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<p /> <p>David Cay Johnston was called by The Washington Monthly, "one of this country's most important journalists" and the Oregonian newspaper compared his work to the great muckrakers Lincoln Steffens, Ida Tarbell and Upton Sinclair. Johnston won a Pulitzer Prize in 2001 for his exposes of tax loopholes and inequities.</p> <p /> <p /> <p /> <p /> PAUL JAY, SENIOR EDITOR, TRNN: Welcome to The Real News Network. I'm Paul Jay in Baltimore. And welcome to a new edition of Reality Asserts Itself. <p /> <p />One of my great pleasures in doing this series is I get a chance to talk to people who actually do their homework. A lot of interviews' subjects, they do some homework, but a lot of it's kind of general opinion. But it's a real pleasure to talk to investigative journalists who really do that, actually investigate, uncover, unravel things that we didn't know before. And in this segment of Reality Asserts Itself, I get to talk to one of America's leading investigative journalists, certainly one of the leading journalists in its economic matters, and with a long history, including a Pulitzer Prize. <p /> <p />In this Reality Asserts Itself, it's going to be my pleasure to talk to David Cay Johnston. He's a lifelong journalist and bestselling author whose recent work explores the causes and conditions of inequality in the United States. His award-winning investigative journalism has taken him through the arcane legislation and regulations to expose how corporations and the wealthy rig the system in their favor and to what lengths they go to evade taxation, all at the expense of the average taxpayer. He won the 2001 Pulitzer Prize for beat reporting, and the committee cited him "for his penetrating and enterprising reporting that exposed loopholes and inequities in the U.S. tax code, which was instrumental in bringing about reforms." At the Syracuse University College of Law he's a distinguished visiting lecturer, where he teaches the history of property, taxation, regulation, and commerce. He's written a trilogy of books on our pro-corporate tax system; the most recent: The Fine Print: How Big Companies Use "Plain English" to Rob You Blind. He's also editing the forthcoming book Divided: The Perils of Our Growing Inequality and writes regular columns for Al Jazeera America, Tax Analysts, and a weekly piece for Newsweek. <p /> <p />And now joining us in the studio is David Cay Johnston. <p /> <p />Thanks for joining us. <p /> <p />JOHNSTON: Thank you. <p /> <p />JAY: So, as many or most of you know who watch Reality Asserts Itself, we usually start off with a personal story of our interview subject, and that's what we're going to do. <p /> <p />So, David, tell us a little bit. You're born in San Francisco in 1948. This is a little bit of a political biography, shall I say. In 1948, it's the beginning of the Cold War. It's McCarthyism. It's the House Un-American Activities Committee. Were you in a political household? Did people talk about this kind of stuff? <p /> <p />JOHNSTON: Well, my father was a man from New Orleans with a third-grade education who read a book every day. We had a photograph of him till we lost it in a fire having dinner with F.D.R. When I was a little boy--. <p /> <p />JAY: Now, hold on. You weren't having dinner with F.&amp;#160;D.&amp;#160;R. <p /> <p />JOHNSTON: My father was having dinner with F.&amp;#160;D.&amp;#160;R. back in the '30s when he was a young man. And--. <p /> <p />JAY: Alright. Okay. I got to know. Why is he having dinner with F.&amp;#160;D.&amp;#160;R.? <p /> <p />JOHNSTON: He was very active in the Young Democrats of Arizona. I think he was president or vice president of it. And so my parents were very aware of things that were in the news. My father had grown up with this third-grade education. He was in the war. He never saw combat, but he became totally disabled. And he worked while I was growing up, but he was disabled, like many people who were disabled continue to work until health stops their ability to do so. <p /> <p />JAY: He was a chef? <p /> <p />JOHNSTON: He became a chef, and he worked up until 1963. And then he died 1969 when I was--just turned 20. <p /> <p />My mother was a disowned heiress, the only child of a very wealthy businessman. She testified against him in a trial in March&amp;#160;1941, where he was being sued for alienation of affection. Imagine today going to a lawyer, saying, oh, this person's sleeping with my spouse, so I want to sue them for alienation of affection. I don't think you'd get very far today. But back then, my grandfather was ordered to pay $10,000, and he disowned the star witness against him, my mother. <p /> <p />So I grew up in an unusual household of very bright people. <p /> <p />JAY: And did you grow up knowing this grandfather at all? <p /> <p />JOHNSTON: No. In fact, my existence was hidden from him, and he died when I was, I think, seven years old. So, no, did not know him. Grew up knowing that he had left a very large fortune. And I certainly wasn't a part of it. <p /> <p />JAY: And nor was your mother. <p /> <p />JOHNSTON: Nor was my mother. <p /> <p />JAY: And your mother must have known this when she testified. <p /> <p />JOHNSTON: She was told she'd get disowned, and she did it anyway. It was sort of the strange person my mother was. <p /> <p />So when I was ten years old and we lived in Mill Valley, California, in a little, tiny rented cabin slung over the side of a hill, I went to work to help the family. And by the time I was 13, we were living in Santa Cruz, where I then grew up. I was working full-time. I had seven newspaper routes, four in the morning and three in the afternoon. And on weekends I washed dishes and mowed lawns and did all sorts of things to sort of help the family. <p /> <p />JAY: So as you're throwing or handing newspapers over, are you ever thinking, I will be writing in these someday? <p /> <p />JOHNSTON: Actually, the scariest part was I had no idea what I was going to do to make a living. I had no--like millions of young people in America, there was no sort of path to where things were and how you got somewhere. And fortune shined upon me. When I was a senior in high school and I was married and I had a kid, the local weekly paper, which was always shooting my picture 'cause I'd won a speech contest, asked me to write a column and offered to pay me a little bit of money--$0.20 an inch. They liked it, so pretty soon they had me covering the school board and the city council for minimum wage. And one day at the county board of supervisors meeting when I was 18 years old, a reporter from The San Jose Mercury who was filling in for the local guy who was off on vacation slides down the bench next to me, asking what's going on, during the break takes me to a coffee shop. I literally don't have a penny in my pocket and I have a hole in the bottom of my shoe. And the following day he told me he had arranged a job interview for me at The San Jose Mercury as a reporter. And I looked at him and I said, "I just graduated from night high school. I'm 18 years old. They're not going to talk to me." And he said, "Yes, they are." So I went over there. They made fun of me for an hour for applying. And I went back and told him how terrible it was, and he said, you go back every three weeks on Friday night until they hire you. And nine months later, they hired me. <p /> <p />JAY: Before we pick up that story--we're jumping further ahead. I want to back up. <p /> <p />JOHNSTON: Sure. <p /> <p />JAY: Your father--and I'm always interested in the roots of people's political thinking, which to a large extent at least begins with transmission from their parents, and they either rebel against it, assimilate some of it, or whatever. But your father is an active Democrat. He's a Roosevelt Democrat. Is he also a Wallace Democrat? <p /> <p />Now, for those of you that have not watched all of our stuff about Wallace, who became later Roosevelt's vice president, and 'cause by and large Wallace has been left out of most American history, 'cause he was just way too left of center for the current narrative