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[ { "speaker": "Mr. T. P. Reid (Rainy River)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I also have a question of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations.", "Does the minister not feel that his officials in the Liquor Licence Board of Ontario made a booboo, if I may use that word --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Watch your language!", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "That was the wrong word." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "-- in their instructions this week to the liquor inspectors to investigate the shows or entertainment, whatever words one wants to use, in licensed lounges? Does the minister not feel that perhaps the tactics of the LLBO, the way they go about almost blackmailing the people holding liquor licences in this province, should be something that should be looked into -- that and their arbitrary methods?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I must object to the tenor of the question put by the member of the Liberal-Labour Party for Rainy River insofar as his reference to blackmail is concerned. I am also grateful for his question on this matter of great public urgency with reference to the Liquor Licence Board of Ontario directive, which went forward this week.", "The directive was issued this week, arising out of a series of complaints. I can assure the House that the basis of one of the complaints was extremely valid; that particular matter has not been completely resolved by the courts, and I can make no further comment on that particular thing.", "I asked the board to review its directive, which was objective, for the simple reason that there were entertainers appearing, according to my information -- and not in lounges; I’m not referring to the straight lounges, I’m talking about dining lounges only -- there were entertainers appearing in dining lounges, described as go-go dancers, who in fact did not remove any particle of their clothing; and the directive as it went forward would preclude that type of entertainment where children were present.", "As far as the other type of entertainment is concerned, there is a valid point to be made that this sort of entertainment should not be available where children under the age of 18, accompanied by their parents, are having a meal." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "They would do better to watch it on Global." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Does the minister not feel that the LLBO is one of the most arbitrary emanations of government in the Province of Ontario?", "Is he aware for instance of a directive that went out some time ago to private clubs in the province saying that they could no longer hold a happy hour and give their members reduced prices on drinks between the hours of five and seven; and that they were not allowed to serve hot hors d’oeuvres to their members. Now, it is things like that that are completely arbitrary and asinine.", "Does the minister not think it’s time that he looked into the whole matter and set down some guidelines for the LLBO, instead of letting them think these things up over coffee or from wherever they come?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "The hon. member has asked three questions -- and my answer to the first two is “no”; and the third one is “yes.” We are in fact reviewing in depth the policies and legislation affecting the LLBO and the LCBO." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Supplementary question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for York South." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "In this critical area of consumer protection that the minister is obviously so preoccupied with at the moment, does the minister not feel that if you want to enforce the law it should be enforced by the front door rather than using liquor regulations to enforce it by the back door?", "If there is a violation of the Criminal Code, whatever the minister’s interpretation or the government’s interpretation of the moral implications of it are, shouldn’t it be enforced through the Criminal Code rather than through the back door on liquor regulations?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I do feel that the provisions of the Criminal Code are most predominant and that charges dealing with indecency or morality should, of course, flow from the Criminal Code and be a matter of jurisdiction for enforcement by the local police. There is no question that my feeling" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Why is the government operating through the back door?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "-- that is number one. In the criminal courts the test, of course, is beyond a reasonable doubt. The standards, insofar as they are imposed by the Liquor Licence Board of Ontario, are not quite as stringent; there is a question of public taste. When we receive complaints, through that board, from bona fide members of the public objecting to certain performances --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "What is a bona fide member of the public?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "-- in a dining lounge where children are present, I take the position the board has every right to demonstrate through its directives and instructions the standard that it expects from a person holding a licence in this province." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Rainy River." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "Can the minister explain what a bona fide member of the public is; and alternately what a non-bona fide member of the public is?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "The president of the local Tory riding association." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "I will demonstrate that by saying a complaint which is not originated or encouraged by, perhaps a competitor; that’s what I mean by a bona fide member of the public. Sometimes complaints come in and we check them out and find that in fact they have emanated from someone who has a vested interest in a similar type of organization." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Like the police." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Therefore I don’t, as an individual, place as much credibility on that type of complaint as I would on one originating from a member of the general public." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for High Park." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Can the minister explain how the Liquor Licence Board of Ontario has assumed authority, without anything in the Act giving it that authority, not only on censorship but also on building standards and on advertising?", "Does the minister know that Chief Mackey -- “Boss” Mackey -- has issued instructions that people who have licences under the Liquor Licence Act may no longer advertise that they sell liquor? Is he aware of that? And that the owners of Maxwell’s Plum were called down because they used the word “drink” in their advertisement. What authority do they have to assume these: “I am the law; I am the law,” tactics of “Boss” Mackey?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, any commission board or ministry operates on the basis of statutory legislation, regulations made under the statute and by policy directives." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "There are no regulations for that." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "There is nothing unique about this; and if a policy is codified and is inflexible then it has to apply to all. Very often some of these things must be slightly inflexible because of particular problems in a particular area.", "Therefore the policy matters are within the scope of the board, and if policy directives go forward and work very well and the public is aware of the policy -- and I think this is the root of the problem; that often policy goes forward from boards and commissions and the public are not aware. I am sympathetic to the public. I would like to see most policies resolved into regulations if at all possible. Sometimes it is impossible to do that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "These policies come out of Mackey’s wet dreams." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Kent." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. J. P. Spence (Kent)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the provincial Treasurer.", "Is the minister aware of the large number of municipalities that have sent in official plans -- some of them as far back as October, 1973 -- and have not had approval as yet? As this is causing delay in work in towns, when will these official plans be approved by the Treasurer’s department?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. White (Treasurer, Minister of Economics and Intergovernmental Affairs)", "text": [ "Well, sir, as of Jan. 8 this responsibility went to the Ministry of Housing, so I guess the precise answer to the member’s question is never, insofar as I am concerned." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "That’s the Treasurer’s answer to everything." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "The member might redirect the question to the Minister of Housing (Mr. Handleman) and get a better answer than that though." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Spence", "text": [ "Well, I refer my question to the Minister of Housing." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "He’s not here." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I think the hon. member might put his question at another time when the minister is here.", "The hon. member for Sudbury East." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "A question of the Minister of the Environment. Has he found a replacement yet for Mr. Ross MacKenzie in the Sudbury area?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman (Minister of the Environment)", "text": [ "No, we haven’t replaced him as yet." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "I think they are getting somebody from Algoma." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Kitchener is next." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a question of the Premier: Can the Premier give us any preliminary information or a progress report on the operation of the commission dealing with redistribution within the Legislature? And can he advise us if there is any consideration being given for the holding of public hearings, at least on a regional basis, and the amending of the terms of reference for the commission in that regard?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "I hope Hansard got that." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I can only report to the members of the House that the commission is obviously making progress. I think the general pattern that will be followed will be for their preliminary report to be made available to the House, after which time there will be opportunities for discussion, by some members I am sure and members of the public, before it is then returned here for final passage. I can’t tell the hon. member the exact date, but I think it is perhaps only three or four weeks away." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Sandwich-Riverside." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Burr", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations. Has the minister any plans for maintaining law and order on tonight’s train from Windsor --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Did the member for Scarborough West hear what he said? Law and order!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "What? Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "The member for Sandwich-Riverside caused the problem." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "From Windsor or to Windsor?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Burr", "text": [ "-- from Windsor to Toronto --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "What are the minister’s plans there?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Burr", "text": [ "-- by enforcing the province’s liquor regulations?" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Oh!", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "I am astounded to learn from the tenor of the hon. member’s question that law and order is not being applied. I just received a complaint, as I take it from the member for High Park, regarding the application of law and order. I am not aware of any breaches of the Liquor Control Act.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "If the member will draw them to my attention --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "No, no; the misapplication of law and order -- the misapplication." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "-- I will certainly undertake to see that they are looked into. Could the member let me know what the matters are of which he complains on that particular train? I have never been on the train; I may want to go on it.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "That will only compound the difficulty." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Ruston", "text": [ "Must have been streakers through the bar.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Burr", "text": [ "As a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Burr", "text": [ "-- does the minister forget the correspondence we have had on this matter?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I forget a lot of things and if I have overlooked it I apologize to the member. I don’t recollect it at this particular moment and I will look into it. I am sorry but, no, I don’t recollect it.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "The minister had only 12 letters. One of the minister’s parliamentary assistants has taken over." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for York Centre." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "A question of the Premier: Since the imposition of the ministerial order on the noise lands in the proposed Pickering airport was a provincial action, does the Premier intend to require the federal government to pay owners affected for the rights that have been denied them for the last two years or to lift the order now that this form of discrimination is becoming such a burden on the people affected?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would only pass an uninformed legal opinion. I would suggest the hon. member might ask the question of the Attorney General (Mr. Welch), who I think would take it as notice. I question whether this province can order the federal government to pay compensation to anybody." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "Supplementary: Since the action is a provincial action that was taken only by the province and is its own decision; and since that is a form of discrimination and the province has the right to lift that order any time it wishes, will the province lift the order since the federal government has not provided for compensation?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, contrary, I’m sure, to the view of some on occasion, this government does try to co-operate with our federal government." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "The Premier is talking out of both sides of his mouth." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "The federal government has asked that these orders be placed on, if, by some chance, that area does become an international airport. I think there is wisdom, not for a prolonged period of time but for a period of time, in having this form of order there.", "It’s very difficult. We would prefer not to do it. We would prefer that the federal government, quite frankly, assume the responsibility, but it doesn’t have, I assume, the legal right to do so. If the hon. member is saying to us lift the order and let the federal government then solve its own problems, I find that an interesting suggestion." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "Supplementary: Does the Premier not realize that, in view of his power to impose this order, he has the right to demand of the federal government compensation for those affected? Why doesn’t he talk through just one side of his mouth instead of two sides at one time?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would only say to the hon. member opposite that if there is anybody who knows how to talk in a hypocritical sense on certain very important issues it is that particular member. He can talk to us about this difficult issue where we are trying to co-operate with the federal government, but he shouldn’t come into this House and say that I am talking out of both sides of my mouth after what he did in relation to the York county school situation --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "-- seize the board one day and local autonomy the next day." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "It shouldn’t be allowed." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The Premier pays him. I know he pays him." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have question of the Minister of Transportation and Communications, although under standing order 27(j), he might wish to refer the question to the member for Fort William (Mr. Jessiman), the chairman of the Ontario Northland Transportation Commission.", "In view of the fact that the government’s intentions in the Throne Speech indicated an end to the communications problems in the remote communities in northern Ontario; in view of the fact that the minister made a statement very recently in which he said: “Once and for all, a communications remoteness of the communities of northern Ontario will be ended”; in view of the fact that the Northern Telephone Co., a private enterprise --" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Owned by the Bell." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "-- has agreed to establish an exchange in the community of Shining Tree in the riding of Nickel Belt; and in view of the fact that Ontario Hydro have agreed to let the Ontario Northland use their lines if they wished; how is it then, that the Ontario Northland has refused to establish the toll lines into the community of Shining Tree so that people in the community could have communication, not only among themselves, but with the outside world as well?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "It is like an amendment to the Throne Speech." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. M. Havrot (Timiskaming)", "text": [ "It is like communicating with smoke signals." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, could the hon. member repeat the question?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "There are only 30 seconds remaining." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, obviously the answer to that would take more than 30 seconds and I would like to take time to get the information. I’m not familiar with the problem he is talking about." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Downsview, 25 seconds." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Attorney General. Could the Attorney General tell us what savings he has been able to effect since he became at the same time the Provincial Secretary for Justice and the Attorney General, since now there is only one minister instead of two, and since now there is only one deputy minister instead of two? How much of the $358,000 set aside for the office of the Provincial Secretary for Justice has been saved since this great event took place?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "There are 10 seconds remaining." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. R. Welch (Provincial Secretary for Justice and Attorney General)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would be very glad to share that information with the hon. member when we go through our estimates." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The time for oral questions has expired.", "Petitions.", "Presenting reports." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, yesterday I gave an answer to a question asked earlier by the hon. member for Scarborough West dealing with a caution filed with respect to certain lands in some 110 townships in the district of Nipissing by the Bear Island Foundation. The hon. member for Riverdale (Mr. Renwick) asked if I would table a copy of that caution, which I am very pleased to do this morning." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Motions.", "Hon. Mr. White moves, seconded by Mr. Winkler, that the Treasurer of Ontario be authorized to pay the salaries of the civil service and other necessary payments pending the voting of supply for the fiscal year commencing April 1, 1974, such payments to be charged to the proper appropriations following the voting of supply." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, briefly on the motion, I would like to point out to you, sir, as I have in the past, that I am not aware that all other democratic jurisdictions use this procedure. In fact, it simply means that our discussions of the estimates for the next many months tend to be somewhat academic since the approval of the estimates and the right to pay the moneys out of them are granted by way of this fairly routine motion -- or it has been routine in the past -- to the Treasurer.", "In other jurisdictions, as I understand it, there is approval given but not for the full year’s expenditure. It is on a monthly basis, I believe, in the House of Commons and it is therefore necessary for the Treasurer or a representative of the government to come before the House at regular intervals to get an extension of the authority to pay if the estimates have not, at that time, been approved.", "I am not prepared to offer any substantial objection other than that, Mr. Speaker, and other than that perhaps the Treasurer might do a survey of the procedures in other legislatures and parliaments, because it seems to me that the rights of the House are somewhat seriously infringed when we pass a blanket motion of a routine nature, such as this, which gives the right to spend the whole blooming $7 billion to $8 billion without any power to hold back by the House in the long run." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "Sir, I am interested in these comments. I thought this was the practice in the British parliamentary system throughout the world. I do not see any obvious advantage to bringing in a motion like this once a quarter or once a month. I do point out that the estimates, while they won’t be concluded until perhaps next October or November, will be approved progressively and to that extent the dependence upon this motion is thereby diminished. However, I will accept the suggestion made by the Leader of the Opposition to see what the practice is elsewhere and see if this can, indeed, be improved upon.", "Motion agreed to." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Introduction of bills.", "Orders of the day." ] }, { "speaker": "Clerk of the House", "text": [ "The first order, resuming the adjourned debate on the amendment to the amendment to the motion for an address in reply to the speech of the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor at the opening of the session." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Algoma." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Gilbertson (Algoma)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, it is a privilege for me this morning to participate in the Throne debate. I must say I wasn’t really anticipating coming on so soon. But Friday mornings sometimes are a little bit difficult -- some of the speakers are not ready -- so I thought I would get up and make a few comments.", "First, Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased that you are back in the Speaker’s chair. I knew you had a difficult time; you had a period of illness but I know I express the views of this House when I say how pleased we are to see you back in the chair and performing your function in a very efficient way, as usual.", "Then, Mr. Speaker, as we all realize, there has been quite a shuffling in the cabinet --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)", "text": [ "Yes, of course." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "-- and I want to congratulate everyone who has been promoted to cabinet posts." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. P. D. Lawlor (Lakeshore)", "text": [ "Congratulate those who have been demoted." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "And also I want to congratulate those who didn’t get promotions who have taken it so well, I don’t see anybody disgruntled around here at all." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "I have never seen so many unhappy faces. They wept for two days." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "There is more than the one who is disappointed." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "They are not even here this morning." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have been very interested and quite enthused about some of the rumblings that I have been hearing about nuclear plants being established through the various parts of the Province of Ontario. I have invited one of these nuclear plants to be established somewhere along the north shore in the riding of Algoma." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. P. Morningstar (Welland)", "text": [ "Great stuff." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "It is something that we know would be quite a boon to the economy. And it is something that we need, because certain parts along the north shore are rather depressed areas where we need some more labour incentives and so on. I am sure that the minister will look favourably on establishing a nuclear plant in the Thessalon-Blind River area. They can even come up to Bruce Mines, Desbarats, or right over to St. Joseph island.", "Now that we have such an extensive maple syrup industry there, we could use a secondary industry such as a nuclear plant." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. H. C. Parrott (Oxford)", "text": [ "Where are the samples?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Morningstar", "text": [ "No samples?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "And I am pleased with various things that are happening in the riding of Algoma. Not very long ago I had the privilege of announcing a sawmill operation that’s going into White River. It is a $9 mil- lion enterprise and is needed up in that part of the riding. I am very pleased that this is going to become a reality." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Morningstar", "text": [ "Good government." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "And there are rumblings from other industries --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. F. Laughren (Nickel Belt)", "text": [ "There are rumblings in the PC Tory organization." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "Well, I think the rumblings in the PC organization are not too bad. They are favourable rumblings." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "We are just hoping they are not too bad. We don’t want any palace revolution in Algoma, thank you very much. We are supporting the member. We have signed a lot of people into the Tory party to make sure he gets the nomination." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "Well, I am going to tell the members something. I appreciate any support, whether it comes from the NDP or the Liberals --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I can understand that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "-- or whoever it comes from. I am sure --" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "And the member for Algoma gets it all, too, doesn’t he?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "When you get a plurality like I got in Algoma, there have got to be some NDP and some Liberals who vote for me.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "You know there’s the old saying that the brass is getting too far away from the grass. Well, you can’t say that in the Algoma riding, because I am right with the grass roots of the people." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Morningstar", "text": [ "Great." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "They ask: “Where is he? What has he been doing?”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "Oh, yes, well, of course this is a good opportunity for the leader of the NDP to throw in a little flak because he knows that the interjections go into Hansard and he is trying to discredit me." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Oh, no. Shame, shame. I love the member for Algoma." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "Yes, I know he does. He loves me but he would hate like everything for me to get re-elected again." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "That’s exactly right. I would like that in Hansard. I think there should be a change in Algoma." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "Does the hon. member for Scarborough --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "-- West -- realize how close he was to not being in here at all?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I won by 170 votes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "That’s right. But in the previous election I think the member got a plurality of about 6,000 or 7,000." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Just about. Well, I like the rhythm of fluctuation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "He wants to live dangerously. The member for Algoma is too safe." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Imagine talking about a nuclear plant for Blind River when the Minister of Energy (Mr. McKeough) said a couple of months ago that it was Hydro’s decision. It was 10 years away. What about the --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please. The member from Algoma has the floor." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "What about a serious thing for the people of the members’ community? Come on, now. Let’s talk about real things." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "The leader of the NDP is always so pessimistic." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Talk about reality." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "He is too pessimistic." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Would the member for Algoma speak to the chair, please?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Call him into line." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. H. Jessiman (Fort William)", "text": [ "The member for Scarborough West will be leaving." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I hope so." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am pleased that one of the cabinet ministers who was appointed just recently was the hon. member for Sault Ste. Marie (Mr. Rhodes). It couldn’t be more appropriate than to have “Rhodes for roads.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "That’s another desperate effort to hold a seat." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "He will, though." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "Well look, one has to be political and astute. The member knows that himself. Does he think we’re stupid?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "As a matter of fact, I think the member is a smart executive director. I mean it in a generic sense.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West thinks that way because I’m a backbencher from up in the north, the place where he’s going to try to get votes. The way he treats me will be the way he treats the people up in Algoma." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The way I treat the member?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "I’m their representative." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I treat you all right, my friend!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "I’m the representative --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "He certainly is!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "-- for the riding of Algoma, and I’m representing the people." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. D. Kennedy (Peel South)", "text": [ "And a good one." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "I think I’m doing a fair job and the people know it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "I think my leader treats the member for Algoma with a commendable courtesy, considering everything." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "Now, we have quite a lot of things that we want to get accomplished up there in the north. We’ve got a lot of things done, but the north is just now starting to really get into its own." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "Oh, it’s really moving ahead. Let’s hear it!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "We’ve got some good cabinet men up there. We have the hon. member for Kenora (Mr. Bernier) in Natural Resources.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "And the people over there have always been saying that we should have people from the north representing the north." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "He is pretty much of a disaster, too." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "That’s right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "Now, I couldn’t think of a better setup than to have the hon. member for Kenora there as Minister of Natural Resources." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "I could, without any imagination at all." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "Because we have all the lumbering --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "If the member takes our views he will be all right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "He’s in the pocket of the big guys up there." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "-- and logging operations and the minerals and all that up there." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "He’s a big guy himself." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "And then I couldn’t think of a better person than the hon. member for Cochrane North (Mr. Brunelle) to represent Community and Social Services." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Morningstar", "text": [ "Doing a good job!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "The north is getting on the map." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Is this the epitaph for the Tories in northern Ontario? Is this the last word?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "And then I think of the hon. member for Fort William, chairman of Ontario Northland, another northerner." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "He has done enough for their image." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Morningstar", "text": [ "Good job! A great member!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "A sinecure if I ever heard of one." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "He even put a telephone in Shining Tree.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "And then I also think of the --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "They even have a special boxcar he rides in!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, another prominent member, too, is the hon. member for Algoma-Manitoulin (Mr. Lane).", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "What is this fellow doing? He’s getting a great big new ferry to service the Bruce Peninsula from South Baymouth to Tobermory --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. R. Good (Waterloo North)", "text": [ "The member for Grey-Bruce (Mr. Sargent) arranged that. Don’t be so stupid." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "-- just to bring more tourist dollars up into that area there, and it’s a great thing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "The hon. member for Grey-Bruce arranged that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "Hey, did the member ever get a bridge to get the people off Manitoulin Island? He got one to get them on." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Morningstar", "text": [ "Oh, yes. He got it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "No, no. The member is talking about St. Joseph Island." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "Oh, yes.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I want to speak on behalf of the people of Algoma, and especially of St. Joseph Island. And a big thank-you to this government for that bridge across to St. Joseph Island." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. Haggerty (Well and South)", "text": [ "What did they do with the ferry?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "I must say, Mr. Speaker, that that was a political football. It didn’t matter what politician came over to St. Joseph Island --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Indeed it was." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "-- to solicit votes. It started back in 1890 when we first had our bridge committee there. And after that, when an election came up, every politician said St. Joseph Island was going to get a bridge. It never materialized until we finally got a member from St. Joseph Island in the Legislature of Ontario. The bridge is there. We’re using it. And we all appreciate it very much." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Morningstar", "text": [ "“Bernt Gilbertson,” “Bernt Gilbertson.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "By the way --" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "It’s called the “Bernt Gilbertson” span." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Does my friend know he left one of his northern members out?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "I’m going to get back to him too." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The member is going to get back to him?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "I think my friend is thinking of the member for Thunder Bay (Mr. Stokes)." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "No, I’m not. The member left one of his Tory members out. It’s kind of an interesting oversight. Tuck it away and think about whom he missed." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "Let’s see now -- I started at Kenora, and I kept coming down to Fort William --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Right. He’s stuck up there on Maple Mountain somewhere. Remember that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "I know who the member means." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Yes?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "He’s sort of from northeastern Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I see. So is the Minister of Community and Social Services." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "All right. I’d say that the hon. member for Timiskaming (Mr. Havrot) is doing a terrific job." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Oh good, good." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "He’s doing a terrific job -- and I’m sure hon. members will agree with me." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "Now the member loses credibility. He had been doing pretty good until now, but he has lost contact with the grass roots again." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "No, he’s got contacts with the grass roots." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "I might say, Mr. Speaker, that in my seven years in the Legislature I’ve seen a lot of things accomplished. There have been a lot of changes in northwestern Ontario and in northern Ontario.", "I think, for instance, of the various highways that we have established there; there is one in particular that helps me out and I use considerably, Highway 631 from White River to Hornepayne. It runs from Highway 17 right through to Highway 11. Hornepayne is located right in the middle between those two highways. Before that highway was established, I would either have had to fly in or drive 265 miles around from White River. Now it’s only 61 miles across. In an hour and a quarter or so I can make it over into Hornepayne.", "I think also of the various hamlets in my riding. I don’t have any big towns. I’m very concerned about the economies of places like Hornepayne. They have to depend mainly upon the CN railway, but they have a very prominent lumbering operation there and, to a certain extent, it’s the lifeline of Hornepayne. I would appreciate very much seeing that this lumbering operation continues for years to come. This company is working on a sustained yield. They’re working on the basis of perpetuation. One can go over some of their cut-over limits and see the second growth coming up. This is the way we should operate --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "Who planted them?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "-- and I’m sure the minister agrees with me, that this sustained yield and the perpetuation of our forests are things of which we should be more aware. I think we should be more aware of the perpetuation of our forests, not just in the type of operation we have in northwestern Ontario, where they depend mainly on jackpine, spruce and other softwood species but also, I think, in our hardwoods operation.", "I think we should operate with the perpetuation of the forests in mind. We should take care that we don’t go in and just ruin the forest without being concerned about the upcoming younger growth, because in that area it would probably take 50 years I would say, for a tree to grow to 6 in. in diameter. We need to be careful that we don’t set back 50 years of growth when we’re harvesting the forests. I think this is something of which lumber operators should be very much aware, and we should be sensible about the way we take out our timber and look after our resources.", "I might say that another thing which I think is very good is that, as members know, a few years ago a lot of the gold mines closed down because they couldn’t operate. They were just marginal, they weren’t making any profit and many of the mines had to phase out. But now, with the price of gold, several of these gold mines are being revived and this is a good thing because in a riding such as mine we depend on the natural resources.", "There is an awful lot of good potential in the copper ore deposits up there. There may not be anyone big enough to set up a large operation but if we had some type of a smelter located where we could take these small deposits it would help out the little fellow. I can’t help thinking about the member for Welland; he often brings it up when he gets up to speak. He says we have got to look after the little fellow and this is what we need to do in a riding such as mine. We may not have very many big fellows but we have a lot of little ones." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. P. MacBeth (York West)", "text": [ "The member is a big fellow." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "These are the kind of people I like to take care of and like to assist." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Morningstar", "text": [ "You bet." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "I don’t know how long I have been speaking, Mr. Speaker --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Morningstar", "text": [ "More, more; he is doing well." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "-- but I don’t mind it a bit because I think my people in my area want their member to get up and represent them. It is one thing to do a lot of constituency work but one has to be heard from time to time in the Legislature and make it known to the members and the whole of Ontario what our government is doing, and to present our needs as well." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "And what it is not doing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "I believe in the saying, “Ask and ye shall receive; seek and ye shall find. Knock and it shall be opened unto you.” I do knocking on doors and I do seeking and I must say that I do some finding." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "The Premier (Mr. Davis) is not the member’s heavenly father." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "Would he repeat that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "No, I won’t." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "I believe in a heavenly father." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "I said the Premier is not his heavenly father." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "No, but he comes next." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "That’s pretty good." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "That is something I was almost omitting. One of the most important things is to compliment our Premier for the great job he has been doing. It is a very difficult job and it is very hard in this day and age when people are so unsettled and it seems as though we are all getting greedier all the time. We want, we want, we want. Let us not forget that the tax money we are working with comes out of the people’s pockets and whatever we want has to be paid for somewhere along the line. I think we have a Premier who, I feel, is running this province in a very efficient way.", "I want to congratulate our Minister of Education (Mr. Wells) for the wonderful job he did through the difficult situation that arose with the teachers --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "Which he created." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "-- especially in North York. I am pleased that so many teachers and school boards got their grievances settled." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "He needs a little congratulation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "I felt that the minister conducted himself very well through a difficult job." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "The member must be looking for a cabinet post." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "Now I am only a backbencher --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacBeth", "text": [ "He is in the front bench now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "-- but I have been impressed -- there are certain things that a cabinet minister does which will impress one, either favourably or unfavourably -- and I say in this particular case, the minister went away up in my estimation with the way he handled the situation.", "Our government, from time to time, will have to take stands and make decisions which may not be the popular things to do but are the right things to do. I am pleased when a member will stand up and say, regardless of what the consequences are, “I feel that this is the right thing to do. Whether it is going to affect us adversely politically or not, we are going to do it because it is right.”", "That is the kind of government that the Conservative government has been." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "They won’t do it again before the next election." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "This is the way we have performed for over 30 years. I believe that the people of Ontario are convinced that we are doing a good job. How do we prove it? Because we have been re-elected." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Year after year." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "The government is beginning to wind down a bit now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "It is going to go the other way." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "I’m sure there are enough sensible people in Ontario who know when the government is doing a good job and when it is not." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "The member is right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "The government just spends more money than anybody else; that’s all." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "I just happened to notice across the way the member for Armourdale (Mr. Carton), who has decided that he is not going to continue in politics too much longer." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. T. P. Reid (Rainy River)", "text": [ "Neither will the member for Algoma." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "I must say that I must congratulate the former Minister of Transportation and Communications for the fine job that he was doing in his department." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "If only the government had recognized it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "There is one thing that I am pleased about and I’ll never forget it. On that bridge going across to St. Joseph Island there is a beautiful bronze plaque and it has on it “the Hon. Gordon Carton and MPP Bernt Gilbertson.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "Which is more important?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "We’ll put a wreath up under it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "And that is a monument for years to come. I thank the minister for finding the time to come up and help us to celebrate the official opening of that bridge." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "But did the member for Armourdale get the oil painting in his office?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "There will be projects that are similar to that and we’ll continue to do these kinds of things for the people of the north.", "So, Mr. Speaker, without any further ado, I think I’ll just take my seat and thank you --" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Tell us about the Algoma Central Railway." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "That’s a good idea." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "-- for this opportunity to speak this morning." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The member for Waterloo North." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. R. Good (Waterloo North)", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It seems I always get the tough acts to follow. When I made my maiden speech I had to follow the member for High Park (Mr. Shulman) back about seven years ago. Today it is the member for Algoma (Mr. Gilbertson). I don’t know which is the worse." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. H. C. Parrott (Oxford)", "text": [ "Does the member ever think of himself as a loser?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "There are just three things, Mr. Speaker, about which I would like to speak. First of all, I would like to say something regarding one aspect of the second report of the Ontario commission on the Legislature.", "There is only one section of this second report about which I would like to say a few words, and that deals with services for the caucuses. The commission says it recognizes:", "The reality that there could be no practical way of equalizing the resources available to a government caucus with that of an opposition caucus. [It goes on to say] In the determining of allocations of resources between government and opposition, this allocation should not preclude however, steps being taken which at least create a greater equity in the matter of resources. It is the commission’s conclusion, based upon an analysis of the present caucus grants, that they are deficient in providing opposition parties with adequate funds relating to their functional requirements. It could be said that the present grants allow the opposition parties to employ secretarial help for members, that they allow some administrative staff but do not provide a sufficient range of services.", "The funds allow the caucuses to establish some research facilities but not of sufficient depth and professional competence and that the grants enable the opposition parties to offer some communications facilities to their members but of a primitive and restrictive nature and inferior to that enjoyed by government members.", "Presently, Mr. Speaker, as you know, Mr. Speaker allows $11,000 per member for each of the opposition parties for all members’ services, plus a fixed fee to run a leader’s office. And I might say, Mr. Speaker, that the fixed fee to run the leader’s office is about comparable to one public relations officer’s salary in the Premier’s department.", "The commission believes, however, that the opposition parties in the Legislature should have a research capability considerably greater than that which they presently manage to achieve out of their caucus allotment. The commission states:", "We reach this conclusion not simply because the parties themselves have earnestly argued it, but because we believe it is in the interests of the legislative process and the general public interest that the research capacity of opposition members be improved.", "It is unfortunate, Mr. Speaker, that the members’ allowances must be reduced sufficiently to run other services -- that is research facilities, as well as other administrative personnel.", "Present research budgets for the opposition parties run between $40,000 and $50,000. I am sure it is obvious to all that, of necessity, opposition parties’ research budgets must be considerably higher than that of the government members’ caucus because, as the commission states, the government caucus has available to it the research resources of the ministry wherever reasonably required, just as it enjoys the value of ministerial briefings supported by the experts or consultants who have been employed in the process. This, then, results in the amount of information available to government members being more or less equal to their need for it. It is understandable that opposition members lack such access, and, indeed, it would be questionable if they would wish it, even if it were available.", "“It is surely basic to their function,” the commission states, “that they have independent resources which, if unequal in number, need not lack in quality.”", "Finally, Mr. Speaker, the commission proposed that each of the opposition caucuses be provided with funds specifically designated for the purpose of improving their research capability:", "We would recommend that the caucus of the official opposition be given, for research purposes, an annual budget of $125,000, and the NDP caucus be given an annual budget of $90,000 for comparable purposes in the research field.", "While I am not here to justify or argue the specific amounts recommended by the commission, I think it must be obvious to the cabinet and to government that if the opposition parties to the provincial Legislature are to fulfill the purposes for which they have been elected, increases in the research grants must be made as soon as possible.", "Mr. Speaker, it is unacceptable to us, as members of an opposition caucus, and I am sure it would be unacceptable to the electors of the Province of Ontario, that in order to provide proper research facilities we must reduce our secretarial allowance by a substantial amount. I make this plea as the caucus member of the Liberal Party responsible for the organization and operation of our research department. While there are other equally important and valuable recommendations in the second report of the Ontario commission on the Legislature, I feel that the expansion of research facilities by opposition caucuses must rank high in priority for government action.", "Mr. Speaker, I would like to make short reference in my speech as well to the matter of hydro transmission lines across the Province of Ontario.", "As most of us now know, Ontario Hydro is in the midst of planning a new transmission system across southern Ontario which will eventually connect to northern Ontario. This system will be completed by 1978 and will have a tremendous environmental impact on the areas through which it passes. It will include a transmission corridor running from Lennox, near Kingston, on the east to the Hamilton area on the west. From this corridor lines connect to generating stations at Nanticoke and Bruce, to consumption areas in the vicinity of London and Kitchener, and to northern Ontario. This power transmission system will interconnect with the major generating stations and centres of consumption and also with power systems of Quebec, Manitoba, New York and Michigan.", "One can scarcely realize the seriousness of this tremendous project. One needs only to look at a map of the existing power corridors to realize that Ontario Hydro’s transmission lines always went the shortest route between two points that were to be connected.", "This method of construction, of course, is no longer good enough. It is only about six years ago that Ontario Hydro first realized that transmission lines could be bent and because of their environmental impact, Mr. Speaker, they must be bent and made to go through areas where they will do the least amount of damage -- visual, ecological and physical -- to agricultural areas.", "The main emphasis regarding finding a suitable route has been that from Nanticoke to Pickering. The environmental assessment impact of this route has been under study for some time by Dr. O. M. Solandt who headed a royal commission to inquire into the best possible route for this transmission line. His report was tabled just a few weeks ago in the Legislature and he does in fact recommend a considerably different route from that which was the choice of Hydro. He has, as we all had hoped, recommended the passage of the line through a great deal of the parkway belt area.", "Other routes, Mr. Speaker, and particularly the Bradley junction to Georgetown route, have not been so favourably designated and the environmental studies have been of an in-house nature done by Hydro itself. The impact and effect of this route in Hydro’s procedures thus far were well documented the other day by the member for Huron-Bruce (Mr. Gaunt).", "The inadequacies of existing procedures is alarming. One finds many discrepancies in their maps which show potential routes for transmission lines.", "Mr. Speaker, the need for a permanent environmental impact assessment body is most apparent, especially when one considers these huge hydro corridors of 500, 600 and 700 ft wide, cutting across our province from one end to the other, connected by interconnecting links.", "In 1971, that’s over three years ago, the Environmental Protection Act was passed and provision was made for a similar agency called an environmental council. Again, in 1973 in the Speech from the Throne the government said that it would place before us “legislation to establish a permanent agency for environmental protection, having the responsibility for a comprehensive system of assessment and evaluation of the environmental significance of activities of ministries of the government, utilities, projects funded in part by the government and related activities in the private sector which have comparable environmental implications.”", "This, Mr. Speaker, is a fine-sounding phrase, but once again the government only talks about protecting the environment and has done nothing with public involvement up to this present time." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "That’s very true." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "To add insult to injury, Mr. Speaker, again this year the Throne Speech said we will be asked to approve legislation which will require an environmental assessment of major new development projects. How this government can come before the people three times in four years with promises of this nature still to be fulfilled is beyond belief. The Premier (Mr. Davis), indicated in the Legislature a few weeks ago that the Bradley-Georgetown transmission line would not come under study by any outside environmental body; that the Arnprior dam project would be excluded from independent environmental impact assessment. So only the Solandt commission has had any independent influence on Hydro’s actions thus far in this great, important corridor grid that it is planning, for completion by 1978.", "Mr. Speaker, this is just not good enough. The least that the people of Ontario should expect and should receive is that the Ministry of the Environment would take a look at the environmental studies done by Hydro on the Georgetown-Bradley route. The farmers and conservationists alike are convinced that the proposed routes are not being designed in the best possible manner to conserve our good farmland.", "As an example the proposal for a connecting link between the transformer station marked as No. 60 and the Detweiler transformer station cuts in a straight line through the best farming land in Wellesley township. While this is just one proposal it is inconceivable to me that Hydro should ever even consider such a route. As I said before, Mr. Speaker, Ontario Hydro is a novice at designing transmission lines which will least affect our environment. It was not until six years ago at the Six Nations Indian Reserve that it first met a group of people who said, “You cannot put your line across our property.” That line was the first one that had to be bent.", "I would most sincerely request, Mr. Speaker, that the Ministry of the Environment take immediate steps to review and, where necessary, amend the work that has already been done in the proposal through the study area, Bradley to Georgetown.", "Mr. Speaker, the third area about which I would like to speak is that of the housing crisis in the Province of Ontario at the present time.", "Not many years ago about 85 per cent of the people in the cities of Waterloo and Kitchener owned their own homes. Now, of course, this is a thing of the past. These municipalities had, perhaps, the highest percentage of home ownerships of anywhere in the province. Ownership of a home is a social benefit which should be available to any working person who so desires and, of course, we know there are many reasons why this is no longer possible." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. F. Laughren (Nickel Belt)", "text": [ "Yes. like the federal government refusing to make available --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "Cost is now prohibitive except for persons with above-average incomes.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "A single-family home is for many, I think, the most desirable type of accommodation. A recent survey of the social planning council of Metro Toronto said --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "Talk about hypocrisy -- the Liberal Party talking about housing problems. How ridiculous! Let them freeze the mortgage rate at six per cent if they are so concerned." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "-- that 67 per cent of persons living in highrise --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "Do the members want to listen for a while?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. T. P. Reid (Rainy River)", "text": [ "The NDP voted for it this week in the House of Commons." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "A single-family home, Mr. Speaker, for many is the most desirable type of accommodation. Recent surveys of the social planning council of Metro Toronto said that 67 per cent of persons living in highrises at present had grown up in the homes owned by their families." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "None of them is going to vote Liberal." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Ruston (Essex-Kent)", "text": [ "They won’t vote for characters like the member anyway." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "People have been forced into highrises because other types of suitable housing are simply not available. In the survey 57.5 per cent of persons wanted to move out of highrise accommodation within two years, they hoped. The most frequent reason given for having to stay in highrise was because it was the best type of accommodation they could afford.", "In this same survey 75 per cent of the families agreed that the family is under more stress and there are more problems concerning children, they felt, while living in highrise accommodation and apartment accommodation than there would be if they were living in their own single, detached, family home. Of those people wishing to vacate highrise -- or hoping to -- within the next two years, 82.5 per cent said they would prefer a single-family detached house and this is especially true among families where there were children.", "The report reads as follows regarding the highrise environment for children: One of the most persistent criticisms of the highrise environment is its alleged unsuitability for children. This aspect of the common stereotype of apartment living was confirmed to some extent by the respondents. A majority of respondents indicated that their ability to supervise their children was not affected by living in an apartment particularly, and half said that the building created no difficulties for their children in their present life-style. However, the restrictions on children’s noisy activity; the feeling that children would be freer and less restricted in a single family home; the worry about their children’s safety; the negative attitudes towards raising children in apartments; the suggestion that children’s facilities and programmes would improve the building for family living -- all point to a dissatisfaction with the highrise apartment as a setting for raising children.", "The report, in another section, indicated that two-thirds of pre-school children living in highrise apartments had to play in their own unit. Of the children in an older age group, the percentage was somewhat less, about 50 per cent.", "There are many social benefits, I feel, for living in a single-family home. Community interest is much greater. It has been shown that people living in highrise apartments live more to themselves. There’s no fraternization among people living in highrise apartments such as exists with people living in single-family homes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)", "text": [ "The member obviously has never been to St. James Town." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "It has been shown by many surveys that many people living in highrise apartments want to retain their own privacy, a desire which does not exist among those living in neighbourhoods.", "Open space is something which is very important when we talk about children. The report states as follows:", "Supplementary interviews reflected the opinions generally current in the community that living in highrise apartments can be harmful to social and family life. The image of the isolated and alienated apartment dweller, with children physically and emotionally affected by an unnatural life-style, is commonly held by both professional and lay people and voiced in journals and the daily press.", "Mr. Speaker, I know that everyone cannot and does not want to live in a single-family home. As the situation now is, those who wish to live in a single-family home can’t afford it.", "Apart from the social benefits, which I personally and many other agree do accrue to a person living in other than highrise apartments, there are other benefits which are of an economic nature. While it is true that one can scarcely afford to buy a home, I believe it is equally true that one can scarcely afford not to be buying a home. For many people, the only hedge they can have against inflation is the ownership of a home.", "Home ownership represents a combination of rent and savings plus an increase in the equity position that that owner will enjoy as values rise. Employees moving from one city to another can hardly afford not to have a house to sell if they wish to buy one in a new location. The unfortunate condition which exists here, Mr. Speaker, is the wide disparity in housing costs from one part of the country to another.", "A report recently released showed that it was almost impossible for a person who was transferred to Metropolitan Toronto, say, from Saskatoon or some other smaller community, to begin to buy a house when he arrived in Toronto with the equity position he had in his house in the smaller community.", "We have all seen the ads of a few years ago, reading: “Own a piece of Canada.” Well, it’s a very appealing slogan; I think it’s something everyone would like to do but very few people can afford to do. It warms the heart of any person who has never enjoyed that position. I think it should be our right, here in Ontario, for more people to own a piece of Ontario.", "I think a personal residence is the one piece of property that is the most desirable and it is the one asset that a person can have legitimately. It provides a roof over his head. It provides him with a hedge against the inflation that is going to take place. It’s just very unfortunate, in my view, that this should be the preserve of the wealthy. I feel that more, if not all people should reap the benefits of prosperity and have at least one buffer against inflation which is going on.", "I would like to refer, Mr. Speaker, to an article of March 28, 1974 in the Kitchener-Waterloo Record. It says:", "Pity the family with three or four children in the market for a two- or three-bedroom single family dwelling. Their horror reading these days consists of scanning the properties for sale in the Record want ads. In 70 per cent of the cases new houses are beyond their financial reach. Those who waited for prices to drop or wanted to save a little more before plunking their nest eggs as a down payment for a house were horrified to learn that housing in this area [this is the Kitchener-Waterloo area] went up 28 per cent in 12 months.", "In some local cases, single-family dwellings rose 50 per cent. And there’s more to come. Real estate people and house builders say single-family dwellings and semi-detached houses will likely rise between 10 and 15 per cent again this year.", "There are a number of reasons why house prices have been skyrocketing in only one year. They include the lack of serviced land, lengthy delays and miles of red tape required in subdivision approval, rising costs of lots, material and labour.", "Among the greatest contributing factors, according to Joseph Silaschi, president of Reliable Construction, a house building company, are the shortage of serviced land and the time required to register a subdivision plan. The developer has to pay additional interest and pay his staffs. This all adds to final cost of lots and buildings. Mr. Silaschi’s company is now building homes in Guelph, and since last September he says the price of a lot has risen $4,200 to $18,800 now for a 50 by 100 ft lot.", "He said Kitchener-Waterloo’s scheme to slow down residential growth by failing to expand sewage treatment facilities and holding up subdivision is hurting a lot of small people. Surely the people in authority knew five years ago that Kitchener-Waterloo would grow and need additional sewage facilities. Why weren’t plans made at that time?", "Well, this is something I’d like to get to a little later.", "John F. Halsworth, president of the KW Housing and Urban Development Association, describes the red tape and delays in registering plans of subdivisions today as “phenomenal.” Dutchman Homes, he said, applied for registration of its 125-acre Laurentian Hills single-family, three- and four-bedroom home subdivision on Ottawa St., south of Westmount Rd., four years ago. The stamp of approval finally came, and the company will be starting to put up $35,000 to $50,000 homes this year. The longer the delays the more the homes will cost.", "Mr. Halsworth and others in the house building and real estate business say the fastest way to make a dollar these days is to buy any kind of single-family home and turn around and sell it the next day.", "And he gives a few examples, and this is something I’d like to make some reference to here; the matter of speculating on residential property, both before and after the houses are built.", "A three-bedroom home with fireplace and garage in Cambridge was recently sold by the builder for $34,000. The buyer didn’t even bother moving in. He listed it, and five days later sold it for $46,900." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. Haggerty (Welland South)", "text": [ "Where’s the capital gains tax?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "He said there are dozens of examples of this happening all over the Kitchener-Waterloo and Guelph-Cambridge area. People themselves are inflating house prices. It’s not caused by the builder. The average Joe is a speculator today.", "Mr. Speaker, this is something that has been going on in our area, and you being a resident of the Waterloo region are as well aware of it as I am." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "Don’t bring him into the politics of it, he’s the Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)", "text": [ "No slum landlord." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "There is much frustration among the municipalities who tried to provide low-cost housing in the private sector by special agreements with developers. These are called special development homes.", "Kitchener and Elmira have both been quite successful in building these development homes. They will draw up an agreement with the developer and say that in his plan of subdivision they want him to provide a certain number of 40-ft lots with somewhat fewer services and build houses -- and with the maximum sale price of the houses to be established before the agreement was reached.", "This operated quite satisfactorily up until the past year, but since there is such an extreme housing crunch at the present time we find that people are buying these houses on speculation, never moving in and reselling them within a matter of days and making profits of $5,000 to $10,000.", "One home on Strathcona Cres. in Kitchener -- a special development home built on a smaller lot and at a fixed maximum price -- was sold for $24,480 by the builder. It was immediately resold for $35,000. Two other units in Forest Heights which were special development homes were sold by the builder for $22,100 and resold shortly after, one at $27,700 and the other one for $27,900.", "I understand the city of Kitchener is bringing in a private bill which, hopefully, can stop this practice and make some claim on that property so that the person buying it is buying it as a bona fide resident of that home.", "Ontario Housing Corp., I understand, is the only agency at the present time which can have this particular guarantee when they sell a house. I understand that some loophole has even been found around their hold on that property. I think, Mr. Speaker, it’s just unacceptable that there should be ways by which people can speculate on private residences when we are in such an emergency situation, especially in our low-cost housing.", "It was about a little more than a year ago when the housing prices in Toronto were first brought to my attention. A young lawyer, who happens to work in government, told me --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Where has the member been since 1967? It has been a problem all that time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "He told me how bad the situation was in Toronto. When a house was advertised for $49,900, he and his wife went out to look at it. They took a look at it and said that they would like to make an offer. The realtor suggested to them that he thought their bid should be about $52,000 or $52,500, then they might have a chance to get it.", "He related to me that he could scarcely believe that this is what was going on. If you want to bid on a house you don’t bid on it at the advertised’ price, or below the advertised price -- which was normal for many years. Now you have to bid somewhat above the advertised price to even have a hope of getting it.", "He put in a bid, I think, for $52,500, but the house was sold for $54,500 and, unfortunately, he didn’t get it.", "The cause of this type of situation which now exists in the “twin city” is very apparent. It’s simply a lack of housing. Instead of the situation which existed a few years ago in my own area where you had two or three houses for every buyer, you now have three or four buyers for every house that’s available on the market. People are desperate. And, of course, they are most desperate in the city of Toronto. But this spill-over has now come into the Kitchener-Waterloo area.", "Mr. Speaker, in the Peel Village development in the city of Cambridge, I understand that 70 per cent of the sales in that area are to persons who are working in Metropolitan Toronto. The crunch is coming in the Kitchener-Waterloo area for several reasons. First of all, it is estimated presently that homes in the Kitchener-Waterloo region are at least $10,000 below a comparable home in Metropolitan Toronto. Many people say that the difference is closer to $15,000.", "Mr. Speaker, the Toronto-centred region plan, in my view, was a farce. It has done nothing for the decentralization of population from Metro. It has only been talk, cheap government talk, and hasn’t done one thing to take the housing squeeze off Metropolitan Toronto. And those of us in the outlying areas are now feeling the results of the Metro housing squeeze, which has been on for some years.", "The Kitchener-Waterloo area was designated in the Toronto-centred region plan as a normal slow growth area; nothing would be done to stimulate the growth in the Kitchener-Waterloo area because it presently was big enough. We were told the K-W area was not going to be a dormitory community for Metropolitan Toronto. However, there has been no effective government action to do anything about relieving the pressures here, so consequently we in the Waterloo region are now very quickly becoming a dormitory community for Metropolitan Toronto, and with that situation a whole new set of problems has developed.", "The Cedarwood development in North Pickering is certainly not an answer to taking the expansion off Metropolitan Toronto. It will just expand Metropolitan Toronto, because it is simply an attachment to one side of it.", "The idea was good, but the OHC land assemblage generally has not been doing the job of providing housing. We look at the 3,000 acres of farm land that was assembled in Waterloo region. The land, has been assembled for over five years. There hasn’t been one house built. There has been three-quarters of a million dollars spent on a study which would decide what was to be done with the land, but as yet all that has been accomplished is that the assembly of that land has driven up the price of adjacent land.", "I believe the government has its priorities in the wrong place. There is a crying and desperate need for serviced land. Serviced land in Ontario is more important than projects like Maple Mountain. It is more important than Ontario Place and more important than large new government offices. If we are going to adequately provide housing for the people in Ontario, if we are going to give the average working person in Ontario the opportunity to own a piece of Ontario, to have a little equity in the province, to have a little hedge against inflation, we have got to give an opportunity to the average working person to be able to buy his own house. If the $9 million that was spent on the OHC’s land assembly in Waterloo region five years ago had been used to provide services we would not be in our present position.", "This, Mr. Speaker, is an emergency situation. Any price can be asked for a commodity that is in short supply. Speculation on residential houses is unacceptable. Speculation on residential land is unacceptable in our present emergency situation. I feel that those who develop land and provide services need to hold land. They certainly can’t operate without an inventory of land." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Why doesn’t the member get his buddies to get a tax on in Ottawa?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "My quarrel is with the turnover of land, the shuffling of paper, and the passage of money before development takes place. This must be controlled, either by the employment of a windfall tax or through a special classification regarding property taxes, to discourage sales except by bona fide farmers to people who will develop and provide houses. There are areas, Mr. Speaker, in southern Ontario which I think could and should be used for residential development. There are still areas that have never been touched by a plough.", "I don’t think we have to continue to develop our cities, which are generally situated in the best farming land within the province. The government must take immediate action to preserve our farm land and promote development areas in other than class 1 and class 2 agricultural land. The present method of providing services is unacceptable. The credit of the province must be what is at stake to provide service, and services can only be provided if the province is ready to infuse large sums of provincial money into the provision of services. There has to be control on the low-price residential housing so that speculation in low-price residential housing will cease and so that the people of Ontario can have their rightful position -- that is, of owning their own home or owning a piece of Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Ottawa Centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to talk about housing as well and I will wind up this portion of my speech by talking a bit about some of the things that we consider should be done. I would say to the member who has just spoken that it surprises and alarms me that he has only recently become aware of the fact that there is a housing problem in Metro Toronto and other parts of the province." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. Haggerty (Welland South)", "text": [ "Where was the member in 1968?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "In 1968? In 1968 I was in Ottawa trying to get a New Democrat elected." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "He didn’t say that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Well, he says he just learned about it. Secondly, his party in Ottawa has got taxing powers which would allow the kind of taxes that he has just begun to talk about.", "The kind of dramatic conversion that we heard today from the Liberal Party, which is for the first time advocating rent review or rent control and in the second place is beginning now to talk a much tougher line on speculation, is welcome but is very belated, Mr. Speaker.", "May I just start out by congratulating you in the regular way for the manner in which you carry out your office, Mr. Speaker. I think we’ll look forward with interest, not only to your work in the House but also to the way in which you carry on your new responsibilities under the Camp commission report. Now that you have full control or will be gaining, I understand, full control over the legislative precincts, I would hope on behalf of all members of all parties in the House that that control will shortly extend to the restaurant as well as the other facilities of this particular building.", "Mr. Speaker, the Throne Speech was a grave disappointment, particularly because of the degree of pre-selling that had been done in the area of housing. The government in the Throne Speech, as it wound up, had nothing to offer and nothing to say. They indicated that they were complacent and that they accepted the fact that since housing was going ahead at a rate of over 100,000 per year in the province that that was fine and there wasn’t any real particular problem. The government reiterated its view that it will trust the private sector to handle Ontario’s housing problems such as they exist.", "The private sector, the Throne Speech said, would be encouraged to increase the supply of serviced lots and to work towards stabilization of land and housing prices. The government looks to the private sector for even greater co-operation than in the past in the construction of public housing and in involvement with rent supplement and in greater community housing programmes, and so on and so forth.", "But the gist of the whole thing was that this government doesn’t believe there is a real housing problem. It doesn’t believe in the near crisis that was referred to by the Comay task force. It doesn’t believe in the reports, such as the recent one that has come in from the social planning council on the rent race and the effects it is having on low-income families, both those on public assistance and those who are simply earning a low income because of inadequate incomes in this city and in this province. It doesn’t believe there is any problem.", "The members of the government are clearly insulated from the problem. They live very comfortably, I suppose, in houses that they bought some years ago. They enjoy handsome incomes and they are above the whole situation. The government, Mr. Speaker, is locked in, I would maintain, with the private development industry. It is displaying an iniquitous degree of over-gratitude for the contributions that have been made to the Conservative Party in the past by the development industry and it is simply incapable of taking any effective action as far as housing.", "This came after promise after promise that indicated something bold, brave and new would be coming forward in the field of housing. The Ottawa Citizen’s response to that after the Throne Speech was, “Well, where is it?” We are at a loss to know where it is. We know where the problems are in every major city in the province, Mr. Speaker, but we simply don’t know where the solutions are from this government.", "It is unusual and rather intriguing that just shortly after the Throne Speech when the new minister gave his first address as Minister of Housing (Mr. Handleman) that one of his fellow speakers was the president of a real estate company and the president of a development company, Mr. Brian Magee, who is also president of the Canadian Real Estate Association. And that fellow who is locked right inside the whole system is now telling the government that there is a crisis and that somebody had better get his finger out and do something about it. But the last person to act, the last person to believe that action is necessary, Mr. Speaker, is the new Minister of Housing.", "It is a housing price crisis, he says, in the first interview he gave to the Globe and Mail, that organ of the government, the kind of Pravda of Ontario society. It is a housing price crisis and it stems from psychology and not shortages, says the new minister. It isn’t like 1948, he says; 1948 being, I presume, the year that he first established with his family and began to look for a house.", "The government isn’t going to take over Meridian, it isn’t going to move into the development industry, but it’s going to do something about land speculation. And if one wants to sum up what the new Minister of Housing intends to do about speculation it goes like this: He is going to go up and down the province, and every time he can get two or three land speculators together, he is going to pull them into a corner and say, “Boo!” He is going to hope that somehow that will have an effect on land speculation.", "That, Mr. Speaker, is the limit and the end of the programme that seems to be advanced by the minister. He says that he hopes he can scare people into getting out of land and getting stocks and bonds and other kinds of investment instead of into land.", "I think that there are a couple of fundamental problems with that. One is the tenaciousness of the land speculator, which seems to me to have been proven over the last 25 years in Ontario. We have had these creatures with us for a long time, and they have been becoming particularly objectionable and particularly active over the last two or three years.", "In the second place, Mr. Speaker, we happen to be, as I know some of the members on that side are aware and as I am sure the member for High Park (Mr. Shulman) is aware, in a period of rampant, two-figure inflation -- 9, 9½, 10 per cent a year. It’s a period when people from Vancouver are writing bestsellers telling the public to put their money into Swiss francs and other currencies that are heavily backed by gold because currencies like the Canadian dollar, they claim, are not backed by gold and therefore are weak and subject to even greater inflation.", "It’s a period, classically, when people with assets, with money, are looking for an inflation hedge. The three classic hedges against inflation, Mr. Speaker, are gold, works of art and real estate. Since gold and works of art are items or artefacts that are basically not available to the average investor in Ontario, he turns to real estate. And so long as there is not just a speculative philosophy or psychology in the housing market but an inflation psychology in the country, which is backed by rampant inflation, people will be going into real estate at a tremendous kind of pace.", "It takes far more than a minister to say “Boo!” and to hope that somehow these nasty boys will go away and we will return to pre-crisis or pre-inflation conditions. It just isn’t going to happen. In fact, Mr. Speaker, the need for tough action is doubled and re- doubled at the present time because there are so many people, be they doctors, lawyers, Conservatives, former transportation ministers or whatever, who have some spare dollars and are looking for safe havens for them and see the real estate market as a place to put them.", "The minister, in his psychology as well, has repeatedly indicated several things. He is very surprised to have the job. He didn’t want it. He has no knowledge about it. He’s not even aware, I noticed, of the housing market in his own municipality. He said the other day, in one of the early interviews, that as far as he was concerned, he wasn’t familiar with tenant problems, because he didn’t have that many apartments in his own riding.", "The minister has something over 10,000 people living in apartments in his own riding, in areas such as along Meadowlands Dr. and in Bayshore, and as I understand it, apartments are increasingly a part of his riding. He also has a large number of townhouse developments which are rental projects, which are also within his riding. But he obviously doesn’t mix with that group in society.", "He says that as far as he is concerned one of the fundamental areas of concern to Ontario citizens in housing -- that is, their situation as tenants and their protection from rapacious landlords -- is not a housing problem but is a consumer problem and he’s going to shuffle it off to the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations (Mr. Clement). I really don’t accept the fact, says the minister, that the people who live in apartment units should control them. They shouldn’t call the shots. But when you look at it in detail, what the minister is saying is not just that they shouldn’t call the shots but they should have no protection at all, and that for a consumer to buy housing it is in no different a light, as far as he is concerned, as the same chap going down the road to buy a bunch of bananas or to decide which bicycle to buy for his teenage son or perhaps to buy a new automobile.", "The market is everything. The market will deliver. He puts his trust in the free market and that’s it, baby. That’s as far as we are going to get with this particular minister.", "One would hope that somewhere within the government, Mr. Speaker, perhaps in the mind of the Treasurer (Mr. White), perhaps in the mind of the Premier (Mr. Davis) himself, there is a recognition that whatever the basic ideology of the government is -- and we all know that the ideology is to leave things up to the private sector -- the housing crisis has gotten too far and that what is now needed is very, very massive, substantial public intervention in order to ensure to every Ontario citizen the right to housing at a price that he can afford.", "Look what the minister himself admits in the speech he gave to the real estate board. Five hundred and sixty thousand Ontario citizens, he says, are earning less than $8,000 a year and are paying more than half of that income for housing. That means that one family in 12 -- possibly more, depending on how those figures are put together -- in the province pays more than one-half of its income in housing.", "It makes the figures that the social planning council came up with today pale by comparison. These are Housing ministry figures. The minister admits that their own figures in the government indicate that land costs have gone up by 200 per cent in the 12 major cities of Ontario between 1961 and 1971. And anybody who follows these things knows that the big escalation of land costs has occurred since the re-election of the Davis government in October of 1971.", "That’s the basic position. What’s the government doing about it? Well, says the minister, we are going to widen the housing advisory committee. It will still predominantly represent developers but we’re going to put a few architects and people like that on it. Well, he says in conjunction with the Treasurer, when we get all the p’s and q’s ready and the t’s crossed and the i’s dotted, we may permit some municipalities land banking powers. That comes, what? -- a year and a half, two years after those powers began to be sought by various municipalities around the province. In fact, it’s much longer that the idea has been broached by various municipal leaders. They haven’t been able to get very far because they knew the ideology of this particular government.", "Ironically, land banking has been permitted and encouraged by the government for many years when it was municipal land banking to create industrial estates or industrial parks. A subsidy to get a new industry was okay as far as the government was concerned, but a move to control land costs for the housing consumer wasn’t okay because it interfered with the sacred property rights of the developers who were the government’s friends.", "Now, the third thing is the housing action programme. This is where the government intends that the private sector will be enlisted in order to solve the housing problem. Well, we’ve been waiting, Mr. Speaker, since September for something on that housing action programme. And the delays go on and on and on, and as yet we have nothing at all. During that period from September until March, a period of seven months -- as my leader was reminding the Legislature the other day -- the cost of housing in Toronto has gone up from about $43,000 on resales to about $47,000; that’s $500 to $1,000 a month. I’m not sure what the rate is now. It has been zooming up at an incredible rate; and that has been happening elsewhere across the province.", "When the minister spoke to the real estate boys he said, “Don’t worry, guys. We are not going to be nasty to you.” He said:", "I am quickly perceiving that our goals within the ministry and the goals within the private sector are to a great degree the same. We are confident that enough serviced land can be brought into readiness for production this year, 1974, through 1976, to remove land supply as a price inflation factor.", "It would need a Kremlinologist to understand just what that means. The gist I get from it is that the minister intends that the housing action programme currently under way within the bowels of his ministry will stabilize lot and land prices at the present levels of between $12,000 and $20,000 a lot, depending upon which large city of the province one happens to be in; let’s say $15,000 to make it easy.", "Now that, Mr. Speaker, is simply not a price which is within reach of the average Ontario family. It means we are going to have houses on the market on this stabilized land produced by the ministry which will be costing about $40,000 -- let’s say at about the current level in most Ontario cities -- which will cost about $400 a month to own and obviously will be out of reach of the average Ontario family.", "There was a leak in the Toronto Star a while ago which purported to give some other indications of what is happening with the housing action programme. I regret having to use it, but we haven’t had anything else but leaks, hints, whispers and that kind of thing. In this particular case it was leaked or suggested that the province would lean on developers to ensure that serviced lots were brought onto the market at 15 per cent below the prices which prevailed in the fall of last year. That means, Mr. Speaker, at, let’s say between $12,000 and $15,000 -- an accomplishment if it is achieved, but a minimal accomplishment because it still means we don’t have housing people can afford.", "A freeze on the price of such lots? Well, the price of those lots has been sky-rocketing during the very months when the housing action programme has been going ahead.", "A system of preventing speculation and resale of such houses and lots? Well, which houses and lots?", "When the minister spoke he suggested one of the things which would be done would be to ensure that, as part of the whole programme, developers whose land was being accelerated into the market would be asked to undertake to the ministry that a percentage of units in the subdivision would be directly related to the needs of moderate income families. Moderate income is undefined, but the former minister was speaking the other month of the needs of families in the $12,000 to $18,000 a year category.", "The moderate income families have been getting the short end of the stick for God knows how many years, Mr. Speaker. Their needs are overwhelming, but what the minister is talking about is apparently 10 per cent, 15 per cent, 25 per cent or 30 per cent of the lots to be made available for the group which makes up 65 per cent of the population of the province. On those particular lots there may be some effort to prevent speculation on the resale over a limited period of time, such as we have with the Ontario Home Ownership Made Easy plan, but that doesn’t get to the root of the problem. In all of this effort there is a relaxation of environmental standards, and God knows what else the ministers can come up with. All this effort is nibbling away at the fringes, eating away at the corners, trying to give the illusion that something will happen. Yet the Provincial Secretary for Justice (Mr. Welch), just a month before the present incumbent became Minister of Housing, was specifically attacking the private sector for its refusal to co-operate and its refusal to get involved in the programmes that had been announced by the present Provincial Secretary for Resources Development (Mr. Grossman) the previous year that were designed to ensure greater integration and that were designed to give the private sector its opportunity to be involved in the provision of housing.", "The integrated community housing programme, Mr. Speaker, in the course of about eight months or nine months, attracted two proposals for Toronto, totalling 206 units; one for Ottawa with less than 100 units; and nothing at all for Thunder Bay, Hamilton or Burlington -- despite a continuing call for proposals.", "The rent supplement programme, which was also announced by the same minister a year or so ago, had attracted only 2,630 units from the private sector. In fact, this was only part of the way to the target of 3,300 and represented an increase of only approximately 700 units from the time that the OHC began to peddle the programme actively in the spring of 1973.", "In other words, that wasn’t working either; and yet these were the means by which the private sector was being asked to show that it could do the job. And as far as the former Housing minister was concerned -- I don’t see him in the House here -- but so far as the member for Lincoln (Mr. Welch) was concerned, the private sector wasn’t doing a job and he was sufficiently up tight about it that he was willing to talk about it publicly and castigate that sector -- but the new minister simply goes ahead.", "We have had a lot of talk in housing. We have had the member for Lincoln, and then we had the member for St. Andrew-St. Patrick (Mr. Grossman) -- and we shouldn’t forget Stanley Randall and Robert Macauley and the Premier himself. And yet despite all of these statements, the housing crisis keeps on getting worse and worse. What we are simply being asked to put up with is a series of trade-offs with developers in order to make their business a bit more profitable and maybe bring a few more units onto the market.", "Well I want to take issue with the minister specifically, Mr. Speaker, when he says, “There is no housing supply crisis,” because there very clearly and very definitely is a housing supply crisis and it exists in Ottawa and Toronto. It exists in Hamilton and St. Catharines. It exists in London and it exists in Windsor, Thunder Bay, Sudbury, Sault Ste. Marie -- almost every major municipality you care to mention, Mr. Speaker.", "The government prided itself on the fact that the housing starts in 1973 looked fairly good compared to 1972. The total starts in 1973 for Ontario were 110,536 units, a seven per cent increase over 1972. And that’s what the Minister of Housing has been referring to and saying: “Look, we are building enough housing. Something else is the problem; we are not sure what it is, but our housing action programme is going to solve it.”", "But if you look more closely, Mr. Speaker, those housing starts in urban areas which have got a population of over 10,000 rose by only one per cent in 1973, from 91,114 to 92,211. In other words, the increase in housing starts was all there in small towns and villages -- away from the census metropolitan areas; away from the Toronto commuting zone; away from the Hamilton or Ottawa commuting zones.", "In addition, the starts in areas of over 50,000 population actually fell from 84,740 to 82,730, a drop of 2.4 per cent. In other words, while the small towns between 10,000 and 50,000 -- Cornwall is an example and Brockville -- had some increase in housing starts, there was a drop in those communities of over 50,000.", "When you look at the communities of over 100,000, Mr. Speaker, there was a drop in housing starts of 3.9 per cent, from 80,475 to 77,361. And when you look at the figures city by city, you find that the pattern of decline goes on for the relatively smaller urban centres right up to Metro Toronto.", "In Toronto, housing starts were down 2% per cent last year. I beg your pardon, that’s in the Toronto census metropolitan area. That includes Pickering, it includes Markham, it includes much of the borough of York, it includes Mississauga and the rest of Peel County which is being developed. Housing starts in the Toronto area weren’t up seven per cent -- that was the provincial average -- they were down 2½ per cent in the area that we know is the area of greatest housing demand. In Metro Toronto, housing starts were down 10 per cent.", "In the city of Hamilton, housing starts were down 15 per cent, although they were up slightly in the Hamilton census metropolitan area. In Kitchener, down 5½ per cent; in the London census metropolitan area -- and take that, John Robarts -- housing starts were down by 28 per cent for the region and by 30 per cent for the city proper; in St. Catharines and Niagara, the whole Niagara Peninsula, housing starts were down by 6.7 per cent; and in the Windsor census metropolitan area they were down by 32 per cent.", "The only area of the province, Mr. Speaker, where there was any substantial increase in housing starts was, in fact, the Ottawa area, where starts were up by 10½ per cent. And if I could find the figures quickly enough -- which I can’t -- I was having another look at them, and as it happened housing starts were down in Hull last year. So the overall increase for the Ottawa-Hull housing area, which is one housing market, was negligible.", "That is the real position, Mr. Speaker, about the housing supply crisis. Not enough housing is being built in the major cities of the province, and that’s one of the reasons why we’ve had such extraordinary increases in housing costs.", "The hon. member for Scarborough West (Mr. Lewis) has already read into the record some of the figures for housing price increases across the province: 23 per cent in Ottawa, 25 per cent in Toronto, etc., over the past year.", "I want to give some other figures, though, to indicate that this isn’t just a Metro Toronto problem and that it isn’t something that has only cropped up in the past year. If I can take the figures for my own city of Ottawa, we find there that single-family residential prices, as calculated by the Ottawa Real Estate Board average $24,700 in the first half of 1972 and rose about 10 per cent to $27,000 in, the first six months of 1973.", "But in the first nine months of 1973 they were up to $37,000, Mr. Speaker, and for 1973 as a whole they were up to $38,000. The annual average for 1973 was 40 per cent higher than the average for the first six months. What that means, if you do the arithmetic, is that the average price of housing being sold in Ottawa today is something well over $40,000 -- probably $41,000 or $42,000 -- whereas 15 months ago it was around $26,000. That’s the degree of escalation or inflation that we’ve had in Ottawa.", "Just the other day the city of Ottawa put on the market a number of lots that it happened to own in a good residential area. The lots were nothing sensational. They were 60 by 100 ft lots. Mr. Speaker, the bids that were received by the city on those lots ranged between $19,200 and $35,000. That was what people were willing to pay for lots because of the shortage, and because of the grip that the developers have got on land costs in the Ottawa area.", "And yet, faced with that kind of escalation the minister and the government talk airily about a phased delegation of municipal land banking powers when they’re satisfied that the regional municipalities are prepared to take it. And they are going to delay and delay and delay because they don’t want that kind of interference with the private land market.", "In October, 1971, Mr. Speaker, a house at 489 Sunnyside changed hands for $9,200; a very modest house. In March of 1973, that same house was sold for $19,000.", "These are figures from Teela, which is the standard reference for property sales in all major portions of the province. The estimated value now, or rather at the end of 1973, is $23,000. That is probably low because of the increase in values that is now taking place.", "On the same street, 187 Sunnyside sold for $12,000 in September, 1968, and was resold for $45,000 in March, 1973 -- a 275 per cent increase.", "No. 360 Sunnyside sold for $16,000 in August, 1968; in March, 1973, that same house had gone up to $29,500. Its estimated value now is $35,000 -- a 120 per cent increase over the course of five years.", "No. 2476 Alta Vista Dr. -- I don’t know the house personally -- it sold for $14,750 in November, 1972, resold in the same month for $15,250, sold in March, 1973, for $34,500 and is now worth $41,000.", "No. 2090 Alta Vista Dr. sold for $35,000 in August. 