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df5a47e90a58-66 | pushing to make this a part of all kinds of decision making so supposing there is a fund that is going to invest or a large companies are going to invest they are supposed to take care of something called these three years the environment social and governance Norms to take decisions okay now sounds like a good thing to do we should all agree environment social governance things are good things to do now what happens however is these are actually subjective things okay what is good for social Society is there's no objective uh thing there are at least at the margin a lot of it is uh uh basically somebody's opinion yeah so what now we will do is we will now uh create a bunch of people who will impose on you uh what those Norms are so I so let's say I accept that those Norms are good then you know a ESG rating a company will pop up somewhere and then it will deconstruct you and tell you this is what you should be doing and now because I'm stuck | e64JTo7LMmY |
df5a47e90a58-67 | you should be doing and now because I'm stuck with this being I've accepted this framework I will have to take decisions in a particular way so this is a well-established system already but it's uh you know you have uh think tanks in the west uh like for example uh vdm in Sweden or Freedom House in the US or Chatham House in London they are in this business of creating Global narratives so you and I may think that certain things is actually a gospel of truth but in fact it has been put inside our head and these things can be quite powerful um and so for example we recently had redempt came out with a A list of uh great democracies in the world okay uh it's a 140 count countries now we are the world's largest democracy we are rated 108. okay just above Pakistan by the way okay if there is a list also some of these guys have done of academic freedom okay in in that list we are rated below Afghanistan I mean how Who does these things | e64JTo7LMmY |
df5a47e90a58-68 | below Afghanistan I mean how Who does these things but you see if it is not managed if you are not paying attention what happens is that you may not know that this index even exists but that index goes into another index which goes into this ESG norm and then your life is being run by these indices and this is happening very systematically and I have written very I've been writing about this for a while we need to pay attention to it and now what will happen is that you have now let's say an AI chat chat GPT or something that gets trained to feed on this so let's say in a few years you could you could actually type out is India a democracy and chat GPT has been trained to go and look at these specific places and come out no India is not a democracy even though blatantly you can see that it's a democracy but chat GPT will tell you that it is not because you will then create an in completely alternate iterative reality based on these things | e64JTo7LMmY |
df5a47e90a58-69 | in completely alternate iterative reality based on these things so and so this is why I I think this is something we need to be very careful about create debate about it and push back because if you don't do this actively you will be deconstructed and told what to do it's a form of new colonization yeah exactly this is what uh they said barely to break away I just want to say that you know how in school you have a crush on a girl for the first time uh sometimes you have a crush on a guy it's a man crush it's not a sexual Crush right or a romantic crush and sometimes you just have a crush on someone's mind I currently just developed a crush on your mind this is this is a very widespread kind of uh opinion that you've given and this is what's missing from the internet today and this is exactly why podcasts are growing because you get to explain things in this nuanced manner so I have been very much engaged with | e64JTo7LMmY |
df5a47e90a58-70 | manner so I have been very much engaged with this debate for some years and even in things which may seem like this is uh completely objective somebody you know the ILO has gone and done this study or who know what they're doing but a lot of it this is just garbage they made it up because they want to manipulate you in some way and many of these International organizations deliberately do this and I've just published a working paper uh just last week uh which says reversing the Gaze why reversing the case so all these go these International agencies love to tell us what to do so I have reversed the Gaze and looked at what their data methodology systems are and I'm sorry to say much of it is garbage [Music] and uh and they have like almost kindergarten level mistakes and many of them so you know so at the start of the podcast we spoke about the critics of the government um I think it is important for any government to be criticized to a | e64JTo7LMmY |
df5a47e90a58-71 | important for any government to be criticized to a certain absolutely but it becomes messy when the critics of the government refer to only the west and take these studies and then use it as gospel in order to criticize the government yes and by the way there are mistakes in our system the data systems also but there is clearly a tilt in a particular direction so yeah if I that there are mistakes in the world is not new but if they were all mistakes which are scattered around some are good some are bad that kind of thing that's not the case in all the investigations that I'm doing the the mistakes are always to the to the negative side the problem is always getting exaggerated rather than uh minimized then you begin to develop a somewhat of a suspicion case of some sort I mean in fact in many areas okay in order to explain this point a little deeper how does the Indian government look at this whole George Soros situation and also you spoke about how some | e64JTo7LMmY |
df5a47e90a58-72 | situation and also you spoke about how some of these situations are uh you effectively said that it's kind of geopolitically governed absolutely okay so there are powerful countries or powerful governments out there powerful interests because they sometimes those interests may be at loggerheads with their own government so for example let's you mentioned George Soros George Soros is a billionaire I think he's an American citizen of Hungarian origin uh he has historically uh used the his billions of dollars to essentially affect certain kinds of narratives in the world and also effect you know changes in government and all these kinds of things he pushes for now you you know as a country that's been colonized repeatedly and for hundreds of years we have a right to be suspicious about all of this and when he comes on television and says that you know uh India you know is wrong I'm going to put a billion dollars behind trying to we need to be extremely careful about this because it | e64JTo7LMmY |
df5a47e90a58-73 | need to be extremely careful about this because it is effectively somebody threatening our threatening regime change in our country right and especially given the known histories uh you know he has in the past caused a lot of economic damage in the world um and he's open about it uh he is himself by the way he claims that he is in this uh in this because he's promoting open societies democracy Etc because uh he um experienced the um Jewish Holocaust personally but in fact his own history is quite suspect he was 14 15 years old and he survived the Holocaust himself by essentially turning into an Informer uh and he's he he he is admitted to this on television so you know let's be very careful about it he was no heroic Auschwitz Survivor he was an Informer and then he escapes to the US becomes a very wealthy uh investor and then he uses this resources to carry out things which he believes is true he may genuinely believe these are | e64JTo7LMmY |
df5a47e90a58-74 | is true he may genuinely believe these are uh that he's doing good that I don't I know it's quite possible that he really thinks he's doing good but the fact of the matter is that is the point about democracy why should a person who's not even in the country have the right to tell us what is or isn't correct and use enormous resources then to sway us in a particular way uh as Indians forget whether I'm in the government or you like or dislike the current government this is an extremely dangerous thing which we must resist okay first of all Sanjeev so you give me too much to think about you've taught me a lot over this episode thank you uh pleasure yeah there's there's too much more to kind of mine out of your head I feel that your one of those people who needs to be asked the right questions and then like the nectar comes out uh I want to ask you so much more but because we have a bit of a shortage of time | e64JTo7LMmY |
df5a47e90a58-75 | because we have a bit of a shortage of time the one question I saved for the end was that as someone who's working with the government now what are you thinking about in near future in terms of reforms I think you highlighted infrastructure in this conversation that that's what PM Modi is uh really passionate about but I'm you know how we spoke about objectivity and subjectivity I feel often even in positions of leadership there is a certain amount of subjectivity and subjectivity can be positive for example if someone feels very intensely about one cause they'll put more Focus Energy power into that keeping all these aspects in mind what's going to happen in the next five to ten years for India and I've asked a lot of people this question I feel you're the right person to ask so next uh in the zero to five year Horizon I think we are very clear we're going to build out world-class infrastructure so we are here in Mumbai just look around you this now by the way has the largest | e64JTo7LMmY |
df5a47e90a58-76 | around you this now by the way has the largest concentration of cranes anywhere on the planet more than Shanghai Beijing or other places people tell you about largest concentration of cranes in the world right now Mumbai and you can see it just go to a tall building just look at the amount of construction that's happening we are building a massive Metro System all in one shot uh I think that the radial line that goes from colaba to uh or cuff parade all the way to seeps that on day one is going to be one of the most crowded Metro lines in the world um similarly we're building the coastal Road at the same time we are connecting through to the mainland through the harbor link there's a brand new airport coming out on the other end which will be significantly larger than the existing one so imagine the amount of infrastructure and this is just Mumbai and you know in Delhi also we're building a massive new airport and other things are going happening all the | e64JTo7LMmY |
df5a47e90a58-77 | airport and other things are going happening all the country so build out world-class infrastructure um and so that's uh that's the first thing that we are doing and and and that's already in the way this but if you're taking the five to ten year Horizon there are a bunch of things we need to do the top in my list other people may have other lists I'll tell you my list top in that list has got to be you've got to fix our legal system uh you may be aware every family everybody who's listening here somewhere in your family extended uh family there will be a case that's stuck there forever and ever and ever this is gonna be ridiculous you can't have a legal system like this if you want a modern economy you want delivery of Justice you want enforcement of contracts this is ludicrous we've got to fix this so in my top of list of things we need to solve in a decade Horizon has got to be this and it will take many uh steps uh there | e64JTo7LMmY |
