforward . You supply your card and an SASE . The ham that receives the request and SASE simply fills out his card , stuffs it in the supplied envelope and drops it in the mail . Enter Iran . It 's over ten bucks US to get a letter to the States . That 's mailing it by shipping it on a slow boat to Outer Slobovia . I 'm sure air mail is a lot higher . When you also remember that most likely the dollar fluctuates over there it 's no wonder that the Iranian ham posted on his QRZ page to send $ 13 . It 's damned expensive to send a letter from Iran , and it runs about $ 10 US . That 's today 's rate . No telling what it is going to be when when the letter arrives if the economy in Iran is touch and go . I suppose to a small extent he is . He may be turning a nickel / dime profit of some sort , but it 's not really anywhere as much as he is accused of . Truth is , his postal system is flat out expensive . I suppose the average reader knows what a sharecropper is . The practice picked up quite a bit after the Civil War because of the number of recently freed slaves . Of course , sharecroppers were kind of looked down upon because they didn 't own the land they worked . The truth of the matter is that most of us are sharecroppers in one form or another . We 're expected to produce and make the company we work for a profit . If we don 't we 're gone . It is as simple as that . It 's skill based and market based . If the market is full of widget makers the wage for that job is likely pretty low . If widget makers are hard to come by a company will likely pay a pretty penny for a good one . Yesterday I was grub shopping and I was in the deli / beer sales / restaurant of the local supermarket . There was some woman there from corporate there asking people for their opinion of the operation . It 's fairly new . The woman from corporate looked pretty uncomfortable but a woman that worked at the store and overheard me . She looked at me with a very amused look on her face and interrupted . She 's in her mid to late 40s and a generally happy person that has waited on me several times before . " Since corporate cut our hours I could use some more work . Maybe as a contract entertainer . Just the excuse I need to lose a few pounds , " she said . Of course because I have just said something we 'll get clobbered with about 8 feet of the stuff but maybe not . As I usually do I think I 'll plant marigolds and maybe a few petunias . We 'll see . It 's clear and calm today which means I may shoot . I have to work up a load . I am sighted in pretty good for 200 yards . When I get a good , accurate load worked up I 'll crony it to measure the velocity and then run the numbers . If the numbers mean I 'll stay supersonic at 1000 yards I 'll work up a sheet of come - ups from 200 yards and I ought to be good to go for match season . I called the Fudd over and said , " Watch me tear up my point of hold . " The I did just that . I put all of my rounds into the X - ring . This was a few years back and I remember that he was the guy that got booted out of the club for using the facilities for a political fund raiser . I wasn 't there but he threatened all sorts of legal action when he got the boot . He didn 't get far . I was feeling pretty good and decided to gas up at the local convenience store . I gassed up and went in for something . I told the clerk she looked pretty good today , she grinned . Then I noticed a cop standing in a corner sipping a coffee . I have no problem with this at all . Cops deserve a break , too . I nodded at the cop and he grinned back . Some time ago I had met him and we had chatted . He had mentioned there have been a few problems and said it would be wise to check locks . Typical cop advice but I do listen and take heed . I suggested he call Charlie Chan to come and solve a few mysteries around town and he asked me who Charlie Chan was . I told him he was a famous Old School detective . I also told him tongue in cheek that back in the day J . Edgar Hoover had dispatched 275 G - men to solve a missing jewel mystery and they worked 6 months without a single lead and Charlie had come in and solved the entire case in 90 minutes . A couple of weeks later he saw me and pulled up and told me he had watched a Chan movie and found it somewhat amusing . " Now I 'll at least know what you old goats are talking about , " he said . We both laughed . Then I recommended to him ' The Thief of Baghdad ' " The Fairbanks one made in 1924 , " I said . He actually wrote it down . Then we parted ways . " I went to a bachelor party last night and I guess I 'm still half coked up and drunk . I 'll be OK . There hasn 't been a hangover made that I can 't shake off before noon . " I said . " After all , someone had to teach those twenty somethings how to get the strippers wound up . " " I drove them , " I said . " Damned kids don 't know how to drive when they get tanked up . They start hot rodding and get caught . I had to show ' em a couple of tricks . " The cop moved into the darker part of the corner trying to remain unseen but I could tell he was amused . " Nah , " I replied . All you have to do is keep your speed down and follow the rules and you 'll be OK . Besides , the cops in this town couldn 't even catch the clap in a Singapore whorehouse . " I saw the cop have a hell of a time not snarfing coffee when I said that . He was actually amused . He looked at me . " ' The Thief of Baghdad ' was pretty good , considering it was a silent movie , " he said . " The special effects were well ahead of its time . " It always seems like the smarter people are held back from achieving their true potential . Part of it is because we put our money in the wrong department . We spend it on the slower people . The No Child Left Behind programs seem to slow progress down . They tend to slow things up to let the slower kids catch up at the expense of the more talented kids . The future movers and shakers are held back . First of all , it 's the St . Patrick 's Day parade , not the Gay Pride parade . The gay community has their day and their parade , although it 's likely that most gays don 't participate because they have better things to do . Most gays have jobs , careers , things of that nature and really don 't care about being in a parade . Likely you 'd never hear the end of things . The moaning , wailing and gnashing of teeth would be epic . Frankly , I 'd love to see it just to be able to watch the outrage of the gay community . Actually I would have to say that there are likely a few gays in the parade as it stands . They are likely the part of the gay community that simply goes about their business with a little quiet dignity . I have no problem with this at all . Personally I gererally don 't attend parades . I really don 't have a dog in this fight . To find out why the blog is pink just cut and paste this : Now she is a wonderful young woman and has been joyously welcomed into the family that takes no prisoners . Still , nobody has done anything to seal the deal yet . I just had a word with my niece . She has two beautiful daughters and a couple of years ago she celebrated one of their birthdays with a pony ride at a place that has a bunch of ponies they sell rides on . She gave me their phone number . " Your Uncle Piccolo was so excited about you having a new member to the family that he decided to buy your new daughter a pony . I 've got to get back to work . Can I tie it to the fence ? " I 'm not going to tell you what I think would happen . I think I 'll let you , the reader , imagine the results of that one . Perhaps I would have because I personally got a lot out of the army and learned a lot there . I did go to serve , though and what I got out of it was more of a bonus . Today if I were to serve you can bet your ass it would be with a totally different attitude . Looking back on that I think I failed to take the emotionally charged arguments and politics into consideration . Of course , he was tried and acquited . Still , I didn 't think it would have made it to court if Al and Jesse hadn 't cme forth spouting their special brand of hate and discontentment . The other day I predicted the porn industry was going to move to Las Vegas . I guess outwardly that would be the place for them to go . However , someone pointed out to me that the reason prostitution is illegal in Las Vegas is because the people running the casinos have clout and don 't want it in Las Vegas . They are trying to give Las Vegas the image of a nice place to take the family . I got a lot of flack over my comments regarding Putin taking over Crimea . I suppose that if you read or in some cases re - read the post you will see that I didn 't say Putin was right or wrong . I simply said that he was looking out for the interests of Russia . If I were in Putin 's shoes likely I would have done the same thing . Any responsible head of the Russian state would have done the same thing . I also gave Putin credit for doing it with no serious bloodshed . Incidentally to those that say the United States has never invaded a sovereign country please remember a place called Iraq . Right now there is a flight missing that flew out of Malaysia . Right now there are all sorts of theories out there . Right now information is scanty . There are not enough pieces of information to put together and speculation is running wild . It 's been a pretty good ride for me because it at least make me think . Or at least try to . It 's also given me a place to rant , rave and vent . I suppose I have a few regular or semi - regular readers but the truth is if I had none I 's still face the keyboard every day . Doing that give me a sense of discipline . I suppose it is like someone I spoke with that makes their bed every single day . I seldom make my bed . I leave the covers heaped because the cat like it that way . I was thinking that this project would make me into a better typist but I was wrong . I 'm still a lousy typist and my typing is full of mistakes and I type slower than hell . Oh , well . I tried . When I go grub shopping for the boat I have a budget and spend every dime of it on grub . The money comes out of a grub allowance and we eat decently on it . So how come I see people pushing shopping carts that contain more expensive grub then we can afford paying for it with a government card ? Those kids are going to walk . That 's not what the organized crime statues are there for . The kid is guilty of a petty little misdemeanor , not a serious felony . One of the things I see happen is someone picks a fight or does something wrong and gets their ass beat and then runs to the law . If the fight picker had left things alone he wouldn 't be bothering me by making me have to listen to his sad tale of woe in the first place . The guy that thumped him is not only going to walk but I very well may buy him a beer afterwards . He 'd get the beer if he did it with style . While most police officers have integrity , if I get any inkling that the police are being dishonest the defendant walks immediately . While we can 't afford putting criminals back on the street , police dishonesty is generally a far worse thing for society to have to deal with . A dishonest cop is a criminal in uniform . I will be the first one to admit that I look at prosecuting attorneys with a somewhat jaundiced eye because they are politicians . This is the reason I will not sit on a jury where the defendant is on trial for his life . I simply don 't trust the system . This little essay is not to be misconstrued that I am on the side of the criminal element . I 'm not . I want to see justice done . If the defendant is guilty and the law applies , I 'll find him guilty . I am a believer in justice , honesty and integrity and will follow my conscience and call a case the way I see it . Judge 's orders be damned . After all , in a jury trial the judge is only there to be a mediator , explain a few points of law and keep the trial orderly and moving along . He 's the number two dog in the courtroom . One of the things about many of our enemies is that while they are or were enemies there are some of them I truly respect . Any good professional military man has the utmost respect for his enemies . I remember an old sergeant telling a young private that commented that the Viet Cong were a ragtag outfit unworthy of respect . " Little guy ? This tall ? Black pajamas and an AK - 47 ? You 're damned right I respect him and if you don 't respect your enemies you will come home in a box ! " snapped the old Platoon Sergeant . It should be noted that there was a picture of Irwin Rommel in one of our combat vehicles . An Iraqi corps commander , taken prisoner , was seated in the vehicle . He asked why there was a picture of one of our former enemies in the vehicle . Erwin Rommel comes to mind as do several others . Oddly I would not want to talk to Rommel about tactics , but logistics . The tactics used by the Desert Fox were pretty simple . The part that interests me are the logistics involved . He had a lot of men and materiel to move and I 'd like to know how he did it . Vladmir Putin is another one I 'd like to do something with . Maybe go fishing or something . I respect him for doing his job and looking out for the interests of his country even though what he did seems to be unpopular with the rest of the world . I 'd love to know how he thinks . He seems pretty shrewd to me . Tadamichi Kuribayashi is pretty high up on the list . For those that don 't recognize the name , he was the commanding officer of the Japanese forces on Iwo Jima . He seems to interest me for a number of reasons . He actually liked , or at least respected Americans . It is reported that several times he told his family that America was the last country that Japan should fight . Kuribayashi did one hell of a job defending Iwo Jima . It is the only time in the history of the Marine Corps that they took more casualties than they received . You sure don 't have to like that one bit but you certainly have to respect it . I 'll admit Kuribayashi is one guy that interests me . He was given a very distasteful job to do and did it in a first class manner . He went to Iwo Jima knowing he would not be coming home . The beverage of choice to share with Kuribayashi would be a large pitcher of clear , cool , water . He had little but rainwater on Iwo Jima as there were no springs there . He was damned clever . He allowed the Marines to get ashore on the sandy , impassable beach unopposed and after they were mired and bunched up he shelled the beach . Holland Smith , the American commanding officer comented , " I don 't know who he is , but the Japanese General running this show is one smart bastard . " Isoroku Yamamoto is another one I 'd love to share a cup of tea with . I would like to know how he thought . He was another Japanese officer that had spent time in the States and didn 't like the idea of Japan going to war with us . Still , when ordered to , he planned the attack on Pearl Harbor . It knocked this country for a loop , that 's for certain . It was one very crippling blow to our Navy . Robert E . Lee is another one I would like to have a cup of boiled camp coffee with but for different reasons . He was a thoughtful man and I 'd love to have been able to listen to him . Lee was a true southern gentleman . I suppose my Massachusetts relatives wonder about that one . On the other end of the stick I 'd like to have a drink with Ulysses Grant , the man that took Lee 's surrender . I can 't explain why . Beverage of choice here is Jim Beam . There are a few president 's I 'd like to have met . One is Lincoln . I would have liked to have watched him inspecting the ranks of the troops and watched his interactions with them . He is reported to have been a kind man as well as a political animal with a keen wit . Teddy Roosevelt is one guy I 'd like to go rabbit hunting with for some reason . If not hunting , then something that would take us outside . He 'd be interesting to listen to . Harry Truman would be fun to play poker with and have a couple bourbons with . I don 't even play poker . I 've read a few books about Harry and he was a man of character unlike many of our recent occupants of the Oval Office . Truman was pretty fiesty and also understood the duality of the presidency and from time to time he 'd park the presidency and become Harry Truman the man . Paul Hume , a music critic , gave his daughter a somewhat mean spitited review . Truman sent him a letter and even though he had franking privlige he put a three - cent stamp on it he paid for himself . He never abused his position . Oddly enough , it I had my choice of what to do with Ronald Reagan when he was president I would like to sit down with him in a living room and watch a couple Three Stooges shorts . Reagan had a twinkle in his eye and a sense of humor . Betcha if nobody was looking he 'd do a pretty good Curly imitation . They didn 't have to allow me the use of the kitchen if they didn 't want to . After all , it was a private club . The only things they were required to provide me with were the use of the range while I was involved in the CMP match and a bathroom . Pretty much the same thing is going on in Crimea . Crimea has in it several Russian military assets that have been there for quite some time . In fact , Crimeans do not seem to have any objection to find themselves being taken by the Russians as most likely the don 't want to be a part of the instability in Ukraine . With the present Ukrainian instability Putin just decided to make sure he has secured Sevastapol . I don 't blame him . If i were him , most likely I may have done the same thing . The thing that I admire about the way the entire thing has gone is that it has been pretty damned bloodless . There has been no fighting to speak of and the area is secure . He came in , secured Crimea and with it the Port of Sevastapol without killing anyone . He didn 't get involved in the internal infighting in Ukraine . He simply secured his legitimate military bases and the necessary port . Until recently the hub of the industry seemed to be southern California . Recently the California government has passed a few laws regulating it . I suppose a movie made there after the enactment of these laws could be called " OSHA Smut " . Shortly after the laws were enacted a number of porn outfits moved , some to Las Vegas . Nevada has no state laws prohibiting prostitution . They leave it to the counties to choose . Still , because of the attitude in Nevada it seems a slam dunk natural that the porn industry will make a home there . The other reason and this is a big reason , is that Nevada has low taxes . For example there is no state income tax there . Truth is , I 'd rather see the porn industry come to my town before the mainstream film industry did . It would be less damaging in the long term . We 'll see over time but one things is a pretty good bet . California is going down into the hurt locker in the not too distant future . Furthermore this man began his career a little later in life than the average kid that went in at 18 straight out of high school . In fact , this guy graduated from Ranger school well past his 40th birthday . That 's pretty hard core . That school is rough on people half the age he was when he graduated but he managed to tough it out .

