Datasets:

A-Geese

/

ontario-mpps-transcript

like 0

Follow

A++Geese 3

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "What happened to the Minister of the Environment (Mr. W. Newman)? Oh, there he goes.", "I would like to ask the Minister of Industry and Tourism to repeat his rather convoluted explanation as to why he, through his ministry, has made payments of $1,250,000 to Dalton Camp Associates without a contract or a written agreement. Does the minister not feel that it is his personal responsibility to see that these moneys are spent in a more orderly way, if at all? Does he not further see the sensitivity in this matter, since a number of advertising agencies seem to be getting bigger and bigger accounts with various government ministries as we get closer to the election, and the government embarks on these self-aggrandizement programmes at the public expense?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. C. Bennett (Minister of Industry and Tourism)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the remark made by the Leader of the Opposition is not actually correct. First of all, the sum of $1.25 million was not paid to the Camp agency. That was our entire account for advertising in press, radio and TV for the ministry for the year that the auditor was reporting for. Camp Associates, sir, works on a commitment to the government through the Ministry of Industry and Tourism. When the auditor brought it to our attention that there should be an agreement, the ministry people set to work to draft an agreement. After many months of discussion within the ministry and with the auditor’s people they were not sure as to why exactly they were trying to propose or arrange an agreement, which is not the customary way of dealing with advertising agencies anywhere in this province.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "The customary way is to do it on a friendly and political basis." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Well, I suppose if it is on a friendly and political basis we’d likely gain that line of knowledge from the Liberal Party in Ottawa -- and so, Mr. Speaker --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)", "text": [ "It has worked for 30 years." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "I am reporting exactly as the situation happens to be with advertising agencies in this province --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)", "text": [ "Both the Conservatives and Liberals do it the same way; we recognize that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "We know who are the ripoff artists." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "-- and let me remind the NDP that it is on the same basis as the NDP is treating its advertising agency in Manitoba; the agency that looked after the party in power in Manitoba during the last provincial election in that province." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)", "text": [ "We will check that one, too.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. A. Stewart (Minister of Agriculture and Food)", "text": [ "Righteous indignation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Let’s get back to Ontario now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, order.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, we have with our agents -- and I can report that for the Ministry of Industry and Tourism we have three agencies that work on our behalf -- commitments which have a 30-day cancellation clause. In the commitment it very clearly states exactly what we expect of that agent for us as the client." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Let’s table that." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "We place the advertisement in the areas that we believe it should be placed for the greatest efficiency and promotion for the Province of Ontario. Their commissions --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "And for the Conservative Party." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "If it happens to advance the cause of the government of the Province of Ontario, all well and good. But first and foremost we are advancing the position of the Province of Ontario, which I believe includes the opposition members as well." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Does he mean the Conservative Party?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Can we share the decisions on how the minister handles that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "We have at the moment the Camp agency, which looks after the tourism account, and in our opinion it is doing a very effective and efficient job. The travel agency for Canada, through the Liberal Party, admits that our advertising is among the best on this continent." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "An absolute disgrace.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "With that, sir, it is obvious that this government has employed the best agency possible to advance the cause of tourism in this province." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary: Does the minister then reject the criticism from the Provincial Auditor? In fact, is he saying that what he is doing is better than what the Provincial Auditor is suggesting and saying specifically should be done?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)", "text": [ "That’s right." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, since the time that we discussed the --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "The Chairman of the Management Board says “right.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Get that on the record." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Let me assure the Leader of the Opposition, since the day that --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Great management over there." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Yes, we have good management and we have followed the advice of the auditor at this point in time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Oh come on --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "It is already too much." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The man the minister is dealing with is also the chairman of the commission on the Legislature." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, it would be well if the leader of the NDP would get his facts straight for a change, for the simple reason that Mr. Camp is not associated with the firm." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)", "text": [ "It is his brother-in-law." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "I couldn’t care less who he is. The fact is that --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Just tell us the minister will put it in hand." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "The statement was made that Mr. Camp was leading the agency." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "That agency has such a catchy name -- Dalton Camp Associates." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Well, it appears that the Liberal Party was willing to accept some of his recommendations on changes in the Legislature, so I would think that his advice must be good here as well as in the advertising field." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Sort this out then.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "May I say that the leader of the Liberal Party asked if we were willing to accept the auditor’s advice. We are; we have prepared an agreement." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Oh, the minister and the Chairman of the Management Board don’t agree on that." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "May I advise the Leader of the Opposition that since that time we have had further discussions with the auditor general for the province and we are not sure that there is anything to be gained by signing an agreement. I would advise the House of this, that we have an agreement which has been signed by the Camp agency. It has not been signed by the ministry at this point because there seems to be some difference of opinion with the auditor as to why we should have the agreement when the commitment is covering the item fully and adequately at this time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Because the Chairman of the Management Board was opposed to it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: No. 1, will the minister table those commitments in the House? No. 2, will he explain what he means by the customary relationship? And No. 3, can he tell us whether or not the Management Board will accept the auditor’s recommendations since the Chairman of the Management Board has already rejected them this morning in the House?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "That’s not true." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "The Chairman of the Management Board had better get up and set that straight." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Well, as far as the Management Board’s position is concerned I’ll allow the Chairman of the Management Board to report on that question for the member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "That’s nice of the minister.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "As for the commitments, sir, we are prepared to file them. They are an order from our ministry to the agency as to where we wish our advertising placed. We have no reasons not to indicate very clearly to this House and the people of Ontario where we spend the money in their interests to promote tourism." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "And the government’s own." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Downsview." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, by way of supplementary, could the minister tell us how many dollars he expects to spend with the Camp agency, without the agreement, during the months of March, April, May and June of 1974? Has he projected his thinking that far ahead or is he just writing a blank cheque? How many dollars has he allocated and what plans does he have?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Just whatever is good for the Tory party." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Let me say, Mr. Speaker, while the Leader of the Opposition seems to think that it is all for the advancement of the Tory party --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Isn’t it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "-- it has provided excellent government for this province over the last 30 years. Obviously we have placed the ads in the right spots to convince people we are doing a job on their behalf and in their interests." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "It is time for the campaign." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "It won’t save the government anyway, but that’s not the point of the question." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "As to answering the question, we do have spelled out very clearly in our commitments to the agency exactly the number of dollars that will be spent and in the places that they will be spent, whether it relates to television, radio or newspaper advertising." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "How about telling the House about it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Did the minister say he would table it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "If Liberal members had been listening to the leader of the NDP --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Did the minister say he would table it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "I believe, Mr. Speaker, if a few of the members of the Liberal Party would sit and listen for a moment to the questions that are asked by other parties in this House, they might also be able to gain some knowledge of the answers that are given.", "I indicated to the leader of the NDP that I was prepared to table in this House the commitments that we have with our agency in placing advertising on a national or international basis, and that would cover the very question that the member from the Liberal Party has asked." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "When is the minister going to table it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "When is he going to table it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "In due course.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Apart from self-enhancement or whatever else, I don’t think it’s comic in terms of the commission on the Legislature. Does the minister not think he owes it to Dalton Camp Associates as well as to the Legislature to table those commitments on Monday or Tuesday of next week to indicate to us when in time those commitments were undertaken and whether or not he is going to follow the specific recommendation of the auditor to have a negotiated agreement or contract?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I think I have already covered the position in the contract. We have an agreement already drafted and signed by the Camp agency, but because there appears to be some difference of opinion as to what the need of the agreement is at this time it has not been fully signed by the ministry." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Let us see it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Well, if the ministry doesn’t need it, why have it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, by way of supplementary, if the minister doesn’t know the need, if there is confusion, how can he possibly say that he has a plan for the ongoing months?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well, he can say many things." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am not sure that the relationship of the agreement has anything to do with the placing of advertising, to be very honest with you." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I wouldn’t have thought so, either." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "I already indicated to this House that in the opinion of the auditors and those people within the ministry, the commitment that we have with the agency is basically the same thing, a direct commitment as to what we are going to spend in advertising and in what months and in what areas of promotion we are going to use it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Why doesn’t the minister tell the House about it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Leader of the Opposition? The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "We will allow Camp Associates to tender on our contract." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West with a question." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I have a question, Mr. Speaker, of the Minister of the Environment because he has been so anxious to jump in these last few days. May I ask him whether he has rejected the request from Disposal Services Ltd. for what would amount to a hearing under section 35 of the Environmental Protection Act, which would allow the bylaw to be waived so that Disposal Services could continue to establish large landfill sites in Vaughan township?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman (Minister of the Environment)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, there will be an Environmental Hearing Board meeting next week on these matters, on the 20-acre site and the bylaw." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "On the 20-acre site and on the big proposed site -- the 900-acre site -- as well?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "No, just on this portion of it. We are still waiting for engineering reports on the total overall picture." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A supplementary: I wonder if the minister could tell us the status of that other great garbage commitment that his Environmental Hearing Board has made and that is in Hope township. Is he prepared to say what the government policy is on going forward with that or cancelling it? Hopefully it will cancel it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "As you know, the environmental hearing board has made its report --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "They made a recommendation." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "They made a recommendation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "That the CPR be granted the right." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "Right. And we are now doing the necessary testing in that area. There are still more meetings to be held with the CPR officials and the municipal officials." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A supplementary: Has the minister visited the site?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "No, I haven’t visited that site. I have visited many garbage sites, though, in the province." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Is he going to visit this one?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "I will be visiting a lot of them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "He has been to a lot of Tory rallies in the past." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Supplementary to the minister, Mr. Speaker: Would the minister consider suspending the intended plans for the Hope township site, for the Pickering township site and for the Vaughan township site, both in the transportation of public and private garbage? And would he take a look at the possibilities of alternatives for Metropolitan Toronto, with assistance from the public treasury, in the three- or four-year interim period before major recycling and reclamation can be undertaken, to locate that garbage in an area of the province, transported by rail if necessary, which would not cause such total disruption in those surrounding communities immediately adjacent to Metro? He has that authority under the Environmental Protection Act." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "The total matter of waste disposal, of course, I’m very much concerned about and live with daily, but I’m not prepared at this point in time to withdraw all these applications, no. But we are certainly looking.", "As you know, we have the programme Watts from Waste. We are also working on the engineering for a reclamation plant. We are looking for other means. Certainly in the long-range view we want to do away with the sites, but even with all those processes there still will be some waste that will have to be dealt with in the future." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. R. Good (Waterloo North)", "text": [ "A supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Waterloo North." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "Would the minister assure the Legislature that he will give only enough permits to handle the Metropolitan landfill problem until such time as there is a speed-up in the reclamation and recycling process within Metro -- which is five years late, incidentally, Mr. Speaker -- so that there won’t be permits given, which could carry on for 20 years more, for burying our garbage in the ground, which is what they are wanting to do?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "We are quite anxious in this ministry to get away from long-term landfill sites." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "When did it change its policy? Overnight? Because that was not the previous policy." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "No, I didn’t say it was --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "New minister, new policy, that’s all." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "That’s great." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "There are many sites -- and I realize what the member is trying to say, that we want to look at the other programmes we have under way to try to find other ways of dealing with this matter." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. M. Deacon (York Centre)", "text": [ "A supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "The minister didn’t answer my question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "In view of the fact that there are at least a score of well-proven recycling installations now in operation in Europe and in North America, could the minister not select one of these at least and get several of them immediately under construction, because it takes two years at the most to get proven plans into construction and in operation if they are proven processes? Would the minister undertake to do that and keep the limit on any landfill to three years, other than the refuse left over after recycling?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "I must be quite honest. I am not that familiar with all the European situations at this point in time. As I said, we have engineering plans under way for reclamation plants now and --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "This is terrible." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "At this point in time I am not prepared to say that we can lock into a three-year situation until we have these plans well along." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman (Windsor-Walkerville)", "text": [ "Why doesn’t the minister take my bill --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, by way of a supplementary question, has the hon. Minister of Industry and Tourism reported to the hon. Minister of the Environment about the discussions which he has been having with a firm from Italy on this question of garbage disposal and the mechanical equipment which, I understand, was quite acceptable to the Ministry of Industry and Tourism?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "As a matter of fact I have been rather busy since I started this job. I haven’t really had a chance to talk to the Ministry of Industry and Tourism, though I plan to be meeting with them -- I believe it’s on Monday of this coming week." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The minister hasn’t talked to him yet?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A question, Mr. Speaker -- I have been looking for the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations. I can’t find him, but I see a facsimile over there so perhaps I could direct the question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "Frankie Laine’s over there." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "What is the minister doing about his continued appraisal of supermarkets and retailers in his effort to watch the rise of food prices? Has he referred any other discrepancies or injustices that he thinks may have occurred to the federal food prices commission, and what has happened to that legislation which was hinted at in the last session, but not noted in this Throne Speech, which might give the consumers some protection from increasing food prices other than in the area of warranties and franchises, etc.?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. T. Clement (Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, firstly I would like to thank the leader of the New Democratic Party for recognizing that I was here. I have been here two or three days and I am surprised he didn’t see me." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "No, he hasn’t been here; not in his seat he hasn’t." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "I also welcome the comments referring to my Christmas present and I have a new shirt on today, too. I hope the fact that it’s a little on the red side has nothing to do with my new motif.", "In any event, sir, referring to the question dealing with the food prices, yes, we are continuing to monitor them. We are also drafting the Business Practices Act to which I have made reference in the past. I hope to be able to introduce that legislation in this session of the House.", "I have also had discussions with my counterpart in Ottawa, the Hon. Mr. Gray, insofar as food price increases are concerned. As the hon. leader knows, it is not only restricted to this province; the problem seems to exist, in fact, across the country and I anticipate that legislation will emanate from the federal people dealing with this particular matter.", "I am sure the hon. leader is aware that a substantial number of prosecutions, I am advised, have already been initiated by the federal people as a result of the Prices Review Board’s investigations into food prices, which have been carried on over the past few months. Insofar as our proposing or undertaking some form of price control is concerned, I see that just cannot be effected and I would not, accordingly, make any such undertaking to the members of this House." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A supplementary: Can the minister make public the monitoring of food price increases that he has in his ministry to give us a sense of where precisely it is occurring and who is responsible for it? Second, has he called the major supermarket chains into his office to justify to him or explain to him how they legitimize the return on investment which they have made over the last 18 months to two years, and to take a look at their balance sheets?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, no, I have not called the presidents of the supermarkets into my office to make that inquiry. We have taken a careful look at those publicly listed companies out of a matter of curiosity on our part. It is interesting, Mr. Speaker, in connection with one major supermarket that while at first blush it did have a particularly lucrative year in 1973, it appears that a substantial portion of earnings in that particular year for that particular company emanated from the sale of capital assets by way of land, and it appears a capital gain of some substance was realized.", "We have no jurisdiction to invite them in. I am sure that if we did, they would come in and discuss it.", "Insofar as the food monitoring is concerned, I propose to make those figures available to the public, again in the next week or two. I should point out to the House, Mr. Speaker, and to the hon. leader of the New Democratic Party, they are not particularly persuasive one way or the other in that the prices will fluctuate ever so slightly from week to week. There are no significant trends or leadership provided by any one company in any one particular period of time and the difference in terms of dollars and cents is rather minimal." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The minister is being manipulated and ripped off and he is enjoying it. He likes watching this system work." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker: May I ask the minister what co-ordination, if any, there is between this work in his ministry and the work within the Ministry of Agriculture and Food where it monitors a food basket? Why is it that both this ministry and the Ministry of Agriculture, in reference to the food basket monitoring, operate so secretly? Why isn’t this information out to the public so that it may be of some value?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, as I have indicated, I will make that available. There is nothing secretive about it but I don’t think the hon. member for York South will really be turned on if he notices that at supermarket X our food basket cost $19.26 and at its competitor it was $19.31 for the week. I don’t think that will do anything for him." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Let the minister ask himself what that means." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "There’s nothing secretive about it. We have worked closely with the Ministry of Agriculture, particularly the food council which also does the monitoring. We are trying to ascertain at all times, in our role, whether any legislation of this province is being breached by any of the supermarkets. The member and I can sit here and talk all day about the spiralling costs and that sort of thing, but I ask him exactly under what legislation we would move?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Unless we see that existing legislation is being breached there is nothing we can do at the provincial level.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "We have had discussions with the Food Prices Review Board people on noticing practices that we don’t think are in the best interests of consumers; and they have shared that concern and in fact have initiated certain prosecutions under the Combines Investigation Act." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The prices are totally provincial." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Is the minister familiar with research paper No. 14, prepared for the farm income committee by William Janssen et al, in which he, Janssen, documents that this manipulation of prices by supermarkets is part of their regular game? It is part of the pattern of operation; and if they are fooling the minister and he can’t do anything about it, doesn’t that underline the need for legislation that will catch these procedures?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "An excess profits tax; the right to roll back prices." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "I have not seen it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "I have one more supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "The minister ought to read that report; it is a very good document." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "He will be able to implement that in Manitoba because he is now the deputy." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "He is indeed." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "But he hasn’t done a thing about it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "He has, you bet he has." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "He hasn’t done a thing about it; not a thing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "They know about their food basket; there are weekly announcements about the discrepancies between what farmers get and consumer prices.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Thank you. Mr. Speaker, is the minister satisfied there is in fact no collusion between the supermarkets in order to make sure that the average food basket does maintain a level which they consider to be reasonable but I consider to be exorbitant?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Sure there is collusion; there is collusion." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "I can’t speak to any such discussion as it exists, in reality or as alleged, between the supermarkets. I point out to the hon. member that under the Combines Investigation Act if that type of practice persists there might well be prosecution emanating from that level." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well then, the minister should examine it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "So I’m not privy to any discussions between the heads of supermarkets, no." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "One final question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon member for Kitchener. There have been three supplementaries. Was it a supplementary?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "No, it wasn’t." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I’m sorry. Then the hon. member for Wentworth may ask a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "One final supplementary question: Is the minister aware of the statement by certain supermarkets that they do indeed check their competitors’ prices before establishing a price on their own shelves for similar products?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, yes I’m aware of that statement having been made." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West. Does he have a further question?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "No, I don’t think so." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "No. The hon. member for Kitchener." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "I have a question, Mr. Speaker, of the Chairman of the Management Board of Cabinet. As it would appear that in 1971-1972, Dr. Douglas Wright received some $39,863 as chairman of the Committee on University Affairs, can the Chairman look into section 33 of the Public Service Act and advise us if the additional payments of $34,980 per diem for work on the Commission on Post-Secondary Education, and $23,935 in expense moneys received as well by Dr. Wright, do not perhaps come into conflict with the requirement for a public servant not to engage in any work or business undertaking other than that for which he is paid as a public servant?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I will certainly have a look at the question the hon. member raises. I’m satisfied at the moment that it met criteria, but I’ll have it examined and reply." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Perhaps the minister on the same point could inquire as to benefits likely to have been received for consulting work done on the structural steel contract at Ontario Place." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A supplementary, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "All right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Who was the commissioner who received 27 per cent of the per diems and 47 per cent of the expense allowance indicated in the auditor’s report; the commissioner on the Post-Secondary Education Commission? That was it, was it not?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "I’m not aware of the detail the hon. member is inquiring about but I shall find out and reply to him." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Sudbury." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. M. C. Germa (Sudbury)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Transportation and Communications. As it is not apparent that any benefits have accrued to the consumer as a result of the freight rate reduction programme into northern Ontario, can the minister cite any one specific consumer item which has had a price reduction on account of the freight rate reduction programme by the Northern Transportation Commission?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. R. Rhodes (Minister of Transportation and Communications)", "text": [ "No, Mr. Speaker, I can’t cite any specific commodity, but I can say that there will be a new announcement very shortly. As you know, there was an experiment in this area. It did not perhaps come forward as we had hoped it would. It has been reassessed in connection with a group of citizens in the northeastern part of the province, and a new programme will be brought forth very shortly. But I can’t mention any specific commodity at this time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Germa", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Could the minister also give us the details of the total revenue loss to the Ontario Northland Transportation Commission on account of the programme and tell us who is the greatest benefactor of these lost revenues?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I will attempt to get that information for the hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Downsview is next." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Natural Resources. Could he explain to us the basis on which payments in the amount of $59,578 were made to a firm of consultants and writers on public relations to manage the information and public relations programmes for historical parks in that year? This was done without the prior approval of the deputy minister of the department; and there were apparently payments made to a firm called Communications-6 Inc. Who were they, who found them and on whose authority was this expenditure made?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. L. Bernier (Minister of Natural Resources)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, this information, as the member is very much aware, just came to my attention late yesterday afternoon. I have asked the deputy for a full report, and I will have that for the member just as quickly as I can. I might say that this particular contract has come to an end, and we have called tenders for a new public relations officer for the Huronia area." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "By way of supplementary, could the minister shed a little light on who Communications-6 Inc. is?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "No, I can’t, Mr. Speaker, but I will get the information." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for High Park." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. M. Shulman (High Park)", "text": [ "A question of the Minister of Health, Mr. Speaker: Can the minister explain why his department has lost its interest in preventive medicine? Specifically, if you will recall, some time ago the department announced with great fanfare that OHIP was going to pay for well-female examinations every six months. A big press release was issued, and yet very quietly the department has issued a notice to all physicians saying it no longer will pay for this type of preventive medicine. Are they no longer interested in the department in the prevention of cancer?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. F. S. Miller (Minister of Health)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, no matter what crib notes I get, each day he asks another question that is not on them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "That is the plan." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "It is carefully worked out. We know the notes the minister gets; we get copies of the notes and ask other questions." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "We have a cute Minister of Health." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Cute in the literal term or just visually?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "What is the minister’s answer to the question?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "I would not say that the ministry has lost its interest in either the prevention of cancer or, of course, preventive medicine. I would think that the conference of health ministers of Canada and of the provinces of Canada, held in Ottawa last month, in fact pointed out how important this measure is and how the focus of the health care programme has been too much upon treating illnesses once they arise and not enough on the prevention.", "I can only say that I am extremely keen and very much aware that in this economy we have today, where we can afford the luxuries of life that in fact create poor health, one of our real problems is getting people even to care about keeping themselves in condition and taking some of the measures that are necessary to safeguard their own health." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "What about those who have the incentive?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "As a supplementary, Mr. Speaker: In view of the minister’s fine sentiments, will he resume the programme which he abandoned so recently of paying for well-female examinations every six months, which the second former Minister of Health announced with such a great advance flurry and which has been dropped?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Well, it seems to me this was a subject of a lot of controversy in the press a short while back. The controversy was a medical controversy, not a political one, and that was the question of the value of some of the tests that are involved in that particular examination --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "The Pap smears." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Yes, the Pap smear test specifically. As I recall, there was a real war between different factions of the medical profession as to whether in fact the Pap smear test --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Oh, surely not?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "I am recalling only what the medical profession said." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "No, I don’t think he is -- not the Pap test." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "A further supplementary, if I may. Is the minister suggesting that there is a difference of opinion in the medical profession as to the value of Pap smears? Is that what he believes? Is that what he really believes?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "I have found many differences of opinion in the medical profession." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "The minister is in bad trouble." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "So is the medical profession." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for York-Forest Hill is next." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. P. G. Givens (York-Forest Hill)", "text": [ "I have a question of the Minister of Transportation and Communications: In view of the statement, reported in this morning’s newspaper, of Mr. Richard Soberman, who advocates the replacement of the Scarborough Expressway by LRT instead of the Krauss-Maffei system -- because he said that this will work now, and we want something that will work now and not in the future -- would the minister reconsider the complete GO-Urban policy of the ministry with a view to accentuating the incoming of light rapid transit because it is more efficient, it is of lesser cost, it is demonstrably better and it is almost immediately available?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "If he opts for something that will work now and not in the future, he is dead." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have not read Mr. Soberman’s total comments. I did hear some reporting on it last night. It seems to me that he didn’t compare it with the Krauss-Maffei; he simply said that it was possible to put it in in place of the expressway and he has stated that this is what he thought should be done.", "As to what is the best way of handling the urban transit problem and the best type of method to be used, that is a matter of opinion. At this time I’m not about to say that we will change the whole direction because of Mr. Soberman’s statement; not at all." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A supplementary, Mr. Speaker; Mr. Soberman’s statement in effect says that the Krauss-Maffei system, through the southeast as the government had envisaged it, should be abandoned as should the expressway and that light rail transit, available within two to three years, be implemented along a specific right of way. Gradually the Krauss-Maffei system is being dismembered point by point. The minister has only the mid-Toronto corridor left out of the original five lanes. Surely, he would use Soberman’s report as a basis to indicate to the House and the public that he will reduce the overall amount of money committed to Krauss-Maffei and perhaps consider its abandonment?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I don’t think that the government’s policy in this matter is going to be dictated by a statement made by Mr. Soberman --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "It is not just Soberman." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "-- which in effect is a report to the Metropolitan Toronto council which hasn’t even decided what it is going to do with it. Perhaps we should wait and find out what Metro’s thinking is on it, initially, before we start making statements based on his thoughts." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Metro clearly has purposely discarded the report." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Windsor West." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "A question of the Chairman of the Management Board of Cabinet, Mr. Speaker, with reference to the negotiations and conversations that have taken place between the government and the Civil Service Association of Ontario on behalf of the community college faculties: Who, in his opinion, would best decide which items are negotiable when the public service tribunal under Judge Little or the arbitration tribunal under Judge Anderson decide they don’t have the power to decide which items are negotiable? Should it be through the courts or by reference back to the Legislature of Ontario?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, at the moment this board has been legally constituted; the matter at this moment in time is in the hands of Judge Anderson and I would leave it to his adjudication." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for York Centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "A supplementary, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "All right, a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "It isn’t a question of leaving items to Judge Anderson’s decision or not. My question was, what is the minister going to do when Judge Anderson says he cannot decide which items are negotiable? Where will that decision be made in the event that that decision from Judge Anderson is forthcoming?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "Since that board has not yet met, Mr. Speaker, it is a hypothetical question which I do not wish to answer." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for York Centre." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "A question of the Provincial Secretary for Social Development, Mr. Speaker: With the 12-to-8 decision last night of the York county board to hire new teachers, will the government intervene under the appropriate section -- it is section 12(1)(1) of the Ministry of Education Act -- if it has evidence that a substantial percentage of the registered voters of York wish it to establish a trusteeship and call for a new election of trustees?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. M. Birch (Provincial Secretary for Social Development)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the only comment that I’d be prepared to make at the moment is that the Minister of Education (Mr. Wells) is currently holding conversations this morning with those people." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "A further supplementary: May I ask the provincial secretary to consider this legislation? I would also ask the provincial secretary to pass on to the minister my question whether, if the government concludes the existing legislation does not permit intervention in the form I’m suggesting, will the government introduce such legislation, because if the voters want the board’s actions to be overruled we should be sure they have that right to do so, because I fear this whole matter is going to escalate far beyond the regions of York?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order! Question!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "It will escalate to compulsory arbitration." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Any further response to the question?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mrs. Birch", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I will be very happy to pass along these comments." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for High Park is next." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "I have a question of the Attorney General, Mr. Speaker. Is the Attorney General aware that this past week in this city a certain Billy Ginsberg, a stock promoter, had his house blown up and his partner, one Bernie Frankel, was beaten with a baseball bat right in the middle of Bay St. for refusing to pay certain moneys to the Mafia?