of what America is and was, Wallace was an important piece of what Roosevelt stood for. <p /> <p />JOHNSTON: You know, I couldn't tell you that. Here's what I can tell you, that my father, who grew up in New Orleans and then left when he was 19 years old and went West, was furious, absolutely furious about racial discrimination. When the John Cameron Swayze news would come on in the '50s and whatever civil rights demonstrations, if my father happened to be home at news time he would get my brother and I up out of our chairs, 'cause, you know, they tell you on the news what's about to come up. He would stand us up in front of the TV and put his hands on the back of our necks, and he would say, you will pay attention to this. And I remember one time we saw hoses turned on young people or something like that, something really awful. My father turned the TV off and he says, you cannot allow this. There before the grace of God go you. You could be poor and black and in the South, and this would be happening to you. So this is about you, and you will do something about this. And in the summer of 1960--. <p /> <p />JAY: Sounds like he could have been a Wallace Democrat. <p /> <p />JOHNSTON: Yeah, well, maybe. <p /> <p />And in the summer of 1963, my father, who the following year voted for Goldwater on the theory that Congress wouldn't let him get into a big land war and kill his sons, my father sent me to New Orleans on the bus for the summer to stay with his relatives. And I was told to be very clear that we didn't support their brand of racism. So the first thing I did when my uncle Charlie put me in the car and we went down to the car dealership, a Mercedes dealership, was make a beeline for the water fountain that said "COLORED". And by the end of the summer, you know, the relatives were all saying I was like my father, I was a little "tetched". <p /> <p />JAY: Your father is active with F.&amp;#160;D.&amp;#160;R. at a time when the economic system, capitalism, was in severe crisis. There was a lot of people wondering whether that was--you know, whether that was the end of capitalism. F.&amp;#160;D.&amp;#160;R. kind of stood for, no, we can fix this, there are policies that can mitigate the excesses of capitalism, there's a way to have a rational capitalism. Your father grew up with that, and you grew up with that. <p /> <p />JOHNSTON: Well, my father, by the time, you know, I was aware of things, except for the issue of race, I wouldn't describe as especially overtly political. He certainly was part of the sort of blue-collar American male world, in which the system is not designed to help you, and he certainly believed that unions were crucial. And I know that he taught me about the idea that Adam Smith in The Wealth of Nations figured out, which was that workers should be paid in teams. They work in teams. And, of course, that's not what we see today. We see that the top five executives of companies typically get about a third of the stock options, and the top 2&amp;#160;percent of executives get all the rest. And he believed in that, and as a chef he would have kitchens with at times over 100 people working for him, and he always--he explained to me when I was young about you had to coordinate all these activities and you had to get people to work together that sometimes don't like each other. <p /> <p />JAY: So you grow up with a sort of instinct of an outrage against inequality. <p /> <p />JOHNSTON: Yes; no, I think that's quite true. And on top of that, you know, here's my mother talking about all the money she doesn't have and sort of doesn't understand why, even though it's, you know, plainly obvious: if you testify against your father, then he's going to cut you out. <p /> <p />JAY: But was she a window for you? Did she talk much about the world of the rich? I mean, really, I mean--. <p /> <p />JOHNSTON: Oh, yeah, no, my mother would. She had pictures, and she would show us the horses and the house on the lake and the servant. You know, we had films of the servant opening the car and putting her into the car. And--oh, yeah. <p /> <p />JAY: But she marries a working-class guy. <p /> <p />JOHNSTON: Yeah. Yeah. And happily. My parents were happily married. <p /> <p />JAY: And what were her politics? I mean, had she been radicalized by the '30s herself? <p /> <p />JOHNSTON: Oh, no. She was Republican. <p /> <p />JAY: She was Republican. <p /> <p />JOHNSTON: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. She took me to a Nixon rally in 1960 and to a Rockefeller rally. I got to shake hands with Nelson Rockefeller when I was 12 years old or 11 years old. <p /> <p />JAY: Well, did they ever fight about politics? I mean, they don't sound like on the same page here. <p /> <p />JOHNSTON: No. They fought about things, but not that. <p /> <p />JAY: Not that. <p /> <p />JOHNSTON: Money. <p /> <p />JAY: They fought about money. Not enough. <p /> <p />JOHNSTON: No, not enough. <p /> <p />JAY: Not enough. <p /> <p />JOHNSTON: That's why I went to work so young. <p /> <p />JAY: Alright. So let's jump ahead now. Well, you're born in '48. <p /> <p />JOHNSTON: Christmas Eve, 12/24/48--doubling numbers. <p /> <p />JAY: By the time you're ten, '58, we're still--you know, we haven't hit the sort of cultural and political revolutions and transformation of the '60s, so you're still in Leave It to Beaver, Cold War kind of mass media. How much do you assimilate of that? <p /> <p />JOHNSTON: Well, remember, 1959 ('cause I was born at the end of the year and I'm ten years old) was when we had the steel strike. And even though the steel strike was in, basically, Pennsylvania and I'm living in Northern California, we felt it. And it was very clear how important back then steel was to the entire industry. We were in an industrial economy. And there were kids I know whose parents lost their jobs because of the--or at least they said they lost them because of the steel strike. And this gave me an awareness of this. <p /> <p />I also had a fundamental belief then--and it's held up until very recently in time--that we had an abundance of work to do in this country, and that if you worked hard and prospered you'd do just fine. I mean, when I left jobs and I was a young man, even with a bunch of kids, I never once worried about another job. Today is a totally different environment, because we have adopted government policies that are designed to take from the many to enrich the few instead of serving the whole economy. <p /> <p />JAY: Your whole arc is this role, that I'm going to point out what's really wrong. From that you can start to see how it could be fixed and, you know, potential reforms. And in the end I'm going to ask you, do you actually still believe that's possible? <p /> <p />And I'll just--just to tease it a bit--but we ain't going to do this until the end, really have this out, because we're going to go through David's work before we do this, but I had a similar conversation with Ralph Nader, who did an interview like this, and, you know, as a single person causing reforms for the better, it's hard to find someone who actually accomplished more than Nader. <p /> <p />JOHNSTON: There's nobody in Ralph's league. <p /> <p />JAY: Nobody in his league. And I asked him the question, could you still do any of what you did. <p /> <p />JOHNSTON: He probably said not likely. <p /> <p />JAY: No, he said no. <p /> <p />JOHNSTON: Yeah. <p /> <p />JAY: He said flat out no. <p /> <p />JOHNSTON: No, that's exactly right. The--. <p /> <p />JAY: He said it was an anomaly, a little window in history, and it's closed. <p /> <p />JOHNSTON: Well, and plus, plus the business people in this world aren't stupid. They studied Ralph, they co-opted Ralph, they took over Ralph's techniques, and they used them against the public. <p /> <p />JAY: Alright. We will unravel that and much more of your work in the next segment of Reality Asserts Itself with David Cay Johnston. <p /> <p />Please join us. <p /> <p />End <p /> <p />DISCLAIMER: Please note that transcripts for The Real News Network are typed from a recording of the program. TRNN cannot guarantee their complete accuracy.