1972; and 11 months later, in June, 1973, sold for $42,000 -- an increase in less than a year of 20 per cent.", "In my riding, 91 Rochester St. sold at $19,000 in February, 1968, at $29,500 in March, 1973, and probably is worth $35,000 today.", "No. 137 Balsam, a working-class house that ought to be kept for low-income families, was worth $18,000 in June, 1970, had gone up to $25,000 in June, 1973, and is still climbing.", "No. 488 Gilmour sold for $25,000 in September, 1972, and $35,000 seven months later in March, 1973, and is probably worth $42,000 today.", "No. 284 Flora St. -- again, an area in the working-class part of my riding, Mr. Speaker -- changed hands for $24,000 in May, 1971, for $33,000 in December, 1971 and for $42,000 in January, 1973. In less than two years, Mr. Speaker, that is an increase of $18,000, or of about 75 per cent. The estimated value of that house now is double what it was worth in May, 1971.", "No. 151 Goulbourn St., in the area of Sandy Hill, experienced a similar kind of escalation -- $24,000 in March, 1971, and worth $35,000 in December, 1973. And those current estimates are probably very conservative and very cautious, according to the people who did the figures for me in our research department.", "That’s Ottawa, Mr. Speaker, and Ottawa is known to have had a very inflationary housing market, thanks to the policies of this government.", "But take London, good Tory country. I’ve got a number of figures from there. They show the same kind of thing. Let me select some of them:", "No. 492 Wellington St. was worth $24,000 in 1966, $29,000 in 1968, $33,000 in 1971; it’s currently on the market for $68,000 and presumably will sell for double what it sold for in 1971.", "No. 559 Waterloo -- $25,000 in 1970 and $33,000 in 1971, an increase of a third in one year.", "No. 27 Yale St. -- $15,000 in 1968, $19,000 in 1972, $25,000 when it changed hands again in 1972, and $33,000 in 1973.", "No. 492 Talbot St. -- $11,000 in 1972, $30,000 in 1973.", "Here are houses that sold a couple of times during 1973 alone: No. 8 Christie St. in London sold in March, 1973, for $23,000 and resold for $31,000 four months later. No. 10 Elmwood sold in May, 1973, for $22,000 and in June for $29,000. No. 32 Emery St. -- $ 15,000 in June, 1973, and $18,000 later in the same month. No. 89 Hillsmount sold for $21,000 in June, 1973, and was resold in the same month for $48,000. That is what is happening under the Conservatives. It is clear that people who can afford to protect themselves against that kind of inflation are doing so with a vengeance. They are leaving up to the forces of a market which has absolutely no mercy, that enormous group of Ontario residents who cannot afford and can’t get into that kind of protection. Half of the population of our urban areas, Mr. Speaker, are tenants, and more and more of those tenants are tenants because they have no choice; they can’t break out.", "Ted Harvey’s study for the social planning council indicates that there is increasing competition for lower and lower standard accommodation among people on low incomes. I can vouch for that. I have watched it in my own riding of Ottawa Centre, and I am sure that it takes place in this area as well. Six to seven years ago when I first lived in Ottawa it was possible for a low-income family to rent a large home for maybe $80 or $100 a month, and that was big enough to raise a substantial kind of family. Nowadays those same families are jammed into two- or maybe three-bedroom apartments if they are lucky, and pay far more than what the shelter allowance from the welfare department, if they are on social assistance, happens to be. There has been an increase in the number of people who are forced to live in single rooms and have been forced out of small apartments and other kinds of accommodation, if they are single. The same thing is happening with families. And the pressure goes on and on.", "The social planning council here in Toronto says specifically that it believes that very shortly we will see an outbreak of homelessness, that is, we will have people on the streets because they have no place to go in the housing market which has been created by the Conservative government of this Premier.", "Is it only happening in Toronto and Ottawa and London? The answer, Mr. Speaker, is no. In Orillia, two years ago in a subdivision, there were lots selling for $3,000 apiece. They have now sold at $6,000, $7,000, $8,000 and $12,500, and are currently on the market for $15,000. Both in Barrie and in Orillia, where the wage level in industry tends to be as much below $3 an hour as above it, new houses are currently selling for around $40,000 apiece. In Guelph, the paper the other day indicated the prices for homes in Guelph were $25,000 to $30,000 -- that was one to two years ago -- and now they have gone up by $10,000 to $35,000 or $40,000.", "If you listen to your radio, Mr. Speaker, here in Metro you will find an increasing number of advertisements by developers saying, “come to the quiet tranquillity of Guelph, only 50 short miles from Metro.” In other words, Metro residents are being forced to Guelph in order to get housing at a price that they think they can afford. Before long they are going to be crowding out the member for Brant (Mr. R. F. Nixon) on his farm in order to find accommodation within commuting distance of Metro.", "Lots in Guelph right now are around $18,000, Mr. Speaker. There are 300 serviced HOME lots in Kingston township, I learned from the reeve and members of his council yesterday. That is equal to about half a year’s production of housing in the Kingston township area, and that has been the major site for new housing in that region. There are 300 lots with paved roads, sidewalks one side, underground wiring, water, sewer and all other services. They are ready to go, Mr. Speaker.", "The government is simply sitting on these lots. It called a tender, the tenders were unacceptable, and it is now saying it will call a new tender, but there has been no action by the government yet to call a new tender. In addition, the people in Kingston township who ought to know are aware that those lots were brought on to the market by the provincial government at a price of around $4,000 or $5,000. In the last year and a half in Kingston township, for a number of reasons, including those that we traded in the House yesterday, the price of a lot has gone up from about $7,000 or $8,000 to about $15,000.", "Apparently, from the best information that the local people can get, the province is going to charge $15,000 or $12,000 -- that range of price -- to people on these HOME lots if, as and when it gets them. In the meantime it is holding them back from the market and is itself contributing to the housing price problem in the Kingston area.", "Brantford: The Expositor says prices are up by 20 per cent during 1973. The council out there is going ahead with a very innovative and I believe successful programme of public land development, but with not a penny of assistance from this particular government.", "Fergus: The range of new house prices is $30,000 to $40,000. It was $20,000 or $25,000 two years ago.", "Kitchener: The price of a 50-ft lot has gone from $3,500 in 1965 to $11,000 today.", "Windsor: The average price of houses is up from $20,000 four years ago to $28,000, and in 1973 the increase was 27 per cent.", "What kind of lunacy is this taking place around the province, Mr. Speaker? What kind of lunacy? It is just plain insane, and it is insane not only in what is happening but it is insane in the fact that the government believes that the private sector is going to solve the problems.", "I want to point out to the House, Mr. Speaker, that one of the problems we have is the increasing concentration within the development industry. One day, it may have been that when you went out to Ajax or went out to North York and wanted to buy a house, there were any number of developers who were competing for your business. They were basically house builders. Many of them built a dozen, two dozen or five dozen homes a year. They owned a bit of land and they were hungry like wolves, but when you have that kind of situation in the free market sometimes it works not badly. In other words, if you had a classical free market situation and you had something like that, it started to work.", "But that situation has disappeared now, because the big ones have been eating up the little ones and the process has become inexorable to the point where even the giants are being eaten up by firms even larger than they.", "Take Markborough Properties, which I believe Mr. Magee in fact has an interest in. Its profits have risen from $984,000 in 1972 to $6 million in 1973, and its revenues from land operations had risen from $7 million the previous year to $29 million in the current year. It is one of the companies which has got a major stake or a major land bank in the Toronto area, and lo and behold, last fall some bigger fish descended upon Mark- borough in order to try to gobble it up.", "Campeau Corp. of Ottawa came along and sought to take over Markborough and then there was a corporate fight, a boardroom fight, and ultimately Hudson’s Bay Co. was successful in taking over Markborough. The takeover by Campeau was thwarted. Perhaps that means that temporarily a certain concentration between those particular industries was thwarted, but other people came in again instead.", "Currently, Mr. Speaker, there is a merger going on in Ontario among Cadillac, Canadian Equity and Fairview Corp. I want to read a couple of figures about these companies into the record.", "To take Cadillac first, their assets are worth $332 million, Canadian Equity’s assets are worth $72 million and Fairview Corp. assets are worth $125 million -- and that does not include the fact that it has a controlling stake in a number of very large developments, including the Toronto-Dominion Centre, the Galerie d’Anjou in Montreal and the big Eaton’s Fairview development here in downtown Toronto.", "Not only that, but these companies have an engaging habit of not valuing their assets at market. Canadian Equity, for example, which lists $73 million of assets in fact has got a heck of a lot more, because of the fact that they have the Erin Mills property and that is a very large investment whose value is going up literally week by week and month by month, because there is no control on land costs in the Toronto area.", "Cadillac’s operating revenue went from $35 million in 1971 to $60 million in 1972 and for the first nine months of 1973 it earned more than it had in all of 1972.", "Canadian Equity’s operating revenue was up by half from $8 million to $12.5 million in 1972.", "Fairview -- I don’t seem to have exactly how it has done. It earned $13.5 million in 1971 and its revenues have also been going up very rapidly.", "What is it in the housing and development market that companies of this size would need to get together? Where is the free competition of the private sector of which the Tory ministers are so fond of prating? It surely doesn’t exist when three companies of that size and with such tremendous land holdings and such tremendous influence in the land market -- let’s talk particularly about Metro Toronto -- need to join.", "Here we have Cadillac, a big apartment owner, a big landowner in the Toronto area; Canadian Equity, which owns Don Mills and Erin Mills; Fairview, with the Toronto-Dominion Centre and the Eaton’s centre -- an enormous chunk of downtown land -- all sorts of shopping centres all over the place and probably some residential properties, already linked very closely by controlling shareholdings but not by majority or complete shareholdings and now deciding to combine.", "I called somebody in the stock market and he told me I should ignore the fact that Eddie Goodman is a director of Cadillac and that there are all sorts of other links between the Conservative Party of this Premier and the development industry as represented in this particular merger. Then he said, “The institutional investors are nasty to the real estate industry.” There are economies of scale of some sort involved when firms of this size get together and when they concentrate.", "The smaller developers simply cannot carry the extended development times now required for approvals. It is very useful for a big development company to balance its risks by having office and commercial development, land development, apartment development, you name it, and this new corporate giant is going to have it.", "The stocks are undervalued in relation to their value and part of the reason for that is because the income stream from these big property companies is not as great as their ultimate gains from the capital gains they will make on their property holdings and on their landholdings. Finally, the true values of the companies aren’t reflected in their income statements where there are partially owned subsidiaries whose revenues don’t get grossed in the consolidated statement of the parent company.", "I hope everybody understands that; I find it a bit difficult to understand. Basically, what he was telling me -- this is an expert in the market and a guy who knows real estate -- is that the aim of that merger is not to make any more houses, it is to make a lot more money. The Bronfmans who control Cemp who control Fairview, the Ephraim Diamonds and other people who have a stake in Cadillac and all the other people -- including, I am sure, people on that side of the House -- who have a substantial stake in these companies simply want to see their shares valued at much higher values in the market. They want access to that kind of super-money and, by God, they are going to get it.", "The member for Riverdale (Mr. Renwick) made a very interesting comment the other day about this question of concentration whether it be in the property industry or in other industries. We have a curious situation in Ontario law, Mr. Speaker -- or in Canadian law -- by which, federally, combines legislation can only be carried out under the Criminal Code. It is not a civil matter at the federal level. Provincial jurisdiction covers property and civil rights and therefore the Province of Ontario very clearly has jurisdiction in a merger such as the merger of Cadillac, Fairview and Canadian Equity, and has the right and the power to step in when such a merger is contrary to the public interest. I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that this particular merger is very definitely contrary to the public interest.", "Any further consolidation, any further creation of monopolies and oligarchies in the housing and development industry is clearly against the interests of every tenant, of every citizen of the province who wants to have a place of his own or wants to be assured about having housing at reasonable cost. I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that one of the things that should be announced as part of a really vigorous housing policy, if this government means business, is that there will be legislation shortly in order to prevent further consolidations within the Province of Ontario and that the government will step in now in order to stop mergers such as the Cadillac-Fairview-Canadian Equity merger.", "That merger should be stopped because that merger will hurt people who want housing in the Province of Ontario. The government should take every measure necessary, whatever it does to the private sector, in order to ensure that housing becomes available at reasonable costs. And it is not doing it.", "I want to point out further, Mr. Speaker, that the current estimates that we have had from the province indicate that maybe 35,000 or 40,000 new lots or space for new housing units are to be created in Toronto, Ottawa and one or two northern centres over the next couple of years under the housing action programme. It’s very hard and very amorphous. Originally it was a 50 per cent increase in lots and then it became 25 per cent because it was spread over two years. But at any rate there is meant to be a substantial increase of lots. When you look at that though, Mr. Speaker, you find that that increase in lots is to be achieved by simply speeding up the flow of subdivisions that are currently locked in the approval process.", "Obviously, if it takes a year and a half to get approvals through and you can cut that time to six months, then you can find 30,000 or 40,000 lots that are sitting in the pipeline right now and you can bring them forward and you can have some effect on the current housing situation. The problem with that is, though, that that is a one-shot effort. It’s obviously going to take, say, six months to get approvals through, no matter what government we have and no matter what bill it has to bring land for housing on to the market. It’s going to take at least six months. So the government’s 35,000 or 40,000 lots are a one-shot effort.", "But when it does that, it takes away from the development industry, who are the people who carry these things through, their reserve of land that they had intended to bring on the market in 1976 and 1977. That means that we will go through the election of 1975 -- let’s say, that’s in October -- with possibly some marginal benefits from the extra lots that the government intends to bring in.", "However, there is no action currently being taken by the government in order to ensure that after that, in 1976 and 1977, a continued high rate of housing construction can proceed. Nothing like that is being done at all. In other words, there is no phase 2 to the housing programme that the government has talked about in general terms, and we aren’t convinced there is a phase 1 either. If phase 1 comes through, we don’t know what’s going to happen on phase 2. The government needs to start acting now because it does take time to get all of these things done. If the government doesn’t start to act, there will be no housing built, and the escalation in prices of 1975, 1976 and 1977 will make even the last year’s record look like child’s play.", "What we’re being guaranteed, Mr. Speaker, is $50,000 homes and $280-a-month family apartments for the next two years and nothing more. I would like to suggest that there is something deeper involved. I would like to suggest as well that the province is misunderstanding the situation if it says that there isn’t a supply problem as well as everything else.", "We’ve looked at the demographics and the demographics indicate that if the government were building about 95,000 houses a year it ought to keep up with the increase in demand over the next two or three years. Therefore, one can argue that if we are building 105,000 or 110,000 houses a year, we ought to be catching up a bit with the backlog and helping to ease off the situation. Clearly though, the demand for the new housing is in the major urban areas and that’s precisely where the starts are dropping. It is not in the rural areas. That’s where the number of new houses built is actually increasing.", "It seems to us that that increased flow of housing that we need has got to start now and it has to be continued. And if the private sector won’t or can’t do it, then the public sector has to do it.", "I also think that if the new minister is to display any credibility about housing he has got to take urgent action about land. We have talked already, Mr. Speaker, about the NDP programme for land. Very briefly, we believe that land should be in the public sector in and around development areas like Toronto; that the bulk of development land should be publicly-owned or publicly-controlled, because that is the only way that you can stop the kind of ripoffs that are taking place right now.", "But we admit that it takes a certain amount of time to bring that land into the public sector. In the meantime you have to ensure that the ripoffs of the private sector are stopped. Not just slowed down, not just tinkered with, but stopped and stopped dead. And if you can stop it so dead that the public has to come in and start buying the land, because that is the only way that you can get land going, that is just fine; because that means that you will get to the situation of public control of the land market that much sooner -- and that is the only fundamental answer to getting the housing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. F. Laughren (Nickel Belt)", "text": [ "Can we get to the Tory cabinet on this one?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Well, it is a pity that the Tory cabinet lost some of its expertise on these matters during the last shuffle." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "Yes, it has." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "However, I am sure that we will find that it has returned. As a matter of fact, I have heard of a certain northern member who is developing some first-hand expertise in these matters, Mr. Speaker. I understand that he has bought a new house in Metro Toronto and intends to sell it in a few months when there is a handsome profit to be made. He does not intend, I understand, to live in that particular house." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "He didn’t make it into the cabinet, though." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "He didn’t make it into the cabinet, though; that is right.", "We would like to suggest, Mr. Speaker, that right now not only do we need a tax of 75 per cent in speculative gains in development lands, but we need to go beyond that to talk about speculative gains about anybody who was clearly buying and selling houses for a profit rather than for their own particular use.", "If you want to play psychological games, you have got to play hardball, and this government isn’t even playing softball. They are just playing patsies.", "We would recommend that probably starting back in October of 1971 -- that is a good psychological moment to start with -- the increase in value of any development land that is sold be taxed at the rate of 75 per cent. Now that means that if the land has been in one hand over that period of time and is sold, the owner would pay a speculative gains tax of 75 per cent. If the owner happened to have so bought the land recently at a very inflated price, he would find that in fact he couldn’t afford to do it. Well, that is fine. People who play that sort of game deserve to get caught.", "We would say that on development land where that prevails, then the only way out of paying that 75 per cent tax for the owner would be for him to sell to the Ontario government at something around the price which he actually paid for the land -- whether it was two months or 10 months or two or three years ago. If the owner chooses not to do that, and to wait for some favourable change of government, as far as we are concerned there should be no allowance in that gains tax, Mr. Speaker, for any cost of holding that land after the date that the announcement of intention is made by the provincial government." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "How will the Tories make any kind of nest egg for their old age?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Well, that is right. That is a problem, as a matter of fact, for the member for Bellwoods. That would hurt him rather badly, because I think that he had some other different intentions." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. Yaremko (Bellwoods)", "text": [ "That is very unfair." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "No, it is not unfair." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Yaremko", "text": [ "That is not fair." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "The member was making a nest egg for his old age, correct?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Yaremko", "text": [ "What is the member for Ottawa Centre doing with his savings? Drinking it up?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "No, I am devoting some of my savings to my riding office in my riding in order to ensure that people have good representation. I’ll do my best to change this government, because that is the biggest contribution that anybody could make." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Yaremko", "text": [ "I have served in office for 23 years." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Yaremko", "text": [ "Just ask the man beside the member -- former leader of the NDP, who is smiling -- where he put his savings. Speculative stock! I have never owned a single share of speculative stock since." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)", "text": [ "Oh, nonsense -- speculative stock." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Nonsense, nonsense. The member for Bellwoods has been speculating in land for the last 20 years, Mr. Speaker. That is one of the reasons he is out of cabinet. It should have happened far sooner." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, order.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "I just want to say, Mr. Speaker, that where speculative housing is involved, and where the housing is not owner-occupied and has a value of more than $100,000, we would apply the same tax. If it is a fellow who lives in the bottom of a duplex and he happens to sell it, obviously that would be exempted. But anybody who is playing the kind of big money games that have been encouraged by the Conservatives ought to pay the same kind of taxes, and that means 75 per cent of the gain since 1971 or something along that line. If we want to make it the beginning of 1972 for convenience, that’s okay. But we need that kind of step, Mr. Speaker, if this government is going to show any credibility in the minister s determination to get the speculators out of the market.", "Very simply, Mr. Speaker, right now the upside bonus or benefits that a speculator can expect from land are very high. The downside risk is very low because after all, among other things, half of it is paid for by government because of the tax system.", "We would suggest that any losses on land speculation not be permitted deductions as far as the Ontario tax system is concerned, and that the provincial government recommend that the same step be made by the federal government. In view of the comments by the member for Waterloo North (Mr. Good), I suggest that perhaps the opposition party might suggest that to their friends in Ottawa as well.", "If the housing programme announced over the next month doesn’t include steps at least that tough, if it doesn’t include steps to acquire a very substantial portion of land for public control, public development and public leasing, if it doesn’t include an adequate programme of rent regulation or rent control in order to protect those millions of tenants across the province who are now subject to insecurity, to rent ripoffs and to the kind of situation that was documented in the report tabled in Ontario this week, then there will be no credibility in that housing programme whatsoever.", "My great concern is that the new minister is simply ideologically incapable of taking those kinds of measures, which are the kinds of measures that are needed for housing.", "I think, Mr. Speaker, I have reached a convenient break in my remarks. I would like to resume next week to make a few comments about the Arnprior dam." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Perhaps the hon. member would move the adjournment of the debate.", "Mr. Cassidy moves the adjournment of the debate.", "Motion agreed to." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on Monday we will proceed to item No. 2, Bill 1, and then we will return to this debate.", "Hon. Mr. Winkler moves the adjournment of the House.", "Motion agreed to.", "The House adjourned at 1 o’clock, p.m." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. W. G. Davis (Premier)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, yesterday I met with the Prime Minister of Canada and the premiers of the other nine provinces in Ottawa on the price of crude oil in Canada. As the hon. members know, a new price had to be decided upon by April 1 to replace the $4 a barrel price which had been in effect since September last.", "In order to avoid what I would consider a serious confrontation throughout this country at a very critical point in its history, some consensus simply had to be reached yesterday. This was impressed upon me very deeply as I participated yesterday afternoon. In the final analysis, I felt that the only reasonable course of action for a Premier of Ontario was to modify his initial position to accept a somewhat higher price than I would have preferred, bearing in mind the inflationary effects of any increase.", "I believe that the agreement finally arrived at recognizes to a considerable degree the very different interests of the different regions of the country and will be to the benefit of Canada as a whole. For that reason, perhaps rather than reasons of eventual price determination, I am not unhappy with the results. The consensus arrived at provides for a wellhead price of oil of $6.50 a barrel, effective on April 1 and lasting for at least 12 and possibly 15 months. Prior to the end of this initial period the price will be reviewed and may be then continued, raised or lowered.", "The price will be uniform across Canada, but subject to an equitable transportation cost differential. The federal government will continue to levy an export tax on the difference between this domestic price and that price which our oil commands on the Chicago market. The proceeds of this tax will almost entirely be used to bring down the price of oil for eastern consumers, 800,000 of whom are in eastern Ontario, who now depend on imported oil. Any federal revenues not needed for this cushion, as it has been described, will be applied by the federal government to equalization payments to the “have-not” provinces, which will be increased by a rough estimate by some 10 per cent. The proceeds of the price increase for domestic oil will be divided between the producing provinces and the oil companies as determined by the producing provinces.", "This agreed price is somewhat higher than the price advocated by the Ontario government, but is much lower than that originally sought by the producing provinces. After all, $6.50 is some $4 less than the current world price and some $2 less than the average American price. The effect of the agreement will probably result in an increase of approximately seven cents a gallon for gasoline and heating oil, and an increase of somewhat more than one percentage point on the consumer price index. The exact timing of retail price increases to Ontario consumers has not been determined, but we could fully expect the federal government and the industry will be able to maintain existing prices until present stocks are exhausted.", "In spite of this cost which will have to be paid by consumers in Ontario, I am convinced that we have preserved for Canadians the benefits of this country’s vast energy resources. The increased price will permit rapid development of new energy resources; the lower-than-world price will maintain a competitive advantage for Canadian industry; consumers in the eastern provinces will be protected from the high cost of imported oil, the western provinces will have a base on which to diversify their economic development, Canadians will have a stable oil price for at least a year while the rest of the world faces uncertainty, and Canada will be spared a potentially divisive constitutional confrontation.", "I would hope that our efforts since January to come to grips with a national oil policy will prove to have paved the way for the next steps, which must include arrangements for natural gas, and a more permanent federal-provincial mechanism that will make unnecessary the crisis bargaining of the last few days. In this regard, we will continue to work together with the federal government and our sister provinces.", "All in all, Mr. Speaker, I think yesterday was a reasonable solution for this province and for Canada." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. John White (Treasurer, Minister of Economics and Intergovernmental Affairs)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the budget will be brought down Tuesday, April 9." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. A. J. Roy (Ottawa East)", "text": [ "Good for the Treasurer!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. P. G. Givens (York-Forest Hill)", "text": [ "What time?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)", "text": [ "Why did the Treasurer have to change the date?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Oral questions.", "The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)", "text": [ "I’d like to ask the Premier for some further information on yesterday’s important conference.", "Is the figure of approximately $100 million, which will be Ontario’s share of the so-called cushion, going to be allocated entirely to that area of eastern Ontario directly concerned, or could it possibly be government policy to use that fund or some additional fund, perhaps something from the gas tax fund, to assist in equalizing the price in the northern part of the province, which is not included in the geographic division but certainly is an area suffering from seriously inflating gas prices?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the intent is to provide a cushion, as we have begun to use the term, for consumers in the eastern part of Canada, and that includes the 800,000 in eastern Ontario, who even today are paying something higher than the price in the rest of Ontario, including northern Ontario.", "The whole policy, Mr. Speaker, is to have a degree of equality, exclusive of transportation costs, for all of Canada. The funds that will be made available from the export tax by the federal government will be used to offset the differential that has existed for a period of time. It would be very horrendous, I think, if this were not the policy for the 800,000 people in eastern Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary: Since I am sure the Premier would agree that even with the unnatural dislocating pricing effects in the eastern part of Ontario, which are going to be compensated for by this cushion, would he not agree that the prices in the north are already higher than those paid in the east and that we should have some provincial programme to provide that sort of a cushion for the good of our citizens living in that part of the province?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Well, Mr. Speaker, I think it is a very commendable objective, to the extent that it is practical and equitable, to have equalization of prices within Ontario. This government has been endeavouring to come to grips with it. We have done it, as I recall, with beer --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "It is not a necessity -- not yet anyway." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. A. Grossman (Provincial Secretary for Resources Development)", "text": [ "You’re kidding!" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Well, some say it’s almost a necessity." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "It may almost be in the Premier’s house, but in mine it isn’t." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "The Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Rhodes) has been endeavouring to do this with respect to some commodities in the northeastern corridor.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "The question of being able to have, shall we say, the same price for other commodities in the north or in other sections of the Province of Ontario, of course, is of interest to the government. But I have to say to the Leader of the Opposition, as it relates to the moneys that will be coming from the export tax, they are to be allocated for the consumers who at present are in the eastern area, and I guess that line will tend to disappear because of the now uniform price. That is the intent of the cushion allowance." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Wentworth, I believe, should have a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Supplementary question: I would like to ask, is the answer then that the government is not going to do anything for northern Ontario? And, secondly, what kind of mechanism does the government intend to set up to make sure that no price gouging takes place in Ontario as a result of such things as heating cost increases, which will be passed on by landlords to tenants right across the province?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Well, Mr. Speaker, I am sure the member for Wentworth likes to use the term “gouging” whenever he possibly can --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Only when it is appropriate." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "It makes headlines." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I can only say to the hon. member that this government does a great deal for the north, will continue to do so and has a far greater interest than have --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. W. Martel (Sudbury East)", "text": [ "Try to convince the people of northern Ontario of that!" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "But I think it is fair to state, Mr. Speaker, that we have demonstrated this rather conclusively, and certainly the contents of the Throne Speech have been welcomed as a very real recognition of what we are prepared to do, even by some of our critics in the north.", "Interjections by hon, members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a supplementary pertaining to the Premier’s statement. I realize the meeting in Ottawa was in private. Can he tell the House whether, on behalf of Ontario, he indicated some concern that under the federal policy an additional $1.5 billion is going to accrue to the treasury of Alberta on the basis of the present circumstances, even though it is going to be shared with the producers on the basis of provincial decision? Is he of the impression that this sort of an allocation of funds is going to be dislocating now, and will be increasingly dislocating? Did he suggest .that we in Ontario were prepared to leave the jurisdiction of uranium resources at the federal level if, in fact, the advantages to the, let’s say, specially-inflated prices of oil were going to accrue to all of Canada rather than just one provincial jurisdiction?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Bullbrook (Sarnia)", "text": [ "A great question." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "With great respect, of course, Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition has once again not totally appreciated what has happened, or the mathematics of it. The last person to say that the Province of Alberta and the Province of Saskatchewan are not going to do well out of this would be myself. But to say that all of these funds are accruing to the two producing provinces for their resource is just categorically incorrect." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Of course not -- who said it? Did I? I did not!" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Yes, the Leader of the Opposition did." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I did not --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "And I would say, Mr. Speaker, that it has to be recognized --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F, Nixon", "text": [ "On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I expressed specifically when I saw the statement that obviously -- and you’ve got to do this -- the funds would be allocated by the Province of Alberta to its own direct consolidated revenue fund or to the producers, as it saw fit. And surely, Mr. Speaker, it is well understood that a half of the budget of that province is going to be met from these extraordinary sources." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Right. Did the Premier understand the question?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker -- and I know the Leader of the Opposition would like us to be fair -I would like to point out --", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "-- that while Alberta will receive substantially increased revenues, the total amount of the export tax, which comes from provincial revenues, the provincial resource, all of that tax and it’s in the hundreds of millions of dollars -- is going to cushion many thousands of Canadians in the Maritime provinces, the Province of Quebec, and 800,000 citizens of the Province of Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "That’s the export tax." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Well, the export tax is on a provincial resource; and I think it is fair to state that a couple of provincial premiers would like to see the export tax funds going to their provinces. That has not happened. The federal government says, “This is ours; we are going to use it.” And the fact remains that as of April 1, hundreds of millions of dollars flowing -- literally flowing -- from a provincial resource will be used to equalize oil prices right across the country.", "And I think, Mr. Speaker, this is something that the Province of Ontario advocated some many months ago, and which I think is one of the significant steps forward that this country has made in the past several years. To me it is a fairly basic and a fairly important principle, and I give the Prime Minister of Canada some credit.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "What about the uranium? What about the uranium situation?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Port Arthur." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "The Premier has a commitment in connection with uranium. It’s the same thing as far as uranium." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur)", "text": [ "A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, referring to the answer the Premier gave to a supplementary --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Is this a supplementary question?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "It is a supplementary to the main question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "All right, proceed to ask the question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "Has the Premier, in effect, said that he and his government are powerless to equalize prices of oil, gas and other commodities in northwestern Ontario -- that 58 per cent of the land mass in the province that lies west of Sault Ste. Marie, which was not mentioned in the Throne Speech and which he has not mentioned today?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have not said this government is powerless. This government is not powerless. And I have not said --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "Why hasn’t the Premier done anything?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)", "text": [ "Just gutless, that’s all." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. R. Rhodes (Minister of Transportation and Communications)", "text": [ "Look who is talking, the island resident." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "-- that we will not be making an attempt to see if we can’t rationalize certain things in the northwest as well as the northeast." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, by way of supplementary --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "There have been five. I will permit one last supplementary. The hon. member for Downsview." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that fuel oil is going to increase somewhere in the vicinity of 15 per cent and gasoline about 10 to 12 per cent, I wonder if the Premier could tell us if the government of Ontario has any plans at all to enable those people on fixed incomes and on low incomes- pensioners, welfare recipients and so on -- to be able to cope with yet another phenomenal increase to their cost of living? Is the government going to do anything about helping those people to carry on in face of what is going to be for them a shocking increase for absolute basics?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, this government is very cognizant of the inflationary- pressures on people on fixed incomes or low incomes, and if the hon. member for Downsview will be patient -- as I know he is used to being -- the Treasurer has indicated that his budget will be forthcoming and that of course is when the financial programmes of this government will be stated to the hon. members of this House." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Has the hon. Leader of the Opposition further questions?" ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I would like to ask the Minister of Health if he can dispel some of the uncertainty about the status of the denturists. Is it true that in fact he has decided to reverse the government position and is supported in that by his cabinet colleagues but somehow can’t get the support of the backbench members of his party? If that is true he can look to us for support." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. F. S. Miller (Minister of Health)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am sure that a reasonable member like the Leader of the Opposition would support almost anything that I brought forward. However --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "On the same day that he said he likes Trudeau, Trudeau said he liked him." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "I can assure the member that I tried to make my position relatively clear in the fact that I was giving this a great deal of consideration as a new minister, that there were a number of options open to me, if in fact any changes were required at all, that either I should make a change in the near future or I should not, depending upon the conclusion which I may reach.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Did he swear that oath to answer like this before he went into the Cabinet?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "I have not yet reached that conclusion, but I hope to very shortly.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)", "text": [ "Change if necessary, but not necessarily." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I would like to ask the Minister of Community and Social Services if it is true that the ministry will be implementing a so-called cost-sharing plan for residents of psychiatric institutions, under which the parents of the children in institutions such as Cedar Springs will be required to pay a part of the cost that has so far been met completely from public funds?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle Minister of Community and Social Services)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would be pleased to send to the hon. Leader of the Opposition another copy of my remarks on second reading of that bill, where I indicated that no decision has been reached and that there are ongoing discussions with the parents and with the local associations." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary: May I assure the minister that I followed the debate very carefully on that bill because it had very far-reaching significance. Can the hon. minister assure the House that it is not going to be a part of government policy that the parents of retarded children are going to have to pay directly the costs, or even a part of the costs, of the care and education of these young people?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle", "text": [ "Again, Mr. Speaker, I would like to reiterate what I said, that no decision has been reached, that everything is being done in full --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. T. P. Reid (Rainy River)", "text": [ "He hasn’t even considered it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle", "text": [ "Sit down and listen.", "Everything is being done in full consultation with the parents of the retarded and with the local associations and there will be no decision reached in this area for several months." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary: Can the minister undertake to tell the House what possible rationale would lead him to say that he is even contemplating such a programme?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would be very pleased to make available to the hon. Leader of the Opposition a resolution that was passed by the Ontario Association for the Mentally Retarded and sent to the local associations, whereby they are in agreement with --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "They are not in agreement." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle", "text": [ "They are in agreement that we do consider assistance under the Canada Assistance Plan, with the provision that the money that would be received would be used for enriching and expanding our facilities and our services to the mentally handicapped." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Wentworth on behalf of the New Democratic Party." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Premier. In view of the statement of the commission on book publishing that additional Ontario-based publishing enterprises owned or controlled by nonresidents should no longer be permitted in Ontario without prior approval, and in view of the government’s seeming reluctance to move in this field, will the Premier order that there be an inquiry into the proposition that Houghton, Mifflin, a US based company, has applied for incorporation in Ontario to establish a publishing firm, and that Allyn and Bacon is in the process of doing similarly? This is not in keeping with either the intent of the recommendation or the stated intent of the government at the time the recommendations were released." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am relatively familiar with the contents of that particular report. I can only say to the hon. member that we will be taking a look at both of those applications. I think we have made it abundantly clear that, certainly to the extent it is practical, this government is very committed to the concept of the publishing industry being Canadian, and I think we have demonstrated this rather conclusively." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "A supplementary question: What process is there whereby anyone attempting to set up a publishing firm in Ontario must make application to the government in any event? What process is there that guarantees the government would even be made aware that it was going to be set up until after it’s set up?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I can only assume, not being involved with the legal field any more, that if they are going to do it by way of a new corporation, they will have to get approval. If they were, in fact, purchasing an existing publishing house, of course, there would be certain approvals required, if not ours, certainly of the federal government. I think we are going to be familiar with it and are in a position to deal with it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "A supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Has the hon. member for Port Arthur a supplementary?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "Is the minister aware that Houghton, Mifflin has, in fact, applied’ for incorporation in Ontario? What response has the government formulated in reply to the letter sent to the Premier on March 25 by the Independent Publishers Association?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I haven’t checked the records of application but I am aware it has made application." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "What response is he going to make?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I will tell the member when we decide." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "When another firm --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Wentworth." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "With regard to Tuesday’s policy statement on uranium I would like to ask the Premier whether, instead of relaxing the degree of foreign ownership that currently is involved in the uranium field in Canada, the Province of Ontario might consider taking up the 10 per cent which is currently permitted to be sold to foreign investors, for the purposes of exercising some degree of control over the use of uranium and the future of uranium as a valuable energy source in the Province of Ontario?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "With great respect, Mr. Speaker, I thought this would be abundantly clear to the member for Wentworth; the control as to its use is now very much there. That is not the problem." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "A supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Rainy River with a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "The Premier’s remarks seemed to indicate that it was a problem of exploration and development; would he consider a consortium, perhaps such as along the lines of Panarctic, with the involvement of the Ontario government and the involvement of Canadian mining firms to carry out the exploration and development of uranium in Ontario?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "Heaven forbid." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. F. Laughren (Nickel Belt)", "text": [ "Save us from that one." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, that’s one of the things already under consideration." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Wentworth." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "A supplementary question: Does the Premier feel --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "Why doesn’t he at least do away with --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order! The hon. member for Wentworth." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Does the Premier feel, with regard to the discussions he left in Ottawa yesterday, that it’s time we got out from under the private developer in the field of energy and in the field of fuel oil, and that we in the Province of Ontario attempt for the first time to exercise some degree of control so the taxpayers’ money isn’t funnelled through the government into the pockets of major corporations owned almost wholly in the US?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the basic discussion yesterday did not refer to that whatsoever." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "No, it didn’t refer to it but that’s what happens." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "It referred to the price that was to be paid to the producing provinces." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "And it is going back to the producing pockets of the country." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Those producing provinces make their own determination. I gather the member for Wentworth is saying that because of their great philosophical association the Province of Saskatchewan will use all the funds in the provincial process. I would doubt it. He may even find some of them going to the private sector. It may come as a great shock to him but they just may." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Sarnia with a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "By way of supplementary, would the Premier clarify for me, in connection with his statement made two days ago, the following words: “We are not, however, convinced that equity requirements with respect to the ownership of uranium mines and the granting of exploration permits should be significantly different from those that apply to oil, gas and coal.” Does the Minister of Energy concur and does that sentence mean what it says?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I think it depends to a certain extent on how one reads it.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "He couldn’t claim to be misquoted because it’s all here." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Was the Premier smiling when he said that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I think the Minister of Energy, in discussions with the press both the same day and subsequently, has clarified it --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Has clarified what the Premier really meant to say." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "-- so that the members will understand specifically." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon Mr. Davis", "text": [ "So that there will be no confusion, if the hon member for Sarnia would like to ask the Minister of Energy specifically as to his statement, which I think is in the neighbourhood of 51 per cent Canadian ownership, he would be delighted to answer." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "The Premier should not make these statements. He should let the Minister of Energy make them for him." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Yes, he would be delighted to do so.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "By way of supplementary, would the Minister of Energy assist the Premier --" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "No!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "-- in understanding what that sentence means, and conveying to the House what it means?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Yes, what it really means." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Out of order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. D. McKeough (Minister of Energy)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, if there’s anyone in this House who doesn’t need assistance, it’s the Premier of this province.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "I withdraw the question. Let the Premier answer it. He says the Premier doesn’t need any help." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order!" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Well, the question has been withdrawn. The hon. member for Wentworth." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. F. A. Burr (Sandwich-Riverside)", "text": [ "Supplementary?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "All right, a supplementary. The hon. member for Sandwich-Riverside." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Supplementary? The question was withdrawn. Supplementary to a withdrawn question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Better get a new statement writer like the Minister of Energy." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "No, I wrote it. That’s the problem." ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. M. Campbell (St. George)", "text": [ "He admits it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Burr", "text": [ "Does the Premier feel at ease with the fact that in promoting further exploration and mining of uranium, he is condemning to premature and painful death many of those unfortunate men who will have to do the mining of that uranium?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, of course we’re concerned about the position of miners in any capacity --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "When did that start?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "-- but I think it is fair to state that we are interested-and I make it abundantly clear, and that was the real purpose of the statement on Tuesday -- in having further exploration and development of the uranium resource of this province. We happen to regard it as being one of the major potential energy sources in not only Ontario, but Canada and, the rest of the world. Quite frankly, we think that the rules should be altered so there can be greater encouragement so that we can have this resource utilized for the broad general public." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Burr", "text": [ "As a supplementary --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Wentworth. There have been a reasonable number of supplementaries now. The hon. member for Wentworth." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "They’re received no answer." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "There have been a reasonable number of supplementaries." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Good questions, no answers.", "Mr. Speaker, I have one question of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations. Is the superintendent of insurance still in his department?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. T. Clement (Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations)", "text": [ "Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Will the minister --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "That’s a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "-- request that the superintendent of insurance investigate the policies currently in operation with regard to dental care with a number of major companies, such as Dofasco and Steel Co. of Canada, to determine the basis upon which the fee schedule was arrived at, and to find out why dentists are charging more to patients who are insured than they charge for similar services to patients who are uninsured?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Yes, I will make that inquiry to the superintendent." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Does the hon. member for Wentworth have further questions? The hon. Minister of Health has the answer to a question asked previously.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "Let’s hope he has." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on March 8 the hon. member for High Park asked me a question concerning the availability of well-female examinations and our policy on it. There was an OHIP bulletin that went out." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Shulman (High Park)", "text": [ "I have it here." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "It’s number 4008, Aug. 11, 1972. It said, as the member knows, that well-female examinations, as such, are not a benefit and should be treated and accepted as office visits. If Pap smears, etc., are necessary, charges should be as specified in the OMA fee schedule.", "This simply means that if, in the physician’s judgement, a Pap smear should be done, it will be paid for by OHIP. The previously designated well-female examination, the OMA felt, was an anomaly, as it is exactly the same as any other check of a patient presently without symptoms. There has been no change in OHIP policy relating to payment for Pap smears or for frequency of this test. In fact, our staff have indicated that there are probably more being claimed now than ever before." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Does the minister recall the pronouncement made by his second predecessor back, when he brought in this so-called well-female examination every six months which he said would be a great step forward? Does he also recall the statement made by OHIP at the time that they cancelled this, that in future it would be paid for only once a year instead of every six months, unless there was a medical reason for it? Is he not aware that this is an abandonment of the preventive medicine aspect of that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I simply reiterate my statement that we are doing these as frequently as we ever did. We have not changed the time limits on them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "I have one other supplementary, if I may, Mr. Speaker. Will the minister elaborate on who the physicians are to whom he referred in the House the other day, who do not believe in the value of the Pap smear?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "I think the member simply needs to do a bit of the research that he’s so good at by looking through the papers." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Pap is back." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Does the minister know of any better way?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Attorney General has the answer to a question asked previously." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. R. Welch (Provincial Secretary for Justice and Attorney General)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on Tuesday last the hon. member for Scarborough West (Mr. Lewis) directed a question to me concerning a caution that had been registered under section 48 of the Land Titles Act with the master of titles at North Bay in respect to all unpatented land in the 110 townships in the district of Nipissing. This matter was brought to the attention of the Ministry of the Attorney General, and we have commenced studies in order to have a very careful evaluation of the historical facts and indeed the legal content of the claim upon which the cautions are based.", "As the hon. members will appreciate, this will involve a fairly thorough review of the files of the Ministry of Natural Resources and the federal Department of Indian and Northern Affairs concerning the Bear Island Foundation. We will be conducting a study of all the relevant constitutional law relating to native rights and treaties in Canada. This would be ail the information which I could provide to the hon. member at this time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. A. J. Renwick (Riverdale)", "text": [ "By way of a supplementary, would the minister be good enough to table a copy of the caution in the House so that we could have a look at it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch", "text": [ "Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "By way of a supplementary, Mr. Speaker, is the Attorney General going to hire special counsel or is this investigation going to be done within his department?" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "At overtime costs?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch", "text": [ "The investigation to which I refer will be conducted within the ministry." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Minister of Housing also has the answer to a question asked previously, and then the hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. S. B. Handleman (Minister of Housing)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Wentworth asked a supplementary question concerning the status of the OHC holdings in the Saltfleet area and whether or not they could be expedited to be serviced and put on the market within the next two years.", "As the hon. member is aware, there has been considerable servicing done in the area in preparation for the start of construction in the first phase of the Saltfleet land assembly and there is currently a tender call out for additional underground services and roads. However, it would be physically and economically impossible to compress the development of the OHC’s 1,600-plus acres, let alone the entire development area, into the two-year period suggested by the hon. member.", "Staging of the community has been established in accordance with the official plan for the regional municipality. There are many other bodies, such as the city of Hamilton, the town of Stoney Creek, other local organizations and provincial ministries, which have committed considerable resources to future development on a phased basis.", "OHC itself is doing everything possible to accelerate the Saltfleet community consistent with the constraints imposed by other agencies on the rate of growth. Without going into detail on the other agencies’ restrictions, there are a number of them. Some of them are rudimentary and some of them are fundamental. I would add that, in addition to the Saltfleet land, OHC also expects to market something in the order of 800 lots in the city of Hamilton this year." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "A supplementary question: Isn’t the minister saying two things: One that the plan conforms with the official plan of the region, because there is no official plan of the region yet; and, secondly, that he cannot find either the money or the will to service that land in order to meet the needs of the people of the area to provide low-cost housing?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "First of all, I suppose I should have said the draft official plan, as our officials know of it in its present stage. Secondly, no, there is no unwillingness on the part of the ministry or the government. It’s simply a question of physical capacity. The number of acres which are normally developed in the Hamilton-Wentworth area in a year are slightly over 1,000 acres. This would, in fact, add about 150 per cent to that, and it’s physically impossible.", "If I might just mention to the hon. member, one of the problems that we ran into was the requirement by the town of Stoney Creek concerning underground transformer vaults. That has been ironed out. But it’s just the type of thing that is time-consuming and one of the kinds of things that I am committed to eradicate in the planning and development process." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "One final supplementary question: What does the minister intend to do by way of compressing the 10- or 12-year time period that has been allocated down to a reasonable number of years in order to ensure that there is going to be housing there, for young people who are coming into the housing market and for those already in the market, at a price they can afford to pay?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I suppose the first thing I can do is pledge my ministry to compress the time period the hon. member mentioned, without having a specific goal in mind. Certainly we want to reduce the time for development and construction. There is nothing that I would like better than to be able to reduce that to the two years the hon. member has suggested. I am told, and I am inclined to accept, that it is physically impossible. However, we will do everything possible to expedite it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: In view of the minister’s comments that it is physically impossible to accelerate development of those lots, as was suggested by the hon. member for Wentworth, can he assure the House that it will be physically possible to increase the supply of lots by approximately half in Toronto, Hamilton, Ottawa and some other centres such as in Thunder Bay, as is proposed in the housing action programme for the next two years?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, first of all, I didn’t say it was physically impossible to accelerate; I said it was impossible to compress it within the two-year time period the hon. member had suggested." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "I will give the minister an extra six months." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "As for announcing our production targets under the housing action programme, discussions are still going on with municipalities and developers. I hope to be in a position to make a specific announcement within a very short period of time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I think there has been a reasonable number of supplementaries on that question.", "The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A question of the Treasurer, who has been busily walking in and out and conferring with his friends.", "Was he the cabinet minister responsible for ordering the Ontario Municipal Board to reopen hearings and further consideration into the provision of water and sewage disposal facilities in Kingston township after the approvals and the hearings had been completed? And was he motivated in doing so by special advice given to him by his colleague, the member for Ottawa South (Mr. Bennett)?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "Well, sir, I commend the Leader of the Opposition for asking a question of me while I am here and not while I am out of the city." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "The Treasurer is very seldom here." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "It is the first time this year he has done that.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "It shows a certain enhancement of ethical standards or courage -- I am not sure which.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "If I did sign such instructions to the OMB, I have forgotten about it. I will double-check and see whether or not I did so." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary: Is the Treasurer aware that the council of Kingston township feels, and with some justification, that the cabinet has unduly and forcefully interfered with any impartiality of the Municipal Board in this regard to the detriment of the taxpayers in Kingston township and for the unwarranted extension of the time required to provide the facilities that the hon. gentlemen have been working on so assiduously?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "No." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "He is playing politics." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Supplementary? All right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "What steps is the province prepared to take to compensate Kingston township for the estimated extra cost of $500,000 to $1 million of building the waterworks in view of the fact that at present tenders expire on March 30 or 31 before the final OMB hearing is ordered by the cabinet?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "I have had an instant memo relating to the question from the Leader of the Opposition, saying I gave no such instructions. The OMB is the responsibility of the Attorney General." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "In view of the fact that the question was misdirected or was improper or incorrect there can be no supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "It was very proper." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Cochrane South." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. W. Ferrier (Cochrane South)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Health.", "What progress, if any, has he made in restoring some of the 52 summer student jobs that were cancelled this year at the Northeastern Regional Mental Health Centre as a result of budget constraints?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have discussed this matter with the member previously. I requested that the budget be reviewed for that hospital and for other hospitals that had similar budget cuts. I am informed that that review is in progress right now and there is a good possibility of the reinstatement of some budgetary moneys to provide summer employment opportunities." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Downsview." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations.", "In view of yet another collapse of a travel agency -- Four Seasons Travel Agency I think it is -- is the minister prepared to take any steps to provide licensing, trust funds and control of advance deposits, or to exercise the type of controls that his department presently uses for plumbers, real estate agents, used car dealers, mortgage brokers or people entering into pyramid schemes?", "Also, shouldn’t the people of Ontario be entitled to look to this minister for some kind of protection in view of the great series of scandals that has befallen good ordinary citizens who pay their money in advance to take trips, then the money disappears and they don’t even get their trips?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "And the minister just throws up his hands." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the association of travel agents, a group representing a substantial number of agents in this province, have advised me that they will be submitting a brief within the next three to four weeks in connection with this, pursuant to my invitation last January -- that is January of 1973 -- to look into this particular matter.", "May I point out that licensing of travel agents does not resolve the problem. If travel agents make arrangements through chartered Canadian carriers their deposits are insured under the federal legislation dealing with charter trips. It’s when they initiate charter trips with non-ordinary carriers operating in and out of Ontario, or operating in and out of the State of New York, that the difficulty arises. The licensing does not ensure that the person who makes the deposit will automatically have his money refunded." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "But bonding does." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Bonding does if the travel agent --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Control of trust funds does." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "-- defaults because of his own theft or the theft of a member of his staff. But bonding does not cover inept operators." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "That frequently has been the problem." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, by way of supplementary, if the systems of licensing and controls and testing seem to work for real estate agents, for mortgage brokers and for several other groups of people the ministry supervises, why can’t it put something on the statute books of the province to protect these Ontario citizens who are suffering because there is no government control whatsoever?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "The only way, Mr. Speaker, that something like that can arise would be for a substantial compensation fund to be developed by perhaps the travel agents themselves, and this is the very matter to which we have turned our minds. I am not going to see the Province of Ontario allocate several millions of dollars for a compensation fund for this particular segment of industry." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "I didn’t suggest a compensation fund." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Where does the government come into protecting these people?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Why in the world can the minister not put in legislation requiring a combination of bonding and insurance from every travel agent? What’s so difficult about that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "One of the difficulties is in resolving the problem and defining exactly how it would operate. This is the very question I directed to the industry 14 or 15 months ago." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "What about qualification tests?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "No problem at all." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "What is so difficult about that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "They do it in every other market." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "That’s right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Even do it for lawyers." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Did I hear the word “supplementary”?", "All right, the hon. member for Windsor-Walkerville." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman (Windsor- Walkerville)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "Point of order, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Point of order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "The previous question was asked by the hon. member for Downsview." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Well I’ll call two members of the New Democratic Party next. The hon. member for Windsor-Walkerville." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Besides there are very few members --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. D. Kennedy (Peel South)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, point of order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "A point of order over here." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Proportionately we have --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, point of order please." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Kennedy", "text": [ "The point of order is, I had asked a supplementary but you couldn’t hear it because of the several members over there speaking." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Got to speak up." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Was that a supplementary to the original question asked by the hon. member for Downsview?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Kennedy", "text": [ "Yes it was." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "All right, I’ll permit a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "Just walk down five chairs and talk to him." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Kennedy", "text": [ "Could I ask the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations, with respect to Cardinal Travel Ltd. and the activities of the fraud squad in investigating that, is the investigation complete or is the minister awaiting further detail, or is that phase of it closed?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Tell him to mind his own business." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "I don’t think the investigation has been completed in its entirety, Mr. Speaker. I was advised by my staff on Monday or Tuesday of this week that I could anticipate further information with reference to this particular agency to which the member refers. When I have that information I’ll make it available to any member of the House who wants it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Windsor-Walkerville." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question of the Minister of Health. Is the minister aware that a committee of concerned citizens in Windsor raised well over $16,000 more than a year ago to purchase a coronary bypass unit, and that unit subsequently had to be returned to the manufacturer because the ministry refused permission for the development of a cardiovascular surgery unit in one of the hospitals?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "And quite rightly so." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "Has the minister now reconsidered the decision of the previous Minister of Health and is he prepared to have the cardiovascular surgery unit established in one of the Windsor hospitals --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Sheer waste." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "-- in view of the fact that Windsor residents must now travel to the city of London for such treatment?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Givens", "text": [ "Now we know the NDP position." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I will be in Windsor tomorrow --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "That should help." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "-- and I am fully aware of the problem that has just been mentioned by the member. There is no justification --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Does the minister mean to say he is presenting his bill tomorrow?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "-- for the cardiovascular unit being placed in the hospital of Windsor. In fact, in the opinion of a medical team that was set up to determine where in fact such resources should be available, it could be potentially dangerous." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "I thought he was presenting a bill here." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Port Arthur." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "Supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Supplementary, yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, am I correct in stating that there are three heart transplant units in the city of Toronto within two miles of one another?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Oh, that is waste too." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "And is there not need for such a unit in the city of Windsor, rather than have Windsor residents travel to the city of London?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "No. They should shut down two of the ones in Toronto; that is what they should do." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I wouldn’t want to try to justify three heart transplant units within two miles of each other in the city of Toronto." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Shut them down." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "I can only say that that is one of the major duties I have as the Minister of Health of this province, to make sure that there is not duplication of facilities, or that in fact costly facilities are not put where they should not be. I will try to do that to the best of my ability with the advice I get from within the ministry." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. J. Bounsall (Windsor West)", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "One more supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Speaker, of the Minister of Health: Would he consider then as part of his health programme paying at least the travel costs, if not the accommodation costs, of one member of the family being able to visit a patient who is undergoing the use of these units in his centralized locations?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "What does the member for High Park think?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Good idea." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "He says that is a good idea." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "I am quite willing to listen to that suggestion." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Port Arthur." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Staying out of bed." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question of the Minister of Natural Resources. Has his ministry had any negotiations or conversations with Domtar Ltd. about possible reopening of cutting rights for them in Quetico Park in 10 years’ time?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. L. Bernier (Minister of Natural Resources)", "text": [ "I didn’t hear the first part." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Forget it. Go on to the next question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "Has the ministry had any conversations or negotiations with Domtar Ltd. about possible reopening of cutting rights for Domtar in Quetico Park in 10 years’ time?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "No, Mr. Speaker, we have not." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "Supplementary then, Mr. Speaker: Is the minister aware of a statement by Mr. A. S. Fleming, the vice-president of woodlands for Domtar Ltd., that he made publicly in Thunder Bay, that he is optimistic that such rights will be granted to them in a 10-year period? I think his exact words, for the minister’s information, are: “We may have lost the battle but we shall win the war in Quetico.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Just yes or no." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, there is no intention to allow cutting in Quetico Park." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Good!" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "Now or in the future." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Ottawa Centre." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "A question of the Premier, Mr. Speaker: What steps is the cabinet prepared to take in view of the fact that two appeals from OMB rulings granted by the cabinet have delayed the acceptance of waterworks tenders in Kingston township past the end of March and will therefore raise the cost of the project by more than a half million dollars?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. Haggerty (Welland South)", "text": [ "The member asked that question before." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "There’s a switch." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a feeling that question was asked earlier in some other form by somebody." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Huston (Essex-Kent)", "text": [ "He asked that; the same member." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I can only say this, Mr. Speaker, that we are obviously concerned with respect to the problems in Kingston township. I met with some of the councillors there some time ago when I was in Kingston. The member from that constituency has expressed his concern as well.", "The problem facing the cabinet, of course, in its determination on appeals, is to deal as equitably with these matters as we can. The cabinet made a certain decision; as to what the effect will be and whether there are any solutions for Kingston township I can’t tell the hon. member on this occasion.", "While I am on my feet, Mr. Speaker, I would like, on behalf of the member from the riding, to welcome to the Legislature the reeve and members of Kingston township council who I understand are in the gallery here this afternoon." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "I am glad to hear that, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Supplementary.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Leader of the Opposition on a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker, of the Premier: Since he is concerned about this, and very properly, would he not undertake to see that the approvals that had been granted are maintained and kept in force so that the time limits are not going to elapse and the cost will escalate further? Is he not prepared to assume that Kingston township has the proper right to go forward without any further delay?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Well Mr. Speaker, of course obviously when people wish to make an appeal these things have to be considered. The problem of keeping the question of the approvals open, and I am not totally familiar with the situation, is not the sole issue. The question is tenders have been submitted, and whether one can extend the figures in those tenders is I think another part of the problem. I can only say that we are concerned and we will make an effort to see if we can be helpful." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Is the Premier himself concerned?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "I have a supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Can the Premier explain why the only citizens’ group in the province to ever win two appeals from cabinet on the same issue is a citizens’ group headed by Prof. James Bennett, brother of the Ministry of Industry and Tourism (Mr. Bennett)?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. G. Nixon (Dovercourt)", "text": [ "Oh, get off that stuff." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Shame." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "That’s true, that’s true." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I can’t give the hon. member any record of the number of appeals and who is successful and who is not.", "I hate to confess this to the hon. member, because I know it will come as a great shock to him and I happen to be in the cabinet: I had no idea, first, that Prof. Bennett was head of the organization; and second I had no idea that a Prof. Bennett was a brother of the very distinguished member of the executive council, the Minister of Industry and Tourism.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Well all right, so I know now but I didn’t know before. I think it is quite improper to phrase a question in that way, quite frankly." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "The Premier knows he has been had now because of the favouritism the Tory party plays." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "What has the member got against professors?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Does the member think professors are all like that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The time for oral questions has now expired.", "Petitions.", "Presenting reports.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "When the member for Frontenac-Addington (Mr. Nuttall) walked into the restaurant, he wouldn’t say hello to him until the Premier --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have the honour this afternoon to present to the House two reports of the Ontario Law Reform Commission. The first is the third and final part of their study on the administration of Ontario courts, which was released by my predecessor in January and copies of which were provided to the members of the House. The second is a report on the Solicitors Act.", "The third part of the report on the administration of the courts deals with a wide variety of practice-oriented matters relating to the operation of the Master’s office, the rules committee, court interpreters, court reporters, special examiners, pretrial conferences, the role of the legal profession, law reporting and the small claims court.", "Like the two preceding volumes which were the subject of a very lengthy statement of government policy to which as Attorney General I am committed, part three will receive careful and considered attention by members of my ministry --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Is the government committed to the first two volumes in their entirety?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch", "text": [ "-- and will be included within the consultative process already underway with members of the judiciary, the profession and the public at large.", "As indicated in the Speech from the Throne, we will proceed with the development of a programme of implementation which will result in the establishment of a system of court administration that will accommodate the need for an independent judiciary with an effective administrative structure responsible to the people, to the service of whom it is dedicated." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Is it going to be an independent administration?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the report on the Solicitors Act is of a more precise and limited compass.", "Up until 1970, the Solicitors Act contained many rules of general application to a number of different aspects of the legal profession with respect to its internal arrangements and its service to the public. In that year, much of the Act’s content was transferred to the Law Society Act, 1970, leaving a rather fragmented version of the Solicitors Act which dealt only with solicitor costs, collection of fees, and methods of review and control of these, and remuneration practices for professional legal services. The Act was recognized as awkward after being divided and the Law Reform Commission undertook the task of revising and up-dating it.", "In this report, Mr. Speaker, the commission presents proposals for clarifying the way in which a member of the public or a lawyer can have an account or agreement for legal services reviewed by an appropriate judicial officer in a way that promises to be simpler, faster and fairer than the system which we adopted in Ontario from the English practice many years ago." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Good idea, good idea." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch", "text": [ "The commission has proposed preservation of the desirable features of the present practice, the modernization of the legislation in line with current legal thought --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "How about the elimination of the undesirable pieces?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch", "text": [ "-- and development in case law and the addition of some innovative arrangements which will help to ensure the law maintains an even hand in the financial arrangements between a solicitor and his client.", "The report is receiving careful study by officials of my ministry and will, I trust, receive the same from the legal profession and the members of the public. Although this sort of subject matter is sometimes characterized as “lawyers’ law,” it is no less true to say that it is “people’s law” as well. I look forward to a thoughtful public and professional response to this report so that in this area, as in all other areas of law reform, we can ensure that appropriate and timely changes can be made." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on a question of clarification, there was one phrase in the minister’s statement I didn’t quite follow. He talked about an independent system for administering the courts. Did he mean that the system was going to be independent of his ministry, or independent of the courts; or independent to what extent?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I will simply repeat that sentence. I was referring to the need for an independent judiciary with an effective administrative structure that will be responsible to the people." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Does that mean responsible to the minister?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The question period has expired. We are on reports.", "Hon. Mr. Guindon presented the annual report for the Ministry of Labour for the year ended March 31, 1973." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Motions.", "Introduction of bills." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. W. A. Stewart (Minister of Agriculture and Food)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the bill provides for the licensing under the Act for various persons engaged in dealing in farm produce. It provides for a licence review board under the Statutory Powers Procedures Act and it also provides for a produce arbitration board to arbitrate disputes arising out of contracts entered into in respect to the marketing of farm products." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, it has been seldom that I have introduced a bill that I think will provide more interest to the rural communities of Ontario through the agricultural societies than does this amendment. The bill --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "There are not too many left." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "Oh, indeed there are; 268 of them to be exact. If the member doesn’t consider that “many” in rural Ontario I think that indicates the lack of interest of his party in rural Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "He doesn’t like the farmers." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Shame, shame.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "Among several other amendments to update the Act to modern times, Mr. Speaker, the bill allows our government to provide grants to the local agricultural society to sponsor amateur contests within the orbit of their own agricultural society. We think this is a great opportunity to develop talent among the young people of rural Ontario, and we feel very keenly that this is something that would be of great benefit. The bill also provides for farmstead improvement competitions to be carried out by local agricultural societies. It provides as well substantial grants for the carrying out of light horse shows in connection with agricultural society activities." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)", "text": [ "Very good." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. W. J. Nuttall (Frontenac-Addington)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, before the orders of the day, I would like to announce the 1974 centennial year of the Ontario Veterinary Association. By the way, this is the oldest association in the Province of Ontario. I would like to introduce in the members’ gallery. Dr. Brian Sorrell, the president of the Ontario Veterinary Association, and his good wife.", "With your indulgence, Mr. Speaker, I would like to give a little history; I don’t get very much opportunity to give a history on the veterinaries in this province. In 1862 the charter of the Ontario Veterinary College was granted with the first classes held in 1864. The first lecture was in the agricultural hall of the University of Toronto on Yonge St.; the anatomical clinics were held in an old shed on Temperance St. As members know, it was moved to Guelph in 1922 because of the inability to get clinical analysts. On May 8, 1964, the University of Guelph incorporated the Ontario Agricultural College and Ontario Veterinary College and other facilities.", "I would like to read the Ontario Veterinary Association’s centennial announcement:", "“1974 is the centennial year of the Ontario Veterinary Association. Veterinarians across the province have justifiable pride in their association which has, in large part, helped to foster the competence and effectiveness apparent today in so many veterinary disciplines.", "“The Ontario Veterinary Association was founded by 27 veterinarians in 1874, and received its provincial charter the same year. The chief aims then as now were to promote the welfare of animal patients and the competence of practitioners.", "“Presently 1,400 veterinarians serve Ontario. Each year they must register with their association in order to practice. The Ontario Veterinary Association includes within its membership regulatory employees working in meat inspection and infectious diseases control, research and diagnostic personnel, veterinarians who have made a career in the care and treatment of pets, livestock or wildlife of every description, and others employed as teachers, in industry and in fields of public health.", "“All Ontario veterinarians as well as many colleagues throughout Canada and many foreign countries are proud to proclaim centennial year, 1974. They are pleased and humbled to have your recognition of this milestone as a second century is anticipated.”", "Thank you." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Orders of the day." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Clerk of the House", "text": [ "The second order, resuming the adjourned debate on the amendment to the amendment to the motion for an address in reply to the speech of the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor at the opening of the session." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Wellington-Dufferin." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. Root (Wellington-Dufferin)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, when I was speaking for a few moments on. Tuesday evening or afternoon, I was paying tribute to the work that has been done in northern Ontario by this government, and the various programmes for future development in that area -- highways through to James Bay and the possibility of a port on James Bay." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. Haggerty (Welland South)", "text": [ "Will that be ready --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Root", "text": [ "As well as a power line through to James Bay. These are just continuations of the programmes that have been followed, as I said, since the Progressive Conservative Party assumed office. I refer to the many highways that did not exist when I first came into this House. We built a new highway all the way from the Soo around the head of the lakes through to Atikokan, to Fort Frances, into Red Lake, into Manitouwadge, Elliot Lake and Hornepayne, just to mention a few, there are many others.", "I think it’s a wonderful record of achievement, what the government has accomplished in that part of the province, and it intends to continue those programmes. I mentioned the norOntair air service which is bringing the province really close together as I know myself. I have left Toronto in the morning, been as far as Sioux Lookout, held a hearing and been back that evening. I’ve been to Red Lake and back the same evening.", "And so with better roads, a better air service, Ontario is becoming a compact unit -- and we don’t hear this talk about northern Ontario wanting to set up a separate province." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "Tell us about the condition on Highway 3 from Fort Erie to Windsor." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Root", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am interested in the suggestion that tourist operators, small business and service industries will benefit from improved loan programmes and financial assistance. This is from the Throne Speech. Operators of small business will receive more help and advice in solving management problems.", "I know that everyone will be interested in seeing this programme develop. Our smaller businesses are having difficulty competing with some of the large business and industrial operations. It is my hope that more assistance will be given in the way of more incentives for industries to move out of the large urban areas into the smaller centres and make it possible for people to obtain employment and a good living in these smaller centres, instead of being forced to drive into the heavily congested areas of large cities to find employment.", "For a number of reasons I feel these smaller centres should be developed. We know that in the large cities great problems are developing with regard to the movement of traffic, at times air pollution, and the high cost of housing -- to mention but a few. I often think that if we ever had a national emergency, such as a war, it would be a great asset to this province and to this nation if we had our industry and population decentralized as much as practical.", "I want to make another suggestion, and that is with regard to the collection of the sales tax. I feel the small businessman should receive a reasonable remuneration for his efforts. I think we all realize that he has to keep accurate records, since we have inspectors going around from time to time to see that the tax is being collected and sent on to the government. The people who do the inspection are paid. I realize there may be a problem with the large corporations receiving the lion’s share of any payment that might be made, so I would suggest that payment would be considered on a percentage basis with a ceiling on the amount that any one merchant could receive. In that way there would be a full recognition of this important service that these small businessmen are rendering to the province.", "I can never understand why the opposition came out against sales tax. Everyone knows that we have to get revenue somewhere. I think if we look at the fact that some 20 million visitors come to the province annually, most of these people are coming from areas where they have sales tax. So that on sales tax we collect a large amount of revenue that does not come from our own people." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Poppycock!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Root", "text": [ "I suppose the member wants to collect it from our own people.", "We collect revenue from the rent of rooms, for meals over $4, liquor revenue, gasoline revenue -- to mention but a few, and there are many other purchases that are made. So I feel that the people who argue that we should not have sales tax are really saying they feel we should collect all of our money from our own people, and then when we leave the province pay sales tax in other areas. To me that is simply ridiculous. Here is a source of revenue, much of which comes from people who are in the habit of paying sales tax and have no objection to paying it. We would not have 20 million visitors in Ontario each year if they objected to our tax.", "I was pleased to see in the Throne Speech that legislation will be introduced concerning negotiations between the teaching profession and school boards.", "Mr. Speaker, there has to be a better way of resolving disputes that cannot be settled without closing down the schools and turning the children -- the greatest asset this province possesses -- out on the street.", "I think we are all concerned about compulsory arbitration. Perhaps some of the teachers and school boards do not like the thought of compulsory arbitration, but at the same time there is compulsory membership in the teachers’ federation.", "I think we have to find some way to resolve these differences of opinion in a fair and equitable manner. The taxpayer has put up billions of dollars to support our school system. Last year we voted over $2 billion for the three levels of education, and in addition the local taxpayers paid over $1.2 billion. Having put up that kind of money to build schools, the people having elected boards, the boards having hired staff and teachers, the public will not tolerate having this system closed down because some teachers and some boards cannot reach a satisfactory agreement. There has to be a better way.", "When I look at our budget for education -- last year over $2.2 billion -- and I think back to what the budget was when the Conservative Party took over after nine years of Liberal administration, we can be proud of what we have done for education in this province. When I ran in my first election the total budget for everything in the province was around $100 million. Last year we voted over $87 million for the teachers’ pension fund alone, and over $2 billion for the educational programme.", "I am sure that everyone will support the suggestion in the Throne Speech that an income support programme be proposed which will assist in achieving a greater measure of security for Ontario’s older citizens and for the disabled. A proposal also will be made for a prescription drug plan for senior citizens.", "I am pleased to know that a health education programme will be prepared, providing information on such health hazards as alcohol, tobacco and other drugs, and to encourage better use of our public health care system. I feel that too often we may have been swayed in our judgement by the clamour of opposition members and others asking for more liberalized liquor policies. We may have been swayed by the smooth advertising that we see on television and in the press. I can only say that that advertising does not conform with what I have in my files when I am trying to help solve the problems that are created by the extensive use of alcoholic beverages.", "The Ontario Safety League released information in February this year pointing out that alcohol is involved in approximately 50 per cent of the fatal automobile accidents in Canada. It plays a role in causing other types of accidents -- in the home, skiing, snowmobiling, boating, and so forth. These mishaps bring the total accidental death toll in Canada to some 12,000 each year and injuries to more than four million, leading to an estimated economic loss of $2 billion.", "During the discussion of the estimates at the last session I raised the question of the cost of alcohol problems to the health system or programme. The Addiction Research Foundation provided certain information, estimating that the expenditures attributable to alcoholism, about the normal expectancy, were calculated at $89 million in the public hospital system. In the psychiatric hospital system the figure was $16.8 million. Studies among social agencies have calculated, expenditures at $8.5 million attributable to alcohol in the welfare programme under the Family Benefits Act. Under the children’s aid programme, expenditures attributable to alcoholism were $11 million. Some $8.6 million was given to the Addiction Research Foundation.", "In other words, an expenditure of some $134 million in the fields that I have mentioned is attributable to alcohol. I think that we should realize that the above costs do not include such items as physicians’ fees, municipal welfare payments, traffic accidents and deaths associated with alcohol use, loss of productivity and manpower in business and industry, jail and correctional institution costs, and a number of other indices that should be calculated to arrive at a reasonable approximation of the total costs.", "The Research Foundation confirms the figures of the Ontario Safety League that approximately 50 per cent of deaths through traffic accidents are associated with the use of alcohol. It also points out that approximately six per cent of the employee force of a number of major industries is alcoholics, and the death rate of alcoholics is approximately double that of the normal population.", "I put these figures in the record to indicate that health and social costs to our population should be weighed very carefully when matters of policy in regard to alcoholic beverages are being considered. I think that we all realize that alcohol, tobacco and drugs do create a health problem. I can understand when some groups, and I could refer to the Mennonite people, wonder why they are forced into a common insurance scheme to finance the programmes that have accelerated costs because of the consumption of alcohol, tobacco and drugs. This affects not only our health insurance costs; it also affects automobile insurance premiums.", "I am sure that everyone will want to support the government in any steps that are taken to make the public aware of the problems and costs that are associated with these matters. I noticed in the Toronto Star on Tuesday, March 19, that teen car deaths have doubled since the drinking age was lowered.", "I was quite interested in the suggestion that the Ministry of Correctional Services is endeavouring to have a private business operate the packing plant at the correctional centre at Guelph. I made a lot of effort to have that new packing plant established as a training institution for inmates and as another market for farmers in the area. I will be greatly interested to see how this experiment works out. It seems to me that if we can provide a training for the people who serve time in these centres and fit them to go out and take their place in life, it will be a worthwhile experiment, and no doubt can be carried through into other phases of the correctional institutions programme.", "I note that we will be asked to consider provision for mandatory use of automobile seatbelts.", "I served on the select committee on highway safety, and at that time it was pointed out that in certain types of accidents, particularly head-on collisions, seatbelts could save lives. But at the same time, in another type of accident where a car is hit broadside and turned over, a seatbelt could be the cause of a fatality. I would suggest that very careful consideration should be given to the suggestion that it be mandatory to use seatbelts. I have had people come to me and say: “If I had had a seatbelt on in the accident, I could have been killed.”", "I am pleased to note that we will be asked to approve legislation which will require an environmental assessment of major new development projects. I have always favoured public hearings to inform the public what is in mind and to get their reaction before final decisions are made on these major projects.", "During the years that I have served on the Ontario Water Resources Commission and the Environmental Hearing Board, I have sat on over 350 public hearings from one end of this province to the other; and I have found that at the public hearing the applicant is more conscious of his responsibility’ if he has to face the public and explain what he has in mind.", "In the main the public want information regarding the project that is the subject of the hearing before a decision is made. Most reasonable people accept sound projects if they at least have a chance to express their views and have the project explained.", "Mr. Speaker, to establish a corridor from Bradley junction to the Pickering-Nanticoke line, Hydro held three series of meetings to get the reaction of local people. However, the meeting opened up to include an area from part way across Waterloo county, over Wellington county and over most of the county of Dufferin.", "These meetings were held in the first place to get the environmental impact of lines running through the area. The first series of meetings was to get the environmental impact on the whole area, regardless of where the lines might go. The second series was held on the basis of the input of the first series and showed possible corridors. Now, in the third series, they have come out with a pretty definite proposal as to where the power should go through.", "I have attended six of these meetings and have watched the reaction of people. In the main, the farm people are reasonable people. Until they had some idea where the lines might go, they had little to say. But on the other hand the environmentalists, who are not particularly interested in the production of food but are more interested in maintaining the ecology, the wildlife, the recreational areas, were quite vocal.", "I think that this had some effect on Hydro’s second series of meetings, when they came back with a number of suggestions on possible corridors. When the farm people began to realize that these corridors in many areas were going over good agricultural land, they began to become more vocal.", "An engineer in my home township of Erin, Mr. John Schneider, who had given a lot of thought to how best to get the connecting links built, made a suggestion that they bring all the power down in one corridor to join the Nanticoke-Pickering line at Highway 401 and go through the gap adjoining Highway 401.", "Hydro objected this suggestion, indicating they did not want all their lines together in case of storm or sabotage, or perhaps an airplane crash, which could really disrupt the whole system. They said they would like to have two lines. A suggestion was made that one line might cross the escarpment at Limehouse instead of bringing all of the power through west of Guelph.", "Mr. Schneider made another proposal, that they take the power across from Bradley junction to Essa and bring it down to the Pickering-Nanticoke line on an existing corridor that goes north from Woodbridge and Kleinburg. Apparently at the present time there is space in this corridor for the line. This proposal would have widened the gap between the two lines and provided the protection that Hydro wanted.", "Mr. Speaker, you will find the reference to the Bruce to Essa proposal on page 54 of the Solandt commission report. It was argued that the use of this route would greatly increase the security of the power transmission from Bruce to Toronto load centre, and it would make it reasonable to concentrate the rest of the Bruce power and the power from Nanticoke in one corridor parallel to Highway 401.", "Solandt goes on to say that this proposal received considerable popular support at the hearings. As far as the commission knows there was no one in the area affected by the Bruce to Essa line at the meeting, so it was unlikely there would have been any opposition expressed. Ontario Hydro looked at the proposal very carefully and discussed the pros and cons in presentation and cross-examination before the commission. They say Ontario had repeatedly expressed its opposition to system R on both security and aesthetic grounds. During the cross-examination they did agree that the proposal -- this is the Bruce to Essa proposal -- would improve the security system for the short-term future, but felt that the Bruce to Essa proposal had no other advantages. Hon. members can read the comments regarding the Bruce to Essa proposal on pages 54 and 55 of the Solandt report.", "I am interested in the last paragraph on page 55, where Dr. Solandt says: “Following the close of the commission hearings, the group submitted a final paper on their proposal. Further studies of the proposals convinced me that it would not be easy to find a socially and environmentally acceptable route for the Bruce to Essa line, because it might have to traverse some of the most popular scenic and recreational terrain in southern Ontario. Since Ontario Hydro presented convincing evidence that the Bruce to Essa line would not produce useful improvement in the transmission system, the commission concludes that no further consideration should be given to the Bruce to Essa line.”", "Mr. Speaker, that comment really disturbed me. The opposition to the line was because it would traverse some of the most popular scenic and recreational terrain in southern Ontario. I think it is time that the government and Hydro realized that the production of food and good agricultural land are just as important, or in my opinion more important, than preserving popular scenic and recreational terrain in southern Ontario.", "On pages 26 and 27, Mr. Speaker, you will read Dr. Solandt’s comments regarding the Limehouse crossing. Keep in mind that to reach Limehouse the power line will have to come over some of the finest agricultural land in Wellington and Dufferin counties. Indeed in the southern part of this line, as you come in to my home township of Erin and go on through into Halton Hills, you will find very scenic recreation areas that will either have to be affected, or the lines in my cases go across class 1 and 2 farm land.", "You will note on page 27 where Dr. Solandt says all available alternatives were carefully considered before the commission reluctantly came to the conclusion that on balance this was the route that the transmission line should take. That statement indicates to me that Dr. Solandt had some doubts that on balance the Limehouse crossing was the right crossing. So I suggest, Mr. Speaker, before any final decision is made regarding where the second line will go that very careful thought be given with regard to priorities.", "This province has an abundance of recreational areas. It has a limited amount of choice agricultural land. In, my opinion to put the preference on the scenic and recreational areas above choice agricultural land is a wrong decision. And so, Mr. Speaker, I would ask that a very careful analysis be made of the impact of bringing a line from the Bradley junction to Limehouse as one of the proposed routes in Wellington and Dufferin counties, funnelling them to the scenic township of Erin to cross the border into the Halton Hills to approach the Limehouse crossing to join the Nanticoke-Pickering Line.", "I can only say, Mr. Speaker, that the farm people of Wellington county are greatly concerned. The various lines that may lead into Erin township cross practically every municipality in the area that I have the honour to represent. I would be remiss in my duties if I did not say the government had better take another look at crossing over on low-grade agricultural land and coming down on the Essa-Kleinburg corridor which we are advised has space for another line. I know that Hydro feel that sometime in the future they may want that space, but with advancing technology and the possibility of underground lines in the future, surely we don’t have to criss-cross over choice agricultural land when there are other alternatives available.", "Mr. Speaker, I want to be fair and say that the farm people appreciate what Hydro has done in the way of rural electrification. Hydro has completely changed the rural way of life. One of the reasons that I ran in my first election was that after nine years of Liberal administration we were still farming with the same lamps and lanterns that our parents and grandfathers had used. In Dufferin 81 per cent of the farmers had no power, and 75 per cent in Wellington.", "All of that has been changed and we appreciate that. We know it is in the interests of everyone to have this grid system established.", "Since we are producing power by nuclear energy, from fossil fuels and from hydraulic power there has to be the ability to move power back and forth, but we are not happy to see the lines go over choice agricultural land if there are any reasonable alternatives. I realize that Hydro is in a difficult spot, having to conduct its own public hearings; and I can see the advantage of having an environmental assessment board looking at these projects instead of asking Hydro itself to hold the hearings.", "Mr. Speaker, I hope the explorers of Hydro corridors and other matters affecting the farm people in Ontario will receive very careful consideration in the Natural resources policy field. I would hope the people of Ontario will realize they are going to have to pay more attention to the people who work seven days a week producing the food they consume, or they will find that fewer and fewer people will stay on the farm.", "Six years ago, in 1968, members will find in Hansard certain comments I made regarding agriculture. At that time the government had come out for a 48-hour week and an eight-hour day, and the opposition tried to suggest it should be a 40-hour week. I said I was surprised to see the Leader of the Opposition, the hon. member for Brant (Mr. R. F. Nixon), supporting this idea because, I said, we had never developed cows that would stop milking Friday nights and come back into production on Monday. No way can that be done. Hens persist in laying eggs over the weekend; and if a fanner didn’t look after his livestock and feed them he would have the Humane Society breathing down his neck.", "The hon. member for York South (Mr. MacDonald), who was then leader of the NDP, ridiculed me and said: “Just try that horse-and-buggy Tory policy in the next election and we’ll see what happens.” I want to say to him that I tried it and I had more votes than the candidate for his party, the Liberal Party and an independent had combined. The farm people want to be fair. They don’t mind people expressing their views --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. G. Nixon (Dovercourt)", "text": [ "Great stuff.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Root", "text": [ "But they realize that the position taken by the NDP, and at that time supported by the Liberals, would wipe out the family farm and would also wipe out a lot of small businesses. The only way anyone could operate a farm on a 40-hour week would be to have a corporation-type farm with enough labour to stagger the labour force.", "I will say this; it is very hard to secure competent labour on a farm today when in many industries there are 40-hour weeks. The farmer has to bid in the same labour pool. And make no mistake about it, young people on the farms today are getting the same education their city cousins receive. Because of the advanced policies of this government, we have open roads 12 months of the year, we have large, fine new schools and buses to deliver the children to the schools.", "Now if the NDP members think they are going to get the farm vote with their policies, I think they will be badly disillusioned. However, these policies could create a very serious situation as far as the production of food is concerned. Young people are not going to invest the kind of money necessary to establish a viable farm operation and buy the expensive equipment needed to operate it since labour costs have got so high -- and the cost of money is very high. So the young people are leaving the farm.", "In my own area I see farms being picked up by people from the cities -- some of them wealthy -- but the production of food is going down and the cost of food to the consumer is going up. I suggest that unless there is a change in these policies or greatly added incentives are given to the farmers, this whole situation will be aggravated.", "I understand the average dairy farmer today is about 58 years old. He can’t find young people to take over the operation so he sells off his herd, sells his farm and goes out of production. The same is happening in my own area with regard to beef farmers, hog breeders and so on.", "Many of the farms which two years ago were turning out herds of fat cattle today are growing grass, and some of them growing weeds. They are owned by people who are hoping to see development in the area, by people who are in some form of activity other than the production of food.", "Mr. Speaker, I want to congratulate our Minister of Agriculture and Food (Mr. Stewart) for the many forward-looking programmes he has presented to the Legislature -- including capital grants to help farmers become more efficient; paying half the farm taxes to get the cost of education off land, which will be a great help to legitimate farmers; and the legislation that lets a parent make a $50,000 once-in-a-lifetime gift to make it possible for a son to carry on the farming operation. These are some of the programmes making it possible for some of our young people to stay on the farm.", "I want to say, Mr. Speaker, a very serious situation is gradually developing. It was brought home to many of our people in recent months when we saw the cost of meats go up, as well as milk and potatoes. These products used to be produced all around me, and today the same farms are not in production.", "The government, and by all means the federal government which controls our international trade, must pay more attention to the welfare of the agricultural industry or the consumer is going to find the pension he thought he could live on will not buy the food he needs.", "At the present time we are not producing enough butter to butter our bread; the price of milk goes up as well, and so it goes. We haven’t seen the end of this unless some more positive measures are taken to protect good agricultural land and to encourage young people to stay on the farm.", "I am pleased to know that the government is taking a look at the framework of a revised Planning Act. I hope in the proposed changes they will not lose sight of the fact that many farmers could be on a sounder financial basis if they were able to secure a severance for points of land on the farm that are not fit for agriculture. In recent weeks I have had several farmers come to me and say: “If I could just get a severance and sell that point of land that I can’t farm I could get my financing in better shape and continue to farm.” Some of these men have said: “Since I can’t get a severance, I’m going to sell the farm and quit.”", "I would say the same about subdivisions in villages and towns, and I would commend the Ministry of the Environment for its programme to help finance needed services. I would hope the subdivisions plans would not be held up, but these smaller towns and villages would be allowed to grow to a point where they could economically supply water and adequately treat wastes. To keep these towns and villages too small creates a situation where they can’t attract the needed services, such as doctors, dentists, lawyers, and small industry.", "I am concerned about the size of some of our cities. We are building these cities, in many cases, on some of the best farm land in Canada. They are getting so large we are creating traffic problems, pollution problems and housing problems. But people have to live somewhere, so I would hope that we would make it possible for people to establish their homes in other parts of the province if they would like to live there; and perhaps give incentives to move certain types of industry out of the large centres. Restricting development in some areas plays into the hands of a developer in the unrestricted area. I think the old law of competition, supply and demand, would solve some of the problems that are not being solved under the present Planning Act.", "I think it is a good move to get the planning and subdivision controls back to the local municipalities. I am hopeful this will help resolve the problems and congestion in the large centres, allow these villages and towns to become viable units; and perhaps let some of the farmers get on a sounder financial basis by separating and selling, for estate-type homes, points of land on the farm that will never be farmed.", "Mr. Speaker, I am interested in the suggestion of a home renewal programme, with grants to homeowners and municipalities for preserving and up-grading the quality of existing housing in rural as well as in urban areas. Many of the fine old homes that were built a century or more ago can be rehabilitated and used. In fact the home my grandfather built in 1865 is where I still live. The bricks were made across the road on the Awrey farm. The Awreys pioneered in my part of Erin township, put a dam on a stream, operated a mill, opened a brickyard and made the brick for five or six houses in the same area.", "I am sure that as time goes on we will learn a lesson from the European countries where the older buildings are now a major tourist attraction. So I would say that wherever possible, buildings that are sound and can be renewed should be renewed, rather than knocking them down and putting up some of the newer buildings, which because of the high cost of living and material do not have the same type of material and workmanship in their construction.", "Mr. Speaker, I have talked longer than I originally intended, but still I have many more things I would like to say. Perhaps at some time in the future I will put my thoughts on record.", "I want to thank you, sir, and the members, for the opportunity of making a few remarks." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I understand by agreement of the House the hon. member for Sandwich-Riverside, who adjourned the debate on the previous day, will complete his remarks at this time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. F. A. Burr (Sandwich-Riverside)", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As you realize, of course, most of the remarks I made on Monday and the ones I am going to make today are addressed primarily to the Minister of Energy (Mr. McKeough) although, of course, he wasn’t present and isn’t present now. He is the one I must convince. Although I gave a somewhat similar speech during the debate on the establishing of the Ministry of Energy back on June 14 last year, the new Minister of Energy failed to get my message from what I was saying at that time. I summed up my remarks on that occasion with these words: “There are two points I am trying to make. The first is that the nuclear fission system is a controversial, hazardous one and in any event uses an exhaustible source of fuel. The other is that it is unnecessary to resort to nuclear fission because there are so many kinds of power that can be developed and, with a little expenditure on technology, these could be brought into use on a wide scale in a relatively short time.”", "This seemed to me to be a fairly clear statement that I wanted nothing to do with nuclear fission. Although the minister was present on that occasion and even made some unusually humble remarks to the effect that he was not qualified to debate the subject with me, nevertheless a month later he concluded a letter to me by saying, and I quote: “As you have said, I believe, nuclear generation must fit into the system in a balanced way.” Mr. Speaker, I have never said such a thing.", "Until I became aware in the last couple of years that there were alternatives -- alternative feasible sources of energy; far better alternatives in fact -- I had become reconciled, reluctantly of course, to living with more and more nuclear power. But now that I know that many reliable scientists have assured us of the feasibility of the other sources of energy, I cannot remain silent on this subject. I am sure that my reaction is a normal human reaction: Tolerate what cannot be changed but try to change what cannot be tolerated.", "Someone has asked me whether I am expressing official NDP policy. At the federal NDP convention in July, 1973, there was a lengthy discussion out of which a three-page policy statement on energy emerged. Included was the following: “There are serious unresolved problems in nuclear energy production. We believe that the federal government must undertake extensive research into, first, various types of reactors; second, methods of disposal of nuclear wastes; third, thermal pollution, and fourth, radiation hazards.”", "Mr. Speaker, as long as we have any nuclear power plants in operation I agree with this position wholeheartedly. But I go further and say: Now that it is no longer necessary, forget the whole thing; phase it out. Under the topic of energy research, the federal NDP convention recommended that the federal government should undertake the chief research role in the energy field, and I quote: “We need research in areas such as, first, new sources of energy including solar, geothermal and tidal power. We should seek sources which are least harmful to people and the environment.” What better description of solar power or wind power could one want than that, Mr. Speaker?", "Just a month ago, on Feb. 27, the Montreal Star interviewed Sir George Porter, a British 1967 Nobel Prize winner in chemistry. He warned of the perils of going nuclear and said that the sun’s rays could be harnessed to meet man’s needs for power. He was not worried so much about the clandestine making of atomic bombs by unauthorized persons as he was by sabotage of a nuclear plant by the use of a simple conventional bomb. I quote him: “Ordinary nuclear reactors have more than enough plutonium in them to poison countless people. What really worries me is the possibility of sabotage and the fact that the world is as anarchic as it is. We now have more sabotage and terrorism in the world than we have ever had in the past.” Sir George Porter said that if one-tenth of one per cent of the effort in manpower and money already devoted to the development of nuclear power had been allocated for solar energy research, the energy problem would have been solved by now.", "An award-winning series of articles began in the Windsor Star of June 25, 1973, entitled, “Nuclear Power: A Blessing or Eventual Curse?” I don’t know whether the Windsor Star or their writer, Brian Vallee, took any bow for this article but I should like to extend my belated congratulations to them both.", "This is an objectively written article, presenting as one can tell from the title, both sides of the controversy. I quote:", "“When you talk about peaceful uses of the atom, such as power plants, the argument becomes more subtle because there are seemingly intelligent well-meaning people on both sides of the nuclear argument.", "“On the one side, you have people in industry and government, hailing nuclear power as the only means of rolling back the impending energy crisis and as a boon to a cleaner environment.", "“On the other hand, you have responsible ecologists, scientists and people like consumer advocate Ralph Nader, deploring proliferation of nuclear power plants.”", "Later, the article says: “But Dr. Fred Knelman, a prominent nuclear critic, whose department at Montreal’s Sir George Williams University studies the social consequences of technology, says that serious accidents at nuclear power plants are inevitable.", "“Dr. Knelman says the Pickering plant is reasonably safe compared to other industrial installations, with one basic exception: ‘The risk involved in an accident is totally out of proportion with the risk in any other kind of plant.’", "“He says that a United States Senate committee has estimated that if an airplane hit a nuclear power plant roughly the size of Pickering, or if there were some other major accident which caused radioactive material to be spewed out over a residential area, the cost would be [according to this Senate committee] $5 billion as well as hundreds or even thousands of lives.”", "I should mention, Mr. Speaker, that the accident estimates that have been made by the authorities are based on the assumption that nuclear plants are at least 30 miles from metropolitan areas, which accounts for the rather low estimate of immediate fatalities.", "The Windsor Star article reported that Dr. Knelman said the United States is having serious problems in two of its plants in the United States itself and in a third built by the Americans in Switzerland. I quote: “The cylindrical materials that hold the fuel have cracked and they don’t really know why. This is terribly serious because they are getting a direct leak of hot fuel.", "“Dr. Knelman said there had also been a continuous series of accidents at the large atomic dump where all the waste materials from all the United States nuclear plants are sent. The dump is located in Hanford, Wash., on the Columbia River.", "“’The accidents have involved the escape of hot radioactive materials, and the Columbia River is now the most radioactive body of water in the world.’", "“Dr. Knelman referred with shock to what he termed ‘the bland statement’ of Dr. Alvin Weinberg, and AEC research director, who ‘hopes that science will have solved the problem of disposal of long-life radioactive waste by the year 2020,’ at which time he expects one nuclear plant to come into operation each day, somewhere in the world.", "“’Dr. Weinberg is a technological euphoric who believes that technology will solve all the problems it creates. It’s what I call the theology of technology. It’s pure faith. It has not worked in the past and why he expects it to work in the future, I don’t understand.’", "“The Atomic Energy Commission has been forced by independent scientists to eat its own pronouncements so often that I think it must suffer from verbal indigestion.”", "Dr. Knelman also said that when strontium 90 was first mentioned, the Atomic Energy Commission said there was no hazard involved at all, unless a person accidentally swallowed a bone splinter which would be highly unlikely. They didn’t acknowledge at all the biological route that strontium takes. When it lands on grazing grass and cows eat it, it gets into milk and then into children.", "The chairman of Ontario Hydro made a public statement in the early part of 1973, defending Hydro’s promotional advertising policy. One of his arguments was that if Hydro stopped advertising there would be an acceleration in the demand for scarce fuels, such as oil and natural gas. Now obviously this does not refer to lighting; therefore, it must refer to heating. What Mr. Gathercole seemed to be saying is that greater use of electricity for heating is a desirable goal. If Ontario Hydro produced all its power from water -- that ever-renewable source of energy -- who could disagree? But as it is, any further increase in electricity for heating purposes in Ontario uses up power derived from one of the fossil fuels, all of which are unrenewable.", "Because electric heating makes use of only 30 per cent of the fossil fuels that produce it -- in other words 70 per cent of the energy is lost in making electricity from fossil fuels -- we are merely using fossil fuels much more inefficiently when we increase our use of electricity made from those fossil fuels for the purpose of home heating.", "It is true that greater reserves of coal exist than of oil and gas, but coal is still considered a dirty fuel at the station where it is converted into electricity.", "The great fallacy in Mr. Gathercole’s arguments lies, of course, in the fact that he ignores those alternative sources of energy which are all renewable, and in most instances unpolluting. I refer to solar radiation power, wind power, and the use of wood to create electric power; organic methane gas is a fourth source.", "On a continental basis there are also geothermal power, sea thermal power and tidal power. All are 100 per cent safe, all are non-polluting and all are renewable. Ontario Hydro ignores these sources. It hands out to visitors at the Pickering nuclear power plant literature published by the Canadian Nuclear Association. It has these opening words: “Question: Is nuclear power necessary? Answer: In fact there is today no alternative if we are to conserve the world’s resources of fuel.” Now if one can swallow this transparent falsehood, one can swallow everything else one is told by the literature handed out by Ontario Hydro and published by the Canadian Nuclear Association.", "Nuclear energy itself is a non-renewable source of energy. Nuclear power might conserve other sources of fuel temporarily but it uses up unrenewable uranium in the process.", "Ontario Hydro has a public relations division paid to hand out or produce misleading statements of this kind. Apparently carried away by its own rhetoric, which I have just quoted, it repeats the statement by paraphrasing it as follows: “Only by substituting nuclear fuels for fossil fuels can we meet the increasing demand for electricity.” Then it adds: “And not only preserve but enhance our environment.”", "There, Mr. Speaker, is a most remarkable flight of imagination -- to avoid using unparliamentary language.", "On the contrary, nuclear power is the one source of energy capable of destroying our environment beyond redemption. The other forms of energy, especially solar energy, and including wind energy -- to avoid repeating a whole list -- are 100 per cent safe and 100 per cent perpetually renewable. Yet the public relations division of Ontario Hydro tells us, and I repeat it: “Only by substituting nuclear fuels for fossil fuels can we meet the increasing demand for electricity, and not only preserve but enhance our environment.”", "These are falsehoods, Mr. Speaker, that I shall try to expose wherever the occasion presents itself. It matters not that the PR people attribute these words to Dr. G. M. Shrum. They are manifestly false no matter who says them. The PR men then produce a third gem:", "“Question: Does nuclear power pollute? Answer: Nuclear power plants do not discharge smoke, sulphur dioxide, or oxide of nitrogen to the atmosphere and there are no unsightly piles of fuel and fuel handling equipment. The plants require less space than a fossil fuel plant and are more architecturally acceptable.”", "As far as it goes that statement is accurate. Nuclear power plants do not produce visible air pollution and they are aesthetically more pleasing to the eye, but this is a very narrow interpretation of pollution. What happens to the spent fuel? What happens to the mountains of uranium tailings at the mine, a byproduct of the process that produces fuel for nuclear power plants? Both before it is used to boil water and afterwards, this fuel is the worst of all possible pollutants.", "Nuclear power does pollute. Thermal pollution and radioactive emissions are unavoidable when nuclear fission is in operation. In Par Pond, where the Oak Ridge laboratory dumps some of its low-level wastes, it was found that even when the concentration of cesium 137 was only three-hundredths of a millionth of a millionth of a curie, the flesh of bass caught in the pond contained 1,000 times this amount. Similarly, strontium 90 in the bones of bluegill was 2,000 times the level in the water and radioactive zinc was 8,720 times the level in the water. In the Columbia River, into which the Hanford nuclear plant discharges, larvae of a certain kind achieve concentrations 350,000 times that of the level in the water. Birds also concentrate radioactivity, and being higher up the food chain they end up with correspondingly higher concentrations.", "In the United States there are now 30 million tons of sand-like radioactive uranium tailings usually lying in uncovered heaps being washed and blown by rain and wind into various water systems. In Colorado, the San Miguel River was found to contain 30 times the acceptable level of radiation as the result of uranium tailings washed into its waters.", "Uranium miners, at least in the United States, according to a publication “The Atomic Establishment,” have consistently suffered almost three times greater incidence of lung cancer than the rest of the population, although the onset of cancer may be delayed from 10 to 12 years after initial exposure often after the men have retired or turned to other forms of employment. So what price the lives of the Elliot Lake miners?", "These then are some of the terrible costs we must pay to use nuclear fission. They cannot be figured in cold cash, but we must take them into consideration.", "Let us, to avoid further argument, assume that during the boiling of the water -- out of which comes steam and eventually electricity -- there may be no significant escape of radioactive effluent into the environment. In other words, let’s just assume that the operation of the nuclear plants is harmless to the environment.", "We come then to the possibility of a major accident at a nuclear plant. Keep in mind that the nuclear fission promoters plan in the next 30 years 100 new nuclear power plants in Canada -- all the size of the one at Pickering. The Atomic Energy Commission in the United States plants to license about 1,000 large nuclear power plants in the next 30 years, a plan that would produce the radioactive equivalent of one million Hiroshima bombs every year -- plus 600,000 lbs of plutonium 239 annually. Just one pound of plutonium -- which has a half life of 24,360 years -- escaping into the environment and inhaled eventually by human beings, could cause several billion cases of lung cancer.", "Is it any wonder that many atomic scientists are appalled by the consequences of unsuccessful containment of radioactivity. Dr. Hannes Alfven, the 1970 Nobel laureate for physics, says: “In a full-scale fission programme, the radioactive waste will soon become so enormous that a total poisoning of our planet is possible”. That is in the bulletin of the Atomic Scientist of September, 1971.", "Soon afterwards, in the December, 1971, issue of Nuclear News, the director of the AEC’s Oak Ridge national laboratory, Dr. Alvin Weinberg, said: “Technical deficiencies in a plutonium economy, if unremediable, could mean catastrophe for the human race.” In Science, Feb. 25, 1972, the former director of the AEC’s Argonne National Laboratory, Dr. Albert Crewe, after discussion of the medical foresight, the engineering skill and the administrative controls required by nuclear technology, summarized as follows: “Should any of these three lines of defence fail, then the entire population of the world would be in serious danger”.", "Mr. Speaker, we spank little children for playing with matches. What should we do to those human beings who are foisting upon us the unthinkable hazards of nuclear power?", "Let us return to the consideration of the possibilities of a major accident at a nuclear plant as described by Gordon Edwards, a mathematician at the University of British Columbia, to whom I am indebted for this and some other sections of my remarks. He says: “A single, relatively small, 100 megawatt reactor, after one year of operation contains more radioactive cesium, strontium and iodine than all the nuclear weapon tests ever conducted.” “In its famous Brookhaven report of 1957,” he says: “The AEC indicated what the results of a single major accident at a relatively small -reactor 40 miles from a city might be: 3,000 to 4,000 deaths immediately from radiation poisoning; 50,000 deaths later on from radiation-induced injuries; up to 150 square miles of land contaminated -- not to mention contamination of water supplies and evacuation of half a million people.", "“The Brookhaven report goes on to say that the probability of such an accident occurring is so low as to be almost inconceivable. This is a most unscientific statement, as the probability of most accidents is so low as to be almost zero.”", "Gordon Edwards asked: “How do you compute the probability of an accident? Do you include or do you exclude the possibility of sabotage? Do you include the possibility of war? Do you exclude the possibility of an undeclared war? What would happen if an old-fashioned conventional bomb were dropped on a reactor? Do you include the possibility of an airplane crashing into a reactor? Remember, Pickering is going to be the site of a huge airport as well as the site of the huge reactor. As recently as November, 1972, we witnessed the spectacle of a band of hijackers threatening to crash a plane into a nuclear installation at Oak Ridge.”", "As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, the nuclear installation was evacuated but the hijackers changed their minds for which we should all be very thankful. But it could happen accidentally, too.", "“All this does not begin to consider the very real possibility of a large industrial accident occurring within the plant as a result of mechanical and/or human failure. Accidents have occurred at Chalk River, resulting in the release of 10,000 curies of fission products; at the Enrico Fermi plant between Toledo and Detroit leading to a partial meltdown of the core and fears of explosion; and at the Windscale plant in Great Britain which spewed out vast quantities of radioactive debris; and at others.", "“In 1970 there was a close call at the huge Hanford reactor and a failure at the Oak Ridge research reactor. The latter involved an almost unbelievable combination of three separate human errors, two installation errors and three design errors.” According to my mathematics, Mr. Speaker, that is really eight human errors.", "“There is another danger after the fuel has served its purpose -- the very serious problem of waste disposal. Where this involves transportation to a disposal site, we have the eventual, inevitable railway or highway accident to face. Another problem is that plutonium, the essential ingredient for making atom bombs inexpensively, will almost certainly become a black market item. When one thinks of the possibilities for terrorists and demented persons, this one reason alone should force the abandonment of the entire nuclear programme involving plutonium 239.”", "On Oct. 10, 1972, Sen. Mike Gravel, who is leading the call for a nuclear moratorium in the United States, summed up the matter briefly as follows:", "“I would point out that nuclear safety involves far more than just the reactors. Necessarily involved are the nuclear fuel reprocessing plants; nuclear waste storage and burial practices; radioactive transport practices; anti-sabotage measures; plutonium processing hazards; routine leakage of radioactive poisons all along the line; plutonium diversion prospects; and the preservation of national security.", "“When the radioactive fission products and plutonium are shipped out of the power plants where they are produced, nuclear safety problems spread far and wide. Man cannot get rid of long-lived radioactivity once he has created it. He can move it around but it will always be somewhere. Some of it will have to be kept out of the environment for more than 100,000 years.", "“Because humans are fallible, careless and sometimes demented [and he might have added, Mr. Speaker, venal, malicious and stupid] it is unreasonable to assume that we shall achieve a miraculous 99.99 per cent success in the radioactive containment operation, year in and year out. Furthermore it is reckless to count on some special immunity for nuclear facilities when it comes to earthquakes, sabotage or war.”", "Because the literature handed out by the Canadian Nuclear Association and the public relations division of Ontario Hydro is prepared by persons skilled in public relations -- which often means in deceiving people or in brainwashing the public -- it is not surprising that the publication handed out in Pickering entitled “Nuclear Power and Our Environment in Canada” should give scarcely a hint of the immense dangers involved. Consider page 12 where we find: “One Canadian scientist’s reply to the question, ‘Is it safe to develop nuclear power?’ was, ‘Safer than not developing it.’ He meant that if we do not use nuclear energy we will have to use other means to provide power and thus compound our pollution problem.", "Perhaps the PR men are not really dishonest; perhaps, in fact probably, they are just ignorant of the several other pollution-free methods of harnessing energy without depleting our unrenewable, polluting, fossil fuel resources. Because of their ignoring the alternative forms of energy, they are preparing the public to support politically the dangerous and irrational policies of the relatively few people who have now become the nuclear establishment. The PR men’s job is to build prestige for the nuclear establishment.", "Report No. 3 of Task Force Hydro goes about this task with great vigour, especially in the name-dropping passages from pages 17 to 28. First of all it blithely assumes that nuclear power is the only alternative to fossil fuel, and having killed off all the good guys -- that is by eliminating from its terms of reference the genuinely clean and perpetually renewable forms of energy power, namely, solar, wind, wood, geothermal sea- thermal, tidal and organic methane -- it berates the present obvious air polluting disadvantages of fossil fuel power plants and touts, all-out, the nuclear power plant. In other words, it carries out a mock battle with the other bad guys -- the fossil fuels -- and ignores the existence of the really good guys whom I have listed.", "In its enthusiasm, report No. 3 fails to mention the huge quantities of energy needed to support the whole nuclear reactor scheme itself, the energy needed to mine uranium, the energy needed to refine uranium, the energy needed to produce heavy water, the energy required in reprocessing spent fuel, the energy required to built the nuclear reactors and to operate the generators, the energy required to transport spent fuel, and the energy required to entomb forever the radioactive wastes.", "A part of this speech, Mr. Speaker, was prepared almost a year ago, while we were awaiting the appointment of our Minister of Energy. The following sentence should perhaps be dropped from my remarks today because I have since obtained part of the answer. However, I’ll quote it: “It would be interesting to find out whether all the nuclear reactors in the United States and Canada have yet produced as much energy as they have already consumed to date.”", "As I pointed out in the first part of my speech on Monday, March 25, it was not until near the end of 1971 that the United States plants finally produced as much electrical energy as had been used in the uranium-enrichment plants. Of course, if all the other energy costs enumerated above were taken into consideration, it would be many more years before nuclear fission pays off its energy debt to society.", "Paragraph 2 of page 33 of the task force report refers to the extra costs of reducing air pollution from fossil fuel generators, implying that economic advantages thus accrue to nuclear plants. Yet paragraph 4 admits to the extra costs that will be incurred in attempting to improve protection from radiation hazards in nuclear stations. So I ask: Where is the saving?", "Task Force Hydro does take a brief look at the issue of radioactivity. Paragraph 5 reveals the absurdity of attempting to establish a so-called “safe level” of radiation. The International Commission on Radiological Protection has merely reached a consensus on a limit it is willing to recommend. The last sentence of the paragraph is an honest assessment -- as far as it goes. And I quote: “It should be noted, however, that since there is in effect no safe [in italics] threshold of radiation, there is an inherent difficulty in establishing protection standards.”", "That’s what it says. To be completely honest, the sentence should have added the words, “and still remaining in the nuclear reactor business.”", "So I shall repeat the basic sentence as amended to give the completely honest assessment. “Since there is in effect no safe threshold of radiation, there is an inherent difficulty in establishing protection standards and still remaining in the nuclear reactor business.”", "The propaganda sheet continues, “Is it safe?” and answers: “Nuclear power reactors have been in operation in the United States and Britain since the 1950s and in Canada since 1962. There has not been one single, fatal accident in any of them.”", "Now actually, an Idaho reactor exploded in 1961, killing three workers and discharging radioactivity into the atmosphere. Fortunately for others, the reactor was in an unpopulated part of the state.", "On Dec. 13, 1950, the Chalk River plant had an accident with an explosion, killing one and injuring five others. Only a small amount of material was involved in the explosion. According to reports, and I quote: “Only through good luck, 45,000 lb of the same material in an adjacent room did not detonate.”", "On Dec. 12, 1952, the NRX reactor at Chalk River suffered a “power surge” accident. Very high radiation was involved for workers -- between 20 and 100 roentgens an hour. An engineering magazine said at the time: “If 100 people were to receive a total body radiation of 400 roentgens, at least 50 would definitely have received a lethal dose. For this reason the normal health tolerance is limited to 300 milliroentgens per week per employee. However, had we attempted to apply this standard when working on this accident, we would have very quickly run out of manpower.” One wonders about the health status of these workers now, 21 years later.", "On May 23, 1958, an NRU reactor at Chalk River suffered what was called a “power burst” as a result of a fuel rod failure. Very wide contamination occurred inside the plant. It took 600 men, including men from the armed forces, over two months to clean it up. Mr. G. C. Laurence, former member of the Atomic Energy Control Board, said it was very fortunate that no one was hurt or suffered an overdose of radiation in that accident. I quote: “The material damage, however, was an impressive reminder of the latent energy and of the radioactive substances that could be released by accident. I was chairman of a small committee that inquired into the causes of that accident and it made me very dissatisfied with the reactor safety philosophy that prevailed then.”", "On May 3, 1973, the Wall Street Journal referred to a recent accident at the Virginia Electric Power Co. atomic plant in which two men were killed. This “recent” accident may be the same one that took place at the Surrey Plant in Virginia in July, 1972. On that occasion, two workmen were inspecting sets of malfunctioning valves when yet another valve exploded and killed them.", "So the statement, Mr. Speaker, that there has not been a single fatal accident at nuclear power reactors in the United States, Britain or Canada is simply not true. This propaganda, which I picked up at Information Canada last week, should be withdrawn. It deceives the public, as of course it is intended to do. As long as the public thinks that nuclear power is safe and clean, the public will accept it. When the public realizes that it has been deceived, that may be another story. This government must come clean with the public.", "In 1970 Consolidated Edison of New York had a pipe burst in its atomic plant. It took 700 men seven months to repair the pipe. In order to avoid exceeding radiation exposure limits, Consolidated Edison called in every one of the 700 welders in its whole system, its whole empire. A comparable repair in a conventional plant would have taken only two weeks and only 25 men.", "The president of Consolidated Edison spoke quite candidly to the Atomic Industrial Forum conference on Nov. 19, 1972. He said: “Nuclear power has not fulfilled its golden promise.” After referring to the exceptional number of delays, defects and breakdowns, he said: “Repairs have required inordinate amounts of time, manpower and money.” And he noted that radiation hazards slow the work.", "After this conference there were five cancellations of orders for nuclear plants, followed by at least two more important reversals, while Pacific Gas and Electric Co. seems to have renounced any future nuclear power involvement.", "The section on costs in the task force report, pages 39 to 42, contains all the units’ of normal accounting practice in dollars and cents and quotes projections for future performance. But there is not a word assessing the real costs of nuclear fission, which I shall try to summarize briefly:", "1. Costs to uranium miners in the threefold increase in incidence of lung cancer.", "2. Costs to human health because of the escape of radioactive effluent from uranium tailings into the food chain through air or water.", "3. Costs in suffering and lives in the event of a major in-plant accident.", "4. Costs in suffering and lives resulting from sabotage of a nuclear plant.", "5. Costs in suffering and lives in the event of acts of war or dementia or even acts of God.", "6. Costs of dismantling or perpetually entombing and guarding the 30- or 40-year-old, worn-out and abandoned plants.", "The list could be continued. For example, we could add the cost of providing poison gas shelters near heavy water plants in case of leakage of deadly hydrogen sulphide, as has been done near the Bruce plant at Inverhuron, near Kincardine.", "Task Force Hydro’s report number 3 is, of course, entitled “Nuclear Power in Ontario.” It is a propaganda report of the most blatant type. If it were scientific it would at least acknowledge the existence of the other superior sources of energy -- superior simply because they are non-polluting, non-hazardous and perpetually renewable.", "Is it not incredible that anyone is willing to run all the risks and, in the words of worried atomic scientists, “to jeopardize the human race just to boil water”? There are so many good, clean, safe ways of boiling water to produce electricity.", "What possesses men to devise such a stupidly clever, polluting, dangerous method called nuclear fission? There must be some reason, but the only one of which I have heard is the oft-repeated explanation that it results from the feeling of guilt on the part of the scientific community and/or those scientists who first split the atom.", "Its first use was for war, destroying as it did thousands of Japanese civilians. To appease their consciences, the scientists worked out the theory that splitting the atom, despite its initial misuse, would turn out to be of immeasurable benefit to mankind. In view of man’s well known propensity for justifying his own behaviour, this theory makes considerable sense. It is thought also that man has, in addition to his ability to rationalize, another characteristic, the ability to learn from his mistakes, to admit them, to change his mind and to change his course of action.", "Task Force Hydro has issued three reports, all reflecting the sell, sell, sell philosophy of Canadian Tire Corp. I can find no suggestion in any of them that Ontario Hydro should change its policy of selling electricity in favour of a policy designed to save and conserve it. It was more with amusement than with surprise that I reached the last two pages of report No. 3 and noted that the chairman of the steering committee of Task Force Hydro was none other than the president of Canadian Tire Corp. Ltd. whose philosophy is sell, sell, sell.", "It’s high time that Ontario Hydro got itself some new guidelines, abandoned its blind commitment to nuclear power, cancelled its membership in the nuclear club and returned to the straightforward course of putting the public good first.", "Ontario Hydro began with water power, a non-hazardous, non-polluting, perpetually renewable source of energy. Eventually it ran out of convenient hydro sites and turned to the polluting, unrenewable, but only slightly hazardous, fossil fuel. With the advantage of hindsight to guide us, we can see that it was at this point, when water power seemed to require supplementing, that we should have developed such alternatives as solar power, and especially wind power. Unfortunately, we took the easiest path and used coal, thereby adding to the pollution of the air of many cities.", "We have again reached the stage at which we feel it necessary to find alternative sources of energy. Again we have looked in the wrong direction, turning to nuclear power with all its difficulties and dangers and the unforgivable risks that are being incurred. The question we must ask ourselves is whether the nuclear establishment is setting policy for this Legislature or whether the Legislature is still strong enough to reverse the policy that is being relentlessly promoted by the nuclear interests.", "Just because we can build huge supersonic transports does not mean that we should, and just because we can travel to the moon does not mean that we should. Just because we can build nuclear power plants does not mean that we should. The question of using nuclear power is, of course, partly a technical one but it is primarily a moral one. Are we justified in committing our descendants to almost unthinkable risks when better, safer ways of providing energy are available? It is as simple as that.", "Although President Richard Nixon is a great advocate of nuclear power despite his admitted ignorance of the subject, his former science adviser, Dr. S. David Freeman, now head of the Ford Foundation’s energy project, was reported in Nucleonics Week as telling a meeting in Washington: “Plants aren’t all that safe and what worries me especially is that any corporation can own and operate a reactor. I don’t think there is that much specific competence, technical competence. Someone will make the wrong weld and those plants need near-perfect engineering. We have not had much operating experience and inadequate allowance for human weakness is being made.”", "He recommended an independent nuclear safety board to study and oversee the whole situation: “If consumers don’t get involved in the fight for a sane and fair energy policy, they will end up victims of undesirable power technologies, high bills and a seriously polluted environment.”", "Incidentally, Freeman advocates a $1.5 billion to $2 billion research and development programme so that by 1985 the United States would be developing and operating at least seven new, really clean energy sources.", "The Atomic Energy Commission officials are becoming upset by public resistance to the proliferation of nuclear power plants, and at a December, 1972, hearing the counsel for the AEC became quite impatient and said if public health and safety requirements were to be met, there would be no power. That is, for the plant to operate at a level insuring public health and safety, it couldn’t operate economically. Obviously, economies real or imagined are given priority over safety of the environment and man.", "Dr. Edward Teller, usually known as the father of the atomic bomb and never known as a timid soul, has stated that nuclear plants should never be built above ground. To this the nuclear establishment replies: “If large nuclear plants had to be built underground, the price would be so prohibitive the utilities wouldn’t buy them.” And those are the words of Mr. Reg Hayden, spokesman for Atomic Energy of Canada Ltd.", "Dr. Teller was also quoted in Nuclear Industry in a 1969 article entitled: “Fast Reactors: When Will We Have Them? Maybe Never.” He said: “I do not like the hazard involved.” His special worry is that no one can tell where “a portion of the plutonium will find itself.”", "Whose opinion should weigh more with us -- Edward Teller’s or that of our Minister of Energy?", "Remember, Mr. Speaker, it takes only 11 pounds of plutonium to make a Nagasaki-like atom bomb. About one ton of plutonium 239 is contained in a breeder reactor core. If released and distributed evenly around the earth, there would be no human survivors.", "Yet the proponents “feel sure,” or “are confident,” or “think” that the problems of containment and disposal will be solved at some time in the future. With so many safe, clean and inexhaustible alternatives, the only conclusion one can reach is that some men like to do things the hard way, the dangerous way. If the hazards were to them alone, we might say “go ahead.” But when all mankind has to share the hazard, we must say “stop” with several exclamation marks.", "George Weil, a nuclear consultant and former Atomic Energy Commission chief of the reactor branch, and United States technical director of the First International Conference on Peacetime Nuclear Energy, offers a warning in his 1972 article: “Nuclear Energy -- Promises, Promises.” He says as follows: “Breeders will present far greater radioactive risks than we now face. With growth of nuclear fission we are committing ourselves to nightmarish possibilities.”", "Nobel prize winner Hannes Alfven, whom I mentioned before, states that “any programme to develop fast breeders should be revised.” That’s in the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists, May, 1972.", "John Gofman, the distinguished nuclear researcher and professor of medical physics, calls the AEC’s plans for a plutonium economy “insanity” and “the ultimate hazard”.", "These are harsh words, Mr. Speaker. “Nightmarish”; “insanity;” the “ultimate hazard. But they are the words of men who have deep insight and have had long experience in this field. Is it not folly for politicians such as ourselves to ignore their words and meekly swallow the assurances of the nuclear establishment? Especially when there is absolutely no necessity to run any further risks.", "The various forms of solar energy can supply so much energy that we could have far more on tap than we would ever need, and be able to save our fossil fuels, especially oil, for all the special uses that have been invented by the petrochemical industry, which of course will have to disappear when the oil resources of the earth are used up.", "The choice is clear. Go nuclear at our peril. Go solar with guaranteed safety, guaranteed cleanliness and guaranteed eternal supplies. Buckminster Fuller has said that wind energy is the most promising form of solar energy by 99-to-1, so when I refer to solar energy, I have in mind chiefly wind power.", "Why are our governments ignoring solar energy? Chiefly because of lack of knowledge. Scarcely anyone is yet aware that solar energy could completely solve our energy problems. Very few people yet realize that some day, not too far off, solar energy must be man’s sole source of energy. In the late Fifties there was a world-wide attempt to revive interest in solar heating, solar distillation and wind-generated power. But the rosy pictures then painted of cheap nuclear power left only a small group of hard-core devotees working in the solar energy field.", "Technology and industry plunged into the nuclear field. As a society, we forgot about research and development, both for solar energy and for a cleaner method of using coal. Nuclear power was in. All other forms of energy were out. A quarter of a century of research and development in solar energy processes was literally lost for lack of scientific interest and financial support.", "Prof. William E. Heronemus, professor of civil engineering at the University of Massachusetts, recently described three solar-driven processes that can be implemented quickly if the public demands them. The fuel establishment, of course, is not likely to show any favourable interest. Only a government, prodded by public opinion, is likely to do that.", "First, the photo-thermal method: Briefly, as I, a layman, understand it, heat from the direct rays of the sun is collected in so-called flat plate collectors using air or water as the working fluid. The warmed working fluid is then used to heat buildings and water for domestic purposes. In areas and seasons requiring cooling rather than heating, the warmed working fluid is used to drive absorption-type refrigeration machines.", "This low photo-thermal process could be added on to an existing fossil-fuel heating plant. If required to do no more than 75 per cent of the heating task over the course of a year, it would be competitive economically as well as ecologically superior. This type of a building heating system on a rather large scale has been proposed for the new Massachusetts Audubon Society office in Lincoln, Mass., where it will be watched with considerable interest.", "The second method, the ocean thermal differences process: This is of no immediate interest to us in Ontario. I shall not describe it.", "Third, the wind-power process: Since the beginning of recorded history man has exploited wind power, not only for travelling by sailboats, but also for other jobs the energy from windmills can perform. The efficiency of wind turbines has increased from as little as five per cent to 10 per cent for the Dutch type of windmill to as high as 55 per cent for some modem high-speed propeller-type machines.", "In the last three years an entirely new look has been taken at wind power. Wind power is now considered within a total, self-contained system able to deliver electricity upon demand by virtue of including a storage sub-system. Several very large wind-power electricity systems of this kind have been devised and costed.", "The most ambitious of these proposals is the offshore wind power system which could take over the entire job of providing electricity for the six New England states. Each element of the system was carried through preliminary calculations and is based on technology demonstrated at that size somewhere in the past. The storage sub-system is based on the generation of hydrogen by electrolysis and on the storage of that gas in pressure-balanced tank farms beneath the sea.", "As first presented, the offshore wind power system was a 100 per cent hydrogen gas system to be distributed throughout New England in pipelines. This gas would then be converted at a fuel cell substation in which hydrogen and air are used at the local distribution level to generate electricity. By a later concept, however, capable of delivering 300 billion kilowatt hours per year, the method would be electricity in cables rather than energy in pipeline gas.", "Prof. Heronemus has conceptualized wind power systems for the Lake Ontario region off the shore of Oswego, NY, for New York shoals, for the state of Wisconsin, for the state of Vermont, and for the prairie states. These studies have all shown that competitive electricity on demand in vast amounts could be generated by wind power in regions where winds are moderate to strong.", "Heronemus says, however, that because winds are much stronger several hundred feet above the surface than they are within 100 feet of the ground, we must be prepared to put our wind generators where the wind is best. If we don’t like the sight of them, then we can put them on floats out of sight on the Great Lakes. This would be a much better solution for Goderich than the building of another dangerous “nuke”.", "Heronemus estimates that the United States can harvest at least two trillion kilowatt hours of electricity a year. Wind generator systems could be in action within four years. If Ontario is in a hurry to produce more power to export to the United States, wind turbines could be the quickest and best answer.", "Heronemus recognizes that nuclear fusion may eventually be perfected and that it could replace other heat-generating processes. But he realizes also that there is a limit to the amount of global heating and weather modification the earth or man or the environment can tolerate. He says that that limit may be not much higher than that which we have already reached. He warns: “The often enunciated concept that nuclear fusion will bring unlimited energy to man is a very dangerous and irresponsible concept. Perhaps the major tragedy we could sustain from this current energy crisis would be the long-term disadvantages that would accrue to accelerated non-regulated proliferation of fission power plants. The real questions here are far more deeply seated than those of present comfort, profit and loss, or material well-being. They are questions of radical degradation of national security. [That is another way of saying sabotage and hijacking.] They are questions of basic morality. For example, what is this generation’s obligation to all future generations?”", "Professor Heronemus, probably the best known authority on the conversion of wind energy, will be speaking in May, a few weeks from now, at the University of Sherbrooke in Quebec at a seminar on the subject. At both McGill University and the University of Sherbrooke there are groups of professors keenly interested in wind power conversion. In a personal communication of Feb. 11, Prof. Heronemus refers to Canadian data prepared by T. C. Richards and D. W. Phillips of the Department of Transport, meteorological branch, Toronto, and says:", "“Based on these data and our local method of assessing the utility of a wind field we have concluded that the winds in the Canadian portion of Lake Huron and farther to the east over Georgian Bay would be an excellent field in which to place shallow draught, floating wind plants. That same strong westerly persists and indeed intensifies as one moves eastward over Quebec and Labrador. Wind power over Labrador may be one of your richest natural resources. [That’s speaking to me as a Canadian.] There is also an excellent wind field off-shore of the whole of Nova Scotia, of far greater long-term significance than even the richest of gas and oil deposits in that shelf. [He concluded his letter with these remarks -- ] Canada is blessed with one of the most productive wind power resources in the world. You would be well advised to develop its use and save your petroleum for nothing other than a sustained, intelligently-operated, long-lived, petro-chemical industry.", "“If you were to move that way, maybe some of the less imaginative members of the United States establishment might start moving, too.”", "In closing, Mr. Speaker, I wish to state that, in view of the Minister of Energy’s oft-repeated appeal for citizen input and ideas as well as his advertised need for greater depth and greater breadth of knowledge in areas such as wind power, he should attend this seminar personally, and take with him or send observers who have some expertise in this field.", "Here is an opportunity for Ontario to show leadership in this most socially acceptable of all energy fields. Let us seize this opportunity for the benefit not only of Ontario and Canada but of the rest of the world." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for York Centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. M. Deacon (York Centre)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity to rise in this Throne Speech debate and, of course, very honoured by the fact that you are in the chair at this point. Together with everyone else, I was very shaken by that experience last December. There are few people around this city or in this province who have earned more respect from the members of the Legislature and others than you, and we are delighted to have you in your position.", "I was quite shaken when I read this Throne Speech to see that the government states that although it will employ all practical means at its disposal to alleviate the causes and effects of inflation, “nevertheless it bears repeating that the problem can only be dealt with in a national context with all governments co-operating.”", "Surely there is nothing that has been more inflationary, nothing that has added more to the fires of inflation than the housing costs.", "Surely anyone will agree that the housing costs in Toronto -- the heart, the capital of the Province of Ontario -- have been rising faster than anywhere else in Canada. What has been happening in Toronto, unfortunately, has also been happening even close to Cochrane North, Geraldton, and other towns all over; even in Smooth Rock Falls. I hear about these costs. We have a shortage of building sites which makes it impossible for the ordinary individual to buy a home even in those parts of Ontario where no one can say we have a shortage of land. As a matter of fact, of course, no one can really say we have a shortage of land even in this area.", "Land is the major culprit in the housing- cost rise. I feel there have been 20 years of uninterrupted opportunities for profiteering by speculators which we provided by having the shortage of building sites year after year. Therefore, there was an opportunity for those selling in a sellers’ market to keep on demanding higher prices. That has backed up to agricultural land and, as the member for Wellington-Dufferin (Mr. Root) said, is causing our agricultural land to disappear at an alarming rate.", "It’s not just the problem of the cost of producing food today on the farms, and all the expenses related to it, but it’s the fact there is such a temptation to say: “To heck with it all. I’d rather get out and enjoy the revenues from clipping the bonds rather than get in there and work day after day to produce food. When the land prices around me are escalating, why should I carry on slugging it out day after day?”", "The government has tried to solve the problem by Malvern -- first of all, Malvern. What success did that have? In the 20 years it took to get Malvern from the original purchase of land in that area to where the first houses were built, land prices in this area have risen at a rate at which they have never risen before. We have not solved a bit of it. And yet we have gone ahead with land-banking -- the purchase of thousands of acres of land by this government -- in the Cambridge area, in Pickering, in the Whitby area; all over they are buying vast acreages. Those who are selling, of course, say: “By gosh, we can make money on land. The best thing we can do is buy some other land.” And so all we are doing is fuelling the fires of inflation instead of dealing with the problem. The problem is the shortage of building sites.", "I was interested in the fact that in many counties around the province they have said: “Let us have the right to develop some of our building sites. It would not cause any pollution; it would not cause any strip development; it would not be using any good agricultural land.” In Northumberland county, for example, the planning board there said, “We could give you 2,000 lots and put them on the market tomorrow and not cause any of these undesirable planning results.”", "But, no, because of the policies here at Queen’s Park of restricting development to traditional-type subdivisions, such as the one between Cobourg and Port Hope which is using up hundreds of acres of good agricultural land -- because we are restricted to that type of development, we are just continuing to feed the fires of inflation as we are continuing to destroy hundreds of acres of our best agricultural land a day.", "There are answers to this and the answers primarily involve servicing the land, I was interested to see that in this Throne Speech there is a mention of the fact that the government is going to increase its activities in servicing of land. But then when I read that it’s moving from around $81 million of capital expenditures to $115 of capital expenditures, I say they’ve got to be kidding. Those people running this government have got to be kidding to think that a $30 million increase will solve the problem.", "What is needed is a major programme, a $350 million to $450 million programme for the next year, or two, or three, or whatever is required to beat the shortage, to eliminate the cause of the inflationary fires, to ensure there is an over-supply of building sites available. This is not money that is wasted, because this is an investment in very valuable, revenue-producing construction -- revenue-producing because it is possible for the province to sell the services to the municipalities where the development is going to occur.", "It’s important that we recognize that the way it has got to be done is that it has to be completely different from the traditional system of financing, where each municipality enters into a contract so that the municipality pays back the cost of the construction over a certain period of time. Imagine how much development of power we would have seen in Ontario had we had to have each municipality go to the Ontario Hydro and say, “We would like to have you develop and provide power to us,” and if Ontario Hydro had made them sign a contract on a take-or-pay basis over a 30- or 40- or whatever-the-number-of-years basis to fully repay the cost of that development. It just never would have happened.", "The reason it wouldn’t have happened is because the municipalities could not have stood that debt burden. And the reason the municipalities today are not entering into large contracts to provide the service in the region of York, the region of Durham, and all these other regions, the reason we are not moving ahead is because they can’t get these projects worked out with the government. They can’t afford them.", "But the government of Ontario, were it to undertake a province-wide programme where the cost to each of these municipalities that require services was similar to the cost that Metro Toronto charges its boroughs; no different -- were it to use that standard of rate across the province, we would then not be making a differentiation in cost between easy areas to construct services, such as the southern area where the soil is deep and easy to dig, and the north.", "We wouldn’t be differentiating between, say, London and St. Thomas. London is buying its water at 18 cents a thousand; and of course St. Thomas got a little better deal after a lot of haggling, but they were asked to pay 54 cents when their project was put in.", "This silly, ridiculous policy of having each project stand on its own feet just won’t work. The other thing that is so silly and so wrong is expecting municipalities to enter into a contract that burdens the municipality and restricts its ability to do other projects, because it’s a burden on its borrowing capacity, when that contract does absolutely nothing for the province in enabling it to borrow money from the market at better prices.", "The province is borrowing the money on its own credit, and Ontario Hydro uses the province’s credit; it has nothing to do with the actual revenues that made Hydro -- certainly on the original basis -- the attractive borrowing instrument that it developed’ into. It certainly is possible for the Ontario government to set up a utility concept for water and sewers along the same line, which would then enable the municipalities to really have available to them, without burdening them, the very essential services of water and sewers.", "As for the actual annual subsidy that the taxpayers might have to carry to subsidize these rates I talk about -- the uniform rates across Ontario -- calculations we’ve done, on the basis of estimates of what the market demand might be for 120,000 lots a year, show that this might be as high as $30 million a year in the provincial budget o£ $7 billion. But to be sure that this province-wide utility builds up, that subsidy of $30 million a year could save $500 million a year to the home buyer and the tenant. And that is where we, as a government, can really help the economy.", "We can decrease the inflationary pressures that have caused housing to go out of sight. We can enable municipalities in areas where the land and the soils aren’t as attractive for buildings as they are in southern Ontario, to get the services they need. And we can do it without putting those municipalities in a debt position that is absolutely without any reason, unnecessary and does no good for them -- and certainly does no good for the province.", "I remember well when, as the chairman of the committee of the Markham council I negotiated contract No. 1 with the Ontario Water Resources Commission, what a disappointment it was at that time to Dr. Berry, the first chairman, when he realized that he had to have each of these contracts on a self-supporting, self-liquidating basis, instead of the concept that was originally discussed in 1954 of forming the “Ontario Hydro” of water and sewers.", "If the province really is interested in solving the servicing problem of the regions -- they were supposed to do it themselves, but they can’t -- and other municipalities, it should immediately adopt that programme and not with a little increase of $30 million, as it is proposing in this budget, but maybe $300 million or, $350 million -- that’s much more like it.", "There is another way that the province can help cope with people’s problems, such as those described by the member for Wellington-Dufferin, with regard to servicing in rural areas. That is, in many of these areas a major problem has been how to service a few houses in a cluster in an area where perhaps the land is not good for agricultural purposes. It’s ideal for some houses but how do we provide the services but not have pollution?", "The province decided some years ago that upstream sewage plants weren’t good, even though modern technology has proven that they actually are excellent and, by making use of sprinkling systems there is the potential to recover the phosphates and nitrates and to actually eliminate the need to buy fertilizers.", "We can actually recycle the fertilizers that are in the sewage effluent and greatly increase the productivity of our agricultural lands for com, wheat, and grasses. Golf courses, of which we have 90 around the Toronto area, could be irrigated by this means, but instead of doing anything in these modern ways, the government of Ontario through its controlling authorities has been discouraging or has been giving no leadership in these matters.", "I was shaken to find that, although three years ago there was supposed to be a new experiment in this sprinkling and irrigation in the Alliston area, nothing has happened, nothing has gone forward. I suppose they’ll blame the municipality but the municipality probably got a little frustrated.", "There is a new development in the London area, I was pleased to hear, with regard to septic tanks. In some areas septic tanks just don’t work. The reason they don’t work is because tile beds and certain types of soils just aren’t satisfactory. But if one adopts this system that is being proposed -- and I think it has finally got approval in the London area -- of taking the effluent of septic tanks and treating it, you can then remove it not through big sewers but through pipes that are easy and inexpensive to install. You can treat it in a very, very small building, practically a hut, so 50 or 60 houses can be handled in a very, very small type of installation and very inexpensively.", "It would make it possible for us to permit the development of clusters of houses in very, very attractive, very desirable rural settings, giving people the maximum flexibility instead of forcing them to buy in high-cost traditional-type subdivisions close to the urban areas. They are right against each other, covering over the finest agricultural lands of the province with these developments -- easily serviced but very costly for future purposes. The provincial government should take an aggressive and leading role to solve a problem which is of such a serious nature from one end of Ontario to the other, and not leave it up to the municipalities and developers to find some manner of getting their lands into production.", "There is a major element of interruption in housing development that has been raised on many occasions by housing ministers. The previous minister at one time made a strong statement saying that we are going to have to do something to force municipalities to accept low-cost housing. Now, if the Attorney General had at that time had much experience in local councils he would realize that the problem is not that they don’t want low-cost housing in their municipalities, but they don’t want the problem of the increased burden of taxes on other residents that low-cost housing brings with it. That is because of the dependence of municipalities on property taxes to pay for people services.", "The one way that this can be overcome is by the province providing municipal financial assistance to eliminate the financial drain imposed on existing taxpayers by low assessment housing. Such a programme must assure municipalities that new, small houses will yield as much total revenue on a per capita basis as the established areas of the municipalities. The programme would be of a temporary nature because experience shows that within 10 years of the establishment of low-cost housing, industrial and commercial construction can be developed which will bring previous assessment ratios back into balance. In other words, the per capita income in the established areas will be the same as, or even less than, in the new areas where low cost assessment, low cost housing is allowed to come in.", "It’s a real plus for a municipality and there would be no resistance if the province provided a 10-year programme on every low cost house which would ensure that the total revenue on that house was up to the per capita revenue of other residences in the area.", "Another point is the government should introduce changes to the Assessment Act to provide for market value assessment on all land on which development is permitted. Many people have had the feeling that speculators hold back land and don’t put it on the market -- won’t put it on the market -- and they in themselves add to the inflationary fires. This can easily be discouraged if the Assessment Act is changed so that it’s possible to assess land at full market value for development purposes if approval can be obtained for immediate development by the municipalities.", "Another point is we should reintroduce the system of segregating land from structures with regard to assessment. If we do so, we can introduce a gradually decreasing percentage factor on structures so that there is a reduction in the current penalty we now impose on improvements to property. There are many examples in the Toronto area when buildings are torn down and parking lots established in order to reduce taxes and they can still get a very satisfactory revenue. This is true in other areas when a man makes an improvement to his home and finds his assessment jumps. He says, “Why do I pay more because I have improved my property and taken care of it when my neighbour, who has an identical structure, doesn’t pay attention to it and lets it depreciate?”", "If we had segregation in value for assessment purposes in the assessment roles between the land and the buildings, we could apply a factor of maybe 60 per cent or 50 per cent to the improvement to the structure, and have the taxpayers paying full rates on the land but half rates, in effect, on the structures.", "Another programme I believe the government should introduce is to eliminate the discrimination now imposed on owners in greenbelt areas or in areas where a ministerial order has been imposed, as it has along the parkway or in the airport noise zones. There is a procedure which I think should be adopted, as is recommended by the blueprint commission on the future of New Jersey agriculture. This provides for the segregation of development rights on all lands, and owners are compensated at market value for the development rights they are deprived of. In this manner, the owner will not be penalized because he happens to be on the wrong side of the road. The programme of compensation has been funded in New Jersey by a percentage tax on real estate transfers which means that those who are getting the benefit of the higher market values are, in effect, paying the cost of the assistance or the compensation being paid to those who are not in a position to benefit from it.", "Another thing the government should do is introduce legislation requiring house warranties of a year on all visible defects in a house and five years on other defects. This would eliminate a lot of the problems which homeowners have which add to the inflationary fires.", "Still another matter is a provincial building code, modifications to which can be introduced by municipalities to meet special needs, subject to provincial approval. The government should continue its programme, which hasn’t seemed to have had much effect so far, to streamline municipal and provincial planning procedures in order to minimize delay in development approvals. It is really ridiculous for any group coming up with a sound subdivision proposal or a development proposal to have to wait five or six years; it shouldn’t be more than five or six months. It can be corrected by giving assistance to municipalities to enable them to do a better job; perhaps by giving them $50 toward their planning costs for every approved building site, or some incentive which sees that the work is done and done quickly.", "The last point I want to suggest in this matter of dousing the inflationary fires in housing is that the government move very quickly into the type of programme of renovation of old houses adopted by the city of Toronto in the Niagara St. community. I thought that was one of the best examples I’ve ever seen of what remarkable achievements can be experienced when a community itself is given the money to carry out -- in this case $300,000 to deal with 600 homes that were considered beyond repair.", "At an expenditure of around $400 per home, and by cleaning up the lanes and fixing up the parks, that community looks like a first-rate area. Painted up, fixed up, the community is itself very proud of its achievements because it wasn’t left to individuals.", "It wasn’t some grand scheme imposed from on top where some individuals went in to get a grant to improve their houses. No, the community itself was given the money. It decided how to allocate it. It worked out a co-operation scheme for the residents, and as a result a remarkable amount of work was done for very little money. The community itself has strengthened in its own morale and heart, and for people who don’t have large incomes has become a very attractive part of Toronto in which to live.", "Those, I hope, are some suggestions that are alternatives to this crazy approach of land-banking that this government has adopted over the last several years -- investing the moneys of this province in land and doing nothing to douse the fires of inflation. Real estate is not a beneficial type of investment. The money is far better put into producing housing or producing goods, but certainly not into buying land in the hope that the land prices will continue to rise. There’s been no reason to doubt prices wouldn’t rise because of the policies of this government -- or lack of realistic policies -- for so many years.", "I’ve been wondering just why it is that for year after year, despite the fact we’ve been talking about this different approach, why this government hasn’t taken action. Is it worried about the decline in values of the land it already owns? Surely not. Surely the government isn’t worried about that. Or is it worried about the land investments of the government’s friends and where they’ll get hurt?", "Let’s think of the benefit and the real interests of the people of this province and get to the root of the cause of the major inflation in this province, and that is land speculation. Let’s douse those fires and let’s not fiddle around with these little programmes that are suggested in the Throne Speech, because there’s no real action indicated.", "A second subject I’d like to say something about, Mr. Speaker, is the environment, and particularly with regard to garbage. I’ve been in on several of these environmental board hearings -- Port Hope, Maple, Pickering -- and I’ve listened to the arguments put forward by citizens who say, “We really don’t want Toronto’s garbage.”", "I recall, Mr. Speaker, it was three years ago, I think, when some citizens in the Stouffville area became concerned about the fact that some 50,000 gallons of liquid waste a day were being dumped in an area that was very close to the source of the village of Stouffville’s water supply. The provincial government waste disposal people said: “Well, that won’t cause any problem. You don’t need to worry about those liquid wastes because it’s sealed. The land is clay and it won’t allow any of the liquids to penetrate to the source of the water. You’ll be fine.” It’s also close to the sources of the water for the Holland River.", "But the fact that the liquid wastes kept on disappearing, going somewhere, naturally caused some concern to the citizens. Finally the municipality took action and closed it down, after the government failed to do something.", "I remember the ministry of the day said to me. “It’s going to cause real problems. Those liquid wastes might be dumped down the sewers in Toronto and go out into the lake.” Of course, it’s a question of whether the government is really worried about the pollution threat, or worried about the number of people who are going to be hurt by the pollution threat.", "But they finally acted because the municipality had the right to close down that operation, and when they acted they put up a plant that looks after these liquid wastes. They put up a plant in Oakville and it is operating and it has dealt with the problem. Why can’t the same approach be taken with regard to the disposal of Toronto’s garbage wastes?", "There are plants all over Europe and all over North America which are working to recycle garbage. They’re making use of it in a way that the benefits of the garbage are not lost by being buried; they’re being utilized. And the plants making use of it are doing it in such a way that they’re not polluting the air and they’re not causing noise. They’re doing it in a way that is very, very satisfactory.", "Why are we trying to take trainloads of garbage out to somebody else and dump it in their area? Why are we going to pollute the land for generations to come to have to put up with? We can be developing problems and that they’ll face that will be absolutely unforgivable on their part because we could have done things in a much better way.", "I suggest that this government has to stop considering landfill and must immediately get busy on programmes to deal with garbage recycling. The technology is available. Stop toying with these little programmes which are going on in the Toronto area now. Get into it, because the problem is right on our doorstep and has to be dealt with.", "The next item I want to cover, Mr. Speaker, is that of transportation. I was pleased to see that there was at least a token start on northern Ontario’s highway needs -- improvement of the highway between the Soo and Sudbury. Rut that’s only a minor start on a major northern road problem.", "It’s interesting that for years some 75 per cent of highway traffic between Winnipeg and Toronto has been moving through the States. Even though the route is longer, it takes less time to cover the distance. When one thinks of the economic benefits that come from movement of traffic -- the meals, the accommodation, the servicing -- one realizes that in itself would be a great benefit for northern Ontario.", "When you realize also that of the two major problems that northern Ontario people keep bringing to our attention are those of transportation access and of services, at least we could deal with the first by a major programme for a new northern Ontario highway across the top of Lake Nipigon, through the clay belt, bypassing Timmins and Kapuskasing -- particularly Timmins and major centres such as Timmins -- to be sure that that in itself would be a great benefit for there’s good access between east and west with bypasses around these major centres.", "Its construction, together with more north-south links, would attract really effective, important, year-round economic activity, as well as providing the people who are already living there with good access that they really need; good access for their goods and services that they can export, as well as good access for themselves to other parts of the province.", "I would also urge that the problem with regard to transportation in the Toronto area and other parts of Ontario would be greatly alleviated were the province, along with the western provinces, to press the federal government to take over the railway rights of way. For years we’ve been having problems with the declining rail service in areas such as Huron, the Bruce Peninsula and the Toronto area. Wherever you go around the province, people are complaining about rail service. In northern Ontario there are fewer and fewer trains, and yet the need seems to be increasing all the time.", "The best way to be sure that there will be competition in rail service as in road service is to do with rail what we did with roads, and that is to make the rails common carriers. We make those rail rights of way common carriers so that not just CP or CN have the right to use what are now CP or CN lines. We make it that the government of Canada owns those lines; make it that the government of Canada maintains and improves those lines in the way that the Province of Ontario has the responsibility for maintaining and improving our highways." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. W. Ferrier (Cochrane South)", "text": [ "Is the member advocating the nationalization of the CPR?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "There is a lot of difference between nationalization of the CPR with its trains and nationalization of the CPR with its trains and nationalization of rail lines. I am talking about having the rail lines handled in the same way as our highways. They are available for the use of the CN or they are available for the use of Greyhound or they are available for the use of the Ontario Northland Railway system. The government of Canada maintains the rights of way and charges for their use, but operates them just as it does the airline terminals." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Bullbrook (Sarnia)", "text": [ "Isn’t the member sorry he asked that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)", "text": [ "Give him a handcart." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "You can nationalize the CPR and all you have done is given us another situation where we have a monopoly, this time a government monopoly, supposedly providing service. We wouldn’t be any better off in having Air Canada as our only airline carrier in Canada. I don’t think that is desirable. I would rather have a choice." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)", "text": [ "I think we will nationalize their rolling stock and give them their track." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "I like to see free enterprise operate, but free enterprise doesn’t operate in the railways today. They have a monopoly on the lines that they now have and they don’t allow those lines to be used by others who might want to provide service over these invaluable rights of way. It is time that we got that straightened away." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Continue to provoke him." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. P. D. Lawlor (Lakeshore)", "text": [ "He is moving ahead." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please. The hon. member for York Centre has the floor." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "How would it be if we nationalized the airways too?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "Stick around here for another four, five or maybe 15 years and we will all be together." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "That’s right, still fighting the Tories." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the fourth point I want to bring up is the question that I am sorry the government hasn’t shown in the Throne Speech some realistic approach to deal with increasing confrontation between labour and management. The York county teacher dispute presented a need for a change in our whole basis of labour negotiations and legislation. I think it is important we start to move toward the direction of final offer selection. Even though that was a principle that was suggested by an NDPer, I think we have got to give Val Scott credit for the fact that in this country he was the one who started to talk about final offer selection, though it was already proven just south of the border and other places to be one of the finest approaches one can bring to labour- management negotiations --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "Just because he’s a colleague of ours I’m not going to say anything against him." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "-- an emphasis on reason, and an emphasis on justifying positions instead of presenting extreme positions in the hope that some mediator will draw a middle line between two impossible extreme claims." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "That’s what mediation is." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "I don’t call that mediation. That is just confrontation. I do hope that the government will soon move to improve the whole basis of negotiations and eliminate many of the aggravations that are caused by delays in negotiations, and this can be done by good labour legislation.", "The last point I want to cover, Mr. Speaker, is that of ways to increase occupational opportunities and improve the whole system of social assistance that we have in this province. As long as our basic government policy is one of work or welfare, we will never cope with nor will we ever solve the major social problems of this province. We shall continue to frustrate those who would like to work, but cannot afford to work, and those who need workers and can’t afford them. The one way of doing this, and I think the most feasible way, would be to introduce a guaranteed annual income for every individual. It may vary according to the age, but it would be one that is in universal application, and it should replace our present costly and frustrating maze of assistance programmes.", "It is time we eliminated a system whereby a parent and three children face a tax rate of 75 per cent on their earnings over $4,500. That is what the situation is today with a mother with three children who is trying to improve her situation. She faces a 75 per cent rate of tax when you see that on anything over $4,500 she loses 75 per cent of what she earns in the form of assistance. In other words, 75 per cent of what she earns over and above $4,500 is taken away from her assistance -- so in effect it is a 75 per cent rate of tax. It is no wonder workers are in short supply and welfare rolls are bulging, because we say it is either one or the other.", "Just this afternoon I was talking to a constituent who faces this problem. Really, the only way to solve it is to give up. Stop struggling to work and to cope with the problems -- just let welfare look after it. And this is no way for any society to survive.", "If we do this we can eliminate the need for minimum wages, because minimum wages were required to protect workers against being forced to work in sweat shops in order to provide their food and shelter. If we had a guaranteed annual income we wouldn’t need that.", "But a guaranteed annual income would provide for their basic needs; and then additional earnings can be received without an onerous penalty -- and many satisfying and useful jobs can be created, which cannot economically warrant payment of the minimum wage.", "There are many types of work. Just think of the carvings in this building that we see around us right now. How many people would love to do this fine work, but can’t do it because there is no way it could be paid for -- and yet it is a very, very satisfying form of work.", "There are lots of people, including some of my youngsters, who don’t care about a large income. They want to have enough to get by on, but they also want to be sure of doing something that satisfies them and gives them a feeling of contributing something worthwhile to the society around them. I think it is important that we get away from our present system, which kills initiative and frustrates those who would like to contribute to our society.", "So Mr. Speaker, with those words --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "At what levels would the member guarantee an annual wage?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, with those words -- I didn’t quite get that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Adequate." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "What level would the member for York Centre set?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "You see, these levels are things that would have to change as inflation comes along.", "But I do know that the cost of living in Prince Edward Island is a lot less than the cost of living here. I think perhaps we have got to set the cost at levels which are adequate in those parts of the country and make it possible for people to find a place to live in those parts of the country.", "This area isn’t the be-all and end-all where people are all piled into this part of the country. I think we can provide much more attractive opportunities, much more satisfying ways of life in other than just the Toronto-centred region. I think it is important in providing a guaranteed annual income that we also at the same time ensure that we are providing opportunities for people to do satisfying jobs -- jobs that will augment their incomes and make it possible for them to do other things.", "So, Mr. Speaker, I appreciate this opportunity to present some of these ideas and I hope that the government of this province will start to take some action along these lines, as I’m sure it will result in an improvement in the quality of life in this province." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Before we proceed with the debate I beg to inform the House that, in the name of Her Majesty the Queen, the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor has been pleased to assent to a number of certain bills in his chambers." ] }, { "speaker": "Clerk of the House", "text": [ "The following are the titles of the bills to which His Honour has assented:", "Bill 7, The Developmental Services Act, 1974.", "Bill 8, An Act to amend The Municipal Act." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Riverdale." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I basically want to deal only with one topic, but there are two other matter that I do want to briefly refer to before I enter upon a rather difficult topic for discussion in the Legislature.", "There were two anniversaries in the last while which, in a sense, have gone unmarked; and both of which are significant for those of us in this party and certainly those of us in the Legislature who have any concern for human freedom and human liberty.", "In place of the leader of the New Democratic Party (Mr. Lewis) I was present at Nathan Phillips Square on March 21, about 5:30 in the evening, to join with a small group of some 20-odd people who were commemorating as members of the Canadian Federation of African Citizens in Canada the anniversary of the Sharpville massacre in 1960. And I thought, as I joined that small group on behalf of the leader of the New Democratic Party, that we really have extremely short memories. On March 21, 1960, as a result of the protest by the Pan-African Congress against the pass laws which are still in force in South Africa, South African police opened up on the crowd, and as many of us will recall, 69 people were killed and another 170 or so were wounded in what has become known as the Sharpville massacre.", "I simply mention it because I think, in a House such as this, it does not hurt on occasion for us to recall the kinds of incidents which should have both a double-edged thought that we are indeed fortunate to be free from that kind of violence in our society, and, at the same time, that we should not forget the very humanitarian need to support the peoples in those countries who are endeavouring to free themselves from iniquitous laws in fascist regimes, particularly those countries which are based, in their government philosophy, on the principle of racism.", "I simply want to say to the government that I was very proud that in this Legislature the government did move to eliminate the trade missions to South Africa, even though it was perhaps difficult for those who think only in terms of trade to understand the reasons. I was certainly proud of the fact that it was the leader of this party who raised the question in the Legislature which led to the decision by the government to eliminate South Africa from the trade missions of the Province of Ontario.", "The other event which I wanted to refer to was the March 25 national celebration of the Greek community about the overthrow of the Ottoman regime in 1821, which has become a national liberation day for those persons who belong to, come from, and live in Greece. It was very strange in the Globe and Mail of that day while people celebrate national celebrations in different ways, Zena Cherry’s column was devoted to the vice-consul of Greece in the city of Toronto and the reception which he was holding on behalf of the government to celebrate that national liberation of the Greek community from the Ottoman rule in 1821. Yet at the same time, in the same issue of the Globe and Mail, there was on page 7 a very brief excerpt from an editorial which had appeared just about the same time in in the New York Times, in which it pointed out:", "“A US study mission for the House Foreign Affairs Committee believes Greece is facing its worst crisis since the civil war of 1946-1949.", "“’Indeed, a renewal of large-scale civil conflict is one of the real possibilities in Greece today,’ says the mission’s report, presented by Rep. Donald Fraser of Minnesota after an on-the-scene investigation.", "“This sombre conclusion, fraught with grim implications not only for the longsuffering Greeks but for Greece’s partners in western defence, seems to be supported by every new action of the obviously insecure military junta that overthrew Col. Papadopoulos last November. The brutal arrest of George Mavros, a former government minister and leader of the Centre Union Party, is only the most recent exhibition of the junta’s instability.", "“Military police in civilian clothes smashed in the door of his Athens home with a crowbar at 6 a.m. and hauled Mr. Mavros off to jail after he defended the cancellation by Britain’s Labour government of a visit to Greece by two Royal Navy ships.”", "Well. I don’t need to go on any further, but to make the same point that we here are indeed fortunate to be free from that kind of oppression in our society to the extent that we are and the tradition that we live by, but also to remember that there are many Greek people in Canada at the present time, many of them living in my riding, who are supporters of those organizations which are engaged in endeavouring to restore democracy in Greece. I have a letter from one of the men in my area to say that March 25 is Greek National Day, which commemorates the Greek revolution of 1821, which overthrew the Ottoman regime. “Greeks all over the world celebrate this important date in their history in a number of ways. Today, the situation in Greece is not a cause for celebration; a savage dictatorship still exists, as may be observed from the recent wave of arrests and terrorism.” That is a letter to me from a friend of mine, a supporter of our particular political party but a Canadian of long standing and a man of immense personal prestige in the Greek community, Mr. John Limnidis, the president of the Committee for the Restoration of Democracy in Greece.", "Having said those two things, I want to turn to a matter of concern to me in the time which I have had an opportunity to study it -- and it hasn’t been all that long -- and, as we now say fashionably, I’d like to share a few thoughts with the members of the assembly on the question of family property rights and family property law.", "The report of the Ontario Law Reform Commission, Part IV, dealing with this topic, is a very interesting report. As I read it and tried to understand what the commission was saying and the way in which they were saying it, I found it became more and more confusing. So I took a little bit of time to try to sort out my thinking about the family property law report in the hope that others in the House might have occasion to think about it and give consideration to it and so that it will not become the monopoly of those members of the legal profession who happen to sit in the House when the time comes to debate any recommendations which are set forth as proposed law by the government of the province.", "It was quite interesting, and perhaps it would be helpful to members if I could simply point out that it’s a very lengthy report, even in this mimeographed form; it runs close to 500 pages. The interesting part of it is that the last chapter, which sets out seriatim all of the recommendations set out elsewhere in the report, refers to chapter 4 as the first chapter which has any particular recommendations about it. I don’t think it is necessary for anyone, other than a person interested in all of the detailed intricacies of this kind of property law and suggestions of recommended reform, to read anything more than about the first 35 pages of the report and then about 10 to 15 pages around page 100.", "What concerned me at the very beginning and led to my confusion in what the report was trying to say, is that the foreword of the report had certain statements of the principles which the members of the commission believed were guiding their deliberations. They stated rather succinctly what they believed to be the conclusions they were going to come to about this whole question. If I may refer just very briefly, Mr. Speaker, to what they had to say: “Few other ideas have so fundamentally influenced civil law during the last few decades as the principle of equality between husband and wife.”", "They went on further to say: “More and more, marriage is being recognized as an economic partnership in which both husband and wife have an equal stake. How to give practical effect in law to this conception was the main task of the commission in its work on reform of Ontario’s matrimonial property law.”", "They went on to say: “Other areas of western jurisprudence have also been endeavouring to seek a solution to the problem of protecting the economically weaker spouse by their matrimonial property rules.”", "They referred to the rather generalized statement that, “The aim has been to combine the best features of a system of separation of property -- autonomy of the spouses -- with the spouses -- with best protective features of a community system -- potential for mutual sharing in the assets of the marriage.”", "They then go on to refer again -- and I will advert to it very briefly -- to the new law that came into force in the Province of Quebec on July 1, 1970, and which for practical purposes, with certain distinctions, is what is recommended by the Law Reform Commission of the Province of Ontario.", "But then we came to this statement: “We have not only made proposals for reform of Ontario’s matrimonial property law but have made proposals for a radical departure from existing principles; nothing less will suffice.” Further on in the report it is reiterated that, in its family law project generally and in the present report in particular, the commission has tried to adhere to the constant theme of law as a means of achieving desirable ends.", "It makes the further statement: “In this report the commission recommends legislative changes in the property relations between married persons that will, at times, involve a radical departure from contemporary arrangements. With respect to the particular subject matter of the report, the commission is convinced that sound law reform requires such departures.” Scattered throughout those first 34-odd pages of the report and reiterated elsewhere, as it comes to the point in law where it is going to make its proposals, are words to substantially the same effect; that in some way or other the Law Reform Commission is recommending something called radical change in the matrimonial property relationships between spouses and proposing changes in the law in the Province of Ontario.", "The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, that the changes as proposed by the Law Reform Commission are very minor, are not likely to result in any substantial change in the system and appear to result from a strange kind of conceptual confusion which the rhetoric of the report appears to justify as being a philosophy which should be accepted by the province, bringing about some kind of fundamental changes in the property relations between spouses. I may say, one can make the obvious remark that the Law Reform Commission dealing with the family law project, of course, does not have any women members of the commission. I think it is fair to say, without suggesting for a moment that there is any conscious bias in the commission, some of its references with respect to the married relationship, usually of the female spouse to the male spouse -- there are other situations in which it is reversed -- but in the majority of cases they refer to the relationship of the female spouse in language which is a little less than is really acceptable as understanding today what I conceive to be the prime concern of women who are interested in establishing an economic equality in their marriage relationships.", "For example, the report states that while the women of Ontario are free to choose whether or not to marry and thereby accept the conventional role of non-earning wife and mother, there is a further reference: “However, when it comes to some of the salient legal results of having accepted such a role within the institution of matrimony, the women of this province will find that they have no further real alternatives. When a woman marries she must accept a legal regime respecting property matters within the marital relationship that is fundamentally the same scheme as was conceived in the middle of the Victorian era as an acceptable means for ending the chattel status of married women.”", "The report goes on at some lengths to deal again with the same conception of the role of the woman partner in the marriage relationship in language which would appear to indicate a very deep concern by the Law Reform Commission about the condition, which is not carried out in the proposals which the commission puts forward.", "Let me, if I may Mr. Speaker, deal with a couple of further statements in the report, to give the conception which apparently the Law Reform Commission has about the relationship in the Province of Ontario: “The right to property and money amassed during the marriage, following traditional rules of property law, remains solely with the spouse who originally acquired it.”", "Of course, if I may interpolate, in most cases that means that the title to that property acquired during the marriage remains with the husband -- I emphasize “in most cases.” There are of course other situations where that is not true.", "“Although it cannot be said fairly that the institution of matrimony exists for the economic benefit of one sex to the exclusion or detriment of the other, the usual division of labour within a majority of marriages results in the husband being the breadwinner or primary source of support. This phenomenon is reinforced not only by the obligation imposed by law upon a husband to maintain his wife, but also by the difficulties facing women, who notwithstanding that they are able and willing to work, find themselves facing the very real forms of prejudice and pecuniary disadvantages that exist for women in the modem labour market.", "“The acquisition of a substantial separate estate and financial independence during matrimony are now, legally speaking, theoretical possibilities for any married woman the same as for any married man. However, the attitudes and traditions of a culture which for centuries regarded married women as social and economic satellites of their husbands, still make this in reality and in the great majority of cases a practical impossibility. To date, the Ontario law respecting matrimonial property, unlike the corresponding doctrines of many other legal systems, has not been adjusted to cope properly with the harsh realities of the economic aspects of marriage as they affect married women.", "“... The entitlement to and management of most of the money and property acquired during marriage is vested in the husband ... The interest of the husband is an overriding one -- the proprietary interest that the law attaches to formal title. In the absence of title [and I want to come back to this point] the wife has no standing to advance a claim to existing assets as she would were she a partner or an equal, but rather can only present a suppliant’s request for maintenance.", "“The fact of economic dependency of a wife upon her husband during the currency of a normal marriage is perhaps the surest guarantee that she will have need for support if the parties separate.”", "And it again refers to the English report of the royal commission on marriage and divorce. “Two distinct lines of criticism were reported: First, that ‘the law still regards the wife as her husband’s dependant, that is to say as a person of inferior legal and economic status ...’ and that the wife’s economic dependence on her husband was not only doing her grave injustice, it was also “one of the basic and the most insidious factors contributing to the stresses and strains of married life.”’“", "The second line of criticism had to do with the questions relating to the matrimonial home and household goods and I don’t intend to deal with those recommendations of the commission’s report, because I assume that they will be ones which are accepted.", "I want to deal specifically with the solution which the Law Reform Commission came up with when it said that it was going to treat the relationship of a man and wife in a married state from an economic point of view as a partnership, and the way in which they concluded that this could be accomplished was to make a recommendation -- and I quote from the report: “The commission therefore proposes that under the matrimonial property regime the spouses be separate as to property during the currency of the marriage and be entitled to an appropriate equal sharing in family assets upon the termination of the marriage by death, or divorce, or upon termination of the matrimonial property regime in certain circumstances other than upon death or divorce. Subject to the commission’s subsequent recommendations respecting restrictions on dealing with the matrimonial home and on the making of gifts that are other than reasonable or customary, the property position of the spouses during marriage will be the same as under the present law of Ontario. Each will be free to hold and dispose of his or her own property.” In other words, each will be separate as to property.", "Mr. Speaker, without going into the long history of the position which had developed with the introduction into Ontario of the Married Women’s Property Acts in the last century, what the report is saying that during the currency of the marriage there will be no changes in the rule of the separation of property of the spouses and that the only change will take place on the dissolution of the marriage, by death or through divorce or by application to the court in a certain number of ways which are set out.", "It seems to me that that is where the Law Reform Commission is flawed in its conception of the problem. If the basic problem is the economic dependence during the marriage of the one spouse, usually the wife on the husband, then it doesn’t seem to me that it strengthens marriage as an institution in the province to say that the only solution to the economic relations between the two will take place upon the dissolution of the marriage.", "It’s very interesting that the only aspect of partnership which they talk about, relating it to our conceptions of partnership in the traditional business partnership sense, is on the dissolution of the marriage. Then there’s to be an accounting for the married assets and there’s to be an equalizing claim granted to the spouse who had less of the assets, and that is to be not a claim to title to property, but simply a debt claim. So the spouse who is economically dependent, having come to the dissolution of the marriage finds herself not in entitlement to any assets, but has only a claim for a debt against the economically superior partner, as I’ve said on more than one occasion in the last few minutes, usually the husband.", "You cannot really say, Mr. Speaker, that the Law Reform Commission, speaking as it does about giving vitality to the principle of economic partnership, has done anything about the fundamental question of the economic partnership during the marriage. What they propose at the end of the marriage is to say that property acquired during the marriage, other than property which comes to either of the spouses by inheritance or bequest, and income from property that each of them may have as they enter upon the marriage -- the income of that during the marriage will be part of the family property, leaving aside the special considerations related to the matrimonial home. They propose that there’ll be an accounting, an equalizing claim, to be asserted only in debt -- no transfer of title to property; no formal questions of a clear division of the property on an equal basis at the end of the marriage -- only the debt obligation again, which presumably a wife would have to take to a court to enforce.", "I want to leave the question of the dissolution of marriage and simply say, Mr. Speaker, that you cannot now talk about an economic partnership in the way in which the Law Reform Commission pretends to talk about it, unless one thinks about the conception of the relationships between the spouses during the whole course of the marriage. It would appear to be perfectly clear that the way in which that is accomplished is to insist that the assets of the marriage and the decisions with respect to their use will be by mutual agreement. The disposition, investment or other use of capital assets or the disposition or use of the income, that is, whether income coming into the family partnership will be used to be turned into capital for investment, will be used for a holiday vacation, will be used for some frivolous expenditure or whatever it’s going to be used for have to be done on a mutually agreed basis. Failing a mutually agreed basis, each of the parties could at that particular point in time with respect to the number of dollars that they’re concerned about and unable to reach agreement about say “We’ll each take ours. We’ll each take ours during the course of our marriage and we’ll do with it as each of us sees fit.”", "Marriage, as everyone knows, is a series, I suppose, of mutual reconciliations. That kind of decision, the possibility, the connotation that a man and a wife in a true partnership could discuss and have decision-making authority mutually about the use of the income from the marriage, about the use of the assets of the marriage and about the use of the income from property which had been brought into the marriage, but what was not necessarily part of the matrimonial property, and that aspect of mutuality seem to me to be the very key that the Law Reform Commission should have insisted upon as being an integral part of any change in the law which might take place in the Province of Ontario. It can only be in that way that we can deal with this basic question of economic dependency which, in my judgement and, I think, in the judgement of the philosophy or thesis put forward by the Law Reform Commission, has had a very destructive effect upon the relationships between man and wife under the present regime of married property law in Ontario.", "I want to make the point that the Law Reform Commission is under no illusions that the very nature of the institution of marriage is affected in a fundamental way by the property relations which are established in law. If we’re not going to change the property relationships as they now exist during marriage, it seems to me that the institution of marriage is going to be subject to the same flaws which it is presently subject to, so far as that economically dependent relationship is concerned, rather than the kind of equal partnership which it is fashionable, in the language of the day, to speak of when one speaks of a marriage.", "What I think, Mr. Speaker, and I am endeavouring to put it before the assembly, is that when you read the report and read the first 35 pages of the report and then, perhaps, pages 90 to 125 -- which only take a very few minutes -- do not be taken in by the rhetoric and the language which is used by the Law Reform Commission to justify what it is speaking about. They are not changing titles of property. They are using, in a specious sense, the conception of a partnership but only in terms of what happens on the dissolution of the partnership, and in no sense has any connotation appeared in the report with respect to the conception of a partnership, economically, during the course of the marriage.", "The net result, even on disposition, is nothing but the creation of a debt claim which is certainly not an adequate way to provide for a partitioning of assets at the time when a marriage is terminated. Throughout the whole of the report, it seems to connote that somehow or other the separate property regime, during the currency of an existing marriage, is a good system. It throws out the community of property regime and it throws it out for the very reason which I have endeavoured to express. That is that the community of property regime, which is the community of property regime in the Province of Province of Quebec until July 1, 1970, was subject to the flaw that while both spouses have rights in the community, the husband normally, either in law or in fact, will have the administration and control of it.", "Therefore, what they’re saying is wrong with the community of property regime in its traditional sense is that one of the partners in the so-called partnership has the administration and control of it. Instead of discarding the conception of community of property, instead of trying to correct the community of property conception, to establish that there will be real community of property with respect to decision-making control, in a mutual relationship, over assets and income of marriage -- instead of putting that forward as the solution to the problem, they have opted for this rather hybrid version that the separate property will continue during marriage and that there will be some accounting procedure at the end which will result in the wife having something called an equalizing claim in debt in order to equalize her claim when the marriage is over.", "What it would appear to me that the committee’s report should have recommended is that if there was to be a radical change, they should have pursued the conception of the economic partnership of the marriage relationship fully and completely during the currency of the marriage in order to analogize it to a business partnership with whatever necessary ameliorations had to be made, because such analogies never fit completely, and also to provide in addition, but not as the primary concern, for what happens on the dissolution of the marriage.", "Then they should have set up, in my judgement, that kind of matrimonial property regime we are recommending as the kind of matrimonial regime which we believe the public interest requires -- in the interests of the stability of marriage, in the interests of the improvement of the marriage relationship, in the interests of the equality and mutuality of the relationship.", "Then they should have said that if in any particular case a man and a wife want to go before a judge and opt for separation as to property, or some other contractual relationship, they would go and make their presentation to the judge. In certain circumstances it might be very necessary that there be separation as to property, or that there be some kind of a regime with respect to the property relationships.", "But to have made it possible to have said that this hybrid will be the keystone of our married property law in the Province of Ontario, subject to the parties contracting out on their own at any time, without any reference to a court or anyone else, seems to me to defeat the very purpose that the family law project in this particular area of law was designed to come to grips with.", "I am simply saying, Mr. Speaker, that I would hope that these comments -- and perhaps there will be another occasion to elaborate on them a little bit more -- are to be, as I say, something of a caution and a warning to the other members of the Legislature that it is possible for us in this province to design a married property relationship with respect to family property, family assets, matrimonial home, bearing in mind the true principle of the economic partnership which the report itself says was the object of their exercise.", "Until we look at it that way, then it seems to me that we are not really making any significant or substantial change with respect to those relationships.", "I make the last comment, Mr. Speaker, that I somehow have the feeling that somewhere in the way in which I have endeavoured to express a conceptionally difficult problem is the core of what in fact is causing a great deal of concern among women in the community -- whether they stay at home and perform a traditional role or whether they are part and parcel of the work force -- that somehow or other during the currency of the marriage and conception of an economic partnership is one which is both in the private interests of the parties and reflects the public interest of the province in the stability of marriage and in the enhancement of the particular relationship.", "I would suggest that I would hope that perhaps on another occasion when the Attorney General’s estimates are before the House, we may have an opportunity to pursue this kind of conceptual problem. Thank you, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Does the hon. member have further comments in this debate?", "Hon, Mr. Winkler moves the adjournment of the debate.", "Motion agreed to." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would just like to say that tomorrow we will continue with this debate.", "Hon. Mr. Winkler moves the adjournment of the House.", "Motion agreed to.", "The House adjourned at 6 o’clock, p.m." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. W. G. Davis (Premier)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I recognize that the hon. members here appreciate that uranium is of particular importance to the Province of Ontario. About 80 per cent of the national inventory of proven reserves, which represents almost 20 per cent of the western world supply, is found within the borders of Ontario. This places upon us a particular responsibility in the national context. It is our view that, in effect, we hold these resources in trust for the total country.", "Uranium is of great importance to Ontario at the present time. We should anticipate that its relative importance will increase with the realization of the physical limitations of supply of oil and gas and our vulnerability with respect to price. As a case in point, a 25-cent-per-barrel increase in the price of crude oil is equivalent to an increase of $7.50 a pound for uranium, given that one pound of uranium is roughly equivalent to 30 barrels of oil as an energy source. Electrical generating systems based on nuclear fuel are obviously less sensitive to price increases than those based on fossil fuels.", "As hon. members are aware, Ontario Hydro has recently announced a nuclear programme that calls for an additional 8,000 megawatts of capacity to be in operation by 1984. Added to the 2,000 megawatts at Pickering and the 3,000 at Bruce, this will result in Ontario having an installed nuclear generating capacity of over 13,000 megawatts.", "To put this into perspective, only 10 countries in the world have total electrical generating capacities equal to this current Ontario nuclear commitment. The Canadian Nuclear Association estimates that by the year 2000, nuclear generating capacity in Canada will total 133,600 megawatts, of which 62,800 megawatts will be installed in this province. That compares with the present nuclear operating capacity in Ontario of 2,300 megawatts and 3,000 now under construction. It is projected that the total capacity in Ontario that year will be approximately 100,000 megawatts.", "Quite obviously the projected increase in nuclear generation has important implications to Ontario and, further, introduces particular responsibilities in national terms because of the dominance of Ontario as a supplier of uranium. The presence of uranium within our borders and the expansion of nuclear generating facilities will reduce our provincial dependence on energy sources from beyond our borders.", "At the same time, Ontario’s uranium resources must be so managed that the availability of uranium does not become a constraint on the projected expansion of nuclear generation in the other regions and provinces of Canada, on the exploitation of CANDU and potential sales to foreign markets.", "It is the view of the government of Ontario that present national policy, as it applies to uranium, fails to best serve the national interest and the interests of this province. It is our view that joint federal-provincial planning is necessary to ensure that Canada’s uranium resources and the associated nuclear fuels are developed in the best interests of nation and province.", "Hon. members will recollect that in the energy policy paper prepared by my then parliamentary assistant -- now the Minister of Energy (Mr. McKeough) -- it was noted that the Atomic Energy Control Act of 1946, which vested control of uranium, thorium and plutonium in the Atomic Energy Control Board, was passed at a time when the principal use of uranium was expected to be military, rather than peaceful. Changing circumstances have modified the validity of this Act, and its impact in terms of exploration, development and processing is no longer serving the national interest.", "In our energy policy paper the following statement was made: “Consistency in mineral policy and the necessity of Ontario assuring a secure supply of uranium dictate that Ontario should seek the restoration of the control of uranium and thorium to its jurisdiction. National concerns should be fully satisfied that the government of Canada retains control of plutonium. The international and interprovincial movement of uranium and thorium should continue to be under federal control ... The policies of the federal government with respect to equity control of uranium mines are such that exploration and development is greatly impeded. Modifications of these policies should be sought.", "At the first ministers’ conference on energy in January, the Ontario position was stated: “In order to assure the continuing availability of uranium at reasonable cost to Canadian users, Ontario supports its production and marketing as a national commodity controlled in the national interest.”", "Certainly we have a point of view as to policy changes that would contribute to the accomplishment of these purposes. We are of the view that the orderly and optimum development of the uranium industry would be served if there were increased provincial control over exploration, production and processing.", "We are in no sense unsympathetic to the objective of retaining, to the extent practicable, the control of Canadian resources in the hands of nationals. We are not, however, convinced that equity requirements with respect to the ownership of uranium mines and the granting of exploration permits should be significantly different than those that apply to oil, gas and coal. At present they are significantly different.", "The regulations applied to uranium are sufficiently restrictive as to have inhibited exploration at a time when increasing demand -- national and international -- would suggest that exploration and development should be engaging the attention of an increasing number of exploration companies. Ontario suggested at the first ministers’ conference on energy that incentives should be designed which would tend to increase exploration for uranium.", "A formula should be developed which will establish the long-term requirements for uranium in Canada, and guidelines governing the export of uranium should be so designed that they will assure adequate supplies for Canadian users. The amount of uranium that will be required in Canada -- given our current projections for the construction of nuclear plants -- is substantial. In Europe or Japan and in the United States there is a similar swing to nuclear generation which, it is fair to assume, could well result in a sudden short-supply situation on a world scale.", "The government of Ontario has made a commitment to the transfer of nuclear technology to the private sector to facilitate the use of Canadian technology in domestic and foreign markets. This province would welcome a national commitment to the achievement of this purpose.", "It is the view of Ontario that the federal and provincial governments should jointly seek further means of upgrading any uranium exported from this country. This would contribute to the broadening of the industrial base of the nation and assure that the maximum economic benefit associated with the presence of a scarce and valuable indigenous resource was achieved.", "The clear objective of the government of Ontario is to assure that the very large investment made in nuclear generation facilities by Ontario will be protected and that the plans or intentions of other provinces will not be frustrated through shortages of uranium resulting from inappropriate national policy.", "Shortly -- at 3 o’clock, Mr. Speaker -- the government will table a paper outlining our position on a uranium policy for Canada. We would be pleased to discuss this with other provinces and with the federal government with a view to establishing as quickly as possible a national uranium policy designed to serve the best interests of all Canadians." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)", "text": [ "What the government gave up 30 years ago, it is trying to get back. Unbelievable!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Oral questions.", "The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A question of the Premier following the statement he just made, copies of which are not yet available.", "For clarification, I want to ask the Premier if his statement indicates that the government of Ontario would have no objection, for example, if the controlling equity of Denison Mines were to pass into, let’s say, American hands, as almost happened three years ago." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I think there are degrees, of course. It’s not a question of controlling equity; it’s a question of a degree of equity to enable further exploration to take place. This government, I think, has consistently been in support of greater Canadian control over our commercial and industrial base, to the extent that it is practical. But I think it is also fair to point out that, as it relates to uranium, it has been inhibiting and far more restrictive than in, say, the case of oil, gas or coal.", "What we are seeking is some balance whereby further exploration capital can be found to develop what we think is a very important potential resource for this province." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Belonging to the people!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary: Would the Premier then be seriously proposing to the government of Canada that it should allow the control or ownership of this emerging energy source to go the same way as unfortunately it has allowed the ownership and control of the gas and oil resources of this nation to go?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Well, Mr. Speaker, if the member for Brant is suggesting that it is unfortunate that oil and gas are not under the total control of Canada, I think that is something we might debate on some other occasion." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I consider it unfortunate. Doesn’t the Premier?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "What I am saying in this statement is that we have to find a better balance to encourage development and exploration for uranium." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Bullbrook (Sarnia)", "text": [ "The Premier’s statement really says nothing." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I think it is important that it is done, and that it is done very shortly." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "The Premier says this is a resource being held in trust for Canadians. That’s what he said. That’s part of his statement." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)", "text": [ "Supplementary question: Is the Premier rejecting the proposition that the government may acquire the equity in the public interest?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I recognize that the hon. member would have the public control the equity in everything in this province --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "I would certainly have them control uranium." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "-- we just don’t happen to share that political point of view.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "It is our view that the private sector has a role to play --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. W. Martel (Sudbury)", "text": [ "Why do European countries do as they do?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I think it was obvious from the statement of the Minister of Energy a few weeks ago, whereby we are involving the private sector in the further development of nuclear technology, that we are anxious to see that this is done." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "We are being held to ransom by the private sector." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur)", "text": [ "They’ve sold us out for the last 30 years." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I think it is also important to point out that if there is potential, and we believe there is, in the exploitation of the CANDU system, it is important to have the private sector involved for marketing purposes. And I would say that there is nothing inconsistent --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "For marketing uranium?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "For marketing the CANDU system." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)", "text": [ "But not the ownership of uranium." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Surely not the ownership of uranium." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "And I would say, Mr. Speaker, that we are making it very clear in this statement --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "The government has always said it would provide 80 per cent of it. Don’t be silly!" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "-- that we want a greater degree of input into the decision-making process, that we are anxious to have greater exploration because we think uranium is an important resource and should be available for the total country." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Then move into the field." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "And it belongs to the people." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "We think this is the most intelligent way to proceed with it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Sarnia." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Supplementary: Would the Premier attempt to resolve for me an obvious dichotomy in his statement? As I recall, part of his statement said that the government of Ontario recognized this as a resource held in trust for the people of Canada. How does the Premier resolve that with his lack of response to the Leader of the Opposition, when he could give no assurance he wouldn’t permit control to go outside the borders of Canada?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I guess one can argue about what one means by control. Quite obviously, control is always with the province or, in the case of uranium, control at this moment is with the federal government. What we are talking about is the question of further development of the uranium resource. Yes, control will be assumed by the province or the federal government, we hope on some sort of co-operative basis. What we are seeking, as I say, is additional input into the development of this very important resource.", "The question of the control of the actual company, as to who may be doing it, is something that would be consistent with our total policy, one aspect of which, of course, is the question of Canadian directors forming the majority on any Ontario corporation.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I think, Mr. Speaker, it is very important to point out that this is an important resource. We must have further development and the present policies of the federal government are totally inhibiting. That’s one reason we have not had the kind of exploration that we think is essential." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "What degree of provincial investment does the Premier intend to provide in the development and exploration which he proposes? To what extent is he willing to alienate this energy resource from the private sector beyond that which is now involved?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "With great respect, Mr. Speaker, once again, political philosophies differ. There is a very distinct difference between control in the sense that this province or the federal government would have control over exports and the use of that resource, and the question of who puts in money or capital for its development. I would say that the two are totally consistent if one wants to apply a particular philosophy, and certainly inconsistent, I am sure, in the view of the member for Scarborough West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Who has the ownership?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Who owns it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Downsview." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)", "text": [ "I wonder if the Premier could tell us if this statement is made in light of a particular proposition that has been put to the government? What kind of ownership criteria is he thinking about? Has he got some specific proposal on his platter now which motivates this statement and this whole thing which bothers us so much; can he expand on what the criteria are?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member for Downsview is singling out one particular aspect of the statement. What we are primarily concerned about is --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Yes, he is -- that’s what he is concerned about." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "-- the existing degree of federal control over uranium, its export and its development or exploration. What we are saying is that when that Act was passed, and I’m not quarrelling with it, uranium was looked upon as a strategic resource in a military sense." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Right." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "What we are saying today is that that day has passed. There is still a degree of strategic importance, I am sure, but we are looking at it --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "It is strategic in the national sense, not the provincial sense." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "-- from the standpoint of an energy source." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Within the context of an energy resource --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Just as strategic as the oil in the Middle East." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "-- we are saying that the province should be given more jurisdiction so that we can encourage development of this resource in an intelligent and logical fashion. To me it is relatively simple." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)", "text": [ "Stephen Roman couldn’t have said it better." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Couldn’t the Premier answer a simple question? He has avoided both my questions." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for High Park." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Shulman (High Park)", "text": [ "Does the Premier agree or disagree with his fellow Conservative, Stephen Roman, who believes the control of the largest amount of uranium in this province, Denison Mines, should be sold to American interests?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I think I made my position clear several months ago." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. A. J. Roy (Ottawa East)", "text": [ "His position is never clear." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I happen to believe, to the extent that it is practical, that there should be as great a degree of Canadian ownership of the resource industries as is possible. I think this has to be measured against the international situation, on which the hon. member for High Park is a far greater expert than I am -- I won’t go back to his many appearances on television -- but he did make some observations about multinational companies, if memory serves me correctly, and their important role in international trade." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I can only assure the member for High Park that in the area of control which is essential, and that is the use of this resource for the consumers of Ontario and Canada, this province intends to exercise its jurisdiction. I think that has to be separated from the way the resource itself is developed.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "There have now been seven supplementaries which is a reasonable number. The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "That’s the most important statement we have had in years." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "It is important for what it does not say as well as for what it does say." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "I can hardly wait until 3 o’clock." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I have another question of the Premier. Following the statement made by the Minister of Labour (Mr. Guindon) yesterday with regard to the projected strike by the hospital workers, which is intended to take place, I believe on May 1, in 10 Toronto hospitals; since the result of the commission investigation is not going to be available until May 6 at the earliest, when I believe the last submissions are going to be available, is the Premier in contact with the CUPE locals concerned so that there is not going to be the intrusion of a strike situation -- particularly since the Minister of Health (Mr. Miller) indicated, I believe, in a speech in Muskoka early in March that he thought the ceilings on hospital increases might be broken in this year’s budget in order to accommodate the hospital workers?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I will try to recall that rather lengthy question. If the hon. member for Brant, Mr. Speaker, is asking whether or not we are concerned about the possibility of a strike on May 1, the answer to that is quite obviously yes. If he is asking whether this government will be in touch with those unions which are involved, the answer to that is yes. It is our hope, Mr. Speaker, that any potential strike that has been talked about will not in fact materialize.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A supplementary: Can the Premier indicate when the recommendations of the commission that is looking into this will be available? And does he really believe that those recommendations could be anything other than a recommendation that their pay be increased?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "The Premier is just biding his time." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I think I have said this before but I will repeat it. I will be very surprised if the commission recommendations do not include some increase for hospital workers in this province. I will be very surprised if they do not." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "By way of supplementary, would the Premier not consider it an act of good faith, since the control of this whole matter lies in his own hands and with the Minister of Health, that there be some statement made to the workers involved that there will be at least a minimum increase that might, in fact, keep them at their posts in the hospitals until such time as he is prepared to make a further statement? Surely he could give an indication of good faith similar to what the Premier has just said, that he expects the recommendation to be for an increase, and that if it isn’t, he is going to have to increase it anyway." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I think this has already been stated. It is our hope that when it is further stated to the members of the unions it will be understood then that their thoughts -- and I express it that way -- of a walkout or strike on May 1 will not materialize and will not be necessary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "By way of supplementary, is the Premier saying in this roundabout fashion, that some time before May 1 an undertaking is to be made publicly by government that the hospital workers can expect an increase which may have to go beyond the legislated ceiling, whether by the government’s decision or the commission’s decision?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, we get into this somewhat grey area, as the hon. member suggests, of legislated ceilings. There are ceilings on health expenditures. There have not been ceilings as they relate to the amount that has been awarded to the hospital employees, in many cases by way of arbitration. It is quite consistent with the question that we have been discussing here as it relates to ceilings on school board expenditures. This government has not legislated the amount of increase that can be given to hospital employees or the school teachers, much as those people across the House would like to misinterpret this to the general public." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A supplementary: Is the Premier really trying to argue that the ceilings have not predetermined the outcome of wages for hospital workers? Is he suggesting the ceilings haven’t affected the amount of money which the hospital worker now needs in order to receive parity with similar areas in the work-force?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I think it is obvious that there are many factors that affect it. All I am saying is there is nothing, as the hon. member suggested, by way --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "That is just rot." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "-- of provincial legislation or regulation that says to the hospital boards that the negotiations have to be based on a certain amount." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "That is nonsense.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Well, that is not so." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "By way of supplementary, if the ceiling level is 7.7 per cent or whatever it is -- 7.9 or eight per cent -- and if in order to make up the gap the hospital worker requires 15 to 20 per cent, which most members in the House would concede on the simple face of it, how can that possibly be accommodated within the overall ceilings applied to the hospital, so much of which goes to income?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "With due respect, that is not what the hon. member asked. I would quite agree that if the determination is made that the hospital employees must have more by way of increase than can be accommodated within the ceilings, then we have to take a look at the ceilings. No one has ever argued this. What I am saying is that we have not legislated ceilings, because the hon. member has on other occasions suggested that we have legislated ceilings, in the same way as the people in his party have been saying all around the province that we have legislated increases in teachers’ salaries which, in fact, is what we have not done. We haven’t done it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "That’s the way it works no matter how the government plays games with it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The government has wage controls in the hospital sector. That’s what it has.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, order." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Will the Minister of Transportation and Communications make it clear as to whether or not he intends to bring in legislation regarding the compulsory use of seatbelts, or is he going to follow the recommendations of his parliamentary assistant and drop the whole thing?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. R. Rhodes (Minister of Transportation and Communications)", "text": [ "Well, Mr. Speaker, first of all the parliamentary assistant did not recommend that it be dropped.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Obviously the hon. Leader of the Opposition wasn’t paying attention when the hon. member made his address." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. A. Grossman (Provincial Secretary for Resources Development)", "text": [ "He never does." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. W. Hodgson (York North)", "text": [ "He just hears what he wants to hear." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "As I have already stated to the press, Mr. Speaker, we are working on the proposed legislation and, as I said earlier, it’s not an easy piece of legislation to put together. Eventually it will be brought before this Legislature." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "How does the minister feel about it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)", "text": [ "What about the member for Glengarry (Mr. Villeneuve)?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, first, I have a question of the Premier. Does the Premier recall back in August that he indicated at the provincial conference in Charlottetown when he was asked questions about food prices that some of the food chains were quite “irresponsible”? The Premier said, “I mean this business of having food prices one thing in the morning and then changing them in the afternoon is something that should be discouraged.”", "Given the evidence that last weekend certain food chains in the Metropolitan Toronto area were changing their prices in the course of the day, several labels appearing on one item, has he asked the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations (Mr. Clement) to take action against the supermarkets involved?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, if the hon, member wants me to recall more specifically what was said, I believe, in Charlottetown some time in the first week of August, 1973. I think I can recall rather precisely what I said. I said that if the news media are correct as to food chains which have existing stocks on the shelf, or in supply, raising those prices to meet what was a shortage, or what they felt a legitimate increase, and if that in fact was happening, I felt it was irresponsible. I want to put what I said in, its proper context and, I think, more precisely.", "Mr. Speaker, I have complete confidence in the minister responsible for pursuing matters of this kind and I have every confidence that he will continue to do so." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "I don’t." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Is that what the Premier said? Thank you.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "It is a story under the byline of a chap named Webster. Webster! I am sorry he didn’t put the Premier precisely in context. He just quoted him specifically." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Yes, it is one of those aggravations. What has the Premier done about the clear evidence of the price changing, the markup of articles which has now appeared? Has he instructed his minister or has he discussed with his colleague the possibility of taking action against the supermarkets since the Premier expressed such concern just a few months ago?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, as I said to the hon. member, it is not a question of my directing a minister. Unlike his own feeling for some of his own cabinet colleagues, I happen to have complete confidence in the capacity of the ministers of this government --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. T. P. Reid (Rainy River)", "text": [ "That’s why he just switched all of them." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "-- in reacting to their own areas of responsibility." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I thank the Premier for that but it is a few months premature.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: How can the Premier say that he has complete confidence, when in that speech -- well, statement -- in Charlottetown he put the problem in the hands of his then new Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations, the member for Niagara Falls, who came down to his office the next morning at 6 a.m. with his sleeves rolled up and has done absolutely nothing about it since? Surely the Premier must agree that there is some action that could be taken by his minister other than the bland assurances that nothing can be done." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, we have discussed this issue at some length and the minister, I think, has handled it very ably. I would only say to the Leader of the Opposition and to the member of the New Democratic Party that if their people really wanted to solve this problem, then their respective national leaders in Ottawa should get out of bed together and do something about it.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order. The hon. member for High Park." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "On a point of privilege." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I used the wrong phrase." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "David Lewis has been in bed with only one person in his life and I am here to prove it. Does the Premier understand that?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Does the member mean he is Trudeau’s son?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Is that the point of privilege?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well, he may regret it; but that’s his problem." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Will the Premier ask his minister if he has any influence on Gen. Kitching to stop the Liquor Control Board from double-pricing?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I resent that. That’s not a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Well, Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member for High Park, who has never been shy or reluctant to my knowledge, really has the capacity to ask the minister this question himself very directly if he so chooses.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Yes. I might say the last question certainly is not supplementary to the original. The hon. member for Ottawa East." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "In the Premier’s response to the Leader of the Opposition about national leaders, is he prepared to follow his national leader’s dictum and bring in price and wage controls?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "That is the next step after compulsory arbitration." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I have made it very clear --", "Interjections by hon, members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "-- and I’ve made it very clear to the first minister of Canada, that when the federal government sought some initiatives, some way to come to grips with inflation, this government would co-operate fully.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I would say to the hon. member for Ottawa East, who I know is totally familiar with the federal scene and probably is contemplating -- well, no, I don’t think he is contemplating running federally again; he’s running so fast for the provincial Liberal leadership he trips over himself on occasion --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "-- I would only say to him that when our national leader does become Prime Minister of Canada, we will support him in any initiatives that he takes to solve the problem of inflation in Canada." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Come on, a little desk-thumping." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I am glad the member asked the question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I think there have been a reasonable number of supplementaries on this particular question.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Jack Horner doesn’t think very much of the Premier these days." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "They say the Premier is interfering." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Why doesn’t he take this matter seriously?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the Premier doesn’t take inflation seriously. We’ll go to his colleague who has the authority." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I’ll tell the member who doesn’t take it seriously." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Say, the Premier is getting pretty excited today.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I’m really surprised. The dynasty is getting to the Premier." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Perhaps we might proceed with the question period." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "May I ask the minister --", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "My, the Premier is getting anxious. There’ll be a federal election in time.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Does the hon. member for Scarborough West have a question?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A question of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations: If he were able to do anything about it, or if he wished to do anything about the price gouging of certain supermarket chains, I take it he feels it’s not possible because he has no authority to move under the Consumer Protection Act as it is now drafted?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Take that as notice." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. T. Clement (Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations)", "text": [ "Well first, Mr. Speaker, I would like publicly to thank my leader for the confidence be has expressed in me today.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "That’s the worst sign. That’s the worst sign." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "I can’t hear all the members, but if they’d like to write me individually, I’d be glad to receive their letters.", "Secondly, to the leader of the New Democratic Party, it is my opinion -- and I am so advised and we touched on this yesterday -- that under certain sections of the Consumer Protection Act the practices that he described cannot be prosecuted. A year ago October or November, I instructed that a study into business practices legislation be completed by a then professor at the University of York law school. I have since received that study from that particular individual, and in prior discussions in the House, Mr. Speaker, I have touched on the question of introducing into this Legislature a fair business practices Act. I presume that would be one of the matters touched upon in that Act. Insofar as double ticketing is concerned -- and the matter is of concern to every member in this House -- I am advised that the Hon. Herbert Gray, the federal minister, has already introduced legislation dealing with double ticketing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Is that right?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Insofar as the question directed to my leader a few minutes ago by the member for High Park is concerned, it is a matter of law of this province that liquor must be sold at the same prices at all outlets in this province at the same time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on a supplementary, doesn’t the minister recognize that section 47 of the Consumer Protection Act, supported as it is by the definition section, does give him authority to protect the consumer against the totally illegitimate jumps in the cost of living that some supermarkets use, and that what he’s getting from the law officers of the Crown is simply a delaying tactic -- he’s getting what he’s asking for, in order to avoid that protection? He can read the Act as well as any other member of the House. Its intent is clear." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I thought the member would never ask that today and that’s why I got the report from the law officers of the Crown in writing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "They tell me -- just going through this -- one takes a look at the definition of seller --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Right." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "-- and it says, “someone who sells goods or services to a buyer.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Then they define buyer as “one who enters into -- “" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "That’s like Dominion Stores selling lettuce to a customer." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "“A buyer is a person who purchases goods or services under an executory contract.”", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "An executory contract is defined as one “for services or goods to be provided in the future at a cost in excess of $50.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "The bill needs amending." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "The minister’s legislation is a farce." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Read the bill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Come away! What law officer of the Crown gave the minister that opinion?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well, the law is an ass.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "My colleague from Riverdale says the minister is wrong and therefore he is wrong." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "And I’m supported by my colleague from Lakeshore." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. P. D. Lawlor (Lakeshore)", "text": [ "That is pretty toothless.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I want to ask a question of the Attorney General, but I won’t ask about the Consumer Protection Act --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "No, don’t ask him about that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "-- because I don’t trust the minister’s answer. What is the Attorney General doing about the cautions laid against title by the Indian band involved in the Maple Mountain area in northeastern Ontario?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Yes or no." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. R. Welch (Provincial Secretary for Justice and Attorney General)", "text": [ "I’ve got to take that question -- I m sorry --" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Maybe." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I’d be glad to take that question as notice and provide the answer." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "What is that? Never heard of it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "All right. Well, may I ask of the Minister of Industry and Tourism, can we have an undertaking from him that no announcement will be made about the proposed Maple Mountain project until the question of title is clear in the minds of the residents in the area?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "The minister should tell him he has to consult the Attorney General." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. C. Bennett (Minister of Industry and Tourism)", "text": [ "No, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "By way of a supplementary, when does he expect to make his announcement?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "I beg the member’s pardon?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "When does he intend to make that announcement that is continually delayed?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Tomorrow." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have indicated to the House that as soon as cabinet has dealt with the item we will be reporting to this House." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "In 10 days. That’s tomorrow." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "No further questions? The hon. Minister of Labour has the answer to a question asked previously." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. F. Guindon (Minister of Labour)", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday the hon. member for Scarborough West asked a question about a plant closing at Trailwind Products in Rexdale.", "I am informed the employees were not given the necessary written notice but they were given pay in lieu of notice, which is in accordance with the Employment Standards Act. The employees were also given all back wages and vacation pay.", "This morning, Mr. Speaker, I met with a delegation from the Steelworkers which represents the employees of Trailwind, but not the employees of Indal Products Ltd., Brampton. The collective agreement at Trailwind will not, it appears, carry over to Brampton because the terms of the agreement only extend to Metropolitan Toronto. Following this morning’s meeting I sent a telegram to the chief executive officer of Indal Products Ltd. requesting that a meeting be arranged to discuss the problem of the displaced employees, some 50 or 51 of them. I will report to the House the results of our meeting." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A supplementary, if I may: Is the minister prepared to ask of the company, which is even now hiring through the Canada Manpower office, that it employ the 50 or 51 displaced people from Trailwind, as an obvious way of coping with this sudden and abrupt loss of work?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, this is one of the many questions I would like to ask." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Minister of Energy has the answer to a question asked previously." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. W. D. McKeough (Minister of Energy)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on March 14 the hon. member for Grey-Bruce (Mr. Sargent) asked a question with reference to Ontario Hydro’s hiring policy, and I undertook to get him an answer.", "I can assure the hon. member, and the members of the House, that Hydro has a clearly defined employment policy, which is outlined in its management guide and it is not in any way discriminatory in its nature. Hydro hires its employees in accordance with widely accepted practices, with due regard to its responsibilities to maintain an efficient electric power system in the Province of Ontario.", "As part of these practices, inquiries are made into a person’s background from the standpoint of education, experience, health and security. These inquiries are generally made before a person is hired.", "In the particular case to which the hon. member referred, regrettably the inquiries were not made ahead of time. The member referred to a specific case, at the Bruce nuclear power development, where a certain individual was discharged as a result of a belated security check. This was done in error and Ontario Hydro has readily admitted it; and as the hon. member I believe knows, the man has since been rehired." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Essex South is next." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. D. A. Paterson (Essex South)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a question of the Minister of Health: Is it factual that part of the ministry’s austerity budget requires that emergency vehicles in the province, that is ambulances, get 150,000 miles on them before they are turned in for new vehicles? In this regard, is the minister aware that his official in charge of this programme has offered one of the ambulance squads in my area a 1968 vehicle, that already has 90,000 miles on it, as its front-line vehicle for servicing hospitals some 20 miles away? Will the minister look into this matter?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. F. S. Miller (Minister of Health)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, has the member for High Park changed his place in the House? Because if it is a question, it must be the member for High Park." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Where is the minister’s humour?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. W. Ferrier (Cochrane South)", "text": [ "He is waiting in line." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for High Park is next.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I think it would be unfair to say that vehicle replacement is based upon mileage alone; and I would hate to think that a $2.2 billion budget could be truly called an austerity budget. I think in fact it is one of the most generous health budgets in North America." ] }, { "speaker": "Some hon. members", "text": [ "Hear, hear." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "The doctors like it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "The doctors like it. What about the hospital workers?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "However, I think members would agree that any commercial vehicle should be utilized until its useful term of life has passed." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Oh, there is a good policy statement." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. S. B. Handleman (Minister of Housing)", "text": [ "That is fiscal responsibility." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "Is that off the top of the minister’s head?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Well, it happens that I had quite a few years as a car dealer." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "Spoken like a true used-car dealer." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Would members buy a used vehicle from that man?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "That’s how I got elected. A lot of my used-car customers voted for me." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Just to get the minister out of business." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. Sargent (Grey-Bruce)", "text": [ "We still wouldn’t buy one from him." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "They wanted to get the minister out of the business." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "I think these gentlemen are becoming facetious, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Does it bother the minister?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "No." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "The minister is getting as bad as the Premier. The minister hasn’t got an answer either." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "There are six minutes remaining." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "I certainly would be pleased to look into the question of a vehicle being given to the member’s area at a mileage of 80,000 miles, if in fact it is the only vehicle that particular unit has for service. I will be pleased to give the member an undertaking that I shall do so. The moment I have an answer on it I will be glad to contact him." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Grey-Bruce on a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Why has the ministry posted notices in all the hospitals that the government is now going to a private tender for ambulance services across Ontario?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "That is not supplementary to the original question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "It is on the same line as we are talking about.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Well, I can’t detect that the question is supplementary to the original." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "He doesn’t even know about it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "That is a good supplementary, right on. The minister is embarrassed, isn’t he?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Is this true?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Well, the original question had to do with something other than tendering for ambulance services." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Is this true?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. M. Campbell (St. George)", "text": [ "The ambulance and the use of such equipment." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Well, if the hon. member for St. George says so, I will accept it as a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Does the minister know the answer or doesn’t he know the answer?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would point out that I do not believe the member is correct. I would like him to show me one of those signs to indicate that we have called for public tender." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "I will do that. The minister doesn’t even know about it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Essex-Kent on a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Ruston (Essex-Kent)", "text": [ "Yes, supplementary of this minister: Since his regulations or rules call for 150,000 miles on a vehicle, how is it that the Ontario Provincial Police force demands not more than 90,000 miles on its cars before they must be replaced?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "First of all, the member jumped to a conclusion. I did not say that there was a regulation. In fact there are no regulations governing the number of miles per vehicle under the Ambulance Act -- of that I can assure the members -- since at this point in time no regulations have been proclaimed." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "How about the cabinet limousines? How many miles do they have to have?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Until the licence plates get dirty." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "It is a simple question. If you looked at the number of miles a commercial vehicle in service with any ministry is able to perform before it is withdrawn from service, you would find that in the main it is in excess of 100,000 miles. The real answer is that when the cost of maintenance exceeds the values of the service in the future, then you withdraw a vehicle from service." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for High Park is next." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "A question of the Solicitor General: Can he explain why, when the OPP received a tip from American police that led them to raid the Bay Centre Recreation Club and they succeeded in seizing on Louis Tavano -- whose sins as the head of organized crime were related here in the Legislature on Nov 6, 1970; a man who has received some hundreds of millions of dollars of layoff bets from Ontario -- why, when the Solicitor General had him in his hands, did he let him go without any charge?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. G. A. Kerr (Solicitor General)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, there was no reason to lay a charge against one Louis Tavano, if he is the same person to whom --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "They could always fine a denturist." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "-- the hon. member is referring. They were attending a stag; there were some charges laid under the Liquor Control Act. There were no charges laid under the Code; there was no illegal game in progress when the raid took place." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "He was here to see Casa Loma." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "So there was no reason to hold or seize or charge Tavano." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Supplementary, if I may, Mr. Speaker. Were the officers who held Tavano for those brief moments not aware of the tape of the phone recordings of Tavano’s conversations with one Nicoletti of Niagara Falls? The OPP now hold these. They were sent to the Solicitor General by the New York police and prove that Tavano is the person who has been receiving all the layoff bets from Ontario. Did the OPP who held him not realize that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "And if they did hold him, why did they not lay charges of bookmaking?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, as I said, there were no charges laid against anyone attending that particular stag. There were charges laid --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. C. Germa (Sudbury)", "text": [ "We know that: why not?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "That is wrong." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "-- as far as liquor was concerned, with those people who were operating the stag. Tavano wasn’t in that category. There are no charges pending against Tavano in Canada at the present time; and we are not aware of any charges at the present time in the US against one Tavano." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "The member for Bellwoods (Mr. Yaremko) used to do better." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "On principle." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "May I ask a further supplementary, Mr. Speaker?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Yes, I will permit one more." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Make it quick." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "In view of the evidence the OPP now holds against Tavano, if the Solicitor General gets him again will he lay charges against him?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "They’ll never get him again; no way." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would have to investigate the evidence that the OPP has against Tavano, if it is the same Tavano to which the hon. member is referring. But certainly Tavano is well known to the OPP. If it is the same man, and there are reasons to lay charges, charges would be laid." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. Haggerty (Welland South)", "text": [ "Maybe there are two of them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Attending a stag is reason enough." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Ottawa East." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "To the same minister, the Solicitor General: This involves a Mr. John Rice from Hamilton who was refused by a company to be bonded because of a criminal record. It was subsequently found out by the police that they had made a mistake, after long and painful inquiry. Does the minister not feel that police should make disclosure of criminal records of individuals when they ask; and secondly, that prints and photographs taken subsequent to an indictable offence should be destroyed after the charge is dismissed against the individual?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "I would say yes to both of those questions." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "A supplementary to my question, Mr. Speaker: If an innocent victim is denied a job or suffers financial losses because of refusal of bonding when an error is made, does he not feel that such innocent victims should receive some form of compensation, either from the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board or otherwise?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, there are no provisions at the present time to compensate victims of that kind. There could be an ex gratia compensation payment, I suppose, depending on the circumstances; but it is possible that civil charges could be laid in a case like that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Compassionate compensation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "If I may ask just one supplementary, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The time for oral questions has expired." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Just a quickie." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The time has been exceeded.", "Petitions.", "Presenting reports.", "Mr. Morrow, from the standing procedural affairs committee, presented the committee’s report, which was read as follows and adopted:", "“Your committee has carefully examined the following applications for private Acts and finds the notices, as published in each case, sufficient:", "“City of Belleville;", "“St. Catharines Slovak Club Ltd.;", "“City of Hamilton (Nos. 1 and 2);", "“City of Ottawa; Wellington County Board of Education (Township of Puslinch);", "“Niagara Peninsular Railway Co.;", "“Incorporated Synod of the Diocese of Ontario;", "“Town of Strathroy;", "“Root’s Dairy Ltd.;", "“Town of Ingersoll;", "“City of Niagara Falls;", "“Tara Exploration and Development Company Ltd.;", "“Town of Walkerton;", "“City of Kitchener;", "“City of Orillia;", "“Diamond and Green Construction Co. Ltd.;", "“Victoria Hospital Corp. and the War Memorial Children’s Hospital of Western Ontario;", "“Borough of North York;", "“City of Toronto (No. 1);", "“University of Western Ontario;", "“Dominion Cartage Ltd. and Downtown Storage Co. Ltd.", "“Your committee further recommends that copies of the Canadian Parliamentary Guide be purchased for distribution to the members of the assembly.”", "Hon. Mr. McKeough presented the joint report by the Ministry of Energy and the Ministry of Natural Resources on uranium and associated nuclear fuel." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Motions.", "Hon. Mr. Winkler moves that commencing tomorrow and until further order this House will not sit in the chamber on Wednesdays." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "May I ask the House leader, through you, Mr. Speaker, why we don’t sit on Wednesday? Am I correct in assuming it’s purely to facilitate the cabinet? The fact of the matter is that many of us come from far away and we want to have --" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Tell us about it.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "We have obligations in our own ridings; albeit that we are now financially assisted in returning to our ridings, I think that begs the question. Why don’t we sit on Wednesday? The cabinet surely can do its business on some other day.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Why doesn’t the member come Mondays? Why doesn’t he sit on Mondays?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "If the government wants to pick a day when the House doesn’t sit, why don’t we do away with Friday because it is only for a few hours at best?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Right; that’s right.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "I am not trying -- with all the catcalling and the claptrap, I want sincerely to ask this question, because I find myself here tomorrow. There is some constituency work to be done but also there are obligations back in the Sarnia riding. I don’t like the idea of going back on Wednesday and coming back here on Thursday." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. G. Nixon (Dovercourt)", "text": [ "Two days a week." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "He can cut his law practice down." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "I suggest to the House leader that we move it to Friday and then we can go home.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I know the hon. member knows full well that the committees are now being constituted and as soon as the budget is in there will be all kinds of adequate work for the committees to participate in regardless of what the members do on Friday." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "We can sit in the mornings." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Answer the question.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "I just want to say, sir, and I say this indelicately, that is hogwash." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order. A member may speak only once during motions." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Does the minister recognize that --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order! The hon. member for Wentworth." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "-- only three per cent of bills went to committee anyway?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I want to devote myself to the comments of the hon. member for Sarnia. Rather than moving the day from Wednesday to Friday, could I ask the House leader if he would attempt to make sure that there is sufficient work being done in the committees to justify having a day out of the House. We can have delegations before the committees. We can have work being done on Wednesdays --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "That is the point. They don’t do anything." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "-- so that the members of the Legislature are kept busy, because Wednesday has to be a working day like every other day." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "That’s the way it will be." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "That isn’t the way it used to be." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Shall the motion carry?", "Those in favour of the motion will please say “aye.”", "Those opposed please say “nay.”", "In my opinion, the “ayes” have it.", "I declare the motion carried.", "Motion agreed to." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "May I ask of the House leader, Mr. Speaker, if there are copies of that uranium document available?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "We’ll get it next Wednesday." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "It isn’t 3 o’clock." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "It is my understanding that they were to be distributed. Where they were distributed, I don’t know." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "To the press." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "They are not distributed. They have been given to the media. It would be nice if we could have them." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "They may be in the member’s post office box." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Introduction of bills." ] } ]

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[ { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, as you know, the Canadian Bill of Rights enacted by the Parliament of Canada in 1960 provides for the protection of certain human rights and fundamental freedoms, but its effectiveness is limited by the fact that it operates only within the federal field. The Ontario Bill of Rights is intended for the protection of the same human rights and fundamental freedoms so that those rights and freedoms will have the protection in both provincial and federal fields of legislative jurisdiction. As you know, Mr. Speaker, a number of other provinces have enacted similar legislation and we in this province consider that it is important, especially when we have some of the steamrolling legislation that is presented in this House.", "I might say, Mr. Speaker, in French, je voudrais dire simplement en français, M. l’Orateur, que ce bill est pour la protection des droits fondamentaux humains de tous les individus de la province et présentement il n’y a aucune législation au niveau provincial qui protège les droits des individus contre la législation provinciale.", "Je considère ce genre de législation essentiel ici dans la province. Vous êtes d’accord, je suis certain que vous êtes d’accord avec cela, M. l’Orateur." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I believe that was in order." ] } ]