I am a stay - at - home mother of 8 . We home school , and our lives are full and rich . Only 2 students now ! Others have flown the nest and are building their own lives . Here 's the second 3 - 1 / 2 " square ornament . I love their simplicity . They are both on the tree for now , but they might end up being gifts for someone . I quilted this in the ditch with metallic gold thread . Did a few everyday things this AM , then wanted to sew so badly ( even if it was just for a few minutes ! ) . This is the result . . . all from scraps of fabric and batting on my cutting table . It is 3 - 1 / 2 " square . Gifts . They are a thorn in my side . I always feel like the gifts I give are inadequate . But I 'm doing my best and putting a lot of heart into them ! I made two of these Little ZZ runners as gifts . One for my girl , Elisabeth ( that I never posted a picture of finished ) , and one for someone else . The someone else hasn 't seen hers yet . It turned out so nicely that I decided to make one for a surprise for a woman at my church . I admire her very much . In fact , when I grow up , I want to be as selfless , kind , and loving as she . I am going to surprise her with this tomorrow . It is finished and measures 17 - 1 / 2 " x 23 - 1 / 2 " . Nothing quilt - y going on here , but I do have two new hairdos to show . I did the first one myself . It 's called a waterfall braid . I liked it . Would probably look better if I let my hair curl at the ends . The second one is quite hilarious . It didn 't turn out " quite " right . My hairdresser was a little exuberant to begin with . The best way to explain this is that one pulls up about 1 / 3 of her hair into a ponytail in the center of the top of the head . Then a French braid is done all around , pulling 2 / 3 of the hair from the outside and 1 / 3 from the ponytail ( leaving the ponytail holder in ) . It should have been braided much closer to the top and tighter , but it does give one a good laugh for the day . I 'm not going to say anything about it and see if my husband notices . It was a red - letter day for a few other reasons . I bought a blouse today . And a necklace . And earrings . I don 't remember all of those things happening in the same day ( OK - - the same year ) for as long as I can remember . You see , tomorrow is my husband 's Christmas party for his work , and I want to look my BEST . The above picture is not my best : ) , so I 'll press onward for a good hairstyle . I didn 't just buy any old earrings , I bought miniature chandeliers . My girls were shocked . I only wear very tiny , hardly noticeable earrings . . . until tomorrow ! ! ! Here 's the finished product on my new mantle idea for this year . We have a big , long , mantle . I am no decorator . I combined a couple ideas I saw here and there . Wes cut out and nailed everything all together for me . That 's my pine cone tree on the left side ( by the J ) spray painted gold . Here ' tis . . . This is what I started working on tonight . I got a pine cone piece splinter , and let me tell ya - - - - it hurt ! ! I had to stop . Since my adventure , I have found a better way to remove the pine cone pieces . Here you can see what I tried tonight . . . pruning shears , scissors , CHISELS ! ! None worked too well . Here I am gluing them onto my poster board shaped trees . I could wait no longer . Even though I 'm not finished covering the base ( due to the aforementioned splinter ) , I spray painted the bottom of this tree metallic gold . It . is . amazing . While I am not completely finished , I have made great progress . My desk is completely cleaned off and organized . I even set up my charging station for my iPod , phone , camera , and tablet ( back left corner ) . I have always set my lamp up on something , and the station itself is the perfect height . All things from the top have been put away . I had to do a slight repair on my December " Count on It " quilt . Where baby Jesus ' neck and " shirt " touch , the red showed through the flesh - colored fabric . I held my breath and cut into the quilt from the back , feeling like a textile surgeon . The operation was a success . AND I have a cleared - off chest of drawer top . This and the cedar chest are my two hot spots in this room that attract clutter . One of my sons and I have been sick for a week . Miserable existence , but it could be so much worse . I was feeling a little energy last night before bedtime , so I made a list of a few things to get done today . Then , drats , I only slept about an hour and got up until after 4 : 30 this morning . The 3rd thing on my list of 21 ( I stopped making the list at that point because it was becoming depressing and overwhelming ) was to finish arranging the flowers in the cone in my bathroom . Here is what the bathroom sink area looked like after we took down the big mirror and installed medicine cabinets WITH STORAGE ! ! After much deliberation , I purchased a floral cone made out of a thick wire - looking stuff that had been aged to rust and looked good . I had a dickens of a time getting something to look good IN it , however . This is what I came up with this AM : Then I topped it off by scrubbing our bathroom from stem to stern . Whew ! Now on to our bedroom ( which I constantly feel guilty about because it 's my " dumping ground " instead of a restful retreat ) . New purchase of craft supplies ? DUMP . New - to - us clothes from Goodwill that need washed ? DUMP . Paperwork ? DUMP . Bobbins , thimbles , etc . ? DUMP . Christmas decorations ( finished or in process that I don 't know where to put ) ? DUMP . Box for broken blender waiting to be returned ? DUMP . I 'm sure you get the picture . The center of the Little ZZ ( I think that stands for Zig Zag ) is finished . I am so done in . Whatever this is that has me by the throat ( literally ) is wearing me out . It 's like a cold that has all settled in my throat . Makes me cough a lot , and I 'm short of breath nearly all the time . Heaven forbid I have to WALK ! ! As usual , I sew first and think of a recipient later . I had several different people in mind . Now I know who it will be , but they don 't know it 's them , so I 'll keep the recipient a surprise for now . Here is the progress picture on my runner . I did it . I rearranged some of the blocks . I noticed in the sample picture that there are 3 - 5 blocks of one color in a row , so I f - o - r - c - e - d myself to do it . The top left corner is sewn together , and I have 3 more rows pieced to add later ( just lying quietly on the design wall ) . Off for an errand and might sew more later . My sweet 14 - year - old got her top braces off yesterday . We left our house at 7 : 30 and didn 't get home until 4 : 15 . I have been under the weather ( yes , that 's me coughing and hacking ) , so I was completely exhausted after all that running around . We went to Hobby Lobby for a couple specific things . I always peruse the quilt magazines while I 'm there . I saw this little runner ( 17 " x 23 " ) and decided to give it a go . It is a FREE pattern from Fons and Porter . I love free patterns . I cut out a bunch of strips this morning , sewed them together , subcut some units , and some triangles . Here is the quilt laid out on my design wall . It is in perfectly OCD rows of green and red zigzags . I tried to mix them up as I laid them out , but I . could . not . I sewed a bunch of strips up and ended up with about twice as many red units as green . One of the things that appealed to me about the original quilt 's picture is that the colors are all red and green , but they are mixed up . Can * I * do THAT ? ? I 'm gonna try before I call it a finished design layout . I want to be less perfectionist , but old habits die hard . Stay tuned . This is my latest hand - piecing project . It will be a very long and slow process , but I wanted to document it for myself for the future . I started by cutting up one brown and one cream ( for alternate squares ) . I have used 2 pinks so far . As I come across pieces large enough ( 5 - 1 / 2 " square ) of the creams for the alternate squares , I will add them to the pile . These are LeMoyne stars . I am making them all brown and pink with one cream background per block . If history repeats itself , I will have many fabrics represented by the time this is a finished quilt top . I am thinking of making a bed - sized quilt and quilting it by hand , so look for the finish in about 14 years . In the meantime , I 'm enjoying the hand piecing . I might even get all fancy and use some brown alternate squares or ( ! ) pink ones . Pink was the favorite color of one of my grandmothers . I 've never been fond of it , but I like it in these . Here is the other project I am working on today . . . machine quilting my green scrappy square shams to match my Christmas quilt ( which is on the bed as I type ) . I took my DH 's advice from the last time I nearly went blind quilting with matching thread and am quilting with the muslin on TOP instead of the usual backing location . It 's going well , and I might finish them today ! These are four fall candle holders . The Mod Podge ( MP ) is wet in the picture . They are quite pretty when dry . I know this because they were dry before I put on this last coat of stuff . Later I will post a picture of them with candles inside . This came about because someone asked me if I was " doing " Thanksgiving at my house . We made the decision some years ago that we would always stay home for Thanksgiving ( barring any very unusual circumstances ) . We invite others who are not traveling to see their families and take in single college students that would otherwise be alone for the day . It 's usually a big ordeal . Well , this same person asked me what I was using to decorate . The question took me by surprise , so I answered , " Food . " I truly hadn 't thought about it . What is more beautiful than a bountiful buffet including a wide array of desserts ? I knew I 'd be cooking all day Wednesday as well as Thursday morning right up to the 20 - minute feast . It did get me thinking , however . I had pinned a picture of a clear glass jar that had fall leaves Mod Podged to it . It was made by a CHILD ! ! How easy could that be ? It was actually quite frustrating . They had left out a few pertinent details . The most important ( but unmentioned ) was that a large - mouthed jar was necessary . At least something you can get your hand down into ( for placing the candle ! ) . I tried a regular - sized canning jar . No go . I peeled off my leaves ( which was easy because the stinkin ' things didn 't stick in the first place ) and washed the jar . I eventually found out these important steps : Gather a variety of leaves in both color and size . You might have a tiny space that needs a little more color . We have some great leaves around here . Rachel was getting them for me as we came home from an errand . We saw a magnificent red - leaved tree in someone 's yard ( fairly close to the house ) . I told her to ring the bell and ask them first in case they looked out the window and saw her making off with their leaves . When Rachel asked how many she could have , the lady said , " Take them all ! " Hahaha . . . that 's someone who does NOT like to rake ! One must " press " the leaves to dry them and make them perfectly flat before using the MP to hold them to the jar . I did this by layering them in an old phone book ( the one I use for paper - piecing foundations , incidentally ) . The first batch was pressed for 3 days because I was out of town . I did a batch last night for just a few hours , and they were divine . Place something heavy on the book or whatever to really PRESS them . Make sure your leaves are not too thick . I had some fabulous green leaves ( I don 't know which kind . . . not magnolia - - I 'm not that stupid ! ) that refused to bend around the jars curved surface . See the little white string in the above picture in the lower right - hand corner ( in the shadow of the MP bottle ? ) ? That 's waxed dental floss . I would not be outdone by a recalcitrant leaf , so after applying more MP to the outer surface of the leaf , I wrapped the dental floss around the jar to keep the stem and top of the leaf in place ( ha ! take that you stupid leaf ! ) . Victory was mine . Later I carefully unwrapped the string and put another coat of MP on . At first I thought I 'd just use canning jars I had here . That idea quickly went south because I didn 't have any wide - mouthed ones . I didn 't want to buy any jars either . Ironically enough , as I was leaving yesterday to take my daughter to her piano lesson , I texted her teacher that if she was just about to throw away a large - mouthed clear jar , save it for me . . . I was on my way . Ironically enough , she WAS about to pitch a salsa jar . It was PERFECT ! I also repurposed two natural peanut butter jars . Since we switched to a mostly whole foods diet over a year ago , we don 't buy much stuff in jars . Another sacrifice on my part ( I 'm such a martyr ) . My fourth jar IS a wide - mouthed canning jar , but I only had the one . I purposely used 4 different sized jars . The perfectionist in me just had to let that detail go ! Gonna hafta do something about those pillow shams . The red behind them are our regular pillow cases . Even if they were the right size , I am not liking the dark cream . It 's one of my favorite Thimbleberries creams , but it just looks weird . Maybe something green would be better ? That 's my plan ! The brass towel rings are next ! Bwahaha . . . I feel like a villain with a can of spray paint . It 's empowering . Here 's a pic of the newly - painted light fixture : When the lights are ON , it 's so bright that the fixture looks lighter than it really is . It looks better and darker in person . The finish perfectly matches the mirrored cabinet frames . Here is light