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[ { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the same minister another question related to a similar field. Does the minister feel that information in the following statement: “When increases occur, most customers want to know what the extra dollars are buying. The answer is unfortunately next to nothing,” is sufficient justification for increasing apartment rentals by 10 to 15 to 20 per cent right across Metro Toronto and in other metropolitan centres?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "What’s the question?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "I am asking the minister whether he feels that the following statement is sufficient justification for the recent increases in rental; I will read it to him again: “When increases occur, most customers want to know what the extra dollars are buying. The answer is unfortunately next to nothing.”", "That’s the justification being given for rent increases right across the province and I am asking the minister whether he feels that’s sufficient justification for the kinds of rent increases that we are seeing in the province." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am not aware who made that statement and I really have no comment to pass other than that it seems to be somewhat innocuous. I don’t even know who made the comment or under what circumstances." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Supplementary question, may I ask the question of the minister, then, in another way. Recognizing the rapidly increasing rental costs in the Province of Ontario, does the minister feel that it is now time to demand that those who are renting provided adequate justification for rental increases in order to ensure that there is not the kind of -- and I use the word again -- gouging that takes place as a result of a decrease in the numbers of rental units available?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, if you had rent control you could legislate for that very thing. We have no rent control in this province at this time and I couldn’t legislate and make it mandatory, with any sanctions applied if the person didn’t obey it, that every landlord is under an obligation in this province to give a breakdown on any cost increase. I don’t know under what legislation I could make that mandatory." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman (Windsor-Walkerville)", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: The hon. minister just replied that he has no plans for rent control at this time. Are plans being undertaken by the ministry for rent control at some future date?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "I have no such plans, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Ottawa Centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)", "text": [ "A supplementary: Is the minister familiar with the rent regulation legislation of the Province of Quebec, both the new legislation and that which has been in force for the last 20 years? What studies of that programme has the ministry got to see whether it would apply in Ontario?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Yes, I have heard of the rent programme in Quebec. I should point out to the House, Mr. Speaker, that the Landlord and Tenant Act is under the jurisdiction of the Attorney General. I really have more than a passing interest in it as a tenant, but other than that I have no legislative authority behind me relating to tenancies and the rentals of properties within this province." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Well, a final supplementary --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "There have been a reasonable number of supplementaries.", "The hon. member for Wentworth, a new question?" ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Education. Is the minister in a position to indicate whether the ministry intends at some point to proceed with the recommendations of the select committee investigating community use of schools, in order to allow the Hamilton board to make some reasonable and rational determination as to what schools might be closed, or what schools can be used? And can the minister say whether or not the ministry is prepared, at some point in the near future, to fund to any degree other than for direct educational use of school buildings?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. T. L. Wells (Minister of Education)", "text": [ "That is all under consideration, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Well, a supplementary question: Doesn’t the minister understand that the situation he is creating in Hamilton, both by demanding that there will be an integration of the separate and public schools, and secondly by insisting there be a closing down because of his financial arrangements, is going to put the board in a position of not having facilities for community use within the next two years, unless there is a clear indication from the government as to its intent?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells", "text": [ "My friend, Mr. Speaker, has got that all twisted around." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "No, I have not." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells", "text": [ "The minister isn’t forcing anybody into anything, but I will just tell him what’s happened. For two years this ministry has asked if the separate school board and the public school board in the Hamilton-Wentworth area can’t get together and share accommodation.", "I have sat patiently at many meetings and I have looked at what’s there. There are vacant classrooms in schools and there are other school boards who want classrooms. I think the two parties working together in co-operation should be able to solve their problems. They haven’t, unfortunately, to the discredit of both of them.", "Although I think both of them have tried very hard, they haven’t been able to come up with any solution. It is not because of fault on our part. All we have done is to say they should get together and try to work out their problem and share accommodation.", "I must tell the hon. member I met with the separate school board last night. They indicated to me their very real concern that they had to move ahead because in good faith they tried to make some accommodation with the public school board and to come to some conclusion. Everything that had been suggested has been turned down to date and hasn’t been accepted.", "Based on my meeting last night, as I said, I am looking at that. We are going to have to make some special determinations on what is going to be done in the Hamilton area in order to solve some of the problems of those boards. I am not sure that it relates at all to the report of the select committee on utilization of school facilities, because as I understand it that’s an interim report and that committee is going to bring in further reports which may modify some of the things that they have indicated in their earlier reports." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Has the minister been approached by anyone, from either a school board or from the community where the sharing of facilities has been undertaken, I believe in the Toronto area, complaining that where the public facilities have become redundant by population changes it is often the low quality facilities that are declared redundant, and that the separate school supporters feel that they are being put into, let’s say lower quality facilities because of the minister’s policy that does not permit them to build on their own? Has he heard that complaint?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells", "text": [ "I have heard that complaint, but I would just point out to the hon. member that there is no law that says they have to accept those facilities." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "The ministry won’t let them build their own." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells", "text": [ "All we have done is said to them to start taking a look at these facilities and see if they can be of any use to them. In places where they have taken them, they have done so on their own free volition." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please. I wonder if I might remind the hon. members that yesterday 35 minutes of the question period was taken by the two leaders of the opposition. Today two-thirds of the time has already passed. There has been no opportunity for the ministers to give replies to previous questions or for any of the backbenchers to ask questions. I think the hon. leaders should perhaps control the number of questions they ask. Now the hon. Leader of the Opposition with a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "They are suppressing their backbenchers." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Kennedy", "text": [ "Ours too." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "If the hon. Leader of the Opposition did have a supplementary, I am sorry I interrupted him." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Under the circumstances, Mr. Speaker, I will probably get the information privately from the minister." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Does the hon. member for Wentworth have further questions? If not, the hon. Minister of Energy has the response to a previous question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Oh, I am so glad he came this morning." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Sandwich-Riverside (Mr. Burr) has asked on two occasions whether we plan to send observers or participants to a conference on wind energy at Sherbrooke University, I think in May or June.", "Mr. Speaker, the answer is no. That decision has been made. Let me just say that we follow with interest the interest of a number of people in wind energy. We don’t think that its day has arrived; we think it is some distance in the future.", "I ran across this item this morning; actually it came from British Columbia. It gives us some idea, if I can put it this way, of how far out the situation is at this moment.", "In a 10 mile per hour wind, which is probably about average for most parts of the east coast of Vancouver Island, and I understand it is about the same here, an efficient 50-ft diameter windmill can generate about 12 kilowatts of electric power. To equal the power of a single 600 megawatt nuclear station -- and I should point out that for example the Clark Keith station in Windsor is about half that size -- would require about 50,000 very large windmills -- when the wind is blowing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "One might get rid of the whole province that way." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. J. Bounsall (Windsor West)", "text": [ "What’s stopping him?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)", "text": [ "I don’t know how the minister can provide statistics on wind if he can’t figure out the price of gas.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "To avoid interfering with each other’s wind, if I can put it that way, they would have to be spaced out at least 300 ft from each other and the installation would then cover 160 square miles of land with at least 2,800 miles of transmission cable.", "We will continue to follow closely developments in wind energy, but I think we would have to say at this moment it does not present a practical solution to the energy problems of Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Does the hon. member have a supplementary? The hon. member for Sandwich-Riverside." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. F. A. Burr (Sandwich-Riverside)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a supplementary: Has the minister, by any chance, read my speech from last week directed entirely to him?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Does little else." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "He read it last night." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "I have not seen a text of the member’s speech -- perhaps he would be good enough to send it to me and I would enjoy looking at it over the weekend -- but I have seen press reports of it, yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Burr", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a supplementary: If I may answer the minister, it appears in Hansard --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "This is a question period. There is no answer by the hon. member. This is a question period.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member may not --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Burr", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question: Would the minister be kind enough to consult Hansard of March 25 and March 28, in which this subject is dealt with at considerable length?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Good for you!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Burr", "text": [ "Another supplementary: Does the minister not realize that the statement he has made this morning shows how greatly in need he and his advisers are of going to the seminar and finding out what has been devised in the last couple of years?", "As another supplementary, does the minister not realize that the people who are going to be at the seminar have said they could devise a system in four years that would give the equivalent energy of the nuclear plant that he is going to take 11 years to build at Goderich?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I accept; and I will read the member’s speech of March 25 with a great deal of interest. I undertake to do that over the weekend. I frankly admit that I am not an expert on this subject. I have found out enough about the conference in May that I understand, by reputation, some of the world’s leading wind experts are to be there and --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Then the minister should be there." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "Why hasn’t he been invited?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "-- on that basis I assume that whether we send anybody from the ministry or not, there will be representation there from this House." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "There have been enough supplementaries. The hon. member had three supplementaries. The hon. Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations has the answer to a question asked previously." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Perth (Mr. Edighoffer) asked the following question some days ago:", "Does the Motor Vehicle Dealers Act allow the registrar to issue a directive prohibiting a dealer to place on his premises a vehicle on consignment?", "I’m advised that the registrar, under the Motor Vehicle Dealers Act, recently ordered a dealer to remove approximately 40 vehicles from his premises. These were the property of two other dealers who were also registered under the same Act. His authority for so doing is that under section 3, subsection 3 of the Act, it clearly states:", "A registered motor vehicle dealer shall not carry on business in a name other than the name in which he is registered or invite the public to deal at a place other than that authorized by the registration.", "Two-thirds of the vehicles on this lot were in the name of another dealer registration and therefore should not be offered for sale from a place other than the dealer’s premises.", "Further to this, Mr. Speaker, I would like to advise that the principle of dealers offering vehicles that they do not own to the public is very questionable where a previously undisclosed lien may arise and the purchaser may lose possession of a vehicle that he has, in fact, purchased in good faith." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Grey-Bruce." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Premier, since the Minister of Transportation and Communications is not here. In view of the fact that every trucking company in Ontario sets it own freight rates, how long do we have to wait for this government, and this new minister, to correct this scandalous situation? This is an important part of our economy and has much to do with the high cost of living in my part of the province and the rest of the province. Why can’t we have the Highway Transport Board get down to it and demand that these rates be reviewed on behalf of the people this year?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. G. A. Kerr (Solicitor General)", "text": [ "Doesn’t the member believe in competition?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. M. Deacon (York Centre)", "text": [ "There is no competition when you have restricted leases." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I will be delighted to discuss this matter with the Minister of Transportation and Communications." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "A supplementary: We’ve had this type of response from the former minister (Mr. Carton), and I’m fed up with you fellows saying you’re going to lock into it. A further supplementary --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Is that not so?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "That’s all right. The backbenchers are talking, Mr. Speaker, but I want to say that I’m fed up with --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Well where is the question? What is the supplementary?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "The question is, how long is the Premier going to allow former Minister of Highways Charlie MacNaughton, a director of Laidlaw’s, and John Robarts, to sit with their brief cases before the Highway Transport Board on behalf of trucking companies? Where are the ethics involved in this deal? Where are the ethics there?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I won’t get into a discussion of ethics here this morning, because the member and I might get into some discussion where perhaps he might assume that he should himself question his own." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Lakeshore." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Premier to say what he means by that.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "The buck doesn’t stop here; it stops in --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "And the Premier should know that himself.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Of all people, he tells me that!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "The Moog and Davis --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order please. The hon. member for Lakeshore." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. P. D. Lawlor (Lakeshore)", "text": [ "I want to ask something too!", "Interjections by hon. members." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "I have a question of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations.", "In light of the public revelations made last year on the Windsor race track and the race fixing done there, has the minister under consideration revising the investigative procedures utilized by that commission, which are highly questionable, and the basis upon which they penalize individuals?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "I wouldn’t want the hon. member to think I was speaking too loudly for him, so perhaps if he could read lips I could give him the answer.", "The investigative processes conducted by the Ontario Racing Commission are, I might suggest, being improved upon almost constantly. I am aware that some of the practices, because of the nature of the industry, might lead some as learned in the law as is the hon. member to question them as to their validity.", "I should point out that the Racing Commission has already conducted hearings in public, which is contrary to the policy that prevailed up to some short time ago --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "Which is a great improvement." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "-- and I think one of the advantages of having these matters dealt with in public is that people such as the hon. member and I can have an opportunity to look into these investigations and know what is going on in the hearings, and in that way the general improvement will be beneficial to all.", "I’m very much in favour of such matters, except under certain circumstances, being dealt with in public so there can be the public scrutiny I think is in the best interests of justice, and I hope to see constant improvement in that particular area." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Since they have their own investigative staff, as the minister knows, and they don’t use the regular police apparatus, doesn’t the minister, as a lawyer, find somewhat questionable the laying of some nebulous concept called “specifications”, which are in effect really criminal charges, and the way in which they are bandied by the commission?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "I should point out to the House, Mr. Speaker, that while they do use their own investigative resources, they do under certain circumstances work very closely with police forces both within and without of this province. As the hon. member knows, a number of participants of the racing industry who are racing in this province are in fact moving back and forth across the international border. I am advised that they utilize these resources that are available in the United States in certain instances, as well as resources here in the form of other police forces, particularly the Ontario Provincial Police in certain circumstances." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "What about investigation?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for York Forest-Hill." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. P. G. Givens (York-Forest Hill)", "text": [ "I would like to ask the Treasurer what his position is with respect to the impending federal legislation to amend the Bank Act, which will enable provinces to buy into new and existing banks, and which may enable new banks to be established by letters patent? I consider this very far-reaching legislation. Does the Treasurer intend to encourage its passage or to discourage its" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "Well, sir, some parts of Canada think they have not been as well served by the chartered banks as their economic needs warrant. What the facts of the matter are I am not entirely sure, because the banks in their turn provide statistical evidence to indicate that they are lending more money into those parts or the country than moneys placed on deposit from there. They conclude that they are providing extra special stimulus to those parts of the country where economic development has been somewhat slower than here in Ontario.", "At any rate, at the urging of those parts of Canada and particularly western Canada, the federal government has decided to enable provinces to own up to 25 per cent of a chartered bank. I have no particular objection to that, but I think we in Ontario will not have to utilize that federal legislation because I do believe we are well served by the large banks which have, I think, about 4,000 branches across this province.", "We received requests from the Ontario Federation of Agriculture to do what we could to increase the supply and lower the cost of farm credit. The Minister of Agriculture and Food and I have been meeting with the chartered banking association and we have had a very sympathetic response from them. It seems to me that, in preference to our starting our own bank or purchasing part of an existing bank, our cause is best served by going to the chartered banks, when we have requests of this kind, and eliciting their special co-operation in these extraordinary needs of one kind or another. That is our position at the present time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Givens", "text": [ "A supplementary: Well, is the Treasurer --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The time for oral questions has expired; we have exceeded the time actually." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "But, sir, on a point of privilege. I rose earlier today on a question of the privileges of the backbench members to participate in this debate. I asked for response from the minister responsible; he said ask it in the question period. But because the backbench members have so few chances to ask questions in this House, I didn’t get a chance to ask him.", "Now surely it is a privilege of the members of this House to participate in the debates, and surely the government should answer?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "The member made the rules." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Oh yes, I made the rules!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I would point out to the hon. member that --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "They agree with me." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "-- the question period has developed that we rely upon the leaders of the two opposition parties to regulate their number of questions. I try to limit the number of supplementary questions without being too restrictive.", "As I did announce today, the time taken yesterday by the leaders of the two parties was quite excessive; it left practically no time. I brought it to the attention --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "No difference today. It’s no different any day." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Oh yes, it’s quite different some days. I brought it to the attention of the House today and both members did co-operate. Now I regret that the hon. member for High Park did not have an opportunity, but I assure him that it was not his turn. I recognize the hon. members in turn. Perhaps he might direct that question in the next question period." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "His are better questions, too, that is the pity." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Before proceeding I should announce to the hon. members that His Honour the Lieutenant Governor will be in the chamber just before adjournment time at 1 o’clock to give royal assent to certain bills. I have also been asked to inform the hon. members that His Honour extends a cordial invitation to all members to visit with him in his chambers at the adjournment hour of this House.", "Petitions.", "Presenting reports.", "Motions.", "Introduction of bills." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Orders of the day." ] }, { "speaker": "Clerk of the House", "text": [ "The first order, resuming the adjourned debate on the amendment to the amendment to the motion for an address in reply to the speech of the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor at the opening of the session." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough Centre:" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. F. Drea (Scarborough Centre)", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In the time that has elapsed since I adjourned this debate we have entered into a very historic day in this Legislature, for today marks the final official visit of a man who has accomplished something that very few in their lifetime can. That is, by his own personal magnitude, his own dedication to office and his constant example of standing for the very things which are the finest in this province; he has surpassed the institution.", "Sir, it was a couple of weeks ago when this Legislature tendered a dinner to His Honour. On that occasion, a journalist questioned me particularly along the lines of “do we need that kind of symbol any more in Canadian society?” Of course, I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that had he known a little more about the parliamentary system he would have realized we do need that office if our system is to continue.", "Beyond that, it seems to me that His Honour over the years has not only brought great dignity to his office, he has been an example to the people of this province. Mr. Speaker, I don’t think any member of this assembly, present at his dinner, was not touched by his final remarks. His Honour talked about the great love he has for this province and how he had travelled this province. I would like to point out that His Honour, in the finest sense of the word, is this province because to me he symbolizes all of the things that are great and all of the opportunities that are available to people in Ontario.", "Sir, this is indeed an historic day and I don’t think it should be marked with sadness. I think the last thing His Honour would like is for people to feel at all sad that he has completed his assignment for he has completed it so marvellously and, indeed, he has been a great inspiration not only to the senior portion of our population because he has not allowed the infirmities which come with advancing years to interfere with his duties, he has also been a great source of inspiration to young people in this province.", "Mr. Speaker, I have deviated a bit from the normal speech in the Throne Speech debate because, with the way the schedule reads, I will be the last speaker representing the government party on this day of His Honour’s last official visit to the chamber.", "Now, Mr. Speaker, I would like to raise with you a matter of privilege and I would hope, when I am done with the matter of privilege, we shall have another historic day in this chamber.", "The matter of privilege that I wish to raise with you concerns the denial to me by an arbitrary ruling upon your part, with great respect, which denies me my full privilege as a member to communicate with my constituents. The nature of your ruling, sir, also denies me the basic privilege of immunity from lawsuit --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. Is the hon. member for Scarborough Centre challenging the ruling of the Chair? Is this a device by which he is going to challenge the ruling of the Chair? If so, I ask you to rule if the hon. member is in order or out of order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the privilege has to be considered --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "No. Order, please. I have no idea whatsoever what the hon. member is going to refer to. Certainly it is highly unusual, to say the very least, to raise what is termed a matter of privilege during the Throne debate. It is quite correct that any hon. member may speak about any matter he wishes to speak about during his Throne debate as long as he stays within the confines of parliamentary procedure. Now, it seems to me that to raise a point of privilege in this manner -- as the hon. member knows the Speaker has no opportunity to respond -- as part of the Throne debate, I would think is out of order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I don’t want to challenge you, sir, but I would like to give an explanation. The matter of privilege which I wish to raise concerns the Throne debate and that is why I bring it up when it is my turn to speak in the Throne debate. It is my only opportunity to raise the matter of privilege concerning the Speech from the Throne." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "No it isn’t. No it isn’t." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Privilege, as referred to in connection with what the hon. member is saying, refers to parliamentary privilege conferred upon members of Parliament. Now the privileges referred to consist of certain rights conferred upon members of Legislatures and of the House of Commons or any parliament, which are not conferred upon any member of the public. Anything that falls within the ambit of that description is a point of privilege.", "There have been many, many hon. members over the past years who have attempted to rise on a point of privilege when, in fact, it was not a point of privilege at all. It might have been properly construed as a point of order.", "It occurred to me that there were certain matters that perhaps could be raised and should be raised and I therefore did make a ruling at one time, not too long ago, that where an hon. member does have something to bring up in the chamber, by way of explanation or further indication to clarify certain matters, if he consulted with the Speaker’s office this would be permitted. But certainly during the Throne debate it is improper to raise a point of privilege." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "Then with great respect, sir, may I ask the question of when I would be allowed to raise a question of privilege regarding the Throne Speech?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Not at this particular time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. P. D. Lawlor (Lakeshore)", "text": [ "The member knows the rules." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Shulman (High Park)", "text": [ "Before the orders of the day." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "The member for High Park has great luck with that.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Don’t use the word privilege." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "I am getting some advice, Mr. Speaker, but I don’t want to try to circumvent your ruling. I am not that type of person. I will bring it up at the proper time. I am not not going to play games. I respect your ruling. I don’t agree with it, but I am not going to play games and try to circumvent it by dropping the word or the expression privilege." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Very good." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "But perhaps, sir, I might have the opportunity to consult with the Clerk and get an idea of when one can raise the question of privilege concerning one’s participation in the Throne Speech debate, if indeed it can’t be raised at that time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Is the member going to consult him now?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "I must say to my friend from High Park, we haven’t done very well. That’s three strikes today, two on him and one on me. Mr. Speaker, to return to the matter of the Throne Speech --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)", "text": [ "Why don’t the two of them start a football league?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "Well he has the money and I suppose I have the mouth. We might do very well." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman (Windsor-Walkerville)", "text": [ "Well, the member was honest there." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "If he had as much luck in speculating with football talent as he does with commodities, why we might get to be a rather famous duo." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Famous passing team." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that the public reaction to the Throne Speech has been that it is rather a marking time event; that it is a kind of a pause before a rather significant Speech from the Throne to be delivered next year, because it will form the basis of an election platform for this party.", "I would sincerely wish, Mr. Speaker, that the editorialists who pontificate this view would read the Throne Speech in its entirety and that they would go back into the history of this government. This government did not commence in the spring of 1971 after the leadership convention when the member for Peel North (Mr. Davis) became Premier of this province. Where this government has its origins is when George Drew took power in this province in the 1940s.", "Mr. Speaker, if you look at Throne Speech after Throne Speech you will see that this party and this government has constantly been building.", "In the time of George Drew we were overseeing the transformation of a society from an all-out war effort and a recovery from a depression into the beginnings of modern urban and industrial Ontario. And the Throne Speeches and the action of that government reflected that overview; and that policy was carried on as well by Mr. Kennedy during his brief tenure.", "In Mr. Frost’s time, it was the supervision of the overseeing of the transformation of Ontario from a largely rural to a largely urban society. In Mr. Robarts’ time, it was overseeing the change from an occupationally-oriented society into a very technologically-oriented society. We could see that in the development of the universities, of the vocational high schools and the community colleges and in the great emphasis upon the need for education in our society.", "Again, when we come to the present Premier we see the overseeing of the transformation of a burgeoning, pioneering, expanding society into one that is going to be aware of the limited amount of resources, of the problems of population movements and mobility, of the particular problems of the elderly in our society, of the particular problems of younger people having to face a society that literally changes every two or three years instead of after a couple of generations.", "I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that the Throne Speech of 1974 is not one that is marking time. Rather, sir, it is a new plateau, for it boldly states the pledge of this government that we are not only prepared to meet the challenges of urban Ontario, substantial as they may be, but that we are going to roll back the last undeveloped frontier of this province, the north.", "I suggest to you, sir, there has been no more ambitious programme announced by any government in this country than those programmes announced in the Throne Speech of this year, for we are taking dead aim on the housing issue. Despite the fact that the federal government has bungled housing for more than two decades through the inability of the Central Mortgage and Housing Corp. and its ancillaries to come to grips with the basic nature of the economic problem, we are saying in effect, “Forget about that, we are going to assume responsibility for preserving the Canadian dream.” This is the right of young men and women, of middle-aged men and women and of older men and women, to save their money and to buy a home and to have it as their own.", "I suggest to you, sir, that the day that people in this province cannot buy a home, then our society is in rather deep and rather permanent trouble, and the buck has stopped --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. Haggerty (Welland South)", "text": [ "Tell it to the Minister of Housing (Mr. Handleman) don’t tell us." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "-- in this Throne Speech; the buck has stopped. The Minister of Housing has stated it on at least a half a dozen occasions since then -- and the member’s only problem is he can’t come to grips with the fact the minister is speaking with a great amount of realism. And I am glad --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "We have heard that now for 15 years from the member’s side of the House." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "-- that the Housing Minister in his action programme has said the government of Ontario isn’t going to build all of the houses, that there is a responsibility for private industry in this field. I think it would be a disaster if we were to take over all housing in this province. We don’t want a communalized society; we don’t want your house to be determined by a faceless person Mr. Speaker. We want to let you have the opportunity to buy the kind of a home you like and the kind of a home you can afford and to bee able to seek alternatives, if you don’t like the particular model that’s there." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "The member is not answering the problem." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "It would be very easy for the government to take over the whole housing industry. Heaven help us if it did! People would be living in tents within two years." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "They are going to be in any event." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would like also to say that although it is not a radical programme, we have come to grips with the last major health cost item for the senior citizens of this province, and that is the announcement that we are going into the provision of prescription drugs for senior citizens under the normal health insurance programmes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "So much for housing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, we will become the first jurisdiction to do this on this continent. I think that is a remarkable achievement of a government in a society that supposedly is oriented toward the young, the efficient and the successful." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "It is 30 years too late." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "Thirty years too late? Thirty years ago when this party took power in this province there was a lackadaisical, do-nothing, stumblebum government." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)", "text": [ "It has not improved since." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "It took us a long time even to correct the nonsense that had gone on. I suggest to the members that we have brought in drug care for senior citizens. Members opposite have had a party in Ottawa that has dominated the Ottawa scene over those 30 years and I have yet to see it do one single thing in the way of drugs for senior citizens. So don’t point the finger at us." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "Tell us about it. Where does this government get the money from? The federal government." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. L. M. Reilly (Eglinton)", "text": [ "Where does the federal government get the money from? From Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "That is a government that can give $80 million for LIP and other screwball projects. Then members opposite ask us where do we get the money from. The money that they put in Ottawa into weirdo stuff could provide prescription drugs for every senior citizen in Canada in every province as a matter of right, and don’t forget it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Tell that to the immigrant groups and Injured Workmen’s Consultants." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "Tell them.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please. The member for Scarborough Centre has the floor." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "I will be perfectly glad to tell anybody. I will also tell them about the amount of money that went into the Church of Satan. That has to be a remarkable achievement by any government.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "If there is that little control over a programme of that magnitude, then, sir, I don’t really think that I want to have any part of it, and I think that as a responsible legislator I have every right to criticize it.", "Mr. Speaker, we have come to grips with the housing problem. We are not going to solve it overnight: we would be less than truthful if we said we were. But we have embarked on the long crusade to meet the challenge of the rather expensive dwellings in the urban areas. Now for years there has been a suggestion that we regulate the movement of people so that they would not all come to Toronto or the suburbs, or so that they would not all go to Kitchener-Waterloo or to Hamilton, but they would go some place where there is supposedly a scarcity of population.", "Mr. Speaker, that is a most impractical programme. I do not wish to be associated with any type of programme that tells a person where he must live. If we are going to have a society in Canada and in Ontario that we can be proud of, we have to meet the challenge rather than impose restrictions and hope that we can avoid the challenge. That is precisely what our new housing action programme is going to do." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "What about the --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "Again in the field of aging, Mr. Speaker, we do not treat the health cost programmes for the senior citizens as a matter of charity. I am very proud of the Davis government because we have stopped punishing thrift. If you had saved for your old age or if you have a pension above and beyond the guaranteed annual supplement, we don’t suggest to you that you are different from any other senior citizen and make you pay your premiums. We provide premium-free assistance to everyone over 65, because it isn’t charity. It is a dividend to those people in appreciation of the contribution they have made to the establishment, the development, prosperity and the opportunities that this province enjoys. We have now brought about the final health care programme which will remove the economic sting from the health problems which do occur more regularly with the senior members of our society.", "When I was first elected to this chamber people suggested I was a great advocate of consumerism. When I told them what this government intended to do in the field of consumerism, people tended to believe that it was such an imposing programme it would have to be introduced over a decade.", "In this Throne Speech, there is the unmistakable hand of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations (Mr. Clement)." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Where?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "We are not only going to deal with the very difficult problem of a Business Practices Act which will drive the crooks, the shysters and the fly-by-nights out of business, we are also going to deal with the very difficult problem of warranties and guarantees. It’s difficult because of the split jurisdiction and the international trade ramifications of our province." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "That has nothing to do with split jurisdiction. It’s whether or not this government is prepared to protect the consumers in the Province of Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "This government protects consumers better than any other province does." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "We are sick and tired of the split jurisdiction." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "The member himself has said it on innumerable occasions that we have left it too long." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "We have heard him describe the problems and say that the consumer ministry --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "This is getting into a debate." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "I have never said those words.", "What I have said -- and the member was there, if he was paying attention at that early hour of the morning -- was that for practical purposes -- it was said some time ago -- there was no real meaningful consumer protection in Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "How can he say that’s pretty good?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "That’s what we said." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "That is not what they said. They said I accused the minister of having a ministry which was in a shambles. If they’re going to quote me, let them please quote me correctly." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "As one goes through his statement it’s the same thing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "That is not --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. Root (Wellington-Dufferin)", "text": [ "They’re hard of hearing over there. They can’t hear what the member says." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "There’s a wide difference and I would suggest the member has won many a law case on such a wide difference as that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "No meaningful consideration." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Let’s not quibble. Let’s get to the specifics." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "However, Mr. Speaker, I am very proud of the Ministry of Consumer and Commercial Relations in this province --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. Sargent (Grey-Bruce)", "text": [ "Another tacky job." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "-- for accepting a criticism like mine and not going off and sulking about it but going out and doing something about it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "There is no jurisdictional problem." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "There is a jurisdictional problem in this province dealing with warranties and guarantees. Any practising solicitor, surely, should recognize that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "There is no problem dealing with warranties and guarantees as part of the contracts-" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please. The member is out of order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "May I suggest he talk to some of his federal colleagues because they keep bringing it up?", "Mr. Speaker, to come back to the practical realities of the proposed new legislation on warranties and guarantees, I think it is a mark of this government and of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations that we are going to return honesty to the marketplace in an extremely meaningful way." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "That’s in the green paper." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "We are going to balance the scales. We are going to make sure that the consumer --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Meaningful dishonesty." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "-- is protected against the sophistication and complexities of the TV promoter; against the complexities of modem advertising; and against the complexities of a nation which is so dependent upon international consumer trade that we have, for years, been willing to accept the American style of guarantee or the American style of warranty. I suggest that the amount of attention paid by our Ministry of Consumer and Commercial Relations to this problem in its green paper is indicative of the fact that it means business and we are now in a position where this legislation will be coming in in this session.", "In the field of transportation, not only in southern Ontario but in northern Ontario, this government is determined to open up this province so its residents may enjoy, to the maximum, the full opportunities for economic and social development.", "I suggest to you, sir, the road building programme in the north, the feasibility study for the road to Moosonee, the new extension of the Ontario Northland Railway which will be built from Moosonee to deep water --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "How was that tendered?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reilly", "text": [ "We have a great government." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "I’m glad the member mentioned that without tender. Could I suggest he read the Globe and Mail this morning? It holds the tendering practices of our Ministry of Transportation and Communications out as a model to any government operation anywhere on the continent. The member for Grey-Bruce’s problem is that he only reads what he wants to read. In fact, I wonder if he can read at all." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "The government has one thing that works. There is only one thing and that’s why he is talking about it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "I wasn’t talking about it. I accept that as normal. The member is the one who raised it. If he is going to read a newspaper, he had better read all nine columns of it. He gets into an awful lot of trouble sticking with the two columns on the left." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "The member was through two hours ago. Why didn’t he stop?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "I have always taken the position that if I can bring out the beast in the member for Grey-Bruce for public display, it is worth the effort." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Anybody over there can do that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "Well, anyone may be able to do it. I realize that, but somehow I do with a bit more clarity and acerbity than the norm.", "Mr. Speaker, the transportation programmes of this province are indeed indicative of this new plateau, for we do intend to roll back the artificial frontier that has been the far north of northern Ontario, the area beyond Cochrane, the area beyond the northernmost of the east-west railroads, the northernmost of the Trans-Canada Highway routes. There is an abundance of resources in those areas." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Does the member know that one trucker has all the rights up there? He has complete rights to the north country." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "One trucker?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "One trucker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "He must be a good one." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Yes, he has got an in for him." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "No tendering." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "Would that trucking company be Star Transfer?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Which one?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "Star Transfer." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "No." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "In the north we happen to own a truck line which is a subsidiary of the Ontario Northland, but I would hardly expect the member to know that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Root", "text": [ "I don’t think he knows what trucks there are on the highway up there?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "What’s that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order. The member for Scarborough Centre is the only one with the floor." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "It is all right, Mr. Speaker. I’m enjoying it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "That’s free enterprise!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "On behalf of my colleague over there, I’m trying to give him an hour and the member is ruthlessly interrupting me. I don’t want to get into a conflict of interest between these two fellows, because that’s something else. But if he would allow me to finish, the member for Downsview will be next. Thanks." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Thank you, I am in no rush. Let the member take as much time as he wants." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "Okay." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "And then he will hear some sense." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, again and hopefully for the final time, to return to the transportation programmes of this government. Transportation and the opening of new routes in the north, albeit that they are the more conventional type of transportation, either rail or road, are just as significant to the development of the economic and social goals of this province as is our concern with rapid transit lines in the urban areas.", "Mr. Speaker, I suggest to you that the decision to go north, both in terms of road from Cochrane and in terms of rail from Moosonee, will be regarded in the future years as as much a landmark as that of the Premier of this province some two years ago in cancelling the Spadina Expressway and in introducing the era of rapid transit in this province. That is already considered a hallmark in the social development in this province." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Hallmark in backward steps." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that the contents of this Throne Speech with regard to transportation, particularly those of the north, will be as much a hallmark in years to come." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Is the member going to reopen Spadina?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "Am I going to reopen Spadina? I have no use for the Spadina Expressway and neither does any thinking person. With gasoline going to 75 and 80 cents a gallon, thanks to that magnificent federal Liberal planning, I don’t think any thinking person is concerned about the Spadina Expressway these days. As a matter of fact, I presume they are kind of grateful to us for saving them from about a $250 million blunder." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "Is the member going to have his government review the fuel taxes on bus systems --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "-- to enable municipal bus systems to operate a little more efficiently?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order please, will the member for Scarborough Centre please continue his address." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "I am dutifully trying. Would the member write? I didn’t get it. I want to finish. Would he write it, then I’d be very glad to take it up with the minister." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "I would prefer the member to answer concerning --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "Well, if the member would -- you know, the members all sit over there and snicker, and now they want me to answer questions in my speech. If they want me to answer questions, I would humbly suggest to them that they send me a note. I would be very glad to reply." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Do it in question period. Okay?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "Okay, I’ll send him a note." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. P. Spence (Kent)", "text": [ "The place is getting so bad, he could wait forever." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. P. MacBeth (York West)", "text": [ "Put in a good word for the minister." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on a final note, I would like to discuss some remarks that were made in this House yesterday. I was in the unfortunate position of sitting in the chair as your replacement, Mr. Speaker, so I could not interject or correct the records at that particular time, so I am going to bring it up today.", "Mr., Speaker, yesterday the allegation was made that a minister of the Crown reflected the professional do-gooder attitude of people who apparently go out and knock on a few doors and collect a couple of dollars, or many dollars, on behalf of various charitable causes -- I think that the one which was particularly mentioned yesterday was that of the cancer campaign -- and that somehow, by doing that, that allowed people like the particular minister of the Crown who was mentioned to abrogate their other responsibilities in society.", "Mr. Speaker, I think that this is a dreadful canard. I would like to suggest to you that there are many tens of thousands of women and men in this province who go out and solicit funds on behalf of their churches, on behalf of the Salvation Army, on behalf of the cancer fund, on behalf of the heart fund, on behalf of a great many things. Rather than being professional do-gooders, Mr. Speaker, those men and women are the people who are the finest and the best in their communities and they represent everything that the people of Ontario stand for. And I say that to you with deep respect, sir.", "I want to dissociate myself from the type of thinking that tries to project the view that the women who are standing out in downtown Toronto and other centres today -- with the temperature just above freeing -- selling daffodils on behalf of cancer research, are some kind of professional do-gooders. I want to dissociate myself from that, sir. I want to say to you, Mr. Speaker, that those women are the finest in this province and rather than being the object of snide remarks with a nasal twang, they should get the very enthusiastic desk thumping of the members of this chamber.", "I am fed up to death with the idea that unless you believe in some kind of a massive, collective, expensive and very often wasteful and bureaucratic solution to individual problems, then you are somewhat less than a thinking person. And, Mr. Speaker, just to ensure that those people who do go out and do that kind of work -- and it is difficult -- just to ensure that they know where they stand with the responsible members of this Legislature, I am very glad that the desk thumping came from both sides of the House when I made those remarks.", "I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that there are a great many members of this House who have knocked on doors and solicited funds for research, or for churches, or for school projects, or for a great number of other things. Quite frankly, Mr. Speaker, I was rather amazed yesterday that those remarks were accepted as ordinary statements of fact. Because certainly to me they strike at the very fibre of our society, and to let them go on unchallenged would be a disservice to very many thousands of extremely fine people.", "Thank you, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Downsview." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, as I’ve listened to portions of this debate I’ve been very interested to hear the remarks of various members and particularly the compliments that they have addressed to new cabinet appointees. One notorious omission, I thought, was any reference to five hon. members who have recently left the ministry." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "We have mixed feelings on some of them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "I thought, Mr. Speaker, that someone at least should have a word or two to say about the hon. member for Bellwoods (Mr. Yaremko), the hon. member for Armourdale (Mr. Carton), the hon. member for York Mills (Mr. Bales), and the hon. member for Kingston and the Islands (Mr. Apps). I think I left one out -- the hon. member for Carleton East (Mr. Lawrence).", "Perhaps these words coming from me are not inappropriate because I’ve sat in this House since 1959, a longer period than all of those five members except the member for Bellwoods who came in, if my memory serves me correctly, in 1951.", "In my opinion, Mr. Speaker, and without dealing with each one of these hon. gentlemen individually, they have served their community and this province in an outstanding manner. I felt very badly, personally, that after the many years of service each one of them has given, their departure from the ministry was done in such a cold, abrupt and apparently unfeeling way.", "If there is anyone who should know about politics and the feelings of politicians, it’s the people who serve from time to time in this Legislature. While I was in frequent disagreement with these gentlemen from time to time on points of policy I have no hesitation whatsoever in saying here in the Legislature, where it should have been said by someone else, that the Province of Ontario owes a great debt to the unselfish service that each one of these five gentlemen has given.", "I feel very badly that, when the time came and the decision was made by the Premier, the press release given out couldn’t have been expanded by a few pages at least and a paragraph or a sentence or two devoted to the past service of each one of these gentlemen.", "I think it’s inappropriate. I think it’s unfeeling but perhaps it is a measure of this government and its new approach." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Of course it is. It is the night of the long knives." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, there is more significance in the departure of these particular gentlemen and the future of COGP. We all know about COGP. It was hailed as the new businesslike approach to running government. Where did the advice come from? It came from the leaders of the business world, the heads of big and successful companies, who sat down and said “We are going to tell you how to run the government as a business.”", "They really felt the politicians were useless appendages. I can recall one evening in the members lounge downstairs, talking to one of these fellows who didn’t quite agree with some of the views we were putting forward. Finally an argument developed and he went storming out the door and snarled over his shoulder, “You political yahoos who waste your time getting elected when we are the people who know how to run the business of the province.” That I think, Mr. Speaker, unfortunately was the attitude that permeated the recommendations of COGP -- the elected people really are dumb. We are the political yahoos who waste our time coming here and the intelligent people, the successful businessmen, should be running the Province of Ontario.", "One of the great ideas they came forward with was the establishment of policy secretariats. And with great flag-waving and drum-thumping we had a group of ministers, some called them superministers, who were provincial policy secretaries. There was one who looked after justice; there was one who looked after social services; there was one who looked after treasury and intergovernmental affairs; and there was a fourth one who looked after natural resources. These people were going to sit and think. They were going to come out with ideas and they had a variety of ministries to whom these ideas should be fed.", "One secretary had eight portfolios to which he was to give ideas. Another one had six; another one five; I have forgotten the exact breakdown. Well, it was fascinating. It was fascinating to watch how it worked in TEIGA when the present Minister of Energy (Mr. McKeough) was the provincial Treasurer and grabbed unto himself the Ministry of Municipal Affairs. He seemed to be roaming the field and he was dictating policy to himself and to the government and to the people of the Province of Ontario and, I suppose, advising other ministries and thinking and so on.", "It became very difficult in the justice field particularly, and Mr. Lawrence, the one-time member for the riding of St. George, couldn’t stand it any more and took himself from here and went to another place. I don’t really blame him because he was caught in a useless job. He was given no responsibility, really. He had no decisions to make. He had very little to say.", "The hon. member for Carleton East tried very hard to make his job work but it just didn’t seem to fit together and he has now departed. So the story goes throughout all these secretariats. With the departure of these five ministers it was interesting to see what happened to the secretariats.", "In Justice I guess someone has now decided that the Attorney General (Mr. Welch) can think as well as do, so he is the Provincial Secretary for Justice as well as being the Attorney General. It is fascinating to look at the estimates that were tabled; the Provincial Secretary for Justice is asking for some $400,000 this year and in addition the Attorney General’s estimates are asking for a very substantial sum of money. I wonder why? I wonder why the Attorney General wants that money or why he wanted the $350,000 he was voted last year because there is only one minister, not two any more.", "There used to be a deputy minister. That was another of the tragedies. Randall Dick who, to my mind at least, was one of the most able civil servants we have around Queen’s Park was also hived off in a corner for two or three years doing nothing. The government has shown a little intelligence at least in now giving him responsibility as a deputy minister in an operating department and I think that is all to the good. But there is no deputy minister in the secretariat for Justice. We haven’t got a minister and we haven’t got a deputy minister and what the $400,000 is for, Mr. Speaker, escapes me completely.", "Why is it not time now for the government to admit that this major COGP recommendation has been an abysmal failure? That the secretariats have gone the way of the foredrawn buggy and that we take out even the small amounts asked for in the estimates and let’s get down to business.", "What other secretariats appear to have been continued? I am not quite sure whether the Treasurer of Ontario (Mr. White) is a secretary or just the minister in TEIGA. If he is a secretary some of his thinking doesn’t seem to project very well for the benefit of the people of Ontario but surely he has a full plate looking after the responsibilities assigned to him. There’s Justice and there’s the TEIGA.", "Then it’s fascinating to note that the hon. member for St. Andrew-St. Patrick (Mr. Grossman) is now a provincial secretary. I watched his first performance as secretary the day he made that interesting statement about where the pipeline was going to go. It was as though suddenly the hon. member for St. Andrew-St. Patrick had done little else but worry about locations of pipelines. Some of us know him reasonably well, and when he wants to make a speech about something he knows something about, he doesn’t stumble through four or five pages of written text, and he did stumble. Then when the questions came, he couldn’t answer them and he had to point to the member for Chatham-Kent (Mr. McKeough). The member for Chatham-Kent, who obviously was the author of that great piece of policy, had to come in and take up the breach.", "Well, what’s happened to the member for St. Andrew-St. Patrick? I suppose it was a nice way of easing him out of the picture, giving him a title and preserving a ministerial salary. What he has to do escapes the notice of anyone who sits in this Legislature at all. It’s rather a pity, because he has certain talents that the government has used in the past. It’s a pity to see him hived off.", "Now I come to the hon. member for Scarborough East (Mrs. Birch), and I think she’s a fine lady. I think her presence in this House adds a great deal to our proceedings. But I think again, if the idea of COGP was meaningful at all, the appointment of people as secretaries involved the selection amongst the Tory members of people who had had substantial and varied experience in senior positions in government.", "In saying what I am saying, I am not being critical of the hon. member. I just wonder about the basis on which her appointment was made when her experience in this House certainly has been very limited and her apparent knowledge of the various departments which have come under this secretariat is again very very limited. I think she has a very important role to play in the affairs of this Legislature and in the affairs of the Conservative Party, but I wonder again if this is not just another passing off. I would predict that the hon. member has a very bright future in politics, but if she is going to be put in the secretariat and really have no responsibility, then what is the use? In effect, Mr. Speaker, what I am saying is the system of secretariats has been abandoned, and I think it’s time that the Premier gave it an honest burial.", "Let me turn to my next point. I want to talk about Ontario housing at some length." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "If it’s of any solace to the member for Downsview, I am inclined to agree with him." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Thank you, sir. I am making progress. The hon. member for Riverdale and I are in agreement. I want to talk about Ontario housing. I had hoped that I could have attacked the minister. He isn’t here, so we are going to have to expect maybe that he will read this in Hansard or someone in his department might want to tell him about some of my remarks.", "The affairs of housing, notwithstanding the remarks of the last speaker, in the history of this province have been very, very sad. They have been very very badly handled. The government in the time I have been here has run through some five ministers, Macaulay, Randall, the present Provincial Secretary for Resources Development (Mr. Grossman), the now Attorney General and now the new member who is the Minister for Housing (Mr. Handleman). That portfolio seemed to attract to it people who would be able to produce on the eve of an election elaborate plans for new building, which usually got substantial newspaper coverage -- full pages. I can remember Macaulay building all sorts of high-rise buildings down on the lakefront in the east end of Toronto. He only built them in the newspapers, but it sounded good at election-time. And, of course, we had Stan Randall." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Harbour City." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Stan was a great fellow, yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "And Malvern." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Malvern -- oh, I am going to say a word or two. Stan was a great fellow. He was used to selling refrigerators to Eskimos and he thought that was the way you could build houses. It really didn’t matter whether you built houses as long as you made a speech about building houses.", "And then we had the hon. member for St. Andrew-St. Patrick whose standard approach was to dare anybody to criticize him and he would snarl back and that was that end of the housing.", "Well, the Attorney General, when he was Minister of Housing, really didn’t have sufficient length of time to have a go at it, so he didn’t do very much. And now we have the new minister and the new minister is great at making speeches. In one of the Toronto newspapers today there is a story on page 2 that is headed: “ALL TALK AND NO ACTION FROM HANDLEMAN.” I think that is appropriate.", "In another Toronto newspaper there was an editorial headed: “HOW TO SAY BOO TO A SPECULATOR.” There were comments on the remarks of the hon. minister, saying it is all very fine to make speeches. The last two paragraphs read like this -- referring to the minister’s comments in relation to speculation in land:", "Speculation in land or anything else, come to that, is perfectly legal. Is the minister warning that what is legal may not be moral and that new regulations are going to be brought down to give effect to that view? If not, surely he should desist.", "Surely we are past the point where a species of ritual, Calvinist imprecation does any good. What is needed from the Housing Minister is not a verbal flailing in the temple but a cogently designed series of measures to take the profit out of speculation. If that is what he believes is necessary he -- and it might be added, Welch, Davis and all ...", "And I say well said to the editorial writer, because it is long, long past that we are going to build houses by the magnificent speeches of the Macaulays, the Randalls, the Grossmans, the Welches, or the newest incumbent in that office.", "The housing situation in the Province of Ontario is a disgrace. It is absolutely beyond understanding as to why most of the wage earners in this province are unable to buy a house. There have been all sorts of suggested solutions. My leader, when he first entered this debate, devoted a considerable section of his speech to methods that might be used. Many of my colleagues have spoken frequently time after time here and outside and been reported amply in the press about the problems of housing.", "I remember, Mr. Speaker, in the byelection in St. George I was at a meeting held in an apartment house to meet the now member for St. George (Mrs. Campbell). Circulars had been distributed through the apartment house and it was anticipated that maybe 15 or 20 people would show up. Instead, 100 people came; they wanted to hear what she had to say -- and the topic of the evening was housing.", "I remember particularly one gentleman who lived in that apartment building, a nice apartment building in downtown Toronto. He was a young man, good looking, well spoken. He said: “I have a good job; I earn $15,000 a year. I like my bosses and they like me; I expect I am going to stay with them for my working life. But I am married and I don’t want to live in an apartment for the rest of my life. What are you politicians going to do to help me.”", "That, Mr. Speaker, is the tragedy that exists in our housing situation in this province today.", "There was a report that came across my desk from A. E. LePage yesterday, and they do a pretty good statistical analysis. What was the average sale price of houses in Metropolitan Toronto in the year 1973? I think $44,000 was the average selling price of a house.", "Now, Mr. Speaker, you know and I know that someone earning $10,000, $12,000, $15,000, $18,000, $20,000, $25,000 a year, just can’t afford to go and buy a house at $44,000. Where are the people of Ontario going to live and how are they going to be able to afford it? And what are we going to get from the government, other than the speeches of the Macaulays and the Randalls and the Grossmans and the Handlemans? You don’t build houses with speeches, Mr. Speaker, and that’s all we’re getting.", "Mr. Speaker, one of the things that bothers me is that with this great selection of gentlemen who have been given the responsibility for housing -- with Ontario Housing Corp. and now with the Ministry of Housing -- there is something radically, radically wrong with the way Ontario Housing Corp. has been run in the past and the way in which the ministry is being run now.", "Mr. Speaker, you may recall that when the hon. member for St. Andrew-St. Patrick was the minister, I mentioned in this House that certain information had come to my attention which indicated that perhaps there was something unusual and suspicious and possibly very, very wrong about methods that had been used for purchasing land. Because I didn’t want to make any accusations addressed against any particular person until I had evidence -- and I won’t make an accusation until I do have evidence -- I asked for an opportunity to look at the minutes of the Ontario Housing Corp. dealing with land purchases over a fixed period. I asked over the telephone and was refused by the general manager of Ontario Housing Corp.", "I wrote to the minister and the minister said: “No, those are private records. You can’t see them.” Mind you, Mr. Speaker, this is public business. We are spending a lot of public money and one would think than an elected representative of the public should be entitled to examine the records of public business. But the correspondence is here, and I can read it in length if it interests anybody today.", "The minister said: “No, I’m not going to let you look at the minutes of Ontario Housing Corp. I’m not going to let you try to determine whether or not the information that you have received is correct and the suggestions of bad practice are correct. If you think you have some information about a particular individual, tell me and I’ll look it up and I’ll tell you if you’re right.”", "Well, I had run into a brick wall, Mr. Speaker, so I gave up on that one, but I never really forgot about it. It passed off, and we noticed no particular change either in land purchase arrangements or methods, and we noticed no particular apology from the ministry. No new systems were announced and they carried on as they wanted to. That was one incident. There have been a series of other incidents.", "I had some of our staff look at the number of times that my colleagues and I had been at Ontario Housing Corp. about a variety of matters. There was the improper disposal of OHC building materials. You may remember that one, Mr. Speaker. We asked about it and we got fobbed off with a nothing answer. Nothing really was ever done about it. There was the question of gifts, and I’m going to deal a little longer with gifts.", "Mr. Speaker, here are photostats of the many, many times in the last three or four years that we have been trying to bring some public light to the affairs of what goes on in Ontario Housing. We’ve had no answers from any of the ministers. All we have are the Macaulays, and the Randalls and the whole series of them getting up and building houses in newspapers, but as for the actual building of houses on land, there is none of that.", "Mr. Speaker, there is another very disturbing incident that happened quite recently. It turned up sort of as a side effect of the inquiry conducted by His Honour Judge Waisberg in the royal commission on certain sectors of the building industry. His terms of reference were quite specific, that he should inquire into questions of violence, possible corruption, and so forth in the building industry.", "During the course of that inquiry, Mr. A. E. Shepherd, QC, who is well known to many members of this House, who was counsel to the commission, appeared before His Honour Judge Waisberg on Dec. 20, 1973, and delivered a very fascinating statement.", "The statement is here and I have it from the original transcript. I’m not going to read it in detail but it is here and if anybody wants to see it I have it. It said in effect that there were gifts, substantial gifts, in dollars and other favours given by certain unnamed persons to senior officials of the Ontario Housing Corp. and it appeared that those senior officials were in a position to make decisions about which pieces of land Ontario Housing Corp. purchased.", "Obviously what Mr. Shepherd was getting at was that it was about time a careful look was taken at this to see whether or not the giving of these gifts did, in fact, wrongly direct the efforts of Ontario Housing in purchasing certain lands. Were certain people given favours? Were they given larger prices than they might have been entitled to and so on?", "One of the things Mr. Shepherd said was, to give an example:", "We found evidence of a gift of $2,000 in a gift certificate made at one time by one who is a principal in a company dealing with OHC to one of the employees of that corporation, whose duties required him to share in the process of decision-making affecting the fate of the application by the developers, including a company with which the donor is associated.", "One would have thought that this would be a matter of great concern to the government. Mr. Shepherd and His Honour discussed this at some length and Mr. Shepherd suggested that the police be called in and the police were called in. Mr. Shepherd, I understand, made available to the police the information which the commission’s investigators had turned up.", "The House was still in session I think, wasn’t it, on Dec. 20? Did we go on after Dec. 20 or did we stop? I tried then and I tried in the House when it came back early in March to elicit information from the Attorney General as to what was happening. The only reply I’ve been able to get up to this moment, Mr. Speaker, is that the matter is under investigation.", "I don’t know how long it takes to investigate this kind of charge -- it is not one of suggestion -- because one must presume that Mr. Shepherd, who is a very competent lawyer, would not likely go before a judge, who is conducting a royal commission on instructions from the government of Ontario, and make these charges unless he was pretty sure of the evidence he had available to him.", "That was on Dec. 20 and this is April 5. How long, Mr. Speaker, does this kind of investigation go on? There were questions raised both by the judge and Mr. Shepherd as to what should be done and the matter was left that the police investigations would go on. The commissioner is quoted as saying:", "The police investigations, I should say, should continue without being impeded in any way by our own investigations.", "Mr. Sheperd: That is correct.", "And what is your suggestion and recommendation? [that’s the commissioner].", "Mr. Shepherd: I think the proper course, Mr. Commissioner, at this point in time is to allow the police to deal promptly and vigorously with the matter which is, of course, very much within their field and then, in light of the result of police investigation, for you, sir, to reassess the position which would be appropriate to adopt.", "Mr. Speaker, what has happened is the police investigations, insofar as I’ve been able to ascertain, have not led to the laying of any charges as yet. You know, sir, that it is an offence for a civil servant to receive gifts and it is written in our statutes. There have been no charges as yet laid.", "It seems, if I read the papers correctly, that this royal commission has about concluded its public hearings, and that the commissioner, on the advice of Mr. Shepherd and Mr. MacRae, who was with Mr. Shepherd, is preparing his report -- I am guessing about that; I don’t know. But the whole incident to which Mr. Shepherd devoted 15 or 18 pages of transcript on the morning of Dec. 20 seems to have faded into the woodwork.", "Mr. Speaker, there is something wrong in Ontario Housing. I know it and many members of this House know it. And Mr. Shepherd certainly spoke about it in a clear and unmistakable way before a judge of the county court of the Province of Ontario. What is happening? Not a thing -- that’s what is happening. And we are back again to the problem of how we can build houses. Well, we are not building houses because we haven’t even got a department that seems to be operating on an even keel. We haven’t got a department that is prepared to let members of the Legislature or members of the public know what’s going on. And I, for one, frankly am getting sick and tired of listening to the speeches of Macaulay, Randall, Grossman, Welch and Handleman that don’t produce any houses." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "Housing by headlines." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "In 1954, the Malvern land assembly was done; that is 20 years ago, Mr. Speaker. For 20 years that land -- some 1,700 acres -- has been in public ownership, and there are a handful of houses on it today. What are we getting? We are getting speeches about how it’s a bad thing to speculate, but we are not getting any laws. We are getting speeches about how we need serviced land, and if I heard somebody correctly this morning, perhaps there should be more services, but surely it’s the responsibility of the municipality.", "We are getting new statutes such as the parkway green belt statute, which draws an artificial line around the periphery of Metropolitan Toronto, stops services from going across it and stops development. We are getting freezes imposed arbitrarily, months ago; and metes and bounds descriptions are not available, so people don’t even know where the limits are.", "We are getting speeches about how we are going to speed up the process. Now, Mr. Speaker, you sat on a municipal council; you know a little bit about the process. I wonder if the present Minister of Housing or the present Treasurer or any one of them knows anything about how the process works at all?", "And what is the speeding-up going to mean? I am familiar with one application that I think was commenced in May, 1973. The application was in one of the boroughs here in Metropolitan Toronto. It involves a request by the owner to turn the land, which had a specific use, into a use for row houses. It was no great problem, because a battle had been hotly fought by the ratepayers about the land immediately abutting it. The Municipal Board had a lengthy hearing and said of the land immediately next door: “Yes, that land can be used for such-and-such a purpose and the density is so-and-so.”", "On this other piece of property, right next door to it, where they wanted an exactly similar use, the process has taken already the better part of a year. There hasn’t been one single objection by any ratepayer, by any member of any planning staff, by any member of any council. It is just the paperwork.", "On this piece of land, when it is rezoned, there will be some 69 housing units. But the paperwork that is supposedly going to be speeded up by the ministry, has taken over a year already -- and there have been no objections.", "Mr. Speaker, surely it’s about time that someone who begins to talk about speeding up the process began to, from a position of some knowledge. Maybe the person who is going to do that should understand what goes on in municipal councils and municipal planning boards. The bigger these municipalities get the more steps seem to be invented for review and review and review and review and review. If the government really believes that there is a way of speeding up the process, for goodness sake, come in here and tell us. Come in here and give us some directions. Come in here and give us some statutes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "We will. We will." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "We have a new minister over there. Things will change immediately. That’s the way you are going to build houses, Mr. Speaker, not with the speeches of the Macaulays, the Randalls, the Grossmans, the Welchs and the Handlemans." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "And the Robarts." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Yes, the Premiers have gotten into it. The Davises and the Robarts and the Leslie Frosts didn’t build houses either, and their spokesmen certainly weren’t able to build houses.", "Finally, Mr. Speaker, this has been said so many times it probably isn’t worthy of repetition, but it has been said so many times, Mr. Speaker, that perhaps we’ll try it just once more. The reason that housing costs are escalating is because there is a shortage of serviced lots. And the reason there is a shortage of serviced lots is because of the various statutes, the various government procedures and the lack of sureness and the lack of money.", "The hon. member for York Centre (Mr. Deacon) has said, and so many of us have said so many times, put in the services. Let the government of Ontario put in the services. You are not going to have houses unless you have water, Mr. Speaker. You are not going to have houses unless you have sewers. You are not going to have houses unless you have roads. And if the installation of those services is going to be made dependent upon the actions of the developers and the hindrances and the hurdles put in front of development by government, then the process has to grind to a halt, as it is now doing.", "Surely, Mr. Speaker, there must be some way within the fertile imaginations of all the people who occupy the treasury benches that they could devise a system whereby the government is going to be able to finance the installation of services. Once we have serviced land available then we can put houses on it. Then the plea of the gentleman I talked about a little earlier -- the gentleman who was earning $15,000 and was happy with his job and was happy with his employers and was happy with his future except that he couldn’t buy a house -- will be answered, and then maybe we can get to the point where we are going to be able to do something about providing housing for the people, who are entitled to live in houses.", "And then, Mr. Speaker, I think the time has come to have a very serious look about the say-noers, not the do-gooders, but the people who say no to anything that is new.", "Somebody suggested yesterday that the projections of zero vacancies in apartments was perhaps self-serving and was being instigated by those who presently own apartments so that they can raise rents. One of my colleagues suggested that in his riding there were lots of apartments going up, but what is in fact happening, Mr. Speaker, certainly in this metropolitan area, is that the ability to deal with a piece of land and erect on it buildings for multiple use has almost ceased. But there are more people who want to have apartments, there are more people who want to have houses, and really the lid is on. So it’s not unnatural and it’s not self-seeking to suggest that we are heading very quickly to a zero vacancy rate, that we are heading for a dramatic increase in rents.", "With all of the other factors that are affecting the cost of living, we are not in the glorious never-never land that the member for Scarborough Centre was talking about, but we are in a time of great difficulty in this province and our people just aren’t able to afford any longer the cost of food and the cost of housing and the cost of many other things.", "And what are we getting, Mr. Speaker, from the government? We get more Handleman speeches. I don’t particularly fault the new Minister of Housing. He is a new boy and he has what is probably one of the toughest portfolios in government, but he is in character with what has happened before. He is completely in character with Macaulay, Randall, Grossman and Welch. Surely, Mr. Speaker, the time has come to stop saying “in the fullness of time.” They used the phrase yesterday, “in the aggregate we will build some houses.” I don’t know what year “aggregate” is, but he was going to build some “in the aggregate.” “Wait until my legislation comes in,” he says. That is no help to anybody who finds himself in this very difficult position.", "Mr. Speaker, to sum up very briefly on the housing thing, we have no policy. We have no minister who knows how to go about establishing a policy. We have the history of Ontario Housing functioning itself which, to say the least, is not a good history. We have the remarks of Mr. Shepherd made before the royal commission. They don’t seem to be clearing up the department and they certainly aren’t building houses. The time has come to do something about this and that time is right now.", "The next thing, Mr. Speaker, that I want to make a few remarks about is the question of no-fault insurance. This matter has had a great deal of publicity in recent months. In fact, I suppose, publicity began to attach to this problem when the Premier on Thursday, Nov. 1, 1973, spoke at the Insurance Institute of Ontario awards dinner. I have a text of his press release. On page 7 he said this:", "I think it is plain from my remarks that some form of so-called no-fault automobile insurance is coming to Ontario, and it is our hope that it will be run by private enterprise.", "Fascinatingly, the Premier wasn’t too sure at all what he had said, but that is an exact quote from his remarks.", "In the House on March 7, I asked him this question:", "Mr. Singer: I have a question of the Premier. In view of the Premier’s statement not too long ago that we could expect new no-fault automobile insurance laws in Ontario, and in view of the recent publicity given to a proposal along these lines by the insurance industry, is that the kind of new law that the Premier had in mind?", "And my question goes on. The Premier’s reply was:", "Hon. Mr. Davis: Mr. Speaker, I don’t intend ... [I had asked for a select committee, which I am going to suggest again today.] ... I don’t really recall saying that we are going to have a new no-fault insurance programme. I do recall speaking to a group of insurance people.", "I don’t know which Premier you believe, Mr. Speaker. Is it the one who said on Nov. 1, “I think it is plain that some form of so-called no-fault insurance is coming to Ontario,” or the Premier who spoke here on March 7 and who said, “I don’t really recall saying we are going to have a new no-fault insurance programme”?", "I don’t know that this is of great moment, but I would think that the Premier, of all people, should be able to remember what he said and should at least be consistent. When he has made that kind of positive statement which attracted a great deal of media attention, he should remember what he had in mind. I have been trying to elicit since that time, Mr. Speaker --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)", "text": [ "No-fault if necessary, but not necessarily no-fault." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Well, I guess that what it means -- maybe yesterday, yes, and tomorrow, no. But what it does mean I don’t know. I have been trying to elicit information from the Premier and the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations. The history of this whole thing has a fascinating ring. There is a group called the IBC, the Insurance Bureau of Canada. They are the successors to what used to be called the All-Canada Insurance Associates. They are an association of insurers. It became apparent that the Premier’s remarks on Nov. 1 were a setup for the introduction or the announcement of a plan put forward by IBC. What puzzles me throughout this whole story is the way in which the Premier was either using this or was being used, and how the details took so long to unfold.", "In any event Mr. Speaker, a plan was put forward by the IBC, a form of no-fault, which seemed to be just great, depending on who you listened to. Certainly its advocates touted it. Certainly people from several insurance companies thought it was a wonderful idea.", "Then one day, Mr. Speaker, there was a meeting of a group of lawyers, the Advocates’ Society, when they discussed the IBC plan, at great length and bitterly, and then some of the glow came off the great announcement. The IBC plan suggested that there would be a quicker loss settlement; that there would be reasonable settlement to those who were at fault; that there would be more dollars back in claims because of a reduction in investigative and court costs because there would be fewer fraudulent and inflated claims; and that public uncertainty would be removed and they would know exactly what they would be getting. Those were some of the strong points in the IBC programme.", "The criticisms ran along these lines: The IBC programme removed compensation for non-economic loss, and non-economic joss is damage for pain and suffering, damage for loss of life and a couple of other points. It is dealt with in more detail in the report of the Law Reform Commission that we saw for the first time yesterday. The questions that were raised, particularly by members of the legal profession, were that the public was not really prepared, in their opinion, to accept the taking away of items of damage, compensable items such as pain and suffering, loss of life expectancy and that sort of thing. The criticisms, as I say, were lengthy and quite bitter and the discussions again went forward.", "Then, Mr. Speaker, while this presentation was being made -- and this is why I wonder very seriously about who initiated it, what kind of power and influence existed to brine it forward as far as it came -- there came into my possession something that’s called a model bill, which was going to set up this scheme, the IBC scheme. And while I have no real knowledge as to who drafted it, I have seen enough bills in my term of service in this Legislature to say that the bill was drafted by someone who knew his way about drafting -- and drafting is a very fine art -- and who knew it sufficiently well to set up the bill in a form that we often see as ministers introduce bills into this House. I have no way of knowing who the draftsman was, but the job of draftsmanship is of such expertise that I wonder if it didn’t come from one of the government offices.", "What I am trying to figure out, Mr. Speaker, is where and why the IBC plan got such great impetus. Well, after the meeting -- and the IBC plan too was hopefully going to come into being on Jan. 1 1975; they even had a time schedule -- they ran into the criticisms of the lawyers, of the insurance agents, of the brokers, of many, many members of the public and that cooled off.", "Then, fascinatingly, Allstate, who had been a part of the IBC setup originally, withdrew from IBC because of this particular proposal and gave publicity to their specific objections to the IBC plan.", "There are many, many things wrong, Mr. Speaker, with our present system of insurance. Some members of this House will recall -- the hon. member for Haldimand-Norfolk (Mr. Allan), who was here a little earlier, will certainly recall because he chaired it -- that one of the best select committees we have ever had, in my opinion, in this House was the committee to deal with automobile insurance which sat in 1961, 1962 and 1963. That committee brought forward a series of recommendations to which the committee was able to agree unanimously, which was supported by the All Canada insurance group, which was supported by the lawyers, which was supported by everyone who came in contact with it except one gentleman, Irwin Haskett, who happened at that time to be the Minister of Highways or the Minister of Transport. Somehow it became his responsibility as to whether or not we were going to have the system of fault that the committee recommended along with a great number of other recommendations.", "It took about seven years, and really the departure of Mr. Haskett from this Legislature, for the recommendations of the committee to be implemented in full and they brought about a very considerably improved system of automobile insurance. I said the recommendations were implemented in full; they weren’t implemented in full but the substantial majority of them were.", "The time obviously has come, because of all of this talk about insurance, to have another look at it. Mr. Speaker, the government or the then minister commissioned a group, David McWilliams and Thomas Bell -- were there only two? I thought there was a group -- to study insurance claims and it was called the minister’s committee on insurance claims.", "They brought forward a report which they dated August 25, 1972, and they made it available to the present Chairman of the Management Board of Cabinet (Mr. Winkler) who was then the Minister of Financial and Commercial Affairs. By the time it came forward I think the present minister had the responsibility, and rather than make this report available to us, the members of the Legislature -- and I think it is a good report -- we were told about its recommendations.", "Mr. McWilliams is a very capable man and he pulled no punches at all when he wrote about this report. Thomas A. Bell, who is well known again to many members of this Legislature, joined in the report. We saw the recommendations and it took three months -- more, about six months -- of battling in the House to be able to get hold of the report; and there it is. There are 300-odd pages in this report dealing with recommendations made by McWilliams and Bell about how the system of automobile insurance can be improved. Nothing has been done, Mr. Speaker. Not a thing has been done to implement any of these recommendations at all." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "They didn’t even tighten up on the adjusters." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Not a thing. Well, that’s one report. There is a stack of documents, Mr. Speaker -- it runs now about 2 ft high -- about what might or might not be done. That’s the second one.", "There is available, and it has been put in the hands of the minister, the transcript of the hearings of the Advocates’ Society to which I referred earlier, which took place on Friday, Feb. 8. The minister has a copy of that volume and it is available for reading.", "Then, Mr. Speaker, we have the latest document which was tabled in this House yesterday. That is the report of the Ontario Law Reform Commission on motor vehicle accident compensation. It is a radical report; it is a very different report. The report admits that the system the Law Reform Commission is putting forward does not exist in any common law jurisdiction. They are a very efficient group and their research was done well; they talk about New Zealand law, and law in the other provinces of Canada, and English law, and law in various jurisdictions in the United States.", "What, in essence, they are now recommending is that the whole system of motor vehicle accident compensation be taken out of the courts completely. That there be no right to go to court if you’re injured in an automobile accident, but that if you are injured you will be given payments in accordance with a fixed scale. That there will no longer be damages for pain and suffering. That there will no longer be questions of who was at fault. That everyone who was injured should be compensated and they should be compensated for their financial loss and their financial loss only.", "The report makes very, very interesting reading. I think the time has come now to have a discussion in this Legislature, or by a committee of this Legislature, along with members of the public, to see which way we are going to go in this. Whether or not the Ontario Law Reform Commission idea that we deal with motor vehicle accident compensation in the same method that we deal with workmen’s compensation is a good idea or not, certainly remains to be seen. I have very substantial reservations about a number of the recommendations in the report.", "The Ontario Law Reform Commission hedges on whether or not its new plan, if it comes into being, should be done by a public body -- by the government -- or be done by a private body -- the insurance companies. 