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[ { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Orders of the day." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for York Centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. M. Deacon (York Centre)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. R. Brunelle (Minister of Community and Social Services)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, if I may, I have some remarks I think would be of interest to all members.", "The purpose of the Developmental Services Act, 1974, is to transfer administrative responsibilities for facilities for mentally retarded persons from the Ministry of Health to the Ministry of Community and Social Services.", "This legislation is the first phase of the implementation of the green paper policy which called for the integration of all programmes for the mentally retarded under the Ministry of Community and Social Services. This bill is the enabling legislation to effect that transfer as of April 1, 1974. The bill is designed to enable the programme currently operated by the Ministry of Health to be transferred essentially as is, thus ensuring continuity of operation.", "As hon. members will recall, a year ago in March, 1973 a green paper was released outlining a new policy focus of the Ontario government with respect to the needs of the retarded. This was entitled, “Community Living for the Mentally Retarded in Ontario: A New Policy Focus.” We have copies of this paper in our ministry. It’s a very interesting brochure, and if some of the hon. members would like to have a copy we would be pleased to make it available. This followed upon recommendations made earlier in the 1971 Williston report.", "We asked for reaction to this statement of policy, and invited suggestions from the people of Ontario as to how this policy might be most suitably implemented with local communities. The response we received has been most favourable, and brought with it many constructive suggestions. Many individuals and groups have written to commend the government for adopting this new policy stance. Since that time, the Ministry of Health and officials with my own Ministry of Community and Social Services have determined a feasible plan and the transfer will be effective this April 1.", "On Jan. 25 last, a special joint meeting of the Ontario Association for the Mentally Retarded and our ministry was held here at Queen’s Park to discuss the various aspects of the transfer and to receive the views of all those concerned. This was an important and valuable interchange of information. Following these discussions, a special meeting of the board of directors of the association was held, and I understand that a summary of our discussions and the recommendations of the board have been circulated to all local associations for the mentally retarded throughout the province.", "The position of the provincial government concerning the concept of community living for the mentally retarded is straightforward. The government has adopted a policy in which the following considerations are implicit:", "First, that the mentally retarded person be given every opportunity to develop to his ultimate potential; in other words, that he be given the greatest possible degree of participation in society. Second, that society must maintain for him the maximum degree of normalcy in all of his experiences to allow him a healthy and happy development as a total person; and, third, that the mentally retarded person has access to the full range of community services.", "Of the several thousand adults and children presently in institutions throughout the province because of mental retardation, we are convinced that many could benefit from living as an integral part of the community. I would like to emphasize that community participation is the cornerstone on which the philosophy of community care for the retarded has been established, and yet we recognize that this may well be the most difficult part of our task ahead.", "There must be a variety of linkages to the services already available in the community. Moreover, there must also be an extension, expansion and diversification of such services in communities not only to meet the needs of those returning to them from institutions, but also of those persons with developmental handicaps now living in the community. It will be apparent to all that such a programme -- community living for the mentally retarded -- will take some time to develop and effect properly. This expansion of activities will require additional funds at a time when many other urgent needs also merit attention.", "One source of funding which we have been exploring is cost-sharing with the federal government. We have developed this bill keeping this in mind. A number of other provinces have followed this approach through the Canada Assistance Plan.", "As members know, the basic purpose of the Canada Assistance Plan is to authorize the making of contributions by the federal government towards the cost of provincial assistance and social services in respect of persons in need.", "Ontario’s family benefits programme meets the Canada Assistance Plan guidelines. Several thousand adults with developmental handicaps presently living in communities are already receiving family benefits allowances. We propose to extend eligibility to all individuals aged 18 and over who are resident in the facilities for the retarded being transferred to the Ministry of Community and Social Services. Such an arrangement would provide to a mentally retarded person the care and other assistance he requires while a resident in an institution, and the allowances under the Act while in his local community. In either case there would be provision for his needs.", "Additionally, for those who can return to community-based living, family benefits allowances would be portable and, therefore, the present waiting period for the allowance following discharge would be avoided. Thus this policy will facilitate mobility for those adults presently institutionalized whose parents wish them to return. It could also relieve parents of some expense and their anxiety over the future security, care and costs in respect of their retarded sons and daughters for under this plan these persons would receive lifelong care and service if required.", "The individual mentally retarded adult is, in a vast majority of cases, a person unable to provide for his needs and as such should readily qualify under the Family Benefits Act. Eligibility would be determined in respect of the mentally retarded adult and not on the basis of his family. Virtually all adult residents of institutions transferring from Health to Community and Social Services are without assets and therefore eligible for family benefits.", "In respect of mentally retarded children the procedures might be slightly different but the benefits for them would be just as great. Here, too, greater mobility and access to facilities appropriate to the individual need could be achieved. For these situations provision is made for a parent to enter into an agreement for the care and training of his child. This agreement could be on such a basis and the care and training could be at such a location as was deemed appropriate to the needs of the child at any given point of time in the child’s development. The amount a parent might be expected to pay would be reduced by taking into account not only his ability to pay but also the burden of any extra costs he bears in respect of such child.", "The government has not yet decided whether to adopt the agreement for service approach and we will not decide until there has been further opportunity to consult fully with parents and other interested persons.", "In conclusion, the most important point is that we assist individuals to develop to the maximum of their potential. This entails expanding people’s abilities as much as possible by training, and then using their capabilities to the maximum extent. In doing so, we want to ensure that they are members of the community and society in general. Community services and facilities must be an integral part of that process.", "We must strive to make living arrangements within the community as normal as possible. The support systems of the Ministry of Community and Social Services should help in the establishment of such care systems in a community setting which is a primary reason for transferring the mental retardation programme to our ministry.", "We recognize, of course, that institutional care is the only appropriate method of providing for the needs of some individuals. Because of this, we will ensure that our facilities will continue to provide a high level of care and service.", "In summary, the Development Services Act, 1974, is essentially enabling legislation:", "To effect the transfer of responsibilities for services to the mentally retarded in Ontario from the Ministry of Health to the Ministry of Community and Social Services;", "To authorize the Ministry of Community and Social Services to operate and administer the programme;", "And to provide the legislative base;", "To expand the programme, to re-orient the programme toward community living for the mentally retarded;", "And to attract federal cost-sharing.", "Mr. Speaker, the introduction of the Developmental Services Act, 1974, is just the beginning. The recent Speech from the Throne referred to some of our programme plans. We look ahead over the next months and years to the development of a full coordinated range of services for the mentally retarded in this province based on the framework we are now establishing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, our party will support this bill in principle. It is achieving what we feel is long overdue, the elimination of confusion between those mentally retarded or mentally handicapped who have been in hospitals and those who could be moved from those hospitals into the community if the community was in a position to provide the facilities.", "We had an interesting situation in York county a couple of years ago. There was a proposal for a major expansion of the Aurora hospital, and it would have been using funds that could be better used for the development of further facilities of a community nature similar to High Point, which has been built and is successfully operating in the town of Markham.", "The closer we can get these people to the community, the more opportunity we have as citizens to understand the contribution they can make. We learn a great deal from them in their own way. It is amazing. As you work with these people you realize they may be handicapped in some ways but they certainly aren’t in others and they have a lot to teach us. The change that has occurred in the last 20 or 25 years in our attitude toward those with handicaps is certainly gratifying. Instead of hiding them away and forgetting them, we seem to be recognizing that they do provide something in the community in a way. Even though it is always looked upon as a tragedy it sometimes actually results in benefits to all of us.", "We have some of the concerns in the bill. We are concerned to know what facilities are being transferred. I think of Orillia, Bruce Springs, Smiths Falls, where I have been at scouting conferences where we have had existing groups of mentally retarded in those institutions. Will they now become institutions operated by this department, to gradually be phased out? Will the community have to fund these 20 per cent, as is most of the funding, I believe, under this department’s programme of assistance to local communities with regard to community type developments? I think that our home at High Point is funded to the extent of 80 per cent -- the balance has to come from the community, the municipality -- whereas 100 per cent of the cost of the Ministry of Health facilities is provided by the province. These are things we want to find out about, and others in our party will have further comments to make on this bill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Sudbury East." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. W. Martel (Sudbury East)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am delighted by the minister’s latest statement. It contains a good deal more than the original statement he had, and I think it left many people who had seen it somewhat in a bit of a dilemma as to what the government intended to do in this particular ministry with respect to funding. I will come back to that in a while.", "I am delighted at the bill, because at last we are not going to look on this as strictly a medical problem, but in fact we are going to look at the mentally retarded as people. The former has been going on for too long.", "I am not going to deal with conditions of the past, because I think those people who work in this field, the doctors and the nurses, did an absolutely fantastic job under rather trying circumstances, such as the overcrowding. One could go on at great length to point out the bleakness of the situation, but then I think when one recalls some of the efforts made by people under terrible hardships to make life at least palatable for the mentally retarded one has to give them a good deal of consideration.", "However, if the government is merely intent on an administrative shift and that is all -- and certainly this statement indicates something more than that, but if it is just a shift from one administration to another, then we are deluding the public and we are, in fact, creating a hope in many municipalities, where for a long time there hasn’t been any, with respect to the mentally retarded. In other words, I am saying I hope that along with the shift from one ministry to another there is going to be a tremendous attack on the problem itself as it has confronted us up to this point. But simply to shift it over from Health to Community and Social Services and do nothing beyond that, we are really going through a formality then.", "The reasoning for this is quite simple. In the past we had a habit of actually incarcerating people. We put them in a holding tank in an institution and we left them there. We looked after their health needs and we looked after their sustenance, but did nothing with respect to training. As the minister knows after our battles last year and the year before during his estimates, I hold a great hope, not only for the mentally retarded but for anyone who comes into this particular jurisdiction, that retraining has to be the answer to resolving many of the problems confronting people.", "I would hope that the efforts made by many private citizens -- and I’ll come back to that in a moment too -- will also be enhanced. I’m talking particularly of something I believe came under this ministry before, the funding of workshops for the mentally retarded which was certainly inadequate, both in the capital costs and any financial assistance to continue to maintain it.", "That is one of the concerns I expressed earlier. If we are going to continue along the line of funding the workshops for the mentally retarded as we have in the past, then in fact, we are just having an administrative transfer. Some of the long green is going to have to be provided if the minister’s statement is going to have credence.", "By that I mean if we are going to retrain we are going to have to have facilities. If we are going to have people become useful, we are going to have to have facilities. I believe that the 25 per cent you now fund for workshops, as I said during the minister’s estimates, is inadequate and if we’re going along that stream then in fact we are pipe-dreaming -- we are not going to do a thing different to what went on in the past.", "In the past of the people who were forced into institutions, either those administered by the Ministry of Health or into private institutions, those who went into strictly government institutions such as Smiths Falls received total financial assistance. I understand there was a meeting the other night in Toronto which a representative of the ministerial staff attended and there was a great concern expressed there as to what the funding would actually be. I see in the minister’s statement today that there is still no real finalization of what is going to go on.", "In the past if you went to an institution it was totally funded. If the placement, let’s say, were made by the Children’s Aid Society, we were talking about $733.95 per month, I believe, for a person in an institution. And if we included food and clothing we were talking about $776.95. Now if we bring them back into society, and hopefully we will, I would hope that the government is willing to spend as much money if necessary to assist that individual as has been the case in the past.", "If it is simply to cut costs for the Ministry of Health by trying to dump them back into the community, then again it is a concern I have that we are not going to do what we are setting out to do. I’m not saying the government has to be wedded to that figure in any way, shape or form, but if it took that much for someone in an institution sponsored by the government, I would hope that equal amounts of money are going to be available within the community itself to assist those in the community who need it.", "As I understand it children placed by parents in private institutions of a sort received 80 per cent funding from the government in the past. But the parents in fact had to meet a commitment of $146.79, if I understand it correctly. Again, Mr. Speaker, there is great concern out there. The people I have spoken to in the last couple of weeks -- those working with social planning councils and a whole variety of people I meet with regularly -- indicate that their concern is, what is going to happen there? Is the government going to continue this funding or are the parents in fact going to lose that type of financial assistance?", "I have grave concern as to what is going to happen, as do the public and the various associations concerned, when the minister’s statement indicates that there is nothing settled yet. If it means that parents will bring young people or, as the minister indicates, those over 18 back into the community without a clear definition of what the financial implications are going to be then we leave a tremendous amount of unrest out there.", "I understand there was unrest in the meeting that was held, I believe, on Wednesday or Thursday of last week, here in Toronto. Certainly the people I spoke to today -- and I have only been in for a few moments since the House opened -- weren’t satisfied with the answers that were given. There were still some grey areas. The minister indicates or hints at that in his statement when he says, “In respect of the mentally retarded children the procedures might be slightly different.”", "I think we should know, Mr. Speaker, what the financial implications are, not only with respect to those placed directly into mental institutions but those placed by Children’s Aid Societies or directly by parents. I think the community has a right to know the specific terms under which we are going to bring them back into the community and the type of funding that parents and the community itself can expect in bringing those young people or those over 18 back into the community. I am a little disturbed by the grey area.", "I would also like to ask the minister if we are entering into a social rehabilitative programme and not just holding tank operation, as has been the case in the past. We are going to have to consider such things as rehabilitation for those who are employable. At the present time in the city of Sudbury we are trying to raise funds for the Jarrett Centre; we are out there begging, borrowing and stealing trying to raise $100,000 so we’ll have a workshop. If necessary we’ll steal to have a workshop for the mentally retarded. I think the government has got to provide more funding than is now the case for the capital funding for the workshops for these people, if it is going to be meaningful. I don’t think we can ask the community simply to hope it can raise the money because if it is all based on hope that it can raise the money, the programme itself is doomed to failure. It’s doomed to failure before it even gets off the ground.", "We will have to have other things -- legal aid. Certainly we are going to have to have more legal aid for those people. I have a prime example of a young person who is deficient who was recently in an automobile accident and who has been accused of driving the automobile but, in fact, was not. We are trying to get that straightened out at the present time. Again, we are going to have to make sure that legal aid is more receptive.", "We are going to need more counselling. The education costs are going to be greater and I don’t know how much discussion has gone on with the Ministry of Education with respect to getting these young people back into the regular school stream. I’ve heard a lot about it in the years I’ve been in the Legislature and yet I haven’t seen a great deal that impresses me about getting young people fitted into the regular school programme.", "In fact, just digressing for a moment, we have probably the finest school programme for the deaf in the Sudbury area now, administered by the board of education, and we can’t get the necessary funding for that particular programme. If we are talking about getting these young people back into a regular school situation or if not into the actual classroom at least into the same school facility, again there has to be funding. I wonder out loud at the present time just how much dialogue there has been between the Ministry of Education and the Ministry of Community and Social Services for the necessary funding? Certainly the regular type of grant structure as we understand it for the normal child isn’t going to work.", "If the minister is going to try to put a retarded child into a regular classroom situation using the type of enrolment figures we have today, he is going to have disaster. In that field I do speak with a little authority, having run a school for some eight years. These are questions the minister is going to have to answer when he rises to answer on second reading.", "We are also going to have to look into income security -- I’ve mentioned that already very briefly -- but again, from the minister’s own statement, the programme seems to be fairly decided for those over 18. I am concerned about those under 18. I am told that for people who have very high incomes of $13,000 to $14,000, if they’ve got three or four other kiddies, it becomes almost an impossibility to carry on family life with the same amounts of money; it takes a good deal more -- I don’t have first hand experience of that -- having a mentally retarded child in the natural home.", "The minister talks about some group housing and could I ask him, for God’s sake, not to do what they did in Sudbury? They built an institution in Sudbury at Algoma San for treating the emotionally disturbed and that’s no closer to the natural environment of the child than this building is. It is an edifice; it houses 10 or 12 kids. It’s totally away from what Vanier has in Europe and what Brown’s camps have in Ontario for the emotionally disturbed. It is too elaborate. It is too lush.", "Emotionally disturbed children in the Sudbury area don’t come from homes that are worth $200,000, but that is what that place is like. It is a way too elaborate, because if you try to work the child back into the regular home situation and the regular home style he is completely divorced from it. It is an institution; it is an edifice to an architect. It is a waste of money -- all these great, grandiose buildings that don’t meet needs. If we were talking about putting people in a setting which is close to their own home situation, then by and large what we should be talking about is small cottage-type homes and not the nonsense that was built at Algoma San two years ago. It was a waste of money.", "I have already mentioned workshops. I hope the minister can indicate today that he is willing to fund the workshops in the various communities, particularly capital costs, to get them established. I mentioned the Jarrett institution. They are trying to raise $100,000. I would suspect that under the present programme the most they could anticipate from the province would be $25,000. I might even be a little high on that, but we are presently using an old school building which is totally inadequate.", "A friend of mine, a principal, went to visit it a couple of weeks ago, and he phoned me. He said: “I couldn’t believe it. I just couldn’t believe we were working with mentally retarded adults, in that type of building. No discredit to the people who are trying to operate it, but that we would put people in there in that type of facility to work is ridiculous.", "The main reason for that of course is that there is inadequate funding to build the adult workshops. We are going to have to put more money in there if we hope to make the programme work of getting these people back into and involved in the community and, if possible, doing some type of work. I mentioned that during the ministry’s estimates.", "Of course, the final point I want to make on what we are going to have to look at is the long-term continuity of care. I can recall a number of years ago asking the Ministry of Health to look into the radar base in Falconbridge and take it over. I understand that Dr. Zarfas has looked the facility over. I don’t want to make the point about the radar base, but I want to make the point of medical services that are going to be available in the community as a backup when we bring these young people or those over 18 back into the community. Medical services are going to have to be available much more readily than is presently the case. I would suggest to the minister that some type of co-ordination has to go on to guarantee that the proper type of medical assistance is available.", "If I could just itemize my other concerns, Mr. Speaker, and put them as questions to the ministry. Is it the ministry’s intention to continue to subsidize present costs at least to 80 per cent as is now the case? Will there be a needs test involved for the parents? The reason that I put that question forward is that I would suspect that if we move to small cottage-type settings for some, although they are back within the community, they might not be living with their parents. In fact, maybe the parents can’t cope with the situation.", "What would be the funding for that type of child? Is it still going to be $147 a month? It is my understanding that we are talking probably about an additional $1 or $2 a day. I don’t know, but I think it must be made abundantly clear today what we’ are talking about. I indicated that I have been talking to a number of people. One of the people I was talking to was a social worker in Toronto and she referred to a family of six where the father was earning $14,000, but the level from which the Ministry of Health, who had this, started to assist that family was so high that they in fact fell outside the financial assistance and it became a real hardship. I think the ministry has to indicate that as a third point.", "Fourthly, is there going to be additional cost to the family if we bring them back into the community? I think that has to be very, very clearly put. The minister has indicated that they are going to use the Canada Assistance Plan and I am delighted by that, because for two years I have been urging the minister, during the estimates, to make a good deal more use of the Canada Assistance Plan. I think this ministry has fallen flat on its face with respect to using the Canada Assistance Plan. Other provinces very quickly got the jump on the federal government and were able to get a good deal more funding than this province has even attempted to get, and the minister knows well of what I speak.", "I could illustrate what Barrett has done to get $209 a month for senior citizens or for the handicapped in BC. He made use of the Canada Assistance Plan. He tells me, however -- and I give this to the minister as warning -- that the federal government has cottoned on to what it had really opened up. It wasn’t itself aware of the costs that it was opening up. In speaking to the Premier of BC, he indicated that the federal government is becoming somewhat more tight-fisted in its handout of money under the Canada Assistance Plan, and I caution the minister because Mr. Barrett tells me that when he tried to get extra money for his income plan the federal government started to back off very quickly.", "I hope when it comes this branch of the ministry will have a little more toughness about it than it did in that section under the Homes for the Aged Act. I am still more than a little bit upset that Pioneer Manor, which was scheduled for a 200-bed addition, was reduced by 100 beds and I understand that there are all kinds of efforts being made now to further reduce it by the extra 100 beds.", "Oh yes, Mr. Minister, I too have my “ins” and I know that at a meeting about three weeks ago last night it was suggested that the additional 100-bed addition scheduled for Pioneer Manor this year could well be put off for at least another year, because there is a building in Sudbury to which the people in Smiths Falls are presently directing the mentally retarded. In fact, in the last two or three weeks the parents have been getting letters from Smiths Falls saying, “We are going to send our young people back to the city of Sudbury, We have a facility for them.” The same facility happens to be the place where we are putting the home for the aged. It sits on a highway -- not 25 ft back from the highway -- Highway 69, and the young mentally retarded are being placed in that building, Mr. Minister, at the present time.", "In fact, a part of that building is going to be for nursing home purposes, a part will be a home for special care and a part will be for residential care. Now, need I tell the House who has an interest in that home? The former member for Nickel Belt has an interest in that building." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur)", "text": [ "Is that Gaston Demers?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "And we are bringing back the mentally retarded and we are putting them in a building where there is no yard, none." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. C. Germa (Sudbury)", "text": [ "No swimming pool, no theatre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Nothing! A pile of rock." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "Are we putting Gaston in the building?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "It is 30 ft away from the main highway, Highway 69 south, and we’re putting them in with senior citizens. We’re putting them in with those who need nursing home care; and we’re going to have the mentally retarded. That is a great arrangement! That ministry should be ashamed of itself as should be the Ministry of Health for allowing that. If we’re ever wedded to that we’ll never get the money out of this government for the type of facility necessary. And the government is into it now.", "As I say, the efforts are being made as a result of a meeting, and I had a friend at the meeting so I know full well what went on three weeks ago. I wrote the minister as a result asking him what in God’s name was going on concerning the further suggestion that we don’t add the 100 beds to Pioneer Manor.", "The first time we got wind that the mentally retarded were coming back to Sudbury was in an open-line show I did from my office here in Toronto on a hook-up to Sudbury a week ago Wednesday. A couple of mothers phoned in and told me they were advised that their children were coming back to the community. I suggested the parents should phone the chief medical officer of health, Dr. Barney Cook, who might know something about it because I certainly didn’t. And Barney Cook didn’t know anything about it.", "The minister wonders why a little earlier I mentioned that we have to make sure there are adequate mental facilities and so on, and adequate medical assistance. There was the chief medical officer of health totally unaware, as were the doctors in Sudbury, that young people were being sent back to Sudbury from Smiths Falls. What kind of nonsense is that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Germa", "text": [ "They’ve got to save Gaston." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Right. Heon -- what’s his name? I have it here somewhere -- Mr. Heon from New Liskeard, I believe, it is; our friend Gaston is there. As I say, I hope the new section of the ministry has a lot more conviction than the group which headed up the nursing home section under Mr. Crawford. I can we’ll recall him on TV saying, “We have to cut back. We’re not going ahead with the 200-bed addition to make sure that the private facility is filled up.”", "Maybe that’s the way Tories think. I don’t. I happen to think we think of the needs of the community. The best senior citizens’ facility in the whole province has to be the one in Sudbury run by Ken MacRae, Pioneer Manor, and when I see that one cut back to make sure that Gaston’s private nursing home is going to be filled up, I shudder -- unless the new group coming in has a lot more intestinal fortitude than was demonstrated in that little charade last spring when the reduction came.", "I hope the minister can guarantee to me that we’re not going to see a further delay in the 100-bed addition to Pioneer Manor. I hope the minister can indicate to me that we’re not going to be tied in to having young mentally retarded in a building which doesn’t have a ward, as I say, and which is right on the highway.", "If we ever get into that -- and I know parents are going to object to what I say today because they simply want their young people back, I sympathize with them that they want them back so they don’t have to travel all the way to Smiths Falls. It’s not a very popular position to take, that I should oppose them going into that facility at the present time because they want their young people back and because it’s too far to go to Smiths Falls. But I know that if we ever get wedded to that those young people will be in that bloody building with no place to go, on a pile of rock, for the next 20 years.", "The question then remains, Mr. Minister, are we serious, are we really serious, about treating these young people as people; not -- as I started out by saying -- as mentally retarded, but as people." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The member for St. George." ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. M. Campbell (St. George)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, when I first reviewed this proposed legislation I felt it was possibly a step forward, that we were moving in a somewhat enlightened fashion to deal in this area.", "And yet, having read the statement by the minister, I am very deeply concerned. It seems to me that once again we have before us a piece of legislation the principles of which could well be endorsed by all of those concerned in the field. However, it is the same sort of thing you see in the philosophy developed in the Ministry of Health; that it is important to remove people from active treatments beds and to see that they have care in the community, only what we get in Toronto in this case, as the minister knows, is not home care or really extended care, but a do-it-yourself medical treatment programme.", "It is because of this that I am deeply worried; because again we see a philosophy proposed that these people who are unfortunately handicapped shall have the fullest opportunity to be in the community, but if it’s left like that then I’m afraid that I cannot support this sort of legislation without something which would have a little more teeth in it.", "I look at some of the things talked about in the bill itself, and in the philosophy of the bill, and I see that we are talking in two terms, one for those over 18 and one for children. And we aren’t quite sure today what we’re going to do about the children. We really haven’t made up our mind. We’re going to think about whether we’re going to move on an agreement for service, a purchase of service approach. We’re going to think about it; but when? And why hasn’t it been thought about before it’s introduced here today? Because without this kind of policy we’re like certain daycare centres, without regulation. We’re like the same picture in the Ministry of Health that I’ve mentioned; full of sound and fury and signifying precisely nothing.", "In the Ministry of Health one of their problems, or their ripoffs -- and I’m not sure which it was -- is in trying to assess a child’s retardation. As you know, they try to break it down into mental, emotional or environmental retardation. I would like to know from this minister whether we’re going to have to deal between two ministries to really come up with a definition of the person with whom we’re dealing. Quite candidly, one of the first things I’d like the minister to do is explain the definition of the area with which we’re dealing because I don’t understand it. I can’t understand the meaning of something that says its “developmental handicap that is associated with limitations in adaptive behaviour.”", "I do hope the minister will explain that, because I can’t really follow what we are talking about; particularly in those terms which may be grey areas between mental, environmental or emotional retardation, and what parents do and what in fact the courts do. Are the courts going to have some kind of assistance in dealing with these children as they may appear in the courts? Because up until now it has been a pretty poor show so far as the Health ministry is concerned.", "What about those children who at present are in care in a residential area, in a facility for children or juveniles attached to our Ontario Hospitals? Where are they going to be while we make up our minds? Is this ministry going to fund that portion of that kind of residential care, or is it still going to come within the Health ministry? There is nothing here to say any thought has been given to that situation.", "When we come to the person who comes out of some such residential facility, we make the nice statement that we want to make the living arrangements as normal as possible within the community. And it has already been touched on that obviously the question in that case is, if someone over 18 is returned to the community, is that person returned to the parents with the usual pious platitudes which are so often mouthed by this particular ministry in other areas. It won’t wash.", "To me, as I see it, what we have here is purely and simply an administrative Act that enables a transfer to be made as of April 1, and nothing else -- and no assurance that there ever will be anything else. There is nothing in this bill itself that indicates any concern for the person about whom this legislation is supposedly drafted. It expresses concern that they be able to function in the community, but there is nothing to indicate to what extent or how services are to be related to these unfortunately handicapped people.", "I have doubts about the placement of such people by this ministry when I realize that in answer to my questions on the estimates, the minister stated unequivocally that the physically handicapped children could go into the homes for the aged unless the local municipalities or private agencies provided the service. It was stated, of course, that so far as the homes for the aged in the area of Metropolitan Toronto were concerned, only one person who was not aged was actually admitted to that home, and that was a man of 55 years. There is no denial of the fact that if there are no other services or facilities available, that is this government’s commitment to those who are physically handicapped.", "I have no sense of any different philosophy here, unless I see something which is marked by some action other than pious statements.", "I would ask the minister to be very careful in outlining, if he will, precisely the phasing, as he sees it, of the implementation of this legislation, so that we may at least have less doubt than we have at the moment as to the real purpose and emphasis of this legislation.", "Thank you, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The member for Parkdale." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. Dukszta (Parkdale)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I was struck by the hon. member for St. George’s remarks that this bill is largely an administrative gesture. I sincerely hope, echoing her sentiment, that it is not an administrative gesture but that it is more a statement of a major policy.", "I found the green paper on which this policy is based fairly exciting. Some part of it, stating as it does the community approach to our treating of what people call the mentally retarded, is both acceptable and very humane.", "Basically, it was an administrative report which has many of its own very good features. The point is how many of them will be implemented? The statements issued by the minister and the Act itself suggest they have at the moment been taken seriously. I suppose I’m saying that I approve of the bill generally with some reservation, which I’ll bring later on, if the intentions which are stated in the bill are going to be implemented as they are stated.", "We’ve had a rather notable lack of implementation of ideas in the Ministry of Health by the previous Minister of Health, who piously mouthed sentiments of a community health approach without ever doing anything about it -- in fact doing the exact opposite. I am almost tempted to bestow another kiss of death on Dr. Zarfas by saying that I approve of many things he did, since I’ve ruined his career before presumably. Anyway he is leaving the Ministry of Health at the moment, so I can’t hound him anymore by saying that I liked many things he did.", "But there are a number of points which we should look into in this bill. The whole community approach towards treating the mentally retarded is excellent in principle. There are many problems which arise, as people who have worked in the field know. One of the major ones is that quite often when we start moving people, who are not being moved back to the family but are being moved out to the other smaller centres, there is a strong reaction in objections from the community; and that is something we have to deal with.", "I do believe, and I state this over and over again, that most of the people, not only those who are now in mental hospitals, but especially the ones who are retarded and in the institutions for the retarded, should be largely helped in the community and helped outside the official framework. In that sense, the whole approach to the mentally retarded as specified in this bill is fine, because the problem of mental retardation is no anatomical problem. It does not really belong in the Ministry of Health but belongs in the field of social services, and almost belongs in the field of education. More obviously, in our present framework it belongs in the Ministry of Community and Social Services, which is the one for which this minister is responsible; the sooner we move it there the better, that is extremely good.", "Whether the objections that the member for St. George has had to the bill are going to come true, we’ll have to see. Like her, I’m putting my present hesitations on paper merely so that the minister remembers that it is not enough merely to move the whole thing administratively; the whole community approach now has to be even more accentuated and augmented than has been the case so far.", "I do say it has been going well, but the minister will have to do more. I think we have to go further than that in respect of large institutions like Orillia. I don’t suppose there is a more unpleasant place, a more horrible place than Orillia as it is now. The sooner it is abolished the better. I think it will be for our own self-worth, if nothing else, apart from the enormous advantages that will accrue to people who are already in Orillia.", "It is not enough to say that the government will do it over a period of years. We should move with all deliberate speed to abolish institutions like that. This means extra money, and the present largesse is quite inadequate as it is. If the minister is applying to the Canada Assistance Plan for money merely to substitute for the money he is spending now, then the bill is nothing. If he is applying to get money from the Canada Assistance Plan and through the various family benefit things to augment and to add to payments for extra problems, then this is worthwhile and to be applauded.", "But really, at the end of this hour of speaking, the minister must commit himself, since he did not really commit himself when I talked to him personally, as to whether there is going to be more money spent on it or not. That has been the theme through many of the objections of the people who have been heard. If it is only the same amount of money, then in spite of the conceptual change, which is fine, it is not really good enough. If the minister is saying that we are going to have extra money, to really move the whole problem of dealing with the mentally retarded in the community from the institutional setting, if he is going to expand this considerably, then he is to be applauded.", "But if it’s only to reduce the Health budget so that it appears less and to reduce his own budget so that he gets more money to shift the burden of responsibility from the provincial government to the federal government, then it’s really just a joke or a game that is being indulged in in this case.", "I can think of a number of programmes that are now run by volunteers but which should be supported by this ministry. The minister has shown a certain reluctance to do this in terms of many socially-oriented programmes, such as the ones started by LIP, so I am loath to believe that he is prepared at the moment to support other community-oriented programmes, whether they deal with the retarded or otherwise.", "I can think immediately of one such programme which is run by volunteers in the First Davenport Church; they have some money but could be of much greater benefit if they had some more money from the ministry to expand the programme. They deal with the kids who are very retarded and usually live at home and who, unless they got the twice-a-week help from the volunteers in this church, would have to stay at home.", "There are difficulties in dealing at home level with people who are grossly retarded. The longer they can stay at home, the better it is for them and, presumably, for the community, except that they do have to have some kind of specialized help.", "The whole community approach to this is somewhat expensive at first. In the long run it always pays. It pays because it is better for the individual and it is better for the community at large. But at first we have to spend some money and provide expertise. Above all, we need to change the approach to accepting that the help at this level does not necessarily need to be all that professional. We need some professionals, of course, but we need the professionals who are taught to deal with this type of problem more than the professionals who have been fashioned in the mental health field so far. That is not to say that the ministry hasn’t been doing it; I think there has been a lot of work done. I am very careful in saying that there has been a lot of work done in that particular department. I cannot really say that about any other single department in the Ministry of Health, but at least in this particular department, I can partially say that.", "I have one other objection I would like to raise, an objection that is of some significance to me and will be of some significance to parents. I would question the whole concept of doing it if the parents of the mentally retarded children have to pay more. Whether it is $1 a day or more, it is still extra money. I am not sure whether that means that we will not have to introduce a means test to find out which parents are able to pay and which are not. That in itself I would have to question. We must remember that until now, for many parents, there have been no costs except travelling cost, which in itself can be quite enormous." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. Gisborn (Hamilton East)", "text": [ "There’s the cost of clothing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Dukszta", "text": [ "No, not if they are in an institution.", "But if parents now have to pay extra money, this will put an enormous burden on the family. Will the minister in his reply assure us that it is not going to be so? If it is going to be so, I think he should specify how much it will cost for individual parents and how many parents will be affected by it, because this is one of the current major fears of many parents and associations.", "One other point relates to this approach toward the community -- and I raise this as a question because I have no idea as to what is going on. So far the whole approach has been community-oriented, community-involving even, and of course in the public sector. By the switchover to this ministry, has there been any consideration -- if so I would find it loathsome -- has there been any consideration that there be more and more private involvement in this area. Has there been an attempt to reprivatize many of the facilities which are now under public control? That is a question more than a comment, because I have very little knowledge of it, except some suspicion.", "If the minister can answer those questions to our satisfaction, obviously we’ll support this bill on the conceptual level and on many other levels." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The member for Simcoe East." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. G. E. Smith (Simcoe East)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would like to rise and make a few comments. First of all, I would like to go on record as supporting the principle of this bill. I would like to make one or two very brief comments concerning the facilities in my area, namely the Ontario Hospital School at Orillia, as well as the rehabilitation centre at Edgar.", "From my personal experience, I am aware of the retraining programmes that are being carried out by the ministry, and previously by the Ministry of Health, through its mental retardation branch. In Orillia, for example, one of the retraining programmes is the operation of Orillia Services, which is really a small industry that manufactures crating and other small wooden products which it sells to local industry. This product isn’t being produced commercially any other place.", "It’s a wonderful training for these young people to attempt to become valuable to this type of industry, and I was pleased to note that in order to remove it from the atmosphere of the hospital at the Orillia grounds, because of the fact that they have outgrown the facility, and to give it a better atmosphere, they have moved it into an industrial building in the city proper. I really feel this is tremendous training for these young people, to try to equip them to go out and earn their livelihood in industry in general. I would hope, Mr. Speaker, that many of these programmes -- this one in particular that I have mentioned and also the one at the rehabilitation centre at Edgar, where their services bureau is providing a useful commercial function to small industry -- will continue. I would hope that the minister will be able to give us some assurance to this effect.", "I also would like to express some concern that the previous ministry did see fit to phase out the farm and garden programme at the Ontario Hospital School. It seems to me that this therapy was good. I realize the farm was a losing proposition, but we cannot entirely assess any therapeutic programme on a commercial basis. The therapy was good. The activity for those children -- who will never perhaps be able to be absorbed in industry or gainful employment -- this experience on the farm was, I think, very valuable.", "If you can have children, or for that matter adults, out of doors on the land it’s good for them. They may never learn to drive a tractor but certainly they can be gainfully employed picking vegetables, doing some weeding and some of the casual labour that could be offered to them.", "I would hope that the minister and the mental health staff would take a long look at perhaps reassessing the value of the farm programme and perhaps re-introducing it.", "Finally, if I may comment, both the hon. member for Ontario (Mr. Dymond) and myself have many constituents who are employed at both of these facilities that I have mentioned, both as professional staff and also as staff members. Many have expressed their concern to me that their jobs may be in jeopardy due to the transfer of the existing programmes from one ministry to the other.", "I’m hoping that the minister can give us some assurance that these jobs will not be in jeopardy, that the good programmes will continue and that he will reassess the farm programme with some thought to its value in rehabilitating some of these people." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Welland South." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. Haggerty (Welland South)", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to add my comments on the bill and support the principle of the bill.", "I can recall not too long ago that the minister was in the Welland South riding at the official opening of the retarded residence on Webber Rd. in the town of Pelham. This is a residence for those of age 18 and over. I’m sure the minister is well aware of the facilities that are available in the Niagara region right at the present time for the retarded associations and their programmes. The former county of Welland, in my opinion, is one of the pioneers in developing programmes to meet the local needs of the less fortunate citizens of this province in providing community-based living accommodations and educational programmes. I can recall some 20 years ago that one of the first retarded schools built in the Niagara Peninsula was built in the township of Burleigh, where at one time I happened to be elected as a deputy reeve. These are the things that I think are great strides in the advancement of the retarded people of the Province of Ontario.", "We perhaps have one of the best ARC industries throughout the Province of Ontario. We have another programme that has been sponsored by local citizens; and community involvement by unions, by social organizations, fraternity clubs and so forth -- Lion’s Club, you name it, they are there -- and there is the Niagara technical training programme in the region. Of course, they are having some difficulties in keeping their programme going.", "Perhaps I should, Mr. Speaker, if the House permits me, read into the records some of their programmes for the retarded people in the area.", "NTEC is a charitable, non-profit corporation and it has been formally operating since March, 1970, as an experimental and demonstration project. Its purpose is to assist young adults in the regional municipality of Niagara -- with a population of approximately 300,000 -- who are considered unemployable for their lack of skills and work disciplines.", "The day-to-day operation of the centre is the responsibility of the committee of management composed of persons representing education, industry, business, unions, government and social and service clubs. This project aims to provide meaningful work experience in an adapted industry setting for those persons who have not or likely will not be able to obtain suitable employment otherwise.", "Employment will be provided on an employer-employee basis on projects resulting from negotiated contracts with local business and industrial firms. Such contracts will not be gained by competing with established private business. Examples of such contracts are salvaging of copper wire from obsolete electric motors. A minimum of three years work is assured on contracts such as janitorial service, general building maintenance and assembly line production.", "The long-term aim is to establish a business for the disadvantaged, which could eventually be operated by them and be self-supporting. The short-term aim is to provide the workers with the independence and self-work discipline to find employment in the open market. Special emphasis should be on those who are within the first year of learning following school. The overall age bracket is from 16 to 25 years.", "The emphasis is on subjecting the employee to work or experience where he is assessed, supervised and directed to acquire sufficient skill and develop attitudes and discipline necessary to make him a desirable employee. It demonstrates to management, and particularly personnel societies, that the individual is a competent and desirable potential employee.", "I might add, Mr. Speaker, that many have been trained to work in the vineyards of the Niagara Peninsula; to go out and prune the grapes. I think it is very important that these persons can be gainfully employed.", "I think they have a good programme but, of course, there is one problem with it -- money. Where does the money come from to support these different projects for the retarded? I am a little bit concerned when I find that the minister says the transfer of this programme will be on April 1, 1974. Transfer to what? Perhaps the hon. member for St. George is right -- it is for administrative purposes only. What accommodations are available now in local municipalities?", "Is there going to be a rush, perhaps, to say to the regional municipality of Niagara: “Look, you have to go out and find land. You have to go out and find accommodation for these persons that we are moving from the mental institutions in the Province of Ontario.”", "And, again, at what cost to the local taxpayer? This has been raised by other members, and I am a little bit concerned about this. It was mentioned about the cost-sharing programme of the Canada Assistance Plan. I hope that this isn’t going to leave this 20 per cent to be picked up by local municipalities, because I don’t think they can afford this anymore.", "The minister is well aware that when he attended the official opening of the Webber Rd. home the people involved in that institution had been pounding at the minister’s door over a period of three years to get approval for such a worthwhile project. I can recall former staff members of the ministry saying: “You have to go back to the regional municipalities and get their approval.” Well, the red tape to get approval takes about three years, and there is another two years for construction -- there is about a five-year period involved. Again, the member for St. George is probably right.", "The 20 to 80 per cent; I would like the minister to clarify this. Is this going to be a 100 per cent deal? Is the province going to assume all the costs -- the total costs of this programme -- or is it going to be borne by the local municipalities again? Also, consideration should be given, when it comes to the educational theme of this programme, to whether the grant is going to be the same for the type of NTEC programme as it is, say, in the high school or the public school? Is it going to be $600 a year or is it going to be $200 or $40 a month? My concern is that the grant should be of the same structure.", "The other question I would like to ask the minister is when we come to the public trustee I think there should be changes in that particular section of the Act so that a person doesn’t have to go through red tape to see that these persons are being looked after.", "Again, I suppose, if there is a retraining programme by which these youngsters can go out and be gainfully employed, it comes under the regulations of the Disability Act; what is it now -- $147 a month? These persons cannot earn any income, I understand, beyond that. There should be some provisions under the Act so that those persons can still maintain part of that disability pension along with their income.", "Again, this is where I say I think the Public Trustee Act should be checked into or looked into to see that there are some changes made and that there isn’t the red tape involved in it as there is now for those persons. Many of them, I suppose, will go out and work on farms, and some of them do that today; but there is a clause, in the Public Trustee Act I guess it is, that if there is any money being paid -- and there is money being paid -- it must go into trusteeship. Sometimes this can hold up proceedings of further employment for the person involved.", "I would ask the minister if his legal staff would look into this to see that there isn’t the red tape involved in this. With those few comments, Mr. Speaker, I will support the principle of the bill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The member for Scarborough West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I simply want to reinforce a couple of comments made by colleagues in the New Democratic caucus and to raise some questions, perhaps not quite so sympathetically or amicably as they have been raised with the minister so far this afternoon by some.", "It makes good social sense and it’s hard to resist the principle that the transfer of retardation from health to social and community services can be construed as beneficial, and if that is really the principle inherent in the bill no one can resist it; it would be folly.", "On the other hand, we are not prepared to accept whole the material in the minister’s introductory statement about acting on the provisions of the green paper and doing things which are obviously so beneficial to mankind. The fact of the matter is that the government has dragged its feet in the area of mental retardation in a fashion which is barely human, considering the circumstances which have prevailed in so many of the hospital schools for so many years. To try to pat itself on the back with this belated transfer is neither honourable nor worthy.", "It’s rather interesting that the point at which the transfer comes is not as a logical extension of social philosophy involved in treatment of retardation. The point at which the transfer comes is the most cynical point in time that is possible -- that’s when the government can get some money for doing it. When it gets some money for doing it, it finally considers retardation something that can be dealt with in the community rather than in the constrained institutional framework where it has locked retarded people for so many years and during so many exposes.", "I can remember in this House, 10 years ago, when I was critic of the field of health and welfare for the New Democratic Party, dealing with the member for Ontario who was then the Minister of Health about the conditions that were obtaining in the Ontario Hospital School at Smiths Falls. I can remember speaking to Dr. Franks, that magnificent superintendent of Smiths Falls, about what had to be done for the mentally retarded and hearing his eloquent, absolutely magnificent plea that Smiths Falls be dismembered, that it be divided into small cottage units, that a more human and civilized approach be taken to the retarded in Ontario.", "Ten years later the government publishes a green paper, uttering all the nonsensical homilies about community care for the retarded that everybody has understood and subscribed to for a decade. Then, the minister brings in this bill and fails to say what is really at the heart of it.", "The only reason this government has decided to move into the field of community care for the retarded is that it’s now financially beneficial for its treasury board. It’s as cynical and as blunt as that. Until we can wrest a commitment from the government on the floor of this House this afternoon, which I very much doubt, that every single penny it gains on the Canada Assistance Plan will be reinvested in extended facilities for the retarded, then make no false claims for this piece of legislation.", "As it now stands, the ministry has some 5,010 adults, representing 60 per cent of those who may be covered by this legislation, in the adult-retarded group in the various institutions. It has 3,084 children who are non-wards and may, therefore, be eligible under the Canada Assistance Plan. Although the minister failed to mention it in his opening statement, interestingly enough his ministry will receive from the Canada Assistance Plan something in the area of $25 million to $35 million when this transfer takes place from Health to Community and Social Services.", "Is the minister prepared to stand in his place and say that every single penny of that money presently invested by the province will be reinvested in the other plans? Can we have from him the details of what he intends to do with the money? Can he indicate to us now how he intends to use the additional dollars?", "Can he tell us with respect to the $600,000, which will probably be the amount of payment required from individual parents and families under the means test provision of the Canada Assistance Plan, can he tell us whether he will devise a formula in order to relieve them of that $600,000 burden? Or is that a sudden cost, to be assumed, courtesy of the Ontario government, by parents and families who have not up until now been paying for care of the retarded, but who will be required to pay under the means test provision of the Canada Assistance Plan?", "In this friendly little scheme, in this happy environment of the move from Health to Community and Social Services, there are a number of questions which require answering. If, in good faith, this government is going to accept $25 million to $35 million from the federal government -- the federal government which it so willingly abuses but which is giving this money now, I believe, to three or four provinces, to Alberta, Saskatchewan and New Brunswick, under the Canada Assistance Plan -- if this government is going to now accept this, how is it going to use the equivalent $25 million to $35 million provincially?", "Is the government going to restructure Smiths Falls and Orillia? Is it going to fund entirely the adult workshops? Is it going to provide some of the money for the educable retarded that is not now available? Is it going to subsidize the money which will be required to be paid by parents and families?", "How is it that the minister’s statement spoke in such lovely generalities without getting to the heart of what is involved, that is the willingness of this government to commit itself to the expansion of programmes for the retarded about which people have argued for a decade? Now, all of us are relatively charitable. The ministry is going to move the retarded from institutions into the community. Who dares say no? All of us have felt the need for years. All of us viewed the green paper with a kind of bemusement that such a revelation should have occurred to the Social Development ministry, when it has occurred to other jurisdictions and other professionals in the field for as long as we can remember." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. T. P. Reid (Rainy River)", "text": [ "And the government has been told by the people." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "But the quality of the minister’s commitment will consist of what he can say at the end of second reading about the programmes he intends to undertake, and the dollar value assigned to them when he gets the money from the Canada Assistance Plan. It’s easy for the minister to stand and say it is our intention to reinvest the Canada Assistance Plan money. If I counted up the intentions of the Tory government around health and welfare, there wouldn’t be a provincial debt. But I want to hear from the minister, my colleagues want to hear from him, the opposition generally wants to hear from him how he is going to reinvest that $25 million to $35 million which he now has, courtesy of the Canada Assistance Plan; and which is the real reason for the shift from Health to Community and Social Services, because he’s not entitled to that money under the Ministry of Health. Isn’t it interesting that the minister suddenly embraces enlightenment toward the retarded at precisely the moment when the dollars become available?", "That doesn’t make one very warm, or very secure, about the nature of the programmes which he intends. If he puts them in the hands of David McCoy and Dr. Ron Farmer and Dr. Don Zarfas then he will put them in the hands of people who are absolutely and totally committed to the field and to everything that can be achieved. But if the minister is not prepared to redistribute wealth, new-found wealth, then this bill contains a social principle which may or may not prove valid, and we’ll have to test it several years hence.", "So let’s hear the declaration of commitment from the minister, which wasn’t contained in his opening statement. Let’s hear what he intends, in specific terms, for the use of the $25 million to $35 million which he will receive as soon as he puts it into effect. Let’s hear how he is going to overcome the means test provision for those people who have paid out so much in their lives for the care of the retarded now, or who should not now begin to pay.", "Let’s hear it in specific terms, and enough of the well-wishing and the benign, the sort of benevolent optimism which is contained in the introductory statement; because really, patience runs out in this field more than most." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The member for Prince Edward-Lennox." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. A. Taylor (Prince Edward-Lennox)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I’d like to commend the Minister of Community and Social Services on this bill. I think it’s just tremendous.", "I read his remarks and I listened to the remarks made by the minister, and when I did I related those to the complex known as Prince Edward Heights in my riding, and I can say that we are proud to have, in my riding, a complex such as that, in which are housed the mentally retarded. It’s an asset to the entire community.", "When I read the philosophy implicit in the minister’s remarks, I can see how that was actually being played out in our community. This isn’t just a hollow promise, I can assure you that, Mr. Speaker, because it’s not a question of the mechanical transfer, as the member for St. George said with sceptical cynicism. It’s not a question of new-found gold, or moving in a new direction because of some financial benefit that we expect may come our way from Ottawa. That’s not it at all, for the very simple reason that we are doing those very things in Prince Edward Heights now.", "The residents of that complex are integrating with the community. They have their own workshops. They operate a carwash. They operate a snack bar in the armoury mall. They’re out into the community and making positive and constructive contributions to our entire community.", "As a matter of fact, one of the problems which is mentioned in the statement by the minister as probably being one of the difficult ones to overcome, namely the acceptance of the integration of these persons in our community, has actually been achieved in our particular community. We are warm toward these people because they are making a positive and constructive contribution to our community and we do not have any feeling of ill will. We are, again, proud to see that the fact which we are experiencing is now being recognized in legislation and that the transfer is being made from Health to Community and Social Services.", "Again, I wish to commend the minister on this legislation and the work that he is doing in this field." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The member for Rainy River." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My remarks will be few. I, too, rise to support the principle of this bill, but with a certain amount of scepticism as other members have expressed.", "It seems strange that the government, in its wisdom, would finally, after all the years and all the advice that it has received from the various people dealing with the retarded, see the light and move in the direction of putting the mentally retarded back into the communities where they can function as normally as is possible.", "However, I am a little concerned after rereading the minister’s statement, particularly about the first paragraph. The minister has a reputation for being one of the most vague and obtuse people when you try to pin him down on something; but in the first paragraph the minister says: “The purpose of the Developmental Services Act, 1974, is to transfer administrative responsibilities for facilities for mentally retarded persons from the Ministry of Health to the Ministry of Community and Social Services.” Obviously that is the principle of the bill. What I am afraid of is that the mentally retarded will not in fact be treated the way they should be and that they in fact will not be put back in the community as quickly as possible.", "We have heard other speakers say that this has been recommended over the years. We finally had the government move -- we have had Mr. Williston bring in his report, and then the green paper, and now finally this. But as others have said, there is no guarantee; there is no commitment on the part of the minister as to what is actually going to take place.", "If I can recall, Mr. Speaker, the words the minister used in his opening remarks were that this was enabling legislation. In other words, this meant that the government could go ahead with these programmes and these plans and these policies, but there was no “should” in that matter. There was no requirement, in fact, that the government proceed in the way it suggests that it is going to proceed. All through it the statement of the minister is shot through with “in the future,” and “when it becomes feasible,” and “in a couple of years.” On page 5, and I quote, Mr. Speaker: “It will be apparent to all that such a programme -- community living for the mentally retarded -- will take some time to develop and effect properly. This expansion of activities will require additional funds at a time when many other urgent needs also merit attention.” Well again, that leaves me with the uncomfortable feeling that all that is going to happen with this legislation is that in fact it is going to be enabling -- that some time in the unspecified future, in the fullness of time, perhaps we will get to the objective of having the retarded lead a normal community life in the community in which they were born and mostly raised.", "So we are sceptical, and we too want to know what is the price tag on this? What is happening to the funds that have been committed under the Ministry of Health? Have those funds been, as a block, switched to the minister’s budget, earmarked for the specific purpose of assisting the mentally retarded? What is going to happen with the Canada Assistance? What programmes? What policies?", "And finally, really I suppose what it always comes down to, how many dollars are going to be committed and what are the time frames for this policy to be enacted?", "Because surely, Mr. Speaker, those people, those families, those people most intimately concerned with this problem, have been waiting a long time, an unconscionably long time, for the government to become aware of its responsibility in this regard. Mr. Speaker, while I commend the government for finally moving and espousing this policy that others, particularly in the two opposition parties, have been pressing on the government for some time, I hope that the minister gives us the commitment, gives us those time frames, tells us what dollars are involved, so that those people who, as I say, have been carrying the burden for years can know and can be content and comfortable in the knowledge that there are specific time limits, specific moneys available and that they know how they can integrate with this programme." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. D. Kennedy (Peel South)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would like to comment briefly on the bill before us and to also commend the minister on bringing this forward. It is, I suppose, as dramatic a change in this field of endeavour as has occurred since the government first became involved in the schools for the retarded and started to share that burden with the local associations." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "It’s not dramatic from our viewpoint." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Kennedy", "text": [ "Well it is. It is a very, very significant item; very much so." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "It is significant but it is certainly not new. It isn’t something dramatic, it isn’t something new." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Kennedy", "text": [ "Well, it depends on your interpretation of dramatic, Mr. Speaker.", "But I know there is a very active association in Peel and as a matter of fact there is a meeting of it tonight. I know there will be a great deal of interest in knowing this bill has now come forward and is being debated on second reading.", "I would like to ask the minister what the ministry sees as the potential here. That is, of each 100 persons who are now confined how many might appear to be eligible for such a programme? Would it be 50 per cent, or a quarter, or is it something that will increase over the years as additional therapy is developed?", "I would like to ask as well, Mr. Speaker, if I might -- Ortona Barracks has been prepared now, and I believe it is now taking people who were at Orillia and presumably other locations. Does this change the direction or the capacity that might be needed there? I mention the matter as to how many might become involved in the community based living and I’m sure well await with interest the programme as the details are developed.", "I do know, Mr. Speaker, there is great potential here, because we have the ARC Industries -- there are several of these throughout the province and it is demonstrated through these endeavours that there is a role for those people in our society who are, perhaps, less fortunate than many.", "So, Mr. Speaker, I will conclude with those few comments, and a couple of questions. Again, I am just so pleased that this action has been taken by the ministry and we’ll watch it develop. My commendations to the minister." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The member for Windsor-Walkerville." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman (Windsor-Walkerville)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a few comments on Bill 7, the Developmental Services Act, 1974, and say that it is pretty difficult for one not to agree with the principle of the bill, especially after sitting in this House for a few years and having espoused such an approach on the part of government -- requesting, suggesting, year after year and seeing no action from government.", "All of a sudden they come out riding white chargers. They have found something completely new, something revolutionary, something outstanding, something dramatic. It took them in my estimation 15 years to reach this dramatic stage. They are following up in their approach to mental retardation in the same way that they have followed up in the approach to resolving the housing problem. They are still living back 15 and 20 years ago.", "Mr. Speaker, the idea of centring the treatment and the services to the mentally retarded on the community is a good principle. No one can come along and criticize that. Criticizing that would be almost like being against motherhood but, Mr. Speaker, we certainly have to give an awful lot of credit to the various volunteer organizations and service clubs which have fought for the needs of the retarded over many years in the past.", "I recall in my own community the Kinsmen’s service club which has played an extremely active role in what the previous member mentioned, ARC Industries, the Association for Retarded Children. They have done such an outstanding job in assisting the retarded that within the next month or so they are actually going to have a mortgage-burning ceremony, having paid off the mortgage. They have shown that the mentally retarded can become a valuable asset to the community in spite of some of the handicaps they have.", "The thing that does disturb me a bit, Mr. Speaker, is why, all of a sudden, this area of social need is being transferred from the Ministry of Health to the Ministry of Community and Social Services. I think the leader of the New Democratic Party probably brought out one substantial point of view and that is that all of a sudden the ministry has found there are funds available through the federal government and now it is going to take advantage of it.", "We have heard so often that Ontario is the leader. The leader of what? It is going to be the fourth province in Canada to take advantage of federal funding. As far as retardation is concerned, as far as taking advantage of funds available from federal sources is concerned, this government certainly isn’t a leader; it certainly isn’t a follower; it really is the sheep in the field. It is far behind other provinces which are not as affluent and, we think, which are not as forward-looking as we are in Ontario. But when it comes to mental retardation, we certainly can’t say that Ontario was forward-looking.", "I can recall sitting in this Legislature and listening to the Minister of Health of the day, the member for Ontario when he was extolling the virtues of building Cedar Springs Hospital. Here we have this big complex to warehouse -- if I am not mistaken that was even one of the terms used in those days -- to warehouse these unfortunates; 1,000 people in an institution. We tried to point out to him that that was not the humane way to approach mental illness -- I shouldn’t say mental illness -- but a misfortune, something could have been resolved had the ministry of the day looked forward and followed the recommendations not only of opposition members but all those who were knowledgeable in the field of mental retardation. How hard it was to convince the government opposite to act when it came to the case and the needs of the mentally retarded.", "Even with the present legislation, Mr. Speaker, you will notice that it is still a discriminatory type of legislation. There is age discrimination here. We are going to restore to the community first those over 18. The minister can correct me if I am wrong but this is what I understand -- that those over 18 are the ones we are going to be concerned with first. I would hope that wouldn’t be the case because if it is good enough for those over 18, it certainly should be good and possibly better for the younger ones because the sooner we can tackle the problem of mental retardation, the sooner we’ll find answers for it and the sooner will come the betterment of the individual.", "One of the comments made by the member for St. George was concerning the present division of responsibilities between the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Community and Social Services and I wonder how that is going to be resolved by the ministry. Is one class of individual going to be the responsibility of the Ministry of Health and the other now the responsibility of the Ministry of Community and Social Services?", "Mr. Speaker, now there has been a new look at the retarded I would say that we hope this legislation may lead to a brighter hope, not only for those in Cedar Springs, but a brighter hope for all who have suffered so long and so hard with this problem. I refer not only to the retardate but also to the many dedicated volunteers and the parents who had this affliction to contend with when they had a mentally retarded youngster.", "If it took the ministry about 15 or so years to act on recommendations of members opposite and of those who were knowledgeable in the field of retardation, I wonder how long it is going to take now for him to implement the programme as recommended and as outlined in Bill 7. We hope it doesn’t take another 15 years.", "What the ministry is really setting up now is going to be sort of a halfway house approach. I can recall this being a recommendation for those in Correctional Services. The minister is going to have an area, or he may set up an area, between the present institution and the family home, in some instances. In other instances, the individual may go directly into the family home.", "I would like to ask the minister how this is going to affect the educational system in a community, with budgetary ceilings adversely affecting the quality of education. I am wondering if the ministry is going to subsidize or pay allotments to educational boards in a community for the retardates who are going to be attending local institutions. I am wondering if there is going to be a higher per-pupil grant as a result, because to be effective in educating or training the retardates, the minister is going to have to have a very low pupil-teacher ratio, and the lower the pupil-teacher ratio, the more expensive the education becomes.", "So we are not going to be able to accommodate the individual who has this problem in the elementary level on the normal allotment of funds if it is some $675 or $700, and in the secondary level if it is $1,100 or $1,200. It is going to have to be substantially higher to assist and enable boards to provide top-quality education to those who really need the services of our educational institutions.", "I likewise wonder, now that the retardates are going back into the community, whether the local taxpayer is going to be required to pay for 20 per cent of the services provided.", "If the individual on welfare is being assisted by the community, the community finds that 20 per cent of the cost burden is shouldered by the local taxpayer, while 30 per cent is funded by the provincial authorities and 50 per cent by the federal authorities. Even the 20 per cent additional burden is a little too much for all of the communities. The demands for various types of services by the citizenry are so great that this additional burden of 20 per cent could be beyond the municipalities’ financial capabilities.", "I likewise wonder if the ministry has any intention of using the students at community colleges who are taking programmes dealing with the retarded. Is it the intention of using graduate students from our community colleges to assist in the programme?", "The programme is going to be extremely expensive -- certainly a little more expensive than we anticipate at present -- because had we gone into the building of these smaller group homes 10 or 15 years ago, we could have put up these facilities at a substantially lower cost than we can today. I understand the grant from the ministry is about $5,000, and the minister well knows that we certainly couldn’t put up a facility in a community to house 12 or 15 for less than $100,000. It is extremely costly.", "Perhaps the minister has the intention of putting up slightly larger group homes, but we hope he doesn’t build little Cedar Springs accommodations in communities. We want them to be with their families or in foster homes, where they can get a sort of one-to-one relationship and obtain the maximum assistance from close association with their fellow man or woman, boy or girl, as the case may be.", "Mr. Speaker, one of the needs that I am afraid may be bypassed is the communication between the community and the hospital. I am afraid that some of the individuals may be sent into the community without the community even knowing that they are in that community. I happen to have been contacted in the past week by one individual who was placed in the community. He has been in the community for approximately two months, but his disability or family benefits did not follow him. He had to go on to welfare to be accommodated. There obviously was a breakdown in this case. I am not saying that this is generally the case, but it did happen to this individual. I had to intercede with this department on his behalf to resolve the issue, and I am sure that the issue will be resolved. It shouldn’t be that much of a problem.", "But we have to inform the community if these people are going to be removed from one of the hospitals and put into the community. Likewise, we are going to have to work very closely with Canada Manpower. A lot of the individuals are going to need special programmes, and we are perhaps going to depend on Canada Manpower to develop some of the programmes, especially in areas that may not have an association for the mentally retarded.", "I am quite concerned that individuals may be released into a community where there is no association that can sort of assist, follow up and be of maximum help to the person who is released into the community. Likewise there is the need for a citizens’ advocacy programme. I understand it is in operation in some areas but I think the minister is going to have to expand that operation. I know in my own community the retarded attempted to get a $12,000 LIP grant to operate a citizens’ advocacy programme and were unsuccessful, so I would think that the ministry will have to pick up that tab to make sure that we do have trained social workers to match up and to counsel these who are released into the community.", "The advocate could be, in many cases, sort of an ombudsman for the retarded so that he could act as a go-between for the individual and any complaints that he or she might have concerning any agency in the community.", "Mr. Speaker, I would like to make just a few more short comments concerning this bill, and in making these comments to read from a letter that was published in the Windsor Daily Star. It’s a letter written by Gordon S. Smith, executive director of the Windsor Association for the Mentally Retarded. He certainly spells out the problem well. He looks forward with brighter hope for the area and for those suffering from this handicap and he writes as follows:", "“There is no residence for trainable retarded children under 12 for either long-term or emergency care in Windsor. There is a need for a day activity programme for the more severely and multi-handicapped retarded adult, and more foster and boarding homes. I am happy to say that the association is presently working on these needs. We hope that this legislation will accelerate this work and enable the mentally retarded association in the community to resolve the problems.", "“In addition to these important needs, there has to be more support services. Although the Ministry of Community and Social Services may soon bring its protective programmes to Windsor and provide a social worker to look after the legal problems of the retarded, this will only provide partial assistance. If there are other adequate support services, such as a citizens’ advocacy, many of the legal problems will be eliminated, also many more Cedar Springs residents wall be able to make it in the community.", "“All these programmes and services cost money and it is true that the Windsor Association for the Mentally Retarded can only raise so much money. If government is really intent on phasing down institutions, then it must be prepared to redirect some of the taxes back into the community to provide it with increased capital grants for construction, renovations and equipment, and larger operating subsidies. Instead of Cedar Springs looking at sites in Windsor with an eye to building a small community residence, those funds which are available to do this should be directed to the associations who presently can only obtain $5,000 per bed and not 100 per cent of the cost, as would be provided through Cedar Springs.", "It is time to co-ordinate and, if necessary, consolidate all services for handicapped persons to give them that brighter hope. Finally, the Windsor Association for the Mentally Retarded is no longer content with the second best. We ask that mentally retarded people be free to participate in all aspects of community life, to be provided with appropriate services, not left to regress physically and mentally; free to live and work in society and to know some degree of economic security; free to have a qualified guardian, such as a citizen advocate, to protect a retarded person’s well-being and interests; free to enjoy the same basic rights as other citizens. It is not too much to ask.”", "That was signed by Gordon Smith, executive director of the Windsor Association for the Mentally Retarded.", "Mr. Speaker, with these few comments I will support the principle of the bill, hoping that the minister can implement that as quickly as possible, so that we don’t wait for 15 years to have what had been recommended to government for 15 years. Thank you." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Does any other member wish to participate?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a few comments with respect to the bill. It was interesting to receive the minister’s original statement at the time when we were finishing off the debate on the York teachers’ bill. As you will recall, sir, we were prepared to proceed with that bill before this House took its break last week.", "In the meantime, though, it was interesting as well, when the minister’s statement was read today, to see that suddenly four pages had become nine pages. Those additional pages dealt with some things which apparently had been greatly the concern of a number of groups within our community. I was concerned, in some preparation for this bill, in reviewing a couple of press articles that appeared in the London Free Press and in the Globe and Mail. They dealt particularly with the concerns of many parents as to the background and the knowledge that they felt they should have had before this decision was made to transfer under this bill the responsibility for mentally retarded persons.", "I’m quite sure the minister may state that it is only natural that every person may not know in depth the details or may not be aware of the legislation that’s coming up. But it seems to me that the views, at least reported from the meetings in London and in Toronto, were somewhat more serious than that. The areas of concern that were discussed there apparently have now been included at least in additional statements and assurances which the minister has made, particularly with respect to funding.", "It has been said this afternoon, as it has been said for some years, that this present administration in Ontario has not moved as promptly or as well as it should in order to take advantage of the Canada Assistance Plan. The leader of the New Democratic Party referred to the numbers involved, some 5,000 who are over 18 years of age, some 60 per cent of the total of some 8,000, who are now going to be able to obtain the kind of financial support from the federal government that we have suggested could have been arranged some years ago. The Provinces of Alberta, Saskatchewan and New Brunswick have already taken advantage of this programme, as my colleague from Windsor-Walkerville has pointed out.", "But I think that there are still some concerns that the minister’s statement has now met, at least part-way. The matter of cost-sharing with the federal government, of course, is important. While we become the fourth province, we have not, in fact, led the way as we should have in making this kind of legislation an important change in the approach which has been taken to retarded persons within our community.", "Increases of grants for construction of workshops and for day nurseries are another important aspect that we hope is going to result from this bill. I am most interested in knowing whether the approach that some of the parents’ groups have referred to with respect to the costs to individuals has been properly and fully explained to them. I think the minister has an obligation -- I’m sure he feels it too -- to make certain that the parents and guardians and other concerned with retarded persons in the community are well aware of what the financial picture is going to be. Is it going to be a burden? Is it going to be a benefit?", "I think the minister must make certain that the various associations for retarded persons have all the knowledge they must have so they know that various benefits which are going to be received from the federal government are going to be fully used in the development of better facilities and in the kinds of facilities that he has suggested. We also, I think, have to make certain that the various payments which have been called for, by and from parents, for support of retarded children or young persons, are no longer going to be a requirement.", "The minister, in his statement on page 5, has set out the eligibility extension and I’m pleased to see it here in detail because it wasn’t, of course, in the earlier statement. If the minister is correct that many parents are going to be relieved of expense and certainly over-anxiety for the care and development of their retarded children and young people, then I certainly wish him well as this legislation proceeds.", "The member for Windsor-Walkerville has suggested that this matter has been discussed in the House for certainly the 15 years that he has been here, and I’m certain those members who have served in the House longer than that period of time will also refer to earlier discussions and comments which they no doubt have had concerning the requirement for this kind of change.", "While the member for Peel South seems to feel this is a dramatic announcement, I think the minister will, at least, understand that we in the opposition cannot quite share his colleague’s approval of the legislation as a dramatic step. We think it’s a step which is long overdue. We think the failure of the government to take advantage of the financial benefits that the federal government has made available is most regrettable, because funds which could have been obtained have not been obtained over the past several years. As a result, there is perhaps some cynicism in our view that this change is being made as much for financial reasons as it is for the honest concern that we all should have with attempting to bring persons who have retarded facilities and abilities back into our community.", "I was interested in seeing the minister’s comment that he believes some 50 per cent of persons who are now in facilities will stand a very good chance of coming back into society. I certainly hope he’s correct.", "I think the procedure which is being taken to develop the cottage approach, shall we say, as opposed to a large institutional approach, is most worthwhile. One thing I would leave with the minister as a comment is that when the cottages, or the single-family homes, or whatever it is that is going to be coming, is in fact developed, that he does not go too far in turning them simply into mini-institutions.", "I think, for example, that in large buildings, no doubt particularly in the ones that we have seen developed over the past years, various fire, safety and other facilities have been very important criteria as to the development of those buildings. But I would suggest to the minister that if he is going to attempt to develop and bring these retarded persons into our society, it should be done with an eye to the kinds of homes that they are going to be going into eventually.", "There is, of course, some value in, and we must indeed be concerned about, fire and emergency exits and these other things which do add a goodly amount of cost to an ordinary home if it is to be used for that particular purpose. But I hope a certain balance will be kept because I think the funds can be used to good advantage. The funds, indeed, could be used perhaps to better advantage in building more standard kinds of homes -- the kinds of homes to which these persons are going to return as they become more and more a part of society. Of course, we have to have standards of fire safety. Naturally enough we must make sure that there are the required exits -- that construction is sound -- and that especially persons who might become easily confused in the event of an accident or a fire, or whatever, have clear and unobstructed ways of escape.", "But I would suggest that some consideration be given in retaining the home atmosphere. If that last safety aspect is bent a little bit, perhaps it will at least be worthwhile to consider as we look to the cost and the future real benefit. This is, of course, to get retarded persons back into our society.", "We in the opposition will, of course, support this bill. We are concerned that all of the details are made fully known to the parents, to the guardians and to the persons who are working with retarded persons. Many of these young persons are going to be particularly vulnerable to all sorts of problems.", "Indeed, unfortunately, some of our communities may not take the decision to welcome this kind of facility as we would hope they would take it. I hope that all the needs of the persons who are going to be turned over by this programme are going to be properly met.", "Of course, there will be a large transfer of civil servants; I understand some 7,000. And in the press it was reported that the value of the programme is some $93 million; so that indeed we are dealing with a substantial number of Ontario’s civil servants and we are dealing with a lot of our resources.", "I hope that the ministry is ready to handle this change. I hope that the transfer is not just going to be one in name, but in fact will be one in substance. Surely the problems that can occur are well known to the minister. I hope they have been thought through, so that the transfer of staff, the transfer of facilities, and the development of this programme is really going to be a new step in the treatment of the one person in a thousand within our society who requires this kind of facility.", "I wish the government well in the development of this kind of programme. We certainly welcome -- albeit after many years of request -- the final decision that the government has made to make this kind of transfer and to give a new hope to those persons in our society who are retarded." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Does any other member wish to participate in this debate? If not, the hon. minister." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I wish to thank the hon. members for their constructive comments. The consensus is that they are in agreement with the principle of this bill. As I have indicated, the main purpose of this bill is to provide enabling legislation in order to transfer the administrative responsibility from the Ministry of Health to our ministry.", "However, just as important, if not more important, this legislation will provide the framework for the mentally retarded to live in a community setting. That is the purpose: to transfer it from the Ministry of Health, where it was a hospital patient-oriented model, to a community resident model.", "I would like to assure the hon. members, Mr. Speaker, of the main purpose of obtaining federal sharing in the Canada Assistance Plan. All that money will be definitely used to expand the facilities and the services for the mentally retarded in order that they can take their just place in society." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gisborn", "text": [ "Will it be new money? That is what we are talking about." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle", "text": [ "Yes, within our own ministry -- when our budget is presented -- there are additional funds. Again, I would like to reiterate that the funds from the Canada Assistance Plan will be used entirely. We don’t know how much at this time. The leader of the NDP says $35 million. We estimated it will be somewhere between $25 million to $35 million.", "I wish, Mr. Speaker, to deal with the remarks of each individual member; but I think there are a couple of things that should be said. As I indicated in my remarks, there will be no problem with the adults sharing under the Canada Assistance Plan. The great majority of adults will be eligible. The advantage of having assistance under the family benefits plan is that when they move from an institution to a residence they will have mobility and their assistance will go with them. So there will be no delays as there are now when an application is made for FBA.", "As far as the children are concerned -- and this is the area of concern -- again I’d like to emphasize that in my remarks I mentioned that we have not yet come to any decision. There have been many discussions with the Ontario Association for the Mentally Retarded and with the parents of the children and this whole question is still under active consideration. However, our legislation is designed in such a way that there could be cost sharing.", "There will be an annual meeting of the Ontario Association of the Mentally Retarded in May in Peterborough and this matter will be fully discussed between now and that time with the association and the parents.", "The hon. member for York Centre, Mr. Speaker, asked to have the names of the facilities that will be transferred. I will be pleased to send him a list of the names of those facilities that are government operated. There are 12 institutions, plus three with partial facilities. There are eight institutions operated by boards. I will be pleased to send this to the hon. member for York Centre and any other member who would like to have the names of those institutions.", "The hon. member for Sudbury East referred to several matters, Mr. Speaker. One is with reference to funding and again I just mention that the funds from the Canada Assistance Plan will definitely go for expansion of additional facilities and services.", "Children who are in institutions now under the Ministry of Health are presently funded 100 per cent by the Ministry of Health and this will continue. Those which are funded under our ministry -- for instance homes for retarded persons -- we fund about 80 per cent. At the present time this legislation does not change the funding; it is strictly an administrative process from one ministry to the other. But as time goes on we will integrate and have a more co-ordinated plan of funding.", "The member referred to capital grants for workshops. He referred to this matter in our estimates and again I agree with him that certainly this is an area where we intend to provide more funding. The present assistance of 25 per cent in many areas is not adequate. However this is not part of this legislation; this will come at a later date.", "He referred to the new nursing home in Sudbury. I am advised, Mr. Speaker, that this home will be under the homes for special care. Only specifically chosen persons will be placed in this home and they will be adults; no children will be placed in this home. Also, this proposed move is still in the planning phase and the parents will be consulted. If there are strong objections we certainly will take them into consideration, because in all these matters, Mr. Speaker, we must deal with the parents, we must deal with the local associations. We must have their full co-operation and everything will be done in co-operation with the parents and the associations.", "The hon. member referred to Pioneer Manor. I am in agreement with what he said, that it is one of the best homes in the province. As the hon. member knows -- I believe I wrote to him recently -- we have given approval for an addition of 100 beds to this home.", "The hon. member for St. George referred to the definition of the meaning of developmental handicap. Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether I can elaborate further on the definition as it is contained in the Act. This term “developmental handicap” applies to retarded persons but is not as much of a stigma -- if I may use that expression. It is also indicated here that it means “a condition of mental impairment present or occurring during a person’s formative years, that is associated with limitations in adaptive behaviour.”", "The member also referred, Mr. Speaker, to the sort of do-it-yourself services under the Minister of Health. It is our intention to expand special services to families, such as family counselling, homemaker services, development daycare centres and so forth. This will all be done again in partnership with the local associations for the mentally handicapped. Also our legislation provides for the purchase and provision of services. We will be purchasing certain services from the Ministry of Health and also from local organizations.", "She referred to accommodation, and I agree with her. She mentioned this during our estimates, that there is certainly a need for accommodation for the handicapped, both the mentally and the physically, whereby those younger persons should not be placed with elderly persons. This is an area that we will be improving. The new Ministry of Housing, I believe, has legislation that will provide for more accommodation for the handicapped. We will be amending some of our own legislation. For instance, last year we amended the Charitable Institutions Act whereby we can provide debt retirement under CMHC. There are many retarded homes today that can be built under OMHC, if there were assistance from our ministry. They can obtain the mortgages. It is our intention to amend our legislation to provide for debt retirement under those circumstances.", "The hon. member for Parkdale, Mr. Speaker, also, made some very constructive comments. Again, I wish to reiterate to him and to the members that the main purpose of our transfer for the mentally retarded is to develop their potential to the maximum. The hon. member for Simcoe East referred to the two institutions in his riding -- Edgar, the adult occupational centre, and the one at Orillia, the Huronia regional centre. I wish to assure him that the farm and garden programme has not been discontinued. It is being reviewed in order to incorporate it into the community trust with reference to this new legislation.", "With regard to staff, this is quite a concern. It is understandable. I believe it has been mentioned that there are somewhere, I believe, around 7,800 staff which will be transferred from Health to our ministry. There have been many meetings with the staff of the Ministry of Health, along with some of our own officials meeting with the various staffs and their institutions to inform them of the transfer of this programme, and they have been assured that their employment will not be jeopardized. In certain instances, of course, there could be a changing of the role of that institution and there will have to be some adaptation. But there certainly is no question of their employment being jeopardized as a result of this transfer or any other benefits that they are presently receiving.", "The hon. member for Welland South referred to several matters, Mr. Speaker. Like previous members, he referred to the inadequate funding for residential facilities as well as workshops. I am entirely in agreement with him. We hope to provide more assistance.", "He referred to the public trustee. As far as the public trustee is concerned, Mr. Speaker, the services available presently under the Ministry of Health will continue under our ministry. There is, of course, an area of guardianship that is a very important area. There is a committee presently reviewing this matter, composed of our ministry, the Ministry of Health and the Attorney General’s department, and looking into this whole question of guardianship for the mentally retarded. We also are instituting an adult protective service programme, which will provide counselling and support services, including trusteeship, to retarded persons within the community. It’s a very important area, Mr. Speaker, and it’s one where we certainly will do our best to provide the necessary services.", "The leader of the NDP is not here, Mr. Speaker, but again his main concern was that the transfer was mainly a bid to obtain federal money without any assurance that it would be reinvested in facilities for the retarded. Again, this will definitely be done.", "I appreciated the remarks from the hon. member for Prince Edward-Lennox; a very fine constituency and a very fine member, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "That wasn’t necessary. The minister had to spoil it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle", "text": [ "The member for Rainy River referred to funding." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)", "text": [ "That’s a fine riding, too." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle", "text": [ "Will funds for the mental retardation programme in health be transferred to our ministry? Definitely the funds will be transferred. I was looking at this new policy brochure for the fiscal year of 1971-1972; and the amounts for the Ministry of Health, I believe, were about $83,680,000. The funds for those programmes that were in Health and are coming over to our ministry will definitely be transferred.", "The hon. member for Peel South --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Forget about him." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle", "text": [ "-- asked about the numbers of person who could be rehabilitated and it is estimated that about half of those who are now in institutions could be rehabilitated within a community setting.", "The hon. member for Windsor-Walkerville, Mr. Speaker, brought many matters to my attention and I believe I may be omitting some of the matters he brought up. I would like to assure all the hon. members that on those matters they brought to my attention I will write to them and give them answers. In the meantime, I will do my best to try to reply to some of the matters he brought out.", "In my remarks I referred to the age of 18; 18 years of age is the age eligibility for assistance under the Family Benefits Act. Therefore, all the adults who are 18 years of age and over in the institutions will be eligible for a pension or assistance under the Family Benefits Act. This does not mean that we will be considering those adults first for rehabilitation, those who can be, of course, into a community setting.", "Children certainly merit every consideration and quite a large number of those children will be rehabilitated within their own communities. When I say within their communities, some could go back to their families. Some may go to foster homes. Others could go to group homes. The 18 years old age reference is mainly for eligibility under the Family Benefits Act." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "Will there be financial provisions for the parents who take their children back?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle", "text": [ "On this whole question, as I said, with adults there is no problem; the problem is with the children. This is the area we are giving consideration to and where we are working closely with the parents and with the local associations. It is our intention, once we have arrived at some agreement, that there would be agreements with the families and with our ministry, and it will depend on the financial ability of those families.", "There will be some sort of an income test whereby those families will contribute what they normally would contribute for a normal child. In some cases, say low wage earners or persons who are on pensions, they may not make any contribution except, maybe, for the minimum of the family allowance, which is now $20 a month. So this whole area is one of concern, one where we certainly need the full co-operation of the parents and the local associations and one upon which there has been no decision made." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "It won’t have anything to do with the father’s income but rather the cost of the care provided." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle", "text": [ "Well, under the CAP there has to be a needs test, and for many parents there is no problem; many parents of low income earners and those who are on pensions will qualify, except that they may have to pay the $20 family allowance.", "With reference to graduates of colleges and universities, they certainly will be considered for employment in facilities and services for the mentally retarded. The hon. member may be familiar with the group of young Canadians -- I forget what they call themselves -- who are very interested in assisting the mentally retarded. They operate across Canada, but I forget the official name of the group. We do now employ graduates of colleges and universities and there probably could be an expansion of courses in this area.", "With reference to Canada Manpower, again we certainly agree that we will work very closely with Canada Manpower in trying to place those retarded who can obtain employment. We also intend to work closely with industry in this area. More should be done; there should be incentives to industry in order to provide employment to those who can work in an industrial area.", "The hon. member referred to capital grants for residential facilities. As I indicated earlier, I am in agreement that there should be an improvement; our present grant of $5,000 per bed under the Charitable Institutions Act is not adequate in this day and age.", "As I indicated earlier, Mr. Speaker, I am sure that I missed some of the matters that the hon. member brought to my attention, and I will be pleased to send him written reply to all the matters that he did bring up and that I have missed at the present time.", "The hon. member for Kitchener brought up the areas of concern to the parents with respect to the funding and, as I indicated earlier, this has not yet been decided. I agree with him also about residential facilities, that although they should meet the health and the fire standards, they should be such that they provide a home-like atmosphere. There also should be provision so that when a person leaves an institution and goes to a group home, eventually he could go from there to a regular apartment or home of his own. Certainly it is our intention to provide as much of a home-like atmosphere as possible.", "Mr. Speaker, again I thank the hon. members for their contribution, and I wish to assure them that it is definitely our intention to improve the facilities and the services to the mentally retarded.", "Motion agreed to; second reading of the bill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Shall the bill be ordered for third reading?", "Agreed." ] }, { "speaker": "Clerk of the House", "text": [ "The first order, resuming the adjourned debate on the amendment to the amendment to the motion for an address in reply to the speech of the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor at the opening of the session." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, before you proceed with this order, I wonder if I may ask for the concurrence of the House. The hon. member for Sandwich-Riverside (Mr. Burr) was speaking when the debate was adjourned. He is unfortunately required to be with the select committee this afternoon dealing with the preparation of the report and is unable to be in the House. If the House could grant unanimous consent to permit him to complete his speech at a subsequent sitting, it would certainly be appreciated by the hon. member and by me on behalf of the party." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I would say that there is another hon. member, in addition to the hon. member for Sandwich- Riverside, who had moved adjournment of the debate previously. It was my intention, if either of these hon. members wishes to pursue his participation in this debate, that I would ask for the concurrence of the House. I am sure there will be no difficulty at that time. With our provisions in the standing orders, no member may speak twice; and I would need concurrence, which I will seek if and when the time arises." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. Root (Wellington-Dufferin)", "text": [ "Well, Mr. Speaker, I had hoped to complete my remarks tonight, but I have been sitting here for two afternoons and I am afraid that I am not going to get very far into what I want to say, but if you want me to proceed, I will start." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Why doesn’t the member tell a couple of jokes or something?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Root", "text": [ "All right, I will. Mr. Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to make some comments regarding the speech that was delivered by his Honour, the Lieutenant Governor, at the opening of this session on March 5.", "First of all, let me commend you, sir, on the fair manner in which you preside over the debates in this House, endeavouring to give everyone a fair chance to be heard.", "I realize that your task is not easy, because I must say that having sat in this House for over 22 years I have seen Legislatures that were more orderly than the present Legislature.", "I have wondered sometimes whether members of the opposition, in particular the NDP, are hard of hearing. I note when you call the leader of that party to order, he quite often turns and faces the other way and goes right on talking. It may be that he has difficulty hearing, or it may be that he wants to interject into other members’ speeches --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "No way." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Root", "text": [ "-- so that he can get his comments out in the Hansard and destroy the effect of the other member’s speech." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "If I had known the member was going to be that nasty --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Root", "text": [ "Well, I am trying to accommodate the member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Is this part of the member’s speech?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)", "text": [ "This is one of the jokes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Root", "text": [ "At any rate, Mr. Speaker --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Did he write that into his speech?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Root", "text": [ "At any rate, Mr. Speaker, I favour a two-party system --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "I bet he does." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Root", "text": [ "-- where you have a government and you have an opposition that has the responsibility of keeping the government on its toes. I used to wonder why we had a third party, but sometimes when I look across and see members of that third party sitting with their feet on their desks, with their coats off, interjecting, and sometimes their language --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "He means when he is here he looks across and he sees that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Root", "text": [ "-- in my opinion, is not appropriate language for a parliament, I can see where perhaps there is a useful purpose by having a third party to attract that type of member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "It’s such a pleasure to hear from him." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Root", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I wish you well in the days -- this is the type of thing, Mr. Speaker, that I am referring to, that continual interjecting to get into my speech." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "That’s right. It is the unprovocative nature of the member’s comments." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Root", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I wish you well in the days that lie ahead. I know we are all pleased to see you back in the chair. I know that you will do your best to deal fairly with all members.", "I want to pay tribute to the Honourable W. Ross Macdonald, who has been a worthy representative of the monarchy here in Ontario. He has been a credit to that institution and retires with the respect of all members of the House.", "With regard to the Speech from the Throne, I was interested to note that despite projection of slower economic growth this year, it is still hoped that the level of employment achieved in 1973, which produced a record of 149,000 new jobs, will be maintained.", "I also note that for the second consecutive year dwelling starts in Ontario have exceeded 100,000 units, a rate of construction which is consistent with the government’s overall objective of one million new dwelling units in 10 years.", "These two comments indicate the effect of the sound progressive policies that have been pursued by the Progressive Conservative Party during the years this party has been charged with the responsibility of government." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Oh, balderdash." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Root", "text": [ "Look at the record of some of our sister provinces. I noted in the Globe and Mail on Sept. 27, 1973, that the population of Saskatchewan had dropped by 52,000 from 1968 to 1973 --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Isn’t there a rule that members are not allowed to read in the House, Mr. Speaker?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Root", "text": [ "-- or at the rate of 10,400 a year, while in the same period, from 1966 to 1973 --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Gilbertson (Algoma)", "text": [ "No opportunity there!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Root", "text": [ "-- Ontario’s population had grown by some 956,000 or an increase of 136,590 per year. This shift in population reflects the confidence that people have in this dynamic province, which has become a land of opportunity under the sound policies of this government.", "I’m sure that the thousands of people who are getting out from under the dead hand of socialism in Saskatchewan are pleased that there are provinces like Ontario that are providing up to 140,000 or more new jobs in one year and 100,000 new housing starts.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Root", "text": [ "I know that all fair-minded people realize that in expanding an economy at times we have to go into deficit financing.", "I have heard hon. members complaining about our debts, and, really, no one likes debt. But when you realize, Mr. Speaker, that this province has become so prosperous that, according to last year’s budget, our revenue went up to over $6 billion and the debt was less than $3 billion. We can realize also that if we stopped all the programmes we could wipe out our debt in less than six months." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "What programmes?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Root", "text": [ "Well, maybe the hon. member will start telling us what programmes he wants wiped out." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)", "text": [ "If the member believes in deficit financing why doesn’t he say it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Root", "text": [ "That’s the way I bought my farm, absolutely.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Root", "text": [ "In addition to financing our own programmes and providing the job opportunities for a population that has grown by nearly four million since the party took office, we are providing almost half of the national budget. I am sure that Mr. Trudeau and his finance minister are pleased that Ontario has prospered as no other province has prospered, so that from us they can get the revenue to help provinces --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Come on now! British Columbia has done pretty well. The member shouldn’t be so niggardly in his praise." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Root", "text": [ "I am sure that Mr. Trudeau and his finance minister approve that Ontario has prospered as no other province has prospered, so that from us they can get the revenue to help provinces that haven’t had the good fortune to live under Conservative policies for the years that we have in Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "BC can finance its own projects." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Root", "text": [ "I agree with the statement in the Throne Speech that, if we are to alleviate the causes and effects of inflation, the problem can only be dealt with in the national context with all governments co-operating. I am sure that everyone in Ontario will appreciate a comprehensive programme to improve essential services in remote areas of the province.", "During the years I served on the Ontario Water Resources Commission I had the privilege of visiting many of the remote areas of the province. I sometimes wonder whether our people realize the expanse of this great province, I wonder if we realize that the most northerly part of Ontario is many hundreds of miles south of the Arctic Circle, and, at the same time, the Soviet Union has hundreds of thousands of people living north of the Arctic Circle." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Even with that knowledge what would the government do with it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Root", "text": [ "I think it is forward thinking to make every possible effort to develop that part of our province. I note that there are plans for a road link to James Bay through Moosonee --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Again?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Root", "text": [ "-- and that a power line will be constructed into that area and studies will be made regarding the establishment of a port facility in the James Bay area, to bring potential supplies of gas, oil and mineral from sources in the eastern Arctic." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "The Lieutenant Governor read all that three weeks ago." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Root", "text": [ "I remember the first time I visited Moosonee about 20 years ago and rubbed out clover seed fully matured in September. I predicted at that time that there would be great developments in the northern part of the province --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)", "text": [ "Was the member around the first time they predicted that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Root", "text": [ "-- that will affect not only shipping and transportation but agriculture. The north is grass country. I want to commend the Minister of Agriculture and Food (Mr. Stewart) and his ministry on their programme to develop a cow-calf operation in that part of the province. I think there can be a great future for that type of industry and the feeder cattle can come south into the corn belts where they can be finished.", "The development into the northern part of the province is a continuation of the policies that have been pursued by the Conservative Party. During the time I have served in this Legislature I have seen the government build a new highway on the north shore of Lake Superior and on through to Atikokan." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "The Trans-Canada." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "He must have been here for a long time." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Not long enough." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "He’s going to be here a lot longer, too." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. M. Havrot (Timiskaming)", "text": [ "Just listen to the words of wisdom." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)", "text": [ "Members opposite needn’t be jealous." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Root", "text": [ "From there we went on through to Fort Frances, where the Noden Causeway was built to shorten the traffic route from Fort Frances in that part of the province to the head-of-the-lakes. I have travelled the new highway that was built by this government to Red Lake. I remember the first time I was in Hornepayne; we went in by train and people wanted a road out. I remember stopping at one station in the morning -- incidentally, there were no liberals on that trip; they didn’t seem to be interested in the north." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. N. Allan (Haldimand-Norfolk)", "text": [ "All good Tories." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Root", "text": [ "The people wanted a road out. That was a members’ tour. That road has been built. There are new highways into Manitouwadge and Elliot Lake; improved highways from Espanola to Little Current; a bridge giving access to St. Joseph’s Island." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Did the member ride over Highway 11 between Beardmore and Geraldton?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Root", "text": [ "I have mentioned but a few of the developments that have taken place in northern Ontario. I remember the first time I was in Moosonee I drove from Cochrane to Kapuskasing on a dirt road which was under construction. There was no bridge at Smooth Rock Falls." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "They’re still building it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Root", "text": [ "We had to go over the dam. All of these improvements have taken place and I must say I get a little weary when I hear some people saying that this government has done nothing for northern Ontario. I suggest this government has a record of service --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "This government has done nothing for northern Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Root", "text": [ "-- that has not been equalled’ by any government at any time in the province.", "I am sure the northern people will appreciate the fact that following the success of the norOntair air service this is to be extended into more communities in northwestern Ontario. Air service means a lot in the northern part of the province, with the great distances that have to be travelled. I remember one day just a few weeks ago when I had to sit in on a meeting of the Environmental Hearing Board at Sioux Narrows." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "That’s something else we want to change." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Root", "text": [ "Because of the air service provided in, the north, I was able to leave Toronto in the morning, fly to Dryden, travel on a ministry plane to Sioux Narrows, hold the hearing and be back in Toronto in time for supper. This is the type of service that is bringing our province together in a compact, easily-served community." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Unfortunately, there are not too many people who can fly with the ministry." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "The member does." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "The member for Thunder Bay gets his fair share; don’t complain." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "No more than what’s due." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Was the member for Wellington-Dufferin also being paid at the same time?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Root", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, we will await with interest Ontario’s policy on the control and development of uranium as a provincial natural resource. I must say I was pleased to hear the leader of the Liberal Party come out in support of the CANDU-type reactor. This is a complete about-face from some of his speeches in the past when he was promoting other forms of power generation. However, that is not the first time, nor probably the last time, that the leader of the Liberal Party will right-about-face." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Where does the member stand on the denturists? Is he going to change with the government this week?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Root", "text": [ "However, I think the leader of the Liberal Party is an honourable member. He may have difficulty in getting support from some of his members, and that may be the reason he changes course from day to day.", "Mr. Speaker, it’s 6 o’clock. With your permission I will move the adjournment of the debate and I will be pleased to resume my remarks at a later date.", "Mr. Root moves the adjournment of the debate.", "Motion agreed to." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, before I move the adjournment of the House I will say we’ll return to this debate on Thursday when we’ll have the pleasure of listening to the concluding remarks of the member for Wellington-Dufferin.", "Hon. Mr. Winkler moves the adjournment of the House.", "Motion agreed to.", "The House adjourned at 6 o’clock, p.m." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. J. R. Rhodes (Minister of Transportation and Communications)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on March 14, 1974, the Canadian Transport Commission granted exemption to two Manitoba-based highway carriers under the Lord’s Day Act. The decision means that these two truckers may use the highways in Ontario and Quebec to run their trucking operations on Sunday.", "Last week I issued instructions to my staff to appeal these two decisions. I have been advised that applications, pursuant to section 28 of the federal Court Act, have been filed today requesting the federal Court to review these decisions.", "Mr. Speaker, you will recall that in October and November of last year the motor vehicle committee of the Canadian Transport Commission held hearings in Toronto respecting the requests of these two carriers for exemption, and the governments of Quebec and Ontario intervened against the granting of such exemptions." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Oral questions.", "The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker.", "I would like to ask the Premier whether Ontario has conveyed a position to the Prime Minister of Canada and the governments of Alberta and Saskatchewan regarding the freeze on the price of oil and petroleum products? Are we in a position to assist in the negotiations that seem to be, let’s say breaking down to some extent as the deadline for the price change comes closer?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. G. Davis (Premier)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the understanding at the conclusion of the last first ministers’ meeting was that there would be some adjustment of price on April 1. The Prime Minister of Canada, according to the press -- and I think it is accurate -- has had meetings with the premiers of both Alberta and Saskatchewan; and of course he is convening a meeting of all the provincial premiers under his chairmanship on Wednesday.", "I can’t predict, Mr. Speaker, what the results of that meeting may be. The position of this government was, I think, very dearly stated a few days ago in this House by the Minister of Energy (Mr. McKeough). While we don’t totally understand the $6 figure, which was used by the federal government as a possibility at the last meeting, we did state, or the minister did in this House, that we would not take violent exception to the establishment of a $6 price.", "Now, whether or not this will materialize on Wednesday, Mr. Speaker, I wish I could tell the Leader of the Opposition. I would like to know whether it will, in fact, be accepted by everybody and that that will be the result of the meeting; but quite honestly I can’t at this stage, nor can I give him any further guidance at this moment until after the Wednesday meeting." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A further question of the Premier: Is it the plan of any member of the administration, on behalf of the government, to submit any material to the commission that is investigating the Pickering airport while they are holding their hearings in the Malton area, with the idea of the possibility of expanding Malton instead of sticking with the Pickering airport?", "Has the government of Ontario’s position on this changed in any way? Are there any surveys that are available to the Premier, or any member of the ministry, having an impact on this that could lead the government of Ontario to indicate that they feel the present Pickering plan should not go forward in its present form?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "No, Mr. Speaker, we have no additional information as it relates to the need or otherwise of the second international airport. We have communicated, to Mr. Justice Gibson I believe it is, that if there are certain factual things that might emerge during the hearing where information from the province would be helpful, we would be quite prepared to supply it.", "But as I recall the terms of reference, they are relatively narrow and they are confined to the question of need; and here we feel, Mr. Speaker, is the area for the federal government, of course, to make the ultimate determination; and of course this is the rationale for the hearing itself.", "Certainly, if there are certain facts that emerge or certain questions that are raised during this hearing where ministries or personnel in the government can be helpful in answering them, we have communicated to the commission that we would be prepared to provide information." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary: Is there any change in the government’s attitude, that was first expressed by the present Minister of Energy, that Pickering is the ideal site as far as Ontario is concerned?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I don’t like to quote a colleague. I think, as I recall it, the present Minister of Energy stated that if there was to be a second international airport, that we felt from the standpoint of the province there was merit in having that international airport east of Metropolitan Toronto rather than, say, some substantial distance north or west.", "I don’t think the Minister of Energy, the then Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, said it was the best site; because I don’t think we are in a position to make that determination. What we did say was that if there was to be a second airport -- if there was in fact a need for a second one -- that it would fit in with the TCR and the desire on the part of this government to see development created east of Metropolitan Toronto rather than the continuation of the pressures to the west." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)", "text": [ "By way of supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Since the Premier placed it in the context that he has, he would agree that the scheme envisaged by the Toronto-centred region plan did not permit of an airport immediately on the periphery of Metropolitan Toronto, that this would in fact violate the plan, but considered growth somewhat farther east than that in order to conform with government objectives. Since the Premier put it in that context himself, why does he not now make a submission to the Airport Inquiry Commission indicating the inconsistency of the present site, given the overall economic objectives of his government?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, with great respect to the hon. member, as I understand the function of the commission it is to determine not the location of a second international airport, but in fact whether a second airport is necessary.", "I think it is fair to state, Mr. Speaker, that if we’d all had our druthers, if the airport had been X number of miles farther east it would have been more consistent -- no question about that -- with the TCR. But I think it is not a question of saying it should go --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "We wouldn’t have had the airport then -- it achieves the same purpose." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I think it is not a question of saying it should be farther east; I think the commission really is inquiring into whether there is a need for a second facility, period." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Shouldn’t this government have a report on that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, by way of supplementary to the Premier, is it reasonable to conclude from what he has just said that he is going to move with prompt dispatch to establish residential facilities in the North Pickering site? Or is that still left in abeyance?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "No, Mr. Speaker, I think it is fair to state that we will be moving with all reasonable dispatch to provide residential accommodation in that area, because that is consistent with the TCR and with the objective of this government to provide housing. I would assume, as we get into this during the estimates of one ministry or another, that the members opposite will be as enthusiastic about a residential community out there as we are." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "In line with that answer, Mr. Speaker, could the Premier explain the reason for a report addressed to the Ministry of the Environment and dated February, 1974, which relates to water services for North Pickering. It says: “Stage three: Provide for the completion of the water supply system for North Pickering -- 1985 ultimate.” Does that tie in with the Premier’s statement about prompt development?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Speaker, I think it does. There are two aspects of servicing. As the hon. member for Downsview is fully aware, there is the question of the long term and the major trunks; there is nothing to preclude a certain amount of development going ahead without the complete overall servicing. We’ve done this in other areas of the province, and this really should be asked of the Minister of Housing (Mr. Handleman). But I’m relatively optimistic that we can move ahead without completion of the total water and sewage systems." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Is the Premier familiar with that report and the staging of the services?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Supplementary: Why doesn’t the Premier make public now all the private little studies that are taking place on North Pickering, that have been requested by the members of the management consortium, who are working on the whole project, in order to give the citizens, with whom the government pretends to consult publicly, some sense of what is going on in the background of the government plans?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, it is the intent of the government, and this was made very clear by the former minister, that we involve the people of the area in the development of the overall plan. This was quite consistent with the fact that the three hamlets, as I call them, will be maintained, that the people there will not be expropriated, that they will be part of the overall plan for the area and that they will be involved in the process itself.", "I can’t comment this afternoon, Mr. Speaker, as to what reports will be made available to the consortium that is developing the plan, or how relevant this is. I can only assure the hon. member it is the intent of this government to take into consideration, in the overall plan, the views of the people who are continuing to live in that area. There’s no question about it; it makes a great deal of sense and we intend to do it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Like this report of February?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. W. Hodgson (York North)", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Since the inquiry commission is now studying whether or not there should be an airport, I want to ask the Premier if in the event it is decided a second airport is not necessary at this time, would the present freeze on areas of Whitchurch, Stouffville, Uxbridge and Scott township be lifted immediately after the commission’s report comes out?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Oh yes; right away." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Well Mr. Speaker, I would think that if the federal government decides that there will not be a second international airport in that area, then the restrictions we have placed upon some of that area at the request of the federal government quite obviously would be lifted forthwith." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I would like to ask the Premier if he can explain to the House why there is a continuing delay in making public the detailed descriptions of the boundaries of the land covered by the Parkway Act that went through the Legislature, I believe last June. Are there still negotiations between the government and individual landholders concerned with whether certain parcels will be included or not, or is this just a delay in the bureaucracy?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "No, Mr. Speaker, there are no negotiations with any owners within the parkway belt. The finalization is a complex matter as far as metes and bounds descriptions are concerned, and of course this information then will be the subject of a hearing before a hearing officer. It is our hope that we can start these hearings sometime in the next two or three months. It will be a complicated process --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "The government starts the hearing?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Yes, it has to go through hearings. There is the establishment of the parkway committee -- I forget the exact terminology -- which will have some involvement in the general concept of the scheme; but the details of it, of course, are complex. The rough outlines are there and there are no negotiations with owners within the parkway as to whether the line might be moved a little bit north, south, east or west. That is not going on." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary: Why wouldn’t the hearing take place before the metes and bounds descriptions are made public? Surely there is some room for argument before the final boundaries are established and the hearings should take place before that is determined." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "With great respect, Mr. Speaker, it really should be just the reverse. We will lay down what we think the boundaries should be. The people who are affected will then have an opportunity to present their points of view to the hearing officer, who in turn makes recommendations to the government. When those recommendations are received then it is the responsibility of the government -- and I think we bring it before the House, I am not sure -- to accept or reject the recommendations of the hearing officer.", "If we were to do it on the general basis now, it could be that some owners who, when the metes and bounds descriptions are finalized, would not be affected, might have to go to the trouble of going and preparing some information for a hearing officer; and then find out, subsequently, that they wasted their time. It is also possible that the reverse may be true.", "As I say, it’s a complex legal matter that has to be finalized. I think really to have the metes and bounds descriptions and so on finalized before the hearings is really the only logical way to do it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "By way of supplementary, can the Premier tell us why it is taking so long to prepare the metes and bounds descriptions? They were promised in November, in January, in February, and according to advice I’ve received they are still now two months delayed. Yet when metes and bounds descriptions are necessary, such as those the government needed for North Pickering, they are produced very quickly. Is the real reason why they haven’t been produced that the government is intending to abandon the whole parkway belt concept?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I recognize that the member for Downsview, for reasons that completely escape me -- and perhaps other members of his party -- would like to see this government abandon the parkway concept, and see nothing but urbanization from the centre of downtown Toronto to north of Snelgrove -- nothing but concrete and asphalt -- which is a view shared, I am sure, by the member for York-Forest Hill (Mr. Givens). But I want to assure the member for Downsview that we are not that reactionary. We do believe in urban control --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)", "text": [ "Just inquiring." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Not reactionary?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "We intend to stick to the parkway belt concept; the answer to that is yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Well why does it take so long to make the metes and bounds descriptions?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Because we want to do it right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Oh, baloney! Baloney." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "It is taking a long time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. P. G. Givens (York-Forest Hill)", "text": [ "I am glad to see the Premier pays attention to some of the things the members of the opposition ask.", "Doesn’t the Premier think that it is terribly unfair to people who are caught up in this parkway belt, that the government has waited a whole year before even coming around to public hearings, and that it will probably take at least another year until a report comes in after the hearings are held? At the rate the government is going, it will probably take five years before it is ready to come in with a report as to where it finally stands with the parkway belt. Doesn’t the Premier think it is terribly unfair to people who are involved in this scheme?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would think that if it took five years, it would be somewhat less than equitable. In that it won’t take five years, I don’t think it will be less than equitable." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "It’d be more inequitable --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I can only say to the member for York-Forest Hill that this is a very major programme and undertaking by this government. We believe we are doing this in the interests of the general population, and while I recognize without any question that there are some people within the parkway belt, some corporations, some developers, who are being affected, without any question, who are being inconvenienced --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Some private owners." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Some farmers; a lot of farmers." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Not that many farmers, with great respect. They are, in fact, being inconvenienced --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "How many is many? More than one?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "We recognize this, but at the same time, if one is going to undertake as comprehensive a programme as this, to say you are going to do it without some degree of inconvenience to some of the owners is just not realistic. However, I can assure the hon. member for York-Forest Hill it will not take five years." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "How many surveyors has the government working on it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Leader of the Opposition.", "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Labour. I’d like the Minister of Labour to tell me something about his view of the metes and bounds -- it’s clearly a fashionable phrase now -- of the behaviour of Trailwind Products division of Indal Products Ltd. closing down its plant on Friday afternoon, with less than eight hours notice to its workers, to move to Brampton in order to pay lower wages to the work force without guaranteeing further employment to those whose employment was terminated on Friday." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. P. D. Lawlor (Lakeshore)", "text": [ "And lower taxes!" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. F. Guindon (Minister of Labour)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, this matter was brought to my attention just before coming into the Legislature today and I promised to look into it. I will be glad to report to my hon. friend tomorrow." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "All right. Well I have a supplementary then. Could the minister in the process of his report explain how this is possible, since the Employment Standards Act section on termination says no employer shall terminate the employment of a person who has been employed for three months or more, unless he gives a certain amount of notice; and the employees received notice on Friday for a shutdown that day?", "I want to know, in his reply, what the minister is going to do with respect to provisions of the Employment Standards Act. Could he also explain whether it is now desirable in Ontario for a plant deliberately to lower the wages of workers and deny certification to a union by shifting in this fashion?", "Would the minister do that when he answers?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Speaker; that’s the reason I would like to get all the facts before I make a decision." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have another question of the Minister of Labour. Can he bring the House up to date on negotiations between Union Gas and the OCAW?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, all I can report at this time is that the parties did meet last week -- as recently as last Thursday -- on their own." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Supplementary: Is the minister aware that negotiations broke off at 10:10 in the morning last Friday with no rescheduling? And has the minister taken a look at the possibility that the prolongation of this strike, now into its seventh week, might have some serious connection with the company’s present rate application and its wish to plead poverty before the Energy Board in order to make a case? Doesn’t he think that is a useful thing for the Ministry of Labour to examine when it is looking over this strike?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am keeping very close to this strike at the present time, along with my senior officials, and I will continue to do so." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Can the minister tell the House if the Minister of Energy’s, let’s say, rather quick decisions to ask that the OPP be brought in to protect certain facilities, has in any way affected the negotiations that have now been broken off?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, in reply, I would say to my hon. friend, not to my knowledge." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Are the OPP still guarding these facilities?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "As far as I know, they are." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, if the minister has kept in touch, does he realize that the matter has bogged down, essentially, on non-monetary issues; which is very unusual in prolonging this kind of a strike? Would he report to the House the behaviour of Union Gas over the first two or three weeks of the strike in its bargaining position? Can he do that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "I’d be glad to report any information I can possibly give at this time." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "All right, I have another question for the minister about the Horton strike in Fort Erie, it is a subsidiary of Chicago Bridge. Is the minister aware that this strike has occurred because the company refuses to provide a 50 per cent payment to the spouse in the event a man should die before pensionable age of 65? Does the minister not think, in the light of what has been recommended from the Law Reform Commission and to the Canada Pension Plan, that he might speak to the company about the appropriateness of making these pension funds available to the spouse?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "I would like to see the collective agreement in this particular case, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "By way of supplementary, surely the minister would recognize that they were in negotiations and that this is now a negotiable item? Doesn’t the hon. minister think it makes sense that the widow should receive 50 per cent at least of the pensionable benefits if the worker dies before retirement? After all, he has paid into them, presumably. Doesn’t the minister think that is a worthy basis for his intervention?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "Quite right, Mr. Speaker. I know it is a negotiable item and I am sure the two parties will resolve it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. Haggerty (Welland South)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "A supplementary; the hon. member for Welland South." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On the Horton Steelworks, Fort Erie, Ont., the question I want to ask the minister is a follow-up to what the leader of the NDP asked. I believe the minister, two years or a year ago, reported to the House that there was a study to be made on such items as mentioned -- survivors’ benefits, dealing with pensions and so forth; is that report ready now?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I haven’t had the report as yet, although I do expect it at any moment; I would say within weeks." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A question, Mr. Speaker, of the Minister of Transportation and Communications: Can the minister indicate to the House whether or not he might be willing to increase the subsidy to the Toronto Transit Commission in order to maintain fares at their present level and in order to avert the fare increase that would be forthcoming; all of this given his alleged policy on public transit?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, this is a subject which is being considered at the present time. There are a number of discussions going on and I don’t think I can give a direct answer at this time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "By way of supplementary, I take it that an additional subsidy to the TTC is therefore now under consideration with a view to holding the line on fares?" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "No." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I think the answer is that we have already stated there was to be some increase made to the subsidy. I think that has been discussed already by the TTC." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "By way of supplementary, the minister is saying that the previous announcement, which will require an increase in fares, will in fact be endorsed by this government; I ask him what it does to his emphasis on public transit to allow fares to rise to a prohibitive level?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, we are well aware of the circumstances at the present time, and if there is any further information for the House I will be pleased to bring it here." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Givens", "text": [ "A supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for York-Forest Hill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Givens", "text": [ "Having regard for the fact that a considerable proportion of the revenue raised, which is paid by the transportation user, goes on the payment of sales tax -- the provincial sales tax on rolling stock, equipment and diesel fuel -- would the minister consider exempting these articles from the provincial sales tax in order to keep fares down?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am afraid the question of exemptions from the provincial sales tax or the federal sales tax doesn’t fall within my jurisdiction." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Givens", "text": [ "But can he not recommend it to the appropriate ministers?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I have a question of the Attorney General, if I may.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I understand why the member for York-Forest Hill is exercised because the government does nothing for public transit except talk about it.", "May I ask the Provincial Secretary for Justice and Attorney General, if he can undertake to the House not to permit any further prosecutions of denturists in the Province of Ontario while discussions are taking place behind the scenes with the Minister or Health (Mr. Miller) about a possible revision to the Denture Therapists Act?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. R. Welch (Provincial Secretary for Justice and Attorney General)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, it would be quite improper and irresponsible on the part of the Attorney General to give such an undertaking." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "By way of supplementary, is it not equally improper to persecute selectively or prosecute selectively -- both are appropriate -- individual denturists; particularly when there is clearly some kind of re-examination taking place of the legislation? Why hound people through the courts when retroactively the government will exonerate them?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "No further questions." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The Minister of Housing has the answer to a question asked previously." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. S. B. Handleman (Minister of Housing)", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for Brant (Mr. R. F. Nixon) asked on March 15 if I would undertake to table a complete list of the land holdings of Ontario Housing not yet developed that might be said to form part of the land bank, such as it is.", "In answer to the hon. member’s question, I am tabling a list of the Ontario Housing Corp.’s land bank inventory. The list of some 18,000 acres of land includes some land now under development, such as that in Hamilton and Saltfleet. As well, it includes lands being held for future development, such as Niagara Falls, Waterloo and Ottawa-Carleton. These lands wall, of course, be developed in accordance with regional and municipal land development priorities, and we will be working closely with them.", "In addition, any acquisition the corporation is assembling or will assemble in the future will be announced when the assemblies have been completed." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for York-Forest Hill." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Givens", "text": [ "I would like to ask the Minister of Housing whether he considers an apartment vacancy rate of less than one per cent in Metropolitan Toronto and an average house price of $50,000 -- particularly when one hasn’t got the money -- psychological or economical?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I assume the hon. members question was facetious. I don’t consider the situation to be satisfactory.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Supplementary?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Ottawa East with a supplementary -- Ottawa West with a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Ottawa Centre, Mr. Speaker!", "In view of the minister’s comments about there only being a housing price crisis, does he feel that the fact that housing starts have declined in major urban centres in the province is only a reflection of the housing price crisis, or reflects a genuine housing shortage?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Well Mr. Speaker, I don’t know whether the hon. member has checked his facts, but housing starts have, in fact, not decreased in the urban centres of the province -- and therefore I can’t answer the question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "In major urban centres." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Does the hon. member have a supplementary? If not, the hon. member for High Park." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Shulman (High Park)", "text": [ "Has the minister considered bringing in rent control as one way of bringing down the cost of housing?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the answer is no." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Why not?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Downsview." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of the Environment. Would the Minister of the Environment advise us about the recommendations received by his ministry in a report called: “Water and Sewage Systems, Central York and Pickering Areas”? It says, among other things, the development of these projects over the last seven years has been delayed several times; and that when the recommendations in the report are carried out, the recommendations call for the building of watermains and sewermains in the period projected beyond 1985 but very little between 1974 and 1975, How is the government going to build houses and relieve, in the words of the report “the pressures for serviced land and housing,” if it is going to stick by these recommendations, which are to be considered, the report says, “not the proposals of a single ministry but rather a provincial undertaking as a whole”? Can the minister tell us how he is going to get on with housing if the government doesn’t build anything until 1985?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. A. Grossman (Provincial Secretary for Resources Development)", "text": [ "Now if the minister can remember the question." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman (Minister of the Environment)", "text": [ "Well quite obviously the member didn’t read the initial report that came out three years ago." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "No, I am talking about this report in February, 1974." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "The whole programme is a staged programme; and the member is talking about far-reaching parts of the area in 1985." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Yes, but the government is not doing anything in 1974 and 1975." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "There has been --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "In dollars or anything else." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "Oh, yes --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Was that a supplementary? It didn’t sound like one." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I have a supplementary. How many serviced lots does the government expect to be able to release in the North Pickering area within the next three to four years?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "Well, as the member knows, there is still an environmental board hearing to be held on the York-Pickering sewer lines. This will be started very shortly. I can’t give the member the exact number of lots that will be released for building in 1974-1975." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary, having to do with the problem that was expressed by the member for Downsview: Has the Minister of the Environment got a report that indicates there is a threat of serious deep-well pollution in the York area, because of the development that has gone on in an improperly serviced manner in an area called the Oak Ridges moraine; which, in fact, provides the water facilities for a good deal of the area under consideration." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "I know they are rapidly running out of water in that area, but certainly I haven’t seen that particular report." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, by way of further supplementary: Does this report represent government policy, or is the staging going to be as the report sets out? Or what staging does the minister have in mind and how is he going to provide serviced lots in the central York and Pickering area?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "As the member knows, the hearings are already over on the matter of the plan. We are moving forward as quickly as possible in our ministry, and we are also working with the Ministry of Housing on this project." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Is the minister following the schedule in the report?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "Which report is the member talking about?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Ah, the one of February, 1974, with the name of the Ministry of the Environment on it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "We are working on a programme to expedite water and sewage as quickly as possible so that the people of this province may have homes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "But nothing in 1974." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order. I believe that I called two members of the Liberal Party in succession the last time; therefore, in the interests of equalization of opportunity, I shall call two members of the New Democratic Party.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Wentworth." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)", "text": [ "Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker; I would like to ask the Minister of Labour a question. How long is it going to be before the Becker Milk Co. is required to adhere to the recommendations of Mr. Carter, after he inquired into the unfair practices which it has with regard to its employees?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member is referring to the Becker case, of course. Four of the former employees have been dealt with, I think, by Prof. Carter. I understand that if there are any other applications, or any other employees who feel they come under the same category, they would have to apply to the company.", "However, I must admit that this is a fairly complex case which has lasted several months, and I will probably have to refresh my memory before giving the member a definite answer." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "They should get Anthony Bazos on that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Well, is it the intention of the government to bring Becker Milk Co. employees under the Employment Standards Act and give them the kind of protection that’s required? Is it the intention of the government to do it now and to put a stop to the kind of practices that employees of Becker Milk have been undergoing and taking over the last 10 years?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "This is very actively being considered by myself at this time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Oh, supplementary question: I’m not interested in whether it’s actively being considered. Is it the intention of the government to do just what Prof. Carter in fact recommended, and find that the Becker Milk employees are in fact employees rather than franchised dealers, and give them the protection that other employees in the Province of Ontario have?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "Yes. As I said, Mr. Speaker, I have given this some serious consideration in recent months, and I propose some day to amend the Employment Standards Act to protect these people." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for High Park." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Question of the Minister of Health, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "When is he going to resign?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "In view of the minister’s well-known interest in preventive medicine, why has his department consistently refused to supply mumps vaccine to doctors and clinics?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "And he must have an opening line." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. F. S. Miller (Minister of Health)", "text": [ "Well, as a matter of fact, I’ve been investigating a triple vaccine, just to show the member that I know there is one." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "That’s a relief." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "I sometimes wonder if the hon. member is more interested in questions than in answers." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "What does the minister think?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)", "text": [ "He gets so few answers." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "The question of vaccines is being considered at this very moment by the ministry, as to which ones should or should not be issued at the government’s cost to various clinics in the province. I have it under consideration." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "As a supplementary, if I may: Inasmuch as all other vaccines are now being issued free -- all other routine vaccines, such as measles, smallpox, diphtheria, polio and the rest -- why has mumps vaccine been singled out as not to be given?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "I can’t answer that specifically. As I say, I know that we were offered a single vaccine that incorporated three different treatments -- the NMR vaccine -- which we thought would have certain cost-benefit factors when we allowed for the medical cost of injecting the vaccine. It was about three months ago that we started studying this, and I hope to have an answer on it very shortly. I understand the group within the ministry has just about finished its calculations and is about to make a recommendation to us." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Welland South is next." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Solicitor General. I’m sure the minister is well aware of the high cost of policing services in the regional municipality of Niagara and in other communities throughout Ontario. What progress has been made through his ministry in negotiating an agreement with the federal government to provide financial assistance on a cost-sharing formula similar to other provinces throughout the Dominion of Canada? I believe that under the cost-sharing formula, 48 per cent is picked up by the federal government. What progress is being made by the ministry now?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. G. A. Kerr (Solicitor General)", "text": [ "I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, I didn’t hear the first part of the question. Is the member talking about police or policing? I am sorry." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "The cost of policing in the regional municipality of Niagara and in other areas and communities throughout Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "No, Mr. Speaker, there have been no discussions with the federal government directly in respect to regional police or municipal policing.", "As the member knows, Ontario has a provincial police force, as has Quebec, while the other provinces have the RCMP. We have attempted to have some sort of consideration given to Ontario for the fact that we provide our own provincial police. Quebec, particularly, took the lead in attempting to obtain some compensation in that regard and were turned down. However, as far as direct subsidy from Ottawa for policing in a municipality is concerned there has been no discussion on that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Sandwich-Riverside." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. F. A. Burr (Sandwich-Riverside)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Energy, of which he has had prior notice. Is the minister aware of the wind energy seminar to be held in May at the University of Sherbrooke?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. D. McKeough (Minister of Energy)", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Speaker, because the hon. member was good enough to write me about it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Burr", "text": [ "Is the minister going to send observers to this seminar?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "The conference, I think, for the benefit of the House, concerns wind energy." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "The minister ought to know about that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. J. Bounsall (Windsor West)", "text": [ "At least the conference is concerned with energy." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. T. P. Reid (Rainy River)", "text": [ "Is the minister the guest speaker?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)", "text": [ "Is the minister going to give a demonstration?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "The ministry has not yet made a determination as to whether we will send observers to that conference, nor will we make such a determination lightly. I’m sure the Management Board will have to be consulted." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "Is the Management Board interested in energy? Lots of wind there!" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "I’m sure that because it’s out of the province we will be consulting with the Premier, but when we make a decision we will certainly inform the members --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Rainy River." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker; I have a question of the Minister of Labour. Can the minister indicate the exact date that the report of his commission investigating the problems in the hospitals and with hospital employees will be brought down? Will it be available before -- I believe it’s May 1 when the hospital workers have threatened, at least in Toronto I believe, to go out on strike?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Speaker, several weeks ago I appointed a commission of inquiry to look into the remuneration of employees, particularly in the service industries, in hospitals. I met with this commission myself a few weeks ago; we have done some work at the ministry level." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "That is a delaying tactic." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "I see that they are now inviting submissions by persons or organizations interested in making a presentation to the commission. Now as you know, Mr. Speaker, the scope of this inquiry -- the magnitude of it -- is fairly large. I must admit I do not expect a report before May 1, although the commission has been told to proceed as quickly as possible." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, if I may: Does the minister not agree that the whole problem crystallizes itself into the fact that hospital workers are underpaid as compared to people in similar occupations outside of the hospitals --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Oh, that is what the problem is!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "That these people are being exploited and that the ceilings imposed by this government on hospitals are, in fact, one of the reasons why these people are so poorly paid? And does the minister not feel it incumbent upon himself to provide some guidelines so that these people can be paid a fair wage?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, that is exactly the purpose of the commission, of course; to give guidelines to both parties when the time comes for negotiations.", "I must stress the fact that last year there were awards which were above -- and as a matter of fact far above -- the ceilings during the course of the year." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A supplementary: Does the minister realize that the Province of New Brunswick has just now granted a $125 wage increase as a cost of living allowance to hospital workers in the middle of existing contracts because of the rise of the cost of living?", "Does the minister realize that the Province of British Columbia just negotiated a province-wide contract giving $1 to $1.50 more per worker, per job, than is received in the Province of Ontario?", "Doesn’t the minister think he has an obligation, moral, political and otherwise, to say to his cabinet colleagues: “Get off the backs of the hospital workers in Ontario and pay them a legitimate wage”; in advance of any strike order?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, we have never been on the backs of the hospital workers." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The government certainly has. It is a shocking position they take, the government and its commissions. The hospital workers are 20 per cent behind the other public sectors." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "That’s the reason the commission of inquiry was appointed by me." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "What does the minister need a commission of inquiry for? What does he need it for?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "When it is self-evident." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, as a matter of fact my hon. friend will recall that both the former Minister of Health and myself have recognized the fact that hospital workers were underpaid." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "What is the government going to do about it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "That’s the reason for the appointment of the commission -- hopefully they’ll provide the guidelines." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)", "text": [ "Give them bargaining rights and the minister won’t have to be so paternalistic." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Who needs a commission? What use are they?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "The facts are self-evident." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The minister knows the difference. Why doesn’t he rescind the Act and raise the ceilings?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well that business about raising it above the ceilings last year -- they need 40 per cent to become aligned." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order. The Minister of Revenue has the answer to a question asked previously. The hon. the Minister of Revenue." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. A. K. Meen (Minister of Revenue)", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "I was asked a question by the member for St. George (Mrs. Campbell) on Tuesday, March 12, as to why my ministry was not issuing assessment notices this year to the citizens of this province, except in special cases and for new construction.", "I would advise the hon. member that on Oct. 18, 1973, the former Minister of Revenue (Mr. Grossman) read a statement to this House which included a commitment to return new and updated assessment rolls to every assessed person in all municipalities in Ontario in 1974 for 1975 taxes and for each year thereafter. As a result, every assessed person will receive an assessment notice in 1974 and each year thereafter.", "Mr. Speaker, I was also asked a supplementary question by the hon. member for St. George about a successful appeal by the owner of a condominium apartment in her riding. The owners of the condominiums at 40 Homewood have very recently written to the assessment division of my ministry with respect to the appeal that was made and the court decision that reduced the assessment of one of the owners of the condominium. The remaining owners want to know whether or not this decision affects them.", "The matter is presently being investigated by the assessment commission, and while in previous property cases the reduction in assessment by the court only accrues to a person who has successfully conducted such an appeal and not to anyone else, there may be a difference in the case of a number of substantially identical condominiums. My legal officials will be looking into this matter." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Windsor West is next." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "I have a question of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations, Mr. Speaker. Has he commenced, and if not will he commence, an investigation into or initiate legal action against Dominion Stores, which on Thursday of last week in Toronto deliberately and falsely mislabelled lettuce as being United Farm Workers lettuce; a fact discovered by three Toronto clergymen?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. T. Clement (Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, we have no jurisdiction on misleading advertising; that would come under the federal Combines Investigation Act." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "Use your head." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Nineteen cents a head." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "I am not aware whether there has been a charge laid or not relating to that particular situation. I know there are some 280 charges outstanding now, initiated by the federal authorities, dealing with similar situations." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, by way of a supplementary question, isn’t the minister aware that there is a section of the Consumer Protection Act of the Province of Ontario dealing with misleading advertising?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Of course, it is specific." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Yes, I am aware of that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "It has never been used but it still exists." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Yes, I am well aware that exists. But we are of the opinion it doesn’t apply to people in this particular instance, that it applies to itinerant salesmen." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Just a certain kind of misleading advertising." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Just a moment, what was that? The ministry has a section under the Consumer Protection Act which, if I recall, explicitly sets out areas where complaints can be laid against misleading advertising or merchandising practices. There are penalties applied.", "There is no reference to itinerant salesmen or merchandising of any kind. It is to protect the consumer in Ontario. And the minister is saying that would have no application, either to the case at Dominion Stores, or for instance to the increase in prices in the course of one day at A & P last weekend? None of that would apply?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "I am advised by my law officers that is correct." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Is the minister going to change it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Yes sir!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The time for oral questions has now expired.", "Petitions.", "Presenting reports.", "Mr. Henderson, from the select committee on land drainage, presented a report which was read as follows and adopted:", "“Your committee recommends that it be authorized to sit concurrently with the House on Tuesdays between the hours of 3 o’clock, p.m., and 5 o’clock, p.m., for the purpose of considering its final report.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "That just cost us $10,000 a word." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Who will pay for this report?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "A report of 13 pages." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur)", "text": [ "Is that the entire report -- 13 pages?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "That’s not much of a report.", "Mr. Carruthers presented the final report of the select committee on motorized snow vehicles and all-terrain vehicles." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. A. Carruthers (Durham)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, additional copies of this report will be available as soon as they are received from the printers." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Motions.", "Introduction of bills." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this bill is to provide a uniform interpretation of the deeds of property bounded by navigable water so that the high-water mark shall be deemed to be the boundary of riparian owned lands and so that certain rights shall still be reserved to the Crown." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "May I have the permission of the House to revert to reports? One of the hon. ministers forgot to present a report or was not here." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "It depends on the minister." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Do I have the unanimous consent of the House? The hon. Attorney General.", "Hon. Mr. Welch presented the sixth annual report of the Ontario Legal Aid Plan for the year ended March 31, 1973." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Orders of the day." ] }, { "speaker": "Clerk of the House", "text": [ "The first order, resuming the adjourned debate on the amendment to the amendment to the motion for an address in reply to the speech of the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor at the opening of the session." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. M. Gaunt (Huron-Bruce)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, this speech has had a rather long gestation period. I had intended to speak before the recess on at least three different occasions, but because my long-winded friend from Ottawa Centre was as long-winded as I intend to be today, I didn’t quite make it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. D. Kennedy (Peel South)", "text": [ "There couldn’t be two." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur)", "text": [ "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)", "text": [ "On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I haven’t said a word in this debate yet. The member is well in advance of himself." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gaunt", "text": [ "I’m sorry, Mr. Speaker. I didn’t intend to be unduly provocative." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)", "text": [ "Oh, go ahead." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gaunt", "text": [ "I was just anticipating my friend, based on his past performances, and I thought it likely that he would give one of his extended presentations again.", "In any case, it is a pleasure for me to participate in this debate. I really don’t want to say very much about the Throne Speech; actually there isn’t much to talk about in regard to the Throne Speech. I think the lack of government initiatives in regard to that particular speech, particularly in some very vital areas including housing, inflation, agriculture, land-use planning, and so on, indicate that really it was a tired old song by a tired old government." ] }, { "speaker": "Some hon. members", "text": [ "Right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gaunt", "text": [ "I should perhaps make some mention about the cabinet changes that took place. I was very interested to see the changes. Actually, I noticed one press report in which the Premier had billed the cabinet changes as an effort on his part to bring new blood into the cabinet and to add some youth and vigour. I noticed that there were some cabinet ministers who were 53, and they were replaced by cabinet ministers who were 50, and I couldn’t quite understand how that was going to result in a new and vigorous cabinet.", "In any case, I want to congratulate all of those people who were appointed to the cabinet, the new parliamentary assistants, and of course I want to pay tribute to you, Mr. Speaker, for your fairness and your patience in what has to be a most difficult job -- certainly it is the most difficult on many occasions, I am sure.", "The main burden of what I have to say today centres on Ontario Hydro -- the power line corridor from Bruce generating station to Bradley junction, from Bradley junction to Wingham, and thence to Seaforth, and from Bradley junction to Georgetown. This last leg of the corridor is now under study and public meetings are being held -- I rather believe that they are just about concluded -- to get input from farmers as to where the lines should be located. The hearings of necessity under the Expropriations Act for the other legs of the corridor were completed as of two weeks ago.", "In this past series of meetings, and for at least the past year, it has been painfully obvious that Hydro has lost the complete confidence of the farmers and the property owners with whom it is trying to deal." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gaunt", "text": [ "I want to study this situation for a moment, Mr. Speaker, because I pose the question: What has happened; what has gone wrong? One only has to listen to the comments and understand the tactics that have been used to appreciate the depth of feeling and bitterness that radiates from these meetings. Hydro is charged with misrepresentation and with playing one farmer against another to get a price advantage, of leaving scars which will never be healed and of not having accurate information. Indeed, on that point. Hydro’s soil maps have been inaccurate, its corridor maps have mistakes in them, and its impact study for Wallace township was almost totally useless.", "They showed the power line would have a low impact in that particular township even though the township contains 99.7 per cent class 1 and 2 land. Hydro came into the hearings of necessity on the first day. They said, “We told you all along that we wanted 540 ft right of way from Bradley junction to Wingham. But now we’ve decided, because the farmers don’t want us to take so much land, that we need only 490 ft.” Why the sudden change?", "Needless to say, it threw that hearing into a morning of chaos. If Hydro had been sincere, that change could have been made at least six months ago because Hydro knew for at least a year that the landowners were opposing the land acquisition. They knew that. Hydro undoubtedly thought it would be the sugar topping to make the hearings go smoothly. It had the reverse effect.", "Is it any wonder that when Hydro called a public meeting in the Howick Central School for Feb. 27, the meeting lasted more than five hours -- three hours after Hydro officials had tried to adjourn the meeting. Hydro officials were told that farmers did not trust their negotiating methods. Every tactic in the book had been used, they said -- negotiating with the threat of expropriation, and taking pieces of paper and writing offers on them with no date, no signature, no letterhead, just a few figures on them. I have a few examples here.", "If you can tell me, Mr. Speaker, that those types of officers indicate a good business procedure on the part of a corporation like Ontario Hydro -- it’s now a Crown corporation -- I must be mistaken. On a plain piece of paper, foolscap paper, it says without prejudice”; the name of the person; Hydro requirements; the amount of land needed; and the price per acre. It’s totalled up at the bottom and the price at the bottom is divided by the number of acres to get the cost per acre. There is no letterhead, no signature." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Is it written in pencil?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gaunt", "text": [ "That one is written in ink. This one is written in pencil." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A dull pencil." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. Haggerty (Welland South)", "text": [ "What’s the matter?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gaunt", "text": [ "I can’t understand what possesses Hydro to deal with land owners in this fashion. How unprofessional can one get? It’s a shameful exhibition for a public corporation, the third largest power producer in the world.", "Hydro has offered $175 per acre to a farmer; then gone right across the road and offered another farmer $300 per acre simply because the first farmer was an old age pensioner and looked an easy mark to the buyer. There is no other explanation.", "This entire display by Hydro on this power line has been nothing short of scandalous. It has been a fiasco from beginning to end. People have no quarrel with the local Hydro officials; it’s head office. Every time someone from head office comes up, it seems it ends up in an entire fiasco. It’s a comedy of errors from beginning to end.", "It seems that every time someone leaves 620 University Ave. their new-found freedom goes to their head and they take leave of their senses. There is certainly no other explanation for their unusual behaviour. Is it any wonder that Hydro officials were told their public meetings were ridiculous? One farmer said this travelling road show should be halted until Hydro had the information that people were seeking.", "I don’t really enjoy making a speech like this, Mr. Speaker, but I think these things have to be said. What Hydro has been doing and the tactics it has been using in negotiating have been wrong -- dead wrong. It is about time Hydro cleaned up its act. When these things were cited to Hydro officials they would always deny it; then the same thing would happen the very next day.", "It’s interesting, Mr. Speaker, that apparently these things have not only been going on in our area, in my riding, they have been going on elsewhere as well. I received this morning a letter from a lady at Hagersville. She had had word that I had some interest in the matters related to Hydro and its land acquisition policies and so on, so she undertook to write to me to cite a few of the things that she and her husband had encountered with respect to Ontario Hydro and Hydro’s desire to purchase property from these people for a hydro power line.", "She talks about how they dealt with them; how unfairly Hydro dealt with them. She says: “We had 150 acres. Hydro towers will go across the back of the farm halfway and then take off one side of the farm on a slant. We keep at least 50 beef cattle all the time and the 43 acres Hydro has taken will certainly curtail our beef operation.” She goes on to say a little later: “Land is one commodity that cannot be substituted. They keep mentioning that agricultural land is so important and vital to our nation so how is it that the Ontario government and Hydro can walk in, take our land by expropriation, and pay mere farmers just what they want to, while they give developers, no doubt, what they ask?”", "In that connection, as she has cited earlier in her letter, these people were offered $600 an acre. Right across the road there was land which was set aside apparently for development -- it was owned by a developer -- and Hydro gave the developer $2,000 an acre. She is complaining that their land was just as valuable to them as the land was to the developer. I simply say, Mr. Speaker, that Hydro has certainly dealt most unfairly with the farmers in my area.", "All of these things, I suppose, are never without their lighter moments, and we have had a number of lighter moments with respect to the dealings of Ontario Hydro in our area. I cite to you one which is somewhat amusing but indicates the point, I think, that I am trying to make.", "A Hydro buyer approached a farmer and, for some reason or other, he thought he was talking to his neighbour. The Hydro official proceeded to tell the farmer what a good price he was being offered for his land and how much better it was than what his neighbour was getting. After the farmer listened to this for some time, he finally said: “Well, you know, I’ll have to tell you that I am the one who is getting the lower price.” That actually happened, Mr. Speaker. I can get an affidavit to that effect.", "I simply say to you that this certainly is not the way to instill trust, it is not the way to conduct good faith bargaining. The tragedy of it all is that it could have been avoided. If Hydro had dealt with the farmers in a forthright, honest way and offered them $500 or $600 an acre for their land at the start -- it will have to be considerably higher now -- most of the land would have been purchased, I venture; perhaps even 90 per cent of it would have been purchased and nothing could have been done about changing the alignment of that route.", "The hearings of public necessity may not have been necessary and the entire atmosphere and attitude toward Ontario Hydro would have been different. Instead, Hydro started on a path of deception early on, and it has done nothing but breed contempt and disdain. This is evident from a letter which was written by the then Minister of the Environment (Mr. Auld) to Gordon Hill, president of the OFA, in response to a letter Mr. Hill had sent asking for a full independent environmental assessment on the line from Douglas Point to Seaforth.", "This letter to Mr. Hill is dated March 15, 1973, and in it the hon. minister indicates, as one of the major reasons for refusing such a study, the fact that about half the properties had been already acquired. I will just read that paragraph to you: “Hydro generally endeavours to satisfy as much as possible the preferences of land owners, and I understand that agreements have already been reached on about half the properties.”", "That statement, Mr. Speaker, is simply not true. Undoubtedly that information came from Hydro to the minister, and the minister was relying on Hydro to give accurate information to Mr. Hill and to provide him with accurate facts on the situation. Hydro certainly did not give the minister accurate information.", "One year later, March 12, 1974, only one third of the land owners have reached agreement. Yet a year ago Hydro was telling the minister that about half the land owners had reached agreement with respect to acquisition for the power line.", "Hydro was censured on the report on the head office building for doing exactly the same thing in regard to supplying the minister with misleading and inaccurate information, which he in turn supplied to the House in relation to Hydro’s contract with Canada Square.", "Learning seems to be difficult for Hydro. I can’t understand how that organization can be so brilliant in some fields and so obtuse in others. However, I want to deal with the central issue in this controversy, the matter of Hydro corridors slashing through prime agricultural lands when other alternatives through poorer farm land are available to them.", "Three continents -- North America, Europe and Australia -- export more food than they import. Asia, Africa and South America import more food than they export. However, this situation is changing very rapidly. There are a number of reasons why it’s changing. One of the reasons for this change is the fact that prime agricultural land is being gobbled up for development, whether it be for industry, housing, highways or power corridors.", "In this province we are losing 26 acres of prime agricultural land per hour to development. In the last three years, Ontario has lost over 683,000 acres of prime land. This represents about 1,626,857 tons of corn. If this is not stopped, Ontario will not have any prime agricultural land left 50 years from now. Ponder the implications of that for someone shopping in the supermarkets. It’s startling. The downturn in our food production has already started.", "In 1973, we imported 62.6 million pounds of butter into Canada, most of which came from New Zealand and Australia. In our own province, the consumption of fluid milk increased by 1.6 per cent. Production was down from the previous year by five per cent, which meant we had a shortfall of 6.6 per cent in fluid milk production last year in the Province of Ontario.", "To be sure, we have an energy crisis. However, we have our priorities in the wrong order. The No. 1 priority is not the energy crisis, it’s the potential food crisis. And if we don’t take steps to preserve our top agricultural land immediately, it will become our No. 1 problem. If we don’t do something about this now, we will have people starving on this continent within five years.", "That’s not an hysterical comment, that’s a distinct possibility. People won’t be able to get food, not because the price is too high, but because it won’t be available at any price. Ultimate development of the world and Canada will depend on how much food, not on how much energy we have.", "If food -- the most important ingredient in human survival -- is to be available, the producer must be encouraged to farm the land that produces this food. Farmers must be allowed to do so without interference. We in Canada have never contemplated the possibility of going hungry. Let me tell you why it is a possibility, and I call upon a number of experts to alert us as to the danger signals which are now on the horizon.", "Raymond Ewell, professor of chemical engineering at the State University of New York in Buffalo and a recognized expert on fertilizer production, has recently returned from Asia. His observations are pertinent. He indicated that India used about 3.5 million tons of chemical nutrients in 1973. This year she will have to make do with 2.5 million tons. This will reduce India’s grain harvest by some 10 million tons, a tenth of last year’s total.", "The US Department of Agriculture estimates a shortage of more than a million tons of fertilizer this year. There are some conflicting reports on that, but the best and the latest information apparently is that they are going to have a shortage of approximately a million tons this year.", "The oil crisis is the immediate reason for difficulties in fertilizer production. Demand for more food has always been met by expanding cropland. Now, the arable land has just about run out. There is certainly no more worthwhile acreage available in the most densely-populated areas of the world. So an increase in our food supply has to come from more intensive cultivation of the available land. This is where fertilizer comes in.", "Figures on fertilizer usage are certainly revealing. In 1945 American corn growers used about 7 lbs of nitrogen, the most important fertilizer element, per acre. In 1970 they were using 112 lbs -- sixteen times as much. Large amounts of fertilizer are necessary for intensive cropping. Yet the energy crisis is a major dislocating factor because it takes energy in large amounts to make nitrogen fertilizer. It comes from ammonia, which in turn is made from a hydrocarbon, usually gas or oil. It takes a ton of oil to make a ton of ammonia, which converts to two to three tons of fertilizer, depending on the type.", "The principal raw material of modern US and Canadian agriculture is fossil fuel. The recent shortages in the Middle East oil situation have had an immediate effect on fertilizer production. Japan, which has been the largest exporter of nitrogen, is said to have cut shipments by about 30 per cent, to the distress of China, India and Indonesia.", "Zooming energy prices will have a permanent impact on fertilizer economics. The statement made by the Minister of Energy (Mr. McKeough) before the Easter break in relation to energy and the pricing of oil certainly mentioned this fact. I was interested to learn just a few days ago of a big fertilizer plant which is going to be built out in Alberta. That’s certainly going to help our situation here; but even with that, it all depends on the oil and gas that we have available in order to make the fertilizer.", "Eighteen months ago urea, a nitrogen nutrient, was selling for $50 a ton. In some places in the world it has recently sold for as high as $225 a ton. Prof. Ewell feels the Indians should be using at least 10 million tons of fertilizer, because they now have the seed, the land and the water. Ewell concludes by saying: “The present world-wide shortage of fertilizer will continue indefinitely, at least for the next five years and probably for the rest of human history.” There is no doubt that expanding world population is straining the limits of land and agricultural technology. The world population presently stands at close to four billion people. By the year 2000 world population is projected to be close to seven billion people. That is close to an 80 per cent increase. And, incidentally, Mr. Speaker, that’s down from the projections of a few years ago.", "Can we increase our food production by 80 per cent in the same period? Maybe, just maybe, we can. But we can’t if we put asphalt and concrete on all our best land. We must preserve that land if we want to be fed. Dr. Norman Borlaug, 1970 winner of the Nobel prize for peace said civilization as it is known today could not have evolved, nor could it survive, without adequate food supply. Yet food seems to have been taken for granted by most of the world leaders today.", "Canada’s Maurice Strong, of the United Nations Environmental Secretariat, warned us about misuse of our heritage. His report says: “A global picture of food scarcity is now emerging with disquieting implications both for hungry people and for world political stability. We have no safety margins left. Another international crop failure like that of 1972 or the recurrence of a dust bowl like that of 1932 in the US could now, with scant reserves, trigger major regional disaster.”", "I also came across an article in one of the farm magazines; and it quotes a person whom I would consider to be somewhat of an expert in this regard, an agriclimatologist by the name of G. D. Williams. He’s with the Canada Department of Agriculture’s Chemistry and Biology Research Institute in Ottawa. He says:", "“Farm land is already scarce in areas with the best growing climates. Farm land, like oil, is not in limitless supply. People should not rely on the false security they might feel when looking at vast unpopulated expanses dominating the map of Canada. Only one-twentieth of the country consists of improved farmland and a minuscule two per cent of that small amount is blessed with excellent rainfall and temperatures.", "“Although Canada has twice as much farmland per person as the United States our climate makes Canadian land only half as productive on the average as that in the United States. Instead of increasing to meet growing food demand, the land suitable for farming in the climatically-favoured parts of Canada is actually decreasing at the rate of about 100 acres per thousand person increase in the urban population.”", "Mr. Williams estimates that about 400,000 of Canada’s 160 million acres of farmland are covered by urban development every 10 years. He says: “Unfortunately, those 400,000 acres tend to come from areas most climatically suitable for farming. Nearly half of the farmland losses to urban encroachment in Canada is coming from the best one twentieth of our farmland. This is a serious problem, if not a crisis, and it is cause for concern and, perhaps, alarm.”", "I’ve called upon a few experts; it’s not only my view, Mr. Speaker. I think, with the knowledge that these men have in international affairs and as serious students of the situation, their words are well worth noting. Anyone who says we’ve all kinds of good farmland left in this country or in the United States isn’t very astute or isn’t a very serious student of what is happening on the world scene today with respect to food production.", "I noticed an article also in the Farm and Country over the weekend in which one of the experts was indicating that as far as climatic conditions are concerned our climates are changing because the atmospheric circulation is changing and it’s affecting our rainfall. It’s affecting our rainfall in areas of good farmland. It follows from that, of course, Mr. Speaker, that it is affecting the rainfall in areas of high food production. That’s another implication that’s easy to draw because if our climates are changing, and if we have a poor crop this year, next year, the year following, we’re going to be in real trouble from a world food standpoint.", "These are matters which Ontario Hydro does not seem to understand and appreciate. Agriculture has a low priority on its scale of values. The Sibbald study, a private report done for the affected Bruce and Huron farmers, indicates that in this corridor of 68 miles, for every 900 ft width, farmers will be losing approximately 108 acres. For every mile of 540 ft width approximately 80 acres will be lost.", "The present Hydro alignment from Bruce GS to Bradley junction, to Wingham to Seaforth, chops through about 80 per cent of class 1 and 2 agricultural land. The conceptual alignment proposed by the Huron-Bruce power negotiating committee would utilize about half the class 1 and 2 land or about 40 per cent. But Hydro’s argument is that this route would increase its costs of constructing the line. Further, the Huron-Bruce proposition is based solely on soil capability.", "That’s true. There’s no question that the Huron-Bruce proposition is based on soil capability but it’s a very important consideration and one which Hydro hasn’t properly recognized.", "When it comes to the Bradley junction-Georgetown route, Hydro is going through some of the best agricultural land in the townships of Tumberry, Howick and Wallace. Wallace township alone has 99.7 per cent class 1 and 2 land. In Howick township, the line is cutting across some excellent cornland. It is chopping up farms, some of them operated by young people who basically are just getting started. Interestingly enough, a survey was done in Howick township on the age of the farmers in that particular location. There are 15 over the age of 40, 37 between the ages of 35 and 40, and 26 under 35 years of age. It is obvious that these farmers have a great stake in the future of their land because they are going to be around for some time.", "If a farmer is operating a 100-acre farm, and Hydro comes along and takes 10 acres, it is obviously going to have a very serious effect on his operation. This is what is happening. Yet Hydro says there is no problem, that it will license the land back to the farmer for a nominal fee so that he can work between the towers, and the only land that will be lost will be the land on which the towers are sitting. This at first blush sounds good. The sad part of it is that it isn’t.", "This is forcefully underlined in the study Bruce Hewlett did for the Solandt commission on the power line between Middleport and Pickering. Part of that study addressed itself to the impact of powerlines on agricultural land. It is found in appendix 1 of the report and is entitled, “Concerns expressed regarding impact of transmission corridors on prime agricultural lands.” I want to read some of the more pertinent points made by Mr. Hewlett in this connection because I think it bears directly on what I am talking about.", "Hewlett says, and I’ll quote the entire report, or most of it, here: “Towers to support the 500,000-volt lines at present being considered by the Solandt commission will be over 100 ft high, necessitating broad-based areas. From three to five of these towers will stand abreast in the corridors, but will be separated enough to allow service helicopters to land between them. Obviously farmers who rent the corridor back from Hydro will have great difficulty in cultivating, sowing or harvesting areas around and between the towers in each group. Such areas will not only involve non-productive land for which rentals will be paid, but will create weed problems causing additional costs.”", "If I may just interject a point, Mr. Speaker, when we are talking about reducing or increasing costs and reducing efficiency, it is interesting to note that at the Wingham hearings of necessity the farmers there made the point that, if these power lines reduce their efficiency and increase their costs by 10 per cent, that means that their profit has disappeared. I think for any farmer trying to make a living today producing food that that has a serious implication. To continue with what Mr. Hewlett says:", "“In spite of the plan to service by helicopter, Hydro reserves the right to use the corridor for trucks to transport materials and men for special services to tower lines. It is clear that major damage to crops will occur when such services are carried out.", "“Farming operations between and around the towers will be slower and time-consuming. In any period of limited good weather and good soil conditions, such wasted time could be costly. Any farmer who has experienced the frustration and loss caused during seeding or harvest by a delay which prevented him from finishing his operation in time to avoid a week or more bad weather or wet soil will appreciate what such time loss can mean.", "“The farmer who rents back the corridor and who uses high powered tractor equipment will need to exercise great care if he attempts to operate such equipment close to the towers. He will be responsible for any damage done to them, and any such damage caused by a heavy farm tractor could be of a serious and costly nature. Turning too short and not allowing space enough for the implements, especially if more implements than one are being drawn at the time, have been the cause of such accidents. The only way to minimize the farm problems caused would be to place it, that is the corridor, in the centre of a concession along the rear of farm properties. Here the lines would be as distant as possible from farm dwellings since these are usually located near the roads. There is no question that huge towers in a broad corridor cutting a farm diagonally in two sections would seriously depreciate its value both now and in the future.", "“Hydro’s payment for the land would be in terms of land values today. If the trend toward higher land values continues, such payments would be far below the value of the land a few years hence.", "“Farm producers are currently meeting many difficulties through high costs of operation and narrow profit margins caused by fluctuating sale prices. Further complications caused by land loss to hydro corridors may well be sufficient to prevent some farms from being operated.", "“When consideration is given to the rate at which Ontario’s limited farming land is disappearing from agricultural use, the risk of further loss occasioned by hydro lines being routed through areas specifically designated for future farming is a serious one.", "“Surveys of citizen opinion to find out what environmental impact by power line corridors is least acceptable, usually reveal large numbers of people concerned over lines going through wooded areas of countryside. Many of these people do not live in the areas under consideration but are organized through membership in conservation groups, naturalist associations and Sierra clubs. They are reached through mailing lists and so can voice their opinions in overwhelming numbers.", "“Worthy as their objectives are in connection with such aspects of the environment as woods, streams and wildlife, they frequently display a remarkable lack of concern over farmlands and the operations which provide our food. This lack of concern frequently arises from ignorance of farm activities, which is understandable since many members of conservation groups are urban dwellers.", "“The emphasis provided by such people, through their numbers and their legal representatives, tends to outweigh that from farm people, who usually are widely scattered, relatively small in number by the very nature of large farmland areas, and often not as efficiently organized -- and I may add effectively organized -- to make their wishes known in a concerted fashion.", "“The choice for hydro corridors frequently is to go through either wooded regions or farming districts. Surveys of public opinion obviously place the farm voice in an unfavourable position in deciding the choice. Yet farmers are the people whose livelihood is directly and adversely affected by hydro lines passing through their farms, while many active conservationists live in urban areas that are in no way affected by the corridors.”", "Then finally, as far as Howlett is concerned, I just wanted to refer to a letter from Mr. Herb Grown, who is the director of the ARDA branch here in the Ministry of Agriculture and Food. Part of Mr. Crown’s letter says: “There is a very limited supply of class 1 and class 2 agricultural land in this province, and with the many demands that are being placed for non-agricultural use on this land -- such as residential, industrial development, transportation corridors, energy corridors, and recreation areas -- this ministry of the government is greatly concerned that there be minimal intrusion made on this high-quality agricultural land for nonfarm purposes. We recognize that this hydro line must be built. Our recommendation is that it be located through low agricultural-productive lands.”", "That letter, incidentally, was dated March 8, 1973, So I think a good case, Mr. Speaker, can be made for routing these hydro power lines through poor agricultural land. I’m sure the Minister of the Environment (Mr. W. Newman) can appreciate this particular point, being a farmer himself and being one who is interested in farmers and food production.", "The report of the hearing officer, Mr. Craig from Owen Sound, will come directly to the Minister of the Environment. My hope would be that, without prejudging what the report is going to say -- because I have no idea what it is going to say -- but without prejudging it, I would hope that the minister -- and I am going to talk to him about this -- would suggest, along with the Minister of Energy, that Ontario Hydro take another look at this entire line.", "If these ministers don’t want to bear the full burden of assuming the responsibility for having Hydro review the situation, then I suggest that perhaps the only other alternative is to come up with a feasibility study on the entire line to see if that is the proper route for that line, in view of what I have been talking about.", "This is really where I criticize Hydro severely. They really have no intimate knowledge of agricultural matters. They hired a conservationist not too long ago to advise them with respect to rural lands and rural areas when they were deciding the routing of these power lines; but they really have no expertise in agricultural matters -- none. And this is pretty obvious when you get them out to a farm meeting. They don’t understand; they don’t appreciate.", "Frankly, I think Ontario Hydro should be setting up an agricultural department; they should be setting up a department with people who are fully conversant with agriculture. It needn’t be large. I am not suggesting that Hydro increase its present great numbers of staff to any extent. I am not suggesting that at all. But I think that it wouldn’t hurt -- indeed, it is vital -- for Hydro to have some expertise with respect to agriculture, and they certainly haven’t got it now. Two, three or four people would do it; that’s all they need. And I suggest they had better do it very quickly.", "All of these points -- the points that I have been talking about with respect to agricultural land and the need for saving it -- apply to the Bruce-to-Georgetown and the Bruce-to-Seaforth power corridors.", "This is really an aside, but I think that the Food Prices Review Board and Mrs. Plumptre’s posse up in Ottawa would be much better employed if they decided to do a study on what the loss of good agricultural land is doing to food prices, rather than going around nipping at the heels of the various marketing boards, which really isn’t a very effective exercise. It certainly is not, in my view, the way to locate the culprit in the food pricing system.", "I think that such a study should be done and I believe that this government could undertake it. I understand Mrs. Plumptre is looking for something to do, so I would think that it would be well for her group to undertake a serious study to determine the degree of impact the loss of good agricultural land has had on the price of food over the past 10 years. I think that study might be quite revealing.", "There are other matters in relation to the power line problems I would like to mention. I have talked about the loss of good agricultural land, and I have talked about the fact that these power corridors should be going through poorer land that is not suited for food production, but there are other things too that worry me with respect to these power lines.", "I noticed an article in a Detroit paper dated March 3, 1974, describing the difficulties experienced by farmers and other people in the State of Michigan who were affected by the power lines going through no, I am sorry, it is not the State of Michigan, it is Indiana -- going through the State of Indiana, around a place called North Liberty. These power lines are taking a swath about 200 yd wide, I understand, and it’s possible for a person who is walking near those power lines with a fluorescent tube in his hand to have that tube light up. And the article goes on to say that this is no sleight of hand parlour trick. “The tube glows because of ultra-high voltage electrical current passing through 12 thick strands of power transmission line strung high overhead between giant towers. Air normally is a good insulator, but its insulation properties break down beyond a certain critical voltage and electricity is discharged. The electrical field that surrounds the ultra-high voltage wires radiates for many yards in all directions around it. It is strong enough 100 yd away to light a fluorescent tube.” Now, you can imagine what the farmers in Bruce and Huron counties will be doing if they walk out some morning with a fluorescent tube and the thing happens to light up on them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman (Windsor-Walkerville)", "text": [ "Hydro hasn’t informed the people of this." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gaunt", "text": [ "That’s a problem. You know, the environmentalists say, “Well, it looks as though there may be some damage from that.” Hydro says, “No, it’s perfectly harmless.” But I’m not so sure." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Ruston (Essex-Kent)", "text": [ "The Minister of the Environment (Mr. W. Newman) is listening." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gaunt", "text": [ "There are other matters here too. These people in Indiana apparently are voicing numerous complaints. One farmer said that he gets a shock if he is riding on his tractor when he goes under the line. And he says: “You try to keep your arms insulated on a cushion.”", "Well now, Mr. Speaker, can you imagine farmers during the busy seeding time and harvest time -- you come up to the power line and you have to stop and tuck in the cushion so you won’t get a shock when you drive under the power line? Really, Mr. Speaker, I think that Hydro is glossing over these problems, because I think they are real. They have been experienced by other people and I suggest there is a danger that our people are going to be confronted with the same thing.", "People have been shocked when touching farm implements. People complain about TV reception. Here is another complaint -- the main complaint is about electrical shocks from farm equipment operated within the electrical field that surrounds the lines and even from wet weeds and grass. And the one farmer said that his cows wouldn’t go underneath the line in damp weather because they get a shock.", "So that really these are problems with which Hydro has not come to grips. They are not prepared to compensate for these things. They simply gloss over them and say: “Well, there is no problem. We’ll look after that. Our research has indicated that these things don’t happen and I don’t know why people are talking about them.” That’s basically their answer. But yet experiences in other areas have indicated otherwise.", "Hydro has assured farmers time and time again that no such ill-effects will take place. I think it’s important for me to put on the record what I consider to be an eloquent plea from a farmer faced with the prospect of having his land crossed by these Hydro towers.", "His name is Bruce Nunn. He is a Wallace township farmer and he has travelled into many parts of the province where these tower lines have gone. He calls the tower lines “a spreading cancer of rural blight.”", "I want to quote what he says in an article in the Listowel Banner. This was at a public meeting conducted by Hydro and he says: “As farmers we have only to drive down the roads that front these tower lines to see the change in the rural life habits of the people. This was not an isolated case but rather the general rule from end to end.” And just on that point, I believe that Bruce took his aeroplane and he flew these lines from one end to the other. I think he took in at least four or five.", "My friend from Perth knows Mr. Nunn and he does have a plane of his own. I believe that he flew these lines to get a perspective of what sort of changes these lines make with regard to rural communities. He goes on: “We saw empty farm houses, empty barns, the skeletons of gutter cleaners that previously dairy herds had stood in front of. We saw the signs of absentee cash croppers that moved in to acquire large acreages of frontal lands adjoining these power lines. The heartbreak that must be covered by these boarded windows and dilapidated barns can only be judged by a farmer whose livelihood comes from his farm, as well as his very reason for life.” Mr. Nunn is making the point there that these lines, in direct opposition to what Hydro is saying, are creating changes in rural life. They do affect farmers’ ability to make a livelihood and they do have an impact on the communities which they cut through.", "There is no question in my mind that the impact of these lines running across good agricultural land is substantially greater than we have been led to believe by Hydro officials. Yet Hydro is not prepared to alter its position and indeed takes every opportunity to drive a hard bargain. They are not prepared to alter their compensation and, on top of that, they often drive a very hard bargain indeed. They not only intend ripping up good agricultural land, they want to steal it into the bargain. They are not paying enough for injurious affection. They are not taking into account the hardships for the farmer and the economic impact on his operation.", "I want to indicate briefly what I feel should be done with respect to Hydro with regard to going across agricultural land. The first thing that Hydro should do is reconsider its position that its power needs will double every 10 years. I do not believe that to be so. Even Bob Macaulay doesn’t believe that to be so and he is a much more authoritative person than I when it comes to dealing with Hydro. As I recall it, he was Hydro’s counsel at $75 an hour before the Energy Board in Ottawa some while ago. I would think that he should have the ear of Hydro with respect to some of these matters.", "Hydro should be stressing conservation instead of greater consumption. Consolidated Edison in the United States had a growth rate of eight per cent. In 1973 they put on a conservation drive and they reduced consumption by 10 per cent. I am sure that Ontario Hydro could do as well or perhaps even better if they really tried.", "A complete independent assessment of the routing of these lines from Douglas Point should be undertaken immediately, because Hydro should not be going over class 1 and 2 agricultural land. As I said previously, if the Minister of the Environment and the Minister of Energy will not take a firm position with Hydro in regard to this line, then I think the other alternative is to come up with an independent assessment as to where these lines should go.", "If the government won’t do this, then I think the minister should insist that Hydro take 500 instead of 900 ft coming from Douglas Point. Five hundred feet is sufficient for the facilities presently approved and is certainly able to handle all the power capable of being produced until 1990 and even beyond. Hydro is actually land banking at today’s prices. In my strong view, they should not be allowed to do so.", "Hydro’s methods of negotiation and acquisition are severely lacking, even mediaeval. For goodness’ sake, I think Hydro has to clean up its act in this regard. I think it’s disgraceful. Surely there are enough problems without inviting them, and all they do is invite them. They go in to a farmer and say, “We are prepared to give you so much money. Take it or leave it. If you don’t want it, we’ll expropriate.” That’s the basis upon which they get started, and then it just goes on from there and gets steadily worse.", "If they would go in and ask the farmer --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. G. A. Kerr (Solicitor General)", "text": [ "They sit around the kitchen table." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Ruston", "text": [ "A good place to do it, sometimes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gaunt", "text": [ "When they sit around the kitchen table, it often means that the farmer ends up pounding the table and the Hydro negotiator is almost thrown out bodily. I think Hydro should sit down with its buyers and negotiators and come up with a uniform policy in this regard." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Ruston", "text": [ "Right. Right on." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gaunt", "text": [ "There’s no point in one buyer going out and saying, “Look, we’ll give you $500 an acre” and the farmer refuses it, then another buyer coming back a month later and saying, “Well, we’ve reconsidered. We will maybe go up to $550,” What should be done is for the buyer to go in and ask the farmer how much he wants for his land, then start from that basis. No other buyer in the world would go in and say to a farmer or a property owner, “This is what we are going to give you. Take it or leave it or we are going to expropriate it.” That would raise the hackles of anyone, and I don’t blame property owners for getting upset." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. Riddell (Huron)", "text": [ "Or trying to offer a farmer less money when they found out he had more land." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gaunt", "text": [ "That’s right. I think it’s fair to say that Hydro, in terms of this particular line, has tried just about every trick in the book in regard to purchasing land. I don’t know why they have done it. I can’t understand it, but that’s what they have done. I think it’s wrong, and I think it should be corrected. When we tell Hydro about it, they say, “Oh, we are not doing that,” but they go out and do exactly the same thing the very next day. It’s frustrating to say the least.", "There’s another point I think that should be made in regard to the easements. I got a letter from a George Adams, who is the chairman of the Turnberry-Howick corridor committee, and I think he makes a very good point in respect to these rights of way. He says:", "“Hydro should offer a third option to land owners on the Hydro right of way. This would be a lease agreement. This lease would be for as long as there are Hydro installations on the land. This lease would pay so much per year for the land that is used. The rent would be revised in stated intervals, perhaps every 10 years.", "“This would give the next land owner compensation for the installations. The way it is now, he has to buy the property at a reduced price to equivalent land values in the area or he does not receive any compensation for the installations on the land.", "“This would also keep the land in the farmers’ hands. The money received would go to help finance the operation and not to pay off the low-interest mortgages they now have.”", "Now, just on that point, when Ontario Hydro comes through, they ask for a severance; and that farmer may have a mortgage on his farm with Farm Credit or, if it’s an old one, with Junior Farmers. If it’s with Junior Farmers, anyway, it’s at five per cent, so Junior Farmers will ask for some of their loan to be paid off because their equity position has been reduced. This is what’s happening: Not only is the farmer getting a poor price for his land but he’s losing his low-interest rate financing. I think that point is very valid and hopefully, if Hydro listens to any of these remarks at all, it will consider that particular proposal." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Bullbrook (Sarnia)", "text": [ "They should be made to capitalize the income that’s lost." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gaunt", "text": [ "I want to turn now for a few moments to another matter; it’s still really dealing with Hydro but it’s another facet of what’s happening at Douglas Point. It’s a problem which confronts the town of Kincardine. This is a parochial problem but it’s nonetheless an important one and I want to raise it because I think Ontario Hydro should reconsider its rate of compensation not only to Kincardine but to the other towns affected by Douglas Point.", "Let’s take Kincardine, as an example and I’ll cite the situation in the town in 1965. The town had carried out studies in regard to its official plan and it was established that the plans and services within the town were capable of providing serviced lots for more than 25 years of normal residential growth. Specifically, the studies indicated that the population of Kincardine had been increasing very slowly in the years 1960 to 1964. The growth in that period was from 2,790 to 2,882.", "The household formation rate, while increasing more rapidly than total population, grew only from 802 units in 1951 to 915 units in 1961, an average of 10.27 per cent. On any accepted basis for projecting population growth it was unlikely that the population would reach 3,900 by the year 1990, and that a more probable 1990 level would be 3,300.", "In 1965 Kincardine had an inventory of serviced and serviceable land which was capable of meeting its needs for at least 25 years.", "Now let’s take a look at the situation in the town in 1974. The Bruce nuclear power development drastically altered all of this and the changes are apparent in the figures which I want to put on the record. In the year 1965 the dwelling starts in Kincardine were 10; in 1966 five; in 1967 seven. Then we move up to 1971 to indicate what sort of impact Douglas Point is having on Kincardine and other towns in the area -- Port Elgin, Southampton and so on. In 1971 the dwelling unit starts were 58; in 1972, 51, and in 1973 well over 100. In 1969-1970 Kincardine extended its sewer and water services to a 219-lot subdivision beyond the town limits, and at least 170 dwellings have been constructed there, bringing the total for the 1965-1973 period to 562.", "This growth, 562 dwelling units, is almost exactly double the projected growth for the 25-year period to 1990. The impact, in terms of housing demand, of just the first stage of the Bruce nuclear power development has seriously depleted the stock of serviced and serviceable lots. Even if each and every remaining serviced or serviceable lot in Kincardine was available for building, the supply would be totally exhausted by mid-1975. In point of fact, all possible lots are not available and there will be an absolute shortage of serviced building sites by mid-1974.", "The rapid depletion of Kincardine’s serviceable land reserve since 1968 reflects only the impact of the first stage of development at the Bruce nuclear power development. The impact of the doubling programme announced in June, 1973, is just now about to be felt while the effect of the redoubling announced on Jan. 17, 1974, staggers the imagination.", "If Kincardine is to replenish its supply of serviceable land to meet this anticipated demand, it must open an entirely new, serviced district.", "I’d like to cite, just for the record, the cost of doing this. To improve and enlarge its sewage treatment facilities would cost $250,000. The cost of building an outfall line from the treatment facility to deep water would be $230,000; to provide a trunk force sewer main and pumping station, $170,000; to provide increased elevated water storage capacity, $250,000; to provide increased trunk water line capacity, $116,000; to construct some arterial roads, an estimated cost of $145,000 -- for a total of $1,161,000.", "And that’s a minimum, Mr. Speaker; that’s a bare minimum. This $1,161,000 minimum cost does not include any work within new development areas. This cost is not all-inclusive. It represents only that portion of the cost for which provisions must be made before any steps can be taken to plan for development of the new areas.", "I should mention that Hydro is spreading a payment throughout the area to alleviate some of the pressures for education, housing and development generally. That payment this year will bring in to the town of Kincardine something in the neighbourhood of $7,900. When the redoubling programme was announced in January, Hydro said it would give the town of Kincardine another $250,000. Mr. Speaker, that is far short of what these requirements are going to cost, and unless Kincardine is in a financial position to undertake these projects, there is going to be a very serious housing problem indeed in that entire area.", "The problem of meeting the requirements to permit development of any new residential areas is twofold. First, there is the absolute inability of the town to finance any undertaking of this magnitude even if the Kincardine taxpayers were willing to assume an additional debt of about $1,000 per household. Secondly, before any additional lot servicing can be undertaken, several time-consuming procedures must be completed.", "The depletion since 1968 of the supply of serviceable land in Kincardine has been the direct result of Ontario Hydro and its announced expansion programme. In 1965 Kincardine was in a position to absorb its expected growth for 25 years or more without requiring substantial increases in non-residential assessment. The Bruce development changed that. It caused the town to use up 25 years’ reserve of serviceable land in just five years. Fortunately, the development of the Bruce facility has not sparked a corresponding increase in commercial and industrial development within Kincardine.", "The Bruce development is local in its impact on housing demand but it is provincial in terms of benefit. So that’s why I say, Mr. Speaker, that Ontario Hydro and the government should be in a position, and should be prepared and willing, to pay to Kincardine and to the other towns affected by the impact of Bruce, more money to allow them to develop their serviced land and to allow them to build new roads, so that we won’t have this tremendous increase in taxation at the local level, as I indicated previously, of at least $1,000 per household.", "I make that plea to Ontario Hydro and to the government in the hope that they will come up with some more money to alleviate these very pressing needs on behalf of the towns of Kincardine, Port Elgin and Southampton particularly.", "I’ll conclude my remarks, Mr. Speaker, because I have taken longer than I anticipated. These problems are important to my constituents, important to the people whom I have the privilege of representing in this House, and I thought it my duty to bring them to your attention, sir, and to the attention of the government in the hope that something can be done about them.", "In conclusion I just want to say that I hope that all members, after serious consideration, will support the amendment put forward by my leader in his reply to the Speech from the Throne. It is a reasoned amendment. It sets out the deficient areas in the Throne Speech and in the government programme. I hope that all members, after serious reflection, will decide to vote with my leader and this party on the amendment put forward by him. Thank you very much." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Sandwich-Riverside." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. F. A. Burr (Sandwich-Riverside)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, first I should like to pay my respects to you. We are all glad to have you back and to see you in such good form and in good spirits.", "I have two topics I wish to discuss today. One is in the field of health regarding the denturists, and the other is in the fields of environment and energy. I announce this in case any of those ministers wish to come in and listen to the remarks.", "On Monday, March 11, during the private members’ hour debate on the denturists, the member for Scarborough Centre (Mr. Drea), asked a very good question -- but he failed to answer it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "That is usual." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Burr", "text": [ "He asked: How can you equate the training that a dentist or a dental surgeon goes through with the training that there is for a denturist or a denture therapist?", "This drew to my attention one aspect of the controversy that has been largely overlooked: the relative training of the dentists on the one hand and of the denture makers on the other. If Alberta is any criterion, a precise answer is to be found in the January, 1974, issue of the Journal of Prosthetic Dentistry in an article by a University of Alberta faculty of dentistry professor, Dr. Allan D. Fee. On page 20, he says: “A dental student receives 600 hours of instruction in complete and removable partial prosthodontics. A dental mechanic student receives 1,334 hours of instruction in complete dentures alone. A dental student treats seven edentulous patients. A dental mechanic student makes dentures for 200 people.”", "The point is, that even before graduation a dentist’s experience in making a complete set of dentures is limited to seven patients, whereas a denture maker’s experience has reached 200 patients. After graduation, of course, very few dentists ever make another set of dentures, whereas denture makers work at the job daily.", "May I remind the member for Scarborough Centre that it is the denture maker who is the expert, not the dentist, in the making of dentures?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "Well said." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Burr", "text": [ "Some members of the Legislature may not realize that when a patient orders dentures through a dentist the set is made by a denture maker who often does not know whether the teeth are for a man or for a woman. He does not know anything about the patient’s colouring, or size or personality. Any skilled denturist can do a better job and take a greater interest in his work when he deals directly with the patient.", "When a dentist orders a set of dentures they are often made in an assembly-line type of operation. As anyone informed about dentures knows, the age, sex and physical personality can be and should be reflected in the shading, the positioning and contouring of the teeth -- yet some dentists fail to provide the dental lab with any of this pertinent information. A denture maker who meets his patient can do a far better job than he can do for a person he has never seen or heard of. That is logical. As the member for Scarborough Centre says, it is just common sense. As Dr. Fee sums up in his article: “In four of our provinces [he should have said five, Mr. Speaker] the dental mechanics have won their independence from the dental profession. They have by their own efforts raised their standards. There has not been a public outcry about poor service. There is no indication that the legislation will be rescinded. They are providing complete dentures to an increasing number of people.” The only other real point of concern is that a denture maker dealing directly with the public might fail to recognize an abnormal condition in the mouth because he lacks the training to do so. This is not a valid objection for two reasons.", "Firstly, for the past year the Ontario denturists have been insisting on certificates of oral health, signed by a medical or dental practitioner, as is the requirement in British Columbia since March 29, 1962, and in Manitoba since Nov. 1, 1972.", "Secondly, the denturists want and are eager to improve their knowledge. As a matter of fact two years ago the Ontario Denturists Society asked for a course to be given at Humber community college. On the basis of favourable discussions with government and college officials they prepared, at considerable expense, not only a course, but also the number of hours, and costs itemized to the last penny.", "When Bill 203 was introduced, revisions were made to bring the course into complete conformity with the bill. The denturists agreed that the course should be mandatory and that any denture makers who could not pass the course successfully would not be allowed to deal with the public.", "A hundred years ago the time of most dentists was spent in extracting teeth and making dentures. Dentistry has come a long way since then, with emphasis on preservation of teeth. In fact, the ideal family dentist, in my opinion, is one who spends time with his patients warning them of the various sugar-filled foods and drinks that cause tooth decay and encouraging them to avoid such items. The family dentist should consider that he has failed when he has to extract the final teeth from the patient. That would be the ideal situation.", "Furthermore, just as a doctor cannot also be an undertaker, so a dentist should have no further financial interest in a patient whose teeth he has been unsuccessful in protecting and preserving. Denture makers are to dentists what undertakers are to physicians. The sooner the spheres of activity are clearly delineated, the better for everyone concerned.", "Mr. Speaker, denturists are recognized as legal practitioners in British Columbia, Alberta, Manitoba, Nova Scotia and Quebec. Newfoundland and Saskatchewan will be following with legislation this year, it is thought.", "Although Prince Edward Island has no legislation on the subject one way or the other, there is no objection to denturists in that province.", "When will the Conservatives of Ontario become progressive, at least in the matter of false teeth?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "Never." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gaunt", "text": [ "Just in name only. That’s all." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Burr", "text": [ "My colleague suggests maybe tomorrow." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "No, never. Although we can always hope -- “hope springs eternal in the human breast.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Burr", "text": [ "On another topic, Mr. Speaker. I wish to speak on nuclear power. I intend to speak at first mostly about the type used in the American enriched uranium light water reactors rather than the Canadian reactors.", "One reason for my emphasis on the American type is that we in Essex county are immediately threatened by the presence of enriched uranium nuclear reactors in Michigan and not so much by the CANDU (Canadian Deuterium Uranium) stations at Bruce, Douglas Point and Pickering. One might say that I am taking a parochial view. Actually I am merely starting from a parochial viewpoint.", "Being downwind, Lambton and Kent counties may also feel equally threatened by the Michigan reactors, a factor that may have caused our Ontario Minister of Energy (Mr. McKeough) to criticize the American nuclear system. He says of it, and I quote him, “If a pressure vessel containing enriched uranium should crack, the results could be very serious.” In making this statement, he is merely echoing the opinions and fears of many far more knowledgeable men, many of them scientists who have worked for the United States’ Atomic Energy Commission for years.", "The nuclear establishment’s motto is “trust us.” Yet according to the AEC’s 1973 task force report, there had been 850 accidents in the previous 17 months -- an average of 50 per month or of five every three days. At any rate, one can truthfully say that, on average, the nuclear power station accident rate in the United States is daily.", "One such accident happened at the Enrico Fermi atomic power plant at Laguna Beach on Lake Erie, 30 miles south of Detroit and Windsor. This plant, costing at least $133 million, was begun in 1958 and went into test operation in August, 1963. It was to provide enough electricity for a city of 75,000 by 1964 and for a city of 150,000 by 1969.", "At the end of August, 1965, hearings were held before an AEC safety and licensing board to get permission for the plant’s operating level to go from the testing level of one thermal megawatt to the full potential of 200 megawatts. Giving testimony, Dr. Hans Bethe, a Cornell University professor of physics and a consultant on the nuclear reactor project, billed in the newspapers as an internationally known nuclear physicist, said: “I am confident that the Fermi plant can be operated safely and will give satisfactory results.”", "The board took his word. The plant did operate at full 200-megawatt capacity, but only on 26 different days and for a total of only 378 hours during its 10-year life.", "On Oct. 6, 1966, the plant was closed for nearly three years for repairs after a metal object clogged the flow of coolants and caused the nuclear substance in the reactor to melt. It is recorded that the involved executives and scientists were terrified by the threat of a catastrophe if the melted radioactive matter should reassemble in a critical mass and result in an explosion. Evacuation of Detroit was considered. However, Mr. Speaker, I can find no mention that evacuation of Windsor, La Salle, Amherstburg, Harrow, Chatham or any other Ontario community was considered.", "At the Fermi plant the automatic cutoff system apparently failed to function. Fortunately a cool-headed workman had the presence of mind to shut down the reactor manually. The Fermi plant, incidentally, was the first fast breeder reactor to be built.", "So the closing of the Enrico Fermi plant was announced on Nov. 30, 1972. The amount of electricity it had produced cost $4 a kilowatt hour, not the four mills that we had been promised. In other words, 1,000 times more than we had been promised. The plant’s nuclear core was removed and disposed of by the Atomic Energy Commission at an undisclosed location. It was announced that the 30,000 gal. of sodium coolant would be frozen and stored in stainless steel tanks enclosed in concrete vaults on the plant site.", "The nuclear establishment is undeterred by its mistakes. On May 9, 1969, the Detroit Edison Co. applied to the Atomic Energy Commission for permission to build one of the biggest atomic plants in the world, producing 1,127 megawatts of electricity, enough for a city of one million. It was scheduled to open in 1974 and it was to be built right beside the original Enrico Fermi plant, about seven miles north of Monroe, Mich., 30 miles from Detroit and Windsor and about 12 miles from Amherstburg.", "Dr. Edward Teller, the father of the atomic bomb, said of the Enrico Fermi accident in particular and of the whole nuclear programme in general, “We have been extremely lucky,” At least five United States’ nuclear plants have so malfunctioned that they have had to be abandoned. Sealing off a radioactive plant raises the problem of continued radiation seepage. United States’ plants have a life expectancy of 20 to 30 years; after that they become tombs which can never be opened, at least for thousands of years.", "At a later date I hope to discuss the economics of nuclear power in some detail but for the moment I shall record briefly the following facts.", "The United States has had nuclear plants producing electricity for many years but it was not until near the end of 1971 that the total electrical energy generated by its nuclear power plants exceeded or equalled the accumulated amount of electricity that had been used up by the enrichment plants to produce the required nuclear fuel. In other words, the whole nuclear system had used up more electric energy than it had produced until the end of 1971.", "When one takes into consideration the billions of dollars contributed by the United States taxpayers to build those plants, pay for research and development, the nuclear system was, at the end of 1971, a colossal financial disaster.", "However, there are far worse sins than ripping off the taxpayer. One of these is subjecting him to unnecessary risks to his health, his environment and his descendants’ genetic legacy -- unnecessary because of the many safe, clean, inexhaustible, feasible alternatives.", "Atomic Energy of Canada Ltd. prides itself on its low emission rate of radioactive materials and on its apparent ability to contain, so far, any radioactive releases resulting from internal accidents. Apart from pointing out that the permitted emission levels are set by man and not necessarily by nature, and that the only safe level is zero, as most people agree, I shall not question the containment capabilities of the CANDU reactors.", "What can be questioned, however, is the wisdom and morality of man creating plutonium whether for war or for peace. We must all question the wisdom and morality of building these huge nuclear bombs which we euphemistically refer to as power plants; there are about 40 of them already in the United States and four or five already in Canada.", "The Atomic Energy Commission talks of 1,000 reactors in the United States within 25 years as well as 2,500 fast breeders within about 45 years. Every one of these reactors becomes a target for saboteurs, terrorists and assorted maniacs. Every one of these becomes a potential Hiroshima bomb or even worse.", "At least four years ago I drew to the attention of the House, and especially to the then Minister of the Environment, the danger presented by nuclear power plants. My examples back in 1969 were chiefly American. The minister’s reply was that because Ontario’s CANDU reactors did not use enriched uranium, they were much safer than the American ones. This was some comfort and events have so far vindicated the minister as far as the apparently safe operation of Ontario’s nuclear power plants has been concerned.", "Unfortunately, since that time, hijacking of planes, kidnappings for ransom and kidnappings for reasons of political blackmail have become so common that many well-known and well-informed persons have become increasingly concerned about the possibility, the likelihood, perhaps even the certainty, that nuclear power plants and nuclear fuel will become part of that game now being played so frequently and so successfully by terrorists of various kinds.", "Theodore Taylor, a nuclear physicist who has made atomic bombs, is now trying to alert any politician who will listen -- in fact everybody -- to the grim probability that unauthorized persons, meaning those outside the military, will steal or hijack fissionable material and make one or more bombs. He is quoted in the Wall Street Journal of June 18, 1973, as saying: “Scientists are raising a horrendous new possibility. It is too easy for a crazed man, a revolutionary, or a criminal to make an atomic bomb. I have been worried ever since I built my first one.” Theodore Taylor’s views on this possibility are explained at great lengths, Mr. Speaker, in four issues of the New Yorker, beginning at the end of November, 1973.", "The Washington Monthly for January, 1973, contained an article entitled, “Nuclear Hijacking Now Within the Grasp of Any Bright Lunatic.” One sentence read: “Man’s blindness and vanity that suggests that he can do anything, even play with vast quantities of the most intense and long-lasting poisons, could any day lead to the biggest disaster in history.” Even at the University of Toronto, Dr. Philip Jones, chairman of the Institute of Environmental Sciences and Engineering, has within the past year referred to the possibility of nuclear hijacking. He used the same words: “Any bright lunatic could do it.”", "Dr. Jan Prawitz, of the National Research Institute of Stockholm, believes that he could produce a nuclear explosion from essentially any grade of reactor-produced plutonium that might be available. There are others who believe that plutonium produced from the uranium in the fission process may fall into the wrong hands. Their fear grows with every new nuclear plant that is announced.", "Even if all nuclear reactors operated perfectly and all the humans in charge of them made no mistakes, and even if the safe disposal of radioactive wastes for ever and ever were feasible, still the possibility of sabotage or hijacking makes the proliferation of nuclear power an act of extreme rashness. Some people have called it criminal insanity.", "So much for nuclear hijacking by terrorists. I have been asked whether anyone else has raised this possibility. The answer is that as long ago as the 1969 Los Alamos nuclear safety symposium, it was accepted that “supply-stimulated” theft would develop rapidly as more and more plutonium was created and became accessible.", "A former FBI man told that meeting that the transportation industry in the United States is riddled with Mafia members, any of whom might be interested in making deals for big money to obtain plutonium. He also foresaw deals with foreign groups.", "The matter was discussed at a recent Pugwash conference. A British nuclear physicist reported that the international security system is incapable of coping with these extra legal and extra technical problems.", "Let us consider now the safety of nuclear reactors on site and the problem of disposal of radioactive wastes after the fuel has been used. These two dangers could be treated separately but I have not had time to separate them. As many scientists are equally alarmed by the on-site danger and by the unsolved problems of successful disposal, I shall discuss them together.", "In July, 1971, the Union of Concerned Scientists, consisting of several hundred scientists in the United States, warned that the licensing of nuclear power plants with dubious emergency core cooling systems might result in “a catastrophe and loss of life exceeding anything this nation has known.”", "The first chairman of the United States Atomic Energy Commission, David Lilienthal, was reported in the New York Times of July 20, 1968, as warning that crucial problems were still unsolved. He said: “Once a bright hope shared by all mankind, including myself, the rash proliferation of atomic power plants has become one of the ugliest clouds hanging over America.” Albert Einstein said: “The splitting of the atom has changed everything, save our modes of thinking, and thus we drift toward unparalleled catastrophe.” Science magazine of Sept. 1, 8, 15 and 22, 1972, had four articles on nuclear safety. The author said that the plan for safety in one reactor “outlines 139 unsettled safety questions and designates 44 of them as very urgent key problem areas.”", "Dr. George L. Weil, the first chief of the Atomic Energy Commission’s reactor branch, said in an article entitled, “Nuclear Energy: Promises, Promises,” just two years ago: “Today’s nuclear power plant projects are too many, too large, too soon, too inefficient. In short, they offer too little for too many risks.” Philip Sporn, the former head of American Electric Power, a representative of the private sector, said several years ago (Nov. 15, 1968): “We ought to slow down. We are going to have some accidents with atomic plants.”", "We don’t want to, but we are going to. Rene Dubos and Barbara Ward, the authors of “Only One Earth,” say: “Men are not making a simple calculation of gain or convenience. They are confronting their own survival, that of their children and grandchildren and the whole race of men.” I could quote many other scientists, Mr. Speaker, and many well-informed persons on this subject, but suffice it to say that there is a movement in the United States to stop further development of nuclear plants.", "As some members may know, Sen. Mike Gravel introduced a bill on March 14, 1973, to phase out the operation of all existing civilian nuclear power plants in the United States no later than January, 1980. The shutdown would last indefinitely or until the electric utilities had demonstrated that nuclear power plants will not be a significant danger to public health and safety or render the country vulnerable to blackmail, terrorism or economic chaos, which I think cannot be proven.", "Members who saw Sen. Howard Baker of Tennessee at the televised Watergate hearings will be interested in his May 31 statement on a Frank Reynolds ABC-TV show after he had said: “I don’t think we can have a five-year moratorium. I think we have to go forward as fast as possible with the development of a nuclear energy system.” When the interviewer asked, “You do acknowledge the risk?” Sen. Baker replied: “There is a risk. It’s probably the biggest risk, the biggest single risk that any civilization has ever taken.”", "Later, Sen. Baker sent Sen. Gravel the fallowing clarification of what he meant to say: “The containment and storage of radioactive wastes is the greatest single responsibility [he underlined the word responsibility] ever consciously undertaken by man. We can ill afford to fall short in our obligation to protect future generations.” This statement applies to Ontario just as much as it does to any other country contemplating more nuclear power plants. Either of Sen. Baker’s statements, the one on risk or the one on responsibility, should be printed across the letterhead of every page that issues from the offices of the Minister of Energy and from the offices of Ontario Hydro. Wishing to be helpful to the Minister of Energy, I have composed a letterhead statement for him, although Hydro has 100 PR personnel, men and women, who could do it for him.", "My first draft, a hurried one of course, is as follows: “Containment and storage of radioactive wastes is the greatest single risk any civilization has ever undertaken.” I have a few words left over that could be added, such as, “of its own free will, foolishly, stupidly, insanely, criminally.” But I’ll leave this rough draft for the PR men to polish. They probably have more time than I have, Mr. Speaker. Certainly some of them must have long periods of wakefulness at night before they’re able to fall asleep.", "I should like to make a few remarks about what I shall call, using the kindest euphemism I can, the myth that nuclear power is clean. Electricity, generated from water power, may deserve the label “clean,” although after listening to the hon. member for Huron-Bruce this afternoon on the effect of the transmission of power in huge amounts by the hydro towers, perhaps I should revise that label somewhat. Electricity is generally regarded, let us say, as being clean, but nuclear power is filthy.", "Instead of calling this a myth, I toyed with such expressions as “the greatest falsehood ever told,” but then I found that Dr. John W. Gofman, whose study of nuclear power and whose appreciation of its perils have been intense, had a better description. He says : “Eco-pornography takes many forms, but none exceeds such statements as ‘nuclear power is clean.’ “", "We all know that coal-fuelled electric power plants are dirty, but at least after one of them has been operated for a span of time and is shut down there is then no further pollution, beginning the next day. But a filthier process than nuclear fission is inconceivable. It’s the only process which creates pollutants so terrifying that they must somehow be kept out of man’s environment for at least 24,000 years. Can any member in this House call that a clean source of energy? In the long-term, nuclear power is not merely filthy, it is obscene.", "Anthony Tucker, science editor of the Manchester Guardian, a fairly well respected newspaper, said on Feb. 19, 1972, that if the predictions of professional engineers are correct about the number of nuclear power plants we shall have by the year 2000, then “the United States and Europe jointly will each day have to bury or dispatch into space the equivalent of 2,000 Hiroshima bombs.” Every day, Mr. Speaker, and yet Ontario Hydro propagandists have the effrontery to call nuclear fission clean.", "Do the members know how hopeless and desperate the search for an effective disposal site for fission wastes has become? Dr. James Schlesinger, a recent chairman of the United States Atomic Energy Commission, has urged the development of a space shuttle vehicle which would fire radioactive wastes to the sun.", "Now if any member of this Legislature had suggested such a fantastic idea he would have been laughed right out of this House. Yet such is the prestige of these high priests of nuclear fission that this proposal was printed in the newspaper with no loss of respect to Dr. Schlesinger. Perhaps the reason no one laughed was the sobering statement which accompanied his proposal. He said: “We hope to remove these wastes permanently from the environment of man and that means for tens of thousands of years, because some traces of plutonium, which has a half-life of 24,000 years, remain in the waste.”", "The United Nations environmental programme issued a 97-page report early this month. It was referred to in the media as a “state of the environment” report and the member for Huron-Bruce referred to that same report, I believe, an hour or so ago. On page 23 we find two paragraphs that include the following comments -- this is the United Nations, Mr. Speaker: “A possible outer limit on energy conversion through nuclear fission is imposed by its production of large quantities of extremely toxic radio-isotopes with half-lives of the order of thousands to hundreds of thousands of years. Plutonium 239, a bone-seeking, 24,400-year, hard alpha emitter that is toxic in sub-microgram quantities and can form respirable aerosols, is a prominent example.", "“Such substances require infallible and perpetual isolation from the biosphere and it is hard to imagine how this can be done. Plans to manufacture large amounts of transuranic isotopes must therefore be urgently re-examined. Many classes of substances can now be identified which may be so hazardous that man cannot trust himself to take care of them. Identifying such a risk is a technical problem; deciding whether to incur it in the pursuit of some benefit is a political and ethical problem.” That last sentence, Mr. Speaker, is the text for my speech today. Remember, it is not merely my opinion; it’s the carefully considered opinion of the United Nations environmental programme.", "As recently as December, 1973, at the Pugwash conference at Oxford, Prof. Bernard Feld of MIT stated that the diversion of small quantities of plutonium, produced in nuclear fission power plants, could result in the clandestine production of hundreds of nuclear weapons and possible blackmail by terrorists groups.", "Members of this Legislature should keep in mind that for each pound of uranium that is mined, CANDU produces, in its natural uranium heavy water reactors, three times as much plutonium as do the enriched uranium light water United States’ plants. In that respect CANDU is three times as dangerous as the United States’ type of nuclear reactor.", "Lorne Gray, chairman of Canada’s AECL, is authority for this statement, yet the AECL has no present plans for using this accumulating stockpile of plutonium and no long-term plan for its safe disposal. In the United States, the AEC has scores of bookkeepers keeping an inventory of this most toxic substance whose half-life is over 24,000 years, but with every day that passes, chances of theft increase as the stockpile increases.", "With every new atomic plant that is put into operation that stockpile of wastes increases. In the May, 1972 edition of the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists, Hannes Alfven, Nobel prizewinner in physics, says: “Fission energy is safe only if a number of critical devices work as they should, only if a number of people in key positions follow all their instructions, only if there is no sabotage, no hijacking of transports, only if no reactor fuel-processing plant or repository anywhere in the world is situated in a region of riots or guerrilla activity and no revolution or war, even a conventional one, takes place in these regions. The enormous quantities of dangerous material must not get into the hands of ignorant people or desperadoes. No acts of God can be permitted.” The twin dangers of nuclear fission power plant operation and of the relentless, hourly accumulation of long-lived radioactive wastes are the concern not only of such well-known individuals as Dr. John Gofman, Linus Pauling, Ralph Nader, and Sen. Mike Gravel, but also of such groups as the Federation of American Scientists, the Union of Concerned Scientists, the Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers, the Rand Corp., and such lay groups as Voice of Women.", "Last October the committee of presidents of 29 leading chemical societies in the United States, representing about 300,000 chemists, urged a review of the whole programme of nuclear fission. Recently the prestigious Sierra Club in the United States has declared itself. In addition, there is widespread discord among top scientists of the Atomic Energy Commission itself over the safety of reactors, standards, waste disposal, the threat to public health, and even their economic validity.", "I shall give one example only. Alvin Weinberg, director of Oak Ridge National Laboratory, after referring to the military priesthood which guards against inadvertent use of nuclear weapons by the United States, said in the July 7, 1972 issue of Science: “It seems to me that peaceful nuclear energy will make demands of the same sort on our society and possibly of even longer duration.", "“We nuclear people have made a Faustian bargain with society. On the one hand, we offer an inexhaustible source of energy, but the price we demand of society is both of vigilance and a longevity of our social institutions to which we are not quite accustomed.", "“Reactor safety, waste disposal, transport of radioactive materials are complex matters about which little can be said with absolute certainty. [He asked the question:] Is mankind prepared to exert the eternal vigilance needed to ensure proper and safe operation of its nuclear system?” There, Mr. Speaker, is my text again, different from the United Nations’ wording, but the same in thought.", "The answer to this question is twofold. First, an emphatic no. Fallibility is so characteristic of man that a perfect performance is a rare and admirable event. Even the achievements of astronauts have been flawed, although not always fatally, by failure of men and man-made equipment, although actually three astronauts were incinerated at the beginning of what was supposed to be a routine flight into space. A set of figures, checked by at least 100 different experts, contained one simple error. No, man cannot provide infallible vigilance, even for a short time. Eternal infallible vigilance is a fool’s dream.", "If the first part of the answer is “No, he cant” the second part is “Why should he?” Why should he, indeed, when there is no necessity whatsoever?", "The Faustian bargain, described by Weinberg -- that is, a theoretically inexhaustible supply of energy in return for handing on to all our descendants the agonizing, inescapable and probably impossible burden of eternally guarding the filthy, radioactive, gene-changing carcinogenic wastes of the nuclear system -- is a bargain that has already been accepted by a few without disclosing the details to the rest of us. It is not too late to cancel the bargain, although it becomes increasingly difficult as month after month goes by and the proponents of filthy nuclear power promote their concepts relentlessly to all governments.", "The atomic establishment in the United States is facing increasing opposition. Just recently it was refused permission to build a nuclear reactor near Philadelphia because of the large population living there but it was told it could build it in a rural area where the population was less dense. Rural people are apparently more expendable. Consequently, the American nuclear establishment is now trying to get Canada to build nuclear reactors with which to supply the United States with electricity.", "This arrangement seems headed for success in Nova Scotia. It seems headed for success in Ontario. In British Columbia the plan to get an atomic plant built at Skagit seems to have run into some trouble. Premier Barrett has turned thumbs down on nuclear power in British Columbia.", "Let’s take a second look at this Faustian bargain. The offer is a supposedly inexhaustible supply of energy. Attractive? Of course. But we have an alternative choice of a different but guaranteed inexhaustible supply of energy, namely solar energy.", "It seems likely that all of this continent’s electrical needs could be supplied even from wind power alone. From the Windsor Star of March 22, 1974, we learn that United States’ scientists in the National Aeronautics and Space Administration are even now designing inexpensive, efficient windmills which could generate 10 megawatts of power in moderate winds. Twenty thousand of these spaced across the western plains on their own transmission towers could provide half of the present United States’ consumption.", "Let us do a quick environmental impact study on wind power, keeping in mind what the answers might be to the same question if one did an environmental impact study on fossil fuel and nuclear power plants.", "First, carbon monoxide effluent, zero; carbon dioxide effluent, zero; sulphur dioxide effluent, zero; hydrocarbon effluent, zero; plutonium produced, none; strontium 90 produced, none; cesium 137 produced, none; carbon 14 produced, none; tritium produced, none; probability of radioactive discharge, zero; probability of a melt-down of radioactive core, zero; need for everlasting disposal sites, none; number of uranium miners incurring lung cancer, none; number of lakes and streams polluted by radioactive effluent, none; number of poison gas shelters required in case of leaks of deadly hydrogen sulphide, like those near Kincardine at Inverhuron, none; thermal pollution, zero.", "I outlined some of the dangers of thermal pollution on June 4, 1973. Hansard records them on pages 3207 and 3208 and I have no intention of repeating them today. But the above list of problems that will vanish with the development of wind power or other forms of solar energy is not complete, of course. Although I may have exhausted my listeners I have not exhausted the list of pollutants that will be eliminated from man’s burden and environmental worries when various forms of solar energy, such as wind power, replace the enormously wasteful and dirty methods now being used.", "Mephistopheles’ legendary offer of great skill and magical powers required Dr. Faustus to give his soul in return. The nuclear establishment threatens not only our souls, if we accept this immoral bargain, but also our bodies, or at least those of our descendants, through the genetic havoc which some of them will almost certainly suffer.", "On the other hand, Mr. Speaker, nature offers us a safe, clean, limitless power, with no strings attached. Nature’s offer is an offer that we cannot refuse. There is probably only one man in Ontario who is in a position to end this Faustian bargain, and that of course is our Minister of Energy. This is not a technical or a technological problem, it is a moral or ethical problem. The minister is not a technical man, but surely he is an ethical man." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "But is he not a moral man either? He’s ethical, yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Burr", "text": [ "We have a choice either of various forms of solar energy or of nuclear energy. The former have virtually no disadvantages; they have all the virtues of an angel: safe, clean, moral and eternal." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "But the minister is not eternal." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Burr", "text": [ "The latter is open to every possible kind of objection. It is hazardous in the extreme, eternally filthy, downright immoral; in short, devilish.", "A speech prepared by the Deputy Minister of Energy for an engineers’ meeting in Thunder Bay, Nov. 23, 1973, appealed for citizen input. “The minister has made it clear in a number of his speeches that there is a further informal group from which we have certain expectations, I refer to citizens who have new ideas or concepts.” Later, the deputy minister added: “We need the support of all those people who are the real authorities and experts on energy matters. You name the area -- wind power, etc.; pick your own -- and I can assure you that we need on that subject a greater depth and breadth of knowledge.” Professor William E. Heronemus of the University of Massachusetts, probably the best known authority on wind power, will be speaking at a University of Sherbrooke (Quebec) seminar on wind energy in May, a few weeks from now. At both McGill University and the University of Sherbrooke, there are groups very interested in wind power conversion. Our Minister of Energy should send observers to the seminar in order to gain the “greater depth and breadth of knowledge” so eagerly sought." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)", "text": [ "And to contribute too." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "Get him out of our hair.", "Mr. Burr moves the adjournment of the debate.", "Motion agreed to." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, before I move the adjournment of the House, I would like to say that tomorrow we will proceed with item No. 4 and then return to this debate of item No. 1.", "Hon. Mr. Winkler moves the adjournment of the House.", "Motion agreed to.", "The House adjourned at 5 o’clock, p.m." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mrs. M. Scrivener (St. David)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of privilege to draw your attention to an article published on page 5 of this morning’s Globe and Mail, which refers to the member for St. David. By its wording and presentation -- and there is no qualification -- I believe the Globe and Mail has published a statement which is misleading and inaccurate, and which implies that I am against co-operative housing. Mr. Speaker, this is not true." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)", "text": [ "It certainly is true." ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. Scrivener", "text": [ "The article in question specifically refers to my opposition to a co-operative housing proposal in Don Vale, although, Mr. Speaker, I have publicly stated that I opposed this particular proposal on the grounds that it is badly planned, would consume valuable open space and is below the minimum standards required for similar residential development in the city of Toronto." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The member is destructive of co-op housing. She always has been." ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. Scrivener", "text": [ "Under the circumstances, Mr. Speaker --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)", "text": [ "It is not a question of personal privilege." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)", "text": [ "It is a debate." ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. Scrivener", "text": [ "-- I wish to set the record straight and place the matter in proper and truthful context --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "There is no privilege involved in that. The Globe and Mail statement is perfectly accurate." ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. Scrivener", "text": [ "-- by presenting to you a public statement which I made on Jan. 22, 1974, and an article I wrote which was published in Seven News at the end of January. These describe my reasons for not supporting the co-operative housing project in Don Vale." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "It is a perfectly accurate statement in the Globe and Mail and couldn’t have been more accurate if I had written it myself." ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. Scrivener", "text": [ "I hope that these can be included in the Hansard record.", "In addition, Mr. Speaker, I believe that the Globe and Mail should print a correction of its statement." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The Globe and Mail was dead on. The member opposed that project and she is on record as opposing it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "It is a debate." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "She doesn’t like co-op housing or non-profit housing which the government now supports." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. G. A. Kerr (Solicitor General)", "text": [ "The member opposite obviously did not have a good night’s sleep," ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please. The hon. member has raised a matter which has been introduced as a point of privilege. Of course, if there was an inaccuracy or she was misquoted I think she has the right to rise on a point of privilege." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "She wasn’t misquoted on it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Well, that’s the way." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)", "text": [ "She just doesn’t like what they wrote." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member raised it as a point of privilege, and I’m not at all sure it was a point of privilege after having listened to her." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "You’re right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "You are right. You are a perceptive Speaker, a discerning man." ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. M. Campbell (St. George)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I should like at this time to introduce to the House a group from the adult day school YMCA, 40 College St., who are here with Mr. Lawlor to see us in the House. I would ask the House to welcome them. They are in the east gallery." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "A fine looking bunch." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Statements by the ministry." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, as hon. members are aware, Hon. James Richardson, Minister of National Defence, in a statement last October, announced federal funds allocated to support the emergency measures programme in the provinces would be cut in half, from $3 million to $1.5 million.", "This announcement was made without prior consultation with the provinces. Since then, Ontario and the other provinces have made representations to Mr. Richardson for some consultation on the future of the emergency measures programme in Canada. We’ve had no real success with our submissions.", "This week the government of Canada further announced the formation of an emergency planning secretariat and an emergency planning establishment in Ottawa to deal with the federal response to natural or man-made crises of national scale, such as oil spills, storms, and nuclear and chemical contaminations. Again, the provinces had not been informed in advance of this restructuring. We are now awaiting the details of these latest proposals so that we can assess the effect on the province’s capability for dealing with these emergency situations.", "In the interim, the government of Ontario has accepted my recommendation to provide the necessary funds to the municipalities to enable them to retain their present emergency measures planning capability to the end of this calendar year.", "A study is now under way to determine how best to provide a more effective programme at provincial and municipal levels to deal with civil emergencies within the province, in the face of the greatly reduced support from the government of Canada. Since the impact of emergencies are always felt at the municipal level the study will undertake an analysis of a number of typical municipal programmes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)", "text": [ "Another one of those studies." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "Very short; it will be ready by the middle of April." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Another $100,000 down the drain." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)", "text": [ "Is that a green paper or a purple one?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "In addition, it will examine the effectiveness of the provincial response to such emergencies. The representative area programmes being surveyed include Sudbury region, Windsor, Essex county, Metropolitan Toronto and Bruce county.", "I am making this statement today, Mr. Speaker, so that the municipalities will have assurance of funding for their programmes during the current calendar year." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Oral questions.", "The hon. the Leader of the Opposition." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Solicitor General following the statement he just completed. Surely it would be possible, without a further study, to simply decide that the Ontario Provincial Police, with their excellent communications network and strong background in training, could assume the responsibilities that have been taken by the Emergency Measures Organization ever since the great atom bomb scares some years ago when the government was stockpiling signs on how to get to emergency shelters? Surely it’s time to abandon that programme and put the responsibility with the Ontario Provincial Police; stop the expense and stop the duplication?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)", "text": [ "He might even throw away the signs." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, this is one of the things the study, I’m sure, will find out." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Why not just try?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "It’s a study to escape the obvious." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "However, as the hon. member knows, the case of a civil emergency involves certainly more than the police. It involves the Ministry of Transportation and Communications. It involves all the local fire departments and other agencies --" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Red Cross." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. Haggerty (Welland South)", "text": [ "The most important ones." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "Things like the Red Cross and other private or municipal agencies. I think if we can correlate these and set them up in a way they meet civil emergencies within our province, rather than a sort of wartime oriented structure we’ve had until now, then when -- heaven forbid -- we really have an emergency such as Hurricane Hazel or something like that the structure will be there and the direction will come from here." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "The structure is already there." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "By way of a supplementary, Mr. Speaker, could the Solicitor General tell us if it is the government’s intention to keep up the cabinet bunker in Barrie, keep it well furnished and well stocked in case there is an emergency, so that all important cabinet ministers can run up to Barrie and be safe?" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "That liquor must be getting pretty well aged." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Run up on the CN commuter train." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "I didn’t realize we had that type of structure up there, but if we’re there it’s natural that we should be protected." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Thanks for letting us know. It’s nice to have a place to hide from the member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "The cyanide pills are there." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Special passes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Travel up on pogo sticks." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "We’re going to have one at Minaki as well." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Put one up at Winisk." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Another study on that is certainly not required." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "The minister should go and have a look at it." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I would like to ask the Minister of Housing, in connection with his speech designating seven areas for special emergency housing programmes, why it was that he did not make more direct reference to those properties in Waterloo region and close to Brantford where there are thousands of acres owned by Ontario Housing which have never yet been designated for any programme use or service? Surely those communities should have been a part of the programme which the minister has designated as an emergency programme.", "I would also like to ask him specifically how many dollars were allocated? It seems to me that the sum of $4 million was mentioned. Would he verify that this is the amount going along with this emergency programme?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. S. B. Handleman (Minister of Housing)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the two questions are on two different programmes. First of all, despite the headline in the Globe and Mail, I did not specify seven urban centres -- and I’m reading the headline right in front of me. What I did specify, and very carefully stated, was that our housing action programme had designated the megalopolis area, Hamilton, Oshawa, Metro Toronto region, Sault Ste. Marie, Thunder Bay and Ottawa-Carleton. I don’t think that adds up to seven. It was very specifically couched in general terms because we have not yet reached an agreement with any of the municipalities." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur)", "text": [ "Give us that again? “Very specifically couched in general terms”?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. N. G. Leluk (Humber)", "text": [ "The member had better hone up on his vocabulary and he might understand it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "With regard to the area that the hon. Leader of the Opposition has mentioned, it has not been involved in our preliminary studies of housing action areas. I would be glad to look at it. What we are concerned with at the present time is the price crisis which exists. We are trying to get into the areas which will be the most amenable to expanded development of land, to create the oversupply that we are trying to achieve; but I will certainly take a look at the areas the hon. opposition leader has mentioned.", "The second part of the question refers to my statement yesterday on non-profit housing. What I said was that in our estimates this year there is an amount of $4 million to enable us to start the programme for the first year. That will cover the 10 per cent grants, the expertise and the assistance in planning, as well as the rent supplement programme that’s encompassed in that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary: I wonder if the minister would undertake to table in the House a complete list of properties that might be said to be part of Ontario Housing’s land bank. We refer frequently to the Malvern properties, which have been held for many years, and the large acreage in Kitchener-Waterloo -- I am not sure how big it is, but is it as big as 10,000 acres?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Ruston (Essex-Kent)", "text": [ "Three thousand acres" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. W. Snow (Minister of Government Services)", "text": [ "Three thousand, yes" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Three thousand acres. And the 1,000 acres in Brantford are readily memorable because they have been referred to in the House so frequently.", "Surely the idea of banking these properties near large expanding urban centres is to utilize them, through services, when the time is ripe -- and if the time was ever ripe it is now. It seems to me that the Minister of Housing ought to move into these land bank areas, to see that they are serviced and that the serviced lots are provided without further delay.", "I wonder, then, if the minister could undertake to table a complete list of the land holdings of Ontario Housing not yet developed; those that might be said to form a part of the land bank such as it is?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, at first glance it appears to be a reasonable request and I will certainly look into it. I can’t think of any reason right now why that information cannot be made public --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Given time, he will come up with one." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "However, I am quite sure the hon. member understands --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "It has been on the public record in bits and pieces." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "-- that OHC is constantly in the process of acquiring land, and I am sure he wouldn’t want us to divulge acquisition plans that are now in progress which might assist speculators." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Way to go!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I am talking about land that has been acquired up until now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker! Since it is now approximately 6½ months since the Premier (Mr. Davis) announced the housing action programme, which was intended to bring some 60,000 or 70,000 additional lots to market than would have come in the normal process, can the Minister of Housing tell us exactly how many additional lots so far have been brought to market by the housing action programme?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "They call it the housing “action” programme?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. G. Davis (Premier)", "text": [ "We are always very conservative." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I replied to a question on this a short time ago, and the hon. member knows the housing action programme is just now getting off the ground.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "I may be able to take some comfort in the fact that apparently it was waiting for me to take charge. I am taking charge, and I will get on with the job as quickly as possible.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Supplementary: Is that why the ministry had an advertisement in the Globe and Mail at the end of February to hire a housing co-ordinator at a level of $25,000 to formulate various short-term housing programmes? I mean, not a thing has happened yet. The minister hasn’t a single plan to tell us about, the number of serviced lots or the amount of money to be invested. He has just put out advertisements for his housing coordinator. The whole policy is a sham and has been throughout." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "That’s right, all words." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I don’t accept that. It is a comment, not a question. Yes, we have advertised for housing co-ordinators. We are appointing them. These people are to be located in local areas so they can get to work with the local municipalities." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "It is “co-ordinator” -- not plural. There was nothing plural about it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I would like to ask the Minister of the Environment if he will table the report having to do with solid waste disposal, referred to in the newspaper this morning, which seems to reverse the opinions stated by many so-called authorities on the disposal of soft drink and other drink containers? Has he got that report available and why have we not had a copy of it here in the Legislature before we read about it in the press?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman (Minister of the Environment)", "text": [ "I don’t know why hon. members don’t have a copy. I just got mine and I haven’t had a chance to study it in detail. I have just received it. I would hope to table it in the House in the very near future." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary: Is there a possibility that the government will ever follow up on the commitment made, I believe, by the present Solicitor General in one of his previous incarnations as having something to do with the environment, when he said there would be legislation controlling the non-returnable containers which have added so tremendously to the solid waste disposal problem?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "That is still to be studied." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "Regulation." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "Many of these things were covered in --", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I haven’t read this report. The same people who talked to the Premier have talked to me, and apparently they are wrong.", "I’m sorry, what is the minister going to do?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "I didn’t know whether the hon. member wanted an answer or not. Well, certainly we are going to study the report and there will be certain things in the report that we’ll be taking action on. I haven’t had a chance to read the report. I have just had it on my desk since yesterday.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Supplementary: Has it been drawn to the minister’s attention that the man who did the research for the report indicates that the non-returnable bottle portion constitutes about 6.7 per cent of the solid waste and that the other 93 per cent is not being studied by the ministry in any aspect? What is the minister going to do about that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "In the report there are many matters that were studied and apparently in the conclusions they have recommended an ongoing study of the other matters. I said I haven’t read it in detail yet." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I have no more questions, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A question of the Minister of Housing --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. White (Treasurer, Minister of Economics and Intergovernmental Affairs)", "text": [ "Does the Leader of the Opposition just ask questions for which I am responsible when I am out of the city. Is that how it works?" ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, perhaps you will permit me just one more question.", "I wonder if the Treasurer can tell the House if he was personally responsible for the decision to fire Allan Rowan-Legg and to pay him severance pay well beyond the amount permitted by the regulations and statutes of Ontario, and then to see that his campaign manager was fitted into that particular job in London, England -- since he is so anxious to answer." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. T. P. Reid (Rainy River)", "text": [ "Was the Treasurer over there visiting?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "I was personally --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "The question was asked once of the Chairman of the Management Board (Mr. Winkler), who must of course have had something to do with those decisions." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "Well, we have been over these jumps several times in the last several years." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "We have not had an answer from the Chairman of the Management Board." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "I was personally responsible for relieving Mr. Rowan-Legg of his duties in London, England, because I didn’t think he was suitable for the kind of job I wanted done." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "And the Treasurer was looking for a vacancy." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "I had him removed here to Toronto, where an effort was made to locate him, without success. When it became apparent that we couldn’t locate him within the ministry or in any other ministry, I obtained advice from the Attorney General’s department. We were required to get outside advice, because Mr. Rowan-Legg got himself a lawyer --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "The nerve of him!" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "We paid a sum of money, which I was told on the best advice of the Attorney General’s department and the outside solicitor, was less than he would have been awarded if we had taken the matter to court. Now that is the situation. And if the public accounts committee want to go into those details, they are free to do so." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "It’s reminiscent of the way Hepburn operated." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. A. Stewart (Minister of Agriculture and Food)", "text": [ "He didn’t even pay severance!" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "Now, insofar as Ward Cornell is concerned, he had all of the attributes; it had nothing to do with whether or not he worked for me." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "He went out of sacrifice, great economic sacrifice.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "And the Leader of the Opposition must be the only person in this chamber who is not aware that Ward Cornell has done a superlative job in every way." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "The Treasurer certainly got fuelled up while he was away." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "Everyone, including Liberals, who goes to London, England, knows this is a fact. Why he would take that job at something less than $30,000 when he was making $80,000 in his own business, I don’t know. I suppose it was for the same reason that he joined the Canadian Army during the war --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "Now, I want to say these kinds of cheap, personal shots are no substitute for Liberal policy. No wonder the hon. member is sitting over there." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A supplementary: Does the Treasurer believe that the Provincial Auditor’s criticism of his stance in this was a cheap, personal shot? How is he going to justify the criticism that came from the Provincial Auditor that the money for the severance was above and beyond the regulations?", "A further supplementary: I would like to ask the Treasurer how Mr. Rowan-Legg could have been maintained in this high and lucrative office in London, England, when he was completely incompetent, as far as the Treasurer has said, and could not be placed in government service?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "I think Mr. Rowan-Legg is competent in many ways. I think Mr. Rowan-Legg is probably one of the best diplomats that one could hire. I don’t think he’s a hard-hitting salesman. I wanted to change the nature of Ontario House from some kind of soft, service operation to a hard-hitting sales promotional operation --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A service centre for Tories." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Why didn’t the Treasurer bring Stanley Randall back?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "-- and in my view Mr. Rowan-Legg didn’t have those particular qualities. Now insofar as the Provincial Auditor’s report is concerned --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Yes?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "-- I am a little bit surprised that some effort wouldn’t be made to look into the file on the subject and see that we had no recourse in the matter, based on the advice of the Attorney General’s lawyers and an outside lawyer who was retained to deal with Mr. Rowan-Legg’s lawyer.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Table it.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "If you will permit a further supplementary, Mr. Speaker.", "Is the Treasurer not acute enough to realize that the criticism directed in this matter is against him and not the incumbent of the post? We are not talking about the present incumbent’s qualifications at all, other than it appears that he had an office opened up for him at the decision of his friend, the Treasurer." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Nonsense." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "No way." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "That’s cheap." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Cheap? The minister is cheap. He is incompetent." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Is it to be --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "The Leader of the Opposition should not be --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "No wonder the NDP are the opposition around here.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "No wonder this government is going to cease being the government around here." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "We don’t want any more of that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, we accept the validity of that but we reject what is being said by the minister." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. A. Grossman (Provincial Secretary for Resources Development)", "text": [ "Now the member for Ottawa Centre is going to spoil it all." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Does my colleague have a supplementary?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Yes, I do have a supplementary. This is a wider question on government policy, as a supplementary, Mr. Speaker.", "In view of the payment to Mr. Rowan-Legg, is it now government policy that in the case of secretaries, carpenters and other working people who are fired by the government, that they, too, will be paid a year’s salary or more?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. W. Ewen (Wentworth North)", "text": [ "Does the member recommend that? Is he recommending that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "As a golden handshake?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "I suppose if somebody gets a lawyer in certain circumstances and threatens to bring suit and we, in turn, get a lawyer, and a settlement is made, I suppose, in certain circumstances --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "To him who hath, the more is given!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "It is a law for the rich and another for the poor.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "He must be overpaid if he hires a lawyer." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Does the member need a lawyer, too?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "At the risk of imperilling the minister’s new-found regard for this party, could I ask him --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "How does the member know it is new?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "-- to table the material on the Rowan-Legg situation since the point that fascinates me, I must say, is that he would have had sufficient grounds on which to threaten suit to inspire an out-of-court settlement? Therefore, I think we are entitled to know what the circumstances were." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "I really do believe, if the member wants to pursue the matter further, that it should be done in the public accounts committee where there will be access to the officials who were involved in the technical detail, which I must say, were beyond my comprehension." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "All right then; that’s fine." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A question, Mr. Speaker, of the Minister of Housing.", "As part of the housing action programme, I noticed that Mr. Martin, the co-ordinator, said that the Ontario Housing Corp. will build 17,000 units instead of 10,000 units over the next two years. My arithmetic tells me that on the part of OHC that is a burst of extravagance of 7,000 additional units over a two-year period. Does that work out to 3,500 units a year? How, may I ask, is that going to help? That’s for the whole province. How is that going to help even Metro Toronto where there are now 8,000 families on the waiting list?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. M. Havrot (Timiskaming)", "text": [ "Where does the member want to build them?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "I believe Mr. Martin was talking about the entire OHC programme, not simply rent supplement units." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "That’s right. He was talking about the whole programme." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "He also may have been somewhat on the conservative side in his estimates." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Oh!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "What does the member expect him to be?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "I have asked for those figures. The preliminary estimate I have is that we will well exceed that amount; but it is also my understanding -- and I’ll check into it -- that that is a one-year figure, not a two-year figure. They were talking about 17,000 in 1974-1975." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I would appreciate the minister’s checking into it, because I suspect that Mr. Martin’s information is the authentic information.", "I want to ask quite seriously how the minister can possibly pretend to have any housing programmes at all, of any consequence, when every figure that emerges puts us further and further behind the accepted public need? Can he consider a programme to build 50,000 to 100,000 units a year rather than 3,500 to 7,000?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "I know the hon. member would like the government to build all the units in the province. Our housing starts total -- and I am not just talking about OHC -- is well in excess of the 50,000 or 60,000 that the hon. member has mentioned." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I am talking about OHC." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "OHC is not about to build all the houses and all the units required in this province." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I am not asking for all the housing." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "We are working with the municipalities and the private sector. I have said it before. There is a philosophical difference between the hon member and myself. We are going to depend greatly on the private sector for delivery.", "Interjections by hon members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "And the minister will fail because they have failed." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "However, we will have our input.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "A supplementary, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "The best in the world.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "The minister claims credit for the fact that housing starts in the province are up. Is he aware that housing starts in Metro Toronto last year were down by 10 per cent?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "In Hamilton city they were down by 15 per cent; in London they were down by 28 per cent; in St. Catharines they were down by 10 per cent; and in Windsor they were down by 36 per cent?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. P. J. Yakabuski (Renfrew South)", "text": [ "Question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Does he feel that that means the government is meeting the housing demand in the areas of greatest need?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Or his friends in the private sector?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Unlike the hon, member I prefer to look ahead and say that we will do the job in 1974-1975.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "A supplementary question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order. The hon. member for St. George." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "No wonder they change the ministry so often over there." ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. Campbell", "text": [ "A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: When is the Minister of Housing going to start to correct the situation criticized in the Ontario Economic Council report? When is he going to stop talking about building a unit? When is he going to actually attack the disease in this province and service the land and bring it in here to this House?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Don’t you dare bring the serviced lands in here!" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Sometimes I wonder, Mr. Speaker, whether the hon. member listens to the preceding debate and the preceding questions." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "“Action” programme!", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "That’s exactly what we are attempting to do." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order. Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. If the minister is interested in providing housing, will he move into the Saltfleet Mountain area where Ontario Housing Corp. have adequate land to build for the needs of 80,000 people --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "That’s right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "-- and will he put the money in that is necessary to enable it all to be serviced within the next two years? And will he put that land on the market in order that people in the area can have housing at a cost that they can afford?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I’ll certainly look into that. I’ve been meeting and will continue to meet with the regional municipalities to discuss the ways and means in which we can co-operate in bringing this type of land onto the market as quickly as possible." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "He is worse than his predecessor.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Yes, I think we’ll permit --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "He is worse than his predecessor and that’s not possible." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order. Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "A supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Supplementary? One more supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "Can the minister tell the House if OHC has alternate plans for providing senior citizen housing in Thunder Bay, in view of the cancellation of the project in Fort William because of the cosy relationship between the chairman of OHC and the member for Fort William (Mr. Jessiman)?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. L. Bernier (Minister of Natural Resources)", "text": [ "That’s not true." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Well, I know of the cancellation of that project. I’ll look into what alternative plans they have and reply to the hon. member later." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Windsor-Walkerville. A supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman (Windsor-Walkerville)", "text": [ "A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Is the minister aware that the needs of the senior citizens in the city of Windsor are not decreasing? Is he aware that the needs are still for well over 1,200 units and approximately 800 family units; and that at the rate Ontario Housing is attempting to remedy the situation it will never be remedied?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Well, I don’t accept that it will never be remedied but I will look into that one too for the hon. member and report back to him as to the progress we are making.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I’d like to ask of the Solicitor General, if I may, would he consider recommending to the Attorney General (Mr. Welch) that all of the outstanding charges that flowed from the Artistic Woodwork dispute be now dropped, given the fact that only 41 or 43 convictions have been found out of over 91 charges laid, and given the incredible differences of opinion and evidence that are being offered between the police on the one hand and the public on the other, often discrediting the police?", "Does he not think that it has come to the point where that whole squalid episode of police involvement, particularly since the task force report is now before us, might well be rescued by a sensible and intelligent submission on his part to the Attorney General to have the charges dropped and the behaviour of the police looked into, indeed as is implied in the report in places?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member has implied, these matters have been heard now for some weeks; charges have been laid, there have been convictions, there have been acquittals. I really don’t see how I could recommend to the Attorney General that the balance of those charges be dropped.", "Certainly there can’t be a difference in the way we apply the laws of this province, in the way the due process of the administration of justice is carried out.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. W. Martel (Sudbury East)", "text": [ "That is something new that I just learned today." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "It is my understanding now, particularly in the last several hearings, that the matters are being expedited and that there are more acquittals because of a great deal of confusion in the evidence; but I really don’t see how I could make the recommendation suggested by the hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "One-sided use of law." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "Isn’t it a fact that the company did hire an undercover man, someone who infiltrated the union and who was subsequently charged for causing public mischief and with other charges as a result of activities on the picket line, and whose job seemed to be to put the union in a bad light as well as doing undercover work and relaying that information to the company?", "Does the Solicitor-General not feel that some charges should perhaps be laid against the company in this regard, and in view of the kind of activities this man engaged in that perhaps the charges against the rest of those people who were involved should be dropped?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "It is my understanding, Mr. Speaker, that the so-called undercover agent --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "So-called? He was an industrial spy." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "-- acted, certainly, exceeding any type of instructions that he had. As the hon. member has said he was charged. He was convicted of at least one offense. I believe there were at least two charges against him." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Even the member for Scarborough Centre (Mr. Drea) can’t swallow that." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "He was dismissed by his employer. Any licence that he had has been cancelled." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "After he had done his job." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "He got paid for his work." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "Certainly if the firm was in breach of any existing law, it should be charged. I agree with that, but that doesn’t really --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "That is sickening." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Well, I think we should alternate on the supplementaries." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "The minister is proving it is an uneven application of the law." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "That doesn’t really relate to the situation as enunciated by the hon. member for Scarborough West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Well, more to the point, when is the Solicitor-General going to move to put an end to the use of these investigation agencies in labour disputes, and when is he going to move to make the people who hire them equally responsible for their actions, in order to ensure that we don’t have the kind of things happening on picket lines that have been occurring in the Province of Ontario at the instigation of people who have no direct interest in the dispute itself?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "As the hon. member knows, we have legislation dealing with private police organizations and so-called security firms and we hope to look at that legislation this year." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "The minister is as bad as the member for Bellwoods (Mr. Yaremko) used to be." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Is the minister aware that this man was employed by a subsidiary of an American company and that he was in here disrupting an orderly picket line and causing a lot of trouble for the people who are not even in the dispute, and he may well have instigated much of the damage that occurred?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Supplementary: How does the minister say we have legislation when the task force review which was published yesterday asked on an urgent basis for “a specific and comprehensive review of private security forces” dealing precisely with this kind of dispute? Does he not recognize that the private security sector is in a shambles and often abused, and that there are no protections for the public if they abuse it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "And no code of ethics." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "No. The taskforce has said, Mr. Speaker, that our existing legislation and the regulations are inadequate and that the whole thing should be reviewed." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Right, so don’t fall back on that." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "And we intend to do that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Does the hon. member for Scarborough West have further questions?" ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I have a question of the Treasurer, if I may, Mr. Speaker. When did the Treasurer proclaim the development controls for the Niagara Escarpment?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "We have in the last few weeks proclaimed the development area but we have not as yet registered the development control areas within the planning area. There is an enormous amount of technical work." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I phrased my question that way because I was afraid I had missed it. As I recall it, it was first announced on June 4, 1973. The Treasurer’s acute embarrassment at thinking that the development controls had been applied occurred somewhere toward the end of 1973. It is now March of 1974 and we still have no development controls applying to the escarpment area. What is it about this new legislation that was supposed to save the escarpment that is so difficult to apply?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "There are controls --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "But there is still development." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "-- and there is no development taking place. It is necessary for a developer with a proposal to go to somebody, and when he goes to that somebody the answer is, “No, not at the present time”; so there are controls and there is no development." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "There’s a freeze." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "There’s a freeze." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "It’s the same thing." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "The reason the regulations themselves are not proclaimed is because it takes an enormous amount of technical detail. I can assure the member this is being done as fast as humanly possible and I can assure him that I did everything possible myself to have these things in place before this session started." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Well, we almost believe the Treasurer." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I understand his personal agitation but when, oh lord, is it coming? That was a generic term." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "As fast as the human beings assigned the responsibility can do it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Does the hon. member for Scarborough West have further questions? The hon. member for Kitchener." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a question of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations with respect to the registration of part-time real estate agents: Can the minister advise us how many of these part-time registrations have been accepted and what are the terms and conditions for the qualification of the people for whom these registrations have been issued?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. T. Clement (Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I believe there have been somewhere around 15 to 18 so-called part-time real estate salesmen registered. As the hon. member knows, it has been the policy of the registrar, and I stress policy for a number of years, not to register those individuals as salesmen unless they were inclined to be full-time except in certain sparsely settled areas in the province. There was no legislation either by way of statute or regulation giving credence to this particular policy.", "Now there have been people come forward. I think of one in particular who works one hour a day in another occupation with a communication medium here in Metro and who wished to be registered, in fact passed the exam, received 80 marks, and the registrar was of the opinion that she would be part-time.", "This is really what has brought this matter to our attention. She took the opinion, and perhaps quite properly, that she was not part-time in that she was working only an hour a day, five days a week in another field and was prepared to spend six, eight or 10 hours a day selling real estate. So it has been interpreted by many that the registrar has suddenly changed the policy.", "The fact of the matter is that I don’t think that as a matter of policy we had the right to preclude someone such as I have described from coming forward and selling real estate as part-time. There are those who profess to be full-time and yet spend only a few hours a day because they are occupied in the home as a homemaker. There are those who work full-time six or eight months a year and spend the balance of the year perhaps retired in Florida and this sort of thing.", "The part that bothers me, Mr. Speaker, in the interests of the consumer, is the question of whether the qualifications of the individual agent are being watered down and thus the consumer is suffering in the event that these part-time people are permitted. I met with the real estate association and numerous individuals. I am genuinely concerned about it and it might well be that we are going to have to define, by way of regulation, what part-time means and preclude such people from coming into the industry." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, as a supplementary, I share the views of the minister that in the public interest, qualified persons must certainly be there. I think for any solicitor who has been involved with the various offers to purchase and sell, there are various problems that can arise. But will the minister assure us that the present real estate agents and boards within the province are made well aware of his views on this subject, because there appears to be some confusion and some particular concern that the gates are going to be widely opened to persons who may not have the qualifications that we all believe should exist." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I agree with the comments of the hon. member. Insofar as qualifications are concerned, before one can be an agent now one must undergo the course and receive a passing mark of not less than 75 per cent. If the person comes forward, takes that course and obtains that mark or better as the law now stands he or she is entitled to identify with a broker.", "I have also pointed out to the association that, in fact, some of the brokers in this province are encouraging these people to do it. An agent can’t sell except through connection with a broker’s office. I can only conclude that some brokers do not regard this as a serious matter.", "However, I am still looking at it. I’ve met with numerous real estate people including the incoming president and the outgoing president of the association. As I said earlier, perhaps by regulation we may have to define part-time and preclude those who would work, as we traditionally understand, six or eight hours a day in an industry and then go out in the evenings and sell for two or three hours a week. I think this is the thing we’re generally concerned about -- that the consumer who deals with that type of agent may not have the benefit of dealing with someone much more experienced and devoted to the profession." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Sudbury is next. The hon. member for Sudbury?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. C. Germa (Sudbury)", "text": [ "Not on a supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I understand my colleague is on a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I’m sorry. I didn’t even say supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "For clarification, is it, in fact, the case that any real estate salesman has to meet standards of the ministry, or are they internal standards of the real estate profession in Ontario? Secondly, can a broker hire people without qualifications to sell for him?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "I think it was in July, 1971, when it became mandatory by way of regulation that before a person could qualify from that date on as a broker or an agent, as the case may be, he or she had to undergo a course. These courses for the salesmen are given at community colleges throughout the province. It’s a 90-hour course spread over three weeks. The examination is written by the salesman and he or she must obtain a mark of 75 per cent or better. If they do not, then before they can qualify they must, of course, take the course over again, unless they appeal the mark directly to the registrar.", "The answer to the second portion of the hon. member’s question is no, a broker cannot hire a real estate agent unless he’s qualified by virtue of this particular course. A second extension of that is that if a person individually owns real estate he can have an employee sell it. If the member has a parcel of real estate and wishes to develop it himself, he need not be a broker and he can have his employees act as his salesmen for that particular parcel, of course." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Sudbury." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Germa", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a question of the Minister of Housing: Is the minister aware of a relatively minor fire which occurred in a senior citizens’ highrise unit in the city of Sudbury, which caused confusion and fear among all residents, even in the upper levels? Is the minister aware of the particular hazard in these senior citizens’ highrise buildings? Would he consider putting in a communications system in all of these buildings in order that those people trapped on the upper levels may be directed on the proper action to take?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am aware of the fire. I understand it was a relatively minor grease fire which caused no structural damage and no injury. However, any fire, no matter how small, is going to cause some consternation and confusion among elderly people. I have been advised that there is a good programme of education going on, and has been going on for quite some time, to inform the residents as to how they should behave and how they should react in case of fire. Certainly the hon. member has made a suggestion about the installation of a communications system. I will look into it and see what we can do." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Downsview is next." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question of the Solicitor General. Could he bring us up to date on the latest developments on the action the Province of Ontario brought against Dow Chemical and give us the latest report? Can he tell us whether or not he agrees with comments made by the Ministry of Natural Resources when this matter was questioned by the Provincial Auditor, and the ministry advised the auditor that the ministry says it does not now appear that this will happen in the near future? That is, that there will be compensation and that the suit will be settled in the near future. Would the minister care to comment on that and tell us whether he agrees with the Ministry of Natural Resources?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that the hon. member ask the Attorney General." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Oh, the minister has checked out of that, has he?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "As far as the present state of the suit is concerned I understand, for example, that the action has been discontinued against the American parent company." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "That was months ago." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "That was last year." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "That was last year’s answer. He needs a new one." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "Now proceedings are continuing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "It has been 3½ years now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Since the minister introduced it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Remember he took his shoe off for the first time. The first time he has taken his shoe off --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "Well, it’s out of my hands. As I say, the member must ask the Attorney General. As members know, Mr. Robinette is counsel. He’s a very competent counsel." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "He doesn’t mind staying on as counsel." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "It’s in his hands. It’s in the lawyer’s hands. It’s not in the Legislature’s hands at this time. I don’t want to make any observation as to the comment of the Minister of Natural Resources. As the hon. member knows, there’s been a decision in Ohio and I’m sure this may affect our proceedings to some extent." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "The minister wouldn’t want to comment on that, no.", "By way of a supplementary, would the minister agree with the comment recently made by my colleague from Sarnia that one would expect finality to this matter perhaps by the year 2000?" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Optimist!" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "I think he’s pessimistic, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Mark it down to 1998." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Wentworth." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. By the way, this is the Solicitor General’s year to swim in Hamilton Bay. Don’t forget." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "No, it is next year. Don’t risk it, please!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "He will be able to walk across it by then." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations. What has become of his warranty on new houses?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have no warranty on new housing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "He has nothing on housing." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "The question of a warranty on residential housing has been a matter of great interest and discussion for some time. I received an invitation this past week to attend in Ottawa, at the request of Mr. Basford, along with other consumer ministers, a discussion on the question of housing warranties. Presumably he is interested in some type of federal legislation to apply right across Canada." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "No, please don’t. We are sick and tired of that. Don’t get sucked into that." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Oh, no. I won’t get sucked into that. I want to find out what Mr. Basford intends to do. Certain propositions put before him by private groups have been refused --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "The minister has the jurisdiction." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "It may well be that this province is going to embark on warranty legislation relating to housing later on this year." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Where housing is concerned, everything is expendable." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "But at the present time I want to see what Mr. Basford’s position is at that meeting in Ottawa which, I believe, will be two weeks from now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "The minister doesn’t have to see Mr. Basford’s position." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "A supplementary question: Does the province have a position on warranties on new housing? Is the minister going to go ahead with or without federal participation?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Yes, why not?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I think it is such an important subject that if it isn’t --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "If it is so important why doesn’t the minister move on it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Can I not give the answer? Do you fellows not want to hear the answer?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "We are sick and tired of that answer.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "I think this province is going to have to initiate housing warranties if the feds don’t.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Because the minister can’t do it with words, he has to act." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "I think we have to. It’s a matter of great concern. I tell the members it’s a matter of great concern and they hoot and howl. I don’t know whether they’ve got worms or what it is.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Chairman of Management Board has the answer to a question previously asked." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was asked a couple of questions some days ago, one of which the leader of the Liberal Party referred to and the answer to which I had prepared this morning. However I wouldn’t have missed that exchange for the world and I suppose we’ve dealt with it now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Well, the Treasurer felt he wanted to defend the indefensible." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "I would have also substantiated the support for Mr. Ward Cornell, maybe even in broader terms.", "However, this question --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Probably more effectively." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "Pardon me?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Probably more effectively." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "I’m not too sure about that, but I wouldn’t have missed the exchange in any event." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "I was asked a question by the member for Kitchener, in regard to Mr. Douglas Wright, and the answer to that question is that section 33 of the Act referred to was amended effective Sept. 21, 1973, “and expanded to cover conflict of interest.” But the new terms of the section would still not apply to this particular situation. As the work was carried out in this particular case all within the government service, provisions of section 33 did not apply.", "There was another question, Mr. Speaker, from the hon. member for Scarborough West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Could I have a supplementary to that answer?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "How is it that the Chairman of the Management Board could allow the payments to the post-secondary committee to get so seriously out of hand to the point where probably one of the most serious criticisms from the auditor was directed in that way? Does the Chairman of the Management Board remember this matter coming before the Management Board, or was it just handled by people at another level as routine approval for expenditure far exceeding that which was envisaged when the committee was set up?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "Certainly not, Mr. Speaker. The matter is referred to Management Board by the ministry concerned and considered accordingly in regard to the responsibilities assigned." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "So the Chairman of the Management Board takes responsibility for the tremendous cost of that committee and the allocation of those funds?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "I will accept responsibility for the decision in regard to Dr. Wright; yes.", "There was another question from the hon. member for Scarborough West in regard to a name; I think I have the question which --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I think that was answered by the press." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "It was answered by the Star the next day -- but the answer, of course, was David Black." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "One of the NDP supporters?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I don’t think so. We cancelled his membership.", "He made so much money he joined another party." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I direct that the time has now expired for oral questions. In fact it has been exceeded.", "Petitions.", "Presenting reports." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, as hon. members will recall, in June, 1972, this government appointed Dr. Osmond M. Solandt, former chairman of the Science Council of Canada, to inquire under the terms of the Public Inquiries Act into the routing of Ontario Hydro’s proposed 500-kv transmission line between the two generating stations of Nanticoke, on Lake Erie south of Hamilton, and Pickering, on Lake Ontario east of Toronto. This major new line will not only connect these two generating stations, but also serve to connect with other parts of Ontario Hydro’s 500-kv grid system, and with existing and future lower voltage distribution lines.", "Commissioner Solandt held an initial set of public hearings in August and September, 1972, into routes then proposed by Ontario Hydro for this Nanticoke to Pickering line. During these hearings, individual citizens, municipalities, associations and other groups made submissions to the commission.", "On Oct. 31, 1972, commissioner Solandt submitted an interim report in which he stated, and I quote:", "The main conclusion that I have reached as a result of the evidence presented to the commission is that while Ontario Hydro has demonstrated that the preferred route which they have selected is not a completely unsatisfactory route for the proposed line, they did not produce adequate evidence to support the view that it is the best available route. Hydro’s already extensive studies must be supplemented by a much more widespread and systematic study of the entire area before it can be concluded that Hydro’s preferred route is the best available route, or that some other route is preferable.", "This recommendation, Mr. Speaker, was accepted by the government, and the Solandt commission retained the Toronto firm of BHI Ltd., environmental consultants, to undertake the recommended study to determine the preferred route for the transmission line. The consultants were requested to involve the public in their work from the outset.", "The report of this study, with a recommendation as to the location for the 500-kv transmission line, was submitted to the Solandt commission on Sept. 1, 1973.", "In their report, the consultants recommended that the 500-kv line should follow, wherever possible, the so-called Parkway Belt West.", "Following circulation of this report, the Solandt commission held a further series of public hearings in October, November and December, 1973, in order that interested parties would have an opportunity to speak to those recommendations.", "After consideration of the evidence presented at these public hearings, commissioner Solandt has delivered to me his report on this public inquiry, which I now table. In it, he has put forward for consideration by the public and by this government his recommendation as to the preferred location for the 500-kv transmission line between Nanticoke and Pickering.", "The inquiry by the commission, Mr. Speaker, introduced an innovative approach to public participation in seeking commentary on a major project which will have significant environmental impact on those communities through which the 500-kv corridor will traverse.", "I would like at this time, sir, to express publicly the government’s thanks and my personal thanks to commissioner Solandt and his staff for their tremendous enthusiasm, dedication and the hard work which went into this report.", "In my view, sir, it will long stand as a landmark experiment in public participation in matters which are not only extremely complex but also of all-pervading public concern. Copies of the commission report are being delivered to, or will shortly be delivered to the hon. members, and it will also be available through the Ontario government bookstore." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Gaunt (Huron-Bruce)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on a matter of clarification may I ask the minister a question? Would the minister clarify for me whether or not the alignment proposed by the Solandt report accords with the alignment proposed by Ontario Hydro?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "I would say the answer to that is no. But the hon. member can judge for himself in just a few minutes when he sees the map which is attached to the report." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. A. W. Downer (Dufferin-Simcoe)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, we have a very distinguished visitor in the House this morning, a man who has served here as a member, and as a member of the cabinet, and rendered great service to this province and to this country. I refer to Mr. John Foote, VC." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Motions.", "Mr. Winkler moves that when the House adjourns today, it stands adjourned until Monday, March 25.", "Motion agreed to." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Introduction of bills." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. F. Drea (Scarborough Centre)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the purpose of the bill is to establish a set of safeguards to protect individual members of trade unions in a number of situations:", "Part two deals with the right to know the financial dealings of union officers with union funds and with employers with whom there is a relationship.", "Part three deals with insider reporting, the intention of which is basically to take the labour racketeer out of the sphere of the Attorney General’s ministry and put him in the sphere of the Ministry of Labour and to take the company spy, about whom so much was heard today, out of the sphere of the Attorney General and put him as well within the sphere of the Minister of Labour, along with fines of up to $25,000." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the purpose of the bill is hopefully to reduce the number of accidents in industry and to allow employers and employees to share in the input on safety matters throughout industry in Ontario." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the purpose of the bill is to relieve persons from liability in respect of voluntary emergency first aid assistance or medical services rendered at or near the scene of an accident or other sudden emergency." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Before the orders of the day I should like to point out to the hon. members that the present group of pages are serving their last day with us today. They have done a very good job for us. As is customary, I should like to read the names of the individual pages into the record. I might say that we do send each page a copy of Hansard later on with the names appearing there.", "They are Tony Ali, Clarkson; Stephen Armitage, Toronto; Ron Bambrick, Orono; Richard Bennett, Toronto; Lisa Charters, Oakville; Emily Cole, Peterborough; Allen Goss, Nestleton; Tom Harrington, Toronto; Richy Haus, Weston; Krissy Howe, Oakville; Bruce Manors, Oakville; Martha Milne, Kincardine; Ian Mitchell, Weston; Marcia Morris, Islington; Scott Perkin, Mississauga; Denise Ryan, Toronto; Susan Skolnik, Willowdale; Michael Walkington, Scarborough; Charles Williams, Brampton, and Cathryn Willson, Dutton.", "Orders of the day." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, before the member of the Liberal Party begins, could the minister say a few words about the general federal-provincial agreement and what other projects we can expect shortly arising out of it, in addition to the one which is specifically facilitated by this bill?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I think perhaps if the hon. minister wishes to make those comments before he comments finally after all members have spoken, it would be acceptable." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. D. R. Irvine (Minister without Portfolio)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I gave a general outline when I introduced the bill. I think it would be more in order if I heard from the official opposition party first. Then I can answer the spokesman for the NDP in the course." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the comments I would make on this bill follow generally the views that the member for Ottawa Centre has just raised. We have seen in the Throne Speech the announcement with respect particularly to the decision by this government to enter into this form of agreement with the federal Department of Regional Economic Expansion. Certainly it’s pleasing to all of us to see that the city of Cornwall has received the amount of $14 million as the first beneficiary of this particular kind of developmental programme entered into with the federal government.", "When one can see the future of a city like Cornwall with the development of an industrial park, the civic centre and also some tourist and recreational areas, then I think it is apparent that in an area such as Cornwall that has had some serious unemployment and job opportunity problems in the last few years this programme is most welcome and I believe most worthwhile. I too am interested, of course, in the future development of this land of a programme because there are a number of other communities, notably in northern Ontario, that can, and I hope will, benefit from the experience of the Cornwall project.", "The minister announced in bringing forward this bill for first reading that this item will allow the general legislation to be changed so that future agreements can be entered into by the provincial government, presumably whenever certain projects are thought to be worthwhile. I would appreciate hearing from the minister just what the general terms and conditions are going to be that will allow municipalities to consider whether or not they too would be able to enter into these kinds of developmental projects.", "In addition, I would appreciate hearing from the minister, if he is able to tell us this, what other municipalities particularly are developing plans, or at least preliminary stages, hopefully to take advantage of this kind of project. Is there a fixed amount of money that is available to us or will each project be looked upon on its own merits and funds made available on whatever basis it may be from the federal government?", "Then, finally, can the minister tell us the length of the term that these programmes are expected to be available, so that municipalities will be able to know how and when they will be able to take advantage of this kind of a project?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Ottawa Centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "I have a number of questions about this as well, Mr. Speaker. I think the comments that are made in the material that was released at the time of the signing of the Cornwall agreement are really rather an indictment of what has been happening in regional development in the province over the last seven or eight years, let’s say, since the introduction of the Design for Development policy back in 1966.", "Here’s what the federal and provincial governments agreed to say about eastern Ontario and about northern Ontario when the agreement was signed last month in Cornwall. They mention the fact that Ontario is among the most prosperous of the 10 provinces and on an overall basis. But then they say in fact:", "The rate of development of northern Ontario and a significant portion of eastern Ontario has not kept pace with that in the province as a whole or in Canada generally. Unemployment rates and per capita income levels in these areas compare unfavourably with the corresponding provincial and national averages.", "They refer to the relatively narrow range of economic activities in the north, consisting mainly of exploitation and export of mineral and forest products. They talk about the relative lack of processing facilities in service operations which acted as a serious constraint on the number of income and employment opportunities -- that’s in the north.", "They talk about the serious lack of public services -- this is in the north. They talk about the overall consequences of that, reflected in such indicators as a rate of population growth approximately one-quarter of the provincial figure, a below-average rate of labour force participation, particularly on the part of females, and a relatively high rate of unemployment. Then, turning to eastern Ontario, the federal-provincial economists and evaluators who had participated in deciding on the outlines of this general agreement said:", "The underlying cause of the region’s comparatively unfavourable unemployment and per capita income records is a decline in labour requirements of the traditionally important agricultural and forest industries, together with a relative lack of growth in manufacturing job opportunities.", "While new industries have been attracted to the area of eastern Ontario, they have served largely “to counterbalance the disappearance or decline of older manufacturing establishments in the wood-using and textile fields.”", "Ottawa had mitigated the region’s unimpressive economic performance because of the federal government growth in Ottawa, but Ottawa’s economic influence had been relatively localized and had been insufficient to dominate the regional totals. Tourism in eastern Ontario has not yet developed to the point where it is generating substantial income and employment opportunities outside the major centres. Within some parts of eastern Ontario there is an overdependence on a narrow range of economic activities. This lack of a diversified economic structure has frequently meant instability and unemployment.", "You know, this isn’t an NDP speech, Mr. Speaker, although it certainly may sound like one. This is an official document which in fact was obviously released with the approval of the Treasurer (Mr. White) and Mr. Andras, and of the other people -- political people and bureaucrats -- who were involved in the drawing up of this general agreement.", "As I am sure the Minister without Portfolio expected, we don’t intend to oppose the specific requirements of this specific bill here, but I think that he and you, Mr. Speaker, will accept that this is one opportunity, and maybe the only opportunity that we have in the Legislature to discuss not only the specific question of whether municipalities should be permitted to sign agreements relative to this new federal-provincial programme, but also relative to the government’s failure and successes in the regional developments which municipalities are now being allowed to take a part in.", "I would like to remind the minister that long before he or I came into the Legislature the government launched its Design for Development programme. In fact it was back in 1966 that the then Premier, Mr. Robarts, called for good regional planning and made a number of statements about the way in which the regional planning process would work in order to encourage me less favoured regions of the province, and that, as you know, Mr. Speaker, is mainly the eastern and northern parts of the province.", "Mr. Robarts talked about the need for planning and co-ordinating the timing and impacts of large and expanding investment expenditures, public investments. He talked about a central authority which could cut across both departmental lines and county and municipal boundaries in meeting and solving regional problems.", "He has said that regional development policies would be instrumental aspects of a broader provincial growth policy. He has said that appropriate regional development required comprehensive planning. He spoke of the need for regional land use planning. He spoke about the planning, referring not only to land use but also to the social and economic potential of the region and its centres and an approach that would concentrate on developing these centres in the interests of the region as a whole. He spoke of the need for the regions of Ontario to develop their potential for specialization.", "Mr. Robarts said that the smoothing out of conspicuous regional economic inequalities would be sought through the regional distribution of government budgetary expenditures, through the provision of technical, financial and administrative services, and through programmes selected to encourage labour mobility, tourism, agriculture, resource development, manufacturing and other forms of economic activity.", "He spoke of the need of an effective two-way system of communication, and he spoke of the need for new redevelopment structures, but ones that would not disturb the existing power and authority of municipal and county councils within the regions.", "That was back in 1966, Mr. Speaker, and more words have been spawned and spoken by the government about its Design for Development programme in the intervening years. If you look to the points that I have enumerated out of that original statement though, the tragic and overwhelming conclusion you come to is that in fact virtually none of those things have been done, or if they are being done it is only in the very recent past.", "We have the business about the creation and then disbandment of regional development councils over that period of time. We don’t have an effective two-way system of communication. In most of the less-favoured regions -- in fact I think in all of them, apart from maybe the past year in northwestern Ontario -- there has been no attempt at programming government expenditures in line with regional development priorities. There is no broad provincial growth policy eight years after Mr. Robarts said his government was going to have it. We don’t have regional land use planning at this time. We have some abortive attempts. There are people over in the Frost block -- is it the Whitney block? -- who are working in that direction, but right now we don’t have any land use planning on either a provincial or on a regional basis.", "There has been no planning of major government expenditures, which is why we have abortions such as the Arnprior dam which won’t create a single new job, and yet it’s the largest single government expenditure in eastern Ontario in the life of this Parliament. It’s why we have projects such as Maple Mountain, a ski resort in an area where for 30 or 40 days out of every ski season, as I understand it, the climate is simply unfavourable and is such as to discourage completely anybody from skiing. We have Old Fort William, an historical recreation of an old-time fur traders’ fort, a tourist attraction which was built eight miles inland from where the fort used to lie. And that’s it, Mr. Speaker; that’s it.", "That is the kind of development that we are getting. There is not effective regional planning yet. I accept and understand that there are certain difficulties in all of this. I do not accept and I do not understand the kinds of delays that have taken place. The reason for those delays very simply, Mr. Speaker, is that there has not been a real commitment on the part of the government. It conjured with words, just as it conjures with words over the housing problem. It conjures with words over Artistic Woodwork. It conjures with words over the need for decent labour relations legislation. It conjures with words over the problems of teachers’ negotiations and so on and on and on.", "There is no commitment as far as regional development is concerned. That is how we come to this position where almost eight years to the day after Mr. Robarts first announced the Design for Development programme, we have an implementation of regional development policy in eastern Ontario specifically, but one which comes as a result of an initiative taken not by this government but by the federal government under the Department of Regional Economic Expansion.", "It so happens that the amount of money involved is pitiful, $14 million for one particular community which has had more than its share of problems; $14 million after eight years. This is what is finally cranked out of the government’s regional development plans or proposals for eastern Ontario, and that’s it.", "Mr. Lamoureaux, the Minister of Labour (Mr. Guindon), and the other members from the St. Lawrence front have been aware of the problems at Cornwall. They were there when the now Minister without Portfolio (Mr. Irvine) responsible for municipal affairs was the mayor of the neighbouring municipality of Prescott. The member for Stormont (Mr. Guindon) has been a member and, in fact, a minister for most of the past eight years. Certainly my party and other parties have been’ weeping over the situation of Cornwall. There are unemployment rates of 10, 11, 13 and 15 per cent, of a very high rate of people on welfare and problem after problem in a region and in an area and in a city which, frankly, should not have suffered and need not have suffered the way it was, given adequate provincial support and adequate regional planning.", "Here you have a community which for 10 years has been suffering exceptionally low growth and exceptionally high unemployment, which according to the analysis which is made available has not even been able to provide jobs for its own people. It’s had a high rate of migration of its own people and certainly hasn’t been able to provide jobs for the changing rural sector: It is the same in Glengarry county where the milk industry has declined by half over the last 10 years. The number of dairy farmers has gone down by half over that period of time.", "All that has been happening in that community, and yet it’s on the major rail link between Toronto and Montreal. It’s within a day’s truck transport distance of the largest single market in Canada. A market, I believe, of probably about 10 million people is available within a day’s truck journey of Cornwall. It probably has a larger market within a day’s round trip by truck than any other city in the country, because of its position part way between Toronto and Montreal. It is in a similar position, therefore, with Brockville, Kingston and Belleville -- cities that have not suffered the same problems as Cornwall.", "For that matter, it is also within a day’s truck transport distance of New York City and the entire eastern seaboard of the United States. It is, therefore, at the core of a market of not just 10 million in Canada, but of an additional 50 million or 60 million people in the United States. It has rail; it has Highway 401; it’s within an hour and 20 minutes’ drive of Ottawa International Airport and within an hour’s drive of the Dorval international airport with air freight services which are the best in Canada, and it’s on the major water transportation route for this country, the St. Lawrence Seaway.", "With all of these advantages, this government has not been able to do anything for eight years until eventually the federal government comes along with the proposals for the joint programme which we’re being asked to permit Cornwall to get involved in.", "One just sort of says, “Well, what gives?” What on earth is it that has made the regional policy development of the government so laggard that nothing can be done as far as that particular area is concerned?", "One also has to say that this is fine as a one-shot effort. I have to assume that the particular projects which are being underwritten under this DREE agreement -- or infrastructure for the community centre, the civic centre and arena, the large industrial park and the tourist facilities -- have been well thought through in terms of Cornwall’s particular needs. I don’t profess to be an expert on those particular things.", "I think it’s fair to ask the ministers that since a substantial portion of the investment is going into a single industry site -- I think that’s the phrase; in other words, preparing the site for one very large industry -- then what kinds of industry are in mind for that particular site, or is there a particular industry which is waiting in the wings until Cornwall signs this particular agreement, and which will then come forward with a major investment for that particular area?", "I might remind you, Mr. Speaker, that some time last year during the debate on Stelco’s going into Haldimand-Norfolk and all the disruption that that was going to create in that area -- an area which essentially did not need growth the way it is needed in eastern Ontario -- members of this party offered a suggestion to the minister to locate the Stelco mill right in Grenville county, an area which has also suffered from declining employment. In fact, we offered it within sight of the minister’s home overlooking the St. Lawrence River in Prescott, and he refused. That should go on the record -- that the minister refused a steel mill right there on his doorstep in Grenville county. He wouldn’t go to bat for his people, let alone the people in Cornwall or anywhere else.", "You know, it seems a bit perverse that the government goes along with a development down in Haldimand-Norfolk of, I’ve forgotten, $400 million or $500 million worth of investment in an area which may need a few jobs, but which essentially could be easily integrated into the Toronto-Hamilton-St. Catharines industrial complex without a need for major investment, yet at the same time it is preparing a large industrial site at Cornwall which I presume, among other things, could have accepted the steel mill which is instead going where it is less needed.", "Maybe the minister can talk about that. But why on earth wouldn’t this government have gone to Stelco and said, “Look, we really do care about Cornwall. If you want to have this kind of investment and the kind of spinoffs that come from it, why don’t you bring your steel mill to Cornwall and we’ll help you? Here’s a site. It’s all ready. We’ll have it ready for you in six months. And we’ll even talk to the opposition and get their co-operation in getting the bill passed.” But no, this government doesn’t believe in that.", "That raises, of course, a very fundamental question about the growth policy or growth strategy of the government. I’ve said that there is none. If there is any to speak of, it is a use of carrots and only of carrots. In other words, the government will use certain types of incentives from time to time in order to try to encourage the location of industries in areas where it feels that they ought to go. Those incentives are relatively limited; in fact, I have some figures that suggest to me that the incentives are, if anything, a bit perverse in their application, because they seem to be giving more to those who already have than to those who have not. These are figures for 1973 performance loans made by the Ontario Development Corp. and the Northern Ontario Development Corp.", "I recognize there are other programmes of the ODC but, nevertheless, this is how the government seeks to help smaller entrepreneurs to locate, presumably in areas that have some need for this kind of growth:", "In 1972-1973, Brantford got $580,000 worth of these performance loans, Bowmanville got $230,000, Cobourg got $280,000, Trenton got $700,000 and Belleville got $540,000 worth of these particular loans. But then we come to Cornwall, which of all the communities that I mentioned, I think everyone would acknowledge is the community that was most in need of new jobs and of new industries. Maybe it could have used a few entrepreneurs of its own. Poor old Cornwall got two loans worth only $71,000, which is a third of what Bowmanville got, a fourth of what Cobourg got and as little as a tenth of what was given to Trenton, a community which is already doing --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. F. Guindon (Minister of Labour)", "text": [ "Cornwall got $7.2 million from this government two weeks ago." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Two weeks ago? All right. The hon. minister is finally getting through to them, but it has taken an awful long time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur)", "text": [ "He thought his seat was in danger." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "That’s right. And other things are happening in Cornwall. I recognize and acknowledge that. There’s $14 million -- oh wait, is the $7 million the provincial share on this programme?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "Exactly." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Wait a minute. That’s double counting. I’ve already given credit to the member for Grenville-Dundas (Mr. Irvine), and to the government for doing it. This minister can’t claim it too." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. D. R. Timbrell (Minister without Portfolio)", "text": [ "If the hon. member can repeat himself why can’t the hon. minister?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Okay, they got $7 million two weeks ago. But what was the government doing for Cornwall in 1973, 1972, 1971, 1970, 1969, 1968, 1967 and 1966, when the Design for Development programme was announced initially? What kind of record is it for the government that during these times, when we have had basically high employment in the province, a prosperous province, pretty high rates of growth and so forth, that the rate of unemployment in Cornwall has consistently been around nine and 10 per cent and, from time to time, has gone as high as 13 and 14 per cent? Where has the Minister of Labour been all of that time?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "Well, he was on the job. It is now down to seven per cent." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Yes, now. But it has taken nil of that time, Mr. Speaker, for that to happen." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "In one of his previous incarnations he was busy with Old Fort William." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the particular programmes mentioned in the general development agreement that is being made with the province, include this Cornwall area agreement, which I might point out is not $7 million outright. I would point out to this minister and to the Minister of Labour that, in fact, the Cornwall agreement calls for the expenditure of only $4 million in 1974-1975, of which $2 million will come from the provincial government. This isn’t a wild amount of money. When the Minister of Labour goes back to his people in the 1975 campaign -- supposing there’s a spring campaign in 1975 -- by that time the provincial government, over the life of this Parliament, will have spent the grand total of $2 million in encouraging development in Cornwall. It’s all going to be jam tomorrow." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "Plus the fact that we will have a very heavy industry settling down by that time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "They will have an announcement of a very heavy industry. This is a government that lives by announcements. I’m pleased that a heavy industry is going into Cornwall if that will mean jobs and economic development for an area that needs it. I’m pleased, naturally, by anything like this that helps a city in eastern Ontario or the region as a whole. The major investment, $8 million, however, under this particular programme won’t be until 1975-1976." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "Man does not live by announcements alone." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "That’s right. And then there is a further $2 million in 1976-1977. Since the Minister of Labour mentions it, we should look at the fact that the single industry site in the westend of Cornwall, which obviously is the location for the heavy industry that he is talking about, and which is attracting $3.4 million of federal-provincial investment, will have only $900,000 of federal-provincial investment in 1974-1975. To be more specific; of $2.4 million to be spent on the trunk services, the sanitary sewers, water mains, and so on to service that site, only one-third of that amount will be spent in 1974-1975. An additional $1.1 million will be in 1975-1976, and then, finally, $400,000 in 1976-1977.", "The pattern of that expenditure, Mr. Speaker, suggests to me that the heavy industry site in the westend of Cornwall will not be ready for the new industry to go into production until, at the very earliest, the beginning of 1976. While there may be construction jobs in the area prior to that, there will not be full-time permanent employment created in Cornwall until well after the 1975 election, whenever that election is to be held.", "I am open to correction on these points, and I hope that the hon. member for Stormont gets involved in the debate as well as the hon. member for Grenville-Dundas. But nevertheless, it is a matter of I am tomorrow. By the time that heavy industry opens up at Cornwall it will have been a full 10 years, Mr. Speaker, from the time that the original announcement was made about what the government is going to do.", "As far as eastern Ontario is concerned, there is no other indication in the federal-provincial agreement that the government has a programme or a plan for aiding other areas. I would ask, specifically, what about Pembroke? What about Smiths Falls or Perth or Smiths Falls-Perth taken together, two other locations in eastern Ontario where it would seem to me to make sense to be encouraging industrial development away from the immediate economic orbit of the city of Ottawa?", "The same questions present themselves when one looks at what has been announced about the general development agreement as far as it affects northern Ontario. It is very vague, and what is said here doesn’t give me much confidence that economic development in and around the cities of northern Ontario is at all involved in what the government is talking about. It seems to me that the announcements we have had recently about economic development in the northwest of the province have come about, not as a result of government policies, but have come about simply because of the changing economic circumstances of the pulp and paper industry which have made investments in those areas now more favourable than, say, when the Design for Development for northwestern Ontario was prepared.", "The forest-based industry problem in northern Ontario, whether it is northwest or northeast, will only be resolved when the government takes over the cutting operations on Crown-owned land, and when it then contracts to ensure that there is an adequate supply of wood fibre and of wood for the various uses, whether it be lumber mills or pulp or paper or further production and processing, rather than leaving this in individual hands. The hon. member for Thunder Bay (Mr. Stokes) has told me that there are stands of timber which are rotting in northern Ontario because they happen to be on limits controlled by companies that don’t happen to have a need for them, while, on the other hand, there are industrial investments that are simply not going forward in his region because of the fact that the entrepreneurs can’t get a sufficient wood fibre guarantee. There is not that kind of commitment in the general development agreement that has been made with the federal government, obviously, because the provincial government Tories and the federal government Liberals are constantly hung up by the fact that they are so wedded to the private sector that they will not act for the benefit of the people of northern Ontario or of the rest of the province.", "Then, Mr. Speaker, when you look in more detail at the rest of the programme, there are some useful comments about single industry towns, but the other material -- industrial incentives, the air strips programme, the roads programme, and the rural development programme -- all exist right now. The pattern being followed is simply the old government game; if it wants to announce something new it brings everything else in as well in order to pump up the package and make it look better than it was before.", "The final reference is to something new which is special project initiatives, again very vaguely couched. The only thing I can really see it applying to is the Maple Mountain campaign and Maple Mountain proposals which have been made by the Minister of Industry and Tourism (Mr. Bennett).", "Mr. Speaker, it seems to us, in this party, the government cannot only work with incentives in ensuring growth in the less favoured regions of the province. This is the fundamental mistake being made by the government because of the fact it is wedded so completely to the private sector. If one gives a guy a few bucks, he won’t move. Give him a lot of bucks and he’s got a ripoff and that’s essentially the position of the government as it stands right now.", "When incentives are given to industry they should be accompanied by part-ownership on the part of the public in the project actually being built. We should get value for money in that way and we should have public-private partnerships. In addition, Mr. Speaker, the development policy for the less favoured regions has got to be part of an overall provincial growth plan, and that doesn’t exist right now.", "A growth plan will limit, will set targets for growth in the more favoured regions, particularly the Toronto-centred region, which will aim at limiting the growth of these regions, of the Toronto-centred region. It is choking on its growth right now. There is too much growth here while Cornwall and other areas in eastern Ontario are starving for lack of growth. Certainly the north is starving for lack of growth.", "There are many footloose industries which are settling in the Toronto area, the Hamilton area, the Brantford, Kitchener and London areas because they are nice places for the executives to live. Or because the existing plant is there right now and it is simpler to expand the existing plant than put the new process, the new facility, in some other part of the province.", "The reasons being advanced or used within industry to justify these plant locations are often pretty trivial. Sometimes, in fact, it just isn’t economic. There are economic advantages to locating in other parts of the province but they are being ignored by the management. If they are in a fairly uncompetitive field where the profit margins are pretty substantial then, in fact, there is not the incentive to cut the final dollar off their costs. Therefore, the executives don’t want to transfer out of Don Mills or out of some nice suburb in Kitchener or London, wherever the plant happens to be, and locate there.", "There was the announcement the other day of the location of Philips, I think it was, which has decided to set up or establish a plant on provincially-owned industrial land in the Malvern area. The sale price of the land was something like $2 million and the price per acre was in the order of, I don’t know, maybe $25,000, $35,000, $40,000 per acre, an incredible sum by contrast with the prices charged for industrial land elsewhere in the province. The company felt it could do it rather than face the problems of developing skilled manpower and attracting the labour pool in other parts of the province.", "Frankly, the problems are not insurmountable. There are lots of willing hands and willing brains in other parts of the province and the problem of developing skills can be overcome once there is a will. There are no sticks being used by the province in order to encourage companies now locating in the Toronto or Hamilton areas even to look at other parts of the province.", "As part of its growth policy, Mr. Speaker, the government should not only be providing certain types of incentives to help offset any additional costs of locating in the northern part of the province or in the east. It should also be providing certain kinds of disincentives in order to make it less favourable to locate in the Toronto-centred region. Those disincentives could be in the form of an employment tax or some other kind of tax to be paid by an industry locating in this particular area, or they could well be in the form of a straight licensing of new employment opportunities being created in the Toronto-Hamilton area. Any employer then who wished to create more than, say, 25 new jobs would be compelled to seek a licence, maybe even to pay for a licence with the provincial government. The allocation of these licences would then be a part of the provincial development and growth plan.", "I accept completely that under no circumstances should any government in Ontario say to an individual, “No, you can’t come to Metro.” If young people from northern Ontario or eastern Ontario want to come to Toronto to study for a few years or to work for a few years, that’s fine. I think that’s good and it’s a part of a person’s education. In many cases though, these young people as they grow up, marry and begin to have families, are saying to themselves, “We’d like to go back to Prescott, “We’d like to go back to Pembroke,” “We’d like to go back to Kapuskasing,” “We’d like to go back to Thunder Bay.” In many cases they are finding that there are not adequate work opportunities in those areas, that the cost of housing is as beyond reach in those areas that they stem from as it is in Toronto, and that they are trapped down here because this is where the jobs are.", "If, in fact, Mr. Speaker, you control the creation of employment in the Toronto area, and then equally encourage those industries to locate in the less-favoured parts of the province, if that is accompanied by a planned development in areas like Cornwall and Prescott and Cardinal, like North Bay, like Sudbury, Timmins or Kapuskasing, or Thunder Bay, in order to ensure that the jobs are becoming available, that housing at reasonable cost is becoming available, that the other kinds of infrastructures are being put into the ground, that the kinds of social amenities we expect, in terms of be it arenas or cultural facilities as are being built at Cornwall, are coming on-stream, then you will see a real renaissance in the smaller communities in the less-favoured regions of the province.", "But we have not seen that from the government right now and the basic and fundamental reason is because it will not -- the minister and his government -- interfere with the decisions of the private sector, even where it’s clear that the social costs of having industry continue to crowd into the Toronto area are tremendous and are growing apace day by day and week by week. You can chart it readily in that way if you look, say, at the escalation of housing prices in the Toronto area.", "The other point I wanted to raise more specifically in relation to the bill, Mr. Speaker, is that this bill permits municipalities to enter into agreements with the Crown regarding regional economic development, and also with the approval of the minister -- I am not sure which minister; I suppose it’s the Treasurer -- to also enter into any ancillary or subsidiary agreements with any person as is required as a result of entering into the agreement with the Crown in right of Ontario.", "Now, it waives the requirement for a local consultation in the form of a referendum, and also waives the requirement for participation in the form of the access the public has when a matter has to be approved by the Ontario Municipal Board. That is the effect of these two particular amendments. It gives the power to the municipality to pass bylaws for the effect of implementing these general development agreements and it waives the necessity to go through two established, if perhaps somewhat archaic, means of public consultation or public participation.", "It seems to us that, in fact, there should be a guarantee of public involvement written into the bill at the same time that the permission is being given to the municipality to bypass the Ontario Municipal Board and to bypass the referendum. We don’t really disagree with that part of it; we do disagree with the fact that there has been no attempt by the government to find any alternative.", "What this means, Mr. Speaker, is that since there is not a requirement that municipalities meet to discuss issues like this in public meeting -- there is no such requirement in Ontario law at this moment -- it means that a municipality like Cornwall or Kapuskasing or some other community like that can meet in camera, the members of council can decide what to do, they can negotiate with the provincial people, they can negotiate with the federal people, and all of that can be done with no public consultation whatsoever. Eventually, for a very brief minute or two, the council is required to meet in public session in order to actually pass the bylaws which are referred to in articles 293 and 352 of the Municipal Act and affected by this particular bill.", "Now, that plainly just isn’t adequate, particularly where you have some pretty fundamental decisions being made affecting the economic future of communities which have had a lot of problems, such as the community of Cornwall.", "I must accept that it runs part of a piece with the whole government approach to economic planning. There have been a number of meetings, I gather, held on the sly between the economic planners for eastern Ontario at Queen’s Park and local planning staffs and other local bureaucrats like that.", "Obviously there have been meetings held with the city of Cornwall, the provincial people and the federal people, over this particular plan. But there has not been enough public consultation. I have to confess to a bit of ignorance as to what was done in Cornwall as far as public discussion of this particular proposal is concerned. My recollection is that the major. Mayor Lumley, a fine guy, sort of kept on saying, “Look, it’s coming, it’s coming, it’s coming.” As is the pattern in these depressed communities, there is a constant pattern of promises, promises, and eventually for every five promises you get one new industry or one new federal or provincial government intervention. That’s what happens.", "Another community could close off the public involvement completely and it would not be breaking the law which is proposed to be passed by this provincial government.", "In other words, this bill permits councils to evade local involvement. It happens that, under the way that the powers adhere in the Crown in the right of Ontario, the general development agreement signed between Canada and Ontario is not a matter of debate. It doesn’t get tabled in the Legislature. It is only obliquely -- because it happens to require a change in the Municipal Act -- that we get to debate it in the Legislature prior to the minister’s estimates, which may not come up for close to another year. I just suggest to the minister and to the government as a whole that an amendment be passed on committee stage of this bill to require public consultation at the municipal level and that the government clearly states its intentions as far as public involvement in further agreements that will be drawn up -- particularly with reference to the north, where there are many communities that are not organized -- in order to ensure that there is full public consultation prior to the entering into of agreements." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Ruston (Essex-Kent)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a couple of little points I want to raise on this bill. It is, I suppose, a far-reaching bill to some extent. It brings the federal government into almost direct and yet indirect relationship with municipalities, and this is something that the province of course would never allow -- the federal government becoming involved in local municipalities.", "This is something that is going to have to be expanded on in the future. I think the federal government, in more ways than this maybe, is going to have to be involved in the cities and maybe the time is not too far away when income tax and other forms of taxation will probably have to be poured back into the cities to even keep them viable. We see in the States what’s happened there to many of the cities, where they are going down and without federal aid they may not survive at all hardly.", "In this plan it would appear that it will be covering eastern and northern Ontario. So, being in southwestern Ontario I don’t expect that there would be too much involved now with DREE. There are some plans administered in our own area with regard to the protection of agricultural land under ARDA, which is administered through the DREE programme, and we do get in- volved in that part.", "What I am wondering about is what some of these projects may be with regard to the provincial and federal governments in the municipalities. I am assuming they could be sewage works, watermains, health centres, medical centres and recreational facilities and so forth. In the last year or so we have had a federal-provincial winter capital works programme. The money comes through DREE for those projects, and I know we have been entitled under that programme to obtain some of those funds. But as nearly as I can understand from the bill and the minister’s remarks at the introduction of it, this programme is to be funded predominantly by the provincial and federal governments and more or less with agreements, but not necessarily finances from the municipality.", "Now, I am concerned with these type of things and that the eastern and northern parts of the province develop properly. I don’t think that I, as a southwesterner, if there are lots of opportunities for jobs, can sit back in my easy chair and see northern Ontario or eastern Ontario suffering from a high unemployment rate. If that happens, then they cannot buy the things we produce and then we are all in trouble. That is why I say that I am a Canadian first, and then an Ontarian. I don’t think that it is any good to me as an Ontarian to be in a rich province if somebody in Newfoundland or New Brunswick can’t afford to have the benefits of life that we have.", "So we have to consider that we are all one country in that way.", "Now, perhaps there are other things that could be done to get industry to come into these eastern and northern areas. The previous speaker did mention something about a tax on employees, the number of employees who would be hired if they came into already built-up areas. That might be feasible.", "I think there are other areas that could be explored. One might be the amount of tax that they would pay as a corporation tax; maybe there should be a lower rate. Rather than just provide giveaway programmes, I would be more inclined to think that we should be looking at the tax structure for the number of years that they first go into these areas, and perhaps favour them with benefits in their income tax structure and items like that.", "We also should be looking at the freight rate structure in these areas; that could have a major effect on encouraging industry to go into those areas.", "Those are some of the items that I had wanted to mention. I think I would look forward to hearing the minister’s remarks when he winds up the speeches." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Does any other hon. member wish to speak on this?", "The member for Thunder Bay." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Speaker, I feel it incumbent upon me to say a few words about this bill, inasmuch as it does deal with the DREE programme at the federal level and the participation by the Ministry of the Treasury, Economics and Intergovernmental Affairs, which is responsible for the regional development programmes in the Province of Ontario.", "The eastern part of the province, particularly Cornwall, at this point hasn’t reached the stage in the Design for Development programme for Ontario that would give us an overview of what might take place and what the government sees as the priorities for regional development in eastern Ontario. However, I am familiar with the way they have established their priorities in the only two economic regions in the Province of Ontario where they have been studied to the extent that this government has accepted as government policy the recommendations contained in the Design for Development for the Toronto-centred region and the economic region that is known as northwestern Ontario.", "This is the kind of a bill that no one in his right mind would oppose. It is the kind of development that has been sorely needed in eastern Ontario for many and many a year. It is the kind of development that I have been advocating for northwestern Ontario for as long as I have had the pleasure to sit in this Legislature-and will continue to do so.", "Because of the inability of the DREE programme at the federal level to effect the kinds of changes and to offer the kinds of incentives that really make the difference when you are trying to entice an industry, whether it be primary or secondary, to establish in any given location, one has to question the ability of that programme at the federal level to effect any kinds of change that would be meaningful. So, while we do welcome the implication of this bill, I think the jury is still out on how effective DREE has been in the past and how effective it may be in the future.", "I want to refer to an article that appeared some months ago in the Globe and Mail as a result of a study that was done by Prof. David Springate, a professor of finance at the University of Tennessee, and was based on his observations on research for his doctorate thesis in business administration at Harvard University. The article had this to say, Mr. Speaker:", "Grants under the Act are the main method by which the federal Department of Regional Economic Expansion provides incentives for the construction or expansion of secondary manufacturing plants in disadvantaged regions. Dr. Springate looked at 31 grants made as the pro- gramme got under way in 1970 and early 1971.", "He said: “Such a study can yield indicative findings.” He maintains that some of the investment decisions were pursued in considerable detail. His assessment of the investment decision process of the 31 companies, says the article, is that:", "“By and large DREE’s grants did not affect the area in which companies made their plant location choices. If companies do not consider parts of the country other than those they normally would have chosen, DREE is not going to be able to disperse or direct manufacturing activity to less desirable places on a broad scale.”", "[He went on further to say]:", "“While incentive grants may not greatly affect plant location decisions, they may be justified if they speed up investment. But they do not have the effect of speeding up the planning. Overall, the field results suggest that grants are relatively unimportant in affecting the initial design or consideration of investment proposals, and strategic or technical factors rather than financial considerations tend to predominate at this stage.”", "Indeed, it may be more accurate to say that the programme delays investment rather than promotes it, as the government takes some months to consider applications for grants.", "I have had some knowledge of the incentive programme at both the federal and the provincial levels, Mr. Speaker.", "On one occasion, Kimberly-Clark corporation was to establish a tissue plant someplace in the Province of Ontario where it would use the wood pulp from northern Ontario to feed this tissue plant. I think it’s accurate to say that the then Minister of Lands and Forests, the hon. member for Cochrane North (Mr. Brunelle), and myself were trying to persuade that company that it should have an even greater degree of processing much closer to the source of the raw material. Of course, we were suggesting that that tissue plant be constructed at either Terrace Bay on the limits of Kimberly-Clark or in the Kapuskasing area based on the Spruce Falls operation of that company in the Kapuskasing area.", "We were unsuccessful in our efforts. In spite of any incentives that might have been forthcoming at the federal or the provincial levels, nothing we could say or offer to them would have persuaded them to build other than where they did ultimately build the plant, and that was in Huntsville.", "On asking the president of that company at that particular time what kind of incentives we would have had to offer them in order to persuade them they should build their tissue-making facility much closer to the resource, thereby providing increased economic viability for those northern communities and in the process creating more jobs. The president at that time said, “Nothing any government at whatever level, nothing that they would have done, would have persuaded us to build it other than where we did build it down at Huntsville.”", "He said it was a matter of transportation costs. It was availability of labour at a price that they were prepared to pay, and much closer to their traditional markets. If this is the attitude that’s being taken by all industrial and commercial enterprises at this point in time, I think that we have to take a much more realistic look at the effectiveness of the DREE programme that we are becoming a part of here in this bill, or the programmes under the aegis of the Ontario Development Corp.", "When you’re talking about the DREE programme as it affected the establishment of a processing capacity in the Timmins area, where Texasgulf has brought on stream its Kidd Creek property, it’s my understanding that that would have been done there in any event. The $8 million or so project that was provided by DREE would, of necessity, been done there in any event. When you look at some of the so-called incentive programmes under Ontario Development Corp., where $500,000 in forgivable loans in two instances were provided to Kraft to assist them in their food plants in eastern Ontario, based on raw milk that they had in such abundance there, where else would they have established the plants? When you consider the $500,000 forgivable loan that was provided to Allied Chemicals to process a sulphuric acid plant in the Sudbury region, where else would they have established an enterprise that was to use the abundance of sulphur that emanates from the operations of Falconbridge and International Nickel?", "I am just wondering, Mr. Speaker, just how effective this kind of programme is going to be. As I look over the information that was made available in the joint announcement released by Hon. Don Jamieson and the Treasurer, it’s a very sophisticated package whereby they do in a very, very broad sense say the kinds of things that they would hope for by way of economic development for the Cornwall region. There’s no evidence in at the present time that any real benefits are going to accrue. They do state that they are going to spend several million dollars in order to try to provide the kind of incentives. There’s no indication in the joint programme that it will be restricted to purely Canadian companies.", "I have a small excerpt here from the Hansard, a record of the debates over in Ottawa. I want to refer the House briefly to comments made by Hon. Don Jamieson, who is the minister responsible for economic activity and expansion at the federal level. I would like to hearken back to things that he had to say at that time.", "In the region that I know best, the Atlantic provinces, the whole area, all four provinces, are littered, quite literally, with the remnants of foreign-controlled industries that milked the region for whatever they could get out of it and then departed and left us to clean up the mess.", "Now, that’s from the minister who is a co-partner in this programme that we’re speaking of in this bill that’s before us in the Legislature, An Act to amend the Municipal Act.", "As I say, I’m not going to oppose this bill and nobody in this party is about to do so. We are looking for any ray of hope at all by way of a concerted effort by either the provincial or the federal governments to get this whole project under way and to give the people of Cornwall the kind of economic lift that they have looked for so long. If it will provide any economic stimulus, bring them into the mainstream of activities in the province, economically, certainly we’re not going to oppose it and we would hope that it would do the kinds of things that Mr. Jamieson and the Ontario Treasurer hope to achieve.", "I do see in the announcement that was made that they too are going to provide this kind of money for economic activity in northwestern Ontario. There’s no evidence that the DREE programme has been even remotely effective in northwestern Ontario to foster the kind of development that is possible with a much greater processing of the ores and the forest products right on our doorstep; and we would welcome it.", "In the Hedlin Menzies and Associates Ltd. report that was commissioned by the Ministry of Natural Resources a little over three years ago, they quoted some very interesting statistics. They said that six out of every 10 jobs directly and indirectly related to the forest products industry are located in places other than where the resources are located.", "This means that six out of every 10 jobs are located in southern Ontario, or other parts of Canada, with only four jobs out of the 10 located right on the doorstep of the resources.", "I don’t need to tell the members what the implication of that statistic would be if we just reversed that and said six out of every 10 jobs should be located near or on the doorstep of the resources, while the other four should be located elsewhere. We would provide tens of thousands of new jobs in northern Ontario in an area where they need it so badly, where we do have a mass exodus of our youth from the area because there is a lack of job opportunities.", "I’ve spoken about this on many, many occasions in the past, and I just say it for the benefit of the new minister. If this programme that we’re talking about in eastern Ontario is going to have any significant economic effect at all, we’re going to have to insist on the kind of development, the kind of processing, the kind of industrial activity taking place that will have a maximum effect on the economy. It must provide more jobs and more economic viability. There must be a better tax base that will provide the services for people who are responsible for creating this new wealth and provide them with a level of services and a lifestyle to which we feel everybody in the province is entitled, regardless of where they may live." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Port Arthur." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "I don’t want to prolong the debate unduly, Mr. Speaker. I understand there is some urgency about getting the bill through, but I do want to make a couple of specific points about the general agreement between the federal and the provincial government and the priorities that both those governments have with regard to the DREE programme. I want to make some specific references to the city of Thunder Bay.", "I don’t think anyone in the province begrudges the initiatives taken for the Cornwall area, but I would like to point out to the minister that the city of Thunder Bay specifically has been in correspondence with his ministry, with the Treasurer, in regard to the use of some funding through the DREE programme for the development of an economic infrastructure in the city of Thunder Bay.", "I think that if there is a second priority, it must be, as my colleague from the riding of Thunder Bay indicated, all of northwestern Ontario. Northwestern Ontario was ignored in the Throne Speech announcements. Northwestern Ontario has as great a need for sensible economic planning as any other region in the province.", "The city of Thunder Bay specifically was not given any provincial assistance in terms of funding, as were other regional municipalities throughout the province. And although it can be argued that the city of Thunder Bay is not a regional government, it has some of the same problems as the regional governments have in providing services. The land territory of the city is enormous in comparison to most cities, and what were formerly rural parts of the city particularly need tremendous development in terms of sewage treatment plants, bus service, extra policing, the development possibility of industrial parks, and so on.", "I would like to point out to the new minister with these responsibilities, that I have been in direct correspondence with the Treasurer, as has the city clerk of Thunder Bay, stretching back to before December, 1972. And constantly, as my colleague from Ottawa Centre has said, carrots have been vaguely held out to the city in the hope that something would be forthcoming. Finally, by about May of this year, there is the idea that the designation of Thunder Bay under the DREE programme might be used.", "I would hope that the minister could make some definite commitment to Thunder Bay, which is presently outlining its proposals to the ministry. That commitment should be given to them so that the kind of problems they are facing -- over the Hydro thermal generation plant in Thunder Bay and raw sewage being disposed of directly into Lake Superior with the water intake for half of the city in almost exactly the same area -- can be quickly and readily solved before the city gets itself into the kind of environmental problems that are faced here in the “golden horseshoe.”", "Mr. Speaker, people in the outlying areas of northwestern Ontario often look to the city of Thunder Bay in the way that the people in the rest of the province look to the city of Toronto. In many ways the city of Thunder Bay is the metropolitan centre for that huge land mass, that 58 per cent of the province. And it faces a number of the same problems in terms of housing and in terms of the infrastructure I talked about earlier.", "I would urge the minister to consider very seriously that the city of Thunder Bay specifically be given a commitment about the brief, and the proposals it is presenting to the Treasurer with regard to the assistance the provincial government now has received from the federal government under the DREE programme. Thank you very much." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Does any other member wish to speak to this bill? If not, the hon. minister." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine", "text": [ "Thank you Mr. Speaker, I’d like first of all, to express my appreciation at the way that the member for Kitchener (Mr. Breithaupt) made his remarks very direct and brief. I will try to answer them as briefly as possible. Also I’d like to say to the member for Essex-Kent (Mr. Ruston) and Thunder Bay (Mr. Stokes) I appreciate their remarks very much.", "I followed to a degree the remarks that were made by the member for Ottawa Centre (Mr. Cassidy), until he rambled on for such a long time that I’m afraid I lost the point; so I may have to come back to him at a later date. In any event, I’ll try to answer to the best of my ability.", "Certainly I will answer the member for Port Arthur (Mr. Foulds) directly.", "The purpose of this bill, Mr. Speaker, is to advise the members of this House that this is a general development agreement, signed by the federal government and the Province of Ontario in Cornwall on Feb. 26, for a 10-year period. It is the follow-up of further agreements that have been signed by the provinces of Newfoundland, Saskatchewan and Prince Edward Island in the past. We expect to be signing specific agreements which will come out of this bill with the municipalities affected, not only Cornwall but many others in the future.", "We would like to deal, first of all, with the way that the programme operates. The federal government and the provincial government have agreed that the programme should be a programme that will increase jobs in areas of high unemployment and will also improve the quality of the job opportunities in those areas throughout the province which have had slower growth.", "I think I have to go back to the statement which was prepared by the federal government and go through it to some degree, because of some of the remarks that have been made before me today. The problems which we have in northern Ontario have not been forgotten and will be dealt with very specifically by this province in the very near future in certain areas.", "The federal government has said that subsidiary agreements might be developed to allow for advanced planning where a non-renewable resource is on the verge of exhaustion. It also has said there is the matter of transportation facilities that must be considered, the lack of or the inadequate transportation facilities that exist in certain areas. They particularly refer to air transport in the more remote parts. We have agreed that there is the possibility, and it should be very seriously considered by all concerned, of certain airstrips being built to develop some areas, rather the development of highways which are much more expensive in northern Ontario.", "We have mentioned that people who live in isolated communities should be given consideration by the northern subsidiary agreements. However, the final form of agreement, Mr. Speaker, will depend very much on the consultations which we have to have with the local people. This is what the member for Ottawa Centre was saying before, that we apparently have this misunderstanding whereby the people have not been consulted. They certainly are consulted and have been very, very much in the instance of Cornwall.", "I might add at this moment that Cornwall is delighted with the fact that we have the federal government co-operating with the provincial government and the city of Cornwall in an agreement which brings in millions of dollars, much more than what was indicated this morning by the member for Ottawa Centre. As a matter of fact my figures are this, that of $7.1 million up to approximately $8 million by the federal government, the same will be put in by the Province of Ontario and up to $4 to $5 million by the city of Cornwall over a three-year period. which is a very significant amount and will, in my opinion, be the start of a boom for all of eastern Ontario.", "I want to just go through this general agreement in order that the member for Kitchener will understand, first of all what the general development agreement is all about and why it is vague in certain cases. It has to be by necessity. We recognize full well in northern Ontario that there are certain key industries, such as pulp and paper and other types of wood-using manufacturers. We know that the government must take this into consideration by subsidiary agreements with those areas that are involved.", "The federal government has taken into consideration the fact that we -- that is, the province -- have an office in Thunder Bay. They have also opened a new office in Thunder Bay to take care of the problems that we know exist in northern Ontario. I think the hon. member will appreciate the fact that this opening was just a few days ago, and I believe he was there at the time.", "So the general agreement itself is very important to us on the basis that we have not been satisfied in Ontario with the amount of money that has been brought into Ontario by the federal government, nor have we been satisfied with the amount of money which was spent all over Canada to assist those areas of low economic status compared with other provinces. We feel the federal government has been remiss in not having more money appropriated for Ontario.", "They have given us the undertaking that in the future they will appropriate more funds for Ontario. I cannot say to the hon. members here today how much they’ll give us, but they have given us the undertaking we will get a fair share, and I believe this is a start in the right direction." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "The figure of $40 million for northwestern Ontario has been bandied about. Has the minister any information on that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine", "text": [ "This is my understanding, that this figure of $40 million has been mentioned. But what I would like to say to the members is that I don’t think any figure is firm until you get your subsidiary agreements signed. Then you know how much money is going to be spent in Ontario, as an overall amount for the province.", "We want to have the subsidiary agreements establishing a set of programmes which relate to the economic development in a specific region of the province. We want them to co-ordinate the existing federal and provincial programmes involving a particular development opportunity. We also want the agreements to provide specific support not available through other federal or provincial programmes. And we want their subsidiary agreements to establish continuing pro- grammes to fill gaps in the existing range of government-funded programmes. In a broad sense, that is what the development-agreement is all about.", "As far as the Cornwall agreement is concerned, and as far as the ancillary agreements which Cornwall will enter into after the passing of this bill are concerned, it will mean that of the funds that we are providing from the federal and provincial governments and from the city of Cornwall itself, the people will have the funds to establish and complete an industrial park. They will be able to establish a single-industry site which will provide, as I understand it, up to 1,200 jobs." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "What’s the industry?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine", "text": [ "What’s the industry? Combustion Engineering." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Right. What kind of plant?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine", "text": [ "It’s a boiler-making industry which is a male-employment industry. I think the member is well aware of the facts. It’s been in the press and I am sure the member reads the press as well as I do. It’s located in Quebec and I would hope that it doesn’t cancel its plan to come into Cornwall." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "When will construction begin and when will the plant enter production?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine", "text": [ "Well, it’ll begin, I suppose, as soon as we get this bill through. I would try to say to the member again, if the hon. member for Ottawa Centre would ever learn to make his point and get it over with, maybe this House could do its business in a more reasonable way. I am sick and tired of having the member for Ottawa Centre, all the time, time after time after time, say nothing for half an hour. If he could stand up and make his point and get it over with, we would have had this bill through by now. But he has been yakking up there for half an hour, saying nothing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)", "text": [ "That’s not so." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "-- this personal attack is not justified. The minister has had the bill sitting around for months --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order please. There is no point of order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "-- and for him to babyishly whine about the loss of half an hour of his precious time is ridiculous." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "There is no point of order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "The first intelligent exposition of the problems of that area for many years." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the other facilities that will be improved in Cornwall will include the dock facilities. They will include barge facilities; there’ll also be rail facilities provided at the western end of Cornwall. We’ll have a new tourism and recreation area adjacent to the industrial site. We’ll also have a complete civic centre, as I understand it, if the city of Cornwall wishes to proceed with it. We are also going to develop some of the canal lands which have been of little use to the city and to the people of that particular area.", "The federal government has agreed to provide a new training institute in Cornwall which will accommodate some 800 students. I think this is a very honest attempt by the federal government and the provincial government to provide job opportunities in Cornwall and the area. I was delighted to hear that the Liberal Party has agreed to this, too, and that certainly now we are co-operating, in a fashion which I hope we will carry on.", "We have had some discussions this morning about why we did not relocate Stelco from where it is proposing to locate in southern Ontario. I think it’s a matter of economics and the feasibility of what industries one can locate.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine", "text": [ "Does it make any sense to relocate a steel company when there is absolutely no way anyone can prove to me that it can be provided with its raw materials and that its transportation costs will be as equitable as they would be where the company is now; where it can get the labour and where it can get housing and all the other things that go along with it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "Why doesn’t the government do something about housing?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Why doesn’t the minister look into it? There is no housing in Haldimand." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine", "text": [ "We have discussed this feasibility with the company and with other companies." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Nonsense. The company made its announcement before even telling the government." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine", "text": [ "We are considering the feasibility of having industries locate in certain areas. If it’s feasible to do so, we will certainly assist them as far as the government is concerned.", "We are not going to say to industries, “Locate in an area so that, in five years’ time, you’re out of business.” That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Bunch of patsies." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine", "text": [ "I cannot agree with the socialist attitudes of the NDP, which say take over. There is no way. This government, as far as I am concerned, depends on private enterprise to make the economy of our province as good as it is." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "That would destroy the policy." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "That’s right." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine", "text": [ "Certainly we will carry on doing so, in the future.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine", "text": [ "What we have done as a government, through the Ontario Development Corp. and the Eastern Ontario Development Corp., has been to assist by way of loans --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "The government is giving welfare to corporations." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine", "text": [ "-- in providing job opportunities." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "Why does the government call them incentives when it gives them to corporations and welfare when it gives them to individuals?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine", "text": [ "Our socialist friends would like the government to take over everything.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine", "text": [ "I am glad they are on record. That’s just terrific." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "Corporate welfare bums." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine", "text": [ "It’s just terrific that they are on record as wanting to take over everything because there is absolutely no way the NDP is going to make any impression in eastern Ontario or in any other part of Ontario when its members talk such nonsense. No way whatsoever.", "I would think that serious consideration --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "That’s why this government has a minority of seats in the north." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine", "text": [ "-- should be given to the party philosophy before its members stand up any more.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please. We are dealing with the principle of the bill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "That’s why the anti-labour member for Timiskaming (Mr. Havrot) is going to lose his seat." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine", "text": [ "As far as we are concerned the government has assisted by way of grants, and will continue to do so, to locate industries in those areas which haven’t had the growth we have experienced in certain parts of Ontario.", "I want to say very briefly at this time that the member for Ottawa Centre has brought up the point of inadequate consultation with the people. How far does one go on the matter of consultation? This matter has been discussed at some length in the city of Cornwall. All the province is providing by way of this bill is allowing the municipality to enter into an agreement which will go beyond the term of the present council, in regard to a debenture debt. It does not change the fact that one must have an OMB hearing for any change of zoning and therefore I believe that it is not in the best interests of ill concerned to consider an amendment to this bill whatsoever, when the debt that is being incurred is certainly in the best interests of all the people at the local level and if there is a change in planning there will be a hearing.", "So, Mr. Speaker, I want to say again that we look forward in the next few weeks -- maybe the next few days -- to entering into specific agreements with the federal government and with areas in northern Ontario --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Which ones?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine", "text": [ "I am not at liberty to name the areas, but we look forward to doing that and will be doing that, I understand, very shortly, and I think at that time those areas that are affected will be as appreciative as the area of Cornwall. Thank you." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "Don’t count on it.", "Motion agreed to; second reading of the bill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Shall this bill be ordered for third reading?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Committee of the whole." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Is that agreeable to the minister?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine", "text": [ "Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "So directed." ] } ]