df5a47e90a58-78 | this and it will take many uh steps uh there will be friction between the Judiciary and the government over different ideas of what needs to be done Etc but we're not we've got to get on and do this this is this cannot be delayed the second thing we need to big thing we need to do is to fix our uh bureaucracy and administrative system so the bureaucracy Administration system is a lot better than it used to be 20 years ago but still the you have to understand that the origins of this system and the way the architecture of the system is set up is set up for something else so where did our bureaucracy and administrative system come from it came from the colonial period what did they want to do their main job was really controlling the population there are tiny number of British administrators and their job was to make sure that they control the system as far as they could and that was the main thing now independence happens now the agenda should now shift to development growth | e64JTo7LMmY |
df5a47e90a58-79 | now the agenda should now shift to development growth Etc but we decide to do this we decide to become a socialist economy and remember I told you in the beginning about all those wise people sitting in Planning Commission well how do you make sure that everybody does all the things those wise men want to do well therefore you have in the Socialist system you have to perpetuate these controls so you created license permit Raj licenses have to be given I'll give you a license you do this yeah I'll give you a permit you do this and so that architecture of licenses or permits meant that this bureaucracy continued to basically have a mindset of control now 1991 happens suddenly the bureaucracy is has all these powers taken away from it and over time over the last 30 years these powers are slowly slowly whittled away so just a few years ago you wanted some passport or anything you have to go to a gazetted officer to get some signature why do you need to go | e64JTo7LMmY |
df5a47e90a58-80 | to get some signature why do you need to go to this visited officer again idea of control now what has happened is that in the last 30 years all the progress has happened by essentially withdrawing these powers from the bureaucracy but it has not been done by reforming the bureaucracy the bureaucracy even today is set up for control it just has fewer things that's allowed to control so it's withdrawn its powers but it has not improved the bureaucracy itself now we need to improve the bureaucracy to do the things it should do so far we are stopping from doing the things it shouldn't do now you should get it design it to do the things it should do which are which are you know delivery of Municipal services for example right and bureaucracy should be focused on uh getting your roads making sure your water supply comes on time these kinds of issues uh get making sure the health system works make sure the government schools uh the teachers turn up on time | e64JTo7LMmY |
df5a47e90a58-81 | the government schools uh the teachers turn up on time and so all those things that requires a service uh system not a instead of a control mindset you need a service mindset now that requires redesigning the administrative system itself there's no point in blaming an individual here that's not the problem we always keep oh if only the IIs officer IPS officer was better trained to leave the solution no it will not lead to a solution because the tools he's given the in the universe in which he or she functions is set up for doing something else there's no point in blaming the individual bureaucrat blame the system yeah you have to change the system now and there are remarkable people who are still doing great things inside this system and by the way also the Judiciary they are people who are delivering great things there is no point in asking an individual judge because the system itself is set up in a bizarre way and very often you know this whole system of you simply allowed to appeal at every stage against | e64JTo7LMmY |
df5a47e90a58-82 | you simply allowed to appeal at every stage against whoever so even if a judge gives a great judgment you can appeal against it so this is go on forever so the system in both the Judiciary and administration now needs to be changed uh I think this whole thing was set up in the 19th century we are now well into the 21st century we now need to create a system for the 21st century okay uh that's all I want to say wow like blown away by this conversation Blown Away by just the bank of knowledge uh and I'm feeling a sense of confidence as an Indian that there's guys like you in the government like who are running the show because thank you it was pleasure being here yeah and it was good fun as well no I'm glad sir uh again the perfectionist in me feels like I've not done Justice to this conversation but but maybe next time we'll talk about beer and bison leaves leaves room for another few chats I just hope you had fun | e64JTo7LMmY |
df5a47e90a58-83 | for another few chats I just hope you had fun I had fun that this turned out the way uh you expected yes it was great fun okay and um so as I said um a wide-ranging conversation and um hopefully your audience likes it too yeah you know there's few podcasts that I myself have to listen to again a bunch of times in order to prepare for the second one that's exactly what I'm going to do fabulous uh thank you for coming down to the studio sir uh lots more to learn from you all I want to say is that often the youth especially but even our parents generation they have these very sharp opinions and that's fine they've lived out life they've had their own experiences they have and that's part of being Indian too yeah 100 opinions uh but it is important to be able to change your opinion and it is important to be able to gather enough information in order to shape that opinion better that's what I'm trying to do through conversations like this with yourself with | e64JTo7LMmY |
df5a47e90a58-84 | to do through conversations like this with yourself with other people kind of from your domain so thank you for educating the internet right now the Indian internet needs more conversations like this so for digital listeners do you have any last message well I hope to be back here as you promised yes um and uh yeah we will have we'll have uh we'll discuss something else or maybe extend this conversation forward yeah honestly the ball's in yogurt because I know people are going to love this kind of conversation the Indian internet needs more of this super so see you here soon yeah Sanji sir thank you uh means a lot and looking forward to seeing you again that was the episode for today my friends honestly because of a time constraint I felt like I wasn't able to go as deep as I truly wish to go with Sanjeev sir this also leaves room for my next conversation with this fine gentleman because there's so much to learn from him it's very rare that you find this kind of a polymath | e64JTo7LMmY |
df5a47e90a58-85 | rare that you find this kind of a polymath who's also a fantastic Communicator I'm looking forward to doing many many more episodes with Sanjeev so I'm looking forward to learn from him so much more I love that at so many points in this podcast my bubble was burst thanks to his experience that's what the joy of podcasting is there's a lot of people who will make judgments or make assumptions about YouTubers and podcasters but what I like about our communities that we're all growing together me included this is an episode I felt like I grew in terms of knowledge this was a very new subject for me and I'm glad I got to learn with you folks so tell me guys one how can I improve these conversations with intellectuals like this uh my challenge is that I can't make it too deep because then it becomes too intense for younger audiences and I can't make it too shallow because then it's not a fun conversation so keeping that in mind please give | e64JTo7LMmY |
df5a47e90a58-86 | a fun conversation so keeping that in mind please give me your feedback also tell me who else you'd like to see on DRS also tell me that you're going to go and download my meditation app level on the apps from the Play Store also tell me how you're going to go follow us on Spotify because every episode is available on Spotify 48 hours before it's available anywhere else in the world TRS will be back soon then we will be back soon Sanjeev sir will be back soon and the Sonic will be back soon we'll see you later we're part of the change keep supporting TRS lots of love to you guys thank you [Music] | e64JTo7LMmY |
764aabd6fe00-0 | he used to get a cobra milk out most of the Venom and then let the cobras strike him on the tongue and so most of the effect of the Venom would go directly into the brain obviously that's a really dangerous thing to do but that's something he did because he wanted to he wanted to know the effect there's there's one thing about eating the Flesh of a dead body and that is just to make you go beyond disgust but you also have to remember that if you're eating the Flesh of that dead body you're taking on some of the karmas of the body just as you eat anything you eat a plant you're taking on some of the cutterness of the plant you eat meat you're taking some of the karmas of the animal you drink milk you're taking some of the karmas of the cow or the goat or whatever it is I didn't I don't have to go to the smashon though I go to banganga regularly since I've cremated people there | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-1 | to banganga regularly since I've cremated people there I love going to the cremation grounds but the cremation I mean you know the dead people come in my direction right above literally above my head the first episode that we created with Robert swoboda was simply an introduction to Agora and an introduction to some of the incidents that this human being has encountered while studying Agora with his Guru Swami vimalananda I highly recommend you check that episode first because I do promise you that this one's deeper this one's darker this one might make you slightly uncomfortable in certain moments I promise you this is not the last episode that we're recording with Dr soboda for more episodes of Dr is just like this make sure you follow TRS on Spotify but a Spotify exclusive every episode's available on Spotify 48 hours before it's available anywhere else in the world before I let you slip into this one as is the case with every single dark episode Our intention is simply or | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-2 | every single dark episode Our intention is simply or to teach you to go closer to the light all these episodes always highlight the power of meditation if you want to begin your meditation Journey the beer biceps teams meditation app level super mind is now live make sure you go check it out we've linked it down below this is Dr swaboda Who Returns on TRS thank you [Music] Proverbs for Buddha welcome back to the ranveer show thank you such an honor learning from you in the last episode this is the episode that's possibly going to be watched by a lot more people initially and then I'm sure they're gonna go back to the fullest episode first one was about the philosophy of Agora what it means what agoris are those actually do what they stand for you spoke about how how he met you and his initial uh journey into the world of Agora this one's a continuation sir where would you like to begin I think the the one thing that I might want to | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-3 | think the the one thing that I might want to to express to everyone is that Agora is a serious business and it's not something to take lightly like I I my hope is nobody would do this but just going off to The Cremation ground and sitting there and trying to see whether all this was possible or not is not a good is not a good thing to do it is very important to have a mentor to have a guru to have somebody who is monitoring what's going on with you because otherwise there are a lot of things that you cannot see that you may not be able to sense that are very subtle but sometimes the things that are most subtle can have the greatest effect on you I think possibly the play a good place to begin is to emphasize that Agora and Tantra for that matter these are these are subjects that are are quite serious and they are they are subjects that if you are not careful you can create problems for yourself you definitely need to know that this if | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-4 | yourself