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. R. Welch (Provincial Secretary for Justice and Attorney General)", "text": [ "No, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, if the minister is not aware, would he be willing to make inquiries and take some action, because obviously while the government has got rid of the crime in the construction industry, it still hasn’t touched the basic problem of organized crime in this city?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would be very happy to look into the matter referred to by the hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Can the Attorney General imagine a beating on Bay St.?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "In the middle of Bay St." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The oral question period has now expired.", "Petitions.", "Presenting reports.", "Hon. Mr. Stewart presented the annual report of the Crop Insurance Commission of Ontario, 1972-1973, and the annual report of the Agricultural Research Institute of Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to table the annual Ontario Mineral Review for 1973. If I may, I will make a few comments on this particular report with your permission. You are aware this is a very early publication of this summary of the mining activity in the Province of Ontario. It is a long-standing tradition within the old Department of Mines and Northern Affairs and this has been carried on into the new Ministry of Natural Resources.", "This particular report has gained acceptance as an authoritative reference work of value to the industry and to the government and to educational institutions, but it is always a pleasure to report on the achievements of the mining industry in this province. It is even more of a pleasure than usual to comment on the result of the past year, when production of minerals soared to an all-time record of $1.779 billion, nearly $245 million better than the total for 1972. Translated into terms of the entire provincial economy, this means that mineral production each year amounts to about 3.7 per cent of the gross provincial product." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "What did we get in taxes?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "This is surely a sector of our economic life which should not go unnoticed. These and other facts -- some not generally known -- concerning this major industry are contained in this particular review. The second part of the review deals with some of the facets of the Ministry of Natural Resources’ operations in which I am sure the public will be interested." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "How much more did we get in taxes?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Motions.", "Hon. Mr. Winkler moves that Mr. Rowe, the member for the electoral district of Northumberland, and Mr. Hodgson, the member for the electoral district of York North, be appointed chairman and deputy chairman respectively of the committees of the whole House for the present session.", "Motion agreed to." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Introduction of bills.", "Orders of the day." ] }, { "speaker": "Clerk of the House", "text": [ "The first order, resuming the adjourned debate on the motion for an address in reply to the speech of the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor at the opening of the session." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I want my first comments to be directed to you, sir, and to say how happy we all are to see you back in that chair, looking your old self and full of fire, and to assure you of our complete confidence in your ability to govern our debates with justice and fairness. We reserve the right, of course, to amend that opinion as events require. However, I recall to your mind, sir, that it wasn’t this side that challenged your ruling before Christmas." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Ruston (Essex-Kent)", "text": [ "Where is he now?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. R. Good (Waterloo North)", "text": [ "Look what happened to him." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "You have had, more or less, to suffer this sort of challenge and harassment from all sides. Still, it is our opinion you do it with grace and ability and we are very glad, sir, to see you have made a full recovery and are back with us in your position of importance and authority.", "I would like, sir, to state as well that all of us are sorry to see the end of the term of our present Lieutenant Governor. There will be an occasion, surely, when this can be expressed by other members as well and I am very glad to see that the Premier (Mr. Davis) has taken some initiative in this regard. It is very fitting indeed.", "I feel a special responsibility in this connection since His Honour resides in my area, although not directly in my constituency, and he has been associated in his former political life at least with me and my father. Ross Macdonald was first elected to Parliament in 1935 and as you are aware has had many high posts of political responsibility with the government of Canada and in the Senate. His term as Lieutenant Governor has really shown the strength and breadth of the Governor as a man. I know of no person in that position in our history who is more loved and revered and honoured in all parts of the province and right here in this House.", "I want to speak briefly about the situation that concerns us pertaining to education. The newspapers and radio reports inform us that a large group of citizens from the York area is going to come to Queen’s Park today and no doubt will be coming within the next few minutes. I feel, sir, that the seriousness of the situation cannot be overestimated. It appears that the government, particularly the Minister of Education (Mr. Wells), has run out of any viable initiative and although we are told by the provincial secretary that he is meeting with groups from that area at the present time, the fact remains that the government’s policy is seen to be chaotic. It has really led to a fiasco in which the schools in that area have been closed for five weeks in an effort to allow negotiations, hopefully conducted in good faith, to come to agreement or some acceptable fruition.", "I have had an opportunity, along with the hon. member for Port Arthur (Mr. Foulds) to visit the area on the invitation of the striking teachers, to express our views to them and hear their own. I can’t help feeling that in the circumstances in York it is difficult to put all the blame for the protracted strike on one side or the other. I feel that the trustees have an incorrect understanding of their elected and elective responsibility. They somehow feel that they are saving the rest of the province from the encroachment of teacher authority. I get a feeling they have a fear that they must not give in to the demands of the teachers and, as a result of their intransigence and, in my opinion, their lack of understanding of the situation, the schools have remained closed for this very long period of time.", "In talking to the teachers they have eight specific areas on which they are basing their strike; some of them are more significant than others. Very specifically, they are demanding a say in working conditions and specifically in the pupil-teacher ratio. In my opinion, this is the crux of the problem; the trustees feel that allowing the teachers to take part in that sort of negotiation would hand over what they consider to be their sole responsibility, that is the power to run the schools.", "The problem that I see is that the trustees don’t realize that the community, certainly the members of this Legislature, the Minister of Education himself, have stated categorically that the teachers, through their professional organizations and individually through their negotiating teams, do have a responsibility to participate and negotiate the conditions of work. The fact that the trustees have been unwilling to accept that is perhaps more than anything else the single rock upon which the negotiations have foundered so far.", "I must be frank as well and say that in our visits to the teachers in the area, and I believe we had an opportunity to speak to all 670 of them and hear questions and comments from a good many of them, we found that one thing that does not appear in the negotiations was very much in their mind. I refer, and it’s rather unfortunate I have to refer to this, to their lack of confidence in the ability of the director of education himself. Certainly it is not my place nor my desire to be critical of him but simply to report to you, sir, that he does not seem to have the confidence of the teachers; yet this is a matter which apparently has not come up for any considerable public discussion.", "The trustees on the other hand have, in my view, failed to come to grips with the very real problems the teachers have indicated clearly are the negotiating points. I refer specifically, as I say, to the right the teachers feel they must have, not only in York but elsewhere in this province, to negotiate, the terms of employment of course but also the conditions of work. This seems to be the shoal beyond which we must pass if a settlement is going to be achieved.", "I would call on the Minister of Education to make it clear, if in fact he has not already made it clear, that we are going to insist on that being a term to be negotiated; and that the trustees must simply accept it, because it is going to be and is already stated as the policy of not only the government of Ontario and the Ministry of Education but the Legislature.", "The situation that we presently have is approaching chaos in York. The fact that the trustees are now going to attempt, based on a decision of a divided vote taken last night, to fill the vacant positions by hiring other teachers is completely irresponsible and untenable. I don’t believe there is any possibility that this can come about, since in fact the whole system has been brought to a close by the inability of the trustees and the teachers to reach a reasonable agreement.", "The minister must, of course, take a personal responsibility for this since his inadequate policies in Bill 274, following forward in Bill 275, have led to this chaotic situation. The principle put forward by the government, opposed by the two opposition parties, was that in no circumstances would the schools close. Well the schools are closed, but the unfortunate aspect is that the minister has not used his authority, or at least his good offices, to require that the two sides do sit down together, not just through their negotiating legal representation, and in the presence of the minister continue to negotiate until a settlement is reached. I believe that putting this off for such a protracted period in the hands of the negotiators for the Ministry of Labour is inadequate under these circumstances; the minister has shown a substantial failure in his ability in this regard.", "The government’s policy has been knocked into a cocked hat. It was unacceptable to begin with and even they have withdrawn from it. Just a week ago the Premier himself said that perhaps even the concept of compulsory arbitration is subject to review, as certainly it should be. It’s going to be nothing but a continuing difficulty for them as they attempt to impose it on a broader and broader area of the people in this province.", "The teachers of the community colleges are finding it completely unacceptable and it was ridiculous in the extreme to lump the teachers in the community colleges in with the new civil service negotiating procedures statute that was passed by this House now some months ago. To require, by law, that these people must attend to their classroom duties and their right to withdraw their services be taken away is unconscionable and inadmissible and is going to be nothing but a problem for the government in the future.", "I would predict from the way things are going now that there will be an illegal strike in the community colleges. Once again, while we are all prepared to say that this is unfortunate, still if those classrooms close, it will be because of, as much as anything, not the inability of the government to bargain with the teachers concerned but because of the requirement of a tribunal imposing a settlement which the teachers do not feel is in their best interests.", "The same can be said for the hospital workers -- that while we, on this side, are prepared to support compulsory arbitration for an essential service like hospitals, it is meaningless, of course, and unfair in the extreme, if it is going to be imposed at the same time that spending ceilings directly associated with the salaries of the working staff involved are going to be imposed ahead of all other considerations.", "It is interesting to note that two government ministries have inaugurated studies into the inequities in the hospital workers’ situation. The regrettable thing is that this simply postpones a rational and just settlement as it would pertain to the problems that the hospital workers have experienced over so many years. We have seen an illegal strike in the hospital situation a year ago last summer. There was no final conclusion there. It was simply an embarrassment for everyone concerned since we believe that the law should be respected but, in a case such as this where government regulation rather imposes itself on any concept of fairness, it is a serious matter indeed.", "The Minister of Education has the responsibility in his hands completely. It has been suggested that if the school board cannot function, a petition in the local area might very well be used to ask the minister to intervene with his undoubted powers and directly. We, on this side, would hope that that is unnecessary.", "There was an indication last week that the members of the board of trustees were thinking of resigning in a body. That too, surely, is a very extreme situation when the solution lies within their hands. If the minister were to indicate that his ceilings, which have been disrupting the negotiations both there and elsewhere, can be moderated to settle this strike, then surely this is what must be done.", "We do not believe that the teachers, as a group, are so lacking in moderation that they are not prepared to come to some settlement somewhere between the two extreme salary demands. After all, settlement has been achieved in many other situations similar to this. But I would say that the minister owes it to the students in the area, as well as to the parents who are going to be talking to him, no doubt, outside the Legislature a bit later, to intervene personally to see that the two sides sit down in each other’s presence and to keep at it until a settlement is reached, because surely one is possible. We will not admit that a situation could develop where a settlement is not possible if the minister is persuaded that his ceilings must be at least moderated in this particular situation and that he must take a personal position in that regard.", "Mr. Speaker, I wanted to say something about that at the beginning of my remarks because it is a matter of great urgency and pertains to high policy that the government has put forward over a number of years, a policy associated with the removal of the right to strike and the freedom of the individual in this regard which, I believe, they now see to be unacceptable. We have two policy ministers here this morning. It is very good of them to stay around and I would hope that they are in a position, perhaps, to indicate to their colleagues that, surely an amendment to that policy is required." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur)", "text": [ "Two practising ministers." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "You know, certain things have been happening of substantial importance in this regard and it seems to me that the Premier himself -- although he is not here this morning, and I regret that and I’m sure he does too -- the Premier himself is carefully searching his alternatives to find a political stance which is more acceptable to the people of the province and perhaps more acceptable even to his supporters in this Legislature.", "We have been extremely interested in reports that have indicated that the private public opinion polling and sampling organization funded by the Conservative Party has been making regular reports to the Premier and the government on these matters week by week. There was every indication that during the problems with the teachers and the school boards before Christmas that the sampling organization -- I believe it is based in Detroit -- had indicated to the Premier that he and the Minister of Education had the high ground and that the people said, “Sure, put it to the teachers. They get too much money, they don’t work hard enough, and they are getting too big for their boots.” Somehow or other they took that kind of advice much too seriously and there has been a backlash across this community which indicates that the people are substantially and seriously displeased with the inadequacies in government policy in that connection.", "It is interesting when you hear the Premier waffle on his positions. You can almost think that the day before somebody would phone him up -- and we wouldn’t suggest that it was Dalton Camp Associates, or anybody like that -- and say, “Gosh, this week things don’t look quite as good. Bill. Maybe you had better moderate that a little bit.” It seems to me that policy is largely being made by the responses from the public opinion polling organizations that privately report, but another indication is that the Premier has found himself personally in receipt of probably the poorest support across the province that he has ever experienced.", "It was interesting, I think, last fall to read in the Toronto Star -- it wasn’t a private poll and it wasn’t a poll that actually inspired me in all of its particulars but there was a poll published then that indicated that only 28 per cent of the people of the province were satisfied with the leadership and administrative abilities of the Premier, and I suppose it was a response to what they thought of the Premier as an individual. We have heard, and it has been reliably reported, on the CBC no less, that a private poll is now available to the Conservatives indicating almost the identical levels of support, or lack of it in this case, for the Premier and his leadership in the province and in the party. This has surely galvanized him into the kind of action which we have seen in the last few weeks." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "That is not galvanized action." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I tell you when the Premier and his policy ministers, who have always got time to travel around the --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)", "text": [ "New awareness!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "-- province with him although they may not have time to come into the Legislature and listen to the debate, the Premier goes out weekend after weekend, they hire a hall or get one donated, since they usually indicate that they want to do it as economically as possible, and there he is every Saturday morning talking to the citizens and listening to them. And believe me I will be the last --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)", "text": [ "That includes asking him questions." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I would be the last to criticize him for doing that. I just wish his responsibility carried over into the feeling that he should attend the Legislature for these debates, which he obviously considers to be rather routine and non-productive." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "The only thing that is galvanized is the garbage cans." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I tell you that this is a response and he is sitting down with his coterie of political advisers and they are saying, “Okay, we are going to have to go to Barrie this Saturday. We’ve got to get to Kingston the next Saturday, London the next, and we are going to go up into the north,” and so on. Good politics; you would almost think that an election campaign was on, because I notice that the leader of the NDP is pretty active around the province as well and, by God, so is the leader of the Liberal Party." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. P. MacBeth (York West)", "text": [ "About time, since those guys got the new cars." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "And I would say to you, Mr. Speaker, in your other capacity, that your own activities have been noted in bringing to the attention of the citizens and the taxpayers of this province the substantial inequities in the policies of the present government, and that you, sir, yourself have done this in your political capacity in a most admirable and effective way." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "He is the Speaker, nonpartisan." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Oh yes, well I was talking about his other capacity, of course." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "His other hat." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "That’s right. So the one response to the information that has come to the Premier that he is failing in maintaining this kind of support is to bring him into the House. I tell you that that is much appreciated since this debate, in my view and in his I know, is one of substantial importance, where in my view policies of the government can be influenced, affected and changed, and where he owes a duty to his high office to attend. He is now surrounded by five cabinet ministers, so this is becoming a great occasion indeed; and I hope that I will live up to those expectations.", "His second response was to realize that the perception of his cabinet and himself across the province was that somehow or other the control that the people had come to expect from his predecessors had been lost; the control of the leader over the party, the control of the Premier over the government." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. G. Davis (Premier)", "text": [ "How about the Leader of the Opposition’s control over his party?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Well, Mr. Speaker, I don’t seem to be bothered with problems of controlling the party. We work together for the good of us all; and it seems to me to be working very effectively indeed." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "The majority of his party voted against him." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "So the Premier says: “Phase two is to shake up -- “" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)", "text": [ "If he wants to talk about problems of control, he can talk to me." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "“ -- this gang of scalawags and to dismiss from the cabinet those who are seen to be ineffectual and put in their place those who perhaps can try again.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Gaunt (Huron-Bruce)", "text": [ "And somebody disagreed and somebody didn’t." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "That’s it. Well, I don’t want to spend a lot of time talking about the cabinet changes, other than to probably express a personal view about one or two of them.", "I was very sorry indeed to see the former Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Carton) let’s say dismissed. He is sitting now up in the back row there, happier than he has been for a long time. And to tell you the truth, Mr. Speaker, I look forward to hearing him take part in the debate later this session, because as a private member his contributions to the general debates were probably among the best that came from any side." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Agreed, with one exception." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I can remember on one occasion he used his very persuasive style to persuade the former Premier to make adequate compensation and adequate financing to the residents who had lost their rights and their privacy along the expanded 401.", "He somehow lost his fire when he came down to the front desk and appeared once again to be subject to the dictation of his boss. Now that he is back in the back row, I think that we may be treated once again to perhaps some more independent expressions of his opinions.", "I thought perhaps one of the most fatuous editorial comments that was made about the cabinet changes was in reference to the Minister of Transportation and Communications. It said he was fired because he had approved too many expressways; that the Premier dismissed him to show once and for all and for everyone to see that there were going to be no more expressways, and that it was the Premier’s wish." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Is the Leader of the Opposition still in favour of Spadina?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I should not perhaps paraphrase the Globe and Mail editorial quite so freely, but that was the concept. I have a feeling that the decision to go ahead with Highway 402 was not dictated by anybody, except maybe the Minister of Agriculture and Food (Mr. Stewart), assisted by his now parliamentary secretary and certain others -- that the decision to go ahead with -- what is it? -- 406 down in the St. Catharines area, was not a decision made autocratically by the Minister of Transportation and Communications, but simply a political decision made on ballots by the Tories in the area.", "It may well be that the former Minister of Transportation and Communications was not prepared to accept the new political reality and that the time has come to start spending some money in the north. I agree wholeheartedly that the time to spend money in the north is now and, as a matter of fact, politically the government is doing the right thing. The people in the north have suffered for a long period of time from an inadequate share of the transportation budget, and surely, the changes in that regard are going to be of great importance.", "The second former cabinet minister I want to deal with just briefly is the former Attorney General (Mr. Bales), who was subject to a great deal of criticism in the House for his land holdings in the Pickering area. Certainly we criticized him for saying that if there were profits there he would give them to charity, but I recall to you, sir, that the former Attorney General himself stated publicly that he was prepared to resign if his boss felt that there was a conflict of interest of any substance or concern there. He was supported at the time by the Premier. I felt that under those circumstances that the former Attorney General should have resigned, just as the present Minister of Energy (Mr. McKeough) resigned under similar circumstances.", "It has been a tradition in our democratic process that those resignations are usually followed sometimes by a by-election or a general election in which the people assess the charges themselves and in the best of all courts, the democratic court, the people give a judgement. In the case of the Minister of Energy, he has made his way back without such a judgement, but probably the member for York Mills should have resigned under those circumstances, rather than wait and be cut off in the ignominious way in which he was retired from the cabinet just a few days ago.", "I know that the Premier expressed publicly the problem that he faced under those circumstances. I’m sure he was remembering the fact that the former Attorney General is a man of integrity and a fine man." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. L. M. Reilly (Eglinton)", "text": [ "A fine man." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I’m sure he even remembered that in his political capacity the former Attorney General was chairman of the “Bill Davis for Leader” campaign in Toronto and York. Now we find the former Attorney General up in the back row contemplating his future, probably in private practice.", "It’s too bad, but I suppose the Premier felt, if his support was down to 28 per cent and the experts were telling him that his cabinet was seen as a collection of people who were prepared to live with conflict of interest, who were prepared to defend contracts going to companies who had given substantial political donations; and that the cabinet was prepared to allow large contracts to be awarded without any reasonable tendering procedures at all, that somehow or other it had to be changed and turned around.", "I’m not so sure that he has done this. He fired five. Let’s say five are no longer in the cabinet. The former Minister of Correctional Services (Mr. Apps), the Lady Byng award winner, had indicated quite clearly that he was not prepared to run again, but the Premier jumped at the chance to get him out of there. You remember Syl always thought he was going to be minister of youth. It was too bad in many respects that he never had a chance to show what he could do in preparing programmes and having them accepted by the young people in the province.", "He was brought into the cabinet in the Correctional Services ministry, which is kind of a passing-out ministry. The present minister, the former Minister of Health (Mr. Potter), says that he is going into that ministry for a rest. Surely that’s a strange way to approach this high responsibility, but I noticed as I glanced over to the former Minister of Health during question period that he was relaxing and enjoying it, as his colleagues were attempting to explain why large advertising budgets are still being paid out without any contract and so on." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Just like in Ottawa." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "The Premier says just like in Ottawa. If he thinks he is somehow destroying the argument by saying that, then he is pretty naive, because if they are doing the same thing in Ottawa, then they are serious rip-off artists just like this government." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Ruston", "text": [ "That is right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I’ll tell you this, Mr. Speaker, when we open the newspapers and see these tremendous ads about a fair share for the taxpayers of Ontario, we realize that the spending machine is starting a role begun by Bob Macaulay who is retained at -- what? $70 an hour -- by the government to advise on energy policy. It is really the same old advice that he gave back in 1962 when he said, “Let’s get into the advertising business.” What did they call it? You know, the hippopotamus." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)", "text": [ "Oh, yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "He said, “Let’s have a big advertising programme. Let’s rent all the billboards. Let’s take the full page ads. Let’s have four colours on the television. Who is to stop us?”", "Wasn’t Bob Macaulay the one who said that? And now we see the advertising by Ontario. That was it. Now it’s a fair share Ontario. It’s almost like the new deal but fair share goes pretty well." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "More like the old deal." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "The thing is, Mr. Speaker, that we have seen this ever since Macaulay thought about it for the election of 1963 -- it happened in 1967 and 1971, and now we are building up to the 1975 -- where, in the guise of informing the citizens and taxpayers about government policy, they simply spend the citizens’ money in self-aggrandizement and political propaganda. That’s exactly what is happening, and the fact that Dalton Camp Associates gets $1,250,000 without a contract or any agreement --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "They don’t get it. They don’t get it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "-- simply confirms to me, sir, as I am sure it does to you, that this government in its policy is directed by the public opinion polls that are fed to the Premier week by week. We can see the backing and filling that comes as he receives them. He is concerned that his personal support in the province, we are told, is down to 28 per cent -- I wish I could report something as dramatic on the other side -- so he shakes up the cabinet, dismisses his old friends, brings in a bunch of new people who are untried and who are going to be failures in turn." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "No. Great ministers." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Then we turn to the Speech from the Throne, which is a third sort of level of defence: “What can I do to restore the confidence and the good feeling in ‘good old Bill’ from Brampton?” I believe that even on this level there is another serious failure. I listened with care to the reading of the speech, I have since examined it very carefully, and I have found that it is substantially insignificant.", "Let me be fair. I think the idea of a prescription drug plan for pensioners is great. I think it is a programme that is going to be supported on all sides. The concept of an environmental hearing board is one that is important and we will give it the support it deserves if in fact there is an objective hearing on the large programmes that the government brings forward which are interfering with the environment so seriously. But in general it does not come to grips with the problems of inflation and the cost of living, it does not come to grips with the problems of provision of housing and land-use planning; it is in this latter area that I want to speak more directly for a few moments.", "The Ontario Task Force on Housing reported several months ago that there is a near-crisis in housing in this province but, as the Speech from the Throne has revealed, the provincial government still has no policy to control spiralling land and housing costs. The average resale price of homes in Hamilton, for example, was 21 per cent higher in the last half of 1973 than a year earlier. House lot prices in Ottawa jumped up 150 per cent from 1965 to 1972. The average price of all houses sold in Ontario rose by 26 per cent between 1970 and 1973, with much more spectacular increases in specific communities, such as Metropolitan Toronto.", "The real problem, the most serious problem is here in the Metro area, where the cost of shelter rose by 36 per cent last year alone. Thirty-six per cent in one year, an increase of $1,000 per month on the average house. The housing cost increase was about four times as much as the rise in the cost of living and almost twice as much as food price increases in 1973.", "Everywhere in Ontario housing prices are out of control and the ripples, almost tidal waves, from the Toronto housing situation are spreading throughout southern Ontario as prospective home buyers and land speculators search farther and farther afield.", "In St. Catharines, for example, land prices started to rise about 18 months ago because of pressures in the Toronto real estate market. In Barrie, another good example, almost all housing purchases can be directly attributed to the lack of housing and the high prices in this very community.", "The Ontario Economic Council reported last year, “The primary cause is the scarcity of developed land,” something that the new Minister of Housing (Mr. Handleman) has indicated that he is prepared to accept and act on if possible. The demand for land far exceeds the supply, and the shortage has been heightened by competition for available sites between foreign and domestic capital. The result is artificially high land costs which are eventually passed on to home buyers.", "German, Swiss, American, Japanese and British investors have all been attracted to Ontario’s buoyant property market, but their demand for real estate has resulted in inflated housing prices for Canadians. Last year the Urban Development Institute revealed that 13 foreign-controlled companies owned half of the land available for housing between Oshawa and Burlington. Let me repeat that: Between Oshawa and Burlington, half the land available for development -- that is, half of the land that has been assembled -- is owned by 13 foreign-controlled companies.", "Foreign firms have also made substantial purchases in other parts of the province. Now, in this House there are members from every area of Ontario and, Mr. Speaker, as an individual member you are aware of the intrusions of buyers from outside the community and from outside Canada who are prepared to buy anything in the way of real estate or property at any price.", "In my own community, you go into the small towns and you find that the old hotel, maybe or maybe not licensed premises, often in a state of disrepair, economically unviable under present circumstances, has recently been bought by someone representing interests from outside of Canada.", "Farm tracts are being bought up in large amounts. Foreign firms have also made substantial purchases in the urban centres. The Swiss-owned firm of Fidinam (Ontario) Ltd., for instance, controls a large tract of land in Norfolk county near the Nanticoke generating project. It was bought some years ago with the expectation that the Nanticoke generating complex would increase the value of that land. The Treasurer (Mr. White) has frozen its utilization but eventually planning decisions will have to be made which will either set it aside for all time, which is very unlikely, or open it up for development.", "But these companies have not confined their acquisitions to raw land. The select committee on economic and cultural affairs reported five months ago: “There is concern about substantial foreign investment in urban commercial developments, both new and existing. It is claimed that through market linkages, undue upward pressure on residential real hyper-investment of this sort is putting estate prices and shelter costs.” The amount of foreign-owned land in central Ontario is staggering. The downtown Toronto block bounded by Elm, St. Patrick, Simcoe and Dundas streets is owned by a corporation known as DWS Toronto Holdings Ltd., which is controlled by the Dreyfus group of New York.", "A German company, Lehndorff Management Ltd., owns property at 360 Bay St. German interests also recently bought property on Don Mills Rd. and Gateway Blvd. in East York.", "EILPRO Holdings Ltd., a Swiss company, has substantial holdings in central Toronto, including the block bounded by Yonge, Wellington, Scott and Front streets; property fronting on Chestnut, Armoury and Centre streets; property on the southwest corner of Bloor and Jarvis streets; property on the south side of Walton St., between Bay and Yonge streets. EILPRO bought land fronting on Bay, Gerrard and Walton streets from Japanese interests about two years ago.", "Besides its substantial acreage in Norfolk county, Fidinam (Ontario) Ltd., a Swiss firm, owns or controls property at the northeast corner of Bloor and Yonge streets -- that’s the Workmen’s Compensation Board head office -- at the northeast comer of University Ave. and Wellington St., and on the west side of Yonge St. north of Davenport Rd. Fidinam also controls the Park Plaza Hotel at the northwest comer of Bloor St. and Avenue Rd.; land assemblies in the vicinity of the northeast corner of Bloor St. and Avenue Rd.; and most of the block bounded by Queen, Victoria, Richmond and Yonge streets.", "Trizec Corp., controlled by Star (Great Britain) Holdings Ltd., owns the Hyatt House Hotel and the Yorkdale Shopping Centre.", "MEPC Canadian Properties Ltd., another British company, owns the northeast comer of Marlborough and Yonge streets. Hammerson Properties of England owns the southwest comer of University Ave. and Wellington St.", "Capital and Counties Real Estate of England acquired property on Dundas St. east of University Ave. when it gained control of Great Northern Capital Corp.", "Such extensive foreign participation in the Ontario land market not only infringes on our natural heritage, but also contributes to higher shelter costs for the residents of this province. This type of foreign investment does not create jobs, or advance technology. It benefits only the investors. The provincial government must act promptly to restrict future land purchases to residents of Canada and Canadian-owned corporations or Canadian-controlled corporations, or an even greater influx of foreign money will further inflate Ontario’s land prices.", "Mr. Speaker, I put this to the Premier and the administration most seriously, that there has always been the feeling here that we have a wide-open economy. I can remember the Premier saying, “Surely if we have the right to buy properties such as condominiums in Florida, why should we restrict the purchase of properties here in Canada to foreign investors?” I would simply say to you, sir, that with our population and our economic viability, that if we leave all of our properties open to the investment of foreign capital, then we are going to find that this property is going to be almost entirely foreign-owned and controlled and that the pressures brought by investments of this type are unnaturally inflating and dislocating the prices that we ourselves must pay for our own housing and commercial investments. This is true not only in the urban centres, but it is equally true in our recreational centres. The time has surely come for us to say to people who are not Canadian, “You are welcome here on a lease basis only.”", "I think, on the other hand, as far as our own residents are concerned, that they should have the right to buy recreation properties in the north where in fact they are compatible with the ecological and environmental plan and programme for the areas to be developed.", "We are concerned with the encroachment in our agricultural areas. I have become quite sensitive, particularly to the class 1 and 2 agricultural land arguments, and I am sure that there is not a government minister who doesn’t think about this now whenever a programme is going to encroach on further property in the Province of Ontario. Unfortunately, we cannot freeze expansion, although some municipalities have attempted to do so under the direction of the planners at the provincial level.", "I know of municipalities in my own constituency that are proud of the fact that no serviced lots have been opened up in two years and no severances granted in the same period of time. Perhaps this would be something to be proud of if in fact we had achieved zero population growth. But far from that fact, our population continues to grow, although at a lower rate, and immigration has been reduced, but we still find in many communities where government policy or lack of policy has frozen development that young people embarking on the responsibilities of married and family life, have one alternative only, and that is to crowd further into facilities that are already available or to move out of the community into the urban centres and bring additional pressures of expansion there.", "We must realize that development cannot be frozen, even though individuals and politicians may from time to time call for that as an alternative. We cannot put all of the growth and development on the Canadian Shield, that area where people seem to think that houses are going to be set up on the rock so that the farmers can continue to grow food on the good land. I would hope that the government would return to the concepts of the Toronto-centred region and see that the Canadian Shield is going to have a good many incentives for further development. But we must not for a moment think that the communities already established in this province can be frozen at a no-growth status. We do have young people who want to live in their own community. They want to have a chance to work there.", "I will have something more to say about the intrusions of government programmes on class one and two land in a few moments, but I for one do not believe development can be stopped altogether, and anyone who preaches that is surely being unjust and unfair and unreasonable.", "I should say that when we talk about the pressures of foreign capital increasing the prices of our own land and housing stock, we must be aware that newly enriched Middle Eastern countries are already rumoured to be buying land in Ontario. When the “Sheikhs of Araby” see that the billions of dollars channelling into their treasuries can only buy so many solid gold Cadillacs, they are going to be looking for the kind of investments which in the long run will be much more valuable than the bullion that they are now demanding in payment for their precious oil, and some of the most valuable assets are, of course, the real estate right here in Ontario and other parts of Canada.", "We can see, Mr. Speaker, more and more, that buyers with foreign capital from Italy, Switzerland, Germany, the Netherlands, Great Britain and the oil-producing nations, are coming here with absolutely no restraints on the prices to be paid. If anything is for sale at any price it will be bought, its title transferred, and it will then become a real asset as far as the speculators, and particularly the investment council of these capital-intensive countries, are concerned.", "Relaxed Japanese regulations for investors in foreign land have been in effect for only a few years. As you are aware, Mr. Speaker, the outflow of Japanese capital was carefully controlled for many years at the time when the industry and the development of the industrial plant in Japan had to be financed with their own resources. But now this money is rolling out of Japan and it is coming into the investment in real estate in our own communities. The recent devaluation of the Canadian dollar in relation to European and Japanese currencies is also attracting foreign investment to Ontario’s real estate market which, because its value is rising so fast, is a better investment even than gold.", "Restrictions on foreign land ownership will ease the upward pressure on land prices somewhat, but tough measures are also required to stop land speculation by Canadians. Just yesterday the newly-elected president of the Ontario Real Estate Association estimated that 30 per cent of all land transactions in Ontario involved speculators. Land speculation in the Toronto area has recently been accelerating at an alarming rate. A representative of the Urban Development Institute estimated this week that the total acreage of assembled land around Metropolitan Toronto has increased by 50 per cent since last August as a result of feverish speculative activity.", "I am sure the Premier and his advisers are concerned about this. If you come from a rural area you are aware that once the farm holding of a traditional farm family has been broken, in other words the farm is sold, you can almost guarantee that it will be sold three more times in the next two years, each at a substantially inflated price.", "The real estate agents, of course, are very anxious to do this. Why should they not be? They collect their commission on the whole thing right from the word go, and this in addition adds upward pressure to the cost of the property.", "The attitude of those people who either have money to invest or can collect, scrape together, a down payment is that in land speculation they can’t lose, there will always be somebody along within a month of the purchase offering them more than they paid.", "We are told by builders, those developing new communities in urban areas particularly, that individuals, if they possibly can, no longer buy a house for themselves and their family, but they will try to buy five or six homes in a community such as that. They will make a down payment, then perhaps try to postpone the closing, and the builder will find that the houses have been resold at a substantial profit within four to five months.", "These are the things that must concern us all and surely must concern the government policy makers. The activity surely is not confined to Toronto. The provincial