1 think that kind of thing deserves a very thorough examination and some kind of a decision from the government of the people of Ontario.", "What is obvious immediately, Mr. Speaker, is that all of the things that have been discussed in the present concern about automobile insurance, certainly has to indicate to any alert person that there is something wrong with the system of insurance. Why does the Law Reform Commission write a volume like that and make these suggestions if it hasn’t concluded there’s something wrong? And the Advocates Society and the minister’s committee on insurance claims and many other people. Well, there are things wrong, Mr. Speaker; there’s no question in the world there are many, many things wrong.", "The concept of gross negligence goes back into the dark ages. If a gratuitous passenger is injured in an automobile, to get at his own driver -- and it’s really not his own driver, it’s his own driver’s insurer -- he has to be able to establish his own driver was not ordinarily negligent but was grossly negligent. Why we continue to have that concept in the Province of Ontario nobody has been able to explain.", "The president of the Treasury Board said two years ago when he had the responsibility: “We’ll take it out.” Well, it’s still there. The select committee that I talked about in 1961, 1962, 1963, said: “Take it out.” But it’s still there. It’s unfair. It’s unreasonable. It’s illogical. But the concept of gross negligence still remains as a part of Ontario law.", "Liability periods. I don’t know why the lawyers are so happy to see, or somebody keeps being so happy to see limitation periods put into statutes. Limitation periods can often work very, very serious hardships. Let me tell you about a case that I’m involved in as a solicitor.", "I’m acting for a passenger, a gratuitous passenger, who was very seriously injured in an automobile accident. He initiated proceedings within the one-year period. Out of that one accident, seven lawsuits have grown up; they’re about to be tried fairly soon. The argument is going to revolve around gross negligence, ordinary negligence and that sort of thing.", "There were three people in the front seat of the car, the driver and two passengers. The two passengers were very, very seriously injured; the second passenger didn’t realize that he was stuck within the limitation period and he didn’t seek legal advice until one week after the limitation period had expired. He was told, as he had to be told, that he was out of luck. If he had a valid claim he no longer was in a position to assert it.", "Mind you, Mr. Speaker, that accident had given rise to five different lawsuits. The courts are about to determine who was at fault and how much is going to be paid and to whom. One gentleman who was involved in the accident, who was seriously injured and who wasn’t aware of the limitation period, is just cut right out of the picture completely.", "Does that make any sense? It doesn’t to me. Surely the time has come to do something about the limitation period.", "These suggestions I’m making now are things that can be done immediately, but there is a long-term view and a long-term approach to what we should do about automobile insurance.", "The question of insurance company subrogation in property claims is a technical thing; but it is a nuisance, it is ridiculous and I think it should be eliminated.", "On the question of rate control, Mr. Speaker, you are probably aware that section 367 of the Insurance Act, which has been on the statute books for over 30 years and gives power to the government of Ontario to control insurance rates, remains still unproclaimed today. You may be aware as well that committees of this Legislature, including the select committee I’ve talked about, strongly recommended that it be proclaimed.", "You may be aware, sir, that many members in this House have indicated from time to time that the government surely has some responsibility to look into, to inquire about and to have something to do with and about insurance rates and the various inequities that they produce.", "There is no point in giving a long list of these inequities at the moment. The fact is that we have an unproclaimed section of the Insurance Act, section 367, which is still unproclaimed after 30 years on our statute books, and we don’t have an adequate staff in the department of insurance that can intelligently examine and comment upon insurance rates.", "In this time of rapidly increasing costs and runaway inflation, Mr. Speaker, surely the government should be turning its attention to things which it can control. Surely we are entitled to hear the opinions of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations (Mr. Clement) and of his officials, based on adequate research, and the opinions of actuaries and so on as to whether or not the insurance rates that people in Ontario pay are reasonable and fair, or whether or not they add substantially to insurance company profits.", "When we get the old saw that the underwriting costs balance off the premium profits, when we get no explanation as to why these people stay in business if they are losing money every year, when we get no explanation as to why the companies don’t add in their investment income as part of their overall financial position and why they don’t add in interest on prepaid premiums, the time has come that the government of Ontario should begin to have an authoritative opinion and exercise some control over insurance rates in this province.", "On the question of who is responsible for the mechanical condition of the vehicle, I think there should be a simple statutory provision to make the owner responsible.", "The question of compulsory insurance is a small thing in view of the percentage of people in Ontario who remain uninsured, but there are still about 70,000 people in Ontario who we allow to drive on the roads uninsured. Why should anybody be allowed to drive on the roads and not be insured? Why shouldn’t automobile insurance be compulsory? Why can’t we do some of those things right now?", "Then there’s the whole question of dealing with claims: Speed, cost, delay, harassment, adjusters, repair services -- all of these things have got to come under government review and government control. Why can’t we do it now? Why can’t we establish all-industry drive-in claim centres similar to those in government-run insurance provinces so that vehicle damage can be quickly appraised and settled? What would be hard about that?", "Well, those are a few suggestions about what might be done immediately, Mr. Speaker. This is a problem that is going to be ever with us, and if the government continues to just get reports and to turn its back on suggestions, well it’s just causing more grief and more difficulty for the people of Ontario. There is a strong segment of the population of Ontario which believes that the government should run all the automobile insurance. The industry is finally beginning to flex its muscles. There are legal critics, like James Chalmers McRuer, former Chief Justice of the High Court, who say: “Take all automobile litigation out of the courts.” There’s an argument against that.", "Mr. Speaker, the message I am trying to get through to government is this, let us in this session of this Legislature have some of the changes that are obvious, some of the changes that McWilliams put forward, some of the suggestions that I made today. That can be done within the present knowledge of the government. It can be done and no one is going to object to it. But then, Mr. Speaker, the time has come to really get to grips with this situation.", "If we can establish select committees on drainage and on snowmobiles and on the use of schools, surely we could establish a select committee on automobile insurance? Surely then we could begin to get some feeling from all sorts of people -- the public, insurance people, the bosses who run and own the companies, the adjusters, the agents, and then there is the Legislature -- about which direction we might move in.", "Those people are available to us. McWilliams is available to us and the Law Reform Commission is available to us and the lawyers certainly are not going to be backward about coming forward in this. There is a suggestion that the lawyers have a vested interest in the continuing of negligence actions before the courts -- and perhaps there is some validity in that suggestion -- and that the lawyers are going to fight very hard to prevent the recommendations of the Law Reform Commission being carried out in their entirety.", "But the lawyers really aren’t the only test in this. What I am urging the government to do is, now that we have more reports than we know what to do with, we start a meaningful public inquiry that hopefully is going to chart our course for the next six or eight or 10 or a dozen years in the future.", "That’s all I wanted to say about automobile insurance." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "That was very good." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Pardon?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "That was very good." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Thank you.", "Mr. Speaker, do I understand His Honour is coming in?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "What time? Do you want me to move the adjournment of the debate now? I have another topic." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Not quite yet." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "All right. Mr. Speaker, I want to talk for a while about inflation. I suppose I have become more and more incensed about what is happening in this province as I sit and listen to the fatuous statements that come from the treasury benches, particularly the ones dealing with gasoline, fuel oil increases and so on." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Name them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "I couldn’t help but think, Mr. Speaker, when I saw the Prime Minister of Canada and the 10 other smiling gnomes emerge from the conference room in Ottawa saying: “Look what good little boys we are. We are only going to raise your gas prices 10 cents a gallon. Aren’t you lucky? It might have been 20”; that somewhere along the line we have all gone crazy.", "We get the Premier, Mr. Speaker, and we get the hon. Minister of Energy standing up and saying, “Hurray, hurray, hurray, we are wonderful.” And the Premier, in one moment of great magnanimity said: “Even Pierre Trudeau wasn’t bad that day.” And I thought, what else did we need in Canada and in Ontario to make it a great place to live other than Davis saying that Trudeau wasn’t bad that day.", "But what happened to the people by reason of these decisions? Fuel oil has gone up 10 cents -- well, we are not quite sure. The member for Chatham-Kent (Mr. McKeough) wasn’t really able to give us any figures. He was great on windmills this morning, but pretty bad on gasoline prices. Gasoline prices affect a few more people than the windmills that he was talking about, and yet we got very little information.", "There was an incident here in the House the other evening, Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for Scarborough East -- Scarborough West?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Scarborough West (Mr. Lewis) -- had addressed a question at question period to the Premier. The member was dissatisfied with the Premier’s answer and resorted to the procedure available under the rules to arrange a debate on Tuesday evening at the hour of 10:30. The Premier wasn’t able to come back and join in that debate, and apparently somebody suggested or directed that the member for Chatham-Kent come here.", "I thought the member for Scarborough West made a very reasonable, logical and intelligent presentation at the hour of 10:30 on that point. What shocked me, Mr. Speaker, was the reply from the member for Chatham-Kent. First of all, he complained about having to come from the theatre to this place to indulge in the debate. I thought it was just too bad that his valuable theatre time should be taken up to participate in the affairs of the Legislature of the Province of Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Well, they are somewhat superfluous," ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "He got caught up with a little heckling as a result of that intelligent opening remark. The barracking got fairly heavy and he quit in midstream. Well, it’s obvious that he had no answer.", "But surely, Mr. Speaker, we can begin to hear somewhere and from somebody what kind of effect these agreements and plans and raises and prices are going to have on the people of Ontario.", "It isn’t enough to hear speeches like those we’ve heard -- the one that preceded mine this morning: “Ontario is great and if only those guys in Ottawa would do something the world would be fine.” Or the Premier throwing his hands up the other day and saying: “Inflation is world-wide. If that isn’t good enough for you, it’s all Ottawa’s fault. If you are talking about price and wage controls, I don’t believe in it. If you are going to see what we are going to do, wait -- you will see it in the budget.”", "Well, we’ve seen many budgets, and the last one sticks in my mind. The Treasurer told us to put on our sweaters and to turn down the thermostats and the world would be fine. That didn’t help very many people." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Just the beginning of it," ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "I talked about housing prices earlier this morning. Rent is going up. Fuel oil is going up. Everything is going up. I’ve got some figures here. The latest figures from Statistics Canada show in one year, from February, 1973, to February, 1974, dairy products have increased by seven per cent; these aren’t just the other day’s headlines, either. Butter went up six cents a pound just the other day.", "Ice cream, skim milk, cereal and bakery products have increased 20.5 per cent; beef, 25.2 per cent; pork, 13.1 per cent; miscellaneous meats, 23.7 per cent; poultry, 34.5 per cent; fish, 33.7 per cent; eggs, 26.2 per cent; fresh fruit, 26.9 per cent; canned fruit, 15.8 per cent; fresh vegetables, 7.4 per cent; canned vegetables, 13.7 per cent; frozen food, 10.1 per cent; miscellaneous groceries, 8.2 per cent; sugar, 71.6 per cent; honey, 47.4 per cent; peanut butter, 29 per cent; food away from home, restaurant meals and so on, 17.2 per cent.", "Wiatt a terrible, terrible tale, Mr. Speaker. What are we getting? We are getting the Minister of Energy smiling all his way out of the theatre and grumbling up here. We are getting the Premier saying “it’s intentional,” or “those guys in Ottawa are picking on us.” He says: “Wait for the budget. There will be good news in the budget.” I don’t believe it. I don’t believe it.", "I don’t know, Mr. Speaker, if you have wandered through a supermarket in recent weeks -- but do it. Do it perhaps over this weekend. No? Well, look at the faces of the women who have gone to do their week’s shopping -- good, ordinary Ontario residents who have gone to the store to do their shopping, and notice the look of horror on their faces as they go from bin to bin and look at the newest price tags. They know how much money they have in their pocket and they are wondering, “How am I ever going to be able to buy food to feed my husband and my children next week?”", "What are we getting? We are getting the smiling gnomes emerging from Ottawa. And I don’t apologize for or excuse the federal people any more than I apologize for or excuse the provincial people, because Ottawa is not doing anything to control inflation -- nor is Queen’s Park. But I am sent here by my voters to talk at Queen’s Park and I think that there are things that can be done here within the Province of Ontario that are going to begin to control this and give some of the people of Ontario some kind of a break.", "Let’s look at the kind of profits that are originating in corporations who seem to be able to sell food products, oil products, furniture products, department store products -- whatever it is, corporate profits go up and up and up.", "There doesn’t seem to me to be any valid reason why we can’t look most seriously at the usefulness of writeoffs, the usefulness of depletion reserves, the usefulness of the corporate tax arm that we have, and no longer be frightened about the kind of threats that are being hurled at us.", "It isn’t enough for a Minister of Housing to say, “Maybe it is not nice for people to make lots of money on land, and if you don’t stop we might do something about it.” Why don’t we do something about profits on land?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. M. Campbell (St. George)", "text": [ "They’re the biggest profiteers." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Why don’t we do something about the inordinate profits that the oil companies are making? Gulf Oil’s profits went up by 360 per cent. Here comes the Premier now. What is he going to do about the profits of these companies? What is he going to do about the cost of living? What is he going to do about runaway inflation?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. G. Davis (Premier)", "text": [ "Elect Bob Stanfield." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Well, I don’t think that is even within the Premier’s power --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "No, it is not." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "-- because he is going to be so busy looking behind him to try to hold a few seats over there at the next election. He has enough work to do without worrying about Bob Stanfield.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Listen, the Liberal Party in this province will lose, without any question whatsoever." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "I am sorry that the Premier has only come back now, because I did have some choice remarks for him; and I gather the arrival of the Premier has nothing to do with my remarks, that he has come to see His Honour.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I hate to --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Well, I would commend to the Premier, for his weekend reading the instant copy of Hansard, because some of the things I have said may strike a harmonious chord --", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "-- and maybe we can get some laws that are going to help the people of Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "There have been things -- like libraries; we always agreed on that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have talked for a considerable period of time. I have come to the conclusion of the remarks that I thought I should put before the House at this time. I hope that the government will do something about some of the suggestions I have put forward.", "But beyond doubt the most serious problems facing the people of the Province of Ontario are the cost of living and inflation. Unless we come to grips with these kinds of problems -- and I am not a soothsayer -- I think somebody is going to arrive on the political scene, whether they be of the far left or the far right, who is going to promise ridiculous and untoward solutions. And the people are going to be so fed up with the fatuous speeches and the do-nothing promises that somewhere along the line we are going to get a kind of government that will take over the political system and not bother to consult any more.", "If the democratic system is worth preserving, it is time that the Premier and his colleagues paid a little real attention to the major problem that faces the people of Ontario; and that is, how are they going to live on their present income. How are they going to buy houses, food, gas and whatever else they need? Unless we can do something about that, we are all in big trouble -- the democratic process is in big trouble.", "It isn’t enough to hear some of the things we have been hearing. We want some action. We have been here a month now, just a month, and there hasn’t been one important statute yet brought forward by government. Speeches galore, but not one important statute. The government has a responsibility and a duty to do something for the people of Ontario --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "A waste of time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "-- and we haven’t seen it yet." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Perhaps the hon. member for Downsview would like to move the adjournment of the debate.", "Mr. Singer moves the adjournment of the debate.", "Motion agreed to." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor awaits without to give assent to certain bills.", "The Honourable the Lieutenant Governor of Ontario entered the chamber of the legislative assembly and took his seat upon the throne." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. W. Ross Macdonald (Lieutenant Governor)", "text": [ "Pray be seated." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "May it please Your Honour, the legislative assembly of the province has, at its present sittings thereof, passed certain bills to which, in the name of and on behalf of the said legislative assembly. I respectfully request Your Honour’s assent." ] }, { "speaker": "The Clerk Assistant", "text": [ "The following are the titles of the bills to which Your Honour’s assent is prayed:", "Bill 1, An Act to amend the University Expropriation Powers Act.", "Bill 13, the Regional Municipalities Amendment Act, 1974." ] }, { "speaker": "Clerk of the House", "text": [ "In Her Majesty’s name, the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor doth assent to these bills.", "The Honourable the Lieutenant Governor was pleased to retire from the chamber." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, before I move the adjournment of the House, I would like to say that an agreement has been reached to sit on Monday morning at 10 o’clock. We will break for the lunch hour at 12, and reconvene for orders at 2 p.m. I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that we terminate the general debate possibly by 9 or 9:30 Monday evening, giving the windup speakers a half hour each before the votes are called. I think we can allow that to remain somewhat fluid to take care of whoever happens to have the floor at that particular time.", "I would hope that is agreeable to my colleagues across the floor." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am pleased that the House leader has made this suggestion. It will be certainly useful, by an earlier sitting on Monday, to allow additional members to enter the debate and perhaps if we also decide to sit through the supper hour at that time there may be another six or eight speakers who will get this opportunity.", "I think it is fair to suggest at this point that there may be some useful exchange that could occur if the rules committee were to meet to discuss the participation of members in the various debates. Mr. Speaker, as you are aware of course, it is the right of every speaker who enters the debate to speak for as long a time as he or she may choose. I think, though, that we have had five of our colleagues who have used up a goodly portion of time, as is their right, and it may be that some consideration could be given to the members of the House coming to some agreement as to the length of speeches within the Throne Speech and budget debates; that is, of course, with the exceptions of the leadoff speeches and the windup speeches of the respective parties.", "I think we would serve ourselves well if we gave some consideration to that point, as well as perhaps using the occasional Wednesday, if the occasion did come up, to carry on with Throne Speech debate earlier in the usual month that passes between the opening of the House and the presentation of the budget.", "With those comments, which perhaps may be of use to consider in the future, I certainly thank and commend the government House leader for accommodating the opposition in this matter, and I hope that all those who wish to enter the debate will get the opportunity to do so." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Speaker, certainly if we find ourselves confronted with the situation, at 6 p.m. on Monday, that there are sufficient speakers remaining who desire to speak, we will sit through the dinner hour.", "I would also just say that historically in the Ontario Legislature it apparently has not been traditional to place time constraints or limitations on the speakers. However, it does have some appeal, in that a larger number of members would be accommodated and we will have a look at that as this session progresses.", "Hon. Mr. Winkler moves the adjournment of the House.", "Motion agreed to.", "The House adjourned at 1 o’clock, p.m." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. M. Birch (Provincial Secretary for Social Development)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on a point of personal privilege, on April 2 at approximately 9:45 the hon member for Sudbury East (Mr. Martel) made a statement in which he suggested, and I quote: “and I want to tell this House that she lied to the public.”", "I have drawn this to your attention, Mr. Speaker, and I would like to have the hon. member retract this statement." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. W. Martel (Sudbury East)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I think I suggested that the hon. member did, in fact, deliberately mislead the public in some of her statements surrounding LIP funding and the fact that the province did not have any input --" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Withdraw." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "-- I am not about to withdraw into the way the LIP funds would be allocated in this province.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Bullbrook (Sarnia)", "text": [ "Withdraw the statement. It is the easiest way." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I must say to the hon. member that he may have thought he said that the hon. minister had deliberately misled the House. Even if this is what took place, that is not permitted in this House. I have reviewed Hansard and the words are: “She lied to the public.” I read that in Hansard myself. I would ask the hon. member if he would kindly withdraw that remark." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "I will withdraw the remark but she lied and, Mr. Speaker, I just --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "-- add that in my opinion she deliberately misled the public." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member must either withdraw the remark or refuse to; one of the two. Does the hon. member withdraw the remark?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "I will withdraw the remark, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "That’s the boy, that’s the boy." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would like to call to the attention of members of the House the fact that in our galleries today we have with us some 100 students from the Eastwood Collegiate Institute in Kitchener. I hope all the members will join with me in welcoming them to the Legislature." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Statements by the ministry." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. T. L. Wells (Minister of Education)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would like to inform members of the House that we have mailed today to every school board in the province copies of the 1974 general legislative grants and apportionment regulations." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "About time." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells", "text": [ "The new regulations contain a number of important refinements and I would like to draw the members’ attention to these.", "Last August, when the 1974 expenditure ceilings were announced, it was very clear that inflation was having a significant impact on school board spending. For many boards, despite their best efforts to budget wisely, it was becoming increasingly difficult to cope with rapidly rising costs which were beyond their control. Thus the 1974 ceilings as announced in August were increased by 7.9 per cent over the ceilings of the year previous.", "At that time, after evaluation of the predicted impact of inflation, it was felt that the 7.9 per cent increase would adequately accommodate unavoidable cost increases encountered by school boards.", "In the ensuing six months, however, the effects of inflation have continued. Now, in the face of rising costs over which school boards have little or no control, we are concerned that boards may be forced to make budget decisions which could have a detrimental effect on educational programmes.", "We do not want this to happen. Thus the regulations released today include provisions for an increase in the 1974 expenditure ceilings of a further 2.6 per cent, making the total increases in 1974 ceilings over 1973’s approximately 10.5 per cent.", "The revised 1974 ceilings are $704 per elementary school pupil, up 11.75 per cent over 1973; and $1,231 per secondary pupil, up 8.94 per cent over 1973.", "Upon careful analysis we believe that the revised ceilings will permit all school boards to maintain the level of quality which they have achieved in their schools, and avoid decisions which might have a detrimental effect on children in the classrooms.", "It should be emphasized, however, Mr. Speaker, that any decision by a school board to increase its spending to the new ceiling levels is strictly a local board decision. The ceilings are merely upper spending limits and they still require boards to seek economies in their operations.", "The fact that we are today adjusting the 1974 ceilings does not in any way alter the principle of the ceilings which continues to be the policy of this government. The impact of inflation, which has been greater than foreseen earlier, has created a unique situation and we are taking this action to ensure that the ceilings continue to be fair and equitable and reflect the actual conditions faced by school boards.", "There are two other changes in the 1974 regulations which deserve mention at this time.", "One is that the method of calculating grants for French-language instruction has been changed and simplified and will result in increased assistance to most boards in this province for their French language educational programmes.", "Secondly, more grant assistance is also being provided to school boards toward the cost of unapproved debt assumed from the pre-1969 school boards. The maximum mill rate for this purpose will be reduced from 0.75 equalized mills to 0.2 equalized mills for elementary schools and 0.6 equalized mills for secondary schools. Any excess will be met by provincial grants.", "It continues to be government policy that provincial grant support be maintained at 60 per cent of the total cost of elementary and secondary education in Ontario and this policy is embodied in the 1974 regulations.", "The refinements which have been incorporated into the regulations will permit boards to make financial and educational decisions which will benefit their schools in a tangible way. As always, Mr. Speaker, pupils are our prime concern." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)", "text": [ "That was a dignified retreat -- as usual. The minister finally came to his senses." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. J. A. C. Auld (Minister of Colleges and Universities)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, hon. members will recall that on Dec. 3 the Premier (Mr. Davis) advised the House of the government’s decision to establish CJRT-FM as a separate and independent corporation with the capability to operate the present CJRT radio station and to continue its educational broadcasting activities.", "At that time the Premier also stated that a managing board, including members of the private sector and representatives from Ryerson, would be established.", "Mr. Speaker, it is the government’s intention during this session of the Legislature to introduce legislation that will establish the new corporation to run CJRT-FM. In the meantime, I’m pleased to be able to advise hon. members of the establishment of an interim board to help set up the new corporation. The interim board is expected to become the new corporation’s managing board.", "Until the new corporation is established, the interim board will work with Ryerson’s board of governors and keep the minister informed of matters affecting the radio station.", "Members of the interim board are:", "Mr. Donald B. McCaskill (chairman), president, Connlab Holdings Ltd., Toronto; Mrs. Mary Alice Stuart (vice-chairman); Mr. John Twomey, chairman, radio and TV arts, Ryerson Polytechnical Institute; Mr. Frank C. Buckley, vice-president, W. K. Buckley Ltd.; Mr. Cosmo J. Catalano, assistant vice- president, public affairs, Bell Canada; Dr. Abbyann D. Lynch, professor, St. Michael’s College, University of Toronto; Mr. Fred Pollard, principal. Tabor Park Vocational School; Mr. Peter Hunter, president, Sigmun Communications Ltd. and McConnell Advertising Co. Ltd.; Mr. James Pearce, Pearce Audio- Visual Presentations; Mr. John T. Ross, Robert Lawrence Productions Ltd.; Mr. Jack R. Gorman, assistant to the president, Ryerson Polytechnical Institute; Mr. Edward J. Brisbois, president, Challenger Manifold Corp. Ltd.; and Mr. C. R. Finley, acting station manager, CJRT-FM." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. F. S. Miller (Minister of Health)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, in late 1972 and early 1973, as you may remember, the Ministry of Health embarked on an extensive programme to integrate and restructure the ministry itself and to develop a single comprehensive health care programme. And, at much the same time -- actually in January, 1973 -- a health planning task force was established by cabinet directive to develop a comprehensive plan to deliver services to meet the health needs of the people of Ontario; in other words, a plan to complement the internal reorganization of the ministry.", "The man appointed as chairman of this health planning task force was Dr. Fraser Mustard, dean of the faculty of medicine at McMaster University and vice-president of the McMaster Health Sciences Centre, who has considerable experience in heading task forces on major projects. His task force was made up of members of health professions, universities and the field of economics, together with senior ministry officials. All these members brought to the meetings a wide background of individual knowledge and accumulated experience in their own fields.", "Their report, which will be tabled at the appropriate time this afternoon, is a comprehensive study of health care delivery in Ontario. It makes proposals and recommendations that could bring about wide and fundamental changes affecting the entire health care system -- changes in roles, structures and practices at all levels.", "These proposals now require close examination and wide discussion before any other action is taken since, if they are implemented, they could, directly or indirectly, affect the lives of every individual in the province.", "The government has decided that the subject matter of the report makes it desirable that this publication, despite the colour of its cover, should be regarded strictly as a green paper." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur)", "text": [ "For Health, that’s a nice colour." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)", "text": [ "That is clever." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Well, one of our patients bled on it.", "We are committed to the principle of public involvement in the planning of health services. Changes on so wide a scale as the report proposes could not be undertaken by the government without the understanding, co-operation and full support of the public, health professions and health agencies. We want to make sure that these are the issues and that these are the best ways of approaching them. Also we want to find out whether these proposed solutions are the right ones or whether there may be either equally valid or better answers.", "We consider a period of, say, three or four months from the date of publication of the report should be allowed for discussion and proper feedbacks by all interested parties. After that, when we have been able to analyze the response, a comprehensive policy will be formulated." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "Making up for lost time." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. J. R. Rhodes (Minister of Transportation and Communications)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, there has been a press report from Ottawa indicating that charges against motorists for failure to display 1974 validation stickers have been dismissed. At this time we do not have all the particulars of the decision of the court.", "Prior to the implementation of the multi-year licence plate there were two requirements: firstly, that the registration be renewed annually and, secondly, that the plate issued for the current year be displayed. The implications of the introduction of the validation stickers were considered, including their validity.", "However, since the decision of the court in Ottawa has been brought to my attention, I am satisfied after further examination of the Act and regulations that they do not clearly relate the validation sticker to the multiyear plate in respect to the requirements of display. Amending legislation will be introduced at this session to clarify the matter." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "They bungled again." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "There is no defect in the Act and regulations --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "No, no. None at all!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "Just in the minister." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "-- insofar as vehicle owners being required to renew the vehicle registration and pay the prescribed fee." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Is the government going to give them their money back?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Only in the mind of the judge. If he thinks so we will change the Act." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Also there is no impairment in the identification of vehicles and their owners. In these circumstances, I am prepared to recommend refund of fines levied in respect of convictions for failure to display the validation stickers where the registration fee has been paid." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "The hon. member for Armourdale (Mr. Carton) is the most relaxed member of the House." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)", "text": [ "He didn’t have to resign over that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Oh, oh, now we will hear it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. C. Bennett (Minister of Industry and", "text": [] }, { "speaker": "Tourism)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am delighted that the member has been waiting for it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Now here it is." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "I should like to advise the House today of the government’s intention as a result of evaluating feasibility studies for a recreational complex at Maple Mountain in northeastern Ontario. Over the past several months there have been much speculation and comment on what is essentially a normal and continuing programme of my ministry to encourage and support the development --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "That is the problem." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "-- and improvement of Ontario’s tourist industry, an industry which is a major source of jobs and income in this province. A key consideration which led to the investigation of the feasibility of this project was the economic benefits and development which could accrue to northeastern Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. J. Bounsall (Windsor West)", "text": [ "Move it to Windsor." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Tourism is big business and in 1973 it produced over $2 billion in revenue for Ontario business firms." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Oh, the justification!" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Tourism is the third largest industry in this province and tourist-related businesses account for over 200,000 jobs," ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. Sargent (Grey-Bruce)", "text": [ "The minister will change that." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "We have a potential for more and it is my ministry’s responsibility to seek out and explore opportunities." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "What do they pay?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "During the past few months my ministry has been criticized in connection with this programme for being innovative and for seeking ways to improve and enhance Ontario’s tourist facilities. That kind of criticism, Mr. Speaker, I welcome.", "My ministry has also been criticised for having feasibility studies prepared on a recreational complex. That kind of criticism is less easy to accept for, as many good businessmen know, before one invests a lot of money in an idea one also has to be very careful and in addition invest a great deal of hard work and a sufficient amount of money to determine its economic feasibility." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Like Minaki." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Yes, like Minaki, a very valuable project in northwestern Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Bailing out the government’s bankrupt friends again." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Accordingly, Mr. Speaker, over the past several months we have been testing the idea of a Maple Mountain recreational complex to determine how feasible that specific project would be and to provide a more general assessment of the types of tourism-related programmes which show greatest promise for the north. We have also been exploring the various ways a recreational complex like Maple Mountain would develop without government participation.", "There have also been suggestions that the government has not made known its intentions clearly enough and has not permitted the public to participate in the planning process. Mr. Speaker, with all due respect for such suggestions, my ministry has been quite explicit that to this point it has been studying the feasibility -- and I would like to repeat for the information of those in the opposition, the feasibility of the project only. Policy decisions with regard to whether the project would proceed, and how, would be appropriately left to subsequent phases of the overall decision-making process -- and of course include public participation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. F. Laughren (Nickel Belt)", "text": [ "What does that mean?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Indeed, the Provincial Secretary for Resources Development (Mr. Grossman) last Saturday at the resources conference for the Ontario delegations made this very statement." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "After the fact -- hold an inquest after the fact." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "It would be irresponsible for the government to have raised expectations by making premature announcements." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Raised expectations?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "The members opposite have been doing a pretty good job at it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "What is he talking about?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. M. Havrot (Timiskaming)", "text": [ "Why doesn’t the NDP leader dry up?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "As hon. members know, Mr. Speaker, the Maple Mountain concept has its supporters and its detractors -- that is not unusual for a project of this kind.", "There have also been those who have suggested alternative projects for enhancing the economy of the north; or, indeed, for utilizing the land and water around Maple Mountain for non-economic purposes. Such alternative suggestions are neither right nor wrong -- they are just different." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Right." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Based on usual different premises and values." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "By public participation instead of public exclusion." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Obviously, all of the different points of view cannot prevail, given their conflicting nature and the limited funds available for the development." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "How would he know unless he knew?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, our evaluation of the preliminary studies into the economic feasibility of Maple Mountain is now complete, and the government has decided that there is sufficient support for it to widen the basis of its investigation and to proceed into the next phase.", "Of immediate importance, of course, will be the registration of caution by the Bear Island Foundation against all ungranted lands --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I should think so." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "-- in the 110 townships in the North Bay, Sudbury and Haileybury areas, within which Maple Mountain is located. The caution is against the disposition and registration of the land by the Crown and before any further activity can proceed, this matter will have to be satisfactorily resolved.", "At the present time the question of the validity of the caution is in the hands of the director of titles who, pursuant to the Land Titles Act must hold a hearing concerning the validity of the registration of the caution.", "I can advise the House that the director of titles has asked the Bear Island Foundation for particulars regarding its caution. These have now been received and a hearing will be convened at an early date. When the title of the land has been decided, and if the tide is shown to be in the hands of the Crown, then and only then will my ministry proceed with the second phase of the project.", "The second phase will involve a number of studies including environmental impact study, socio-economic study, an attitudinal study, and a mechanism for all interested parties to express their views on the Maple Mountain project." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)", "text": [ "What is the point of that -- after the government has decided?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Many groups and individuals have expressed their interest in participating in the discussions regarding the feasibility of such a project, such as the Ontario Ski Resorts Association, the municipal councils in the area affected, the Save the Maple Mountain Association, the general tax- payers of the province of Ontario -- and, of course, the Indian bands in the local community.", "The second phase of this project will also involve direct approaches to the federal government to find out the interests of the Department of Regional Economic Expansion in providing development grants for northeastern Ontario -- similar to the federal investment of $13 million made in Quebec for the Mont St. Anne resort complex in the eastern part of that province." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)", "text": [ "He wants the federal government to finance it for him." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "We are going to get an airport, too." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Approaches in greater depth will also be made to the private sector to ascertain their interest in investing in the Maple Mountain recreational complex." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The government has already done that." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "The cost of the studies in the second phase is estimated at $160,000. My ministry will be asking the federal government to share, on an equal basis, the costs of these studies.", "I should like to stress, Mr. Speaker, that Maple Mountain is not a fait accompli. There are many decisions still to be made, and many points of view still to be considered. I believe, however, we are now in a position based on the work initiated by my ministry and subject to the hearing respecting the Bear Island caution, to proceed into the second phase.", "As promised, Mr. Speaker, I am filing with the Clerk of the Legislature today a copy of the consultants’ reports prepared to date -- and these are available to the public for its evaluation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A great exercise in public exclusion." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Oral questions. The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask the hon. minister who just made the statement regarding Maple Mountain, if we are to expect, since he has accepted only phase one -- I see he has provided me with considerable documents in that regard-" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "Got all the phases there." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Since he has accepted only phase one and has announced public hearings from the people concerned, presumably in the community of Maple Mountain, in the Tritown area and elsewhere --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "They’re all for it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "-- is it possible that those hearings could recommend to the minister the abandonment of the programme if those views are expressed with force, authority and fact from people concerned? Or are we to accept the minister’s statement that all of these hearings are just a façade, and a fraud and that the basic decision has been made and the programme will go forward? If the latter is true, how much money are we committed for?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I indicated very clearly in the statement that we would have the full hearings --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "What’s the use of the hearings?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "-- once we have the cautions cleared and the title of the land vested in the hands of the Crown." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "What is the point of those hearings if a decision has been made?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "The hearings? Well, if the Leader of the Opposition would read the statement and the report, he might understand. Obviously he wasn’t listening to the statement; he was trying to figure out what kind of annoying question he could ask --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I was listening to the minister, and he said he had decided to go forward and have those hearings later." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. G. Davis (Premier)", "text": [ "He didn’t say that." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "The Leader of the Opposition should try again.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "No, no. Obviously, Mr. Speaker, the leader of the Liberal Party likely is trying to interpret something he’s heard from some other party and not the statement that was made in the House today.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. A. Stewart (Minister of Agriculture and Food)", "text": [ "He’s just catching up." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "He hasn’t got a clue what he’s talking about." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "I said very clearly that we will be holding the hearings and that all parties in this province -- those who wish to invest, the municipal council, the general public, the Indians bands --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "Even the Liberal Party." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "-- would be given the right and the opportunity of expressing their views. And if, in the opinion of those listening to the hearings and eventually the cabinet of this province, the project should not go forward for obvious reasons given, that’s a decision this cabinet will make." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Good. Will the minister then answer the second part of the question? What is the commitment in dollars if we go forward with the full programme?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, if we go ahead with the full programme, the commitment in dollars will be determined at that time. Obviously if the clearing of title takes some period of time and if the hearings should take a period of time, I hope my friend can appreciate that there will be an inflationary effect on the cost of the project.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Surely there is an estimate in this pile of stuff as to what the commitment would be if we were to go forward now?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. White (Treasurer and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs)", "text": [ "Read it over and --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. A. J. Roy (Ottawa Centre)", "text": [ "Yes, sure, read it over --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, that is why I supplied the Leader of the Opposition and the leader of the New Democratic Party (Mr. Lewis) with the complete documentation -- so they might read it and find out.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "But to answer the question, in case the Leader of the Opposition cannot understand the report, we feel that the investment by the Province of Ontario --" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Well, that’s possible." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "You’re a real beauty." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Ruston (Essex-Kent)", "text": [ "The minister doesn’t understand very much about anything, the pipsqueak." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "-- for a complete operation, for phase one and phase two of construction -- would be in the range --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "The minister should have a caution against himself --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Well, I would just take caution if I were the hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order please.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "It would be in the range of about $13.5 million by the Province of Ontario -- and these are projected figures -- and $13.5 million is anticipated from the federal government as well. The balance would come from the private sector." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. T. P. Reid (Rainy River)", "text": [ "Supplementary --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Supplementary, if I may, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I have just read through the studies --", "Interjections by hon, members." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Anything I can do --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well, it’s pretty insubstantial stuff, I’ll tell you. It’s pretty insubstantial.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "The member is not persuaded?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I’m not persuaded, no." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Does the member still think it is a hotdog stand?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Now that the minister is through the process of public exclusion and he has been dragged, kicking and screaming, into phase two, can I ask him if it is his intention to go ahead if he does not get the federal funding and the private sector funding?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. A. Grossman (Provincial Secretary for Resources Development)", "text": [ "We’ve got to hear what the public says first." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "First of all, Mr. Speaker, let us clear up a situation that seems to be prevailing in the mind of the leader of the NDP: Not so many days ago he said, “Are you going to have public participation in the second phase if you should go forward with it?”", "Well, if he would read the statement again he would understand why we are going into a second phase --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "This is a commitment --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "-- but obviously he doesn’t understand English either.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "I very clearly stated that, firstly, the government will do its feasibility study number one and, secondly, we will have participation by all interested parties." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Okay." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "And we’re not being dragged into this. This government has always asked for public participation and input into the Design for Development programme.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "But before we find ourselves --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "That is a ridiculous position.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "Why don’t you give up with your programme?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The minister is a laughing-stock --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "No, the member is -- and we’ll show the public of northeastern Ontario that he is the laughing-stock --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order please." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "-- because obviously in Timmins last Saturday it was he who couldn’t understand English --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "What did I do in Timmins last Sunday?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "He certainly made a speech.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Obviously, sir, if we are to have public participation, we’d like to do it from a knowledgeable point of view, and not just complete input from an unknown source of what we intend to do or would like to do. I think that something should be done for northeastern Ontario in a financial way." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "A supplementary, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Yes, the hon. member for Rainy River with a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if the minister could tell us if public input from only the business sector of the community is what he considers public participation? My primary supplementary, Mr. Speaker --" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Did the member read it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "Yes, I’m a speed reader, too. Can the minister indicate to the House if there are funds to be allocated in the upcoming budget of April 9 and if those funds will, in fact, be earmarked for this project? If this project does not go ahead, will he consider such a project with public participation for the people of northwestern Ontario?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "They have got Minaki Lodge." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "We don’t want that kind." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "First of all, Mr. Speaker, it is our intention --", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "-- to seek not only the business community’s expression of opinion on Maple Mountain recreational complex but indeed that of all the people, the Indian bands included, which is most important." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "Why ask the business community first?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Because we value the business community’s opinion when we are trying to do a feasibility study. I would think --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, one would think that the business community was not the public of this province. To my understanding, they are taxpayers of this province, the same as you and me. Their opinion, to us, is very valuable.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Secondly, in regard to the funds provided in the 1974-1975 estimates, sir, there are funds in there under special projects." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Yes, to what extent? How much?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "That will come all in due course, sir, when the estimates are tabled." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. W. Ferrier (Cochrane South)", "text": [ "A supplementary, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Yes, the hon. member for Cochrane South with a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Ferrier", "text": [ "Does this commitment to proceed to phase 2 mean the minister is not interested in pursuing any other projects of major tourist interest in northeastern Ontario, namely the science centre in our area or some other projects, which might be spread throughout the northeast?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Let me assure all members of this House that because we happen to be now proceeding with phase two of Maple Mountain it does not cut off --", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "-- our consideration of other developments in the Province of Ontario from a tourist point of view." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "I should say not." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "That includes, sir, the science centre in Timmins, for which we now have consultants working on its feasibility and whether we can advance it. I hope we will have a report for this House in a matter of six to seven months." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "And a hotdog stand in Sudbury, too." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Will the minister advise us in advance of the date on which the local registrar is to hold his hearing under the Land Titles Act?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "I think that question would be better placed to the Attorney General of the province (Mr. Welch)." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Perhaps the minister could ask his colleague to let the House know." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "I would suggest the member ask him." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Thank you.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I think there have been quite a large number of supplementaries. The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask a question of the Premier. Now that the ceiling levels for education have been announced, would it be possible for the Premier to make a statement indicating what will be the budgetary controls on the hospitals of the province, particularly the 11 in Metropolitan Toronto which face a strike which, under the law of the province, would be an illegal strike? Could the Premier, either himself or through the Ministry of Health or the Ministry of Labour, allow one of his colleagues to attend the negotiations so that the good faith of the province on behalf of the provision of money for hospitals would be made clear and we could avoid what would be an illegal strike by a statement of government policy in this regard?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I think that is perhaps an oversimplification of the problem. This government obviously is concerned about the possibility of an illegal strike. We will be discussing this with my colleagues, the Minister of Health and the Minister of Labour (Mr. Guindon), in cabinet and quite frankly at this precise moment, Mr. Speaker, I don’t wish to make any further comment.", "I would just say that we recognize the situation, and with great respect, I think the point of having somebody go to indicate what the ceilings may or may not be is something of an oversimplification of the issue." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A supplementary: I realize the Premier said he doesn’t want to say more, but would he not say, surely, that since the ceilings for education have been established it is quite possible, with the budget now only a few days off, to give the specific information to the people concerned so that at least they know the parameters in which they are negotiating?", "He doesn’t want to say more, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A supplementary: The government has just increased the education ceilings quite significantly beyond what most assumed it would increase them; whether they are adequate or not is another matter. Can the Premier at least indicate to those hospitals which have just begun the bargaining process -- the two Scarborough hospitals -- the kind of plan he might have available for them as of May 1, which would set a pattern for the rest of the province? Surely that would make sense?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I think there are a number of things the government will be considering. I’m interested in the observations from the members opposite but quite frankly I’m not prepared to comment any further here this afternoon." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I have a question of the Minister of Housing. Is he prepared to let stand his words as quoted in this morning’s Sun indicating that he said that “families earning less than $17,000 don’t have much to look forward to in the way of owning a home.” Surely this flies in the face of his so-called housing action programme, which is designed to provide housing facilities and, we presume, at least some independent housing facilities for those people with earnings well below that level, since the minister’s statement has really put about 60 to 65 per cent of the people in the province out of any hope of owning a home of their own?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. S. B. Handleman (Minister of Housing)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am grateful to the hon. member for raising the question, because obviously the statement quoted in the Sun is correct but out of context. I made that statement saying that, at the time I made the statement, there did not appear to be anything for people of that income category to look forward to. However, the whole thrust of our programme was to make it possible for people in that income category to look forward with some degree of confidence to owning a home." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "When?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "In the near future. We are talking in terms of 1974, 1975, 1976." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Like at Malvern?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary: Is the minister aware -- and I am sure he is -- that the only approvals for single-family dwellings in the Metropolitan Toronto area recently have been in Etobicoke, where I understand that 302 approvals have been granted for homes selling for no less than $100,000 with a top limit, at present prices, of $150,000? Surely the minister, if he is prepared to support a programme called “action housing,” is going to have to say something more than action will be available soon? Is there something he can say to the House now, in view of the statistics that come day after day in the local press and media, which are, in fact, increasing the pressures on housing prices in the absence of any kind of concrete policy from the government?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "No, Mr. Speaker, I can’t make a specific statement today and possibly not tomorrow either. We are meeting with regional councils, with area municipalities and with the private sector. We are developing agreements which will be announced, because they will be specific in terms of production targets, production dates, prices, the amount of the developments which will be in the public sector and those which will be in the private sector. I hope that when those announcements are made the hon. Leader of the Opposition will join in the general acclaim for the programme, which I have great confidence in." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Well, I will when I have a look at it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: How is it that the Ontario housing action programme is emerging in such fits and starts? Has the minister no overall plan? Secondly, of the four projects announced in Mississauga -- which suddenly emerged from, I think, one of the directors of the ministry -- it was said that 30 per cent of the lots requested from the private sector should be put aside for those earning up to $18,000 a year, but since more than 70 per cent of the province earns less than $18,000 a year, why is the minister asking for only 30 per cent of the lots to provide housing for 70 per cent of the people?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, first of all, the announcement in Mississauga is not the announcement of a specific programme. It is part of negotiations that are ongoing with the municipality and with the developers. I believe that our director, Mr. Strachan, did say, “Say 30 per cent and you may get 40 or 45, depending on our negotiations.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Or 20, or 15." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "There must be an oversupply of serviced lots and the one way to bring that oversupply about is to enable developers to bring their developments on-stream quicker than under the normal procedures." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "The ministry is not doing that." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Well, we will be, Mr. Speaker. That is the whole thrust of the programme." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "It is not happening. It is just not happening." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "In the aggregate, we will create an oversupply of serviced lots, which will automatically have a depressing effect on the market.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "We do not pretend and never have claimed that this is the answer to all of the housing problems, and there are other activities which will take care of other income groups.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "They will not pass it on to the consumers. They will pick up a big profit." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for St. George." ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. M. Campbell (St George)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a supplementary: Are we to take it, then, that the minister is now telling this House that the economic forecasts which have been made, which indicate a major slowdown in the private investment area, are not true? Or what is he, in fact, saying about these forecasts, since he is relying so heavily on the private sector?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "I don’t quite understand the hon. member’s question but I will hazard a guess. If there are economic forecasts about a slowdown in investments, that slowdown has not surfaced in the housing field or in the building field. There may be other areas where there is a slowdown." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "It hasn’t slowed down in the speculation field." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for High Park." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Shulman (High Park)", "text": [ "Can the minister explain why, since he made his original statement about forcing prices down, there has been another five per cent rise in housing prices? Was there any connection with his statement?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, obviously if there was any connection with the statement it did not have the desired effect. What I did say was that we are embarking on a number of programmes which we hope, in the aggregate, will help to solve the problem of housing in Ontario. There is no way that any single programme is going to accomplish that; nor will it be accomplished overnight. We have given ourselves two to three years and we hope the effects will be seen this year and next year." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "The people aren’t going to give the government that long." ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. Campbell", "text": [ "The situation is hopeless." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker, since the minister seems to have some information that he would like to put forward: He says two or three years. What is he going to do when the vacancy rate in the apartments of Metropolitan Toronto falls to zero, as is predicted for this fall, if his programme is simply going to provide some relief within two to three years? We talk about a crisis now. What is he going to do to handle the situation when in September there is simply no accommodation, no matter how much money you have, as far as an apartment is concerned?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, first of all it’s the opinion of my ministry that some of the predictions about zero vacancy rate are self-serving predictions. We are trying to check into the validity of those, because they do come from a group which would benefit by a zero vacancy rate. We do not believe that prediction is valid." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Good point." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Wentworth." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)", "text": [ "Is it then --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I am sorry, I believe the hon. member for Sudbury East was up first." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "May I ask the minister, if we put more land on stream, what assurance has he that savings that are going to accrue to the developer will in fact be passed on to the consumer in the form of reduced housing costs?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Well, Mr. Speaker, the answer to that is quite simple. Before it’s done we will have binding undertakings from the developer which are actionable and enforceable." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Well now, this is developing into a debate, but in order to equalize it I will allow one more question from the Liberal Party. The hon. member for Ottawa East." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, might I ask the minister: In view of the fact that the minister is talking pretty tough to the land speculators, recently and again yesterday, and in fact just echoing what his predecessor in the department had said, and in fact what the Premier had said with no apparent improvement in the situation, does he plan to bring on legislation in relation to land speculation or does he plan to continue the charade of his predecessor?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Put a 100 per cent tax on it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Well, Mr. Speaker, I have come to the conclusion that the cries of anguish and pain which are arising indicate my words are having some effect.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Yes, prices going up." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "And the prices go up." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "He is like Daniel in the lions’ den." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "There has been some reaction; but obviously any legislation to be brought before this House in that regard will be announced in due course." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, through you to the Minister of the Environment, I wonder if he can explain the delay in bringing forward the regulations under the statutes that give him the authority, as Minister of the Environment, to supervise the inspection of septic tanks across the province? This authority passed to his ministry, I believe on April 1, and the lack of a procedure which is understood across the province is holding up the approvals and once again affecting the supply of serviced lots." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Ruston", "text": [ "Especially in Essex county." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman (Minister of the Environment)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the member is talking about part VII of the Environmental Protection Act and its proclamation, which will be done very shortly. All our MOHs have been notified in this province to carry on --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "In the aggregate, yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "-- in the way they are now doing things until this Act has been proclaimed, and it will be proclaimed momentarily." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary: Is it considered that even when it is proclaimed the inspection procedure will increase in cost and also increase in the time required for approvals?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "If the Leader of the Opposition waits until my statement comes out next week he will get the answers to those questions." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "We can hardly wait." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West. I am sorry; all right, one supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. A. Paterson (Essex South)", "text": [ "Will the minister check with his officials to make sure that the medical officers of health in each county health unit are notified to carry on with the procedure as it exists today, specifically Essex county where they are rejecting everything?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, we have no jurisdiction until we do proclaim the Act. We have notified all those who have phoned in requesting information to carry on until the Act is proclaimed." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "What is the delay?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. R. Good (Waterloo North)", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Does the ministry have the staff to take over next Wednesday -- I am sorry, on April 9 -- when the Act will be proclaimed? Does the ministry have the staff to take over or is it being assumed that the medical officers of health are going to continue on as before but charge the minister’s increased rates of which he wants to take a portion?" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "One hundred and twenty-five dollars?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "And bungle it like the Minister of Transportation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "Does the minister think $125 is not an excessive fee to pay for inspection of a private sewage system?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "More of the government’s mess." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "If the member is talking about the MOHs, they were all called into a meeting some time ago. They are fully aware of what we plan to do." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "No they’re not." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "Oh, yes they are.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "As far as the timing of the fee structure goes I will be making an announcement in the House at the first of the week." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I would like to ask of the Minister of Housing, amidst all of the speculative land development in Ontario generally and southern Ontario particularly, why did he fasten on the purchase of 4,000 acres in the regional municipality of Durham? I guess it would be in the area between Brooklin and Whitby. How much did the government pay or what form did it take in terms of government acquisition? What exactly does the minister intend to use the land for?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, first, since the assembly is not complete, I don’t believe it would be in the public interest to speak about specific prices or total acreage or even exact locations. There is no question whatsoever, and many of the people in the area know, that Ontario Housing Corp. is engaging in landbanking in the area. It’s part of the long-range landbank plans of Ontario Housing Corp. It will be kept in agricultural production where it is suited for that use. There are no immediate plans for the use of that land in the housing action programme." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Would the minister explain then why he has banked land some years in the past if not to service the land and use it for housing now? What about the 3,000 acres in Waterloo region and the 1,000 acres right beside Brantford? What’s the sense of having a bank if when we’re in a crisis situation the government doesn’t service the land and sell the lots?" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Get on with it.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the hon. Leader of the Opposition asked a question a few days ago and I had the answer prepared. In regard to the first question, “Why we don’t service it?” it is because the servicing has to be feasible and economical.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "It would seem to me, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. leader would recognize the fact that by servicing isolated landbanks --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Isolated land; 3,000 acres of land?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "It is isolated in the sense that there are private developments in between which are not slated for early development. There would be speculative gains by those people. In the ordinary course of events land would be developed. However, if the hon. leader really expects the 3,000 acres in Waterloo and the 1,000 acres in Brantford township to be developed immediately, perhaps he should speak to the municipal officials in the area because there’s simply no demand for it.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A supplementary, if I may come back to it. Doesn’t the minister see the folly inherent in the policy of grabbing 4,000 acres here -- incidentally without ever speaking to the regional municipality of Durham about it? He didn’t tell them in advance. They read about it in the Globe and Mail. But the government grabs 4,000 acres here, which --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "It happened in Waterloo in the same way." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "-- may, or may not be maintained in agricultural production. The minister can give no undertaking of servicing or housing. There are 3,000 acres somewhere else which he now says were inappropriately acquired for current housing needs. How hapless is the programme? Has the government no coherence in the acquisition of land --" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Not him." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "-- in the public sector for the provisions of housing?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I’m surprised at the hon. member, who decries the speculation being carried on in this province, when --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The government is the chief speculator in Ontario. It is driving the land prices up." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "-- he suggests that we advise him --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The minister has become the king of speculation.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "-- we advise the House, and we advise the municipal officials in advance of landbanking activities.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order please." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Any consultation of that nature would simply play into the hands of the speculators and we’re not about to do that on this side of the House." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "What is the minister talking about?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. P. G. Givens (York-Forest Hill)", "text": [ "The minister is helping them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Would the minister tell us why he is going to be any better than Macaulay or Randall or the member for St. Andrew-St. Patrick (Mr. Grossman) and why he and none of the three have been able to produce houses on the 1,700 acres in Malvern since 1954?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "He’s worse." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Hundreds have gone up." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "That is 20 years ago." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I’m flattered by the hon member’s remarks. I hope I can be as good as my predecessors in this Housing ministry." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "That was so long ago that that was a new government." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "The minister should have a tête-à-tête with the member for Carleton East (Mr. Lawrence)." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I have two supplementaries; I would really be interested in what the minister has to say. Doesn’t the minister believe that when he sets up a regional municipality and decentralizes power and authority, as the Treasurer would have it, that it makes some sense to speak to them, if necessarily privately, in advance about the Ontario government’s intention to acquire a massive acreage for landbanking purposes so that the government’s purposes can mesh with theirs in the planning of a community?", "The second supplementary to that is, doesn’t he realize that in all his so-called scare statements without action, he is driving the speculators --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Why scare statements?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "-- on to an exchange of land which is increasing the speculative price? The minister has become the chief inducement to speculation in Ontario, has he not?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, there are two questions here. In regard to the first part of the question, no, I do not believe that, if you wish to acquire land on a confidential basis, you can involve people outside the ministry, including staff of the municipalities who would have to be involved in the planning process." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "What happens to their planning?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "What does the minister do? Plan around their decisions?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "They will be able to be involved in the plan when the land acquisition has been completed. I have made a commitment to the Leader of the Opposition to table land assembly as soon as it has been completed and I will continue to do so.", "With regard to the second part I have no evidence whatsoever that any threats or words that we have been directing at the speculators have increased speculation. In fact, some people are drawing back from it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Oh yes, no evidence of price increases!" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I started these statements about three weeks ago. If the hon. member can complete a land transaction in three weeks he has a secret that many people would like to have." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Can the minister assure us, even though he didn’t talk to the officials in the areas where he has bought these lands, that he had somebody look at the official plan to see if the purchases fitted in with the decisions that had been made publicly? I don’t believe the minister even did that." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I stated in answer to a previous question that much of this land is agricultural. It will be maintained in agricultural production, which it might not have been if it had been bought by private developers." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Is this government policy to buy up land privately to keep it in agricultural production?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "In my view, the government is as good a landbanker as is any private organization." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "We are going to send this Hansard to the minister’s riding. They will love it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I have a question, Mr. Speaker, of the Treasurer. Since the federal government’s submission to the Pickering airport inquiry shows that if the airport is built Oshawa’s employment will decline in absolute terms, doesn’t the minister think it is now time for the Ontario government to intervene and indicate that that would truly destroy the intent of the Toronto-centred region plan and it must, therefore, oppose the airport?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "This comment is interesting and perhaps helpful, but I haven’t got the leadership in this matter of Pickering. That is the Minister of Housing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The Minister of Housing? Hasn’t he enough to do?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "That he is not doing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "May I ask the minister a supplementary? Surely a matter which destroys the Toronto-centred region plan, and it deals with the federal airport, is rather more his bailiwick than that of the Minister of Housing?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "What happened to the Design for Development?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "What has happened to the Design for Development now that this kind of proposal will destroy it utterly? Oshawa was a growth centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "As the member may recall, last Sept. 13 the Premier announced that the Toronto-centred region plan was being reconsidered and revamped and modernized." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "He should have thought of doing that to the cabinet." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "He said that a sum of money -- I think $1,500,000 -- was being made available to the municipalities in this very large and important region. That study is going on. Factors, such as the one the member mentioned, will no doubt be considered and we will have a point of view which may be expressed at a later time to the federal government." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for York Centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. M. Deacon (York Centre)", "text": [ "Since the whole matter of dispersing and directing growth to the east was a major platform and a major principle of the Toronto-centred region plan, would the Treasurer not consider, in his responsibility for the economic growth and direction of the province, that it is important immediately to prepare a new plan and a new location for the airport or any type of growth incentive far to the east so Oshawa, in fact, will be helped?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "Your friends in Ottawa are the people who decided upon that second airport." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "“Your” friends? They are your friends." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "That was not our decision." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "In this case, they are your friends." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "How about a statement from the Premier?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "The hon. Premier is perfectly correct in saying we are doing everything humanly possible to increase development in eastern Ontario --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "The government hasn’t done a thing, not one thing." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. While", "text": [ "-- as evidenced by the very large DREE agreement signed in Cornwall a few weeks ago by me and witnessed by the Minister of Labour." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "A good thing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Yes, our friends are providing that money." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "I think we signed the deal on a Tuesday, and only a few days later on the following Friday a very large company announced they were creating a very large new plant there employing more than 1,000 employees." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Excellent." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "We are moving ahead in this and in a variety of other ways. I suppose there is no point in this answer to recapitulate the improvements made to the Ontario Development Corp. plans. No doubt, as time goes by, the fruitful imaginations of members on this side will create additional innovative plans to create development and employment in eastern Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "What about the airport? That is the key one." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "This government’s plans and federal money! A great team." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "I haven’t heard a decent idea out of that side of the House for 15 years, not one." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Come in more often." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order please." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Can I ask the Minister of Revenue, could he indicate to the House whether he knows how many of the major oil companies with operations in the Province of Ontario paid a provincial corporation income tax last year?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. A. K. Meen (Minister of Revenue)", "text": [ "I don’t have that information, Mr. Speaker, but I think I could get it for the hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Would he indicate which companies paid a provincial corporation income tax and in what amount -- even in total?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "I am not prepared to disclose information as to individual companies, Mr. Speaker. I think I might be able to obtain some general information." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Surely that is public information?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "But that is public knowledge." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Sorry, I didn’t hear that. The minister is not prepared to disclose the amounts of corporate income tax paid by the oil companies to the Province of Ontario -- public oil companies operating in this province?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Does the minister understand the distinction between a private company and a public company?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Now surely we are entitled to that information. Who is the minister protecting?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "The minister had better think about that again." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "There are certain restrictions under the Income Tax Act, Mr. Speaker, that I must be bound by. I’ll look into the question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I am talking about -- what did he say at the end? I’m sorry." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "I said I will look into the question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Thank you." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Does the hon. member for Scarborough West have further questions?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "No, sir." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Minister of Agriculture and Food has the answer to a question asked previously." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the question that was asked by the member for Huron-Bruce (Mr. Gaunt), which I took as notice, was:", "Because of the judgement plus costs awarded today against the Ontario Ministry of Agriculture and Food in the Hartman raspberry case, and because the Ontario taxpayers are going to have to pay for this mistake, could the minister tell me if there have been any changes in personnel at the Vineland research institute by way of resignations or firings; and what does the minister intend to do to see that this doesn’t reoccur?", "Mr. Speaker, the question was raised shortly before 3 o’clock on Thursday, March 14, 1974, and refers to “the judgement plus costs awarded today.” The facts of the matter are as follows:", "1. The Ontario Court of Appeal issued its judgement in the Hartman case on Nov. 9, 1973;", "2. The judgement directed a reference to the local master at St. Thomas for assessment of the damages in the case;", "3. The report on assessment of damages was signed, and therefore issued, by the local master, Mr. Justice J. A. Winter, a local master of the Supreme Court of Ontario, St. Thomas, on Friday, March 15, 1974;", "4. The report was received by the Crown law office, Ministry of the Attorney General through the mail on Monday, March 18, 1974." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Why doesn’t the minister answer the question? Answer the question." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "I’ll get to the answer." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Not all that doubletalk." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "I’ll get to the answer; and if the member for Grey-Bruce were smart enough to listen he would see the implications in what I am saying." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "The member for Grey-Bruce just got the raspberry." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "I am not in a position, therefore, Mr. Speaker, to deal with any judgement plus costs in the Hartman case. It was awarded on Thursday, March 14, 1974, and I wonder how the member for Huron-Bruce could have been in possession of such information on which to base his question. That is very peculiar to me." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "It is in the paper. All the papers carried it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "However, if the question relates to the report on assessment of damages, a document of the Supreme Court of Ontario that had not been signed by the local master until the day following the day on which the question was raised, my information is that the Ministry of the Attorney General, by notice of appeal dated March 25, 1974, has undertaken an appeal from the report of the local master. Accordingly, the case is sub judice and I am not prepared to comment on any aspect of the Hartman case while it is still in the hands of the court." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "What is the minister doing now?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. Campbell", "text": [ "Sub judice." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Gaunt (Huron-Bruce)", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Explain the manipulations of the courts." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gaunt", "text": [ "May I ask the minister, on a slightly different matter related to the Hartman case, why Mr. Hartman was refused plants in 1973? Does this represent government policy, not to do business with anyone who has a law suit or --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Givens", "text": [ "Who doesn’t happen to be a Conservative." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gaunt", "text": [ "-- who is undertaking a suit against the provincial government?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Anybody the minister doesn’t like." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "I have never met Mr. Hartman; as a matter of fact I have never seen him, in answer to the question of my hon. friend the Leader of the Opposition. To say I don’t like him --I’ve never met the man." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "There are lots of people one doesn’t know whom one doesn’t like." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Why doesn’t the minister sell him some raspberry plants?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "For the simple reason I didn’t even know he wanted any." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "We tried to give the Leader of the Opposition the raspberry for a long time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Would anyone buy raspberries off a man like that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Not even a used raspberry." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Not from the member, but I would from him." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "He’s an arch Tory." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "A supplementary: Would the Minister of Agriculture clear my confusion with regard to his answer? Is he telling the member for Huron-Bruce in that long recital that he’d done something improper? Is he not aware that the member for Huron-Bruce could legitimately get that information on which he based his question by reason of the fact that the formal order may not have been taken out on the day he put the question, and the local master could well have announced it without the formal order having been signed?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Yes, answer that one; let the minister get some help." ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. Campbell", "text": [ "Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "I suppose there is no significance in the fact that the matter was transferred to the court at St. Thomas and was handled by a lawyer who was a former Liberal member for Elgin --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Right on." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A former Liberal member?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "A supplementary: Why was it necessary for the Minister of Agriculture to get so incensed about legal procedures which he doesn’t understand, and to make nasty innuendoes about my honest and sincere colleague, the member for Huron-Bruce?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Does the hon. minister have an answer to another question?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Why is the minister appealing? Just because it was a Liberal lawyer?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "That’s the only reason." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "A supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "A supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Am I to understand that the minister has done $100,000 damage to one citizen and that no one will be fired or no one will be questioned as to the damage done? Will this go on like this or is he going to investigate the whole matter?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the matter is before the courts on appeal to determine what action shall properly be taken." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "A supplementary: I’m asking if the minister is going to investigate the fact that someone has erred in his job -- to the extent of $100,000 to a citizen -- and is the minister not going to investigate it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "It is out of order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Get the member for Downsview to give some legal advice." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I think the hon. minister has indicated that this is before the courts." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "I don’t care if it is before the courts. What is he going to do about it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Nothing, it is before the courts.", "Does the hon. minister have the answer to another question? I was informed that he had." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Answer the question." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "The hon. member for Lanark (Mr. Wiseman) is absent today and I think I’d best wait until next week." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations has the answer to a question recently asked." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. J. T. Clement (Minister of Consumer and Commercial Affairs)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Wentworth asked a question in this House on March 28; really there were two questions. Firstly, and I’m paraphrasing his question directed to me, what was the basis on which dental rates were determined; how were they determined; and secondly why were dentists -- and he referred to a certain plan or plans -- charging more for their services to people under those plans than to those who were uninsured?", "I’m advised by the superintendent of insurance, Mr. Speaker, that the premium rates for health insurance plans, such as dental care, covering major companies are negotiated by the insurers, the employer companies and, to a great extent, the union representing the employee group. The rates and coverages offered are determined by the underwriting and claims experience and the extent of coverage subject to deductibles and co-insurance elements. If the hon. member has any specific complaint in regard to the rates relating to one or both of the companies he referred to in his question, I would be glad to discuss it with him.", "Insofar as the professional fees charged by the dentists are concerned, this is not within the responsibility or jurisdiction of my ministry but is related to the Ontario Dental Association’s schedule of fees. The insurance contracts usually provide for payments based on this fee schedule. If the member has any other question relating to that --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "A supplementary: I was under the impression, perhaps mistakenly, that the minister was going to ask the superintendent of insurance to inquire into the schedule being paid at the Steel Co. and the Dofasco plants in the city of Hamilton." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "I am sorry, I didn’t understand it that way. If the member would like us to take a look at the actual schedule or the agreement to see if it refers to the ODA schedule of fees, I can obtain that information very quickly." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Minister of Energy has the answer to a question asked previously." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. W. D. McKeough (Minister of Energy)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on Tuesday, I think, the member for Yorkview (Mr. Young) asked questions relating to inventories of fuel oil, and I have an answer for him.", "Spring inventories of middle distillates in Ontario have been more or less constant for the past three years. In other words, there has been no apparent buildup this spring by the oil companies; nor has there been a decline from previous years. Warmer-than-usual weather is the main factor in these inventories not being lower than in previous years.", "Statistics are not available for heating oil per se; only middle distillates are reported -- which includes all heating oil, diesel fuel and so on.", "But the predominant factor in changes in this total middle distillate inventory is the amount of heating oil, and we assume and can assume that the percentages are relatively the same.", "The figures cover all the refinery tankage and major terminals in Ontario west of the Ottawa Valley. They do not include small storage tanks, such as bulk plants, which are assumed to be relatively constant, and therefore not significant in looking at relative inventory changes.", "These are from National Energy Board sources, not from Statistics Canada, and Statistics Canada’s May figures sometimes differ slightly when they are published some months hence.", "The figures are, Mr. Speaker: as of March 31, 1972, there were about 7.1 million barrels in storage; March 31, 1973, 7.3 million barrels; April 3, 1974, about 7.1 million barrels.", "The member also asked -- or perhaps I suggested I would try to find out -- the figure as to storage; and I am informed that there is no meaningful number as to total storage capability because the oil refineries -- where me large volumes are -- swing their storage tanks from one product to another as various product levels change.", "A more helpful yardstick might be the peak or the highest middle distillate inventory attained this season. This occurred in October or November, at the start of the season when levels were about 15 million barrels, which is over twice today’s. The figures, starting in June of 1973, 7.1 million; July 8.1; August 10.8: September 13.5; October 14.7; November 15; December 14.8; January 13.6; dropping down to the present 7.1." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "May I ask a supplementary?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "The member for Sandwich-Riverside (Mr. Burr) --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Is this a supplementary?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "May I assume that the inventory evaluation that the minister has given to the House is based on information provided by the industry itself or through the National Energy Board or Statistics Canada; and does the minister have any independent method of monitoring the propriety of these statistics?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "No." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Would it be the minister’s intention to establish, as they have in the United States, some independent monitoring device?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "No, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Could the minister answer why that wouldn’t be in the public interest to do so?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "Because the statistics are gathered both by the National Energy Board and by Statistics Canada. There is some large staff involved in that process." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "Dependent on them." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "We have no reason to believe that they are not as accurate as they can be -- and we have no intention of duplicating that process." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Time for oral questions has expired." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Not a single private member got in today, not at all." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Petitions:", "Presenting reports.", "Hon. Mr. Bennett presented the report on the Maple Mountain recreation complex.", "Hon. Mrs. Birch presented the report of the health planning task force." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "On behalf of the Attorney General, I have the honour to present to this House the report of the Ontario Law Reform Commission on motor vehicle accident compensation.", "This report, which covers 197 pages, contains an extensive review of the existing system of automobile insurance and sets out the recommendations of the commission for chaises in the system. The commission recommends:", "That an integrated scheme specifically concerned with compensation to motor vehicle accident victims, not dependent upon the fault principle, should replace the existing system.", "As Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations I will be giving these recommendations careful consideration in developing the most appropriate form of automobile insurance designed to provide economic and efficient compensation to victims of motor vehicle accidents.", "Mr. J. A. Taylor, from the standing private bills committee, presented the committee’s report which was read as follows and adopted:", "Your committee begs to report the following bills without amendment.", "Bill Pr1, An Act respecting the City of Belleville.", "Bill Pr2, An Act respecting St. Catharines Slovak Club Ltd.", "Bill Pr7, An Act respecting the Niagara Peninsular Railway Co.", "Bill Pr8, An Act respecting the Incorporated Synod of the Diocese of Ontario.", "Bill Pr10, An Act respecting Root’s Dairy Ltd.", "Bill Pr14, An Act respecting the Town of Walkerton.", "Bill Pr19, An Act respecting the Borough of North York.", "Your committee would recommend that the fees, less the actual cost of printing and penalties, if any, be remitted on Bill Pr8, An Act respecting the Incorporated Synod of the Diocese of Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Motions:", "Introduction of bills." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. D. R. Irvine (Minister without Portfolio)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, this bill provides for some minor changes in the work of the new regional council which, incidentally, assumed its important responsibilities this past weekend.", "It allows the new regional committee of adjustment and the land division committee to complete any matters not disposed of by the local committees.", "This bill also provides that members of the council of the village of Jarvis be deemed a commission under the Public Utilities Act for the purpose of hydro distribution in the Jarvis area." ] } ]