you definitely need to know that this if you ever wanted to do something in this regard you would first need to know that you were the kind of person that is aligned with this sort of thing this is something I've known I've been uh Bones have of dead animals and human and and humans have come to me even before I got involved in this direction and I and after studying Joe Tish astrology a little I've discovered that I'm in the rakshasa Gana that's a group of uh people who have an alignment with this kind of thing so first you want to make sure you have an alignment and second you need a mentor you need a guru somebody who can when you start to move in the wrong direction or possibly uh expose yourself to something that's dangerous we'll be able to bring you back protect you make sure that you that you're not permanently disturbed because this is the sort of thing that can create permanent disturbance um okay um is being a rakshas gun a | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-5 | um okay um is being a rakshas gun a bad thing and and probably explain a little bit about Gunners also yes so gonna that means he's the lord of the Gunners the word gonna and Sanskrit just means a category okay so there are all kinds of different categories in ayurveda we have character categories and there's their categories but in this this particular set of categories there's the the Deva gonna and the Deva means the Deva means uh shining one so we use David to mean the god a goddess the minutia means human beings and the raksha sagana rakshasa is a particular type of ethereal being who is more on the more the more Thomas filled side Thomas is very uh obstinate and very uh and and moving in the direction of of feeling very comfortable in darkness and if you don't if you were part of that gun there's nothing good or bad about being a part of one of these Gunners if you're part of the Deva Gana in Tantra there | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-6 | part of the Deva Gana in Tantra there are three uh three qualities of people who are attempting to work with Tantra and that that instead of Deva manusha and rakshasa they're called Divya Viera and um pushu and so that's an indication of whether a person should mostly do internal worship external worship or both so rakshasa minutia and Deva is more of an indication of should you do worship that is more satvika that is more calm and and deals with very gentle and not violent gods and goddesses or should you be rakshasa dealing with very violent gods and goddesses you understand that that violence is not something arbitrary like human violence often is it's it's the the the violence that's a manifestation of the reality of Life Death is a violent disconnection of of your life force from your body so there there this this reality and a blood drinking uh deities they are they are taking Prana not just from uh animals and plants they're taking | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-7 | not just from uh animals and plants they're taking piranha from you you have to offer your own Prana and you have to know how much of it you can offer it so that they are satisfied and so that you are not simply uh destroyed these These are cosmic forces and they have in when they become davitas that a a a a a a connection a portal an opening is created between you and that reality and you can only if you value your life as you should you can only go as far into that reality as you can um without being destroyed without being swept away I like to swim in the ocean but it it's it's not difficult to drown in the ocean and you have to know that how far you can go and you have to be able to feel how strong the pull of the water is otherwise you'll be and I've known people who have been killed by being swept away it's very dangerous by agoro uh fortunately thankfully I have not known people who | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-8 | uh fortunately thankfully I have not known people who have been swept away personally who've been swept away by Agoda but they're definitely I've heard of people who've been swept away who lose their minds who lose their minds who die Who who how would you die well suppose that I mean you could die in a good way that you are moving into the direction of something that is total Beyond you and your awareness goes there and it dissolves and and you can't come back to your body because you can't locate it anymore another less a pleasant way would be if you get connected to some ethereal being might be a spirit might be a demigod or Simi God and and you don't know what you're doing and that thing sucks all of your Vitality away um and and it's V and this one of the first things that I learned is that if you're going to work with it with ethereal beings it's your responsibility to know the rules because they're not going to tell | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-9 | to know the rules because they're not going to tell you what the rules are and it's it is not uncommon that somebody says oh my beloved deity please work through me and the deity does a lot of very good work through them but just burns right through their body that may be the right thing for you that may be why you were born but it also may not be so you need to have a clear idea of just how far you can go what you should be doing in this lifetime and then make it very clear to that devatad that this is the relationship we need I can I can make myself available this much but I can't let you take me over entirely because I have these responsibilities that I have to fulfill okay uh in the last episode you spoke about how you've done a few agori rituals um I don't know if this is a rude straightforward question but uh was that a ritual which was gruesome enough for an everyday person to think of as weird | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-10 | for an everyday person to think of as weird but which was a very normal part of Agora which you had done um I I I mean gruesome is an interesting word because some people will find some things more gruesome and other things less gruesome um uh I don't think anything was that I've done has been particularly gruesome I um I periodically offer my blood but I don't do that deliberately um it so happens that whenever it is the time and and I was told this by vemilananda I used to occasionally offer it deliberately but he said there's no need when when when the David when the when the deity requires your blood she'll take it from you so I find that happens that at a moment when I'm gonna do some kind of ritual whatever it may be and blood is required I will cut myself and then I just collect the blood and and offer it later so how do you cut yourself well I mean it's I I'm not trying to do it | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-11 | mean it's I I'm not trying to do it I mean the last time I did it there was there was a a spool of thread and a uh a needle and it was just sitting right there and I was about to start the ritual and I happened to stick my thumb down onto the needle and there was the needle and I just got a few drops of blood and he said you in my case at least you just need a few drops of blood you don't need to be you know cutting your throat and offering a tremendous amount just uh and what in this stage whatever the stage is you just need to when something like this will happen or I I stubbed my toe and some blood comes out so it's it's it's not like I'm deliberately doing it the the the moment comes the blood comes and then I offered the blood okay what's the beginning stage of becoming an aghori how do you actually begin if you're an everyday person and you know that the path is | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-12 | an everyday person and you know that the path is meant for you and you find a guru I'm assuming that the first stage is actually finding the first stage is to find a guru and in my case as with vimal and Nanda I I never wanted to go in that direction it's just after I met vimal Ananda after he and I he said you know here's the situation you already have these skulls you're already you know you're already moving in this direction this is something that you need to do also everybody who has anything to do with the Gorda has a different opinion of what Agoda means so there will be some people who say you cannot be in a gory unless you sit in this machine all the time and you always have a skull with you and you are always only living in this machine some people will say that I'm not uh uh and and that was not what I was taught but I acknowled I acknowledge that that may be what they were taught if you go to | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-13 | may be what they were taught if you go to Banaras um possibly the most famous agori maybe in history is named kinaram he lived about I think 300ish years ago and he still has a a stall he still has a location there in actually two locations now um and I met uh he's passed on now but I met one of the one of his uh spiritual descendants whose name was agoreshwara bhagavan Rama very great saint um but and he had done a lot of sadhna in The Cremation grounds uh and there are uh there of course cremation grounds not only in Banaras but all in that area there's a very fine one uh near vindhyachala uh and but after a while he said that because he saw people trying to follow the path that kinaram followed and he saw that they were not doing it very well and then he said let us let us think about what Agora really means what it means is things that are really terrifying to you you find a way to | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-14 | are really terrifying to you you find a way to adapt to and so then he asked himself what is something that is really terrifying and something that I would certainly find terrifying is the disease known as leprosy kushta we call it in Sanskrit Maha Krishna and so because if you get leprosy I mean they have treatments now but still it they take a long time and you can still disfigure yourself and it's a very horrible disease and so he said this is what is really horrible and most most people are terrified that if they if they uh serve lepers they will get leprosy themselves so he started on the other side of the river from Banaras and pardao he started a leprosarium a place for lepers to come and be treated and he spent lots of time there among the lepers because this was something that was is really terrifying to people but he said instead of you know what's so terrifying nowadays about The Cremation grounds everybody in bernara sees | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-15 | about The Cremation grounds everybody in bernara sees The Cremation grounds but that doesn't cause them everybody to change the way they think let's expose them to something that is really serious that they're not exposed to every day and make them get comfortable with that also that for him was the real Agora so everyone has Agora for sure is all about something that is hard to digest conceptually learning how to digest it but what that might be that is going to that's going to differ from Individual to individual um I have to ask you a little bit more about algorisa um what was your initial rituals like though like what did you end up doing are you allowed to talk about it um well I mean there's certain things I'm allowed to talk about but vimal Ananda never incurs there's you know Agora is a wide range of things so um in my personal case um there is offering blood sometimes I offer blood in the past I don't usually I have not done it for a long | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-16 | don't usually I have not done it for a long time I've also made offerings of minstrel blood which is a much stronger kind of offering because it is much more it has the energy of bringing things into manifestation in this plane of existence so working with that energy is very is it it it's a strong downward into the Earth element moving energy and if you want it to if you want it to have a spiritual effect you have to make sure that you are allowing that to be offered to the Earth element and then moving the