off : One good thing about taking it down was seeing how it was put up . it just has one hole in the center for wiring . The downside is that when I went to Lowe 's yesterday for ceiling paint , I looked at light fixtures . I think the one I liked was $ 90 . . . and we need two ! I also looked at ORB towel racks . Not for $ 22 each , thank you very much . I 'll just spray paint our rings and see how that goes first . Where o where did the light fixture go ? O where , o where could it be ? In the garage , drying after being spray painted oil - rubbed bronze to match the mirror frames ! I put a space heater next to it and am rotating it , so it 's nearly dry ! Yippee ! Please note the burn marks on the ceiling from the 8 light bulbs in the fixture . They will soon be gone . . . maybe even today ! But most likely before the weekend . I have been reading horror stories about painting on an old popcorn ceiling ( which is what this is ) , but I 'm going to put paintbrush in hand and hope for the best ! Purely for your amusement , I am sharing the picture of my grapevine lightning bolt in our newly updated ( somewhat ) bathroom . I wanted a random shape that was not round . This usually hangs above the robe / PJ bar to the left of my sink . Hahahahaha : I hung it with an easily removable Command hook that was very tiny . It 's too much brown and not enough substance . I still like it in the long , thin space above the hanging bar though . Back it will go . I like the things I 've collected / bought , so I like to " shop my own house " when I 'm looking for a decoration . FWIW , I 'm also going to paint the light fixture with oil - rubbed bronze paint . We will probably put in other light fixtures above each mirrored cabinet at some point , but to make it less BRIGHT BRASS , I am going to paint it . The thing is , it got soooo cold yesterday that I think it 's too cold to paint in the garage . I am going to give it a try anyway , and use a space heater until it 's dry . I 'd like to do that tomorrow , but we 'll see . Time will tell ! I will paint the hinges on the cabinet below the sinks at the same time . The knobs are a combination of very little brushed brass and ORB finish , so I 'm going to leave them as is . Our bathroom is finished for now , but is in need of some decor for between the mirrors . I thought a wreath would be lovely , but since the mirrors are oval , that would be repeating the shape too much . Any suggestions ? I love dried flowers , grapevine wreaths , quilts ( haha - - who would 've guessed ? ) , etc . My husband is just THE best . I have been asking him if we could take down a big , flat mirror in our bathroom ( behind the double sinks ) and put up some mirrored cabinets ( for storage , you know ) . He asked me if I wanted to go look at them ( again ) last night . I had resigned myself to not getting them for at least a month ( we are acting our wage , incidentally ) . To my great surprise , we brought two new mirrored medicine cabinets home last night . Another great surprise was the answer to the burning question . . . " did I paint behind the big , flat mirror when we moved in here , or did I go the easy route and leave it green ? " Wes ( being the eager beaver that he is ) took down the mirror while I was taking Rachel to the flea market to peddle her biscuits and coffee . That explains why my " before " picture does not have the ugly , flat , too - small mirror in it . Yes ! I HAD painted behind the mirror . The smoke signal in the middle is where I burned a candle and had it set too close to the back wall . The smoke will not scrub off . I tried every cleaner I had plus an extra - large dose of elbow grease , and no change . My sweetums also fixed a drawer in our bathroom that up until today never closed . See second picture , second drawer down . That 's nearly 7 years of not closing . Instead of just standing around and waiting for the paint to dry ( ha ha ) , I scrubbed the white window blinds that are to the right of the counter above . One spot of cleanliness does surely lead to others . Future plans include painting the countertop and backsplash ( yes , I am giving it a try ) , recaulking the sinks , and painting the cabinets in there . Very ambitious , but I am loving the improvements already . My Christmas shower curtain is finished . Lined , buttonholed , everything ! No picture . I have been piecing a backing for my first Christmas quilt gift . It has been coming along swimmingly . Check it out on my secret blog . I just have to add the last printed piece on the right and then line it . There will not be any batting . I will sew 3 sides and then turn it right side out . Then I attach binding to the top of the curtain just like a quilt ( only on one side ) . Then 12 evenly - spaced buttonholes . No quilting either , so I 'm nearly finished ! My Christmas shower curtain is coming along . I have 3 of the 7 verticle sections sewn together . You can get an idea of how it looks here , pinned to my existing curtain . I have all the panels sewn , just need to sew them to each other , line it , and make those 12 crucial buttonholes . So , I 'll have another pieced panel , a print panel , a pieced panel , then end with a print panel . This uses up every last inch of the Christmas print . I just started using a new system for remembering about a week ago . It 's collosal . . . it 's life - changing . . . I 'm calling it " writing it down on paper " . I was trying to remember how big different runners and wall hangings that I made my girls were . So before I gave Elisabeth this wall hanging to take to Wisconsin , I measured it AND WROTE IT DOWN . I wrote down the measurements of Emily 's table runner . Even when making the shower curtain above , I am constantly having to make calculations then remembering them . Funny thing . . . the weakest ink is stronger than the greatest memory . Recently I was shocked to find out that my husband LOVES Christmas decorations at our house . He even said something like , " I 'd leave them up all year if I could . " I made us a Christmas bed quilt this year ( just finished recently ) that has its own story ( click the underlined words to read all the posts about the quilt ) . That led to buying inexpensive but perfect red valances to match the quilt . Few know that our shower has a quilt for a curtain ! I patterned it after one I saw in a magazine years ago . I made it when we moved in here 6 - 1 / 2 years ago . Here it is . . . I needed about 70 " of the focus fabric ( which is not pictured ) . It was still on a bolt foundation on my shelf . I didn 't know how much was there . . . it didn 't look like much ! 72 " ! ! ! Just enough ! ! Finished the hand quilting on this mini . I quilted it to death . I like to use matching thread when possible and in certain instances . I am including a picture so you can see where I quilted the straight lines since they are in matching thread and difficult to see .

I am a stay - at - home mother of 8 . We home school , and our lives are full and rich . Only 2 students now ! Others have flown the nest and are building their own lives . Here 's the second 3 - 1 / 2 " square ornament . I love their simplicity . They are both on the tree for now , but they might end up being gifts for someone . I quilted this in the ditch with metallic gold thread . Did a few everyday things this AM , then wanted to sew so badly ( even if it was just for a few minutes ! ) . This is the result . . . all from scraps of fabric and batting on my cutting table . It is 3 - 1 / 2 " square . Gifts . They are a thorn in my side . I always feel like the gifts I give are inadequate . But I 'm doing my best and putting a lot of heart into them ! I made two of these Little ZZ runners as gifts . One for my girl , Elisabeth ( that I never posted a picture of finished ) , and one for someone else . The someone else hasn 't seen hers yet . It turned out so nicely that I decided to make one for a surprise for a woman at my church . I admire her very much . In fact , when I grow up , I want to be as selfless , kind , and loving as she . I am going to surprise her with this tomorrow . It is finished and measures 17 - 1 / 2 " x 23 - 1 / 2 " . Nothing quilt - y going on here , but I do have two new hairdos to show . I did the first one myself . It 's called a waterfall braid . I liked it . Would probably look better if I let my hair curl at the ends . The second one is quite hilarious . It didn 't turn out " quite " right . My hairdresser was a little exuberant to begin with . The best way to explain this is that one pulls up about 1 / 3 of her hair into a ponytail in the center of the top of the head . Then a French braid is done all around , pulling 2 / 3 of the hair from the outside and 1 / 3 from the ponytail ( leaving the ponytail holder in ) . It should have been braided much closer to the top and tighter , but it does give one a good laugh for the day . I 'm not going to say anything about it and see if my husband notices . It was a red - letter day for a few other reasons . I bought a blouse today . And a necklace . And earrings . I don 't remember all of those things happening in the same day ( OK - - the same year ) for as long as I can remember . You see , tomorrow is my husband 's Christmas party for his work , and I want to look my BEST . The above picture is not my best : ) , so I 'll press onward for a good hairstyle . I didn 't just buy any old earrings , I bought miniature chandeliers . My girls were shocked . I only wear very tiny , hardly noticeable earrings . . . until tomorrow ! ! ! Here 's the finished product on my new mantle idea for this year . We have a big , long , mantle . I am no decorator . I combined a couple ideas I saw here and there . Wes cut out and nailed everything all together for me . That 's my pine cone tree on the left side ( by the J ) spray painted gold . Here ' tis . . . This is what I started working on tonight . I got a pine cone piece splinter , and let me tell ya - - - - it hurt ! ! I had to stop . Since my adventure , I have found a better way to remove the pine cone pieces . Here you can see what I tried tonight . . . pruning shears , scissors , CHISELS ! ! None worked too well . Here I am gluing them onto my poster board shaped trees . I could wait no longer . Even though I 'm not finished covering the base ( due to the aforementioned splinter ) , I spray painted the bottom of this tree metallic gold . It . is . amazing . While I am not completely finished , I have made great progress . My desk is completely cleaned off and organized . I even set up my charging station for my iPod , phone , camera , and tablet ( back left corner ) . I have always set my lamp up on something , and the station itself is the perfect height . All things from the top have been put away . I had to do a slight repair on my December " Count on It " quilt . Where baby Jesus ' neck and " shirt " touch , the red showed through the flesh - colored fabric . I held my breath and cut into the quilt from the back , feeling like a textile surgeon . The operation was a success . AND I have a cleared - off chest of drawer top . This and the cedar chest are my two hot spots in this room that attract clutter . One of my sons and I have been sick for a week . Miserable existence , but it could be so much worse . I was feeling a little energy last night before bedtime , so I made a list of a few things to get done today . Then , drats , I only slept about an hour and got up until after 4 : 30 this morning . The 3rd thing on my list of 21 ( I stopped making the list at that point because it was becoming depressing and overwhelming ) was to finish arranging the flowers in the cone in my bathroom . Here is what the bathroom sink area looked like after we took down the big mirror and installed medicine cabinets WITH STORAGE ! ! After much deliberation , I purchased a floral cone made out of a thick wire - looking stuff that had been aged to rust and looked good . I had a dickens of a time getting something to look good IN it , however . This is what I came up with this AM : Then I topped it off by scrubbing our bathroom from stem to stern . Whew ! Now on to our bedroom ( which I constantly feel guilty about because it 's my " dumping ground " instead of a restful retreat ) . New purchase of craft supplies ? DUMP . New - to - us clothes from Goodwill that need washed ? DUMP . Paperwork ? DUMP . Bobbins , thimbles , etc . ? DUMP . Christmas decorations ( finished or in process that I don 't know where to put ) ? DUMP . Box for broken blender waiting to be returned ? DUMP . I 'm sure you get the picture . The center of the Little ZZ ( I think that stands for Zig Zag ) is finished . I am so done in . Whatever this is that has me by the throat ( literally ) is wearing me out . It 's like a cold that has all settled in my throat . Makes me cough a lot , and I 'm short of breath nearly all the time . Heaven forbid I have to WALK ! ! As usual , I sew first and think of a recipient later . I had several different people in mind . Now I know who it will be , but they don 't know it 's them , so I 'll keep the recipient a surprise for now . Here is the progress picture on my runner . I did it . I rearranged some of the blocks . I noticed in the sample picture that there are 3 - 5 blocks of one color in a row , so I f - o - r - c - e - d myself to do it . The top left corner is sewn together , and I have 3 more rows pieced to add later ( just lying quietly on the design wall ) . Off for an errand and might sew more later . My sweet 14 - year - old got her top braces off yesterday . We left our house at 7 : 30 and didn 't get home until 4 : 15 . I have been under the weather ( yes , that 's me coughing and hacking ) , so I was completely exhausted after all that running around . We went to Hobby Lobby for a couple specific things . I always peruse the quilt magazines