government has failed to develop a rational plan for the development and servicing of raw land. Rumours and uncertainty are fueling speculation throughout Ontario. The UDI representative stated that: “There isn’t a community in southern Ontario that doesn’t have land speculation going on around it. Until the province makes an announcement about where the next developments will go the speculation will continue. In the past few weeks it has gotten worse. There has never been as much speculative money around as there is now, and never as much uninformed speculation. Every little town is being bought up.” It is true. In the village of St. George, where housing of very, very moderate circumstances indeed was being traded between $10,000 and $15,000 no more than 18 months ago, it has now sky-rocketed to the point where one of these very moderate homes, indeed if it comes on the market and they do so only rarely, goes for $30,000 to $35,000.", "We are not talking about price controls; we are talking about the availability of serviced land and a programme to build housing so that people in urban, and also in rural communities, can have an opportunity for housing that is rationally associated with the amount of money available from their own employment. The government must act immediately to bring this intolerable situation under control. The unbridled greed of land speculators is pushing shelter costs out of reach for all but the wealthiest of our citizens. I don’t think we can expect people trading in land to say, “Oh, my, that price is too high. I will not take it.” That would be an unnatural expectation in the extreme.", "The people trade in land to make a profit, and they are making tremendous profits right now. As I drive into Toronto from my home from the west, I come along much the same route followed by the Premier, at least in the last few miles. He must be as aware as I am that the farmlands for 40 miles around this city are largely abandoned. The barns are falling down, the fences are in disrepair and the fields are growing nothing but golden-rod.", "This is because of the uncontrolled aspects of land speculation and not because of the farmers themselves who received a good price, took the money in most cases and either retired if they were elderly or took the money and bought viable farmland elsewhere. They were able to build new buildings, transfer their stock and continue as active dairy, beef and cash crop farmers elsewhere in the province. Some of this best land lies there growing weeds.", "It must bring tears to the eyes of the Minister of Agriculture and Food, because he doesn’t like to see it go out of production. As a farmer, I think he would like to get in there with a big plough and turn it back into production and make some money on it. I can’t understand why these lands cannot somehow be brought back into viable farming operations. Believe me when the Minister of Agriculture and Food says that he’s concerned about and is prepared to bring forward programmes requiring that, he will get support from this side, because we don’t like the looks of it. We believe it is wasteful and we do not believe that the speculators should simply sit back on their hunkers waiting until the price is right.", "This is a matter that concerns all of us. I hope that we are going to have something more than policy pronouncements but real action in that regard. The incentive to speculate in land must be removed by applying a steep rate of tax to these windfall gains. This tax should apply to profits from most sales of raw land and houses which are not occupied by the owner, but should not apply to profits from the sale of a principal residence or to profits from the sale of an owner-occupied family farm.", "It is not enough to say that the tax base we presently have will accommodate it. I believe it can be used to require that land be kept in production, and also at least to control in the public interest to some extent the unbridled situation that we are all so much aware of. In other words, the tax should be structured in such a way as to apply to speculators only without penalizing other landowners. A tax on speculative land profits can slow the price rise, but in order to reduce and stabilize housing costs in Ontario the provincial government must ensure that there is always an oversupply of serviced land available for residential development.", "The Ontario Economic Council remarked a year ago that by concentrating its efforts on house building programmes instead of land servicing the province was “treating the symptoms and not the disease.” The Ontario Economic Council also noted that Ontario lacks “a planned programme of ensuring an adequate supply of serviced land in the correct places.”", "As an immediate step, the provincial government should develop its own land holdings where they fit in with the municipal official plan. This would include, in the case of Ontario Housing holdings, the 3,000 acres assembled in Waterloo county where it fits in with the official plans of Kitchener-Waterloo and the new community known as Cambridge, and also the 1,700 acres at Malvern, where development is beginning. It has now progressed, I believe, to stage 3, but servicing should go forward on a priority basis to make these lands further available.", "The activities of the Ontario Housing Corp. should be expanded to encompass a land servicing programme with the objective of restoring balance to our supply-short land market. After the provincial government has consulted with municipalities in order to establish areas where residential development is desirable and acceptable, Ontario Housing should build the necessary trunk services for water and sewage as a public utility. These services should be sold to municipalities in much the same way as Hydro sells electricity. The province should guarantee loans for capital expenditures as it does with Hydro, and Ontario Housing Corp. should be required to repay its debts from the revenues accrued.", "The cost to Ontario taxpayers of such a land servicing programme would therefore be minimal, but housing prices would be substantially reduced. A government-run land servicing programme would also permit more orderly growth throughout the province. Specifically it would allow the provincial government to decentralize the growth pressures which are contributing to urban sprawl in southern Ontario by providing inexpensive land in eastern and northern Ontario.", "Of course, a co-ordinated programme to decentralize growth must also include appropriate stimulation for industrial development and employment opportunities in the north and the east. It goes without saying and it has been said by government representatives on many occasions. But we have got to the point, surely, where government policy must be something more than simply the expression of pious hopes. There are these lands held in public ownership in various parts of the province, such as Brantford, Waterloo, certainly here in Malvern, and with projects beginning elsewhere. It is surely time for the government to decide on the development of services for those areas and to proceed with making the serviced lots available. If in the Ontario housing programme it is deemed necessary that the so-called Home Ownership Made Easy programme would apply, the government could in fact not only service the land but build the houses. In most cases the serviced lots should be made available to private enterprise and individuals who want to buy the serviced lot and build their own homes.", "Inexpensive housing forms including mobile and factory-produced homes must be encouraged. In five years of experimentation with system building of houses in the United States costs have been reduced by 36 per cent despite rising labour and building material prices. When I refer to building material prices we in this House should move to reduce the sales taxation on building materials and, of course, the taxes levied at the federal level as well; seven per cent here, 12 per cent in Ottawa. It would give a substantial stimulus to the building programme and, I would trust, it would indicate a reduction in the costs of housing if these taxes were moderated or removed or if, in fact, an equivalent grant were made to the builders or purchasers of new homes.", "The main source of the saving is in reduced assembly time with regard to some of the new forms of building, such as the system building that have been used in various areas of the United States. The standard production methods and close supervision of mass production enable system builders to provide high quality housing at low cost.", "One of the most impressive system building programmes is in Akron, Ohio, where $17,000 two-storey townhouses were renting a few months ago for from $47 monthly for a two-bedroom unit to $54 monthly for four bedrooms. That is not a subsidized housing programme. The unions associated with the building programme have endorsed the programme because parts are produced in union plants and on-site assembly is done by union workers.", "In some areas where the programme has been attempted those people who must do the work have objected because they have felt that it cut into their own livelihood, but such is not the case under these circumstances.", "The building codes of most Ontario cities bar such housing not because of structural specifications but because of house and lot size restrictions. Municipalities demand oversized lots, wide streets and highest quality services because of their heavy reliance on property taxes as a source of revenue.", "Low-cost housing on small lots means lower property tax returns. Kitchener has recently relaxed its high standards on some lots and other municipalities should be encouraged to do likewise.", "In our party we recognize the high accommodation costs as a serious problem and unlike the Conservative government we have a policy to solve that problem. The government’s refusal to act in the past has precipitated a crisis housing situation in this province. Strong action, including restrictions on foreign investment in land, steep taxes on speculative land profits, a government-run land servicing programme and steps to reduce residential construction costs are urgently required in order to avoid further housing price increases.", "I would say to you, Mr. Speaker, that housing price increases cannot be avoided, if the plan put forward in the Speech from the Throne is the only basis for government action. The increase in the amount of money that is available to service land is not sufficient to make an impact in the communities of this province and is substantially inadequate, in fact, to be even anything more than more of the same. I would say to you, Mr. Speaker, that the matter is a principal and priority concern to all of us in this House during this session.", "I wanted to congratulate the new Minister of Housing on his appointment. I had felt frankly that, being a trade economist and a tax expert, his usefulness, if he were to be brought into the cabinet, might perhaps be in the revenue area rather than as Minister of Housing. He said himself that he can’t drive a nail straight, but I don’t suppose that is going to detract from his applying in the best possible way the moneys made available by the Treasury and, more particularly, from applying the policies that are agreed upon by this government. But the best minister cannot do anything if, in fact, the money is not available nor if the principles behind the policy are not adequate to meet the needs.", "As a matter of fact, we are concerned about the cabinet changes that the Premier announced just a few days ago. We wish the best for the new ministers. We want to question them as closely and as strictly as we can as their policies are enunciated. But we look at the new Minister of the Environment (Mr. W. Newman). A man in his position is going to have considerable problem in his own constituency. The land of Cedarwood is being assembled and many of the citizens in that area feel that they have been dealt with unfairly by the government in that hearings on expropriations have been cancelled by order in council or not permitted under the provisions of the statute.", "Pickering airport is being built there. The new Minister of the Environment is in a good position surely, if he has the courage of the convictions he has stated so ably in the past that we don’t need an airport in that location, to say to his colleagues in the cabinet that a statement of policy from the government should go forward to the government of Canada saying, “We do not want the airport there. It is the view of this province that those plans should be cancelled. If we, in fact, are going to be meeting the long-range requirements of the community of Ontario, then the airport should be moved elsewhere.”", "You say where? I would say on to the Canadian Shield. It does not have to go in any location where it is going to be that close to this particular centre, because I don’t believe we are going to need its facilities until 1985 or maybe 1990. I believe that the airport should be cancelled and so does the Minister of the Environment. Why does not the government, following the statements made by its own minister in his former private member’s capacity, simply tell the government of Canada that it does not meet the needs of this province and see that it is adjusted accordingly?", "While there has been some land assembly go forward, there appears to have been something less than a total commitment to the Pickering site. The complaints about it are valid and come from many sources. It is true -- and the Prime Minister said it in Toronto just a few days ago -- that if one cancels Pickering it is going to put additional pressures on Malton. That is one of the things that must be taken realistically into consideration. By so saying, I mean to meet the needs of the air transportation requirements, but also politically, because the people living around Malton get awfully sick of hearing those planes and some of the low-flying ones may even fly up as far as Brampton." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Ask the member for Etobicoke (Mr. Braithwaite) what he thinks about an expansion there." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "We are not talking about an expansion there. We are saying that that can serve the needs of the community until 1980 to 1985, perhaps to 1990." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Without an expansion?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Now is the time to cancel the new Pickering airport and see that it is located further from Toronto, without using class 1 and 2 land." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "The member’s colleague is laughing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "There is no possible way that the Premier can have it both ways. I am simply pointing out to you, Mr. Speaker, the problem that his own new Minister of the Environment is going to have in meeting the problems that he finds in his own constituency. He has got Cedarwood, the Pickering airport, enormous new garbage dumps, the proposal for Highway 407, the new sewers and service road that are going to come up and angle in to service the north part of the Metro area -- all right in the home farming fields of the Minister of the Environment.", "He has problems, there is no doubt about it. He is an honourable man and a man with ability, but the Premier has given him an assignment which is going to crack him up. He will not be able to continue to represent his own people while imposing the environmental threats in his own community under those circumstances. There is going to have to be a change in policy and I would suggest to you Mr. Speaker, that the Premier should announce a change in policy in connection with the airport.", "Now, the Premier is prepared to make policy changes. He has made that clear. As a matter or fact, I am wondering what he is going to do with the situations that come in upon him on the development of new communities in the Province of Ontario.", "I have talked about this already for a moment, but I would like to say this that in Norfolk county where we have imposed a new regional government, the decision has been made by the experts advising the Treasurer that a large new community with a population of 250,000 is going to be required in what is now called the city of Nanticoke; and yet the Treasurer has said that he is going to demand the right to make the decision on its location, but he hasn’t made the decision on its location.", "Now, I just ask you to consider, Mr. Speaker, the dislocation that brings to the land market of the Norfolk and Haldimand area, that the land is being optioned at ever increasing and spiralling rates, the Treasurer has frozen all the land, so that it is very difficult, if not impossible, to get a severance and a building permit. The most minor building permit must be approved from the Treasurer’s office. That’s the situation we are in.", "It has been that way now for well over a year and the time surely has come when we have had a sufficient, it’s not a cooling off period because things have heated up, but a sufficient period of time for the Treasurer and his planners, and he designates himself as the chief planner for the province, to make a decision on those areas; and there have been resolutions from the local councils calling for the decision to be made.", "If the Treasurer decided in his wisdom that it would be better that the decision be made by the local people, then let him so announce and indicate to the local authorities that their decision, after sufficient consultation with the experts available to them, must be made within a certain period of time. But we cannot continue to delay, we cannot continue to hold large parcels of land in the name of Ontario Housing, without development, in communities where serviced land is in short supply. It is obvious that the government policy in this regard is completely inadequate.", "Now, another new cabinet minister is the former parliamentary assistant to the Treasurer, who is now the Minister of Revenue (Mr. Meen). Probably this minister is more of an authority on the intricacies of regional government than any one now in the Legislature. It seems to me that to direct his abilities into the Ministry of Revenue is a strange decision indeed; it seems surely that with regional governments just now coming into operation in various parts of the province, it would have been a much more effective decision indeed if this member, if he was going to be taken into the cabinet at all, would have had some general supervisory responsibility pertaining to these regions.", "This is a matter that is difficult to explain. He becomes Minister of Revenue, unless perhaps that is a training ground for the Treasurership of the province, which we are told is going to be vacated by the present Treasurer some time in the not too distant future. The situation under those circumstances might be different except for this, that during the last two years, since the report of the Committee on Government Productivity was accepted, the Treasurer has been also the minister of municipal affairs, but in the recent changes the member for --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. F. Guindon (Minister of Labour)", "text": [ "Grenville-Dundas ." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "For Grenville-Dundas (Mr. Irvine), was designated Minister without Portfolio with special responsibilities for municipal affairs. In other words, we are moving once again towards a ministry of municipal affairs and a very proper move that is, without the Premier making the decision that in fact the recommendations of the Committee on Government Productivity were wrong. They have been inappropriate in our experience of two years’ association with policy ministers and the work they are supposed to do. The policy minister experiment has been a failure and this is apparent in decisions made by the Premier pertaining to the changes that have come about.", "So it seems, Mr. Speaker, that the cabinet changes were made only for political purposes, to remove from the Premier pressure applied by the cabinet itself, through the conflicts of interest, and the awarding of contracts without tender -- the scandals associated with the decisions made by cabinet ministers. It seems that somehow or other the Premier would try to show that he had a new group of people who didn’t do things like that.", "Unfortunately, it appears that he is sticking with the concepts that have made it difficult if not impossible for the cabinet to make the kinds of decisions that are necessary. So he simply goes on with the political exigencies that we were treated to in the Speech from the Throne. For example, his sudden interest in northern affairs.", "Along with his report from his polling experts that he was down to 28 per cent in the support of the people of Ontario, they must have told him that he was dead in the north and that while he has been steadily losing support for many years there, it looks now as if the support is down to rock bottom. So you can’t blame him for making an effort to attract once again interest of the taxpayers, the thinking citizens of the north.", "You know, when you travel up in the north, the first question you are asked is, “What do you think about a separate province up here?” I think the idea is a bad one, but it indicates clearly the alienation of the people living in that part of the province who think they have been forgotten by big government at Queen’s Park, that their decisions are dictated from the offices and the bureaucracy down here.", "So what did he do? The Speech from the Throne calls for a feasibility and engineering study for a road link to James Bay through Moosonee. The Brunelle highway." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "To Moonbeam?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Since the minister is applauding so strenuously, I have a feeling that it really doesn’t matter what the feasibility study says. If the member for Cochrane North (Mr. Brunelle) stays in the cabinet, they are going to get the road." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. R. Brunelle (Minister of Community and Social Services)", "text": [ "That’s right. The study is not necessary because we know right now it is justified." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. G. Dixon (Dovercourt)", "text": [ "Tell them, Rene.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I am sure the Premier consulted with the Minister of Community and Social Services and the Premier, in his good judgement, thought at least they should look into the feasibility of it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "Just for the publicity aspects." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "The nice thing about it is that there are so few residents in Moosonee that the politics of it don’t necessarily intrude. The people up there undoubtedly want a road and they want to be able to get out in some way other than on the Polar Bear Express, which is usually crowded with politicians going up there to see what they are doing in Moosonee this week." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman (Windsor-Walkerville)", "text": [ "With their free passes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "With their free passes, right. And the only alternative is to phone up the member for Cochrane North and see if they can get on the government plane or to borrow somebody’s snowshoes.", "The road link in my view is a reasonable sort of thing and I regret very much the fact that in the future it means that probably we won’t have to depend on the Polar Bear Express as much as we have, because some of my more enlightening experiences in politics have been associated with travel on that train as we went through northeastern Ontario to talk with municipal officials and other experts as to what the future might hold for that great part of Ontario.", "The second point is the decision has been made to investigate the rebuilding and the widening of Highway 17 between Sault Ste. Marie and Sudbury. When the announcement of the new minister of highways was made, I felt that the government had said among themselves, “Well, nobody down here wants roads, so we might as well spend the money in the north.” I think that is a great idea. The idea of improving road transportation in northern Ontario is obviously not going to solve all the northerners’ problems, but I would suggest to you very specifically, Mr. Speaker, that it is going to take more than the widening of Highway 17 and ensconcing the minister of highways in Sault Ste. Marie to convince the northerners of the good faith of this government. After all the promises made at the time of elections and the breaking of the promises at the time of the distribution of the highways budget, they are going to have to see the concrete, not just the surveyors. They are going to have to see the concrete before it can be believed.", "I would say to the government quite specifically that it might as well make the commitment now, as I really think is necessary, to make Highway 11 four lanes wide all the way to North Bay; to make Highway 69 four lanes wide to Sudbury and then on to the Soo. Anything less than that is not going to meet the needs of that expanding part of the north. I am not quite prepared to say that the ministry is going to have to make it four lanes around the top of Lake Superior, although I suppose some day, that may come. I hope it does not; I think it would be substantially regrettable. I spent some years living in Sault Ste. Marie and I could never understand why, when one went over to Michigan, there were good road travel links to the southern part of that state but if one decided to travel in Canada one would have to get in line behind the trailers and the trucks along Highway 17 and make one’s way in very dangerous driving situations down into the southern and eastern part of the province.", "The northerners, of course, while they want good road links to the southern and eastern part of the province are just as concerned with good road and transportation links between northern centres. That is surely where the initiative of the new Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Rhodes) must be brought to bear as well.", "So we go on with the promises for the north. Four more communities in northwestern Ontario will receive air services. Good. I think norOntair has been a good experiment. I haven’t had the opportunity to fly the line of the purple goose -- is that it? I think that is it -- but it seems to me that the Twin Otters are excellent planes and that the future of quick communications between the northern towns is going to rest on their utilization.", "On improvement of certain existing airports I hope the minister is going to do something with the one in Geraldton. I don’t know whether or not the minister’s plane gets down there regularly but obviously that is one of the communities which should be treated to expanded facilities. I think it would have been better if the communities which were going to be served under this programme had been specifically named in the Speech from the Throne.", "Studies regarding the establishment of a port facility in the James Bay area; that is interesting. In the long run the building of the ONR or, as it was then called, the Timiskaming and Northern Ontario Railroad -- is that the correct name? -- was to give us a salt water or a sea water outlet or seaport for this province. Actually it was extremely disappointing right from the start. The minister is aware of the shallowness of James Bay and the area of Hudson Bay most readily accessible so I don’t know whether this feasibility study means building a wharf six miles long or doing dredging to bring the ocean boats right up into Moosonee or what it is. The feasibility study has been done before, admittedly when technology was not quite so far advanced." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle", "text": [ "That was for Moosonee itself. The intention is to go further north into deeper water." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "The idea of having a seaport here is an interesting one and one that we will follow with a great deal of interest.", "The other major statement was a power line to Moosonee. Electricity comes within 200 miles of it now, I believe, the last time we were up there. Is that not correct?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle", "text": [ "About 150 miles, along the rapids." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "That should not be a serious problem, indeed, in the community which we hope is going to grow and expand as it serves a larger and larger area and will have the benefits of a good power source.", "On local autonomy, northern communities will have the opportunity to establish local community councils. In other words, some of the friends of the government, who have been chairmen of the improvement districts without benefit of election through all these years, may find themselves subject more directly to the wishes of the people in the communities they have been serving in their own inimitable styles over these many years." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "Does that include Moosonee?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I don’t know whether it includes Moosonee; I presume that it would. It will include White River and many other communities which we have talked about from time to time.", "The government has said “Yes, that’s what we are going to do for the north. We are going to build some roads. We are going to study the feasibility of certain other programmes. We are going to improve a couple of airports. We are going to expand some money to see that the airplanes will get into four more towns.”", "I don’t think that will be sufficient. Appointing a minister of highways from the north might, in fact, improve the situation quite a bit because I have a feeling we are going to see the earthmovers on Highway 17. I’m not so sure that is going to convince the people in the north that they can look once again with some confidence to the Conservatives because I believe the Conservative Party has lost any right to the confidence of the northerners after all these years.", "After all, they have not taken the steps, other than by way of changing the name, to indicate that the Northern Ontario Development Corp. is going to have an independent stance. We, as Liberals, believe that on the board of the NODC should be all of the elected members from the north. The former Premier used to criticize me and say, “You are setting up a northern parliament. You are a separatist.” Of course, I reject that. I simply say that in the north, probably more than in any other place, there is the feeling that when a member is elected he has something more to do than simply serve time and apologize, in the case of the Conservatives, for the government’s inactivity.", "I would like to see the board of NODC composed basically of the elected members without regard to their political party. If the government wanted, through its undoubted rights by the Lieutenant Governor’s order in council appointment, to add to it certain representatives of the community otherwise I would have no objection. Only if it does that can NODC be seen to have a stance and status independent of the experts who are usually seconded from Bay St. when they are looking for a job and pressure comes on them, perhaps unduly, in the ordinary course of their careers.", "I think, further, that the government should make the definite commitment to move the head office establishment of at least the Ministry of Natural Resources out of Toronto and up to the north. This, more than any thing else, would be an indication of good faith -- that the ministry which deals almost more than any other -- I would say more than any other -- with northern affairs is going to have its head office there. After all, I understand the minister has at his disposal 48 planes, probably more than that now; all the planes, in fact, which are not in use by other people who have access to them. It would enable the minister to come down for whatever is necessary, to attend cabinet meetings or whathaveyou here.", "The establishment of the ministry must be in the north. I think there should be something more than an ad hoc paving programme indicating what the basis of the government’s policy is in communication. There should be a reference to Highway 11 to North Bay, and 69 to Sudbury, just as there was to Highway 17 from Sudbury to Sault Ste. Marie. The government could put a reasonable timetable on it and say there is going to be a commitment of a certain percentage of the highway’s budget so that the people in the north know it means business.", "Surely it is not going to be the same as it has been in eastern Ontario where one gets the commitments and the promises, election after election, about road building. At one stage the Conservatives even appointed George Gomme, an easterner, as minister of highways and the people in the east thought, “Now we will get our roads.” But no, the roads were not built. The surveyors went out one more time; the flags were put up; the people found, as they were driving in the summer, that they had to be careful because there were so many surveyors around there that the usefulness of the highways was substantially reduced.", "Now we find that the alternative of 17 down there is not going on that alignment at all; it is going on a completely new alignment and very properly so. The government is going to build a little bit more of it and I have a feeling that when we get to election year it could be that the Minister of Labour and maybe the Minister of Housing and the Premier himself will go down and cut a ribbon opening yet a few more miles. One might even be able to drive from Ottawa right through to the Quebec border, but that remains to be seen.", "I just say, to my regret, that sort thing seems to have worked in eastern Ontario until now but it is not going to work again. The government is going to get the surprise of its life when it actually opens the road and finds that the people in eastern Ontario are voting, for the first time in a lone time, against the Tories and for the Liberal alternative.", "The same is true in the north.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "And the same is true in the north. It will not be enough even for the new Minister of Transportation and Communications to go up there and put the flags in the ground and hire the surveyors to go up and down Highway 17." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. H. Jessiman (Fort William)", "text": [ "Don’t hold your breath." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I notice that the member for Fort William is joining in the debate. There have been no specific promises about new roads up there but, of course, most of the people in his area I guess are content that their member has been made chairman of the Ontario Northland Railway. Maybe they feel that that is sufficient recognition. But I’ll tell him this, that being chairman of the Ontario Northland Railway is not going to save the political bacon of either the chairman or the Conservative Party in northwestern Ontario.", "A very case in point came forward yesterday. Sure we are delighted that a new mill is going to be located, not in the hon. member’s riding, of course, which is largely an urban riding, but up there in Kenora where the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Bernier) is more and more considering it to be his private fiefdom. We can’t help but remember that the same company that is expanding to the tune of what? -- $250 million -- is the one which under government supervision was permitted to pollute the whole Wabigoon river system and the English river system in such a way that it will never be cleaned up. There will never be the opportunity for sport fishing there and to eat the fish. The Indians living in the area have had either to be moved off or be given permanent food payments so that they would not eat the fish. Almost every tourist outfitter in the Wabigoon and English river system has either moved out or gone broke because sport fishing is no longer permitted. Now that’s the government record in northwestern Ontario! This is the situation.", "The chairman of the ONR was in the news just a few weeks ago. He had sold a parcel of land to Ontario Housing and made a large profit on the transference of that property. I know the property well. I know that the chairman of the ONR did business there. As a matter of fact, I have rented a car on one occasion from his very business premises. But for the local --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Jessiman", "text": [ "On a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Let the member wait until I have finished before he gets riled." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I was going to say he didn’t want to sell it to the OHC." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Jessiman", "text": [ "I would just like to correct the Leader of the Opposition in the statement that he just made that I had sold the property to the Ontario Housing, which is a complete and utter lie, and he knows it to be so. I sold the property to an individual in the north riding." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please. I think a better choice of words could have been used." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Jessiman", "text": [ "And I’d like him to retract that statement right now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "It was just an error." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order please. I think the hon. member should change that one word in his protest.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "He is talking to the member for Fort William. He used an intermediary between him and the OHC." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I’m talking to the member for Fort William. I think a better choice of words could have been used. Would you do so, please?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Jessiman", "text": [ "May I say it is an untruth then, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Well, let’s look at the situation. The land that the hon. member who is objecting so strenuously owned is now in the hands of Ontario Housing Corp. Is that correct?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "No, it is not. They backed out on him." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Jessiman", "text": [ "On a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker, possibly the Leader of the Opposition should get his facts straight, which he seldom does." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "All right. Surely, Mr. Speaker, the point is this: that the member for Port Arthur -- I mean Fort William, the member for Port Arthur is another person --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "He is not a land speculator." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "-- and I was talking about him earlier -- the member, as chairman of the Ontario Northland Railway, has a responsibility surely to concern himself with the development of northwestern Ontario. He’s got to concern himself even further with the pollution record of the government that he is supporting. Surely as a member as well he’s got to concern himself with unconscionable land profits that he himself in the land business in the area apparently has been making. How can he continue to expect to command the support of the taxpayers and the thinking citizens in his own area?", "I’m simply saying to you, Mr. Speaker, that in northwestern Ontario, as in northeastern Ontario and the eastern part of the province, no amount of government promises of the type that have been put to use in this speech is going to save the political bacon of the Conservative Party.", "The people have lost confidence in the party and in their representatives in those areas. A few more miles of road might have done it back in 1963, 1959 or in 1955; but it won’t do it any more. I am putting to the government a specific alternative that it is up to them to make a clear commitment as to what they are going to do for transportation, road transportation and otherwise.", "Let’s have a commitment on Highway 69, Highway 11 and Highway 17; let’s have a commitment as to which communities are going to be served by the expanding services of norOntair. Why, surely, are we not using the facilities that are presently government-owned to equalize the cost of living in the north?", "Before the last election they equalized the cost of beer. The time surely has come when, as a matter of policy, the government says that it is going to provide the same cost of living for the necessities as are experienced in other parts of the province, and that as a matter of policy we must surely remove that invisible wall that separates the northern part of the province from the rest of Ontario; that they must not feel alienated and that government policy has been substantially inadequate in this regard, as it has been in others.", "Well -- it is 20 after 12 -- Mr. Speaker, I want to deal quite specifically with the matter of regional government as we are experiencing it following the passage of certain statutes a year ago and three years ago. The concern with the cost of living is directly related to the cost of government programmes, and you are aware, Mr. Speaker, living near the location of a newly created regional government programme, that it doesn’t take long for the spending machines to go into operation.", "I would just like to speak briefly about what our experience in regional government costs has been. In Ottawa-Carleton the cost of running the cities, villages and townships in 1968, the year before regional government was imposed, was $59.5 million. In 1969, with regional government just having been started, costs increased by 36 per cent in one year to $81.3 million.", "When regional government was introduced to Niagara in 1970, the increase in municipal government spending was even steeper. The expenditures grew by 45 per cent, from $39 million to $56 million in the very first year. Increases in the cost of the regional portion of municipal government in Niagara have continued since 1970. In the four years of regional government in Niagara the annual cost of operating the regional municipality, exclusive of the local governments, has jumped 85.3 per cent, from $22 million to $41 million. In Ottawa-Carleton, the regional municipality spending has risen 88 per cent in five years.", "I thought it was important that I put those figures before you, sir, because we find in the case of Haldimand-Norfolk, where regional government was imposed by Act of this Legislature just a few months ago and where the regional government will take its first authority within a few weeks, that already there have been expensive decisions made.", "For example, the regional council has not been able to decide on a site for the seat of government. Half of the government will be located in Cayuga, formerly in Haldimand county, and the other half in Simcoe, that is the former county seat of the county of Norfolk. It seems to me this is typical of the problems of the imposition of the new type of government. Certainly the government has given the decision to the locally elected regional council as to where the capital will be, and they have made a decision that I suppose was forced upon them by the views of the two separate communities, and that is to have two capitals.", "Now the only people who are going to benefit from this will be the people who are collecting the bills for Bell Canada. It is typical of what has happened in other regional government programmes. The costs escalate rapidly and out of all control.", "The figures that I have put before members, resulting from an inquiry into these costs in the Ottawa area, and also in the area of Niagara are just an indication of what we can expect in the other regional government situations. There is the high cost and, even worse than that, the chairman is imposed from Queen’s Park and the government at the local level is insulated from the needs of the public community by the large bureaucracy that is established under these circumstances.", "It seems strange indeed that the government has not been able to take advantage of the experience -- and it has been a bad experience -- in the two regional governments now established for a number of years, to ensure that if we are going to have an increase in the number of regional governments that it is not going to result in the tremendous increase in local costs that has been a part of this particular experience.", "Now, this has been characteristic of what the government has done during the last four years. Since John Robarts gave up the Premiership and we had a surplus of $150 million, our deficits year by year have been -- well, this year it is substantially over $400 million; last year $36 million. The first year that the member for Peel North was the Premier it was $624 million, and actually the year in which he came into office, it was a $136 million deficit. In other words, since he took over the control of our government, our deficit has increased by $1.6 billion, compared with the last Robarts’ year when the surplus was $150 million. I think that this is an indication which has been established in many respects by policies in regional government and in other areas of new government initiatives, that it seems to have been absolutely careless of the cost.", "Now, we feel also that the policies associated with regional government have been unnecessarily centralizing and you need only read the reports that were put out by the Ontario Economic Council two weeks ago to see that that’s borne out by some independent opinions. I want to quote very briefly from report No. 5 by Lionel D. Feldman, from page 41, where he says: “Few meaningful functions are being left to the local governments to perform unilaterally and therefore less remains in substantive terms to be decided by local councils. If this prognosis is valid, then the future is dim for effective local government as fewer and fewer people will be willing to stand for election to perform non-important tasks. If the transfer of functions persists unabated, if decentralization is taken to mean not a devolution of responsibility but the placement of offices of the province outside Toronto with consultative powers only -- or as one wag has recently said: ‘Regional offices in Ontario today are given only the power to say no’ -- then the future of the reorganized municipalities is bleak.”", "I notice that the Treasurer took exception to the statement. He said that the statement; from the Ontario Economic Council was; untrue, and yet this is the way it is seen by the people living in the communities. I want to quote from the report once more: “What this study demonstrates is that since the beginning of the 1960s, there has been a consistent approach to the way in which provincial authorities have viewed local government. There appears to be a considerable degree of scepticism on the part of senior government people as to the inherent capacity of the municipalities to achieve goals and objectives.”", "Now, what he is saying there in his best language is that the ministers’ and the senior government officials believe the people at the municipal level are incompetent to establish goals and then work toward achieving them. This is a feeling that we have been aware of for many years, somehow or other, through the various ministers of municipal affairs and lately the Treasurer -- the idea that all of the knowledge and the ability lies here at Queen’s Park; that the municipalities exist only as somehow a window-dressing operation for the expenditure of