energy back up in the direction of not simply getting stuck in the Earth element so that's one thing working with the skulls is another thing spending time in this machine is another thing working with Nasha with intoxicants that's another thing have you done that uh I have and I've it for several years Vemma Ananda said I had done that before I came to India and then for several years he wouldn't allow me to take any and then he started getting me | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-17 | me to take any and then he started getting me back into taking intoxicants and the idea of the intoxicant is that it temporarily changes your way of organizing your personality it changes your perspective and if you can the the idea is not to let yourself get carried away by whatever your your personality might want you to do but to take that focus and put it on whatever devatai you're trying to focus on and that can be a very useful kind of thing and the third thing that I um personally have worked with and again it's not something I deliberately did but it's something that has come to me uh kind of automatically is um well I mean one of the Sanskrit words is aveja means allowing various things devatas and sometimes other things to enter yourself and express themselves through you you've experienced that yes again that's something definitely you don't want to do on your own you want somebody to say this is the direction you need to go in vimalananda used to do this | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-18 | need to go in vimalananda used to do this regularly he would call in uh kinarama Gori sometimes he would call in a devata like Hanuman or or like Tata um and sometimes he would call in a some other uh saint um uh so he would deliberately do that um I'm at a much more primitive stage so that is something that and he said you know don't expect that you're going to be able to summon things in they will come when it is the right time provided that you keep yourself aligned in the right direction and if you don't you will find that something will come in that you'll have to deal with and um uh it will take probably quite a bit of time to deal with that something dockle something darker not even necessarily darker something that is simply stronger than you are at that moment to deal with may not necessarily be darker might be very good but might be something that is that you're not that you're not uh uh capable of dealing with at that | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-19 | not uh uh capable of dealing with at that point from the episodes we did with rajashi nandisa um I learned that these things is a very high level of practice so the fact that you're saying you've done it means you actually went past a lot of levels of practice but there are so many levels you say it's like um you might one of the most important things to do is not think that you achieve something important whatever you may have achieved there's always something Beyond so the and and there's a giant difference between Simply Having being acting as a host for those things and being able to request them deliberately to enter your body so uh the the day that I'm able to do that successfully will be the day that I will think huh maybe now I have actually achieved something are you comfortable sharing the perspective of what it felt like for the first time but something else inside you well the first time was even before I went to about when I was still a teenager in the U.S and | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-20 | I was still a teenager in the U.S and and at that that time I didn't even know it was happening I I blacked out I wasn't that I blacked out I was not present for a while and I came back to my to me and people said wow I mean you know you were you were talking about this and that and you the other thing and I thought whoa that's really interesting because I don't remember any of that because I was not there you were practicing Tundra and you know no no this was this this was this had nothing to do with anything other than being in a in a particular state where I was open to that where were you physically I was in Tulsa Oklahoma okay and I was a typical teenager and I had you know I was consuming various uh illicit substances and uh I think on that day I just had a lot to drink so the alcohol actually opened up some Channel exactly without having any clue that this was going to happen | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-21 | having any clue that this was going to happen you're carrying something from your past life must be everybody is carrying things from their past lives and it it you know it must be the case that I'm carrying things because otherwise I wouldn't have this alignment with that and with the skulls and with vimal and under and with all that kind of stuff and you know for me Bombay is very much like a smashon because I with vimal Ananda cremated his uh father and his Kaka his CH his uh paternal uncle and I cremated him wow okay um this changes this conversation for me a lot and I mean let me just throw this in just to you know this is not you don't if you're meant for this kind of thing you don't have to go looking for it so back in nov back in November three months ago I think it was like the 11th or 12th I was in the fort in my place in Bombay and I had had a very nice day I had met | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-22 | I had had a very nice day I had met a kid that I had first met at his naming ceremony 45 years earlier when he was this size so I met him again for the next time and we talked about how to get his father to let go of a piece of land that and I knew his father and I you know for several years uh and vimilananda had given the name to this boy so it was great to see him again it was a nice and I was thinking gosh what a nice day it's been 8 15 p.m the doorbell rings I go to the door and it's the kid who's the guard at the front of the building and he says you're a doctor aren't you and I said yeah I bet I haven't been practicing for a while he said well it's not for someone who's sick it's for somebody we need to know whether they're dead or not so uh I put on a mask and all day long I had been smelling something dead and I had | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-23 | long I had been smelling something dead and I had been wondering you know I looked down I looked around there was nothing obviously dead I wonder what could this be I walked up one flight of stairs literally directly above my head and I realized the smell was coming from that and there was there were two policemen uh breaking down the door and we broke down the door there was no electricity in the flat so one policeman and I went in he had a torch and we were talking about I don't know whatever we were talking about in Hindi or Marathi or whatever the kitchen and it's the flat looks exactly like mine so I know where everything is the kitchen door has been wired shut there's all kinds of trash on the floor there's all kinds of trash in in the bathroom area we go into the bedroom that is literally just above literally just above my head the trash is this thick and there is a body that is lying there naked on top of | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-24 | a body that is lying there naked on top of the trash that has obviously been dead for a day and a half or two or something killed um it didn't there wasn't any obvious um um wound or anything um and he was a very he was a very anti-social kind of guy so nobody was looking in on him and so the policeman shifted to English to be more official and he said can this man be taken to be dead I said he can be taken to be dead and I had to sign off on that with my medical registration it's the most you know the one most official act that I have performed as a with my medical license here in India but I mean I didn't I don't have to go to the smashon though I go to banganga regularly since I've cremated people there I love going to the cremation grounds but the cremation I mean you know the dead people come in my direction right above literally above my head so that doesn't happen to everybody | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-25 | above my head so that doesn't happen to everybody have you ever interacted more with dead bodies like as a part of your rituals um not not in any way to try to for any other reason than to move them in the direction of cremating them not to try to do any sadness with them because I wasn't told to I because this is not the sort of thing you want to experiment with unless you really know what you're doing and I am following what vimilananda told me to do because then I know I know that if I do something beyond that I will have trouble what did vimalananda say about um the rituals related to eating the flesh are they very high level rituals eating the flesh off of dead bodies um well it's it's a a high level there should be a good there should be a reason to do it because you have to understand that if you were eating there's there's one thing about eating the Flesh of a dead body and that is just to | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-26 | Flesh of a dead body and that is just to that is just to make you go beyond disgust but you also have to remember that if you're eating the Flesh of that dead body you're taking on some of the karmas of the body just as you eat anything you're you eat a plant you're taking on some of the cardamus of the plant you eat meat you're taking some of the Carters of the animal you drink milk you're taking some of the karmas of the cow or the goat or whatever it is so there should be and and sometimes it you know it's it's sometimes you might and he never told me to do that so I have not done that though I do remember that the one person that I was cremating who was the first person that acted as a guru to me before I met vemo and Nanda he lived in Hyderabad but he happened to die in Bombay the day I arrived in Bombay and so I cremated him and while I was | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-27 | and so I cremated him and while I was cremating him his skull burst open and I got sprayed with his blood so I was not trying to consume his blood or flesh or whatever but it came in my direction anyway so that's always the better way to do things rather than saying now I am a greater Gordy I am going to eat the I'm going to eat the brain of this person you eat the brain of that person you're taking on some of the karmas of that person do will you be able to digest them that's the question but what does it do to you spiritually other than taking on the karmas and getting you past disgust well it's a kind of intoxicant also really intoxicant means what I mean some intoxicants are obvious like um alcohol you drink or you smell ganja you you will very quickly feel a result you eat bong it'll take an hour and a half and then you'll feel the result some intoxicants it will take longer to feel | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-28 | result some intoxicants it will take longer to feel the result I I decided to experiment once with um means arsenic trisulfide um and arsenic it's a very good medicine it's often used in ayurveda when a person is very near death but you need to keep them you alive and and functional for another few days it doesn't always work but sometimes it does so I decided I need to know what it does so I I tried it for gosh I can't remember two weeks or three weeks or something and that is also a kind of Nasha because it makes you feel very strong and after those two or three weeks I started to realize whoa I'm Only Sleeping four hours and I'm doing this and I'm doing that and I said to myself this is too good anything that feels this good there has to be some kind of you know downside downside to it so then I slowly weaned myself off of it without any negative so now I know what how to tell will do and if I | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-29 | know what how to tell will do and if I get to the point where I need how to tell I know what what how to take it and when to take it and so on and