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[ { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, if I might give a brief explanation of this bill, under the Judicature Act in this province, English is the only language permitted in the courts. This bill proposes an amendment which is in line with the 1972 Throne Speech presented by the government, which said it would encourage the use of French in the courts, and this is what this bill does." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. G. W. Walker (London North)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I will just serve notice that I will move in committee that the board of governors in that particular bill be made Canadian, although it does not now say so." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Orders of the day." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, before the next order is called, I would like to inform the members of the House that tomorrow His Honour will join us in the chamber for the last time." ] }, { "speaker": "Clerk of the House", "text": [ "The third order, resuming the adjourned debate on the amendment to the amendment to the motion for an address in reply to the speech of the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor at the opening of the session." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. E. W. Martel (Sudbury East)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, before I pick up from where I left off the other night, I want to go back to the point of order or the point of personal privilege raised by the Provincial Secretary for Social Development (Mrs. Birch) --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order please. That matter has been resolved in the House. The hon. member may not raise it again." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "I am not going to raise it, Mr. Speaker. I just want to clarify the press release that I was quoting from and just draw to Mr. Speaker’s attention what was behind the comment. In a press release, a prepared statement by the minister, which was carried in the Globe and Mail on Nov. 21, 1973 -- and I quote the hon. minister -- it states:", "The moneys handed out in grants were never adequately managed by the federal government. There was never adequate supervision or accountability within the projects, and without clear accountability the money paid out resembled allowances more than it did salaries. The projects selected seemed to be picked on the basis of how they would sound in the Ottawa press releases rather than by hard scrutiny of the benefits.", "Mr. Speaker, the Ontario government did in fact have an input, or could have had an input, on each and every grant handed out by LIP. I was on a programme with Mr. Mackie, the director for the distribution of these grants, wherein Mr. Mackie indicated that Ontario had an input on each grant and that if the Ontario government did not want a grant to be paid, Ottawa would not have given it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. F. Drea (Scarborough Centre)", "text": [ "The Church of Satan. How about the Church of Satan?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Well, the member’s government had a say in it -- they had the opportunity to have a say in it and veto it, and if they had not taken that opportunity --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. C. Germa (Sudbury)", "text": [ "What’s wrong with the Church of Satan?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "-- if the government of Ontario had not taken that opportunity then that simply cannot be blamed on Ottawa. To me that is dissembling -- I think that is the term that is used around here occasionally. It is dissembling, because one could have gone on to give the full story to the press so that in fact the public would have been well aware of how the grants were handed out, Mr. Speaker.", "By the minister’s failure to indicate that to the public, what in fact the minister was doing of course was starting the long road to finally saying no, we are not funding any of the emerging services. That was the first in a series of statements by the minister which sounded the death knell to the emerging services starting last November. Whether or not the minister took exception to what I said, I still make the point it was dissembling.", "I want to go on, Mr. Speaker, and pick up from where I left off the other night. I was talking about the amount of funding provided by the provincial government for immigrant services in this province. The total funding, permanent funding, for immigrant services in Ontario, where in Metro Toronto alone one-third of the populace is made up of immigrants, is $100 a year. That’s the total funding.", "Last year the services involving the Chinese, the Greeks, Italians and Portuguese, and there is three staff on each, went to the federal government, to Metro Toronto, and to the province, and asked each of the three levels to put up $10,000 each for the various services. Ultimately the federal government gave $10,000; ultimately Metro Toronto gave $10,000. Finally in June -- the request was made early in the year -- the province wrote back to the immigrant services and said, “Could you cut that back to $5,000?”", "This didn’t help the four groups in question and they said no. Ultimately come January 1974, almost a year later, each of these groups received a grand total of $750 each or $3,000. That was Ontario’s contribution. Despite the fact that one-third the population of this city is made up of immigrants, we funded those services to the maximum tune of $750 each, or $15 a week -- $15 a week -- to help in translation for the immigrant community. The chiselling that this government does when it comes to services to people is more than the mind can understand.", "The third group that started to emerge some years ago was the multi-service centre, Mr. Speaker. These groups have developed like the rest out of necessity -- the inability of the Minister of Community and Social Services (Mr. Brunelle) to get adequate funding to hire adequate staff to do the job necessary. He just hasn’t got the money to hire the staff.", "As I said to the minister during his estimates, if we are going to lose all of the emerging services and the thousands of volunteer workers, then in fact we are in trouble. We are in serious trouble, because what most of the emerging services are asking for is a funding for the permanent staff. Beyond that they then start to draw in all kinds of voluntary staff -- people who are committed to assisting others less fortunate. But we are going to lose those work groups and as I have told the minister on many occasions, he will not get enough money from Treasury Board. Treasury Board will not cough up nearly the money necessary to provide the services that are presently here, because they rely heavily on volunteers.", "The government has got to fund the permanent staff. Is that too hard to understand? Otherwise, it’s not only going to lose them but it’s going to lose the thousands upon thousands of volunteer workers, and as a province we simply will not have the money to fund the necessary staff the Ministry of Community and Social Services is going to need in order to meet the needs of people as society becomes more complex.", "The multi-service centre takes a family and looks at its total needs, it tries to cut through the red tape and get the total need of the family resolved. The government agencies don’t do that.", "A welfare worker goes into a family that has problems. It doesn’t have to be a welfare case, it can be any other type of problem in a family, but whatever the agency is it only looks at the one problem. If there’s an emotionally disturbed child they simply look at the problem of the emotionally disturbed child, they don’t look at the total problem of the family. So we end up with 12 or 13 agencies looking after the needs of one family.", "This sort of thing is on record. The minister has it documented over and over again. His staff does one job only. The Ministry of Labour staff will go in and they’ll send another worker in, the Ministry of Health sends a worker in; there’s no co-ordination. There’s nobody there to look after the total need or to make sure that the total need is being looked after by one person who might send the person off in the right direction or get them in touch with the right people and then do the follow-up necessary, looking at it as a total need.", "We’ll send them in. We send them in by the hundreds; frequently there are 10 or 12 agencies working with the same family and none of them even know it. They don’t even know there’s another agency involved. That’s where the duplication is, right within government circles; the duplication starts there, not where the minister placed it later on in one of her further statements which I’ll read in a few moments. This is where the duplication is.", "Multi-service centres are trying to cut through some of that and look after the total need. Every member of this Legislature knows when he goes home on weekends the number of cases he gets, and I suspect the overwhelming majority are in social needs. Not necessarily welfare or more money on welfare, but a whole range of social needs that we’re not meeting. The Metro work groups which have started to develop are filling the gaps in the ministry’s own jurisdiction.", "I just want to read you, Mr. Speaker, what the Metro work group on community services is:", "Many of the human services projections initiated through the Local Initiative Programme reflect a trend in service delivery which deserves particular attention. Experienced service workers indicate recipients of service in communities are often most effectively served when a cluster of services are provided in one community location. These could be recreation or leisure services, or interrelated services offered in one setting such as education and counselling or information and referral, food relay, daycare, creative play and parental education. More and more community-based services are multi-faceted in the programmes and services they provide.", "There is not, anywhere in government, an agency that does that. It’s totally lacking, and everyone over there knows that. Until we start to pull these pieces together we’re going to be squandering money uselessly.", "The first group that developed out of these emerging services two years ago was one involved with daycare centres. The rules and regulations that surround daycare centres, Mr. Speaker, almost boggle the mind. They are so restrictive that in fact they hamper, really hamper, the development of daycare centres.", "In the city of Toronto it would be difficult to find those that are funded by the government in any way, shape or form remaining open at night. Yet we have many people who work from 4 to 12, including mothers who might be working 4 to 12 and single-parent families, with no daycare services at night. Those that have the daycare centre service at night are the ones that are looking for funding from the government of Ontario so that in fact they can provide services contrary to what goes on in this province, where most of the services are from 9 o’clock on Monday morning to 5 o’clock on Friday afternoon. What one does for services beyond those hours is difficult to understand. That is when most of the services are available. The crisis situation, the evening services are not there. But this group, because they are grass root, realize that there has to be flexibility in the daycare services. But not so. The government just sits and waits.", "They have been led a merry chase too. You will recall the group first met and tried to get funding from the government a year ago May, but on March 15 the crunch came. They had been misled all along into thinking something was coming. Here is part of their statement:", "We find it incomprehensible that approximately nine months later, in February, 1974, the daycare community still has no indication of what to expect from the regulations, whether it will turn out to be a token gesture or a redefinition of the concept of daycare and its implications for parents and children in general. If the regulations will prove to be restrictive in relationship to emerging community services, these closely budgeted groups will still be economically harassed from one month to the next and the quality of daycare, an apparent concern to educators and parents, will inevitably suffer.", "The Social Arts Services was the sixth group that developed. I read to the House the other night the performances by the Smile Company alone.", "In over two years of operation we have played more than 500 performances to a total audience [I hope the minister is listening to this] of 75,000 senior citizens in Metro Toronto alone.", "These are people who couldn’t afford to go to the O’Keefe Centre, or people who couldn’t afford to go to see the Toronto Symphony. This group of 11 people took their company into the homes and provided entertainment for over 75,000 senior citizens. Their funding? Well they will die in a couple of weeks.", "We as a province spend more money on the fine cultures, the stuff that the upper crust enjoys, than we do funding things for the masses, for the ordinary people. How many of the ordinary people go to watch the ballet? There is a growing interest in it, and I am not saying we shouldn’t fund it, but culture, I am sure, shouldn’t be denied to the other groups. If we are going to fund one level why can’t we fund them all?", "The statement from the minister several weeks ago was, “Well we fund through the Ontario Arts Council.” That is great. They fund through the Ontario Arts Council. I would like the minister to be able to tell me why the groups that were providing some theatre for 75,000 senior citizens in the last couple of years, and schools and so on, shouldn’t be adequately funded? I would like to ask the minister how in fact we get the senior citizens out to any of these forms of entertainment? Many of them are not totally bedridden -- many of them are", "-- but they can’t make the great trek halfway across Toronto. Why shouldn’t the entertainment come to them? That’s what’s happened; they are not getting funding either. In fact nothing is getting to the senior citizens. He is going to put the panic on there. Interestingly enough, the ministry -- the statement I’m going to read in a few minutes is going to help -- is giving a one-shot deal, $150,000, for senior citizens. That is a magnificent sum. All it is going to do, really, is get a lot of groups active in the province for one year and without a continuing funding. In fact, he is going to overextend the funds already available in the $900,000 for senior citizens.", "After 10 or 11 months, surely to God this government --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. R. Brunelle (Minister of Community and Social Services)", "text": [ "The funds will be there next year." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "No, it is a one-shot grant." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle", "text": [ "Give them time to conform." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "The Ministry of Community and Social Services, to help the emerging services, gave a one-shot grant -- and it is only one-shot, for one year -- of $150,000. That is insufficient and the minister knows that full well; he has had it researched from top to bottom. He has had David Cole and a whole number of civil servants from his ministry on it; those programmes have all been checked out and the recommendations have been positive that the programmes being offered are superb.", "Contrary to what the think-piece thinks, they are superb; the minister knows it from David Cole’s report. All the reports the minister has indicate that there isn’t duplication of service and that they are providing a much needed service.", "The former provincial secretary accepted the recommendations laid down by David Cole. I’m sure the minister must have. Where did the crunch come? Before Treasury Board, as usual, when it said services to people are irrelevant. The minister and I both know there is no way he is going to be able to provide the services, if these various services fold, which are going on in this city and across Ontario today.", "I want to describe some of the programmes very briefly. One is entitled “For a Better Tomorrow”, from Bathurst St., and the objectives are:", "We hope to aid the youth of immigrant families in acclimatizing themselves to a new environment and a new language by offering a programme which encompasses both educational and recreational activities.", "Members will recall that for immigration, for the newly arrived immigrants, we have $100 permanent funding; we had a total fund last year from the Minister of Community and Social Services of $100,000. The people out there to whom I’ve spoken of late tell me most of the $100,000 goes for cultural events; but to really help those people adjust -- not just the children -- it is going to have to go much beyond children.", "It is going to have to go to the adults because they come from a different type of background from the one we know here. The young children are going to be raised in our type of environment, and the rift growing between those groups is almost intolerable; what do we provide for services to overcome it? They are good enough to pay approximately one-third of the tax, I suppose, in Metro Toronto and the government puts in $100 of permanent funding. It’s a disgrace.", "Here is the second programme. I could go through 160 of these; I have them all here. I am going to pinpoint a few items from each of the various services.", "The Birchcliffe Community Concern Office and its objectives:", "To unite the members of the community, those that have and those that need. To give knowledge to all members of the community, to make them better citizens and make their community a better place in which to live.", "What does this service provide, for example? Domestic, handyman and volunteer service to the elderly and shut-ins. We talked about that during the minister’s estimates -- if we hope to keep senior citizens out of institutions we are going to have to bring groups together so that those who are capable can assist the elderly to stay in their homes.", "Well, what better way? We are not going to have the staff, and does the minister think volunteers can have an ongoing programme if there isn’t some permanent staff? Surely to God the minister must realize that to have ongoing programmes we have to have people who are there constantly -- not all of them -- then we draw on volunteers to do work for these people. But if we are not even going to provide funding, then we are going to have to build more nursing homes and more homes for the aged and put people in places they don’t want to be in. Most of them, if they could get a little assistance, would love to stay in their homes as long as possible, because most of them are very independent.", "Community on the Move is just another one. This is a social service for and by the residents of Lawrence Heights, an Ontario Housing development; it provides leadership training, recreational programmes, hot lunch programmes, information centre and a com- munity newspaper.", "Agincourt Community Services Association was established to provide an ongoing referral service responding to local needs by instituting programmes to meet various needs in the community and to facilitate information exchange among people living and working in Agincourt.", "Community Meals, at 240 Wellesley St., has as its objective to provide nutritious and sociable meals for senior citizens and handicapped persons. That’s going to go down the drain. The meals-on-wheels programme is going to collapse or the government is going to have to eventually fund the whole thing itself -- and it is not going to have the money.", "What else does the service provide? In addition to nutritious and sociable meals for senior citizens and handicapped persons, it is interested in expanding into programmes on nutrition and budgeting and an emerging programme of preparing meals for bedridden persons seven days a week. That’ll keep them in their homes. It’ll give them company and make their lives less lonely. But no, this government will watch it go down the drain.", "The LIP project. Phase two for Exceptional Adults, aims to introduce and train mentally handicapped adults to enter into society. What does this service provide? It teaches mentally handicapped adults, not acceptable at existing workshops, the basis of home economics, manual workshop skills and elementary office procedures, and trains in speech therapy, social behaviour and physical education. Well, there is another one going down the drain.", "Call-A-Service provides social service for the elderly and the handicapped, such as transportation, keeping the elderly independent as long as possible. The transportation is to take senior citizens to see doctors, to go to the hospital, to go shopping, to go visiting, to attend church events, and there is a telephone service for shut-ins.", "Inter-City-Angels was established to expose and involve children in the multitude of art forms available in society. Artists in different media are employed to provide workshops for children, mainly in the inner-city elementary schools. And if we know anything about the problems in the inner-city schools in Toronto, we know that those are some of the most deprived schools in Metro. Some of the hardest problems, the toughest sledding is in that area. That doesn’t matter?", "Future Opportunity: The objective of this service is to provide an in-depth free tutorial service of high quality to those who would be unable to avail themselves of such assistance due to financial consideration. The service provides tutorial aid in remedial reading, remedial English, English as a second language and mathematics primarily for school-age children and adolescents of immigrants and low-income families. Adults are also accepted if aid is needed for employment or correspondence high school courses.", "One service to seniors was set up to help senior citizens in any way -- health, information, transportation, visitation.", "The Kuriov Metro Housing Project Youth Service has as its objective to work with the children and the youth in the Ontario Housing area. It provides clubs, sports, craft$, bus trips for children and youth and a summer camp. One has only to have lived in a high-rise for a while or gone out to visit some of the Ontario Housing Corp.’s developments, before they became somewhat more enlightened, to realize the vital need for that type of programme. One only has to go over to St. James Town, where my colleague and I lived for a while, where there are 10,000 or 20,000 people in a knothole to see the total lack of programmes for children.", "Interval House is a residential distress centre for sole-support mothers and children. Service is directed to women in emotional, financial and housing crises. But does this service provide basic food, shelter, clothing needs, baby sitting, children’s activity, counselling, residence with referral and follow-up programme and distress calls?", "Mr. Speaker, the list is endless. One gets almost to a point of despondency over the reaction of the government of Ontario with respect, as I said the other night, to the service that comes under provincial jurisdiction. Under the constitution of this country, this government is responsible for social needs. The people that are funding it are the federal government, the United Fund and the municipalities. And where in God’s name is Ontario? It’s out in the woodwork. It hasn’t funded a cent.", "I’ve seen the game go on in here year and year. I’ve watched it played with the Indian community as the government banters back and forth over who is constitutionally responsible for the Indians. They are the pawns in the game. The minister knows this. Like myself, he comes from northern Ontario where we know the plight of the Indians and what they have been put through and continue to be put through as we play the game of who is responsible.", "We know who is responsible in the field of social services in Ontario. We know whose constitutional responsibility it is. And we also know who hasn’t provided the funds to keep these services which everyone, including this minister’s staff, has indicated are absolutely vital and necessary services.", "I could go on, Mr. Speaker, with these. I won’t. I want to turn now to something else, if I might. By the way, this whole bundle is the programmes just in Metro Toronto alone that are going to go down the drain. It is surely going to be an interesting day to see what the minister is going to do for staff, if he has to put staff in to meet the demands that have been created by the type of complex society we are in.", "I want to turn to the minister’s statement though. You will recall, Mr. Speaker, before I introduce this, that I mentioned that from June on last year -- I guess it was June we met with the then Provincial Secretary for Social Development (Mr. Welch) -- that the minister started to dangle the bait in front of these groups. As I indicated the other night, after we left the minister’s office I said to them, “You have just been seduced. The minister will hot give you a cent.” But I said, “You try.” It went on, and there was a whole series of meetings which I put on the record the other night, a whole series of delaying tactics. The whole ball game was all there.", "It’s like the information centres. My colleague mentions letters about them for three years. I understand that information centres have actually been studied by the ministry for 13 years, not three; 13 years ago was the first report on information centres. And now, the crunch comes. There is no policy. As my colleague indicated the other night, he had three identical letters from the minister. The only thing changed was the date, as they updated the letters. The ministry said, “We’re studying it, and we’ll announce a policy shortly.”", "The government doesn’t have a policy. From June to March 15 would be nine or 10 months. It was a merry chase anyway before there was a statement of Ontario government policy in reference to LIP-initiated projects. Well, this is some statement. This, after months of study, after acceptance by the former think-piece, after having them analysed and accredited and approved, we get this statement of government policy from the ministry:", "As you know, for something more than a year the secretariat for social development has been considering the role that the government of Ontario ought to play in financing the project started under the federal government’s LIP grants programme.", "Our discussions have invoked many non-governmental groups, including the Metro work group. Since the decisions we have taken owe much to these discussions [Yes, the decisions we have taken have owed much to these discussions] I think it is appropriate that these decisions be announced, in the first instance, to you people as representatives of that group.", "Well, that is an insult to anyone’s intelligence, because what they are about to announce is nothing. After all of the input and the approval by David Cole and the various government people. Listen to this:", "From the first we have said clearly that the government of Ontario is willing to provide support and assistance to LIP-initiated projects -- within our existing programmes and priorities.", "Well, I listed the other night the amounts that the government of Ontario had really contributed. As I said, $100,000 totally for immigrant services. There was nothing in there for the immigrant needs. Community development; $84,000 for the total province. Information centres; really zero. The government managed to give $18,000 in Metro Toronto, but without any policy. It is just a disaster.", "From “our existing programmes.” Well, the government has done nothing from its existing programmes to meet the need. Really, it hasn’t. Just look at this material concerning the agencies; the government gave $84,000 in total for community workers -- $84,000. That is the salary of eight people for Ontario.", "“But we are not prepared to abandon our normal criteria calling for extensive voluntary involvement ....” What this government wants, in fact, is all voluntary involvement, or they want the federal government to pay the shot, or they want Metro Toronto or the various municipalities or the community organizations to pay the shot. This government’s commitment is zero." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. P. Morningstar (Welland)", "text": [ "It is a good government, and a great minister over there." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Good for whom? The wealthy?", "I go on: “... involvement in some programme areas and for significant local participation in the funding of many projects.” We have the significant contribution. I put those on the record the other night too, to show you that the community fund had already invested heavily -- very, very heavily -- but in fact the only one who had failed to invest any money was the province. They are on the record anyway, Mr. Speaker, I haven’t got them with me.", "“We are not prepared to distort the priorities that we have set for the development and maintenance of social services in Ontario.” That is a lot of gobbledygook, too, because there are no policies.", "Using those criteria and within those priorities I am happy to announce that we have committed $150,000 for grants to help programmes serving senior citizens across Ontario to make the transition to normal financing under the Ontario Elderly Persons’ Centres Act. Clearly these grants will benefit a number of LIP projects. The grant will be made on a one-time-only basis.", "One time only; $150,000 for the province. That is not going to do anything to meet the needs. It just isn’t.", "I go on then to the next one:", "In order to make transitional period easier, we will instruct the senior citizens’ bureau to encourage homes for the aged throughout Ontario ...", "I am also happy to announce that the regulations under Bill 160 have now been approved so that we will be able to provide limited direct provincial government assistance to community daycare services by early this year. We anticipate that some LIP-initiated projects may qualify for the assistance ....", "No one has seen the regulations yet. As I say, that’s 10 months after the legislation was passed; we are still waiting to see the regulations.", "Your group and others that we spoke to have expressed a concern that the multi-service approach to social services is not being actively enough explored and developed in Ontario. To reassure you that this is a matter of major concern to us, we are appointing a committee to study [it].", "Well, yet another committee. How long do these studies go on? We now have another study with respect to multi-service centres.", "Your group also asked us to look at additional financial support for ... “social service arts.” Many programmes of this nature were financed, in whole or in part, through LIP grants. We would recommend that these projects make application to the Province of Ontario Council for the Arts. [Isn’t that a magnificent suggestion?] This agency is able to support a limited number of high quality efforts in the area." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. F. Laughren (Nickel Belt)", "text": [ "That’s Tory charity." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Yes, and here from my friend -- no, I haven’t got to the point of my friend, the hon. member for Wentworth (Mr. Deans). To continue:", "You asked, too, that we consider community assistance over and above existing programmes. Both these areas are already marked, particularly in Metro Toronto, by a large degree of duplication ....", "Well, we know what that means." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "No." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Well, if there is duplication, they don’t fund anything." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "Oh, I see." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "You see -- and that’s information centres. After three years, in a recent letter to our colleague, the member for Wentworth, the Minister of Community and Social Services is telling us it’s again being studied. Here, in fact, is what the minister has to say:", "Both these areas are already marked, particularly in Metro Toronto, by a large degree of duplication of service." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "It is almost deliberately misleading." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "It’s called dissembling: dissembling, yes.", "We agree that such services might be worthwhile, particularly in rural Ontario, and we agree that information centres that are accessible and objective already play an important role in the provision of services in the province and, indeed, the provincial government is already involved in the financing of such services.", "It was $18,000 last year; 18,000 bucks. You know, the whole charade for 11 months; it is absolutely nauseating.", "Your group has asked us for a number of things. We are taking specific action to help the projects you have started to aid senior citizens [It is $150,000 for the whole province] to meet the requirements of our existing programmes. Our new legislation for day care may benefit ... We will continue on a more formal basis to examine the potential for multi-service delivery ... For your “social service arts” [your community information centres and your immigration services]. We can only recommend that you continue to examine the possibility of working through programmes that already exist in Ontario.", "They have been trying for three years -- and there is nothing there to work through." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "Well, cabinet is listening today." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "She says:", "I would like to add one personal word. I worked many years as a volunteer in the development of social services in my own community.", "And that’s the point I drew the other night. Her information centre is operating on a LIP grant. Isn’t that interesting? “I know some of the sacrifice you people have made” -- $85 a week for three years, no holiday pay, no increases, no fringe benefits, no medical protection. Some sacrifice!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. Gisborn (Hamilton East)", "text": [ "Would the member say she is an unprogressive Tory?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gisborn", "text": [ "The hon. lady is not a progressive Tory." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "She’s no red Tory." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "And finally:", "We have looked carefully at your proposals. We have considered carefully the decisions we have made and I hope that -- to some extent at least -- they meet with your approval.", "Well, can you imagine -- can you imagine that junk meeting anyone’s approval?" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Can you imagine --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "It meets the approval of the anti-labour member for Timiskaming (Mr. Havrot)." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "-- the unmitigated gall of a minister of the Crown to come before a group, after that ministry had said in fact all of these programmes were worthwhile, after months of research by the ministry staff recommending that they be funded, the think-piece says: “No, we will put $150,000 in.”", "Well, the Metro work group has just recently put out a statement, they make a comparison --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "Where do they get the money for all of these things they keep mailing out?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "LIP." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "LIP mailed that out?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "I don’t think they mailed this, not to me anyway; they delivered it personally. Well, the member might want to run a red herring into it to cover up his own embarrassment, but please don’t interfere with me." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "I am not running a red herring over it at all, I just wonder about the money problems. If they’re broke, how come the big mailout?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Most of it is being funded by the UFO -- the who? Well, that would be more than the Tory bagmen would give." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "Well, we are subsidizing it, too." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "The member might take some of the land speculation profits of the member for Fort William (Mr. Jessiman) and fund a few LIP projects." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "If I could sell one acre of land and make $90,000 profit, I could assist a group, I could fund the organization." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Gilbertson (Algoma)", "text": [ "The member wouldn’t want anybody to have an acre of land. Give us something constructive now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "We just want to tax the land speculators. Nothing wrong with that. It’s a good social programme, progressive taxation. The member is not against that surely.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Community funding? I put all the lists on the record the other night when the member stormed out because it wasn’t his turn to speak. I put them in the Hansard and if the member wants to go back --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "I wasn’t here the other night, Mr. Speaker, I had engagements elsewhere. Now let’s keep the record straight. I am not going to be insulted in here by some clown." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)", "text": [ "Tell the truth now; the member got up and stomped out because he couldn’t get the floor." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "He is wasting the time of the House." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "That’s not true and the member knows it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "The figures were put on the record the other night, if the member wants to check them out, the community funding. The federal government and Metro Toronto have put in large amounts of money. The only one who hasn’t put any money in anything is the member’s own government.", "Well, let’s see the response of the Metro work group to this." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "We understand the member’s embarrassment." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "I am not embarrassed." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "Well he should be." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "We don’t understand why he is not." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "If he is not embarrassed I can’t understand why he is not.", "Well on the first position, the minister’s statement of March 15 says:", "As you know, for some time, more than a year, the secretariat for social development has been considering the role.", "The response of the group:", "The Metro work group has been discussing the problems of responsibility in funding of social services. Mrs. Birch persists in discussing LIP. The real issue is the crisis in Metro Toronto of new services, but mostly of the entire community and social service field.", "In other words we have been digressing, as I said much earlier. The attack started on the LIP funding so that in fact the province would be in a position to say no. But many of the organizations involved in the Metro work group never received LIP grants, never. There is a whole wide range: The Toronto Social Planning Council, the YMCA, the YWCA; they are all pushing these emerging services if they meet the need. But the think-piece from over there, as she tried to prepare us for the shock of saying no, kept attacking LIP because she was trying to soften up the public to accept the inevitable, that the Ontario government wasn’t going to fund emerging services.", "The second point from the minister’s statement:", "From the first we have said clearly that the government of Ontario is willing to pro- vide support and assistance to LIP-initiated programmes.", "And their response:", "It is the continued inadequacy of provincial policies in programme funding which has created the present crisis. Therefore an offer to fund emerging services from within existing programmes and policies is tantamount to refusing any support. For example, there is only $84,000 for community development programmes in the whole of Ontario and not even a policy for information centres (after three years of study).", "The minister’s whole statement was a lot oi rubbish.", "The third point that the work group made rebutting the minister’s statement --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "Don’t buy that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "“We are not asking you to distort your government’s priorities.’" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "The minister mustn’t buy that. I wouldn’t buy anything from the member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "“We are merely asking you to finance them.”", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Their response goes on:", "An unreleased report of the provincial Ministry of Community and Social Services, compiled in June, 1973, indicated that most emerging services in Metro rank very high relative to programme priorities of various ministry departments.", "I say that to my friend from --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. H. C. Parrott (Oxford)", "text": [ "Sudbury East?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "No. I wanted the other member to get that." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Oxford." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Oxford. I wanted him to get that because a ministerial report said this. He will file that away, will he?", "We endorse the two criteria of volunteerism and local participation [And this has been there. The only commitment we haven’t got is anything from the Tory government]. We meet both of them consistently. However, where local funding is unavailable, often in the area of greatest need, the province must accept its just financial responsibility.", "And it hasn’t accepted any.", "In the minister’s statement she makes that great announcement of $150,000. Here’s their response to that:", "The total operational funding available under the Elderly Persons’ Centres Act in 1973-1974 was $900,000. This level of funding was totally inadequate for existing groups eligible for funding. To activate more groups to compete for this limited funding is an exercise in futility.", "The regulations of the Act are themselves unduly restrictive. They prevent the implementation of the full intent of the Act.", "We go on as the minister talks about transitional periods:", "Tying senior citizens to institutionalized services run from homes for the aged when they are able to function in the community is not an alternative.", "The minister has heard me say this for two years, at least. We have got to assist but the government is not assisting. The minister goes on to say:" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. A. Carruthers (Durham)", "text": [ "Was that a message from Garcia or was that an inter-departmental communication?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "The recent communique --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Carruthers", "text": [ "Interdepartmental?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "We’re giving him some ammunition." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "No, I won’t comment because he’s not here. I wouldn’t do it without his attendance." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "That would be any labour member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "That’s what I was thinking about but I wouldn’t do it The minister said, “I’m also happy to announce that the regulations under Bill 160 have now been approved.” The group responded:", "Limited financing of Bill 160 is not a responsible answer to untold daycare needs of working people in Metro Toronto. The province obviously has no sense of urgency for the daycare needs of children." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "They have no sense." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "They go on: “Bill 160 was passed almost 10 months ago and as yet no child nor working mother has benefited.” It was a good Act 10 months ago. The only trouble is that it is not working yet." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "Tory commitments." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "As I said when the minister brought that bill in, Mr. Speaker, and during his estimates, if we only had an election every year we’d get all kinds of daycare centres and so on because that’s the year we fund. I suspect that’s why we’re putting it off and we can bring it in in time for next year and make full implementation of the bill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "It is like the freight rate reductions in northern Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Yes, on the eve of an election." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "The ONR has done a lot for them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "What would the member do if he was in?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Does the member want me to say we would do what the Tories are doing? What they’re doing is nothing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "The member will never get the chance." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Carruthers", "text": [ "The member for Sudbury East can’t say that. It’s the most progressive government this province ever had." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, point 7: The multi-service approach began in 1967. A full study was made on 10 such projects in 1969." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Carruthers", "text": [ "Is this a reading programme?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "The hon. member might learn something if he listens long enough, because he won’t do any research on his own." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Parrott", "text": [ "The hon. member for Sudbury East doesn’t have all that long, though." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Carruthers", "text": [ "This is carrying it too far. When the hon. member reads, I cannot understand him." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, Tory after Tory reads his speech in its entirety in this House and no one over here says a word. No one says a word as they read their entire speeches." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "The NDP members are the biggest hecklers in here." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Carruthers", "text": [ "The hon. member is not reading his own speech." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "I’m just reading to make sure that these notes that were prepared are precise." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "Yes, and to cut down on time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "To get back to the point:", "The multi-service approach began in 1967. A full study was made on 10 such projects in 1969. The province is presently assisting one such project in York.", "Sometimes studies are a good idea -- when you honestly do need more facts.", "What have we got here on multi-service centres in the announcement by the hon. minister? He is going to study it again. He is going to have a look at it. We will set up another committee. Well, we have had studies from 1967 to the present, and we are going to have an interdepartmental committee set up and study it again. What are they going to study? More procrastination? How they can avoid it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle", "text": [ "Is the hon. member not aware of the funding on the one in North York?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Right, since 1967. My God, if the rest of the province has to wait that long, we’ll never see it. We won’t live so long." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "The minister won’t be in government so long." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Well, Mr. Speaker, the eighth point: The minister suggested the group go to POCA to get funding for providing programmes in the senior citizens’ homes and so on. Their response:", "POCA has already indicated that it is severely underfinanced. Ontario shows little concern in making cultural arts accessible to all people, not just the affluent minority.”", "That is what I have been saying. We provide all kinds of funding for the affluent minority to enjoy culture, but we don’t provide funding so that the ordinary people can enjoy culture. What is it, is it a sick system we have got over there? Maybe the Speaker could tell me.", "As for the immigration and information centres, there is supposed to be overduplication; that’s what the minister said -- there were too many and there was duplication.", "Where is the evidence [and this is the question they pose to the minister] to substantiate the claims of duplication?", "The United Community Fund has sent out assessment teams of volunteers and professionals, as did the federal Secretary of State, who did not find any duplication.", "I hope the minister heard that. The federal Secretary of State did not find any duplication in immigration services, and neither did the United Community Fund. How does the think-tank tell us then that there is duplication? Would the minister tell us some day where there is duplication, instead of making carte blanche statements with no substance?", "In fact, both the United Community Fund and the Secretary of State are partially financing many of these services.", "If “the provincial government is already involved in the financing of such services,” from where is the funding coming? There are no provincial policies nor budgets to finance information centres or immigration services [none].", "We know that over half of the community development budget was raised last year to fund a few information centres. Such cynicism seriously undermines the province’s credibility [in the whole field].", "Getting down to the last four points, Mr. Speaker, part of the minister’s statement said, in relation to senior citizens’ groups -- and I quote: “Your group has asked us for a number of things. We are taking specific action to help the projects.” Their response to that particular paragraph of the minister’s statement is:", "We also asked you a number of other things. In particular, we asked you to begin using the Canada Assistance Plan -- as do Alberta and BC.", "This government only uses the Canada Assistance Plan when it can extract a fair largess without really putting comparable funding in.", "The sudden transition of the mentally retarded from the Ministry of Health to the Ministry of Community and Social Services -- questions were put in debate last week, questioning the sincerity of that move. By doing that they were able to get an additional $35 million from Ottawa. If that hadn’t been forthcoming there are many people in the community who believe that the treatment for the mentally retarded would have stayed in the Ministry of Health. It wasn’t the consideration of the needs of people at all, it was the consideration of picking up $35 million more from Ottawa -- that is what was really behind it all.", "The minister says. “I would like to add one personal word; I worked many years as a volunteer in the development of services in my own community.” And their response: “As a former volunteer and community worker, we would expect you to be assisting us in our proposals and ending our sacrifice.”", "I suspect her financial sacrifices weren’t too great. In my experience I’ve seen people working in the community; these professional do-gooders that salve their conscience by going out and doing a little canvassing one night a year for the cancer or for the blind -- that’s their contribution to society. It salves their conscience." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "Better than nothing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Mattel", "text": [ "Yes, these do-gooders, we would be better off without them -- some of them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "The member doesn’t know how much good the do-gooders do." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Oh yes, right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "Why doesn’t the member for Sudbury East try it sometime? It is not as easy as he says." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "My friend -- no, I can’t be bothered talking to him." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "The member for Algoma is in enough trouble; they’ve moved him from the other side of the row." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "Yes, but I’m in the front bench." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "The member for Algoma is back where he started." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "I know, but I’m in the front row -- I started at the back." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "Don’t forget, they are looking in the Algoma riding to find another candidate." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Don’t forget that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "They called to see if we could provide someone." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "We said: “No, leave him where he is.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Here is the final statement I want to quote, Mr. Speaker:", "The response of the Ontario government does not meet with our approval, nor does it meet with the approval of the wider community concerned with human needs in our city. Clearly, the area of provincial policy and unmet community needs must be reviewed by Premier Davis.", "Interestingly enough, they’ve been trying to get a meeting with the Premier (Mr. Davis) since March 15 or 16 -- almost the day after they were told “no way.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. H. Jessiman (Fort William)", "text": [ "Stand in line." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. M. Havrot (Timiskaming)", "text": [ "Join the club." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "They tell me that even the Conservative backbenchers have difficulty in getting to see the Premier, so we shouldn’t feel too badly. “Billy the Kid” --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Carruthers", "text": [ "The member for Sudbury East is way back at the end of the line." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "He is not very receptive, and there is a line-up of Tory backbenchers." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "Why doesn’t the member show some respect toward the Premier instead of calling him “Billy the Kid.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "What should I do, pay homage to him?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "The member is supposed to honour those in authority." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Am I?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "And not be so ridiculous." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "I’ve always had a great deal of faith in law and order men. I look at Spiro Agnew and Richard Nixon today -- two of the greatest law and order men in the last decade," ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "Did the member ever look at himself? Did he ever look at himself?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Their law and order performance -- those great law and order men." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "They moved crime from the streets into the White House," ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "They’ve robbed everybody blind, Spiro is going to be disbarred, but he was a great law and order man -- don’t give me that nonsense.", "If you see a social need you move in to help it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. C. E. Smith (Simcoe East)", "text": [ "Come on, the member for Sudbury East should give us the message." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "This group has been waiting, Mr. Speaker, almost two full weeks to meet with the Premier -- two full weeks. I checked again today with my friend, the former Attorney General, Arthur Wishart, to see if that date had been finalized. It still isn’t finalized.", "I checked with Arthur yesterday to see about it. The group has phoned almost daily to get a meeting.", "Unless we get serious, Mr. Speaker, and start to fund the groups, they in fact are going to go down the drain. And maybe the member for Durham would like to read these services that are being offered and he wouldn’t sit there with such cynicism." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Carruthers", "text": [ "I am in one myself; I am dealing with one right now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Yes, well I am dealing on behalf of 160 of these groups right now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Carruthers", "text": [ "I am getting results, too. I am getting results." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Yes, so am I, without a policy. That’s called the all-embracing arm of the Tory. Well put another patch on the old tube. We don’t resolve the total need, we just keep patching it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Carruthers", "text": [ "The member doesn’t go after things the right way." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, if these groups don’t meet with the Premier and if the Premier doesn’t see to it that adequate funding is immediately established, the vast majority of these groups will disappear -- and that’s what the government wants, I am convinced -- and the community of Metro Toronto and the area outside of Metro Toronto, the people who need services, will not have those services. I suggest to the government that this is, first and foremost, directly a provincial responsibility, social needs, and it simply cannot ignore it any longer. Thank you, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Oxford." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. H. C. Parrott (Oxford)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I don’t know whether it is the fate of the House to be subjected to discussions from those sitting so close together, but let me tell you, though we may sit together, there is a great gulf between us." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "I would hope so, I would hope so.", "Interjections by hon, members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Parrott", "text": [ "Let me assure you, too, that there is going to be a great gulf in the length of our discussions. Before I comment on that further, I hope that you will convey to the member for Waterloo South (Mr. Renter), who is indeed the Speaker of this House, the best wishes of not only the member for Oxford but indeed all of the people that I represent. As a neighbouring municipality, I think we perhaps have had the privilege of knowing the hon. Speaker perhaps better than some other people of this province, and we have always felt it a great privilege to count on his friendship." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "That’s you, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Parrott", "text": [ "As I see it, one of the rather strange things that occur in this House is that the remarks that I hear in the chamber and the remarks that I hear outside the chamber about the good humour, about the great respect and about the fine character of the Speaker are consistent. That is a very rare thing to see happen. Usually what is said in the House doesn’t necessarily reflect the same kind of comments that we hear in the corridors. But in this instance I am sure that all of us say with a great deal of sincerity how much we respect you, Mr. Speaker.", "There is another area that perhaps is very seldom mentioned, and I would like to dwell on for just a minute, and that is, indeed, the attendants to the Speaker. I think that we are served here in the House by the pages and the other attendants with a great deal of care and consideration and I think we see in these young people probably the finest examples of the youth of Ontario. I, for one, would like to say thanks to them. Just last week I was in my riding and a page who had served in this House just last term was at a meeting and put on a show. He did ventriloquism, some magic, and spoke as well. He did a tremendous job. It is a great experience. I know from those who have served here in this House what a great stimulus to their lives the six-weeks’ service in this House has been, and I hope that all of those who are currently serving and those who have served before will continue and that some day they, too, may serve in this chamber or the chamber in Ottawa. But whether they do that or not I am sure they will, indeed, serve in their communities.", "A little comment on the previous speaker. They tell me that if one is going to speak for an hour you need about 30 seconds’ preparation. If it’s for five minutes you need about an hour’s preparation. I don’t know what a three-hour speech might take, but on that basis I suspect 30 seconds’ preparation and three hours delivery is perhaps a ratio. There were comments from the member for Sudbury East that illustrate, as I suggested at the beginning, that there is a great difference between his position and mine, and there is one area that, believe it or not, I would like to follow up on. There is some agreement.", "I would like to comment a little bit in these next few minutes on how we, as members, should service our ridings.", "Quite frankly, this is not a personal complaint. I knew full well the terms of the contract when I was elected. The terms weren’t quite as good as I had been experiencing prior to my election." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Gaunt (Huron-Bruce)", "text": [ "I am sure of that!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Parrott", "text": [ "But I didn’t consider that any great problem. In fact, I thought it was the greatest thrill of my life to have been so honoured. And I still think that way." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gaunt", "text": [ "What a price to pay for a thrill!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Parrott", "text": [ "Well, it may be. Thank you, that’s exactly the point I’m coming to. That was a very apt line, sir." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "You can always count on the member for Huron-Bruce for assistance." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Parrott", "text": [ "Before I get into that particular point, I feel that the recommendations of the commission on the Legislature headed by Dalton Camp have given to us many things of which I am personally appreciative.", "I think the difference in salary was acceptable. I certainly think the ability to travel in our ridings now is most acceptable and was most necessary. Perhaps all of us have not made any great changes in our methods of going about our ridings. Perhaps most, if not all, of the members considered that a part of the duty, but it seems logical and reasonable that we should be recompensed for that expense. I think for those of us who are from out of town to be recompensed for our accommodation while here is just a logical business approach.", "Unfortunately that’s where the business approach stopped as far as I was concerned. It fell very far short when we start to think in terms of how we should service our ridings. The Camp commission, if I can call it that, did recognize a difference in ridings. And I think it should have done so when it got into the area of how we as members could properly look after those people that we try to serve. I guess the reason it hasn’t is that neither that commission nor indeed ourselves have come to the problem of what our basic role is in this assembly and in this province.", "I’ve asked myself, and I’m sure many of the members have, am I an ombudsman or am I a legislator? Quite frankly, I would like to think of myself as both. But if indeed I am an ombudsman, it seems to me that I am grossly understaffed and slightly underpaid. If I am a legislator, I think I am perhaps overpaid and have sufficient staff. But we must answer that basic question in my mind, what is our basic role in society?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "How did the member come to that conclusion?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. T. P. Reid (Rainy River)", "text": [ "Which does he consider the most important?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Surely his primary function is as a legislator." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Parrott", "text": [ "I agree that my primary function is a legislator." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Well, why would the member say that he is overpaid and understaffed?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Parrott", "text": [ "As an ombudsman." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "No. He said that he is overpaid and sufficiently staffed as a legislator." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Parrott", "text": [ "That’s right. If I had no constituency work to do whatsoever, I honestly believe that I could, with the staff that our caucus research supplies, do a reasonably adequate job as a legislator, provided I was not too encumbered with all of the other details that I am now encumbered with within my riding and within this House. I’m talking about the purism of a legislator with no ombudsman role to play.", "Let me tell you, Mr. Speaker, that I think I should be both and for these reasons. First of all, I would like to keep in touch with reality in both roles. I would use the example, perhaps in my professional life, of someone teaching in a medical or dental school who has not had the great advantage of serving part of his time at least in private practice. I think he loses that sense of reality, of urgency, and of relevance to what he is trying to say to his students. If I had my way, I would like to see in many areas that those in the academic world would have to spend at least a portion of their week within the confines of the work-a-day world.", "Secondly, I don’t think the role of the ombudsman is the job of a civil servant. I would like to see him an elected official. Therefore, again I think that is another argument that I should be both an ombudsman and a legislator. I think, in addition, if we were only legislators we would perhaps fail to see to the same degree the needs of our community. If we serve in the dual role, I think legislation could normally be expected to follow, in that we were attempting to serve the needs of our community. As a legislator I would I expect that I could, with some research help, discuss what is necessary for the future, but as an ombudsman I would see very clearly what is necessary today. Again, I submit those as reasons why I think we should be both.", "Of recent date, as members well know, the federal government has seen fit, indeed, to provide its members with riding offices. Now just because the federal government has seen fit to do it doesn’t necessarily make it right in my mind for a lot of reasons. I think the fact it has done it has put us, as members of this assembly, in an extremely untenable position. Whether we like it or not, we are going to be in a direct comparative position with our federal counterparts." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Quebec has had it for three years." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Parrott", "text": [ "That may be but in Ontario it is going to be here for us. When one considers that perhaps the provincial member deals far more directly with the problems of people than do the members of the federal House --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Bullbrook (Sarnia)", "text": [ "The member doesn’t have to say perhaps." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Parrott", "text": [ "All right, I will amend that with the member’s approval. Indeed, we do deal with the problems of people far more directly than do our federal friends and that is the great joy of being a member of this House. We are dealing with people and I would not have it otherwise.", "I am very mindful of this particular problem right now because, as the members of this chamber well know, I have had the great misfortune to lose my federal friend and member of long-standing for Oxford, the great Wally Nesbitt." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "He was a great fellow." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Parrott", "text": [ "It has given me a new perspective on what the two roles might be.", "I know there are a lot of problems with unemployment insurance, but apart from that one the real people problems of this province are related to the activities of this chamber. There is no way that a member, under the present conditions, can even remotely cope with the problem:", "I would like to say a word or two about my great friend, Mr. Nesbitt, the member for Oxford for some 20 years. When one looks at the election results of his various terms -- there were seven, eight or nine of them in total; one of the safest seats, I guess, in the Dominion of Canada -- one would have to ask himself why? The reason was very obvious. He served his people well. That record is without question and they knew it on the day of election. That is the way it should be, in my mind, and I think we all lost a great servant of the people when Mr. Nesbitt passed away last Christmas.", "If it had worked well for him -- not in the process of being re-elected; if that is the point I have made, I’m sorry, it has been made badly -- it was not that Mr. Nesbitt could be re-elected but, indeed, we could recognize that he was serving the people. One would only need to walk the streets of our communities to know just how deeply he was missed and how greatly he was needed, which is more to the point and right on. He was needed because without a man of his calibre and of his standing there are many injustices in this society which will not be remedied.", "It seems to me that we must play this dual role. If that were the case, I felt I had, perhaps, to try an experiment and if I could take a few minutes of the time of this House, I will tell members what we have tried in Oxford. We have simply put the secretary who was normally associated with my office here in Queen’s Park, in the riding on a full-time basis. Let me assure members that experiment is working, if we can measure it by the number of calls she is receiving. I feel sorry for her. Quite frequently, I can’t get the line to get home. She is on that telephone almost incessantly, but there are still some unanswered problems.", "What am I able to do here in Queen’s Park? Well, sometimes I am able to scrounge a few typed letters, and I go to the coffee machine and make my own coffee. Indeed, I lick my own envelopes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Oh, heavens, no." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Parrott", "text": [ "Exactly, “Oh, heavens, no.” It’s a crime --" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Gee, that’s tough." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Parrott", "text": [ "-- that a member who is attempting to serve the people of his area is reduced to an occupation -- and I hope that the members won’t interject here and suggest that I am making derogatory remarks about that type of occupation, not at all; but I think --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "The hon. member has better things to do with his time than lick envelopes; that’s what he is saying." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Parrott", "text": [ "Precisely, and I appreciate that comment from the member for Sarnia. He knows what I am saying and I feel that he is agreeing with the comment, at least in part." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "I’d like the hon. member to recognize the legislative responsibility of the opposition members. Much more onerous tasks are superimposed upon the opposition member’s responsibility." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Parrott", "text": [ "I am not suggesting that our roles are identical. I recognize that they are different. I am going to come to that in just one minute, but before I do, I am wondering if the people of this province fully recognize that if one does try an experiment, such as the one I am presently attempting in Oxford, someone still has to pay the rent on that office. Someone has to pay for the phone; indeed, if a person wants to call into that office, the citizen has to pay for the long-distance call. That’s not fair. I think that the people of this province should be able to contact their members at will on a direct basis, without cost to themselves. I enjoy that contact with the people of my riding, and I am sure the other members of this House do.", "There’s another alternative that we could take: We could consider the possibility of staffing our offices with volunteers. There are many jobs within a member’s office that might be done by volunteers, but I have attempted that experiment and it has failed. I think there is a necessity to have a continuity of secretarial help -- help that a member can count on, that will be there and that will do as he asks and will continue to do so. Volunteer help might be fine for an election, but it doesn’t help the member to serve the riding he represents.", "In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask Mr. Camp and those members associated with him on the commission on the Legislature to look again at their recommendations. As I understand it, we still have a report to receive and I think it is not too late. To be a little more specific, I would like to see something similar to what our federal confrères have.", "I am not asking for any great change here in the provincial assembly but, following up on the point made by the member for Sarnia, I would say that we can’t treat each riding the same. I think it’s a mistake to try to do so. Some of us are within commuting distance of our ridings. Some of us have to leave on Monday morning and not see our ridings again. Others are home every evening. So we have got to treat our ridings differently -- the report said so -- but there are still some areas where they haven’t recognized the great differences that we are faced with as members.", "I am not asking that the commission should not hold us accountable. I am saying, however, that the members could perhaps present themselves to the Speaker’s office with the proposals that they felt were needed to serve his area; and having done so, within certain broad general limits such as our travel allowance, that staffing problem would be solved.", "I think that to do less means we cannot properly serve in our role and, secondly, it will keep a lot of people who are more than capable of doing so from serving in this chamber when they see the workload. Not that I think any of us is complaining particularly about that workload; as I said before, we knew it, we asked for it, and many of us are enjoying it. But I think that many of us are still concerned that we are not able to provide the type of service to the people of our ridings that we would like to do, and I hope that those members of the commission on the Legislature may well reconsider their position and give us some individual determination within our ridings, let us be accountable, but let us be able to do a job for the people of Ontario. Thank you, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Perth." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. H. Edighoffer (Perth)", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am very happy once again to take part in this Throne debate. I guess the usual custom is to, first of all, offer congratulations to the new ministers and to the new parliamentary assistants. As I look around the chamber I see one parliamentary assistant here and I just hope that he will pass those congratulations along to the rest.", "I also, Mr. Speaker, would like to say that I am pleased to see you back in your position, hale and hearty and presiding over this House with your usual good wit and firm hand --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. Sargent (Grey-Bruce)", "text": [ "The member had better qualify that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Edighoffer", "text": [ "-- and I hope you continue to enjoy your duties. I might also say that I am very glad to see that the acting Speaker is looking well today.", "In reply to the Throne Speech, Mr. Speaker, I looked it over carefully once, twice, even a third time, and it is really most difficult to explain to anyone really what is contained in those historic 15 pages. The newspapers carried many stories with lots of predictions of what might be contained therein, and it again served the usual purpose for the government, I presume.", "It is interesting that after the Throne Speech was read the editorials in many of the papers the next day tried to outline some of the programmes. But the headlines really told the story. One stated, “A Far from Dynamic Programme.” Another one said, “Many Good Proposals in Bland Throne Speech.” Another one said, “Throne Speech General But Not Specific.” And just to be more specific, one editorial stated that when Vincent Massey was Governor General of Canada he noted that his public utterances were confined to “Governor Generalities.”", "That same editorial, Mr. Speaker, went on to say:", "Many of the proposals are laudable, such as the increase in aid for elderly and disabled persons and for regions such as the northern part of the province which feel that they have been neglected. However, it will be necessary to wait until more details are given to learn the full extent of the proposals. Efforts will be made to make housing more readily available, particularly for those with low incomes, although again the specific details are withheld.", "In response to the concern over the growing shortage of good land for agricultural purposes, proposals are advanced to help ensure that land acquired for development will be kept in agricultural production until the development occurs.", "Interesting suggestions for improving safety on the highways include compulsory use of seatbelts and new measures against drunken drivers. Presumably a drunk driver with an unfastened seat belt will be in double jeopardy. All in all, it is a programme which should keep the Legislature busy for some months and may well prepare the ground for a new provincial election campaign.", "Then it finished off by saying: “Like the federal Throne Speech before it, the provincial one didn’t say very much.”", "It is interesting, Mr. Speaker, that just prior to the Throne Speech here in the Legislature one of our colleagues was in the city of Stratford talking to a group of students and a service club. Naturally the people in the audience, because of their active interest, wanted some up to date information on the operations of government and they questioned the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Revenue about what might be in the Throne Speech. According to the newspaper report the headline said: “MPP Drops Some Hints.” But as I looked over the column, he was not too accurate and did not cover too many problems mentioned in the Throne Speech. The article did mention that he was questioned about finances for political campaign and he did say that he thought there would be legislation calling for disclosure of contributions. He also said:", "I would like to cut down on election spending as much as you would, but we have to spend what we think we must to get elected. We don’t like to take chances.", "And for your --" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "The member for London North (Mr. Walker), was it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Edighoffer", "text": [ "I’m sorry he’s not here, but I did send out a questionnaire last fall, and on that questionnaire I asked: “Should there be limits on spending by candidates in election campaigns?” The answers that came back were 92.3 per cent yes, and 5.8 per cent no. So it really shows that the government is not fully aware of what the grass-roots opinion really is." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)", "text": [ "Once more." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Edighoffer", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, there is one sentence in the Throne Speech which really intrigued me and it is this: “You will be asked to approve legislation which will require an environmental assessment of major new development projects.”", "I like that sentence very much, because after what has been taking place in our area with Ontario Hydro I’m just sorry that this wasn’t in the Throne Speech last year.", "My colleague, the member for Huron-Bruce, has spoken very recently and placed in the record of this House his concern and the concern of the people in the area, for the manner in which Ontario Hydro has decided to acquire transmission line rights of way over western Ontario, and particularly over class 1 and 2 farmland. I really feel it’s my duty to add my few words to express the objection of many residents of Wallace township who want to continue farming without huge towers on their property.", "I have much faith in the intellect and the reasonableness of farmers; they are in business and want to produce food for us." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. M. Turner (Peterborough)", "text": [ "That’s pretty weak." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Edighoffer", "text": [ "If Ontario Hydro could show that this power is necessary and that there is no other feasible way to get it to the market, I know they would not deprive other people of this source of power.", "Last year, Ontario Hydro exported 5.36 billion kw hours to the US at a profit of $31.7 million. It’s expected that this will increase in 1974. These farmers do not see why all this power export is necessary, particularly if it reduces agricultural production.", "In this regard, the editor of the Listowel Banner recently commented as follows -- and I think this is important to put on the record. I quote from the editorial dated Feb. 28, 1974:", "Hydro might be absolutely right when it states that the amount of land cost to production because of transmission lines is minimal, but a farmer faced with losing a 600-ft wide strip from a 100- or 200-acre farm can hardly be expected to welcome the prospect.", "While it might be hard for Hydro engineers and lawyers to understand, most farmers have an attachment to their land bordering on human relationship. Their land, especially if it is a family farm, represents a lot more than soil, trees, crops, or even dollars and cents. It is the result of years of effort, planning, sacrifice, toil and sweat, and to be forced to sign away a foot, let alone a wide strip of such land to make way for monstrous structures of cement and steel is a bitter pill.", "It is not that farmers do not realize the value of hydro. They do. Indeed many of them are among Hydro’s best customers. On a day-to-day, man-to-man basis, no one has more respect for the Hydro lineman than does the farmer. But as far as the farmer is concerned, the men at the top of Ontario Hydro are something quite different. They are the people who double-talked their fathers years ago and who are now forcing their neighbours to face land expropriation. Given such a situation, plus the fact that its own maps are not absolutely according to Hoyle, Hydro can hardly be surprised to find good, responsible farmers lining up on the other side of the fence. If Hydro has changed its method as it claims, it is going to take more than words to convince the fanner.", "So ends the quote.", "Mr. Speaker, this subject is very prominent in the minds of many people in the north part of my riding and in many parts of ridings to the east and to the west. Recently there was a letter in many of the newspapers in Ontario written by a member of a veterinary clinic who, I think, is very much aware of what our land in our area is used for, and how important it is for the production of food.", "Just in case the Minister of Energy (Mr. McKeough) or the Premier or members of Ontario Hydro have missed this, I feel it should go on the record because it shows what will take place if this Hydro line goes as Ontario Hydro wants it to. It states:", "As individuals who live in and serve the portion of Perth county being affected by the proposed Ontario Hydro corridor from Bradley junction to the Georgetown-Guelph area, we would like to express our grave concern. We serve the farming community at Wallace township as well as adjacent portions of Wellington and Huron counties. In this area we find a high percentage of farms stocked to capacity with, predominantly, cattle and hogs. In fact, they rely on a large volume of their grain needs to come from other areas. Fanners in this area, with 100 acres of land, would lose 13.6 acres, with the exception of approximately six who would lose 60 of the 100 acres." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. Haggerty (Welland South)", "text": [ "It’s also bean country, too." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Edighoffer", "text": [ "To continue:", "This would constitute a loss of 13.6 per cent of their resources to provide adequate feed for their livestock. We are certain that a large portion of farmers would have to reduce the number of livestock kept on these farms.", "Perth, Huron and Wellington counties are among the most productive agricultural counties in Ontario. A: Perth county’s total milk production annually is second only to Oxford county in Ontario; B: In 1973 Perth county shipped 78,263 head of cattle, which was more than any other except Waterloo. Perth county shipped 331,049 hogs in 1972 and was second to none. The preferred corridor through Wallace township by Ontario Hydro will require 1,200 acres. In the total length of this one corridor crossing Bruce, Huron, Perth and Wellington counties over 9,000 acres will be required.", "Ontario Hydro suggests that if all facets of construction proceed perfectly a minimum of 4½ years per tower line would be required, a total of 4½ years minimum for the construction of the three lines. Therefore, upwards of 9,000 acres, a good portion of which is No. 1 and No. 2 grade agricultural land, will be out of production for at least five crop years. Besides removal of this large acreage temporarily, over 40 acres of prime No. 1 and over 100 acres of No. 2 land would permanently be removed from production by tower line bases.", "With consumer food prices climbing at an alarming rate, we cannot justify the removal of this type of land from production. It isn’t that we are self-sufficient. During the dairy year commencing April 1, 1973 to March 31, 1974, we will import approximately 47 million pounds of butter as well as a large amount of cheese. It is commonly accepted that American beef is continuously flowing into Canada.", "This letter continues on and compares production and shows how it has increased in the last three and four years regarding milk and beef. The final sentence in this letter is most important. It says:", "We feel that the agricultural contributions of Perth county and its neighbours are important and hereby request an in-depth objective look at the long-range effects of such a corridor.", "This letter was submitted to many newspapers by the Listowel veterinary clinic.", "Mr. Speaker, I feel Ontario Hydro should have its policy in black and white well ahead of construction. Because of past experience many land owners feel that they are dealing with a giant steam-roller. Many editorials have been written in this regard. Many people have discussed this. They feel that the people who are working for Hydro out in the area are responsible people, but they are only working on orders from head office here in Toronto and feel that they cannot count on the decisions that are made out there.", "Ontario Hydro has spent thousands and maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars advertising how to live better electrically. As people have pointed out on many occasions, maybe we have been brainwashed and maybe we expect too much of Hydro. But now they are reversing their stand. I just read in one of the papers the other day that Ontario Hydro, along with the Ministry of Industry and Tourism, has planned 11 seminars across Ontario. They are alerting companies on how to cut out electricity costs. That article stated they were sending out 7,000 letters to companies across the province telling them about these seminars and how to cut out these electrical costs. It says:", "The courses will be designed to convince businessmen that savings of up to 30 per cent are not uncommon with relatively minor investment and new equipment. [Then the article goes on to say] The ministry [and I presume that is the Ministry of Industry and Tourism] will introduce new products aimed at cutting heating costs. One is a thermostat that automatically turns back when plants are empty at night. Another is an infra-red heater that is electrically economical.", "However, they will have four lectures and are holding 11 planning seminars. I think the cost will be $5 for the members of industry to be present. It states in the paper the registration will naturally include lunch, because this government loves lunches, and audio-vision displays." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. A. J. Roy (Ottawa East)", "text": [ "Nobody is going to pay $5 to listen to the Minister of Industry and Tourism. They are wasting their money if they do." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Wining and dining them." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. C. Bennett (Minister of Industry and Tourism)", "text": [ "In that area, yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "The minister should send a tape." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "Wine them and dine them. That’s the government policy. Maybe on Jordan wines." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Edighoffer", "text": [ "Maybe, Mr. Speaker, Hydro prefers power before food, and that is what a lot of other people may have to live on if Hydro doesn’t change its thinking." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "Or Moog and Davis." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Edighoffer", "text": [ "Just before I leave the subject of Ontario Hydro, I wish to say that there are a group of concerned farmers of the united townships of Turnberry, Howick, Wallace, Maryborough, Peel, Woolwich and Pilkington who really reject Hydro’s proposal and suggested that these lines could go further north, which would be shorter and probably cheaper. I hope that Ontario Hydro and the cabinet take a good look at their proposal and agree with their wishes.", "Mr. Speaker, I would just like to say a few words about land-use planning. I was hoping to see something substantial in the Throne Speech regarding land-use planning. In 1973 the Throne Speech stated that there would be major new programmes designed to ensure sound planning, and particularly to preserve the land resource for the use and advantage of future generations. That was in 1973, but in 1974 the government has completely forgotten this need.", "Last year, as I mentioned earlier, I sent out a questionnaire; and on that questionnaire I asked two questions that had to do with land-use planning. One question was: “Should Ontario have an overall land-use plan?” Again, the people answered with a resounding “yes,” 78.2 per cent for and 9.2 per cent against. I also went a little further and asked: “Should agricultural land be designated and accompanied by a special reduced tax rate?” Again, 67 per cent said “yes,” 21 per cent “no,” and 11 per cent had no comment.", "I think the people are really looking for direction, Mr. Speaker, but to date nothing substantial has been offered. If the amount of energy and money that has gone into the government policy regarding regional government had been expended on land-use planning, we would not be in the predicament we are in now.", "I also have a word or two to say about nursing homes, Mr. Speaker --" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Yes, good idea." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Edighoffer", "text": [ "I was glad to see the new Minister of Health (Mr. Miller) appointed because, of course, he was parliamentary assistant to the previous Minister of Health; I have had experience with him when he was parliamentary assistant, and he took a great interest in extended health care.", "With this experience, I hope he will take time to assess the further need for more nursing homes in many areas. To date, though, it appears that the ministry has been approving additions to present homes or approving new facilities and looked at the need only on a statistical basis. That is, if the area has four beds per 1,000 of population, then another area can’t have more beds if they have four beds per 1,000.", "I hope that the minister looks a little closer at the need and gives consideration to each area of the province on its own conditions. Many areas find that they are perhaps more dormitory areas or have a bigger percentage of retired people. Naturally, if this is the case, the need could be greater. And if there are a number of good homes in the area, I suggest that he look very closely at updating or adding to the present homes. I know from my own experience in visiting nursing homes in my area, that the smaller nursing home gives the kind of care that those patients and their families appreciate, because of the more home-like and human attitude.", "Not too long ago, Mr. Speaker, on March 27, there was an announcement in my riding regarding transportation. I have talked about transportation in this House since 1967, pertaining particularly to better access to Highway 401 from the city of Stratford. On that date, March 27, the Ministry of Transportation and Communications announced that they were considering a new highway from New Hamburg to Stratford; that’s Highway 7 and 8. I’m sure that when you’ve gone up to the festival, Mr. Speaker, you’ve noticed how clogged that road really is. But I have to say that in announcing this highway they stated that we would not have it until 1980 or 1982, and it might not even be constructed until 1985." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Shame." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Terrible.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Edighoffer", "text": [ "Now, they have had a study team there for about 14 or 16 months. I saw a figure of the cost in the newspaper, but I won’t repeat it because I’m not certain that it’s exactly correct. But they’ve had that team working for over a year -- mind you, with some public participation -- trying to sort out the best route. And they finally decided.", "However, I found it most interesting -- and I attended many of the public meetings in the area -- that a member of the study team stated specifically at many of the meetings that the minister had the final say and that the local member would have input. I would just like to record at this time that, as far as I am concerned, the representative of the study team was not exactly correct; I’ve talked to the previous minister and to the present minister and to date, after offering my services, I have not been asked for any particular advice on this highway.", "This route, Mr. Speaker -- and I am sure you are aware that part of this route is constructed from Kitchener to New Hamburg at the moment -- this route is planned for four lanes. But then that is for 1991. Imagine -- 1991.", "This really shows how fast this particular ministry really works." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. A. Stewart (Minister of Agriculture and Food)", "text": [ "Does the hon. member want a four-lane highway?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Eaton (Middlesex South)", "text": [ "The minister will give him one." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F Nixon", "text": [ "I’ll bet they call it “Stewart Highway.”", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Edighoffer", "text": [ "I’m just coming to that now.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Edighoffer", "text": [ "Well, the minister certainly has been up in Perth quite a bit; he should have heard that." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "No, he has never got over losing Perth." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "He won’t get over Huron for a long time either." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gaunt", "text": [ "We’re pulling the net tighter and tighter." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Ruston (Essex-Kent)", "text": [ "He’s in the wringer." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Edighoffer", "text": [ "Well, Mr. Speaker, it’s interesting that when this study team was in our area on March 27, they of course tried to soften things a bit and stated that they now would be doing a study to see whether they should upgrade the present Highway 7 and 8.", "I know the Minister of Agriculture and Food is most interested in how I feel on this subject, and I would say, first of all, that they should have upgraded the present Highway 7 and 8 five or 10 years ago. So they are way behind time in that respect.", "I would also like to say, Mr. Speaker, that from my experience of driving on the present two-lane highway from New Hamburg to Kitchener, which is designed to be eventually a four-lane highway, it’s a very badly designed highway for two lanes and, I think, it’s very dangerous. So if this particular highway is going to be built, Mr. Speaker, I would have to say that this highway should be built as a four-lane highway immediately. The only thing else I would add to that is that, since that we have a new Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Rhodes) and because the announcement came from his office, I would like to invite him to come up to our area as soon as possible. I can’t supply a chauffeur, but I would be glad to take him over the route and discuss it further with him personally." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "Why doesn’t the member get the Women’s Institute group and take them along with them?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "That is by hovercraft so he won’t get all the bumps." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Edighoffer", "text": [ "They are all right now. I was out to see them the other night.", "Mr. Speaker, just before closing I would like to say that many areas were covered in the Throne Speech. Mind you, we didn’t get many details, but there was one point I noticed which was left out of the Throne Speech. It seems as if these types of points are quite often left out of government pronouncements. Not too long ago -- I believe it was on March 15 -- the London Free Press had an editorial. I am always interested in the editorials of the London Free Press because generally they are quite favourable to the government. But this one here was entitled, “Lose Your Job At A Profit.” I would just like to quote from this editorial.", "The Ontario government has evidently adopted an intriguing programme of job renewal made easy. When it is desired to move a high civil servant out of a job and replace him with the government’s latest choice, just make certain that it is worth his while to leave. It is very simple. It smooths the way for everybody and no one is hurt. It is an even simpler procedure when it is all done with public money.", "The latest example of the government’s regime of high-mindedness in job replacement is the disclosure that A. A. Rowan-Legg was paid a total of $42,000 to terminate his employment as Ontario Agent General in Britain and turn the job over to former Londoner Ward Cornell." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Who is that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Edighoffer", "text": [ "Well, he was also distinguished as Mr. Hockey Night in Canada.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "He is really selling Ontario products and food produce." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Does he still do those Avco Finance commercials?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Edighoffer", "text": [ "To go on with the editorial, all that was in there was that he was knows as Mr. Hockey Night in Canada and he was the campaign manager of the Treasurer (Mr. White).", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Could he stick handle?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Edighoffer", "text": [ "It said he was most interested in supplying public relations expertise to various enterprises of the Ontario Conservative Party." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Let me tell the member he has been excellent at all those," ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Edighoffer", "text": [ "It could be." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Yes, sir." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Financially at least." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Edighoffer", "text": [ "I am coming to that." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "That’s good." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Edighoffer", "text": [ "The editorial said:", "There was a new twist to the procedure. Mr. Rowan-Legg received $35,000 in severance pay and also $7,000 for job relocation in Toronto. It is logical enough when you think of it. Relocation payments have been in order for urban renewal. Why not for job renewal?", "The system was established in a more celebrated case with the Workmen’s Compensation Board. It worked so well then that the Ontario government probably decided to use it regularly. In that instance, a Workmen’s Compensation Board member, Jack Cauley, was, according to testimony at a public hearing, paid handsomely for simply withdrawing from the board two years early, but there was a misunderstanding. Mr. Cauley understood that, in addition to sick leave and vacation credit of $62,000, he was to be paid his regular salary of $27,000 a year. He made quite a fuss.", "Then later it was the turn of Mr. Cauley’s boss in the Workmen’s Compensation Board, Brig. Gen. Bruce Legge, to be offered a year’s salary to resign. Mr. Legge had been coping with a series of administrative problems at WCB. He was replaced by Michael Starr, a former federal Conservative labour minister.", "It may well be that the province has been a beneficiary in all of these moves. Both Mr. Starr and Mr. Cornell are eminently capable men. It is the implications of the replacement system that are interesting. The discovery may have been made by now in the high echelons of the Ontario civil service that the best way to achieve a profitable retirement or relocation is to find a friend or functionary of the Ontario Conservative Party and make it essential to have him installed in your job.", "And that ends the editorial from the London Free Press." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Right on." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "The London Free Press?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "Great paper." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "That’s distributed in Middlesex too." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Edighoffer", "text": [ "I think it’s a most interesting editorial. They call it, “A Job Renewal Made Easy programme,” and when I look at the initials, they spell JRME. I really don’t know how you pronounce that, Mr. Speaker, but it sounds like some kind of a germ. I just hope, though, that the people of Ontario will soon see how the taxpayers’ money is being wasted.", "Mr. Speaker, in closing, I have to say that the Throne Speech again was too general. It has not really shown the widest desire to relieve any of the immediate problems relating to inflation, housing or land-use planning, and I am certainly ready to support the meaty amendment placed by my leader." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Windsor West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. J. Bounsall (Windsor West)", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My opening remarks are going to be a personal reference to you, sir. Occasionally my oldest daughter, who is now nine years old, makes an appearance in the galleries of the legislative building and, needless to say, your dress and attire and general deportment have convinced her that you are absolutely the No. 1 person in the Province of Ontario.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur)", "text": [ "She shows sound judgement, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "She thinks that you control everything, run everything and that you are scrupulously fair. I have assured her; on all three counts that that is true.", "She was therefore very upset at the end of the session last December to find that Mr. Speaker had taken ill. And although she wasn’t down for the opening this time, she was very relieved, satisfied and happy, as we all were, when I reported to her that you were indeed in good health, looking fine and everything was well with the Province of Ontario. She says she certainly hopes that it will continue, as we all do.", "My opening remarks in terms of an individual area of concern this year relate to the Americanization, if you like, or the de-Americanization of our universities. I am concerned by a recent incident at the University of Windsor, my old university, with respect to the non-admittance of graduate students -- students who have A averages -- from one section of clinical psychology into the graduate programme, the master’s programme.", "One cannot convey to the Minister of Colleges and Universities (Mr. Auld), in a question in the House, all of the detailed concepts which I would hope could be carried out in this field. But my question to him earlier this week was to ask if he would see that all of the individual disciplines in the universities of our province devised, by themselves and on common agreement amongst all of these departments from all universities a rational graduate student admission policy that would take into account the differing backgrounds and the different training of students who apply.", "When I was department head of chemistry at the University of Windsor, which I became back in 1968, my predecessor and the other department heads of chemistry across this province had already decided that this was what they should do within the discipline of chemistry right across this province. In this way, if they were called upon at any time to justify the numbers of graduate students they were admitting or why they admitted those particular graduate students, there would be common agreement as to the actions taken and why they were taken. By talking to each other, through the experience we had, we attempted to devise what is in effect a rational policy in this area.", "It was not an easy thing to do, as we found. It had been going on for about a year before I occupied that particular chair as a representative from the University of Windsor, and it carried on for another year and a half before we could say we had a policy, which we then kept testing each and every year.", "The policy was very simply this. No student can be admitted to graduate school in any university in Ontario unless he has a B average. Our experience, and experience at other universities, had shown that if students had a B-plus or better average they performed, with the odd exception, remarkably better in graduate school; the simple B average cutoff point was in fact too low.", "So within our own universities, for our own graduates, we established that the minimum would be B-plus. We then said that all those students who have backgrounds with which we are unfamiliar will be required to take the American set, the American-marked graduate record examinations.", "These examinations are very important for students in American universities because of the vast background difference from one American university to another. This situation is not true in the universities of the Province of Ontario. One can be fairly well assured that a graduate in chemistry from the Lakehead has an equivalent background to a graduate in chemistry at the University of Toronto or at the University of Windsor or any other university. From experience looking around the rest of Canada, we found this also to be true for the rest of the universities in Canada. There was not, in the field of chemistry, what one would call a weak university in terms of its undergraduate programme. So we could take a student with a B-plus average from Dalhousie University who applied and know that B-plus average was in fact --", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "That strikes a responsive note.", "We would know that was in fact equivalent to a B-plus average from the University of Manitoba or from our own institution.", "So in terms of Canadian students we were happy. Anyone who had a B-plus or better was accepted if we had the positions available.", "At our own university from time to time -- and this occurred as far as I can recollect in 1965 and 1966 -- we asked our own graduating class in honours chemistry who were thinking of going on to graduate school to write the GR examinations, the graduate record examinations produced for Princeton so that we could compare their scores with those we were getting on other applicants who were let in, from the United States primarily.", "We wanted to compare their progress through graduate school. We found a situation that would not surprise anyone. We found the scores attained by the Canadian graduates, those from our department, were not as high as the graduate record examination scores of the Americans.", "However, in graduate school there was no measurable difference between the groups. It confirmed to us what we suspected, that the GREs were needed as a test for American graduates because of the wide diversity of universities and the wide differences in programmes. The GREs were needed down there and have been in use for some years. Chemistry departments at most American colleges and universities geared their undergraduate programme around material given to pass a graduate record examination. After the graduate record examinations are given -- and they can be taken three or four times in the course of a given year -- one can get a copy of the examination that had been given in the immediate past. We used to obtain copies of these, and when we looked at them we found they were repetitious in their testing of material in a certain area. That is, one exam did not differ widely in the area it covered from another examination. The questions would differ, but not in the area.", "When we looked at those examinations, we could see that by and large they asked no questions in the area of what we would call theoretical chemistry, which we gave all across Ontario and Canada generally as one of our fourth-year subjects. No questions like that appeared. They were more heavily weighted in the area of factual inorganic chemistry than any Canadian or Ontario university was.", "We adopted the attitude here in Canada -- and I think it’s a right one -- that there’s no point in burdening one’s mind down with a whole bunch of facts provided one knows where to look for those facts. That was not the attitude, generally speaking, in the United States. So one had a lot of factual material appearing on those examinations.", "If we were going to make it a requirement that our graduates take those examinations and we were going to use them as a basis for entering graduate school, we would have had to rearrange our undergraduate programmes in order to see that they were at least exposed to that material. This we were unwilling to do.", "We were well aware, by comparison of examinations from year to year, that in fact one could plan an undergraduate programme geared to passing those examinations. This we did not and would not do in Ontario, and therefore we knew that our students writing those same examinations would not score as highly as students taking those examinations in United States universities.", "We said that graduate record examinations will not be a test of admittance to graduate school for a Canadian student, but for any student whose background we didn’t know, we would have them take the GRE and use that as a score.", "We also knew that those students applying to us from the British Isles also had an aptitude towards chemistry that was rather similar to ours. Their programmes again were not geared to assimilating data but rather to attaining concepts. And because, again, those institutions could be rated as good or better, relative to Ontario ones, we simply said that an upper second class from any British Isles university is acceptable as equivalent to a Canadian student in terms of admission, and we did not require them to take that examination.", "We found, by trial and error over the years, that graduates in chemistry from some of the Oriental universities -- the University of Hong Kong, the University of Korea, the University of South Vietnam and the University of Taiwan -- were as good as those from the British institutions. Again, we did not require a GRE from students from those universities, and we were never disappointed. A B-plus or certainly an A average in chemistry from those universities honestly grading students -- and we never found that they didn’t -- was identical to our students. With the US students it was very applicable, as it was with students from India, Pakistan and South America, and we required those students to take the GRE.", "By the way, we also policed ourselves very carefully. We always had a meeting in the first week of October, at which time we all brought in the lists of graduate students whom we had accepted and what their GRE scores were if they were in the categories that I’ve outlined; or if they were Canadian students, British or from the University of Hong Kong, we also listed what their grades were. We brought enough copies for every department head in Ontario and laid them on the table. And if there were any extenuating circumstances, if somehow we had let someone in with a B average or with a GRE score of less than 720, which was the cutoff point in the chemistry scores, they really had to justify to us why they had let that particular student in. On the odd time there were good, solid extenuating circumstances why a student who, on the surface of things didn’t meet up, was admitted. We really put the pressure on our colleagues, when, as would happen from time to time, it appeared one institution was getting a little soft.", "I am suggesting to the Minister of Colleges and Universities that because in Ontario the province, through its grants to the universities, pays $8,000 a year in round terms for a student on a master’s programme and $12,000 a year in round terms for a student on a PhD programme, those disciplines in the Province of Ontario which have not agreed they should have some common, completely clear, sorted out admission standards, should be told by the minister: “You had better get together and you had better sort them out pretty promptly because we want to ensure that in the Province of Ontario Canadians stand a good chance of getting into graduate school in those institutions, and so that we know a graduate student admitted to the University of Windsor is admitted on the same fair, equitable terms as a graduate student admitted to the University of Toronto or the Lakehead or anywhere else.”", "With the department heads working around the province with whoever in their departments helped them with the graduate admissions -- the committees on graduate admissions -- they will be able to devise a common admissions standard which will be fair, and then they apply it. The minister shouldn’t be saying to the separate disciplines, such as psychology which is the case in dispute at Windsor at the moment: “This must be your standard;” but they might well be interested in seeing what the results of those discussion were.", "I am suggesting it isn’t going to be a particularly easy task. They can look and see what has happened in other disciplines and how they arrived at their standards, such as the chemistry one I have outlined. In a sense the disciplines do differ from one to another so one leaves it to those disciplines to work out those standards and leaves it to the disciplines to police them, but the minister must say: “This should be done.”", "This should and must be done so the public of the Province of Ontario knows it is getting good value for the $8,000 spent for a master’s student and good value for the $12,000 spent for a PhD student. I do not wish to be unduly or subtly anti-American here but if the Province of Ontario is going to be subsidizing masters’ students by $8,000 and PhD students by $12,000 a year for the few openings there are, and because of the tightness of money for colleges and universities in the province, there must be an opportunity for those qualified Canadian undergraduate students to enter into the graduate programme. The Ontario taxpayers’ money must be used to further the education of Canadians first and students of other nationalities second.", "We do not drop the standards for graduate student admission to ensure that the programmes are entirely filled with Canadians but we ensure that Canadians get in. If a choice has to be made it should be the Canadian, in general terms, who is accepted first so that, across the province, there can be no charge of the type we have seen in the last week surrounding the clinical psychology division at the University of Windsor.", "Before I leave this topic, I might say that some of the disciplines in Ontario have been very keen to do things of this sort. It hasn’t been just the chemistry which has done it, the mathematics disciplines have done it; geography and political science have done it. I believe geology has done it. There are five or six disciplines which have met, set up and reached this common agreement on the admissions standards. Enough have done it to show the other disciplines how they have done it and why, so they may not take 2½ years to arrive at some policy which would be acceptable in this area.", "In the statements that were given prior to the question period today, I was rather interested to hear about the licence sticker situation that exists in the province. It occurred to me to make one comment in the Throne Speech debate on those stickers.", "The idea of four-year plates with stickers that go on them is a good one. When the stickers came out, however, I was rather disappointed. When I put mine on my car, if I stood 30 feet away from it I couldn’t see it.", "There was a difference, there was a sticker on that licence plate but if I took my glasses off I couldn’t see it 10 ft away.", "And I’m only short-sighted in one eye, Mr. Speaker, the other is fine. I am tempted to wear a monocle of course.", "However, to return to the point, one of the things which always reminded people, as January wound its way into February and so on, to get their new licence plates was that they could see the startling difference; and here we have a sticker which one really can’t see." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. C. E. McIlveen (Oshawa)", "text": [ "Maybe the member should get his eyes tested." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "Maybe the one good eye isn’t functioning quite up to par. The member is not saying, surely, that these stickers markedly show themselves, that they jump out and say that the licence plates have changed?", "I lived for a year in Los Angeles doing some graduate work and they had the same system. They have had it all through the sixties. A licence plate lasts for four years, but their stickers, when put on the corner, are markedly different. They glow in the dark, and when the time of year comes when one needs to put that sticker on, one can see that sticker as one drives down the street; you are constantly reminded of it.", "In that period when you have to purchase the new stickers, by the very way in which they visually present them to you, one says: “Ah, I haven’t got mine yet.”", "I think that contributed very much this year to the very slow sales that progressed through almost to the end of February, that fact that people were not reminded by seeing a marked difference in licence plates. That marked difference could be achieved by having a sticker fixed to that plate which in fact would catch the attention.", "I suggest to the new Minister of Transportation and Communication that next year’s sticker be one which glows in the dark; black on blaze orange would be very acceptable on licence plates in this province, Mr. Speaker.", "I want to say a few words in the area of health. The Minister of Health (Mr. Miller) relying very much on an internally-produced report from one of the departments, has said there should not be a heart-lung pump machine at IODE Windsor Western Hospital.", "Well, I tend to agree with some of the thinking that led to that recommendation; the thinking being that where these machines have been in operation in other parts of the province it has been shown that the first 10 or 11 times these machines are used the patients in fact died, that it takes a little use of the machine by the team that has been collected to use it before the expertise is arrived at where the patient survives. They have very legitimate concern in Windsor there may not be enough use of that heart-lung machine -- really it is a heart bypass pump -- so that the team would be adequately experienced.", "In the input on that decision they went back into OHIP records to see how many people from Windsor had been treated with a heart-lung pump or a bypass pump in other centres in Ontario or the United States and were billing OHIP for it. Then they said: “Look, the use of Windsor people of this device is only 20 or 25 cases a year, and on that basis the demand is not large enough -- to give a team in the city of Windsor any expertise. Therefore the results of the operations using this pump would not be highly satisfactory.”", "The counter-argument from the medical staff most concerned with this at IODE hospital was that there were many instances -- and their guess was 100 a year -- when that pump would be used. Because there was no pump in the area, the patients died, or the hospitals knew they were in such poor shape they could not be transported to London or Toronto or Cleveland where that machine could be used. They subsequently died, perhaps not as a result of not having used it, but they were never in good enough shape to get them to a place where it could be used. If all those patients were counted, we would have a per patient use of about 100-a-year at Windsor and that would certainly give the team using this device enough expertise that the patients would not be dying as the result of an inexperienced team.", "The disagreement really came down to do we have 20 or 100 patients a year who’d use it in the Windsor area? The ministry just said no, it said no also for another reason. It had two other reasons and one of them, I think was fairly valid, one of them was invalid.", "One reason was that internal medicine had advanced to the stage where the internists were saying that most of the operations in which a heart bypass pump was used could now be corrected by chemical treatment. The internists were saying this but the heart specialists were disagreeing with the internists on that point. It appeared that the Ministry of Health bought the argument of the internists but it still isn’t proved that chemical treatment can replace the use of a heart-lung pump machine.", "The second reason is the one which is invalid; that first one was invalid enough but one could say it’s at least a philosophical, intellectual argument the ministry adopted.", "The other one was that wherever there has been a heart-lung pump machine -- or rather we fear that if there is a heart-lung pump machine the same team which becomes expert in the usage of that heart pump bypass would want to get into open-heart surgery. Therefore we don’t want to take the risk of putting in this type of machine in Windsor because they might use it for a couple of years; then the team gets expert at it and says, “Here we are, experienced with a heart bypass machine; we want now to start operating on the heart.”", "Where are the guts in the ministry? If it says: “No, it is not going to be expanded to open-heart surgery and that is the only use we are going to let you put it to,” it should be able to say that at any given time and not fear a request of that type coming in. It should have approved the heart-lung machine.", "The ministry goes around and says; “We really want co-operation from the public. We want to give decision-making powers to the regional health councils and what-have-you.” In the Essex county committee there were great disagreements within the committee for a while, once the money for this machine was raised by a group of individuals, as to whether nor not they should have it.", "They finally said: “We’ll try it for a year. If the medical staff at IODE thinks there are 100 in the course of the year, okay, let’s give it a year’s trial. If the first 10 or 11 die until that team gets used to each other, so be it. That’s the choice of the people on whom the machine will be used; the team will have time with the patients after that to become expert on it and after a year’s time we’ll know whether there are 100 patients and whether there are enough people around to use the machine for a valid use so the team becomes expert on it; and whether the team, in fact, is a good team to be using it.”", "They said: “We approve it. Let’s put it on a one-year trial basis.”", "So help me, I can’t see why the Ministry of Health could not have said: “Okay, on a year’s trial basis. We know your concerns down there in Essex county regarding its use, and we’ll be watching along with you.”", "There is no excuse, in my mind, why they could not have bought the decision of that Essex county medical advisory committee. By not so doing what the ministry hasn’t seemed to grasp is that they have pretty well killed forever co-operation by citizen groups in Windsor around health projects because of this experience. They have certainly got a much more cynical group of people, a much more suspicious group of people with respect to the Health Ministry sitting on the Essex county health advisory committee. And it has not given them any encouragement to proceed along new lines with respect to other medicine and other medical events m that county.", "If I was a member of that committee and had fought through the decisions and listened to all the arguments from both sides -- the heart people in Windsor and the internists in Windsor -- and then had the health ministry cancel the decision just like that. I would have been pretty disappointed; and pretty put off by the ministry officials.", "I’m still saying to the ministry officials, put it back in -- let it go for a year’s trial and then see.", "One of their arguments is money; that they are going to have to pay so much each time that machine is used. There is a certain fee submitted to OHIP for it. Well let me tell members what happens when a Windsor patient has to be taken to Detroit. After a lot of letter writing to the Ministry of Health, it is determined that only 90 per cent of the Ontario medical rate is paid to the doctor -- but somehow they always end up paying a fair amount of the hospital bill, thank God, on behalf of the patient.", "If one patient was in hospital in a month in Detroit, and that is not an undue length of hospital time for a patient -- the size of the bill would pay the entire operating costs of the use of that machine for a whole year at IODE Western hospital in Windsor.", "So on economic terms they have absolutely no argument whatsoever in having a trial period for that machine in Windsor.", "When the point came up the other day in the House I suggested to the Minister of Health that -- and this is where a crunch really comes, personally -- if a patient is taken to London, is taken to Toronto, is taken to Montreal, is taken to Cleveland in order that one of these heart bypasses be used, you have the family very concerned. At least one member of that family wants to be with them. That’s not a surprising attitude for the member of that family to take. But we find that the cost of the transportation down and the cost of the accommodation for at least the three or four critical days around the time of its use is high -- and in many cases they can’t afford it.", "I made a suggestion to the Minister of Health, not just for the Windsor situation but for any other community across the province, that if the family has to go -- and it’s reasonable that they should -- to a different city because the Ministry of Health in its economizing policy say: “We are not going to scatter these things around in a way that you all might like to see;” then the Ministry of Health should at least pay their transportation costs -- and go a long way to pay most of their accommodation costs as well.", "That is the humane thing to do in this situation. They might not want to pay for eight members of the family for three or four days, but they should be able to pay it for one for three or four days.", "It’s a tense enough situation anyway -- an emotional situation. The patient is going in to undergo heart surgery, or heart bypass surgery, and the family should not have the economic burden as well.", "There is one other small point with respect to health in the city of Windsor. A couple of years ago a group of people came to see me who were all rehabilitated alcoholics. Many of them had been through that excellent treatment centre, the Donwood Institute in the Metro Toronto area. They had run across a particular problem which they brought to me to see if I could help them out.", "They are now off alcohol. They are ex-alcoholics. They are making a good attempt to stay off it. However, all their old friends still exist. Whenever they go over to visit any of their old friends socially they find they are offered a drink. I mean, their old friends aren’t alcoholics, but they are still drinkers and in the course of the evening they have a drink.", "They feel very embarrassed because they can’t, though very tempted I suppose in many cases, and they found that they were tending to stay at home and not visit any of their old friends because their old friends always had drink around. Or their old friends, in their presence, would not haul out a beer because they knew it might upset them. They were making their friends uncomfortable and they found that they had to really terminate their old friendships and there was not much way in which they could easily establish new", "They said to me: “Is there some place in the city of Windsor where we could get together and set up a social centre for rehabilitated alcoholics, where we can go and have a social evening and not experience any pressure to have any alcohol and alcohol will not be there?”", "I gave them a hand in tracking down some places and they got very admirably set up in the old library in the Adie Knox Community Centre, which is very centrally located on a bus line in Windsor. They got some funding at that time through LIP grants, but they have all run out. They need about $15,000 to $18,000 a year to keep that centre in operation as they have in the past. It has worked remarkably successfully. There are a lot of people who are getting a lot of strength and sustenance from coming to that centre and knowing they can come there and associate, on a social basis pure and simple, with people who have had the same problem that they have but are in no danger of encountering any alcohol on the premises.", "I would suggest to the Ministry of Health, or to any other ministry that might be interested, that this is a project worth funding. It has become very satisfying and is reaching and serving a real need in Windsor.", "Mr. Speaker, I have further remarks. I could start them now for half a minute or wait until 8 o’clock." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Well, if the hon. member finds this a convenient spot to break his remarks I think it would be appropriate.", "It being 6 o’clock, p.m., the House took recess." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. J. R. Rhodes (Minister of Transportation and Communications)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a statement concerning the article which appeared in last week’s Sunday Sun regarding the development of linear induction motors being researched in Britain.", "We have been watching the British work by Dr. Eric Laithwaite on his “magnetic river” concept since he announced it last August in a British electronics journal. We will continue to examine this concept and see what applications of it may be made to urban transit. To date, Dr. Laithwaite has not published technical details or the basic principles of how it will work.", "The staff of the Ontario Transportation Development Corp. has been in direct contact with Dr. Laithwaite as recently as yesterday and, by his own admission, he has not studied the applicability of his concept to low-speed urban transit. He is, however, quite interested in interacting with our OTDC on ways in which his concept might be fitted into the GO-Urban technology as a future development. We are, of course, interested in encouraging such co-operation with his team and we are following it up.", "We do not intend to stop any of our present work because there is no basic conflict between his work and ours at this time, but we are even more encouraged that our efforts in research and development will provide meaningful solutions in our urban mobility requirements of the future. Canada has begun a development process in transit, and far from abandoning it when other promising breakthroughs may appear, we are dedicated to continuing development.", "We are quite prepared to recognize and adopt future developments from others throughout the world, but it should be recognized that Dr. Laithwaite’s concept exists only as a scale model version for exhibit purposes. On the basis of our existing knowledge of his system and the committed development for it, it is not responsible to suggest that we stop our present development programme which has progressed past the full-scale vehicle stage.", "Prof. Eric Laithwaite is a distinguished and dedicated scientist and should be recognized as such. We are very interested in the British development and will keep as close to it as possible. We know that his variations on the linear induction motor have in some respects been incorporated in the low-speed intercity technology being developed in the US by Rohr Corp.", "Indeed our own linear induction motor programme has been advanced by the recent federal government contribution to the SPAR Corp.’s dynamic test track. This programme includes looking into various propulsion limits including some adaptation on the motors designed for the current transit demonstration.", "The Ontario government has committed itself to being in the forefront of transit technology and the Ontario Transportation Development Corp. congratulates Dr. Laithwaite on his work to date. We recognize change as a continued part of the research and development process, and if we are to stay at the front of development, we will continue our development, constantly assessing the work of others around us, and that includes discussions with Dr. Laithwaite to consider how the corporation may participate in his work as well. It is as irresponsible to suggest development work be stopped as it is to ignore the work of others in the field.", "To characterize the development presently under way at the CNE and in Germany as a “$1 billion lemon”, is both unfounded and gross misrepresentation. The work to date has provided a valuable fund of development that shows substantial promise of providing efficient, attractive and environmentally sensitive transit to many urban areas, and is capable of substantial further development and innovation. To characterize the development programme to be a $1 billion programme is to misrepresent the present commitment and to confuse both the development programme and an on-going implementation programme. The $1 billion is the government’s commitment to finance innovative transit in Ontario cities in all of its forms." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. F. Laughren (Nickel Belt)", "text": [ "Not all cities." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Anyone who suggests we should abandon our present work, and confuses a “Disneyland project” with the serious, committed research that is going on in Canada, in Germany and in the UK, is only denying the very development effort that creates technical breakthroughs and progress.", "If we are serious about the mobility needs of our urban areas in the future, we will not only not discontinue our present development efforts, but we will expand them. If we have any insight and commitment to the future of Canada, its cities, our engineers and our science community, we will reject the narrow, short-sighted approach of our opposition sceptics. Investment of the kind that the UK, Germany and the Ontario government have undertaken provides a meaningful programme for continued advancement." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "The minister would have no goodies at all, would he?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "At the present time, Dr. Laithwaite is proceeding to build a demonstration model of his research work." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Bullbrook (Sarnia)", "text": [ "We know whom the $1 billion limit is for." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "We, like the rest of the world, will be anxious to review the demonstration as he attempts to make all existing forms of high speed technology obsolete. It would appear there is a substantial distance between the current state of development and an operating capability. It would also appear that Dr. Laithwaite’s research work would find its greatest application in high speed intercity services where constant acceleration and deceleration as a result of frequent station spacings, the requirement for frequent switching and a complex control system for close headway maintenance will not be as important as in low speed urban applications.", "We have consistently stated that one of our principal motivations is to initiate and continue a high technology development process in Canada. This will involve a constant review of all developing technologies. It should surprise no one that there will be a constant adaptation and improvement in the technology.", "Development in such an important area is a responsibility of government and not a waste of money. The Ontario government is the one agency in Canada that has led in this field with its dedication to development programmes to solve domestic problems." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)", "text": [ "Except in the north." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. A. J. Roy (Ottawa East)", "text": [ "The minister doesn’t understand a word he is reading." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "It will continue to do so by pursuing its present development programme, continuing the programme of the OTDC, co-operating with other developers and jurisdictions in solving the urban mobility problems and expanding its monetary and research commitment to this important area." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. P. G. Givens (York-Forest Hill)", "text": [ "The minister said he didn’t know anything about electromagnetics just yesterday, now he is an expert." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)", "text": [ "Great commercial." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Minister of Health." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)", "text": [ "This will be another great one.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "What jokes does the minister have for us today?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. F. S. Miller (Minister of Health)", "text": [ "I don’t need any jokes as long as the member is here." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)", "text": [ "He should be on stage instead of representing the ministry." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. M. Havrot (Timiskaming)", "text": [ "Caught the member right between the eyes, didn’t it?" ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, today I am introducing the first six parts of the Health Disciplines Act dealing with five major health disciplines -- dentistry, medicine, nursing, optometry and pharmacy. Legislation covering other health disciplines will be introduced later." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "That is in alphabetical order, isn’t it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Is the minister going to put in a denturists’ bill?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The question period will follow." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "As the hon. members know, this bill has resulted from a number of years of intensive work by many groups and has benefited by considerable public involvement. In April, 1970, the report of the Committee on the Healing Arts was tabled in the Legislature. At the request of the Health Minister of the day, the Ontario Council of Health reviewed this report and made certain recommendations in November, 1970.", "As a result of these two reports, “The Guiding Principles for the Regulation and Education of the Health Disciplines” were made public in January, 1971. Based on these guiding principles, discussions were undertaken between the Ministry of Health, health disciplines and other interested bodies, which resulted in draft legislation in June, 1972. These legislative proposals were tabled in this House as a discussion document entitled, “Legislative Proposals for a Health Disciplines Act.” Since then, many months of discussions with the health disciplines involved and other interested groups, including the public, led to the legislation being introduced today.", "This Act, Mr. Speaker, ensures that the activities of health disciplines are effectively regulated and co-ordinated in the public interest. It also ensures that appropriate standards of practice are developed and maintained and that rights of individuals to services provided by health disciplines of their choice are safeguarded. The legislation now before us embodies some changes from the earlier proposals. All of these changes have resulted from information and advice gained through public discussion.", "Essentially, the bill proposes that each health discipline covered by this Act will be regulated by a college. The membership of the college’s governing council will comprise both professional members of the discipline and lay representatives." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "The member is learning well. He is coming along." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Depending on the numerical strength of the council of an individual college, the mandatory number of lay members has been increased and varies from a minimum of two to a maximum of eight. The legislation also provides that lay representatives will be included on the registration, complaints and discipline committees of the respective colleges.", "The government believes that as much as possible, each health discipline should be responsible through its governing council for the conduct of its members and should be permitted to carry out that responsibility independent of government interference. This determination was based on the principle that the public interest is best served when the government does not interfere in the activities of well-run and responsible private institutions.", "The government does have an interest, however, in seeing that a high standard is maintained by each health discipline with regard to its relationships with the public, its membership and with other health disciplines.", "Based on the principle that an appeal from the rulings made by a health discipline’s governing council should be made to a separate and appropriate body, an independent health discipline board will be set up, composed entirely of representatives of the public who are not members of any of the health disciplines under this Act. This board would conduct hearings and reviews with respect to complaints, from either the public or from members of the health disciplines, which in the opinion of the complainant, have not been satisfactorily dealt with by the regulatory bodies." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Is the minister going to thank them for this advice? Is he going to thank them for telling him this over the years? Say thank you." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "In addition, persons applying to the colleges for registration, who have had their applications refused by the regulatory bodies or have had limitations placed on how they may practice, may request a hearing by the health disciplines board.", "Under this bill, the Minister of Health has the responsibility for overall policy development and for the co-ordination and development of health disciplines with the rest of the health care system. The legislation also provides for advisory committees to the minister for necessary and desirable involvement of various health disciplines and the public in the co-ordination and development functions.", "The bill also provides that the Lieutenant Governor in Council may make regulations when the minister has requested a college to make, amend or revoke regulations and has not done so.", "In essence, then, Mr. Speaker, this bill sets out the scope of practice for four health disciplines. It also defines “registered nurse” and “registered nursing assistant.”", "It provides for self-regulation by each health discipline, subject to the views of mandatory lay representatives on their governing council and for an independent, lay health disciplines board to which appeals can be made. The Act provides for the licensing of some practitioners and the certification of others.", "Licensing involves the conferring on a particular person, the exclusive provincially granted right to practise. Practice by any person to whom such a right has not been granted is prohibited and made a punishable offence.", "Certification involves the provincial endorsement of competence, but not the exclusive right to practise. By applying a provincial standard, a stamp of approval is conferred on persons as competent to practise a specified occupation. Practice by an uncertified person is not prohibited and, of course, is not a punishable offence." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "That should be interesting." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "The parts relating to medicine and dentistry continue a broad scope of practice for these disciplines which is commensurate with their education and clinical training, and which provides for their licencing.", "The part on pharmacy identifies the role and responsibilities of pharmacists, and also provides for licensing.", "The part on nursing recognizes the different roles of registered nurses and registered nursing assistants in their particular fields of practice, which call for certification as contrasted to licensing.", "The part on optometry recognizes that optometrists provide services that are also within the broad scope of medicine. In this bill, therefore, their scope of practice requires definition, which is included." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "That will take a couple of hours." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "In bringing in this bill, then, Mr. Speaker, members will appreciate that a significant amount of effort has been directed over the past few years toward rationalizing the roles of various disciplines. This Act will form the basis of defining those areas in which the health disciplines will provide their services to the public." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "This had better be good, or the minister is going to be on his way out. He will join the previous minister." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Oral questions. The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister of Health, in relation to the statement he just made, if the bill that he introduces this afternoon will in any way change the status of the practice of the denturists -- presently illegal -- and, if not, does he contemplate additional legislation in that connection?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "No, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A supplementary: I’d like to ask the minister if that then is a statement that the present policy, which has prevailed since the passage of the statute and the proclamation of the present law, will remain unchanged and that is then established by his backbench colleagues?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "I do not think, Mr. Speaker, that the Leader of the Opposition should jump to that conclusion. The present Act was drafted progressively over a number of months. It allows for the present status of the practice of dentistry and denture therapists. As such, it will have a section in it similar to the present Dentistry Act defining that role." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Why doesn’t the minister stop playing games with the public and with these two professions and let the public know exactly where they stand in relation to the denturists and the dental situation? He’s been going around saying --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order. Order.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order. Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Very simply, why doesn’t the minister shape up and let us know where he’s going with that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "He has not answered the question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Downsview." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Is the minister through with my friend from Ottawa East? I don’t think he got an answer." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "It was not a proper question. It was a statement for the most part." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "The minister was up to answer.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "It would have been improper for him to answer it.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "I yield to my friend, who wants to rephrase his improper question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "He may ask a proper question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Does he not feel, as Minister of Health, that it is time he let the public know exactly where the government, of which he is a member, stands on this question, and that the denturists and the dentists are entitled to know exactly where they’re going with this plan, especially in light of the statement that he has made here today?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "I think that is a fair question, Mr. Speaker. I fully intend, if any change is made in the present legislation, to let members know that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "The minister has been saying that for weeks." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)", "text": [ "Supplementary: I would like to ask the Minister of Health, would it not be necessary within the ambit of the health disciplines legislation to bring in the denture therapists bill again for either amendment or confirmation by the Legislature in light of the other revisions of medical career lines? Does he not think it is, therefore, somewhat provocative to bring in the dentistry legislation without at the same time saying anything about his intentions as regards denture therapists?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I gave that a great deal of thought. If, in fact, the policy was firm and formulated at this point in time, I think the member’s reaction may be perfectly right and this bill should contain those parts. The denture therapist part of the health disciplines bill will came up in due course, as will a number of other parts. When it comes up, of course, the scope of practice for that particular part of the health field will be fully defined and open to discussion. But this bill has been a long time coming. We had a lot of public discussion." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Which one?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "I think it is only proper that we should have it here, regardless of future changes in the roles of the health disciplines which may affect many groups, not just one." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "If the minister is going to be consistent." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Downsview." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, by way of supplementary, will the minister’s bill include this independent health disciplines board or will that be the subject of a separate bill? And if it does include it, will it extend limitation periods and will it give the board the power either to order rectification or award damages?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "First of all, it will establish the board. To answer the member’s question, yes it will." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "This bill will?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Yes. There are time limitations for actions specified in the first part of the bill, the omnibus section, for action to be taken. As to the punitive effects, I would like to check them, but I know that there are some measures in the bill for that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for High Park." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Shulman (High Park)", "text": [ "In the minister’s statement he said that persons applying for registration who have had their applications refused may apply to the health disciplines board for a hearing, but he doesn’t say whether the health disciplines board has the power to overrule." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Yes, it would." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I have a question of the Minister of Transportation and Communications further to his statement." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "May I first ask a supplementary, Mr. Speaker?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I think perhaps one more would be reasonable." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Pursuant to the minister’s statement, what is the reason for introducing the bill, the Health Disciplines Act, with only four or five professions? In his statement, on page 4, he mentions that he wants to regulate and co-ordinate all these in the public interest. Why did he not include all the professions, physiotherapists and people like this?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "We are intending to do so. It is an open-ended bill. At this point in time there is no final determination of what is not a health discipline and what is. When the members realize the amount of time it took to get these five very important health disciplines to this point, I am quite sure they would not want us to wait for the next 21 disciplines that are already known before we had any legislation affecting any part of the health field." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "When are the chiropractors coming in?" ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I have a question of the Minister of Transportation and Communications. Can he assure the House, in as vehement a term as he used in his statement, that his ministry is prepared to consider technology that is already proved, like the light rail transit technology -- as an alternative to magnetic levitation?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. D. McKeough (Minister of Energy)", "text": [ "It’s the horse and buggy." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Oh, the minister is back in voice again." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Has he dismissed the present modes of technology?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "The horse and buggy." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Nobody will ask the Minister of Energy questions about energy, so he is hollering about transportation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Why doesn’t he levitate?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I think it is very fair to say that the government is prepared to look at all types of technology. Despite the comments that have been made by the Leader of the Opposition, it has always been the intention that we would use all forms of rapid transit tied together in one of the most integrated systems m all of North America." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Oh, but it is horse and buggy, he says." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "We may not go back to the horse and buggy that the member is used to, but I think we will stay with what we have." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "That would be faster than the minister is prepared to travel. I have a supplementary for clarification and certainly for the edification of those people involved with the surveys that are not under the minister’s control. Can the minister assure the House that the funds that are predicted to be available for urban transportation -- $1.5 billion -- could, in fact, be spent for light rail transportation if the municipalities concerned opted for that alternative?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, as was said in the statement, the amount of money that the Leader of the Opposition has been referring to is the amount of money that we have said would be committed to developing a proper and complete urban transit system available to the municipalities of this province." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Would it be spent for light rail transportation? Did the minister answer that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Givens", "text": [ "No.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Does the hon. minister have any further answer to the supplementary, I presume by the Leader of the Opposition?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Poor show." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "If not, the hon. member for Ottawa Centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker, in view of the minister’s comments on this: What discussions have been held between the ministry and the regions of Ottawa or the new municipality in Hamilton-Wentworth about alternative kinds of rapid transit as opposed to the Krauss-Maffei system?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I really can’t answer that. Those discussions would be going on at the official level through representatives of the Ontario Transportation Development Corp. and I cannot answer as to what discussions are being held at this time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Is he the minister or not?" ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I have a question, Mr. Speaker, of the Minister of Industry and Tourism. Can he justify to the House his approach to the business community of the province, on a confidential basis, for advice on the pending decision on Maple Mountain, without at least first having tabled in this House some of the feasibility studies which have now cost the taxpayers a quarter of a million dollars, so that the people concerned in the Maple Mountain area aren’t the people concerned in the province who are going to pay for this -- if in fact we go forward with it -- can have something to say about the decision?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. C. Bennett (Minister of Industry and Tourism)", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Speaker, I can." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well do it then." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Do so." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well then do it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, in the opinion of the minister and those in the government, we wanted some outside input to the situations that were being brought forward by our consultants --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "That’s an elected transport --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, it is fine for them to sit on the other side and continue to yak. Let’s look at the situation very frankly and honestly --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Does the minister mean they have no rights at all?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "What about the people in the area who have a right to know?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "We looked to outside organizations to give us some indication as to whether they felt there was any reason the government should continue to advance other studies on the Maple Mountain project, and if we came into this House and tabled the reports without some background, the very members who are now voicing their opinions on the direction we’ve taken would have expressed exactly the opposite point of view. I do justify on behalf of the government that we had --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Oh, Mr. Speaker, that’s not so. That’s what we’ve asked the minister to do." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "-- outside opinions expressed to us, yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary: Would not the minister agree that every member of this House has a responsibility to have an opinion on this matter? Opinions have been expressed by the member for Timiskaming urging that it be accepted and in his opinion that is fine. Why should we either damn it or support it, when there is no information available of the type that is presently in the hands of the minister, a quarter of a million dollars’ worth? That’s what we are here for, to assist in making these decisions.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I’m not asking the opposition at this point to either support or reject the plan. It is our position as government to recommend --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Try us some time." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "-- to this House the procedure or direction we are going to take, and if this is the way we see best to do it. Those reports, as I said to the leader of the NDP on one or two occasions, will be tabled in this House.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "As a supplementary, apart from the total contempt the minister shows for the whole legislative process, for everybody in this House --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "He shows contempt for the whole process, because that’s the way he operates. But leaving that aside for a moment, how does he justify the complete repudiation of any public participation at all in the formulation of plans which are intended to affect the economic livelihood and future development of an entire region of the province, which he has presented as an accomplished fact, and instead go to his friends in the private business community? How does he justify that kind of repudiation?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "First of all, Mr. Speaker, we value their opinion a great deal more than we do the NDP in this House, and if the leader --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Obviously, Mr. Speaker, the leader of the NDP --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "The minister used to be the same way at city council in Ottawa." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "That’s very true, Mr. Speaker, and I always had the encouragement of the member for Wellington ward, who wasn’t much better there than he is here. A great deal worse, likely.", "Now, Mr. Speaker, to get back to the question of the NDP leader -- because obviously he has a short memory; he has asked: the question several times -- he has placed the position before this House that we are not going to allow for public participation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)", "text": [ "He got no response." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)", "text": [ "No answer." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "I have said very clearly to him -- and I will repeat -- the reports we have are preliminary reports to give us some indication of whether Maple Mountain is --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Audio-visual demonstrations to the business community." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "If the member would sit and listen for a minute -- but he yahoos all the time. The NDP leader is not much better here than he is outside in Timmins, so he couldn’t even read the memo.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. A. Grossman (Provincial Secretary for Resources Development)", "text": [ "You don’t learn anything, Stephen.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Is the minister going to let the same thing happen at Maple Mountain as happened with the Minaki problem?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Wait till daddy finds out." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. L. Bernier (Minister of Natural Resources)", "text": [ "He will wish Minaki was in his riding.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "So, Mr. Speaker, we have said -- and I repeat -- that it is the opinion of the government that we should proceed with the project --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Minaki is just a white elephant and the minister knows it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "Jasper Park all over again." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "We have made our position clear to the members of this House that we will have full public participation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "After the event.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Well, that’s fine. You see, the leader of the NDP still misreads the memo, because this government has never said that they were advancing. They said they had preliminary reviews of the situation; but if the member wishes to --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I heard what the minister said." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "-- make his own interpretation he is welcome to it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well, yes I am." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "That’s right, because this government has not made a positive position in regard to Maple Mountain as to whether it will advance or not." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well, that’s what we’d like to know." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "That’s correct, and the member will know in due course -- all in the fullness of time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "After the fact.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Has he ever seen the mountain at night?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "We will then, at that point, sir, if it’s the decision the government go further, to make all of the reports --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "-- that we have had made available to government made available to the public, and we wall look for those organizations across this province that wish to express an opinion on a merger development." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "No, this government is too arbitrary. Much too arbitrary." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Well, of course, practically everything is arbitrary when it’s coming from the member’s direction --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order. Order. The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "We intend to be the government and provide leadership." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Can the minister then assure the House, which is, I suppose, inherent in what he has said, that no decision will be made until the facts are available publicly to the members of the House and otherwise; and also until public hearings have been held, so that the people directly concerned can express their views?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "He won’t give that assurance." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Yes, give us that." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have said in the past, and I repeat, that the position of the government will be made very clear to this House and at that time the reports that we have will be tabled.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well, by way of supplementary, what the minister is saying then, if I understand him, is that he may well announce a decision to go ahead -- that is one of his options -- which means game over. Then he’ll set up an apparatus for the public to talk about those things that are already accomplished. Does the minister think that’s an appropriate public route?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "What is the leader of the NDP afraid of?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "That’s like the airport." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "That’s participation, yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Is that called participation?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, we will take the direction that we think is in the best interest of the province. I have clearly --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "I have clearly indicated there are three options.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Obviously, Mr. Speaker, the leader of the NDP wishes to accept only one of the three options. But if he read the Globe and Mail article of this morning, he’d see there are three very clear options available to him.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I understand that." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "One of those likely will be decided on this week and this House will be informed of the direction we are going to take." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Why do we have to read it in the Globe? Why doesn’t the minister tell us?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Leader of the Opposition?", "The hon. member for Scarborough West, a new question?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A question of the Premier, Mr. Speaker: Is the Premier aware that the total amount represented by a one-cent-per-gallon increase in Ontario for gasoline, diesel and heating fuels works out to $46.4 millions, and if the additional 2½ cents is placed by the oil companies in their price increases within the next month to six weeks, that means an additional $116 million for those companies; roughly $14.50 for every man, woman and child in the province? And how, in the light of that, does he refuse to intervene and say: “No, we will abide by the agreement -- “" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. Haggerty (Welland South)", "text": [ "He just is not concerned." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "“ -- that I entered into at the premiers’ conference, but we will not allow the oil companies to increase it beyond that”? Why can he not give that commitment?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. G. Davis (Premier)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, we get back to the same discussion, which is not just confined to the question of gasoline price, oil price or any other price, or wage escalation. The position of the government is, I think, relatively clearly understood, and I don’t want to get into any sort of provocative statement here today." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Laissez-faire." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "But it’s fine for the leader of the New Democratic Party to come in here and talk about gasoline -- we are concerned about gasoline price. Whether the figures are accurate or inaccurate is not relevant.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Obviously, if the price goes up another penny per gallon, it means one cent per gallon to the consumer -- no question about that; no argument." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)", "text": [ "At least, at least." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "As I said yesterday, our calculations were on the basis of the price of a crude oil increase; it would be roughly seven cents." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Right." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Whether the gas companies will impose a further price increase related to other costs time alone will tell. I say this, and I don’t want to be provocative, but while we are very interested -- far more interested than I sometimes think the opposition people are --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "-- in curbing inflation in this province, no provincial jurisdiction can do it in isolation. If the NDP is really serious about it, why, for Heaven’s sake, doesn’t the party do something about it on a national level? Because that’s where the problem has to be solved -- has to be.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "We want the same price all across Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "That is quite right.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "But the government doesn’t.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Yes, I am being -- some of the rump group is asking me to be non-provocative which is my nature anyway so I will put it as placidly as I can -- what is he saying as Premier of Ontario? As I hear him, he is saying that if the oil companies -- as already announced even by Donald McDonald in Ottawa -- indicate that the total increase to the consumer will be 10 cents and the amount the Premier and his Minister of Energy agreed to enter into was seven cents and, let us say, a half cent more for non-related costs, he is going to allow them that extra 2½ cents per gal, $116 million to the consumers of Ontario, without ever once intervening to protect the public interest because of this peculiar fetish he has for the free enterprise rights of big corporations." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. P. J. Yakabuski (Renfrew South)", "text": [ "Nonsense. Absolute nonsense." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Why not?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, once again I will try to be very placid, as is my nature as well --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "I wish he would be active." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Let him try for modesty for a change." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "That is his nature, too." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I am very modest." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "He has reason to be.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I agree with the member for Sarnia. I have reason to be modest but at least I acknowledge it. If some of the members opposite would do the same thing we’d be a lot better off.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I know the member for Sarnia is about ready to paraphrase Churchill -- I think he is the wrong one to start doing so; he doesn’t quite have the knack. However, getting back to the question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "I don’t steal anybody’s spiel." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "No, he doesn’t." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Except the Premier’s once in a while." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Yes, he has borrowed some of mine on occasion." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Don’t let him get sidetracked. That means he has no answer to this question." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "No, I don’t say we have no answer to the problem." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "He has no action." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Except to make the general observation that when one talks about the gasoline price -- and we are as concerned as anyone about the price of gasoline -- we are also concerned about the prices of a lot of other consumer products. If we are going to get into this -- and perhaps we should in the budget debate have a discussion of --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "We should." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "-- what jurisdiction a province has in the area --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "No, the Premier doesn’t need to confuse the issue." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "-- of wage and price control. One can’t divorce the one from the other.", "Interjections by Hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "No, one can’t.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "One can’t divorce one from the other." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Don’t muddy the waters. We are dealing with corporate profits." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I think, Mr. Speaker, I can be very frank. We are not prepared at this moment at the provincial level to get into a programme of general wage and price controls. It’s as simple as that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Right. So he welcomes the oil companies. He has --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "This is calculated obfuscation." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "What has their national leader been doing for two months?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Would the Premier consider adjusting the gasoline tax on a regional basis so that those people who would otherwise be hardest hit, particularly in the north and certain other areas, would not have to carry such an unfair share of the burden of these increased costs about which the Premier said he can do nothing?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "He can’t say he has no jurisdiction for that." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "There are two issues here. One is the overall cost of gasoline, diesel or heating fuel related to whatever the wellhead prices are and whatever the cost is of refining the product. What the Leader of the Opposition is referring to is the possibility of a programme for equalization of whatever that price may be around the Province of Ontario which we have discussed here." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "That is right. What about that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "This government is not unsympathetic but one has to have a degree of equity and the problem of equalizing prices between the various regions of the province is not a simple issue to resolve.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "We are not opposed to the concept. We have done it in some areas." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "But he is opposed to doing anything about it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "At the same time, Mr. Speaker, one can’t artificially say the price will be less than it is now in northern Ontario without accepting the fact that people in southern Ontario in one way or another, are going to pay a portion of that equalization." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "No, the government just controls the oil companies. That’s not true." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "What I said is true. It’s the only way one can do it.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "That’s right -- and so there is." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "The government has done it on liquor. Eaton’s and Simpson’s do it all the time, but the government can’t." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "There have been about three or four supplementaries. I will permit one more supplementary, and I think it should be the turn of the Liberal Party." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, do I gather from the Premier’s remarks that inflation is universal, that there is nothing that can be done about it except wage and price controls and that Ontario will not enter into wage and price controls and that is the end? Is nothing going to be done by the Province of Ontario to help those people on fixed incomes or pensions, other than saying it is universal and we don’t want wage and price controls?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "There will be a tax credit in the budget." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I don’t think I said that at all. In fact, if anything, I think I may have created the impression to the contrary. There are two aspects to the problem -- and I don’t want to become an economist again --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "He never has been one!" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Well, I tried the other day. One is the question of inflation; the other is what we can do to ease the problem of inflation as it affects certain groups of people." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Right." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "But, Mr. Speaker, I think that we have to differentiate between the two.", "The hon. member for Downsview asked me what we can do as a government with respect to the overall problem of inflation. I am telling him that we have been doing something, which the members opposite are not supporting --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "That’s right. Throw your hands up.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, order.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please. Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I will quote the hon. member for High Park: “There is no question that the level of government expenditure has an impact on inflation.” But I will say, as I said here the other day --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "And this government’s expenditures have gone up more than any other in the country." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "-- that this government, with its programme of constraints, including ceilings on educational expenditures, has an anti-inflationary approach. If the members opposite weren’t so hypocritical, they would support it." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "And they know it’s true!", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "It’s a good thing the government members waken up between 3 and 4 o’clock." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order. There have been a reasonable number of supplementaries." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "In the choice between protecting the oil companies and protecting the public, the government chooses the oil companies. They have made that choice." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "That is not true." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Stephen, you know it is not true." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I do know it is true. And don’t call me Stephen, William.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "You’re lucky I don’t call you something else." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Never mind. You won’t seduce me on a first-name basis, I’ll tell you." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Don’t you make comments on David’s bed partners when you think of those with whom you consort.", "Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Minister of Agriculture and Food --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Yes, you may." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Thank you. What is the Minister of Agriculture and Food going to do about protecting the greenhouse growers in southwestern Ontario in particular, against the increase in fuel prices that is now imminent because of the Texaco announcement that the price of fuel for the greenhouse operators would go to 26 cents per gallon, which is double what it was in 1972? Is there anything that the province can do to prevent the greenhouse growers of southwestern Ontario spending up to half their total income on fuel costs?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. A. Stewart (Minister of Agriculture and Food)", "text": [ "Well, in the first place, Mr. Speaker, the greenhouse growers of western Ontario, as I understand it, have been assured there will be no increase in those fuel prices for about a month." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "No, they haven’t been assured. They haven’t been assured!" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "Well, we have been assured." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Oh, a month. Excuse me." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "For a month.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Everybody is assured of that." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "So that means, as I’m sure my hon. friend is well aware, that there will be very little requirement for the use of fuels for heating greenhouses after May 1." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Didn’t the member know that? Didn’t he know that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "I would think he would be aware of it. Some behind him might not be aware of it, but I am sure the hon. member would be aware of it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I am. What about next year?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would also suggest that because of the type and variety of cucumbers that our greenhouse growers are growing -- and that is really the problem of concern at this time -- they are of such a type that they command a premium in the market today and are selling, not at what I would say are exorbitant prices at all but at prices I think reflect more accurately the cost of production and a more reasonable return than has ever been the case before." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Ruston (Essex-Kent)", "text": [ "The NDP wants to stop all that." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "Now I don’t think that our friends would want to see them take less for their product. I believe that it is sufficiently rewarding to help offset some of the admittedly increased costs we have today." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. J. Bounsall (Windsor West)", "text": [ "Not if the minister lets the imports in." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Does the hon. member for Scarborough West have further questions?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well, yes and no." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have one." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I should inform the hon. members that I have just received an anonymous letter.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "It says: “Mr. Speaker, you have lost control.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "I didn’t send that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Ottawa East." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "If I might, Mr. Speaker --" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Who introduced that obscene literature into the House?" ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, if I might ask a question of the Ministry of Industry and Tourism: Some time ago the ministry had an advertisement in the US, which he had to withdraw because of bad taste since it was taking advantage of their gas shortage --" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Would the minister advise us if he reprimanded this firm for giving the ministry bad advice -- that is the advertising firm? Secondly, seeing the ministry had no contract with them in any event, did he get rid of their services?" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "What is the minister doing about this matter?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Is the minister not going to answer that? Is he going to sit there and suck his thumb?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I can assure you, if I answered by sucking my thumb, sir, the member who asked the question would be right at home because the question is just about that intelligent. His leader asked just about the same question on Friday and if the member for Ottawa East had been present he might have heard the answer." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "No; it was a different thing and the minister reprimanded him." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "I said very clearly on Friday that on the advice of the federal government to us we withdrew the part of the ad that seemed to be offensive to them. The firm that gave us the advice, sir, was ourselves, because we believe that it was in the interest of the province to put this information before our friends coming to the Province of Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "You could give them both a pacifier, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "We have an advertising agency that does an excellent job for us. They gave us advice and we accepted it. We sat down and reviewed it, and we are still of the belief that it could do some good for the Province of Ontario. Now that the petroleum situation seems to have rectified itself to some degree in the United States, the ad seems to be well withdrawn.", "May I also say, Mr. Speaker, that as a result of the CBC and a few others objecting to the advertising, we have now secured more free publicity right across this continent as a result of the withdrawal; so the advertising message that we were paying to put forward, sir, is now being publicized as a courtesy of the shareholders of the various news medias." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, can I ask just one quick supplementary?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Has the minister applauded his advertising agency?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Could the minister advise how much money was wasted because of this mistake?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "None, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Supplementary?" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "No, it was a question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "A new question should go to the hon. member for Sandwich-Riverside." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. F. A. Burr (Sandwich-Riverside)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a question of the Minister of Energy about the very important seminar on wind energy which is to be held next month in Quebec: Has the minister yet been able to secure permission from the Management Board to leave the province for a day, or to send some advisers or engineers to attend this convention?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "The minister is afraid he may have too much wind." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "The matter has not yet been decided." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Premier: Could the Premier advise us whether or not the meeting planned on April 5 next with certain selected members of the press, which will be a private meeting and which is described by one McPhee as being a frank and two-way discussion of problems concerning coverage of provincial government activities, is really another way of saying that the Premier is trying to manage the news because the papers haven’t been too kind to him and his government." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "It is another version of “Laugh In.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Well Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Kitchener would know far more about that than I would." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "I watch it every day." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I am sure he does and if he spent more time, perhaps, studying what he should be saying on the budget, he might perhaps make a better contribution there later on. It will be an interesting one for the member to tackle." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "In the meantime, back to the news." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I think I am the last one who can be accused of ever attempting to manage the news." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I think that is right, if he does try he does very badly at it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I don’t make the effort, unlike the leader of the New Democratic Party. I make no effort in that at all.", "I would say that I am looking forward to discussion with the managing editors of a number of newspapers. It has been suggested by two or three of them that it would make sense, and I expect that I will learn something from that particular meeting." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "This is an effort to repair the image of the government, and it desperately needs it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "By way of supplementary, does the Premier not think that he should have a little chat with James McPhee and tell him that if he is giving interviews they should appear a little less damaging and not give the appearance that the government is trying to manage the news?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. D. R. Timbrell (Minister Without Portfolio)", "text": [ "The member’s question is quite irrelevant." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am not in a position to comment on any interviews given by Mr. McPhee. In my humble opinion he has given no interview that is at all damaging to anyone." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "It is certainly damaging over there." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Well, not at all." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon member for Yorkview." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Is he on the Premier’s personal staff?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Timbrell", "text": [ "I really don’t know what the relevance is of the question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "That’s what the Premier hired him for." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "The great new wave!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "What did the member’s party hire Phil Ross for?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please I", "Interjections by hon. members." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. F. Young (Yorkview)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, if I could direct a question to the Minister of Energy, I’m sure he and I could discuss in a quiet, reasonable way one phase of this energy problem.", "I would like to ask the minister, in view of certain rumours that oil companies have very large stocks of heating oil now in inventory which might take them through the next six months or so, is he planning to acquire from the oil companies a list of their inventories, which will be used in the Province of Ontario, so that he might think in terms of how the increasing value of those inventories might be applied to the benefit of the people rather than of the corporations?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the stocks of heating oil are high because they were not used this winter because we had such a mild winter. But I doubt very much --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. M. Johnston (St. Catharines)", "text": [ "The sun shines on Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "-- if there’s anything like six months’ stock. There simply isn’t. I think that’s one of the problems with the industry and I don’t know the solution to the problem. There aren’t storage facilities. The time from wellhead to either the automobile tank or to the consumer’s heating oil tank is something in the neighbourhood of 45 to 60 days -- 45 on the average. If somebody did go out to buy heating oil today, Lord knows where they would store it, there simply isn’t that kind of storage.", "Storage is very expensive, very difficult to build and is normally considered, I think, to be poor economics and counterproductive. Ideally, you get it from the wellhead through the refinery to the consumer as quickly as you can. There simply isn’t that kind of storage available. This may well manifest itself in some marginal shortages, although we’re hopeful there won’t be gasoline shortages. They will be marginal shortages, if any, and perhaps there will be none this spring, because heating oil was carried on for a longer period and is in storage and wasn’t used." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for York Centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. M. Deacon (York Centre)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Transportation and Communications." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "I have a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Well, if the hon. members would say supplementary so that I could hear it, then we would recognize them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Let the member for York South speak up. He hasn’t had enough experience around here!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Is the minister in a position to give us an independent assessment of reserves in this instance and otherwise, instead of accepting the self-serving provision of statistics which has characterized the petroleum industry down through the years?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, no, I am not. I am prepared to accept -- not the self-serving interest-but the views put forward from time to time and the statistics gathered and evaluated by some 300 or 400 people at the National Energy Board who are in that business and who interpret the statistics." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Don’t they get them from the oil companies?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "We have no intention of duplicating that kind of information gathering or statistics analysis in this province or in my ministry." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "I recognize that the hon. member would like to expand the bureaucracy and have information directors everywhere.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Supplementary question: Does the Energy Board in Ottawa, whose services the minister is willing to accept, get their statistics by their own analysis and their own investigation, or do they accept those of the industry?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "Never mind the red herrings." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "The hon. member would employ, I suppose, the RCMP and go out and search everybody and collect statistics --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Answer my question." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "-- because he doesn’t believe anything except what he wants to believe. Well, we’re not built that way over here.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "He won’t answer my question because the minister knows they get them from the industry." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well, since the minister is the Minister of Energy and has all of these figures, how would he like to tell the House what the current inventory of home heating fuel is in the Province of Ontario?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "I don’t have those figures with me, Mr. Speaker. They are available." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Where?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "They’re available from the National Energy Board and we are led to believe that the country presently is in good shape." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "This is the Province of Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "Perhaps the hon. member would be perceptive enough to realize that we’ve had a mild winter." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Let the minister get the figures." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Yorkview." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Young", "text": [ "A final supplementary: Could I ask the minister if he will table those figures in this House within the next couple of days?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The inventory figures." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Young", "text": [ "The inventory figures." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "We’ll try and get them for the member, yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Now, the hon, member for York Centre." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "I have a question of the Minister of Transportation and Communications. In order to make better use of an already proven mode of public transportation by increasing its flexibility, will the minister instruct GO Transit to arrange for the interchangeability of commuter tickets on common routes with CN and CP so that commuters can either use the trains or the GO buses with their monthly commuter passes?" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Good point." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, we’ll have to look into that proposal. I’ll be glad to receive it from him." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "The minister doesn’t understand the question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "A supplementary: Will the minister arrange to confer with the chairman of the railway transport committee, who is very anxious that this type of interchangeability be brought about?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "The office is always open to meet with anybody who would like to meet with us. My door is open." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Wentworth." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Community and Social Services. Is the minister aware that the funding for information services expired at the end of March? Notwithstanding the statement of his colleague the provincial secretary, is the minister prepared to say categorically that he will, or will not, continue to fund information services groups across the Province of Ontario? If he’s not going to, how does he propose that this very valuable service be continued in areas like Hamilton?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. R. Brunelle (Minister of Community and Social Services)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, we have been funding somewhere around 15 information services on an interim basis. If the hon. member will give me the names of those that he’s inquiring about we will be pleased to look into it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Is the minister aware that the interim financing ended at the end of March? That was the day before yesterday.", "Is the minister aware that in spite of the best efforts of the group involved in the Hamilton area to get information with regard to either further interim or permanent financing, they have come against a brick wall? And is the minister aware that their service will be discontinued as of the end of this month unless there is a clear indication from the government of its intention?", "Lastly, is the minister aware that he has been procrastinating on financing in this field for the last three years and it’s time to make it clear where he stands with regard to information services across the province?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, our policy will be announced in due course." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "A supplementary, Mr. Speaker --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "-- what is the purpose of due course? How do they carry on beyond the end of April?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please. There are just a very few moments left. Two or three of the other members would like to get a question in. Perhaps we could restrain the supplementaries." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "How does that help?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Lanark." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "The money has run out." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. D. J. Wiseman (Lanark)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Agriculture and Food. Is it true, as I have heard, that the crop insurance people are considering dropping the planting date in eastern Ontario or across the province and, if so, when will our farmers know about it and by what media?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "I will have to take the question as notice, Mr. Speaker. I haven’t heard anything about it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. the Solicitor General has the answer to a question asked previously." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. G. A. Kerr (Solicitor General)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on Friday, March 29 last, the member for High Park asked a two-part question concerning the Ministry of the Solicitor General’s co-operation with American police authorities in the investigation of the death of one Harvey Leach in Michigan and the steps being taken concerning any problem of the washing, or laundering of criminal funds in Toronto.", "The Ontario Provincial Police were asked by the Southfield, Mich., police department for assistance in investigating the death of Harvey Leach in Southfield. Investigation continues and the Ontario Provincial Police will continue to co-operate as they always do in such cases.", "The washing, or laundering of funds does occur in Toronto. What this expression means, simply put, is that money is transferred from one point to another in order to hide the identity of its source. This could be from one province to another or from one country to another. It is sometimes simply from one business or account to another. The term laundering is used when the transfers are made to hide a criminal source of the funds. However, such transfers are sometimes made for the purpose of evading taxes on funds earned from quite legitimate businesses or, on occasion, such transfers are made to conceal business information for competitive reasons.", "Toronto is a sophisticated financial market of international scale. For this reason it is an attractive place for persons wishing to make such financial transfers. It should be remembered that the laundering transaction itself is not illegal. Generally speaking, it is impossible to identify organized crime money which may be washed or laundered in Canada and then returned to the United States as clean money or invested in legitimate Canadian or foreign enterprises.", "It should be borne in mind that cash or bank funds are, by their nature, anonymous in themselves. To trace a laundering operation we must first identify the source of the funds and then prove that this money represented the proceeds of criminal activity. We may well be suspicious of a particular financial transaction but to prove that the funds involved were the proceeds of an illegal activity is extremely difficult, indeed almost impossible." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Who wrote that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "Presumably if the criminal activity which yielded the revenue were clearly identifiable the appropriate authorities in the jurisdiction involved would have ended the operation, making the subsequent laundering and financial transaction impossible." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Are they still washing by hand?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "As members know the OPP and other law enforcement agencies continuously investigate suspicious activities of this kind where an illegal activity can be positively identified as such." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "That’s the trouble." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "The appropriate charges are laid and the matter is dealt with in the courts." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "One brief supplementary, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "There are about 30 seconds remaining." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "If it is true, as the minister says, that laundering of illegal money is not illegal in this province would he consider bringing in legislation to make it illegal?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "If the hon. member would consider drafting legislation of that kind I would be happy to consider it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "That was a short 30 seconds. I’ll permit the hon. member for Waterloo North." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. E. R. Good (Waterloo North)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a question of the Premier. Would the Premier comment on the statement by Mr. Shabera on W5 Sunday night, who stated that if there were 10,000 serviced building lots available in Metro Toronto it would bring the price of lots down by $10,000 to $25,000? What is he going to do? In view of the fact that this opinion is held by many people across the Province of Ontario what is he going to do to provide more serviced building lots in the areas of the province where there is an emergency situation? In case I don’t get my supplementary in, Mr. Speaker, this is it: Mr. Shabera stated that friends of the government --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "That is not a question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "-- and supporters of the government would not allow this to happen. Does the Premier agree that friends and supporters of the government would not allow this to happen because the values of buildings would go down below the mortgages presently on them?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "This will have to be a short answer." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, in that I didn’t have the pleasure of seeing Mr. Shabera and really am only familiar with what the hon. member has said here, I will read very carefully what he has said. I don’t want to presume to extend the question period and I or the Minister of Housing (Mr. Handleman) perhaps will have a fairly lengthy answer for him on Thursday." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Does the government have any friends left?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "That completes the question period." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I will find out how many." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "I look forward to that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Petitions.", "Presenting reports.", "Mr. Morrow from the standing procedural affairs committee, presented the committee’s report which was read as follows and adopted:", "“Your committee has carefully examined the following applications for private Acts and finds the notices, as published in each case, sufficient.", "“ -- Waterloo-Wellington Airport;", "“ -- City of Chatham;", "“ -- Savings and Investment Trust;", "“ -- Lake of the Woods District Hospital;", "“ -- Town of Oakville;", "“ -- Presbyterian Church Building Corp.;", "“ -- City of Windsor;", "“ -- City of Toronto (No. 2);", "“ -- City of London.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Motions.", "Introduction of bills." ] } ]