Taking from the Many to Give to the Few - David Cay Johnston on Reality Asserts Itself (1/4)

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option%3Dcom_content%26task%3Dview%26id%3D31%26Itemid%3D74%26jumival%3D12312

2014-08-31

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David Cay Johnston was called by The Washington Monthly one of this countrys most important journalists and the Oregonian newspaper compared his work to the great muckrakers Lincoln Steffens Ida Tarbell and Upton Sinclair Johnston won a Pulitzer Prize in 2001 for his exposes of tax loopholes and inequities PAUL JAY SENIOR EDITOR TRNN Welcome to The Real News Network Im Paul Jay in Baltimore And welcome to a new edition of Reality Asserts Itself One of my great pleasures in doing this series is I get a chance to talk to people who actually do their homework A lot of interviews subjects they do some homework but a lot of its kind of general opinion But its a real pleasure to talk to investigative journalists who really do that actually investigate uncover unravel things that we didnt know before And in this segment of Reality Asserts Itself I get to talk to one of Americas leading investigative journalists certainly one of the leading journalists in its economic matters and with a long history including a Pulitzer Prize In this Reality Asserts Itself its going to be my pleasure to talk to David Cay Johnston Hes a lifelong journalist and bestselling author whose recent work explores the causes and conditions of inequality in the United States His awardwinning investigative journalism has taken him through the arcane legislation and regulations to expose how corporations and the wealthy rig the system in their favor and to what lengths they go to evade taxation all at the expense of the average taxpayer He won the 2001 Pulitzer Prize for beat reporting and the committee cited him for his penetrating and enterprising reporting that exposed loopholes and inequities in the US tax code which was instrumental in bringing about reforms At the Syracuse University College of Law hes a distinguished visiting lecturer where he teaches the history of property taxation regulation and commerce Hes written a trilogy of books on our procorporate tax system the most recent The Fine Print How Big Companies Use Plain English to Rob You Blind Hes also editing the forthcoming book Divided The Perils of Our Growing Inequality and writes regular columns for Al Jazeera America Tax Analysts and a weekly piece for Newsweek And now joining us in the studio is David Cay Johnston Thanks for joining us JOHNSTON Thank you JAY So as many or most of you know who watch Reality Asserts Itself we usually start off with a personal story of our interview subject and thats what were going to do So David tell us a little bit Youre born in San Francisco in 1948 This is a little bit of a political biography shall I say In 1948 its the beginning of the Cold War Its McCarthyism Its the House UnAmerican Activities Committee Were you in a political household Did people talk about this kind of stuff JOHNSTON Well my father was a man from New Orleans with a thirdgrade education who read a book every day We had a photograph of him till we lost it in a fire having dinner with FDR When I was a little boy JAY Now hold on You werent having dinner with Famp160Damp160R JOHNSTON My father was having dinner with Famp160Damp160R back in the 30s when he was a young man And JAY Alright Okay I got to know Why is he having dinner with Famp160Damp160R JOHNSTON He was very active in the Young Democrats of Arizona I think he was president or vice president of it And so my parents were very aware of things that were in the news My father had grown up with this thirdgrade education He was in the war He never saw combat but he became totally disabled And he worked while I was growing up but he was disabled like many people who were disabled continue to work until health stops their ability to do so JAY He was a chef JOHNSTON He became a chef and he worked up until 1963 And then he died 1969 when I wasjust turned 20 My mother was a disowned heiress the only child of a very wealthy businessman She testified against him in a trial in Marchamp1601941 where he was being sued for alienation of affection Imagine today going to a lawyer saying oh this persons sleeping with my spouse so I want to sue them for alienation of affection I dont think youd get very far today But back then my grandfather was ordered to pay 10000 and he disowned the star witness against him my mother So I grew up in an unusual household of very bright people JAY And did you grow up knowing this grandfather at all JOHNSTON No In fact my existence was hidden from him and he died when I was I think seven years old So no did not know him Grew up knowing that he had left a very large fortune And I certainly wasnt a part of it JAY And nor was your mother JOHNSTON Nor was my mother JAY And your mother must have known this when she testified JOHNSTON She was told shed get disowned and she did it anyway It was sort of the strange person my mother was So when I was ten years old and we lived in Mill Valley California in a little tiny rented cabin slung over the side of a hill I went to work to help the family And by the time I was 13 we were living in Santa Cruz where I then grew up I was working fulltime I had seven newspaper routes four in the morning and three in the afternoon And on weekends I washed dishes and mowed lawns and did all sorts of things to sort of help the family JAY So as youre throwing or handing newspapers over are you ever thinking I will be writing in these someday JOHNSTON Actually the scariest part was I had no idea what I was going to do to make a living I had nolike millions of young people in America there was no sort of path to where things were and how you got somewhere And fortune shined upon me When I was a senior in high school and I was married and I had a kid the local weekly paper which was always shooting my picture cause Id won a speech contest asked me to write a column and offered to pay me a little bit of money020 an inch They liked it so pretty soon they had me covering the school board and the city council for minimum wage And one day at the county board of supervisors meeting when I was 18 years old a reporter from The San Jose Mercury who was filling in for the local guy who was off on vacation slides down the bench next to me asking whats going on during the break takes me to a coffee shop I literally dont have a penny in my pocket and I have a hole in the bottom of my shoe And the following day he told me he had arranged a job interview for me at The San Jose Mercury as a reporter And I looked at him and I said I just graduated from night high school Im 18 years old Theyre not going to talk to me And he said Yes they are So I went over there They made fun of me for an hour for applying And I went back and told him how terrible it was and he said you go back every three weeks on Friday night until they hire you And nine months later they hired me JAY Before we pick up that storywere jumping further ahead I want to back up JOHNSTON Sure JAY Your fatherand Im always interested in the roots of peoples political thinking which to a large extent at least begins with transmission from their parents and they either rebel against it assimilate some of it or whatever But your father is an active Democrat Hes a Roosevelt Democrat Is he also a Wallace Democrat Now for those of you that have not watched all of our stuff about Wallace who became later Roosevelts vice president and cause by and large Wallace has been left out of most American history cause he was just way too left of center for the current narrative of what America is and was Wallace was an important piece of what Roosevelt stood for JOHNSTON You know I couldnt tell you that Heres what I can tell you that my father who grew up in New Orleans and then left when he was 19 years old and went West was furious absolutely furious about racial discrimination When the John Cameron Swayze news would come on in the 50s and whatever civil rights demonstrations if my father happened to be home at news time he would get my brother and I up out of our chairs cause you know they tell you on the news whats about to come up He would stand us up in front of the TV and put his hands on the back of our necks and he would say you will pay attention to this And I remember one time we saw hoses turned on young people or something like that something really awful My father turned the TV off and he says you cannot allow this There before the grace of God go you You could be poor and black and in the South and this would be happening to you So this is about you and you will do something about this And in the summer of 1960 JAY Sounds like he could have been a Wallace Democrat JOHNSTON Yeah well maybe And in the summer of 1963 my father who the following year voted for Goldwater on the theory that Congress wouldnt let him get into a big land war and kill his sons my father sent me to New Orleans on the bus for the summer to stay with his relatives And I was told to be very clear that we didnt support their brand of racism So the first thing I did when my uncle Charlie put me in the car and we went down to the car dealership a Mercedes dealership was make a beeline for the water fountain that said COLORED And by the end of the summer you know the relatives were all saying I was like my father I was a little tetched JAY Your father is active with Famp160Damp160R at a time when the economic system capitalism was in severe crisis There was a lot of people wondering whether that wasyou know whether that was the end of capitalism Famp160Damp160R kind of stood for no we can fix this there are policies that can mitigate the excesses of capitalism theres a way to have a rational capitalism Your father grew up with that and you grew up with that JOHNSTON Well my father by the time you know I was aware of things except for the issue of race I wouldnt describe as especially overtly political He certainly was part of the sort of bluecollar American male world in which the system is not designed to help you and he certainly believed that unions were crucial And I know that he taught me about the idea that Adam Smith in The Wealth of Nations figured out which was that workers should be paid in teams They work in teams And of course thats not what we see today We see that the top five executives of companies typically get about a third of the stock options and the top 2amp160percent of executives get all the rest And he believed in that and as a chef he would have kitchens with at times over 100 people working for him and he alwayshe explained to me when I was young about you had to coordinate all these activities and you had to get people to work together that sometimes dont like each other JAY So you grow up with a sort of instinct of an outrage against inequality JOHNSTON Yes no I think thats quite true And on top of that you know heres my mother talking about all the money she doesnt have and sort of doesnt understand why even though its you know plainly obvious if you testify against your father then hes going to cut you out JAY But was she a window for you Did she talk much about the world of the rich I mean really I mean JOHNSTON Oh yeah no my mother would She had pictures and she would show us the horses and the house on the lake and the servant You know we had films of the servant opening the car and putting her into the car Andoh yeah JAY But she marries a workingclass guy JOHNSTON Yeah Yeah And happily My parents were happily married JAY And what were her politics I mean had she been radicalized by the 30s herself JOHNSTON Oh no She was Republican JAY She was Republican JOHNSTON Oh yeah Oh yeah She took me to a Nixon rally in 1960 and to a Rockefeller rally I got to shake hands with Nelson Rockefeller when I was 12 years old or 11 years old JAY Well did they ever fight about politics I mean they dont sound like on the same page here JOHNSTON No They fought about things but not that JAY Not that JOHNSTON Money JAY They fought about money Not enough JOHNSTON No not enough JAY Not enough JOHNSTON Thats why I went to work so young JAY Alright So lets jump ahead now Well youre born in 48 JOHNSTON Christmas Eve 122448doubling numbers JAY By the time youre ten 58 were stillyou know we havent hit the sort of cultural and political revolutions and transformation of the 60s so youre still in Leave It to Beaver Cold War kind of mass media How much do you assimilate of that JOHNSTON Well remember 1959 cause I was born at the end of the year and Im ten years old was when we had the steel strike And even though the steel strike was in basically Pennsylvania and Im living in Northern California we felt it And it was very clear how important back then steel was to the entire industry We were in an industrial economy And there were kids I know whose parents lost their jobs because of theor at least they said they lost them because of the steel strike And this gave me an awareness of this I also had a fundamental belief thenand its held up until very recently in timethat we had an abundance of work to do in this country and that if you worked hard and prospered youd do just fine I mean when I left jobs and I was a young man even with a bunch of kids I never once worried about another job Today is a totally different environment because we have adopted government policies that are designed to take from the many to enrich the few instead of serving the whole economy JAY Your whole arc is this role that Im going to point out whats really wrong From that you can start to see how it could be fixed and you know potential reforms And in the end Im going to ask you do you actually still believe thats possible And Ill justjust to tease it a bitbut we aint going to do this until the end really have this out because were going to go through Davids work before we do this but I had a similar conversation with Ralph Nader who did an interview like this and you know as a single person causing reforms for the better its hard to find someone who actually accomplished more than Nader JOHNSTON Theres nobody in Ralphs league JAY Nobody in his league And I asked him the question could you still do any of what you did JOHNSTON He probably said not likely JAY No he said no JOHNSTON Yeah JAY He said flat out no JOHNSTON No thats exactly right The JAY He said it was an anomaly a little window in history and its closed JOHNSTON Well and plus plus the business people in this world arent stupid They studied Ralph they coopted Ralph they took over Ralphs techniques and they used them against the public JAY Alright We will unravel that and much more of your work in the next segment of Reality Asserts Itself with David Cay Johnston Please join us End DISCLAIMER Please note that transcripts for The Real News Network are typed from a recording of the program TRNN cannot guarantee their complete accuracy