there's so many things like that ayurveda is all about knowing Guna Guna means quality attribute characteristic and Guna of both Karma means actions what different actions will do and substances so so if you're you suppose you're eating human flesh you have to understand that that like any kind of flesh is a kind of intoxicant it may not you may not feel that it's an intoxicant but it's affecting you in a particular way any kind of high protein thing is going to affect you in a particular way it will generally speaking have a stimulating effect how stimulating it's going to be is going to depend on how what condition your liver is in so if you have cirrhosis of the liver and you eat even 30 grams of red meat you will go into a coma because that meat releases | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-30 | will go into a coma because that meat releases and it has all kinds of amino acids in them and as it goes through the process of digestion some of those are going to turn into monoamines which are many of the neurotransmitters in the body or monoamines but some of them are false neurotransmitters and those the liver filters out but if you have cirrhosis your liver is not going to filter them out and then they will compete with the other neurotransmitters and you won't be able to maintain your higher Consciousness functions okay that's obvious if you have cirrhosis but suppose your liver is just in it's not you you haven't damaged it to that condition but it's still very sluggish and you have a lot of toxins in your body and your liver is not doing the job that it should be doing and you eat a lot of protein not just meat but also a lot of Dal or a lot of uh paneer or a lot of of whatever it is that's | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-31 | or a lot of of whatever it is that's high in protein that protein is going to create some of these neurotransmitters that won't act in the right way and so your brain will not be thinking clearly and your brain is always trying to predict what's going to come next and if it's not thinking clearly it's not going to predict accurately what's going to come next and then you're going to be moving in the direction that is not the correct direction for you to be moving it what did vimilananda said about his perspective on eating human flesh had you had this conversation with him because this is what the world knows about agoris yes he said that um the useful thing to do to eat human flesh is if you know there is a re if you have if you know you have the Ronaldo bandana with that person that you need to eat that flesh for whatever reason what was the word you just used this is a word he was very fond of means debt d-e-b-t debt so | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-32 | fond of means debt d-e-b-t debt so Runa means I mean it could literally mean a debt like you borrow money from somebody and you pay them back but it also in this context it means a karmic debt and anubandana Bunda means a binding so means a binding of karmic debt between two people and what you're trying to do in this lifetime we hope is not create more binding for yourself but to get rid of some of those bindings to pay off the people you need to pay off to let them pay you off and you would think well uh if I owe that guy a hundred thousand rupees I'll just give him a hundred thousand rupees and that will solve the problem but usually it's not as simple as that you may owe him fifty thousand today he may owe you twenty thousand two weeks from now you may owe him seventy thousand five years from now so it it's it's not that you can necessarily just realize that ah this is somebody I've | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-33 | just realize that ah this is somebody I've got to deal with I'm gonna pay them off immediately you have to you have to try to get a clear perspective on what that relationship is with that person and how best to address it so someone like vemo Ananda had specialized in understanding abundant the rest of us we have to try to get a feeling for it he had a much clearer perspective on it so the body he would consume would be in some way related to him some way related and that's what he because he would say otherwise yes if you're if it suppose you're suppose your Guru says you I'm going to assign you the task of eating some of the Flesh of everyone who comes to this cremation ground for the next one year the guru has told you to do this so whatever the karma is involved the guru has told you to do it so the guru is going to have to manage that Karma because he or she told you to do it | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-34 | because he or she told you to do it that's number one so automatically only the people will come to that smashon in front of you for you to eat them if there is some connection between the two of you because how many people in the world seven and a half billion 8 billion but you're not going to meet 8 billion you're not going to meet 8 million you may not meet 8 000 people in your lifetime you're only going to meet the people that you have some connection with did you ever ask him about the taste um I mean I don't think he ever ate pork but if you talk to people who are in in the past people who were cannibals they used to like in the South Seas they used to describe it as long pig as tasting a lot like pork so I mean I when I was up until I was 20 I used to eat meat all the time so I know what pork tastes like and if you spend any time in a cremation ground it | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-35 | you spend any time in a cremation ground it will smell like barbecue and so it's I mean I have a clear idea of what it tastes like even if I haven't eaten human flesh myself who can't get themselves to actually do that probably okay though that would be if there was someone I mean I I don't want to I don't want to speak theoretically but I imagine if you had a guru and the guru knew that one of his or her disciples was reluctant to do that that would probably be exactly what the guru told them to do because the whole point of Agora is going beyond that okay if it was and if it was somebody who said guruji I have come here to eat human brain guruji would probably say forget the human brain you need to go eat feces you know it's something like the whatever it is that is the thing that you most want to avoid is the thing you have to look at in Agora feces consumption is | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-36 | to look at in Agora feces consumption is a thing in Agora yeah maybe for some at some point for some person at some time have you heard anything about it well he said that the the the point of doing this is to be able to understand that I mean particular consuming your own feces it's it is you it has come out of you is in and and you if if you were serious about not Discerning not saying this is good and this is bad then you need to you need to at least be able to taste it and acknowledge that that is part of that has come out of you it is part of you wow and okay when you meditate or you pray you have some sort of spiritual progress and all these rituals in the world of Agora also lead to some form of spiritual progress because you're still praying you're still meditating you're still reciting Mantra you're still and your focus always should be that it is not you doing it it is um it is the | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-37 | not you doing it it is um it is the deity acting through you there's a couple of questions I have once the obvious one about the health angle here and I know a lot of listeners have that question when you're hearing things about eating feces and eating human flesh there's got to be some health angle for the agoris yes so what does it affect health well it certainly can but that's the whole point of it is not to think that you're a greater gory and to go start doing that because that's you doing that there's a big difference between you doing it and you being in a particular state where something else is doing it and this is not anything and uh it used to be called multiple personality disorder I think it's called dissociative integration disorder or something like that but the point is that there are certain people who who they have more than one personality but in some of these personalities like one personality will be allergic to something literally allergic they'll come out with | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-38 | to something literally allergic they'll come out with hives or some and another personality will not now how can you explain that one way of organizing you react to one substance and another way of organizing you react to something else so I mean that's in just people who are very damaged no doubt but this it's the same process by what if you have a different personality in inhabiting you at a certain point you can consume things that are ordinarily would not be good for you but then you have to make sure that in fact it is that personality that's consuming it and not something else you need to have the elevation yes activated yes which is the deity acting through yes okay the second question I have here is that I read a book agori by someone called mayur kalbagh it was a fictional take on agoris what he kept highlighting was that algories are not scary it's actually very positive interacting with them and the second thing he highlighted was that this spiritually very very very very | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-39 | highlighted was that this spiritually very very very very very very powerful amongst like possibly the most spiritually powerful beings on this planet uh what do you have to say anything about that I would certainly say that anyone who really seriously genuinely follows the path of Agora is going to even if they start off being very harsh they're going to move in that because that's the whole point of Agora the point of Agora is not to is not to remain in a state of being ugra of being terrifying and the point is to digest that to go beyond it to get to a point where there is where there is um Peace where there is samata where there's even-handedness equal mindedness in the Gita it says that Krishna says the same thing that a a person who has really good Equinox equanimity they will look at a saint they will look at a dog and they will look at someone who eats dogs and they will look at them exactly the same they will not say | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-40 | look at them exactly the same they will not say the saint is great the dog is a dog and the Eater of dogs is a horrible person they will say this is all the manifestation of reality the cuttermans are manifesting in front of me I see this I see the saint I see the Eater of dogs I see the dog but ultimately it is all the play of the karmas the play of Maya and so it's the whole point of Agora is not to get stuck in that not to get stuck in eating dogs some people eat dogs but are you you know if you it's one thing to do it your Guru tells you to do it you do it to the point where you become completely equanimous with that then you don't need to do it anymore if you get stuck with oh my god dog is very tasty and I'm going to show everybody that I'm a dog eater then you get stuck in that reality there's no Agora is not about | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-41 | that reality there's no Agora is not about being stuck a goat is about de-sticking yourself from all of your attitudes and your disgust and your and the things you crave and and both Rag and davesha okay uh the question I have here is I'm sure a lot of spiritual Seekers take up the path of Agora for faster spiritual progress and obviously because they've been drawn to it inherently um how long do these people actually take to achieve enlightenment and I'm sure it's different for different people but I'm assuming it would be like a 5 10 maybe 20 year journey of being a nagori but why only 200 years what if it's several lifetimes we don't know wow okay we don't know I mean I I continuously uh go back to um the stories of because after meeting