some public, funds.", "There is a basic difference in philosophy that I want to put forward and I suppose, it is essentially that the elected people in municipal councils and in school boards and in hospital boards and otherwise have the right to make mistakes. I suppose you can say that the York board has made a mistake in recent months and it is all right here to criticize boards if they so do, but surely we must realize that if local government is going to have any significance in the future, we must abandon the process where the government has to appoint, from the centre, the chief of these local governments; that we must see that the conditions are removed from the grant programme instead of putting on more and more of these conditions; that we must see that the people, in planning responsibilities, can establish their own goals and essentially have the powers to fulfil them; that the time has come, surely, when the Minister of Education will not have day-to-day budgetary controls over every school board in the province; that the Minister of Health (Mr. Miller) does not have day-to-day budgetary control over every hospital board; that the minister who designates himself as the chief planner does not have the power to veto or, in most cases, simply approve or delay every planning decision in the province.", "This is an indication that has come strongly from the report by Mr. Feldman. He ends up with just a very short quote indeed. It comes from the last sentence in his report on page 44 and I quote: “The future of effective local government in Ontario rests on shaky foundations.” I think that he is right, I believe that the people are concerned more and more with their local rights in the provision of government services. I am not prepared to say that the Treasurer, or the Minister of Health, or the Minister of Education has all the knowledge and I’m not prepared either to say that local officials can’t make mistakes. I’m simply here to say that they have the right to make those mistakes in the structure of a reformed government that, in fact, would be a partnership between the municipalities in the province rather than the sham which we have been treated to in recent years.", "I want to just end this section of my remarks, Mr. Speaker, by quoting from a letter signed by Mr. Jack Nolan of 1096-10th St. E., Owen Sound. I quote from his letter:", "“Dear Mr. Nixon:", "“I am writing to you on behalf of the Boxter Ward Ratepayers Association, Georgian Bay township.", "“We have just received our new assessment notice under the regional municipality of Muskoka. We are shocked beyond words. It would appear that assessments are up to fantastic figures and the taxes on these new rates will be up, for some, 500 per cent. I, for example, was assessed at $1,360. Now the assessment is $49,600.”", "I interrupt here to say that, of course, the assessment per se does not set the tax rate, but he goes on to say:", "“At 10 mills tax rate, which the officials propose, my taxes go from $106 last year to about $496 this year. For this we receive nothing that we did not have before, which was nothing. The exception is that last year two garbage buckets were put at the end of our road for garbage to be placed in.”", "That is the end of the quote from the letter from Mr. Nolan.", "I think, better than anything else, it indicates what happens under regional government. We can collect the statistics which show that the percentages go up by fantastic rates year by year, but when the taxpayers themselves convey this sort of information, and you place yourselves in their situation where they are faced with a 500 per cent increase, not associated in any way with improved services, you realize that the regional government experiment has been a failure and that the costs associated with it are completely unconscionable and that the access to democratic process has been, if not removed, insulated to the extent that the people concerned feel themselves inadequately served.", "So I would say, Mr. Speaker, that the government’s fiscal policies and taxation policies have been as instrumental perhaps as much as anything else in increasing the cost of living in this province and adding pressure to the inflationary spiral. I remember the debate on the increase in the sales tax that took place in the House last spring, when it was brought to your attention, sir, and the attention of the Treasurer, that an increase in the sales tax from five to seven per cent, an increase of 40 per cent, would exert inflationary pressures and I submit to you, sir, that it has.", "But this is not the only matter that must concern us.", "I think we must accept, as members of this House, a great deal more responsibility for establishing an apparatus which will review and thereby control, at least in part, changes in prices in this province.", "Speaking in the budget debate when I first became the leader of the Liberal Party -- I think 1967 was the date of the speech -- I called for the establishment of a committee of the Legislature which would have the function of reviewing price increases in that sector of the economy which had the apparent powers, as a monopoly would have, to impose prices to which there is no alternative.", "At the time, my comments were sparked by changes in automobile insurance costs and it was indicated simply in the newspapers that the automobile insurance prices would go up by, I think that year, from seven per cent to 15 per cent. I felt, as did many others, that the increase was not warranted but there was no machinery established at the provincial level even to see if there was a justification.", "At the time, it was brought to public attention that the laws of Ontario give the government the right to roll back insurance costs if it sees fit. There are sections to the Insurance Act not proclaimed, having been on the statute books for many years, which would permit the government to do that if it saw fit. In reiterating the proposal for a committee of the Legislature which, in fact, would act as a price review committee, I am motivated in precisely the same way. I believe such a committee should deal with those aspects of the economy and the cost of living in this province over which the people have no control at all nor any alternative.", "For example, a week ago the Premier announced that he was approving an increase in the payments to the medical practitioners in Ontario under the OMA fee schedule of about seven per cent -- I believe it was 7.2 per cent -- with a further increase next year of something approximating four per cent. I felt at the time that we as members of the Legislature had been slighted; that we had not an opportunity to look at the justification and that the time had surely come when the province, through its Legislature, must establish a mechanism whereby something more than the Premier’s say-so or the say-so of a government minister is necessary for the prices to change. In the case of so many services and products, the government has no influence or chooses to exert no influence whatsoever.", "It is in this connection that I recommend to you, Mr. Speaker, the establishment of a prices review committee. In connection with the doctors’ situation we should require that the joint committee of doctors and government people come before the committee to give the justification which apparently was sufficient to convince the Premier.", "It is true the doctors have not had an increase in their payments since May 1, 1971. They have, I suppose, shown an admirable restraint in at least not requesting such increases but I think it is an indication of how seriously out of line those payments were three years ago. At least the doctors took this sort of a fee schedule holiday during that period of time when it is apparent their incomes went up substantially because of the greater utilization of their services by the people in the province.", "I would say that the establishment of such a prices review committee would deal not only with this sort of matter, and the insurance requirements for automobiles that we have already talked about, but other matters with specific provincial responsibility.", "The last thing I would like to do is to equate it in any way with the food price committee in Ottawa. I feel that committee has made some serious errors in conjunction with its attempts either to control these prices or to bring public pressure to bear on those increases.", "I think, for example, specifically of decisions taken by the Ontario Milk Marketing Board. I believe it would be in the public interest of the farmers and the people who are going to be consuming the products controlled by the Ontario Milk Marketing Board if in the future, when it makes the decision that prices will change -- and I expect it will decree a $10-a-cwt price for milk within the next short while -- that that board come before such a price review committee and give the justification.", "I’m always glad to hear the comments made by the Minister of Agriculture and Food in Ontario and his colleague in Ottawa, Mr. Whelan, when they indicate the tremendous increases in costs that farmers have to pay. How much better it would be, however, if the statistics associated with that were put before an appropriate committee in such a way that the justification, if it is there -- and in this case it is there -- would be known or knowable to all.", "Obviously it is not sufficient to deal with it as we have been dealing with it in the past simply by saying, as the Speech from the Throne says, that this is a federal responsibility and we will do everything we can to help.", "Number one, our rate of expenditures has got to be brought under control. Number two, we can have a prices review committee here which can substantially have an impact on the community and which is going to have a control function in the long run.", "The last point I want to refer to, Mr. Speaker, and I hope that I can complete this before the adjournment at 1 o’clock, has to do with the energy situation in this province. I was interested indeed to attend the energy conference held in Ottawa convened by the government of Canada and attended by all the premiers from across Canada. We were in a special position there because it is not often at a federal-provincial conference that the Premier of Ontario has to take the position of being a have-not province. But that was very much the case in Ottawa. Our Premier contributed little to the discussion other than to speak across the table to the Premier of Alberta, indicating we would be very interested in the future in buying their coal. This is quite an interesting matter indeed. I would suspect that in the next few years Alberta coal will be brought down here by rail transportation and Great Lakes transportation and have an important place indeed in our energy complex.", "I was quite interested in attending the conference to find that the comments associated with the financial distribution of the revenues of the special taxes associated with the export of oil did not come up for further discussion and review. As you are aware, Mr. Speaker, under the provisions of the federal initiative the Province of Alberta this year is going to receive almost half its provincial budget from the oil revenue tax sources. This means really that a special kind of a taxation Valhalla has been established by virtue of the fact that the provinces’ ownership of the natural resource was in no way questioned by any of the provinces or by the government of Canada.", "I was among those who really expected the government of Canada to say, under these particular circumstances, oil was a strategic resource and one which they were going to undertake the management of to the exclusion, or at least the partial exclusion, of the provincial governments. Such was not the case, and the revenues from the special oil export tax are now flowing to Alberta and will account for about half that province’s budget this year. During the next following years they will assume perhaps an even larger basis as long as the resource holds out.", "I was interested also to read reports of Mr. Lougheed’s budget statement made in the Legislature there, yesterday I believe, which indicates that those special revenues are going to be used, of course, for the development of the province, but also to make it even more of a tax haven than it has been -- no sales tax, no death duties and the revenues being paid from a resource that many people think of as a national resource.", "But if we are going to say that, we must then look at the resource in out own province, and that is specifically the uranium resource. Very brief reference was made to that in the Speech from the Throne.", "An indication was made briefly there that a review of the policy in that regard is going to be undertaken. We were concerned some months ago to hear that the ownership of the main uranium resource in this province had undertaken a sale amounting to $800 million of uranium and uranium oxide to Japan. Evidently this sale has not gone through, it is subject to federal review.", "But we in our own position are in a situation where the uranium resource may in the long run far exceed the value of the oil resources of Alberta. We have discussed previously the excellent record, although it is a short record, of the nuclear power installation at Pickering, which is the largest and safest nuclear electric plant in the world, according to the information provided to us.", "I was interested to receive a publication in the mail a few days ago which indicated something even more interesting. I wasn’t able to fathom it entirely, but it was actually a comparison of the costs of the production of electricity at Nanticoke, which is a coal-fired installation and a brand-new one -- therefore the most efficient one we have, I presume -- and the nuclear installation at Pickering.", "Comparing the cost of production on the basis of thousands of dollars per kilowatt hour, the figure is 6.21 for the production of nuclear energy at Pickering. This compares with a much larger figure at Nanticoke, amounting to 7.55 -- thousands of dollars per kilowatt-hour -- if the Nanticoke facility is to burn coal of a low sulphur content.", "In fact, we are looking at a nuclear facility that is in operation. It is not a pilot plant. It is a full-scale facility that produces power at the rate of 6.21 thousands of dollars per kilowatt-hour -- that is the way the comparison of the prices takes place -- compared with 7.55. Now, since those figures were arrived at, the costs of the energy sources, other than uranium -- that is, oil and coal -- must have escalated tremendously.", "The thing I found of greatest impact in the figures is that even at 1970 prices the cost of the production of electricity from nuclear sources was far more economical than the cost of production from coal and oil sources. Unfortunately we have made a substantial commitment to further coal utilization. Nanticoke is costing us $755 million to build. Lennox, which is supposed to burn only oil, is going to cost $373 million to build -- and is largely established now, although I don’t believe it’s been fired up.", "I’m quite interested in the decisions of Ontario Hydro in making such extensive and further commitments to fossil-fuel-fired energy sources when the statistics indicate that the nuclear source is not only competitive but substantially cheaper if the figures that I received are valid.", "The point really is that while we are concerned with the cost of oil and coal, the establishment and utilization of our nuclear resources must concern us very deeply indeed and in fact must be a matter of growing importance to us all. I would like sometime to hear from the minister responsible just what government policy is going to be in that regard.", "Well, Mr. Speaker, I have covered a number of points that it might well be possible to continue on another day but I have found that you, sir, are usually very reasonable indeed when we on the opposition benches want to put forward our views and our alternatives to government policy.", "I and my colleagues have perused the Speech from the Throne and we have found that it was a substantial disappointment. I have indicated clearly two areas where I think that the new policy enunciations are adequate, although we will examine the legislation associated with them carefully. I refer specifically to a prescription drug programme for pensioners and to the establishment of an environmental hearing board.", "There is a good deal more that should be said about that, of course, but on the examination of the speech we feel that it has been inadequate in a number of significant areas.", "Mr. Nixon moves, seconded by Mr. Breithaupt, that the following words be added to the motion:", "“This House condemns the government:", "“1. For its chaotic education policy which has led to the inability of teachers and school boards to reach a reasonable agreement and resulted in the dislocation of our education system;", "“2. For its failure to establish a prices review committee of the Legislature which, together with a reduction in provincial deficit spending, would exert control on inflation;", "“3. For its inadequate land-use policy which continues to permit the unreasonable loss of farm land to government and private development and the unnatural inflationary pressures of foreign land purchases without safeguarding Canadian ownership and interest;", "“4. For its failure to establish planning and land servicing programmes without which serviced-lot costs have escalated housing out of the financial reach of our residents.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would normally adjourn the debate and I am, obviously, going to adjourn the debate until Monday.", "Just before I do, since there are perhaps five minutes left and it isn’t inappropriate, I would just like to say a brief word about the demonstration that gathered in front of the Legislature today and about the York county dispute.", "That dispute is getting very, very much out of hand and that dispute is beginning to show a real negligence on the part of government to do something about it. I was one of those people who admired the intervention of the Minister of Education in the latter few days of January of this year as he made a herculean effort in some cases to resolve many of the outstanding disputes, and did so artfully and well on occasion, and I don’t begrudge commending him in a number of specific instances.", "I do not commend the conduct of the Minister of Education and the Premier in the York county dispute. The York county dispute has been allowed to continue, unjustifiably and illegitimately in our view, for several weeks without the Minister of Education saying three things publicly that had to be said:", "1. That the dispute is as much between the teachers and the administrator of the board as it is between the teachers and the trustees;", "2. That the trustees should be required to negotiate teacher-pupil ratios, and that that should be understood as a legitimate item for collective bargaining just as it is understood in Bill 275;", "3. That the intractable position of the board, the master-servant relationship which it vests in itself, is intolerable to the Minister of Education and to the Premier, and will not be allowed to continue, and therefore the Minister of Education in having laid it out publicly -- because there comes a point where the kids have been out too long and where clearly the situation has to be settled -- that he wants to settle it without compulsory arbitration, and I very, very much hope that will be possible, then what the Minister of Education now does, surely, is one of two things:", "Either he submits -- and my colleague from Wentworth (Mr. Deans) was discussing this with me earlier and he has some considerable expertise in the world of labour relations -- to both parties a government proposal, and I have no doubt in my mind that in considerable measure it would be acceptable to the teachers. If it were then rejected by the board, everybody in the world would see the board for what it is. Or alternatively, that the Ministry of Education settles with the teachers, itself using the withdrawal of the grants that it would normally give to the board, and then reinstate the trustees’ position for the rest of their term to be dealt with by the electors of York county as they see fit.", "But the time for the endless negotiations using Mr. Mancini of the Ministry of Labour has perhaps reached the point where the Minister of Education and the Premier himself intervene, make a recommendation -- or indeed, suspend the board in order to negotiate directly with the teachers. Anything to avoid compulsory arbitration.", "It serves some political purposes to have the strike prolonged so that we are faced with an extremity next week or the week after. I understand that. It serves no educational purpose, because the response around the Province of Ontario from the teachers would not be one anyone wishes to contemplate. I don’t think the cabinet wishes to contemplate it.", "But to have the public gradually turning on their teachers, to have the dispute move to a point of hostility and antagonism; that the board in a gesture of outright blackmail said -- “We will hire teachers afresh on March 15” -- to allow that to happen, to allow a board to behave in that way is beyond the pale, is insufferable. And you don’t have an education system in a county in such difficulty when everyone who has any eyes to see witnesses the behaviour of this board. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, there is absolutely -- as my colleague from Wentworth says quietly -- absolutely no mutual respect; and obviously that’s exactly what happens.", "Some of these boards, Mr. Speaker, behave in ways which are unimaginable. The Windsor separate school board searches for a route to the courts when they have signed a document accepting as binding voluntary arbitration. I mean that kind or behaviour on the part of a board is absolutely unbelievable. Somewhere the Minister of Education has to say to the public: “Certain things are acceptable, certain things are not -- and I am not going to play the pussyfooting game forever as Minister of Education in saying that they negotiate when I know one party is negotiating in bad faith from day one.”", "What we need is to have an offer made in good faith from the ministry, or the ministry deals with the teachers in good faith who are clearly willing to do so. Or, indeed, that the ministry point out to the public where it has gone wrong; but let it not disintegrate.", "I plead with minister not to let it disintegrate or, indeed, let us not have the kind of confrontation again that we had back in December. The collective bargaining process can work. There is no doubt in my mind it can work, if there is support for it. And that’s what is now lacking on the part of government. They are going through the motions without the kind of support that would resolve it.", "I move the adjournment of the debate and we will save the more pertinent remarks for Monday.", "Mr. Lewis, moves the adjournment of the debate.", "Motion agreed to." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on Monday we will continue with the debate and I think that I, without divulging any confidences, that I can tell the member who has taken his seat the minister and the Premier are both involved in that particular question at this particular time in seeking a solution.", "Hon. Mr. Winkler moves the adjournment of the House.", "Motion agreed to.", "The House adjourned at 1 o’clock, p.m." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. A. Grossman (Provincial Secretary for Resources Development)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, when the government of Canada announced that a pipeline would be necessary to move petroleum products to Quebec and the eastern markets, it stated its intention to build a pipeline across southern Ontario from Sarnia to Montreal." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)", "text": [ "Who won?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Several ministers have quite properly expressed legitimate concerns over the possible --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)", "text": [ "They gave in." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "-- adverse effects that such construction would have, particularly on the high quality agricultural lands that would be in the path of the pipeline. They have been joined by a number of concerned groups of citizens, and at least two federal cabinet ministers. The consensus of these concerned ministers, groups and individuals was that the pipeline should more properly be built across a more northern route from Sault Ste. Marie to the Chalk River area and thence through Quebec to Montreal.", "Since the ultimate responsibility for the construction of the line rests in Ottawa, we have pressed the government of Canada, the National Energy Board and the Interprovincial Pipeline Co. for information on these two alternative routes. Within the last two weeks, we have been able to obtain more complete information on these possible routes, which clarifies why the federal government has decided on a southern route from Sarnia to Montreal." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "This government gave in." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "These reasons include costs, potential reversibility of oil flow, and timing in terms of the urgent need for delivery of oil to Montreal and eastern Canada.", "On the last point, the most optimistic estimate of the federal government indicates that a northern route cannot be in operation before two years, and therefore no crude oil could flow through the line to Montreal before the 1976-1977 heating season. On the other hand, we have been led to believe by the government of Canada that if the southern route is undertaken, crude oil will be flowing to the east by the 1975-1976 heating season.", "I am tabling a fact sheet in connection with this statement which sets forth concisely the relative merits of both pipeline alignments, an analysis of which tends to justify the decision of the federal government. I might add here that we would support the federal government in its ultimate national goal of an all-Canadian pipeline.", "This does not mean, however, that we have abandoned the concerns which prompted us to question the southern route in the first place." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "And we’ll table the facts." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "We are concerned with environmental impacts in general --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Stop the flow of oil." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "-- and particularly with the disruption of food-producing lands in southern Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. A. J. Roy (Ottawa East)", "text": [ "I guess the Wafflers are with the government now." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "We realize the southern route will cause much greater inconvenience and dislocation to citizens and to personal property than the northern route. Our greatest concern is the potential losses of agricultural production along the rights of way." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "How many acres?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "We recognize that the pipeline from Sarnia to Port Credit, with the exception of some 10 miles, will be built on existing rights of way. Regardless of whether we are speaking of an existing pipeline right of way or of a right of way to be used in eastern Ontario, we do not accept the proposition that this can be accomplished without disruption to adjacent property.", "The casual observer may not be aware of the inconvenience which such construction brings to property owners in terms of fence removal, drainage disruptions, soil compaction, loss of food production during the construction period, reduced production in succeeding years and other factors. It is true that compensation is provided, but it is difficult to compensate in dollars for disruptions, many of which may not become apparent for months and even years after the actual construction period.", "Ontario farmers are concerned about this. We have had discussions with the Ontario Federation of Agriculture relating to these difficulties and I want to make it clear that the Federation of Agriculture is quite objective about the need for this utility. However, they are insistent that such matters as fair compensation, and the protection of individual rights be assured.", "These requests are valid, and we intend to intervene at the National Energy Board hearings for assurance, among other things, that competent inspectors be provided along the pipeline route to ensure that the concerns of property owners are met.", "We have noted in recent decisions emanating from the National Energy Board on pipeline construction in western Canada that environmental concerns, including agriculture, are to be given much greater attention in the future than has been the case in the past. We are encouraged by this new position of the National Energy Board and have submitted to the board for its consideration environmental guidelines for pipeline construction and maintenance." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "The government had better convince the farmers first that the southern route is necessary." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "These guidelines, which I am also tabling with this statement, are those currently being followed by the Ontario Energy Board for those pipelines which are under its jurisdiction.", "Energy is a vital need in these critical times, second only to our continuing dependence on food. Of all the material things which man utilizes these two are by far the most important. We want the citizens of Ontario -- indeed of all Canada -- to know that Ontario’s priorities will recognize these needs. We intend to maximize the food production potential in Ontario and we intend to seek security of energy supplies within a national context while paying due regard to the environment. We shall do everything in our power, therefore, to ensure that the construction of an oil pipeline through southern Ontario not conflict with our goals." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Did the minister prepare that or was it his predecessor, the member for Carleton East (Mr. Lawrence)?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "He surely went to somebody on that one." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, in order that members of the House will have a better understanding of the events which led up to the current situation, I would like to reply at some length to the question asked on March 6 by the member for Nickel Belt (Mr. Laughren).", "As the members of the House will recall, the Crown Employees Collective Bargaining Act, the Act which sets out the bargaining procedures for Crown employees, came into force on Dec. 29, 1972. The Act provides that where the parties are unable to effect an agreement the matters in dispute shall be decided by arbitration, and also provides in section 10(1) that:", "“A person shall be appointed by the Lieutenant Governor in Council for a renewable term of two years to be the chairman of every board of arbitration established under this Act.”", "The members may be interested in knowing that under the Act which governs federal public servants the chairman of the arbitration tribunal is appointed by the Governor in Council to hold office during good behaviour for such term, not exceeding seven years, as may be determined by the Governor in Council." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Civil servants have the right to strike in Ottawa but they haven’t got it here." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "His Honour Judge J. C. Anderson of Belleville, Ontario, whose experience in labour relations arbitration matters in both public and private jurisdiction covers a period of more than 30 years and who is generally regarded by unions and employers alike as an extremely competent and impartial adjudicator, was appointed as chairman of the Public Service Arbitration Board for the two-year period from Jan. 1, 1973, to Dec. 31, 1974.", "The members will recall that Judge Anderson had performed a similar service for the public service of Ontario since his first appointment under the Public Service Act as early as 1964. His most recent appointment was discussed with and was acceptable to the bargaining agents which represent Crown employees.", "It is acknowledged there is an honest difference of opinion as to the merits of ad hoc arbitration as opposed to the system where the chairman is appointed for a fixed term. But it is the very firm view of this government, and obviously the view of the federal government as well, that a chairman appointed for a fixed term who has an opportunity to become familiar with the issues that the parties bring before him is able to issue more satisfactory awards than a series of chairmen who may never be exposed to the problems more than once." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "There is no forced arbitration in Ottawa. It is chosen." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "Meetings for the purpose of renewing the agreement in effect for the academic staff of the colleges of applied arts and technology began in May, 1973. The Civil Service Association of Ontario and the faculty members of the bargaining team for the colleges were certainly aware that if any impasse were reached the matters in dispute would be referred to arbitration. They also would have known that the chairman of the arbitration board would be Judge Anderson.", "The members of the government find it extremely difficult to understand why a small group of faculty members waited until this late date to challenge the makeup of the board --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)", "text": [ "They don’t like compulsory arbitration." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "-- which, as I said earlier, is established by an Act of this parliament." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "They shouldn’t be subjected to it either." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "It is the feeling of this government that the Province of Ontario has been extremely fortunate in acquiring the services of a chairman with the experience and stature of Judge Anderson, and it is highly regrettable that his capacity to act in a completely impartial manner should be questioned in this way.", "Mr. Speaker, the government is completely satisfied with the manner in which the Public Service Arbitration Board is constituted. There is no doubt in the minds of the members of the government that the vast majority of the members of the academic staff of the community colleges are prepared to abide by the laws of this province and will not condone the actions of those few who are prepared to flaunt the law in an attempt to force the government to give in to their demands." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. F. Laughren (Nickel Belt)", "text": [ "It is a bad law." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. J. Bounsall (Windsor West)", "text": [ "Is picketing against the law?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "We trust that the Civil Service Association of Ontario, the bargaining representative of the employees involved, will accept its responsibilities to proceed with the arbitration hearings without delay." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)", "text": [ "This doesn’t help." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "The minister has just polarized it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "It’s too weak." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. W. G. Davis (Premier)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, in the Throne Speech there was some reference to northern Ontario and I was interested in some of the observations about certain visions. I don’t often comment on cartoons in papers but there was one in this morning’s Globe and Mail, and I hope there are some representatives from that paper here today." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "There always are." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "The Premier really worries about the Globe, doesn’t he?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The rest of the press can rest their pens." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Let the Premier tell us about his pulp mill." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "When they showed the great activity that one was envisaging for the north, they somehow neglected that part of the Throne Speech referring to billboards or there would have been fewer billboards in the cartoon itself.", "I think it is fair to state that the economic development of the north will not be predicated on that sort of thing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Not on that Throne Speech either." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur)", "text": [ "It won’t be predicated on that Throne Speech." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "However, in order to give some practical reality to what was said just two days ago, or within 48 hours, I wish to inform the members that the board of directors of Anglo-Canadian Pulp and Paper Mills Ltd. has given approval to the first phase of a plan to create two modern integrated forest product complexes in northwestern Ontario, and has authorized extensive feasibility studies for a second phase.", "The first phase will involve increasing the company’s sawmilling capacity from 34 million to 225 million board feet per annum by constructing sawmills at Dryden and in the Red Lake area. It will involve the installation of additional modern effluent control systems at the Dryden kraft mill, and the modernization and expansion of the Dryden kraft mill from 630 to 750 tons per day.", "By late 1975 the new sawmilling capacity will be phased in, as will the installation of a new effluent treatment system. The expansion of the Dryden mill is scheduled to come on stream in mid-1976.", "The first phase of this new programme will involve the expenditure of about $63 million.", "Last week the company announced the construction of a $2.5 million chloralkali plant at Dryden, using new non-mercury technology; this will meet the objectives of the Ministry of the Environment.", "A second phase, involving an investment of $190 million, would mean the construction of a second integrated forest products complex in the Red Lake area. If the preliminary studies are confirmed it would result in the construction of a 900-ton-per-day kraft pulp mill operating exclusively on sawdust, chips and fines from the company’s sawmills. In addition, during this second phase, the company would expand its sawmilling operations again, this time from 225 million to 500 million board feet a year.", "The company is also studying the feasibility of including a fibreboard plant and a speciality chemical plant.", "As part of phase two, the company has pledged a $500,000 performance bond to the government of Ontario in connection with its proposal to expand its existing timber limits for this phase with the understanding that construction must begin by December, 1976.", "If all projects prove feasible and are proceeded with there would be a total investment of $253 million resulting in approximately 1,800 new jobs by 1978 in the pulp mills, in the sawmills and in the woodlands. This would be double the number of people the company now employs in northwestern Ontario.", "The government intends to ensure that sufficient serviced housing lots are made available in the communities affected.", "These projects are consistent with the growth objectives outlined by the government’s Design for Development, northwestern Ontario region report. As members will recall, that report called for the creation of 4,000 to 5,000 new jobs in the pulp and paper industry in northwestern Ontario over the next 20 years. Today’s announcement, coupled with the announcement I made a few months ago with regard to the Great Lakes Paper Co.’s expansion plans, puts the achievement of that target well within reach.", "Close co-operation between Anglo-Canadian and the Ontario government will be maintained to ensure that all necessary efforts are made to protect the environment.", "I am sure all members of this House join me in welcoming this announcement, the results of which will bring a significant boost to the economy of the province, especially to the north." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Oral questions; the hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Further to the Premier’s statement, isn’t it true that Anglo-Canadian, which owns Dryden Paper, was responsible, through pollution, for completely destroying the game fishing in the Wabigoon River system and the English River system to such an extent that it can never be restored? Were they not under government supervision as far as environmental effects are concerned during those days as well?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, unlike the member for Brant this government lives in the future, not in the past. This announcement makes it very clear --", "Interjections by hon, members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)", "text": [ "The Premier has five ministers who were, formerly." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "The Premier has a short memory when it comes to problems." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "This announcement makes it very clear that all future expansion plans of Anglo-Canadian will meet the environmental requirements of this government. While the member for Brant may wish to be derogatory about that particular company, we are very optimistic --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Promise never to do it again." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "-- as to what it will achieve for employment and the general economic development of northwestern Ontario; and we are encouraged by their activity." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A supplementary: In connection with this tremendous investment of dollars in this expansion, which is obviously for the good of the north, can the Premier indicate to the House what steps are being taken to clean up the mess that was left there by the industry in the past?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, this matter has been debated. As I said in this particular statement, the company has already announced, and it is part of their planned programme for Dryden, that the mercury part of whatever the process was some time ago is to be completely removed. There wall be just no mercury pollution in their operation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "What about the damage done in the past? Answer the question." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. G. A. Kerr (Solicitor General)", "text": [ "Can’t stand progress." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I wanted to ask a supplementary question. It is Mr. Jones who is involved in Anglo-Canadian. As I recall he is one of the chief executive officers. Is he also a senior adviser, perhaps chairman of the advisory committee to the Minister of Natural Resources?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. L. Bernier (Minister of Natural Resources)", "text": [ "No." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "He is not an adviser to the Minister of Natural Resources?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. T. P. Reid (Rainy River)", "text": [ "He is on the committee." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "He stepped down last November." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "He stepped down in November? That answers my question.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Okay, that’s what I wanted. All right." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "He got what he wanted." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Just before the arrangement was concluded." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "What is the member’s point?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I just wanted to know." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I have a question of the Provincial Secretary for Resources Development. In line with the very proper concern, a new concern, for the protection of class 1 and 2 arable land, is he now prepared to follow up on what was a partial commitment given by the Premier yesterday in requiring that the expropriation hearings with regard to the hydro lines in the western part of the province be stood down, pending an objective assessment as to other locations for the line which would use only half as much class 1 and 2 land? Would the minister not indicate as much concern for projects under provincial jurisdiction as he very rightly shows for projects in the province under federal jurisdiction?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Well, Mr. Speaker, quite properly I think that question should be directed to the Minister of Energy (Mr. McKeough). I’m doing my best to stay within the terms of reference of a policy secretary. That is to co-ordinate matters which overlap various ministries." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)", "text": [ "Oh, that is what the terms of reference are." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "He will meet the fate of the member for Carleton East." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "This specific matter is one in which my colleague, the Minister of Energy, I’m sure would be glad --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "He will wither away before our eyes." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Do the members want information or don’t they? If they want the information, that’s where it belongs." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. R. Welch (Provincial Secretary for Justice and Attorney General)", "text": [ "Does the member want an answer?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A supplementary, if I may. The minister is fully experienced in these matters, wouldn’t he agree that the statement he made with remark to the protection of class 1 and 2 land with regard to the pipeline intrusion would in fact cover the hydro line, the Arnprior dam, the new town in Pickering and other provincial programmes which must surely be covered by the same umbrella of policy and not subject to the whim of the Minister of Energy?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I don’t know why the hon. Leader of the Opposition makes such an issue of it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "It is important." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "If the hon. member wants the information, and I’m directing him to the minister who would have, in my view and the government’s view, that specific information --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Is the provincial secretary going to be just like Allan Lawrence and have nothing to say about policy?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "-- why not get to the point as quickly as possible? I tell the member that that is the responsibility of the Minister of Energy, because the member has asked a specific question --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "If he keeps it up he will be fired. He will be fired just like the member for Carleton East." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Just a signpost." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "-- which relates to his ministry." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I’d like to redirect a question to the Minister of Energy, with your permission, sir." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "About time." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Could have saved three minutes because he has been ready." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "They will make a seat for the member for St. Andrew-St. Patrick next to the member for Carleton East." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. D. McKeough (Minister of Energy)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that yesterday we were dealing with three different hydro lines. Perhaps to put them in context we’ve talked about the Pickering to Nanticoke line, which I think --" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "At length." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "-- as the Premier said yesterday --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "That’s the one that goes through Peel." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "It just happens to be the riding he represents." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "And Halton, and Brampton." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "-- could be considered to be under some sort of an environmental impact review process at the present moment with Dr. Solandt, and we await that report.", "The second series of lines which was talked about yesterday was from the Bradley junction, which is near Bruce, to Georgetown. In that particular instance, selection of the correct route -- or the Tightest route, or the least damaging route, depending upon your point of view I suppose -- is going through the process. Hydro have undertaken a large-scale programme, which I may say is unprecedented in North America in terms of trying to involve the public --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Naturally." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "-- in that kind of decision-making process." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Another one of those." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Or in the world -- the western world." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "It will be, I think, some months before Hydro, through that process, comes to some conclusions. After that it will report its conclusions to the government and the government at that point will decide whether it is necessary to have some further environmental hearing a la Dr. Solandt or not. If there is obviously an environmental hearing board fully empowered at that point, then that would presumably be the route we would go rather than a royal commission under Dr. Solandt.", "What the member was talking about yesterday, and what I assume he is referring to today, is a 50-mile stretch of line from the Bradley junction to Seaforth, which line was selected as early as 1969 and which it is crucial to have in place, as I understand it, for the opening of the first unit at Bruce, which should take place -- if it is on schedule, and we have no reason to think that it won’t be -- in July of 1975, barely 14 months from now.", "Hydro went through what they then thought was a form of public participation and which for many, many years was thought to have been adequate -- although I think events have proven otherwise. This has been the route up to this point and they are now down to the point where it is necessary to expropriate some remaining properties.", "There are three different routes that we are talking about and there are others in the province which are in various stages. Obviously, the announcement in the Speech from the Throne concerning environmental impact and giving that authority to someone, depending on the disposition of the green paper, cannot be retroactive. The world can’t stop and turn the clock back, three and four and five years in some instances.", "Nevertheless, having said that, the good farmers of that particular area in Bruce were in to see the Minister of Agriculture and Food (Mr. Stewart) and his officials -- brought in, I think, in part by the member for Huron-Bruce (Mr. Gaunt) -- and they met with them. The Minister of Agriculture and Food arranged for those farmers to meet with the resources policy field and they did, I think three weeks ago today. Subsequently, a meeting has been held by the resources policy field with Ontario Hydro, with other government ministries and with concerned agencies of the government.", "The matter is under review, and hopefully within the next two or three weeks some definite position can be attained with regard to the position of the farmers and the route of that Hydro line. But we are not in a position to say what the ultimate disposition of the review will be at this moment." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Supplementary?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Since the other question related also to the Arnprior project, which is also affecting farm land and farmers, does the minister consider that there was an adequate environmental study and there was adequate information provided to local residents; or whether there was adequate public participation in the choice of that particular project and the way it was to be built? And if not, what will he do about it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Speaker, it was the subject of an exhaustive review. Obviously the member from Ottawa doesn’t think so and we might debate that at some other time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Huron-Bruce?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Gaunt (Huron-Bruce)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary to the minister. In relation to the Huron-Bruce power line, since this matter is now under review, would the minister undertake to talk to Ontario Hydro with respect to the rate of compensation for the farmers in that hydro line corridor, particularly in view of the fact that Ontario Hydro has been offering rates which are 50 to 75 per cent of current market value, as opposed to the rates being offered for the pipeline, which I understand are about 150 per cent of current market value?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "A difference in government, I guess." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "Well Mr. Speaker, I don’t know that it would be proper for me to talk to Hydro about individual properties. I think the member might well wish to speak about specifics to the member for Simcoe Centre (Mr. Evans), who is a member of the Hydro board of directors. I can only say this: In various situations which I have looked at from time to time, Hydro have had the benefit of outside appraisals. They have had the benefit of outside appraisals, for example, at Arnprior, and in that instance, I think, in one out of something like 12 properties the outside appraisal was higher than the offer which Hydro had made. I think in 11 cases the Hydro offer was higher than the outside appraisal, in some cases substantially higher.", "I recognize that if my property were being taken, or if I were going to sell a piece of property, I would have a very high view or a very inflated view -- inflated might be better than high, I think -- that view might be something higher than Hydro are prepared to offer.", "Hydro are in the position, of course, of attempting to provide power at cost to the people of Ontario. To do that, they have to not only provide fair prices but prices which are commensurate with market value. And if farmers or land owners anywhere in the province feel aggrieved and that they are not receiving a sufficient price, then we have in this province, thanks to the foresight of this government, one of the finest pieces of expropriation legislation that will be found anywhere." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Certainly in the eastern hemisphere!" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "We have a Land Compensation Board which will deal adequately and fairly with those being expropriated, and in the public interest as well; and I put my faith there." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a supplementary: In view of the fact that the farmers and others who have looked into the Arnprior project are not satisfied about the exhaustive review referred to by the minister, will the minister undertake to table soon in the House all of the relevant documents that underpinned the government’s review, including the engineering feasibility study prepared for the dam, which is now being denied to people who request it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "I think the hon. member could make some of the copies which he has received from Hydro available to his friends." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a supplementary: If I could have a direct answer to the question, will the minister undertake to table in this House documents referring to the Arnprior dam, which are now being denied to those who requested them directly from Hydro?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a number of documents have been tabled in the House and certain documents have been given to people who want them, and they are available for inspection. As far as I am concerned, the hon. member has got all he is going to get.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Ruston (Essex-Kent)", "text": [ "He’s over on the island!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "On a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Is the hon. member attempting to get more information?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "No, Mr. Speaker, I am seeking to raise a point of privilege, which I think is quite important, particularly in view of the fact that Ontario Hydro has this week become a Crown corporation that is directly accountable, one assumes, to this House." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "That’s right. It is running roughshod around Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Shulman (High Park)", "text": [ "The minister has no right to refuse that information." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "The question of accountability is at stake, it seems to me, when basic information --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "What is the point of privilege?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "The privileges of this House, Mr. Speaker, are affected when members of this Legislature are denied information by the ministry and by a Crown corporation responsible to the House, which directly reports to --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order. There is no privilege that has been abused by the minister; no privilege whatsoever. The hon, member will be seated. There is no point of privilege." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I submit to you, sir, that there is a point of privilege or order for your consideration. Can a minister, just off the top of his head, deny any further information to a member of this House, particularly when it pertains to a public project?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Only if it is the Minister of Energy. There is another embarrassment. They always do it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Surely, Mr. Speaker, this is a matter that should give you some personal concern." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I am sure the hon. Leader of the Opposition is familiar with the provisions pertaining to the question period in which the minister may or may not answer. He need not answer a question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, the member for Ottawa Centre was seeking information from Ontario Hydro, which is now a Crown corporation responsible to the House --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Ruston", "text": [ "The member voted for it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "That’s right! And in a vindictive, splenetic outburst, typical of the minister, he personally denies access. Well, that destroys Hydro’s accountability, and that is a point of privilege in the House, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "It comes from out of his hip pocket." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, surely it is not the right of a minister --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Ruston", "text": [ "Listen to who is talking! The speculator." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "The number one capitalist over there." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "-- of an arrogant minister, to come in here and tell the members of this House they cannot get information on matters which are directly our responsibility." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "When we take power well nationalize Hydro." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Don’t hold your breath!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order please, I’m not at all certain of the precise words used by the hon, minister." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Oh, come on! You heard what he said." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I’m not at all certain of the precise words used by the hon. minister. I’ll undertake to review Hansard, and if, in fact. there is any way in which I can see that the question period has been abused I will certainly take further action. But as far as I am concerned there has been no misuse of the question period on the part of the minister. He need not reply to any question and he may reply in any manner ne sees fit.", "The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Throw him in the tower." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. P. J. Yakabuski (Renfrew South)", "text": [ "Which one?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "The point of privilege, Mr. Speaker, is not the question about the use or misuse of the question period. It is the question of the privileges of members of this House --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Right!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "-- in receiving information from ministers." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order please. I’ve ruled on that. My ruling is not debatable. The hon. member for Brant." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I would like to ask the Attorney General how he decides which denturists are going to be raided and then charged and brought before the courts; because presumably all of the practising denturists are breaking the ridiculous law that was put through the Legislature just a few months ago --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "It is done by lot." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "-- even though the law did not conform to the Attorney General’s stated principle." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Depending on the quality of their character." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, knowing how anxious the Leader of the Opposition is to have this particular matter answered --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "We can’t hear." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch", "text": [ "-- I would indicate at this time that he will recall that my predecessor made the position quite clear, that if anyone knew of anyone who was breaking the law with respect to that statute, that if we had that information we would give it to the Crown Attorney having jurisdiction in that area." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "But which ones does the government put the bite on?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary: Does the Attorney General, therefore, charge only the ones that the Minister of Health (Mr. Miller), or his predecessor, have brought to his attention; or were there complaints from the community; or, in fact, does the minister know of some denturists practising as denturists who are not breaking the law?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, if I may repeat, as far as I know now -- but I will be glad to get up-to-date information -- I know of no complaints that have been brought to us, that is to the Attorney General or to the agent of the Attorney General, the Crown attorney in any of the jurisdictions in Ontario. If the Leader of the Opposition has some information which he feels I should have in this regard, I will gladly put it in the hands of the proper court officials." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Since he has asked for the information, I would suggest that the information that he seeks lies in the mind of the Minister of Health. The Attorney General should surely advise the Minister of Health that that law must be amended and put back the way the Attorney General had it originally, and then there would be no more problem and the denturists would be able to practise legally. Is that the information the minister was asking for?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for High Park." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Can the minister explain why the leaders of the denturists have not been raided? In fact, people like Mr. Sweet have publicly got up and said they’re practising. He’s continuing to practise, and yet he isn’t touched. But the government touches these little people around the province. Is it being done by lot?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Perhaps we’ll get him to streak across the chamber." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Who?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch", "text": [ "Does the member mean the hon. member for High Park?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "No, the Attorney General." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch", "text": [ "That would be a real treat if I did." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "It will be an apparition, I will tell the Attorney General." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch", "text": [ "Yes, quite. That would be the reforming AG.", "Mr. Speaker, if I could reply to the hon. member for High Park; I really can’t add anything further to the answer I’ve already provided to the hon. Leader of the Opposition other than to restate the position which my predecessor made quite clear in this House, that if anyone has any information with respect to a violation of that particular statute, he should provide it to us." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "They have a full page ad." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Look in the yellow pages." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Etobicoke." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. L. A. Braithwaite (Etobicoke)", "text": [ "As a supplementary, Mr. Speaker, perhaps the Attorney General could tell us what steps he is taking to protect the rights of innocent people who happen to be visiting denturists when the high-jackbooted police come in? The rights of these people are being severely --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Braithwaite", "text": [ "Shut up! I’m asking a question.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "It is a novelty all right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Braithwaite", "text": [ "That’s nice. The rights of these people are being severely restricted when the police come in." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Braithwaite", "text": [ "Could the Attorney General state what he’s doing to protect these people?" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Are they found-ins?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member has any specific information in this regard, the Attorney General would like to have it.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Braithwaite", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, as a supplementary, a specific case in my particular riding has been brought to the attention of the Minister of Health in the past, and there has been more than one case of this. The Attorney General must know of these cases. I don’t have to give him further information." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Read the papers." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, may I ask a supplementary pursuant to this question?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Yes, you may." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Could the Attorney General tell us about the legality of the full page ad on the government’s dental plan? In light of the fact that the denturists themselves as a profession or as individuals cannot advertise legally, does the Attorney General not feel that he is breaching their ethics by using public funds to advertise for them? Could he tell us about the legality of these acts, which is propaganda for the dentists at public expense?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch", "text": [ "Well Mr. Speaker, if I understand the question correctly, reference is being made to an advertisement inserted by the Ministry of Health. I would suggest that the Ministry of Health is in itself not violating any particular law in advertising that particular programme." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Yes; it is inappropriate, but it is probably not illegal." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Leader of the Opposition.", "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Could I ask the Minister of Energy a question, Mr. Speaker? Last Saturday he indicated: “From a cold, calculated, hard-nosed point of view, the pipeline should not be built until at least 1990”; and on Thursday the Provincial Secretary for Resources Development made the announcement. Can he explain his view?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "I was not cold-blooded." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, as so often happens, one is sometimes misquoted --" ] }, { "speaker": "Some hon. members", "text": [ "Oh, oh." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "-- or one is sometimes not quoted in full. I think the words that I used were quoted correctly, but I also said some other things. I said nothing about 1990. What I said was that from a cold, calculating, completely business-like point of view --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Hard-nosed." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. C. Germa (Sudbury)", "text": [ "Hard-headed." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "Hard-nosed. Did I say that?", "I said it might make sense to defer the decision until such time as it was clear how much oil was going to be available from conventional sources in western Canada and how much oil might be available from the east coast, and then decide whether the line would be built as a reversible line.", "Having said that, I also said, and have said on a number of occasions, that from the point of view of security of supply of the Maritimes, from the point of view of the security of supply of the Province of Quebec, and from the point of view of the security of supply of about 800,000 people in Ontario who live east of the border line, it is imperative that we get on with that pipeline and get it built as quickly as possible." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question: In the light of the minister’s reference about 800,000 people living on the other side of this line, what pressure has the minister brought on the oil companies that are presently supplying oil to the Ottawa area from the west through this Kingston pipeline and, because of the cheaper price from the west, stand to make profits of something like $1 million?", "What pressure has he brought on these companies so that they will give us the oil in Ottawa at the same price as people get it here in Toronto, plus the cost of transportation? Has he brought any pressure on the companies to give the benefit of this cheap oil from the west to the consumers and not to the companies?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "No, Mr. Speaker, we have not, because since last fall both gasoline and heating oil sold east of the Ottawa Valley line has been, in effect, under a price freeze imposed by the government of Canada and administered by the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources. And if any oil company is making an exorbitant profit on sales east of the line, then I would suggest that the hon. member should talk to his federal friends and point that out, because in effect the federal minister is controlling the price." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "I have." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "And if he’s allowing them exorbitant profits, then the hon. member should hang his head in shame.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, in the light of the fact that this problem has been brought to the minister’s attention, will he undertake to bring it to the federal minister’s attention? Will he put pressure on him? This minister is a pretty hard-nosed guy. Go after him.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I know nothing of federal politics --" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "It runs in the family.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I would like to ask a question of the Minister of Industry and Tourism.", "When is the minister releasing all of the feasibility studies and documents related to the proposed Maple Mountain project in northeastern Ontario?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "Good question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "And why?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. C. Bennett (Minister of Industry and Tourism)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, it is my intention to release those reports as soon as I have reported to cabinet on the full facts and the meanings of the report. We have had input from some of the people in the various ministries whom we have asked to comment on them. That should be, likely, within the next 10 days." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Within the next 10 days?", "A further question: When the minister submits those reports can he indicate to the House the effect of the title claims which have been registered by the Indian band against all of the property within which Maple Mountain falls and the possible legal implications of that from the point of view of the government?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am not sure that can be included in the reports at the time we bring them to the House for the simple reason it will take some period of time to look at the validity of the claims placed before the government. I have asked the Attorney General and the Minister of Natural Resources to review the situation and to report back to me and, in turn, to cabinet. If it is possible we will include it; if not it will be brought into the House at a later date." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Right; thank you." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A question, Mr. Speaker, of the Minister of Labour. Now that we are into the new year can he tell the House what finally happened to the 600 employees of the Hall Lamp Co.?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. F. Guindon (Minister of Labour)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, in reply to the hon. member, I am sure he is aware by now that we did everything within our power to collect from the Hall Lamp Co. every dollar in salaries or wages owed to the employees. We have done this; also any amount owing to them with reference to vacation pay. Unfortunately as far as termination pay is concerned we could not get anything from the company." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Not a penny?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "No." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "By way of supplementary, does the minister understand that he was used and manipulated by a private company, a private subsidiary in Ontario, to give voice in this Legislature about a temporary shutdown which was, in fact, permanent from the day it occurred? Therefore, he participated with that company in the denial to 600 people of the rights which he has guaranteed them under legislation and, in the last several weeks, has taken away from them? Can he find some way of avoiding that ever happening again to a large number of people in the Province of Ontario?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "He was had." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "He was had by a company." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, of course, hindsight is much easier than foresight. Nonetheless, we are looking at our legislation to see what we can do in the case of bankruptcy. This is a case of bankruptcy; as members know it is." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "But the minister was told. Right from day one." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "We were told. We have no control over the Bankruptcy Act." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "They didn’t declare bankruptcy for weeks." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "This comes under federal legislation, as members know." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "For weeks they didn’t declare bankruptcy.", "I have a question on that subject of the Minister of Industry and Tourism. I take it that, in fact, no loan was granted or is to be granted through the Ontario Development Corp. to reopen the Hall Lamp Co. for other purposes?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, as I indicated to the House some weeks ago, in the last sitting, there were several firms interested in trying to pick up the pieces of Hall Lamp. Our ministry, through Ontario Development Corp. -- I should say both the ministry and the Ontario Development Corp. met with several firms to discuss the possibility of putting the operation back together. None of them could put up the capital funds required.", "I might admit that there were two or three companies which went in and finished off some of the products for which they were waiting for delivery to their plants and they did use part of the labour force for a period of time. But no one at this point has picked up the pieces, because the capital investment is too great and the firms we were talking with did not have the resources to put themselves in that position." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Fair enough. So it was an entire disaster from day one." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am not sure it was an entire disaster. We have bankruptcies in this province and on many occasions this government has tried through the Ontario Development Corp. --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "It wasn’t a bankruptcy." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "-- to stabilize the firm to retain and maintain the employment in that particular operation or operations." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The government sure didn’t do it this time." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "We tried in every area to secure the position of the firm but it was an impossibility, and it would not have been money well invested by the government of Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Huron with a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. Riddell (Huron)", "text": [ "A supplementary of the minister: Is he aware that a Canadian firm, along with the former managerial staff of Hall Lamp, submitted a bid which was a very reasonable bid to the receiver, and that the receiver has failed to act on this bid -- and is there anything that the minister can do to speed up the process so that the plant can be reactivated and put back into operation?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, as I indicated earlier, there were several firms that were interested in trying to pick up the pieces of Hall Lamp. The one the member speaks of did put in a proposal. It was my understanding, in information given to us by the receiver, that the sums of money put forward by the organization were not sufficient to carry the position.", "Now, I can review it again with the receiver and the people in Ontario Development Corp.; but that was the last word that I had had on the Hall Lamp and those that were interested in trying to re-establish it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A question of the Minister of Natural Resources: Can he now tell the House what he has offered for the acquisition of the Lake Ontario Cement property after the expropriation is completed?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, as I informed the House at the last sitting this matter was being handled by the Land Compensation Board. It comes under the Attorney General’s department. I am informed that an independent appraiser was engaged and on his report the company was offered $150,000 on Jan. 22. The company rejected the offer, but the cheque was delivered to the firm on Feb. 15 and has not been returned." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West has further questions?" ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "One very quick question of the Premier, Mr. Speaker. The Premier just made a series of appointments and reappointments amounting to five in number to the Workmen’s Compensation Board -- to the highest portion of that board dealing with administration and appeals -- not a single one of which appointments was a woman. Does that reflect the new tenure of the Throne Speech?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I --" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Tenure?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Tenor, I am sorry." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I was going to ask about tenure. We on this side of the House will make sure the tenure is continued as far as the affairs of this government are concerned." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)", "text": [ "Answer the question." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "As far as the tenor of the Throne Speech is concerned, I think what was stated there is not only an obvious fact, but many of the appointments that have been made in recent months would substantiate it.", "With respect to the appointments to the Workmen’s Compensation Board, there is not a woman in that particular group. But I can assure the hon. member -- because I know he is interested in women being appointed -- that there are two or three other appointees to be made to the Workmen’s Compensation Board, and it is our hope to have a woman as one of those." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Downsview." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "I have a question of the Premier. In view of the Premier’s statement not too long ago that we could expect new no-fault automobile insurance laws in Ontario, and in view of the recent publicity given to a proposal along these lines by the insurance industry, is that the kind of new law that the Premier had in mind? Or in view of the reaction that that proposal has received from portions of the insurance industry -- and certainly from the legal profession and from many members of the public -- would the Premier be prepared to set up a select committee to inquire into this whole problem -- including rates, no-fault principles, the extensions of our law -- so that Ontario might perhaps have a better law than it now has?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Please say no." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I don’t intend to establish a select committee on that subject, certainly at this moment. I don’t really recall saying that we are going to have a new no-fault insurance programme. I do recall speaking to a group of insurance people some time ago -- this will upset my friends over here; hopefully not those across the House; certainly not the member from -- well, never mind -- that we did not intend as a government to get into the insurance business." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Who is that constituent?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "But I made it very clear that we expected the insurance industry to act in a responsible way reflecting the legitimate concerns of the public generally." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "And who gave generously to the Premier’s party -- yes?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I don’t recall saying there would be a new no-fault insurance scheme." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "I’ve got that." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I don’t think I said that. Now, Mr. Speaker, there has been a report. A report was sent to the minister responsible, which has provoked some discussion. I think The Advocates’ Society is one group that has registered some objection." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Haven’t heard of lawyers --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I think The Advocates’ Society -- and I don’t quarrel with The Advocates’ Society -- were represented primarily by people in the legal profession --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Boy, were they mad. The loss of clients." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "They were upset, weren’t they?" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Yes, so was the --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Yes, I think their concern, though, was not --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "They have Tory presidents as members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I think in fairness it related to -- and I don’t want to get into a lengthy discussion -- the question of the application of the law of tort." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "That is an important facet of the discussion." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "That’s right. And I think that is somewhat relevant. I think it is also important to point out --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "It should relate a little more to the law of income." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I think it is also important to point out, and I say this to our friends in the socialist group --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Aha!" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Well, I know they are trying to become more conservative but they haven’t convinced us yet." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "No, no, no." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "A wolf in sheep’s clothing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "On a point of personal privilege, the Premier has called me many things before but never a socialist and I was pleased to acknowledge it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Well, I used that in the very broad sense of the word. I have used stronger terminology, I must confess. Now, where was I before I was interrupted?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "The Premier interrupted himself." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I was saying I think part of the discussion has also made one point very obvious and I think it needs to be restated in this House. Many people who have referred to this report say that the whole approach taken by the Province of Ontario with respect to automobile insurance happens to be one of the best schemes operating anywhere in the world. Now these are friends of the members opposite who have said this, not me." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Are we going to have a committee to study this?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I doubt it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for High Park." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "A question of the Minister of Health, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I’m sorry, the hon. member for Ottawa East has a supplementary, which I will permit." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Among the proposals of the insurance company criticized by The Advocates’ Society I would like to bring to the Premier’s attention is apparently the right of subrogation by OHIP from the insurance company, which as the government knows is something like $10 million a year. Does the Premier agree with that proposal, which in fact would be the taxpayers subsidizing the insurance company?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "To be very frank, I try to take in a lot of information. I will confess to the member that I just haven’t assessed it very carefully personally so I won’t offer any point of view." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for High Park." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "To the Minister of Health, Mr. Speaker: In view of the statements made by certain chiropractors last week, and reported in the Ottawa Citizen, that they are treating under OHIP asthma and diabetes, what steps has the minister taken? Does he intend to pay claims of this nature? Does he intend to do anything to protect the public?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. F. S. Miller (Minister of Health)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "If the members could keep it up for two more minutes, question period will be over." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "The honeymoon’s over now, let’s hear it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "The minister hasn’t made a mistake yet." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Well, the question being asked by the member for High Park is a very good one.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "That in itself is a change. However, we are of course looking at the role of the chiropractor and under the Health Disciplines bill this whole question is going to be discussed. I’m not prepared at this time to say what in fact is the scope of practice of a chiropractor and what is not. I can only say that in due -- what is the word?; in the fullness of time? --" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "He’s going places." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Ruston", "text": [ "The Premier better turn around." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "How come the minister looked at the Premier to find that out?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Going to have to sit him the other way so that he can conduct." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "-- we will in fact be making that determination." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Supplementary, if I may, Mr. Speaker: Does that mean that at the present time chiropractors and others -- perhaps podiatrists -- can treat asthma or cancer or diabetes or anything else if they wish and the minister is going to make no limitations at the present time but we’re going to wait for the fullness of time to protect the public?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Jessiman", "text": [ "He didn’t say that." ] }, { "speaker": "An. hon. member", "text": [ "Is the minister going to pay them for that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "I did not say that. I think the member will find that this was one of the major issues in the study of the role of the various components of the health delivery system undertaken a couple of years ago -- the question as to whether in fact the practice of chiropractic permitted the treatment of organic disorders or not. I am quite aware of the position of the medical profession on this. I, as yet, have not tried to reach an opinion on it. I am going to have this information before me when this part comes up and the study is going on now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for York-Forest Hill." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. P. G. Givens (York-Forest Hill)", "text": [ "A question of the Minister of Transportation and Communications: Is it a fact that there are negotiations taking place with his ministry now to alter the contract with Krauss-Maffei and, if so, what is the nature of these negotiations, and what are the financial implications of these negotiations?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. R. Rhodes (Minister of Transportation and Communications)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of any negotiations going on at this time. I would trust that the hon. members opposite will appreciate the fact that I am going to take some time to understand all of the intricacies of this particular situation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Probably until the session is over, yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "It is going to take some time. Even the Premier doesn’t understand it yet." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The Minister of Transportation and Communications has the answer to a question asked previously." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Speaker, the member for York-Forest Hill, who apparently is going to do this regularly, asked a question yesterday:", "“Would the Minister of Transportation and Communications explain why there has been delay in the awarding of the guideway in the station contracts of the Krauss-Maffei experiment in the CNE which were promised for December and January?”", "First of all, Mr. Speaker, we do not accept that there has been a delay. The construction of the guideway at the CNE is being accomplished by the developer under several separate subcontracts. The first operation, after the design advanced to the point that column locations were known, was to relocate the existing utilities. This relocation work was done, partly by subcontract and partly by the utility companies involved. The tenders for the utility relocation subcontract closed Dec. 12, 1973, and this work is now completed." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "The man of the year said they would be let in October." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "The second operation was the installation of the column foundations. The tenders for the subcontract closed on Nov. 7, 1973, and this work is approximately 50 per cent completed, with 221 caissons completed of 481 caissons required, and will be completed about May 1.", "The third operation is the construction and erection of the columns and beams. The subcontract for this work was advertised today and the work will proceed, if weather permits, this spring. The subcontract for the column and beam components of the guideway has been called in sequence and within an acceptable schedule for the work." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Where is the member for York-Forest Hill getting his information?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "He got it from the Premier’s speech." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Waterloo North." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. R. Good (Waterloo North)", "text": [ "Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Givens", "text": [ "The Premier is 3½ months late now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for High Park had asked the previous question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "No, the member for York-Forest Hill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I stand corrected. The hon. member for Wentworth." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "I have a question of the Minister of Revenue." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order please. The hon. member for Wentworth is next, I am sorry." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Education. Is it the intention of the minister to revise the spending ceilings in education this current year in addition to the ones last year, and if so, will he make the announcement soon in order that there will not be any need to restart negotiations after the announcement is made?