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<p>Max Blumenthal is an award-winning journalist and bestselling author whose articles and video documentaries have appeared in The New York Times, The Los Angeles Times, The Daily Beast, The Nation, The Guardian, The Independent Film Channel, The Huffington Post, <a href="http://salon.com/" type="external">Salon.com</a>, Al Jazeera English and many other publications. His most recent book is Goliath: Life and Loathing in Greater Israel. His other book, <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Republican-Gomorrah-Inside-Movement-Shattered/dp/1568583982" type="external">Republican Gomorrah: Inside The Movement That Shattered The Party</a>, is a New York Times and Los Angeles Times bestseller. Max is co-host of the podcast Moderate Rebels.</p> <p /> <p /> <p /> <p /> PAUL JAY, SENIOR EDITOR, TRNN: Welcome to The Real News Network. I'm Paul Jay in Baltimore. And welcome to Reality Asserts Itself. <p /> <p />We're continuing our series of interviews with author Max Blumenthal about his new book Goliath: Life and Loathing a Greater Israel. In the previous sections of the interview, we've been talking about the far right and the center and their policy of expulsion of Arab citizens of Israel. Of course, the primary face of Israel is Benjamin Netanyahu, it's prime minister, who would not overtly talk this way these days, but at the root of his thinking he seems to not be in a different position than the others we have covered in this series. <p /> <p />Here's a quote from Max's book: <p /> <p />Like every Israeli Prime Minister before him, Netanyahu's strategy depended on increasing the number of Jews living on Israeli-controlled territory and reducing the number of Palestinians. In November&amp;#160;1989, while he served as a junior minister in Shamir's government, Netanyahu spoke at Bar-Ilan University, the academic mecca of religious nationalism in Israel. Quote, Israel should have taken advantage of the suppression of the demonstrations in China in Tiananmen Square, when the world's attention was focused on what was happening in that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories, end quote, Netanyahu told his audience. However, to my regret, they did not support that policy that I proposed and which I still propose should be implemented. <p /> <p />Now joining us in the studio is Max Blumenthal. Max is an award-winning journalist and bestselling author, whose articles and video documentaries have appeared in many publications. His most recent book is Goliath: Life and Loathing in Greater Israel. <p /> <p />Thanks for joining us. <p /> <p />MAX BLUMENTHAL, AUTHOR, JOURNALIST, BLOGGER: Good to be with you. <p /> <p />JAY: So Benjamin Netanyahu would, again, not allow the West to see this face of his, but this seems to be part of his ideology as well, the idea of expulsion. <p /> <p />BLUMENTHAL: It has been. And, you know, I write about Netanyahu's experience as part of the post-'67 generation. <p /> <p />There had always been, you know, a strong right-wing element within the Zionist movement, but it had always been kind of the junior partner to the labor Zionist movement. And Ze'ev Jabotinsky's most famous essay, which he wrote in 1923, "The Iron Wall, kind of laid out the strategic deterrence strategy of the Israelis, which is pure colonialism, using kind of a strategy of pure force because they could never make peace with the indigenous Arab population. And so they will have to suppress them through violence. And Jabotinsky said there's no difference between our vegetarians and our meat eaters. And so Jabotinsky's press secretary in New York was Netanyahu's father, Benzion. And so Netanyahu emerges from this kind of environment. <p /> <p />"The Iron Wall" was adopted by the labor Zionist movement as the official strategic deterrence strategy of Israel. And it's now embodied in a literal iron wall, which is the separation wall along the West Bank. And so Netanyahu moves into Israeli politics in the early '70s, and his comrades are people like Tzachi Hanegbi, whose mother was Geulah Cohen, that self-described "woman of violence" who was in the terrorist Stern Gang with Yitzhak Shamir, which carried out the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, which carried out the Deir Yassin massacre, these kind of activities. <p /> <p />And by the early '70s, these young Turks like Hanegbi and Netanyahu were actually attempting to move to the right of their intellectual and political forebears like Shamir and Cohen. Hanegbi formed a group called Kastel, which was a student group at Hebrew University, and they were known for attacking Arab students on campus. And he appointed as his guard, the guard of this right-wing club, a young Moldovan baggage handler from Ben Gurion International Airport named Avigdor Lieberman. And Netanyahu met them both and helped them both up the Likud ranks until they are both in cabinet positions or ministerial positions in Netanyahu's first government. So the settlers really celebrated Netanyahu coming into power in '96, because he had these right-wing figures populating the corridors of power. <p /> <p />Yitzhak Rabin had just been assassinated for negotiating the Oslo Accords by a right-wing fanatic who went to school at Bar-Ilan University, Yigal Amir. And you just mentioned Netanyahu's speech in 1989 at Bar-Ilan calling for mass expulsion of Palestinians. <p /> <p />And so all of a sudden Netanyahu comes under pressure from Washington to negotiate the Hebron Accords, which have proven disastrous, and he's reneged on the entire agreement; and then the Wye River accords with Arafat. <p /> <p />And so the settlers completely turned their back on Netanyahu. His base falls out from under him. <p /> <p />And then this view develops of Netanyahu that he talks tough, that he uses language like you heard at Bar-Ilan in 1989, but he's the only one who can actually bring the right around to make peace, and he actually wants to make peace. It's kind of like Nixon going to China. So when Netanyahu was elected in 2009, many people in Washington who would ally themselves with the Labor Party actually welcomed Netanyahu and saw him as this pushover. And Netanyahu went back to Bar-Ilan University in 2009 and described his vision for peace of two states living side by side and said that he believes in peace talks--the operative word being talks--because it was his mentor, Yitzhak Shamir, who conceived a plan at the dawn of the peace process to carry out talks for ten years--and he said this openly--and settle half a million Jews in the West Bank. <p /> <p />Now there there are almost half a million Jews in the West Bank, and these talks have been going on for over 20 years, maybe 25 years. And this is Netanyahu's strategy. And it's been so successful that he no longer has to pretend that he believes in two states anymore. He no longer has to pretend in this vision of peace. <p /> <p />So two weeks ago, Netanyahu went back to Bar-Ilan University to give another major national security speech. And there in the academic mecca of the religious nationalist movement he returned to his ideological roots, the real Netanyahu of 1989, the Netanyahu that hung out with Hanegbi and Lieberman, and he declared that the Palestinians are the heirs to Nazi Germany, that they are directly responsible for the Final Solution and directly responsible for the slaughter of 4,000 Jewish children in Europe, which is completely false. It's an allegation first introduced by Alan Dershowitz, which is unproven. And he said that for us to make peace, we have to first remove the poisonous tumor of anti-Semitism from the Palestinians. And he used the word kibbush, or occupation, with a sarcastic tone to suggest that Palestinian resentment of the state of Israel has nothing to do with occupation or colonialism; it has to do with pure, endemic anti-Semitism and Naziism. And this is dangerous rhetoric, considering the amount of--I mean, you just read my book and read about the amount of mob violence targeting Palestinians and non-Jewish Africans, and you hear this rhetoric from the leader of Israel. Words have consequences. And so this was really an episode not just of incitement but of Netanyahu flaunting his power in the face of the U.S., which has enforced the status quo, allowing the right to go grow beneath Netanyahu and go even further to the right. <p /> <p />So you look at this progression that I've described from Yitzhak Shamir, from the Stern Gang, to Netanyahu, who's gone to the right of Shamir, two people in the Likud Party who grew up in the post-Oslo era who never took the peace process seriously, like Naftali Bennett, who'is the head of the Jewish Home Party, which is the third-largest party in Israel right now and is making gains in municipal elections, people like Tzipi Hotovely, who's 