vimilananda and Puna just a couple of weeks later we went to alandi which is where nyaneshwar's samadhi is and we um and we did Puja to it back then | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-42 | we um and we did Puja to it back then you could do Puja through his samadhi now there's too many people and they don't allow you but back then you could say it at the samadhi and it was it was great um and uh there was uh you know naneshwar wrote his commentary on the Gita technically called the bavarta Deepika but everybody calls it the nyaneshwari and he wrote the Amrita Baba which is a very beautiful thing all about reality and he wrote something called the changdev parshafti the 65 verses to Yogi changdiv and changdev was a yogi who was a very tough guy and he he used a cobra as his um you know as a whip and he wrote on a tiger he was a serious character but he discovered early in his life that he would not meet his Guru for one thousand four hundred years so he thought how is this going to work out suppose I die and I get born in some family that's not interested | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-43 | and I get born in some family that's not interested in spirituality I may miss the guru best thing is I will stay alive so he did his yoga every 100 years death would come looking for him he would go into somebody death would not find him in the body that moment would pass he would come back live for another hundred years and when he finally heard about naneshwar and his brother nivratnath who was nanish rasguru and the brothers sopan and the sister he wrote them a letter and yaneshwar wrote him a letter back that changed and changdev came with his with his disciples and they were all saying and he was riding on the tiger and from a distance meaning from a they could see him with Clairvoyance and they saw oh Chung Dev Maharaj is coming to visit us we must go and meet him but so we can show him good atithi satkar show him you know the the guest is we're going to respect him as a guest so they were sitting | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-44 | to respect him as a guest so they were sitting on a wall and because they had the capability of they had all kinds of siddhis they made the wall fly to changdiv and they met him there and they saluted one another and chengdev recognized his Guru who was janeshwar's Sister age 14. so 1400 years over here 14 years over here she initiates him and that takes care of the thing but he had to wait 1400 years there's nothing like time there is if you start thinking about time oh my god I've only got 20 years something is you're gonna cut a corner somewhere and you're gonna something not so great is gonna happen you're gonna look up from your barreling down the highway and you're going to look at something over there and you're going to run into something so used to say do not ever think you're something special do not think about how long it's going to take decide what you're going to do and that applies to anything not just Agora I mean | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-45 | that applies to anything not just Agora I mean people how many people really are going to follow are meant to follow the path of Agora not so many but everybody is meant to follow the path of moving in the direction of connecting to reality and so however long that takes always remember that's your goal you mentioned ganja as something that was used um I'll tell you what all of India's smokes weed now especially younger and everyone smoked weed uh I'll be surprised to find a college that doesn't have some weed consumption in India which is why I always find it tricky to speak about weed on the show because I've been there myself and every time I would find the internet validating something about weed I would be more Inland smoking and so that's not my intention behind asking you this I do not wish to validate the Stoners are listening to this podcast and in saying this what's the purpose of marijuana in Hinduism in uh spiritual growth and in Agora specifically | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-46 | in uh spiritual growth and in Agora specifically well there's I think we should first um first remember that um uh cannabis Grows All Over the country it grows wild for I spend a lot of time in uttarakhan nowadays it grows wild in uttarakhand so it is a plant in ayurveda it's a very useful thing especially for um people who have uh whose digestive capability is Disturbed in some way especially like for example you've had parasites many times so that it it is a very good medicine if it's prepared correctly with other things added to it and consumed in the right amount does it still get you high if you're reading it that way usually not but it's also something that has been traditionally used it's been a traditional offering to Lord Shiva for a long time because he takes intoxicants I remember okay we're talking about probably almost 40 years ago I had gone to ujjain ujjain one of the jotier lingas is there mahakaleshwara and so this was almost 40 | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-47 | there mahakaleshwara and so this was almost 40 years ago back then there was not Joe tirlinga tourism and all the kind of stuff we have nowadays so it was evening there was almost no one in the temple I walked into the temple and there was the pujati and he was he was covering the linga with the thick paste of bhang and he was decorating it with some peanuts some monkey it was very beautiful I sat there and and then after a while sitting there and I was repeating a couple of things he gave me a nice piece of bong that's Prasad off the linga so this is something that is traditional now what would that bong be meant for that word bong comes from the Sanskrit word actually means to break what is it supposed to do break your the connection between your awareness and your ordinary physical existence so the point of taking bong for example is to sit and meditate and allow your awareness to become the awareness of Shiva the difference between | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-48 | to become the awareness of Shiva the difference between bong on the one hand and ganja or chatas on the other hand is that bong takes a longer time to come on and it lasts for a lot longer time ganja they come on much more quickly and they the effect goes away more quickly but it Charis and ganja are meant for the same thing but it's also the case that whether you're taking any form of cannabis the thing is that whatever is in your mind that will continue to stay in your mind so the only reason and if emphasize this repeatedly the only reason to take these is to take them and then to sit down and meditate to sit down and chant to sit down and worship the Fire or the water or whatever element you're worshiping that is the only reason to take them because otherwise they will simply simply get you more connected to whatever kind of thing you are addicted to food or sex whatever it may be absolutely food or sex or sitting around | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-49 | may be absolutely food or sex or sitting around and laughing at uh Stupid YouTube videos or your movies or whatever it may anything this is where a lot of people get it wrong as well you know they they only associate part with being a spiritual thing but then they use it as an excuse to do non-spiritual things when they're high an excuse is still an excuse no matter how good or bad the excuse may be so if you use if you whatever you use it for it's going to encourage you to keep using it for that purpose how how often would sadhus get stoned in order to meditate every day some side do smoke every day is that correct correct is a big word if some sados that may be part of their of their sadhana they may say I every day this is what I need to do I am making ganja my sadhana some people some sadhus may not do that it really it depends on the person but it has to be something that you you know why | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-50 | it has to be something that you you know why you're doing it you're doing it deliberately and sometimes of course vimal Ananda would you know he would also use it as a way of experimenting with you know somebody comes and thinks they can do something and he would let them try something out and see whether they could do it or not I remember once um we used to have a friend who his name we I don't know what his name was we called him China set I think he was originally or part Nepali or something like that so he looked vaguely Asian or Chinese and he was in cyan koliwada and he was regarded as being kind of a Dada of some kind of a tough guy and um uh he was a nice guy overall a couple of times he had brought vimilan and vimalananda a Chillum that had some kind of extra visha extra you know a little extra poison in it sometimes like people into their Chillum they will add datura datura if you | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-51 | their Chillum they will add datura datura if you go to Banaras for example you go to vishwanath you can buy datura seed pods and offered them to Shiva that's very dangerous the Torah for some people even one seed might kill them have you tried datura I have tried the Torah I don't like it it depends I mean some people use the tour but I've I remember asking a shaman in South America about datura he said yeah it's very useful especially for like you know finding things that have been lost but he said she's a very jealous plant meaning that once you start working with her it's very hard to escape from it yeah you read all sorts of stories about datura on the internet where um they say that there's also presence of a black dog in everyone's hallucinations is that true and that's why they call it Devil's weed there I don't know but I do know people who have taken it um you know enough to really have it take over their awareness um | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-52 | to really have it take over their awareness um they say that the hallucinate it it will look exactly like reality except there will be some fuzziness at the edges that's the only way you can tell it's not to happen to you well I just took a small amount uh and I and I didn't take it internally I smoked it and so I could tell I mean it's you can kill yourself with it and people become permanently insane from it so I could tell that it was a very poisonous thing you have to know what poor I mean I feel good about arsenic I didn't feel good about datura you have to know what poisons you feel good with you had done this with them uh I actually did it afterwards okay he never used datura he would he would use other things I mean once he gave me some snake venom that had been prepared in a particular way that was very interesting that had an effect for like 24 hours I can't even describe what it was like | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-53 | 24 hours I can't even describe what it was like but it was just very interesting it was snake reality sneak reality yeah it's like you were seeing the world from the eyes of a snake it was very unusual which is what that's why I say I can't I mean it's hard to you can if if you could get into the body of a reptile and and see through the eyes of the reptile it's like you're you're you're you're you're seeing reptiles are not emotional things reptiles are they're just very basic reality connected to this is what I'm going to do there's no there's no nothing about emotion it's just very matter-of-fact very much like an aghori very much like anagori so yeah I mean so anyway there was this China set and he had already he had brought a cup a couple of times not just once a couple of times he had brought a Chillum to Vemma Ananda that had some other kind of poison in it I don't know what | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-54 | kind of poison in it I don't know what it was but uh Nanda smoke the Chillum and Sheena said got the effects of the poison so I would have thought that once would have been enough to convince him but it he did that twice after that he realized that that was not a