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[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "May I ask the Minister of Health a question, Mr. Speaker? Does the Minister of Health recall that it was in August, 1973, when the original ceilings in the education area were set at 7.9 per cent, and it was Aug. 29, 1973, when the ceilings in the area of hospitals were set at 7.9 per cent, and why have we allowed an increase in the ceilings in educational expenditures but not in hospitals?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. F. S. Miller (Minister of Health)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, it’s very tempting to assume that the two fields are parallel. I do not feel they are. I’m quite aware of the inflationary pressures in the hospital field and have been giving a great deal of consideration to them lately. We have certain basic problems to resolve right now and those, of course, deal with the hospital workers who are threatening to strike in Toronto. These negotiations are being carried on, and I think quite well at this point in time. I just feel that no such sweeping statements will apply to the health field at this point in time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Is the minister ready to make any selective statements in the health field with some seven days to go to a strike deadline? Is he ready to indicate that he has given to Mr. Dickie, the chief officer of the Ministry of Labour, the authority to indicate to the unions at some point that he will raise the ceilings on their wages, as apparently he is doing behind the scenes now with the hospitals themselves?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I don’t give directions to Mr. Dickie directly; he doesn’t work for my ministry. I have great faith in his ability and knowledge to deal with problems in the labour field. I’m very interested in the progress he is making. I’m sure the steps he takes and the offers he makes would be met by my ministry." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Would the Minister of Health not agree that it is just not enough to say of the conciliator made available from the Ministry of Labour that he doesn’t direct him? Surely there has got to be a policy co-ordination that in the interest of the welfare not only of the hospital workers but of the people of this province has got to result in an announcement without delay of government policy which will avert what could be a very acrimonious, serious and illegal strike that can be averted only by a statement of government intention?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "First of all, Mr. Speaker, I disagree with the last statement made by the Leader of the Opposition. I don’t think it can only be averted by a public statement by this minister. I believe in the process that is under way right now and that is the free collective bargaining process, which is carrying on.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "It can’t be -- it is not free." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "I have every confidence --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The minister has wage controls in the hospital sector; that’s not free collective bargaining." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "I have every confidence that the steps that are necessary have been taken." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Does the hon. member for Scarborough West have further questions?" ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I have a question of the Minister of the Environment. Has he anything to report yet on the CP Rail application in Hope township for the land disposal site, on the various land disposal applications in Vaughan township, and on the inquiry officer hearing into the Arnprior dam?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman (Minister of the Environment)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on the Hope site we are still obtaining data and we are still doing work on that." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "No hope." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Still waiting." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "Regarding the other site the member was talking about --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Vaughan township." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "Which site in Vaughan was the member talking about?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Maple, the 900-acre site." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "The 900 acres? There has been an application, but no date has been set for a hearing as yet. On the inquiry officer’s report, I have not made my report on it yet but hope to do so very shortly." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "So the minister has nothing to report on any of them yet?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "No." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A question of the Minister of Health, Mr. Speaker: Can the Minister of Health tell me how he has responded to the appeal placed in local papers from the physicians and surgeons in Renfrew as to the deteriorating health conditions in the county because of the various unilateral cutbacks on chronic care and active-care facilities in the local hospitals?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I think that steps were taken about two weeks ago in the city of Renfrew that, insofar as I know, satisfied the local needs for those facilities.", "There was talk about closing down a rehabilitation facility in that area. However, in our opinion, or mine at least, that would have been premature because we didn’t have alternative facilities available in that area. I believe a statement was made that we will build a 75-bed nursing home in the Renfrew area, and until such time as that 75-bed home is in fact available, we do not intend to close any of the chronic or rehabilitation beds." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The minister doesn’t. Can I ask him then about Barry’s Bay? Has he done anything about Barry’s Bay and the chronic and acute treatment problems that exist in that community?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Are we on a geographic jaunt?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "What about Smiths Falls?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Smiths Falls; that is closer to the member’s riding, isn’t it? As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, I am pleased that the member is choosing towns that I have visited." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "My riding? He is really on the ball." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "I visited Barry’s Bay, along with my friend the Minister of Community and Social Services (Mr. Brunelle), back in early December. We realized that this land of community, which is typical of very many small communities in Ontario, cannot perhaps support either a home for the aged or a nursing home per se. I can only assure the members that we are giving very active thought to some form of care for senior citizens, and the elderly and the chronic patients in towns like Barry’s Bay throughout the province." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well, then, by way of supplementary, since this has also been brought to the minister’s attention from Pembroke, is he singling out Renfrew county especially as an area of perverse discrimination in health policy where chronic and convalescent and nursing home care are concerned, or is he prepared to free the funds to deal with the special requirements in that part of the province where he has a considerable component of aged population?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "It depends where the Conservatives are." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Well, we certainly recognize that Renfrew county had very real problems, and perhaps more aggravated problems and acute problems than most areas of the province --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Right." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "-- and it was on that assumption that we approved the 75-bed nursing home in Renfrew. I might also say we allowed the hospital in Pembroke to use, I think 27 beds, that were previously closed for active treatment, to be reopened for extended care patients in that area. I think those two steps alone have provided well over 100 beds in an area that badly needed them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations has the answer to a question asked previously." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. J. T. Clement (Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on March 29 the member for Welland South (Mr. Haggerty) raised a question in regard to a $6.5 million investment the T. Eaton retirement annuity plan had in Rapid Data and asked, as I understand it, if those in receipt of the pension or contributing to the pension were protected.", "Under the Pension Benefits Act and regulations, the pension fund may hold, in eligible investments, up to seven per cent of the total asset at book value in the fund. The Eaton annuity plan meets this requirement and the majority of the fund’s total assets are invested in fully secured bonds, debentures, mortgages, and so on, and a lesser portion in blue chip common stocks. In this particular case the plan is fully funded -- that is, the assets from the plan, even after deducting the anticipated loss from the Rapid Data investment being taken into consideration, are greater than the total liabilities of the plan.", "I further understand that each year an independent actuary and chartered accountants verify the soundness of the plan. Therefore I am advising the member and the House, Mr. Speaker, that none of the employees who already have money in the plan or those who are presently contributing will in any way have their deposits or their pension contributions inhibited in any way because of the anticipated loss from Rapid Data." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "With respect to the three or four members of the Liberal Party in the second row, all of whom have had a question, I do believe the hon. member for Downsview was on his feet first." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question of the Minister of Housing. Could the minister advise if he is planning to increase the Ontario Housing security force, as suggested by the Metropolitan Toronto police, to prevent a recurrence of the violence that resulted in several injuries over the weekend in Cather Cres., Lawrence Heights, in the riding of Downsview?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have been assured that the security force in that community will be strengthened. I have no details on specific numbers by which it will be strengthened. I’ve asked for a report on that. I am distressed by the continued stigmatization of Ontario Housing Corp. communities of all kinds, and I am very upset by the fact that Ontario Housing Corp. seems to be singled out for this type of public comment when, in fact, it is not common in many other areas of high density. On the other hand, we are taking the necessary steps to try to protect the tenants." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "By way of supplementary, could the minister adviser us if he has investigated the allegation that this particular trouble was caused by three or four families, or centres on three or four families, who occupy one house on Cather Cres. and who apparently block other tenants’ access in vehicle parking by the illegal and improper parking of a school bus?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Speaker, those allegations have been publicized and I have asked the officials of OHC to look into them to determine whether or not they were aware of them, and if they were, what, in fact, the remedies are." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "Supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Supplementary, yes. The hon. member for York Centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "What steps is the minister taking to give more authority to, say, a tenants’ council to deal with the root causes of problems such as those occurring in that area?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, happily I attended a tenants’ conference in Windsor on Saturday at which this very point was discussed. The tenants are of mixed views themselves as to whether or not they wish to police this type of disruption in their own communities or whether they wish to join in a partnership with OHC in doing it. We are waiting for recommendations arising from that conference in Windsor. I expect they will be constructive and I am looking forward to receiving them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for High Park." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. M. Shulman (High Park)", "text": [ "A question of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations, Mr. Speaker: Has the minister any explanation for the most recent caper by the Liquor Licence Board in which it has banned Laurel and Hardy silent movies in licensed premises?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Which role is the member going to play, Laurel or Hardy?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "How do you “smash” that one?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am in a quandary here. I have the responsibility for the administration of the Theatres Act, and I wondered perhaps if the hon. member this month might turn his attention on Mr. Silverthorn out there. I will, in fact, inquire into it. Perhaps the member might advise me where this ban occurred and whether it was this year or in the past?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "This is getting to be a pretty good comic act." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "A supplementary --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please. I think the question really was not urgent nor of public importance. Therefore there shall be no supplementaries.", "The hon. member for Waterloo North." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A question of the Minister of Revenue regarding the collection of sales tax at the Ontario Mennonite relief auction sale: Would the minister reconsider his position as stated in a letter of April 18 that the continuation of exemption for this relief auction sale will not be continued in light of the fact that this sale has contributed over $400,000 to worldwide relief in the past seven years? Would the minister reconsider his decision and exempt this sale once again this year from the retail sales tax?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman (Windsor-Walkerville)", "text": [ "It’s very worthwhile." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the Act presently provides for exemptions of this nature on a quarterly basis up to, I believe, the sum of $7,500 on any such sale. In this instance the charitable organization has had sales which have grown, I understand from information provided by the member, to something in the order of $100,000. It therefore gets well beyond the area in which the minister has discretion, as the Act presently stands, to grant such exemption.", "What I think may have occurred in the past if, in fact, exemptions were granted was that it was an ad hoc arrangement, perhaps even turning the other eye so to speak, or putting the telescope to the blind eye. Now that it has come to my ministry’s attention regrettably it may be that, as the Act presently stands, it will be necessary to enforce that regulation.", "I would say that to do that in this instance brings into question all the charitable functions, not just the Mennonite function to which the member makes reference and the projects of which are highly commendable, but all the other charitable functions which take place in this province from time to time. If we are to do that, it would have to be on a much broader basis than just the one exemption to which the member makes reference because of its enormity and its size, among other things." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Does the minister not feel that it is inconceivable and certainly unwarranted that the Province of Ontario should be the only agency which can possibly benefit from this sale, skimming off $7,000 or $8,000 in tax before it goes to overseas general relief when there are over 2,000 volunteers working without pay? All foodstuffs and material are donated and not one cent of cost is taken off the sale price of these articles to defray any expenses whatsoever. Surely he would not put the province in the position of being the only one to benefit from this sale, other than the people in the developing countries of the world?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "How mean can one get? Has the minister no heart?" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "How about the Olympic lottery?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Does the hon. minister wish to comment or answer?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "Will he answer that? Mr. Speaker, does the minister care to answer?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "I have already answered the question, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The member for Scarborough Centre." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. F. Drea (Scarborough Centre)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a question of the Minister of Health: Is it correct that the new Health Disciplines Act has altered the rights of the members of the Christian Science Church in respect to their use of prayer to heal the ill?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member should realize that there is a bill on the order paper and he cannot anticipate in any way the provisions of that bill nor the debate on that bill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "But it’s there." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "A ruling was made to this effect just a few days ago.", "The member for Port Arthur." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur)", "text": [ "A question of the Provincial Secretary for Resources Development: Did the Resources Development secretariat have any participation in and can he explain the decision which has caused the Ministry of Natural Resources to reinstitute its policy of burning wilderness cabins in northwestern Ontario without prior warning to the owners of these cabins? Specifically, is he aware of the ministry’s justification? Has his colleague made him aware of the justification that the ministry used for going into the business of arson and burning down a legitimate mining claim cabin at Circle Lake on Wednesday, March 13, and for threatening to do the same to a cabin on Fallingsnow Lake?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, that was a long question and pretty detailed. I can tell the hon. member, however, that during the time I have been provincial secretary of this field, the question has not been referred to the cabinet committee on resources development. It may have been referred prior to my term of office. I will look at the records and find out if that is the case.", "However, I would suggest the hon. member probably would get a quicker reply by asking the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Bernier), who will be back in the Legislature on Thursday, than if he waited for me to go into the records.", "Quite frankly, however, I must tell the hon. member I couldn’t follow his question. It was a pretty long one. I’ll read it in Hansard." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "That was a long answer." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "It’s a matter of great public importance." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications has the answer to a question asked previously, and then the hon. member for Rainy River." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "The minister has already made a statement." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Some time back, the hon. member for Nickel Belt (Mr. Laughren) asked me to look into the situation in the community of Shining Tree, where there are communications difficulties, and obviously the member and I have had communication difficulties as well. I apologize for the delay, part of which is his responsibility." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "That is rather provocative." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Since the question was asked, I have had an opportunity to discuss the subject with the staff of the ministry, and I find that not only are they aware of the difficulties experienced in the community but they have had telecommunications engineers visit the community to determine what can and should be done.", "For the information of the other members of the House, this is a community of approximately 100 people on Highway 560 between Englehart and Gogama." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Don’t call it a highway. It’s a disgrace." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "The community has been without telephone service. Both Northern Telephone and Ontario Northland are taking steps to ensure that this community’s isolation is ended.", "There are several small communities such as Shining Tree in similar predicaments. The ministry has been assessing their needs and making recommendations to the carriers involved to complete the telecommunications service.", "I would point out, however, that the provision of service is costly for the companies, with little hope of major offsetting revenues. For example, in that community of 100, I understand it will cost at least $360,000 to link Shining Tree to the Ontario Northland long-distance network -- and that is not allowing for inflation.", "Following the question by the hon. member and discussions with my staff, I have instructed that both the Ontario Northland Transportation Commission and the provincial regulatory body, the Ontario Telephone Service Commission, should examine the situation of Shining Tree to determine whether service can be completed this year, and I will be glad to let the member know the results of that examination." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The member for Rainy River." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Does the minister call that a highway?" ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. T. P. Reid (Rainy River)", "text": [ "I have a question of the Minister of Community and Social Services, Mr. Speaker, with regard to violence in the sport of hockey.", "Is the minister aware that a young man was convicted today in a matter resulting from hostilities in a hockey game and that there has been a lot of violence connected with the Junior B championship? Is the minister, through his athletic commission or as a result of his responsibilities, investigating this matter? And does he have any programme to try to reduce the kind of violence that does go on in the game of hockey in the Province of Ontario?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. R. Brunelle (Minister of Community and Social Services)", "text": [ "No, Mr. Speaker, I read in the daily press the report of the case referred to. The whole question of violence in hockey is one that certainly merits looking into, and I’d be glad to report on that at some later time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "A supplementary: As a means of restraining the kind of violence we’ve been seeing, will the minister consider requiring amateur hockey to adopt international rules, which would cut down on the physical contact in the sport?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Has the hon. member read about the world hockey tournament?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle", "text": [ "I would be glad to look into that suggestion, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Sudbury." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. M. C. Germa (Sudbury)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a question of the Minister of Colleges and Universities: I would ask the minister if he is prepared to issue a directive to Cambrian College in Sudbury so that they will discontinue using the services of Dent Psychometrical Services of Canton, Ohio, in order to determine the admissibility of nursing students to that college?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. A. C. Auld (Minister of Colleges and Universities)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of that specific instance. I know that in a number of our post-secondary educational institutions --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Practically all of them." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Auld", "text": [ "-- US-established tests have been used, mainly because they are used in a relatively small number of institutions and the cost of establishing ones here has been just too high. In fact, I know there has been some discussion with the Canadian federal university association in this connection. I will look into the test the member mentions and give a reply when I know a little more about it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Germa", "text": [ "A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Is the minister not aware that the community college at North Bay and the community college in Sault Ste. Marie are conducting their own admission tests for the nursing courses?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Auld", "text": [ "I am aware of that, Mr. Speaker, and I understand that as part of the general policy different institutions use a different variety of tests and recommendations and so on. I will look into the case the member mentions." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Ottawa East." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Housing and it deals with the Marlborough and Huntley township land scheme and the 1-ft strips which have been ruled illegal by the Supreme Court of Ontario. What has he done to protect the interests of the people who bought properties from this company? Secondly, has he investigated the scheme in Huntley where 1-ft strips were transferred to the municipal officials without the municipal officials being aware of this? Has he transferred this matter to the Attorney General to investigate this situation for possible offences under the Criminal Code?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, with regard to Marlborough, which is now the township of Rideau -- I assume my friend is aware of the municipal reorganizations which have taken place there?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Let the minister just answer the question; I know that.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. A. Stewart (Minister of Agriculture and Food)", "text": [ "Nobody would ever know --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "The entire matter has been brought before the courts once again by the regional municipality and while it is before the courts my ministry and, I assume, other ministries of the government will not take any action. As far as Huntley is concerned, the only thing there is that there have been a number of allegations and a number of claims. As far as my ministry is concerned, it has not been brought officially to our attention." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, if I might ask a supplementary: Has the hon. minister investigated to see if this 1-ft strip scheme transferred to the municipality has been done in other areas of the province? Is his reluctance to look into and investigate this situation due to the fact that his Conservative friends are involved in the scheme and he doesn’t want to get them involved?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "That is another question.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the situation in Marlborough, of course, where everybody is Conservative, involved only Conservatives. As the hon. member knows I was one of those who came down hard and asked my predecessor to issue a ministerial order. The then parliamentary assistant recommended to the Treasurer (Mr. White) that this be done and it was done. It was done at my request regardless of the policies of the people who were concerned." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "What about Huntley?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Wentworth." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Labour. With the recognition that the rising cost of living affects everyone and that corporate profits are thoroughly healthy at this point, is the Minister of Labour considering a revision of the pensions under the Workmen’s Compensation Act to be effective during this session of Parliament in order to avoid any further depreciation of the ability to purchase of those people presently in receipt?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. F. Guindon (Minister of Labour)", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Speaker. I think I already indicated to the members of the House at one point or another last spring, I believe, or last session --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Last fall." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "Last fall, right -- that I would look into the benefits of the Workmen’s Compensation Board. I haven’t been sitting idly by. I have looked at them and I am just about ready to make recommendation to government; once they become government policy I will be glad to announce them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Among the recommendations the minister is making, will there be a recommendation for an escalator clause with regard to inflation for those pensions?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "There are a number of recommendations and I am not prepared at this time to tell the House what they are going to be. I hope to make a statement before too many weeks, let’s say." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West with a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "In his review of pension levels could the minister make a special provision available to the hundreds of miners at Elliot Lake who are now seeking silicotic pensions, 400 of whom from Denison and Rio Algom mines met last night to set out their health and pension concerns and who are still on strike against Denison because of the safety conditions and the pensions and all matters related to that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "I think in the past the Workmen’s Compensation Board has never excluded people. They have considered as many injured workmen as possible. Although I cannot make a definite promise here today, I am sure they will look at it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations has the answer to a question asked previously, and then the hon. member for Windsor-Walkerville." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I refer to a daily question asked of me yesterday from my friend from High Park. The question was: “Can the minister comment on the unique packaging and cartage methods used by his department which resulted in 301 out of 319 cases that arrived at Freedland St. last Thursday being smashed?”", "Last Thursday the Liquor Control Board did, in fact, receive a number of cases of alcoholic beverages which were received in a damaged condition. The member’s information is not totally accurate. The board did receive this unsolicited shipment containing 299 cases, of which approximately 100 were damaged in transit. The unsolicited shipment, as I understand it, is a private order of which the Liquor Control Board of Ontario had no advance notice and the board is not responsible or liable for any of the damage. Those cases which were damaged have stickers on them which were placed there by the airline or air freight handlers indicating damage in transit." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)", "text": [ "How much of it did the member for High Park order?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "The board has not handled the merchandise but is awaiting the attendance of a representative of the private importer. That’s the message for the day." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "And let the member bring his own straw." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "That one was all wet.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Provincial Secretary for Resources Development. Is the secretary, either on his own or in co-operation with the federal government, developing a policy of flood insurance for the affected landholders?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "It’s to the Provincial Secretary for Resources Development. The member is talking policy. The minister doesn’t know what the member is talking about." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, I thought it was directed to another minister." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Policy, what’s that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "If I may repeat, Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Provincial Secretary for Resources Development. Is the provincial secretary developing, either on his own -- that is, through his own ministry -- or in co-operation with the federal government, a scheme of flood insurance that would protect affected landholders?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, at this time I am not in a position to advise the House on any matter of that nature. If, as and when we come to a decision to take this matter up, we will, of course, advise the House when policy has been formed." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. G. A. Kerr (Solicitor General)", "text": [ "EMO is the member’s best insurance." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "May we expect an answer from the provincial secretary before the House adjourns for its summer recess?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, if a decision is made by that time.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Sandwich-Riverside.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. F. A. Burr (Sandwich-Riverside)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Energy. What has been the minister’s reaction, or the reaction of his advisers, to the claim in the March issue of the American Chemical Society’s publication, Chem Tech, to the effect that a supply of natural gas can be assured forever through mass production of various water and land plants, such as algae and sorghum, and their conversion into methane?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Give the minister a glass of water." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, my reaction, not having read the article, is nil. The reaction of my advisers has not been communicated to me, if they have read the article. The closest I have come to this particular subject, if I may put it that way, and that may be a little indelicate, was a very excellent paper delivered by, I think, a civil servant or one on the staff of the University of Guelph under my colleague, the Minister of Agriculture and Food, on this whole subject of the use of methane gas at a great conference sponsored by the Progressive Conservative women of this province not long ago.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "At that particular conference a great number of things were brought forward and, as I recall, the conclusion of that particular subject was that the day of methane gas has not yet arrived.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Are the Conservative women bothered with gas?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The time for oral questions has expired.", "I’m sure the hon. members will be interested to learn that our new seating plans are now available and will be distributed shortly.", "Petitions.", "Presenting reports.", "Motions.", "Introduction of bills." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "That’s the greatest contribution the. minister has made in the last year." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "And it’s more than the member will ever make." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the first purpose of this bill is to implement the reorganization of the Ministry of the Environment so that the powers under the Act that were formerly exercised by the heads of various branches of the ministry will be exercised by one or more directors appointed for that purpose by the minister.", "An appointment may limit the authority of any director in such manner as the minister considers advisable so that the director may be authorized to act only with respect to a particular provision of the Act and only for a specific region, of the province or for a specified period of time. A transitional provision is designed to authorize the exercise of powers by the directors appointed under the new authority, and by the Treasurer and minister where appropriate, during the period of time from April 1 to the date when royal assent is given the amendments bringing them into force retroactively to April 1, the date of the reorganization of the ministry.", "The amendments also provide that all receipts and expenditures of the province, including payments by municipalities in respect to projects, will be under the control of the Treasurer rather than the minister. Accounting with respect to these payments will be carried out by the ministry.", "The amendments permit sewage and waterworks projects under agreement entered into after April 1 to be financed by methods other than the sinking fund method, which was formerly compulsory. Moneys under project agreements entered into before April 1, 1974, with respect to reserves and debt retirement will no longer be treated as trust funds under the control of an investment committee and will be transferred to consolidated accounts in the consolidated revenue fund.", "Provision is made for the protection of the employees of the ministry, members of the hearing board and Crown employees involved in ministry work who act in good faith, from legal liability other than application for judicial review to test the validity of their actions. The liability of the Crown for the acts of such employees remains.", "Provision is made for the licensing of waterworks operators in addition to sewage works operators. Provision is made to limit the liability of the ministry on inspections to the liability on common law, that is for negligence, trespass or exceeding authority. The present statutory liability imposed by the Act is unlimited.", "The offence of making a false statement to a minister or a director is extended to cover false statements made to any employee of the ministry. The offence is limited in that it only applies to false statements which are made knowingly." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, section 7 of the Ministry of Housing Act calls upon the minister or the deputy minister to make recommendations to the government of Ontario in respect of housing policies and objectives and the co-ordination thereof. However, as the Act stands there is no provision for the implementation of these recommendations. The purpose of the new section 7(a) is to provide authority for such implementation." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the amendments are made to facilitate the reorganization of the ministry similar to the changes made in the Ontario Water Resources Amendment Act.", "Similar changes are made with respect to the Treasurer having control of all moneys received and disbursed, to limit the liability of employees of the ministry, members of the board under the Act, and Crown employees involved in ministry work, who act in good faith, to limit the liability of the ministry on inspections and to change the provisions with respect to the offence of making a false statement." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. Haggerty (Welland South)", "text": [ "What happened to noise regulations?" ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this legislation is to amend the Public Hospitals Act to allow enforcement of a decision by the Ontario Hospital Appeal Board pending any further appeal.", "A case in point, Mr. Speaker, is the case of Dr. Martin Schiller, who was given a favourable ruling by the Ontario Hospital Appeal Board, and the hospital frustrated the ruling in the sense that it went on to appeal and did not implement the ruling of the Ontario Hospital Appeal Board.", "The purpose of this legislation, Mr. Speaker, is to make the board’s decision enforceable during an appeal and, secondly, to make the appeal directly to the Court of Appeal to avoid too many interim appeals." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, amendments are made to facilitate the reorganization of the ministry similar to changes made in the Ontario Water Resources Amendment Act, but as a new Pesticides Act does not come into force until proclamation, the amendments are not retroactive and will come into force in June at the same time that it is intended to bring the Act into force.", "Changes are similar to those in the Ontario Water Resources Amendment Act and the Environment Protection Amendment Act and are for the purpose of providing that all receipts and disbursements are under the control of the Treasurer for the protection of the employees of the ministry. Members of the board under the Act and Crown employees involved in ministry work who act in good faith; and for limiting the liability of the ministry on inspections, and for changing the provisions with respect to the offence of making a false statement." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, this bill was introduced in June of last year in the previous session. I’m reintroducing it at a time when the need for rent regulation in the province, and particularly in our major cities, is even more pressing than it was at that time.", "The city of Toronto has just asked the province to move with emergency legislation. The mayor of North York, not noted as a radical, has made a similar request, and the demands are coming in from across the province from tenants who are being victimized and exploited by their landlords.", "The bill would establish a landlord and tenant tribunal and a system of rent officers in major cities. It would establish guidelines under which rents would be determined. Hopefully, the rents would continue to be made between landlord and tenant.", "The principle would be that rent increases from a base of December, 1972, would only be justified in relation to increasing costs and not in relation to the speculative and exploitative factors which have been permitted by the government." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "And even encouraged by it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. Campbell", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I rise at this time on a point of order. Yesterday, during the estimates of the Attorney General (Mr. Welch), the committee sat for almost half an hour, unable to have a quorum, because there wasn’t one Conservative member of that committee present --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Shame." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Shame." ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. Campbell", "text": [ "-- save and except for the chairman and the minister. At the conclusion of the vote, we were in the same position and we waited for another half an hour. We did have some discussion but, again, there wasn’t one Conservative member on that committee." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Terrible." ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. Campbell", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, this frustrates the work of this Legislature, and if this government is permitted to show its contempt for the legislative process in this way --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. Campbell", "text": [ "-- having been provided with extra whips to get their members to order --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Five of them are paid." ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. Campbell", "text": [ "-- we are not going to be able to continue to function adequately as an opposition in reviewing the estimates. I would demand, at this time, Mr. Speaker --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please. The hon. member has made the point she wished to make, and I would say it is not a point of order at all." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "And made it well." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Ruston (Essex-Kent)", "text": [ "It is a good point." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "It’s not a point of order. There is nothing in our standing orders providing for any such programme or procedure. I think there are other means by which the hon. member might achieve her purpose." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "It affects the privileges of this House, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Out of courtesy to the hon. member, I have permitted her to continue, even though I knew full well -- and I’m sure she did, too -- that it was not a point of order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "They should be ashamed over there." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, before you call the orders of the day I would like to inform the members of the House that due to circumstances beyond the control of the Minister of Revenue, he will not be able to be with us this evening. I just want to say that in the event we do not finish Bill 26 in committee of the whole House, at 8 o’clock we will proceed to item No. 6 on the order paper." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "At what time?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "Eight." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Gilbertson (Algoma)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, before the orders of the day, I would like to announce to the hon. members that the page-boys and girls are going to distribute some maple sugar to every member’s desk, with the compliments of the Ontario maple syrup producers." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Good for you." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "This is the finest moment in our year." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I might say there is nothing in our standing orders to permit that, but I think it’s quite in order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "The only perks that are left." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Orders of the day." ] }, { "speaker": "Clerk of the House", "text": [ "The second order, House in committee of the whole." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)", "text": [ "Perhaps the minister would outline for us the sections which he may be amending, if there are any amendments, so that any remarks we may have to make could possibly be foreshortened as a result?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. A. K. Meen (Minister of Revenue)", "text": [ "I’d be pleased to do so, Mr. Chairman; I had already indicated to you on second reading that I would have amendments to section 1, and I’ve got one. Let me just make sure I’ve got this right; section 1, sub (1), sub (f), sub (ii) is the way I described it. That is the section dealing with identification of non-residency, one of the criteria for identifying the non-resident corporations.", "I will also have a further amendment to section 1, by the addition of a clause, subclause 3, which will provide a definition of “ordinarily resident.” This is a definition which hon. members may have noticed was conspicuous by its absence by omission from my earlier bill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)", "text": [ "I couldn’t sleep last night because of its absence." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "I’m sure you must have had some reason for lying awake wondering about this bill. I will have an amendment on section 6, subsection (1). On section 9, I will have a small housekeeping amendment -- typographical correction actually -- and I will also have small amendments to section 15 and to section 18." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, perhaps the minister could place his amendment to section 1; and once that amendment is put there may be some general comments that could be made to that particular section. Would that be convenient?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, that is perfectly satisfactory to me, if the hon. members recognize I still have a second amendment to section 1, subsection (2).", "On that basis, Mr. Chairman, I believe that copies of my proposed amendments are not only in your hands but also in the hands of the hon. members opposite who will be participating in this debate. There are extra copies available. I see that my deputy has them and he will see that you get copies." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Maybe the pages could give them out after this amendment." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "While that is being distributed, Mr. Chairman, perhaps I might just make a comment on the first subsection, item (b), the definition of the word “convey”.", "I was interested in some of the comments that were made earlier on in general discussion on second reading with respect to the matter of mortgages. Now the hon. minister will recall that the point was raised concerning the possibility that matters would be upset if mortgages were placed on properties and then final orders of foreclosure, if such should happen, would bring certain problems with respect to conveyance.", "In subsection (c) the minister does refer, under the definition of the word “conveyance”, that it includes not only the usual deed but also “a final order of foreclosure.” I presume that since a mortgage is technically a conveyance, subject to a return of the fee on discharge of the mortgage, that we should have, for perhaps a more general knowledge of this situation, an amendment or an inclusion in the definition of the word “convey” that would include the mortgaging aspects.", "I presume it is the minister’s intention to include that aspect; and perhaps we could have a comment as to how he sees the problem being resolved if an amendment is not considered to be required." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, it was our opinion that the term “convey” was sufficiently broad to cover the grant of a mortgage; recognizing, too, that in land titles a mortgage is a charge and is not a conveyance. We therefore have not specifically referred to mortgage in the definition of conveyance” but of the transitive verb “convey.” But when you get to conveyance, then we have defined it as including a mortgage or charge.", "That’s the reason, as I understand it, for the somewhat broader, and it looks like rather awkward, wording in the definition of “convey.” It is in order to catch all the areas that might affect the release of any interest in land, a quit claim and all the other manners of the transfer of a fee. Conveyance then goes further to include, as indicated, the registration of a final order of foreclosure. If that is satisfactory to the member for Kitchener, perhaps I would now introduce copies of these proposed amendments so he will have copies of them, and the hon. member for Ottawa Centre as well." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Is it the proposed amendment to section 1 you are talking about now? To clause (f)?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "To section 1, Mr. Chairman.", "Hon. Mr. Meen moves that subclause (ii) of clause (f) of subsection (1) of section 1 of the bill be amended by adding at the end thereof:", "But this subclause does not apply where it is established to the satisfaction of the minister that such individual or corporation does not, in fact, exercise control directly or indirectly over the corporation that has issued or allotted to such individual or corporation shares to which are attached 25 per cent or more of the voting rights ordinarily exercisable at meetings of the shareholders of the corporation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "The hon. member for Kitchener." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. A, Renwick (Riverdale)", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, if my friend would agree, just before we get to that particular subsection of the bill, I notice, in looking at the existing Land Transfer Tax Act and subclause (b) of clause (1) of section 1 of the Act, you are now proposing to include a lease as a taxable conveyance. That is not now presently contained. I noticed Mr. Chairman, in the notice issued by the minister with respect to the proposed changes, that he does propose to exempt a lease for a term of not more than 10 years. I am curious as to the reason the lease is to be included as such as document and why there was the selection of the more or less arbitrary term of 10 years as the definitive period of time within which no tax will be levied; and whether or not the same purpose is likely to be accomplished by a continuing right of renewal if the concern and fear of the minister is for long-term leases to become a normal method of conveying property in Ontario?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, a continuing right of renewal would not be acceptable within the ambit of the proposed regulation which would nail this down to 10 years. What I have in mind in endeavouring to enforce this provision is that a lease must be registered if it is for a period, including any terms of renewal, beyond seven years. If I understand the member correctly, what he is saying is that if you had a lease for 10 years with a right of renewal, for say a further five years and a further five years after that, you are really getting to a 15 or a 20-year term unless there are other options open to the lessor, as to say the amount of rental to be charged or something of that sort; giving, in effect, the tenant the first right of refusal but not really an absolute right to renew.", "If he has an absolute right to renew then we would consider that a lease having a longer term than the first 10-year period and would, in fact, look at the total period for which he had an absolute right to renew. If you have a period very much longer than 10 years it is possible for the purchaser -- the lessee in this case -- to treat his improvements on the property as though they were capital. So we looked at this in an effort to have it as short as possible so that he couldn’t acquire by the backdoor what we won’t let him do by the front door without paying the non-resident tax, and yet have something that was enforceable by way of our being able to look at the title and through our registry office procedure be able to keep track of these conveyances, by way of lease or otherwise, which will come to our attention through the mechanism of the registry office.", "Therefore, although 10 years looks arbitrary, it is as short as we could make it. I suppose, in theory, one could make it seven years; but in making it 10 years it looks like a reasonably practical period, having regard for the capital aspect of the acquisition by the non-resident." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, I assume the minister will have that authority under item (a) of subsection (2) of section 18 with respect to the making of regulations." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "I gather that’s the particular clause of the regulatory power that he intends to use for that purpose. He can speak, perhaps, when we come to that section, about the adequacy of it.", "The other clause in item (b) which concerns me is the clause which states:", "... whether the effect of any of the foregoing is to bring into existence an interest of any kind in land ...", "That’s quite all right, but the part which concerns me is the next part:", "... or is only for the purpose of giving effect to or formal recognition to any interest of whatsoever kind that theretofore existed in land ...", "It would appear to me that if, in fact, there is an interest in land and this particular document is only for the purpose of formal recognition, there should be some way of exempting it.", "I would ask the minister two questions. Does he intend to exempt it? Secondly, can he give me an example of the kind of document that would be included in that clause with respect to “for the purpose of giving effect to or formal recognition of any interest whatsoever?”" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, I believe, but I will ask my advisers if they can assist me in providing an illustration or two for the benefit of hon. members, that this is intended to catch some of the less definitive kinds of interests -- an interest in reversion, possibly interest through an estate and various undefined ways in which there might be an interest by agreement, unregistered or otherwise, on the title.", "I’m not satisfied in that answer myself, so I will ask them if they can provide to me, to be conveyed to the members, some more comprehensive answer to that rather sophisticated question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "It may have been a sophisticated question. It was asked out of sheer ignorance of what it was intended to cover.", "Mr. Chairman, I have a further item in connection with the definition of land in the Act. In the existing Act the word “land” is defined to include tenements, realty, fixtures and goodwill. I notice that in the main part of the section there is no reference to the word “fixtures.” I see there is a reference qualifying the word “goodwill.” I’m curious, though, as to whether or not the term “lands, tenements, and hereditaments and any estate, right or interest therein, a leasehold interest or estate, the interest or an optionee, the interest of a purchaser,” in fact, picks up the term “fixture.”", "It is quite obvious that the following part of it -- “goodwill attributable to the location of land or to the existence thereon of any building or fixture and fixtures” -- leads me to wonder whether that last clause, “and fixtures,” covers the point that I am trying to make as to whether or not there is an inadvertent omission of the word “fixtures” in the early part of the definition." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Does the hon. member mean in the earlier Act?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Whether it shouldn’t read, “including lands, tenements, hereditaments, and fixtures and any estate, right, title or interest therein.” It is a pretty technical matter but --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Before the minister answers, I should ask if anyone else wants to speak on clause (b) before it is carried and we move on. Did the hon. member for Kitchener want to speak on clause (b)?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Not at this point, Mr. Chairman. I have been waiting my turn." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "On clause (b)?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Well on section 1 in general." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "I have a number of points, Mr. Chairman, on clause (d)." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Before we deal with the entire subsection (1), there are various points on definition, and perhaps if hon. member may refer to any of the items within subclause (1), the interpretation clause, this may be a way of --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Well we could deal with (a), (b), (c) and (d) with reference to the amendment and go backwards and forwards on it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "It is pretty difficult otherwise." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Perhaps at this point, then, I might just try to answer the hon. member for Riverdale; and then if the other hon. members want me to go back over this area we can.", "The hon. member was asking about the definition of land. The last words in the section, “and fixtures” -- and the hon. member for Riverdale isn’t listening at the moment, but this is expressly for his benefit -- the words “and fixtures” modify the entire clause." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Chairman." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "This is actually a clarification of the earlier section -- to which the hon. member for Riverdale referred -- particularly as regards goodwill attributable to location, which has not been spelled out. A geographic location of a lot may be somewhat different because of its potential for development for some other use, but we have elaborated somewhat on this definition." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Just to complete one point that was referred to earlier by the hon. member for Riverdale, Mr. Chairman, and that is the matter dealing with the situation of the leasing on the 10-year term.", "Would it be the intention of the ministry, then, to keep some sort of record in the registry offices of leases that did have various options of renewal? The reason I am asking that is of course because the right to renewal may be based upon various tax adjustments or other items that might not in effect be seen as an absolute right to renew but rather a discretionary one on the lessee.", "I am thinking that if that is the case the burden, while it is possibly not a very heavy one and will be readily accepted by the lessee, still it could be seen to be a burden which he might not choose to accept; and as a result might not be as carefully watched as would be the case with what would seem to be a stronger right to renew without any condition.", "The question, if I am making myself at all clear, is that if there is a condition which will no doubt be readily accepted, are you going to keep some sort of a record to see if in fact these leases are renewed? Or would you -- and I think it would be more practical -- make a value judgment right at the time to avoid all the traditional paper work or subjective decisions? So that once the lease was proferred for registration, the decision would be made and I think you would save yourself some particular problems." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, we haven’t completed the regulation yet, as I am sure the hon. members can appreciate. But I do expect that we would make the value judgement at the time of registration of the initial lease -- is it an absolute term, are there absolute rights of renewal, are they subject to negotiation of certain terms at that time.", "It seems to me, though I am thinking out loud as I go, that if with the lessee there are certain options, then he really is acquiring at that time a right to go forward even if he doesn’t exercise that right at a later time. So if he has a fixed 10-year term or some term, which coupled with an absolute right of renewal would carry him beyond the total right of occupancy, in excess of 10 years, I think we would make the assessment at that time that he had in fact acquired it by way of a conveyance within the definition of subclause (b)." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "I think the minister would agree there could well be various terms put into an option to renew that might seem onerous, but in fact could be terms of straw which would be another way of attempting to avoid what the minister is attempting to accomplish." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Yes. Before we get away from subclause (b), Mr. Chairman, my deputy tells me that one of the questions under conveyance, if I can read his notes, is that sometimes if there is no consideration, let’s say if there is no tax, the court of appeal, he has pointed out, has suggested that an equitable interest in land can arise with the execution of an offer. I guess I should have remembered that from my conveyancing days.", "You can assign an offer and with the assignment of an offer there is a transferral of the equitable interest. That’s the kind of thing we are trying to get at; where people, I think I am right on this, maybe trade in offers -- submitting an offer with a small down payment at a later time and transferring that offer, or assigning the offer rather than assigning the deed. That would be picked up by this very broad and esoteric description or definition of the term “convey”." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Presumably you are going to have as well the opportunity of vetting any of the various kinds of documents which might otherwise be deposited on titles as clouds on title? Such as --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Yes, the assignment of an agreement." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "The assignment of an agreement as well." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Yes, we would." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "I take it, Mr. Chairman, that in that situation -- if for example a person takes an option and registers the option and in due course exercises the option -- you would have to exempt the second step if the tax was paid at the time of the registration of the option because the option is included? Would I be correct in that assumption?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "I believe so, Mr. Chairman. The intention is not to tax twice on the same agreement, on the same transfer of the fee. If the tax was extracted at the registration of the option, of course, it would not be extracted again when the option was exercised." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "This would be the normal circumstance of any transfer in trust?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "My concern is that you carefully spelled out the fact that if land is registerable in more than one land registry office the tax is only payable once. But I question whether at some point there shouldn’t be a statement in here that you can only be taxed once on one conveyance, rather than leave it to be dealt with solely in the regulations." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "The hon. member for Ottawa Centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, I have felt a bit crowded aside by these lawyers who have been working on the bill. I have two or three general questions I wanted to raise with the minister which hearken back, perhaps, a bit more to our debate on the bill yesterday, although I have some points which may be as fine as those the member for Kitchener and the member for Riverdale have been raising.", "The first question is does the minister know and can he give us any idea of what kind of situation we are dealing with here? Can he give us a general idea of the value last year and the estimated value this year of property transactions in the province?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "I think the hon. member will have to speak to the section of the bill." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "That has nothing to do with these sections." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, it is traditional, I believe, that these more general questions about a bill are raised at the outset. If the minister wishes I can raise them at other points but it seems sensible to get them through at this particular point." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "It isn’t appropriate at this time anyway because it’s not in the sections that we are dealing with." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, the point I wanted to follow up with was to ask the minister what is the estimated value of the transactions he expects to be dealing with? What would have been that value according to his officials if there had been no tax levied? How has that changed over time?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, this is not intended as a tax-raising bill. The Land Transfer Tax Act, specifically in reference to non-residents -- the element which is attracting all the attention in the debate of course-is not intended as a tax-raising measure.", "I, in my ministry, have no idea what kind of money this will raise, because we expect it to be a deterrent on foreign investment in real estate, and therefore I am not in a position to estimate. Of course we have no records of this in the past, because the identification as to whether purchasers were residents or non-residents was never a requirement of any of our registry office procedures. Ergo, we have no record of that sort of thing.", "While I am on my feet, perhaps I could clarify, the point made by the hon. member for Riverdale and the hon. member for Kitchener. As I say, it is not intended to tax twice. My legal counsel point out to me that the tax that would be paid on the registration of the option would be based on the consideration paid for the option. Then, when eventually the option is exercised, the tax that would be charged would be tax based on the consideration paid on the exercise. So in the end result you have not taxed twice, there have been two pieces of tax paid." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "I would like to pursue this point, Mr. Chairman. The Treasurer (Mr. White), in his budget, estimated that the land transfer tax that --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Well, we are not really dealing with the tax. You are out of order as far as dealing with the bill before us is concerned." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "At some point it is reasonable, Mr. Chairman, that the House --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "You had an opportunity to deal with this on second reading." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "The questions were posed, but the way the debate works the minister did not answer the questions which were posed at that time. I will pose them at a further clause in the bill, but it is reasonable to raise it now to get the perspective on the bill and then to talk --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "As I say, you are out of order as far as dealing with clause 1 of this bill is concerned." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The second point I wish to raise --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "If the minister wishes to answer you, why I will concede to the minister’s wishes." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "There’s no answer." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "I don’t think there is an answer for you." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "On a point of order, Mr. Chairman: Can the chairman kindly tell me when questions like this which are relevant to legislation, tax legislation in particular, are to be raised?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Yes; on second reading. The question you are asking at the present time could have been very well raised at second reading of the bill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "It was raised, Mr. Chairman, on the point of order, but when is one to get answers? That is normally done during the question and answer that is permitted under committee stage of the House. It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that to rule these things out of order is not allowing the committee stage to follow its normal course." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Ask him where he was when I was replying on second reading?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "If I may just speak on that point of order, Mr. Chairman, I would suggest the questions raised by my colleague, the member for Ottawa Centre, would be appropriately and properly raised when we come to those two taxing subsections of section 2, which are of course where the tax is levied and where it would appear to me, Mr. Chairman, that questions with respect to the extent of the tax and how much the minister anticipates raising would be very relevant to the clause by clause discussion of the bill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "It could very well be, but I said it was out of order to deal with it on clause 1. One part here may be in order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Chairman.", "The second point I wanted to raise -- I will try to be general at this point; however, bearing in mind your approach, Mr. Chairman, it may be necessary to raise this throughout the bill -- can the minister comment on two or three apparently large loopholes which have been suggested in the bill, as to whether the ministry has taken account of them and what it intends to do with them?", "The two that come most to my mind, which are apparently legal, are the ones raised by the member for High Park (Mr. Shulman) and a loophole which would be involved in evading the tax through the use of options.", "As the minister knows, options for example can be bought, for let’s say 10 per cent of the market value of a property. Subsequently they might be sold a year or two later on a speculative market and the capital appreciation in the value of the property would all attach to the option. Therefore, for the sake of argument, a $10,000 option on a $100,000 property might be sold a year or so later for $50,000 or $100,000; and the only deterrent to the foreign speculator would be to have to pay 20 per cent of the value of the option, which would be about two per cent of the value of the property -- a far cry from having to pay 20 per cent of the value of the property.", "The other approach which was suggested by the member for High Park, was in effect this capitalization. I have a couple of amendments to suggest on that point later on in this section. This would be where the voting control of a corporation was held by Canadians, but where the preferred shares were held by foreigners and the voting control was handed to trustworthy Canadians who could be counted upon not to violate the interests of the majority of the shareholders, although those shareholders would not have voting rights.", "It could possibly be accompanied by a provision, which I think is not abnormal, that would give the preferred shareholders the power to seek to wind up the company in case they grew to be unhappy with the way in which it was being managed. They would not be able to influence the decision-making of the company in any legal way, but they would be able to wind it up upon a certain application.", "Those are two possible loopholes which, it seems to me, would permit either evasion of most of the tax or, in the case of the thinly capitalized company with a very small proportion of its issued capital in voting shares, would permit complete evasion of this particular tax." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "May I ask one point of clarification at this point, Mr. Chairman? Are we now into section 1(1)(f), which deals with the definition of a non-resident corporation? It was with respect to that section that the hon. member for High Park raised the points on which the member for Ottawa Centre is talking. Have we gone on to that part of the Act?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "I will find out." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "I appreciate the interest of the minister in trying to sort of tick off the subclauses one by one. I believe the question about options probably would come under section 1(1)(b); apart from that, I’m quite ready to go on to section 1(1)(f)." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Section 1(1)(b) then, of course, would pick up the term “convey.” If an option is registered then we have some notice of it, and the nature of residency or non-residency of the optionee or other parties to the contract would then come to our attention. And the trading in those options would be subject to the tax in the normal fashion as a conveyance.", "If they aren’t registered and they are traded as paper without being registered, I suppose it is possible to avoid the tax, because at the moment we have no particular mechanism available. We may be able to develop something in the future, but I don’t picture anything at the moment, other than the mechanism through the registry office procedure and the affidavits required by the Act, to identify the residency of the grantee, optionee, lessee or whatever in the registered document.", "The other point raised by the member for Ottawa Centre was the matter mentioned on Monday by his colleague from High Park. The kind of company which his colleague suggested, in which the class A shares would be entitled to all the benefits of profit in the corporation, but where there would be common shares with exclusive voting rights -- the class A having no voting rights under that proposal, as I recall the suggestion of the hon. member for High Park -- would in fact leave control still in Canadian hands.", "The question is, are we trying to cut out all foreign investment or are we simply seeking to cut out foreign control of our real estate? What we are really getting at here is foreign control of real estate. So if foreign moneys see fit to be planted in a corporation here, in which they in fact do not have control and in fact the control still resides with Ontario citizens, then we have still met the criteria we are trying to establish by retaining the control of our land in Canadian hands.", "If we are talking about equity investments, those moneys might go into other stocks and shares in other companies in a similar kind of interest. Are we talking about beneficial ownership? If that’s the case, what are we talking about in terms of normal investments in the case of mortgage and bond investments without control over the destiny of the company any more than those class A shares in the example given by the hon. member for High Park?", "Really, although he called it a loophole, it is one facet of the operation in which foreign money may come in if it wants to. But it will come in under circumstances in which it does not have control over our real estate." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Could I follow that up for a minute? I really find it quite stupendous, what the minister has said. I want to put on the record the proposal of the member for High Park, which his lawyer told him was perfectly legal." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "It’s already on the record." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "All right, and which the minister now says is legal as well. In a company which has 1,000 common shares with the par value of $1 apiece and 999,000 class A shares, preferred shares, with the par value of $1 apiece, the common and the A shares share equally in any profits, dividends, proceeds, capital gains and so forth of the corporation. Voting control is in the common shares which are held by Canadians, or most of which are held by Canadians, who simply act in a prudent manner but in effect are investing the $999,000 worth of share capital which has come in from abroad.", "That is not going to trouble in any way any investors from Switzerland or Hong Kong or the United States or other people who have found all sorts of reasons for coming into this country. What the minister is outlining is a perfectly legal way by which they can come in and continue to do what they have been doing. What he is therefore saying, is that apart from the Detroit auto worker who will find it more difficult to buy a cottage along the St. Clair River, there is no effective deterrent in this 20 per cent tax to foreign money coming into Ontario real estate. This is why the questions which I’ll raise later about the values which are affected are very important, because if what he’s saying is a wide-open loophole to anybody, then why have the tax at all? It is not an effective tax, unless I’ve grossly misunderstood the minister." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "We can debate this thing, I suppose, until the cows come home, but the fact is that what we’re trying to get at is some handle on foreign control of our real estate.", "Following the observations made by the hon. member for High Park yesterday I observed that we might want one day, and maybe not before very long either, to take a look at the element of beneficial ownership, the true beneficial ownership. I’m not suggesting that it’s a legitimate loophole; I’m suggesting that that’s one mechanism which on its face could look that way.", "If in fact, however, those wealthy people over in Switzerland or West Germany or Hong Kong, or wherever the money is coming from into the class “A” shares, are telling the Toronto-based management firm which is holding the common voting shares what they want done with the company which they, the non-residents, really own because they have that beneficial ownership, then it’s a very good question, say my legal advisers, as to whether they are not controlling the corporation. Whether the de facto control is in the hands of non-residents might well be held to be the case, even if on the surface the patent control were in the hands of a few common shareholders who are managing the corporation.", "If they wish to try it, I suppose one might say: “Be my guest.” That’s the approach we’re taking right now, concerning the basic element of control, while at the same time having an eagle eye out, alerted, as others have also alerted me before the member for High Park for that matter, to this kind of potential sway, or as some have described it, a loophole in the Act.", "I have yet to see one that really is one. I think they’re the figment of some people’s imagination. By the time we have issued our body of regulations with definitions, by the time we have worked our way through the Act with the amendments which I will be proposing, I would hope that we have an Act that is not fraught with difficulties. I don’t for one minute minimize the possibility of loopholes being discovered by clever tax lawyers, by clever chartered accountants. That’s, you might say, part of their business.", "It’s a hazard of running government too, that we pioneer new legislation like this. We won’t be surprised if it turns out there are some deficiencies that have to be remedied by amendments to regulations. As I said during the course of my reply yesterday, I might even be back before this session rises for the summer vacation with an amendment to the legislation if I found it necessary; or, if it were possible, to do the necessary elements by amendments to the regulations throughout the summer and be back in the fall almost without doubt with some amendments to the Act." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. Sargent (Grey-Bruce)", "text": [ "In other words the minister is going on a fishing expedition." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Well Mr. Chairman, I suggest we pass the amendments the minister suggested. I have a couple of proposed amendments to sections (1)(f) which would attempt to cover the problem that I have raised. And I offer this in a helpful spirit rather than a combative one.", "I agree with the minister that the de facto question may be other than the de jure question. The problem is, of course, that you have to do this in a legal manner. If control is in Canadian hands, even though it’s with only $1,000 worth of shares, your alternatives may well be to ultimately come up with a clause as the federal Department of Revenue eventually came up with in cases of dividend shipping and -- what is it? -- bond washing and that kind of thing. It simply said these situations exist where the minister deems they exist, or in this particular case that a company is foreign-controlled where the minister says it’s foreign-controlled.", "I wouldn’t propose that amendment right now, but the minister might eventually come to that in order to cover some of these situations where foreign money is hiding under a cloak of control of friendly lawyers or real estate people in Ontario.", "After all, many of these people say: “Look, buy us a couple of apartment buildings; as long as the return is above six per cent a year we are happy.”", "They don’t care where they are; or what they are like. They trust the people locally to come up with a reasonable kind of investment and they take no further interest in it. It’s managed in Ontario. It hots up our market, but they don’t actually exercise control in terms of making day-to-day or month-to-month management decisions." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "The hon. member for Kitchener." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, I am rather surprised at the turn the debate has taken, most particularly because it would appear the minister in his comments has acknowledged that in fact there are immediate ways around the whole principle of this bill. I think that his advisers could well be used this afternoon to deal with the matter of beneficial ownership so that this problem is considered by the House before we pass the various sections of this bill in committee.", "Surely the most important problem facing us is that of beneficial control. Now, as the member for Ottawa Centre has mentioned, the point of beneficial control and the setting up of a class structure of shares was already raised by the member for High Park. The minister is aware of the comments concerning the matters of trust, but I think he would be naive if he thought the situation in which a company could be placed through presumed ownership by Canadians would, in fact, resolve the matter of foreign capital control.", "If it is the minister’s wish to resolve this matter and effectively to tax, at least to the higher rate, those persons who are non-resident Canadians that intend to invest in Canada, he would be well advised now to review the matter of beneficial ownership.", "It is surely not enough to say that the fact that three of five common shares in a private company are owned by Canadians will be enough to avoid the payment of the tax, if that is the principle that we are supposed to be following in this bill. There are immediate ways around this problem. As soon as we define the situation the minister hopes to cover, there will be means of subverting the principle of that definition by those persons who are either learned in the law or are clever in the matter of accountancy and such other tax matters.", "I think the member for Ottawa Centre is correct in his assumption that what we have done today has really been to outline how to avoid the implications of this Act. The fact of Canadian share ownership, where there are a small number of common shares, is not going to resolve this problem.", "It is not going to resolve it in the same way that the matter of effective directorship of Canadian corporations cannot be resolved by the simple fact of naming Canadian citizens as more than half of those persons who are directors.", "We are all well aware that there are problems that can be easily raised and situations, really, which can effectively be avoided by having tame directors, as we will be having in this case by having tame shareholders who may have some technical control and ownership of a small number of common shares in a private company.", "That company can give various securities. It can go into the class share situation to which the member for Ottawa Centre referred. It could, by the granting of its own securities, by a promissory note with a reasonable interest return, by a personal trust situation so far as the ownership of the shares was concerned, by any kind of an obligation or indenture on the assets of the company, avoid the fact of ownership. I think these matters should be considered by the minister.", "If in our interpretation section we are to define particularly the non-resident corporation, then to be complete I think we have to include the matter of beneficial ownership. The minister has proposed an amendment to subsection (f) in which he refers to the control of 25 per cent or more of the voting rights and he refers to the fact that in this situation these are, “voting rights ordinarily exercisable at meetings of the shareholders of the corporation.”", "In this subsection, Mr. Chairman, we have the circumstance of this ownership of voting rights, which perhaps could only come up in case of certain default by common share situation. In other words, again it is the problem the member for Ottawa Centre has raised -- the matter of some kind of class shareholder ownership which would allow parity of involvement, perhaps, as far as the classes of shareholders are concerned; or would involve the large dollar volume of shareholders having effective control as soon as any minor term in the preference items, which would be attached to their shares, might be breached by the operation of the ordinary shareholders or the management of the company.", "Many of these things, of course, are done in matters of trust by a real estate company, a management company, a law office, a chartered accountancy office. All of these individuals are regarded by foreign investors, because of their own professional approach, as being fairly secure persons to whom to give these rights and these trusts. The foreign investors realize they would, of course, have certain professional and ethical controls over any defalcation or failure to live up to the terms of a trust agreement for which any of these various Ontario professionals might be responsible.", "I think, as I have said, the matter of beneficial ownership is going to be the real bugbear in this situation. If the minister is prepared to consider now or virtually immediately a further amendment which is going to resolve this matter he will, I think, be able to control this in the way in which he sees it should be controlled. He and I may disagree as to the eventual result or the various ways of doing it, but I do suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the minister consider the beneficial ownership matter. If he does not, his method of attempting to control this point will not be the effective one he seeks." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the observations made by the member for Kitchener. What I was trying to say was that I had raised the question of beneficial ownership with my advisers to determine whether to attack this sort of situation was, perhaps, an appropriate course of action to follow.", "What my people point out to me is that we have incorporated into the Act -- I’m getting ahead of the story really because we haven’t got to this yet. If the members would like to look at subsection (2) of section 1, we lifted a definition of control from the constrained share provisions of the Canada Corporations Act; if I may just read to them this section:", "For the purposes of subclause v of clause f of subsection 1, “control” means control by another corporation, individual or trust that is in fact exercising effective control, either directly or indirectly ....", "This is what I was saying earlier, that if it can be shown that if those equity investors in the class A shares were in fact exercising effective control, regardless of how that could be shown -- and I don’t minimize the difficulty attached to this aspect of getting at this kind of subterfuge -- nevertheless if it can be shown that such constitutes effective control, then indeed it has become a non-resident corporation for the purposes of those sections.", "So it isn’t necessary at this time to try to come up with some kind of definition of beneficial interest or control by those having a majority of the beneficial interest or whatever, and I think the hon. member for Kitchener can recognize some of the immense complexities that we would face.", "So, having tackled this situation presently by way of a definition of control and taking the course of action found desirable in the Canada Corporations Act along the same lines, I believe we’ve tackled it in the right way now and that if we were to try to simply put in a definition of beneficial control without rethinking many of our other provisions, we could have a meaningless section in the Act. I would recommend against trying to do that at this time, recognizing that we will, over the next few months, have some time to analyse the nature of transactions that come to our attention, the nature of material that comes through the registry office, and we may very well then have a better idea of how to get a handle on it, if indeed it is necessary to go any further than we are going at the moment." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "It would appear, Mr. Chairman, that the minister might then consider that the Corporations Information Act is going to have to be amended so that the ownership of all shares or obligations of the company may have to become a record, if not a public record at least information available to the ministry. Because if you are going to be able to review the changing obligations and the possibility of control and its definition, you may well have to require that additional information in order that at least there will be, coming through your companies branch each year in the Ministry of Consumer and Commercial Relations, some flow of information dealing with other obligations of the company that might lead you to suspect that control was effectively elsewhere than in the three names of the three shareholders who appear in the ordinary return." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "I would just say, Mr. Chairman, I think that is a rather interesting observation that my colleagues and myself might look at." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Is it on this point? On this amendment?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Yes. Mr. Minister, I don’t think you have any control whatsoever insofar as your whole Act is concerned with regard to non-resident corporations or non-resident persons. I think your definition of the various mechanics defeats what we in the opposition would like to see. In effect we are closing the barn door too late. But even this isn’t meaningful at this time and place here." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Out of order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Limitations on how much land an individual may own --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Order. Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "This is not really germane to this section, Mr. Chairman." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Well --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "If the hon. member had wanted to talk about the principles of this bill I would have welcomed his observations during second reading, but we are now into committee of the whole." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "We are dealing with an amendment to subsection (1), clause (f)." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. Gisborn (Hamilton East)", "text": [ "Give him an hour because he wasn’t here the other day." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "I wasn’t here. I had to leave for the other committee; and I’m sorry but I want to register my opposition to this whole piece of legislation." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Oh, knock it off." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "No; but the hon. member knows he is out of order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "The member can’t do that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "We have dealt with the principle of the bill in second reading. We are now in committee of the whole House dealing with clause by clause, so a general discussion --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "I submit respectfully that, regarding the control facts he is talking about, if your aim is bad to start with, then we are talking about bad control." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Actually, it seems to me that’s under the general principle of the bill, which has been carried." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, in this section of the bill he is talking about non-resident corporations and non-resident persons." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "We’re dealing with an amendment to this particular subclause." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Subclause (f) refers to non-resident corporations and subclause (g) to non-resident persons." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "If you have some comment to make about this --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "If you will just keep quiet for a minute, I can --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Order, please. It seems to me you’re discussing the whole bill in general, which is out of order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "It seems to me that every time an opposition member gets up to speak, you interpret what he’s going to say and block him off." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Does the member wish to discuss this amendment or shall I rule him out of order?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Pardon me?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Does the member wish to discuss this amendment? If not, he’s out of order with any further comments.", "The member for Ottawa Centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, I just want to pursue what the minister had to say. I can see the point he makes about control, that there are certain powers of discretion in deeming control to be in the hands of foreigners. I would suggest, though, that it’s still possible, even if that clause is effective, for very large quantities of foreign real estate money to come into this country.", "There is clearly some difference between his party, as a government, and our party as to the desirability of having that kind of money coming in essentially for non-productive purposes, given that the supply of building materials, of land and other things are domestic, are limited and cannot be greatly increased by import of things from abroad.", "The member for High Park, the member for Riverdale and myself could set up a real estate investment corporation entirely owned and directed by Canadians, but in which 98 per cent of the shares were sold to any number of foreign investors who wished to have participating shares with non-voting rights, and it would be quite legal, according to this particular provision. For that matter, as the minister has already indicated, the 49-51 per cent deals would continue to be permissible, and in fact would be encouraged.", "Given the fact that only $300 million is involved in foreign investment out of the $10 billion or $12 billion that changes hands in the real estate market in Ontario in a given year, it would be quite simple for foreign investors to find Canadian partners who would take a 51 per cent share.", "None of that is discouraged by this particular bill, and the bill therefore gets to only a very small part of the problem.", "I would like to ask the minister about the constitutionality of taxing non-resident corporations in view of the points he raised about Prince Edward Island and the constitutionality of other measures during the course of the second reading debate. Specifically, I had understood that the PEI bill had been upheld in the PEI Supreme Court and was now being appealed to the Supreme Court of Canada." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "You’re wrong." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Is that not correct?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "No." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "I beg your pardon. That was my understanding." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Are the reasons for judgement out?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "I can’t answer. I don’t know." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Perhaps you could ask the officials to find out, because the constitutional grounds that hindered the ministry from imposing a ban on non-resident ownership or acquisition of property didn’t seem to interfere in making this particular bill." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "I heard what the hon. member said, but I’m wondering if he really heard what I said. What we were talking about is the constitutionality of the province to levy a tax on real estate. I say there’s nothing wrong with that. We all know we can do that. And, in fact, we can have different rates for residents and non-residents." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "It’s not quite as easy as that. You are not levying a tax on real estate." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "All right. If you levy at such a level that in fact it could be treated as confiscatory -- and our advice and the advice to the select committee on economic and cultural nationalism was potentially the same, I understand -- if you get up to the level of 50 per cent or 100 per cent of a purchase price, whereby you are increasing the purchase price payable by a non-resident or a foreigner by 50 per cent to 100 per cent, you are then dealing in an area which is within the constitutional competence of the federal government and not within our constitutional competence. That is the grey area on which constitutional lawyers have some real arguments. We were not anxious to create the kind of economic turmoil in our economic community that would arise if we endeavoured to do that at this time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "It is not only grey; you are seeking in the dark." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "What we are doing is imposing a tax on non-residents, whether they be Canadians or nationals of other countries, at a rate which is substantial but not confiscatory. That’s the purpose of setting the figure at this time at 20 per cent. It also signals the general direction in which we are thinking with respect to our national heritage, the land we have around us.", "The other point made by the hon. member for Ottawa Centre and the islands concerns discouragement of foreign money. I’m not suggesting that we are discouraging foreign money for all purposes. No one has suggested that. If we can simply discourage it from getting into the real estate investment field and prick that investment balloon from that quarter, their monetary investment interest will be directed elsewhere --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "The Ottawa member is smiling about it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "-- probably, if they still want to settle that money here in Ontario, which we hope they would, into mortgage securities, into bonds and debentures, into the equity investments on the stock exchange if they like that. But we hope this will reduce the upward pressure in the real estate market brought about by the very real presence of a lot of foreign money here in Ontario at the time.", "Now again the hon. member for Ottawa Centre and the islands is straying from subsection (f) and the amendment which we proposed, But perhaps since he missed my reply in the House yesterday on second reading it is worthwhile simply having repeated it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that a tax which according to the budget would be of 87 per cent to a public corporation on the capital gain from a land deal, and would be higher if one took into the account the 20 per cent tax in the case of a public corporation controlled by non-residents --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "I believe the net result, when you take into account all the credits available and the way in which they are applied, works out to something like 95 per cent." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Well now, a tax which is 95 per cent of the profit might be deemed to be confiscatory. A tax which is 50 or 100 per cent in addition to what you pay confiscates nothing.", "There was no obligation on the corporation to pay that tax because they don’t have to go through with the deal. When they do go ahead with the deal they have an asset, only they’ve had to pay more for it. I simply reject the minister’s argument -- I don’t want to dispute it ait length -- I reject that argument as having any validity at all." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Anything further on this amendment? The member for Riverdale." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, I think the minister is going to find that in a number of cases, as the member from Waterloo has said, the question is going to turn on the factual one of who controls the corporation. That’s going to be it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "No quarrel about that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "From the point of view of the local land registrar, who is the collector, when the document comes before him, I think he’s entitled to have a much better kind of affidavit than this particular document which you have circulated as being an affidavit of residence under this particular Act. I think you are going to have to have four kinds of affidavits.", "You are going to have to have an affidavit where the transferee is a corporation. You are going to have one where the transferee is a trust. I think you are going to have to have one where there is a partnership syndicate or other type of association; and one where the transferee is an individual.", "I think the person who takes that affidavit is going to have to state in the affidavit that, in the case of a non-resident corporation or in the case of a corporation establishing that no tax is payable, it is not one of the types of corporations, and specify each and every one of them in the affidavit so it can be ticked off. Because it may very well be that at some point the examination by your auditors of the affidavits which are filed for the purpose of determining whether or not you have collected the tax which is going to be levied, will depend a great deal on being able to establish the specific accuracy of the affidavits. Particularly when you come to this question of control.", "I make this other point because in corporate documents of any kind, and the minister is well aware of this, you have got to have a very clear statement as to who the officers of the corporation are who are going to make those affidavits, if in fact they are going to be made by the transferee if it happens to be a corporation.", "I think somewhere in your regulations, when you prescribe the way in which these affidavits are completed, you are going to have to specify if it is going to be the president or the vice-president or two directors, or some people, when they look at it, are going to say: Is this accurate? You can’t have it in the way, as the minister knows, of a conditional sale agreement where the fourth assistant treasurer can sign it and get away with it and the senior officers would not be fixed with the responsibility.", "I think the nature of the information which is being provided has got to be so clear in here that no agent authorized in writing and no solicitor will be able to hide behind the fact that it wasn’t specifically clear what he was attesting to. I think you are gradually going to find that, except in the ordinary turnover of house transactions, in any substantial real estate deals the solicitors are going to bow out of taking those affidavits on the back of the forms. I just emphasize that because, while the factual situations may be in certain of these definitions accurate, that factual question of control is very, very important.", "I make another minor comment about the amendment which is now before us. I suggest, in the ecumenical spirit in which my colleague from Ottawa Centre is dealing with some aspects of this matter, that perhaps you require a consequential amendment to subsection (2) of section 1 of the bill, because you are introducing the term “control” into this amendment to item (ii)(f). It may well be that you need a cross reference in subsection (2) to subclause (ii) of clause (f) as well, because of your introduction in the amendment of the word “control”, so that you carry over into that subsection this question of control being a factual question. I haven’t gone into it in great detail. I make it for what it’s worth. Perhaps your advisers would look at it and see whether such an amendment is not a necessary consequential one to the proposed amendment." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "The member for Kitchener." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if I might just reply to those observations by the hon. member for Riverdale.", "I couldn’t agree with him more with respect to the affidavit. We all think that We had to have a form of affidavit available on Day 1. It will catch and does catch 999 out of 1,000 of all of the transactions, I expect, to use a figure.", "I would expect that we will have several runs at far more elaborate provisions in the affidavits as to who takes them. I think he’s quite right that there isn’t a lawyer who values his right to practise at the bar who is going to lightly swear one of these affidavits without ensuring himself as to the facts. Everyone is going to be very careful, as was pointed out in my notice to the profession, to which you referred earlier, as to the significance of this affidavit." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "How many weeks did you spend preparing the bill, please?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "It’s an interesting observation the member for Riverdale makes as to subsection (1) of section 2. I hadn’t thought about that, but my counsel can take a quick look at it and see if, because of this amendment, perhaps we should take another look at the definition of section 1, subsection (2), in light of my amendment, which does bring into question the de facto control of the corporation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "The member for Kitchener." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Just a point, Mr. Chairman, with respect to the amendment the minister has moved to subsection (1)(f) clause (ii); it’s interesting to see that he is including in his non-resident corporation the situation with respect to 25 per cent or more of the voting rights.", "I am wondering, though, why he feels the necessity of bringing in this additional subsection. It would seem to me that what he is doing is saying that where he is satisfied that it shouldn’t apply, it won’t apply. Well if that is the case, surely the statement could be proven before the minister, or before the courts. If the matter was raised, the matter would resolve itself.", "Why doesn’t the minister feel that it is necessary to bring in this saving clause? Is it solely because of the matter that he wishes to have his discretion exercisable at this point? Is there some other particular reason?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "No, Mr. Chairman. Actually, I would rather have as little discretion on this as possible and I would like to spell it out as accurately as I could. But on the other hand, when people point out to you that it is entirely possible that one person, say a non-resident, could have a 25 per cent interest in a corporation, but that the balance could be held by as little as one person with 75 per cent, then obviously that is not the kind of resident corporation we are trying to catch.", "I would have no discretion whatever as this Act stands, that corporation by that definition would automatically become a non-resident corporation by virtue of having some minority shareholder -- with no capacity to control a corporation -- holding 25 per cent of the shares. Consequently, it seemed appropriate there should be some flexibility in here to look after what I would suppose would at least apply to some Ontario resident corporations which have, for whatever reason, some block of shares held by a non-resident." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Will this amending motion carry?", "Motion agreed to." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Is there anything further on section 1?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Yes.", "Mr. Cassidy moves that section 1 of Bill 26 be amended by adding the following sections:", "1(f)(vi) Of which more than half the value of all classes of shares is owned or controlled by one or more non-resident persons as defined in this Act and;", "1(f)(vii) Of which more than half the value of all issued capital is owned or controlled by one or more non-resident persons as defined in this Act." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "The purpose of these two extra clauses is simply to present more clearly the questions of thin capitalization which I have raised.", "I think the minister will agree that the section which we just amended, 1(f)(ii), in fact would be covered by subsection 2 -- the general question about whether it is a factual aspect of control or not. The reason that 1(f)(ii) -- if I can get down to it -- was put in was so that you had a set of rules which were fairly automatic and you did not have to sit down and prove control in every case; unless they could produce compelling reasons to the contrary, then when 25 per cent of the shares were in one person’s hands, you deemed that that person, if they were non-resident, had control.", "I’ll send over those amendments; I am sorry." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "While that is going about, I must confess that I am hearing the hon. member, but I am not comprehending. Could he go through that again?", "I thought we had picked up the various definitions which we have found within the constraint share provisions of the Canada Corporations Act and also the Foreign Investment Review Act of Canada, which have definitions. We have used them and taken what I thought were all the various possibilities and essential criteria necessary to identify a foreign corporation; so I am really not at all clear on just what the hon. member is saying." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Okay; subsection (f), which defines a non-resident corporation, could in fact say non-resident corporation means a corporation incorporated in Canada controlled by non-residents. Then the definition of control would be what you have in subsection (ii)." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Could I ask how he would define the value of shares?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Pardon?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "How would the member define the value of shares?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Well, the value of shares is the paid-up capital or the fair market value if there is no --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "But they move from day to day. There is no certainty in it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Not in the paid up value, it does not move; nor does the initial amount tendered for those shares vary. The point about that is the minister has in fact inserted on page 3 -- the top clause -- the similar kind of thing, as value of course would vary from day to day, when he states that a partnership of more than 50 per cent of the value of the property is held for or by non-residents." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "But you see --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "You are running into the same problems. You have spent zillions of dollars on your experts --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "If you think you can do those clauses in a better way I’d be happy to see those proposals. I am saying, though, that rather than wait for the Canada Corporation Act clause to apply you should spell it out wherever possible, and this is an attempt to do so." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "When you are talking about real estate you are talking about the time of the application of the Act, and of course there is an evaluation which can be established on that. What I am worried about is how one establishes the value of all classes of shares owned or controlled by certain persons. They may have different values for certain people, depending on what they can do with them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "But presumably at the time of the transfer tax being paid --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Although commendable in a sense, I think it would cast so much grave doubt as to what a corporation was from day to day -- a resident or non-resident corporation -- that we have to have something far more definite than the value of the shares owned or controlled by one or more non-residents." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, I recognize that when a proposed amendment is put forward we do not have either the time or the skills necessary to put it into the precise language to cover the precise point. The points which are made by my colleague from Ottawa Centre on this question are directed to assisting the minister. The member for High Park gave an example yesterday and I don’t need to repeat it. The minister indicated, I think mistakenly or much too readily, that it was a loophole in his Act. What the hon. member for Ottawa East --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "-- for Ottawa Centre is saying is that half the value of all classes of shares is owned and the value, I take it, that the hon. member for Ottawa Centre is referring to is the paid up capital value of those shares.", "That is, in the case which the member for High Park spoke about, the actual number of dollars to buy that piece of land is going to come from abroad. He wants to make certain that if that system is used you don’t just look at those shares carrying the voting right under all circumstances, but you look at the question of the value of all the shares for the purpose of delimiting this vexed problem of ascertaining where the control is.", "I am very interested that the minister put forward the proposition that he and his advisers looked at the Foreign Investment Review Act of the federal government. I suggest it is entirely different and you have to be much more particular and much more precise when you are talking about speculation in land. You are dealing with speculation in land, where the conveyancers are very careful; the conveyancers have immense expertise. It is a very abstruse art and the corporate lawyers are getting to be as abstruse as the conveyancers in finding their way around these problems.", "That kind of thing would mean to me that the definitions in the foreign takeover bill are quite different and serve a different purpose, and it is done openly and in the public. Here you are dealing with something which is going to depend entirely on a document furnished to a local registrar of title, who isn’t going to be able to go behind the document. Therefore, it seems to me, you would be well advised to look at this amendment. Did you move both amendments?