32 years old and is a rising figure. She's a deputy transportation minister, which is a stepping stone to even higher office. And she has held hearings in the Knesset on the dangers of miscegenation or Jewish-Arab dating. She favors annexing the West Bank. Danny Danon, who's one of Netanyahu's principal challengers in the Likud Party, is, like, 42 years old, speaks horrible English, favors annexing the West Bank, writes these op-eds for The New York Times calling for a single apartheid state--I mean, these people want to bring apartheid completely out into the open. Netanyahu at least has had a strategy to counter the pressure from Washington and maintain the status quo beneath peace talks. <p /> <p />So where is the center in Israel? Netanyahu occupies the hollow center, and he has no choice but to consistently move to his right to mollify the right-wing base while the Labor Party, under the control of Shelly Yachimovich, focuses on things like the price of cottage cheese and the national insurance system and is bunkering in Tel Aviv and Haifa and in the epicenters of the enlightened public and completely has given up or has almost completely given up on the concept of two states and has relieved Netanyahu of any pressure from his left. <p /> <p />JAY: If this concept of annexing the West Bank, then how do they deal with the idea of voting and one person, one vote? I mean, the demographics are clearly against a Jewish state. So if they're going to have it, they have to--have to go to open apartheid, which is you're going to have some people can vote and others can't. <p /> <p />BLUMENTHAL: Right. I mean, Netanyahu has already appointed a committee to explore the feasibility of annexing 60&amp;#160;percent of the West Bank, which is Area C. This area was created under Oslo. It's the area where most of the settlers live and the fewest Palestinians live. And so, through Oslo, signed by Rabin and Arafat, the stage was set for this annexation project. We have to see the Labor Party's fingerprints on this as well. <p /> <p />And what people like Naftali Bennett claim is through an annexation plan there won't be enough Palestinians in the Area C to compromise the demographic majority of Jews over the whole land. They can be given citizenship. Meanwhile, the rest of the Palestinians in the West Bank will live in these kind of bantustan clusters surrounded by walls and checkpoints with their movement limited, and they will be given Jordanian citizenship. So Palestinian quasi-state is off the table. Apartheid's in the open. But the Palestinians will be given the same kind of status that Palestinians who live in East Jerusalem have. And then you have a small amount who will be given some kind of putative Israeli citizenship. And then the Gaza Strip will just exist as this kind of territory without--with this kind of besieged human warehousing project that will have no connection to the West Bank. And eventually the goal of the Israeli right, which they've expressed openly, is to hand Gaza over to Egypt, which I can't really foresee happening. <p /> <p />But they have a very clear blueprint, a very clear blueprint, and they intend to make good on it. And the U.S. is well aware of it. <p /> <p />JAY: And this is combined with this idea of expulsion. <p /> <p />BLUMENTHAL: It's not just about expulsion. It's more about ghettoization and human warehousing and apartheid. I don't know--but you can expect, though, that in Area C--I expect that if this plan comes into place, Palestinians who gain citizenship in Area C will start to face a rapid, a more aggressive wave of settler attacks to push them into Area A, the bantustans, where they can then be stripped of their citizenship. And, I mean, if you look at how Israel's handled citizenship in Jerusalem, they've actually enacted laws, which have been validated by municipal courts, where Palestinians who previously--who had moved to areas of Jerusalem that were declared part of the Jerusalem municipality which used to be in the West Bank, they've told them that if you move there after 2004, when it became part of the Jerusalem municipality, you can't gain residency and you only have PA status. That sounds really complicated, but I'm just trying to illustrate how Israel's been able to carefully manipulate demographics through areas where it's taken control. <p /> <p />JAY: And this is the deal they want the Palestinians to call a two-state solution [crosstalk] annexation. <p /> <p />BLUMENTHAL: Well, no. I mean, we're talking about the annexation plan. The two-state solution is very--is actually--. <p /> <p />JAY: Well, what is the sector that out of this 60&amp;#160;percent? What do they call that? It becomes a what? <p /> <p />BLUMENTHAL: I mean, that's--in any case, that's what would become the Palestinian state under a two-state solution that they can't seem to negotiate. But the people--. <p /> <p />JAY: But the idea is, if you can't negotiate this structure, then you do it unilaterally. <p /> <p />BLUMENTHAL: You do it unilaterally, and instead of giving the people in Area A, which is the big cities--Ramallah, Bethlehem, Hebron, Nablus--Palestinian citizenship, which would give them votes at the UN and enable them to increase moderately some pressure on the state of Israel to give them more rights to airspace and that kind of thing, you give them Jordanian citizenship or Jordanian residency, which enables--it improves their freedom of movement, but it strips them of their Palestinian identity. <p /> <p />And that's--again, all of this is contingent on Washington. And Washington maintaining the status quo for so many years has brought this plan into the open. And the future leaders of Israel intend to make good on this plan. And I see no evidence from Washington that they will do anything to counter it. In fact, when you really talk to diplomats who are in the tank, who are in the Beltway, and you say, would you have a plan for what comes after the two-state solution, 'cause it's not going to happen, the best thing they can tell you is, we will increase aid to the Palestinians. That's what John Kerry and Tony Blair's plan is that they introduced at the world economic forum in Jordan was a $4&amp;#160;billion economic plan to dump more aid and charity into these occupied bantustans in the Palestinian Authority as a substitute for a state. I mean, and is that acceptable? Can the world except that? Well, we know that the United States can accept it. <p /> <p />JAY: When Netanyahu gets 20-some outstanding ovations in Congress,-- <p /> <p />BLUMENTHAL: Thirty-five more than Barack Obama got during his State of the Union. <p /> <p />JAY: --how aware of all of this do you think the members of Congress are? <p /> <p />BLUMENTHAL: Members of Congress could give two craps, they could give less than one iota of two craps about what happens over there. This is one of the few pieces of reporting in Peter arts book, The Crisis of Zionism, that I thought was really valuable, which is he had sources who told him that each member of Congress got a VIP ticket for Netanyahu's speech, and they each brought their top donor from AIPAC. And Debbie Wasserman Schultz, who's a member of Congress, who's, you know, a kind of a key link to the Israeli lobby, was given hand motions on when to cheer and when not to. And so, you know--. <p /> <p />JAY: Her hand must have gotten tired. <p /> <p />BLUMENTHAL: But the point of this is that the Democrats and the Republicans are engaged in a bipartisan project to deny the Palestinians any future. And for a liberal Democrat, why reject all of the donations that you're being offered and basically set yourself up for the kind of rancorous political environment and antagonism you're going to receive when your real agenda focuses on serving your constituents and maybe getting them better health care, providing them with services, and bringing porkbarrel projects back into your district? So the Palestinian have to be sacrificed for all that. <p /> <p />And I don't talk about U.S. Congress in my book. I don't talk about geopolitics very much. I don't talk about the broader Middle East very much. I just talk about the consequences of this policy on the ground, the facts on the ground that have been created by the U.S. policy, by the bipartisan consensus around maintaining the status quo in Israel-Palestine. <p /> <p />JAY: Well, that's one of the criticisms of the book that's so far hit the press. And in the next segment of our interview, we're going to talk about some of the criticism of Max's book. <p /> <p />Please join us for the next segment of our interview with Max on Reality Asserts Itself on The Real News Network. <p /> <p />End <p /> <p />DISCLAIMER: Please note that transcripts for The Real News Network are typed from a recording of the program. TRNN cannot guarantee their complete accuracy.