good idea so he would just bring you know standard Jettas with him so I remember um I think probably because it is uh my Habit to self-importance is a problem that I've had my entire life so I was probably thinking that you know yes I can I know what to I know how to handle this chutta so which this day whichever it was uh we were gonna drop China said back in cyan Coley water and this was of course you know 40 years ago and there were no there was not the Eastern Freeway and there was not so so uh there was the Chillum and we all smoked it and then vimal and Nanda said okay and we went down to the car to his car and | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-55 | we went down to the car to his car and then he handed me the keys and said now you drive so now I've just smoked this charm with all this cheddes in it and now I and I was driving in Bombay anyway but now it's a bigger challenge to drive and to you know both he and Sheena said are expecting that I'm not gonna crawl down Muhammad Ali road but then I'm gonna drive like I know what I'm doing so now I have the pressure of them both paying attention to me and the pressure of the chutes which is and so I mean it was uh it was an educational experience and a good reminder not to thank too much of my capabilities um and it was a good lesson and thank God I mean thank God Vermont and under was along with me but you know I got there and everything was fine and Gina said was duly impressed and so that that worked well I'm still stuck on the snake venom so gotta understand a little bit more | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-56 | snake venom so gotta understand a little bit more about it because um well vimo and Adam I mean he used to and I know there were people who used to do this but I never met anyone who did it except him and he never volunteered to show me how to do it and I'm not willing to do it otherwise he used to get a cobra milk out most of the Venom and then let the cobras strike him on the tongue and so most of the effect of the Venom would go directly into the brain obviously that's a really dangerous thing to do but that's something he did because he wanted to he wanted to know the effect he he made it a point to try things out just to the point where he knew the if what the effect was and then he said if I do it anymore there's too much danger that I'm going to become habituated to it then he would drop it and move on to the next thing but he was always trying new things Whenever there | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-57 | thing but he was always trying new things Whenever there were new things to be tried that's a part of being an aghori for him that wasn't a part of being a negorty and I believe that is very much a part of being anagori because it's things that things that come to you uh you need to know what they are you need to know I mean as he put it it's it's the law of the Jungle you either it either kills you or you kill it every time I used to his favorite intoxicant was scotch and when he would drink Scotch he would become more and more Sharp and more and his what he would talk would become more and more sophisticated and abstruse the reason I'm hesitant about having this free-flowing conversation with you is there's a lot of people who watch this and think that drinking squash equals spiritual growth and one of the first things that happened after um agoro was first published um almost 40 years ago in the U.S is somebody sent | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-58 | 40 years ago in the U.S is somebody sent a letter to the publisher back then we had to use snail mail and the letter said please send the mantra for controlling alcohol do not do this unless you have someone guiding you and that was very much his point I believe in tundra of any form when you're using intoxicants there's a huge ritual that happens upon those intoxicants before you consume them yes okay yes which may have an effect on your body it may have an effect on the indoor and that's why I think I said earlier but if not I'm saying right now do not go out and try this stuff if you're meant to do it and you have the intention someone will come to you maybe in this lifetime and maybe not and someone will tell you the right the right things to do and that may not be what you imagine you may be thinking ah I will start drinking scotch and the guru will come to you and say under no circumstances drink alcohol ever | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-59 | you and say under no circumstances drink alcohol ever and then what then your idea will no longer you you will either have to think oh my God but I know that I could achieve this without but number one is you need a mentor you need a guide you will get lost otherwise many people have gotten lost many people are getting lost nowadays for example people are taking Ayahuasca and so many people think they have become shamans and they can distribute Ayahuasca and so many people think that they can take Ayahuasca and they know what they're doing but that doesn't mean they know what they're doing this applies to anything that will disconnect you from your current present time reality only take it if you have a guide and it has to be a legit not just somebody who thinks they're a god somebody who is a real how will you know if they're a real God well you need to be able to find that out how will you find that out that's a good question that's something there is | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-60 | out that's a good question that's something there is there is no one uh pariksha no one test you can use to figure out whether someone is legitimate you have to you have to be able to or is vimal and under used to say suppose you want to know whether some some Swami or some sadhu or some Yogi is legitimate it's up to you to be able to have the perception of them don't expect that they are going to you know because anyone will say I have achieved this whether or not they've achieved that you don't know and possibly they don't know but he used to say that you know any fool can tell the difference between the smell of The Gutter and the smell of but just because you can know what is the difference between Badu and kushboo between something that smells that is a stench and something that is a fragrance that's all that means after you have learned a little bit you'll be able to tell whether that fragrance is Rose or Jasmine or a | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-61 | whether that fragrance is Rose or Jasmine or a good or whatever it may be okay but even then if you're just because you know it's rose that doesn't mean you will know whether it's the highest quality of Rose or whether it's Rose plus rose geranium or something else you have to have enough experience to know what that person is about before you personally can conclude that what they're saying is is accurate or not um we had an expert on zoroastianism uh on the show and he spoke about how even today in Parsi fire temples they consume homeless which is actually somras and it's derived from dry to eggs that you find in Northern Pakistan and Afghanistan was sumras a part of what you consumed in Agora foreign and and the ancient avastad the ancient Iranian uh language is called Homa instead of summer because they use H instead of PES I follow what vimalananda said and what vimalananda said was that the original Soma was something that could only be seen by very | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-62 | Soma was something that could only be seen by very very Advanced people and that means it was invisible to you and me people like you and me we could use something that would have possibly a similar effect on us but only if we knew how to prepare it and and what month it is to use and what was the context to use it in and so the the sticks they're talking about most most likely they're they're talking about um either ephedra or something Sarco stemi I think sometimes they use for that um and some people believe that that was in fact summer the milananda believed something else and he said that the different people will find that different substances prepared in different ways will have an effect of Soma on them and what's the if the effect of Soma is that your awareness should go into the astral world and you should be able to connect to the devatad that you're trying to connect to so that's why he drank Scotch because that allowed him to go into the astral world | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-63 | because that allowed him to go into the astral world but that is not going to cause everybody to be able to do that in fact only a small tiny number of people will be able to do that otherwise most people will just get drunk and when I first went to Banaras to the kinaram agori place that's what I saw there were a couple of skulls a moth eaten tiger skin and three or four people who claim they were agoris lying down dead drunk but that's not the point the point is not to become drunk and that's what vimalananda would say when he drank if you're going to drink you have to know whether you're drinking it and you're controlling the Shakti because if you're not controlling it it's going to drink you and you're going to end up pretending that you've got somewhere and you'll just be an alcoholic did you interact with other than women um very few for example what was the experience like what did they tell you are they hyper intuitive | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-64 | like what did they tell you are they hyper intuitive because that's what books tell me uh a a good sadhu a a good spiritual person should be hyper-intuitive and um and yes that has been my experience that that they are extremely intuitive and also they're not trying to show off they're not trying to demonstrate how great they are they're simply they are doing their own sadhana and you have come to them for whatever reason they would you know they're hoping that you know why they came because a lot of people what do they do they come to they come to any Swami or sadhu much less nagori they're not looking for actual knowledge they're not actually looking for a a sadhana a practice to perform they're looking for to be entertained in some way so that gets tedious after a while and after a while and and of course after a while a lot of people who really have done serious Agora asadanas they will stop doing that and and I mean the the person who who was most | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-65 | and I mean the the person who who was most impressive for me in this regard was vimalanandas he used to call him his Junior Guru Maharaj who um I met many times and uh who left his body in nineteen uh sorry uh yeah 1993 and his samadhi is at simhachalam which is near vishakapatnam in um Andhra and Guru Maharaj had done all kinds of sadhanas in the past but he had given them all up and was just doing Gayatri sadhna at the time that I knew him he he is I don't know he's the only person that I have ever run across and there could well be others but he's the only person I've ever run across who had a certificate from the archaeological Survey of India and it said this is to certify that was found it did not say in samadhi but it meant in samadhi was found during an excavation in Corda Road taluka of Puri District of Orissa state in the year I think it was | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-66 | of Orissa state in the year I think it was 1905 might have been 1904. you'd met him I met him many times I stayed with him he would only allow people to stay with him three days at a time um foster daughter and I would go there sometimes I'd go on my own my friend Dr Fred Smith met him more than once so he had been in samadhi in this Temple that collapsed like in the year 1701 or something like that really and he had been in samadhi all this time and they were Excavating the temple and then they saw oh my God here's this sadhu who is but he's in samadhi we can't bring him down so back at that time we're talking about 1904 1905. they had special people in pootie so and Puri is a very interesting