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "I moved both amendments as one." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Look at both the amendments in order to make certain that you have tightened up the area or ruled out the area in which you are going to have to decide this question of control.", "Certainly the question of the value of all classes of shares can be related to the paid-up capital account of the company. You already levy a paid-up capital tax in the Province of Ontario and you have a definition of paid-up capital in that Act which includes loans and moneys advanced by way of loans for the purpose of the paid-up capital tax under the Corporations Tax Act. Similarly in the second amendment, where my colleague deals with half the value of all the issued shares of the company, the same argument applies.", "Please do not close your mind to it. The amendments are put forward for the purpose of delimiting the problem which you are obviously going to face if you want this Act to be efficacious so far as the basic question of control is concerned." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Yes, I agree that I do not want to close my mind to any of these. Quite honestly I think that we are going to have to look at some other definition such as this before we are finished in order to accomplish the end this Act seeks.", "We have a general provision in subclause (v) dealing with controlling, directly or indirectly by one or more non-resident persons, including a non-resident corporation within the definition. I think it gets right down again to the de facto control of the corporation -- which way it happens to have control.", "I am not going to toss out these amendments. They are going to stay in my file and I will discuss them with my colleagues and see if there is some merit in incorporating something of that sort in some of our regulations in order to define with greater particularity just what does or does not constitute control.", "Hon. members will doubtless have more to say on this subject, but they probably already have noticed that the regulations, as provided for under section 18, give the minister a fair amount of discretion as to the way in which this Act may be enforced and interpretations that may be placed in sections such as this, particularly in subclause (g). That’s one I think we might be able to take a look at later. I am reluctant to accept it now though, for obvious reasons. Our counsel won’t have had a chance to consider the implications of those sections with respect to the others.", "May I just mention, in reply to the hon. member for Riverdale, that we can adopt an amendment to subclause (2) as he has suggested -- I think rightly -- which would refer the exceptions here to the whole of subclause (f). I think when we get to that stage that would pick up the objection which the member for Riverdale rightly detected," ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, I have to apologize to the minister, I have to catch a plane to my riding. I appreciate his comments. Will he accept from this side that the registrars are into a new ball game, because they have never had to look --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "I’m sorry, would you say that again?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Your registrars of land titles have never had to look behind transactions in the past. They simply come in, conveyances are put before them, they levy the tax, they do what they have to do, and it’s over and done in a pretty simple kind of way. Now they are being asked to be experts in international finance and corporate structure and so on. The more guidelines you can give them that will allow them to separate put pretty quickly the 990 cases -- leaving only five or 10 out of 1,000 for the, ministry to delve into in the depth that is suggested by section 2 -- the better.", "Therefore, if you can give them a rule that allows them to pounce on a company where, say, 900,000 shares are without voting rights but effectively amount to control and only 10,000 have the voting rights, by all means let them do that." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "I don’t disagree with that, Mr. Chairman. I think we will be having a set of guidelines of that sort. Indeed, I believe they have them now within a limited quarter, and that whenever there is any question the matter would then be referred to the ministry for a ruling within the regulations." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Okay." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "We will now have to deal with these two amendments, or is there further discussion on them?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, I just want to make one comment, stimulated as I always am by my colleague from Ottawa Centre. I don’t want to find that you are elaborating a large number of minute detailed regulations. If you conceptualize the question simply, in a large number of these cases you will find that one of the things which is done is to provide a separate corporate vehicle for each particular land transaction in many cases. And of course we now have these numbered companies under the Business Corporations Act.", "I am suggesting that what you really want to look at is: He who puts up the money for the purchase of the building controls the company. That’s what you are talking about, and not some artificial elaboration of how the share structure may or may not be made up so that you have accomplished what you intend to accomplish.", "That doesn’t necessarily apply in all cases of a large, diversified real estate development company. But where you have specific investments by foreign money in specific developments you will usually find that somehow or other they have a separate corporate vehicle for it. You want to look at where the money comes from; that is equivalent to control regardless of where the particular people happen to reside." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "It’s entirely possible." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "If that’s it, maybe there is some simpler way rather than elaborating a large numbers of obtuse exceptions." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Mr. Cassidy’s amendments must be dealt with now. Those in favour of Mr. Cassidy’s motion will please say “aye.”", "Those opposed will please say “nay.”", "In my opinion the “nays” have it. I declare the amendments lost.", "Before we go on, Mr. Speaker has asked me to inform the House that he has received a notice in accordance with the provisions of standing orders 27(g) and 28 from the hon. member for Port Arthur (Mr. Foulds), which states that he is dissatisfied with the response given to his question yesterday by the hon. Premier (Mr. Davis). Accordingly he intends to raise the question of the regulation of Lake Superior on the adjournment of the House at 10:30 this evening.", "Is there anything further in section 1, subsection 1? The member for Riverdale." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "My next comment is in the definition of value of consideration." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Yes, sub (m)." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Well I am rather old-fashioned about this. I like the wording in the old Act about the true amount." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "I thought it was the same, frankly." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "No, no. “Setting out the true consideration for the transfer or conveyance” and “the true amount in cash,” and so on. It seemed to me that in this kind of a -- I don’t happen to agree with the Minister of Revenue’s interpretation of what the Treasurer said." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Could I have a clarification? Sorry to interrupt the member. I thought he was talking about value of consideration and that’s sub (m)." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "That’s the one." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "I don’t see the reference to which the member is now addressing himself." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "That is what I am speaking about --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "In the old Act." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "I am speaking about the old Act." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Oh." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "The old Act has that delightful word “true” in there. This is a revenue-producing statute, which we can come to when we get to section 2 of the bill, but the present Act states “setting out the true consideration for the transfer or conveyance” and “the true amount.”", "Now somebody may say that is an over-elaboration and unnecessary emphasis in this modern day and age, but for the purposes of this kind of an Act I don’t think it hurts to emphasize that you want the true amount, not some arbitrary or otherwise determined amount -- particularly when there is nothing in this Act, as I understand it, for the purpose of ascertaining value; or am I wrong?", "I am talking about when you state the consideration in the affidavit that supports the conveyance: Do you state the value? How do you come at the value? How do you come at the value of the encumbrance or charge, which is relatively easy; but how do you come at the value of any property or security exchanged for the conveyance of land?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "We have the mechanism in the Assessment Act and through the assessment division of my ministry, Mr. Chairman. And under the definition of value of consideration I think we pick up the various elements that can go into making up the value." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "I am curious, by the way Mr. Chairman, what sort of additional administration are you going to have to set up to monitor this bill?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "We estimate there will be additional bodies required within the present structure of the retail sales tax section of the ministry, but I am presently looking at a reorganization of that aspect and it is not possible for me to estimate at this time the additional people who will be involved. As time goes on expertise will probably mean fewer people, but at the present time it is going to be necessary for us to train a number of people to be able to assess these various elements in the transactions." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Anything further on subsection 1?", "Subsection 2:" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "On subsection 2, Mr. Chairman, I would follow on with the suggestion made by the hon. member for Riverdale.", "Hon. Mr. Meen moves that section 1(2) of the bill be amended by striking out “subclause (v) of clause (f) in the first line so that it would read: “For the purposes of clause (f)”" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "For the purpose of clarification -- and I regret the form in which that amendment reached your desk, Mr. Chairman -- section 1(2) would then read: “For the purposes of clause (f) of subsection 1, ‘control’ means ...” etc., as in the section." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "We’re always glad to help, even with a perverse bill, Mr. Chairman. In the ecumenical atmosphere of the day!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Shall the motion carry?", "Motion agreed to." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "The hon. minister has a further amendment to this section.", "Hon. Mr. Meen moves that section (1) of the bill be amended by adding thereto the following subsection:", "(3) For the purposes of clause (g) of subsection (1), an individual shall be considered to be ordinarily resident in Canada if, at the time the expression is being applied;", "(a) He has been lawfully admitted to Canada for permanent residence in Canada;", "(b) He has sojourned in Canada during the next preceding 24 months for a period of, or periods the aggregate of which is 366 days or more;", "(c) He is a member of the Canadian forces required to reside outside Canada;", "(d) He is an ambassador, minister, high commissioner, officer or servant of Canada, or is an agent general, officer or servant of a province of Canada, and resided in Canada immediately prior to appointment or employment by Canada or a province of Canada or is entitled to receive representation allowances;", "(e) He is performing services in a country other than Canada under an international development assistance programme of the government of Canada that is prescribed for the purposes of paragraph (d) of subsection (1), section 250 of the Income Tax Act, Canada, and resided in Canada at any time in the three-month period preceding the day on which such services commenced; or", "(f) He resided outside Canada and is the spouse or child of, and is living with, an individual described in clauses (c), (d) or (e)." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Shall this motion carry?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "The member for Riverdale." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Again, I think the wording leaves a considerable amount to be desired. The amendment says, an individual shall be considered to be ordinarily resident in Canada if he falls in any one of those classes. I don’t know, I suppose I fall under item (b); I suppose the great bulk of the people in Canada fall under item (b)." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "I would expect so." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "That’s not the purpose of item (b), of course. If you’re going to be that definitive about it, then you’ve got to include something which deals with the great majority of people. And since I’m not any one of the other people who are involved in this -- has my friend from Waterloo sojourned here the proper period of time?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, I’m --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "He’s from Kitchener, not from Waterloo." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "The member for Kitchener." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "I think that does raise an interesting point, but I was more interested in item (f) because we refer to a number of “he’s” and then we refer to a further “he,” who is the spouse of one of the “he’s” referred to in (c), (d) or (e)" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "You know the Interpretation Act as well as I do." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "I was just going to inquire as to whether that was clear so that we were not getting too many “he’s” involved in this kind of situation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. H. Worton (Wellington South)", "text": [ "How about a few “her’s”?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "It does cover the “resided with” as well as “spouse of”, you will have noticed." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "You got my point, Mr. Minister." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Shall this motion carry?", "Motion agreed to." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Is there anything on section 2? The member for Riverdale." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "My colleague, the member for Ottawa Centre, raised the point that this is the revenue-producing section of the bill. This is the section which imposes the tax, and I think it deserves a little bit of comment.", "First of all, I’m intrigued by the minister’s suggestion that he is taxing non-residents here." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Actually, what we are doing is applying a tax in respect of non-residents but against the land, if the hon. member wants me to get a little more precise." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Might I say that the constitution of the country in section 92, subsection 2, or head 2, says for the purposes of direct taxation for the raising of revenue for provincial purposes." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "You can’t impose an indirect tax. It is very interesting that if the transferor tenders the document because the non-resident is away out of the country he can claim against the non-resident for the tax. I question whether or not that isn’t an indirect tax, and whether or not you are not going to be faced with a constitutional question, because the person intended to pay the tax is, as the minister has said, and as has been obvious all along, is the non-resident transferee.", "That’s the person who has to pay the tax, and if that is direct taxation within the province then I think it may leave itself open to some kind of constitutional case to establish it. I will be glad when the Attorney General (Mr. Welch) is briefed in that matter and a case goes to the Supreme Court of Canada for a decision as to whether or not this is a direct tax.", "The second point I want to make is that the budget papers show that you raised an estimated $45 million last year under the land transfer tax. If my calculation is correct, that represents transactions in land in the Province of Ontario of between $7.5 billion and $15 billion, assuming my mathematics are right." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Say that again, would you?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "If you raised $45 million by a tax which varies between three-tenths of one per cent and six-tenths of one per cent, the maximum amount of the value of land which could have been transferred would be $15 billion if the tax had been all three-tenths of one per cent. At one-sixth of one per cent it would be $7.5 billion, so somewhere between --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "On the contrary, your arithmetic is in the wrong direction, unless I misunderstand it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "It probably is." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "It would be $1.5 million if it were all at six-tenths." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Well three one-thousandths of $45 million is $15 million, plus three noughts on the end of it, and that makes $15 billion. Six-tenths of one per cent would be half that amount, that is $7.5 billion. So there were land transactions in the Province of Ontario last year somewhere between $7.5 billion and $15 billion." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Likely about $10 billion." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Roughly say $10 billion, which is a lot of property to be transferred. The minister had said in his budget that you anticipate raising $120 million this year from this tax, of which, according to the Treasurer, the estimate is $60 million for this, roughly 20 per cent tax, technically 19.4 per cent or 19.7 per cent increased tax.", "Therefore I assume that you arc anticipating sales of land to non-residents of about $300 million. If you anticipate raising, at 20 per cent, 60 million, you are obviously anticipating sales to non-residents of $300 million.", "I am extremely curious as to where the figure of $60 million came from. Sixty million dollars compared to $10 billion is some percentage which I can’t quite figure out. Maybe three per cent or something like that. I don’t know what it is." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "It sounds like nine per cent." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Yes. But, when I make that calculation it is a meaningless calculation to me unless I know how you arrived at that estimate of $60 million, because I take it that the ministry hasn’t any idea whatsoever about the extent to which the $10 billion of transfers last year were in fact transfers to non-resident persons, who if the tax had been in force last year, would have been caught by this Act. Is there any information available as to how you determine the estimated revenue that the tax imposed by subsection 2 of section 2 is arrived at by this Treasurer?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, I have none available. I don’t know whether this was developed through his Ministry of Treasury and Economics, or whether prior to my coming on the scene in the Ministry of Revenue my ministry was able to provide certain backup information to his ministry of sales of the known nature. We know, of course, from the $45 million in revenue of last year that on the -- guesstimate I would suppose as much as anything else by the member for Riverdale -- $10 billion may not be out of the way. I don’t know whether we’ve dropped a digit in that calculation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "No, you haven’t." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "I have a notion it’s right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "It’s right." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "So if that is the case, then the $300 million estimated by way of sales to non-residents has to be a guess. It’s very small. If that’s three per cent of the total, then we would hope that it would be even smaller, because as the Treasurer pointed out we are not trying to raise --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "No, he didn’t. That’s very interesting." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "-- $60 million by this. We would expect that some will continue to be raised. We can’t shut our eyes to the fact that this will raise some money. But quite frankly, if it starts raising a tremendous amount of money we might just decide that 20 per cent wasn’t a sufficiently large enough deterrent." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "You would just raise more money that way." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Well, maybe we would, or maybe we would reach, as the economists call it, the economic maximum return. It would be our goal in that case to reach --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Point of diminishing return." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "-- and exceed the point of maximum economic return in order to deter the same volume in dollars of purchases of Canadian real estate by non-residents." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Well, Mr. Chairman, I want to correct a fallacy that the Minister of Revenue referred to yesterday and has referred to again on two occasions today --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Have I been wrong three times?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "-- that it was only with respect to the land speculation tax that the Treasurer of Ontario referred to the fact that it was not a revenue-producing tax. He was very careful not to make any such statement with respect to this particular tax. I am suggesting that no one in any of the government departments has any conception or has any way of collecting the basic information to find out to what extent of the estimated $10 billion in land transactions in the Province of Ontario was transfers to non-resident persons as envisaged by this Act. If the minister thinks he doesn’t know of any way in which the government would get this information, the only true test would be the land transfer tax, and certainly the information in the Ministry of Revenue with respect to the collection of tax doesn’t show that kind of a breakdown." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "That is correct." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Therefore, all I am saying is that I would be very interested a year from now to find out what that figure is." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "So will the minister." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "I am suggesting that in fact this is a revenue-producing tax, that the government intends it to produce revenue, that the Treasurer in introducing his budget -- I have a copy of the budget here if I can just find the precise section of it -- I think my colleague from Ottawa Centre took it -- he referred only to the land speculation tax as not being a revenue-producing tax. Now we will come to that when we get to the other bill.", "This one -- this 20 per cent tax -- he expects will raise $60 million. The 50 per cent tax, in the land speculation bill, he talks of as raising $25 million. That’s the one he says is not revenue producing.", "I am saying to the minister the very thrust of the New Democratic Party position in the debate yesterday was that this is participation by the government of the Province of Ontario in the increased price which will be paid for land by non-residents who will be quite happy to pay the extra 20 per cent.", "There is a wide range of investment permitted under the Land Speculation Tax Act where no tax will be paid by the vendor under that Act and where it will be worthwhile for the purchaser paying the non-resident tax and purchasing land under the Act to pay the extra 20 per cent and not have to absorb the land speculation tax.", "What I am saying is that I think the figure of $60 million is groundless. It cannot, in all charity, be characterized even as a guesstimate because there is no information on which to base a guess. The tax is estimated to go from $45 million to $120 million according to the table as set out in the budget papers." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Well, Mr. Chairman, the Treasurer estimates there will be an increase in the volume of real estate as our economy moves on." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Well, that’s $15 million." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Every year has shown an increase in revenues in this area. So he expects the essential $45 million to aggregate, I gather, to $60 million. His economic advisers look at the state of the provincial economy.", "Now, whether he derived his estimates of non-resident acquisition of real estate through other sources -- and there are many in the Ministry of Treasury and Economics -- I can’t say. I can say that within my ministry that information has not been available, to my knowledge at any rate, through our land registry system. We will be acquiring that and I, too, will be interested to see the information contained in our land transfer tax affidavit over the next year. In fact, we might even have something that we can look at within a few months’ time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "That was my next question. Maybe by the end of June you can tell us.", "Mr. Chairman, I would be very interested and would ask the minister to undertake, would he seriously consider before the House rises -- as I assume it will at some time at the end of June or early in July -- to let us know what the experience has been on the collection of this tax on the non-resident portion of the tax, say, for the first two months of its operation?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, if that information is readily available, I would have no hesitation in sharing it with the members of the House." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, with respect to section 2, the member for Ottawa Centre was going to propose an amendment. I don’t know if it is going to be placed by the member for Riverdale at this point or not. But the amendment which the member for Ottawa Centre was going to make dealt with subsection (2) of section 2.", "In that amendment, I presume it was the intention, as it states here, to raise in subsection (2) the matter of the 20 per cent rate to 100 per cent. I anticipate that the member for Ottawa Centre would comment on this as a possible means of effectively stopping this kind of investment.", "It may be that amendment will not be put, Mr. Chairman, and I could only advise you that had it been put, I would not have been readily willing to accept it. I think the minister has commented on the matter of confiscation and the difficulties that would arise there. But a second and more important point, I think, is the one that would result from charging non-residents twice the price of anyone else who happened to be a Canadian to buy Canadian land.", "Surely, if the 20 per cent figure is not effective, as some of us think it may not be in dealing with the matter of foreign ownership, then indeed to simply raise that total tax amount to 100 per cent only advises persons who are non-residents in Canada that they will indeed have to obtain a rather high return on their money to make the whole prospect worthwhile. If we are to be considering the economic and cultural nationalism committee and its report to this Legislature, then I think we have to consider the recommendation of that committee that foreign ownership, that non-resident Canadian ownership of our lands, should be no longer considered an acceptable situation within the Province of Ontario.", "Accordingly if that is to be the case, Mr. Chairman, then we could amend subsection (2) of section 2 to allow the views of that committee to become the opinion of this Legislature.", "As hon. members are aware, in the debate on second reading of this bill several members who had served on that committee entered into the debate, including the member for Victoria-Haliburton (Mr. R. G. Hodgson). There were comments with respect to the exact involvement and the exact items within that report upon which all members agreed, and certain particulars in which members did not bring in a unanimous report.", "However, Mr. Chairman, I think that if we were to amend subsection (2) to ensure that the ownership of lands within the province was consistent with the report of the committee on economic and cultural nationalism, then the following amendment might be considered acceptable.", "Mr. Breithaupt moves that subsection (2) of section 2 of the bill be amended so that all the words after the word “transferee” in line 3 be struck out and the following substituted: “shall contain an affidavit that the transferee is a Canadian citizen or has landed immigrant status.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, in moving this amendment I think that we have to look seriously upon the suggestions of the committee on economic and cultural nationalism. If standing and select committees particularly, are going to have meaning within the Legislature, then the reports that come from these committees have to be considered serious documents which have ordinarily received the consideration and the approval of the majority of members who have served on the respective committees.", "Particularly when we are looking at select committees, we should surely be at the point where their reports, and the recommendations they make will be seen as influencing governmental policy. Because, Mr. Chairman, if they don’t influence that policy there seems little point in sending members around the province dealing with particular items. Those items are not only the ones of economic and cultural nationalism, they can be anything from the use of our educational resources, to drainage, to snowmobiles.", "I think, Mr. Chairman, if we are serious about the work which that particular committee has done, then the House should give serious consideration to this amendment. I believe the amendment would have the effect most Ontario citizens would like to see, to welcome foreign capital in certain particular forms, but to advise that the future development of our province is to be by our citizens and for the particular benefit of our citizens.", "I believe that, obviously, we must encourage capital of various forms to enter into the Canadian economy so that our economy can be further built up. But surely that development must be on our terms. That development must come in ways which are acceptable to us as Canadians and also as residents of Ontario.", "I think it is quite clear that the economy developing in Canada is surely going to be one of the most important and the most powerful in the world within the next 20 or 30 years, particularly because of our availability of resources and the abilities of our people to deal with a very favoured part of Canada.", "We can’t continue to give away our resources, as my colleague from Nickel Belt (Mr. Laughren) has mentioned, but we also, of course, have to strike a particular balance and a very careful one as we look upon the development of our own resources and economy.", "Accordingly, Mr. Chairman, I hope that this amendment may find favour within the House, because I think that it might be a more effective way of dealing with a portion of this problem rather than advising persons who wish to purchase items in Canada that if, they are non-residents the price has gone up 20 per cent. In effect, we would still be bargaining away our resources without keeping the kind of control that we should have over them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Perhaps we should place the motion first," ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Would the hon. member for Kitchener read the section with the changes as he proposes the amendment? I can’t quite follow it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "I haven’t placed the amendment yet. Perhaps it would be clear if I were to place it.", "Mr. Breithaupt moves that subsection (2) of section 2 of Bill 26 be amended so that all the words after the word “transferee” in line 3 be struck out and the following substituted therefor: “shall contain an affidavit that the transferee is a Canadian, citizen or has landed immigrant status.”", "Any discussion?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "I take it that perhaps I am a little bit obtuse. Because of my colleague speaking with me at the time, perhaps I wasn’t paying attention as closely as I should have been. Is the intention of this amendment, in fact, to reverse subsection (2) entirely and to provide in substance that you are proposing the implementation of the recommendations that are contained in the select committee studies?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Yes, that is correct, Mr. Chairman." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Well, then, I would assume that we in this party would have no difficulty in supporting that amendment. The reasons are quite clear. I referred a little while ago to the spurious nature of the $60 million anticipated revenue from this particular tax put forward by the Treasurer. The second thrust of the debate of the New Democratic Party yesterday on this bill, and the day before, was with respect to the implementations of the substance of the recommendations of the select committee on economic and cultural nationalism.", "Strangely enough, with all of the caveats which are involved in it, apart from the concern of some of the Conservative members of that committee about some minor delay, no one objected to the major thrusts of the report. The essential nature of this report requires that something be done to ensure the continuing Canadian presence in real estate in the Province of Ontario. And the other necessary concomitant part of it is the exclusion of others from participating in it.", "We will certainly support that amendment and I may say that I assume this meets the wishes of the hon. member for Kitchener, but in any event we would not agree to stack this vote. It would be our way of indicating quite clearly that we continue to oppose this particular bill and we are now focusing our attention upon the specific taxing subsection of section 2, which imposes the tax. We would therefore call for a vote on this amendment." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Right now?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Right now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Are you ready for the motion?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur)", "text": [ "Unless, of course, the minister is going to accept it" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Does the minister wish to respond?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Yes. Mr. Chairman, obviously I can’t support this position. It flies completely in the face of everything that I said in my reply on second reading. We cannot undertake something that is without our constitutional competence to have such a provision. I am going to repeat all the arguments I advanced yesterday. The hon. member for Kitchener was in the House during, I think, part of that debate yesterday afternoon. I am not sure that the member for Riverdale was here at that time. But in any event I cannot accept it. Our provisions here we believe are within our constitutional competence and I would urge the House to reject the amendment at this time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Order please. We are considering a motion by Mr. Breithaupt. Mr. Breithaupt moves that subsection (2) of section 2 of Bill 26 be amended so that all the words after the word “transferee” on line 3 be struck out and the following substituted: “shall contain an affidavit that the transferee is a Canadian citizen or has landed immigrant status.”", "The committee divided on Mr. Breithaupt’s amendment which was negatived on the following vote:" ] }, { "speaker": "Clerk of the House", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, the “ayes” are 32, the “nays” are 52." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "I declare the motion lost and the section carried.", "Section 2 agreed to." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Any comment, question or amendment on sections 3, 4 or 5?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "I couldn’t possibly miss the opportunity of speaking when we have such a large audience." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "On which section?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. A. Grossman (Provincial Secretary for Resources Development)", "text": [ "We’ll fix that in a minute." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "The member for Riverdale, on which section?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Could I ask what section?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)", "text": [ "Any section." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)", "text": [ "Three, four or five? That is what be asked." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "On section 3, 4 or 5." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, a minor comment on section 3. Section 3, for practical purposes provides no change, as I understand it, from the --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "It is a modification of the old Act to adapt it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "A minor modification of the old Act, but in substance you don’t intend to change any collection or reporting procedure with respect to the amount of tax paid so far as the responsibility of the collector is concerned.", "But on subsection (4), I am really concerned about two aspects. One I touched on earlier this afternoon, and that is the immediate necessity of revising the affidavits with respect to residence to provide adequate protection for the Treasury to assume collection of the tax.", "At the time the land transfer tax was an internal operation conducted mainly by the legal profession, and the tax was not a matter of great moment and there was little opportunity for evasion, this was not important and you could rely on affidavit evidence at the time the conveyance was tendered for registration to make certain that the tax was paid.", "There was no problem. I doubt if there was very much fraud or misrepresentation with respect to collection of the tax.", "There is an immense incentive now to retain lawyers and others with great expertise to avoid this tax. If that is the case, then I refer to the comments made somewhat earlier about the nature of the affidavits which should be framed to make certain persons swearing to the affidavits are fully aware of what they are swearing to and to make absolutely certain that to the extent that the transferee corporation is swearing the affidavit, you get the responsible officers to be the ones who must swear the affidavit and to make certain that the proper tax is paid.", "I note it is very conveniently tucked away in this particular section, but I raise again that this is the section which says, when the affidavit is made by the transferor or his agent or solicitor, the transferor is personally liable to the Crown jointly and severally with the transferee for the amount of the tax. It is a joint and several liability imposed upon the transferor, that is, the resident in Ontario or the non-resident and the transferee who is the non-resident. There is a further provision that if the transferor is the one who has to pay he has got a right over against the transferee to collect the tax.", "I am suggesting that the government is inviting a constitutional challenge to the tax on the basis that it is not direct taxation within the province in order for the raising of revenue for provincial purposes as required by the British North America Act, because the intention of this Act is that the non-resident will pay the tax. The event which triggers the tax is tendering the conveyance. It is not a tax on land; it is not a tax on the document which is tendered; it is a tax payable by and intended to be payable by the non-resident person. You are imposing a tax on a person beyond the jurisdiction of the province. I am suggesting to you --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. G. A. Kerr (Solicitor General)", "text": [ "Everybody pays." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "-- that you have invited a challenge because it is not the person who tenders the conveyance who is liable for the tax, because normally the person who tenders the conveyance is either the solicitor who closes the transaction or the agent --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "The purchaser pays." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Sometimes the purchaser’s agent. I am simply saying that the person who in his personal capacity appears at the registry office and tenders the document, which is what triggers the tax, is not the person who is liable to pay the tax The person who is liable to pay the tax is the transferee, and the transferee who has to pay the tax is a non-resident." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "He pays more. Everybody pays; he just pays more." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "The non-resident has to pay this particular tax. He has to pay more but he has to pay it under a different subsection than a resident. I am simply suggesting to the ministry that, quite properly, they have said when the transferor or his agent or his solicitor tenders he is jointly and severally liable. That is a protective provision to protect the Treasury.", "The intention of the bill is to impose a substantial increase in tax at the rate of 20 per cent under a separate section of the bill on the transferee who is a non-resident. I am simply suggesting that there is a very real question in my mind as to whether or not that happens to be a direct taxation within the province in order for the raising of revenue for provincial purposes. And this, Mr. Chairman, will be a convenient time to break." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Will there be further discussion on this section?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Oh, yes.", "Hon. Mr. Winkler moves the committee of the whole House rise and report progress and ask for leave to sit again.", "Motion agreed to." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Are you going to the health bill tonight?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)", "text": [ "We are going to item 6 this evening.", "The House resumed, Mr. Speaker in the chair." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker the committee of the whole House begs to report progress and asks for leave to sit again.", "Report agreed to.", "It being 6 o’clock, p.m., the House took recess." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a message here from the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor, signed by her own hand." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "By her own hand, Pauline M. McGibbon, the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor, transmits estimates of certain sums required for the services of the province for the year ending March 31, 1975, and recommends them to the legislative assembly, Toronto, April 27, 1974." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. W. Ewen (Wentworth North)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure for me today to introduce to you and to the hon. members of this Legislature, grade 12 students of Mount Mary Immaculate Academy of Ancaster, sitting in the west gallery." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. W. Snow (Minister of Government Services)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would like to draw to the attention of the hon. members that we also have visiting us today, a group of students from the T. A. Blakelock High School in Oakville seated in the west gallery." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. H. Jessiman (Fort William)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would like to introduce a class of grade 7 students from St. Stanislaus School in the great city of Thunder Bay; they are sitting in the east gallery." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Statements by the ministry.", "Oral questions.", "The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)", "text": [ "I would like to ask the Minister of Labour, Mr. Speaker, if he can give a report to the House on the status of the special negotiation with the hospital workers which the Premier (Mr. Davis) alluded to last Thursday; including any indication as to whether the government is going to make a policy statement that in some way will relieve the threat of yet another strike under these circumstances." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. F. Guindon (Minister of Labour)", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Speaker; as of last week it was obvious to us that the parties needed some assistance, perhaps technical assistance, from the Ministry of Labour. This assistance has been given; there were meetings held last week and other meetings are taking place today." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A supplementary: Would the minister not agree that as well as the technical assistance which he can undoubtedly offer, what is really needed is a clear statement of government policy that the funds will be available so the hospitals can enter into meaningful negotiations, so that the hospital workers can contemplate acceptance of a settlement that would be in their best interests, without being forced by government policy to go out on another illegal strike?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "As I say, Mr. Speaker, meetings are taking place at present, and I’m expecting a report from my staff." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A supplementary: I’m aware the minister does not want to say more, but can he give an assurance to the House that something other than the provision of some expert assistance in negotiation is taking place? Is there some specific commitment on the part of the government, either through the Minister of Labour or the Minister of Health (Mr. Miller), that funds are going to be able to be spent by the hospitals to reach a fair settlement?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Labour is not shirking his responsibility. I’m very close to the situation; and as I say meetings are going on." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. T. P. Reid (Rainy River)", "text": [ "Another non-answer." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Riverdale." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)", "text": [ "By way of a supplementary question of the Minister of Labour, Mr. Speaker, will the minister tell me, for example, whether he has received the conciliation report in the dispute between the Riverdale Hospital and Local 79 of the Canadian Union of Public Employees? If not, when does he expect to get it, since it has been outstanding since some time in February?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "I cannot say for sure insofar as the Riverdale Hospital is concerned. I know that at one point last week conciliation services had been provided to three or four of the 12 hospitals." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, by way of a further supplementary --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "A supplementary over here -- the hon. member for Rainy River." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "Thank you. Is the minister aware that the provincial executive of the OSSTF reconfirmed their support for the hospital workers over the weekend and have recommended to their people that they support the hospital workers, including support on the picket lines if necessary? Doesn’t the minister think this escalation has gone far enough and that he should make some kind of statement as to the moneys that are going to be made available?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "Well Mr. Speaker, once and for all, I want to assure the hon. members that if there is one member concerned in this Legislature today, it is the Minister of Labour; I hope that by next Wednesday I may have a statement to make." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. A. J. Roy (Ottawa East)", "text": [ "That is all the minister is saying, though. Let him give us some evidence." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Leader of the Op- position." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I have a new question." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Oh, supplementary --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I’ll permit one more supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, by way of a further supplementary question, will the minister make a definitive statement tomorrow about the exact state of negotiations between the Canadian Union of Public Employees and each of the hospitals in Metropolitan Toronto, so that we know exactly the state of the negotiations in each of those hospitals and can see what can be done to bring them to a successful conclusion?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, in this particular case and for the first time I think, the parties are trying to bargain on a regional basis, so I don’t know if I could give a report for every local. However, as I said earlier, I am planning to be in a position to make a statement in the middle of the week." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "The director of Riverdale Hospital is waiting for the conciliation report." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Has the hon. Leader of the Opposition a new question?" ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A question of the Minister of Agriculture and Food, further to a question a week ago based on an article in the Globe and Mail about potato pricing in the Metropolitan area which, it is alleged, comes under unnecessary and unfair restrictions, particularly the funding of the procedures whereby potato pricing does come under the unnatural controls which were referred to in that article. Is the minister now prepared to report to the House, either from the Food Council or from his independent research, whether there is a procedure whereby potato prices in the Toronto area are maintained at an unnaturally high level, and not to the benefit of the producers? Is there any indication that money from illegal sources is being channelled into the facilities that make this procedure possible?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. A. Stewart (Minister of Agriculture and Food)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the matter is under investigation at the moment." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A supplementary: This is the second time the matter has been raised; it is something other than just a routine question. Can the minister indicate to me if it is being investigated by the police forces or if it is still being looked into by some assistant deputy minister in the agricultural ministry?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the matter is under investigation, and I have nothing more to add at this particular time. It is a very serious matter." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)", "text": [ "By whom?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "I think the report as was printed in the press -- certainly there are many things about this that we want to look at very carefully and I can assure the member it is being done, and done in depth." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "By the OPP or by the agriculture officials?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Shulman (High Park)", "text": [ "It has been known for years. Why does it take the Globe to bring it to the minister s attention?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the minister: By the OPP or by the agricultural officials?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "I have nothing further to add, Mr. Speaker. I can tell my hon. friend it’s under very definite, very close and indepth investigation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. minister says he has nothing further to add. Therefore there can be no more supplementaries. The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "He can be asked." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Ask the Solicitor General (Mr. Kerr)." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a question of the Treasurer: Has any action been taken to examine the possibility of making a purchase of land, in Haldimand-Norfolk, in the area which the minister knows very well, amounting to 12,000 acres in the former Townsend township -- that is, mostly in Townsend township -- which would evidently still be available at the option price of $1,600 per acre? Is the minister either negotiating himself, or prepared to turn over to the newly elected regional council, the responsibility for making decisions on the possible acquisition of this land?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. White (Treasurer, Minister of Economics and Intergovernmental Affairs)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, there have been proposals made from time to time by a representative of the consortium with respect to these lands. The early proposals were not acceptable to me because they involved a form of joint venture which I thought was not appropriate. The most recent proposal, which followed a conversation with the representative of the consortium, offers the lands for sale unconditionally at their cost plus certain expenses, plus an acquisition fee.", "On receipt of that proposal, I sent it to the Minister of Government Services whose experts have been asked to evaluate it. More recently, in fact, I think last Friday, the Clarkson Gordon company has been asked to vet certain of the information contained in the proposal and that accounting firm will have a reply for us, an evaluation for us, about seven days hence.", "I had a conversation this morning with the chairman of Haldimand-Norfolk. The executive committee is meeting on Wednesday and will get an expression of opinion from the members of the executive committee. The council proper will meet on Thursday and each member of the regional council will be asked to express his opinion about the suit- ability of the alternative townsites available to us. When we have that input from the region, the government will have to make a decision as to whether or not the consortium lands are suitable and whether the financial proposal or some modification therefore is acceptable." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I have a question, finally Mr. Speaker, with your permission, of the Minister of Transportation and Communications. With reference to the report that was made available from his office, entitled “Preliminary Report on Station Configurations and Dimensions for the GO-Urban Transit System”, it now appears this preliminary report indicates that the stations tor the GO-Urban system may very well be something less than what the Premier described in November, 1972. It does not appear, from the aesthetic point of view, that they will fit very well into the modern city, since their lengths will run up to 1,000 feet and more and their widths up to 50 to 60 feet. Can the minister indicate whether the policy group over which he has jurisdiction has considered this preliminary report, and if they are still intent on going forward with the expenditures associated with the GO-Urban programme since these reports, one after the other, indicate the concept is not fitting into the needs of the modern cities?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. R. Rhodes (Minister of Transportation and Communications)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I don’t believe the policy committee has, in fact, seen that particular report." ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. M. Campbell (St. George)", "text": [ "Well what have they seen?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Has the minister seen it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Maybe that’s because the report is labelled December, 1974." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "The particular report being referred to was one that was made available to the study group that was looking into the Scarborough Expressway and other transportation studies that were going on. It was an internal report made available to them for their information.", "I would point out, Mr. Speaker, that some of the points that have been made in the article to which the hon. Leader of the Opposition is referring really are not that accurate as to the size, because the figures that were used in the report indicate the total length of the station, including the switching area required. In fact, the stations themselves would not be at all in excess of 1,000 feet as referred to in the article." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. P. G. Givens (York-Forest Hill)", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Considering my leader’s previous question, and considering the fact that the minister’s officials now estimate the total cost of the experiment at the CNE is increased by 40 per cent, does the minister intend to live up to the promise made by his predecessor that: “There will be $17.5 million spent in total on the Toronto demonstration system and not a dime spent further until that is, in fact, successful”?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "That’s what he said." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I cannot --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Be bound!" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "-- be bound if you will, by previous comments that have been made." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "The minister won’t last long. After making his promises they’ll be putting him back." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that hon. members, I think, will appreciate that a figure of $17 million as was quoted at that time, obviously is subject to the inflationary factors that we are living with in this country.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)", "text": [ "So long ago!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Givens", "text": [ "Supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scar- borough West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Givens", "text": [ "Supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Scarborough West." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. A. Grossman (Provincial Secretary for Resources Development)", "text": [ "What’s the matter with the member for Scarborough West? Can’t he hear?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Now that the estimates are verging on an increase in excess of 50 per cent of the first figure calculated, when is the minister going to have, for the Legislature, his set of predictions, presumably for his successor then to deal with? When will he have that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "When will he repudiate it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "In the last two minutes it has gone from 40 to 50 per cent." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I said to the House last week I would get the figures that were asked for and I will bring them before the House. I’m in the process of doing that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. Campbell", "text": [ "This year?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Givens", "text": [ "This year?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Yes, this year they’ll be here." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "Even if he isn’t the minister?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "I don’t intend, as I said last week, to bring them in piece by piece. I’ll bring in what the members asked for and present it to them at that time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "We’ll keep asking." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Supplementary, if I may: Will the minister not agree the figures that are now being used have very little to do with inflationary factors but have a great deal to do with the underestimate which was originally contained in the government’s analysis? Is there a ceiling beyond which the government will not go? Can the minister indicate that publicly?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Givens", "text": [ "It is $17.5 million." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I still feel that most of the cost figures -- and again these will be brought here -- indicate there is, a very very real factor involving the inflationary problem in this country today that’s, adding to these costs. Members will have a chance to see it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. M. Deacon (York Centre)", "text": [ "It’s all inflation?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Well do the members not recognize that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "It’s not inflation. Ten per cent is inflation, but not 50 per cent." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "The member will have to revise his figures then, because he has been talking over the last four years at 10 per cent a year." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Not in the months we’ve talked about this project." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order please. The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "The member can’t have it both ways. Either there is inflation or there isn’t." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scar- borough West.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I have a question of the Solicitor General if I may. Are any of the police forces associated with or attached to his ministry entering into an investigation into the potato matter which was raised with the Minister of Agriculture and Food?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. M. Havrot (Timiskaming)", "text": [ "Potato chips." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. G. A. Kerr (Solicitor General)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, it is my understanding that the investigation is being carried out under the aegis of the Ministry of Agriculture and Food.", "I am not aware that any police force itself is involved in this investigation. I understand it is a matter of the Food Council being involved and also the possibility of charges being laid under the Combines Investigation Act." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "By way of supplementary, does that mean that no one in the Solicitor General’s ministry that he knows of -- and I presume that would also be true of the Ministry of the Attorney General -- has yet been called in on the investigation with Agriculture and Food?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "I am not aware of any such request, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Yes, a question of the Minister of Natural Resources:", "Can I ask the minister what he intends to do about the emergency situation in Elliot Lake, where 700 workers in the Denison Mines have been on a wildcat strike now since Friday -- I believe it is since Friday -- in objection to the safety and health hazards that exist in the mine?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. L. Bernier (Minister of Natural Re- sources)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am sure the hon. member is much aware of the efforts we are employing in the Elliot Lake area. We are working very closely with the Ministry of Health; just last week I had the officials of the union in my office and we discussed the matter in complete detail. We are moving ahead and they seemed quite satisfied when they left my office at that particular time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "By way of supplementary, can the minister explain the measure of satisfaction, since for the first time in the 18 year history of the mine, 700 people have walked off the job because of safety hazards; 60 safety hazards enumerated on Saturday, many of which contravened the Mining Act as it is now constituted? What does his ministry intend to do about it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, my ministry and the officials of my department of mining section are on top of this matter. I am just waiting for a full report from them and when I have that I will take further steps." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "By way of supplementary, is the minister aware that on Nov. 6, 1973, and again on April 16, 1973, his chief mining engineer for Ontario, Mr. Davis, indicated there were no reports of safety problems in the Denison Mines? Therefore how can he say he is on top of the matter when 700 people are out on strike for that reason now?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, we are entirely on top of the matter. We have been on top of it for some considerable time and studies and discussions have been going on with the union. In fact the Ministry of Health has done extensive x-rays of the miners in that particular area.", "We have done some very exhaustive studies and we have had experts in the field. We have had difficulty getting the type of experts in ventilation and the various problems that are associated with a uranium mine. These experts are pulled together now and we are moving ahead with what they are asking for." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. F. Stokes (Thunder Bay)", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: In view of the high incidence of silicosis in the uranium mines at Elliot Lake, what does the minister, in concert with his colleague the Minister of Health, intend to do to insist that that industry clean up?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am sure the hon. member for Thunder Bay is aware of the very intensive study we have embarked upon, in fact it is at the press right now. It was prepared by Prof. Patterson. That report, of course, will give us some indication as to the seriousness of the matter and maybe some direction as to which way we should go.", "We are also working very closely with the Ministry of Health, as I pointed out just a moment ago, in the x-ray field where we are moving at great speed. In fact we have made more marks and made more mileage in the last six or eight months than we have in the previous three or four years. So we are well aware of the situation and we are moving in the right direction, I am positive." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A question of the Minister of Labour: Is the Minister of Labour aware that since the legislation has been changed, 107 pensions have been granted by the Workmen’s Compensation Board between Jan. 1 and March 1 of 1974, for silicotic victims, primarily from the Elliot Lake area; and is the minister prepared to put some pressure on his colleague to do something about the unheard of conditions in the Denison Mines and the Rio Algoma areas?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, we are working very closely with the Ministry of Natural Resources and I will make it a point to look into it myself personally." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "May I ask the Minister of Health a question?", "After the promises made in November, 1973, to the workers in Elliot Lake about silicosis, about tuberculosis and about radiation hazards prompting the possible incidence of cancer, why is it that they had to come back this month and beg for the kind of health survey which the minister had indicated would be undertaken and have not yet been undertaken; and now we have 700 people out on strike because of the health and safety hazards in the uranium industry?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. F. S. Miller (Minister of Health)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I haven’t any fast reply to that question. It is one of those issues we have been looking at in connection with occupational hazards in industries, and just this morning I spent quite a bit of time talking about it. We are very anxious to determine, in fact, the cause and effect relationships in that industry." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scar- borough West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "One last question, of the Premier: Given the government’s emphasis on uranium now; given the contracts entered into with Japan and Spain; and given the description of incredible conditions in the mine -- about heavy equipment operated with less power than is required, with dust conditions where workers cannot see each other, with ventilation problems which leave people gasping in the mine -- can the Premier somehow co-ordinate the activities of the ministries in order to respond energetically to the problems of Elliot Lake which have forced these 700 men to leave their work?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "The Premier needs a superminister, that’s what he needs; some more superministers." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. G. Davis (Premier)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, as the Minister of Natural Resources pointed out, his ministry has been very much aware of the situation and is working towards solutions to some of the problems. If it would help the hon. member, I’d be delighted to discuss it with him again and with the Minister of Health. The government is concerned and is quite prepared to take whatever steps will help resolve the situation. As the minister pointed out, he met with some of the representatives just last week on this very subject." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Downsview." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Health. Could the Minister of Health tell us if he is going to do anything about the problem raised to him by the Interns and Residents Association of Ontario, because his letter of March 19 addressed to the Ontario Council of Administrators of", "Teaching Hospitals, suggesting that the Minister of Labour might supply mediation or that individual hospital boards might have another look at the situation, has obviously been ignored and the problems of salaries, working conditions and the very serious problems raised by the interns and residents remain unsolved and continue as a festering sore in our health service system?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I had an opportunity to meet some of these interns and residents not too long ago on an unofficial basis and I believe they too have had some change in their approach to things. We felt, at that time, that the proper place for these discussions on salaries and hours was within the teaching hospitals and universities. I still feel that is the proper place for these discussions." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, by way of a supplementary, I presume the minister refers to a meeting held close to the March 19 date, which is the date of the letter that he sent forward. Is the minister not aware that since sending forward the letter the situation hasn’t changed one bit; that the Minister of Labour has not been accepted as the conciliator nor have any of the individual hospitals chosen to bargain? I am advised that the interns and residents are more angry than ever and that the minister is doing nothing except exacerbate an already very difficult and unfair situation." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I will look into this, but there is a tendency always to assume the minister should interpose himself into operations that are quite properly between two other parties. It is a good thing not to interfere with those operations until you’re needed." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Well, the minister is needed right now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Port Arthur." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur)", "text": [ "I have a question, Mr. Speaker, of the Premier. In view of the failure of the Minister of the Environment (Mr. W. Newman) to meet his commitment to me on April 9 to supply this Legislature with the detailed information on the regulation of Lake Superior; and in view of the meeting reported by Canadian Press on April 11 between himself and Governor Milliken of Michigan in which, and I’m quoting:", "“The two leaders agreed that the International Joint Commission should adopt a new water regulation plan for Lake Superior and that the two federal governments should provide compensation for power interests at Sault Ste. Marie and property owners along Lake Superior damaged by higher water levels.”", "Is the Premier now prepared to tell the people of Ontario what specific regulation plan for Lake Superior he has agreed to and whether or not he is prepared to agree to the use of Lake Superior as a reservoir for the Great Lakes water system?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I don’t think the Governor of Michigan and I made those final determinations. I think what we did agree to, or what we felt had merit, was to have the International Joint Commission, which is I think the appropriate body in this case, deal with it. That really is the substance of what was said by both Governor Milliken and myself." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, if I may. Why then does the story say -- which gives the implication that an agreement has been reached and he has agreed with the federal plan -- that there should be compensation for higher water levels on Lake Superior? If he says he has not agreed to any plan, why is he saying there should be compensation for proposed higher water levels?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, as I recall the discussions and the statement, it referred to the responsibilities of the International Joint Commission, and if in its wisdom -- and this would have to be accepted by both federal governments, not by the State of Michigan or the Province of Ontario -- this led to a programme which did have some negative effect, and obviously some very positive effect, the question of compensation should be something that the International Joint Commission should study in its recommendations." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "A final supplementary, if I may, Mr. Speaker: Is the Premier not aware that in fact the federal Canadian government and the federal US government have agreed in principle to a regulation plan and that they are awaiting concurrence from the government of Ontario?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I recognize the federal government at Ottawa and the American government have had discussions on this issue and on a number of other issues. I’m not sure there is an agreement. I will check that out and find out whether there is in fact an agreement.", "I mean, we had an agreement with Canada and the United States with respect to water quality, which was really the main basis for my discussions with Governor Milliken, but the American government has not met its commitment under that agreement. Our concern is that this be approached through the International Joint Commission and this is really the essence of that part of the statement made by Governor Milliken and myself." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Ottawa East." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "Point of order --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I had three supplementaries from the same member; it is sufficient." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "A point of order, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Point of order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "I would like to inform you and will further inform you in writing that I do not deem the minister’s answer satisfactory and under standing order 27(g) will request a debate tomorrow night." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Ottawa East." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "The Premier is going to have to come back Tuesday." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "The late show." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Does the member like the late show?" ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a question of the Minister of Health, and the question deals with the Smiths Falls situation: In view of the fact there has been improper utilization of hospital beds and a report of the College of Physicians and Surgeons in fact indicated that 80 per cent of the beds in both hospitals were being misused -- something like 109 beds out of 189 -- what does his ministry plan to do to correct that situation and save the taxpayers from abuses by the hospitals and by certain physicians in that city?" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "He’s going to make the beds." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the situation in Smiths Falls is not unique in the Province of Ontario, where we have --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "What he is admitting is that he is wasting millions." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Oh, listen to the answer." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "May I suggest that when we try to take remedial measures in some of the areas that are in the member’s riding, that he should assist us, too." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "I am prepared to co-operate in anything." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "It is very simple to talk about the things the government should do as long as they are not in the member’s own riding.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "He has to cover that riding, too." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "There are two hospitals in that town, as I understand, and that is true through many rural Ontario communities. It is true not only of rural municipalities, but it is particularly true of rural municipalities where perhaps sound economics would dictate only one or a combination of services.", "Our ministry has been working very actively with both hospitals in that municipality -- firstly, in an attempt to buy one of the hospitals, I believe the member will find; and secondly, to amalgamate services and define the roles if that course of action doesn’t materialize. We are still, I think, having a good deal of co-operation and assistance from the people in both hospitals in that municipality and I hope we are on the verge of solving the problems." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "If I might, as a supplementary, Mr. Speaker: In light of the fact that last year the deputy minister made a suggestion that 18 active treatment beds be reclassified as chronic care beds in Smiths Falls, and it was subsequent to pressure from certain Tory doctors on the minister’s predecessor that the ministry’s mind was changed, does he plan to continue this approach to bend to the will of the doctors who are abusing these beds? In fact, may I say, Mr. Speaker, on this question is the minister not in fact admitting that the situation in Smiths Falls -- which by conservative estimates is a waste of about $1 million a year -- goes on throughout the province?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I think it has been the policy of this ministry over the past year and a half to take some very real steps in terms of rationalizing the hospital bed situation in the Province of Ontario. We can show that some 1,700 beds were taken out of active treatment service during the past 12 months, in an attempt to provide the services that people need at the price they can afford. There is no question that in this particular area we would be better off to take some of the beds and put them into chronic hospital use, and that is the basis on which our discussions are going on." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Why did the ministry back off last year?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Thunder Bay." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "I have a question of the Minister of Industry and Tourism. Can the minister explain why 18 performance loans in the amount of $1.5 million have been granted by the Ontario Development Corp. seven full months after the announced cancellation of the granting of forgivable loans or performance loans?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. C. Bennett (Minister of Industry and Tourism)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, at the time we announced the cancellation of the performance loans we made it extremely clear to this House that we would be looking at applications for about a six-month period thereafter. Applications that had been filed by the end of July of last year would be looked at up until December of that same year. Those loans were extended on that basis." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "A supplementary: Is it an ad- mission, then, by the minister, that it takes six to seven months to evaluate the applications for performance loans that are coming into the Northern Ontario Development Corp. or the Ontario Development Corp.? Is that the minister’s admission that it takes them seven years to evaluate these applications?" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Seven months, seven months." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "The member for Thunder Bay said seven years.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Seven months." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "Seven years is closer." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, we can assess or evaluate the applications a great deal more quickly than that, but at times it requires the assistance of the applicants to make sure they have all of the information filed with ODC, NODC or EODC. Quite often we find that information is not available and for some period of time it’s held up by the applicant. Until they have it in, sir, we cannot make a final decision.", "They were informed that if the information was not in the hands of the development corporations before the end of December, 1973, the applications would be waived in default as a dead file." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for York-Forest Hill." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Givens", "text": [ "Could I ask the Minister of Revenue whether it is true that various American mortgage-lending institutions are now holding up all mortgage loans pending the passage of the land transfer tax and speculative tax legislation to determine whether these pieces of legislation will adversely affect them; and that this will have a devastating effect on the quantum of mortgage loans in this province?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "It’s on the order paper." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. A. K. Meen (Minister of Revenue)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, it has not come to my attention directly that any number of corporations may be doing this. I mentioned last week that it had come to my attention that there was at least one such lending institution that was concerned about the matter; and in that instance I assured their counsel that their mortgage advances being made to their builders would not be in a secondary position to any liens which my ministry took back in the event the property were eventually sold to a non-resident Canadian.", "Now whether others may be doing that at this time, I am not in a position to say." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "All are, all are." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "I might observe, though, that that happens to be one of the reasons why I have indicated my anxiety and my desire to get on with the completion of the Land Transfer Tax Act." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The government is drying up all the mortgage funds, land --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for High Park.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "What is the Premier talking about? He is going to make it tougher to get housing than it is now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, order; the hon. member for High Park is next." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "The leader of the NDP would not have a nickel of mortgage money going." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for High Park." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, if we may turn to a lighter minister, the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "He is not a light weight." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "He is better looking." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Can the minister comment on the unique packaging and cartage methods used by his department which resulted in 301 out of 319 cases that arrived at Freedland St. last Thursday being smashed; and can the minister comment on how much material disappeared out of those smashed cases en route?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Cases of what?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Beverage of some kind.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Oh beverages; oh, I see. Is that milk?", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. T. Clement (Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations )", "text": [ "Well, Mr. Speaker, I am not aware there were any cases of, I gather alcoholic beverages being broken. I will find out -- unless the hon. member wishes to work through his usual sources." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "The minister wishes he had been there instead of the member." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "There is an issue to get the member’s party elected." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "We need one." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "I just wasn’t aware of it. I didn’t catch the number. Did the member say 300 and --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "There were 301 out of the 319 smashed on arrival." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Call the shipper --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "I see. Were they smashed when they arrived or after they got here?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Both." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Thanks very much.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Kitchener.", "" ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "It might have been the staff that was “smashed”.", "Anyway, Mr. Speaker, a question of the Minister of the Environment. Is the minister investigating the private garbage disposal business in the Toronto area further to the recent reports in the press that two American companies are apparently taking over the industry and forcing smaller operators out of business?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman (Minister of the Environment)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, we are aware of all the potential sites in the greater Metro area and who owns them at this point in time; and we are investigating all the sites, as a matter of fact." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "The minister is familiar with the garbage business, isn’t he?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "The member for Ottawa East knows all about garbage." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman (Windsor-Walkerville)", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Supplementary; yes.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "Could I ask the minister to consider looking into the ownership of that type of industry in other areas besides the city of Toronto, because in my local area Sasso Disposal are owned by Browning-Ferris of Dallas, Texas." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "Yes; I must be careful in answering the question. We are looking at the total right throughout the province, at all these sites." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Wentworth.", "" ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question of the Minister of Labour.", "Doesn’t the minister agree with the inspector under the Construction Safety Act that the fines that are levied by provincial judges for violations under the Act become a licence for the construction industry to violate the Act, since they are much lower than the penalty clauses normally incorporated into their contracts? And does he not believe that it might be necessary at this time to establish a minimum fine in addition to a maximum fine, in order to bring the fines into line and to bring about better construction safety?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I wouldn’t dare to make a statement at this time until I have really looked at the whole matter myself." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Is the minister aware that the fines for violations under the Construction Safety Act average no more than $150, even though the maximum is $10,000; and that a $150 fine in a major construction project is, in fact, no fine at all?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "The hon. member knows full well that we have up to a maximum of $10,000 and it is left to the court to decide as to the amount of the fine. So I doubt if the Minister of Labour should really interfere with the court in this matter." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Essex-Kent." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Ruston (Essex-Kent)", "text": [ "I have a question of the Minister of Health. Is the minister aware that some nursing homes have a clause in their residence agreement that in the event of death the resident is obligated to pay the full month’s care regardless of the day the person expires?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have to say no, I am not aware; but I would be glad to look at it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Sandwich-Riverside." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. F. A. Burr (Sandwich-Riverside)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a question of the Minister of Health: What provision has the ministry made for the care and rehabilitation of patients from the St. Thomas Psychiatric Hospital whose discharge back into the Windsor area is being, or already has been, directed?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, we are, as I am sure the member knows, taking steps to rehabilitate quite a few people from our psychiatric hospitals. We are trying to move them out of the major institutions and back to a form of care that is more useful to them.", "In many instances we are moving people into homes for special care, as I am sure he is aware, in an attempt to bring them into a less institutional environment. This is the approach we are taking in that general area; in fact one might say in the general area around any of our psychiatric hospitals, which at this point in time are considered to be full of, say chronic psychiatric patients rather than active treatment psychiatric patients." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Burr", "text": [ "A supplementary: Is it the policy of the ministry to establish halfway houses or sheltered workshops for such patients in those areas?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "I can safely say it is ministry policy to assist in halfway houses for psychiatric patients. One of the problems, of course, is obtaining the proper kind of location and management for these; both for the psychiatric patient and for other types of patients, such as the alcoholic." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Burr", "text": [ "A supplementary: Does that mean the minister looks with favour on sheltered workshops and halfway houses?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "I have just read a brief on that area of activity, Mr. Speaker, and I would say yes, I look with favour upon that kind of thing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Huron." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. J. Riddell (Huron)", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker.", "A question of the Minister of Agriculture and Food: Is he aware that an artificial product has been introduced to the consumer within relatively recent times called Fancy Honey, which is a sugared syrup artificially flavoured to resemble honey but it is anything but the product of honey bees? Is it not contrary to the Farm Products Grades and Sales Act to give an artificial product a natural product name, and such being the case would he see that the word “honey” is removed from this product?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, we had a meeting with the honey producers’ executive last week on this point and the matter is under consideration to see how we can possibly deal with it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for High Park." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "A question of the Minister of Health, Mr. Speaker: Can the minister explain why he has gone against the advice of his own experts and allowed optometrists the use of drugs?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, first of all I am very pleased to have a question from the member for High Park. I had stopped eating apples some time ago, when he stopped asking me questions, in the hope that he might return to his daily procedure -- and it has finally worked.", "I suppose he is jumping to a conclusion that I received one piece of information from one person in a matter of advice. I understand the hon. member has a copy and I know that a number of other people have a copy of this advice. Just how they got it I’m not quite sure, but I’m very curious to know." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Why?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "It was delivered by hand." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "If the minister asks me, I will tell him." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "I can safely say that this one issue received a great deal of consideration and a great deal of advice was given about it. The position the ministry took in enunciating the health disciplines bill was taken after a very great deal of thought. I believe it is a fair position." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A supplementary. I wonder --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "May I ask the first supplementary?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Yes, I think the hon. member who asked the question should be entitled to ask the first supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Can the minister name one senior person within his department who supports his view?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Speaker, I can, but I won’t." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I’d like to ask the minister if he doesn’t feel the situation he is responding to in this question is almost identically analogous to the situation involving dentists and denturists? Why should he take such a strange position with the denturists since he is prepared to allow the optometrists this particular responsibility?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Certainly it’s a good thing that the hon. member is not in the governing party, because I think he would find there is a fundamental difference between the denturists and the optometrists. One is a graduate of university in the Province of Ontario; the other person has not yet proved his competence by any method of testing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Obviously the minister didn’t understand the question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Well, a supplementary: Is the minister not then prepared --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, is the minister saying in his answer that the position regarding denturists is not going to change and that he is going to work with the Attorney General (Mr. Welch) to continue the raids on the denturists’ premises and to proceed with the charges against them?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Did he say all that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Again, I would point out to the hon. member that he is jumping to conclusions not based upon fact." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "And which is not true." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please. The last question was asked by a member of the New Democratic Party. There are just a few moments left and we shouldn’t have any more supplementaries.", "The hon. member for Welland South." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. Haggerty (Welland South)", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour. Is his ministry considering an extensive study of vinyl chloride as to its ability to cause cancer among certain employees employed in related industries?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "Well I don’t think we have any money in our budget this year concerning such a study. Perhaps I can look for money in next year’s budget." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Ottawa Centre." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "A question of the Minister of Health, Mr. Speaker: Can the minister say what drugs he intends to give optometrists the power to prescribe; whether some of those drugs are lethal in certain quantities; and what training he believes that optometrists have in the use of these drugs?", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Well I am interested to note, as a matter of fact, that the hon. member is an advocate of the medical point of view." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)", "text": [ "Isn’t the minister jumping to conclusions?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Answer the question." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "I will be glad to. In the bill, if the hon. member has taken the time to read it, we say that an optometrist may use such drugs for such purposes as are permitted in the regulations. That is the way the bill reads." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Yes, but what are those drugs?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "The drugs that are to be permitted, insofar as I understand it at this point in time, although the regulations are not finalized, are the topical anaesthetics for the use of tonometry only." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Well Mr. Speaker, a supplementary --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "One supplementary only." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Is the minister not aware that some of those drugs are lethal in certain quantities; and what controls does he intend to apply to the non-medical use of those drugs?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, Aspirin is lethal in certain quantities." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Don’t put it in the eye." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Windsor-Walkerville." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question of the Minister of Labour. Is the Minister of Labour aware that Allied Chemical, the American owner of Daal Specialties Ltd. in Windsor, is planning on either moving the facility from the Windsor area or completely closing the plant?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "Yes Mr. Speaker; there have been a number of rumours floating around the Windsor area in connection with the Daal Specialties plant. This plant, I understand, employs some 400 people, 300 of them being female. The company is engaged in the fabrication of seat belts, and I am informed that because of a reduction in production and technical changes it would appear that the company has been affected. I understand that two of their plants already have been closed down in the United States. However, this is only rumour, as I state; I haven’t had any official notice from the company. I did hear, as well as my hon. friend did perhaps, that rumours have it they might leave Windsor to go to the Collingwood plant but I wouldn’t want him to think for a moment this is official. They are only rumours." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The time for oral questions has now been exceeded.", "Petitions.", "Presenting reports.", "Motions.", "Hon. Mr. Winkler moves that the estimates of the following ministries be referred to the standing resources development committee: the Ministry of the Environment; the Ministry of Natural Resources; the Ministry of Transportation and Communications; and the Ministry of Labour." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "In that order?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "Not necessarily. I will inform members later today." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Introduction of bills." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. J. A. C. Auld (Minister of Colleges and Universities)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, this amendment removes the requirement that not fewer than three and not mare than four members of the board of directors of the authority be civil servants." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "About time, that one." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Auld", "text": [ "Great stuff." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "That one the minister could nationalize." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Auld", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, this amendment would allow a student, either male or female, who is a graduate student studying for a further degree at the University of Toronto to be a resident of Massey College. I hope members wont ask to change the name of the bill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Orders of the day." ] }, { "speaker": "Clerk of the House", "text": [ "The ninth order, resuming the adjourned debate on the motion for second reading of Bill 26, the Land Transfer Tax Act, 1974." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)", "text": [ "Tell them what is wrong with the bill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Shulman (High Park)", "text": [ "I am a little embarrassed by this bill, because I am attacking the wrong minister here. I know the hon. Treasurer (Mr. White) was responsible for bringing it forth. I consider the Minister of Revenue (Mr. Meen) one of my friends in this House and for what I am about to do to him I apologize as one friend to another.", "Without a doubt, this is the worst bill -- not as to intent but as to result -- that has ever been brought into this House. The minister intended two purposes when he brought the bill in. He wanted to stop foreign money coming into the country in the form of equity ownership but he wanted to encourage debt to come in.", "He wanted the mortgage money to continue to come because it has to come in. If it stops coming in, interest rates are going to rise very rapidly and people just aren’t going to be able to get mortgages. The result of the bill is going to be exactly the opposite of what he intended.", "Last Thursday, Mr. Speaker, I telephoned one of the lawyers who specializes in real estate in this city. I am not going to use his name because it would embarrass him with his clients -- I am one of them -- and I said to him, “I have some friends who are not Canadian citizens. Actually, they live in Switzerland. They have been doing a great deal of purchasing of land in this province and they would like to continue to do so but they don’t wish to pay the 20 per cent penalty. On the other hand they don’t wish to break the law and in fact, they insist the law not be broken. Is it possible for them to continue to buy land here in this province, without paying the penalty and by remaining within the law?” I received this reply back from him, delivered by hand, Mr. Speaker, and I would like to read it to the minister. First of all, let’s take care of the equity half of the matter. We will come to the debt shortly.", "“Dear Mr. Shulman:", "“You asked me to lay out a method whereby your Swiss friends may make a $2 million purchase of Brampton real estate without paying the new 20 per cent land transfer tax. I understand that they insist that everything be done perfectly legally and, of course, that is the only way I would go along with it in any case. There is really no problem at all. As soon as your people are prepared to proceed I will set up a new Ontario corporation with two classes of stock, common and class A. Our firm will hold 51 per cent of the common and the remaining shares will be divided up between the Swiss, but no individual may hold more than 25 per cent.\"" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Eaton (Middlesex South)", "text": [ "That is a loyal Canadian." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "To continue:", "“It is, of course, fully understood that the common shares will have complete control of the management of the company and will make the decisions as to which land is to be purchased although we will, of course, be pleased to receive advice from the minority shareholders, your clients.", "“The class A shares will be held entirely by your Swiss friends and provisions will be put into the charter to the effect that all income and disbursements of capital to the extent of 99 per cent of both shall be distributed to the class A stock. Using this method the provisions of Bill 26 are not violated in any way and your friends will be able to make their purchases without the added 20 per cent expense because, of course, control remains in Canada.", "“The cost will be nominal. Please forward a cheque for $2,500 and there will be in addition the usual management charges.", "“Yours sincerely.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)", "text": [ "Is that just for the letter?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "That is an expensive letter." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "That is for setting up the corporation. The $2,500 is for setting up the corporation and for doing the other various researches that are necessary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "What does the minister say to that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am sorry the Treasurer has left because he is the man who brought this bill in. Over the phone the lawyer made one other comment to me and I hate to pass this on, but in this small body I am sure it wouldn’t be reported. He said, “Having read the bill it was my impression it was drawn up by someone’s junior although, on second thought, it might have been drawn up by one of the lawyers in the Attorney General’s department. Perhaps that is the ex- planation.”", "I know that is not the explanation. The explanation is quite different. I will come to the explanation shortly but first of all, before we leave that aspect of it, I want to come to the other half. The minister says he doesn’t want equity to come in but he does want debt. He wants the mortgage money. In fact, he needs the mortgage money but what everybody forgot when they set up this bill -- and it is so simple that it boggles my mind that they forgot it -- is no more mortgage money can come in because they can never foreclose. Who is going to put up mortgage money where if he has to foreclose, if the payments are not kept up, he suddenly has a 20 per cent tax put upon him? In order to do that, if the minister really wants to put on the 20 per cent tax, if he really wants to run the risk of having this happen, he has to raise the interest rates at least two or three per cent a year.", "Let’s suppose the minister is going to bring in an amendment saying foreclosures won’t be covered. He has to do that or else there is not going to be any more mortgage money. It is finished; dried up." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. A. K. Meen (Minister of Revenue)", "text": [ "Did the member read the bottom?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Yes, I read the bottom. If the minister brings in an amendment to that, saying foreclosures will be allowed or exemptions can be allowed, suddenly we have a hole so big one can drive a truck through because when equity wants to come in, it doesn’t come in as owners; it comes in as mortgagors. So we are had if we do and we are had if we don’t. It is just an impossible situation.", "In actual fact, he doesn’t have to worry because, although he may only be aware of one company involved, every foreign mortgage company has stopped lending in Ontario. They stopped last week and if one goes out and tries to get a mortgage today from any of them, one can’t get it. All the minister has to do is get on the phone and he will find that out.", "The member for York-Forest Hill is perfectly right; they are sufficiently upset about the implications and lack of thought in the bill that there isn’t mortgage money available. In fact, it has gone a little further. All real estate transactions, for all practical purposes, have stopped. There is a sudden lull; where everything was rushing through, now everything has stopped because nobody knows what is going to happen. They know the bill can’t live as it is. It has to be radically changed. But can it be changed sufficiently to allow these various inequities to be ironed out and still have any of the original effects the minister intended? I doubt it. So do the lawyers; so do the mortgage companies." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. P. G. Givens (York-Forest Hill)", "text": [ "They think the government is a bunch of amateurs." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "They are not amateurs. I can explain what happened." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Givens", "text": [ "But he used to close so many deals himself." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "He had nothing to do with the bill; it was the good old Treasurer. The Treasurer said one day, “We’ve got to have a great budget here and what are we going to put in it? We really haven’t got much to put in the budget. What would be great would be a land transfer tax.” He said to the people in his department -- and where he made his mistake was he didn’t give them enough time -- “I want a 50 per cent land transfer tax.” That was turned down by the cabinet, Mr. Speaker. The cabinet refused that. He went back and said, “How about a 20 per cent land transfer tax?”", "The cabinet bought it but they didn’t leave enough time for the people in his department to draw up the bill; it was drawn up hastily. They had about 2 1/2 to three days to do it and they didn’t have time to think through the implications. The lawyers made the mistake but I can’t blame them because the government didn’t give them enough time. That is purely and simply the answer.", "I don’t want to belabour the point. The bill is an abomination. It is going to force up the price of land. It is going to force up the price of mortgaging. It is going to force up the price of real estate. It is not going to do the things which the minister wants it to do, which is keep out foreign ownership. In the odd case of small people, the guy who is buying a cottage or something, he will come in and buy his little piece of land and pay the 20 per cent transfer tax; but he is just going to add that on when he resells it. The minister is going to force up the price of little housing, too.", "The bill is such a mistake that I have one piece of advice to offer the minister -- withdraw the bill; take it back. We agree with the intention behind it; we know he was trying to do the right thing but it was just badly thought out; perhaps I should say it was not thought out. I offer the minister as a friendly suggestion -- and I really mean it this way -- the bill won’t work.", "If he lets it go through over his name, six months from now he is going to cry “uncle” and he is going to wish he had never heard of this bill.", "The price of land, the price of real estate in this province is going to be up by at least 20 to 25 per cent within that time. The foreign money will come in as before except it won’t be coming in as debt which is how he needs it; the price of mortgages will be 15 per cent in this province. He can come back and laugh at me if I am wrong. If he puts this bill through, by Christmas we will have 15 per cent first mortgages in this province because there just isn’t enough Canadian money to supply the mortgages and we are not going to get the foreign money any more. The minister has scared the hell out of them.", "Mr. Speaker, I won’t belabour this any further. I can only say that amendments will not save this bill; the bill is going to produce exactly the opposite of what the minister intended. I very strongly recommend to him, as a friend of the government, that he repent and withdraw and bring it back in a more acceptable form." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Who is the friend?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The member for Rainy River." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. T. P. Reid (Rainy River)", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is with somewhat mixed feelings that I rise to take part in this debate. It is always a problem if one is not the first or third or fourth speaker on these matters, because most of those great ideas one has had have been pretty well covered by other speakers.", "First of all, I would continue saying as my colleagues have and the NDP have, the bill will not work. It is too flawed, has too many loopholes and, really, as has been pointed out on occasions before, the principle of the bill in itself is flawed. We have yet to hear really what the principle of the bill is, what it really intends to do.", "If it intends to cut off equity investment in the Province of Ontario obviously it doesn’t do that. All it does is make the cost of doing business in the Province of Ontario 20 per cent more expensive. If that was the reason, obviously it is not going to work.", "If, Mr. Speaker, the principle of the bill was to improve the amount of housing on the market in the Province of Ontario, obviously it is not going to do that either.", "What then is the principle of the bill? The member for High Park has probably given as logical an explanation as to what has happened as anyone else. The cabinet decided in their wisdom that they had to do something. The Minister of Housing (Mr. Handleman) was making great speeches around the province that he was going to do something about speculators, and so they came up almost overnight with some kind of policy to try to combat this situation and a policy somehow to control it.", "It’s interesting, Mr. Speaker, that the Treasurer, whose last budget perhaps was supposed to be his monument, is having problems with this budget. You will recall last year one of the principal items that the Treasurer put forward for the general benefit of the people of the Province of Ontario was an increase in the sales tax with an added seven per cent new tax on home heating oil and fuel. The Treasurer was forced to retreat on that. I would suggest that if he and his colleagues, particularly the Minister of Revenue, will give this bill a sober second look, they will take it back and bring in a new bill which will not confuse and dismay not only people outside of the Province of Ontario but certainly Ontario residents themselves.", "Mr. Speaker, it’s a continuation really of the government’s programme to govern by headline. If you talk to a lot of ordinary citizens who would not ordinarily deal in these kinds of matters, they will say the government is doing great things; but it’s a farce and a sham and it’s hypocritical to proceed with this bill as it is now.", "My own political philosophy is that we should not allow Ontario land to be sold to non-residents. I said that over the years. I was one of those who pushed originally for the cutting off of recreation land to non- residents. I might say, Mr. Speaker, that I come from an area that to a great extent in some particular cases depends a great deal on American investment in Ontario recreation land. Some of the small communities in my riding and in other areas of northern Ontario depend almost entirely on Americans coming up to their summer homes or buying summer homes in that part of the world and having them built and spending money on supplies and so on. I might just add as an aside that there’s another interesting phenomenon going on in that we are now attracting German people in particular. Even some Japanese have been showing interest in our area.", "I would suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, and I don’t want to get into a long philosophical debate about the ownership of land, unless of course you insist, that land is the most precious heritage we have. What gives value to that land is the character of the people who inhabit it and surround it and the stability of the governmental institutions which give stability also to the ownership of that land. So I would say that I am categorically against the sale of land in the Province of Ontario to non-residents.", "I might also add, Mr. Speaker, that I have a personal problem in this regard. A few years ago, two friends of mine and myself purchased a defunct mining town complete with houses, sewer and water, hydro, roads and so on. We bought that with the intention of perhaps developing it but hopefully selling that property, perhaps subdividing it and, quite frankly, making a profit. In those days there was nothing wrong with that concept, and I suppose there is really nothing wrong with it these days either. We can’t change the rules of the game that fast.", "My friends and I have been to the federal government to interest them in this property. They have not been interested. We have been to the Ontario government and offered to sell this property to them and they have shown no interest. We have advertised across Canada from Vancouver to Halifax, including Toronto amongst other places, and Calgary, Winnipeg and so on, to sell this particular piece of property to Canadians because we wanted this property to remain in Canadian hands. As a matter of fact, we bought it with that aspect in mind because we understood some Americans were trying to buy it and we wanted to retain this piece of property, which is a particularly beautiful recreation spot, in Canadian hands." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)", "text": [ "Very, very high-minded." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "Right. Unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, we found that there weren’t any Canadians interested. Neither the federal nor the provincial government nor anyone seriously answered any of the ads that we placed in the papers across Canada. The only interest that was shown was by some people from the United States who had heard about the property and who came up to see it.", "So, I have a personal conflict there, Mr. Speaker, and this particular matter could put me in severe financial straits. I think this is something that the Legislature should also keep in mind, that these are some of the side effects that will happen. But I continue to state, Mr. Speaker, I do not believe that land should be sold to non-residents of Canada or the Province of Ontario.", "Unfortunately, because of market conditions, some people are going to be in a position of being forced to do so unless this government takes action to outlaw the practice altogether, which I believe it should do. On the other hand, I think also that the government should set up a system whereby it will be, if we want to put it that way, a buyer of last resort of not only recreation land, but farmland and commercial land." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "And mining towns." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "And defunct mining towns particularly, perhaps.", "Mr. Speaker, it concerned me somewhat when I first saw this bill to see what exactly the effects of it would be. As I’ve said, all it will do is increase the cost of doing business in the Province of Ontario and add to our already high inflation rate. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, that aspect in itself is enough to have the government withdraw the bill, rethink its position and bring in a bill which, in fact, will control the situation.", "I give you another example that happened within my riding just within the past few months, Mr. Speaker. I had a farmer come in to see me, frustrated, upset and facing a very serious economic crisis. For some years he had used or rented the adjoining farm from a person who lived in Manitoba. He used to run his cattle there and the cattle used that farm for pasture land. Not to go into all the circumstances of the matter, Mr. Speaker, what happened just recently was that the gentleman from Manitoba, and perhaps he had good reason -- I do not know -- sold to an American the farm that he had next door to the farmer in my riding. The American, as far as I know, has no plans to use that land other than to sit on it and use it perhaps as a speculation in that he hopes he’ll be able to make a profit in years to come.", "What has happened in this particular small instance, and one that’s probably very microscopic in the economic life of the Province of Ontario, is the fact that a Canadian farmer, an Ontario farmer, was not able to purchase that land. He is now deprived of the use of that land perhaps. It is now owned and controlled, which is probably as important, outside the Province of Ontario and outside Canada. These are serious matters that must be dealt with and yet are not being dealt with in this bill.", "As also has been pointed out, talking to this particular minister -- whose only function really as a minister is to administer his department and not set policy -- is perhaps a waste of time. I would have thought that we could have heard the Treasurer speak on these matters.", "It’s interesting to note, Mr. Speaker, from the report of the select committee on economic and cultural nationalism, particularly in regard to foreign ownership of Ontario real estate, that the matter was debated thoroughly, and that they did have the facts and figures when they recommended in their report that the sale of foreign lands be cut off. Having gone through the report to refresh my memory, as I recall it, the report indicated that there was a net inflow of capital or equity investment in the Province of Ontario, in relation to commercial land in particular, of some $100 million. The figures that were extrapolated from that indicated that that probably meant a gross investment of close to $1 billion.", "In other words, another $900 million or so was raised in the Province of Ontario or in Canada, or was taken back by way of mortgage. The net investment in dollar terms in any given year, according to the committee in any case, was something like $100 million. The rest was raised primarily in Canada, as I say, by way of mortgage, bank loan or so on.", "Does that mean, if that equity investment was wiped out, by not allowing foreign ownership of land, that we would in fact lose that investment? I think not, and the committee, which had a majority of Conservatives who signed this report and supposedly agreed with the recommendations, obviously felt the same way.", "You know, Mr. Speaker, there was a time in Canadian history when equity investment was important in our commercial operations, in our industries and in our natural resource extraction. It was important not only for the dollars it brought in, but the expertise that it brought with it. In a lot of cases we needed the knowledge of foreign investors in the way to develop our industries and our natural resources.", "I would suggest to you most respectfully, sir, that those days are now gone, and that to a large extent in the world today Canada is in fact exporting the expertise, the entrepreneurship and the managerial ability that we imported when we originally imported the equity investment in dollar terms into Canada.", "I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that the bill is not only flawed, it is wrong in principle. The principle should be no foreign ownership of land in the Province of Ontario. I would suggest that the bill is only going to add to inflationary pressures in the province by some 20 per cent -- a larger increase than we have seen -- in the price of food and other goods in the Province of Ontario.", "I would suggest most strongly that the minister take the bill back to cabinet and bring in a bill that will deal with and control the situation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for York South." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, everything that needs to be said about this bill already has been said. Unfortunately that doesn’t mean that we cease talking about it, because the government has committed itself to it, and sometimes the process of uncommitting it takes a little time.", "I think what has to be done is to take the major points, which have already been made, and to drive them home in the hope that perhaps the minister will recognize the folly of what has been imposed upon him by his colleague, the provincial Treasurer.", "As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, as I was listening to some oi the observations of my colleague from High Park, a moment ago, I was thinking that in a strange way this is this year’s energy tax.", "Last year the energy tax was conceived in the administrative portions of the department. It wasn’t thought through. Its political consequences weren’t considered at any great length. It was the kind of thing that had a certain inexorable logic that fascinated the provincial Treasurer, so he brought it in. But it exploded in his face, and within one week he came back to announce its withdrawal and told a press conference that 95 or 99 per cent of the people were opposed to it.", "How a minister could be so insensitive to 95 or 99 per cent of the people being opposed to it and bring it in in the first instance was always a little bit puzzling.", "This bill really should be withdrawn too. Unfortunately I don’t think it is the kind of thing that most people are going to personally react to in order to create the kind of public furore which will result in its withdrawal. But it should be withdrawn, because it is as misconceived as was the energy tax last year. Apart from the minister, the only Tory who has spoken for it so far -- that smiling member for Victoria-Haliburton (Mr. R. G. Hodgson) -- was really doing his level best to rationalize the irreconcilable, namely, the position that he agreed with in the select committee on economic nationalism and this bill and, hopefully, saying that there was nothing in conflict and that the government would move some time later to implement the full recommendations of that committee. I repeat, that was the supreme rationalization and nothing more.", "What is the purpose of this bill, Mr. Speaker? It seems to me one should perhaps focus on that for a moment. There’s no doubt about it that the purpose of the bill was this government’s gesture to Canadian nationalism. In fact, I now recall during the press briefings prior to the unveiling of the budget, and in the subsequent meetings in which me minister has had with various representatives of the business world and the trade unions, that he referred to this bill as “our expression of nationalism.” The protection of Canadian interests, the halting of the foreign takeover of Canada, has now become something which people from all parties support. All parties have to pay lip-service to it and this is this government’s lip-service to that particular clause.", "I was fascinated at the observation of the hon. member for High Park -- and I suspect with his capacity for getting inside information that he’s correct -- that, in the first instance, to make the thing logical, the proposal was that the bill was going to have a 50 per cent tax, but when that went to the cabinet it was killed; it was brought back with a 20 per cent tax and it was accepted.", "The simple fact of the matter is that if the government’s objective in this bill is to halt the further acquisition of Ontario lands by foreigners it simply will not do it. As has been pointed out, I think in very well chosen words, almost a slogan, by my two colleagues, the leader of the party and the hon. member for Wentworth, the only difference is Ontario is still up for sale but now it’s going to cost a little bit more.", "So the government has really fallen between two stools. It has set itself up an objective to halt this acquisition of land by foreigners but it has come in with a procedure which simply isn’t going to achieve it at all. The net result -- and this is what the supreme irony of it is, Mr. Speaker -- is that in the process it is, as a government posing as a champion fighting against the inflation forces, going to be accelerating those inflation forces by boosting land costs all across the Province of Ontario. That 20 per cent on all land that is going to be bought by foreigners will become a built-in figure adding to that cost of land, and as soon as the government begins to add it in there it will have that competitive value that will drive the land up to that level. So that, while posing as the champion of anti-inflation, the government is accelerating the inflation forces.", "Again, just by way of a brief digression, the irony of it is that this bill and its partner, the Land Speculation Tax Act, are again doing precisely the opposite of what presumably was the government’s objective. They are going to consolidate the inflation that has built up in such a scandalous fashion over the last year or so. They are sort of going to institutionalize it. It will now become part of the whole price structure of the nation and, because the Acts are themselves ineffective, they are going to add to the increased inflation in the instance of the land speculation tax and, in this instance, they are going to sort of nail on another 20 per cent by all those purchases by foreign interests.", "Mr. Speaker, clearly, that in itself is solid evidence as to why the bill should be withdrawn. However, what I wanted to draw attention to in the main body of the remainder of my remarks is what exactly the government turned away from in the report of the select committee. Here was a select committee that had 12 members on it, eight of whom were Conservatives, and all of them signed it, admittedly some with varying degrees of reservations with regard to various recommendations. But, generally speaking, everybody supported the general thrust of this bill, which was to halt the acquisition of Ontario by foreigners.", "Let me, for example, just put it on the record. It’s been referred to, but for those who perhaps pick up their information from only the record of Hansard, I think it is well that some of the recommendations be right there so that they can read them and see them in their stark, unqualified extent.", "Page 23 of the report, for example, dealt with foreign ownership of Ontario real estate. In reference to ownership of land by individuals, this is what it said:", "“The committee recommends, subject to recommendation 2, that all future transfers of legal or equitable, including leasehold, interest in real property in Ontario to individuals, directly or indirectly, be restricted to Canadian citizens and landed immigrants resident in Canada.”", "That’s pretty solid and unqualified. It came, I repeat, as a unanimous report of 12 members of the Legislature, two-thirds of whom were Tories. Why would the government bring in a bill which so clearly does not fulfil the recommendations?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Even the Minister of Housing recommended it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Even the Minister of Housing recommended it. Mr. Speaker, if you want to prohibit the foreign takeover of lands and you decide that you are going to use taxing as your mechanism for doing it, you have got to have a tax which is prohibitive. It is as simple as that. If you want to prohibit it, you have got to have a prohibitive tax. The proposition that a 20 per cent tax is going to be prohibitive is only a tax that is automatically going to be built into the price of land all across the Province of Ontario, as I have already indicated.", "And so the government backed off, if it is correct that it was considered at 50 per cent to begin with. It backed off and it went back to a 20 per cent which is aborting the whole objective and the whole professed purpose of the bill. But there was the recommendation that it backed away from.", "Let me go on now to point to the nature of the recommendation that was made with regard to corporate holdings of land. On page 37, there was a conclusion which reads as follows: “Having regard to all of the factors -- ” just le me interject there, Mr. Speaker. The report carefully considers a lot of counter arguments, a lot of consequences that might be something one should bear in mind. They didn’t simplistically and blithely come to a conclusion. They considered all of these consequences, and then they said in their conclusion:", "“Having regard to all of the factors, the committee has concluded that it would be desirable for future acquisitions of .land in Ontario to be restricted to corporations substantially owned in Canada.”", "What does “substantially owned in Canada” mean? We find out when we turn to the recommendations. I will read the first three of them without interruption so that they can stand there for posterity to be reminded once again:", "“1. The committee recommends, subject to recommendation 2, that all future acquisitions of land in Ontario, other than by individuals, be restricted to corporations or ventures not less than 75 per cent owned by Canadian citizens or landed immigrants resident in Canada.", "“2. The committee recommends that corporations or ventures less than 75 per cent owned by Canadian citizens or resident landed immigrants, who can establish that it is bona fide in the nature of their business to acquire land on a regular basis for real estate development or finance have the option of becoming 75 per cent owned by Canadian citizens or resident landed immigrants as a condition of being entitled to continue to acquire land during the period required to obtain a fair price for the corporation shares on the Canadian market.", "“3. The committee recommends that corporations or ventures less than 75 per cent owned by Canadian citizens or resident landed immigrants be entitled to obtain leasehold interest in land in Ontario on terms appropriate to their commercial needs.”", "What that means, Mr. Speaker, is simple and unqualified. The committee didn’t horse around. It didn’t play games. It came to the conclusion that this government was worried about the foreign takeover of Canada insofar as Ontario, its responsibility, is concerned and it came to a conclusion that it wasn’t desirable. So it makes a specific, unqualified proposal. And what does the government do about it? It waters down the proposal and comes in with a sort of a panty-waist alternative that simply isn’t going to achieve the objective at all -- not at all.", "How might they achieve this, Mr. Speaker? Before I leave this report, I think it would be interesting to draw attention to something that again was discussed a number of times in the post-budget debates with various people. On page 24 of the report in the recommendations, there is one that I suggest that the minister should take a look at, if indeed it is the government’s intention to do something about the extensive foreign holdings in Ontario at the moment as well as dissuade those foreigners who wish to continue to buy up.", "Recommendation 5 to be found on page 24 says as follows:", "“The committee recommends that municipalities in Ontario be empowered to levy a surcharge of up to 50 per cent of the real property tax otherwise applicable in respect of land ownership in Ontario not ordinarily resident in Canada.”", "The immediate reaction, like the reaction, for example, of the government when it found the proposal was going to be for a 50 per cent land transfer tax is, “How horrible. It’s confiscatory. It’s not fair.” But one can’t have it both ways. If the government wants to prohibit, it must have a prohibitive tax, otherwise it is not prohibiting." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "We have no right to do it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Pardon?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "We have to have the constitutional capacity to do it" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "What does he mean by the constitutional capacity?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "The committee decided the government did have it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "The committee decided the government had it and as anybody --", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Is the minister suggesting, for example, that the municipality wouldn’t have the right to put a 50 per cent surcharge on any land it chose?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I’m suggesting that in circumstances in which it became confiscatory when we are dealing with non-residents and with aliens, we are into an area which is grey. Counsel to that select committee as well as the best legal advice we have indicate it is dubious whether that’s within the constitutional competence of the provinces.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, all I’ve got to say to the minister who, for better or for worse, is now the minister on whom this bill is pinned, is that he has joined the flim-flam artists deluxe. He is posing; he is presenting this bill as a bill to do something respecting the integrity of Canadian nationalism; to do something to halt the takeover of lands by foreigners and presumably to regain it. Now, in effect, he is saying that to do it and do it effectively so that his objective would really be achieved is unconstitutional." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "No. On a point of order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "What? Let’s clarify this. I don’t object; he has the floor," ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "That is not what I am saying. I’m saying if we get into a confiscatory nature that’s another matter. We do have the capacity to tax real estate and that’s the approach we are taking. I’ll have more to say about that in my reply." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "I will just say to him that the committee considered it; he will have his chance later. I appreciate that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)", "text": [ "He’s as pusillanimous as they come." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "I’m looking forward to that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "I sought the clarification because I think it is well to see the further inconsistencies in the government’s position. To resort to the argument that to put on a tax which would be so prohibitive as to achieve the professed objective of the bill is unconstitutional just shows that his whole position is so riddled with inconsistencies that it’s untenable. He should withdraw.", "The point I wanted to make is that if the government was really interested, for example, in contributing to a more effective housing policy -- which, presumably, is one of the objectives of these land speculation bills and the land transfer tax and everything else -- here is a way in which it could have achieved its objective for this bill, by putting on at least a 50 per cent surcharge on the property tax. Then we would see that land would be returned to Canadians in a hurry and it wouldn’t be bought up by others. Presumably this is what it is seeking to do.", "At the same time, Mr. Speaker, the government would provide the municipalities with the moneys they need to service land so they could get more serviced lots and flood the market with available land for the construction of homes. This would do something to take the upward pressure off the market. That, again, I assume, is the overall hope of the government. But it is not doing it.", "In fact, all throughout, what the minister has done is walk away from firm, clear and valid recommendations and clear techniques for achieving those recommendations. He has come in with something which, as it has been pointed out to him many times already, simply will not work,", "I suggest to the minister that even if this isn’t the kind of bill which will produce a public furore reminiscent of the energy tax last year, he should at least be prescient enough to look ahead and to recognize the consequences a few months from now and try to persuade his colleagues to withdraw it. If we are not going to get the public furore outside, let’s have some enlightenment and common sense in here so that he will take the initiative himself." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Leader of the Op- position." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "One of the interesting things about the debate on this bill and the government’s statement with reference to it, is that all three parties are agreed that the ability of foreigners or non-residents to own property here should not just be controlled but should be removed.", "The government has chosen -- and the minister has reinforced its attitude through his interjections -- to use the undoubted powers of the taxation on property to impose what, according to government statements, is supposed to restrict and in fact stop any further foreign buying into the Canadian real estate market.", "This is, of course, a tremendous breakthrough in the attitude of the government. I can well recall putting this to the former Premier, Mr. Robarts, and his response was, “Well, surely you should have the right to buy property in Florida if you want. Therefore, we cannot interfere with the right of Americans or any other foreigners to buy property here.”", "Fortunately, that attitude has been lost by the governing party and the attitude expressed in the statement associated with this bill is directed toward not just controlling foreign ownership but stopping it.", "The second thing I want to say in this regard, Mr. Speaker, is that I agree with the other speakers who say that the government did have access to the legislative alternative of prohibition -- not using the tax base, but simply prohibiting non-residents from buying and acquiring tide to any further properties here.", "I, too, have examined carefully the recommendations of the select committee on economic and cultural nationalism. The member for Nipissing (Mr. R. S. Smith) and the member for York Centre (Mr. Deacon) were active members of that committee and had a role to play in the wording, I understand, of the recommendations that eventually were accepted unanimously by the committee.", "Now it may be the ministry’s wisdom that a prohibition by law would not stand up in court, but surely that should have been the approach to explain the attitude of the government and to put it forward strongly -- and let the government of Canada protest if it so chose. Obviously, it would then be tested in the courts.", "In my view, the government of Canada would not protest. As a matter of fact, it should move with similar legislation at the federal level, or at least co-ordinate the provinces in bringing forward this type of legislation.", "Mr. Speaker, I remember you paying careful attention to my remarks in reply to the Speech from the Throne. You may recall that on that occasion I put forward statistics associated with the huge increase in foreign ownership, not of recreation land and farmland, but of commercial properties between Oshawa and Burlington and particularly in the metropolitan area.", "The list could have gone on endlessly -- some of the people listening to my speech thought that it was endless in that regard -- and it is frightening that foreign capital is moving into Canada because they consider this a safe place for investment. They are not prepared to put it into a banana republic or perhaps another area of the world where their moneys and their investments will be invested at some risk. Because of the sureness of investment here, those people are prepared to accept a relatively low rate of return.", "For that reason, the 20 per cent imposition that would be brought forward under Bill 26 is not going to be the deterrent that the minister envisages. I believe it was the minister who said, “If 20 per cent isn’t enough, we will double it or make it as high as it has to be.”", "If the principle that the government wants to put forward is to prohibit the ownership of land in this province by non-residents, then this bill does not express it. In fact, it puts on a 20 per cent tax, which for most people might be prohibitive but which in the circumstances of international investment in real property is anything but prohibitive.", "In the present state of the market the tax can readily be passed on, and for the investors who are looking for something in which to put their huge pools of international capital, this 20 per cent will not be a deterrent, and this has been put before you, Mr. Speaker, quite specifically.", "In reference to the commercial properties, I didn’t for a moment want to say that in my view recreation and agricultural properties are not of equally great importance. On previous occasions, Mr. Speaker, I and my colleagues and others have brought to your attention the frightening rate at which our best recreational properties are being lost to foreign sale.", "As a matter of fact, I noticed the Premier’s special assistant, the former Attorney General (Mr. Bales), under the gallery just a few moments ago, and I specifically remember discussing in this Legislature a strip of some of the finest recreational property north of Sault Ste. Marie, several miles of lakefront, in which the only Canadian owner at that time was the then Attorney General himself. He may even -- since he’s so busy in Toronto -- have already passed that property on to some other owner.", "There is no doubt, Mr. Speaker, that when it comes to agricultural property, you being a farmer yourself and interested in the value of agricultural land, are as aware as I am that is the unnatural and dislocating pressures of foreign capital brought into the Province of Ontario for the express purpose of buying properties at any price -- the price has no significance whatsoever -- as long as the property can be acquired; and this 20 per cent tax is not in any way going to restrict that particular matter.", "Now, I will say to you, Mr. Speaker, that if the government in principle is saying that sale of our properties to foreign interests, at least to non-residents, must be stopped, then of course the principle of the bill is one that is supportable. But, obviously, the 20 per cent tax does not achieve that.", "We on this side support the recommendations made by the select committee, which were clear and entered into after careful research and apparently after extensive debate among the members of the committee. We feel that it is a sham that the Minister of Revenue, or those who make the financial policy were not persuaded to accept those recommendations.", "If it had to be tested in court, so be it; but surely a politician looking at the chances of such a test would see that it would not be contested by the government of Canada and that surely it is a provincial right so to legislate.", "It is regrettable that Bill 26 does not, in fact, state the principle that should be supported by all three parties; that, in fact, it could have been a breakthrough of tremendous proportions.", "The bill in its present form cannot be supported and we would hope that the minister is not only prepared to bring forward some amendments, as he has indicated that he would in this bill, but to put in the place of the operative clause the principle that, in fact, our property can no longer be purchased by non-residents." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The member for Ottawa Centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am very surprised in this debate that we haven’t heard a word from any of the Conservative members -- apart from the member for Victoria-Haliburton, who spoke on Friday. I think it speaks badly for the Conservatives and badly for this measure that there is not a single person, apart from the one I have mentioned, who is willing to defend the bill except the minister." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "And he did it pretty weakly with tongue in cheek." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "That’s right; and the minister is just simply a technician in these affairs. It reminds me of the debates that I had with the minister over regional government bills when he was an assistant to the Treasurer in the municipal field. At that time he would get up on things like the Haldimand-Norfolk bill, or the bills that established the regions of Peel and of Halton, and he would say: “Look, I am not responsible for the overall policy; that’s got to do with somebody else. I am simply here as a technician.”", "He was very clear in the introduction of this bill on Friday. I regret that I wasn’t here, but I read the debate. In that introduction, the minister said: “Well, we have got some changes to section 6 and to section 16. I have got a nice little piece of technical apparatus here; and here you are, a nice little piece of clockwork.”", "He is putting it on the table at the direction of the provincial Treasurer. It is the Treasurer who should be seeking to defend this bill, Mr. Speaker, and not the Minister of Revenue. As is well known, the Minister of Revenue -- and his predecessor, who is also sitting in the House -- simply comes forward and looks to the nuts and the bolts.", "Frankly, I really question whether the present Minister of Revenue is capable of trying to defend or comprehend the wider ramifications of this particular bill. He has not given us that evidence in the Legislature up until now and his --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "What about the principle of the bill? Order, please. We are talking about Bill 26." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "That’s right. On Bill 26, Mr. Speaker, his interventions up until now suggest at the very least a pusillanimous attitude toward any kind of innovation in the province.", "He’s saying, “Well, we can have a bit, we can fiddle around, but we can’t do anything meaningful in the taxing field, because that would be unconstitutional or discriminatory, or that wouldn’t be right, or the foreign corporations that provide funds to help the Conservative Party wouldn’t go along.”", "I don’t know what the reasons are. Possibly he might come clean on this and he might explain just why it is that the government has come in with such a piece of window dressing, a tax which is riddled with so many loopholes and a tax which just plainly isn’t going to work in the declared purposes that were given it in the budget.", "I wish that the Treasurer would speak in this debate, or for that matter, the hon. member for Peel South (Mr. Kennedy), who has left the House, the hon. member for Northumberland (Mr. Rowe), the hon. member for Carleton, the Minister of Housing, the hon. member for Humber (Mr. Leluk), the hon. Minister of the Environment, the member for Ontario South (Mr. W. Newman), or the hon. member for London North (Mr. Walker). None of those members is in the Legislature right now, Mr. Speaker. Not one of them.", "Yet these were the people in the Conservative Party -- two of them are now in the cabinet, two more are parliamentary assistants to ministers -- who unequivocally rejected the approach now being taken by the government. It seems to me they should either defend the flip-flop on their position if they have now changed their minds, or they should come into this Legislature and unequivocally tell the Minister of Revenue that they cannot go along, that they have analysed the question and that a total prohibition on foreign acquisition of real estate in the province is what is required for the kind of circumstances that we have today. They’re in an untenable position and they have been put there by the present minister, by the Treasurer and by the cabinet.", "It’s curious to me that the Minister of the Environment and the Minister of Housing, both of whom have a pretty direct concern with the land of the province, should have been participants in the cabinet when the decision to bring in this woebegone tax was made.", "I understand, Mr. Speaker, that the discussions that went on behind the scenes rather looked like this: A number of people in the government and among the civil servants advising the Treasurer told him that something had to be done. Their estimates, according to the budget, indicate that some $300 million minimum was flowing into the province every year in foreign real estate investment. It was probably much more since, presumably, one of the intentions of this particular 20 per cent tax, on the government’s reckoning, is that the amount of foreign acquisition will decrease. I assume that the minister believes that. If he doesn’t believe it then the tax is of course completely useless.", "But at any rate, it’s $300 million, $500 million, or maybe $1 billion a year flowing into Ontario real estate from Singapore, from Hong Kong, from Switzerland, from Germany, from the United States, from Britain and presumably -- now that there are so many billions flowing into the Middle East -- from the Middle East. If anything, the liability was that this amount was going to increase rather than not.", "The officials came there -- and I wish the minister would table some figures on their estimates -- and said, “Look, there’s a serious problem.” The Treasurer, who likes to think of himself as a red Tory, said, “Okay, we better do something,” and asked his officials, “Now what shall we do?” And the officials told him, in the time-honoured way of bureaucrats, “You have three options.” This is the way that officials do these things in cabinets. They give you an extreme which is tough, an extreme which is soft and ineffective and something in between. That’s the wav the officials try to direct government to do the things that the officials think would be effective.", "Now, knowing the way that the officials of this government work, it’s safe to assume that what they thought would be effective would probably be inadequate, because of the fact that they have been brainwashed and conditioned, inevitably and helplessly almost, by having to be in close juxtaposition with members of the Conservative government and cabinet for so many years." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. A. Grossman (Provincial Secretary for Resources Development)", "text": [ "Did the member say we brainwashed the civil service?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "I’m suggesting that it’s difficult for them to come up and offer the measures which they know to be adequate because of --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "They’ve been put down so often." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "-- the tolerance of the ministers for progressive social legislation." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "That’s hardly what he said." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "What’s that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "It sounds better since he fixed it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Okay, that’s fine." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Isn’t the member glad I gave him a chance to change the record?