while I 'm there . I saw this little runner ( 17 " x 23 " ) and decided to give it a go . It is a FREE pattern from Fons and Porter . I love free patterns . I cut out a bunch of strips this morning , sewed them together , subcut some units , and some triangles . Here is the quilt laid out on my design wall . It is in perfectly OCD rows of green and red zigzags . I tried to mix them up as I laid them out , but I . could . not . I sewed a bunch of strips up and ended up with about twice as many red units as green . One of the things that appealed to me about the original quilt 's picture is that the colors are all red and green , but they are mixed up . Can * I * do THAT ? ? I 'm gonna try before I call it a finished design layout . I want to be less perfectionist , but old habits die hard . Stay tuned . This is my latest hand - piecing project . It will be a very long and slow process , but I wanted to document it for myself for the future . I started by cutting up one brown and one cream ( for alternate squares ) . I have used 2 pinks so far . As I come across pieces large enough ( 5 - 1 / 2 " square ) of the creams for the alternate squares , I will add them to the pile . These are LeMoyne stars . I am making them all brown and pink with one cream background per block . If history repeats itself , I will have many fabrics represented by the time this is a finished quilt top . I am thinking of making a bed - sized quilt and quilting it by hand , so look for the finish in about 14 years . In the meantime , I 'm enjoying the hand piecing . I might even get all fancy and use some brown alternate squares or ( ! ) pink ones . Pink was the favorite color of one of my grandmothers . I 've never been fond of it , but I like it in these . Here is the other project I am working on today . . . machine quilting my green scrappy square shams to match my Christmas quilt ( which is on the bed as I type ) . I took my DH 's advice from the last time I nearly went blind quilting with matching thread and am quilting with the muslin on TOP instead of the usual backing location . It 's going well , and I might finish them today ! These are four fall candle holders . The Mod Podge ( MP ) is wet in the picture . They are quite pretty when dry . I know this because they were dry before I put on this last coat of stuff . Later I will post a picture of them with candles inside . This came about because someone asked me if I was " doing " Thanksgiving at my house . We made the decision some years ago that we would always stay home for Thanksgiving ( barring any very unusual circumstances ) . We invite others who are not traveling to see their families and take in single college students that would otherwise be alone for the day . It 's usually a big ordeal . Well , this same person asked me what I was using to decorate . The question took me by surprise , so I answered , " Food . " I truly hadn 't thought about it . What is more beautiful than a bountiful buffet including a wide array of desserts ? I knew I 'd be cooking all day Wednesday as well as Thursday morning right up to the 20 - minute feast . It did get me thinking , however . I had pinned a picture of a clear glass jar that had fall leaves Mod Podged to it . It was made by a CHILD ! ! How easy could that be ? It was actually quite frustrating . They had left out a few pertinent details . The most important ( but unmentioned ) was that a large - mouthed jar was necessary . At least something you can get your hand down into ( for placing the candle ! ) . I tried a regular - sized canning jar . No go . I peeled off my leaves ( which was easy because the stinkin ' things didn 't stick in the first place ) and washed the jar . I eventually found out these important steps : Gather a variety of leaves in both color and size . You might have a tiny space that needs a little more color . We have some great leaves around here . Rachel was getting them for me as we came home from an errand . We saw a magnificent red - leaved tree in someone 's yard ( fairly close to the house ) . I told her to ring the bell and ask them first in case they looked out the window and saw her making off with their leaves . When Rachel asked how many she could have , the lady said , " Take them all ! " Hahaha . . . that 's someone who does NOT like to rake ! One must " press " the leaves to dry them and make them perfectly flat before using the MP to hold them to the jar . I did this by layering them in an old phone book ( the one I use for paper - piecing foundations , incidentally ) . The first batch was pressed for 3 days because I was out of town . I did a batch last night for just a few hours , and they were divine . Place something heavy on the book or whatever to really PRESS them . Make sure your leaves are not too thick . I had some fabulous green leaves ( I don 't know which kind . . . not magnolia - - I 'm not that stupid ! ) that refused to bend around the jars curved surface . See the little white string in the above picture in the lower right - hand corner ( in the shadow of the MP bottle ? ) ? That 's waxed dental floss . I would not be outdone by a recalcitrant leaf , so after applying more MP to the outer surface of the leaf , I wrapped the dental floss around the jar to keep the stem and top of the leaf in place ( ha ! take that you stupid leaf ! ) . Victory was mine . Later I carefully unwrapped the string and put another coat of MP on . At first I thought I 'd just use canning jars I had here . That idea quickly went south because I didn 't have any wide - mouthed ones . I didn 't want to buy any jars either . Ironically enough , as I was leaving yesterday to take my daughter to her piano lesson , I texted her teacher that if she was just about to throw away a large - mouthed clear jar , save it for me . . . I was on my way . Ironically enough , she WAS about to pitch a salsa jar . It was PERFECT ! I also repurposed two natural peanut butter jars . Since we switched to a mostly whole foods diet over a year ago , we don 't buy much stuff in jars . Another sacrifice on my part ( I 'm such a martyr ) . My fourth jar IS a wide - mouthed canning jar , but I only had the one . I purposely used 4 different sized jars . The perfectionist in me just had to let that detail go ! Gonna hafta do something about those pillow shams . The red behind them are our regular pillow cases . Even if they were the right size , I am not liking the dark cream . It 's one of my favorite Thimbleberries creams , but it just looks weird . Maybe something green would be better ? That 's my plan ! The brass towel rings are next ! Bwahaha . . . I feel like a villain with a can of spray paint . It 's empowering . Here 's a pic of the newly - painted light fixture : When the lights are ON , it 's so bright that the fixture looks lighter than it really is . It looks better and darker in person . The finish perfectly matches the mirrored cabinet frames . Here is light off : One good thing about taking it down was seeing how it was put up . it just has one hole in the center for wiring . The downside is that when I went to Lowe 's yesterday for ceiling paint , I looked at light fixtures . I think the one I liked was $ 90 . . . and we need two ! I also looked at ORB towel racks . Not for $ 22 each , thank you very much . I 'll just spray paint our rings and see how that goes first . Where o where did the light fixture go ? O where , o where could it be ? In the garage , drying after being spray painted oil - rubbed bronze to match the mirror frames ! I put a space heater next to it and am rotating it , so it 's nearly dry ! Yippee ! Please note the burn marks on the ceiling from the 8 light bulbs in the fixture . They will soon be gone . . . maybe even today ! But most likely before the weekend . I have been reading horror stories about painting on an old popcorn ceiling ( which is what this is ) , but I 'm going to put paintbrush in hand and hope for the best ! Purely for your amusement , I am sharing the picture of my grapevine lightning bolt in our newly updated ( somewhat ) bathroom . I wanted a random shape that was not round . This usually hangs above the robe / PJ bar to the left of my sink . Hahahahaha : I hung it with an easily removable Command hook that was very tiny . It 's too much brown and not enough substance . I still like it in the long , thin space above the hanging bar though . Back it will go . I like the things I 've collected / bought , so I like to " shop my own house " when I 'm looking for a decoration . FWIW , I 'm also going to paint the light fixture with oil - rubbed bronze paint . We will probably put in other light fixtures above each mirrored cabinet at some point , but to make it less BRIGHT BRASS , I am going to paint it . The thing is , it got soooo cold yesterday that I think it 's too cold to paint in the garage . I am going to give it a try anyway , and use a space heater until it 's dry . I 'd like to do that tomorrow , but we 'll see . Time will tell ! I will paint the hinges on the cabinet below the sinks at the same time . The knobs are a combination of very little brushed brass and ORB finish , so I 'm going to leave them as is . Our bathroom is finished for now , but is in need of some decor for between the mirrors . I thought a wreath would be lovely , but since the mirrors are oval , that would be repeating the shape too much . Any suggestions ? I love dried flowers , grapevine wreaths , quilts ( haha - - who would 've guessed ? ) , etc . My husband is just THE best . I have been asking him if we could take down a big , flat mirror in our bathroom ( behind the double sinks ) and put up some mirrored cabinets ( for storage , you know ) . He asked me if I wanted to go look at them ( again ) last night . I had resigned myself to not getting them for at least a month ( we are acting our wage , incidentally ) . To my great surprise , we brought two new mirrored medicine cabinets home last night . Another great surprise was the answer to the burning question . . . " did I paint behind the big , flat mirror when we moved in here , or did I go the easy route and leave it green ? " Wes ( being the eager beaver that he is ) took down the mirror while I was taking Rachel to the flea market to peddle her biscuits and coffee . That explains why my " before " picture does not have the ugly , flat , too - small mirror in it . Yes ! I HAD painted behind the mirror . The smoke signal in the middle is where I burned a candle and had it set too close to the back wall . The smoke will not scrub off . I tried every cleaner I had plus an extra - large dose of elbow grease , and no change . My sweetums also fixed a drawer in our bathroom that up until today never closed . See second picture , second drawer down . That 's nearly 7 years of not closing . Instead of just standing around and waiting for the paint to dry ( ha ha ) , I scrubbed the white window blinds that are to the right of the counter above . One spot of cleanliness does surely lead to others . Future plans include painting the countertop and backsplash ( yes , I am giving it a try ) , recaulking the sinks , and painting the cabinets in there . Very ambitious , but I am loving the improvements already . My Christmas shower curtain is finished . Lined , buttonholed , everything ! No picture . I have been piecing a backing for my first Christmas quilt gift . It has been coming along swimmingly . Check it out on my secret blog . I just have to add the last printed piece on the right and then line it . There will not be any batting . I will sew 3 sides and then turn it right side out . Then I attach binding to the top of the curtain just like a quilt ( only on one side ) . Then 12 evenly - spaced buttonholes . No quilting either , so I 'm nearly finished ! My Christmas shower curtain is coming along . I have 3 of the 7 verticle sections sewn together . You can get an idea of how it looks here , pinned to my existing curtain . I have all the panels sewn , just need to sew them to each other , line it , and make those 12 crucial buttonholes . So , I 'll have another pieced panel , a print panel , a pieced panel , then end with a print panel . This uses up every last inch of the Christmas print . I just started using a new system for remembering about a week ago . It 's collosal . . . it 's life - changing . . . I 'm calling it " writing it down on paper " . I was trying to remember how big different runners and wall hangings that I made my girls were . So before I gave Elisabeth this wall hanging to take to Wisconsin , I measured it AND WROTE IT DOWN . I wrote down the measurements of Emily 's table runner . Even when making the shower curtain above , I am constantly having to make calculations then remembering them . Funny thing . . . the weakest ink is stronger than the greatest memory . Recently I was shocked to find out that my husband LOVES Christmas decorations at our house . He even said something like , " I 'd leave them up all year if I could . " I made us a Christmas bed quilt this year ( just finished recently ) that has its own story ( click the underlined words to read all the posts about the quilt ) . That led to buying inexpensive but perfect red valances to match the quilt . Few know that our shower has a quilt for a curtain ! I patterned it after one I saw in a magazine years ago . I made it when we moved in here 6 - 1 / 2 years ago . Here it is . . . I needed about 70 " of the focus fabric ( which is not pictured ) . It was still on a bolt foundation on my shelf . I didn 't know how much was there . . . it didn 't look like much ! 72 " ! ! ! Just enough ! ! Finished the hand quilting on this mini . I quilted it to death . I like to use matching thread when possible and in certain instances . I am including a picture so you can see where I quilted the straight lines since they are in matching thread and difficult to see .