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. T. L. Wells (Minister of Education)", "text": [ "I don’t know exactly what the hon. member is driving at except that perhaps some boards have been sending us in briefs indicating that there have been changes in the economy since the 1974 ceilings were announced in August, 1973. We have been studying those briefs very carefully and some time shortly will make a comment on all those briefs from the various boards." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Well, one supplementary question: Does that mean that there is the possibility of a revision in the spending ceilings for education in the Province of Ontario this year?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells", "text": [ "All I can tell the hon. member is that we are studying the briefs that the various boards have sent in indicating changes in the cost of living figures that apply to their budgets." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "In other words, by way of supplementary, the minister is going to revise the ceilings upwards, allegedly to meet the inflationary spiral, but in fact to try to take the heat off present government policy?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells", "text": [ "I didn’t say that at all. I said we were studying the briefs that were sent in. Now surely, as responsible persons over here in a ministry, we should study what boards, in good faith, send in to us." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "We await an announcement. The minister should make the announcement soon because negotiations are under way." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells", "text": [ "Those briefs have been sent in, they are being studied and they will all be answered. They haven’t been answered yet." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Okay. Please don’t wait too long." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Waterloo North." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A question of the Minister of Revenue. In view of the fact that recent court decisions have allowed that assessments can be made on mobile homes under the general provisions of the Assessment Act, which was not previously done, does the minister consider that this is the intent of the present legislation? If it is not, would he take steps to amend the legislation, or would he see that the Municipal Act is amended so that municipalities cannot put their $20 per month levy on the same mobile homes which are being assessed under the general provisions of the Assessment Act?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. A. K. Meen (Minister of Revenue)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, my ministry will have to take a look at that court case and determine whether that interpretation is in fact the one which the government intended to be placed on the section. If it should turn out that it is not, I think we would have to look very carefully at suitable amendments. If those amendments are required to be made under the Municipal Act, they would be made, of course, in another ministry, but if they were to be made under the Assessment Act, then it would be a question for my own ministry. I may have more I can say on that in the not too distant future." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "Just one short supplementary: Could the minister assure the members of the House that people living in mobile homes will not be subject to double taxation under the two respective Acts? This is what people want to know." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, certainly it is not the intention of the government that the owners and residents of mobile homes would be double-taxed." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Petitions.", "Presenting reports.", "Hon. Mr. Snow presented the report of the Ministry of Government Services for the year ending March 31, 1973, and the report of the Provincial Auditor for the year ending March 31, 1973.", "Hon. Mr. Irvine presented the general development agreement and the federal-provincial subsidiary agreement for regional economic development in the Cornwall area which were signed between the federal and Ontario governments at Cornwall on Feb. 26, 1974." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Motions.", "Introduction of bills." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the bill allows denturists to take impressions, construct and fit complete upper, lower and partial dentures, and deal directly with the public. This is the same bill that was before the Legislature in my name during the last sessions." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. W. A. Stewart (Minister of Agriculture and Food)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, briefly the bill simply follows up on changes that were made in the Milk Act last year and transfers certain powers from the commission to the director of the dairy branch." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. R. Brunelle (Minister of Community and Social Services)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this bill is to transfer administrative responsibility for facilities for mentally retarded persons from the Ministry of Health to the Ministry of Community and Social Services. This bill is part of a broad policy to implement the provision of a complete range of social services in the community for mentally retarded persons." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. D. R. Irvine (Minister without Portfolio)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on Feb. 26 the Treasurer (Mr. White) had the privilege of signing a general development agreement relating to activities in Ontario of the federal Department of Regional Economic Expansion, and a subsidiary agreement under which the governments of Canada and Ontario will contribute approximately $14 million to development projects in Cornwall. In the coming months I hope we will sign additional agreements covering other areas. The purpose of this bill is to allow municipalities to join us in both financing and undertaking a broad range of regional economic development programmes.", "Mr. Speaker, we are anxious to have this bill passed quickly so that we can enter into an agreement with the city of Cornwall. I will be taking it through the legislative process." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, this bill provides for three minor amendments to clarify the interpretation of the code, and one amendment which is of a housekeeping nature." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "I thought the minister was going to take over the investigation into the Human Rights Commission." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this bill is to safeguard the rights of individuals deemed abnormal by police officers, who are taken to mental institutions against their will. This bill would make an amendment under section 10 of the Mental Health Act to require that a person who has been detained under that section of the Act be given a medical examination and brought before a justice of the peace within 24 hours to justify his detention. As the Act is presently written, Mr. Speaker, there are no safeguards for individuals and this is a potentially dangerous situation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. M. Johnston (St. Catharines)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "All right.", "Mr. R. M. Johnston moves first reading of Bill Pr2." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "Too late." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "The member just bombed. He’ll have to try again." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I wish to inform the hon. member that the time has not approached, at this point, for the reading of private bills. They haven’t gone through the private bills committee; the procedural affairs committee, in fact.", "Orders of the day." ] }, { "speaker": "Clerk of the House", "text": [ "The first order, consideration of the speech of the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor at the opening of the session." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Brantford." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. B. Beckett (Brantford)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, it is an honour and a privilege for me to be called upon to move this address to His Honour the Lieutenant Governor. I am certain all members of this Legislature will join me in thanking His Honour for his words of confidence and inspiration which will surely guide us well in our deliberations in the days and nights ahead; deliberations which will, indeed, have a decided effect on all of us in Ontario in the future years.", "I am sure all members of this Legislature will join me in an expression of appreciation to His Honour for the very excellent manner in which he has represented Her Majesty the Queen during his term of office as Lie tenant Governor of Ontario. We all regret that his term of office is shortly to be completed.", "The Lieutenant Governor has not spared himself in his constant activities throughout this province. He has visited most parts of this province and has left an indelible impression of the dignity and graciousness that he has given to his high office.", "He has taken a very special interest in the young people of this province and he has inspired them. He has an excellent sense of humour and has established a rapport with young and old that is the envy of all people in political life.", "I’m very pleased to have this opportunity to place on the official record of this hon. assembly my personal appreciation of the Lieutenant Governor, since his home is in my riding of Brantford.", "As all hon. members are aware, W. Ross Macdonald served the citizens of Brantford for many years as the Member of Parliament for Brantford. He has served as Speaker of the House of Commons in Ottawa, as government leader of the Senate, and as a Senator. His many accomplishments in the public service are too numerous to mention today; however, we will all have the opportunity to honour this great Canadian later this month and I’m sure we are all looking forward to this happy occasion.", "I would be remiss if I did not mention the forthcoming appointment of Mrs. Pauline McGibbon as Her Majesty’s representative in Ontario. I am sure all members are looking forward to Mrs. McGibbon’s tenure of office with great anticipation and that she will bring to this high office the graciousness and distinction to which we have become accustomed.", "Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to see you back in the chair with your accustomed good humour and apparent good health. I believe all members share in the appreciation of the difficult job you do so well. There are, of course, occasions when some members in the heat of debate will be unhappy with your decisions. However, I am confident that when the heat of battle cools all members will agree you have served with distinction and with fairness to all, and we are delighted to see you there.", "I wish also to congratulate the new members of cabinet who have new responsibilities in the challenging days that lie ahead. I am sure they will once again demonstrate the qualities of leadership which have made Ontario the great province that it is today. The former cabinet members deserve our respect and appreciation for their years of excellent service to the people of the province. I am delighted that we will continue to have the benefit of their experience and counsel in this assembly.", "Mr. Speaker, the Speech from the Throne indicates to this assembly and to the citizens of this province the concerns of the government and its proposals to deal with these concerns. I feel that the speech delivered last Tuesday by His Honour was an excellent Throne Speech because it clearly indicates that this government recognizes its responsibilities, is prepared to accept these responsibilities and, most important, to act in a responsible manner.", "The Throne Speech faced up to today’s realities of inflation and the energy problem. It rightly placed inflation as a country-wide problem that can only be dealt with on a country-wide basis. It made no pie in the sky proposals on either inflation or energy but it did promise the essential co-operation with the government of Canada and the other provinces so that these problems can be minimized to the benefit of all.", "The programmes announced to improve essential services to remote areas of the province deserve the support of all members of this assembly. I think it is important to remember that the speech emphasized consultation and co-operation with those wishing to participate. The Polar Gas project is an exciting project with great future significance to our province. A James Bay area port could bring benefits to that area and to all the province.", "I am pleased to note the improved loan programmes and financial assistance will continue to be available to tourist operators, small businesses and service industries. The key word here is improve because although the loans and assistance have been available the conditions, in my opinion, have been too restrictive. Small businesses are the backbone of Ontario’s economy and they merit real assistance. Small businesses provide a great deal of varied employment for our citizens.", "Having served on the select committee on the utilization of educational facilities, I welcome the statement that the government proposes to expand academic and cultural opportunities in the open sector of post-secondary education. The extension of educational broadcasts within the province is a further step that will provide a needed service which has been largely confined to the Metro Toronto area. New and innovative educational materials for school and college students as well as persons learning at home is good news for those interested or concerned with such needs. Let’s get on with it.", "I am sure that all members will welcome the announcement of an income support programme to aid Ontario’s older citizens and for the disabled. These two groups of our population have been caught in the inflationary spiral. The only probable disagreement will be in how much support and how soon will the support be available. I have, as every other member of this House has, I am sure, many people in my riding whom I will recommend for such income support. The proposal for a prescription drug plan for senior citizens will also be good news. We all must know of many senior citizens whose lives will be made easier with such assistance.", "The new programmes for assistance to co-operative daycare centres in low-income areas, the making available of resources to expand high priority services such as those for handicapped children, children from low-income families and native children, are all commendable. But the proposal I like best is the review of the regulations with the aim of removing unnecessary impediments to the creation of new services.", "Mr. Speaker, not being trained in law I do not pretend to understand all of the Ontario Law Reform Commission’s report on the administration of the courts. However, I am sure that there are more than enough in this House who are trained in law, and if they can agree on a planned programme of implementation for judicial areas and for the rotation of judges and trial centres throughout these areas after consultation with those affected, I will be content.", "If, however, this should mean the appointment of an additional provincial judge in the provincial court in Brantford, I will be grateful. The city council of Brantford and the Brant County Bar Association have requested such an additional appointment to facilitate the court procedures in Brant county. The present judge has had no other recourse than to adjourn cases from February to June because of his heavy docket.", "I welcome the new procedures in the Ministry of Correctional Services, the proposal for legislation on consumer product warranties and guarantees, and new redress procedures in the field of the Ministry of Consumer and Commercial Relations.", "I am sure that all members, in our unofficial role as ombudsmen, have been frustrated in the past in these matters of better protection for consumers. Caveat Emptor -- let the buyer beware -- is not a good slogan in these days of high-pressure sales made to unwary purchasers who too often are in the low-income bracket.", "Before some hon. members feel I am too happy, I would like to indicate that I am not happy with some of the implications of a mandatory use of automobile seat belts. I am not happy with a law that apparently would be so difficult to enforce and so easy to evade. I also have been told of several incidents where survival of an automobile driver or passenger has been possible because the seat belt was not being used. People have been trapped, I have been informed, by seat belts in automobile accidents." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)", "text": [ "Is the member going to vote for the bill?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Beckett", "text": [ "I am sure that this matter will receive much attention before legislation is passed, and at this time I will await further evidence before casting my vote." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Very healthy attitude." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "He’s going to abstain." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Beckett", "text": [ "I particularly approve of the special efforts that will be made to encourage local initiatives for community-based mental-retardation services, including new community residences. Assistance to a larger number of physically and mentally disabled persons in their own communities is important. Such persons are nearly always happier in familiar surroundings and not in some massive far-away institution. The burden of extensive and costly travel for visiting purposes is also removed from the families of such persons.", "The health planning task force report, chaired by Dr. Fraser Mustard, and its proposals for the further development of a comprehensive health plan will be studied with eager anticipation. Dr. Mustard has an impressive reputation and I hope his task force report is as frank as he has been in person.", "I welcome the new housing proposals. In my own riding of Brantford, where the major urban centre is the city of Brantford, there is a major building boom in residential units but the shortage of serviced land will shortly curtail this programme.", "Land costs are already too high and will likely continue to rise as the shortage continues. In Brantford, without the small Ontario Housing Home Ownership Made Easy programme this year, it would be nearly impossible for the low- or medium-income earners to purchase a home. My personal conviction is that these land costs will not come down or even level off until there is a surplus of lots available. This can only be achieved by the development of serviced land in the surrounding township of Brantford. Such development can be achieved if the future of local government in Brant county is shortly resolved and some further assistance is granted to municipalities to provide sewer facilities." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)", "text": [ "Brantford might try some public ownership as well." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Beckett", "text": [ "The Ontario Housing Corp. owns approximately 1,000 acres in a land bank in the township of Brantford. The city could physically service such lands soon if municipal boundaries are established at local government’s request and with ministerial approval. Financial assistance by the province will be necessary to expedite such mammoth sewer construction. Lands are being held in our area by the private sector for future development and the majority of the land is still under agricultural production, but if it were not I would request the implementation of government assistance to ensure the continued agricultural production use of these lands. I believe this to be a legitimate and necessary government control.", "I’m encouraged by the neighbourhood improvement programmes, the provincial home renewal programme, and hope that these plans can be facilitated as soon as possible.", "This year the citizens of Brant county and Brantford are celebrating the centennial of the invention of the telephone by Dr. Alexander Graham Bell in Brantford in 1874." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "There has been trouble ever since." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Beckett", "text": [ "To those of you who thought that Don Ameche in the Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer production invented the telephone in Boston, USA, I would refer you to the official history text that will show that Dr. Bell in his own words and handwriting confirmed that the telephone was indeed invented at Brantford. These celebrations commenced on Jan. 1, 1974, Mr. Speaker, and will continue throughout the whole year. On July 7 the Bell centennial parade with the theme, “Thank you, Dr. Bell,” will be held with over 100 floats and many marching bands. I take pleasure inviting the hon. members of this House and their families to attend and see what will probably be the largest parade ever held in Canada." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. C. E. McIlveen (Oshawa)", "text": [ "Will the member for Brantford put us up?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Beckett", "text": [ "Perhaps the members of this House could put aside political feelings for one day and enter a float. The theme of such a float could be our appreciation to Dr. Bell for providing us with such a useful means of easy communication between ourselves here in Toronto and with the citizens in our ridings.", "I’m sure that some hon. members will have wished, as I often have, that Dr. Bell had stayed in bed instead of inventing a telephone, but if he hadn’t some other scientist would have, and it probably would not have been in Brantford, Ont., but in a foreign land and we would have had to learn a foreign language.", "Thank you, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Timiskaming," ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Now we know why you sent around the Tums." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. M. Havrot (Timiskaming)", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Wait till I get around to that. I’ll get around to him.", "It is indeed a pleasure and a privilege for me to second the motion of the hon. member for Brantford for the adoption of the Speech from the Throne.", "I too would like to pay tribute to His Honour the Lieutenant Governor for the manner in which he has carried out the duties and responsibilities of his office. He has combined charm and good humour with dignity and enthusiasm and vigour with decorum.", "Before I get on with the details of my speech, I would like to make a few comments on my observations as a first-term member of this Legislature during the past three sessions. First of all, Mr. Speaker, I’m very much impressed with your great dedication and ability in handling the daily complex problems of this House. No individual member, whether on the government side or in opposition, spends as much time in the Legislature listening to the countless hours of debate as you, Mr. Speaker. For this reason I firmly believe you must have the most calloused pair of ears of any human being in Ontario.", "Mr. Speaker, my impressions of the opposition members in this Legislature leave me wondering how such talent -- listen to this -- talent, is wasted in countless hours of nonsensical childish bickering. I am told that many of the speeches made are replays from previous years, like warmed-up coffee, flat and bitter, or like baloney, lots of filler but very little meat.", "I realize it is very difficult for opposition members to find genuine criticism of good government. However, I would assume that they would at least spend some more time looking for ways and means of further improving our system of government, rather than constantly bellyaching and grand-standing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. W. Martel (Sudbury East)", "text": [ "Maybe the hon. member should follow the first rule -- and that is that he can’t read a speech." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "I don’t know which is worse, my sore back or his voice.", "Much has been said about televising the debates from this Legislature for the people of Ontario. Mr. Speaker, I would very much welcome such a suggestion as it would once and for all give the taxpayers of Ontario a clearer picture as to how our democratic process operates, rather than relying on biased reports from the press gallery.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "I am coming to them now.", "As one who has great concern for the welfare of my fellow man, I am pleased to provide temporary relief to the opposition members with a roll of tablets for “stomach orders and bellyaches” in the hope that it may create some harmony in this House for at least several days." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "He is going to give it to the rump as well, I hope." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "No, the members opposite are the only fellows who will get it -- don’t worry." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "The Premier (Mr. Davis) is interested in what the member has to say." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)", "text": [ "So is the whole cabinet." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "Thank you very much.", "Mr. Speaker, I am extremely proud to represent my people in the riding of Timiskaming, which I may add is a big and beautiful area --", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "-- almost as big as your mouth." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order please." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "It is rated by the Ministry of Natural Resources and the Ministry of Industry and Tourism as one of the most beautiful ridings in the province. It stretches from south of Latchford for over 100 miles to north of Kirkland Lake. It is bounded by the Quebec border to the east and reaches past Elk Lake to the west. It is surrounded by Cochrane South to the north. Nickel Belt to the west, and Nipissing to the south; and considering the political affiliation of the members from those ridings, I may be forgiven for stating that there are ample reasons for regarding Timiskaming as one of the more intelligent districts in the north." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "One can’t say that for the member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "It is a riding which is largely dependent upon mining, lumbering, farming, tourism and light manufacturing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)", "text": [ "And Ed Havrot." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, my greatest area of concern is the lack of employment opportunities for the hundreds of capable young people graduating annually from our high schools and community colleges who are lured to the bright spots of Toronto and the job opportunities of the “golden horseshoe.” The north has become an educational factory for business and industry of southern Ontario.", "Mr. Speaker, as a major step to stem the flow of our youth from the north I would like to strongly urge my government to take immediate action to implement the Maple Mountain project, which is located 30 miles west of the town of Haileybury." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. W. Ferrier (Cochrane South)", "text": [ "“George,” we will send you these Tums over." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "The Solicitor General (Mr. Kerr) just fell off his chair on that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. W. Ewen (Wentworth North)", "text": [ "Put your hand up, “Gomer,” we will let you go to the bathroom." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "During the past two years this project has received a tremendous amount of publicity by all the media across the province. I might also add that it has received enthusiastic support from municipal councils in northeastern Ontario from Sudbury to Kapuskasing, representing almost a quarter of a million people.", "The cost of this proposed project has been kicked around like a football, ranging anywhere from $40 million to $100 million. Another misconception has been that the project will be funded entirely from the public sector. This is not so and here are the facts:", "Stage one: Total estimated expenditure -- $42 million. Forty-six percent of this amount would be funded over a five-year period by the provincial and federal governments yielding an 8½ per cent return on investment, and the balance of 54 per cent from the private sector.", "Of more than 30 sites thoroughly investigated throughout many areas of the province, Maple Mountain was the only site that had all the ingredients to develop a year-round resort community providing a full range of recreational activity to attract large numbers of visitors for extended periods of stay." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "I hear it is pretty cold for skiing in the winter up there." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "Well, we live up there. How does my friend figure that one?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "It’s about 25 deg. colder than the Laurentians." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "It is 2 deg. colder, the statistics prove, my friend.", "The potential economic and social benefits to the region are enormous. Through the construction of stage one alone over 1,200 people would be employed. Once in operation, stage one would employ over 900 people. Most of those would commute from the Tritown area.", "It is estimated that this project would attract up to 17.6 million visitor dollars annually, compared with $7.3 million for the entire riding in 1972, not to mention those dollars which will be spent directly off-site and throughout the region. The greatest percentage of all these dollars, through labour costs and the purchase of services, goods and supplies, will remain in the north.", "Every effort will be made to encourage local individual and corporate financial participation in the project, and such would ensure that even more dollars would remain in the north. I might add, Mr. Speaker, that many northerners have already expressed a genuine interest to invest in this most exciting project. I urge the government to consider what this project will mean, not just to my riding, but to the entire north country.", "Tourism has to be developed in the north as our mines and forests will not last forever. It can and will provide new opportunities for private capital. It can provide many hundreds of jobs for young people who want to live in the north. If we have a major tourist attraction, international in its scope, then we will see tourists spill out all over the north, but we desperately need some magnet to draw them into the area." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "They will take the bus to Cobalt and buy a cup of coffee, eh?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "That magnet, Mr. Speaker, is the Maple Mountain project, which contains immense potential for revitalizing the north country. I didn’t hear the member -- a little louder please." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "They will take the bus to Cobalt and buy a cup of coffee. That is the spin-off from that proposition. All the rest of the region will get nothing more." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "That’s just about the size of the member’s mind -- about the size of a cup of coffee.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "Another great area of concern to me, Mr. Speaker, has been the decision on the part of most ministries at Queen’s Park to locate the bulk of regional and district offices in the larger, more expensive and prosperous communities of the north -- completely ignoring the smaller, less prosperous communities which are struggling for survival. I strongly feel that if the north is to grow, it must grow together and not in the isolated population growth areas.", "This problem of centralization and bureaucratic thinking extends to the Ontario Northland Railway. Despite all kinds of efforts at the political level to make the ONR a vital and imaginative development growth, it is regarded by most northerners as solely a North Bay concern.", "To elaborate on this point, North Bay does not produce a dollar’s worth of revenue for the ONR, yet the main operations are concentrated in the Bay. The communities along the system which help produce the revenues are gradually being downgraded with staff, workshop and equipment reductions -- and in some cases are being phased out completely.", "I would also like to suggest that we need younger and more vigorous commissioners and the appointment of a commissioner to represent labour on the ONR --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Ferrier", "text": [ "They need a new chairman too." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "They need a new chairman, yes. Take the land speculators out of the ONR." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "The members opposite couldn’t hold a candle to him. They couldn’t hold a candle to the chairman. The only thing they have got longer than he has is a tongue. I congratulate my government on the improvement to the norOntair service and the utilization of a new municipal airstrip at Kirkland Lake. This excellent facility now provides a connecting link for people in the Kirkland Lake, Englehart, Earlton, and Tritown with Air Canada and Sudbury --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Is the member bucking for the chairman’s job?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "-- on two direct return flights daily from Toronto with an average flying time of only two hours each way.", "Mr. Speaker, the people of the north appreciate the excellent community colleges, but I feel that the time has come for a complete survey of community college facilities in Ontario and that no more should be built or enlarged until our present facilities are operating at capacity. The college in Kirkland Lake is operating at about 50 per cent capacity and the situation in Timmins isn’t much better. I see constant duplication and outright competition with taxpayers’ money between the colleges in Ontario as they seek students. It would make more sense to offer increased grants to southern Ontario students to locate in the north rather than spend more millions in expansion in the south.", "I am well aware that this government and the Minister of Health (Mr. Miller) are concerned over the increasing costs of medical services. I do suggest that we should replace the present cumbersome billing procedures with a simple credit card. After all, if you can get four new tires and a grease job simply by presenting a credit card, I see no reason why medical attention should require so much paper work.", "Since transportation has been one of the major problems of the north, I very much welcome the recent appointment of my good friend and colleague, John Rhodes of Sault Ste. Marie, as Minister of Transportation and Communications. This appointment --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)", "text": [ "Repeat that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "Oh, would the minister like a replay? Since transportation has been one of the major problems of the north, I very much welcome the recent appointment of my good friend and colleague, John Rhodes of Sault Ste. Marie, as Minister of Transportation and Communications." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Gilbertson (Algoma)", "text": [ "Rhodes for roads." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "This appointment brings the number of cabinet ministers to three from northeastern and northwestern Ontario and clearly indicates that the government recognizes the needs and priorities of the north. I might also add that this is the first time in the history of the province that this important portfolio has been held by a northern member." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "How about that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "The government unveiled this past year a series of important steps designed to benefit the economy of northern Ontario. A 10 per cent increase in general support grants, announced in the budget for northern municipalities, is in addition to grants made to all other Ontario municipalities. The new business incentive programme provides for loans to new or expanding northern businesses of up to $1 million or 90 per cent of capital costs and may be interest-free. Interim reductions on freight rates averaging 18 per cent are in effect in northeastern Ontario. They have helped to reduce costs of incoming goods and permit outgoing products to compete more effectively in southern markets.", "Mr. Speaker, I was delighted by the recognition given to northern Ontario in the Speech from the Throne. The opportunity to establish local community councils in unorganized townships in northern Ontario is most welcome. Studies to establish a port facility in the James Bay area to bring potential supplies of gas, oil and minerals from sources in the eastern Arctic will no doubt stimulate exploration and there is a good possibility that this area could well become a major producer of natural gas for Ontario.", "I wholeheartedly support the proposal for a prescription drug plan for senior citizens. The present form of assistance through welfare agencies is totally unacceptable.", "The provincial home renewal programme which provides grants to homeowners in municipalities for preserving and upgrading the quality of existing homes will be of great benefit to the people of the north. Over the years, many homeowners have experienced difficulties in obtaining loans at reasonable rates to improve their homes.", "I look forward to the implementation of these and other recommendations in the fourth session of the 29th Parliament. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.", "Mr. R. F. Nixon moves the adjournment of the debate.", "Motion agreed to.", "Hon. Mr. Winkler moves the adjournment of the House.", "Motion agreed to.", "The House adjourned at 3:50 o’clock, p.m." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker.", "In the absence of the Minister of Education (Mr. Wells), I wonder if the Premier could report to the House the status on the negotiations -- the protracted negotiations -- between the secondary school teachers and the York county board?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. G. Davis (Premier)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the minister, I expect, will be here shortly and could probably give to the House a more detailed description, not as to the state of the negotiations in any detail, but some of the history of it and his own activities and that of the ministry.", "The parties are meeting -- I believe they reconvened at 10 o’clock this morning -- at the request of the minister, and I can only assume that negotiations are going on at this precise moment unless they are still having lunch; and I expect the minister will be here very shortly." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "He will be here?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I expect the minister will be here very shortly." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. A. J. Roy (Ottawa East)", "text": [ "It took the Premier a long time to answer that one." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I was hoping the minister would be here. I would like to put another question to the Premier arising out of a section in the Speech from the Throne yesterday. Can he give the House the assurance that the proposal in the speech calling for an objective assessment of the environmental impact of public works -- and I presume private development as well -- will be used to, let’s say, either delay or change the government’s announced decisions on the Arnprior dam and also on the Hydro high tension corridor in western Ontario, coming from Douglas Point down into the Wingham area and then over to Georgetown? Can the minister give the House the undertaking that the concept envisaged in the speech, which I believe to be an excellent one, will be used to have an effect on these circumstances, which are about to go forward unless a change in policy is stated?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I agree with the Leader of the Opposition as to the excellence of the concept." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Only if the government is prepared to use it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "It is one we are pioneering to a certain extent with this kind of proposed review agency, Mr. Speaker. It think it is fair to state that if there had been such an agency a period of time ago, some of these projects obviously would have been referred to it. I certainly can’t undertake to the member for Brant that projects already under way would be referred to any environmental review agency.", "I would point out to him -- and I can’t be too specific here -- that a portion of the transmission line as it relates to the corridor referred to has been a matter of study by Dr. Solandt.", "Actually, I think one could say, Mr. Speaker, that the decision --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)", "text": [ "No, not that one." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "-- perhaps not that line, but a part of the connection there with the 500 kv line -- to appoint Dr. Solandt to review the 500 kv corridor from Nanticoke to Pickering is in essence a form of review procedure. As I said to the press two or three days ago, it is our hope that we will have Dr. Solandt’s report very shortly. What will flow from that -- well, electricity ultimately -- in terms of suggested location, I can’t tell the House at this moment; but I think really that is one indication of how this review agency could work.", "The details of the legislation, and the timing of it, Mr. Speaker, are matters of government policy. I would not want to say to the member for Brant, as it relates to projects already under way, that one can reverse the situation and have them a subject of review. There is no question in my mind that certain future transmission corridors obviously would be a matter that would be referred to such a review board." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A supplementary for clarification: Since the high tension line from Douglas Point to Bradley Junction and Georgetown is not under construction, and since it has not been reviewed by Dr. Solandt, does the Premier then mean, since it is not under construction, it will be reviewed? And since Dr. Solandt has been associated, let’s say, with the Georgetown end of it, will the Premier or his minister be asking him to review the alignment that is under discussion, particularly since the farmers have brought forward the information that the present alignment is supposedly using 80 per cent class 1 and 2 land and that an alternative alignment, even proposed by Hydro itself, uses about half that much class 1 and 2 farm land?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I think it’s the kind of thing that it would be perhaps wise to refer to the proposed environmental review board or whatever terminology is used. As I say, there is one aspect of it, and that is the connection with the 500 kv line somewhere in the area in Halton or Peel as it crosses the escarpment. I think this part of it has been a subject of some consideration, but as for the balance of the transmission line location or suggested location it might be handled very properly by the review board.", "This is really what we are endeavouring to do. The only observation I make, Mr. Speaker, in that the Solandt review covered a good portion of the riding that I represent, is that one of the things we must always remember is that, while there may be better places for a transmission line, I am sure there can always be improvements which will satisfy people where the line was perhaps intended to go initially. If it is moved, I am somewhat reconciled to the problem that will be created in the new alignment that is suggested, wherever that may be. This is one of the difficulties that we face." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Hopefully there is an alternative that will not bring that problem forward." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "There are." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "But I can’t find any way to have that particular 500 kv line not cross the county of Peel somewhere." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)", "text": [ "It can’t be done." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "And, unfortunately, I am told it is too expensive to put underground across that great county too." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, as a supplementary, if I can, given the number of angry and anxious meetings held by the farmers with Ontario Hydro over the last several months on the line from Douglas Point to Georgetown, can the Premier give an undertaking, rather than being vague, that the line will not be proceeded with nor will Hydro continue to deal unpredictably, as they have been dealing with the farmers, on dollar amounts and routes, until the government has made an independent study -- independent of Hydro -- or reviewed it all, so that they can be appeased in a way that is not now the case?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I can’t at this stage, without some review of it and until we see the legislation and know how it’s going to work, give that firm a commitment. I think it is obvious that it is the land of situation which the environmental review board or agency, whatever term is used, is anticipated to cover. But to say to the hon. member at this point that I can give a firm commitment, I can’t do that at this moment." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "By way of further supplementary, Mr. Speaker --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "If I can turn to Arnprior --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Who are you recognizing, Mr. Speaker?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I think the hon. Leader of the Opposition. Then I will come back to the hon. member for Ottawa Centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I would like to ask the Premier, since the hearings of necessity under the Expropriations Act are going on right now, today, would he undertake to discuss the matter with the Minister of Energy (Mr. McKeough) as a matter of some priority so that if in fact an objective hearing is decided upon, which is certainly urged by the farmers concerned, that these hearings can be stood down or stopped completely until an objective assessment is available?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, that is certainly an undertaking I can give. I will discuss it with the Minister of Energy very shortly." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker, if I can turn to Arnprior. In view of the fact that the environmental hearing board proposed by the government will not be established for some time, and in view of the fact that about $10 million out of an $82-million project has now been spent -- maybe $7 million or $8 million -- but $70 or $75 million has yet to be spent, will the Premier agree to an independent inquiry into that project because of the valid points which have been made to date about the erosion that may occur behind the dam, about the economic inadequacies of the project, and about the loss and mistreatment of farmers whose land has not yet been expropriated, but which will be flooded by work currently under construction?