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[ { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Orders of the day." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Waterloo North." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. R. Good (Waterloo North)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, this bill deals with many of the regional governments and it is legislation that should have been put into the regional government bills, which I presume was overlooked and forgotten, and consequently I will just deal with it generally, taking them all together rather than individually.", "As you are aware, Mr. Speaker, when a municipality passes certain bylaws, approval of those bylaws is required from some external body, a minister of the Crown or a provincial ministry, the Ontario Municipal Board, or a provincial body or agency. In some instances, during the process of waiting for approval from the external body these municipalities have ceased to exist and have become part of a regional government.", "I suppose, then, that when the regional government has been formed, provision to allow these procedures to continue had not been made previously and the amendments to these various regional governments will permit this to happen. So we would find that if a municipality had passed a zoning bylaw which required approval of the ministry, and during that approval stage that municipality went into a regional government and ceased to exist in its present form or continued to exist in an alternate area government form within the regional government, the bylaw would not legally apply to the new government, because it probably would have been made out in a different municipality’s name and would not become legal when it was given approval by the external body.", "This amendment, Mr. Speaker, will allow the same bylaws that were awaiting approval by the external body to become law in the new jurisdiction in which that municipality finds itself after the coming in of regional government. There is one interesting case in existence which this legislation pertains to very vividly. If you will remember, Mr. Speaker, Metropolitan Toronto had purchased a considerable amount of land in Pickering township -- 600 acres originally, and eventually about 1,300 acres -- and had applied for zoning changes on the land and had also applied to the Ministry of the Environment for a licence to establish a landfill site in this particular area.", "The OMB hearing on the zoning change started and stopped because of the fact that the OMB realized that what was their use of allowing the zone change when at that point in time there had not been an Environmental Hearing Board decision on the establishment of the landfill site; neither had there been, of course, a licence issued by the Ministry of the Environment. So the Ontario Municipal Board proceeding stopped some time last year and as yet has not been proceeded with, because of the fact that the minister’s decision for licensing that particular area has not been made.", "The Environmental Hearing Board in that particular case did recommend to the minister that certain portions of the 1,300 acres, that is, the southerly portion known as the -- I am sorry, I have forgotten the name -- the southern part of the part that was asked for, has been recommended to get a licence. So in the meantime, if the minister does decide to license that area, there will still have to be the OMB hearing to decide whether the land should be rezoned for landfill sites. So I can see that this legislation is of utmost importance to the Metropolitan Toronto area in order to get their landfill sites completed.", "We in this party have very definite views on this. And while we support the passage of this legislation, which wall allow these bylaws to continue through their normal process for approval by an external body, we want to go on record once again as supporting the position that only enough land should be permitted to be developed for landfill sites that will tide Metropolitan Toronto over until there is a more satisfactory solution to the subject, which of course is reclamation and recycling and the use of garbage for steam.", "Mr. Speaker, we will support the amendments on that basis, hoping that the Minister of the Environment will act prudently when he is permitted by this legislation to issue a licence and that the OMB will also act prudently when they decide whether or not to allow the rezoning bylaws to proceed in Pickering township." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The member for Ottawa Centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)", "text": [ "I just have a couple of comments about the bill, Mr. Speaker.", "We are going to support the bill as well. I think that when the various regional municipalities were legislated into existence, whatever our feelings about those particular bills in general, we had always assumed that any bylaws from the preceding municipalities that were dissolved or whose boundaries were changed by legislation would automatically continue and that the same would be true for any proceedings that were currently under way before various boards, commissions, agencies or ministries of the government.", "Effectively, as the member for Waterloo North has indicated, the purpose of this bill is simply to permit Pickering’s application before the OMB for the garbage site, which Metro Toronto wants to go forward, after the restructuring of Pickering in the new regional municipality of Durham. If you will permit me, Mr. Speaker, I just want to make one or two comments about that, because while we support this and we feel that whatever the merits of Pickering township’s decision, they have made their decision, it has been approved now by the Environmental Hearing Board and should go forward.", "I think that the incentives that are still available to large municipalities like Metro Toronto and, for that matter, the regional municipality of Ottawa-Carleton, to go dashing across the countryside looking for landfill sites out in the surrounding rural areas, are still tremendously high.", "A few years ago it was simply a matter of going and finding a site, talking to a local reeve or two and then going ahead with the plan. More recently it has also been a matter of persuading the Environmental Hearing Board and the Ministry of the Environment that it was all right. But that is all.", "For example, when the CPR went dashing around looking for another site for Metro Toronto, we saw that there was no real gain for the local township involved, apart from very small amounts of taxes and so on. In fact, therefore, the economic system is not working effectively to encourage municipalities like Toronto to do what they should, which is to process their landfill themselves, as the city of Toronto has recently proposed.", "Mr. Speaker, what I am saying, in other words, is that for a party and a government that believe in using the market, there may be an instance here where, they could usefully -- and with the agreement of this party -- find some application of the market system.", "If Metro Toronto had to pay Pickering, in addition to the costs of the applications to the OMB and the Environmental Hearing Board -- if it had to pay Pickering not just the cost of the land plus some local taxes at a very low rate, but if there was in effect a royalty on garbage that was taken out of Metro Toronto’s boundaries, one can imagine that there would be a tremendously increased incentive to Metro Toronto to accelerate its experiments and projects in order to process and deal with and dispose of and recycle its garbage within Metro Toronto’s boundaries rather than taking it outside. There would be a greater incentive to find landfill sites which could be used within the boundaries of Metro Toronto rather than taking the garbage outside.", "However, Mr. Speaker, right now there is not that incentive. Therefore, since nobody particularly wants the garbage, what happens is that these municipalities simply continue to look wherever there is the least resistance -- in a local neighbouring municipality, some township, or some sparsely populated area. I think there even was the suggestion once that the garbage be put on a train and be sent up to northern Ontario, and since northern Ontario had been getting the garbage from Toronto for many, many years why that was nothing new to them.", "Mr. Speaker, I think it would be useful if the ministry would indicate what other applications there are for this particular bill besides the application that has been mentioned already, which is these garbage applications in Pickering township. That would be useful when we get to that part of the debate." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Ottawa East." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. A. J. Roy (Ottawa East)", "text": [ "Just one brief question to the minister, Mr. Speaker. I noticed in a cursory review of the bill that the region of Niagara is not included in this bill. Could the minister give some explanation as to why that is the case?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Any further members wish to speak to this bill?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would just like to inquire of the minister who is bringing the bill forward if he is able to give us some additional examples of other particular areas of legislation that are involved beyond those of the landfill sites, which I think are the most particular items that are being stressed under this legislation. I presume there were other areas -- and they could be, indeed, very broad and general -- in which certain municipalities may have had bylaws under way but which were cut off at the time of the amalgamation into regional municipalities. I realize, of course, that the landfill sites are the greatest particular area, but I am just asking the minister, really, since there is no real principle otherwise to be debated, if he can advise us of any other particular concerns that this bill is intending to remedy?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Any other hon. members wish to speak to this bill?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)", "text": [ "Obviously the principle of this bill will receive support from around the Legislature. It was prompted, I think -- spawned, I think -- by the confusion in a number of regional municipalities, but particularly triggered by the landfill reference that has already been made.", "What is implicit in this is the irony that the passage of this bill to give effect to the bylaws that existed prior to regional government may well result in the Ontario Municipal Board hearing the application for the Pickering site and then approving that application, since the Environmental Hearing Board has already approved it and since the Ministry of the Environment has given it its certificate of approval. So, Mr. Speaker, in coming before the Legislature this bill should have some kind of ministerial guarantee that the immediate use of the bill will not be to turn more of Pickering into a major sanitary landfill operation.", "That is the paradox of this legislation. Inherently it makes sense. Paradoxically its initial use will be to take 1,300 acres of land in Pickering township and try to turn them into a sanitary landfill area.", "Mr. Speaker, as the hon. members know, the so-called Liverpool site has been affirmed without qualification by the Environmental Hearing Board. The Brock south and Brock north sites have been approved with certain technical qualifications, and Brock north is partly contingent on the question of the airport and the effect that birds around the Brock north site may have. But the Liverpool site itself will provide enough sanitary landfill disposal for the Metropolitan Toronto area for the next three to five years.", "So it would really come back as a piece of irony were this bill to be passed in the House, given royal assent, and then rushed into use to provide OMB approval for Brock south and Brock north and do exactly what every member of the government alleges he doesn’t want to do, which is to deter the development of recycling and reclamation by encouraging sanitary landfill in Pickering township.", "I say to the minister responsible -- and he will say to me it is not his authority, I suppose -- in his reply, since we talk enough about generalities in this House, he might talk about the specific reality of how this bill will be used immediately, and give some kind of understanding to the Legislature that the Minister of the Environment (Mr. W. Newman) or the cabinet will step in to prevent Pickering township from becoming a sophisticated garbage landfill area and to prevent it from being turned over to that kind of usage and to allow no more than the Liverpool site to be thus exploited. It is a small matter perhaps but absolutely central to the question of social priorities in Ontario about recycling, reclamation, recovery of energy-producing goods and services. I think that’s probably a legitimate fact to introduce on second reading in principle. I do so in the hope that the minister may carry it back to some of his colleagues and perhaps make comment on it himself." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Are there any further speakers to this bill? If not, the hon. minister." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. D. R. Irvine (Minister without Portfolio)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the intent of the bill, as was stated previously, is to proceed with any bylaws which haven’t obtained approval. We didn’t specifically leave out Niagara. We felt Niagara was covered by the Act we have now in force; we also felt that the regional bills covered the intent of this particular amendment at the present time.", "However, some of the regions we have recently created have been in the process of some discussions with solicitors as to the legal intent of the regional Acts. What we are doing by way of this legislation is supplementing the regional Acts and not in any way whatsoever applying it only to the regional municipality of Durham or to Pickering township, as has been mentioned by a couple of the hon. members. This is to apply to all bylaws which had been processed up to a certain point but hadn’t received final approval, as the member for Waterloo North said. I think he has interpreted it quite correctly; we feel that the area municipalities must have this authority. We felt they did have it.", "However, we are bringing this forth so as not to have the cost of having the bills debated in court. We feel it is in the best interests not only of the people in the area but also of all solicitors to make sure there isn’t any doubt as to why and how the regions may proceed with bylaws.", "Motion agreed to; second reading of the bill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Shall this bill be ordered for third reading?", "Agreed." ] }, { "speaker": "Clerk of the House", "text": [ "The second order, resuming the adjourned debate on the amendment to the amendment to be motion for an address in reply to the speech of the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor at the opening of the session." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The member for Ottawa Centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)", "text": [ "Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I wanted to thank the member for Simcoe Centre (Mr. Evans) for his letter, which arrived on my desk today in response to a lengthy letter I had sent to Hydro, to the Minister of Agriculture and Food (Mr. Stewart), and a number of members of cabinet. As I mentioned yesterday, the members of cabinet to a man sent the letter to the member for Simcoe Centre and told him to bail them out. He has given me a letter which is helpful in a number of respects. I thank him for that.", "Perhaps it is predictable that it doesn’t answer all the questions which I had raised, and I am going to take issue with two points in the letter. Before doing so, though, I want to make it clear that as far as the member’s intervention in this is concerned, I am doing this in a good spirit and not in an attempt to nit-pick, point by point.", "The first major area in the letter relates to the questions of alternative means of controlling or living with erosion on the 10-mile stretch of the Madawaska River above the Arnprior dam. I had stated in my letter that, according to information I had seen from Hydro reports, there were a number of alternatives, costing between $1 million and $8 million, to buy up easements, to buy up the shoreline, to build control weirs, to build a control dam and so on. The member states he was informed that these measures had been considered by Hydro engineering and geologists during their study of means of controlling the bank erosion and stability problems, and later by the consultant, and that each was rejected as unacceptable or ineffective. He goes on to state, for example, that the acquisition of easements or buying of the river banks was difficult and was rejected on the grounds of safety and environmental consequences. I quote: “It is very difficult to predict the extent of consequences of future instabilities in steep marine clay banks which are subject to unbalanced forces, but there are hazards both locally and downstream of a landslide.” Mr. Speaker, by themselves those may be valid points, but one of the fundamental questions about this whole Arnprior dam is that, faced with a project that was on the face of it grossly uneconomic, there were never any adequate studies that I have yet seen or had drawn to my attention, to indicate that Hydro really did look into the alternatives with the kind of depth that one would wish.", "These studies should have included hydrological studies; a log of the level of the river water during the various times that it was in use; a log of the rate of erosion prior to 1969; a record of the remedial measures that were experimented with by Hydro subsequent to 1969, when the river began this peaking action, in order to curb erosion; a comparison of the rate of natural erosion and any additional erosion that may have been created by the fluctuations in river levels caused by Hydro; a study of the erosion on the river that was apparently created over the previous 20 years, when the level of the river varied by two feet a day because of Hydro’s operation of the plant for 10 hours a day; and an evaluation of the public’s aesthetic response to leaving the river valley as it stood with some erosion as opposed to obliterating a very beautiful river valley and creating a flat lake surrounded by flat terrain without trees, without features and virtually unusable for cottages.", "Those are all questions that, in fact, I raised at a meeting with Hydro some time ago, and I have been unable to get any answers to those questions. It appears that those kinds of studies were not made. I wanted to know and I haven’t found out whether Hydro had ever built a major dam to control erosion before; and if not then why this particular time? I wanted to know the log of the complaints, because the only record that I could find from Hydro itself indicated that only three or four complainants had contacted Hydro from the area to be flooded, from the area to be protected from erosion, and that they were cottagers who were quickly and expeditiously bought out. I wanted to see some more documentary evidence about the erosion.", "This is a very curious thing. The member for Simcoe Centre quite rightly raises the point that Hydro had rejected alternatives, such as those that I’ve been discussing, as unacceptable or ineffective. But he and the Hydro people who work for the commission have not provided the kind of satisfying evidence that one would look for as a normal kind of operation in a corporation as big and presumably as competent as one expects Hydro to be.", "We have a project on which the engineering fees are running anywhere between $10 million and $20 million -- I apologize that I can’t remember what the figure was, I believe it was $12 million -- and yet there’s no evidence that maybe half a million dollars, if that was what was required, was spent in order to make a detailed study of all of the alternatives. The study of alternatives that I’ve seen, Mr. Speaker, seems to indicate that it was done in-house by people down here, and that they were simply playing around with figures on the back of envelopes rather than getting up there looking at the site in detail. The on-site investigations have been admitted in a number of reports by Hydro to have been very limited and to have been mainly confined to whether the banks of the reservoir would in fact contain the water, and whether there were adequate foundations for the dam.", "That’s fundamental to the whole question, because if Hydro had done an exhaustive and definitive study to show there was nothing else that could be done than build the dam, then clearly the Legislature wouldn’t be listening to me for two or three hours. Hydro would have had the evidence. They would have brought it out when the farmers started to object. They would have sat down, months if not years ago, to discuss adequate compensation with the farmers; and everybody would have quickly agreed that there was no other course than to build this wretched dam. But Hydro has yet to provide that convincing evidence and I would contend, Mr. Speaker, that’s because that convincing evidence simply isn’t there.", "The second point on which I want to take issue with the people who presumably prepared this letter in conjunction with the member for Simcoe Centre, that is with Hydro direction, is on economics. In this letter of March 29, the member for Simcoe Centre states, and this is the first time that it’s stated: “Look, if we looked at fuel costs today with the rising escalation since last fall, in fact the Arnprior project considered on its own would be an economic source of peaking power; and in fact it would be about 30 per cent more economic than any alternative, which would be an addition to a large thermal or coal-fired plant.” That’s the first time that allegation has been made. It is not supported by any kind of working papers or other studies. I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that here too Hydro has yet to provide any convincing evidence that the peaking power at the Arnprior plant was: (a) required; and (b) that it is really economic.", "In fact taking from this particular document, I would note that, for example, the member for Simcoe Centre bases the comparison with coal-fired generation on the basis of $1 per 100,000 btu’s, which is 50 per cent higher than the price that Hydro has been using as the cost of US coal delivered into Ontario as recently as December, 1973. That is after those major escalations and at the time Hydro was committing, for 30 years the production of that new and large plant. This is Alberta coal, but obviously if American coal is available more cheaply you would compare it against that.", "The questions that need to be asked as far as this is concerned, Mr. Speaker, are: First, during the decade of the 1960s Hydro had, on average, no more than about 10 per cent excess capacity and it got through that period of time quite well, except for the period of about 1966 or 1967; maybe it was 1965, at that point it was very low in excess capacity. It was down to a negative position at one point, and that may have been around the time of the great blackout which affected all of the northeastern United States as well as Ontario.", "The average level of excess capacity during that period was 10 per cent. Yet during the 1970s it’s going to be between 25 and 30 per cent, which is something quite different, Mr. Speaker. Moreover, not only is the margin of spare capacity, which is now being questioned by the Ontario Energy Board, something like three times the margin of the 1960s, but during most of the year that margin of excess capacity is much higher than the 25 or 30 per cent one finds at the peak in December when demand on Ontario Hydro is the greatest. In fact it goes as high as 50 or 55 per cent margin of spare capacity in the summer months.", "In other words, if peaking power was absolutely essential, from the Stewartville plant for example, but if the rush of water in the spring and the summer was causing problems, well there is a tremendous amount of excess capacity in the Hydro system that would permit the Stewartville plant to be used for peaking power at the times of year when most needed, which would be during the three or four winter months.", "Moreover, if hydraulic capacity had suddenly become so attractive, why is it that there was no other new hydraulic capacity coming on stream within Hydro as far ahead as its planning extends, that is up until the early 1980s? On the other hand, if hydraulic capacity has now become so attractive, there are approximately 35 sites around Ontario of base load or of peaking hydraulic capacity.", "When the Lower Notch plant was completed in 1971 Hydro said: “That’s it. That’s the last hydraulic plant we’re going to build.” And then as a sort of a stutter, as an afterthought, it was decided to commit this plant at Arnprior. Now, suddenly, Hydro was putting forward timetables in its presentation to the Ontario Energy Board that indicate that during the 1980s it may be possible, it may be desirable, to install a lot more hydraulic capacity. Given the exceptionally high costs of the peaking power coming from the Arnprior plant, and given the fact that the power from the Arnprior plant is clearly not needed when you have a 25 to 30 per cent excess of capacity, then the question has to be asked: Surely somewhere around the system, somewhere around the province, there is deliverable peak power available from hydraulic resources that are not yet developed, which can come in and be useful at far less than the price of the Arnprior power?", "Among other things, there are about 500 megawatts of power which can be cranked out of the Niagara generating station for peaking purposes with the necessary investment; and when you are talking in chunks of power that great, Mr. Speaker, it would suggest to me that that is going to come in a lot cheaper than the power from Arnprior.", "The next point is that to say that Arnprior power is cheaper than coal now clearly begs the question of whether it was economic initially, and I am afraid that the information that I have had from Hydro indicates that the figures have been consistently stacked in order to favour the Arnprior project. I have given information about that to Hydro and to Mr. Evans, I don’t want to read a lot of it into the record -- I have spoken a lot about this -- but the figures have been stacked and I can provide evidence to prove it. In other words, the alternatives have been downgraded in order to make Arnprior look more attractive.", "In his letter -- which presumably had the approval of the engineering people at Arnprior, Mr. Evans talked about the use of Arnprior peaking power four hours a day, five days a week, that is 1,040 hours per year." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order please. I might suggest that it is customary to refer to the hon. member by his riding rather than his name." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "I apologize to the hon. member and to you, Mr. Speaker.", "The member for Simcoe Centre, in his letter, refers to this 1,040 hours of operation for this plant, which we know is going to cost $78 million if it doesn’t go up from that.", "Now the minimum cost at eight per cent interest rate of running that plant, even if you don’t pay a nickel back in capital, is about $6.3 million a year. And if you only run it for a thousand and a few hours at a capacity of 78 megawatts you get about 81 or 82 gigawatt hours -- I am learning about my technical terms -- and if you want to cost that out, Mr. Speaker, then the cost of that peaking power is 77 mills per kilowatt hour, 7.7 cents per kilowatt hour -- just about nine or 10 times the cost of Hydro’s bulk sales to industrial consumers and to the municipal utilities.", "Obviously, if we are going to be putting up a project which is being justified because it is cheaper than coal, and yet is going to cost 10 times as much as the average price of power -- I admit that is the average -- and if we are going to do it on a system that basically doesn’t have the really high peaks and valleys of demand that other power systems are concerned with, then we are in a pretty desperate crisis.", "It does suggest, however, that one looks at alternatives pretty closely. What the member’s letter on behalf of Hydro was saying was that coal-fired power is going to cost something over a dime per kilowatt hour, if it is 30 per cent more expensive than this particular power; and frankly that just doesn’t square with the information which has been made available by Hydro in the submissions to the Ontario Energy Board.", "If you want to take one example take nuclear power, which you can generate for nine or 10 mills per kilowatt hour. Run a nuclear plant for a day and you get 240 mills per 24 kilowatt hours over the course of a day, and that means you get power all the day long for less than the cost of generating power from the Arnprior plant for only four hours. In other words, you get free power for 20 hours a day, and I am sure there is some kind of market that could be found for it.", "These kinds of economics, Mr. Speaker, are not absolutely compelling. I admit that, because I am not an engineer. I am simply a layman with some knowledge of figures and some understanding of this particular question and maybe the ability to put a few probing questions. It certainly does beg the question about system alternatives, though, and as to whether they have been looked at.", "Hydro has something like 5,000 megawatts of capacity of hydraulic power scattered around the province. It doesn’t take too much thinking to imagine that perhaps some of that existing hydraulic capacity could be changed to peaking capacity if there was such a desperate need. Then the base level that would be lost would be replaced by bringing in a new nuclear plant, by accelerating the nuclear programme, by accelerating the thermal programme, or perhaps by trying to find somebody to buy it from elsewhere, although I accept that’s pretty difficult.", "If peaking power is going to be so expensive to Hydro, then one can also ask: What would be the cost of an advertising campaign to get people to turn off their lights between 4 and 6 o’clock in the afternoon in order to shave the peak by the extent that’s needed in order to prevent the need for the Arnprior plant and other similar plants that would be as expensive?", "Or what about the possibility of finding industries that are willing to run their plants for 20 hours a day but not to run them between 9 and 11 and between 4 and 6 -- that is the four peak hours -- in order that the power diverted from industry could be turned into the general system to meet the peaks; and therefore again prevent the need for building this very expensive peaking power plant.", "Or for that matter, Mr. Speaker, what about gas turbines, which run on oil -- dare I say the word? They are not a particularly attractive solution right now in view of what has been happening with oil prices, but the governments of this country, provincial and federal, have just made a decision about future oil prices that says we will have relatively moderate escalation from $6 a barrel. And Hydro itself estimates that by the time the price gets up to the equivalent of $1 per million Btu, synthetic oils can be produced to be competitive with natural oil. In other words, there is a point at which the tremendous reserves of the oil sands will become available for firing, among other things, gas turbines in this particular province.", "People in the industry have announced contracts which indicate that gas turbines are available for about $100 per kilowatt-hour capacity, about one-tenth of the cost of the Arnprior plant, and that the cost of operating them at current oil prices is of the order of 25 mills per kilowatt-hour on a peaking basis. It is not very attractive, but when we are looking at power that costs three times as much, as in the Arnprior project, then it does look pretty attractive.", "Less than a year ago, in April, 1973, Task Force Hydro estimated that the old-fashioned steam turbines had a marginal cost for producing electricity of four to seven mills, and that the costs of emergency supplies, such as power produced by turbines, which accounted for only one or two per cent of Hydro’s needs, were up to 30 mills. Again, Mr. Speaker, that is a long shot short of the cost of power from this Arnprior dam.", "As I say, I’m not in a position to conclusively prove anything about the dam. I am in a position to raise these questions because they have not been satisfactorily answered, and the questions are sufficiently compelling that I think Hydro has a responsibility to indicate to the public, to this Legislature and to the Energy Board that the people who made its decision and the people who recommend projects to its senior management are not a bunch of nincompoops and fools, because frankly there is a grave suspicion that they’ve been acting just in that manner.", "Mr. Speaker, I want to suggest a couple of alternatives as far as the Arnprior project is concerned. In the first place I want to point out to the House that there has not been any major investment by the provincial government in infrastructure in eastern Ontario in order to help its development during the last two or three years. The most that we’ve seen is some continued work on Highways 417 and 416 -- and that’s it; nothing else. As usual, Metro Toronto and the Toronto-centred region gets most of the government’s attention.", "Now if $50 million or $60 million had been made available for the creation of industrial parks, for the improvement of rail and road transportation facilities, for investment for year-round tourism, say in Renfrew county and so on, it would have been a terrific shot in the arm to a region of the province second only to northern Ontario in its degree of underdevelopment and which, apart from the Ottawa area, is in some pretty serious economic straits from time to time. That is an alternative use of the money which, instead, is going into an Arnprior dam and will not create one single continuing job.", "I am sorry the government hasn’t thought in those terms. I am sorry that when it was contemplating through Hydro the investment of such a large sum in the region, that it didn’t go to the people in the area and say: “Look, given the alternatives of this for the Madawaska River, or this for the economic development in the region, which would you prefer” -- and get some kind of indication of public feeling. Because I don’t think the public feeling, if the question had been posed that way, would have been all that positive for the Arnprior dam.", "The only reason it was positive for the dam when it was first broached in the area was: First, that people were given no alternative; second, only a very limited number of people were consulted, and they were mainly people in a position to benefit directly to the temporary creation of jobs; third, there was no information made available to them about the deleterious or harmful consequences of the particular project.", "I would like to suggest that in a programme of public participation, that Hydro could have been quite frank with the people of Renfrew county and the other areas affected in the lower stretch of the Madawaska River about the problems that it knew existed with erosion on that part of the Madawaska River.", "Officials could have said: “Look, we think that we may have made a mistake when we built that dam at Stewartville and decided to use it for only four hours a day. We want to explore with you the means by which we can get maximum benefit out of the dam while causing the minimum disruption and damage in the area downstream. We are prepared to act as good public, corporate citizens in this area and we are prepared to try to find some satisfactory solution which will enhance the area and will compensate for any erosion damage that the Hydro dam may have been causing” -- an open and frank kind of admission that something needed to be done.", "I would suggest, for example, what Hydro might well have done would have been the following:", "In the first place, it made a lot of sense that it should acquire the cottages -- because obviously for cottage owners along that portion of the river it was not tenable to have water levels which might vary by as much as 4 ft or 5 ft during the course of a day or a weekend; and they were the ones who were generating the complaint.", "Second, as far as the farmers in the area are concerned, they should have been offered the alternative of either selling their riverfront land to Hydro or else selling easements to Hydro. This, in effect, would allow Hydro use of the shore frontage and would also protect Hydro from claims for damages in the case of any slumping of the banks.", "Third, it’s clear that the cost of a weir across the river is something less than $900,000. You may be able to build them for maybe $400,000 or $500,000; the figures from Hydro aren’t very clear. It would therefore have been possible to go forward with the proposal for a campsite near Waba Creek -- just near the site of the dam which is now being built -- for a small amount of money.", "It would have been possible to put in maybe two or three weirs in order to provide a measure of control of the river, to slow down its velocity and to create better recreational facilities for boating and so on and in order to slow down the way in which any of the water was attacking the riverside. Now those weirs might have cost, say, $2 million together with the campground investment and other recreational facilities.", "Again, I don’t know; I throw out the ideas. But I do know that the cost of the weirs themselves was very modest, was less than $1 million dollars for each one, because those are figures that were estimated by the Hydro people.", "And thirdly, in the area below where the dam is being built, there were complaints from the town of Arnprior about its water intake on a sewer line, and from the marina operator; things like that. I suggest that Hydro could have come forward and been very generous with the town of Arnprior in offering, let’s say up to a couple of million dollars for major recreational development of the waterfront along that two-mile stretch for a transfer of the pollution control plant and the sewage plant to the other end of town, along with the related costs that would be involved in order that there could be a major river-front park that would be a tourist attraction and be of service, not just to people of the area but also to people from Ottawa-Carleton only a 40 or 50-minute drive away. Those three items, Mr. Speaker, would have cost about $6 million.", "I suggest, in addition, that Hydro could have made a commitment to people in the area that it was prepared to spend on summer employees up to maybe $200,000 to $250,000 a year in order that they would develop, maintain and repair from erosion the banks of this 10-mile stretch of river. I think that the whole valley could then have been developed for recreational purposes, or what is known as linear recreation now. There is a tremendous movement concerned with trails in the province right now. Whether snowmobile trails that snake sometimes for dozens of miles between various points in the north, cross-country skiing trails or hiking trails, like the Bruce and Rideau trails; there’s a tremendous attraction in trails nowadays. This particular valley, which is particularly beautiful and very accessible to Ottawa, would have been a good place to have experimented with that.", "There would still have been some erosion in the valley. The valley has been naturally subject to erosion since God created it, and if you will, Hydro might have had even an interpretative programme which would have talked among other things about the way in which erosion takes place.", "In view of the fact that the peak demands for Hydro are in the wintertime, Hydro could have cut back or even shut down its generating plant at Stewartville and kept the level of the river relatively constant during the months of high recreational use without, really, any particular loss, because there are ample other economic sources of peaking power available to Hydro during the months of the spring, summer and the early fall.", "In other words, for maybe $6 million or $7 million Hydro could have created a tremendously attractive recreation area. It would have involved local people in a determination of what they wanted to do with their valley. It would possibly have had their understanding and acquiescence in measures which would have mitigated the erosion, particularly when it became clear that the $78 million alternative is also an alternative to mitigate erosion and not to end it entirely. As I know the former vice-chairman is aware, Hydro has been saying again and again that this is not a final solution to erosion, but that the proposed lake behind the dam will greatly improve slope stability and greatly reduce erosion.", "The measures I’m suggesting could also have greatly improved the stability and greatly reduced erosion, not perhaps to the same extent but to an extent that might have been acceptable to the people in the area, given the fact that for 20 years they’ve had the river going up and down and apparently there haven’t been any particular complaints about it. If there had been, they weren’t noted in the documents that Hydro has been preparing. It may be that people in the area would have rejected this whole idea out of hand.", "It seems to me, though, that it would have been a prudent thing for Hydro to do, to have studied in detail the hydrology and the geology of the erosion and to have full details available for local people to understand and to have helped Hydro to assess the risks of any major slumping or major landfalls such as was referred to in the member for Simcoe Centre’s letter. Then it would have been prudent for them to consider an alternative that would develop a valley which, in fact, has tremendous recreational potential into a recreational resource; and which would have at the same time allowed the farmers in the area to have retained their farmland, to have retained their pasture, and their timber land, and to have kept their farms, which in some cases have been in the same families for more than a century.", "If you wanted to cost that kind of programme, Mr. Speaker, very simply the cost of protecting all or part of the peaking capacity of the Stewartville plant upstream would have been minimal compared with the costs projected for this full dam now being built. Since one of the justifications or rationales for the Arnprior dam has been that it protected the Stewartville dam, it seems to me it would have been prudent that other and cheaper measures to protect the Stewartville dam might also have been explored.", "Unfortunately, they were rejected out of hand by a bunch of damn builders who could see nothing else in sight but to build a big dam and who didn’t understand there were other and more sensible alternatives which ought to have been thoroughly and completely explored. They are throwing away $60 million or $70 million. If the alternative I am talking about would have been acceptable to people in the area -- I would suggest that if the people in the area were taken into Hydro’s confidence, as they haven’t been, they would have been prepared to accept a reasonable kind of alternative like that. If Hydro said to them at the outset: “We have a problem. We think we blew it but we really can’t justify spending $80 million or $90 million on only 10 miles of river,” a lot of people would say: “Okay, that is a reasonable position.”", "Didn’t Hydro itself make some rather pejorative comment about the environmental ethics of the people in the area? Let us leave that by the by. There were alternatives and they have never been adequately explored.", "Mr. Speaker, I want to go back briefly over the main points here which would back my contention that even though $7 million or $8 million have been spent on this particular project, it is time to stop it now. It is time to stop it; to suspend the existing contract to Pitts; and to run the risk of having to pay them a million or so for cancellation because the major part of this investment, some $70 million, has yet to be spent. That $70 million is not an economic or desirable investment for the province or for Hydro by any of the evidence which we have before us.", "I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, there have been so many unusual or irregular things about this particular project that there is a compelling case for Hydro to carry out its commitment to public participation now, and for either Hydro or the government to hold a full public inquiry at which all of the alternatives can be explored.", "If we look at the record we start out with untendered contracts to Acres; an untendered contract to Pitts; the conflict of interest between the consulting firm and the contractor who has the two major contracts; the political ramifications of the timing of this particular project announced two weeks before the re-election of the member for Renfrew South (Mr. Yakabuski); the loss of farmland at a time when people across the province are concerned with the loss of farmland; the cavalier attitude of this government, and of Hydro in particular, to agricultural land; the unnecessary loss of farmland in view of alternatives which have not been adequately explored; the incompetent handling of land acquisition on the part of Hydro; the compelling and overwhelming evidence of inadequate study of erosion, of the hydrology of the alternatives to the scheme; the suppression of information by the president of Hydro, by the former vice-chairman of Hydro, now by the member for Simcoe Centre, and by the Minister of Energy (Mr. McKeough), which has been subsequently in fact endorsed by the Premier (Mr. Davis) himself; and the fact that on the figures now available the power is going to cost something like nine to 10 times more than what power is being sold for by Hydro.", "Surely, somewhere, in the people’s sensitive antenna, the alarm bells will start to ring when that kind of thing is happening, Mr. Speaker, and they will say: “We’ve got to stop.” I urge the government to stop the project, to hold an inquiry, to table all the facts, to make them available to the Legislature and to other people who have a concern with this matter and to come clean on this particular project because otherwise the charge that this is a political dam brought into being purely for the re-election of the member for Renfrew South will stand as proved throughout his political record." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. P. J. Yakabuski (Renfrew South)", "text": [ "That’s a lot of nonsense. On a point of order, we listened to that nonsense all yesterday afternoon and again today; and he knows as well as I know that not one voter in Renfrew South would believe one word of it. It is absolute garbage." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "That is not a point of order. Sit down." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order please.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Renfrew South will have every opportunity to speak later." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Yakabuski", "text": [ "It is absolute garbage. He knows that. The member either knows it or he is very far away from the pulse of the people." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order please." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Yakabuski", "text": [ "It’s utter garbage. That is what it is." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "He should get his own hall." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "I would suggest that possibly the member for Renfrew South himself might be the best person to provide the evidence which has been suppressed and denied to the House, to provide the proof that Hydro did do the studies beforehand, to get a public inquiry into this matter --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order please. The hon. member for Ottawa Centre has the floor. The member for Renfrew South may reply later if he wishes, in his turn in the debate.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "I just simply suggest, Mr. Speaker, that unless there is an inquiry to get all the facts on the table, and unless all the information is tabled to prove otherwise, we can only assume that this is a political dam built for the member for Renfrew South.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The member for Scarborough Centre.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Is it the member for Scarborough Centre or the member for Prince Edward-Lennox next?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. F. Drea (Scarborough Centre)", "text": [ "The what? No, I was next, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "It was my understanding that the member for Prince Edward-Lennox was to be allowed to continue his remarks, which were interrupted at an earlier date." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. A. Taylor (Prince Edward-Lennox)", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for permitting me to continue with my remarks. I was interrupted at an earlier date, as you stated, and I was thinking for a moment that interruption might become permanent." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "By whom?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Taylor", "text": [ "If you had sat here for the last several days, Mr. Speaker, I think you would understand the significance of my remarks." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. W. Martel (Sudbury East)", "text": [ "It embarrassed him, that’s all." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Taylor", "text": [ "As a matter of fact, now that the member raises this, and before I get on with some of the points I would like to make, there is an old Arab proverb and it might be worthwhile just reciting it. “He who knows and knows that he knows is wise; follow him. He who knows and knows not that he knows is asleep; wake him. He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool; shun him.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "That is good stuff." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Taylor", "text": [ "Yes. As a matter of fact there is just one little bit left that members might want to use some time, and it says: “He who knows not and knows that he knows not is a child; teach him.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "This is just like my Sunday school class." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Taylor", "text": [ "Is that too subtle for the member?", "The Speech from the Throne stated in part that tourist operations, small businesses and service industries will benefit from improved loan programmes and financial assistance from the three provincial development corporations." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "That’s been said for the last five years." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Taylor", "text": [ "Operators of small business establishments will receive more help and advice in solving management problems. I must say that I am sure the intent of that is to further amplify the existing government programmes, because we have had government sponsored programmes to assist the tourist industry in the past. As you know, Mr. Speaker, the maximum amount of a loan for a tourist operator was $75,000 and it is my understanding that the ceiling has been raised so that as of now loans up to half a million dollars can be made by the province --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "With a million dollars in funds!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Taylor", "text": [ "-- at a very attractive interest rate of six per cent and repayable over a term of 15 years. I think that is certainly an incentive to the development of our tourist industry. And when I say development I am not only speaking in terms of new capital works but also the upgrading of existing establishments, such as the hotels, motels and marinas and that type of thing. I also say that this includes special attractions such as miniature golf courses, restaurants in conjunction with these tourist establishments and so forth.", "Members may realize it wasn’t long ago that tourist operators had a very very difficult time in raising any conventional money at all, and if they could it was in the realm of at least 14 per cent interest per annum.", "It certainly is a programme that should be accelerated, if anything, and additional assistance given to the tourist industry.", "In speaking about the tourist industry, I would like to say that for some time a number of the members from the eastern parts of Ontario have been trying to get a tourist information centre established somewhere on Highway 401, east of Toronto. If such a centre were established -- and I’m talking in terms of a centre much like the centre just south of Barrie -- then that centre would provide information and a stimulus to the travelling public to further explore the various facilities and attractions that we have in eastern Ontario, and it would be a boon to at least 30 ridings." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)", "text": [ "Did the member speak to the minister about it? Did the minister travel there last summer?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Taylor", "text": [ "I must say, Mr. Speaker, in response to my friend from the Lakehead area, that I have spoken to the minister on a number of occasions --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. M. Deacon (York Centre)", "text": [ "Thunder Bay." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Taylor", "text": [ "-- as he may also have done. I have spoken to him in conjunction with a number of the members from the eastern ridings." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "I’d be happy to put in a good word for the member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Taylor", "text": [ "We’ve had many good words, and we hope that the opposition will further assist --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "By all means." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Taylor", "text": [ "-- the representations we have made in this direction, for the simple reason that it would be a great boon, as I say, to the eastern part of the province, and I think it should be carried out as soon as possible." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "When does he want it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Taylor", "text": [ "Well, that’s one item, Mr. Speaker, for which we have the wholehearted endorsement of the NDP. I’m sure that will --" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Carry a lot of weight." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "When does he want the funding?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Taylor", "text": [ "-- add some credibility to that party’s stance in my particular area." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "There’ll be money next week." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Taylor", "text": [ "The Throne Speech also mentioned the operators of small business establishments receiving advice in solving management problems, as I said a few moments ago.", "I might say that the Ministry of Industry and Tourism, in conjunction with the Ministry of Colleges and Universities, now has a programme which is underwriting a university advisory group to the extent of some $400,000 and utilizes the expertise and training of university students in senior years. These students -- who would be from administration, finance and similar disciplines -- could go into the countryside and assist small business operators to analyze their particular operations and to determine where changes might best be made in order to further facilitate their business operations and make it more profitable for them to carry on.", "I think the programme has worked out very well, and I might say that Imperial Oil put up some $80,000 this past year to assist with that programme, and should be commended for doing this. The programme, in my view, should be further encouraged and expanded.", "I might also say that the appointment of James Joyce as the first fulltime chairman of the Ontario Development Corp. is an excellent move and an excellent choice. I think he will lend a great deal of background and business experience to that particular post, and I think it will certainly assist the corporation in its objectives.", "Before moving on, I would like to comment on the food establishments in the service centres on Highway 401. It is my understanding they are establishments that are rented out, or tendered out, by the province through the Ministry of Transportation and Communications. I think greater attention should be paid to the particular facilities that they have, and more specifically to their food operations and the service they render to the public. After all, they are really on the frontier of our tourist industry. The travelling public first comes into contact with many parts of our area through dropping in for gasoline and for a bite to eat.", "In some cases, I think, these facilities could be improved a great deal. It may be that the amount being extracted in terms of payment for these facilities is too great because it is bound to be reflected, and I’m sure it is reflected, in the food and the service that one experiences at these places.", "Mr. Speaker, mention was made in the Throne Speech of proposed legislation with regard to consumer product warranties and guarantees to order to provide better protection for consumers, new redress procedures and more flexible means of administration. Legislation, it was stated, will also be introduced to protect the consumer from unfair and unacceptable trade and business practices. It is my view this move is long overdue.", "I think the dollar is fast losing its integrity, and I think the consumer’s purchasing power is shrinking, and it’s shrinking for a number of reasons. First of all, we have the erosion of the dollar itself through inflation. Secondly, we have the production of inferior products and the passing off of these products without a reduction in the price." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Proctor-Silex." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Taylor", "text": [ "In other words, we have shoddy workmanship and we have poor materials.", "If one, for example, looks at the evolution of the garbage bag in this province -- it may be a rather simple example -- but the members may recollect that the industry did quite a selling job in order to introduce plastic garbage bags in lieu of the normal garbage container or the garbage can. Most municipalities had municipal bylaws that specified the type of garbage container -- normally a metal container with a tight-fitting lid. These bylaws provided for this particular facility.", "Of course, the industry had to convince the municipalities the garbage bag would be a suitable alternative, and as a matter of fact would have many advantages. It undertook a programme of distributing plastic garbage bags. As a matter of fact, they were delivered to many households free of charge in order to induce the householder to use these containers.", "At that time, the thickness of the bag was such that it would actually hold what one was putting into it. If you look at the evolution of that bag, it’s like the evolution of the automobile in terms of the amount of metal that’s being put into a car these days. It’s deteriorated to such an extent that the thing is worn out before you can get it on the street.", "That’s a deterioration in the dollar, really, because while the price is going up the quality is going down. That’s just one example.", "You have a cutting back -- which is a third way in which we experience the dollar shrinking -- a cutting back of the contents in the package or in the container. The candy bar is an example of this.", "Again, one can see what has happened to the ordinary chocolate bar. There is a big wrapper and a piece of cardboard to give it some form, and of course the contents are very small. One can maintain the quality, but at the same time, they are shipping air.", "Cereal boxes are another example. They may be only two-thirds filled. Opaque containers are another example, insofar as they are used for products that people purchase; whether they be single-walled or double-walled containers.", "We have seen these products advertised on television, but it applies to any type of opaque container where one really cannot see the contents. The weight may be put on as the number of fluid ounces contained, but that becomes even more complicated for the consumer with conversion to the metric system.", "Instead of the public experiencing an economy with rising expectations, I think they are experiencing the biggest ripoff, since probably Gypsy Rose Lee first disrobed on a public platform.", "This whole question can be extended into housing. Yesterday we discussed a private member’s bill dealing with warranties on houses; and I think there is merit in the concept. But in my estimation the problem goes deeper.", "The member for York-Forest Hill (Mr. Givens) gave as an example the motor industry projecting an image of stability, with purchasers having some satisfaction in that they were dealing with a corporation that was large enough and sensitive enough of its image to produce a proper product or a product that was not shoddy.", "I question whether that premise can really be accepted. I think if one looks back on the evolution of the automobile, not only in styling but contents, one can see how the material has really evolved -- the thickness of the metals; the workmanship; the way cars are put together in terms of fittings, trim and so on.", "It is a very difficult area, because we are really dealing with attitudes. We are dealing with workers; we are dealing with the people who put these things together; we are dealing with some manufacturers who are not keen to produce a quality product.", "The green paper on Ontario consumer product warranties says on page 26, paragraph 13, that the Consumer Protection Bureau Act should provide the establishment and execution of a programme of consumer product testing, and performance evaluation should be a function of the bureau.", "I think this is really vital to any legislation that is introduced. If one is talking about consumer product warranties, it is not just a question of amending the existing Sale of Goods Act and making more conditions or warranties mandatory or part of the contract and doing away with disclaimers. I think it goes further than that.", "It is really a matter of testing the products -- seeing what is made, seeing what is marketed, seeing how the products are serviced; probably going around and making independent investigations of how these products stand up and what type of product servicing is available.", "We are confronted today with the idea that you don’t fix anything; you throw it out and replace it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "The member’s corporate friends are doing that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Taylor", "text": [ "The planned obsolescence concept has taken over to such an extent that there is very little that is being repaired.", "It’s so complicated a consumer doesn’t know. If he is going to get his automobile fixed, for example, even if he stood over the mechanic while he did it, the owner would wonder what he was doing. He’d probably see a sign before he got as far as the mechanic saying: “The public is not permitted past this particular point.” So the member of the public is discouraged from seeing what is being done on his automobile.", "He is further kept in the dark as to what in fact has been done, or whether in fact it was done. The automobile owner may have a representation in some cases that certain repairs are being performed when in fact they are not being performed.", "Again we have this type of activity or consumer ripoff that I think must be looked into. It must be investigated. It’s implicit in the marketing of any product that the repair service follow that particular product. I think we have to start with these bigger products." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Not too many from the cabinet listening to that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Taylor", "text": [ "My friend from York-Forest Hill mentioned that the biggest purchase a person may make in his lifetime is a home. The biggest single purchase probably is a home, but when one figures the turnover of cars because, as I say, of the inferior quality of materials and workmanship that goes into those cars with their planned or built-in obsolescence, then over a lifetime I dare say a person would spend more on automobiles than he would on a home.", "The same principle applies in cases such as this. I think that one has to look to the merchandiser and have someone whom one can put the finger on and say: “I bought this product from you. You have represented that it is a good product or that it will perform in this way. Now I’m holding you responsible to see that it is.”", "If one has to bring in the manufacturer or we have to legislate that the manufacturer is brought in and is jointly and severally liable or primarily liable for the production of the product and the accountability to the consumer, then that legislation should be brought in so that the people are not continually harassed and frustrated in trying to get satisfaction after they first buy the particular product.", "We are seeing more and more of that kind of thing, and people are more and more becoming victims of the slick ads and the fast merchandising that is taking place. As I say, we have the combination here of an attitude, along with merchandising that says: “Well, it doesn’t matter.” It is an attitude of not being too concerned with making anything that is too perfect." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "It is the private enterprise system that does that, isn’t it?" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "What’s wrong with private enterprise?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Taylor", "text": [ "May I just say to my friend from Ottawa Centre, he tempts me to respond because not too many years ago I was in Russia and I’ve seen some of the workmanship that is done in that particular country, which can hardly be termed a capitalistic system or a free market system. As a matter of fact, they had just completed the new airport and some of the workmanship there I’m sure could have been done by a child of six years of age. Not that they are not capable of doing fine workmanship, but it is just incredible the type of workmanship that’s turned out.", "Furthermore I was looking at some housing projects. At least in this system we can go and look at our housing projects; we can see what’s being done, we can go through an apartment building. In Moscow I was taken into an exhibit of building achievements where one could see the plaque to Comrade Somebody-or-other who had invented the waffle system for mass-producing sides of modular units.", "Again, if the member went through one of those model apartment units where probably two families would be sharing, he would realize there would be a revolution if that was introduced in this country and given to our populace rent-free or at a very minimal rent.", "So don’t talk to me about the free enterprise system and the capitalistic system, where the means of production are owned by the individuals and not by the state." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "What individuals?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Taylor", "text": [ "And if he would go and see some of that type of workmanship, I think he would probably have second thoughts about making a remark such as he made before." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "The means of production aren’t owned by the other people. They are owned by five per cent of the population --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Taylor", "text": [ "Oh, well, they say that figures don’t lie, but liars figure. I’m not suggesting any impropriety; I am just saying that if the hon. member looked into his facts before he spoke, I think he would become more learned and a more credible person." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "All the widows and orphans own the shares. Is that what the member is saying? The widows and orphans have all the shares?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "For purposes of necessity, Imperial Oil and --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "It’s all very well for them to rip us off." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Taylor", "text": [ "Well it’s all very well for my friend to consume the benefits of our system and, being a fat-cat, to criticize it. But if he had to get along in some of these other systems where the state controls so much, I think he’d be very glad to come here, where he has the opportunity." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "But the hon. member was just criticizing our system and the quality of the workmanship and saying there is a need for protection from the government in order to protect people from these marvellous free enterprisers." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "The member can’t have it both ways." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Taylor", "text": [ "Again, I hate to credit my friend with anything, but being a master of distortion -- and I am tempted to give him that badge of questionable distinction -- but what I have been trying to point out, and what he fails to understand, is that no matter how many regulations we have, we can’t produce a quality product unless the people who are actually producing that product have the will to do so." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "That’s not the workers’ fault." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Taylor", "text": [ "It’s the same concept as working to rule and so on. We can have all the rules we like, and think we have legislated perfection, but what we’re doing is legislating a slowdown if people follow those rules to that degree. It’s the pride of workmanship, the attitude of the worker, that matter; and I think the attitude has shifted in our particular society today to the point that there isn’t the same pride that there used to be -- and that comes from within the producer himself.", "Now, Mr. Speaker, getting back to the Throne Speech -- and I would like to confine my remarks to the Throne Speech, unlike those who wander so far afield --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "The member is so personal." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "He’s right on." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. G. Nixon (Dovercourt)", "text": [ "Carry on, Jim." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Taylor", "text": [ "I would comment that when we are dealing with consumer product warranties, we might consider not only the aspect of chattels, which is really the subject matter of the green paper, but also the question of housing --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Who plans built-in obsolescence, by the way?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Taylor", "text": [ "-- which was debated yesterday under a private bill, because it might very well be that legislation could also deal with that particular area.", "What I am concerned about, of course, is that when we get into housing, as was mentioned yesterday, we have to be careful that we don’t get into a whole new bureaucratic regime where people start inspecting for the sake of inspection.", "As you know, Mr. Speaker, housing has been built and is being built under the National Housing Act, where there are direct loans to the people who will be occupying their homes; in those cases there are probably a dozen inspections by government inspectors. In the bill yesterday it was suggested that there be four inspections. I don’t think a dozen inspections will ensure a fault-free home, nor do I think that four inspections will ensure that. I think we are into an area that is going to be very difficult to legislate.", "When we talk of homes, Mr. Speaker, we are also talking of people moving into those homes. If we look at some of the contracts used by commercial carriers who move furniture, we see that there are disclaimers in those contracts. At one time we thought that a commercial carrier was virtually an insurer, so that if he damaged a person’s goods then he would be made responsible. But today there are many exclusions as to his responsibility, and for those items that aren’t excluded there is often a provision that compensation is confined to something like 30 cents per pound.", "I think that if the vendors of furniture can move that furniture from their store or warehouse to your home, surely a person in the moving business should be able to move that furniture from one home to another without damaging it. I think it’s that area as well that may very well be investigated and included in the legislation that would be drafted to protect consumers.", "Mr. Speaker, the Speech from the Throne also made mention that there would be measures for the control and reduction of litter and solid waste. This is really an area of the environment and today the thrust seems to be more to matters of the environment. I think the provincial thrust has been away from the simple creation of an appropriate climate for private investment and now the philosophy seems to be of using government as a deliberate instrument of social and economic guidance.", "So we are really getting into this area of ecology and environment and lifestyles, call it what you will. Our concerns are directed to traffic and transportation, water and sewer facilities, the parks systems, the problems of solid waste disposal. I think it’s time we started showing something more on the ground in terms of solid waste disposal.", "I know that a tremendous advance has been made in the financing and construction of waste purification plants and sewage disposal plants, trunk sewer mains and trunk water mains and the laterals and so on. This is a big area and it’s an on-going process. It’s vital. It’s probably more essential than anything.", "As I say, there are hundreds of millions of dollars being spent in this direction, but we haven’t really solved or hardly begun to solve the problem of garbage disposal. There have been many papers and many suggestions for creating a plant that would use modern techniques in the disposal of garbage.", "We’ve heard for some years about a proposal by two professors at Queen’s University, Messrs. Brown and Clark, to construct a plant which would utilize garbage and also sewage sludge and produce certain byproducts and a compost. We haven’t seen much progress in connection with the physical establishment of that particular plant. There have been many representations, I am sure, to the Ministry of the Environment in the past in order to obtain its assistance, financial and otherwise, in the establishment of pilot plants to see just what we can do along this line.", "As a matter of fact, I made representations myself on a number of occasions in connection with Prince Edward county. Here we have a geographical area which lends itself to a small plant which could be so situated that it could service the city of Belleville as well.", "We have the technology, but there seems to be a philosophy that you have to make money from your byproducts. It is my view that we have to dispose of garbage and not make money from our byproducts. So let us not be too concerned right now about what we are going to do with the compost, because I can tell some people what to do with it. I know what I would do with it in Prince Edward county --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Gaunt (Huron-Bruce)", "text": [ "Don’t be obscene now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Taylor", "text": [ "-- would be to use it on some of the shallow-soil areas. As a matter of fact, it might assist in those areas where tree plantings have taken place in an effort to stabilize some of the dunes, because as members know there has been a tree-planting programme for many years there in an effort to stabilize that particular area. I am sure we have many sites where we could utilize the compost, which is really a soil material and which would benefit the countryside.", "It is not essential, Mr. Speaker, to make a profit on something like this. I think it is essential to solve our problem. That is number one.", "This type of plant has been functioning quite well for years in some European countries, in Switzerland for example, and it may be that it would function equally well here and in smaller communities. We know we do have a pilot plant in the city of Toronto, which really isn’t going to contribute very much to the solution of its gigantic waste disposal problem. But if a plant such as this were put in an area where it could adequately dispose of the problem, then it would really be functioning in some worthwhile and constructive fashion.", "We may have to make a few mistakes, but that is all right. We must make mistakes to learn. I think the sooner we get a series of these pilot plants under way the better. I think it is going to be essential that the government bankroll the capital construction of these plants, because that is the only way we are really going to get it off the ground.", "I know the municipalities will argue that the ideas are great if they can get someone else to finance them, but they may be willing to finance a part. Then the problem comes, of course, in the on-going expense of operating these plants. Who is going to guarantee that the plant will function in perpetuity and who is going to finance the cost?", "These are some of the problems that have slowed down the establishment of this type of plant. But I think we have to take some bold steps. If that means making some mistakes then we will make some mistakes, but let’s get the plants off the paper and on to the ground and see how they function. Let’s either see if they work or if they don’t work here. If they work, fine; if they don’t work, we will write it off and get on with something else. I think that it is essential that something be done in this direction." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Right away." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Taylor", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, those are some of the remarks I wanted to complete. I wish to thank you for the wise manner in which you have ensured order in the House and the very fair rules. I see that you always seem to have the facility for assisting the speakers, keeping order and ensuring that the House is very attentive, and I want to thank you in this case." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Before the next hon. member proceeds, I might take a moment to inform the House that, in accordance with standing orders 27 and 28, I have received notice from two hon. members that they were dissatisfied with the answers given to questions during the oral question period today. In accordance with those standing orders, the hon. member for Wentworth (Mr. Deans) shall have, at the adjournment of the House this evening, five minutes to present his views regarding the particular question and the minister will have five minutes to reply if he so wishes. The hon. member for Scarborough West (Mr. Lewis) shall also have the same opportunity to present his case in connection with the question he had asked.", "These questions will take place at the adjournment hour and at 10:30 this evening a motion to adjourn shall be deemed to have been made.", "Now, the hon. member for Ottawa East." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. A. J. Roy (Ottawa East)", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. P. D. Lawlor (Lakeshore)", "text": [ "How did he manage not to get in on that debate?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "I want to make the point very clear, Mr. Speaker, that you advise the people involved in Hansard and all the staff and people who are working around the House that I am not the one who is keeping them late this evening. I hope you make that very clear.", "I am not going to accuse my colleagues of plagiarizing, because I think it’s a rule which is open to all members of the House. I think it quite proper, Mr. Speaker, that if ministers of the Crown see fit not to answer our questions, we use that rule with probably more regularity." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)", "text": [ "He answered, but I was not happy." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "The member wasn’t happy with his answer?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "It was a non-answer." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Then he is abusing the rule, obviously." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "I am not." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "In any event, Mr. Speaker, may I make some comments in line with my colleague who preceded me, the member for Prince Edward-Lennox, and say how pleased we are to see you back in the chair. We were somewhat concerned for a while following the Christmas recess but we are extremely pleased to see that you are in good health, that your sense of humour and your objectivity continue to rule from the chair.", "There are times I suppose, Mr. Speaker, when we feel you should possibly be a bit tougher with the government, especially the ministers, but again I know this is a difficult task which you have. We on this side feel you are exercising it with fairness and objectivity and we are extremely pleased to see that you are in good health. We sincerely hope you will continue to be with us and in that capacity for many years to come." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. F. Young (Yorkview)", "text": [ "The member is not expecting to take over?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Pardon me?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "Oh, yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "If we took over, we would have no objection to keeping the same Speaker. I think possibly this House should give consideration to having some permanency in the chair as well. I think it would be --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Young", "text": [ "In that case, we will agree." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Do you see that, Mr. Speaker? I have my colleagues on my left agreeing with me. Your objectivity and fairness are exuding to all sides of the House here.", "Now, Mr. Speaker, if I might make a few comments. I will not make a few comments about the Throne Speech because I think there was so little in it I would be wasting everybody’s time even to discuss it except to point out that as a member of this House looking at the approach of the Conservative government to various problems which exist in this country, I find it indeed ironic that the national leader of the federal Conservatives should be enunciating certain policies at the federal level on which one of his colleagues in the same party, who is in a position to do something, apparently does not agree with him. One wonders what sort of unanimity or rapport exists between certain members of that party.", "For instance, Mr. Stanfield has covered the length and breadth of this country talking about the question of inflation and saying it is a cancer in our society. It is something which has first priority with him and something that should be dealt with and he has suggested certain measures to take care of that problem.", "It is ironic that in the Throne Speech by his colleague, the Premier of the province, very little should be mentioned about inflation at all; secondly, nothing was mentioned about what steps this province is taking first of all to curb the inflationary spiral or to curb the government’s own appetite for deficit spending; and thirdly, what helpful measures he might take to help those who are on fixed incomes and suffering so badly from the question of inflation.", "The federal leader as well suggests wages and price controls and this does not seem to sit well with the Premier of this province. He has continually dodged whether he is in favour of that, in favour of the policy from his leader." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. O. F. Villeneuve (Glengarry)", "text": [ "Put the responsibility where it belongs." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Well, is he against it or not?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. G. Nixon", "text": [ "He is twisting words again." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "The third thing which I find extremely ironic, Mr. Speaker, is that I think since 1972 the federal Conservatives have been suggesting that the federal sales tax on building materials should be removed. They have been consistent on this, in suggesting that the federal government should be removing the federal sales tax on building materials, whereas the Premier here in this province increased the sales tax on building materials by 40 per cent just last year.", "That just points out the inconsistencies and, I suppose, the difficulty which the federal Conservatives have to take power. Their approaches to the problems are inconsistent within their own party.", "Mr. Speaker, you may recall that last year in my reply to the Throne Speech I dealt with a problem involving the opticians in this province, the problem of the controls by one company called Imperial Optical. I might say, Mr. Speaker, that after speaking on it in the Throne Speech and after bringing in a private member’s bill, and raising it in estimates, and raising it on a number of occasions with the then Minister of Health (Mr. Potter) -- who at first kept mentioning that I was wrong, that there was no conflict of interest -- I am happy to report that continual badgering of the minister has produced some results, and as you know, the board of ophthalmic dispensers has been changed. Four of the five members from the board have been replaced, and been replaced by two lay members.", "I was pleased to see as well, Mr. Speaker, that the present Minister of Health (Mr. Miller) has accepted our suggestions on participation by the public in these professional boards, disciplinary committees and such, I was very pleased to see mention of this in the statement on the Health Disciplines Act, as presented by the minister here today.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I want to speak briefly on the question of law reform in the courts, and the attitude taken by the government, especially in the area of administration of justice and the administration of the courts. I want to mention that as one who has participated in the administration of justice in various capacities in this province I am most disappointed by the priority that is given to administration of justice by the Premier of the province.", "First of all, by the very individuals that he has involved in the administration of justice, the result has been, to say the least, chaotic and a mark of incompetence. You recall, Mr. Speaker, following the 1971 election, the former member for St. George was Provincial Secretary for Justice, Mr. A. F. Lawrence. The first thing that the Provincial Secretary for Justice did, for no apparent reason, was to decide to present a bill that would, for all intents and purposes, cut the salaries of certain levels of judges -- the Supreme Court judges and the county court judges.", "He would cut, in fact, the provincial remuneration and for no apparent reason. There was no public pressure to do this. In fact, the trend had been to try to encourage competent people from the profession to accept posts to serve as judges to improve our standard of justice. And he comes along, for no reason, and antagonizes all the judges at these various levels.", "He talked a bit as well about offtrack betting, and he left for greener pastures. He says, “I’ve had enough.” He left and he’s now in the federal House still making a fool of himself up there in the federal House." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. G. Nixon", "text": [ "Get off that stuff." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, he was replaced as the Provincial Secretary for Justice by the hon. member for Halton West (Mr. Kerr). The first thing he did was bring in a bill to repeal the bill that his predecessor had brought in about judges, and he decided to compensate the judges, or at least bring them back to the previous level. Then his biggest contribution as provincial secretary was chasing across the province talking to housewives about Sunday shopping and this type of thing. For one who was involved in as important a post as Provincial Secretary for Justice, it was indeed really a worthless contribution.", "His final volley was directed against the judges, especially the provincial judges, for being lazy and he succeeded in antagonizing that group of people who at that time were labouring under very difficult circumstances.", "In the Justice secretariat, Mr. Speaker, we had the member for York Mills (Mr. Bales), who very early as Attorney General of the province unfortunately lost all credibility as senior law officer for the Crown when he was involved in a conflict of interest involving land. Then he showed absolute failure of sensing any pulse of what his role was as Attorney General in the Fidinam affair where evidence clearly indicated that there might have been a prima facie case. He could not understand, and he had to be pressured by the opposition members even to investigate this situation.", "It was obvious, Mr. Speaker, that he had no sense of the administration of justice and that he really had no feel of what a senior law officer of the Crown should be in this province. Unfortunately, he relinquished the position as the chief law officer to his senior officials who were really making the decisions for him.", "I intend to come back to this to show what happens when an Attorney General is not able to censure or is not able to control the officers that work within his department, officers who have great powers. Very few people hear about these special prosecutors that they have, but these people have all the resources of the Crown at their disposal. Their decisions are seldom challenged and there is really no one to check on them unless the Attorney General is there to keep them in line.", "If I might mention the member for Bellwoods (Mr. Yaremko) who was Solicitor General, he gave a pathetic performance as well. Mr. Speaker, after he was named Solicitor General, I recall a great article in one of the newspapers that said he was going to be a fantastic crime fighter. His biggest contribution was chasing after pinball machines when he should have been looking at organized crime in this province. In fact, this was a pathetic situation. He was seizing pinball machines in the riding of the Provincial Secretary for Justice who kept telling him, “Stay away from my riding and quit seizing those machines.” It was, in fact, Mr. Speaker, a ridiculous situation. It was obvious, as well, that the Ontario Provincial Police had very little confidence in him.", "It’s unfortunate, Mr. Speaker, that since 1971 the lack of excellence and the lack of calibre in the Justice section have really done irreparable damage to the administration of justice in this province. This excellence was established by the former Attorney General, Mr. Wishart, who had the confidence of the judges and the confidence of the law enforcement people. In fact, he must have been a genius since he was at the same time Solicitor General, Attorney General and Provincial Secretary for Justice. Things used to work pretty smoothly there. Everybody seemed to be relatively pleased at the administration of justice at the time. All of this, Mr. Speaker, has really gone down the drain. It’s very unfortunate that there has not been more talent and more capability in the Justice section.", "One of the major mistakes, Mr. Speaker, made by the hon. member for York Mills as Attorney General was his lack of sensing the pulse of the importance of some of the recommendations of the Law Reform Commission. First of all, he sat on the report of the Law Reform Commission for something like eight to 10 months. Then finally, when he presented it, if you recall, Mr. Speaker, he made a lengthy statement. One of the things that he was very categorical about was the fact that in the administration of justice, the administration of the courts and the independence of the courts was something that should be kept under the Attorney General.", "I might just read some of the things that were said at the time by the Attorney General and some of the replies made by certain groups of individuals involved in the administration of justice. I recall, Mr. Speaker, back at the opening of the Supreme Court, at the 1974 assizes, the member for York Mills was reported to have made this statement: “Attorney General Dalton Bales has told the province’s judges and lawyers that the administration of the province’s courts will continue to be under the control of his ministry. Speaking at the formal opening of the 1974 Supreme Court assizes yesterday, Mr. Bales confirmed the government’s decision that the administration of the courts should remain under government control, despite recent suggestions that a quasi-independent body be set up to assume the function.”", "The reason I suggest it is especially important that the courts be absolutely independent, Mr. Speaker, has become obvious, I think, in the US. I think very few people will doubt the courage of, for instance, individuals like Judge Sirica, who was prepared to stand up to whatever pressures were exerted from above. I think the finest hour of the independence of the judiciary was pointed out in that situation, and it is extremely important here. If I might go on to read: “The treasurer of the Law Society told the assizes, however, that the structure of court administration must be viewed as long-range. Mr. Robins recalled that the Law Reform Commission recommended in its report that the court administrator should not be part of Mr. Bales’ ministry. Mr. Robins said the benchers and Law Society have expressed concern that Mr. Bales’ proposal would not adequately protect the independence of those who will be responsible for the administration of the courts.”", "The Attorney General had said at the time, Mr. Speaker: “In making this decision [in other words, to keep the courts under his administration] we were mindful of the obvious need to maintain an independent judiciary, and have on several occasions stressed that it is not our intention to interfere with, or to attempt to influence in any way, adjudicative functions of a judge.”", "Well, that’s a sham, Mr. Speaker, and I intend to point out how in a trial in Ottawa the Attorney General of the time, the member for York Mills, abused the great powers that are given to him under the Criminal Code, and in fact used the judge and the provincial court as a tool of the prosecution when they are supposed to be independent.", "Mr. Speaker, if I might show how he abused this process, this trial involved the prosecution conducted by the special Crown. In other words, these people are working right out of the department in Toronto. The special Crown in this case was Ian Cartwright. I intend to show, Mr. Speaker, that through the administration, the whole process, and the conducting of this particular trial, the Crown was biased; that this, in fact, turned into a personal vendetta between the Crown and one of the accused in the case, and that the Attorney General was used in the case -- or I should say, misused in the case -- in the sense that, as I suggested before, the officials of his department, not knowing what was going on, used the powers that he had to try in fact to further the trial.", "Mr. Speaker, the trial involved the Queen versus one Leopold Neilsen, one Jason “the Wolf” Wentzell, and one Warren Joseph Smith. This involved 37 counts of fraud against Neilsen and one count of possession of a cheque obtained by fraud; 18 counts of fraud; 18 counts of fraud against Wentzell, and 17 counts of fraud and one count of possession against Smith. This was a joint charge with Neilsen. This was all in one information.", "Wentzell was well known in Ottawa. He was a lawyer, a well-known practitioner in Ottawa and he has been a former alderman in the city of Ottawa. Wentzell had acted as a lawyer for a company called All Grads Group; in fact, this company was involved in a scheme whereby it was organizing university scholarships.", "Mr. Speaker, I don’t intend to challenge in any way the fact that there might have been a prima facie case to lay this charge in the first place, and that lawyers or former aldermen or anyone else are subject to prosecution like anyone else. But in this particular case, Mr. Speaker, I intend to show how, in fact, the provincial courts were abused, the provincial judge was used by the Attorney General’s department, it turned into a personal vendetta, immunity was granted to certain individuals, which does not exist under our judicial system, and there were certain other matters. I intend to point these things out as I go on with the trial.", "First of all, the accused got involved in the preliminary hearing. Two of the accused, Mr. Speaker, elected to proceed by way of judge and jury, and of course, the provincial judge at that point holds the preliminary hearing. The other accused elected to proceed by way of judge alone -- the provincial court judge. But the provincial court judge in this case had jurisdiction to send the three on to the preliminary hearing.", "The preliminary hearing was held in front of one Judge Michel who is a provincial judge in North Bay I think. Judge Michel is a fellow I know personally; he is, in fact, a former member of the Crown attorney’s office.", "It would appear obvious, Mr. Speaker, at the outset of this trial that Cartwright, the special Crown attorney, was out to get Wentzell. One of the ways to be sure of getting Wentzell involved or get a conviction against Wentzell was to taint Wentzell with the evidence of the other two, to try to keep the three accused together, especially one Neilsen who was obviously involved in this. Keeping Neilsen along with Wentzell would help in the prosecution because the jury would hear the evidence against Neilsen and would make some inference against Wentzell.", "The preliminary hearing began, Mr. Speaker, and at the outset of the preliminary hearing, three counsel were representing these individuals. They were well-known counsel in Ottawa: Mr. Arthur Cogan representing Mr. Wentzell; Mr. Ed Houston representing Smith; and a Mr. Shore representing Neilsen.", "Right from the outset of the trial it was obvious to counsel involved in this case that this was going to be a lengthy case and so they approached Cartwright and said to him: “Rather than get involved in a very lengthy preliminary hearing, why don’t you prefer an indictment? Why don’t you get the Attorney General to prefer an indictment now? We could go on to trial; we could save a lot of expense.”", "Unfortunately Cartwright was having nothing of the offer made by the three defence counsel. He felt that a preliminary hearing, if not helpful to the accused, would be at least helpful to his case. He used the preliminary hearing as a form of disclosure for himself.", "The preliminary hearing got going and they heard 14 days of evidence which is extremely lengthy for a preliminary hearing. What happened was that after 14 days they had an adjournment and one of the accused, Neilsen, was in custody. They forgot to bring him back every eight days for a remand and so lost jurisdiction over Neilsen. With Neilsen being charged jointly with the other two, and having lost jurisdiction over him, the Crown found itself in a real predicament. In fact, it looked as though the 14 days of evidence was going to go down the drain.", "But not for Cartwright. What he decided to do at this point was to present the new information and proceed with the new information against the three. Of course, both counsel for the other two accused objected to this. They said, “We’ve already heard 14 days of evidence in relation to our clients and there is no reason why we should have to start over; because with new information, if counsel did not consent, you would have to start the proceedings all over again.", "He tried to force this on and counsel brought a motion for prohibition in Supreme Court and before the motion was heard the special Crown attorney, Mr. Cartwright, withdrew the new information and decided to lay the new information against Neilsen. What he decided to do was to proceed with the other two accused, in whose case they had already had 14 days of evidence, and side by side put in Neilsen. It’s a procedure I’d never heard of but this was challenged right up to the Supreme Court of Canada and the court felt there was nothing improper about it.", "In any event, they proceeded side by side on both informations. Throughout this matter, Cartwright himself suggested to defence counsel that if there were 38 counts in this case he would not be proceeding to trial with more than seven or eight counts. I have correspondence, Mr. Speaker, which I intend to enter into the record which clearly shows this. He told counsel that even after two days or eight days of preliminary hearing or 14 days of preliminary hearing.", "These people kept saying to him -- first of all the counsel for Neilsen, who had been in custody for two years, said, “I’m prepared to plead guilty to these counts.” One would think, Mr. Speaker, that it would be a right in this society today for the accused, if he so decides, to plead guilty; he is entitled to that. But not in this particular situation because to plead guilty he would have to get the consent of the Crown to re-elect to plead guilty before a provincial court judge.", "Cartwright was not having any of this because he wanted to keep Neilsen along with the other two so he could taint them again -- keep the three together so that the evidence would be more overwhelming against the other two. He consistently refused this.", "Counsel for Smith as well was prepared to enter a plea of guilty but Cartwright, as I say, was not having any of this. In fact, counsel for Smith suggested that he plead guilty to one count and make restitution for $12,000, and, in fact, this will become significant when we see the sentence that was given to Smith at the end of the trial. In any event, Mr. Speaker, what happened was the preliminary hearing continued and they had 37 days of preliminary hearing, if you can imagine the cost, the length of time involved -- 37 days of preliminary hearing.", "At that point, Mr. Speaker, the provincial court judge, Michel, adjourned the matter to rule, first of all, on whether Neilsen, one of the accused, could plead guilty and secondly to rule on certain evidence and on whether the accused should be committed for their trial. He ruled that all evidence heard against Smith was actually not admissible and, in fact, only the evidence in relation to the one count -- the one count he had offered to plead guilty on -- was admissible. So he put the decision over for a few days to consider this.", "At that point counsel for the defence suspected that something was up. I got a phone call from his counsel who said, “I think the Attorney General is considering preferring an indictment.”", "What preferring an indictment means, Mr. Speaker, is that at that point that the Attorney General decides, and he has this power under the Code to say, “We say that these people are going on to trial. Never mind the preliminary hearing or anything else, we prefer an indictment before a grand jury.” The Attorney General has this power. Even before an election is made or anything else he can say, ‘We are preferring an indictment,” and take it up before grand jury and on to trial.", "But preferring an indictment is improper when you decide to embark on a course of a preliminary hearing. Once you decide to have a preliminary hearing it is highly improper to get involved in this; because you gave it to a provincial judge, he is the one who is going to rule on the evidence. I consider it unwarranted interference in a judicial process even to consider this.", "When I got word from defence counsel on this point I spoke to the member for York Mills. That was before he decided to prefer an indictment. I said to him, “I understand that this Mr. Cartwright is trying to get you to prefer an indictment.” And he said, “Yes, they are.”", "I said to him at that point -- this was right in the House -- “It’s highly improper for you to get involved in preferring an indictment at a time when you have heard 37 days of evidence, and a provincial judge has put the matter over to make certain rulings on the evidence to decide whether he should commit or not.”", "He said, “Yes, I consider it a highly volatile step -- a step that I will give serious consideration to.” He said, “You can rest assured that I’ll be looking at the situation very closely.”", "Well, two days later he preferred the indictment. I couldn’t believe it when counsel called me back and said, “He has decided to prefer an indictment.”", "Preferring an indictment, generally speaking, Mr. Speaker, happens at the outset. If the Attorney General decides at that point he is not going to have a preliminary hearing, he says, “Let’s prefer an indictment.” Or it happens sometimes, Mr. Speaker, when the magistrate discharges an accused and the Attorney General feels that he should go on to trial in any event.", "But preferring an indictment is a pretty bold step in any case; it’s seldom used. But preferring an indictment in the middle of a preliminary hearing is what I consider to be an unwarranted interference in the administration of justice.", "Mr. Speaker, this summer, I recall, there was a preliminary hearing in Kingston involving a murder where two accused were charged with murdering of another individual, and there was a lot of press about this situation. I recall reading the transcript of that. But what happened in that particular case, Mr. Speaker, was that the inmates who were witnesses against the accused were afraid to testify, and the Crown had not promised them either to try to hide their identity or to get them moved to other penitentiaries. And, of course, with the people refusing to testify at the preliminary hearing, the magistrate had no choice at that point to discharge both accused.", "So, at that point I wrote the Attorney General and said this is a case where he should prefer an indictment, because he could grant certain security to these witnesses from the other inmates; tell them that they can be sent to another penitentiary and then they will give their evidence. In fact what happened, Mr. Speaker, was that an indictment was preferred by the Attorney General, they had the trial and the accused were convicted.", "But in this particular case, it was after 37 days of preliminary hearing, Mr. Speaker. Can you imagine the cost of something like this? You have three accused, you have the whole administration of justice involved -- the judge, all the officials -- and he decides at that point to prefer an indictment.", "I asked the Attorney General, “Why did you do such a thing?” -- I walked right into his office and said, “I consider this highly improper. Why did you decide to prefer an indictment?”", "He said, “First of all, defence counsel were stalling proceedings by motioning us to death.” He said defence counsel were bringing on too many motions. And he said, secondly, “Some of the witnesses we were concerned about were not in good health and we were afraid that these witnesses would not be around and then -- “" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gaunt", "text": [ "They would die." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Yes, well that was what he was afraid of -- that is what I thought. He said: “We are concerned that time is of the essence. We have to proceed on with this.”", "And so, I want to deal with these two matters. There is the question of the health of the witnesses and the question of whether counsel were in fact abusing the process by bringing on these motions.", "Now, Mr. Speaker, if I might just bring some of these matters to the attention of the members here about these questions. First of all, there is counsel wanting to plead guilty, which I consider to be extremely unfair on the part of the Crown not to allow an individual to plead guilty on certain counts. And I want to read into the record, Mr. Speaker, a letter sent by Mr. Shore, who is counsel for Neilsen. The indictment took place some time in the early part of November, 1973. This is a letter written in May, 1973, to the Ministry of the Attorney General, 18 King St. E., Toronto, Ont., attention of Mr. Ian Cartwright.", "“Dear Sir:", "“Re: Leopold Neilsen versus Regina.", "“This will confirm our conversation outside No. 2 courtroom, 60 Waller St., Ottawa, on May 29, 1973, wherein you advised me that in the event of a formal committal, the Crown would proceed to trial on the count alleging illegal possession of a cheque [That’s one count.] obtained by fraud from William Shawley and five or six counts alleging fraud against the individual complainants.”", "Now, recall this is in May and the preliminary hearings weren’t for quite some time and at that point it’s on record that Crown counsel had said he was only proceeding with seven or eight counts. To continue with the letter, he said:", "“Due to Mr. Neilsen’s predicament, I advised you that I am prepared to seek instructions now with regard to a plea of guilty to these six or seven counts. You indicated that if Mr. Neilsen wishes to plead guilty, you are not prepared to withdraw any of the 37 counts which he is presently facing.”", "And of course, what defence counsel wanted at that point, Mr. Speaker, is to say: “Look, he’s going to plead to seven or eight counts. You withdraw the other 30 or so counts.” But you know, plea bargaining is something that is frowned upon. But in this case it was not really plea bargaining, because Crown counsel had advised that they would not be proceeding with the 30 counts at the trial in any event. He goes on to say:", "“As the trial is not likely to take place until at least the fall, some four months hence, and because Mr. Neilsen has been in custody since June 2, 1972, it is grossly unfair, in my opinion, to prosecute my client on 37 counts when he may be prepared to plead to the six or seven counts on which you will be proceeding a trial.", "“In the event that Mr. Neilsen does plead guilty at a later stage, I intend to introduce into evidence this letter in mitigation of a sentence.”", "Well, obviously Cartwright refused this. What happened in fact, Mr. Speaker, is that the election that he wanted to make to plead guilty, which the provincial judge was supposed to rule upon, was annulled by the preferring of the indictment by the Attorney General.", "What Neilsen had done originally was that he had elected to be tried by a provincial judge.", "And Mr. Shore goes on to say in the letter to myself dated March 4, 1974:", "“His election was declined and he was ordered to undergo a preliminary inquiry, although he was in custody at the time and has been in custody since June 2, 1972, when he was arrested in Florida. On Oct. 25, 1973, a formal application for re-election in order to plead guilty to a draft indictment which had been prepared by the Crown ... “", "In fact, the Crown had prepared the draft indictment for trial. And so, having seen the draft indictment, he said “I’ll plead guilty before the provincial judge to these counts.”", "“The presiding judge adjourned the application one week for a decision when the Crown would not consent to same. The next day the Hon. Mr. Bales, then Attorney General, preferred an indictment against all three accused, thereby effectively nullifying Mr. Neilsen’s application to plead guilty before the judge who had heard over 30 days of evidence on a preliminary inquiry.”", "It seemed to make sense that he would plead before the provincial court judge who had heard all the evidence.", "So, Mr. Speaker, this is one of the first things that I consider highly improper in not allowing an accused to plead guilty. I consider that highly unfair.", "Now, the second point made on this is the health of the witnesses. I intend to read into the record, Mr. Speaker, certain letters written by the special prosecutor in this case to his chief witness, whose health he was concerned about. The chief witness was Robert J. Clendenin, a corporation lawyer in Monmouth, Ill., who was involved in the scheme in the United States; and, of course, he was a very valuable witness for the Crown in the prosecution.", "On Sept. 6, 1973, Cartwright, counsel for the Attorney General, wrote this man a letter trying to get him to come and give evidence in Ottawa. One of the things he said to Mr. Clendenin at that time was:", "“I am deeply concerned about the question of your health [I am reading from the tetrel dated Sept. 6, 1973] and I wonder if I could impose upon you to ask if you would outline to me, in a letter, your age and your current state of health and also any difficulties that you encountered when you came to Ottawa last November.", "“My reason for it is that I would like to draft an affidavit and send it down to you to be sworn and returned to me so that I may put it before the court on Oct. 30 on my motion to have the trial proceed at that time. Could you please provide me with the particulars of your jurisdiction in order that I may properly draft this affidavit?", "“I hope that you do not feel that this is an imposition. I am certainly very grateful for your assistance.”", "He is trying to get Clendenin to say that he is not well so he can have an affidavit and thereby sort of justify to the Attorney General the preferring of the indictment and, secondly, justify to the Supreme Court judge that this trial should proceed expeditiously because he has some sick witnesses.", "Mr. Clendenin replied to Mr. Cartwright on Sept. 28, 1973, in a letter from Monmouth, Ill. He stated as follows, Mr. Speaker;", "“Dear Sir:", "Since your letter of Sept. 6, 1973, I have not received volumes one and two of the transcript of my testimony taken in Ottawa in November, 1972. As soon as the date has been firmed for the trial involving the records of Educational Development Services Inc. [this was one of the companies involved in the scheme] and you have determined when my testimony will be taken, I would respectfully request that you send me by registered, certified mail a subpoena requesting my attendance at the hearing.”", "He went on to say:", "“At present my health is good for a man of 69 years of age, and I would be reluctant to sign an affidavit for the sole purpose of attempting to accelerate any trial. The only difficulties I had with the hearing last November was the necessity of standing on my feet for several days in a witness box, since my circulation is not as good as in my youth. I also managed to catch a bad cold and possibly the flu, which winds up later with some congestion in my lungs.”", "Mr. Clendenin clearly stated at that point that there was nothing really wrong with his health and that he was not prepared to sign an affidavit to play into the special prosecutor’s hands. This was one of the reasons given to me by the Attorney General for preferring the indictment, the health of a witness. To my knowledge there was no other witness who was sick or had any problems in this case. He must have been referring to Mr. Clendenin, but it is obviously not the case that there is something wrong with the health of that witness.", "Mr. Speaker, if I might point this out, Cartwright clearly stated in a letter of Sept. 11 that he did not intend to proceed on 38 counts but only on seven or eight counts. In his letter to Mr. Clendenin of Sept. 11, 1973, he stated:", "“I have decided that for a trial only a certain number (probably about seven) of charges of fraud will be heard, and one charge of possession of a cheque fraudulently in the United States will be heard. My reasoning is that it is senseless to have a trial of some 38 counts when, if anyone is convicted, he will get the same sentence for seven charges as he would for 38. [Well, that seems to make sense.] Another effect of this would be to shorten the overall length of the trial, which should make it considerably easier for a jury to understand the evidence.”", "What had they been doing, Mr. Speaker, wasting their time at the preliminary hearings? They had gone 37 days on 38 counts, and the Crown counsel himself admitted that he had no reason to go on to the trial on this many counts. He just intends to go on with seven or eight counts. He has refused to plead guilty by counsel or be prepared to plead to some of these particular offences, because it appears very clear that what he wants to do is keep these three cases together on for trial. He has successfully accomplished this by getting the Attorney General, as I said earlier, to prefer an indictment.", "Just to give you some idea at the attitude of Crown and defence counsel in this particular case -- and I suppose that there was some animosity on both sides -- Cartwright on page 2 of his letter of Sept. 11 states: “I anticipate that on Tuesday, Oct. 30, counsel for all three accused will make numerous and lengthy objections as to everything under the sun, including perhaps the absence of any coat racks for them in counsels’ changing room.” So you can see there is animosity going on between Crown and defence counsel in this case.", "In any event, Mr. Speaker, the other reason given for the Attorney General for preferring the indictment is that he was being motioned to death by counsel. The only motions brought by counsel, Mr. Speaker, were, first of all, a motion brought by the two counsel, when Cartwright attempted to get these people on a new information, and that seemed like a valid motion because at the time they already had 14 days of preliminary hearing and why should they start all over again on a new information? In fact, that motion was granted. That was one of the motions that the member for York Mills was talking about.", "The second motion was brought by counsel for Neilsen when they tried to put a new information against this man and run it jointly with the other information because you will recall that he was starting afresh after 14 days of evidence. In fact, the judge said, “We will just continue on as we have already heard 14 days of evidence,” although they had lost jurisdiction on him. They went right up to the Supreme Court of Canada on this. I have the transcript or the factum from the Supreme Court on this particular motion. In fact, three judges of the Supreme Court of Canada granted the appeal. I shouldn’t say they granted the appeal but they allowed a motion for an appeal. So if there was no merit whatsoever in the motion, why would three judges of the Supreme Court of Canada even let the full court hear this particular appeal?", "The third motion, Mr. Speaker, was dismissed with reluctance. It involved another motion which was pending before the Supreme Court when the Attorney General decided to prefer his indictment. As I said before, Mr. Speaker, after all this work was done by the provincial court, after the provincial court judge was seized with this matter and the matter had been put over for adjudication, the Attorney General decided to prefer the indictment. As I said before, Mr. Speaker, I consider it highly improper to have done so.", "The next step then is that they go on for 30 days of trial, if you can imagine that, Mr. Speaker. They have already had 37 days of preliminary hearing in this case. They went on for another 30 days of trial. The result of the trial, I might point out at this point, was that Wentzell, the person who Cartwright was after, was acquitted. He was acquitted completely. Neilsen, who had attempted to plead guilty on seven counts, was allowed to plead guilty at that point because Cartwright could no longer deny him the right to plead guilty when he got him before the Supreme Court. He pleaded guilty to the seven counts and was sentenced, I think, to two years. Smith was found guilty on just the one count of possession, a count that he said he was prepared to plead guilty on, and was asked to make restitution for $2,000.", "One asks, what was this whole procedure of 37 days of preliminary hearings and 30 days of trial all about?", "It is clear that what happened in this case was a personal vendetta. It got out of hand. Crown counsel should always approach cases with respect, Mr. Speaker. He should approach cases from an objective point of view and never on a personal basis. It appeared that in this case it was a vendetta. It appeared to be an obsession on the part of special counsel to get Wentzell. Can you imagine the terrific cost of preliminary hearings of 37 days and 30 days of trial? I would think that this trial would have cost somewhere upwards of $500,000.", "In this information, Mr. Speaker, from certain information that I have here apparently the Crown would only enter evidence favourable to the Crown, and that should never be done. Crown counsel’s role is to present the evidence to the judge, or to the jury, but he should never withhold evidence which might be favourable to the accused. I understand that this was done in this case.", "More important, Mr. Speaker, if one was charged as a lawyer acting for the company, why was not the accountant who signed all the cheques and was very much involved with the administration of the company also charged? The accountant in this case was named Robert Murray. He was a very important witness in this case.", "What happened was that he was brought in to testify, and of course he testified under the protection of the Canada Evidence Act. His counsel, at that point, said, “What about any charges that might flow against Mr. Murray?” -- because he was involved with all these people -- and Crown counsel said, “I assure you that there will be no charges laid against Mr. Murray.”", "In fact, what he was doing was granting him immunity. Well, immunity is not something that is known under our system of justice, Mr. Speaker. It is done in the US -- you had a situation where you had Dean testifying before a committee -- but it’s not something that is germane to our system of justice. If a witness co-operates with the Crown, obviously this is a factor to be taken into account if he is charged, and is a factor to be taken into account on sentence only, not whether he’s going to be charged or not. Because this is a prima facie case against him. But apparently the Crown in this particular case granted him immunity and I suggest, Mr. Speaker, there is no authority for this.", "The part that is frightening, Mr. Speaker, and it comes back to my original point, is that when you have a weak Attorney General who is being bossed around --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. C. E. McIlveen (Oshawa)", "text": [ "Where has the member for Grey-Bruce (Mr. Sargent) been." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "We’ll have some order around here now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. F. Laughren (Nickel Belt)", "text": [ "Here’s a law and order Speaker if ever I saw one." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. McIlveen", "text": [ "The member for Grey-Bruce will keep some order around here." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order. Do you want to vote now?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am coming to the end of the anatomy of this trial. The point I was trying to make was that these special Crowns working out of Toronto -- and I have great respect for many of them. Very competent individuals, Mr. Manning, Mr. Powell, all very capable individuals we’ve heard about -- have great powers and have the resources of the whole Attorney General’s department. Decisions made by them are seldom challenged because they’re always working on special prosecutions, prosecutions which are very complex. But it’s important that the Attorney General keeps an eye on these people, because nobody is really there to check on them.", "The only check that there is, Mr. Speaker, is an independent court, a court that will keep them in line. And when the Attorney General participates, and when you have a situation like this, with the help of the Attorney General you really abuse a process that you embark on at a preliminary hearing. I can’t emphasize this enough, that when a judge is seized with a case and he’s going to hear it, then our courts should have the independence to hear the evidence and make a decision on it, and the Attorney General should not interfere at that point. It’s highly improper.", "So I think this matter should be looked into, and, obviously, not looked into by someone in the Attorney General’s department. They shouldn’t be investigating themselves. We’ve had that happen too often. I think the matter should be looked into by either a judge of the Supreme Court or a judge of the county court, because, as I say, there is really no one to check on these individuals. First of all, very few people even know they exist or that this area exists. They have this great power and there’s no check on it unless you have a very competent and capable Attorney General." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "It sure ain’t easy." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Right. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. And so, I think there should be a judicial inquiry into this whole case, to look at this and to bring these matters out, as to what happened in this case. And I would suggest first of all, in the investigation of this case, that they look into the attitude of the Crown. Because it’s important that the Crown keeps his objectivity throughout. The minute that the Crown loses his objectivity and it becomes a personal vendetta, there’s no room in our system of justice in Canada for this.", "We’ve seen too many DAs in the US who are packing a gun and trying to look like hotshots, trying to be effective to make sure that they’re going to be re-elected the next time. Because, as you know, Mr. Speaker, these people down there are elected, whereas here in Canada these people are named and they won’t be jeopardized whether they get a conviction or whether they don’t get a conviction. And because of that system, Mr. Speaker, complete objectivity should rule on the part of the Crown.", "The judicial officer or the judge looking into this should look into the question of preferring indictment. This is a fantastic power that the Attorney General has, and if it is abused -- and especially if you have a weak Attorney General and these individuals talk the Attorney General into the abusing of this -- then it hurts the administration of justice.", "We should be looking at the question of granting immunity. Since when does that exist in our system of justice, granting immunity to individuals? Not in so many words; he’s not saying “You’re granted immunity,” but he’s saying, “There will be no charges laid against you.”", "We should look as well at the question of offering evidence which is only favourable to the Crown. This is a very bad practice as well. The Crown counsel is an officer of the court. He should be offering evidence which is favourable not only to the Crown but to the defence. It’s to be remembered again that the Crown has all the resources of the OPP and investigators at its fingertips. Money is no question. If it uncovers evidence which might be favourable to the defence it should let the defence know about this.", "Finally, Mr. Speaker, what I consider to be highly improper is the Crown refusing to allow an accused to plead guilty. In other words, refusing to let an accused plead guilty, when he is prepared to plead guilty on counts the Crown intends to prefer in any event. I consider that to be an abuse of the process, and I think this matter should be looked into fully.", "I know one shouldn’t make comments about individuals who find it extremely difficult to defend themselves but, on the other hand, these practices are going on and I think it’s in the public interest, especially when taxpayers’ moneys are being used and when the administration of justice is at stake, to let the public know exactly what happens. It comes back to my point that it’s important our courts be completely independent. Members will recall some time ago we decided to split the question of police and prosecution. We put the police under the Solicitor General. This was a very positive step in my opinion, Mr. Speaker, because we were separating this function.", "What does it appear like to the public when the same boss is the boss of the judges and the boss of the prosecution? I have talked to provincial court judges and they feel uncomfortable in this situation, especially with some of these special Crown attorneys who say to the judge, “I think you should convict” or “I think you should commit someone for trial.” The judge doesn’t agree and the special Crown attorney goes back and talks to his boss in Toronto or to the deputy, Mr. Callaghan, or somebody and says, “This character in Sudbury” -- or somewhere else -- “is not co-operating with us. He gives me a bad time every time I go there.”", "What do members think the deputy Attorney General or the boss says when these fellows come back and ask for a pay raise or want to talk about their pension or something; or they want to talk about attending a convention somewhere? These people feel they are in a very uncomfortable situation when we don’t have the split. I think it’s important, Mr. Speaker.", "I was glad to hear that the new Attorney General is giving certain consideration to having it split and to having a situation as they have in the federal courts of Canada, where the administration of the courts is something which comes under the chief judge. They keep their complete independence and we’ve seen with Watergate, how important that can be and how important it is to have a judge who could act completely independently and not submit to pressures from above." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gaunt", "text": [ "Hydrogate." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would like to mention --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gaunt", "text": [ "Cartwright? A good start." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Pardon me?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gaunt", "text": [ "Cartwright was on this? He’s got a bad record. He handled the raspberry case and he lost that one." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker.", "Another reason I think it’s extremely important to have this independence aside from this trial and aside the fact that we have a situation in which provincial court and county court judges have the same boss -- at least county court judges’ salaries or their pension are not dependent on the provincial government but the provincial judges’ are -- is we have a bill which is going to come into force in this country called -- I don’t really know -- we call it the wiretapping bill. As you know, Mr. Speaker, it’s probably going to come into force around June 1 or sometime in the month of June. Great powers are given in this bill to police and to certain judges and this power must be exercised wisely.", "I had occasion to attend the seminar on this bill at Osgoode Hall some two weeks ago. We had probably one of the reigning experts in the world on wiretapping, Sam Dash, who was special counsel on the Irwin committee. His views of the bill were that in this country we are embarking on a very dangerous experiment because in the US they have had such a bill since 1968 which gives less power than our wiretapping bill. After Watergate they’re having second thoughts on whether priorities should be given to privacy.", "In 1968, when Nixon came in he thought that privacy was not important and that security was the important thing and they passed this particular bill. It was called a safe streets Act or bill -- something along this line. Dash says they are giving serious consideration in 1974 to doing away with this particular bill because of the powers given. One of the problems under the bill, as Mr. Dash said, was that too many powers were given. What happens after a while is that the judges who are granting the police jurisdiction to tap become a rubber stamp, and they are granting permission as a matter of course.", "The reason that it can happen in this particular province, Mr. Speaker, is this. First of all, under the wiretapping bill -- and I have had the occasion to go through it in depth -- is that the people at the federal level don’t seem to have appreciated the fact that we have made a split here, that the Solicitor General is in charge of investigation here. They keep talking about the Attorney General being the one who is going to designate people to do the tapping of phones or whatever method they use. He says that it is the Attorney General, so that has not been recognized by the federal level.", "The second thing about this that concerns me greatly, Mr. Speaker, is that you must remember that approval for wiretapping is just like giving a blank warrant. The basis of obtaining permission for wiretapping is the basis of getting what is called search warrants. When you get a search warrant you are looking for something specific. You go into somebody’s home on June 12 and you are looking for a gun; you are looking for something else, and that is it; that is the finish of this warrant. If you want another warrant you have to go out and get one.", "Permission for wiretapping on the other hand is like a general warrant. You put the tap on and you leave it there for 30 days and you can hear conversations about all sorts of things. And if you haven’t heard something for 30 days you get an extension; you get it for another 30 days. So it is extremely dangerous to give police that kind of power.", "For the police to be able to tap they are going to have to go to either a Supreme Court judge or to a county court judge. Now what happens if they go to a county court judge?", "Half of the county court judges across this province are sitting on police commissions, and when the police force wants a particular warrant to go out and tap they go before the judge who sits on their commission. Now what sort of enthusiasm is the judge going to have to refuse them this particular warrant? Consider that, Mr. Speaker.", "We have raised it in this House before -- and I notice the former Solicitor General, the member for Bellwoods (Mr. Yaremko) is here. We have raised that matter before -- the inherent conflict that exists in having county court judges, or provincial court judges for that matter, sitting on police commissions. But it is extremely important in this wiretapping bill, because if our county court judges who are going to be granting these things are sitting on police commissions, and they refuse a warrant, at the next meeting of the police commission the chief is certainly going to tell the judge about maybe having missed out on a prosecution because he didn’t allow him to tap.", "So the only safeguard that the public is going to have under this particular bill, Mr. Speier, is that we have astute and independent judges, and that they look very closely at each particular application, and that these applications be detailed. Because, as I say, when you put a tap on somebody’s phone, when you decide to use that type of method of prosecution, really you have given a blank cheque to the police.", "I do not say the police in this country have abused this power but, you know, it was interesting because Sam Dash gave an indication at the meeting that the police very often don’t reveal how many taps they have made. They don’t reveal that at all. He gave as an example a very professional, very competent district attorney in New York. His name escapes me for the moment, Mr. Speaker, but this man is well known right across the US, and he used to continually report that there were about 300 taps in the city of New York in any given year. As it turned out he said that what, in fact, the police were reporting were only successful taps. In other words, when a tap was not successful they would not report and in fact, there were something like 20,000 to 25,000 taps in the city of New York.", "So if the police don’t decide to reveal this particular information, we are giving them a blank cheque. As I say, it is great powers that are given to them.", "Sam Dash, who I was extremely impressed with -- and as I say, he was an authority on this particular subject -- was explaining that wiretapping is not something that is a recent phenomenon. He said the overhearing of conversations, or the delving into the privacy of people, started in the Bible; and, as he explained, when the first telegraph pole went up a wiretapper probably climbed it as well. So one generation has a tendency to forget the mistakes of the other. He says we are embarking on a dangerous experiment. The point has to be made, Mr. Speaker, now that we have the report on the police and the police commissions that has just come down. I would like the Solicitor General to give us an undertaking -- in fact, I think he has given such an undertaking -- that judges no longer will be sitting on police commissions, but I also think that the judges who are presently sitting on police commissions should be asked to leave." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. Sargent (Grey Bruce)", "text": [ "Right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "They should be taken off the police commission. That is all I have to say at this time about the independence of the courts in terms of matters that are of great concern to me and that certainly should be looked into.", "If I might, Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak briefly in French on a problem that is of concern to me, and one that is also of great concern to other people especially in certain areas of the north and eastern Ontario as well as Ottawa. It is the matter of the use of French in the courts.", "You will recall, Mr. Speaker, that in the 1972 Throne Speech this government promised to encourage the use of French in the courts. I was extremely disappointed to read about the member for that great northern riding -- what’s the riding?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Thunder Bay." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Thunder Bay -- when, subsequent to asking a question, he was advised that people would be charged for translation. Well, that really encourages people to communicate with their members in their own language! In fact, it is a great deterrent." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. A. Paterson (Essex South)", "text": [ "The NDP has no bilingual secretaries?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "It shows the degree of commitment that they make." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Yes, the real degree of commitment on the part of this government. I think it is such a retrograde step that I can’t find words to condemn such a practice. What does one tell an individual who wants to communicate with his member or with the government in his own language?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "We’ve got lots of bilingual secretaries." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Consider what would happen if they tried to do something like that in Quebec. Imagine the hue and cry in the Province of Quebec if an English Canadian wrote to the provincial government or his member and was told that he would have to be charged for his letter to be translated into French. Can you imagine what would happen, Mr. Speaker? This government seems to be prepared to accept that approach. I can’t find words to condemn something as retrograde as this." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "Most offensive." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "The other problem, of course, Mr. Speaker, is that it is especially ironic in the area of the city of Ottawa. An accused person in the city of Ottawa who is charged with an offence might be French-speaking, often the officer will be French-speaking, as will the judge and the Crown and defence counsel -- but they can’t speak a word of French in that court because the language of the courts is English only.", "But should that person cross the river into Hull, in the national capital -- and we consider Ottawa-Hull as the national capital -- there he would have a choice of languages: he could have his trial in French or in English. It is a ridiculous situation.", "In the riding of Prescott and Russell, where 85 per cent of the population is French-speaking and many of them have difficulty speaking English, the witnesses, the judge, the Crowns and all the court officials speak French. But because of this ruling, which I consider to be an idiotic ruling -- it’s the Judicature Act which says all proceedings shall be in English only -- these people, who can hardly speak English, are breaking their mouths trying to testify in English. And those who cannot speak English must have a translator to put it down in English for the record, although everybody understands what they are saying in the first place in French. It is an absolutely ludicrous and ridiculous situation.", "I have pointed this out a number of times. In 1969, in fact, as a defence counsel I challenged this section of the Judicature Act. Unfortunately, when I got into court to challenge, the Crown withdrew the charge against my client and I had no further case. That took care of that problem.", "In any event, Mr. Speaker, at the federal level, an Act called the Official Languages Act was passed; and at the time this Act was passed the provinces were told that French would be allowed in the criminal courts when the provinces were prepared to allow French in their civil courts. So this province has decided not to allow French in its civil courts, and of course we don’t have any French.", "I come back to the promise made by the Premier in the Throne Speech of 1972: When is the government going to do something about this absolutely ludicrous and ridiculous situation? We have officials who are capable of doing things. What’s the purpose of appointing bilingual judges or French-speaking judges if they are never going to hear any evidence in their own language? Isn’t that a ridiculous situation?", "And we continually keep doing that. We say we have problems if they should go to the court of appeal. None of these problems, Mr. Speaker, do I consider to be of sufficient importance to deny the people in that area their rights, you know. How in the hell are you going to convince the people in Quebec that advances are being made over here when they come into Ottawa? In Quebec they can have a trial in either language, but not if they come into Ottawa.", "And so, Mr. Speaker, this is the reason I will be presenting this bill which is going to be an amendment to the Judicature Act to try to assist the government in keeping their word and enforcing their policy which was in the Throne Speech." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "Long overdue." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, if I might briefly mention some of these matters in French.", "La question du français dans les Cours est une question qui me taquine depuis assez longtemps. M. l’Orateur, je trouve absolument ridicule qu’en 1974 on attend encore, nous les francophones de l’est de l’Ontario, ou du nord de l’Ontario, pour avoir le français dans les Cours quand il n’y a aucune raison justifiable pour ne pas nous permettre cela.", "Si vous vous rappelez, M. l’Orateur, dans le discours du Trône de 1972, le Premier Ministre de la province avait mentionné qu’on encouragerait l’usage du français dans nos Cours de justice. Moi j’avais l’impression que ce n’était pas quelque-chose qui devait prendre trop de temps, parce que dans la région d’Ottawa, dans la région de Prescott-Russell, peut-être dans certaines régions du nord de la province, on en a des francophones.", "On a des juges qui sont bilingues, on a des procureurs qui sont bilingues, on a des officiers qui sont bilingues. Et cependant tout le monde parlait en anglais dans les Cours, c’était une situation absolument stupide. Je n’ai jamais pu comprendre pourquoi on ne permettait pas l’usage du français ici.", "Je voudrais dire, M. l’Orateur, que ce qu’on préconise n’est pas une question de changer la province de l’Ontario, demander qu’une personne dans la région de Durham ici en Ontario, ou au centre de Toronto ait un procès en français. Mais c’est un fait que dans certains secteurs ou on a 50, 75, 85 pour cent de francophones et qui se trouvent près des frontières de la province de Québec, on ne peut même pas avoir un procès en français. Je trouve cet état de chose, M. l’Orateur, absolument ridicule.", "À ce sujet je voudrais mentionner qu’en 1969 je défendais un individu, un francophone de Vanier. Le procureur dans la cause était français; moi-même je parlais français. Le juge était bilingue, le procureur est devenu juge plus tard, c’est M. Vincent. C’était la police de Vanier ou tous les officiers parlaient français. Je me suis dit: “Je ne vois aucune loi qui m’empêcherait d’avoir un procès en français, à part la loi que j’ai déjà mentionnée, la loi sur nos statuts qu’on appelle Judicature Act.”", "De toute façon, M. l’Orateur, j’ai décidé de procéder en Cour avec cette cause-là et demander au juge pour avoir un procès en français. Ce qui est arrivé c’est que, au moment où j’allais plaider ma cause en français, la couronne a retiré l’accusation centre l’accusé et comme de fait je n’avais plus de cause.", "Ce qui arrive depuis ce temps-là, M. l’Orateur, c’est qu’en 1970 on a passé une loi qui s’appelle la loi sur les langues officielles. Vous savez que le Fédéral a juridiction en matière criminelle ici et permet l’usage du français dans toutes nos Cours fédérales. Ce qui arrive c’est que la Province a juridiction sur la procédure de nos Cours et le Fédéral a la juridiction sur la question des lois.", "Les provinces se sont objectées, certaines provinces peut-être avec raison. En Colombie ils ont dit: “Écoutez, en Colombie britannique, ou peut-être à Terre-Neuve, on ne peut pas avoir un procès en français, on n’a pas les officiers on n’a pas le personnel qui permettrait d’avoir un procès en français.” Ce qui est arrivé, M. l’Orateur, c’est que le Fédéral a fait une concession aux provinces. Et on leur dit au Fédéral: “On ne passera pas le français dans nos Cours de justice au Criminel tant que vous ne serez pas prêts à permettre l’usage du français dans vos Cours civiles.” Malheureusement, ici en Ontario, on attend toujours qu’une décision soit prise par la province pour changer la loi que j’ai mentionnée, le fameux Judicature Act. Il n’y a aucune raison, M. l’Orateur, pour qu’on ne change pas cette loi et qu’on ne permette pas l’usage du français dans nos Cours.", "Une autre chose, M. l’Orateur, qui m’a extrêmement peiné, c’est de voir un de mes collègues, en Chambre ici, le député de Thunder Bay, qui avait mentionné qu’il avait reçu une lettre d’un de ses électeurs et que pour faire traduire cette lettre ici à la Province, on le forçait à payer. Pouvez-vous imaginer une situation aussi ridicule que quelqu’un qui veut communiquer avec son gouvernement provincial, qui vent communiquer avec son député, ne peut pas le faire dans sa langue quand on dit ici dans la Province qu’on permet l’usage des deux langues en Chambre. Je trouve cette situation absolument ridicule et j’espère que le gouvernement va la clarifier pour que si un individu veut communiquer avec son gouvernement dans une langue, il ne soit pas obligé de payer pour faire traduire cette lettre.", "Je peux imaginer ce qui arriverait, M. l’Orateur, si dans la province de Québec un anglophone écrivait a son gouvernement et qu’on lui répondait: “Si tu ne veux pas traduire ta lettre de l’anglais au français, on va te charger quelque chose.” C’est absolument ridicule, M. l’Orateur, et je voulais souligner cette situation et espérer que le gouvernement va changer ce fameux règlement.", "J’espère qu’il va aussi accepter le dicton de mon bill pour l’usage du français dans nos Cours.", "Mr. Speaker, having talked about the courts, I intend to embark briefly on the question of minority rights. There are a few I should mention. I have a number of things to say about women’s rights, for instance, and I was just wondering, it being 6 o’clock, whether I should move the adjournment of the debate and resume at 8 o’clock." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "If the hon. member finds this a convenient place for the member to break his remarks a motion is not necessary; he can resume at 8.", "It being 6 o’clock, p.m., the House took recess." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon W. Newman (Minister of the Environment)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I’d like to make a statement on the refuse-fired steam plant proposed for Toronto.", "Earlier today, Toronto Mayor David Crombie announced a proposed phase-out of Toronto Hydro-Electric’s Pearl St. steam generating plant, replacing it with one fuelled primarily by garbage.", "This new plant is part of a plan connecting five existing heating systems in the central area of the city. This plant would burn 1,200 tons of garbage each day and supply a steady source of steam for heating in the area. Peak demands would be handled by existing heating systems: the Toronto Hydro-Electric system of Terauley St., the Toronto Hospitals plant, the University of Toronto system, plus the Queen’s Park facility operated by the Ministry of Government Services.", "The province played a role in the preparation of this plan. The method used to calculate resulting changes in air pollution was developed by the Ministry of the Environment. An interministry committee is being established to evaluate these proposals. The committee will be composed of the Ministries of the Environment, Energy, Government Services, Consumer and Commercial Relations, Housing, Health, and Treasury, Economics and Intergovernmental Affairs, plus representatives from Ontario Hydro.", "Under the chairmanship of Wesley Williamson of the Ministry of the Environment, the committee will co-ordinate the preparation of a provincial response to this proposal and eventual reply to the city. The city’s report suggests that six months be set aside for submission of briefs from all interested parties, since the report, based on five volumes of technical data, would entail extensive policy decisions and changes in existing legislation.", "I would like to emphasize that this is a detailed analysis of the situation and I would like to commend the city of Toronto for its initiative in bringing forward this exciting approach. The Ministry of the Environment and the government of Ontario as a whole have tried to encourage this type of solution to waste management problems. It is heartening to note the development of proposals such as this by the city of Toronto that help accomplish resource recovery and refuse." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Oral questions, the hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of the Environment if this announcement, together with the consideration that he must have been giving other factors associated with the circumstances, would now lead him to make an announcement here in the House that he is not going to approve the application from CPR to dump Toronto garbage in Hope township?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "As I said before, Mr. Speaker, we are still waiting for a lot of technical data to come in on that site at this time. We are still studying it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. R. Good (Waterloo North)", "text": [ "Supplementary: Was not 1976 the time schedule for this steam plant operation on a crash course erection programme; or what is the proposed time schedule? Will the six months study delay the construction of it until people forget about it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, this is a new report which has just been handed to the city of Toronto. They have just released it this morning. We have set up an interministerial committee to study it to make recommendations back to the city." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scar- borough West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)", "text": [ "I am sorry, I may have missed it in his ministerial statement. Did the minister mention the quantity of garbage which would be used for the plant?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "Under 75 per cent." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Speaker, about 1,200 tons a day." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Twelve hundred tons a day. What happens to the other 7,500 tons?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I would like to ask the Premier, who is a noted and an accepted expert in sports, particularly football, if the signing of those three well-known Dolphins by the Northmen is going to prompt him to change his public stand on this matter? Does the Premier feel that he has a responsibility as the Premier to indicate a further review of this situation, or is he going to come down, as he has said previously, on the nationalism side?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. R. Rhodes (Minister of Transportation and Communications)", "text": [ "Ask Lalonde." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. G. Davis (Premier)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I sensed that when the hon. member for Sarnia (Mr. Bullbrook) asked me about this the other day he was really speaking in opposition to what the federal government was doing. At least that was the impression that I got from his question. My public posture, I think, has been, however, fairly clearly understood, and that is that I am a great supporter and have been for many years of the Canadian Football League. I think I have also said that, if the federal minister wishes to become involved in this matter and to restrict the franchise operation of the Northmen here in Metropolitan Toronto, that is a decision that he apparently has made and one for which he will have to assume the responsibility. It is not my intent to become involved as head of this government in that particular debate.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Does the Premier think John Bassett Jr. will find something else to play with?" ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would also like to ask the Premier if he can add anything further to the statement made by the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Bernier) when he announced over the weekend there was going to be a policy announced in the budget on April 9 which would establish a mineral exploration Crown corporation. Is there any further detail which could be provided in that regard and would it, in fact, mean that some of the tax reductions, which our natural-resource industries have been enjoying on the basis they would be used to increase their own resource explorations, would no longer be necessary?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, really there is only one gentleman who is privileged to know what is going to be in the budget statement next week. In that the Treasurer (Mr. White) is not here this afternoon but will be tomorrow, perhaps the Leader of the Opposition might put that question to him. I could only say this to him: I doubt that the Treasurer will answer the question in advance of the budget.", "I can only say that the government has been considering various ways and means to develop further the northern part of the Province of Ontario, particularly the mining industry. Whether the Minister of Natural Resources actually said that it would, in fact, be in the budget, I haven’t discussed with him. I can only say that the Treasurer really is the only one who at this moment knows what will be in there for next week." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A supplementary: In that the report said the Minister of Natural Resources said that the Crown corporation was approved and will be announced in the budget, does the Premier not feel it is incumbent upon him to bring to his colleague’s attention the fact that the matters in the budget are, in fact, privileged until such time as the Treasurer sees fit to release them?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "No, he is just flying a kite." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I don’t think, Mr. Speaker, that this is a matter which is necessarily privileged. I think, quite frankly there is some merit in consideration of this proposal." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. W. Martel (Sudbury East)", "text": [ "We have been pushing it for years." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I would be very surprised if the Minister of Natural Resources weren’t somewhat enthused. I think it is premature though, to say it has been approved and will necessarily find itself in the budget next week although that possibility, I am sure, does exist." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A supplementary: The minister was either misquoted or was incorrect in making the statement?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "It might have been either." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Sir, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Colleges and Universities. Is he aware that at Loyalist College in Belleville the scarce assignments for certain special courses are being approved by a lottery rather than approval being given to those student applicants with the best qualifications? Has he been informed of those circumstances and is he concerned about them in any way?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. A. C. Auld (Minister of Colleges and Universities)", "text": [ "No, I haven’t, Mr. Speaker. It sounds like an unusual method to me." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I thought so myself. A supplementary with further details; it has to do with the selection of nursing students and if the minister could inquire into that it would be of great usefulness as far as we are concerned." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A further question of the Premier having to do with the Kingston township situation: How can he square his statement on Thursday last, that he was unaware of the association of the present Minister of Industry and Tourism (Mr. Bennett) with the dissident group and the leader of the dissident group in the Kingston area, with the minister’s statement on Friday that he had informed cabinet of his relationship and had not participated in the discussion in cabinet while it was before that body?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the answer to that question is very simple. I wasn’t at cabinet when that was determined." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Okay. That’s all." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "And I checked." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Touché." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scar- borough West." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A question, if I may, of the Premier, Mr. Speaker: How does the Premier explain the discrepancy in the intended fuel and gasoline price increases to the consumers of Ontario, between the 7.14 cents per gallon which the increase he agreed upon actually represents, and the 10 cents per gallon figure which the oil companies are now talking about?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I can’t reconcile them at all nor do I intend to. I can only say to the House that the estimates prepared by the Ministry of Energy related to the increase incurred at the wellhead price and our estimates were three cents per dollar -- I think it was -- which would mean 7 1/2 cents going to $6.50. I would assume -- and I can only assume -- the rationalization being put forward by the oil companies, that this might mean something more than 6 1/2 or seven cents, would relate to any other costs they were bearing related to the production or the manufacture of the fuel. I can only assume that; we have no way of knowing. I want to make it clear that from our standpoint the wellhead price increase should be reflected, we say, by approximately 6 1/2 to seven cents." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well, fine. That’s interesting. Then since Energy, Mines and Resources in Ottawa has indicated that the oil companies would be entitled to perhaps an additional one-half cent per gallon to cover the non-crude related price increase, why are the oil companies talking of a jump to 10 cents, which is up to 2 1/2 cents more per gallon than they are entitled to? And why has the government of Ontario not yet called the oil companies to an accounting for what is clearly going to be an additional ripoff of the Ontario consumer? That’s explicit in their figures." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, we have debated this here before, and I know the next supplementary question will be, why doesn’t this government employ the device of price controls on the oil companies --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "No. Certainly rollbacks on the oil companies." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I can only say this to the hon. member, that if the Ottawa figures now represent another half cent --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Right!" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "-- for the non-crude increased cost as part of the oil companies’ additional cost, that’s fine, that’s their determination. Our determination was seven cents, and it still remains that. I can only assume, and I am only assuming this, that if there is something more, by one or two cents, it relates to the oil companies’ own increase in cost for other reasons --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "But I’ve allowed for the half cent." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "-- besides the question of the increase in crude.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Now, Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member is saying the oil companies are overcharging or adding two cents per gallon --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Yes, I am. I am." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "-- that’s fine. I am sure that he will be prepared to document this, and I’ll be very interested to see that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Has the Premier looked at their profit statements?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "We don’t have any of this documentation as of this moment." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)", "text": [ "Supplementary question, Mr. Speaker -- double- barrelled, really: The Premier will recall that his parliamentary assistant last June recommended that the Energy secretariat should examine the question of whether or not the powers of the Ontario Energy Board should be extended to involve price review. Presumably that is now being studied in the ministry. Has the Premier or the government received any recommendation as to an extension of those powers? And if not, why won’t Ontario now -- like, for example, Nova Scotia -- give price review powers to a provincial body, to get into precisely this kind of clarification of alleged ripoff in prices?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. T. P. Reid (Rainy River)", "text": [ "Especially since they are doing it for Hydro." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I believe the minister made some observation about this, and this was a matter of internal consideration by the ministry. I don’t believe any policy determination has been made. If there is, of course, it will be announced here to the House. But at this moment there hasn’t been that decision." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker, if I may: Does the Premier not feel it would be consistent, in view of what the government has done and is doing with the price review and justification of Hydro rates --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "And review of natural gas prices for a long time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "-- and natural gas, that it’s surely only an extension of a rational policy to extend it to the review of gas and oil rates?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, this is a very complex subject, and while on the surface it might appear to some that it was, shall we say, a logical extension, or the same --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "How can the Premier stand there and presume things?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order. Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Does the member want an answer, or does he not?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "I want an answer, but I won’t get one from the Premier." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "All right then. If he’ll sit back patiently, I will try to give the hon. member an answer. I think there is some degree of distinction. We are dealing with Ontario Hydro, with a public utility in the total sense of the word, whose activities are confined to the Province of Ontario --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "What about natural gas?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "-- whose task is to produce hydro at cost. We’re dealing, with respect to gas, with public utilities that are licensed here by the Province of Ontario where we do regulate rates. With the “gas” that is used in automobiles, etc., we’re dealing with oil companies which are part of the private sector, which have not traditionally had their increases reviewed, and which are operating on a national level. It’s not confined just to the Province of Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "It is time to change tradition." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "And I think that while there may be some merit -- and obviously the ministry feels this, because it is looking at it -- to say that they’re on all fours with Ontario Hydro is not totally logical." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "May I --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Thunder Bay." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Can the Premier give an assurance that any increase as a result of the recent announcement in Ottawa will be no greater in northern Ontario than it is elsewhere in the province?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would certainly like to give the hon. member that assurance. And, certainly from our standpoint, to the extent that all that was agreed upon in Ottawa was the increase in the cost of crude at the wellhead, I can see that decision not affecting the price on any, shall we say, percentage basis in northern or southern Ontario. I can’t see where the price of wellhead crude affects that differential." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Supplementary, if I may, Mr. Speaker --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I think that we should alternate the supplementaries." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "Is the Premier saying in effect, in answer to my original question, that he feels that Ontario Hydro, which is a public corporation, should have its rates reviewed when supposedly it is operating purely in the public interest, and the corporations dealing with oil and gas which are not operating in the public interest but in the private sector and to maximize their profits, should not have their rates and prices reviewed? And does he not feel that it’s really time, in this period of inflation, that the Ontario government got off its seat and did something about these matters -- break with the tradition?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, we are making a far greater effort to get off our seats with respect to inflation than the members opposite and their federal colleagues.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "What has this government done?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I don’t want to get into a debate here on inflation, but I think there is no question about it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. J. Bounsall (Windsor West)", "text": [ "Yet it’s a much tougher job." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)", "text": [ "This government couldn’t deal with it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "If those people across the House really want to come to grips with inflation why don’t they talk to their friends and relatives in the federal government and show the world they can do something about it?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "As a last resort." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "That’s a good phrase -- I like that. It’s all-encompassing.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Now, what did the member really ask me?", "The answer, I think, is very simple: No, I did not say that. All I said was the base for such a consideration or review as it relates to Hydro would in logic be different from gas." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, one last supplementary: Given the year’s profit increases of Shell Canada of 42 per cent, Texaco 30 per cent, Imperial Oil 45 per cent, BP 45 per cent, Gulf 39 per cent, Home Oil 115 per cent -- given those increases in profit structure and the announced intention of the oil companies to raise the prices by 10 cents in the middle of May --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "He shouldn’t support them. Right on." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. S. B. Handleman (Minister of Housing)", "text": [ "He shouldn’t support it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "-- why is the Premier not prepared to ask them to justify those increases, in the name of the Ontario --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Why is the Premier not prepared to ask them to justify those increases in the name of the Ontario consumer, since there is a discrepancy on the basis of the government’s own figures?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "The member for High Park (Mr. Shulman) hangs his head in shame." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)", "text": [ "The Premier knows the member has got him.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please. Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, that the NDP strikes such fear in the hearts of the government I can understand.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "But I offered to calm them. The election is 18 months off, let them be calm.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Can the Premier answer why he will not call them to justify their increases?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Of course, Mr. Speaker, firstly I didn’t say that we wouldn’t. Secondly, I would only make this observation -- and I would hope the member would be sufficiently knowledgeable to recognize that he’s dealing with national and international oil companies, but they’re dealing on a national basis. It’s fine to call them for review here in the Province of Ontario --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "But they’re selling their gas in Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Certainly they’re selling here --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "They’re selling it here in Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "-- but they’re selling in our sister provinces and I say with respect --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The Premier is supporting them.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order. Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "-- such a review has to be done on a national basis." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "The Premier is free to do it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "He lets them walk all over him." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "The Premier intervenes when Bell Canada makes application for a rate hike.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order. Order, please. Order. I’m sure that further questions will only constitute a debate on this matter. I think we’ve had quite sufficient.", "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I have a question that comes to mind as a result of the Premier’s declaration of support for Hydro. If he feels that Hydro is such a public --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. F. Laughren (Nickel Belt)", "text": [ "He doesn’t." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "-- corporation, publicly accountable, subject to review, then why will he not have tabled the engineering feasibility study done to justify the Arnprior dam? That’s also part of Hydro." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Energy (Mr. McKeough) has already dealt with this matter on a previous day." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "No, he hasn’t." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "By way of a supplementary: The Minister of Energy has thumbed his nose at the House and said that Hydro is not accountable. I’m asking the Premier, in view of his declaration about Hydro as a public corporation, will he have the report of the engineering feasibility study on the Arnprior dam tabled in the Legislature?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, that question should very properly be directed to the Minister of Energy who answered this question for the hon. member for Ottawa -- whatever it is and the islands -- some few days ago." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "What’s the point? There’s no point to asking, he has indicated the position he takes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Hydro is just as arrogant as the Minister of Energy." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A question, if I may Mr. Speaker, of the Minister of the Environment: Has the Minister of the Environment looked over his internal memoranda and correspondence within his ministry relating to the Maple Mountain project; and if he has, can he indicate why a memorandum dated Oct. 12, 1973, obviously worked on the premise that protection in the field of the environment would have to proceed during the construction phase of Maple Mountain; that is worked on the premise that Maple Mountain would proceed? Has the minister been informed already that it will proceed; and if so what does he know of it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have not been informed that it will proceed. The member talks about a memo of Oct. 12; the memo I have is dated Oct. 16. I hope we are talking about the same memo." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I guess not." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "He got an earlier draft." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "I think we are; but if the member would like to check it out, check the memo he has in mind." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I have the date in front of me for what it is worth." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "The memo I have is of a different date." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Okay, all right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "How about the minister tabling his?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "This is strictly an internal memo which recommends things that should be done. Members will recall we put out a green paper last year in which we indicated we will be bringing forward legislation to deal with matters such as this if they do proceed. This is just an internal memo with a lot of recommendations of things that should be done." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Okay." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "That is a non-answer." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "It doesn’t indicate anything at all. I am surprised, really, the hon. member opposite would make statements like he made in the paper, in the Globe and Mail or whatever paper it was in. If he has the same memo that I have I am surprised he would make statements like that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Fine. We’ll sit and wait for the ever-present announcement on Maple Mountain." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "He predicted the election as well." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "He made statements referring to it as being dishonest. It is not dishonest." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "May I ask the Minister of Natural Resources this question: In the memo within the Ministry of the Environment it says that Lady Evelyn Lake is “a relatively large and scenic lake presently used for wilderness canoeing, hiking and hunting.” It then says: “At the same time, Lady Evelyn is considered to be the major fishing resource for the Maple Mountain development.” Nothing equivocal about that. “A marina with docking and fuelling facilities for power boats and for float planes is proposed. The potential of petrochemical and noise pollution is a concern” -- and so on.", "Can I ask the minister what has his ministry to say about this intrusion on Lady Evelyn, given the policies the ministry is adopting in Algonquin Park for the preservation of lakes, precisely opposed to this?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. M. Havrot (Timiskaming)", "text": [ "The member better get his facts straight. Get the facts." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "The minister better protect the lady." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. L. Bernier (Minister of Natural Re- sources)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would tell the hon. member that we are asked to comment on a number of proposals that come forward and this is just a comment that we give as we do in a normal case." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, one last question, then, of the Minister of Government Services: Does the minister realize that he has sent out a price list, effective April 1, 1974, for translation services from his ministry which will provide a cost per word, in the translation of English to French, of nine cents a word for general translation, 12 cents a word for specialized translation, 15 cents a word for rush translation? Is this the government’s contribution to policies of bilingualism and biculturalism in Ontario? Is this part of his commitment?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "In Ottawa it is $1 a word." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. W. Snow (Minister of Government Services)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am not familiar with the exact per-word rates that are being quoted by the hon. member, but I would just say this is carrying out the policy of the government and the policy of my ministry of providing these services on a charge-back basis, or a zero budget basis, for that service." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "What does all that mean, zero budgeting?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "What does that mean?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Snow", "text": [ "If we do translation work for other ministries of the government, or other bodies, we charge at a rate that will cover the cost of operating that branch of my ministry." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Would the minister not agree that charging for translation service is in effect a deterrent, surely, to both ministries and members of this Legislature using this service?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. A. Grossman (Provincial Secretary for Resources Development)", "text": [ "It’s bookkeeping within the ministry.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "It is bookkeeping?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Snow", "text": [ "No, Mr. Speaker, I wouldn’t agree with that at all. It is part of the policy of carrying out that type of service on a charge-back basis and having each ministry responsible for the cost involved for their translation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "What about members?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "Can’t members opposite pay for something?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I received that notice from the Ministry of Government Services this morning. Is the minister aware that as the result of a letter I sent to the translation branch --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "To have translated." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "-- to have translated from French into English -- a letter that I received from a constituent -- I got back a reply saying they are going to charge me a minimum of nine cents per word for that translation? Am I going to pay that out of my own allowance in order to be able to communicate with one of my constituents?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "It’s cheap.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "The pressures are coming from the back row." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The minister is submitting to the pressures from his back row; that’s why he is doing it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "We can take care of it for them, if they like." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Snow", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, this again, as I have stated, is the policy of the charge back within the ministry." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Zero budget charge-back." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Snow", "text": [ "A zero budget charge-back for services within my ministry. These policies are set down by Management Board. We administer those policies. There are some instances of services that are provided to the member where there’s no charge for the service." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "That is quite a phrase." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Let the member’s party get a Frenchman elected. The Liberals have Roy." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. A. Stewart (Minister of Agriculture and Food)", "text": [ "He is not even here." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Snow", "text": [ "It has not been brought to my attention that this was going out to members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "But the minister is setting a charge now." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Snow", "text": [ "It certainly should have gone out to all government boards, commissions and ministries." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "What about members?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Snow", "text": [ "I will inquire into how it came about that this went to members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Why anybody? Why put a charge on?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "Doesn’t the member’s party have someone who can translate French into English?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order. A supplementary over there?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please. Does the hon. member for Scarborough West have further questions?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "No." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Minister of Housing has the answer to a question asked previously." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have the answer to a question asked by the hon. member for Sudbury (Mr. Germa) concerning the installation of communication systems in senior citizen buildings. Systems of this nature are not required under the National Building Code. However, the National Research Council is considering the possibility and is now looking into the possibility of installing them.", "In OHC senior citizen buildings there is a communication system between the lobby, the apartments and the resident caretaker’s unit. However, if we installed a public address system which was accessible, there could be some problem because there could be misuse and disruption and confusion. If it is not accessible, of course, it couldn’t be used under certain circumstances.", "Our senior citizen housing is designed for persons who are able to care for themselves. However, we always try to consider the special needs of this segment of the population, and the safety of the tenants is of the utmost importance. I have instructed the board of directors of OHC to review the matter and to advise me as quickly as possible and also to look into the practice of other jurisdictions where these systems are mandatory, such as in the publicly supported senior citizen housing in the United States." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Minister of Colleges and Universities." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Auld", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, subsequent to the question from the Leader of the Opposition --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Great to have him back!" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Auld", "text": [ "-- I was going through my mail and I came across the copy of the press clipping of the Globe of March 28 and the memorandum of Feb. 1, 1974, of the ministry to all colleges of applied arts and technology requiring admission requirements.", "Apparently -- and I’ll get further detail on this -- since 1966 the legislation governing requirements for nursing has specified only grade 12 plus two credits in science. Previously some hospitals apparently had a grade 13 requirement and some went with grade 12, which is that which the profession recommends and which the colleges have now adopted.", "Selection is the responsibility of the colleges, and I gather that there has been a large number of applications at Belleville. I think the lottery that the hon. Leader of the Opposition referred to has to do with what the press referred to as a computer lottery. In the ministry’s memorandum, we set out assessment of the suitability, 19 years of age, likelihood of successful completion, and background, as well as the academic record. What I assume from this memorandum and the material in the press story is that there was a large number of applications, that they are being put through a computer to pick out all those who would qualify under the directive, then there would be the personal assessments and so on.", "I think that what is referred to as a lottery is really a preliminary screening, and the basis of part of the problem is that the teachers of a number of people with grade 13 thought those students should have preference over those with grade 12, and the college and the ministry have said that if they have grade 12 and two science credits, which are the requirements that students would know about, then they should have the same opportunity as students with grade 13." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "It’s great to have him back." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Supplementary question, Mr. Speaker: Is the minister advising us that his ministry is unable to attend to preliminary screening with a personal interest, and are these things to be done by computer in future?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Auld", "text": [ "Well, I am delighted to respond to that. It seems to me that computer selection of specific written requirements is a faster way of doing it than having a person go through a pile of papers. I would say that the personal assessment is still important, though, but the ministry, as I say, is not responsible for the selection other than the broad guidelines." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I think the hon. member for St. George was up first." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mrs. M. Campbell (St. George)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, my question is of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations. Could he advise whether he proposes to have any of his staff present at the meeting on April 8 to discuss the matter of house warranties, as requested, I understand, by the federal government?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. T. Clement (Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations)", "text": [ "Yes, I do intend to have staff present, Mr. Speaker, in the person of my head legal officer, Mr. Ciemiega, in the person of Mr. Graham Adams, the man who has been involved in the building code, which has been a subject of discussion between the hon. member and myself for some time, and one additional member who has not yet been selected." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Windsor West." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "A question of the Minister of Colleges and Universities, Mr. Speaker:", "In light of the Canadian-American psychology graduate student admission situation at the University of Windsor, does he not think that there should be some overall, province-wide criterion of admission for graduate students, perhaps discipline by discipline, to determine whether the GREs apply or do not apply, or in what percentage? If the answer is yes to that, would he ensure that the various disciplines are brought together for the purpose of devising and deciding upon common admission standards to the various graduate departments?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Auld", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I do have a comment on that one." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Oh yes? The minister planted the question, did he?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Auld", "text": [ "No, but I was aware of it.", "Basically, as the hon. member is aware, this is an internal matter that the university would handle. However, I am informed by the university that the process of selecting applicants for the clinical psychology programme, which is the one to which the hon. member refers -- and I understand that he was at a meeting on Saturday afternoon with some of the students -- the process of selecting applicants for that course has not yet been completed.", "A subcommittee of the psychology department has forwarded its recommendations to the department’s admissions committee. I am informed that when they have been reviewed by the admissions committee, they will be forwarded for final approval to the dean of graduate studies.", "There are 16 places in this clinical psychology programme, not 11 or some of the other things that one of the students indicated in the press. The subcommittee has recommended acceptance of seven students for the master’s programme and nine for the PhD programme, a total of 16.", "The seven students recommended for the MA, the undergraduate programme, are all Canadians. Of the nine students recommended for the PhD programme, five are Canadian, three US and one British. Five recommended PhD candidates are graduates of the University of Windsor.", "In addition, six students, including five Americans, were accepted for a makeup year to bring their qualifications to the level required for entry to either the MA or the PhD programme. However, successful completion of the makeup year provides no guarantee of subsequent acceptance into post-graduate programmes.", "The subcommittee itself -- this is the one that I referred to about recommending in the first instance the successful candidates -- is composed of four faculty and four graduate students in psychology from the university. Of the four faculty members, three are landed immigrants and one is a US citizen. The four student members include one Canadian, one landed immigrant and two Americans.", "Applicants for admission to the programme are judged on the basis of a graduate record examination set in the United States and marked there, I understand, and their marks as undergraduates. Their graduate record examination is given a weight of one and their undergraduate marks are given a weight of two.", "In addition, applicants are required to provide two letters of recommendation from professors in their undergraduate programmes.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "I almost dare not ask it after such a detailed reply, but I was asking in a general way because of the furore that happened to arise here in this particular situation, most of the facts of which the minister has related to the House in his answer, but not all." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Question?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "My question is, would the minister not ensure that in every discipline within the universities across Ontario -- as has been done in several of them -- those disciplines meet and determine among themselves what would be a final criterion for admissions of students to each and every discipline, which has not been done in the discipline of psychology?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Auld", "text": [ "Well, Mr. Speaker, I will --" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Take it under advisement." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Auld", "text": [ "Let’s say that I’ll consider that, because I’m not really conversant with exactly what it is the hon. member is getting at.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for York-Forest Hill." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. P. G. Givens (York-Forest Hill)", "text": [ "Would the Minister of Transportation and Communications please tell us what the reasons were for the rejection by the Province of Quebec of the Krauss-Maffei rapid transit system and for the rejection by the city of Edmonton of the Krauss-Maffei system in that city from the downtown area to the suburbs? And how does he feel his posture as a salesman to the world of rapid transit hardware is affected by these two rejections by two major jurisdictions in Canada?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, first of all I think the word “rejection” is probably a little strong -- it’s just the fact that they’ve chosen some other system for some other purpose." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "The minister will go far." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "The truth of the matter is that in the case of Quebec we’ve looked at their programme. We knew that they were looking at the particular system that they have recommended. I point out that it has not been accepted. It is a recommendation to the government. They’ve looked at it. It’s still in the concept form. It’s an entirely different service that they want to provide. It’s actually an intercity commuter service that they are talking about and not an inner-city service.", "There are all kinds of reasons, I suppose, we could lay out here, but as far as we are concerned we are going to continue on with the project that this government has brought forward --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Blindly, expensively, absurdly." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "-- and Montreal and Edmonton can certainly continue on as they are presently doing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Imagine being brought down under the wheels of the train." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Givens", "text": [ "Isn’t it a fact that the magnetic levitation system, if it is to work, will work better in an intercity system from Montreal to Ste. Scholastique with very few stops, than it would work in Edmonton where there are many stops and which is more or less comparable to what Toronto is? And we’ve had these two rejections. How does the minister explain that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am not for a moment going to attempt to explain the theory of magnetic levitation to the hon. member or anyone in this House. I don’t believe I’m competent to do so. Nor do I think the hon. member is.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Thunder Bay." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "What about ordinary levitation? What about non-magnetic levitation?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, with respect to ordinary levitation, the expert on that is the leader of the New Democratic Party in the federal House." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Thunder Bay." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Natural Resources. Is the minister aware that Great West Timber, one of the largest users of saw logs in northwestern Ontario and a company that just completed a major expansion, is going to have to close down in May because of a lack of saw logs?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am very much aware of that particular company. I can say to the hon. member that we have a third party agreement with a number of the major licensees in the Thunder Bay area and we have outlined to them that they must supply to Great West Timber 100,000 cunits on an annual basis. It is my understanding that this has not been fulfilled and I am meeting with the principals of the company on Wednesday next to discuss it further." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Supplementary: In view of the fact that there are well over 200 jobs and several million dollars of capital expenditure, will the minister take steps to assure all of the people involved that the company won’t close down for the lack of saw logs?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "I realize there may be certain problems related to that particular part of the question, Mr. Speaker, because of half-load regulations that may be imposed in that particular area, but I can assure the hon. member that we will use all the pressure we can muster to keep those jobs going and that operation going full tilt." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Rainy River, I believe." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Colleges and Universities. Acknowledging the minister’s concern about local autonomy in the universities, does he still not feel concerned about the actions that have taken place at the University of Toronto in the last week? I am referring to the actions of the SDS. Does he not feel concerned that the civil rights of the people on that campus have been abrogated by the actions of that group and that perhaps his ministry should set some guidelines in that regard?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "I wonder what the Liberals would do?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Auld", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the only thing I can say is that I believe in the rule of law, as I assume most students and most people do.", "The activities on the campus are apparently being looked at pretty carefully and, I gather, controlled as they are supposed to be by the governing body of that university. Again, as has been traditional from the first university, the matters that the university has as its responsibility are dealt with by it. As I understand it, if universities in the past have required outside assistance in some form or another, they have initiated requests for it. This has happened in the past generally on an administrative basis or an administrative problem, but it would appear to me that the board of governors, the senate, the governing people at the U of T seem to be taking appropriate action." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "Does the minister think what they are doing is appropriate?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for High Park." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. M. Shulman (High Park)", "text": [ "A question of the Solicitor General, Mr. Speaker: In view of the OPP having completed its investigation, is the minister now able to confirm or deny the story in yesterday’s Detroit News that one Joseph Burnett of Toronto has been supplying financing for numerous activities of organized crime in the northern USA?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. G. A. Kerr (Solicitor General)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, there is nothing in the story that I recall or any information that I have that Mr. Burnett was involved with organized crime in washing or laundering money -- and this is what our investigation has shown at this time. We are not aware of any illegal activity conducted by Mr. Burnett in his activities as an investment broker or as a lawyer. As a matter of fact, he has also been investigated by the Law Society of Upper Canada -- of which he is a member -- and they have no reason to disbar him for any of his activities." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Huron-Bruce," ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "All right, we will permit a very short supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Is the minister aware of the story in yesterday’s Detroit News which says he is currently being investigated by the FBI for the very activities which the minister says he is not involved in?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "He is being investigated. There is a difference between investigation and conviction or guilt. The member doesn’t seem to know that. The member doesn’t know the rules of evidence.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order. The hon. member for Huron-Bruce." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. M. Gaunt (Huron-Bruce)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Agriculture and Food, Is the minister contemplating seizing all beef containing DES coming into the province from the United States, as Alberta has threatened to do? Incidentally, when will he answer my question of March 14?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Ruston (Essex-Kent)", "text": [ "That is just a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "I will have to look that question up, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Answer the last one first." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "No, we haven’t any notion of seizing beef coming in from the United States containing DES, because neither we nor, in my humble opinion, the Province of Alberta has any right to seize that beef. All matters of crossing of provincial or international borders is a responsibility of the federal government. The health of animals branch, in this case, would be fully cognizant of it. We have assurance from discussions we have had with Ottawa that there is no beef carrying DES coming into Canada. Frankly, I took the position that the federal government should either close the border to beef which contained DES or allow our cattlemen to use it in Canada.", "We are advised that the American cattlemen are not using DES because it was found to be -- it was banned illegally on a technicality but that technicality does not upset the law under which it was banned originally. The legal position, as we understand it, Mr. Speaker, is that the United States government will likely continue the ban on DES, having taken care of the rather minor technicality on which the Supreme Court found that it was illegally banned in the United States; it is a very complex legal matter." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The time for oral questions has now expired." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gaunt", "text": [ "What about my question on March 14?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "In fact, the time has been exceeded." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "I will get it for the member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Petitions.", "Presenting reports.", "Motions.", "Introduction of bills.", "Orders of the day." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Kitchener." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)", "text": [ "I believe this bill is worthy of two brief comments, the first particularly because of the historic approach this House has always taken to the introduction of a bill before the House deals with the reply to the Speech from the Throne; more particularly I think it’s worthy of comment because this is likely to be the last bill to which His Honour will give royal assent." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please. There seems to be a large number of private conversations taking place. It is difficult to hear the speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "It is particularly of interest that His Honour will be called upon to give royal assent to this bill because of His Honour’s particular interest in this university. As members of the Legislature will recall. His Honour served some eight years as chancellor of Waterloo Lutheran University, the name of which was changed as a result of an Act in this last session to Wilfrid Laurier University. This is one of the further bills which will complete that changeover and I think it is perhaps of interest to the members that as His Honour’s last formal act, he will give assent to this bill, something with which he has been personally familiar, for the university he served as chancellor and, I might add, as chancellor with great distinction." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Do any other members wish to participate in this debate? If not, the hon. minister.", "Motion agreed to; second reading of the bill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Shall the bill be ordered for third reading?", "Agreed." ] }, { "speaker": "Clerk of the House", "text": [ "The first order, resuming the adjourned debate on the amendment to the amendment to the motion for an address in reply to the speech of the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor at the opening of the session." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Ottawa Centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)", "text": [ "Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I thank the members of my own party as well.", "Mr. Speaker, today I want to put on the record a number of comments about the Arnprior dam project of Ontario Hydro. It’s something which has been in the news off and on since last fall when it first became an issue and it’s a project which cries out for public inquiry in order to satisfy the doubts and confusions which have been raised by Hydro and by the actions of Hydro and the actions of the ministers of the Crown in relation to that project over the past few months.", "This is a difficult speech to make because of the volume of material which has come in and because of the fact that, despite all of the material which has come in and the material which has been denied by the government, there are still no clear answers.", "What appears to be the case, however, is very simply this. A political decision was made in 1971 to build a dam in order to re-elect the member for Renfrew South (Mr. Yakabuski); that Ontario Hydro was made the political arm of the government; that this decision was made despite the great uneasiness of many people both in the senior bureaucratic level of the government and in the planning and administration of Ontario Hydro.", "But the decision having been made and the project having commenced, everybody on the government side -- including the member for the area, the Minister of Energy (Mr. McKeough), the Premier (Mr. Davis) himself, today, in refusing to table documents, and the staff of Ontario Hydro -- all of them have be- come engaged in a mass coverup because they do not want to recognize or admit that political considerations prevailed in building a dam which is otherwise unjustified. And I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that the political considerations that may have motivated the dam are not justified either, that the member for the area does not make a significant contribution worthy of $78 million in investment for one re-election.", "Mr. Speaker, I would also like to call your attention and the attention of the House to the fact that the investment we are discussing today, on the Arnprior dam, is very significant in size. It began somewhere around the $40-million mark -- I’m sorry to see the Minister of Energy leaving; I hope he will return for the rest of this speech -- and it is now estimated to be $78 million for the Arnprior dam. That happens to be equal to $10 for every man, woman and child in the Province of Ontario. Or, at current interest rates, it’s equal to something approaching $1 every year, in interest alone, for every man, woman and child. Or $4 or $5 a year in Hydro rates for every family in the province.", "We’re not talking about a small investment. We’re not talking about a few miles of black-top in order to get a member re-elected and that kind of patronage. We’re talking about a lot of money, Mr. Speaker, and it’s a lot of money that’s being wasted.", "I want to make it clear too that from the very beginning Ontario Hydro’s determination to go ahead with this dam has been closely linked with the government. And the government has consistently been involved in the decision-making about the Arnprior dam from the day it was originally announced to the time that it was confirmed by the then Provincial Secretary for Resources Development (Mr. Lawrence) and on until today.", "Back on June 6, 1972, the provincial secretary announced that an analysis had been done by Hydro, that the information had gone forward to the government, that one of the conditions for Hydro going ahead was that it had to have the blessing of the province and, in effect, that the province was giving its blessing. He implied at that time that people in government, including the environment, water resources management, recreation and agriculture people in the provincial government, had been involved in assessing the project. He promised that chronic problems of erosion on the Madawaska River, upstream of the Arnprior dam, would be eliminated and that the lake behind the dam, about 10 miles long, would provide a valuable new recreational resource for the Arnprior area.", "The themes, Mr. Speaker, are consistent through the piece, that is that the dam would provide power, it would correct an erosion problem on the Madawaska River and it would create an important new recreational resource in that particular part of the area.", "Well, Mr. Speaker, during the election campaign itself, I can recall raising my eyebrows at the announcement of an $80-million dam in one particular area, particularly since it was known that Hydro had admitted on a number of occasions that that particular dam was marginal in economics and therefore not justified. However, there were other things that pressed, particularly the affairs of my own riding and mv own city, and it was not until the fall of this year that I became closely connected again with the questions of the Arnprior dam.", "I may say that although people in the area were expressing concern, in letters and by other means, to the Minister of Energy and to other ministers, generally the member from the area was not particularly bothered, and he was keeping everybody else in line. I guess it’s fair to say that up until recently the people of Renfrew county have not felt that they really could get action through the political system and therefore they weren’t anxious to try.", "It’s probably fair to say, as well, that of the people of the area directly affected two groups stood to benefit from the proposal for the dam regardless of whether it was justified or not. One group were the cottage owners along the river, some of whom were upset by the proposals. They were quickly bought out by Hydro at fairly generous prices and presumably went to establish themselves in cottages elsewhere where there was not a regular fluctuation of water levels over the summer.", "Another group were the municipal officials, the businessmen, the merchants and people like that -- the governing group, if you will -- of the town of Arnprior, a town of 8,000 within whose limits the dam is being located.", "Now, Mr. Speaker, whether you establish a new factory, whether you start a major new economic development that will create jobs forever and ever, or whether you build a dam, any expenditure of $40 million, $50 million or $60 million within the town limits of Arnprior obviously has short-run benefits. This is what the people of the area could see.", "I think it is fair to say they didn’t feel it was for them to assess whether or not Hydro really needed this particular project. After all, didn’t Hydro have a very good reputation for being pre-eminent among electrical utilities around the country? Hadn’t it been in business for a long time? Didn’t it really know what it was doing? Wasn’t it the custom that one simply accepted what Hydro said as gospel?", "I think that’s a fair kind of summary of the opinion that many people in the area had of Hydro. And, as far as the merchants and businessmen in the area were concerned, if it meant extra business for a few years that was great. That was fine. I’m afraid that as far as the rest of us in eastern Ontario were concerned, the fact that $80 million was going to go into this particular project when the provincial government wasn’t willing to spend a nickel on economic development throughout most of the region, we were rather slow to cotton on to that particular insult to eastern Ontario on the part of this particular government.", "At any rate, one dark, rainy, late evening in November I was asked on a very urgent basis to meet with some representatives of farmers from the Arnprior area and we did meet in a cafe in Perth. It all sounds rather clandestine but at any rate their concerns were so urgent that they decided that they would come down and see me directly rather than wait for a few days until they could find me in Arnprior, or in Ottawa.", "You know, Mr. Speaker, a number of charges about misrepresentation have been made against myself, in particular by Hydro and by the government, over the course of the debate over the Arnprior dam since November. I want to say that of all the information that has come in about the Arnprior dam the very best and most accurate information was that which came from the local field man for the Federation of Agriculture and from the one or two farmers that he had with him about what they had gleaned informally about the Arnprior dam and what was then raising their concern and the concern of farmers in that area. They gave me about six or seven pieces of information on the dam all of which were fit subjects for concern and all of which proved to be deadly accurate. Not only that, but the information they had was consistently much more accurate than much of what has come since from Ontario Hydro.", "They told me that the estimated capacity of the dam had been reduced by 10 per cent from 87,000 kw to 78,000 kw. They told me that the power output from the dam would be available for only two to four hours a day because of limited reservoir capacity. Now Hydro had never said anything else, but certainly the implication when the project was announced in this House was that it would be available day and night.", "They told me that similar dams in other parts of the province had cost considerably less. And, in fact, when we checked we found that the Lower Notch dam in the riding of the member for Timiskaming (Mr. Havrot) which was completed only three years ago, had cost about $75 million, was producing power for many more hours per day than the proposed Arnprior dam and had approximately three times the capacity of the Arnprior dam for something less than the same amount of money.", "They told me that about 2,000 acres of agricultural land would be flooded by the dam and that hundreds of additional acres would be taken from production because of creek diversions, railway locations and other projects connected with the dam. That was accurate and in the context of 1974, now that people have become much more concerned and much more aware of the dangers and loss of agricultural land everywhere within the province, obviously it is a matter for concern such as it may not have been three or four years ago.", "They told me there was no action planned by Hydro to prevent erosion of the banks of the proposed new lake which would be made behind the dam but that the banks of this lake would be made of Leda clay, the same material which is currently being eroded to a certain degree by the Madawaska River because of the changes in its levels. As they pointed out, the safest way to protect that clay from erosion is by ensuring that the banks are heavily wooded. The banks of the new reservoir would be bare and Hydro crews were then already engaged in taking the timber from the banks of the existing river where they would be flooded.", "They told me the construction contracts on the work to date had been let to C.A. Pitts Ltd. without any open tendering. That happened to be correct and they were aware of a certain amount of hankypanky between the consulting engineer and the contractor; that has turned out also to be deadly accurate in view of the conflict of interests involved in having the president of Pitts sit on the controlling company in the Acres group which controls the engineering company which, in turn, has been recommending that contracts be let to C.A. Pitts. It is a full circle situation and one that would not be tolerated to any extent under the conflict of interest rules which now apply both in cabinet and to senior bureaucrats within the government.", "Mr. Speaker, let me try to put down in the records some of the chronology behind the project. I am glad to see that the member for Renfrew South is here to listen to this. May I say I would be happy to provide copies of anything I quote from in this Legislature to any members of the Legislature who seek it. We do not believe in the kind of policy of exclusion and of suppression of documents which is practised by the government.", "The dam was announced in 1971, about two weeks before the election, by Mr. George Gathercole who was then and still is the chairman of Ontario Hydro. It was stated at the time that the dam was being announced in response to complaints from cottagers and farmers about erosion along the 10-mile stretch of the river between the Hydro dam at Stewartville and the town of Arnprior.", "If one wants to go back into history a bit, sometime in the early 1960s Hydro decided to redevelop the Madawaska River, a river with a fairly substantial vertical drop but not too substantial cubic footage or volume of water, into a river which would be used for peaking power. In other words, it would be used for power at the times of peak demand such as between 4 o’clock and 6 o’clock when everybody is turning on the lights in winter, cooking on the stoves, the factories are still running and the streetcars and subways are drawing a lot of power. That was Hydro’s intention and, in fact, over the course of the 1960s it redeveloped or developed three sites, I think it was, upstream on the Madawaska River in order to create a very sizable amount of power. I believe the programme in those three dams amounted to something like 330,000 kilowatts, or 330 megawatts to use the language of the trade.", "When that redevelopment of the river was proposed two other dams were suggested to be part of it. One was Highland Mountain, I think it is, which is somewhere up in the bush country along the Madawaska River and has not, to this date, been developed for economic reasons; and the other was at Arnprior itself, a mile or two from the place where the Madawaska River joins the Ottawa River. That particular site, which would develop about 80 megawatts or an additional 20 per cent or 25 per cent of the peaking capacity of the river, was examined on a number of occasions by Hydro, but on each occasion was judged to be uneconomic and therefore not justified. In fact, to this day, Hydro says that “considered alone, the Arnprior dam is uneconomic and should not be proceeded with.”", "Now Mr. Gathercole went up there and in response to the complaints and so on, he said: ‘We are going to build a dam and it is going to cost $50 million. But we have to be sure that there are adequate footings, we have to be sure that there is municipal consent and we have to have the approval of the government.”", "I guess in the chronology I had better continue on this line first and then come back to those particular points that were raised by Mr. Gathercole.", "The issues raised by the dam were, I would say, not clear at that time. I have mentioned the kind of frame of mind of people in Renfrew county. I believe it is fair to say that at that time the farmers were not aware they could get anywhere in fighting with Hydro and that they had consented to being trampled and having their rights trampled by Hydro in every comer of the province, for year after year after year, and there wasn’t the same concern as now with agricultural land. I suspect that there may have been an assumption, too, that Hydro, as a kind of big brother, a big daddy in Ontario, would be reasonable in its compensation to the farmers. I think it is fair to say, too, that had Hydro come in within six months after the initial announcement and made generous and reasonable offers to the farmers, including offers for all of their land where they would have farms split up and that kind of thing, probably most or all of the farmers would have consented and they would have sold out to Hydro and there, quite likely, the matter would have rested. The power of the purse would have led us to a situation where Hydro was going ahead with a fait accompli.", "In fact, though, Hydro played the most incredible games, games that the member for Scarborough West (Mr. Lewis), the member for Huron-Bruce (Mr. Gaunt), and other members have described, in offering ridiculous amounts of compensation.", "It came in, it had sent its appraisers in, it told the farmers to make an offer, it wouldn’t make it clear what on earth it was doing and to this day, Mr. Speaker, almost none of the farmers involved have settled. I believe about three or four of the farmers with any appreciable amount of land which is to be taken over by Hydro have, in fact, settled.", "Hydro settled very quickly with the cottagers, offering them sums of up to $4,000 or $5,000 for their acre or so of land. But the farmers then found that Hydro was offering them $100 or $200 an acre for land that had equal cottage potential as the developed land on the other side of the river had they decided to go ahead and allow cottages on their land.", "One of the issues, which is a very specific issue which needs to be raised, Mr. Speaker, is that the protections of the Expropriations Act that were meant to apply to farmers and everybody else don’t appear to be applying in this particular case.", "Hydro is going ahead by force majeure, has now had built or has contracted for $15 million worth of construction work on site, and the intent and I think the effect of that work will be to flood land owned by farmers which it does not currently own, nor to which it has currently applied expropriation orders.", "Hydro has been very delinquent in applying those expropriation orders in order to even indicate its intent. The farmers in the area, who were guaranteed under the Expropriations Act a hearing of necessity into the desirability of having that particular project, haven’t yet had their day in court. And at the time they have their day in court -- because it is clear they are going to go ahead to a hearing of necessity -- they will be confronted with a fait accompli in the form of $6 million, $8 million, $10 million or maybe $15 million worth of work carried out by Hydro on the dam with the clear intent of taking over their land.", "Now it’s my understanding that when the Expropriations Act was amended several years ago, the protection of the hearing of necessity was not meant to be after the fact but before the fact. It was not permitted, for example, for a municipality to build a road on land for which a hearing of necessity had not been held when that hearing of necessity was applied for. And clearly, if the municipality brought its bulldozers on to somebody’s land to build a highway without ownership of that land, then the owner could go ahead and seek an injunction for trespassing and kick them out.", "In this particular case, it’s a bit more complicated. Hydro is not physically trespassing on the land which is threatened by flooding from the dam that is currently being built. It is doing it morally, if you will, but it is not doing it physically. And when the farmers got together with their federation in order to decide to take legal action --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. Haggerty (Welland South)", "text": [ "Hydro had the support of the cabinet, though." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Oh, of course. It’s clear that Hydro intends to flood that land. It’s clear that Hydro intends to take that land.", "But when the farmers consulted legal counsel, they were told that if they went to seek an injunction from the courts to stop Hydro building the dam on a temporary basis, to get the project stopped now, and if they were then subsequently found to be in the wrong by a higher court or at the time that a permanent injunction was being sought, then Hydro could claim not just damages but double damages against the farmers for halting a project where the expenditure was of the order of, say, $25,000 or $30,000 a day." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)", "text": [ "Sounds like blackmail." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "It is blackmail. It means that for every day that the farmers successfully stopped the project by a temporary injunction, they were at risk for maybe $50,000 or $60,000 in double damages. And no matter that the courts might be unlikely to do that, that risk was obviously too great for farmers to take when in fact the whole net worth of the farmers affected might be, let’s say, only $1 million, and the net worth of the one or two farmers who might actually bring this suit might be no more than a day or two days’ double damages that Hydro would pursue.", "It was very clear from the actions of Hydro up until that point that Hydro was going to stop at nothing in order to get those farmers. If it requires the ruining of a farmer, if it required bankrupting him and taking every penny he had in order to teach the farmers in the area a lesson, it was clear that Hydro was quite willing to spend $50,000 or $100,000 in legal fees and go right up to whatever court was necessary in order to seek those kinds of damages in order to punish farmers who chose to try to take out an injunction.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Therefore, when it comes to the procedure that allows, say, an industrialist to go running into court for an ex parte injunction to stop picketing in a legal strike situation -- the procedure that is so often on the side of people with power in this society -- it turned out that when people who were affected by the actions of a powerful body like Hydro wanted to use the same procedure, they were penalized to the point where they simply couldn’t do it. There was no legal recourse that the farmers could safely take, Mr. Speaker, until the time that Hydro finally deigns to take out expropriation orders.", "I have checked into the Act, and the Act says specifically that the Minister of Energy has got to give his approval before those expropriation orders can be issued. I have been unable to find out whether in fact even that approval has now been given. And it may be that Hydro is planning to flood the land without even having sought general approval from the minister, although it is clear and obvious that the minister when asked is willing to give it.", "If one wants to sum up the attitude that is represented by this on the part of Hydro and of the minister himself, it is to say that this is simply a matter of money as far as the corporation and the government are concerned. As far as they can see, any problem in the province, where people object to the actions of government, can be reduced to money and nothing more. Therefore, all it needs, according to the thinking of the minister and his people and the corporation and their people, is to find enough money to pay off the farmers so that they’ll stop riding on Hydro’s back. And, of course, if the farmers do settle, then the local opposition effectively ends and presumably Hydro can go ahead.", "My experience with the farmers, though, is somewhat different. They are saying, “It doesn’t matter what we are compensated, we don’t want to move. We want to see compelling evidence that Hydro has no other course but to do this particular project, which involves resolving an erosion problem by simply flooding out every last farmer and cottager whose land was being eroded or stood in danger of being eroded.”", "Mr. Speaker, the next thing to look at in the chronology is to ask what did Hydro do in order to get people in the area involved, in order to sound out their feelings and in order to let them participate in considering the alternatives? After all, even at $50 million, this was considered to be a marginal project, and the price has been escalating every time the cash register rings. If it was marginal at $50 million -- I don’t care what has been happening with the cost of fuel and other things like that -- it can’t be anything more than marginal at $80 million, and I would suggest that it is grossly uneconomic.", "Until the Minister of Energy went up into the area in January of this year, at which time in his mind the project was a fait accompli, there had been no public meeting with people of the area to acquaint them with the facts of the project and to seek to explain what it was all about; how Hydro was going to proceed; what the benefits to the area would be; and, for that matter quite honestly, what the disadvantages to the area were going to be." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. J. Wiseman (Lanark)", "text": [ "What about the liaison committee?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "We’ll talk about the liaison committee as well. The member for Lanark points out that there is a liaison committee. I happen to have a letter from the chairman of the liaison committee that I intended to read a bit later during this speech. A liaison committee has been established since the summer of 1972, and that liaison committee includes the reeves of the three townships involved, plus the mayor of Arnprior. As I understand it, that body has met in camera.", "The editors of both the newspapers involved in Arnprior have sought again and again to be present at meetings of the liaison committee and on almost every occasion they have been rebuffed. It is only in the last few weeks, as the Arnprior question became more of an issue and as Hydro realized just how badly it was alienating people in the area and in the province, that on one or two occasions journalists have been able to attend the liaison committee meetings. Yes, there has been a liaison committee, Mr. Speaker.", "However, Hydro has never sought or received approval from the councils of the three rural municipalities affected, that is, the townships of Pakenham, McNab and Fitzroy. It has not, nor has it sought, approval from the regional municipality of Ottawa-Carleton, which has territory affected; from the county of Lanark, which has territory affected; or from the county of Renfrew, which has the largest portion of the territory affected.", "The liaison committee tended to be muzzled because its members were told that information they were receiving was confidential, or that some of it was confidential, and they were enjoined not to go and talk around in the area. I’m afraid, as a fact of life in the area, if people are told that there isn’t a tradition of rocking the political boat, therefore people would be very wary of disregarding the instructions that Hydro had given.", "Mr. Speaker, let me go on now and talk about some of the facts that I have received from Hydro. I want to say -- the member for Simcoe Centre (Mr. Evans) was here a few minutes ago, but I don’t see him now -- that at the initial few contacts between myself, as a sort of spokesman for people in the area and as a concerned member of the Legislature, and the hydro commission were maybe not always completely as -- what’s the word I want? -- as satisfying on both sides as one would have liked but at any rate they were cordial. The member for Simcoe Centre sought to be helpful in providing information and the same is true of Mr. Tyndale, one of the project engineers, and other people who were involved. This, in fact, was the case up until approximately the end of January. Over that period of time as well I want to say that, with some difficulty and gradually, there was nevertheless, a flow of material about the project which has come forward and which has provided much of the underpinning for this particular speech.", "One of those documents which came in attached to the letter from the member for Simcoe Centre related specifically to the costs. It gives you very graphically, Mr. Speaker, a picture of what has happened to the costs of this particular project.", "In September of 1971 when the hydro com- mission first gave its general approval for the project, the estimated cost was $51.5 million. In March of 1972, after some preliminary investigations had been carried out, it was $60.3 million. In late 1973, it was $78 million.", "Then there is the introduction of the possibility of a plus or minus five per cent margin for error. And clearly, in view of the escalation of costs, that would be plus five per cent, at the very least. This particular undated memo says that the estimated total cost of the project is now $82,742,000, as compared to the work order estimate of $60.3 million.", "What is illuminating about this document as well, Mr. Speaker, is that in addition to documenting an increase of $22 million or 37 per cent, it also states that the engineering costs were going to be more than previously estimated because of the soil problems encountered, but that they would remain at approximately the same percentage of total cost. The estimated increase in engineering costs is $4 million out of a total increase of $22 million. Now, that happens to be 20 per cent, approximately, of the increase in cost.", "If what is stated here is to be believed, that means that the engineering costs overall are of the order of about $16 or $17 million. That is pretty high, and I asked Hydro about that and their people say no, that is too high, and talk in other figures. I am afraid I can’t recall whether it was $8 million, $10 million or $12 million that Acres Consulting Services stands to receive in engineering costs for the work that it will carry out for Hydro on this particular project.", "I think it is interesting, though, that the sum is that high, because Acres has been consultant to Hydro on this project from the very beginning. One of the things that I have been most critical about is that nowhere does it appear that an adequate study of the alternatives was ever carried out.", "One wonders whether there was not some kind of a conflict within Acres there because of the fact that they stood to make $8 million or $10 million or $12 million if they went this route and built a dam -- whether or not people needed it -- that therefore it was in their interests to go along with a political decision made by the government to protect the hon. member for Renfrew South; whereas the alternative meant $500,000 or $1 million in fees which would allow them to advise the government that there was just no way that it should go ahead with this gross misuse of money and that there were other and there were cheaper alternatives.", "Now, the second document that came to me from the member for Simcoe Centre is entitled “Madawaska River Development.” It is also apparently a background document prepared for senior officials of Hydro, possibly for the commission; I am afraid I can’t say exactly which. This report gets to the core of the whole question, which is: Was the Arnprior dam needed in order to protect the up- stream capacity of the Stewartville peaking dam, which was completed in 1969?", "You see, up until 1969, Mr. Speaker, the river was run for about 10 hours a day -- if I can use some technical words here -- at a flow of about 6,000 cubic feet per second. And that was enough to give 60 megawatts of power 10 hours a day during the daytime hours when demand was greatest, from the Stewartville dam. When it was rebuilt, the capacity of the dam was increased from 60 mw to approximately 150 mw. Subsequently, instead of being run for 10 hours a day, it was run for approximately four hours a day. And when it was running, the water went gushing through there at a rate of 15,000 cfs -- instead of 6,000 cfs.", "Prior to 1969 and for a period since the war, I think, the river’s level downstream of Stewartville used to fluctuate by around two or 2 1/2 feet a day because of the fact that the river was running at above its normal 24-hour pace during the daylight hours and then it was simply shut off -- they turned off the tap -- for the 14 hours from, say, 6 p.m. until sometime in the morning.", "Once they began to run it for only two hours at a time and at a much greater flow of water, then the increase and decrease in water levels tended to get greater -- to what extent I am afraid I have been unable to establish and apparently Hydro has never made a hydrological survey of the lower river in order to find out itself. The scare stories that they have spread indicate that the river now fluctuates in level by eight feet or so a day. My calculations indicate that that may be as low as 3% -- more likely per- haps four or five. The fact is though that there is no clear information which Hydro has yet provided to me in response to inquiries about just what was happening with the river after they started to use this", "Stewartville dam for peaking power.", "At any rate, it was after that that Hydro began to get worried about possible environmental consequences -- consequences -- and public complaints from the 10-mile stretch of the river below the Stewartville dam. Not only were they worried, they showed the most tremendous kind of reaction that you have ever seen, Mr. Speaker. The only citizen’s group that’s had equal impact on the government has been the Kingston Township Ratepayers’ Association when it was led by the brother of the current Minister of Industry and Tourism (Mr. Bennett) and came down to look for OMB information.", "I am told that when Mr. Gathercole went up to Arnprior in 1971 he was presented with a petition with about 25 names on it and that this struck such terror into his boots that he went around for two hours mulling over the dam and the dam site and everything else. He came back and announced, much to the surprise of his officials, that a $50 million dam would be built. If the story is true, that means that each signature was worth about $2 million, if you will.", "However, the record by Hydro itself would indicate that there wasn’t exactly an overwhelming kind of outcry at the way the river had been run. After all, it had had this 2 ft fluctuation every day for 15 or 20 years -- for 25 years I guess -- and that appeared to be reasonably acceptable in the area. They were used to something happening in the river.", "Well, the official record said that Hydro had bought all the land from Stewartville to Clay Bank, about four miles of the total 10-mile stretch, because it anticipated that there might be complaints in that area. They didn’t get complaints in that area. Then it says:", "“A number of complaints have been received since Stewartville began operating in the peaking mode” [that is since 1969]. “Four or five complaints have been received from the 34 cottage owners between Clay Bank and Arnprior regarding water level fluctuations, erosion and very low water levels on weekends.”", "If I can say this again, Mr. Speaker -- “four or five complaints from cottage owners.”", "“Minor improvements were made where possible, but generally the complainant received only an explanation of why the variations were necessary and was told that we were studying the situation.”", "That is, that Hydro was studying the situation, which is fair enough.", "There is no mention of complaints from farmers whose land adjoined this particular section, just from four or five cottage owners in the area, all of whom have since been bought out. Then it goes on and I quote:", "“A petition signed by 36 names of residents was received from the reeve of McNab township complaining about water level variations and low water levels above Stewartville where Hydro has rights to the river frontage. An explanation of the reasons for these flow variations was sent to the reeve. A complaint was received from owners of the Arnprior marina regarding variations in water level, flooding and general difficulties in operating this marina with this marina with the daily changing flows. The commission authorized improvements to this marina property in July, 1970, at the approximate cost of $50,000 and this work has been undertaken.”", "There was a complaint in the spring of 1971 from Arnprior regarding wear of their pumps because of a certain amount of particulate matter. This would be eroded soil in the river and it was wearing out the pumps on the water intake for the pumping station of Arnprior. This complaint was still under investigation at the time this memo was prepared.", "Then, in the summer of 1971, Arnprior told Hydro that the sewage main across the lower Madawaska had failed twice since the new river control plan was initiated, and suggested that Hydro was partially responsible. At the time of writing, that complaint had not been settled.", "In June, 1971, a law firm representing four people who had land on the east bank of the Madawaska, just near the Arnprior marina, filed a complaint with Hydro. Concerns have also been expressed regarding erosion at other areas in this vicinity -- in this vicinity means downstream from the dam currently under construction which I’m discussing today.", "If I could review those complaints, Mr. Speaker, there were three or four cottagers in the 10-mile stretch between Stewartville and the new Arnprior dam who complained. They have all been bought out. The other complaints filed in Hydro’s own compendium of who was concerned came from residents of an area along the reservoir, upstream from the Stewartville dam, who were obviously not affected by the Arnprior dam or by any erosion problems on the Madawaska River in that area; from people at the marina which is downstream from the new dam and where Hydro has already spent $50,000 to give them a floating dock. In fact, Mr. Gathercole personally went to Arnprior that sunny day in October -- it was a sunny day for the member -- in order to launch or open the new docks on the marina and that was the occasion at which he announced the dam.", "As for the city of Arnprior’s pumps, it was simply a matter of getting slightly better quality equipment for a few thousand dollars; I’m not sure how that one has been resolved. I know that Arnprior itself has fixed its sewage pipes. I don’t think it’s had compensation from Hydro for them but the cost of fixing those sewage pipes across the area which will be the tail race for the new dam was in the order of $10,000 or $11,000 and certainly not an expenditure which was worth $78 million to avoid.", "Likewise, the other downstream problems near Arnprior are basically not particularly affected by the dam because the rationale for the dam has always been power generation, erosion problems upstream from the site of the dam and the recreation possibilities.", "But then Hydro goes ahead and there are some dirty photographs here, some dirty pictures. They show dirt falling into the Madawaska River. There are three pictures which have been taken and which have appeared, I think, three or four times in the documents I have been shown concerning this particular dam.", "One is of a particular property, which definitely shows a slide of maybe several hundred square feet, maybe a couple of thousand square feet, between April, 1970, and May, 1971. A second picture is of bank erosion, again maybe several hundred square feet on a bank about 25 ft high, about a mile upstream from the Arnprior site. I guess that’s it. That’s the documentary evidence, in terms of visible evidence, which was being passed around to the senior people from Hydro. At no place have they indicated where these massive slides, which apparently have been taking place, actually took place. In fact, the documentary evidence, to the contrary, indicates that about 80 per cent of the river frontage in the area affected is not prone to serious erosion. There is substantial erosion in other parts but the degree, the extent, the timing, the way in which it has accelerated and so on has never been studied, to my knowledge, in any scientific way by Hydro, as one would expect, before it committed a $78 million investment.", "The report from Hydro, “People to Hydro,” goes on:", "“It is the general opinion of those involved in dealing with those complaints that there will be continuing and probably increasing complaints from residents in the lower Madawaska River area which will lead to restrictions on the operation of Stewartville if measures are not taken to relieve the situation.”", "That, Mr. Speaker, is the nub of the argument for expending $78 million. Although the complaints until the time the dam was committed weren’t particularly great, nevertheless the complaints were bound to get greater and therefore Hydro had to build a $78 million dam.", "If I can find the document here -- I have to quote as a counterpoint to that particular judgement of the Hydro people a comment which, I must say, shocked me but which came from the environmental assessment report which was prepared for Hydro as one of the major documents connected with the dam.", "On page 10 of that document the consultants state -- it may have been Acres or it may have been Hydro. I’m not sure who carried out this environmental assessment:", "“Shortly after the commission announced its intention to investigate this project” [meaning the Arnprior dam] “the town of Arnprior offered their endorsement of the project, followed by a similar endorsement by the county of Renfrew.”", "I might state, incidentally, that there has been no such endorsement by the county of Renfrew, according to a letter to me from the clerk-treasurer of the county. To continue:", "“This indicates that the environmental ethic prevalent elsewhere in North America which abhors any river development is not prevalent among residents of the Madawaska Valley.”", "On the one hand, Mr. Speaker, you have Hydro people advising their superiors that they had to build this dam, because otherwise the environmentalist complaints would be such that the operation of the Stewartville dam would have to be curtailed or cease. Yet, on the other hand, environmental consultants to Hydro were telling senior people in Hydro that there was no kind of environmentalist ethic in Renfrew county such as you find elsewhere on the continent and, therefore, they could “go ahead and damn the torpedoes” and build any kind of dam they wanted.", "If that’s the case, Mr. Speaker -- in other words, if Hydro’s judgement was that the people in the area didn’t give a damn about the environment -- then one could argue -- I’m not going to raise this one particularly strongly -- that Hydro could have saved about $60 million, $70 million or $80 million by not building the dam, seeing that in its judgement the people in the area didn’t give a damn either way about the environment. Obviously, I don’t accept that and I think that environmentalist concerns are important in this whole affair.", "Nevertheless, the cost being incurred by Hydro, apparently with the intention of curing an erosion problem, is gross. The alternatives have not been adequately explored. They have not been explored, particularly with people who own shorefront property and who, therefore, would have been the most likely to launch any complaints.", "In other words, alternatives that might have been acceptable to people in the area in reasonable environmental terms, plus being much more reasonable in cost, were never adequately explored. Hydro’s alternative was simply to buy out the cottagers who had, in fact, complained, and to abuse the farmers to the extent that they have now protested and are fighting hard in return. In other words, it’s no different than some dictatorial government in some country that I care not to mention which takes its critics and puts them into a jail or shoots them. You simply remove the source of the problem rather than seeking to sit down with people in an adult, responsible, democratic fashion in order to work out any kind of a reasonable solution.", "The environmental assessment also states that the present river downstream from Stewartville offered virtually nothing to the economy or recreational opportunities within the area. On the other hand, it said that the project for the head pond and tail pond improvement offered a great deal of social value to the area within easy commuting distance.", "The area within the most easy commuting distance contains the 15,000 or 20,000 people who live within a small radius of Arnprior. They already have White Lake, they already have the Ottawa River and they have tremendous recreational facilities within a very short distance. I hope that the member for Renfrew South doesn’t go along with the judgement of the Hydro consultants that the present river valley offers virtually nothing either to the economy or the recreational opportunities within the area. I happen to consider that that 10-mile stretch of the Madawaska Valley is one of the most beautiful pieces of landscape within the riding of the member, and the riding of the member is one of the most beautiful parts of the province." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. P. J. Yakabuski (Renfrew South)", "text": [ "My friend hasn’t travelled very much in my riding. It is beautiful, but there are many areas in that riding --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "I agree, I agree. But I am saying that this is one --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Yakabuski", "text": [ "He is referring to a certain section of that riding -- the lower Madawaska -- and he knows that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Okay, but I am saying that this particular stretch of valley is particularly beautiful and particularly in relevance to the fact that the rest of the Ottawa Valley plain around there is flat. There is very little topography, apart from that particular valley, for maybe 15 or 20 miles to the south and 15 or 20 miles to the north. So we should think twice before replacing it with a large lake with flat banks and no trees -- providing what? Incidentally, it now is clear that the area has very little recreational potential because the shoreline is unusable for any kind of intensive recreational use for most of its length. This has been established pretty conclusively in the studies that have been prepared.", "At any rate, that is a very funny contradiction. On the one hand, Hydro was so paranoid about environmentalists’ complaints that it decided that it had to move now and, on the other hand, its environmental consultant could find that the people of Renfrew county didn’t give a damn about the environment and therefore would tolerate anything that Hydro cared to bestow on them.", "Mr. Speaker, in trying to go through the chronology of this thing, I guess the first thing to deal with is the comments from people in the area in terms of what they thought about it. As the member for Lanark has pointed out, the four municipalities directly affected with frontage along the 10-mile stretch of river did get together at Hydro’s request to form a liaison committee. And Mr. H. T. Cranston, the mayor of Arnprior, who was the one of the four who was still completely, adamantly, four-square in favour of the dam, wrote on Aug. 31 to the hydro commission to state that the municipalities welcomed most sincerely the decision of Ontario Hydro to construct a generating station on the Madawaska River.", "It goes on to say:", "“The four municipalities recognize the benefits accruing from the project, namely the formation of a new lake with all its recreational possibilities, the levelling of the fluctuations of the Madawaska River, the increase in employment in the entire area, the added effects of the necessary increase in the service industry, the assessment arising from the further development of the area.”", "And then he goes on to say:", "“The municipalities recognize their own responsibility to the citizens of the area in that the elected officials of the municipalities cannot abdicate their responsibilities to their citizens but can make certain that the problems that will arise will be settled in a sound businesslike manner.”", "Frankly, what that means to me, Mr. Speaker, is that the people in Renfrew South were conned by the sharpies from University Ave. who came up from Hydro. Let’s look at this in detail -- and I will be talking later about the recreational benefits of keeping the valley and developing it as opposed to what will be created by the dam.", "“The levelling of the fluctuations of the Madawaska River” -- well that’s open to some dispute too, because it is clear that the level of the new reservoir may also vary by as much as 2 ft a day.", "“The increase in employment in the entire area” -- you know, one of the almost curious things about this is that since it is peaking power that is to be created for the grid, there will be no particular advantage to Arnprior and surrounding communities in terms of cheaper power to provide to industry. And since the plant will be run by remote control from the generating station on the Ottawa River, I think, there will not be a single fulltime permanent job created as a result of this project once the dam is actually built.", "The people in the area have been told repeatedly that a great amount of the employment will be done locally, that 75 per cent of the jobs will come locally and so on. However, if that is the case, they have not seen the results so far.", "I spoke the other week with the manager of the Canada Manpower Centre in Arnprior, and I said, “Are you getting the jobs for the project?” He said, “No, they are being handled by the unions. The unions are giving priority to their unemployed members from other parts of the province. We are having to tell people locally who want jobs that they are going to train up on particular skills and that may take some time and because of the risks of not even then getting a job we really are not encouraging them wildly to do it.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Yakabuski", "text": [ "Pay exorbitant union dues." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Wait a minute. Hydro says that 75 per cent of the jobs will be provided locally, but when you get down to it you find that no arrangements have been made by Hydro, either through discussions with the unions, through discussions with the local Manpower centre or through discussions with the government in order to ensure that that particular promise is carried out. It is simply a dream. It is simply a matter of a wish which is never fulfilled, because Hydro knows the government has never done anything to actually carry it out. So therefore the bulk of the jobs are being filled by people from other areas than Renfrew county.", "There is, in fact, as anybody who knows the way in which these things work, a travelling force of skilled, competent men who make their living on heavy construction projects such as this one. Some of them may be at work in the Bruce right now, and when work tails off there a bit and work picks up in the Madawaska, they will look for work up there.", "A number of them worked up at Lower Notch, on the generating station on the Montreal River. Some of them I believe worked out at Nanticoke and so on. They are skilled, they are known to the contractors, they are competent, able men. I don’t even particularly object to their being hired. What I do object to though, is Hydro giving promises to local people in order to try and get their consent and support, and then in fact not fulfilling them.", "In fact, if you will, it was a misrepresentation by Hydro that 75 per cent of the jobs would be filled locally. It is one of a number that have been carried out by Hydro over the course of this whole affair, which is one of the reasons as I stated before, why I feel rather resentful to having Hydro charge me with misrepresentation when I have done my best to stick to the information and facts that have been provided and when Hydro has consistently misrepresented information in order to try and bull ahead with this particular project.", "The other point to be raised about the liaison committee, Mr. Speaker, is that it is fair to say that they went along when Hydro said, “Look, let’s just keep it very chummy, please. We don’t want the information to get out. After all we want to bounce ideas off you, knowing that it is going to be secure and confidential. You wouldn’t like the hoi polloi to know what all this is about, would you?” I’m afraid that the reeves and mayor said, “Yes, we agree” and they went along with that.", "They did, to their credit, propose that Hydro provide funds for the municipalities affected to hire engineering help so that they could independently assess the proposals being made by Hydro. Hydro, true to its big brother image, said, “No. Despite the fact that we are spending $60 million to $80 million on this project we can’t find $20,000 in order to give you the services of a consultant for 50 or 100 days a year, or we can’t find whatever it would cost to let you hire somebody and leave them work full-time on your behalf in order that you are adequately prepared to come and discuss the problems with Hydro” -- with all of the resources that it had at its command.", "It simply said, “Look, if you have a problem and you don’t have the answer, come to us.” A statement which is equivalent to the boss, who when challenged by his workers, says, “Look, my door is always open” and it is with equal amount of benefit.", "They were refused in that and they didn’t go on. Mr. Speaker, Mayor Cranston has been a supporter of the project from the beginning. He wrote this letter on behalf of Hydro. Hydro then assumed apparently that if the mayor approved then everybody in the area approved. In fact, when I went to check I found out that the township of Pakenham has never received any formal kind of communication from Hydro asking for the township’s consent. The council has never discussed or accepted any motion or bylaw in regard to the dam project.", "The township of McNab has no record of formal approval ever being requested by Ontario Hydro or given for the project. Lanark county council has taken no part in discussions and decisions concerning the dam.", "The regional municipality of Ottawa-Carleton -- well, in fact, they requested of the province that representatives of the original municipality take part in some of the discussions, specifically the task force on recreational possibilities. And had that taken place, Mr. Speaker, it may be that the regional municipality of Ottawa-Carleton might have woken up to the fact that a prime recreational resource, 45 minutes’ drive from downtown Ottawa, was being squandered by Hydro, and that there was no reason for it.", "But, at any rate, there was some discussion with the task force and nothing more; at no time was the regional municipality asked for nor did it give its approval.", "The county of Renfrew dredged up one reference to the dam, which says that in June of 1972 the committee of ARDA intended to discuss the Hydro development at Arnprior at its subsequent meeting, but there is no further discussion recorded in the minutes.", "Around about the same time, in fact, there was an expression of concern from Warden George Matheson of the county of Renfrew, who was saying to Mayor Cranston that, “Look, the priorities right now are the dam first, the Highway 417 bypass around Arnprior second -- but delayed until 1977 -- and the new Highway 17 bridge into downtown Arnprior third.” And he was saying to the mayor, “Look, don’t you think those priorities ought to be changed about?” That may have had some response because, in fact, the priorities were subsequently changed about.", "That’s the amount of local involvement, Mr. Speaker. One meeting to announce the project; one committee meeting in private; one meeting with the Minister of Energy in January of this year -- and I’ll talk about that a bit later.", "I want to go back a bit though to this document that the member for Simcoe Centre had sent me about the alternatives, because this is the fullest explanation of the alternatives that were considered before Hydro undertook to build this particular dam. And the importance of this is that at no time have I been able to establish that any further or deeper study of the alternatives was actually carried out.", "The report to the senior Hydro people states that the following measures were investigated to reduce the effective flow variation in the lower Madawaska River from Clay Bank to the Ottawa River. One was to purchase or obtain easements on river frontages; that is, that Hydro would buy the river frontage that was affected on both sides of the river. The cost was estimated at $1.2 million if they had bought some land and bought the rest as easements; or $2 million for buying all of the land. Hydro states:", "“Neither of these alternatives was considered a satisfactory solution to the problem if, in fact, it was even possible to obtain all the river frontage. We would expect to continue to receive complaints about a disregard for the environment.”", "And that’s that point again -- that Hydro reacted to some kind of anticipated complaints, when elsewhere in the province it won’t even listen in situations of gross disregard for the environment. And it says that it might not be possible to obtain all the river frontage, Mr. Speaker. Now, clearly Hydro has always enjoyed expropriation powers and if it needed to use expropriation to get the river frontage, that was not any substantive kind of objection.", "The next proposal was to construct a weir upstream of Waba Creek. That, they say, would reduce the maximum fluctuations in level from 7 ft to 4 ft and raise the minimum water level at a cost of about $900,000. They state that it would be a partial solution to the river level variation problems. And then they go on to elaborate:", "“Although it would reduce level changes, it would prevent access up the river by boat and might increase downstream flow variation difficulties. It may also cause difficulties with ice, or be eroded by spring breakup. Further study of resulting river conditions would be required before this alternative could be considered as a partial solution to the existing problems.”", "I would point out first, Mr. Speaker, that that weir could be reconstructed every year for far less money than it would cost in interest to maintain the dam that is currently being built. Secondly, that the objections raised to it are objections which are worth balancing against the costs of the $78 million project now under way.", "Is it worth $78 million less $900,000 in order to ensure that boats can go along a 10-mile stretch of the river rather than being confined to a four-mile stretch of the river before they have to portage around a weir? Is that particular difficulty for boats so overwhelming that the government has to spend $78 million? I don’t think so, Mr. Speaker.", "Downstream, in the two-mile stretch between the dam and the Ottawa River, Hydro originally intended to let boats go right up to the foot of the dam. That was one of the advantages played to the town of Arnprior as one of the reasons it should support the project; apparently that isn’t possible right now because there is a weir there. In fact, a new weir will be constructed because Hydro found that its original intention of lowering the tail race to the level of the Ottawa River just wasn’t feasible. Without even talking about it Hydro has interfered with boat access to the foot of the dam and made about three or four miles of river front between the weir and the dam inaccessible to boats from the Ottawa River.", "Fair enough; it was a decision which was obviously economically inevitable but it didn’t seem to matter to Hydro that boats were being cut off from a section of river front there. If that is the case, surely the question of whether or not boats had the full run of a 10-mile stretch of the river upstream in an area which has good boating access, particularly on the Ottawa River, could not or should not have been overwhelming.", "There has been no further study, to my knowledge, of the resulting river conditions which would ensue if the weir were to be built instead of a dam. They talk about the possibility of reducing the peak operation at Stewartville in order to reduce the degree of fluctuation in water levels and to raise the minimum water level in the area of cottages downstream of Clay Bank.", "The need to raise the water level for the cottages would be obviated if the cottages were not there. In other words, if one buys up the cottages as Hydro has done one doesn’t need to worry about their needs for recreational swimming and access. As far as the farmers, hikers, day-trippers and so on are concerned they are a rather different problem from the cottagers. At any rate, they state that as far as the possibility of reducing the peaking of the Stewartville plant is concerned none of the alternatives there would solve the problem completely and all the arrangements, of course, would reduce the peaking potential of the Madawaska system. They talk about the ability to bring all the capacity of the Madawaska River into full operation in a short period of time, as something which can be used to displace the need for gas or steam turbines in the Ontario or other systems." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. W. Martel (Sudbury East)", "text": [ "The member for Renfrew South is going to support them, isn’t he?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "I don’t know. I think the member for Renfrew South has been notoriously quiet on this particular subject. I don’t think he has really involved himself with the people there. Possibly it will be not forgotten at the next election that when there was a local issue which affected the people of Renfrew county, particularly the farmers with whom the member has been so close -- they are very disillusioned with the member for Renfrew South, Mr. Speaker. Not only has the member not been around very often, he has not said a word -- he has not even had the guts to come out and say publicly, if he believes it, that he thinks Hydro is doing the right thing and he agrees with Hydro completely and to say that he thinks the farmers in the area are full of manure or some other substance.", "If he really believes that, he ought to say it but the people in the area of Arnprior, for example --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Yakabuski", "text": [ "I have made my views known." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "He has?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Yakabuski", "text": [ "I think I have made my views known." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "I haven’t heard them very loudly and neither have the people in the area." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "It is amazing how the member worries about him getting re-elected." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "I can tell the members that the membership of the NDP in Arnprior increased by 800 per cent in the last two weeks and it was directly as a result of the member for Renfrew South." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. A. Taylor (Prince Edward-Lennox)", "text": [ "Eight members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "We are going up from there, too." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "That’s called progress. We used to have only two seats in this Legislature." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "That’s right." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "That sounds like those 10 seats the member for Scarborough West --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "If I can comment on that, Mr. Speaker. There is a lot of eastern Ontario where we haven’t had many members until now and it is actions by the government and actions by members like the member for Renfrew South which are alerting people to the fact that they simply cannot get political change or political action with their present representation. They very definitely need a change --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Yakabuski", "text": [ "The member’s mouth will not get anyone elected." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "What is that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Yakabuski", "text": [ "The member has a big mouth. That is all." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Don’t get personal." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. F. Laughren (Nickel Belt)", "text": [ "Don’t get personal." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Yakabuski", "text": [ "The member’s big mouth!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "Don’t get personal." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Yakabuski", "text": [ "Just keep it up and we are all safe." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Okay." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "That is what Gaston used to say." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)", "text": [ "I never heard him say anything." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Gaston used to say that, too." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Yakabuski", "text": [ "The member is in real trouble right now where he is." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Is that right? Well if the member thinks so." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "The Tories have had it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "The Tories have had the course." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Yakabuski", "text": [ "Most members live in their riding. But not the member for Ottawa Centre, he lives on Toronto Island." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Yes?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Yakabuski", "text": [ "Yes; it is true." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Sure, I know. I live in my riding, too. I just spend a lot of time around here.", "I would point out, Mr. Speaker, that the Tories have had three search committees working to find a candidate to oppose me in 1975. They haven’t found any up until now and they will be very happy to consider the application of the present member for Renfrew South." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Stay there; the member better stay where he is." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Yakabuski", "text": [ "The way the member marches all around the province, he won’t even hold his seat." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Well, Mr. Speaker, just let me go on with this document, which is obviously a key document in the whole plan of Hydro, at least in so far as information which is available to senior Hydro people and the government for making a decision and for justifying a decision once it has been made is concerned. It says toward the end that the Ministry of Transportation and Communications is planning a new limited-access highway right over the proposed site of the Arnprior dam and may pre-empt Hydro use of the site unless this project is committed now.", "Well you have to picture to yourself, Mr. Speaker, a bunch of Hydro engineers who came out of university after the war, had never worked for anybody else but Hydro and for 25 years their job has been to build dams. They are nearing retirement right now, and as well Hydro has told them: “Look, we have given up building dams, we are going to be going nuclear.”", "This was in the late Sixties, early Seventies. The hydraulic programme had come to an end; I think that is being reconsidered now in view of changes in the energy economy, but nevertheless at the time that the project was being considered it was felt that hydraulic projects had come to an end. The engineering team in Hydro that had built so many dams was being disbanded. That was one of the reasons why Acres was involved in the engineering up at Lower Notch, and I guess that was why they were called in to engineer the project at Arnprior as well.", "So here are these guys who want to build another dam. It is in their life-blood and they find out that the site may be pre-empted, by highway engineers of all people, and that they may not get to build their dam because there is not another site on which to build a generating dam around there. So because the transportation people are proposing a $1 million bridge they rush in and say: “Come on now, we had better move quickly; and they commit themselves to a $78 million dam in order to keep Transportation and Communications from building a $1 million bridge; not thinking that maybe Transportation and Communications could be induced to spend $1 1/4 million to slightly relocate their bridge so that Hydro would still have the option of the dam at some future date.", "Then they say: “If we don’t proceed now with the Arnprior generating station and subsequently want to develop the Arnprior project, then the CPR line will have to be rerouted and a new highway cloverleaf will be required; and there may be difficulties in building the dam under or adjacent to the new highway bridge.”", "Well, for the sake of a cloverleaf, for the sake of having to fit the dam under the bridge, and for the sake of relocating the CPR, they decided they had better rush ahead. It so happens, Mr. Speaker, that they found that they have to relocate the CPR anyway; in fact their financial estimate includes about an extra $1 million or $2 million for further relocation of the CPR, because they found that they had to move it further than they had initially --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "They are moving it to Barry’s Bay." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "That is right; well that is not a bad idea.", "Then they stated that Transportation and Communications was also planning to replace the bridge over the lower Madawaska where Highway 17 now goes into the town of Arnprior. “If Hydro wanted”, and I quote, “to subsequently widen the discharge channel from the Arnprior dam, this bridge would have to be replaced again at an estimated cost of $250,000.”", "In other words, Mr. Speaker, if Hydro delayed making a decision about the dam and MTC rebuilt the bridge, then it would cost an extra quarter of a million dollars to lengthen the bridge to get it over the new tail race that would have to be built below the dam. Those are hardly compelling reasons for going ahead.", "Well, let’s go on. In their conclusion they say that:", "“The construction of the generating station would eliminate a number of problems and complaints mostly anticipated due to water level variations of the lower Madawaska. It would provide additional peaking energy.” [Yes it would -- but at grossly uneconomic cost.] “It has been conclude” [by Hydro people] “that if Arnprior is not constructed then restrictions in peaking operation of Stewartville will be required.” [And that, Mr. Speaker, is the statement that nowhere is proved].", "“In addition, the project would provide 10 to 15 miles of shoreline on a man-made lake which would be suitable for cottages, sailing, boating and fishing. This facility should be of significant value to local residents and to the city of Arnprior.”", "The shoreline is actually about 48 miles. The estimate is that something like 90 or 95 per cent of it is unsuitable for cottages and that the recreational demands to be foreseen in the area up until the turn of the century are not large enough to justify more than one campsite there. There are many areas along the Ottawa River nearby which are equally pleasant and where a new campsite of that size, or greater, could easily be built.", "Mr. Speaker, let me try and get up to date now on some of the chronology. This became an issue in the Legislature I think about last November and from the very beginning the attitude of the government on this whole question of the Arnprior dam has been to seek to deny information, or to seek to cover up, or to seek to simply refuse to recognize the statements that are being made from this side of the House, both from the New Democratic Party and also on occasion from the Liberal Party. In fact, the Minister of Energy has, from the very beginning, taken the attitude of stonewalling. He will never see anything wrong with the project. And may I say that while the member from -- Simcoe North is it? --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Taylor", "text": [ "Centre (Mr. Evans)." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Centre, I am sorry -- was up until the end of January very co-operative in providing information, he, too, at no time was willing to recognize that there might be anything wrong with the particular project. If anything, one might say that they, too, have been conned by the sharpies from University Ave., the same sharpies that gave us the Gerhard Moog Canada Centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "That is why George Gathercole is singing his swan song." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "And it’s a very long swan song, may I say. One would wish, after what I have learned from this, that Mr. Gathercole would take his flight a bit sooner. It’s the only argument I can think of why we should have a second chamber in this particular province; it would be to find a safe resting place for people the likes of Mr. Gathercole who have outlived their usefulness." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Hear, hear. I support that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the first questions about the dam that I can find here are some questions that were filed by the member for Downsview (Mr. Singer), in fact, that specifically requested details of the first contract and the value of the first contract, which was not at that point even available from Hydro. Because Hydro, believe it or not, in 1973 and 1974 had a tendering procedure which came from the dark ages, in which they would not even reveal the value of winning contracts let alone do what every other government agency in this province does -- reveal the value of every tender sub- mitted and the names of all the bidders. That’s how bad the tendering procedure of Ontario Hydro was. It was quite autocratic in fact.", "At any rate, on request, that information was given, justified I think by the fact that there had been a negotiated contract with Pitts, given on the advice of Pitts’ corporate relative Acres, who were the engineering consultants to Hydro. The question was also asked, though, whether the Minister of Energy or Hydro would release the unit prices in that first contract. It seemed like a reasonable kind of thing to do, in view of the fact that Pitts would obviously be bidding on the second contract and that it would know both its own costs in carrying out the first contract and also the unit prices in its successful bid, and that information was denied to every other bidder, but Hydro didn’t see anything wrong with that and neither did the minister.", "I asked whether the minister could explain why Ontario Hydro was continuing to favour Pitts by making it the only contractor on the subsequent contract privy to the detailed information gained on the first contract.", "The Minister of Energy said that those allegations of mine were simply not correct. Well, I am afraid that the statement by the minister was simply not correct." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "The ministers nose is out to here." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Taylor", "text": [ "He is the most correct person in the House." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "I suspect that my statement is as unparliamentary as the statement made by the minister -- only I happen to be right and he happens to be wrong.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "It’s clear that Hydro was very embarrassed about this from the beginning, and in early January there suddenly came the revelation from Hydro of not only the names of the people who had been invited to bid on the second contract of the dam, which was for about $9 million or $10 million, but also, for the first time in the history of Hydro, the amounts of the bids were revealed. Believe it or not, Pitts had the inside track, as we had predicted, and its bid was substantially below the bids of the other firms that had been invited to bid." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Yakabuski", "text": [ "Why doesn’t the member read out those bids? Read out the figures on those bids. Tell the whole story. The member says “substantially,” but it was $7 million lower than the high bidder." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "What?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Yakabuski", "text": [ "Approximately $7 million lower than the high bidder." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "That’s what he said. That’s substantial." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Yakabuski", "text": [ "That’s a lot of know-how -- $7 million worth. That’s a lot of inside track." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "If I may read the bids --", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "I’m glad to know, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. member for Renfrew South is finally getting engaged in the Arnprior dam issue for the first time in his life." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Yakabuski", "text": [ "Just tell the whole story; don’t twist the facts." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "The lowest bid received was tendered by C. A. Pitts of Toronto at $9.4 million. You will recall, Mr. Speaker, that Pitts had knowledge of the unit prices of the first contract --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Yakabuski", "text": [ "What was the highest?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "-- and had knowledge of its actual cost, because it had been given what amounted to a cost-plus tender on the first job, in which it was able to settle the price with Hydro, some six or eight months I think it was, after it moved its equipment onto the site.", "The second lowest bid was from Armbro Materials and Construction Ltd. of Brampton, $11.9 million; McAlpine of Rexdale, $12.7 million; then they go up to Peter Kiewit of Weston, $16.7 million. Pitts’ bid was $2.5 million below that of the next lowest bidder.", "The hon. member for Renfrew South would probably say that it made eminent sense for Pitts to be chosen in view of that bid. What I’m suggesting is that in government and in tendering, where there are conflict-of-interest situations, these must be shown to be non- existent. It’s a matter of being seen to be free from conflict of interest, as well as being free of conflict of interest.", "I’ve had some very angry reactions from people who work for the Acres consulting firm, saying: “Look, I’ve been involved in this job. I wasn’t influenced by the fact that people on the board of my parent company sit on a board with Mr. Cooper of Pitts. What do you mean that my integrity is being involved? I am free from it.”", "The answer though, Mr. Speaker, is very simply that they’re not free from the appearance of it so long as there is a corporate link. And you certainly, Mr. Speaker, or the hon. member for Simcoe Centre or the hon. member for Renfrew South, would not tolerate learning that the Deputy Minister of Government Services, for example, was involved in the tendering of contracts to a firm with which he had a corporate link -- where he or his wife was a director or there was some other kind of direct link between him and that firm.", "The sensible, logical, established thing to have done in this particular case would have been for Acres to say to Hydro: “Look, we cannot assess these bids because of a conflict of interest. Therefore, we ask you to either get your own staff or another consultant to come in to decide which bid should be accepted.” That would have cost $5,000 or $10,000, and it would have eliminated the appearance of conflict of interest, which is just one of the problems that has been involved. Hydro was very embarrassed, though, because of the fact that it did -- and it showed it by revealing these figures for the first time.", "Hydro obviously also went along with the conflict-of-interest situation -- they didn’t see anything wrong, and the minister apparently has not seen anything particularly wrong.", "The next round in this, Mr. Speaker, was the Minister of Energy’s visit to Arnprior; the hon. member for Renfrew South and the hon. member for Lanark, I think were both present. As it happened, I was able to get up; and, as it happened too, it was faithfully recorded in the Globe and Mail. I must say that the reaction of the people in the area was, to put it mildly, very negative.", "Here they had been trying since June of the previous year, when Reeve Stewart of Pakenham township first wrote to the Minister of Energy, to get somebody senior in government up to Arnprior to look at the project, to look at the very serious objections, to reconsider it and to decide whether or not it should be pulled back. That’s what the people in the area wanted. They were concerned. About 80 or 90 of them gathered in the hall and the Minister of Energy said: The dam will go ahead no matter what. He didn’t just say it, Mr. Speaker; I mean to say the reaction of the local press was that the minister had struck out on that particular occasion.", "My own respect for the minister went down very substantially on that particular occasion, because the rather endearing arrogance that I had known of him, when he was the Treasurer and when he was the Pooh-Bah of the government, striding over an enormous area of government, seemed to have changed to a petty autocracy in which he would brook no criticism and brook no conflicting opinions.", "He went up to Arnprior, got on a helicopter, wandered around the site by air to have a quick look at it and arrived in the local hall at 10 o’clock, not to meet with the farmers but to hold a press conference. During the course of the press conference, Mr. Speaker, he let it be known that Hydro had let the contract for the dam to Pitts; and during the course of the press conference as well he made it clear that he was not there to reconsider the project, he was simply there to have a look around and nothing else.", "In fact, the CP wires carried the report of Hydro’s award of that contract, Mr. Speaker. It reached me and other people in the area by telephone midway through the subsequent meeting between the minister and 80 or 90 or 100 angry farmers, towns- people and others from that particular area. By the end of the day, Mr. Speaker, the heavy equipment, which Pitts had put just off the site in the hope of getting the new contract, was rolling back in to recommence work on the $9.4 million award that it had that day." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Just as though they had never left," ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "That, Mr. Speaker, was the way in which this particular government was willing to listen to the people of Renfrew on that particular occasion in connection with the Arnprior dam project. That is a height of arrogance such as I’ve never seen, to go in to tell the press rather than listening to the people first, to have the announcement made midway through the meeting and then to have the trucks and the bulldozers rolling back on the site as the people are leaving, unhappily, to go to their homes.", "He wouldn’t even stay for lunch; and it was a very good lunch, Mr. Speaker. At any rate, it was very clear that the whole thing was a cut-and-dried affair,", "I had a very curious document that came to me from a broker down on Bay St. It was one of these investment reports on C.A, Pitts," ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. S. B. Handleman (Minister of Housing)", "text": [ "He sent one to the member?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "I think I asked for it. He wouldn’t have sent it to me, naturally.", "But what it said was: “C.A. Pitts; good company; lots of profits ahead; doing very well; increase in workload;” and so forth. Then when you got into the details, there they had $30 million of work listed for C.A. Pitts on the Arnprior dam project. This was months before the tenders had even been called for the second phase of that particular contract." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "A pretty good fore- caster." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "A pretty good forecaster, that’s right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Especially if the contract had already been signed." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, that was the last attempt that I know for Hydro to come clean --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Is Pitts in the Tory party?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Or for the Minister of Energy to come clean with people in the area. At that meeting, the minister, Mr. Jackson and the other people from Hydro kept insisting it was a matter of compensation and nothing else. Yet, in fact, a number of the farmers got up and made it clear they wanted to keep their farms first. If they couldn’t keep their farms, then they would argue for good compensation, but they wanted to keep their farms. The member for Renfrew South, I think, knows that.", "I was concerned, Mr. Speaker. By this time I had collected a fair amount of information which indicated to me that at no time had Hydro done adequate studies to assess the alternatives to building the $78-million dam; and in view of the concern of the farmers in the area over the loss of their farmland, in view of the loss of recreational potential of the valley, and in view of the excess expenditures which would have the effect of driving up unnecessarily our Hydro rates across the province, that the whole project ought to be reconsidered.", "In the Legislature and through other means I was asking the government to stop construction and to hold a full public inquiry to see what the alternatives were, and we were also seeking as much information as possible to see what the alternatives were.", "Around this time, I wrote a detailed letter about the project to the Minister of Energy. I sent a copy to Hydro and I sent copies to the Minister of Agriculture and Food (Mr. Stewart) because farmers were concerned; to the Minister of Labour (Mr. Guindon) because workers in eastern Ontario weren’t getting the jobs; and to the Minister of Industry and Tourism because he is also the minister responsible for eastern Ontario. I could see there would be more advantage in spending $50 million in economic development than in building a dam that wouldn’t create any jobs after it was built. In other words, the letter had fairly wide currency.", "I also sought a meeting with senior people from Hydro in order to discuss statements I had made in the letter. By this time it began to appear to me, and in fact I had had information from Hydro, that the power coming out of this project was going to cost something like 50 mills a kilowatt hour. A mill is one-thousandth of a dollar or a tenth of a cent. For the sake of comparison, the revenue that Hydro gets from its industrial and municipal consumers -- municipal utilities -- for the power it sells to them is between seven and about nine or 9.5 mills. In other words, the power coming out of this project was going to cost anyone from five to seven times the price at which Hydro actually sells its power to retailers and to industrial consumers.", "On the face of it, something might be wrong. At the very least, in view of the marginal prospects of the project, one deserved better than to be fobbed off with bland assurances such as we had from the Premier today that Hydro really knew what it was doing. All of the evidence indicated that Hydro didn’t know what it was doing, that it was hell-bent on building the dam and not hell-bent on looking at all the alternatives to see whether something couldn’t be done much more cheaply in order to resolve erosion problems on the river to the satisfaction of the people concerned, while still preserving the peaking use of the dam upstream.", "Then there was a very funny kind of succession of things where the chairman, Mr. Gathercole, said: “Yes, of course, you can meet and we will have our technical people there. All of your difficulties can be explained and sorted out.” I was to get it sorted out from the member for Simcoe Centre’s office at such and such time on such and such a date, early in February; around Feb. 3, 4 or 5, I can’t remember. That meeting was set, was confirmed by letter and then was cancelled at the last minute. Not only was it cancelled, but a week or so later when my secretary phoned the member’s office to find out whether they had managed to get their people together for the subsequent meeting that had been agreed upon, she learned directly from the member for Simcoe Centre that he hadn’t been aware of it, or wanted to continue the idea of the meeting.", "Finally, once that one was resolved, and there was certainly an implication that Hydro was doing its best not to meet, on Feb. 25 I think it was -- no, it was a bit earlier than that, around Feb. 24 or 23 -- I was invited down to the member’s office to meet, not with Mr. Gathercole because he didn’t want to get involved -- he only started the thing off and he left it to other people to pick up the pieces -- but, with the now president of Hydro, Mr. Gordon; with the member for Simcoe Centre; with a Mr. Morrison, director of generation projects; and with the man who has been most intimately involved with this particular project, Mr. Jackson, Mr. Morrison’s boss; and with two or three other people who were concerned with property and public relations.", "I don’t want to go into that meeting in any detail. In fact I would wish that everybody involved could just forget that meeting, because frankly it was a fiasco. It was a disaster.", "I had sent material to Hydro and said, in effect: “Can you comment on this, please?” We arrived and I said: “What are your comments?” And they said: “Oh, we didn’t bring your letter to the meeting. We will go and get it.”", "Then when we had the five or six-page letter, Mr. Morrison said: “You have been misrepresenting what we are doing. You say you don’t know whether it is for erosion control or for generation of electricity. In fact it is for both.” So I said: “I don’t know which it is for. Is it for erosion control or is it for electricity;” because I hadn’t been very clear about that?", "At no point was it possible to get any substantive answer from Hydro. At no point was there any effort by Hydro to explain this craziness that power was going to cost 50 mills per kilowatt hour from this particular project, according to figures that had been sent to me by Mr. Gathercole. At one point they said: “Look those figures are irrelevant, here are our figures” -- and proffered figures in a form which I’m afraid is not possible for a layman to understand unless the working papers are provided.", "I was told that they didn’t want to give information because it wasn’t possible for a layman to understand. Yet we live in a system of government which says that lay people in the Legislature and in the cabinet will make the decisions on the advice of the experts; and I would have thought that applies to Hydro as much as it applies to other subjects. Certainly one notices that a number of lay people have been appointed to the board of directors of the Hydro corporation, because that tradition applies within business and within public corporations as well as within politics and within private business.", "Having been told I was misrepresenting things, I was then told by Mr. Morrison that he should take legal action against me; he was really very up tight. At the very end of the meeting, Mr. Speaker, the president, Mr. Gordon, indicated that he supported the comments that had been made by this particular rather foolish senior executive of Hydro.", "Over an hour-and-three-quarters all I could gather was that Hydro didn’t have any studies of any depth on the present or the future course of erosion along this stretch of the Madawaska. There are the erosion problems of the dam reservoir -- and that’s pretty important. If you are going to build a dam to solve one erosion problem by drowning it, you ought to know whether the sensitive marine or Leda clay which surrounds the reservoir will still be subject to erosion, and if so by how much.", "Now the reports that have come in indicate generally that there will still be stability problems. There will be an improvement from the present erosion problems, okay; but by how much nobody knows, because the studies haven’t been done. They just say: “Don’t worry, boys, it is going to be better; and if it isn’t better we can spend a bit more money to stabilize the banks of the new reservoir.”", "At one point Hydro referred to this as being a final solution to the erosion problems. But more recently they indicated that it is only a partial solution, that the lake level will fluctuate by up to two ft a day. Some of the people admit that there may be wave action, which will add to erosion.", "There will still be some erosion problems, but there is no detailed study about what those erosion problems might be. There is no model of what would have happened in the way of erosion if you leave the river as it stands, or with some minor improvements. There is no model of what that would be, and there is nothing about the costs and benefits of alternative schemes of river management.", "Now, Mr. Speaker, I believe the reason Hydro was covering up right now and refusing to present any further documents is simply because they haven’t got them -- they don’t exist. Because it is a political dam. It was brought in to re-elect the member for Renfrew South. They didn’t do --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Yakabuski", "text": [ "That’s a lot of “you know what.”" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "What!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "They didn’t do their homework." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "It is called “oompah.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "That is right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Yakabuski", "text": [ "That is just stupid. The member for Ottawa Centre just doesn’t know the facts." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "I hope the member for Renfrew South then, who appears to know the facts, will try and elucidate to the Legislature during the course of this Throne Speech debate." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "How can he be elected if nobody is in favour of it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Well, I call on Hydro and the government and the member for Renfrew South to get up in this Legislature and provide evidence that this is not a political dam. Because all of the evidence that we’ve had so far indicates --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Yakabuski", "text": [ "It is not a political dam." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "-- that since it is not good for anything else, Mr. Speaker, it must be for political reasons." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "The vote got him elected." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Another thing is, though -- look, I’m a noisy kind of individual as a politician.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "That’s better than some of the deadweight over there." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "On occasion I get a bit nasty with the members opposite, the ministers and people like that. If somebody gets angry with me, Mr. Speaker, in this Legislature for example, that’s fair enough. If somebody gets angry with me as a private citizen, that’s fair enough. But it raises certain questions in my mind when in the presence and with the support of the now president of a large public corporation, a senior executive threatens a member of this Legislature with legal action if he continues to voice criticism of a rather controversial decision or set of decisions by Hydro. It seems to me that is a deliberate attempt to muzzle this Legislature." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "A member is privileged inside the House. Privilege ends when a member walks out the door." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "It’s a matter of concern for the member for Carleton, the member for Renfrew South, the new parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Agriculture and Food and everybody else on the government side of the Legislature as well as people in the Liberal Party and in my party. When people in a government agency seek to threaten legal action against one member of the Legislature, the rights and privileges of all members of the Legislature are affected." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "That was Ross Shouldice, the Tory bagman." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "It’s an aspect, though, Mr. Speaker, of the very defensive way in which Hydro has reacted to the criticism of all this." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Yakabuski", "text": [ "Maybe if we had the other side of the story, the member would be defensive." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Why doesn’t that member give the other side of the story?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "I asked Mr. Morrison --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Yakabuski", "text": [ "The other side of the story is that perhaps legal action should have been taken against the member for Ottawa Centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Then stand up and give it to us." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "All right; I would suggest the member for Renfrew South join in this debate. I have asked the people from Hydro; okay, the member says I am misrepresenting. Give me chapter and verse; I have not had chapter and verse.", "They could’ve written me a letter if they felt like it; they could’ve told me in my presence at that particular meeting. I have not had it. I have done my best to try to stick to the facts that are available on the public record; or where I have had to work out facts and figures on my own, to indicate and to provide to those who are interested the means by which it was arrived at.", "Mr. Speaker, in this affair not only has Hydro reacted very defensively but also the government has. It was during the course of that meeting that I asked for an engineering feasibility study on the Arnprior dam which had been prepared in July, 1970, for Hydro. I have a letter from Mr. Evans in response to a letter of mine concerning that feasibility study. I said: “Could I please have any overall feasibility studies?” Through some mistake that came through to him as, “Could I have a regional feasibility study?” He was puzzled by that; I am puzzled by it. Anyway he said, “We haven’t got that, but we do have the following studies: Two technical; “Community Impact;” “Environmental Impact”; and “Development Engineering.” He said: “You can have any one of them if you ask.”", "I subsequently asked. I thought that by accident the engineering study didn’t come to me and I say that quite honestly to the member for Simcoe Centre. I thought it was purely by accident that the engineering study did not come to me at the time of the initial request. At any rate, I phoned up in early February to say: “I forgot to get this or you forgot to send it to me. Can I please have it. I was told I would get it when I would go over to the meeting with Mr. Evans.", "I asked for it at that time. I was told by Mr. Gordon himself that I had had all the information I was going to have and he was damned if I was going to get any more. That, of course, was the advice he gave to the Minister of Energy as well, that no further information should be given." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)", "text": [ "That’s not very civil." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "That’s not very civil and it suggested that the engineering study is a much more important document than, in fact, I thought. The other documents I have had --", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "-- indicate inadequate study and juvenile or puerile thinking as in the quote from the environmental study I read a few minutes ago. The only thing they indicate really is that Hydro didn’t do any adequate homework.", "Maybe the engineering study is being suppressed by the government because it exposes the fact that there were alternatives which were rejected by Hydro because they would have cost only $1 million or $2 million and wouldn’t have led to the re-election of the member for Renfrew South." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. L. Maeck (Parry Sound)", "text": [ "As soon as the NDP wins the next election, the member will be able to get that stopped." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "That’s right. I see, the member doesn’t think it should happen now? Let him think about it.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "I went and actually had an Interview with the then Provincial Secretary for Resources Development.