Fabio , I think it 's great that you are giving us this much help for the final , and with such an opinion I am dissatisfied with my own preparation - - but no worries ! Joshua and I shall rise and prevail . Honestly though , you could see so much improvement within the groups that went today pre - Fabio help and post - Fabio help . I think the idea that there is a verb behind each line is a great concept . Also - - doing the guessing game was a fun activity as well . Crazy that next week is our last , huh ? Kinda sad , kinda spooky , kind of . . . kinky ? You decide . so the final . i think its good working on it today in class because it shows us what we are doing wrong / right it is also constructive critizism . well i 've got a ton of work to do . anyone understand hamlet ? well i gotta write that paper ! : ) good luck on finals ! I thought in class today it was nice to watch the groups that went do thier skits because it helped me get ideas for our skit . What to do , how to deliver the aciton on each line . Also i thought dane and kelsy did a great job today in class . What a skit lol I also missed writing for the last class . Tuesday i impressed myself with my improving skills double whiz - bang . When the double game started , i was really apprehensive and overwhelmed by the intensity of the game . The more we play the better i get at it . The last two classes i was in the final 5 - 6 people , and a few times i was one of the very last people playing . It is awesomeToday was really informative . Once i performed my scene and got a lot of feedback , i feel very confident . I do feel as if i am taking too much control over the scene and i need to talk more with megan to get her views on the project . For those of you who have not done you scene yet , do a little bit of practicing to make sure that everybody is on the same page with the story line . I am really looking forward to the final performance . I forgot to post for todays class so this post will cover for both , too bad I won 't get credit for the one I missed though . When we first got our scenes I thought to myself , how are we going to be able to make a scene out of seeven lines . But , after listening to Fabio talk about the groups that had to present , I relalized that we can make every line mean so much , even to the point where we are presenting a small play almost . This is because we have a story and a reason behind each line that we say . It was interesting to watch the girls today and how their scene kept on developing because Fabio was able to keeping adding to the lines . Not to the story , but to the meaning of each line , like how and why she is saying it . I definitely agree that this time exercise was a lot more difficult then I thought at first . I guess it is a testament to how different human beings are as creatures that made it so hard to act out something that is a universal behavior at a given time period . I did think it was interesting though that the easiest ones seemed to be around the time people normally eat breakfast , lunch , and dinner . But yea , it was a fun little exercise and definitely expanded my little brain into a realm which it hasn 't delved into in a long time . . . . a long time . I learned something new from Tuesday class that I think helped me understand acting a little better . When I was doing the " time of day " exercise and I reacted to the situation as the way I would instead of how others would in order to get across the time of day it made me realize that i need to look at things in many different perspectives before actually deciding what to do when I am acting . It makes sense to do things from my own perspective because thats all I know but when I did that it made it difficult for the anyone to know what I time it was . That class taught me to put myself in the average persons shoes and react to situations from that . Well I just got done watching one of the greatest movies ever made . . . The Marine starring John Cena . I think it would be really cool if we learned how to do stunts in class . Maybe I 'll do some in my final . I enjoyed Tuesday 's class because I never realized how difficult it would be to show what time of day it was . I didn 't really know what to do so I was just trying to be as real as possible , Grand Canyon and all . But really I 'm also looking forward to practicing my skit . I 'm trying to memorize lines and trying to be as real as possible and it 's going alright . these last few weeks have gone by fast . . the semester is almost over and it seems like we just got back to school a few weeks ago . The end of the semester is going to be tough , but practicing our final is going to be fun . After this semester its going to be hard not having this class anymore . Its a relief every morning after statistics to come to this class . I thought class on tuesday was very helpful for me to understand more of our final . When i had to go outside and come back in with chris within two lines you could tell there was more of a story there . So i think the final will be good in showing a story in such short lines . I am looking foward to it . And Carbone if you read this you betta GET OUT THE PAINT when we have the big man game ! ! ! Dave and I were talking about our scene ( during our night class , but whatev ) and I 'm kind of excited to get into it . The thought of creating a whole history between 2 people with just 10 lines or whatever is kind of cool . And like I look forward to class , I 'm looking forward to this final . It 's my last one , and not to say it 'll be easy ( because I know it won 't ) but it 's a different type of preparation that 'll mellow me out from the rest of finals week . Class was fun today , it was a lil difficult initially to come up with ideas . Moreover , the varied ideas I had were enacted by three people before I finally went up , so I had to keep changing the time . Whew ! ! Anyway , am looking forward to the finals , dunno how am gonna go about seducing AJ : ) ) And moreover , I have to write reams of paper to be able to seduce him well . What a world ! ! the final seems hard . mitch and i got together today to work on it and we couldnt figure out number 6 . oh well i guess we 'll find out on thursday . everyone did a good job today presenting . hope everyone had a great thanksgiving ! : ) the thanksgiving break was very nice . It was nice just to get away from school for a while . I agree with carbone that it seems we have a lot of papers to type up and it seem weird that we would need to . I guess i just dont think about typing up papers for the final scene , but it will help us make our skit better I just want everyone to agree with me how this final project seems like it 's a lot of work . A lot of papers are needed to be typed up for this . Way too many papers . Had a sweet break , i 've gotta go get an omlet . . . STAY OUT THA PAINT Hmmm , break was both pleasant and painful for me . Painful in that I had a ton of work to do most of it was catching up stuff but the ham and turkey were great ! My son came home but did stick around much and I found out he has a 1 . 2 average for the quarter . What a bummer . The final skit is going to be fun , even if it require a lot of pre - work to do it . I am reminded of something my former boss told me though . . . . Remember the 7 P 's : ProperPriorPlanningPreventsPissPoorPreformanceSee you all this morning . I have come up with some ideas as to what I want to do for my final project . I really like what I 've come up with and I haven 't really even looked over it to much . I look forward to going through it tomorrow because I want to be able to get a good grasp of how it will go . I honestly can 't really remember what we did in class on Tuesday . . . . meetings ? It 's tricky trying to map out a scene without consulting your partners first and having it work out as the scene happens . Luckily we can figure things out with our partners ahead of time for our final ( which , by the way , if it was a contest - Dave and I would be all over # 1 ) was not long enough . . . and as usual i got to do my usual acting of no i really do enjoy your company with some of my family members : D don 't get me wrong im thankful that i have my family cause there are kids out there who have nobody , but there are some people in my family , mainly on my mom 's side , that don 't rub me the right way , my mom 's brother and his wife especially . they moved across the state and kind of disappeared for a while and then they come back and wanda accuses me of looking down my cousin 's shirt . ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME ! ! that was like 3 or 4 Christmas ' ago and then they kind of disowned me . I can see my aunt trying to make an effort but its really pathetic and i don 't really want to talk to any of them so i just screw on my little smile and act politely towards them until i am out the door . there is just so much going on and im ready for this semester to be OVER . Well turkey break went way too fast . . . I didn 't do any hmwk at all over break and now I 'm paying for it . I think our final is going to be a lot harder than I first thought . After the first group did their run through on Tuesday and Fabio had all those suggestions there is alot more thinking that goes into it than I had first thought . I thought the Star Wars thing was kinda confusing but funny . . . sorry had to say it : ) I am utterly shocked that Fabio do not like our Star Wars skit featuring Darth Hale . The improv force grip by Max Julian and myself was outstanding . I 'm kidding , I know that we didn 't do what we were supposed to do at all . But the dialogue was great . I am also glad that Behrooz and I were the guinea pigs of the final project . Now we have a step up on all the other groups . So , thank you Fabio for choosing us . last day of school and we had class before break . couldnt wait until the class was over because that ment I was done for the day ! : ) anyhow . . im looking forward to the final . it seems hard but i know we will all make it through . happy thanksgiving ! I saw part of that Brady Quinn commercial . I missed the beginning and I think I may have missed Fabio . I 've been looking for it all night and I can 't find it . Happy Thanksgiving ! ! ! Am looking forward to the finals . But don 't like the idea of dissecting our character and place utilization . Wish we didnt have the paper . Anyways , have a wonderful Thanksgiving all . I am excited about the final . There is a lot more to think about than i thought there would be . I think i have a pretty good idea who my character is and his relationship to the other character . I do not think it is going to be hard for others to figure out our relationship either . There is a good bit of drama in the relationship and it should be good . I have a weird feeling that a lot of people are going to be very serious characters in the final . I do not believe that there is going to by much comedy . With these lines that we have , i feel like it would be hard to make it humorous . good luck to everyone I must disagree with the common opinion about the play last week . I thought it was well performed by the actors , and the songs were pretty good too . Most people disliked the play for different reasons but I thought it was good and i thoroughly enjoyed it . I was impressed by the actors and I thought that with the budget that the theater department had , the set was good . im kinda nervous about this final because i have to agree with AJ this is all quite sudden . i mean the only thing we did all year was pretend that we were dealing with objects and reacting to other people , places , or things and now out of nowhere we have to write 2 page bios of our characters describing our life story only with the detail that affects the scene and is has to go along with the relation of our partners character . I also feel like my scene limits me because one of my lines is " ok i 'm going to continue with my washing now " so i don 't really have the freedom of being anywhere because i could be doing laundry or taking a shower or whatever . hopefully me and Jason can pull it off . There is one thing that I really like about our final project and that is the freedom to make everything up except the lines . Its going to be really hard , and i 'm not expecting us to be able to do this , but to be able to describe everything that has led to this scene without tell the audience . Such as where we are coming from . What our relationship is to this person . All that stuff is going to be very difficult to convey . I aslo can 't wait for break . We all go for so long without any break , people should respect the hell out of us . Ok well I totally messed up that last attempt to writting a blog so here is my real one . Class on Thursday went well when talking about the musical and all . Since we didnt really do anything pertaining to acting that class , I am going to talk about the Browns and what an amazing win they had this weekend . I about pissed my pants when they actually one a game and had the right calls made for them , it was almost a miracle . I am also very excited for this break that we have coming up for the good old gobble day . It is such a great time of the year to have a break and spend some time with the fam . Well my time is done here and I will see everyone in class later today . . . Well I thought that our Thursday class went well . Nothing like basking a play to get everyone 's spirit 's up . I 'm looking forward to rehearsing our play scenes in class hopefully tommorow . But I 'm way more excited about Thanksgiving Break . I 've probably been ready for it since Halloween . P . s . Go Browns Amazing win Last Thursday in class we witnessed a spectacular bash session of The Secret Garden . . . All things aside I thought it was pretty good . I think I could have done it , however I would have requested to have an entrance coming from a church and an exit headed for a brothel . I think it would have really enhanced the experience . As Megan noted , the Browns game was absolutely nuts ! I felt happy , sad , confused , aroused , hungry , embarrassed , and startled all bundled up into one ! After our discussion of The Secret Garden , I think I 've decided that should I ever be in any production , I 'm not going to invite AJ to watch it ; he 'll rip it to shreds . And Dave Stuck won 't be allowed to come if one of my children is in a play - he 's just mean . On a different note , ADPi semi formal was on Saturday and was a lot of fun , and despite me being insanely tired , I 'm watching the Brown 's game right now , and I must say : that was some crazy field goal action at the end of the 4th . I def liked hearing everyone 's opinions about the play . The discussion actually helped me understand the play a lil more and I found out the meaning of some things I didn 't know before . I def . didnt have a complete understanding the play but now its a lil clearer . I hope everyone has a delicious turkey break : ) I can 't wait to eat food yay I liked hearing everyone 's opinions on the play . I personally really liked it . There were a lot more negative comments about the play than i thought there would be . I enjoyed this play much more than " Into the Woods . " Also , i think that each night had a different reaction to it . The night i went , the play went by really smoothly and everybody did a great job . Other nights may have not been as good . I know the first night there were problems with the lighting and a few of the other nights there were different actors . I guess that is something that you have to deal with when you are involved in a big production like this one . Today in class we talked about the play . i didnt enjoy the play because there was too much singing . i agreed with AJ with most of the stuff he said . otherwise i really enjoyed the first play much better than this . the final seems hard , but i hope we can make it