Netanyahu's Greater Israel Based on Expulsion and Annexation - Max Blumenthal on Reality Asserts Itself pt3

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option%3Dcom_content%26task%3Dview%26id%3D31%26Itemid%3D74%26jumival%3D10939

2013-10-30

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Max Blumenthal is an awardwinning journalist and bestselling author whose articles and video documentaries have appeared in The New York Times The Los Angeles Times The Daily Beast The Nation The Guardian The Independent Film Channel The Huffington Post Saloncom Al Jazeera English and many other publications His most recent book is Goliath Life and Loathing in Greater Israel His other book Republican Gomorrah Inside The Movement That Shattered The Party is a New York Times and Los Angeles Times bestseller Max is cohost of the podcast Moderate Rebels PAUL JAY SENIOR EDITOR TRNN Welcome to The Real News Network Im Paul Jay in Baltimore And welcome to Reality Asserts Itself Were continuing our series of interviews with author Max Blumenthal about his new book Goliath Life and Loathing a Greater Israel In the previous sections of the interview weve been talking about the far right and the center and their policy of expulsion of Arab citizens of Israel Of course the primary face of Israel is Benjamin Netanyahu its prime minister who would not overtly talk this way these days but at the root of his thinking he seems to not be in a different position than the others we have covered in this series Heres a quote from Maxs book Like every Israeli Prime Minister before him Netanyahus strategy depended on increasing the number of Jews living on Israelicontrolled territory and reducing the number of Palestinians In Novemberamp1601989 while he served as a junior minister in Shamirs government Netanyahu spoke at BarIlan University the academic mecca of religious nationalism in Israel Quote Israel should have taken advantage of the suppression of the demonstrations in China in Tiananmen Square when the worlds attention was focused on what was happening in that country to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories end quote Netanyahu told his audience However to my regret they did not support that policy that I proposed and which I still propose should be implemented Now joining us in the studio is Max Blumenthal Max is an awardwinning journalist and bestselling author whose articles and video documentaries have appeared in many publications His most recent book is Goliath Life and Loathing in Greater Israel Thanks for joining us MAX BLUMENTHAL AUTHOR JOURNALIST BLOGGER Good to be with you JAY So Benjamin Netanyahu would again not allow the West to see this face of his but this seems to be part of his ideology as well the idea of expulsion BLUMENTHAL It has been And you know I write about Netanyahus experience as part of the post67 generation There had always been you know a strong rightwing element within the Zionist movement but it had always been kind of the junior partner to the labor Zionist movement And Zeev Jabotinskys most famous essay which he wrote in 1923 The Iron Wall kind of laid out the strategic deterrence strategy of the Israelis which is pure colonialism using kind of a strategy of pure force because they could never make peace with the indigenous Arab population And so they will have to suppress them through violence And Jabotinsky said theres no difference between our vegetarians and our meat eaters And so Jabotinskys press secretary in New York was Netanyahus father Benzion And so Netanyahu emerges from this kind of environment The Iron Wall was adopted by the labor Zionist movement as the official strategic deterrence strategy of Israel And its now embodied in a literal iron wall which is the separation wall along the West Bank And so Netanyahu moves into Israeli politics in the early 70s and his comrades are people like Tzachi Hanegbi whose mother was Geulah Cohen that selfdescribed woman of violence who was in the terrorist Stern Gang with Yitzhak Shamir which carried out the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem which carried out the Deir Yassin massacre these kind of activities And by the early 70s these young Turks like Hanegbi and Netanyahu were actually attempting to move to the right of their intellectual and political forebears like Shamir and Cohen Hanegbi formed a group called Kastel which was a student group at Hebrew University and they were known for attacking Arab students on campus And he appointed as his guard the guard of this rightwing club a young Moldovan baggage handler from Ben Gurion International Airport named Avigdor Lieberman And Netanyahu met them both and helped them both up the Likud ranks until they are both in cabinet positions or ministerial positions in Netanyahus first government So the settlers really celebrated Netanyahu coming into power in 96 because he had these rightwing figures populating the corridors of power Yitzhak Rabin had just been assassinated for negotiating the Oslo Accords by a rightwing fanatic who went to school at BarIlan University Yigal Amir And you just mentioned Netanyahus speech in 1989 at BarIlan calling for mass expulsion of Palestinians And so all of a sudden Netanyahu comes under pressure from Washington to negotiate the Hebron Accords which have proven disastrous and hes reneged on the entire agreement and then the Wye River accords with Arafat And so the settlers completely turned their back on Netanyahu His base falls out from under him And then this view develops of Netanyahu that he talks tough that he uses language like you heard at BarIlan in 1989 but hes the only one who can actually bring the right around to make peace and he actually wants to make peace Its kind of like Nixon going to China So when Netanyahu was elected in 2009 many people in Washington who would ally themselves with the Labor Party actually welcomed Netanyahu and saw him as this pushover And Netanyahu went back to BarIlan University in 2009 and described his vision for peace of two states living side by side and said that he believes in peace talksthe operative word being talksbecause it was his mentor Yitzhak Shamir who conceived a plan at the dawn of the peace process to carry out talks for ten yearsand he said this openlyand settle half a million Jews in the West Bank Now there there are almost half a million Jews in the West Bank and these talks have been going on for over 20 years maybe 25 years And this is Netanyahus strategy And its been so successful that he no longer has to pretend that he believes in two states anymore He no longer has to pretend in this vision of peace So two weeks ago Netanyahu went back to BarIlan University to give another major national security speech And there in the academic mecca of the religious nationalist movement he returned to his ideological roots the real Netanyahu of 1989 the Netanyahu that hung out with Hanegbi and Lieberman and he declared that the Palestinians are the heirs to Nazi Germany that they are directly responsible for the Final Solution and directly responsible for the slaughter of 4000 Jewish children in Europe which is completely false Its an allegation first introduced by Alan Dershowitz which is unproven And he said that for us to make peace we have to first remove the poisonous tumor of antiSemitism from the Palestinians And he used the word kibbush or occupation with a sarcastic tone to suggest that Palestinian resentment of the state of Israel has nothing to do with occupation or colonialism it has to do with pure endemic antiSemitism and Naziism And this is dangerous rhetoric considering the amount ofI mean you just read my book and read about the amount of mob violence targeting Palestinians and nonJewish Africans and you hear this rhetoric from the leader of Israel Words have consequences And so this was really an episode not just of incitement but of Netanyahu flaunting his power in the face of the US which has enforced the status quo allowing the right to go grow beneath Netanyahu and go even further to the right So you look at this progression that Ive described from Yitzhak Shamir from the Stern Gang to Netanyahu whos gone to the right of Shamir two people in the Likud Party who grew up in the postOslo era who never took the peace process seriously like Naftali Bennett whois the head of the Jewish Home Party which is the thirdlargest party