place it's special people who knew how to bring people down from samadhi so they brought him down out of samadhi and then you know he had been in in some ivy for at least 200 | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-67 | had been in in some ivy for at least 200 years and then there he was he suddenly was back in his body again did you ask him about those times he would I mean I did we did but he would never he would just say yeah you know I remember how things were in London 400 years ago but you could never tell you could only tell he was serious when you knew he was being serious apparently he had lived on air only after he came out of somebody Heir only for like 20 years and he was living in a tree then he started Living on a rock and was taking one teaspoon of water at a time as long as I knew him and that was 10 years I met him first in 83 and then he left his body in 93 or might have been 82 maybe 11 years and I visit him at least once a year sometimes twice at that time he was drinking this much milk a day and he was drinking this much thumbs up a day and he was not eating solid food | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-68 | up a day and he was not eating solid food except tobacco and I don't mean he was chewing it up and spitting it out I mean he would get two big black leaves of guntur tobacco and he would tear them into strips and chew them up and swallow them so one day I was thinking oh my God how is he doing this and he made it a point to focus to monitor everybody's thinking all times so I just had that thought and suddenly he said what's the use of eating you wear out your teeth and he had two rows of teeth I saw this many times the front row was all worn down the back row was all nice and there was a rooftop behind us yeah yeah I saw this many times in his I mean it was just I mean there it was you only only had to open his mouth and you could see it and so he said you wear down your teeth and obviously you'd done that before maybe you get some disease maybe the | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-69 | done that before maybe you get some disease maybe the food is no good and then you wear out your digestive organs it's better to find something really poisonous and tobacco is poisonous you can kill yourself with tobacco get something really poisonous eat it do internal Alchemy and then you have no problems internal Alchemy internal Alchemy using yoga using whatever meant he never specified what it was it was always in you know he would say it and if you asked what does that mean and he would say something like you know uh if you don't have any faith don't ask or you know go away I was just thinking that if I was a western podcast I would have cross-questioned you as a skeptic asked you how do you know if he was truly alive but just come to realize in India you never know what you're gonna find no not at all how do you explain this to your Western friends all these things well I normally I don't bring it up because people are not normally gonna it | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-70 | bring it up because people are not normally gonna it you know it's only the people who have been exposed to enough of alternate realities India South America Africa wherever it might be then they will understand there might be an ALT but I mean literally for 10 years whenever we were together he would just be eating tobacco what were the things he was serious about you said that he would only be serious when he spoke about some things that you would know when he's being serious yes and and it was not you know often he would just be talking about some foolish thing like oh you all you in in the in the in America you get your food from uh factories I said yes we it's all put you know it goes into the supermarket um oh and you drink brandy yeah no doubt we do so he would talk about this kind of stuff but occasionally something would you know cause him to pay attention and then he would he would let some let loose something that was meaningful like for | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-71 | some let loose something that was meaningful like for example I I didn't know what the context was but one day he was just looking at he was looking at me I think or maybe at vimilananda's foster daughter and he said do you think that if my destiny was good that you would be able to meet me foreign so his point was that you know the only reason he was there was but otherwise he would have been it's still in samadhi wandering around somewhere else so he had been dragged down out of somebody and now he was stuck here and that's why he was meeting people he came to Bombay more than at least once I think twice but mostly he stayed at so much on him do you still get dreams of him or deities um yeah uh um of him dreams not so much but sometimes it'll be obvious I mean sometimes it will just be obvious that his presence is there or Guru Maharaj less Guru Maharaj because he has more things going on but vimo | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-72 | because he has more things going on but vimo Ananda yeah more it's just yeah uh I think I've not even been able to encapsulate one percent of what your experiences are or what's even in the book Agoda because I've read certain aspects of it and it's very deep in fact I think you've mentioned Emperor Akbar in that book uh would you like to talk about it in this episode because that's something I found extremely mind-mending well vimal inanda was very interested in history and he was very interested in the emperor Akbar because he was convinced that Akbar was The Reincarnation of prithviraj Chauhan and that prithviraj Chauhan Who had who had been meant to be the Emperor of India was unable to do so because of some pre-existing karmas and then became the emperor afterwards but in in a different Sharia in a different body and so there was a definite Affinity that he had with Akbar and he often did hazri meaning he often allowed or he | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-73 | often did hazri meaning he often allowed or he invited Akbar to into his body and then he would speak um he would allow Akbar to speak through his body you witnessed this many times yes many times and um of course on the one hand it's impossible to know whether uh because Akbar lived 400 years ago it's hard to know whether it was actually Akbar or some but having having had other experiences of vimal and under in other contexts and having this you know he he did hazri avash of many different things and and each of those personalities was was strikingly different and and in the case of each of those personalities was very consistent you you know if this was being put on it would be much more difficult to be so consistent but this was extremely consistent always the same kind of not just what he said and so on but uh at a more subtle level the quality that one would sense of that presence it's sort of like you know being able to sense a qualities of Rosetta | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-74 | you know being able to sense a qualities of Rosetta or whatever kind of out there so qualities of personalities as they come in and that personality definitely was always consistent and always um suggested that in fact it what that personality was the personality of Akbar don't you think that maybe Emperor akbar's Spirit would have reincarnated or something else did it um and vermontanda said it's it's certain that by this point Akbar has had more than one birth thereafter um but this can happen even without the current version of Akbar knowing what's going on because it's happening from a Personnel it's this is not easy to talk about in human speech because it's not something that is that people describe characteristically in human speech but it's a similar kind of thing on a very gross level of these people who have different person that multiple personality disorder and different personalities cause different things to happen in their bodies so and this is why vimo Ananda was so emphatic about regularly doing pit through | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-75 | was so emphatic about regularly doing pit through tarapuna which means worship of the ancestors because he said everybody is being possessed by things all the time they're just not aware of it we get possessed by uh viruses we get possessed by emotions we get possessed by intoxicants we get possessed by uh ideas communism capitalism socialism whatever kind of ism get possessed by religions we get possessed by but Mo especially we get possessed by our ancestors and it's easy for them to possess us because we have their genes and chromosomes so they know how to sneak in and most of them died having some cravings and there they are very strongly encouraging those cravings so the fact is that wherever Akbar who knows how many um incarnations he's had from since 400 500 years ago but they're still there is still some connection to that previous personality so someone like vimo Ananda who can connect to that previous personality can allow that personality to work through him and that will | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-76 | allow that personality to work through him and that will be good if it if he is doing it in a good way which he always did that will be good for vimalananda and that will be good for the personality Akbar and that will be good for whatever personality the personality Akbar currently is what did he try to interact with Emperor Akbar about did he ask him questions um he would he didn't ever he was allowing Akbar to be present in him and Akbar would the only people that would be present when any of these hazardis would happen would be people who had some kind of bandana some kind of karmic connection and so Akbar would either allow people to ask him questions or he would say you have come today because of this and the person would say yes I've come because of this and then then then they would discuss that whatever whatever that might the implications of whatever that might be do you have any inputs from what emperor Akbar used to say about the times that he found | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-77 | Akbar used to say about the times that he found himself in in that body which is like 80s or 90s well I mean he used to he used to occasionally make jokes like um you know he used to ride around an elephant so he would you know one joke he made once was you know what kind of age have we are we in that uh in my times we used to have the wahan the vehicle let go of its liquid means the elephant would pee before you started off now we have to put liquid into the into the wine into the vehicle before it will go anywhere um what was it like for you seeing all those interactions you could tell it's from a different time like well and and it was also you know um I had also had experience because you know he was trying vimal and under was trying to expose me to all kinds of things so you know he would expose me to people that he knew who were possessed and then so you could you could tell I mean with | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |
764aabd6fe00-78 | then so you could you could tell I mean with certain types of possession you can tell just from their eyes when The Possession comes on to them or not in fact in the household where he was living there were two people living in the household who would get possessed occasionally so it was kind of like living in a in a cremation ground because there were these spirits that would periodically take over these two people so I mean just by virtue of that happening there was already you know some some some awareness that that people could be taken over by things all the time so then when it came to uh it was very obvious the difference between you know that kind of possession and the possession of a deity it was a little less obvious with the you know being when he was possessed by kinara magori or by Shan Shah akbud because they had been human deities you know many of them have never been human some have been but most of them in especially the the the more advanced | Q3U_PsLIZ7U |