through it ! : ) Yes I agree , the snow this morning is awesome ! Tuesday was kind of nice because we didn 't have class but at the same time I missed not having class because it is usually so fun . The final should be a good time , I really want to do a Star Wars theme but I 'm afraid the professor will get pissed off and we will get a bad grade even though it would be serious and we wouldn 't be playing to the crowd . . . But that is about all I have today . . . Hope the snow start to catch on the ground , love the snow . . . okay i was just super excited that it is snowing right now . Its kinda like really wet snow but its still sweet . So yea I 'm excited about the final , it should be fun to make up our own who what where and see where it takes us and how different it is than the other group that has the same lines . I 'm kinda sad we didn 't have class Tuesday , this is actually a class I look forward to just because its so much fun . But I did get to sleep in so I guess that was worth it . I 'm not going to lie , tuesday was probably the best day I 've had all semester long . Because of the convocation I didnt have any class . I was able to get a lot of stuff done and not have to worry about being at class at a specific time . It 's good to have a day off like that during the week because sometimes the weekends get real busy and they dont always seem like weekends . Hopefully it will happen again very soon . Even though I love going to this acting class and it is the class I have the most fun in , I thoughly enjoyed the day off today . It was a well needed break from the everyday classes . I had the opportunity to catch up on some work tha t I needed to get down and to start on the paper that is due on Thursday in this class . I will let you know about how I felt about the play in the paper that way I dont have to write it down twice . I have a stupid paper to write and I 'm not done reading the f - ing book . Crap . Anyway - I saw the play Saturday night , and although it wasn 't one of my faves , I definitely think the cast was really talented . It 's kind of cool to contrast the difference in acting between dramas and musicals . Personally , I like plays better because they 're easier to relate to . And I wasn 't as good at musicals . So that 's my piece for the week . So i saw the play Thursday night , and it was OK but , not what i expected . I saw it when there was a change in the characters , because one happened to get sick . The replacement did a good job under the circumstances . The story line was weird at first because it just immersed you into the storyline without explaining it fully . SO i enjoyed it , but i liked the other play better . Other than that the weekend was good . I went to the AP semi - formal which was alot of fun . But it was also another long night . The Browns lost and that made me mad , they are still better than the Steelers . Posted by Okay so i didnt know if I was supposed to blog even though we didn 't have class but I am going to anyways . I went and saw the play Friday . It was hard to understand what the story line was at first just because the beginning of the play was mostly singing and my seat was pretty far back away from the stage so it was hard to understand what they were singing about . Other than that I really enjoyed the play and once I understood what it was about , I liked it even more . I thought it was more interesting than the first play I went to . i am pretty excited that we dont have class on tuesday , because it will give me time to write my paper thats due on thursday . they play was confusing to me at first but then it stratightened out a little . i just wish there would have been them running through doors like carbone and bray , thats funny and they did such a good job My personal favorite door scene was when Carbone ran up to the automatic door . That was awesome and very well played . It was like a comedic pause in a very serious moment , however , it was not like he was trying to be funny because that was really what he would have done . Good job Carbone . I 'm really pumped about our final scene because they will be so short and it is going to be very difficult to be able to convey who , what , where and why in that short of time . It will be a great challenge . I loved the door excercise . It was so challenging , which made it great . I love this class and i 'm pretty pumped for our finals . I 'm not trying to brag but we all know that me and stucky 's final will be a force to be reckonned with , so what i 'm trying to say is STAY OUT THE PAINT ! ! I am looking forward to our final . I think it will be a good time for everyone to display all their skills that we have learned thus far . We have some good ideas for our situation and Meg and i are gonna whoop some be - hind . . . this is the first day of the year where i actually had to buckle down and do work . it was terrible . actually , im not complaining , i 've had a really easy time so far this year , stress - free and mermaids everywhere . But i have an interview tommorow , which is going to take some hardcore acting on my part . im gonna have to act like a mermaid and pretend to be a good studious young boy . i 'm sure i 'll be alright though . dueces . I really liked the door excercise we did on tuesday . It was probably the hardest excercise I 've taken part of so far . It was difficult to show everybody else wat we were doing and where we were coming from without the use of any props . I mean I started off not doing well and not being able to show what I wanted everyone to see but I think I eventually got better ; at least I hope I did . Well I have no reason for being happy , I just am . I have a feeling that class on Tuesday has a bit to do with it . I was laughing so hard just because class was so fun and entertaining . Thursdays class I hope will bring me the same anount of fun . I don 't really know what to write about for Tuesday . I didn 't get a chance to do the last exercise yet , but I 'm on to a good idea if we do it again tomorrow . I like the add - in exercises , though . I find myself jumping in more often and more willingly than I was at the beginning of the semester . I 'd really like to be in an AU production before I graduate , but timing right now 's an issue . But I 'd be so pumped if someone from the class got in . Good luck , guys ! if i could think of one line that would sum up my entire semester in this acting class it would have to be " FBI ! POP , POP , POP ! " i almost pissed myself . i have to say that this is and probably will be one of my most favorite classes i will ever take . I am looking forward to my entrance and exit exercise tomorrow . I also can 't believe i got eliminated from double whiz bang yesterday . I have never been eliminated before so props to whoever got me . I likes the entrance and exit activities . I think it is weird doing nothing in the middle " neutral " area . It hard to show where you are leaving from and where you are going without something in the middle to display whats going on . But , I think it is a useful activity because in a real scene , everybody has to enter somehow and exit somehow and try to make it as realistic as possible . Our exercises are going in a great direction . Adding in improv take everything to a whole new level because we now have to be able to feed off of what the other person says are does , despite how ridiculous it may be . I believe the key to be able to be good at this is too completely block out the audience . You have to acknowledge them because when they laugh you have to be able to stop and then pick up right where you left off . But to be able to become the character and embrace your surroundings , you have to block out the audience . If you are always waiting for the audience 's reaction then you are not focused on the scene itself . todays class was fun , i liked how the scene could just change instantly as soon as another person came up and said something differently . but on the other hand , it made things more complicated . speaking of complicated , the entrance and exit this was hard . very hard . but we 'll get through it . oh and this snow is rediculous . . . i cant wait until summer when it is going to be warm again ! i hate this cold weather ! It 's interesting to watch everyone 's compfort level go up and up . Double whiz bang is very confusing , I was amazed that I lasted until the end . I am looking forward to seeing the rest of the skits today . I believe class is going great . I feel that it is still getting better as the year progresses . Even though people are not trying to be funny , it always ends up being pretty darn hilarious . It makes my days turn into great days just because of how much I laugh during the time of that class . Im excited about having class tommorow . I really enjoyed the drill we did when we had to come up with everything on our own . It allowed us to show our creative side so that was fun . I hope that we can do it again during class on tuesday . And in case you missed it Browns won in overtime against the Seahawks . 5 - 3 baby ! ! ! ! First off , I 'm sorry for missing class Megan . Second of all , I hope that we get to do our skit tomorrow in class because I think it will be fun . I think it will be really hard to have to improv and be concious about all the invisible objects at the same time . Hmmm , what else . Blood Diamond is an amazing movie just so you all know . And if you have not seen it , I highly recommend it . Thats all I got . Even though my partner was really cool and decided to not show up to class on Thursday ( just kidding , AJ ) I think my sister had a good time . It was kind of weird because I was thinking about how I would have to act in front of her , and I got a little nervous . I don 't know if it 's just because it 's Beck and she knows me so well , or if it 's the thought of having a real audience besides classmates - either way , it was odd I was worried at all because I 've done plays before - in front of an audience with strangers and my fam . I shouldn 't be afraid of my little sister , anyway , but as you guys saw ( or most of you * cough * AJ ) she outgrew me like , 10 years ago . So this weekend was good and a long night Friday night , but on Saturday it was just a lazy night . I got to go down with Phi Kappa Psi to do community service and paint the inside of a house it was alot of fun . I can 't wait to do my scene it will be great . Of course wiz bang is still one of the best games to do in the morning . Class scheduling is driving me crazy the school isn 't offering me anything in my major next year its killing me . Well i can 't wait for class tomorrow and the browns won and are 5 and 3 a half game behind the steelers . I think the skits we have been doing in class are really showing how much we have learned and it gives us an opportunity to use all of the lilttle activities we did just focusing on single aspects of acting and putting them all into effect at once . It is a lot harder than just doin that simple activities that focus on one thing but the skits are very beneficial especially in preparing for the final . I think everyone is doing a good job so far I went tonight for the musical , and really enjoyed it a lot . It was a totally different genre than the play we saw earlier . The musical made the novel come alive . i thought the skits in class on thursday were pretty good . When fabio said not to say what object your talking about , i didnt even think about it that i was saying it , i was just having a conversation with dave , but i guess i did do too much telling instead of just reacting to what was going on . But i hope to continue thses skits . I enjoyed watching all the skits today . And I felt Bill and Mitch did a really good job , the conversation just flowed and they complemented each other quite well . Improvisation is good , but I was wondering what happens when actors get these pages of dialogues and they have to be true to it . Must be difficult I guess . our scene was sweet . i enjoyed doing it and i thought it went fairly well . mike and i were thinking about how it would be better off going first , that way you get it over and done with and you have nothing else to compare to . i think i will try to start doing that way . . . glad this week is about over , Thursdays are nice . . Friday classes suck because of the 730am class . . but i guess thats nothing compared to the weekdays mornings . . . I love improv . Im so glad that we 're doing it again . Bray and Max were hilarious . I cant wait to go today . I really think that Improv is probably the best part of acting because there are no scripted lines and you are just using your god given abilitys i think the skits we are doing are very fun . they are fun but yet we have to make sure we touch all the objects in our skits . And we have to make sure the objects are the same size and height . i really enjoyed the first two skits . Max and brays was pretty good , and i thought they did a good job of making sure they went to each object . They flowed very well with their objects in their skit . I am looking forward to watching the other skits today ! So i have determined that god has been hazing me for some reason lately . I have so much homework to do and i still haven 't gotten the results of my blood tests yet and i would like to because i would love to know why i feel like $ h ! t constantly no matter how much i rest i get or how much I eat or drink . My dad is on the verge of losing his job which possibly means us moving to Toledo and i don 't want to move to Toledo . So then i get a phone call from my mom this morning at 7 : 26am and i look at the clock from my bed and im like WTF . so i lay there and let it go and she doesn 't leave me a voicemail and so i get curious . I get up and use the bathroom , take out my retainer , and pick up my cell and call her back . She answers and i go whats up mom and she says are you sitting down . WOW I JUST LOVE THOSE PHONE CALLS ! >:\ so after my heart stopped for like a minute i was like ok im sitting . she goes on to tell me about how my dog candy ( who i had since i was 10 years old ) got hit by a car and was killed last night . Im thinking to myself can things seriously get any worse . My brother was a wreck and didn 't want to go to school i could tell my mom had probably been crying all night . My father i guess hadn 't said a word and just wanted to be left alone and he has his court case against the police department tonight and i just felt so bad because i am so close to a breakdown right now that i sounded and felt like i didn 't really care . i mean i really do and im sure when i go home and she is not there i will break down but im so dead right now i can 't stand it . Im really looking forward to class today and im hoping that max julian will put on a wonderful performance because i need something to cheer me up for god sakes . so if you guys see me you know flash a smile , say hey , or just ask me how things are going because i really just need people to give me some positive support right now . Double whiz bang was totally nuts . Never knew that the whiz could get you insane in the membrane like dat . Anyways , I thought that Tuesday 's class was hilarious . The sitcom type scenarios were awesome , especially Bray 's and Max 's . It 's crazy how much it can add to a scene when one of the characters wants something that is hard for them to get , like when Fabio told Bray to act like he wanted to watch the movie too . Totally crazdiculous . Alright , all I have to say is that ADPis Gone Wild is pure fiction . At least there 's no documented proof that I know of . And I 'm really pumped to bring my little sister to class tomorrow . She 's basically my alter ego and says all the stuff I 'd like to , but I would get in trouble for . Right now we 're capping off Halloween by watching White Noise after our fricken 2 . 5 hour drive back from Marietta . . . .