in Israel right now and is making gains in municipal elections people like Tzipi Hotovely whos 32 years old and is a rising figure Shes a deputy transportation minister which is a stepping stone to even higher office And she has held hearings in the Knesset on the dangers of miscegenation or JewishArab dating She favors annexing the West Bank Danny Danon whos one of Netanyahus principal challengers in the Likud Party is like 42 years old speaks horrible English favors annexing the West Bank writes these opeds for The New York Times calling for a single apartheid stateI mean these people want to bring apartheid completely out into the open Netanyahu at least has had a strategy to counter the pressure from Washington and maintain the status quo beneath peace talks So where is the center in Israel Netanyahu occupies the hollow center and he has no choice but to consistently move to his right to mollify the rightwing base while the Labor Party under the control of Shelly Yachimovich focuses on things like the price of cottage cheese and the national insurance system and is bunkering in Tel Aviv and Haifa and in the epicenters of the enlightened public and completely has given up or has almost completely given up on the concept of two states and has relieved Netanyahu of any pressure from his left JAY If this concept of annexing the West Bank then how do they deal with the idea of voting and one person one vote I mean the demographics are clearly against a Jewish state So if theyre going to have it they have tohave to go to open apartheid which is youre going to have some people can vote and others cant BLUMENTHAL Right I mean Netanyahu has already appointed a committee to explore the feasibility of annexing 60amp160percent of the West Bank which is Area C This area was created under Oslo Its the area where most of the settlers live and the fewest Palestinians live And so through Oslo signed by Rabin and Arafat the stage was set for this annexation project We have to see the Labor Partys fingerprints on this as well And what people like Naftali Bennett claim is through an annexation plan there wont be enough Palestinians in the Area C to compromise the demographic majority of Jews over the whole land They can be given citizenship Meanwhile the rest of the Palestinians in the West Bank will live in these kind of bantustan clusters surrounded by walls and checkpoints with their movement limited and they will be given Jordanian citizenship So Palestinian quasistate is off the table Apartheids in the open But the Palestinians will be given the same kind of status that Palestinians who live in East Jerusalem have And then you have a small amount who will be given some kind of putative Israeli citizenship And then the Gaza Strip will just exist as this kind of territory withoutwith this kind of besieged human warehousing project that will have no connection to the West Bank And eventually the goal of the Israeli right which theyve expressed openly is to hand Gaza over to Egypt which I cant really foresee happening But they have a very clear blueprint a very clear blueprint and they intend to make good on it And the US is well aware of it JAY And this is combined with this idea of expulsion BLUMENTHAL Its not just about expulsion Its more about ghettoization and human warehousing and apartheid I dont knowbut you can expect though that in Area CI expect that if this plan comes into place Palestinians who gain citizenship in Area C will start to face a rapid a more aggressive wave of settler attacks to push them into Area A the bantustans where they can then be stripped of their citizenship And I mean if you look at how Israels handled citizenship in Jerusalem theyve actually enacted laws which have been validated by municipal courts where Palestinians who previouslywho had moved to areas of Jerusalem that were declared part of the Jerusalem municipality which used to be in the West Bank theyve told them that if you move there after 2004 when it became part of the Jerusalem municipality you cant gain residency and you only have PA status That sounds really complicated but Im just trying to illustrate how Israels been able to carefully manipulate demographics through areas where its taken control JAY And this is the deal they want the Palestinians to call a twostate solution crosstalk annexation BLUMENTHAL Well no I mean were talking about the annexation plan The twostate solution is veryis actually JAY Well what is the sector that out of this 60amp160percent What do they call that It becomes a what BLUMENTHAL I mean thatsin any case thats what would become the Palestinian state under a twostate solution that they cant seem to negotiate But the people JAY But the idea is if you cant negotiate this structure then you do it unilaterally BLUMENTHAL You do it unilaterally and instead of giving the people in Area A which is the big citiesRamallah Bethlehem Hebron NablusPalestinian citizenship which would give them votes at the UN and enable them to increase moderately some pressure on the state of Israel to give them more rights to airspace and that kind of thing you give them Jordanian citizenship or Jordanian residency which enablesit improves their freedom of movement but it strips them of their Palestinian identity And thatsagain all of this is contingent on Washington And Washington maintaining the status quo for so many years has brought this plan into the open And the future leaders of Israel intend to make good on this plan And I see no evidence from Washington that they will do anything to counter it In fact when you really talk to diplomats who are in the tank who are in the Beltway and you say would you have a plan for what comes after the twostate solution cause its not going to happen the best thing they can tell you is we will increase aid to the Palestinians Thats what John Kerry and Tony Blairs plan is that they introduced at the world economic forum in Jordan was a 4amp160billion economic plan to dump more aid and charity into these occupied bantustans in the Palestinian Authority as a substitute for a state I mean and is that acceptable Can the world except that Well we know that the United States can accept it JAY When Netanyahu gets 20some outstanding ovations in Congress BLUMENTHAL Thirtyfive more than Barack Obama got during his State of the Union JAY how aware of all of this do you think the members of Congress are BLUMENTHAL Members of Congress could give two craps they could give less than one iota of two craps about what happens over there This is one of the few pieces of reporting in Peter arts book The Crisis of Zionism that I thought was really valuable which is he had sources who told him that each member of Congress got a VIP ticket for Netanyahus speech and they each brought their top donor from AIPAC And Debbie Wasserman Schultz whos a member of Congress whos you know a kind of a key link to the Israeli lobby was given hand motions on when to cheer and when not to And so you know JAY Her hand must have gotten tired BLUMENTHAL But the point of this is that the Democrats and the Republicans are engaged in a bipartisan project to deny the Palestinians any future And for a liberal Democrat why reject all of the donations that youre being offered and basically set yourself up for the kind of rancorous political environment and antagonism youre going to receive when your real agenda focuses on serving your constituents and maybe getting them better health care providing them with services and bringing porkbarrel projects back into your district So the Palestinian have to be sacrificed for all that And I dont talk about US Congress in my book I dont talk about geopolitics very much I dont talk about the broader Middle East very much I just talk about the consequences of this policy on the ground the facts on the ground that have been created by the US policy by the bipartisan consensus around maintaining the status quo in IsraelPalestine JAY Well thats one of the criticisms of the book thats so far hit the press And in the next segment of our interview were going to talk about some of the criticism of Maxs book Please join us for the next segment of our interview with Max on Reality Asserts Itself on The Real News Network End DISCLAIMER Please note that transcripts for The Real News Network are typed from a recording of the program TRNN cannot guarantee their complete accuracy