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I can’t give any such undertaking to have an inquiry related to those matters. I can only say to the hon. member that Ontario Hydro is aware and the government is aware of potential problems that may or may not arise, and obviously they will take these into account. But I must say to the hon. member, we do not propose to have an inquiry in that sense of the word as it relates to the Arnprior project." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. J. Bounsall (Windsor West)", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "One more supplementary. The hon. member for Timiskaming would like a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "Windsor West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Windsor West, I am sorry." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The hon. member for Timiskaming, God forbid." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "With reference to the original question about the line across southwestern Ontario, regarding that portion of in between Wingham junction and Kitchener, would the Premier speak to Hydro with a view to seeing that they purchase only enough land required for the power that can be transmitted along that corridor, which is two lines, rather than the three-line width which they are attempting to purchase?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, my understanding is that a route hasn’t been selected, so I can’t give any commitment on this at all. Quite obviously one can’t do it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "But the Premier knows what width they’re trying to purchase." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "But we don’t know the route." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Leader of the Opposition.", "Interjection by hon. member." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, now that the Minister of Education is in his place, I wonder if he would report to the House on the status of the negotiations in York and in the Windsor area." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. T. L. Wells (Minister of Education)", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would be very pleased to.", "In regard to the York county dispute between the secondary teachers and that board, talks began again this morning and are presently carrying on, with the help of a Ministry of Labour mediator, at the Ministry of Labour offices on University Ave.", "In regard to the Windsor situation, this was something that came up because of a misunderstanding, a misinterpretation, a failing of the two parties to get together on the wording of the final memorandum to send the matters to voluntary arbitration." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "That’s pretty kind. The minister is in a generous mood.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells", "text": [ "The facts of the matter actually are that --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The board is nuts. That’s the fact of the matter." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells", "text": [ "-- an agreement was signed, that I and one of the Ministry of Labour negotiators wrote out on a piece of hotel paper in pencil --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur)", "text": [ "Would the minister care to specify which location and the hotel?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells", "text": [ "I won’t mention the name of the hotel for fear of giving any free publicity." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well, they don’t have to --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Bullbrook (Sarnia)", "text": [ "I’ll bet they’re in the Royal York." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells", "text": [ "No, they aren’t, as a matter of fact. They’re down in the town of my friend’s colleague from Windsor." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "In a non-union hotel, I might say." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells", "text": [ "The actual statement that was signed by both the board and the teachers said that because they had failed to reach any agreement, they would submit the matters still in dispute to arbitration which would be final and binding on both parties. I think there is no question that that was the intent. That was my intent, that was the teachers’ intent and I had assumed it was the board’s intent. There seems to have developed some misunderstanding after that concerning whether an award of a board of arbitration could be appealable or not. Certainly, I have made it very clear to the board that there is no question that an arbitration board set up in a dispute such as this, which is essentially a labour management dispute, is not appealable." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)", "text": [ "Does the minister think they are bargaining in good faith?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells", "text": [ "I think, though, that the matter will be straightened out today. Our people have been meeting with both sides --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "That’s the Windsor matter." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I think he’s right." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells", "text": [ "Yes. Our people have been meeting with both sides and I’m pretty well assured that they will now sign an agreement and will get on with the arbitration." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "What about York?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells", "text": [ "I’m just as hopeful about York." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A supplementary: What about the York business? Has the minister taken part in the negotiations himself? Does he intend to do so? What is the story about these sort of secret meetings that have been reported where the minister does come forward with alternatives but says that he is not participating himself in the negotiations? Why doesn’t he participate?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells", "text": [ "Well actually, Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is -- and I’m sure my friend, if he’s done any of this kind of mediating, knows there are times when I can participate and there are times when I cannot -- I did, in fact, participate in the negotiations toward the end of January --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "He did indeed." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells", "text": [ "Toward the end of January when we were dealing with many of the boards and at that time --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Why didn’t the minister appoint the member for York Centre (Mr. Deacon)?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells", "text": [ "-- we were attempting then to avert --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. A. Grossman (Provincial Secretary for Resources Development)", "text": [ "That would be total failure." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells", "text": [ "We were attempting to avert --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "They could settle a year from now." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells", "text": [ "We were, in fact, attempting to avert a walkout. Unfortunately, at the 11th hour, this just didn’t come about and at that time, as I’m sure the hon. member is very aware, I was very involved and I issued a statement at the end to both parties calling upon them to go to voluntary arbitration, which was rejected and which I also called for because they failed --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "The minister called them both irresponsible." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells", "text": [ "Yes, and I think they both were at that time, because they failed to prevent a walkout by going to voluntary arbitration. I don’t put the blame on either side but that didn’t come about, and I felt it would have been more responsible if the walkout hadn’t occurred --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)", "text": [ "That’s one of the problems." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells", "text": [ "-- and that time arbitration had come about. Once the strike took place it became obvious that for all concerned a negotiated settlement would be a much better arrangement, and certainly there is no place for me in the negotiations that were going on to arrive at a negotiated settlement. The Ministry of Labour mediator, who of course, is also part of the labour-management negotiating process of this government, has been in at all their meetings. As a matter of fact he told me that he spent more time on this dispute than he had on any major labour dispute in this province." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "It shows." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells", "text": [ "He’s still sitting at the table with them and I stand ready to be of help on the thing at any time that I can, but at the moment, I think it is best served to let both the parties, with the Ministry of Labour mediator, carry on negotiations." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A supplementary, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Has the minister informed the board of York county in no uncertain terms that pupil-teacher ratio is a negotiable condition, as he envisages it to be in Bill 275, and should be in this dispute?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have had discussions with the board there. They know my personal opinions and I think it should suffice that that is the extent that I should mention at this time while negotiations are going on." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. M. Deacon (York Centre)", "text": [ "A supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for York Centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "Since there is an indication that the York county school trustees will move to resign tomorrow if a settlement has not been reached, is he prepared to set up a trusteeship in York and get the teachers back in the classrooms pending a new election of trustees?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells", "text": [ "I hate to answer these hypothetical questions." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "I think he needs to now." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells", "text": [ "My friend knows too that there certainly has been no indication from the majority of trustees that they are interested in resigning at this point in time. Now, if they’re all going to tender their resignations, certainly we’ll take steps to see that a new board or new trustees are elected or appointed." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Is the minister in favour of mass resignations in this instance?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Why doesn’t the minister refuse to accept the resignations?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells", "text": [ "But I’d say we’d better wait and see. I might also --" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Do they have the right to strike?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells", "text": [ "I might also indicate to my friend that I think the School Act says that a trustee can only resign with the concurrence of a majority of his colleagues.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "What if they all resign?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells", "text": [ "There’s also something in the School’s Administration Act that prevents everybody from resigning and leaving the board without a quorum." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "How to administer it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "Bill 274A." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Windsor West with a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "With reference to the situation in Windsor, in the last day or two, or even prior to that, has the minister made it very clear to the Windsor separate board that pupil-teacher ratio and working conditions are both proper subject matters for arbitration?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells", "text": [ "No, Mr. Speaker, I have not been asked that question. The only question I have been asked’ is --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "He just was." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells", "text": [ "The only question I have been asked is whether the Arbitrations Act applies to the arbitration in the Windsor situation. We have offered a legal opinion to that board that it does not and that the decision of the board of arbitration is not appealable on the matter of the decision. There are still, of course, certain points of law, human rights and so forth, and any violations of those can be taken to the courts in any situation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "Is the minister not aware that those are the very two areas that the Windsor separate board is wishing to appeal on, should they go to arbitration?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells", "text": [ "No, that has never been made known to me, Mr. Speaker. I understood there were 12 items in dispute that were appended to the recommendation or the agreement that was signed to go to arbitration, and that both parties agreed they were the matters to go to arbitration. I think they are the ones that should go." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "A supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I think perhaps further discussion would only constitute a debate. The hon. Leader of the Opposition?", "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Can I ask the new Minister of Housing, Mr. Speaker, what specifics he has in mind to take the land supply factor out of the cost of housing by 1976?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. S. B. Handleman (Minister of Housing)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, we have made some general statements about our programme in the future, and obviously specifics will be announced in the House in due course." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A supplementary: Since one of the specifics that has already been --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. W. Martel (Sudbury East)", "text": [ "The minister learns fast." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I think it is --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "And the Provincial Secretary for Resources Development isn’t even in the House, Mr. Speaker. Can the minister give us some guarantee that the increase in housing prices in Metropolitan Toronto alone -- which have jumped from $31,357 at the time of the Throne Speech of two years ago to $46,210 at the time of the Throne Speech this week -- will now cease its upward spiral by the announcements he will make, presumably, momentarily?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Let him put his career on the line." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I will guarantee only one thing -- that my ministry will do everything possible to see that that happens." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question: Since one specific figure was mentioned in the speech and that is the funds the government is prepared to commit -- the extra funds it is prepared to commit to servicing land -- is the Minister of Housing satisfied that an extra $15 million -- I believe that was the amount --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "Municipalities haven’t money to service land." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "-- is in fact going to improve the stock of serviced land to the extent that it is going to stabilize prices?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Obviously not." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member will read the speech again, he will note that that was an amount of money which would be spent by my colleague, the Minister of the Environment (Mr. W. Newman). When our estimates are tabled he will see the amount of money that we have in our housing programme." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A supplementary; surely --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Ottawa Centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. M. Johnston (St. Catharines)", "text": [ "Why don’t those members pitch a tent?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, does the minister’s pledge to stabilize the price of land by 1976 mean that, with the present trends of land prices in cities like Toronto and Ottawa, which will lead to the cost of a lot at about $20,000, that will be the price at which he intends to stabilize land prices?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Stabilize at $20,000." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I can’t give the House --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "No, he can’t. The whole Throne Speech was bogus." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "No, I can’t give the House any specifics of a programme which has not yet been announced." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Right. There is no programme." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "When the programme is announced, our goals will be announced at the same time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Downsview." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, by way of supplementary, can the minister tell us if any of the supply of land for the building of the new homes referred to in the Speech from the Throne is going to come from land presently designated as parkway belt? In other words, is the parkway belt going to be removed entirely or in part or interfered with at all?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "He doesn’t know yet." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "He doesn’t know." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the administration of the parkway belt, of course, is not under my ministry.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "There are discussions taking place at the present time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "The minister is trying to get some." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "An announcement will be made in due course." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Johnston", "text": [ "They are going to call them parkway homes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "By way of supplementary: Why, when the minister spoke to the Toronto Real Estate Association on the auspicious occasion of his first public pronouncement --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "His maiden speech." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "-- his maiden speech as a minister, why did the minister say that the government would join with the private sector to create more housing, using precisely the same programme that his predecessor had impugned -- had said didn’t work -- just before he resigned or just before he was moved, before he ascended or whatever he did?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "Shuffled sideways." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I didn’t think this is the occasion to repeat the speech, but for the clarification of the hon. member I did say that it is going to be a tripartite arrangement --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Tripartite?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "-- between the Province of Ontario, the municipalities and the private sector, and when the programme is announced the hon. member will have an opportunity to criticize its specifics." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "One more supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. R. Good (Waterloo North)", "text": [ "Supplementary: Since it was the hon. minister who said in his speech that it was the lack of serviced land which was causing the problem in housing today in the Province of Ontario -- something which we have known here for years --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Didn’t the minister say that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "-- what is he going to do about it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "That is a good question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Stabilize at $25,000." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Just a mild correction. I did say that the lack of serviced land was one of the major factors in the price inflation factor. And what --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Ruston (Essex-Kent)", "text": [ "Better get the shovel out." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "The minister has been reading Hansard." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "-- we are going to do about it, I have already stated, Mr. Speaker; we will announce a programme in due course.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Here is a question for the Minister of Housing he can answer. Is he going to undertake --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Give him a file, he will answer that in due course." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Is he going to use more common sense than the blunderbuss approach of his predecessor and allow for an --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "-- inquiry into the government’s expropriation of land in North Pickering and its suspension of the inquiry procedure under the Expropriations Act, which is surely unprecedented?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "The Minister of the Environment will be interested too." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I believe that is a two-part question.", "In answer to the first part, I never did begin to beat my wife; and the second part, we are studying the question with the North Pickering people at the present time. I’ve already met with them and I believe that they have agreed that the procedure we are now following is almost necessary under the circumstances." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Is the Premier proud of the minister?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "That was question No. 7 on housing. I think we’ve had enough." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "That was a separate question, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Look at what has been asked." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "Will the minister advise us then --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Like an end man in a minstrel show." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "-- whether or not he will pattern his procedure with North Pickering after the procedure used in the airport, where the people have got some advances on land that has been expropriated but where they are not necessarily expropriated until there is a full inquiry and there is a decision by the inquiry?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "That is not right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "It is, it is." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, it is my understanding of the Expropriation Act that a hearing of necessity is only required, or should only be held, when there is a possibility of the hearing being allowed. Under the circumstances -- there being no plan for development, because we wish to involve the people in the area in the developing of the plan -- a hearing of necessity would simply be useless, because it wouldn’t be a plan against which they could appeal." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Oh, Mr. Speaker, as a supplementary --" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "He’s right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "-- the statute requires a hearing of necessity unless the minister removes it in the so-called public interest and a hearing of necessity is to see if the expropriation conforms with the objects required. Now why has the government taken away the right to a formal hearing for all of those people whose land it is expropriating?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I believe I answered that question in my previous remarks." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary: Is it true that the minister’s previous answer indicated that the people who now own the land agree with him that a hearing is not required? Surely that is nonsense?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "That is nonsense." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "That is nonsense." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, what I said was that we have explained to them the reasons why the hearings of necessity were cancelled and they understand the reasons why. I didn’t say that they agreed necessarily with them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Power! Raw power." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, by way of supplementary --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, order. There have been eight or nine supplementaries, which surely must be sufficient.", "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Be my guest." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "How many questions does this fellow get?" ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A question of the Minister of Labour. Is the Minister of Labour aware that Executive Enterprises Inc., based in New York, is having a seminar on how to maintain non-union status -- a union-busting seminar or an effort to prevent unions in Ontario -- at the Royal York Hotel in April of this year and has he looked into their programme?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "George Meany is the guest speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. F. Guindon (Minister of Labour)", "text": [ "No, Mr. Speaker, this is the first time that this has come to my attention." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well, by way of supplementary, when the minister examines it, would he look at the outline of the programme, including topics like “making unions unnecessary” and “preventing the formation of unions” -- and it’s not George Meany who is the guest speaker -- but could the minister ask himself about the --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "-- propriety of a seminar leader, K. B. Dixon, director of personnel, Hamilton Civic Hospitals, and president of the Hospital Personnel Relations Bureau for Ontario; and perhaps that makes it a little clearer to the minister why there is so much discrimination and difficulty in the hospital worker sector in this province.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "I will be glad to look at that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Does the hon. member for Scarborough West have further questions?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Not today, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "If not, I believe the hon. member for Windsor-Walkerville has one." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman (Windsor-Walkerville)", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Labour.", "In light of the ever-rising numbers of unemployed in the automotive industry -- at General Motors and Ford, particularly -- and in light of the fact that there is a continual request of the ministry for overtime, is the minister considering either not issuing any more overtime permits, or at least hingeing the number of overtime permits being given according to some percentage of the number of unemployed in the industry?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Speaker. We have of course, two types of overtime permits. Some have to do with general permits which will allow 100 hours of overtime for employees for one year. We don’t think that this will have any effect at all. However, we also have special permits -- and I’m looking at this at the present time to see if it does affect employment in the area." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for York South." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a question of the Minister of Agriculture and Food: Since the premiers of the four western provinces decided last week at their meeting that they were going to set up a mechanism to review prices for the two major farm inputs of fertilizer and farm machinery in order to protect their farmers, is the Province of Ontario contemplating similar action here -- and if not, why not?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. A. Stewart (Minister of Agriculture and Food)", "text": [ "Well, Mr. Speaker, there is a conference on the fertilizer industry, which is a national conference, that starts here in Toronto on Monday morning next. It will last for two days. But as far as a price review of fertilizer and machinery parts is concerned -- no, we have not contemplated this." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Well, Mr. Speaker, I return if I might by way of supplementary: Obviously the western premiers were aware of this national conference next week and deemed this to be an appropriate action for the protection of their farmers. Does the minister not think there is an obligation on the part of this government to protect Ontario farmers, or is it going to let the governments of western Canada do it incidentally to the extent they can?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "Well, perhaps we’ll see what the results are, Mr. Speaker. Unfortunately, the three western provinces that have NDP governments have never succeeded in anything yet, and I’ll be surprised if they do so on this.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)", "text": [ "It’s almost a political partisan reply." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order. The hon. member for Rainy River." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Supplementary: Is the minister --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Rainy River." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Well, I have a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Well, the hon. member for York South asked a supplementary. I will come back to him." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "But that was a political answer." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Rainy River has a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. T. P. Reid (Rainy River)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the minister being so sharp I hate to take him on, but I wonder if the minister can give us any indication of what his department is doing about the high cost of things like fertilizer and also twine, which I understand is in short supply? And would the minister not agree that the Province of Ontario should have a prices review board in which these prices can be reviewed by a committee of this Legislature to justify the increases in these commodities?" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "It is NDP policy -- the member has taken it up now." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, as all hon. members know, we are vitally concerned in the cost of the inputs of agricultural food production.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "I believe that one of the ways to resolve the matter, as my hon. friend so rightly brings to our attention and with which we are all concerned, is to generate increased sources of supply, and how that is accomplished is the main objective that I would like to see tackled. I believe we have to recognize that for a great many years in the matter of twine, we will say, which is a commodity that very seldom is raised on the floor of this House, is a matter that simply is reflected on the low cost of production over a great many years.", "With the cheap steel prices of a few years ago, Japan went into the production of wire for baling purposes. They undercut all the markets by the introduction of this cheap baler wire. The result was that many of the hemp or twine manufacturing operations just couldn’t compete and they dropped out of the business.", "Along with that, plastic twine came on the market and with the shortage of energy that we are all very much aware of today, the byproducts of the oil industry are not available for the continued manufacture in volume of plastic twine.", "The problem is further complicated, Mr. Speaker, by the fact that steel prices now have escalated. There is a general apparent steel shortage throughout the world. Japan is no longer interested in producing cheap wire twine for baling purposes and that product is off the market.", "Now where do we go? The hemp industry is largely out of business, or at least not in a position to produce as it has been in the past, and with the apparent scarcity the price has escalated to about three times what it was a year ago. Now we are trying to get that resolved.", "Largely the same thing applies as far as fertilizer is concerned and I would hope we would be able to get somewhere with that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for York South has a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "A non-partisan supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to parallel the minister. Since a gentleman by the name of Lougheed was an enthusiastic participant in that decision involving the four western provinces, isn’t it possible that the minister might catch up with him?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. Haggerty (Welland South)", "text": [ "Just for the record, he’s a separatist statesman." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Does the minister mean he is going to do nothing?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Is there any further answer to that supplementary? If not, the hon. member for Ottawa East was on his feet previously." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question of the Minister of Labour.", "Undoubtedly the minister is familiar with the evidence given before the royal commission on organized crime in the construction industry in the Ottawa area. Evidence was given that certain Montreal unions are trying to move into the Ottawa-Hull sector, using intimidation against not only union officials but certain Ottawa contractors. Has the minister considered getting together with his colleague in Quebec, the Hon. Mr. Cournoyer, and possibly working out this problem by attempting to get him to put pressure on unions to stop this intimidation against workers on the Ontario side?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Speaker, I did get in touch with the Minister of Labour and Manpower of Quebec on several occasions already, not only on this matter but on other matters as well." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "By way of supplementary, Mr. Speaker, might I ask the minister to give consideration as well to discussing with that minister the fact that Ontario tradesmen are not allowed to work in the Province of Quebec, whereas the Quebec tradesmen are allowed to work in this province? Would he consider discussing that problem with them, as it is a problem not only in Ottawa-Hull but in the minister’s area of Cornwall?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "That’s right. The problem exists all along the Ottawa River, I would say. I have spoken to the Minister of Labour of Quebec.", "I think it is the intention of the construction industry commission of Quebec to do away with the credit system. It is my understanding that presently there are hearings being held in the Province of Quebec and the Quebec Federation of Labour is, of course, opposing it for perhaps other reasons.", "But in any event, we do correspond and it is my intention to meet with the minister fairly soon to try to resolve this problem. It is really a problem which has existed for some time, but is perhaps more acute in recent months." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Nickel Belt." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. F. Laughren (Nickel Belt)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a question, in the absence of the Minister of Colleges and Universities (Mr. Auld), of the Provincial Secretary for Social Development: Is the provincial secretary aware that a picket line has been set up protesting the makeup of the Public Service Arbitration Board, which was to arbitrate a dispute between the Colleges of Applied Arts and Technology faculties and the Council of Regents representing the Crown?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. M. Birch (Provincial Secretary for Social Development)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of that, but I understand that the Treasurer has a report on that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "Well then, Mr. Speaker; if I could redirect the question to the Treasurer?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Chairman of the Management Board." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)", "text": [ "He’s prepared to answer it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "Chairman of the Management Board?" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "That should be good." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "He is not the Treasurer, he is the Chairman of the Management Board." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "Is the Chairman of the Management Board aware of the picket line that has been set up and why it has been set up? And further, would he make a recommendation, or at least make a commitment, that the Public Service Arbitration Board will be reconstructed in such a way that there will be an appointment from each side in this dispute; and then that the chairman be a mutually-agreeable selection, not one appointed by the government so that it is weighted two to one in favour of the Crown?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, we are aware of the fact that such a picket line has been established outside of the Royal York Hotel where the meetings were arranged to begin, I believe this morning. Prior to the committee convening the picket line was established and the employees’ team that was to discuss the matters currently in dispute decided they would not, under these circumstances, continue.", "Now we, as the government, are satisfied with Judge Anderson. I might say that Judge Anderson was appointed with agreement of the CSAO and the government, and I am confident that he can solve the present matter." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "There are only a few minutes remaining and there are numerous members who want to ask a question. I think, if the members will bear with me, I will restrict the supplementaries at this time. The hon. member for Grey-Bruce is next." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. E. Sargent (Grey-Bruce)", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A question of the Minister of Energy: In view of the minister’s impressive display of knowledge in the debate with Ralph Nader --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "I understand Nader wants to recycle the minister." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Would the minister investigate, if he is concerned enough, why the Atomic Energy Control Board in Ottawa refuses to meet with nuclear scientists in the USA on a TV debate to show the people the danger of radiation and contamination by nuclear power; and secondly, will he tell us the wisdom of investing $38 million in a new coal mine in Green county, Pennsylvania, and consorting with US Steel?", "The minister is talking about cheap power, nuclear power; but a $15 billion programme is $5 million in interest today. How is that cheap power? So those three questions, I would like the minister to answer." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "He has 30 seconds.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. D. McKeough (Minister of Energy)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the answer to the first question, I would suggest, might better be sought by the member from some of his friends in Ottawa. I am certainly not about to answer in this House for the emanations of the Atomic Energy Control Board, which is a federal government board.", "The answer to the second question, as to why we invested $38 million in a coal mine, is because we wanted the coal." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Thunder Bay." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Supplementary." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "I have a question of the Minister of Natural Resources." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "The Minister of Energy didn’t look so good with Nader." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Will the minister undertake to find out why a road that’s under the responsibility of his ministry is not taken care of on weekends, namely the road between Gull Bay and Armstrong? Has he had no complaints that the road is impassable on many weekends because the contract that the ministry has now doesn’t provide for weekend maintenance?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. L. Bernier (Minister of Natural Resources)", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would be glad to do that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Downsview." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Attorney General. Is the Attorney General now able to advise us on results of the police investigation into the statements made by Mr. Ab Shepherd, counsel for the royal commission on building, the inquiry which is being conducted by His Honour Judge Waisberg, concerning gifts made to senior civil servants of the Ontario Housing Corp.? Have any charges been laid, or are there going to be charges laid? Are the terms of reference given to His Honour Judge Waisberg going to be expanded and is there going to be any further investigation ordered by the government into the continuing affairs of the Ontario Housing Corp.?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. R. Welch (Provincial Secretary of Justice and Attorney General)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the subject matter of the hon. member’s question is still being investigated. I am really not prepared to expand on that at this time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "How long does this investigation go on?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch", "text": [ "Until such time as it is completed.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for High Park." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. M. Shulman (High Park)", "text": [ "A question of the Minister of Health, Mr. Speaker. What is the Minister of Health doing about the unrest in the staff at Oak Ridges, as set out in a letter by the Civil Service Association of Ontario last week?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "Just since his appointment, too!" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. F. S. Miller (Minister of Health)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have not as yet had an opportunity to see that letter, but I would be pleased to look into it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for York-Forest Hill." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. P. G. Givens (York-Forest Hill)", "text": [ "Would the Minister of Transportation and Communications explain why there has been a delay in the awarding of the guideway and stations contracts for the Krauss-Maffei experiment at the CNE, which were promised for December and January?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "Because he’s the minister of the automobile." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. R. Rhodes (Minister of Transportation and Communications)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would be glad to take it as notice and perhaps answer later." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "That’s a good idea." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "That shows aplomb." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Sandwich-Riverside." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. F. A. Burr (Sandwich-Riverside)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a question of the Minister of Labour regarding the Workmen’s Compensation Board.", "Has any agreement yet been reached with British Columbia and Quebec to enable Ontario victims of silicosis, whose exposure was in those provinces, to be compensated through the Ontario Workmen’s Compensation Board?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Good question." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I cannot say for sure. Did the hon. member say British Columbia?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Burr", "text": [ "British Columbia and Quebec." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "And Quebec. Well, I know that at one point there had been negotiations with some of the provinces to try to compensate victims of silicosis, based on the number of years or months that they have lived in one province or the other. As of late, I don’t think there has been any change, but it is my understanding that the WCB are still negotiating with some of the provinces." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The time for oral questions has expired." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Could we move to extend it about an hour, Mr. Speaker? We haven’t got anything else to do this afternoon." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I might inform the hon. members that the Clerk has received a question to the Minister of Natural Resources, but the member who placed the question did not indicate his name on the question. Perhaps he would so advise the Clerk.", "Petitions.", "Presenting reports.", "Hon. Mr. White presented the Public Accounts, 1972-1973, volume two, “Financial Statements of Crown Corporations, Boards and Commissions,” and volume three, “Details of Expenditures.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "What does the Treasurer think of the report of the Ontario Economic Council?", "Interjections by hon. members.", "Hon. Mr. Snow presented the report of the Public Service Superannuation Board for the year ended March 31, 1973." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "They’ll never publish another report like that, now that they’re in his ministry." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. W. Snow (Minister of Government Services)", "text": [ "The member had better read those before endorsing them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "That would be critical." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Motions.", "Hon. Mr. Winkler moves that the standing committees of the House for the present session be appointed as follows:", "1. Procedural affairs committee.", "2. Administration of justice committee.", "Committees 1 and 2, combined under the chairmanship of the chairman of the administration of justice committee, will function as the private bills committee.", "3. Social development committee.", "4. Resources development committee.", "5. Miscellaneous estimates committee.", "6. Public accounts committee.", "7. Regulations committee.", "Which said committees shall severally be empowered to examine and inquire into all such matters and things as may be referred to them by the House, provided that all boards and commissions are hereby referred to committees No. 1 to 4 in accordance with the policy areas indicated by the titles of the said committees.", "Public accounts for the last fiscal year are hereby referred to the public accounts committee and all regulations to the regulations committee.", "All standing committees shall report from time to time their observations and opinions on the matters referred to them, with the power to send for persons, papers and records.", "That there be no duplication of membership among committees No. 1 to 4 inclusive, or between committees No. 5 to 7 inclusive.", "That substitutions be permitted on any committee while considering estimates referred to it, provided that notice of the substitution is given to the chairman of the committee prior to commencement of the meeting." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I just want to speak briefly on the motion. We’re aware that, on the recommendation of the Camp commission, an additional whip has been provided for each of the parties with the understanding there is going to be a considerable increase, if we follow the recommendation of the Camp commission, in the work of the committees, something that is, in my view, desirable.", "The point is that these whips are presently available. Their services will, I hope, show an improvement in the work of these committees during this session.", "In specific reference to the work of the committees, I would have this to say. To begin with, the regulations committee has been shown to be completely useless. The terms of reference that have been laid down by the majority on that committee have forbidden the members to examine into the usefulness of the regulations. Their application is only as to whether the statutes to which they refer have specific authority for the promulgating of regulations.", "I think you’re aware, Mr. Speaker, that that committee has been essentially functionless. I stand to be corrected, but I believe that it meets only sufficiently often so that the chairman would get the additional indemnity associated with it. In my view, that committee should have its terms of reference improved, amended and changed so that, in fact, it can review the law-making powers that apparently go to the government with the passage of certain statutes and that show themselves in the formulation of regulations.", "We’re aware in many areas that the lack of regulations prohibits and retards the establishment of the concepts and principles of the laws passed by this Legislature. This apparently is a matter of policy on the part of the government, particularly in the establishment of such things as a new welfare policy. The Minister of Community and Social Services (Mr. Brunelle) is aware, I’m sure, that the postponement of the establishment of these regulations has, in fact, nullified the decisions taken by this House with regard to certain programmes that he himself has put before us. I would say to you, Mr. Speaker, that we should not approve the establishment of a regulations committee unless its terms of reference are brought up to date so that it can be useful.", "The second thing I would like to refer to is the fact that we in this Legislature are going to be concerned not only with important legislation pertaining to education, but also with far-reaching and important legislation pertaining to health services. In both of these particularly important ministries, spending by far the largest share of our provincial budget, there are going to be new pieces of legislation brought forward, compendiums and omnibuses of old legislation with many new principles involved." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Omnibi!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Omnibi? Pardon me! If we are going to have our work in this Legislature restricted by the fact that important legislation, not the least of which is the proposed legislation governing the negotiations between teachers and school boards, is going to be channelled into a bottleneck in a single committee, which is apparently going to have to deal with much more important legislation than any other committee, then the associated public hearings will be inadequate.", "I personally feel, Mr. Speaker, that we should establish a committee on education, and that it is a serious matter indeed that our rules have not provided for this over the last few years. I have spoken about this before, but this year it is particularly necessary, when the school administration statutes are going to be put together, when the bills pertaining to teacher-board negotiations will undoubtedly have lengthy and important public hearings.", "Although a health disciplines Act is not referred to in the Speech from the Throne it is expected to be brought forward. Surely we would be wise indeed if we made an amendment now to the particular motion that the House leader has put before us, setting up committees which could meet concurrently to handle the tremendous load of important legislation which will be put before us.", "I would like, further, to suggest that utilizing Wednesdays for committee work can be justified only if, in fact, we are prepared as a Legislature to send a far higher percentage of bills to standing committee so that the community at large, and experts in particular, can bring forward their own views to the members of the Legislature who have special committee responsibilities. We have been equipped with additional facilities, party by party, to accept these responsibilities.", "We are going to have legislation which will fall particularly heavily on one of these committees -- the social development committee. I would suggest to the House leader that, rather than have an amendment now and a debate on it, he might very well consider taking the steps that I believe will have to be taken some time during the session to establish an additional committee to handle the volume of work expected to be sent to them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I want to make just one comment in one area. I think much of what the Leader of the Opposition said is true. It may well be we are moving towards the position where we will be dealing with much more of the legislation outside of the House than we had in the past. I have argued each year that we should have free substitution on committees, not only in the areas of dealing with estimates but also in dealing with legislation.", "It must be obvious to the government that the opposition, because of its numbers, can’t have a sufficient number of people in any one committee at any given time. Therefore, if there is a bill before a committee that has the responsible member not on the committee, it is extremely difficult for him to be there and to actively take part in the discussion. I have never understood why the government hasn’t agreed to allow for free substitution on any committees, providing that substitution is made prior to the beginning of the sitting on the day in which it is to be applicable.", "I know last year when I raised it the Premier indicated, as did the House leader of the government, there was a possibility that that would be done. It wasn’t done. It has caused us, and I am sure it has caused the official opposition, considerable aggravation. It has even caused the government aggravation. Why not extend that section dealing with substitution to include substitution in the committees for any purpose, provided it is done prior to the beginning of the sitting on the day during which the substitution is applicable? Then we won’t have the hassle, time after time, of worrying and trying to get the appropriate person to the committee to deal with the legislation.", "It seems to me to make a lot of sense. I don’t understand what possible problems it could bring about. I would ask the House leader to accept that very simple change to what he is proposing in order that we can have a more responsive and a more satisfactory working of the various committees dealing with matters that are of importance to the public." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Normally, Mr. Speaker, this is a routine matter, and it goes without too much debate. But during the course of the remarks by the hon. member for Wentworth, my colleague from Waterloo North (Mr. Good) said to me: “Do they want the standing committee system to work or do they not want it to work?”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Who? Me? No, no." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "No, the government. I speak of the government." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Oh, I’m sorry." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "I want to say to you, Mr. Speaker, without reservation, they don’t want it to work.", "I stood in this House some months ago and pointed out that, in 1966, 44 per cent of all legislation went to standing committees. We had the public come before us and make significant input. Think of the Landlord and Tenant Act; think of the Expropriations Act, the Corporations Act, the University of Toronto Act; where we had the public -- lay people and experts -- come before us and assist us in passing legislation. And the legislation was all to the better because of it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "And Arthur Wishart encouraged it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "And Arthur Wishart, who was then Attorney General, encouraged that type of public participation. Now, I want to tell the House what happened under this Premier. In the first year of the Davis regime, nine per cent of all legislation went to standing committees. Let me tell you what happened last year." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "Shameful." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "They should be ashamed." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Three per cent of all bills tabled in this House went to a standing committee. The fact of the matter is -- and the answer to the member for Wentworth is -- the government doesn’t want the standing committees to work. They don’t want any public input. What they want, under the new superstructure of horizontal development put forward by COGP, is the development of some type of think tank. The now Attorney General, as Provincial Secretary for Social Development, certainly did not want, in connection with any of his legislative responsibilities, any public input." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch", "text": [ "That’s irresponsible." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "That is correct. He doesn’t want it. He wants to sit with Wright and these intellectuals upstairs and think in the abstract." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch", "text": [ "One hundred and seventeen of us that have been elected." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Well listen, let me tell the House about the hospital situation in Sarnia. I wrote to him about it and I never even had the courtesy of a reply from him, because when it comes to something that is very practical he doesn’t know what is going on, and I really worry that the justice portfolio might become inert, as social development did under him. We had wonderful Attorneys General here. The minister knows that --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "One has to go back a couple of years to find them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "-- the executive assistant to the Premier was the best we ever had and he was the one who wanted this public --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch", "text": [ "The member is being very personal." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "I am not being personal. I’ve never been personal with the minister in my life. I don’t even know his name; I haven’t called him by name." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch", "text": [ "The member is far too subjective." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "I called him the Provincial Secretary for Social Development. Is that personal?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch", "text": [ "The member is being smart." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Certainly I am being smart. I’m giving the minister the figures." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "I’m giving him the figures that he knows about." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch", "text": [ "Make the point." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Three per cent of all legislation went to standing committees. He doesn’t want the public to be involved." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "He wants that superstructure system --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. G. A. Kerr (Solicitor General)", "text": [ "The member can ask for it to go to standing committee." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "-- that took away, for example, from the cabinet, a very intelligent man --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "That is embarrassing to the Attorney General." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "-- who was sterilized by them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "He is right on, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "I don’t know why we go through this charade of establishing these committees if the government is not going to have the legislation referred to them. Hearken back, if you will, in a moment of seriousness, if that’s possible, to the planning legislation that was debated in this House after being brought in at the eleventh hour -- very significant legislation as far as development in the Province of Ontario is concerned. Did the minister have anything to do with that? I don’t think he did, no." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "He wouldn’t understand it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "But if you recall, we had to attempt to digest that legislation over a two-day period without any issuance of any kind. It was run through by a parliamentary assistant. I remember my colleague from Downsview sitting here and writing, in an extemporaneous fashion, amendments to the bill which were accepted by the parliamentary assistant. Why not give us the opportunity of taking our time, going down before a standing committee? Let the lawyers let the accountants who helped us in the Corporation Act, assist us. Let the lay people who assisted us in the Landlord and Tenant Act assist us again." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Let the public assist us." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Let the public have an opportunity, as they do in Ottawa at the present time, to participate in the legislative process." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "It is fact, as I recall it, Mr. Speaker, that the Planning and Development Act did go to committee." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "No it didn’t." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Yes, with the Treasurer there." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Not to standing committee. It was here, the committee of the whole House." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The committee of the whole House was here." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "No -- the amendments to the Planning Act." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "No, certainly one of those Planning Acts went to the committee." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "It might have been one of the three per cent." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "Look ahead fellows, look ahead." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I think I’m right, Mr. Speaker. I think I am correct." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "I am telling the member he is correct." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "He is telling me I am? If the hon. member for Ottawa East is telling me I am correct, clearly I am. I think that in a sense puts the problem in a nutshell. It isn’t a matter of the percentages, because it is very rarely, if the opposition parties put the pressure on, that the government resists a bill going to committee. There are not that many bills which it refuses to send to committee and I concede that. The problem is that the government sends them to committee at the last minute when there is absolutely no time to mobilize the kind of public contribution which would make the committee process valid.", "My colleague from Windsor West (Mr. Bounsall) reminded me of the Workmen’s Compensation Act amendments, which were very crucial amendments last year. They happened to come up for second reading on a Friday. Only because we had the weekend were we able to arrange for any representatives from the unions or from the injured workmen’s consultants to appear before the committee on the Monday and make representations.", "There is a serious tendency developing in the government -- in fact, it’s kind of a critical failure -- to bring in legislation sufficiently late or sufficiently haphazardly so that the committee work is compressed into a matter of days without any adequate public notification at all. That’s because the government doesn’t see the committee system as a valid system. It sees it as a ritual appendage to the Legislature. If the government saw it as a valid system, this motion today would have in it provision for the kind of support staff for the committee system which would make it work.", "I want to express something else that isn’t often expressed. I saw Douglas Fisher under the gallery, Mr. Speaker, and as I recall, the Camp commission has been sitting now for something more than a year; is that fair? I think it’s something more than a year; significantly more than a year. It bothers me that we come to yet another year and yet another Throne Speech debate and we are still trapped in the old system which all of us find so blessed rigid and frustrating. Nothing has changed in the operation of this agency and its adjuncts; nothing.", "The business of the House is still chaotic. The committee system won’t work any better now than it did before. The legislation isn’t guaranteed in advance. All of the things that we presumed would flow from the Camp commission have not yet flowed. My colleague from Thunder Bay (Mr. Stokes) tells me that the commission is now dealing with the operation of the Legislature and that doubtless the next report will have something to say about the way in which this peculiar structure functions. All right, but we have another whole year on the old basis and that really cripples the parliamentary system around this place.", "The House leader brings in this setup of committees again; it is absolutely no different from the previous year. Everybody knows in advance what an artificial, frustrated nonsensical piece of structure it is and we’ll go through the same confrontation in the House, the last minute ordeals, all the rest of it. The simple truth about it is, apart from the indifference and contempt that it tends to show for some opposition members -- and, I may say, for backbench government members who would like to participate -- what’s really so frustrating about it, the truth that lies behind it is that the government doesn’t see the Legislature of Ontario as an open forum to which the public should have access.", "It is completely indifferent as a government to the emergence of public groups, community-centred groups, pressure groups, all over Ontario. It forces them to mass at Maple Leaf Gardens or on the lawns of Queen’s Park because there is no systematic funnel provided by this House for the expression of citizen discontent. None at all. Only at the 11th hour, under extreme pressure, will the government ever allow a group of people to gather to voice their views. But on really contentious issues, whether it’s land-use planning, regional government -- the regional government bills didn’t go to standing committees for examination; none of them -- or the Workmen’s Compensation Act, for those things there is never time because the government doesn’t see the public dimension of our role.", "That’s the problem with this Legislature. It’s such a kind of self-centred apparatus; so much is focused inward and it so little appreciates that there is a world outside. This little resolution today simply reinforces all the old patterns. This is a privileged club. We open our doors only selectively. We’ll not allow the public to come as of right. They will only be here intermittently by invitation. We will not give to the members of the Legislature the kind of authority to examine legislation which they should have. We don’t believe in public accessibility to the political process. We see ourselves as the perpetuation of divine right, occasionally going to the electorate for approval but largely making decisions independent of their pressure, or forcing them to express their pressure in the most extreme fashion through public demonstration rather than the channels of normal debate.", "It will catch up with the government. Its abuse of the process doesn’t matter. The government has got over 70 seats; the opposition has 40, or 41. But the public will catch up with the government because it can frustrate their interest in social issues only so long before it collapses around its ears -- whether it is North Pickering or whether it is Arnprior, or whether it is transmission corridors, or whether it is Highway 402, or whether it is the Algonquin Wildlands League.", "They are all forced to work out there because the government closed this process up to them which should be theirs, including, let me remind the minister, the incorporation of the town of Durham. That is going to be his personal downfall, because even the Tories in Durham were not consulted in advance of what was done in the regional municipality; nor have they had any access to the Legislature because he would not allow them to go to standing committee, so they are forced to do battle in the courts.", "Does the minister think the use of the public in that fashion -- to force the public to demonstrations and to the courts -- is the proper use of the parliamentary process? The government believes in confrontation; it has become addicted to confrontation. We, on the other hand, believe in moderation. We believe that a more conciliatory approach can be taken." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "What a facetious statement that is." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well, it had a faint ring of unction about it, Mr. Speaker, which I caught myself --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Talk about a credibility gap --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well, and a little problem of credibility. Nonetheless, that is my problem. Mine at least is solvable; the government’s is beyond repair -- and this resolution shows it yet again." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker I have listened, of course, with interest today. It is a little early in the session for me to allow the members across the way to raise any hackles on the back of my neck, but I would like to say to the leader of the Liberal Party in regard to his remarks on the standing committee on regulations, that it is a statutory requirement --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Who makes statutes?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "Now just a moment, will the member let me conclude?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Okay, go ahead." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "That particular situation will have to be changed that way. I assure him that I will take the suggestions that have been made today under consideration and we will bring together at the time of the commission on the Legislature’s report, those matters which we feel are necessary for the proper functioning of this Legislature.", "Mr. Speaker, I will say right now that as far as this government is concerned I think the remarks that were made by the leader of the NDP are totally “facatious.” I don’t think, Mr. Speaker, I don’t think --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Point of order, point of order; point of personal privilege --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "I don’t think, Mr. Speaker, that any government has --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "That may be fallacious, or that may be facetious, but it is not “facatious.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "-- sent more of its ministers and its committees out across this province to communicate with the people; and therefore his argument falls away short." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well, go back to the electors of Durham, but they won’t give the minister a vote; they won’t give him a vote." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "Nor do we allow ourselves to get trapped into the sort of organizational trap that the leader of the NDP is in.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "And let me say a word about the town of Durham. I am continually and totally accessible to the people in Durham, which they know --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The minister is not accessible; they have rejected him." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "-- each and every week of the year. If the member wants to continue with his kind of nonsense they will know he is lying like other people I know as well." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Resign." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, that is all I have to say. But I offer my co-operation on behalf of the government in the suggestions that were made." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "There go the hackles." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "The minister made the same remarks last year -- last year he told us the same thing about --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The electors of Durham will do him in." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "Don’t worry." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I am not --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I am not certain that I heard the comments of the hon. House leader but --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "It is who they vote for that worries me." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "But I think if there had been something wrong the hon. member for Scarborough West would have risen on a point of order.", "Those in favour of the motion will please say “aye.”", "Those opposed will please say “nay.”", "In my opinion, the “ayes” have it.", "Motion agreed to.", "Hon. Mr. Winkler moves that a select committee of 13 members be appointed to prepare and report with all convenient despatch a list of members to compose the standing committees ordered by the House, such committee to be composed as follows:", "Mr. Carruthers. chairman; Messrs. Allan, Deans, Beckett, Henderson, Hodgson (Victoria-Haliburton), MacBeth, Maeck, Newman (Windsor-Walkerville), Smith (Simcoe East), Stokes, Worton and Yakabuski.", "Motion agreed to." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I will move the adjournment of the House." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "What about the business of bills and stuff?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "We were dealing with motions. Introduction of bills." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "If the government doesn’t have any bills ready, we do." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Are there bills to introduce?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Yes, I have a bill, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Sudbury was on his feet with a bill." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. M. C. Germa (Sudbury)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the amendment removes the dental hygienists and the dental technicians from the Denture Therapists Licensing Board and replaces them with two more denture therapists, increasing the number of denture therapists on the board to four.", "In section 2, the amendment removes a requirement that the denture therapists work under the supervision of a dental surgeon. It would also allow the denture therapists to deal directly with the public, but only where the patient can produce a certificate of oral health signed by a dental surgeon or a legally qualified medical practitioner.", "In section 3, the limitation period for commencing a proceeding under clause (b) of subsection 1 of section 16 of the Act is changed from two years to one year.", "And in section 4, the amendment provides that the Lieutenant Governor in Council may make regulations setting fees to be charged by denture therapists." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Germa", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, this bill is complementary to the Denture Therapists Amendment Act, 1974, which would allow denture therapists to deal directly with the public." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this bill is to provide a system in the Province of Ontario whereby people who believe that they have complaints about medical procedures affecting them are going to have available to them, when this bill passes, a board which can review them.", "The board will consist of medical people, legal people, members of the public. The board will have the power to review and suggest remedies and/or award damages. There will be reasonable limitation periods for these complaints to be brought forward. There will be a panel of doctors maintained who will be available to give independent evidence when matters of this sort come up, and who will be available to those people who believe they have complaints to make.", "These suggestions, Mr. Speaker, are not arrived at lightly, but emanate from a series of debates in the estimates of the Minister of Health over several years. The ministry has done nothing in this regard at all. The situation is difficult and presents great hazards to many members of the public who have no way of coping with what they feel on occasion are very serious personal problems. The bill will remedy many of these difficulties." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Orders of the day.", "Hon. Mr. Winkler moves the adjournment of the House.", "Motion agreed to.", "The House adjourned at 3:25 o’clock, p.m." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. W. Ross Macdonald (Lieutenant Governor)", "text": [ "Pray be seated.", "Mr. Speaker and members of the legislative assembly, on behalf of our Sovereign, I welcome you to the opening of the fourth session of the 29th Parliament of Ontario.", "As hon. members were reminded earlier today, continued improvement in the prosperity of our province was slowed to some extent last year by inflation.", "In 1974, the economy of Ontario, as with most of the major economies of the world, is faced with uncertainties of the real and potential impact of the energy situation. In my government’s view, however, the prospects appear more favourable here than elsewhere. Despite projections of slower economic growth this year, combined with the continued rapid growth of the province’s labour force, it is still hoped that the level of employment achieved in 1973, which produced a record of 149,000 new jobs, will be maintained.", "[While my government will employ all practical means at its disposal to alleviate the causes and effects of inflation, nevertheless it bears repeating that the problem can only be dealt with in a national context, with all governments co-operating.", "[In recognition of the fact that science, research and innovation play such an important role in an advanced and diversified economy, the government of Ontario will establish structures to develop and coordinate science policy, both within our province and in co-operation with the government of Canada and other provinces. Strong emphasis will be placed on the practical application of science to maintain our leadership in high-technology industry. This is a key component in my government’s efforts to preserve our national economic independence and to ensure that maximum social benefits are achieved.", "[A comprehensive programme to improve essential services in remote areas of the province will be introduced. This will include an extension of the electrification process, and improved telecommunications, especially for emergency purposes.]", "Improvements in telephone and communications systems in remote areas will benefit the residents and provide a firmer base for economic development. The co-operation of the federal government and of industry will be sought to develop reliable communications systems for the north.", "A feasibility and engineering study will be undertaken for a road link to James Bay through Moosonee. This will include an environmental impact study and full public hearings.", "Priority consideration will be given to the supply of electric power to northern communities. A power line to Moosonee will be the first project in this undertaking.", "Northern communities in unorganized territories will, through enabling legislation, have the opportunity to establish local community councils. Fire protection, water, roads and other such services will become the responsibility of these community councils. Implementation of this plan will follow full consultation with residents of communities that wish to participate.", "[In recognition of the fact that the north, with its great distances, requires a first-rate highway system, high priority has been given to rebuilding and widening Highway 17 between Sault Ste. Marie and Sudbury.", "[Following the success of norOntair, four more communities in northwestern Ontario will receive air services in the first phase of an expansion programme. In addition, funds will be made available for improvements to certain existing airports to bring them up to the standard required for a regular scheduled air service.", "[The Ontario government is negotiating an agreement to participate, through an appropriate agency, in the Polar Gas project to bring natural gas from the Arctic Islands to Ontario.", "[Studies will be made regarding the establishment of a port facility in the James Bay areas to bring potential supplies of gas, oil and minerals from sources in the eastern Arctic.]", "The proposals for energy management announced last June indicated my government’s long-term goals for the continued social, industrial and economic progress of this province. Developments in the Middle East in recent months have further underlined the pressing need for a coordinated energy policy for Canada, which the Ontario government has been urging.", "The government will shortly outline Ontario’s policy on the control and development of uranium as a provincial and national resource.", "A general development agreement between the federal government and the Ontario government has been signed. The agreement has a duration of 10 years and is intended to improve opportunities in those areas of Ontario which are in need of special assistance and to realize greater development potential.", "The community of Cornwall is the first to benefit from this agreement, and joint expenditures of approximately $14 million will be provided for such projects as the completion of servicing for an industrial park, construction of a civic centre, and the development of a tourist and recreational area.", "[Tourist operations, small businesses and service industries will benefit from improved loan programmes and financial assistance from the three provincial development corporations. Operators of small business establishments will receive more help and advice in solving management problems.", "[The Ontario Council for the Arts will undertake a programme through which practising artists in the creative and performing arts may work in and with local communities. Emphasis will be placed on visits to schools in remote areas, and on programmes in public libraries.", "[A wide variety of extension programmes will be offered at provincial cultural facilities. The Art Gallery of Ontario will establish an internship programme to prepare fine arts students for art gallery careers, as well as programmes to promote the visual arts throughout the province.", "[In response to the recommendations of the Commission on Post-Secondary Education, my government proposes to expand academic and cultural opportunities in the open sector. This will include the extension of educational broadcast services within the province, along with the development of new and innovative educational support materials for school and college students as well as for persons learning at home.]", "You will be asked to consider legislation concerning negotiations between the teaching profession and school boards, as well as proposals for the consolidation of all legislation respecting elementary and secondary education.", "In keeping with my government’s determination to introduce programmes on a selective basis to meet those areas of greatest need, an income support programme will be proposed which will assist in achieving a greater measure of security for Ontario’s older citizens and for the disabled.", "A proposal will be made for a prescription drug plan for our senior citizens.", "Ontario’s younger children are presently served by kindergartens, daycare services of approved agencies and special programmes for the handicapped. My government will continue to support these services and will initiate a new programme of assistance for co-operative daycare centres in low-income areas. The use of school and other community facilities for child care will be encouraged, and accommodation and staffing regulations will be reviewed with the aim of removing unnecessary impediments to the creation of new services. Resources will be made available to expand high-priority services such as those for handicapped children, children from low-income families and native children.", "Rehabilitation services will be strengthened to provide assistance to a larger number of physically and mentally disabled persons.", "Special efforts will be made to encourage local initiatives for community-based mental retardation services, including new community residences.", "Amendments to the Health Insurance Act will provide a formal review mechanism for claims for services by non-medical practitioners, paralleling the system now used for claims by physicians.", "The report of the health planning task force, which has been chaired by Dr. Fraser Mustard, has been received by my government. During the course of this session, proposals will be placed before you for further development of a comprehensive health plan for the people of Ontario.", "My government will present proposals for extensive new sports, fitness and recreation programmes that will offer more opportunities for the improved health and enjoyment of the people of Ontario.", "A health education programme will be prepared providing information on such health hazards as alcohol, tobacco and other drugs, arid to encourage better use of our public health care system.", "[You will be asked to approve a major educational and enforcement programme designed to reduce the highway accident toll caused by impaired drivers.", "[With regard to the Ontario Law Reform Commission’s report on administration of the courts, my government will proceed with a planned programme of implementation for judicial areas and for the rotation of judges and trial centres throughout those areas in consultation with those affected.", "[My government is reviewing legislative and common law rules affecting the family as an institution in such matters as occupational and property rights in the home and laws concerning children.", "[A legislative programme will be introduced ensuring that family law in Ontario reflects today’s social and economic realities. The ultimate objective is a code of family law, with special attention to the status of women and for the provision of a legal framework that will strengthen the family unit in our society. Attention will also be given to citifying the legal rights of married persons.", "[My government will create a new office for women Crown employees in order to improve personnel administration and hiring practices.]", "My government intends to promote the development of small community-based adult residences in place of traditional correctional institutions. These centres, will be used in the rehabilitation of selected offenders prior to their release and as residences for those who are working of studying under the temporary absence programme. In northern areas of the province, centres will be located closer to communities with potential employment opportunities.", "A new system will be introduced to place juveniles in training schools closer to their own homes and to provide better integration of group homes, probation, aftercare and institutional services.", "Negotiations are under way for operation and supervision by private business of an industrial enterprise within a correctional centre. This innovative experiment should provide inmates with realistic employment and training experience. The labour force would consist of those serving short terms under minimum custody, who would be paid competitive wages. My government is confident that with the support and co-operation of labour unions and industry, the concept can play a worthwhile part in correctional services in the years ahead.", "My government will introduce legislation with regard to consumer product warranties and guarantees in order to provide better protection for consumers, new redress procedures and more flexible means of administration. Legislation will also be introduced to protect the consumer from unfair and unacceptable trade and business practices.", "Hon. members, you will be asked to consider provisions for the mandatory use of automobile seat belts.", "Legislation will be presented to establish an inter-regional public transportation authority for the Toronto area. My government believes this, legislation will maintain regional autonomy and provide a model that may be adapted to, other areas of the province.", "You will be asked to approve legislation which, will require an environmental assessment of major new development projects.", "A permanent advisory committee on solid waste management will be established in order to achieves, closer consultation with municipal governments, environmental groups arid industry, whose co-operation is essential to the solution of problems created by increasing waste of energy and material resources and the difficulties of waste disposal.", "My government will also propose other measures for the control and reduction of litter and solid waste.", "My government believes that positive steps must be taken to conserve and improve our visual environment. To this end, your views will be sought with respect to placing limitations and controls on outdoor advertising.", "For the second consecutive year, dwelling starts in Ontario have exceeded 100,000 units, a rate of construction which is consistent with the government’s overall objective of one million new dwelling units in 10 years.", "[To assist in this achievement, a wide range of programmes and approaches in housing development and community planning will be proposed, including housing for lower-income earners. These programmes will be implemented within the legislative framework of a revised Planning Act, amendments to the Condominium Act and the establishment of a new building code for Ontario, and will be characterized by a closer partnership with other levels of government, the private sector and citizens’ groups.", "[It is proposed to increase spending on the construction of sewage and water treatment facilities from $81 million in 1973 to $115 million this year. The funds will be used for anti-pollution control and high quality water supply programmes and servicing needs for new home construction.", "[In cases where land is designated by the government for necessary housing or is being held by the private sector for future development, the government will make proposals to ensure continued agricultural production on all suitable lands until they may be required for other purposes.]", "Twenty-three communities have been designated as neighbourhood improvement areas eligible for federal-provincial assistance for planning and improving physical and social facilities. My government will urge the government of Canada to extend assistance for commercial and industrial renewal.", "The private sector, in consultation with local and regional governments, will be encouraged to increase the supply of serviced lots and to work toward stabilization of land and housing prices. The government looks to the private sector for even greater co-operation than in the past in the construction of public housing, involvement with rent supplement and integrated community housing programmes, the preferred lending programme and condominium building, so that the housing needs of a large segment of the population can be met within a moderate price range.", "A provincial home renewal programme will be introduced with grants to homeowners and municipalities for preserving and upgrading the quality of existing housing in rural as well as urban areas.", "Cet automne, le Premier ministre de l’Ontario sera l’hôte de la conférence annuelle des premiers ministres des provinces canadiennes. Cet événement se produit à un moment particulièrement important de notre histoire où, en raison des difficultés qui nous assaillent au Canada et des problèmes de portée internationale, un renouveau de coopération et de compréhension entre les provinces s’impose si nous voulons raffermir notre nation et rehausser notre sentiment national.", "This autumn, the Premier of Ontario will be host to the annual conference of provincial premiers. This comes at a particularly important time in our history when challenges facing us within Canada and problems of world-wide significance will require a new level of interprovincial co-operation and understanding to strengthen our nation and to maintain and enhance our sense of national purpose.", "May Divine Providence guide you in these tasks and in the discharge of your responsibilities.", "Hon. members, I wish to take the opportunity on this occasion to state that it has been my pleasure and privilege to have performed this duty over the past five years. To my successor, one of Ontario’s most renowned and distinguished citizens, may I express all good wishes for her forthcoming term of office.", "God bless the Queen and Canada.", "The Honourable the Lieutenant Governor was then pleased to retire from the chamber.", "Prayers." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "To prevent mistakes, I have obtained a copy of His Honour’s speech, which I will now read." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, if you will permit me, sir; before we go ahead with the usual dispensation I would draw your attention and perhaps to the attention of the Premier that according to the copies of the speech made available there were certain omissions in His Honour’s speech. Perhaps the collation has been faulty and it may be, in fact, that not all of the government’s programme has been presented." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. G. Davis (Premier)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I still think we could dispense with the reading of the Throne Speech. I think there were several matters that perhaps were caught when the pages were being turned. The full text of the Throne Speech will be made available. I really don’t think there is any purpose in rereading it.", "Mr. Speaker, I should hasten to add that doesn’t mean the Throne Speech isn’t worthy of repetition on many occasions." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "It is agreed, then, that the reading of the speech be dispensed with?" ] }, { "speaker": "Some hon. members", "text": [ "Agreed.", "Reading dispensed with." ] } ]

[]