Here I am wearing the same outf t . You 'll notice the sweater si too big now , where before it was a bit sn g . Also , I 've lost a bit in my chest ar You guys . I managed to go on vacation , drink a couple glasses of wine , eat fries , and still did not gain weight ! I actually LOST weight ! I am down 57 lbs total . I am so proud of myself ! I worked out almost every day of the trip and made fairly good choices throughout the week . I only had one " cheat meal " , which was a fried shrimp sandwich on buttered bread and fries . I did have fries a couple times during other meals , but always ordered my fish grilled and usually swapped the fries for a veggie or baked potato . I 'd say the hardest part was snacking . It is so easy to chow down on snacks on the beach . I was careful , grabbing a handful of cashews here and there . Luckily I packed healthy snacks , so I usually went for those . Another thing ? I craved sweets MUCH more than I do at home . I wanted ice cream , candy , chocolate - anything ! But I only ate ice cream twice , and once was one of this mini Ben and Jerry 's . I am quite proud of how I did on this trip . But I do have to share something with you guys . At one point during the trip , I had a pretty rough night . It all started because I saw a picture of myself from the beach in my bathing suit . And I hated the way I looked . I was embarrassed and felt disgusting . I began to cry , and wondered if I would EVER like the way I look , if I will ever feel confident and appreciate my body . Luckily , My parents were there for the breakdown . And they assured me that I looked fine , that I need to remember how far I have come , and that I should be proud of myself . My mom joked that NO woman looks good in a bathing suit . And the very next day ? There was an article on Thought Catalog about how bathing suits are the worst article of clothing ever . I began to feel a little bit better . I know I will have those moments again . But I also know I can push past them . I can look at before and after pictures like the one above and see how far I have come . That is a real receipt from almost exactly a year ago . I purchased a hot dog and a peanut butter bash sundae from DQ . It wouldn 't be so bad if it was just a one time , indulgent snack . But that trip through the dairy queen drive through was a weekly , sometimes twice weekly , ordeal . If it wasn 't Dairy Queen , it was McDonald 's or Wendy 's or a snack from the work vending machine . And then I 'd come home and have a full dinner , usually paired with a couple glasses of wine . And then I 'd snack for the rest of the evening . That is so not me anymore . I am human and have temptations , but I can 't tell you the last time I swung through a drive thru just because I wanted a snack . My portion sizes are much smaller and my choices are healthier . Instead of constantly thinking about food and where I will get my next treat from , I am thinking about work or Tom or the gym . When it comes to food I think about the dinner I have waiting at home or which veggies I need to pick up from the store for my newest recipe . It has been almost a full year since I began this journey . I don 't have the exact date , but it was sometime in late May / early June . A lot changes in a year ! There 's a lot to say in this letter , little guy . I just spent a lot of time with you - 9 whole days in Florida . I learned a lot about you . And , I already miss you . It was amazing to spend so much time with you , to watch you play . It 's only been two days since I last saw you , and I already miss my buddy . Your first trip to Florida was a huge success . You LOVED the beach . You ran up and down the sand , splashed the water , played with bigger kids , and giggled as we each took turns building sandcastles with you and dipping your toes in the water . You also went in the pool with your mom and dad . It was thrilling to watch you with them . You trusted them as they dunked you under . The look on your face was priceless . You were in true bliss . We also watched you run around on the grass , playing baseball , blowing bubbles , etc . You were just SO happy , Ryan . So happy to be free and running around . You were so excited about everything , and watching you discover new things and places was just so much fun . I had a smile on my face every time we were together . The days were pretty much the same . We would play with you on the beach for a while , and then we would take you up for your lunch . We took turns sitting with you while you napped . When you woke up , we 'd either go back outside , or play in the condo until dinner . After dinner , we would head back to the condo until your bedtime . We would watch Elmo at your request ( you soon learned that Elmo would play on everyone 's phones ) , play hockey , read books , play with the bubbles until you were ready for night night . and then , you would give everyone a hug and a kiss goodnight . I had the distinct honor of riding home with you . A full two days in the car . I have to admit , at first , I was not looking forward to it . As much as I love spending time with you , I was worried you wouldn 't be a happy boy , and that the ride home wouldn 't be so fun for any of us . But you were GREAT , Ryan . Sure , you got a little cranky now and then , but all of us did . You just sat and watched your Elmo . When you weren 't watching Elmo , I tried to make you laugh by letting you play with my fingers , tossing a ball back and forth , or other silly little games . At one point , you were reading a Sesame Street book . You kept asking me " what 's that " and pointing at Big Bird . You couldn 't quite say Big Bird , so you started saying " baba " . But then you started calling ME baba ! I was in the bathroom at one of our stops and you pounded on the door , yelling baba . Another time , at dinner , I walked away from the table and your mom and dad told me that you started asking for baba . I 'm not sure if this will last , but since you can 't say my name yet , I will take it ! I helped you fall asleep in the car by rubbing your foot . It worked - fast . You were instantly asleep . Once you even slightly woke up , and stuck your foot in my hand so that I would begin rubbing it again . I guess we know what to do to make you sleep ! Ryan , this trip was amazing . I loved every moment we had with each other . I loved watching you giggle at Uncle Jonathon and Aunt Sara when they were acting silly with you . I loved how much you trusted your mom and dad , and how you frequently gave your mommy kisses . I loved how you called out for Papa whenever you saw Grandpa Carolin or Grandpa Gumbel . I love how you want to " cheers " when we have cups in front of us . I love how you posed for pictures , how you let each of us love on you . I love how happy you were , and how happy you made each of us . It was truly a gift for each of us to be able to spend time with one another and with you . Very often on social media , I see young teens , specifically girls , claiming that celebs and stars " saved their life " . I cringe a little when I read that . But , I do admit , I used to be one of those girls . I am 100 % confident that I have said those exact words on numerous occasions about songs , lyrics , singers , books . In fact , I probably said this somewhat recently . You won 't hear me say it anymore , though . I have realized the truth . I am not saying it 's impossible that these celebs / singers / youtubers / whoever have inspired you . Maybe they said or sang something that hit home or made you feel less lonely . But they did not save your life . You did that . Perhaps they gave you the push or the drive that you needed , but the saving was all on your own . We should not rely on anyone , famous or not famous , to fix us or to save us . When we do that , we put them on a pedestal , we begin to idolize them and think they can do no wrong . We think everything they do is an act of God , and that they are perfect . And then maybe they do something that lets us down , and our whole world crashes . YOU are the reason that you are still here . You are the reason you stopped self harming . You made the smart , and conscious decision , to begin to live your life in peace and to stop listening to those stupid voices in your head that try to tell you you 're not good enough . Kiddo , you are more than good enough . You are worthy of love . You are worthy of SELF love . If you have overcome depression , self harm , or suicidal thoughts , I give you a huge standing ovation . That is a major accomplishment . You should be proud , you have been so brave and fought hard . But please , don 't give a celebrity all of the credit . Recognize the strength in yourself , and give yourself a pat on the back . You did it . You are a life saver of your very precious life . Take care of it from now on . Be gentle . If you are stopping by from the A - Z challenge , please note that I have decided to quit the challenge . I know , I didn 't make it very far ! But with a vacation coming up in two days , I was strapped for time . I will be back next year ! So , good news : I have lost 54 lbs ! I had a little scare this weekend because I ate a few things I normally don 't : beer , bread , and fries . And , when I stepped on the scale Monday , it was higher than I 'd like . But it was obviously water weight / sodium , because after a day of drinking a ton of water and eating normally , I am back where I was . So , as most of you are aware , I leave Thursday for my big vacation . It 's my first big trip in two years and the first time my whole family has been together on a trip in 12 years . There 's a lot to celebrate . And there will be a lot of food . I packed workout clothes , which I never do on a vacation . I mean , it 's vacation . But the condo complex has a workout room , PLUS we will be right on the beach so I can go for long walks . I plan on working out / walking throughout the trip . Sidenote , found out there is a YMCA not too far form our condo , and I can use it for free with my Michigan membership , so I MAY even be able to sneak Zumba in on the trip ! Limit my snacking . Everyone loves to snack on vacation . Chips and drinks on the beach ? Yes please ! I will just have to be careful . We usually go to the grocery store once we arrive to buy some items for breakfast and lunch , so I will pick up healthy snacks for me that I know I can eat . Skinny pop popcorn is number one on that list . Limit my drinking . I rarely drink alcohol anymore anyways , but it 's always fun to have a margarita or a beer on vacation . I will limit it . Who wants to drink their calories away ? Order grilled fish instead of fried . When one is in Florida , one must eat seafood . It 's just a general rule of thumb . I checked the menus of some of our favorite places , and while a grilled fish dinner is delicious , it 's also expensive . My workaround ? Order a grilled fish sandwich , no bun . Boom . Since I also want to watch my spending , I think it will be relatively easy to be good on the diet . I don 't want to blow all my money , nor do I want to blow all my calories . I think I can figure out a good balance for me . On the long drive there and back , I pretty much know what I can eat at which fast food places , so I am not too worried about that . There is only one cheat meal I will allow myself to have , and that is a fried shrimp sandwich . Because it is THE BOMB and I cannot go to Florida without having one . I just have to figure out which restaurant has the best one so that I can choose wisely . Have you ever had someone take you under their wing ? I 'm sure you have . I 'm sure you all have . Maybe you were the " new kid " at school or work and someone went out of their way to help you get on your way . Or maybe you did something scary , like try out a new church or a new class and someone assisted you while you got settled . They introduced you to people , demonstrated how certain things work , invited you to lunch so that you wouldn 't feel alone . They gave you tips and advice and did everything they could to help you feel comfortable . Every single step of the way , God is guiding us , leading us , and protecting us . He is sending us the people we need , He is laying down the foundation for us to live the best life we can live . There is a certain trust that comes with this . Just as it does with those who mentor us in our daily lives , we must trust that God will continue to carry us , that He will not drop us , and if we start to fall we just need to hold on closer . Okay , so I 've never actually been to Ireland , but it still makes me pretty happy . Maybe it 's part of my imagination or maybe it is as wonderful as I assume it is . Hopefully one day I will find out . It is my dream vacation spot . Everyone says to travel young , before it gets " too late " , but those people haven 't seen my student loan statements . I can 't travel now . I hope that one day I can . Ireland will be the first place that I will go . I am about 90 % Irish , which is obviously a large part of the appeal to Ireland . I want to see my heritage , I want to LIVE and breathe my heritage . Another reason is the connection to the Sisters of Mercy , who founded my high school . I am still involved with the Sisters as an Associate . The Sisters began in Ireland when their founder , and one of my biggest role models , Catherine McAuley , opened a house on Baggot Street . I want to visit that house . I want to hug the Sisters over there and thank them . I want to share my story with them and hear their stories . When I think about one day stepping foot in Ireland , I feel a sense of peace . I want to see the gorgeous green and the historic churches . I want to hear the thick accents and the chit chat of the Irish people . I want to hold a Celtic cross in one hand and a shamrock in the other . I want to taste a Guinness and Fish and Chips in a local Irish pub . I love to hear others tell me their tales of traveling to Ireland . My sister studied abroad there for a semester in college . I wish I had done that . I got all the information , was ready to get the ball rolling , and then just . . . didn 't . It was at a weird time in my life , and I really regret not going . My parents went a few years ago and had the best time . Their dream came true , they got to watch Notre Dame play a football game in Ireland . I am so happy for them that they took the opportunity to go on that trip . One day I will be there I don 't care if I have to pay my way with pennies , I will be there . I will take it all in , and I know I will be smiling the whole time . Until then , I will keep dreaming . If you are stumbling on my blog from the A - Z Challenge , Welcome ! Today I am sharing some weight loss " How To 's " . I have lost 53 lbs since July and still have a ways to go . I have learned a lot along the way and hope to help someone who is struggling or stuck . When I talk about my weight loss journey . A lot of people say to me " I really need to get going , but I don 't know where to start " . Here is what I suggest : I strongly suggest meeting with a personal trainer , even for just one session . I know cost is an issue for most of us , but I think just one session is worth it . You will tell the trainer what you are looking to do and they will show you some exercises to do . Get on My Fitness Pal or Lose It or another app where you can track your calories and your workouts . This will help you to stay on track and also help you figure out how many calories you should be consuming each day . Begin to meal plan . Think about your week , and write down all the meals you will be eating , including snacks . Use that list and take it to the grocery store . Don 't buy anything else except the things on your list . Know and understand that " getting started " is one of the biggest steps you can take , and also should be one of the proudest moments of your life . Getting started to making a healthy lifestyle will be the best decision you 've made ! How To : Learn to eat healthy In all honesty , most of us know what 's healthy and what 's not . We know we probably shouldn 't grab McDonald 's breakfast or eat chips instead of fruits and veggies . But it 's HARD to stay healthy when there 's so much yummy food out there ! The thing is , though , once you start and commit to healthy eating , it