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providing/VERB them/PRON with/ADP services/NOUN and/CCONJ bringing/VERB porkbarrel/NOUN projects/NOUN back/ADV into/ADP your/PRON district/NOUN So/ADV the/DET Palestinian/PROPN have/VERB to/PART be/AUX sacrificed/VERB for/ADP all/DET that/PRON And/CCONJ I/PRON do/AUX nt/PART talk/VERB about/ADP US/PROPN Congress/PROPN in/ADP my/PRON book/NOUN I/PRON do/AUX nt/PART talk/VERB about/ADP geopolitics/NOUN very/ADV much/ADV I/PRON do/AUX nt/PART talk/VERB about/ADP the/DET broader/ADJ Middle/PROPN East/PROPN very/ADV much/ADV I/PRON just/ADV talk/VERB about/ADP the/DET consequences/NOUN of/ADP this/DET policy/NOUN on/ADP the/DET ground/NOUN the/DET facts/NOUN on/ADP the/DET ground/NOUN that/PRON have/AUX been/AUX created/VERB by/ADP the/DET US/PROPN policy/NOUN by/ADP the/DET bipartisan/ADJ consensus/NOUN around/ADP maintaining/VERB the/DET status/NOUN quo/NOUN in/ADP IsraelPalestine/PROPN JAY/PROPN Well/INTJ that/PRON s/VERB one/NUM of/ADP the/DET criticisms/NOUN of/ADP the/DET book/NOUN that/PRON s/AUX so/ADV far/ADV hit/VERB the/DET press/NOUN And/CCONJ in/ADP the/DET next/ADJ segment/NOUN of/ADP our/PRON interview/NOUN were/AUX going/VERB to/PART talk/VERB about/ADP some/PRON of/ADP the/DET criticism/NOUN of/ADP Maxs/PROPN book/NOUN Please/INTJ join/VERB us/PRON for/ADP the/DET next/ADJ segment/NOUN of/ADP our/PRON interview/NOUN with/ADP Max/PROPN on/ADP Reality/NOUN Asserts/VERB Itself/PRON on/ADP The/DET Real/PROPN News/PROPN Network/PROPN End/NOUN DISCLAIMER/PROPN Please/INTJ note/VERB that/SCONJ transcripts/NOUN for/ADP The/DET Real/PROPN News/PROPN Network/PROPN are/AUX typed/VERB from/ADP a/DET recording/NOUN of/ADP the/DET program/NOUN TRNN/PROPN can/AUX not/PART guarantee/VERB their/PRON complete/ADJ accuracy/NOUN

"<p>Is President Obama&#8217;s spending an &#8220;inferno,&#8221; as Mitt Romney claims, or a binge (...TRUNCATED)

Obama’s Spending: ‘Inferno’ or Not?

https://factcheck.org/2012/06/obamas-spending-inferno-or-not/

2012-06-04

2least

"Is President Obama8217s spending an 8220inferno8221 as Mitt Romney claims or a binge that 8220never(...TRUNCATED)

"Is/AUX President/PROPN Obama8217s/PROPN spending/VERB an/DET 8220inferno8221/NOUN as/SCONJ Mitt/PRO(...TRUNCATED)

"<p>A group of Malaysian people pray during an event for the missing plane. Kamal Sellehuddin/ZUMA</(...TRUNCATED)

Why Did the Media Devote So Much Attention to the Missing Malaysian Airplane?

https://motherjones.com/politics/2014/04/media-attention-missing-malaysian-airplane-flight-370/

2014-04-03

4left

"A group of Malaysian people pray during an event for the missing plane Kamal SellehuddinZUMA This s(...TRUNCATED)

"A/DET group/NOUN of/ADP Malaysian/ADJ people/NOUN pray/VERB during/ADP an/DET event/NOUN for/ADP th(...TRUNCATED)

"<p /> \n\n<p><a href=\"/about/advertising/contact-form\" type=\"external\">Advertise on MotherJones(...TRUNCATED)

Triumph of the Drill: How Big Oil Clings to Billions in Government Giveaways

https://motherjones.com/politics/2014/04/oil-subsidies-renewable-energy-tax-breaks/

2014-04-14

4left

"Advertise on MotherJonescom Over the past century the federal government has pumped more than 470 b(...TRUNCATED)

"Advertise/VERB on/ADP MotherJonescom/PROPN Over/ADP the/DET past/ADJ century/NOUN the/DET federal/A(...TRUNCATED)

"<p>&amp;lt;a href=\"http://www.shutterstock.com/cat.mhtml?lang=en&amp;amp;search_source=search_form(...TRUNCATED)

Why Our Debate About Surveillance Doesn’t Go Far Enough

https://motherjones.com/politics/2014/01/why-our-debate-about-surveillance-doesnt-go-far-enough/

2014-01-06

4left

"amplta hrefhttpwwwshutterstockcomcatmhtmllangenampampsearch_sourcesearch_formampampversionllv1ampam(...TRUNCATED)

"amplta/PROPN hrefhttpwwwshutterstockcomcatmhtmllangenampampsearch_sourcesearch_formampampversionllv(...TRUNCATED)

"<p>Q: Did then-Sen. Barack Obama get a law \"passed in dead silence\" that allowed black farmers to(...TRUNCATED)

Obama and the ‘Pigford’ Cases

https://factcheck.org/2011/04/obama-and-the-pigford-cases/

2011-04-29

2least

"Q Did thenSen Barack Obama get a law passed in dead silence that allowed black farmers to file unla(...TRUNCATED)

"Q/NOUN Did/VERB thenSen/PUNCT Barack/PROPN Obama/PROPN get/VERB a/DET law/NOUN passed/VERB in/ADP d(...TRUNCATED)

"<p /> \n\n<p /> \n\n<p /> \n\n<p /> PAUL JAY, SENIOR EDITOR, TRNN: Welcome to The Real News Network(...TRUNCATED)

Baltimore, Race and the Occupy Movement

"http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option%3Dcom_content%26task%3Dview%26id%3D31%26Itemid%3D74%26ju(...TRUNCATED)

2012-10-25

4left

"PAUL JAY SENIOR EDITOR TRNN Welcome to The Real News Network Im Paul Jay in Baltimore Its one year (...TRUNCATED)

"PAUL/PROPN JAY/PROPN SENIOR/PROPN EDITOR/NOUN TRNN/PROPN Welcome/PROPN to/ADP The/DET Real/PROPN Ne(...TRUNCATED)

"<p>&amp;lt;a href=\"http://www.flickr.com/photos/donkeyhotey/5325453058/sizes/z/in/photostream/\"&a(...TRUNCATED)

The Rich, White, Conservative GOP Must Change, But It Won’t

https://motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/rich-white-conservative-gop-must-change-it-wont/

2012-12-13

4left

"amplta hrefhttpwwwflickrcomphotosdonkeyhotey5325453058sizeszinphotostreamampgtDonkeyHoteyampltaampg(...TRUNCATED)

"amplta/NOUN hrefhttpwwwflickrcomphotosdonkeyhotey5325453058sizeszinphotostreamampgtDonkeyHoteyamplt(...TRUNCATED)

"<p>Donald Trump has a plan to solve America&#8217;s drug crisis: kill the drug dealers.</p> \n\n<p>(...TRUNCATED)

The President’s BFFs Are the World’s Greatest Human Rights Abusers

https://truthdig.com/articles/the-presidents-bffs-are-the-worlds-greatest-human-rights-abusers/

2018-03-26

4left

"Donald Trump has a plan to solve America8217s drug crisis kill the drug dealers 8220We have pushers(...TRUNCATED)

"Donald/PROPN Trump/PROPN has/VERB a/DET plan/NOUN to/PART solve/VERB America8217s/ADJ drug/NOUN cri(...TRUNCATED)