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "-- in order to talk about this particular project. This was as a follow-up to the letter. I thought that since he had announced the project in 1972, he still might be involved in it; but as we know the then Provincial Secretary for Resources Development hasn’t been involved in very much. I had an hour’s interview with him in his very pleasant office here in this building, at the end of which he said he was sorry but he could not get involved in the questions being raised by the farmers about the Arnprior dam because they owned land that would be flooded by Hydro and therefore, said he, they had a conflict of interest.", "He would not get involved because the farmers who were objecting had a conflict of interest. This is like suggesting that the government will never listen to the labour movement about labour legislation because obviously workers have got a conflict of interest in talking about labour legislation. I suppose the government won’t listen to tenants in talking about landlord and tenant law because tenants have a conflict of interest." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "They listen to doctors, though." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "They listen to doctors, that’s right. Of course it doesn’t make sense; it’s totally inane.", "Then he went on to say: “But of course, if you had a broker who was concerned about the bond ratings for Hydro or some fellow from the University of Toronto who knows what our experts know, then we’ll listen to him.” But he wouldn’t listen to people who were directly involved.", "Mr. Speaker, the response from the other members was most illuminating. The Minister of Agriculture and Food didn’t want to go to the defence of his own people and he simply said he had forwarded copies of my correspondence to the member for Simcoe Centre. The Minister of Labour said he had referred it to the member for Simcoe Centre, and his letter was dated a day later than the letter from the Minister of Agriculture and Food The Minister of Energy has sent my correspondence to him about this affair to the member for Simcoe Centre. The Minister of Industry and Tourism said the facts would be thoroughly reviewed. He advised that as recently as Feb. 12 a meeting had been held on the subject and the contents of my letter were taken into consideration.", "Clearly there was a joint decision by people in the cabinet who might have been involved that they were simply going to join in the cover-up by not replying and by not looking into the facts, but by taking the words and opinions of the member for Simcoe Centre and of the people from Hydro as gospel. So as a consequence, among other things there has been no examination by those people, those ministers, in view of the valid questions raised about the Arnprior project. Further information has been suppressed by the government as far as members of the Legislature are concerned. That was confirmed today after a paean of praise to Hydro by the Premier himself. It appears that the government has simply taken the view that we shouldn’t have the facts.", "Well now what’s curious about that, Mr. Speaker, is the fact that the flow of information has not been cut off completely. In fact, on one hand we had the Minister of Energy speaking to the municipal electrical association a while ago about the Arnprior dam and saying that he had reviewed the facts and found that Hydro has not failed to be guided by public policy and therefore he had concluded it would be inappropriate to interfere. If any damage existed to the local farmers, said the minister, then the correct procedure was an appeal to the courts rather than to the ministry. That was the Minister of Energy on March 5.", "It was only days later, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Energy, the new Provincial Secretary for Resources Development (Mr. Grossman) and the Minister of Agriculture and Food were holding a meeting with representatives of the Federation of Agriculture. In other words, the minister was not saying privately what he was saying publicly.", "During the course of that meeting, I understand, Hydro changed its tune as regards compensation and now the sky is the limit. It has decided under prodding from the Minister of Energy -- who apparently is still interfering, or is involved -- that Hydro will try to buy the farmers out because it simply can’t afford to keep on with the kind of flak it has been receiving on this particular subject.", "Not only that, Mr. Speaker, I understand that certain documents from Acres and from Hydro have been given to the Federation of Agriculture concerning the Arnprior dam. I would suggest that is also a matter of concern for members of this Legislature -- if we don’t get the documents, such as this feasibility study, and yet other people get them. I have no objection; I think it’s probably a good thing that that document goes forward to the Federation of Agriculture. What I resent, Mr. Speaker, is the fact that that same information is not being given to the Legislature; that Hydro and that the Minister of Energy and that the whole government are playing games with this Legislature when they are meant to be accountable to the parliament of the Province of Ontario.", "Mr. Speaker, let me talk very briefly. I don’t know if I can finish this by 5 o’clock or not; I’ll do my best, though." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "No, give it to them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have said that Hydro has misrepresented the situation. Let me give you a few examples, Mr. Speaker. One example is simply the statement that Hydro has had the approval of the local communities, and the fact is that apart from the council of the town of Arnprior that is not the case. It has had a letter from the mayor of Arnprior saying that the other three municipal heads agree, but it has never even asked the other municipalities to be involved.", "In an article in Hydro News, Mr. Speaker, Hydro summed up the opposition to the dam by referring to one 86-year-old farmer who didn’t welcome Hydro’s property assessors -- implying that only old fogies, people in their 80s and 90s who were sort of tradition bound, could oppose themselves to progress.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson (Victoria-Haliburton)", "text": [ "Oh, come on.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, in this document on the Arnprior power project, which is sent out to every schoolboy or anybody else who inquires about the particular project --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Yakabuski", "text": [ "Tell the truth now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "-- Hydro refers --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Yakabuski", "text": [ "What about the municipal councils? Did they pass resolutions objecting to the project?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "No, they did not pass resolutions, but they --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Yakabuski", "text": [ "So they did not object. Evidently they approved of the project." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "They have never been asked by Hydro for their opinion and Hydro itself simply said: “Look we want these guys on the committee; and that is it, baby, that is it.”", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "The whole public participation in that area by Hydro has been a total disaster. The whole public participation has been a total disaster.", "Mr. Yakabuski: Finally, the frustrated Lanark Liberals saw an opportunity to raise hell, it’s that simple. Straight politics." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "It is a bunch of farmers who are frustrated because they can’t get justice from this government; and their problems in getting justice --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Yakabuski", "text": [ "How many of them haven’t reached an agreement?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Their problems in getting justice from this government are paralleled by farmers in other parts of the province, are paralleled by welfare recipients, are paralleled by tenants, are paralleled by any number of people. The entire population of the north has been trying to get justice from this government for 30 years and hasn’t been able to get it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "Well we have got a comedian in the House." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "The member is wasting his time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Boy, the hon. member for Timiskaming should wait until we get going on Maple Mountain, because the mistakes they made --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order; order please." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "The member is the biggest mistake one could make." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Yakabuski", "text": [ "You know, some of his own members fear for his re-election." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Is that right? Okay; occasionally I fear for it myself.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "I will grant to the hon. member there is still a strong Liberal contingent in my riding, but we hope to dispose of them in the next federal election.", "Mr. Speaker, since the hon. member for Renfrew South wants to talk about public participation, I want to say that today I was before the Energy Board seeking their permission to --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "He is not a fighter though, like some people." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "Pardon?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "He is not a fighter like some people." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, order.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "At the Energy Board this morning, Mr. Speaker, I presented a motion to submit to the Energy Board a dossier on the Arnprior dam and on the implications of the dam for Hydro’s management procedures and financial policies.", "One of the things that came up there was a discussion that was held in the last couple of days of the Hydro hearings, phase one, before the Energy Board, at which time the general manager of Hydro was being questioned by counsel from Pollution Probe. The questioning from counsel for Pollution Probe was on public participation.", "And what was said at that time, Mr. Speaker, by the Hydro people, was: “But of course we have a commitment to public participation. We have learned our lesson and for the last two or three years we have been doing it. Look at the Solandt inquiry into the transmission lines. Look at what we are doing up at Nanticoke or other places.” Then the Pollution Probe counsel said: “If that is, the case, why has there been no participation with the Arnprior project?” Right away, Mr. Speaker, counsel for Hydro was on his feet and he said, “I object” --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "He didn’t want it discussed, because Hydro is paranoid about this particular project and it knows of the way in which it has failed with any kind of meaningful public participation.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, in its representation to the Ontario Energy Board, Hydro stated:", "“In keeping with its policy of informing or communicating with the public, Ontario Hydro is engaged in holding public meetings to ascertain the views and feelings of local citizens’ groups and municipal officials with regard to the impact which projected facilities might have on particular localities. There is increasing interaction between Hydro and the government and between Hydro and the community in the planning process.”", "They talk, in other words, a fairly good game about the way in which they want to encourage public participation.", "The chairman of Hydro, on Jan. 18, sent around an outline of its programme for the participation of citizens in the expansion of electric power facilities. He said that Ontario Hydro has pioneered the programme, implying that this has already been under way for some time. The letter states specifically that the procedures were intended to be flexible in their application, that greater participation of the public in planning would occur with respect to those projects in which there was a strong public interest indicated and this would be modified for projects less controversial.", "Well I have to ask you first, Mr. Speaker, what project is there in the province right now that could be more controversial among Hydro generating stations than the Arnprior project? Second, where else, on the face of the evidence available so far, is Hydro going to spend so much -- $70 million still to spend -- to get so little in actual return?", "If Mr. Gathercole is sincere in stating that the participation by the public will increase in areas where there is great public interest indicated, then clearly Hydro, without pressure from the government, should agree now to suspend the work on the Arnprior dam, to look at the alternatives, to hold an inquiry and to get the local community participating in looking at the alternatives.", "Well, Mr. Speaker, when one looks at the brochure they have sent around about procedures for public participation -- and one has to assume this is current Hydro policy -- one finds that after public announcement of the route or the site -- this would be in 1971 in this particular case -- there then should have been meetings with the public and with special interest groups. But they haven’t been held.", "There should have been internal study to identify alternatives; that study does not appear to have taken place. There should have been continued meetings with the public and special interest groups to talk about the alternative generating sites and to provide details of environmental factor ratings and to provide economic comparison of the alternatives. As far as I can see. that economic comparison has not been validly done, even for internal use within Hydro.", "They also should have determined public opinion on the evaluation of the alternatives; again this has not been done.", "After the submission to the Minister of Energy, there should then have been a decision on a public hearing by the Minister of Energy in conjunction with other ministries. Yet the ministry and the government are rejecting any kind of a public hearing before the Environmental Hearing Board or before any other body.", "That’s the amount of public participation that is actually taking place, Mr. Speaker. And it’s a concern because the people who got to know Hydro best from the outside were the people who did the Task Force Hydro study; among them, unfortunately, the present president, Mr. Gordon. They make a number of criticisms about the way in which Hydro has worked in the past, but then they say: “We urge that the efforts now under way increasingly to involve the public in Hydro affairs be continued.” Fair enough. I continue to quote:", "“We urge this while recognizing that the procedures used will produce little in the way of positive results, in the absence of a widespread commitment to the principles involved and a response to the changing social environment by a majority of those responsible for Hydro’s operations.”", "The acid test of Hydro’s commitment to public involvement over recent months has been the Arnprior dam. If you look at it, Mr. Speaker, you get the president of Hydro refusing information. You get senior executives threatening legal action. You get the Minister of Energy backing up the suppression of information. You get the minister flying in and refusing to listen to local requests that the project be reviewed or halted, and sending the bulldozers in on the day that he is there. There is clearly no commitment there, Mr. Speaker.", "It is very difficult to expect that Hydro is going to change its stripes or suddenly turn over a new leaf, if that’s the way it has been behaving as recently as not just six months ago, but as recently as today when the Premier backed up his ministers on this particular subject.", "Those comments about Hydro were made on Aug. 15, 1972, when the first report of the task force was presented to the ministry. At that point, there were recommendations specifically about improving the liaison between Hydro and the citizen, including establishing a channel where representation from citizens could go forward to senior bodies in Hydro, that there be talk, and that Hydro consider establishing citizens’ task forces so as to provide for citizen participation in the location of generation and transmission facilities.", "If there was any commitment, Mr. Speaker, we should surely have seen some response by now. But I am afraid that we haven’t seen that up until this time.", "Mr. Speaker, I want to go back to the point I was making when I was interrupted by the member for Renfrew South and that was on the question of misrepresentation. Hydro goes ahead saying it has community approval. That is a matter in dispute. Hydro says there are problems of bank erosion and turbidity in the reservoir, and it says that to provide a final solution it has decided to build a dam on the lake. It is clear from subsequent evidence that that will not be a final solution.", "Hydro states that there will be 48 miles of shoreline for canoeing, sailing and other recreational uses. This was in April of last year. Most of that shore land will not be of use for those purposes. Power boats will have to be kept off the lake: and it is simply not suitable, much of it, for septic tanks, and therefore for any kind of residential work. Hydro says the peak work force of 1,600 or 1,700 will be mostly drawn from the local area -- again a misrepresentation, Mr. Speaker.", "Then we get into material which was sent to me by the member for Simcoe Centre and material which has been sent to me and made available locally. Maybe the member for Renfrew South was on hand the other week when a meeting was held -- a public meeting this time -- by Hydro in Arnprior to unveil plans for development of the river front area downstream from the dam. Hydro put up a pretty terrific show. There are a swimming pool and senior citizen accommodation predicted. They are going to have -- let’s see now -- playgrounds, park benches, all sorts of facilities there." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Yakabuski", "text": [ "Is the member opposed to parks there?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Of course I am not opposed. I would have thought that that kind of development might have been one of the kinds of things that Hydro might have considered. Even steam baths, who knows.", "But when you looked at the plan in detail though, Mr. Speaker, you found out the following: What Hydro had given to the town of Arnprior -- a town which recently, about a year or two earlier, had rejected in referendum a proposal for a debenture for a new swimming pool complex -- was a blueprint for a recreation area for which Arnprior would pay most of the cost. Hydro said specifically that it would provide green grass, the contours, a handful of park benches, a handful of picnic tables, and a children’s playground which cost $4,000 or $5,000.", "The contribution of Arnprior would be to find funding for the senior citizen housing and the other housing, would be to find funding for the swimming pool, and -- get this, Mr. Speaker -- would be to move its sewage treatment plant to the other side of town at an expenditure of at least $1 million, maybe more, but something in that particular order. The swimming pool, in fact, would be located in place of the present sewage treatment plant. Clearly, the plan was completely unfeasible so long as there was a sewage treatment plant in the middle of it.", "That’s misrepresentation, when Hydro does a great PR effort, Mr. Speaker, to try to convince Arnprior it is going to have this magnificent park -- and conceals in the fine print the fact that it’s only willing to put a few thousand dollars into anything except the grass and trees.", "I have a few more comments, Mr. Speaker, but I wanted to get this matter on the record; and perhaps now is a convenient time to adjourn the debate; I so move.", "Mr. Cassidy moves the adjournment of the debate.", "Motion agreed to." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. P. G. Givens (York-Forest Hill)", "text": [ "This bill establishes a commissioner of housing and provides for the licensing of builders." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The motion is now before the House. The hon. member may proceed." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Givens", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker. I would like the hon. members to appreciate the fact that, in discussing this bill, I really want to discuss the principles of the bill rather than the terms of the bill section by section.", "This has been a Gordian knot, a very difficult problem that people have been wrestling with at all levels of government. I understand that there has been a federal government invitation extended to the provincial Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations (Mr. Clement) to a meeting in Ottawa on April 8 on the question of consumer protection systems and to discuss warranties for housing in Canada. I don’t know if the minister has replied to this invitation, but that is what they are going to be discussing in Ottawa.", "I do think that under the property and civil rights section of the British North America Act, this is really a matter that comes within the purview of the province. So I want to discuss these principles involved in the bill, rather than section by section, because maybe the “i’s” weren’t dotted properly or the “t’s” crossed properly; but it is the essence, the pith and substance that I wish to accomplish and I want to place before the members of this House.", "Mr. Speaker, we all know that the purchase of a house by any citizen in most cases is probably the biggest investment that that person will make in his lifetime -- and particularly today. We’ve heard evidence given in this chamber that the average house in the city of Toronto is worth something in the nature of $50,000, and that within the next 15 or 20 years the average house in Metropolitan Toronto will probably be worth $100,000 -- and new houses will be worth considerably more than that.", "Under the terms of our law, common law, when a person buys a house -- particularly an old house -- the doctrine of caveat emptor prevails, which means “Let the buyer beware.” And when you buy a house you’re supposed to see all the defects -- all the patent defects and all the latent defects. You are responsible. The purchaser is responsible for what he buys. It is up to him to satisfy himself that the property is in good condition.", "When a person buys a new property, the law that substantially applies is that the work should be completed in a good, workmanlike manner. He sometimes buys the house as plans. He sometimes doesn’t see the house before it’s completed: or he probably closes the deal before the house is completed.", "If the deal is closed and the purchaser assumes the ownership of the house, all he has left is perhaps an undertaking which is given to his solicitor on closing which enables him to have a cause of action in the law courts.", "What generally happens is that the day for closing comes to pass. The person’s made an investment; he’s paid a deposit to the agent. The deposit money is impounded in a trust account which the agent is supposed to hold until the deal is closed, and generally his commission of about five per cent comes out of that deposit.", "The man goes to a lawyer who searches the title. All the lawyer is responsible for are the legal aspects of searching the title and satisfying him that he has a clear title. The lawyer invariably will not go out to visit the house. In 99 per cent of the cases, I don’t think a lawyer acting for a purchaser ever goes out to visit the house.", "The purchaser may kid himself that because he’s assuming a large mortgage or because he’s been approved by a large mortgage-lending company this means that somehow the mortgage company or the insurance company or the trust company or whoever the lender happens to be bears some responsibility or is conscientiously concerned with whether or not the house is in good condition. Nothing could be further from the truth.", "The date for closing comes; the house isn’t really finished. The purchaser takes a look at it and he’s just about ready to have a fit because certain things have not taken place. I don’t know whether any members have ever attended a registry office on a day when a deal is closed. Generally, deals are closed on the first of the month, the middle of the month and the end of the month and when one goes down to the registry office, it’s just like going to the Calgary Stampede. There are probably as many people in the registry office on those usual closing days as at the Stampede. This does not mean one can’t close a deal on any other day but usually these are the days when the deals are closed and when one goes down, it’s a madhouse.", "Usually the lawyer to whom one is paying the fee is not there to close the deal. He either sends a law student, which is like having a medical student take out your appendix, or one of these new title searchers that most law offices have -- some of the bigger offices may have several of them -- who close the deal. Of course they are under the direction or supervision of the lawyer but 90 per cent of the time the lawyer doesn’t know what’s going on when the deal is being closed. He gives his student or his clerk instructions as to how to close it and he says, “If you can’t close it, if there are things that are unfinished, get an undertaking.” The undertaking is generally worth the paper it’s written on; and sometimes it isn’t even worth that.", "Of course, the purchaser has this option: or the solicitor’s clerk has this option; or the solicitor himself. He can say to the vendor-builder, “Go jump in the lake. You haven’t finished these things and I’m not going to close the deal.” In which case the purchaser, his client, feels very bad because he’s told the whole world he’s buying a house -- his family, his mother, his wife and his children -- and he’s ready to move in. He’s borrowed a first mortgage; he’s borrowed a second mortgage from a finance company and a third mortgage from Uncle Joe to pay for the furniture and he wants to move in. He’s always afraid that if he doesn’t close the deal he’s going to lose the house, especially nowadays when we’ve all heard there’s a terrific sellers’ market going on. No purchaser wants to be put in that terrible position.", "He says to the lawyer, “You’re my legal adviser; tell me what to do.” The lawyer invariably says, “All right, we’ll take an undertaking from Joe Blow Construction Co. that he’ll fix the drainboard and cement up the crack in the joists and fix the plaster that’s coming apart in the bedroom and sod your lawn and grade your driveway and all that sort of thing, and we will hope for the best. If he doesn’t finish this work, God dam it, we’ll sue him! We’ll take him to court; we’ll drag him right through the courts.”", "Usually, the lawyer who handles a real estate deal is a person who’s not involved in litigation practice. He generally doesn’t know how to issue a writ or a statement of claim and he wants to avoid a legal action like the plague. He takes the undertaking and he figures he’ll hope for the best. What he’s got for himself with a signed undertaking, even from the best of legal firms, is the right of action.", "There are still those people, Mr. Speaker, who think that a trial in court is an impartial investigation into the truth, into the facts. Nothing could be further from the truth. We hope that it’s an impartial investigation and that justice will be done but this isn’t necessarily what happens in a court of law. As we all know, we have the adversary system and sometimes it’s a matter of how one adduces evidence, what one draws out of witnesses and what happens in court; who falls down on the job; who tells the truth and who appears to tell the truth; and who tells the truth better than somebody else tells the truth. All these things come into play. Sometimes one will institute an action and it may conceivably take two years or more before the case comes to court because the courts are so crowded today.", "This man and his family have moved in and the house hasn’t been finished properly and he has no protection at all. Even under the Law Society’s errors and omissions insurance, for which all we lawyers who belong to the Law Society have been circularized, where we have to pay so much money into an insurance fund to see that clients are protected from errors and omissions that we may make, the only thing that they are protected from, by our taking out this insurance is for damages because of the lawyer’s professional negligence or because of the negligence of any other person for whose act he is legally responsible, committed in the performance of professional services for others in the insured’s capacity as a lawyer.", "The lawyer is not responsible nor is the purchaser, his client, protected from any error or omission which a lawyer might make with respect to the actual completion of the physical work that is done on the house. This is something aside and apart from a lawyer’s responsibility. So he has no protection. Yet when he goes out and buys a household appliance, whether it is a vacuum cleaner or whether it is a television set, invariably he gets a piece of paper, a warranty, which says that the X company will protect him for malfunctions in this particular piece of equipment. But for the house in which he is sinking $50,000 over the course of a lifetime -- or what is probably more close to the truth, $80,000 or $90,000 or $100,000 nowadays -- he has no protection at all.", "Generally, the builder is a company man who has incorporated himself and builds 10 or 15 houses in a subdivision. He has a way of disappearing after he has built the house. There is no firm that I know of in the house building business that can be considered to be in the nature of General Motors or Ford or Chrysler. No matter what one wants to say about these companies, these companies can sometimes be embarrassed, if one has a case against them, into solving the problem for one. There are no home builders that I know of that are in that position.", "Of course, some of them are good builders, and reputable builders. But I’m talking about a lot of builders who are in the business who afford no protection to a purchaser at all. He is in the driver’s seat, particularly in a seller’s market. He says, “If you don’t want the house, Mr. Jones, don’t take it. I’ll give you back your money. I can sell it next week for another $2,000 or $3,000 or $5,000. The purchaser is in an awful position under these circumstances.", "Then there is the expense that is involved in trying to get the house finished, in dunning the vendor-builder to complete the house properly, to build the thing in a proper and workmanlike manner. Then even after one has gone to court, and maybe got a judgement after two, or two and a half or three years, it could very well be a worthless judgement, because by this time the builder may be out of business and may be nowhere to be found and one has got oneself a piece of paper that really doesn’t mean anything.", "Under its terms, this bill would provide protection for purchasers of new homes. I don’t want to talk about old homes for the moment, because that has to do with other principles of law, although the parameters of this bill could also serve the purpose of protecting people when they buy older homes.", "This bill will appoint a commissioner of housing, who will administer the Act. It will provide that new homes built in Ontario should be built to the minimum standards of an Ontario building code, which we haven’t seen any signs of yet, but which the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations has promised will be forthcoming.", "There is no piece of legislation which is as vital and as important and which is as emergent and necessary to be passed by this Legislature as the new Ontario building code.", "Under this bill these houses are to be inspected at least four times during the construction period. They are to be warranted by the builder against all hidden defects which are described in law as latent defects for a period of five years after completion of construction. How is a person to find hidden defects when he doesn’t know about looking into the footings or looking into the joists or looking into the foundations of the building, when people today aren’t used to this sort of thing and are not equipped to be able to make these inspections on their own?", "So it will protect against all hidden defects for a period of five years after completion of construction, and against all obvious defects for a period of one year after completion of construction. By obvious defects I mean what are called patent defects. When you walk in and see a crack in the plaster that is pretty serious, you can demand that it be fixed, and it should be fixed over a period of one year.", "Further, the vendor, the builder of a new house, must point out all obvious defects to the prospective purchaser which will be noted on a form, agreement of purchase or sale of the house, prescribed by the commissioner.", "After all, he is building the house, he has known what he has done wrong, unless he has done it accidentally, and he should be required to list in the offer to purchase -- which is the offer both the purchaser and the vendor sign, which forms the contract of the purchase or sale -- what the obvious defects are for the prospective purchaser.", "Any grievances that the purchaser has for the money that he is putting into this house -- of $50,000, $60,000, $70,000 or $80,000 -- may be brought forward and heard by the commissioner, who will thereby render a decision which, if not agreeable to the parties concerned, may be handed over to a court of law as a last resort if this is necessary, if something has to be adjudicated between the parties.", "And lastly -- and what to me is of vital importance -- the commissioner shall provide for an insurance fund into which all builders must contribute in the event that a builder may not be able to compensate the house owner, such as in the case of bankruptcy. This isn’t so unusual. It isn’t so outrageous. Those of us who are lawyers pay into what I call the thieves’ fund of the Law Society of Upper Canada, for defalcations and for things that lawyers do wrong, deliberately or not so deliberately, to hurt their clients, where the clients suffer damage on a client-solicitor relationship. So it is no different than it is in that case.", "I think it is highly necessary that at long last the doctrine of caveat emptor, and the common law applying to fixing a house in a good workmanlike manner, should be tossed into the ashcan. The law should be revised and reformed to bring it into what is required in the present day, protection to the consumer when he buys a house and makes the biggest investment of his life. He should be protected by this Legislature. We owe it to him.", "The people who will object will say this will increase the bureaucracy. I suppose in a way it will, but it won’t increase it any more than the amount of litigation that you find in the courts today on the part of purchasers who find themselves in court because of builders who have ripped them off. Reputable builders have nothing to fear about harassment. They will continue to be reputable builders. But protection must be afforded to people who suffer from those who are illegitimate in the business and who try to get away with things.", "People will say, as another objection, that costs will increase, that the cost of this inspection and the cost of this adjudication and the cost of running the insurance fund will increase. I suppose it will, and it will probably be passed on to the buyer in certain cases, Mr. Speaker. But I suggest this: If you are walking along the street and you are assaulted and somebody steals your wallet or your purse and you happen to have $500 or $1,000 in it, the law goes to a great deal of --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. F. Young (Yorkview)", "text": [ "That much in your purse?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Givens", "text": [ "Well, this is after payday, when you have cashed your cheque and you are walking home. The law is going to spend an awful lot of money to get the police force out to find this crook, or this burglar when your house is ransacked and they take your cash or your jewels or whatever you happen to have there. You expect the law to stretch out its dragnet and then catch the burglar who has robbed you.", "I don’t see any difference between that situation, to tell you the truth, Mr. Speaker, and the builder who sells a house to an unsuspecting buyer and tries to get away with this same kind of ripoff or this same kind of burglary. So I think, whatever increase in bureaucracy there may be, or whatever increase in costs there would be, that it is very essential that this kind of protection be afforded to the people who are spending thousands and thousands of dollars on the purchase of a home and are taken advantage of from day to day.", "It is almost a daily occurrence. It has become so prevalent and the outcry for this kind of legislation is so universal at every level of government, that I think if we don’t take cognizance of this problem and come in with some intelligent form of legislation -- such as the bill that I presented here -- the House Buyers’ Protection Act, 1973 -- we will be doing a very serious and grave injustice to the people of this province who buy homes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Peel South." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. D. Kennedy (Peel South)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity to join in this debate and to commend the member for York-Forest Hill for bringing his bill forward.", "I’m not so sure we agree on the details, and he made reference to that point but the fact is that it is an issue -- and an important issue. To those who have experienced confusion and concern about what is probably the major purchase in their whole lives. I think such action in bringing this forward is very timely, if not a bit late.", "Regarding the bill itself, the hon. member did mention the risk of bureaucracy, and I would have to agree, on reading this most comprehensive bill, that indeed there would have to be quite an empire built to administer it.", "I would like to touch on a couple of sections, then I want to make some reference to some experiences I have had. I notice by the roster of speakers, Mr. Speaker, that this is more or less a lawyers’ hour --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. P. D. Lawlor (Lakeshore)", "text": [ "Not really -- it’s half and half." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Young", "text": [ "He will bring some common sense into the situation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Kennedy", "text": [ "-- and I feel as if I’m intruding into the adjudication of this item." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. H. Worton (Wellington South)", "text": [ "It’s nice to have some common sense." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Kennedy", "text": [ "Yes, we’ll bring in something from the consumer’s point of view rather than the ethereal heights of the legal profession." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "The word is not “ethereal.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Kennedy", "text": [ "In section 4(a), I can see a problem there in assessing what is reasonable. I can see someone getting hit on fairly weak grounds.", "On the matter of integrity and honesty in section 4(b), I think the licensee, the builder, has to demonstrate integrity and honesty. He should need to do this whether we have a bill or not. If he has been in trouble and is reformed, well, let him prove it. We don’t want to deter a person from earning a legitimate living." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "The government does it with respect to the rest of its licensing legislation. That’s a normal clause." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Kennedy", "text": [ "Oh no. No. No. There is opportunity --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "We passed 15 bills last spring with that clause in them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Kennedy", "text": [ "The hon. member for Lakeshore is very hot on this matter of appeal -- he and McRuer -- and I go along with that. But in the first part of the bill, the thrust is toward financial stability and capacity, and perhaps there’s an excessive demand in this bill for demonstrating that. A person can be poor but honest. Would the member for Lakeshore agree?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Givens", "text": [ "He is both." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "My friend doesn’t care whether he can build or not, as long as he has lots of money?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Kennedy", "text": [ "Yes, he can have both.", "But section 10 makes reference to the inspector going in to seize the books and accounts and so on. Unless the member has some other qualifications in mind, and with all respect to the abilities of the building inspectors I know, it is a pretty professional person who will be needed to go in and make a meaningful assessment", "The five-year period mentioned in section 21, the warranty section, is really the key to the purchaser having that protection. Five years is a fairly long time, and often we can’t catch the builder or the sub within five days after he has done his work; I don’t know how we’d get him after five years.", "My few comments in summary are that I think that this bill goes too far, it’s pretty harsh and it would require a bureaucracy to administer. And I would like to think that we can get a more simplified method of ensuring quality workmanship.", "The city of Mississauga has been involved with this and I have had correspondence from disappointed, disgusted purchasers. The city of Mississauga came up with something through its building inspector, based on the two problems we seem to have.", "I am not aware that there have been a great many bankruptcies. I think this type of builder is gone, as the small builder is, and anyway if there have been bankruptcies I haven’t heard of them. The complaints they do get are about shoddy workmanship and that the builder will not deliver the home on the promised completion date.", "This is reflected in a report by the commissioner that suggests we establish a firm completion date and failure to fulfil that contract would bring a levy of $30 a day against the contractor. The other provision, to make sure there is quality workmanship, so when he does come back to get it done, is a $1,500 hold-back. Maybe the sum isn’t important, but it seems to me some provision such as this would avoid all the dragging through the courts which the hon. member mentions.", "We had a court case a couple of weeks ago based on violation of the local building bylaw. It went before a court and I don’t believe the builder offered a defence, at least not a legal defence. He appeared himself and the JP, a sitting justice, slapped a $500 fine on him. He now has that under appeal and it will go to the county court, as I understand it. So you may get the fine in, as the hon. member may very well say, but this doesn’t do anything for the poor purchaser who is still left with defective workmanship.", "I have a couple of letters here explaining some of the problems. They are minor in that they don’t come within the terms of the building bylaw -- for instance, the porch railings are not properly installed, or the cupboards are crooked, or the paint is the wrong colour or there is no paint at all, things as those, which aren’t covered under the bylaw. This is what bothers people. They go in on the expectation that they will have certain things. But they aren’t there. I wrote to these builders Oct. 29 and I still await a reply. I am not going to get one. Whether there has been remedial action taken I am not sure. So those are some of points that are raised.", "When this resolution came forward it interested the Toronto Builders’ Association. I will say that they were rather receptive to it; they weren’t hostile. They did think that this practice of optimistic estimates of completion dates could be misleading and they didn’t object that provincial legislation might be brought down. They squealed a bit on the suggestion that they would have to provide a hold-back or a licence or some such fee as that.", "There was a suggestion there would be a $50 fee to cover inspection costs, and they pointed out that if there are 7,000 homes built, this multiplied by $50 is $350,000, which is going to cause great escalation of house prices. Do the members know what those 7,000 homes might sell for? If my zeroes are right, something like $280 million, and they are talking about one-tenth or one-fifteenth of one per cent. They can change a levy even for the permit or for the installation of one of the services, water or sewers. They can change those levies. There is no validity to that argument at all.", "It seems my time has run out, Mr. Speaker. I had some other notes here but I think the remedy could be in the areas I have discussed -- a possible hold-back fee, or maybe the insurance fund would be the answer. I can see a little bit of difficulty with the fund -- just that it takes time and a certain amount of work to make it effective and finally resolve the problem. A person has to put a claim in and get it inspected and all of this. I think money seems to have a very, very effective effect, if I can use that term, in bringing this into line. Maybe this, along with the fact that the loser would pay the costs, would ensure there would be no frivolous claims and there could be a reasonable meeting of the minds. Certainly Mr. Speaker, the situation isn’t satisfactory now and I think action should be taken." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon member for Lakeshore." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. You know, Mr. Speaker, that if the hon. member who introduced this legislation were ever initiated into an Indian band, I would give him the high recommendation to designate himself Chingachgook. He is truly the last of the Mohicans.", "The tenor of his remarks, the general slant in the House by and large, is that he like Chingachgook, wishes to live in some kind of remote and primeval forest and espouse, as the archpatriarch, all things connected with the free-enterprise system. But when the shoe pinches -- even if you wear Dacks -- then suddenly they come forward with some monstrosity whereby to rectify a very great evil indeed. No one questions the impact of the chicanery of house builders and the very machinations they send both their clientele through and in which they involve themselves. We are up against them all the time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)", "text": [ "Aided and abetted by the legal profession." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "It is the legal profession that seeks to rectify and straighten these things out, except for that portion which represents these beggars. But I wonder if this is the way to do it. I would like to scout the legislation and spend a few moments on it.", "I am sure that if the member for York-Forest Hill saw legislation which was as onerous and intricate and bureaucratic as this introduced in the House, he would be the first on his feet to find it obnoxious and basically repellant. I can only point out in bemusement and irony that these curious twists occur in this House. Consider the clause that the hon. member mentioned a few moments ago, clause 4, with its very great emphasis upon the financial integrity -- the position and capability from a financial point of view -- of people in the building game and the inquisition that would go on in that particular respect.", "But that’s not what bothers me. He sets up a commission of housing under governmental auspices which is to inspect every new house in this province. That would, I suppose, include condominium units, co-operative apartments, apartment buildings them- selves, and not just residences as far as I can see. There are literally thousands and I would hope there would be a darn sight more -- and there would be were this government not in power. But the figure of 7,000 was mentioned here, and I am sure that doesn’t cover all the condominium units in the Metropolitan area of Toronto alone and that’s 28,000 inspections.", "In other words, you are going to get a little contingent --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Kennedy", "text": [ "That is just one municipality." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "-- a little contingent! A very massive contingent indeed -- of inspectors, a bureaucratic paraphernalia of such girth, depth and height that it would be quite appalling. It may be necessary at some time to call it into being, but other nostrums have been put forward and not mentioned in the course of this debate. The Conservative member for Peel South sees it very fit to ignore the negligence and total irresponsibility of his own government.", "In 1968, as one of the first steps in the work of the Law Reform Commission of this province, they moved and brought forward to this House and to the consideration of the government a report called “Trade-sale of New Houses; the Doctrine of Caveat Emptor.” Where are the proposals? They were far more modest proposals that are made here. They didn’t involve a monstrous spawning of the bureaucratic structure as the present proposals do.", "I give the member great credit for having the social conscience and the sense that this is a great affliction in our midst. It is, but we don’t want on the whole to cure the disease by a form of diarrhoea. It just doesn’t help in that way.", "If you look at the nostrums contained in the report -- I have fundamental disagreements with this document too, but it concerns special kinds of trades which are defined very acutely in the legislation in new houses too. The hon. member’s legislation, while it fails in terms of scope to provide in a deliberate way, except in certain of its paragraphs, a coverage for and a protection for the older houses -- leaving that aside -- the same fallacy exists within the dimensions of these particular recommendations. In the course of these recommendations, six different approaches were outlined and most of them discounted.", "The first discount was precisely the overtures being made by the hon. member for York-Forest Hill today. The first was registration of builders. The second was inspection during construction. The third was insurance. Let me pause there because I think there is validity in the insurance concept and in a fund being set up.", "As has been pointed out, the amount of money is not really inflationary in terms of the overall market. That would give some repository, some defence and some place to which people could advert, instead of necessarily going to the courts, in order to get some relief from what builders pull on people. The fourth is quality control by mortgagees or guarantors. The fifth is warranties implied by law and the sixth is obligations imposed by statute. This commission comes down squarely on the last, the sixth, that is obligations imposed by statute, dismissing all the rest.", "If I may just advert to what was said in 1968 by the commission, which gave it some thought, and which, I think, are very sage proposals. They run through a preamble in which they say that the free enterprise system would be placed in jeopardy. I would have thought that the Law Reform Commission was above these particular policy considerations but it does go to the trouble of quoting some benighted judge who is in favour of that particular system.", "Then the members got down to practical matters and said this was not enough; a registration scheme would have a number of practical drawbacks affecting its advisability. For instance, as a result of the number of builders, the amount of new house construction and the sheer size of our province, the inspectorate which would be required to make a registration scheme work would have to be very large. The registrar or the body charged with the duty to register builders, discipline them and, in proper cases, suspend or revoke their registration would be fixed with an enormous and highly contentious task. The programme that would probably have to be undertaken would involve first the registration of any and all applicants and then a systematic weeding out of those builders who did not keep up whatever standards were required. The result of this would probably be a good many appeals from the registrar’s decision with consequent additional expenditure of public and private money. The commission said, “At this stage such a drastic solution does not recommend itself.” What recommended itself in their case was a retention of the court apparatus but strengthening the position of the individual if he is forced into the court.", "I would think, in my rather narrow practice of law, that we ran into this situation with new houses once every 50 houses, maybe. There are all kinds of contentions with the others, I admit, but I mean really a crux case; a case where one wants to take it to court. Maybe it is even less than one in 50; one can usually bring them to heel by talking." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Kennedy", "text": [ "It is one in 10 builders." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "If one can’t one has to resort to the courts. The trouble at the moment, and it is not very much rectified in the proposed legislation, is the warranty involved.", "There ought not be a warranty concept at all first of all because that involves damages only. It ought to be a conditional concept that the house is such and such so that the contract can be rescinded. If one doesn’t want to rescind it one can go on suing for damages and get it. Their recommendations contained precisely the kind of conditions which would be imposed. A new house built should be fit for habitation -- that would be one of the terms, not an implied warranty term but a statutory obligation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "There are 60 seconds remaining." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "Members would be pleased to know that the other three major proposals would very much strengthen the hand of a plaintiff and would keep most cases out of court as it exists at the present time. Please, I say to the government, let it bring in its own legislation and it won’t have to adopt some monstrosity in order to rectify a great ill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for St. George." ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. M. Campbell (St. George)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, following the member for Lakeshore and his passionate and impassioned speech on this matter is very difficult. There is no question that legislation of this kind is not an ideal. Certainly, on a clause by clause provision, I think the proposer himself made it clear that he was speaking to a principle.", "At this point in this province we are heading into a situation of homelessness. Certainly in some areas this is very clear. When we’re facing that situation, to talk about other forms of legislation, to talk about the long road to legislation which will protect the individual without setting up any kind of bureaucracy and to talk about all of the things that could be done, which after 30-odd years of this government haven’t been done, seem to me to be speaking of an ideal rather than, with respect, facing the situation as it is today.", "Much has been said by all of the speakers up until now about the matter of new houses. I would like, if I may for a moment, just look at the situation as it exists in some of our major urban areas, and particularly this one, where we have a new type of entrepreneur who is buying up old and existing stock and renovating it.", "I am concerned deeply about the standards of renovation. I’m not suggesting these people are not doing a good job for the most part. But when one knows what the construction was in a city such as this where we had row housing with open third floors; when one tries to find out what provision is being made for firewalls between those third floors on renovations; when it isn’t too clear that this is a requirement; and when we’re faced with the fires we’ve been faced with, it seems to me that we have to take some steps -- not ideal perhaps -- to indicate that we are concerned about the person who is purchasing property, not at an inflated value but at an inflated price in our market today and who has literally no protection.", "Many of them have no alternatives, because there isn’t a sufficient stock of housing they can afford available in an area where they feel, for one reason or another, they must live. It is to be hoped, Mr. Speaker, as time goes on, if we get an enlightened government in this province that is concerned about the scarcity of housing and prepared to service land so that people can get building lots at prices they can afford to pay and can curb the inflationary effect of the policies of this government, this will no longer be such an urgent requirement because people will have choices.", "When we come to the five-year warranty section, it takes some time as a rule to find the hidden defects in a building, particularly if one is not very expert in the building of houses or in any of the trades that go into the building of houses. I am reminded of a time some years ago when my mother who was one of the first women builders in Toronto was completing 18 houses in the north end of the city of Toronto and was having a great deal of trouble with inspectors. Across the street, a gentleman was building a pair of houses. While he had taps in and he had other equipment in his house, he had nothing connecting either sewers or water in his house nor did he insulate the roof.", "This is the kind of thing that, of course, ought not to happen with the usual inspections of a municipality. But in those days there were elements of choice. Today there are not.", "I too am concerned that our building code has not been brought forward other than in a draft form, because I don’t know what provisions there will be in this whole new area of rehabilitation of existing housing. But I would have to assume, at this point in time, that this code will have sufficient enlightenment that these various matters would be covered, and that people would not have to rely on the fact that they’ll take it at any price and in any circumstances, because they have nothing else they can do to provide housing for their families.", "Mr. Speaker, it is true that those of us in this caucus have been opposed to the escalation of bureaucracy, and it may seem somewhat illogical for us to support this. But in a time when this is probably the one investment that a person makes, it is desperately important that there be some protection.", "I was interested the other day in looking at an area in Toronto which used to be a pocket of blight. It was called Trefann Court. I think most of the members have heard about it. There are properties selling there today at $70,000. For the poor? No, of course not. The poor are gone because of our policies, but the people who are there, who are going in, nevertheless need housing, too. And they simply have to have some protection while we await the philosophical direction of a government which, up until now, has not been concerned with curing the disease of a lack of housing, but rather has been concerned with looking at the symptoms of it.", "Mr. Speaker, I support this bill in principle. Thank you." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Fort William." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. H. Jessiman (Fort William)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, it’s a privilege for me to rise and make some comments on this bill. To start out, I think the hon. member for York-Forest Hill has got a damn good bill here. It needs possibly some modifications, very few amendments.", "One amendment I’d like to suggest to him is that a short form of specifications be attached to an offer of purchase so that the purchaser will know about the basic items involved. This would also be evidence at any subsequent hearing before a referee or re- view board.", "It’s a fact that most people buy a basic house but actually expect a custom built house. I agree with the hon. member in his preamble that the suggested short form could be part of the deal. In this way purchasers would be assured that they would receive in good faith exactly what they paid for.", "Now, Mr. Speaker, I’m not going to attempt to go item by item, or clause by clause, through the bill. It’s been very well handled by the hon. member for Lakeshore, in his jolly criticism, and also the hon. member for Peel South. I think his bill is very timely, Mr. Speaker, because in the Thunder Bay Times-News of March 28 there is an item out of city hall that says:", "“The city HVDA president John Budick touched on a proposed nation-wide home warranty setup presently being studied by the federal government.", "“Ottawa planners have been looking into putting a form of warranty on new homes for over a year. Now Mr. Budick says it will be at least another year or a year and a half before such a plan would be avail- able to prospective home buyers at the municipal level.”", "It goes on to say:", "“The city building inspector, Mr. Bert Lambert, was also present at the meeting and he said Urban Affairs Minister Ron Basford has already proposed legislation on warranties or, as Lambert put it, certification.”", "It’s very timely having this bill brought before us today. But I must say, Mr. Speaker, that before we guarantee a house we have to build one -- and we in Thunder Bay certainly don’t have a hell of a choice in houses. I’m going to refer to statistics that have been produced for me over the last year and records of land acquired by Ontario Housing Corp. in Thunder Bay (Fort William and Port Arthur), the location of the land, the size of the land and the year it was bought.", "We bought 6.67 acres in 1967, in 1968 2.90 acres -- this goes on -- 1.83 acres in 1970, 1.85, 1.60 and 3.50 acres in 1971 and in 1972 we hit the jackpot; we bought 158 acres for Ontario’s proposed HOME development programme -- and 37 lots in 1973, with an additional 0.85 acres pending development.", "Over the same period of time, Mr. Speaker, we built 46 units of senior citizen housing in 1969, 48 units in 1970, none in 1971, none in 1972, and 181 units in 1973." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Not a very good track record." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Jessiman", "text": [ "I’m not very happy with it, really. It starts at the local level, I might say to you, sir.", "The same article reported on March 28 that we are planning 600 housing units for Thunder Bay. The corporation presently hopes to build 200 to 273 senior citizen residences. Seven hundred new units in 40 northern Ontario localities also are expected, and we are looking to start up to 600 new housing units in the city over the next 18 months.", "Mr. Speaker, I think we would be lucky if we could build houses the way we are building reports. Here are some from the Advisory Task Force on Housing Policy; Working Papers, volume 1; “Land for Housing and Housing Assistance,” “Government and Housing; Public Participation Programmes,” “Background Report, The Housing Production Process in Ontario.”", "Might I say to you, Mr. Speaker, that about five years ago in the city of Thunder Bay we extended the city water line at a price of $158,000 or $168,000. The Ontario government assisted the city of Thunder Bay to extend this water line to the then municipality of Neebing to the industrial farm, which housed some 100 detainees, a herd of cattle and many acres of potatoes and what not. But since that time, 1,200 acres of this 1,800-acre plot have been declared surplus. I would suggest to you, sir, that we’ve got lots of land to build on; it is owned by the government and it is damn well time we started building houses on it. Thank you, sir." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Windsor West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. J. Bounsall (Windsor West)", "text": [ "I would start out, Mr. Speaker, by assuring the member for Peel South that I too am not a lawyer and will be giving a consumer’s view. Maybe that was why, not being a lawyer, I was so surprised when I received my first constituent case with respect to house building, one which I could hardly believe.", "This constituent phoned me up and said his roof wasn’t tacked down to rest of his house. I thought I wasn’t hearing him right. I went out and, sure enough that was the case. This was a house at 6170 Wales, in Windsor.", "Both the man and his wife were in a situation where both of them were working during the day at places from which they could not phone. They could not phone the building inspector in order to get a hand in seeing that some of the things were rectified.", "I don’t have the time now to detail the many and various rotten occurrences with respect to this house. But let’s just say there was water everywhere. The eavestroughs didn’t slope to the downspouts; they all sloped to the middle. The roof wasn’t tacked down at any point. The wind would blow it up and the wind and rain had soaked the plywood. In fact, the plywood was warping. It was warped as much as 3 in. or 4 in. Ho took me up to the roof of one portion of this tri-level, and you could bounce up and down 4 in. or 5 in. on various parts of the roof -- so on and so forth.", "So there is a very great need in this area, which the bill speaks to and where action drastically needs to be taken.", "The question is how best to rectify it.", "Just in the few minutes left, let me say, speaking in detail to the bill I am a little bit worried about the large bureaucracy which this bill would engender. It would require four inspections per house and a gigantic team of inspectors would be required under this Act.", "I am convinced the cost of these inspectors and the cost of this bureaucracy, should we set up a thing like this, should not be paid from public funds. However, the insurance scheme that’s set up in order to rectify the programme should, in fact, be a sufficient collection and assessment scheme on all builders in the province to pay for the entire bureaucracy.", "In this way we could get the builders who know how to build and are in the field building, to exert influence and pressure on other builders who they see are doing shoddy work because it will come out of their pocket if it is allowed to continue.", "I would suggest this is one way, if we are going to have this bureaucracy or something like it, to pay for it and deal with it.", "In fact, I would suggest a somewhat different system as well to reduce the bureaucracy. You would only deal with complaints, not those nine out of 10 completed houses which the buyers find satisfactory.", "The other point that I had on the bill when I first read it was the preoccupation that the bill seemed to have with the financial structure and the financial capabilities of the builders or the developing company rather than the product -- the house or the apartment or the condominium or the co-operative. In the bill there is the power to go in and seize and search the financial documents and books in the middle of the night. There is undue stress placed on this rather than the product, when it comes to the clause-by-clause reading of the bill.", "And finally, the caveat emptor principle of “let the buyer beware.” In this bill it applies only to new housing and on first sale. The let-the-buyer-beware principle was not going to be applied to all of the older housing without any rectification or assessment on the sales of those homes -- and, in fact, applies after the point in this bill. So a guy doesn’t get licensed because he built a poor house; so he is fined $2,000 if he builds another. His profit is more than that. He keeps on going till they finally jail him -- if they finally jail him.", "Well, the need is great, Mr. Speaker. I don’t think this bill meets the need but it certainly is valuable to have thoughts of this sort put before us so that we can discuss them, and yet again make clear to the public that the need is there and some good way must be found to fill it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "This completes the private members’ hour." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, before I move the adjournment of the House, I would like to say that tomorrow we will be dealing first with Item No. 5, Bill 13. And then we return to the Throne Speech debate. I have also reasonable agreement that we will sit tomorrow evening to accommodate those who wish to participate in the Throne Speech debate prior to the introduction of the budget.", "Hon Mr. Winkler moves the adjournment of the House.", "Motion agreed to.", "The House adjourned at 6 o’clock, p.m." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have here a message from the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor signed by his own hand. Rise, gentlemen." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "By his own hand W. R. Macdonald, the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor, transmits estimates of certain sums required for the services of the province for the year ending March 31, 1975, and recommends them to the legislative assembly, Toronto, March 29, 1974.", "Statements by the ministry." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am pleased this morning to announce that a one-year memorandum of understanding has been negotiated between the government and the Ontario Provincial Police Association. The agreement covers the period from April 1, 1974 to March 31, 1975, and provides improvements in salaries, employee benefits and other terms of employment for approximately 3,700 uniformed staff in this bargaining unit. The maximum salary for a constable under the new agreement will be $13,536 per year.", "It is a particular pleasure to note that the parties in these negotiations have maintained their enviable record of having always reached agreement in direct negotiations since collective bargaining for members of the Ontario Provincial Police was initiated more than 10 years ago." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. F. Laughren (Nickel Belt)", "text": [ "One could say the same for the community college teachers now that the government has done something." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. F. Guindon (Minister of Labour)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, earlier in the week after meeting with the Steelworkers and the employees of Trailwind Products in Weston, I undertook to speak to the management of the company and look into the lay-off of the 41 employees.", "I am pleased to inform the House, Mr. Speaker, that there are openings for all those who were laid off and that Indal has undertaken that these vacancies will be kept open until Wednesday. I should also add that these positions have been offered by the company at no loss in pay or benefits to those employees laid off. In fact, Mr. Speaker, the company is offering a $7-per-week extra travel allowance for those employees who accept jobs in Brampton.", "I must stress, however, that the employees interested must seek those jobs very soon and I would think by next Wednesday that the company will be forced to seek employees elsewhere.", "There are presently 10 jobs still open in Brampton, where five employees have already accepted positions. In the Toronto operations there are six jobs open at the Alumiprime division in Downsview; 10 positions offered and six still vacant in the Marine division in Weston; there are four jobs open in the Indalex division in Weston; and one person has filled the position at the Rebmec division in Weston.", "Mr. Speaker, this amounts to 36 positions offered, with only 10 filled by the 41 persons laid off. The remaining five laid-off employees will also receive jobs if they wish to apply to the company.", "The company has undertaken to hire all 41 of the affected employees if they apply before Wednesday. After that date the employees may still be hired, but the undertaking by the company lapses on that day.", "The company has been extremely co-operative, Mr. Speaker, and has fully explained its reasons for the lay-off. I hope that those employees seeking jobs will avail themselves of these openings." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)", "text": [ "It required a picket line and the ministry’s intervention to make them co-operative. Don’t be so generous to the company." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)", "text": [ "They sure weren’t co-operative when they set those guys down." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Oral questions. The Hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)", "text": [ "I’d like to ask a question of the Premier --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "All right, but look at what it required." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order please. The hon. Leader of the Opposition has the floor." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Oh, I’m sorry to interrupt the member for Scarborough West." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. A. Grossman (Provincial Secretary for Resources Development)", "text": [ "Would the member like to give us a few more minutes?" ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I’d like to ask the Premier if he has been approached by the management of Global Television for any assistance in their present financial difficulties through any ODC programme or any other programme that might be available through the province." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. G. Davis (Premier)", "text": [ "Well, Mr. Speaker, there have been some communications with the government, including the Ministry of Industry and Tourism.", "The difficulty with the situation as far as the government is concerned, of course, is the concept of government assistance for the type of institution, such as Global which is really part of the news system. I remember discussions in this House with respect to the Toronto Telegram, for instance, as to whether government should become involved in financial assistance where the institution or the company is involved in the news field.", "At the same time, Mr. Speaker, we are very interested in seeing that Global remains in business. And while I can’t report anything specific to the House, I do know there have been a number of discussions, some of them reported in the press this morning.", "It is our hope, of course, that Global can find the financing to remain in business, but it is something of a complex problem for government because of the nature of the industry. While we would like to be helpful, and certainly we will be to the extent possible, I certainly don’t want to hold out hope that funding through ODC would perhaps be an appropriate way." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary: Would it be possible for the Premier to indicate at this time the urgency of the situation? Is there any possibility, for example, that the organization will not be able to meet its payroll and therefore be under those types of pressures? And about how much money is needed to keep them operating?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Well, Mr. Speaker, I’m really only going by second-hand information. I sense that the situation is relatively urgent. I can’t tell the hon. member the extent of the financial problem or the lack of financing, although quite obviously it is significant as well." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Shulman (High Park)", "text": [ "They gave me a bum cheque this morning." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "This is now a scandalous emergency. This is the crunch!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for High Park." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Is the Premier aware that Global has issued a number of bum cheques that bounced in the last 24 hours, one of which was to me, to which I object strenuously?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)", "text": [ "Which one?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Ruston (Essex-Kent)", "text": [ "Reply to that." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "They didn’t get their value.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I hadn’t heard of the misfortune that has befallen the member for High Park. I can only assume that of all the members in the House, he perhaps can withstand that kind of misfortune more than the rest of us. I would say further that if they are looking for further financing, knowing his great capacity and perhaps his own resource, the Global directors might approach him for some form of participation in the organization to keep it alive.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "He’s looking for a new career -- there it is." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Considering the size of the government’s deficit, has the Premier considered approaching the member for High Park?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Well, Mr. Speaker, I would approach him and the hon. leader of the New Democratic Party as well. I mean, any contribution they might want to make would be gratefully received." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)", "text": [ "This government always has to get bailed out by the private sector." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I would like to ask the Minister of Transportation and Communications if he is now prepared to make a statement on the level of the subsidies that the government is prepared to pay to the Toronto Transit Commission to assist them in their deficits for this year?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. R. Rhodes (Minister of Transportation and Communications)", "text": [ "No, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary: Can the minister indicate why, when he said that information would be available this week, it has been postponed again?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, my comment to the press at that time was that hopefully we might have something to say this week. That is not possible. I think the hon. member knows, as it has been in the press, that there is to be a meeting of representatives of Metro and the Premier. I am sure that no statement prior to that meeting would be proper." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. M. Deacon (York Centre)", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Has the minister considered making assistance to these municipalities for their public transit purposes in such a form that it actually doesn’t penalize the improvement in business that has been enjoyed by the Toronto Transit Commission; in other words getting away from subsidizing losses to giving an incentive to get more traffic?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, that incentive is already there in the form of a subsidy per ticket in the existing formula. I am assuming that it is a subsidy there." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "Oh no; it is a subsidy on losses." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "No, Mr. Speaker; there is a subsidy that is paid to the TTC, based upon the number of tickets that are sold.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "They should print that on the ticket." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "With a picture of Allan Grossman for senior citizens.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Have we decided whose picture is to go on the blooming ticket?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "It isn’t going to be mine." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "It couldn’t be the minister’s." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Why?" ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Because then nobody would buy them.", "I want to ask the Minister of Industry and Tourism if he attended at any time in his capacity as a member of the administration, a meeting where the council of the township of Kingston came to Toronto in order to see why certain aspects of their business had been delayed by government decision." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. C. Bennett (Minister of Industry and Tourism)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I did not attend any meeting with the reeve of the township of Kingston or any member of the township of Kingston while a minister of the government. I had the opportunity of meeting with the reeve when I was then parliamentary assistant to Hon. Charles MacNaughton. We were discussing some of the problems relating to zoning and so on in that township, but not relating to the subjects that are currently in the press." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary: Can the minister give his assurance to the House that his personal relationship with at least one citizen in the area, who is very much concerned with the policies of the reeve and council of Kingston township, in no way interfered with his judgement, nor let’s say allowed him to recommend to his cabinet colleagues, that certain actions be taken with regard to that council?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "First of all, Mr. Speaker, any decision I shall make as a minister of this government would be in the best interest of the taxpayers of the Province of Ontario, regardless of what overriding influence there might be. This private citizen in the township of Kingston, whom I happen to be related to and pleased to be so, is one who has an interest in the contracting rights of that municipality relating to services to be extended to those taxpayers." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The minister doesn’t have to be pleased," ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have not participated in discussions relating to any of the problems that relate to Kingston township in the current issue." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The minister knows it and I know it, only they don’t know it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "At a meeting of cabinet which I attended at the time the item was brought forward, I openly and clearly indicated to the members present at that time that the individual who was leading the attack or approach on the township of Kingston council was related to me and was my brother. I see no reason to go any further than to say that I withdrew from any discussions that would take place relating to that item." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "It is not safe to have relations in politics.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I would like to ask the same minister if he can explain further to the House the situation that led him to instruct his advertising agency, that is his ministerial advertising agency, to change any references in our travel advertisements to be used in the United States to the ready availability of gasoline here? Was that on instruction of the external affairs people in Ottawa? How did his own advertising agency make the serious error in judgement to include that matter?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Of course, Mr. Speaker, it’s entirely up to the leader of the Liberal Party as to whether it is an error in judgement. We thought it was an announcement advising the people of this country and the United States of the availability of gas and the type of holiday they could have here in the Province of Ontario.", "As far as we are concerned, Mr. Speaker, when government at the federal level suggests to the province it might reconsider its position because of some political overtones the ad might have for our friends in the United States, we accept that as good judgement and good advice. We decided, after talking to some of the other provinces in Canada, that it would be as well for us to recognize the request of the federal government and not to cause it any difficulties in the United States. It already has enough in Ottawa." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A supplementary: Was the advertising agency informed by Ottawa or by the ministry here in Ontario that the change should be made? Was there no consultation before all the television trailers and the ads had been established? What was the reason for the delay in that matter?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "I am not sure, Mr. Speaker, whether or not the Liberal leader is trying to be facetious. As far as any communications go between the government of Canada and the government of this province, I do not think the advertising agency representing the federal Liberal Party in Ottawa really contacts the advertising agency related to the Ministry of Industry and Tourism for the Province of Ontario. They likely work at the same commission rate and likely get their contracts in the same manner, both federally and provincially." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "That’s been traditional. They operate the same way. No information in that." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "As far as the advertising is concerned, Mr. Speaker, withdrawing the portion related to the availability of petroleum in the Province of Ontario did not cause any real difficulty in reworking our ads. It was put in last year and retained in the ad this year and there was very little difficulty in removing it. It was a decision made within the ministry and not by any outside organization." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a question of the Minister of Community and Social Services. In light of the report to Metropolitan Toronto’s social planning council describing the consequences of rent increases as possibly catastrophic for those in receipt of social allowances from the government, will he as minister make available the several millions of dollars required to provide a form of rent subsidy for everyone in this province in receipt of a social allowance to compensate for the extraordinary rise in shelter costs over the last year, both extraordinary and unexpected in some ways?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. R. Brunelle (Minister of Community and Social Services)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, certainly in our ministry we recognize the grave problem of the rising cost of rent and I think all members agree that housing is probably one of the most important components of social assistance. As hon. members know, on Jan. 1 this year, we did increase our food and our rental assistance; nevertheless, costs have been rising continually since. We are at present, with the Ministry of Housing, looking into this very aspect. We have amended our regulations, as the hon. members know, so that under existing regulations for supplementary and special assistance, we pay 80 per cent for recipients of the Family Benefits Act and elderly people to municipalities which, at their discretion, wish to give increased assistance for rents.", "Also I have asked my people, and we should have this information soon, to let me know how many recipients are presently paying more than their increased allowances. Again, Mr. Speaker, we have responded in the past and we will respond in future to this very pressing problem of increasing costs." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A supplementary --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. W. Martel (Sudbury East)", "text": [ "What are they jabbering about?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Even with the Jan. 1 increase, the minister will know that fully 84 per cent of the recipients surveyed were paying in excess of 25 per cent of income on rent and a quarter of them surveyed were paying more than 50 per cent of their social allowances on rent, which destroys the food component of the social allowances entirely. Has he, therefore, made a survey of the kinds of percentages being paid? Is the government prepared to assume, for those on social allowances, the full cost of rental payments by supplements at this time when there is absolutely no alternative accommodation anywhere else?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle", "text": [ "As I indicated, Mr. Speaker, I am getting this information. At the same time, the hon. member will appreciate this is a complex factor. Often, when we raise our maximum shelter allowance, what happens is that the landlords raise their rents." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Oh I see." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle", "text": [ "So it is a very difficult area." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "That’s free enterprise." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle", "text": [ "Now rent control is something that has been advocated. I don’t know the member’s views on that, but it is a very difficult area." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "We have been advocating it for years." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "Our views on it are well known." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle", "text": [ "But again, Mr. Speaker, I’d like to reiterate what I said before: We have responded in the past and: we will respond to this increasing cost." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Why penalize this group so severely?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Supplementary question, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "Supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Yes, supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "Would the minister not agree that in view of the fact so much of the increase is taken advantage of by landlords, this shows the need for a rental review board?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Oh!", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "Before which the province can bring those who, without justification, do increase the rents and --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "If it’s anything like the prices review board in Ottawa scrap it!", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "-- and alleviate by increased grants those situations where the recipients are being deprived of any opportunity to pay for increased costs other than just shelter?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "Is this Liberal policy this morning?", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, there may be merit in the hon. member’s suggestion, but there are other provinces that have review boards and I’m not too sure whether their results have been that satisfactory." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "Well maybe this province can do better!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Ottawa Centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "I just want to ask the minister, Mr. Speaker, why is it that the ministry is only now investigating the degree to which recipients pay more than the shelter allowances in rent, when figures have been available to the ministry as long as three years -- and I’m sure five and ten years, but certainly in the last three or four years -- from Ottawa and other municipalities, that show equally that 70, 80 or 90 per cent of recipients pay well in excess of the shelter allowances for their rent? Why didn’t the government act then when those figures were available?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, again, we have responded. We did increase our allowances on Jan. 1." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The government is falling further and further behind!" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle", "text": [ "We did amend our regulations and we are prepared to do more." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "They let the landlord take the increase." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Question, Mr. Speaker, of the Minister of Labour: Is he aware of the factors surrounding the dispute in Hamilton between the United Rubber Workers and the Firestone company?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "No, Mr. Speaker. At this time it really hasn’t come up to my level. Perhaps some of my officials are. I could find out." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "At what point is a strike, that has gone on for a month now, at what point are strikes and the issues in strikes reported to the minister? Is there no apparatus for a report to the minister after a week or two weeks or three weeks of a prolonged dispute?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "It all depends, Mr. Speaker. There are so many different cases. It all depends on the timing. It depends on the parties and it depends on their reading of the whole thing. So I cannot give the member a definite answer. Nobody can." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well, there aren’t that many strikes in the province at any given moment. I mean, does the ministry not report to the minister on a strike that’s gone on for a month over a matter of a cost of living index?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "They report to me, and as a matter of fact not only do they report I ask for a report. The member claims there are not so many strikes, well we have perhaps seven or eight going on at the present time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Seven or eight? Well, you know Mr. Speaker, the minister can manage that. Seven or eight strikes at one time are not beyond human capacity. But can I ask the minister, would he consider --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "I’ve got three in my riding alone." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Would the minister consider amending the Employment Standards Act in Ontario to provide the requirement that every negotiated contract have a clause which provides for an escalated cost of living increase as a part of that contract?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, we always accept suggestions. We are always glad to look at it. But I make no commitment right now." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Question, Mr. Speaker, of the Provincial Secretary for Social Development, if I could. When are the regulations governing the ceilings and the weighting factors for education in the Metropolitan Toronto area to be issued by the Ministry of Education?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. M. Birch (Provincial Secretary for Social Development)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Education (Mr. Wells) is out of the city at the present moment. I would imagine there will be some information when he returns." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "By way of supplementary, has it been brought to the attention of the provincial secretary’s policy development committee that a large number of jobs associated with the Metro Toronto boards -- several hundred, in the caretaker and support staff area -- may be lost unless the regulations related to the ceilings appear immediately? Why the delay? Has she any idea of the reason for the delay? Is she about to increase the ceilings significantly? Is that the reason?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mrs. Birch", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the question is one that is under consideration in the policy field at the moment." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well, since my question was so convoluted, perhaps I can ask the provincial secretary which part of it is under consideration -- the loss of jobs or the increase in the ceilings?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mrs. Birch", "text": [ "The whole question of the impact of inflation on the ceilings." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Could I ask the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations whether he has discussed with the Minister of Agriculture and Food (Mr. Stewart) the possibility of the four- or five-cent increase in milk prices which has been prophesied being referred entirely to the producer, being embraced entirely by the farmer, and this time eliminating many of the middle men and those who retail milk?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. T. Clement (Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations)", "text": [ "No, Mr. Speaker, I have not discussed that particular matter with my colleague." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Has he yet noticed the most recent increase in profits reported by the Becker company?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Yes, I have, Mr. Speaker; and I think the House will be pleased to learn that some time next week I will be filing a study prepared by my ministry which I referred to in a discussion between the leader of the New Democratic Party and myself about two weeks ago. Not only does it deal with that particular industry but with several other retail stores -- major chains, and I’m thinking of Maple Leaf Mills, which is included there too. I think the member will find it of great interest. I’ll have that available some time next week for the hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I want to ask one last question of the same minister and that’s all. May I ask him, has he considered calling in the various insurance companies -- the automobile insurance companies in particular -- to take a look at their premium rates as a way of effecting reductions which would eliminate the inflationary costs for all of those who drive; to bring the rates in Ontario, let us say, in line with the rates of a province like Manitoba?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)", "text": [ "They’ve just raised their rates at least 20 per cent." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have just two comments there. The office of the superintendent is always concerned with rates and discusses rate structures and requested increases with the industry each and every year.", "With reference to the other province mentioned, I had the opportunity of being in British Columbia some three weeks ago and the government system there provides for $14 per hour for labour bestowed on an automobile in repairing it. The programme started, I believe, three or four weeks ago today. When I read an article in the paper two or three days later the complaints of the public out there were that the repair industry would not accept $14 per hour, but in fact added to that somewhere in the neighbourhood of $1.50 to $3 per hour in addition to the provincial plan.", "I bring that to the attention of the House, not as a criticism of that particular plan, but to show some of the realities of the cost increases that in fact the consumers are facing. I can only assure the House that the superintendent’s office will continue to be vigilant insofar as rate increases requested by the industry are concerned." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Has the minister done any rate comparisons of the three provinces?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Yes, the superintendent has." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well, we will provide them to the minister next week." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Add in the $9 a year driving-licence charges to that, too." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Welland South." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. Haggerty (Welland South)", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations. Has the minister taken any steps to ensure that the $6.5 million in Eaton’s employees’ pension fund that was invested in Rapid Data Corp. is protected now that the company has gone into receivership?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "I’m sorry, I didn’t hear the entire question, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "Has the minister taken any steps to ensure that the $6.5 million in Eaton’s employees’ pension fund that was invested in Rapid Data Corp. is protected now that the company has gone into receivership?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I will be meeting with the director and two members of the pension commission at 11 o’clock this morning." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for High Park." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "I have a question of the Solicitor General, Mr. Speaker. Has his department been asked by the American police to co-operate in the investigation of the murder of one Harvey Leach? In the course of its investigation, has it looked into the activity of the Toronto lawyer who financed Mr. Leach through a Queen St. investment corporation? What is he doing about that particular problem of laundering money which is being used in Detroit, through Toronto?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. G. A. Kerr (Solicitor General)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I haven’t any direct information at this time involving one Mr. Leach. It is quite possible, of course, that the Ontario Provincial Police have some information, as well as the Police Commission, the Metropolitan Toronto Police, and our police information agency. I personally haven’t any information at this time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Will the minister inquire and inform me?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "What does the member particularly want to know?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "I am interested in what the Solicitor General is doing about the laundering in this city of Mafia money, which is then being sent back to the United States for criminal activities." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "I’ll inquire if that is a problem." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Huron." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. J. Riddell (Huron)", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question of the Minister of Natural Resources.", "Considering there has been an ongoing dispute over the legal ownership of land on the river flats in Bayfield, which is in Huron county, and considering that the town of Bayfield has served an injunction on the alleged owners for the dredging and removal of sand on the land in question, why did his ministry officials do a complete about-face within a matter of one week and allow the alleged owners of the land to cut a channel into the river, which is contrary to sections 3 and 4 of the Beach Protection Act?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. L. Bernier (Minister of Natural Resources)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I will have a complete report prepared on this particular matter and report to the member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "Lakeshore." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I’m sorry -- Lakeshore." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "We will have to get acquainted one of these days, Mr. Speaker.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "I want to ask a question of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations and other forms of alienation.", "Is the hon. minister aware that certain lawyers in particular, but others as well, are ripping off his condominium legislation in the way of pure speculation by buying up units which they have no intention of moving into and selling them off at gross profits?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Lawyers are doing that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Just lawyers?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of any such practice pertaining to any particular group.", "Insofar as the speculation in condominiums is concerned, I suppose it is like any other asset and people will continue to speculate in it in the hope of making fast profits. But I am not aware of any practice that is continuing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "Why doesn’t the minister plug it in his new legislation?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "No, not any assets, just housing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Has the minister heard that, as a matter of budget, his government intends to introduce a 75 per cent capital gains tax on such forms of speculation?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Have I heard that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "Yes, has he heard that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "No." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "Oh." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Rainy River." ] } ]