gets easier . Eventually you won 't really crave the " bad things " anymore , and if you do it 's rare . However , there are things hidden in foods that we don 't really think about . Like sodium . Sodium is a nasty little booger . You don 't want to overdo it on sodium , it 's not good for your heart and causes bloating . So watch your sodium intake as much as possible . Example ? Most people think a healthy option at Subway is the oven roasted chicken sub . And yes , it 's delicious , and somewhat low in calories , but has over 1 , 000 mg in sodium ! Try , as much as possible , to avoid processed foods in general . Always go for fresh . Try to cook your dinners as much as possible and eat the leftovers for lunch . If that 's not easy , pack a healthy lunch . Tuna , grilled chicken and veggies , quinoia are all good options . I used to just buy lunch on the days I didn 't have leftovers , but recently have forced myself to try to pack a lunch as much as possible . Today ? I 've got tuna with just a tiny mayo , with chopped cucumbers , onions , and spinach leaves . I 'll probably throw in some skinny pop popcorn and an apple . When that 2 - 3 pm snack time craving hits , be prepared . This has been one of my biggest downfalls . I always forget about snacks ! Some good options are celery with peanut butter , carrots , low salt pretzels , a protein bar , or a banana . My biggest piece of advice ? Don 't buy it . If you know you will eat an entire package of Oreos if they are in your house , DON ' T BUY THEM . If you will regret that burrito later , don 't eat it . I don 't believe in full on restriction . Let yourself have treats once in a while , but also don 't sabotage yourself by filling your home with foods that will tempt you . Have lots of healthy options on hand . Water should be your best friend . There are so many positive health benefits of drinking water - and you need to be drinking enough ! Do the whole " 8 glasses " thing , but try to do even more than that . I aim for 10 - 12 glasses a day . Don 't like water ? Add lemon or cucumber and mint to it . Keep track of how much you are drinking during the day . How to : Lift Weights A lot of us , especially females , seem to be scared of weight lifting . Be not afraid , ladies ! Lifting weights is key in your weight loss journey . I do it twice a week . I 'm no expert so I am not sure if that is 100 % correct , but it seems to work for me . Lifting weights can seem intimidating , especially if you 've never done it . You should consult a trainer or a friend who knows what they are doing to teach you the moves . You don 't want to hurt yourself by doing it wrong . I mix up my weight training , too . I use dumbbells , resistance bands , and the weight machines . I also add in my squats / lunges and my ab work on my weight days . How to : Mix up your workouts I can 't think of anyone I know that actually enjoys walking on the treadmill . That 's why you need to change it up ! Do intervals , then do longer intervals . Shock your body ! One of my favorite things to do is 10 - 15 minutes on each cardio machine ( treadmill , stair climber , row , elliptical ) at very high , intense intervals . It is hard , but so worth it . AND keeps things exciting ! Also , try different classes . Zumba is my favorite , and it 's a good workout when you REALLY push yourself to keep up with the instructor . My endurance has built , so I don 't get as tired anymore . Each week I try harder to push myself and go faster . There are lots of other classes to try . Yoga and Pilates are low impact , but great for overall body toning . Kickboxing is high impact and burns a ton of calories . I like classes like Bootcamp and Cardio Sculpt because they work everything . Just try some - you may be surprised what you like ! In the moments you feel most proud , most energized and most motivated , pause . Capture that moment . Put it in your back pocket . And when you are feeling down and discouraged , take it out and remember . Remember how great it felt , and try to emulate that feeling . Make a list of all the things you have accomplished so far , and then a list of all the things you WANT to accomplish . Know that you can do this and that your life is a precious gift in which you need to take care of . Remember WHY you are doing this . Then get up and keep going . Glee is one of the very few shows in which I have seen every single episode . I don 't really get into TV shows . I don 't watch Walking Dead or Breaking Bad . I never watched Friends . I don 't HAVE to be home to watch a show , unless it 's Glee or Idol . Glee captured my heart from the Pilot episode . I adored the music , the characters , and the story . It is one of the most frustrating shows on television , with its plot inconsistencies and random introduction and disappearance of characters . But it 's still SO GOOD . Well , okay , this season has sucked , but I think all of us can agree that is largely in part due to our loss of Cory Montieth . The show is simply not the same without him . 10 . Sue and her sister / Sue and Becky . I love Sue 's sarcastic moments , too , but her sweet , lovely moments with her sister and with Becky tug at the heartstrings . 8 . Finn and Rachel . They aren 't my favorite couple , but even I have to admit there was something special there . Rachel 's ridiculous crush on Finn turned into a relationship , that had plenty of ups and downs along the way . The two were together in real life , making Cory 's death all that more difficult for the Glee cast . 7 . Brittany / Santana . The relationship between these two ladies was confusing and a little heart wrenching . You had Santana , the crazy mean girl , and Brittany , the not - so - smart dancer . They had a deep friendship that developed into something more . When they first got together , neither one really knew what they wanted . But as their relationship developed , their love deepened . One of my favorite Glee moments is when they sing " Songbird " . Santana 's face says it all . 6 . The school shooting episode . This episode aired with the " new kids " , along with a few of the regulars . It was at a point where I was ready to give up on Glee . I wasn 't feeling the new cast members and I was bored with the story lines . But then they go and do this , one of the most brilliant episodes of TV I have seen . The actors did a fantastic job . Kudos to them for making my heart beat faster than it ever has before . 5 . Kurt and his dad . The relationship between Kurt and Burt Hummel was one of the deepest and most intriguing relationships on the show . Burt was challenged with accepting his son 's homosexuality , and Kurt was dealing with coming out , bullying , boyfriends , etc . The two of them always share the best scenes together . 4 . Samcedes . I love Finchel and Klaine as much as the next person , but Samcedes is , hands down , my favorite couple . Sam was linked with lots of gals on Glee , but his relationship with Mercedes was truly special . It was a unique pairing , but it worked . Mercedes ' confidence matched with Sam 's humor and heart made me love them together . It looks like Glee is hinting they may get back together in these next few episodes , and that make me my heart pretty darn happy . 3 . Idina Menzel / Rachel 's Mom . How perfect was Idina on Glee ? So , so perfect . First of all , the resemblance between Lea Michelle and Idina is almost scary . Secondly , Idina 's Broadway voice and booming personality made her a perfect fit on the show . Her character disappeared after a while , but it was fun while it lasted . 2 . The love that Mr . Schu has for his students . Mr . Schu 's love and concern for his students is truly admirable . He sees this kids as his own . They frustrate him and annoy him but at the end of the day , all he wants to do is make them happy and protect them . 1 . The overall friendship , support , and love that comes from that Glee room . These kids really are a family . They love each other , they fight , they make up , they support , they compete . They are a special group of people who stand together and stand strong . All while spreading joy with their music : ) Fort Walton is not just a vacation destination . It 's not just some place in Florida . It is childhood . It is memories . It is family . This year , my entire family will be heading down there , together . My siblings , their spouses , and I went two years ago together , but I have not been with my parents since I was 16 . That 's 10 years overdue for a trip . And all of us haven 't been on a vacation together in over 10 years . This trip is needed , and it 's going to be amazing . Fort Walton is a place of love . It is where my parents first met . It is where my brother in law proposed to my sister . It is where my brother and sister in law took their honeymoon . It is where Laurence and I bonded , it is where friendships have been built . It is happiness . To my family , I cannot even begin to tell you how excited I am to spend a week with you in our most special place . I love you all so much and to be together here will mean so much . Let 's all vow to let go of worries , to hold back from anger and fear and to just soak it up . Who knows when we will all be together again here . We should cherish it while we can . See you in 10 days , 17 hours , and 24 minutes . Empathy is the ability to recognize emtions and feelings that are being shown by someone else . As humans , we are pretty aware of our own hurt and sufferings . We know when we are down , when we are sad , and generally , we know why . It 's a bit tougher to be aware of how others are feeling . Empathy , my friends , is not that easy . I think , naturally , a lot of us have the attitude that " if it didn 't happen to me , why should I care ? " . You should care because one day , it could happen to you . You should care because you will need people to care about and for you , and to stand with you in your times of need . You should care because you were born with a working heart . It 's beating , right now , and that should be enough of a reminder that you are capable of making a difference , of helping someone , of spreading awareness . I have talked about this before , but I think we can all begin to possess empathy if we paid attention a little bit more . If we looked in the eyes of the people we interact with - whether it 's a coworker or a cashier at the grocery store . If we begin to notice their pain , their distress , perhaps we can all become a bit more empathetic . Why is empathy important ? Because we 're all out here just trying to survive . If we could show some empathy toward one another , we could make life a little happier and easier . We need to stand together , not against each other . I certainly believe in dreaming big . I love the idea of using our minds to imagine the best life possible for ourselves . I 've always been a dreamer . I think most of us are . We are built with so much wonder . I see that as a plus . I think we most often attest " dreams " to " jobs " , or " growing up " . These are great to have - when I was a little girl I dreamed of opening a bakery with my grandma , of becoming a zoologist with my best friend Maggie , and of becoming a Broadway star . In college and as a young adult , I dreamed of moving to Nashville and writing songs for famous musicians . But dreams aren 't limited to our income or our title . We can dream of a more peaceful world , of new inventions , of cures and miracles . I dream that there will be an end to violence , and that we find how to beat cancer so that it stops taking lives away . A few years ago , when I was still living with my parents , I had a " dream board " . On it were pictures of celebrities I wanted to meet , places I wanted to go , and things I wanted to accomplish . I no longer have it , but I wonder how different it would look now . I will tell that you my biggest dream is to write something that means something to people . Whether that is a song or a book , I just want to impact lives through my writing . The best part about our dreams is that they are just that - ours . Own your dream . Hold onto it . Cherish it , and nourish it . You can dream as big as you want to . Don 't be afraid to dream big . Don 't be afraid to act on your dreams . Even if you don 't quite make it , I can assure you that along the way , you will learn so much about yourself and who you are . So go on and dream , darlings . " We can dream , but God can take those dreams and go beyond what we can ask , think or even imagine . . . so dream big and let God do the rest " - Melinda Doolittle , American Idol Finalist Season 6 I did not fully understand the concept of " community " until I served a year of volunteer service through the Mercy Volunteer Corps . The application process kept mentioning the word " community " and I just kind of shrugged . assuming they meant " roommates " . But here 's the thing : It is very different . Examples ? Well , the most obvious for me goes back to that year of service . I was set to live with three total strangers and to live " in community " . What did this mean ? It meant we intentionally ate our meals together , had spirituality nights , went to Church together , and shared our experiences with one another . It didn 't mean the four of us were together every second of every day , but it did mean we made a point to make our time together meaningful . You don 't have to just " build community " with the people that you live with , though . At my previous job , I truly felt like we were a community . We intentionally ate lunch together every day and supported one another . At my new job , I can sense that my volunteer committees are a community . People keep asking me over and over if I am going to have a " 50 lbs " party . I was planning on it . I was going to invite family and close friends to have a dinner and celebrate . But when the 50 lbs finally hit , it just felt weird to send an e - mail out asking people to come celebrate me . So , to be honest , I really haven 't done anything to celebrate . Which I guess is kind of sad , considering how hard I worked , but I also don 't necessarily need a celebration . I know what I 've done . I think throughout this journey I have been most proud of my bravery and my willingness to try new things . I am not generally a person who likes to jump into new opportunities . I worry and stress about who will be there , if I will stand out , etc . When I used to belong to the Y in Auburn Hills a few years ago , I would pace back and forth outside the group exercise room , trying to force myself to go inside . Sometimes I went in , sometimes I got too scared . But this time has been different . I have tried Yoga , Zumba toning , Spinning , Kickboxing , Battle Ropes ( not a class , but I was the first at Sola to try them and demonstrated them for others ) , Pilates , and Bootcamp . Of all of these , bootcamp has been my favorite - you know , in a sort of sick and twisted way . It 's SO hard , and afterwards I wanted to curl up in my bed for hours , but it was such a feeling of accomplishment that it felt amazing . I was a little slower than everyone else and sweat more than I have in my entire life , but I did it . Ever since I started cooking , I have only repeated a recipe once or twice . I have tried new things with food , too ! And guess what ? IT ' S FUN ! The other day I stopped at JcPenney to get some T - shirts for Florida . And you guys - I bought a shirt outside of the plus size section - in the regular women 's section . I can 't tell you how happy that made me . It 's been a long time since I could do that . I almost cried . The sales associate helping me almost cried . It was one of those moments . A very special moment . I will not lie , though . I 'm tired . You 've heard me say this before in my WLW posts : this whole thing is exhausting . Today was actually a rest day from working out and I can feel my muscles aching a bit . It reminds me how hard this is , and how far I have come . But also , how far I have to go . And that makes me tired . But I will not give up ! I love you guys . Thanks for virtually celebrating with me . And maybe I 'll treat myself this weekend and have a beer or two to officially celebrate . Also , when I hit my goal weight , I really am going to throw a party , and I 'm not going to feel bad about it .