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "I appreciate the former Minister of Revenue’s intervention, Mr. Speaker. At any rate, as we understand it, there were the three options. One of them has been sketched in by the members of the select committee, and that was a prohibition on foreign acquisition of real estate in the province. The officials put that one forward as the hard option, because in their hearts they knew that, whatever the backbenchers said and whatever the Minister of Housing and the Minister of the Environment had said in committee, the cabinet wouldn’t buy it. This cabinet and this government are simply too much the handmaiden of private interests to stop foreign acquisition. They still believe that Ontario is for sale to anybody anywhere in the world.", "The second option that they put forward was that the tax on transfers of property to non-residents be a minimum of about 50 per cent. I’m saying that that is inadequate. If they had suggested that the transfer tax be a minimum of 100 per cent, then maybe they would have found the middle ground. At any rate, the middle ground that they suggested was a tax of 50 per cent.", "Then they came up with the soft option -- and it is the soft option that has been taken by the government -- that is, the transfer tax of 20 per cent on some foreign land acquisitions -- not all acquisitions, though; the number of exemptions is legion. And the minister, when he introduced the bill on Friday, indicated that the exemptions would be further increased and further widened by giving priority to mortgage lenders over the lien and by saying that any foreign investor who was willing to say that he was holding property temporarily for resale to Canadians upon development, would likewise be permitted to continue and not be interfered with by the tax.", "As far as the government is concerned, it doesn’t matter where a speculator comes from: if he’s eventually going to unload the property to a Canadian, then he will not be liable to the tax.", "What this means, very simply, is that most of the people who have been buying property in Canada will be put in a position where they can say: “Yes, of course, we are honestly developing this property. We therefore seek, and presumably will get, the waiver.” And after four or five years they will hand the property back to Canadians at a highly inflated price. The bulk of the speculative activity indulged in by foreigners will continue.", "It’s worth looking at the kinds of speculation or the kinds of investment that go on by foreigners in order to see if the government really has got to the root of the problem or whether the 50 per cent or 100 per cent tax -- that is, the tax that was rejected by this government -- might have had some effect.", "It staggers me, not only that the government rejected the conclusions of the select committee, but also that it is seemingly so unaware of the very sensitive analysis that was made by the select committee and submitted to the government, I believe, about a year and a half ago.", "I have no evidence -- and we haven’t heard from any of the Tory members, the ministers or anybody else -- to show that the government has done any of the research that was suggested by the committee in order to look into this problem further.", "The government, in the estimates given by the Treasurer, is telling us that a minimum of $300 million is going to be invested in Ontario by foreigners over the coming year, because that’s the revenue it expects to get from the tax. If the minister wants the calculations, the Treasurer has said that $60 million will be recouped from this tax, and that is 20 per cent of $300 million. That does not include, however, the exempt investment of developers who are foreign-owned, nor of foreign-owned companies who presumably will be given an exemption as well, according to what the budget has said.", "The select committee argued very strongly that there ought to be a thorough study of what was going on. But the government, in its budget, was unable to give any indication of what the true picture was. The minister acknowledges that he doesn’t know. His officials seemingly acknowledge that they don’t know either, because in the budget papers, where they discuss the various taxes, there is no attempt to estimate what the amounts of foreign investment have been, what the trends in foreign investment have been, or even to say what the amount of foreign investment in land and property in Ontario might have been in this current year and what it will reduce to, if it will be reduced at all, because of the tax. Nor is there any attempt to estimate how much of the foreign investment will be exempt and how much will be hit by the tax.", "We’re going into an area which is totally uncharted, despite the fact that a year and a half ago the select committee said: “Look, this is too important to be left to guesstimates and to Donald Kirkup and to people like Mr. Elliot Yarmon and others in the real estate industry who have been used to dealing with foreign real estate investors.”", "When you look at the report of the committee, Mr. Speaker, they mention a whole variety of means by which foreigners invest in Ontario real estate: wholly owned corporations; trusts; trust companies; joint ventures; equity or profit participation, investment in existing real estate companies, which incidentally won’t be covered by this particular bill; options, which in certain cases will but in other cases will not be covered -- for example, options in the shares of Canadian controlled real estate companies set up for the express purpose of investing in real estate; a variety of complicated contractual arrangements, and then of course developers, mortgage finance and land leasing companies.", "Then there are the questions of profit participation agreements which are reached by mortgage lenders who are putting in debt capital, but capital in which the grounds between debt and equity investment are much fuzzier than they were back in the days when the minister learned his law and his chartered accountancy. The lines are far fuzzier than they used to be and it is clear that those gradations and those technical problems have not been adequately anticipated in this particular bill. The loopholes are there for the high-priced tax lawyers and the high-priced accountants. They will make a very large amount of money in seeking and in finding means of evading the bill.", "The member for High Park has already given a very good example of a loophole, and that is in the case of companies which are set up with a very small amount of A shares which carry the voting rights and a very large quantity or foreign-owned B preferred shares to which most of the income will go. In these cases, the A shares will be handed to trustworthy Canadians who are willing to do the bidding of the foreign investors who hold the B shares, because they are receiving legal fees and that is simply the way the game happens to work.", "There is no provision in the bill against thin capitalization that is necessary in order to prevent that particular loophole being exploited. I see the minister is nodding his head. I know he is going to get up in the debate and say, “Look, we have to plug up the loopholes. We are aware of that and we will be doing that as time goes on.”", "What kind of commitment is that, if the minister and the Treasurer and the Treasury have only so recently converted to the idea of this bill that they come up with something that is quite thoroughly ineffective, not only on the grounds that the tax is too little but also on the grounds that the bill is technically offensive and objectionable and ineffective? The bill is not an adequate technical instrument even to do the things that the minister says it might want to do. As a technician he has failed, just as this particular bill is a failure as an instrument of social policy.", "The early indications from the minister, Mr. Speaker, are that he is going to be intent not on narrowing the loopholes but on widening the loopholes in this particular bill. I would like to ask a few questions about general policy, because I think that the alternatives which were discussed by the select committee and which are obviously available to the minister but which were rejected out of hand by the cabinet, that is, the alternative of a complete block to foreign equity investment in Ontario real estate, really was the course that ought to have been taken.", "I do not see what the constitutional problems were. The only constitutional problem that might have arisen would be a question as to whether persons who were not resident in Ontario but who were Canadian citizens would have been able to acquire Ontario real estate. It is a question worth posing as to whether Ontario wished to rule out Quebec residents, or Saskatchewan residents from acquiring or, for that matter, from dealing in Ontario real estate. But that could have been handled separately and if, in fact, Ontario had had a rule against non-residents acquiring real estate, then it could have established very easily a legal means by which Canadian citizens from other provinces could have continued to enjoy their rights.", "The example, I think, is Prince Edward Island, which the minister may know has an outright prohibition on people who are not islanders holding real estate of more than 10 acres. They have had to take this crisis move because of the peculiar circumstances they have." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "What the member means is they had and it has been overturned in the courts. It has been held ultra vires." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "That bill has been held ultra vires? All right, then we will find another means of doing it. In the meantime, if Ontario declares that that is to be its intention, there are two or three things that flow from that. In the first place, a large number of foreigners just back off, if the bill is genuinely ultra vires. I don’t believe that that kind of problem cannot be overcome. After all, it is the provincial government and not the federal government which has jurisdiction over the questions of property and civil rights. We nave the power to make the declaration on that.", "If the PEI legislation was judged to be discriminatory, then it seems to me to follow that this particular bill can be judged to be discriminatory as well. If, on the other hand, a tax measure is not judged to be discriminatory, but the PEI legislation was judged to be discriminatory, then the middle route proposed to cabinet by the officials of the Treasury could have been made to work.", "Let us suppose that 100 per cent tax was required on transfers of Ontario property to foreigners; there is no way in which that tax can be deemed to be confiscatory. It confiscates nothing. It is simply a tax on what the foreigner wishes to do. He pays $1 million for a property and he is required to pay $1 million in tax, and that is the beginning and the end of it. It does not prevent him from doing it; it just simply adds to the cost and reduces the return which he will get from that particular piece of business. I am sure that that particular tax would have been permitted, even if constitutional changes may be need in order to permit the PEI solution, which is one that we would prefer.", "A confiscatory tax is where, for example, a tax on income is levied at 90 or 95 or 98 per cent where, in other words, the individual reaps no return from his income. But this other kind of tax would not qualify. Where, for that matter then, is the dividing line? You cannot decide a dividing line, Mr. Speaker. You could argue that any tax which discriminates between a foreigner and a resident of Canada or a citizen is ultra vires on those grounds, because it discriminates against that particular fellow and therefore makes it more difficult for him to do business.", "Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that if more was known, if the government knew more about the market and about the reasons that bring foreigners into this market, they would realize that the present tax may shake out a few cottage owners, as people have said. But let’s take the situation of people in inflation-ridden countries with an unstable political environment who are looking for a safe haven for their money and are looking for some place where their returns are rather higher than, say, in Switzerland, where it is well known the returns that are paid are very low.", "If they are buying investment property in Ontario to hold, the additional 20 per cent tax that is being levied by the province is of very little import to them. Right now they are in a situation where the values of property are rising by 20 or 25 per cent a year. The return over time, therefore, that they are anticipating may be to double or triple their money or at least to keep pace with inflation on a worldwide basis. The fact that they have 20 per cent taken off the top at the beginning is of very little significance. The fact that their annual return is reduced by 20 per cent is also of very little significance because, as the minister knows, in certain cases the return they actually get on an annual basis may only be as little as one or two per cent. This is property which is being locked up for a very long term. That particular kind of investment isn’t affected.", "Then we get people who are dealing on a very short-term basis and who are coming in, developing the property and getting rid of it, presumably to Canadians. They are not affected because they will not be obliged to pay the tax. We get foreign-owned corporations which are buying land for industrial purposes. Again, they get a waiver from the tax; they are not affected. If anything, they may be more affected by the new screening mechanism of the federal legislation than they are by this particular tax.", "Ultimately we come down to a certain segment of the market, a few unfortunates who actually intend to move up here sometime because they want to get out of wherever they happen to live and find they may have to pay the tax because they aren’t yet landed immigrants. People buying residential recreational property will be affected and so will some people who were ill-advised and who were buying, say, for a period of between five and 10 or 15 years. They may be affected and a few of them may be shaken out of the market.", "Let’s look at this in a different way, though. The ministry says $300 million will be spent by foreigners on Ontario real estate in the coming year, maybe a bit more. The total increase and the yield from the tax expected by the government is of the order of $75 million and if that were all to be the result of foreign real estate, then $375 million will be spent by foreigners.", "Now, if we work it out -- if the average cost of a home, of a housing unit in Ontario, is about $35,000, that means 10,000 single-family or semi-detached housing units could be acquired by foreigners during the coming year. That’s a very substantial chunk and a very substantial contribution to the inflationary pressures that exist within the housing market.", "It means 20,000 apartment units, Mr. Speaker, 100 major highrise towers acquired by foreigners. That isn’t exactly easing the foreign speculators out of the market.", "Or it means 25,000 recreational properties, or 50,000 acres of development land at $7,500 an acre, which is the price being charged around major cities. Or if we want to go to the downtown areas of Toronto, Ottawa or Hamilton or other cities like that, it would be somewhere between -- let me see if I can work it out. Four hundred acres? That’s about, I think, 1.6 million ft of downtown property which can go into foreign hands, and will go into foreign hands quite cheerfully according to the minister and the ministry, despite this particular tax. That’s a helluva deterrent when that amount of urban real estate can still go into foreign hands.", "It just isn’t going to work. It’s simply an added cost of doing business, and as a number of speakers have said it will be passed on if the number of foreigners who are continuing to be active in our market is as great as the government seems to indicate. If this tax were going to be effective, and the yields from the tax would be miniscule and it would be only a few cottage owners and other people like that who were paying the tax, we would see a very great departure of foreigners from our market.", "There are some other points as well, Mr. Speaker, and these are maybe social points that I might make. One is to assess this particular 20 per cent land transfer tax and the loophole-ridden tax on speculative profits against the whole context of the government housing policy. We have argued that heavy taxes are needed on speculation, but always in the context of a general housing policy which puts forward supply measures as well in order to ensure that decent housing at reasonable cost is available to people across the province.", "The government doesn’t see it that way. It doesn’t see it that way at all. It is copping out on its public responsibility to ensure that adequate housing is on the way. It is copping out on its public responsibility to ensure that urban land is managed, to ensure that housing units come on stream at prices people can afford -- $30,000, $25,000 or $20,000 a unit. Stacked townhouses, all kinds of different mixes, are not becoming available.", "For eight months we get words from the ministry about the housing action programme; now we are told that over three years we may get an additional 10,000 units a year under that particular programme. But that only matches the number of housing units which will continue to be going into foreign hands if the figures being given by the ministry are to be believed about the amount of foreign investment that will continue. Foreigners will be buying as much real estate in Ontario as is being provided additionally to the market under the housing action programme.", "The budget provided a couple of taxes which were meant to be sexy politically. Yet when it came down to the nuts and bolts of what was being done to make sure that more lots were available, or to make sure that more housing was available, or to make sure that more people earning under $10,000 and $12,000 could rent or buy homes that they could afford, you find -- what? An $11 million subsidy for servicing; less than $20 million being provided for the housing action programme, a plan whose details we have yet to see; and discussion of an Ontario land corporation whose major impact will, it seems to be clear, be directed to long-term policy in areas like eastern and northern Ontario. There is nothing ensuring a massive programme of public land acquisition in order to ensure that objectives in land and housing policy can be fulfilled.", "The municipalities, Mr. Speaker, have told the minister, and told the ministry, that at least one-third or maybe one-half of urban development land should be publicly owned. There is no such commitment in the budget and no such commitment in this particular bill. The government is clearly still resting on developers to do its job of deciding the mix and kinds of housing that shall be developed. Not only that, but it’s saying there are not the Canadians to do the job and therefore it will leave it up to foreign developers to continue to play their role in our market.", "If we knew more about the role of these foreigners, Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that we might find they really don’t contribute very much at all. We might well find that much of the capital they supposedly bring into housing in Ontario is raised from domestic sources in the form of mortgages. We might also find that the foreign mortgage capital that’s coming into Canada, which is competing for a limited supply of building materials that are mainly locally produced and which is competing for a limited supply of land -- that again can t be imported to help the situation -- you would simply find that that foreign equity capital and that foreign mortgage capital, and the Canadian mortgage money which is going along with the foreign equity, is helping to hop up the market but is not contributing any additional housing beyond what we could contribute ourselves.", "That’s a very real possibility, Mr. Speaker. And yet foreign money is continuing to be invited into the country and into the province and is being levied a penalty in certain cases; and the penalty will then be passed on to Canadians who wish simply to have housing of their own.", "I’m questioning, Mr. Speaker -- and maybe the member for High Park and I aren’t totally at one in this -- I’m questioning whether its healthy to have a lot of foreign mortgage money coming into this country. I certainly question whether it’s healthy to have foreign equity coming into the country, when it is all competing for the scarce land around our cities and for scarce building materials.", "If you look at it, Mr. Speaker, and if the minister looks at it, he would find, among other things, that a great amount of foreign money has gone into commercial and shopping centre development, for purposes which frankly I can’t defend under a situation where rents are rising by 15 or 20 per cent; and a situation where housing is in desperately short supply, where both housing for purchase and for rental is becoming increasingly scarce in the urban Ontario market; and in a situation where housing starts are in fact decreasing rather than increasing. If that foreign money wasn’t going into commercial development, Mr. Speaker, then there would be more building materials available at more reasonable prices to go into apartments, to go into townhouses, to go into homes, to go into public housing, to go into co-operatives and all the other kinds of housing that we need in the province and we wouldn’t have such a crisis as we have right now.", "But the ministry, and the government, are sort of seized by this growth ethic. They cannot see that it may, in fact, be healthy to discourage some of the actors in the housing market and that those private people should be replaced by public people, municipalities, co-ops, non-profit organizations and the government itself in determining the kind of housing that should be built and where it should be built and what incomes it should be looking for.", "Now Mr. Speaker, when we get to the committee stage of this particular bill we will be looking at the loopholes in detail. I want to say something about one concern that I have here, though, and that is that there is nothing in this bill that prevents foreigners from continuing to acquire property in Ontario, and in fact from mortgaging in order to pay the tax.", "Now that’s one of the most incredible situations that I can think about. All they need to do is to tell the mortgagor that the market value of the land will be what they pay for it plus 20 per cent and they want a 90 per cent mortgage please; and the mortgagor will then proceed to pay 80 per cent of the tax that they have to pass on to the Ontario government if they don’t happen to find a way around the loopholes.", "There is nothing to stop that, Mr. Speaker, nor is there anything to put uncertainty into the heart of a foreign speculator or of his financial backer in the way of the lien that the tax represents. The tax is being given second status to any mortgage claims on the property, and that again undermines the minister’s claim that the ministry intends to stop or seriously deter foreign speculators from coming in. What they are really doing is trying to pick up a bit of dough and then put half of that amount into the housing action programme and other programmes.", "There is nothing about thin capitalization. There is nothing about investment in real estate companies. There is nothing about options on real estate companies. There are any number of devices that could be used in order to evade the tax.", "I just want to know why the government has copped out on this. I want to know why the member for Peel South isn’t going to speak on this particular bill -- maybe he is, I see him making some notes. I hope he does join us. Is he going to speak on this bill?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. D. Kennedy (Peel South)", "text": [ "I am not making notes.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "All right, because there is only one member of the select committee from the Tory benches who has gotten up and he said, well he’s got infinite faith in the government that some time, in the fullness of time, they might adopt the recommendations of the select committee. Only one member, the other seven have sat there mute. What’s that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Maybe the hon. member doesn’t believe in repetition, as the member for Ottawa Centre does." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "No, I am sure he would have something fresh and original to say in the debate, either why he disagrees with the government or why he has changed his position so radically and so completely --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Kennedy", "text": [ "No position has changed." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "-- from being in favour of a ban on foreign acquisition to coming up with a namby-pamby, Mickey Mouse piece of legislation which is riddled with loopholes, which will not work, which will increase the cost to Canadians, which will not deter the long-term investors from abroad who want to hold our property for 10 or 15 years and which simply is not an effective answer to Ontario’s needs.", "Those needs are that we bring down the price of land and that we provide housing for Canadians, for Ontario residents, at prices that they can afford. It just isn’t here in the tax. It isn’t here in the other tax. It isn’t here in the budget, and as far as we are concerned we don’t know where it is in the government. We haven’t heard when they are going to come up with some effective answers in the field of housing or of land." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Do any other hon. members wish to speak to this bill? If not, the hon. minister." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have lost count of the number of members who addressed themselves to this bill, but I will endeavour to touch on all the points they have raised. To begin with, may I just observe what I think the principle of the bill may be. I want to talk to the principle --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "“May be?” Doesn’t the minister know?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Yes, indeed I do know the principle of the bill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Kennedy", "text": [ "If you listen, maybe you’ll get to learn something." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "It’s a part, and it’s a very vital part, of our government’s attack on the costs of land and the costs of housing, the very points the member for Ottawa Centre was touching on.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "It is an attempt to discourage foreign money from pressing up the land prices that are, therefore, affecting in the same direction --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)", "text": [ "By adding 20 per cent how is the minister stopping foreign investment?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "-- the price of land and houses. It’s an indicator -- I want to emphasize this, and it should be noted -- it’s an indicator of the way the government is thinking with respect to our economic and cultural goals --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "We’ll go along with that one." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "That’s certainly a mouthful." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Foreign ownership of our land and of our heritage has to be a matter of major concern to all of us." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Does the minister agree with it or does he disagree with it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "The bill is not our intended answer to the select committee on economic and cultural nationalism. It is not intended to be the whole of our anti-inflation measures either. Contrary to the suggestions made by some hon. members, it is not a fraud. It isn’t bogus legislation. It isn’t bad. And it isn’t intended to discourage foreign loan investments here, as opposed to foreign equity investments which it is intended to discourage in respect of land." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "By how much?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "I might just mention briefly, Mr. Speaker, some other portions of our programme, of which this bill is a part: The housing action programme, the Land Speculation Tax Act and other potential incentives -- and I might put “incentives” in quotes -- to get serviced lots on the market for dwelling unit construction." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "They are all as Mickey Mouse as this measure." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order please." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "I want to touch on a few of these matters in somewhat greater detail.", "You know, Mr. Speaker, we are supposed to be talking about the principle of this bill, but so much of the debate from members opposite has surrounded the select committee report, which really doesn’t get to the principle of this bill in any great detail.", "I feel, though, that I should direct some of my comments to the select committee report on economic and cultural nationalism. That interim report, along with others, has been received by the government -- they have been coming in over the last few months. As we announced earlier this month, the justice policy field committee and the social development policy field committee, co-ordinated by H. Ian Macdonald who is now special assistant to the Premier and who until April 9 was the Deputy Treasurer of the province, are studying these reports and we expect to have their views and their reports by early fall.", "I would expect that, in the course of their studies of the recommendations of the reports, they will be looking at the question of what percentage by way of a tax might or might not be construed as confiscatory. And I note the views of the member for Ottawa Centre on the matter. He says it might be held to be confiscatory. Well I would suggest to him that it might be held to be confiscatory, because if it were so large that it was prohibitive, then a court could well say that we were attempting to do directly, by way of tax, what we cannot do indirectly under our present constitution. He’s talking about amending the constitution --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Surely if it is the government’s intention to stop foreign ownership, it could do that directly." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Well If the hon. member had been interested in this debate he would have got into it earlier. But he has not participated in this debate and I’d appreciate it if he would let me carry on with my remarks." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "I will interject when I deem it is proper and appropriate." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "He can only do that with permission of the Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Subject always to the Speaker --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "I would suggest to the hon. member that there are some very serious constitutional issues. The select committee itself recognized the constitutional problem and it recommended that we press on anyway." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Yes; some press!" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "What they said -- and may I read from page 45 I think it is, under item 10.2:", "“Specifically, and in relation to the committee’s conclusions with respect to individual ownership of land, the committee understands that the scope of the federal jurisdiction in relation to naturalization and aliens is in some doubt on the basis of jurisprudence to date, and particularly in its interface with exclusive provincial jurisdiction in respect of property and civil rights in the province and matters of a local and private nature.", "“The committee recommends that the government of Ontario take the position that legislation along the lines proposed by the committee is unambiguously in relation to property and civil rights in the province and matters of a local and private nature.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "I say the minister can do it directly; just what he said he couldn’t do." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Can’t you keep that member in order, Mr. Speaker?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "In other words, what they were saying was, “Press on with anti-foreign legislation with respect to real estate,” and to quote the old expression, “damn the torpedoes.”", "Frankly, I would observe that I have some sympathy for this and some of my competent colleagues have some sympathy for this. Pass a bill banning or restricting foreign real estate holdings and let it get tested in the courts, because that is what they were suggesting. In fact I as much as said this in the press conference preceding the budget debate during the lockup on Tuesday, April 9 last." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Did the minister fight very hard in the cabinet?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "What did he say: “I have sympathy for it?”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "He seems to have more sympathy for the foreign speculators." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "But there is another side to this. Have members thought of what turmoil would be created in investment circles? What would this do to Ontario and Canada? In fact it would do us no good at all. As I mentioned to the hon. member for Ottawa Centre, Prince Edward Island tried a version of this and it was held ultra vires.", "My colleague, the Minister of Housing, and the members for Victoria-Haliburton and Humber express very well their reservations about such hasty action in this area.", "Let me read, for the benefit of hon. members present and for Hansard, from page 59 of the same interim report on “Foreign Ownership of Ontario Real Estate.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "If one doesn’t like the majority, well read the minority one." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "If the member doesn’t like facts, then he doesn’t have to read the majority one." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Why doesn’t the member hang around, he might just hear this for the first time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "It’s too much for me." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "He doesn’t want to be confused with the facts." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "He has made up his mind, he doesn’t want to be confused with the facts.", "My colleague said:", "“In our view, a nation is firmly rooted in its history, its people and its primacy over the land which it occupies. Ownership of Canadian soil by our citizens and those who have committed themselves to this country by immigrating to it can only strengthen the nation. Perception by the young of the Legislature’s resolve to retain ownership for them of their natural heritage will impress on them the fact that government is for them and their future as well as for the here and now.", "“Having come to the above conclusion on personal and philosophical grounds, we readily admit that the nature and breadth of the committee’s inquiries was limited by time, money and depth of staff. We do not wish to minimize the dedication, skill and sheer hard work which the staff has devoted to the studies carried out on behalf of the committee.", "“It is a fact, however, that we are not fully informed of the recommendations, particularly as they apply to the commercial and industrial use of land. Nor can it be said with any confidence that the committee has complete data as to the complex international money market or the manner in which our recommendations may affect this very delicate system.", "“We are, therefore, in a dilemma. While accepting the report and its recommendations we are concerned that their immediate” [and they put ‘immediate’ in italics] “implementation by the government could have unanticipated implications at some time in the indefinite future. It would be irresponsible on our part to satisfy our personal and philosophical leanings by urging early implementation of the recommendations without knowing the long-range economic price which may have to be paid by the people of Ontario.", "“It may very well be that, once known, the price will be low in relation to the benefits. If the government can satisfy itself on that point, then there is, in our opinion, no other reason to delay the implementation of all recommendations.”", "Now I think they have taken a very responsible approach to this very interesting subject." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "If the minister had accepted that argument he wouldn’t even have imposed the tax at all; he would be so afraid of doing anything to interfere with the market." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson (Victoria-Haliburton)", "text": [ "Oh ridiculous. The member is being ridiculous." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "There is a lot to be said for the recommendations but as my colleagues pointed out in the section which I have just read -- and which I see the hon. member for Riverdale will now have to read in Hansard -- they recommend, and their view was, that we approach it very cautiously.", "The government concluded, my colleagues and I concluded, that we could not, at this time, follow the course of action the committee recommended. We feel that we must await the outcome of the studies when reported on by Mr. Macdonald and by the policy field committees in the early fall.", "However, in the meantime we just can’t sit around on our hands. We can’t sit idly by, as my colleague the Treasurer said in his budget statement. In reference to this, the member for Scarborough West (Mr. Lewis) said last Friday -- let me read at page 1083 of Hansard. He said: “And then what flows” -- I think he meant follows -- “within the budget statement” -- that was following my Treasurer’s comments." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)", "text": [ "Well it was a committee report with dissents." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "The member says:", "“In the next half-dozen paragraphs there’s a clear implication, Mr. Speaker, that somehow the recommendations embodied in the select committee’s report are reflected in the tax policy announced by the provincial Treasurer. And this report, this statement in the budget, is a very clever little piece of duplicity in itself. What the budget might have said, to be honest, is that the select committee on economic and cultural nationalism analysed this subject, investigated it thoroughly, made a number of recommendations and, ‘we, the cabinet, have decided to repudiate every single recommendation the select committee made.’”", "What arrant nonsense. Our colleagues have pointed out that the select committee did not have access to all the information necessary. They have pointed out that there was much more study which had to be done; and that’s precisely why we wish to now take some intermediate step." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "But the committee’s report is more important than the dissents." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "That’s right. That didn’t stop the government from cooking up a tax in two weeks and putting it in. The minister doesn’t know anything more about the Ontario land market than the committee did a year ago." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Just to clarify the point of just what was said by my colleague, the Treasurer, let me read to members -- it’s appeared in Hansard a few times and the member for Scarborough West quoted the first paragraph himself; but he quoted that paragraph out of context and then went on to draw the illogical conclusion to which I have just made reference." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "He didn’t quote it out of context. He read the whole budget statement." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Let me read the entire three paragraphs." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "The minister doesn’t need to read the whole three paragraphs. We’ve all listened to it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "My colleague commented as follows.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "In reference to this bill, the Land Transfer Tax Act:", "“In examining the problem of rapidly rising prices for real estate in Ontario, it has become increasingly apparent that large-scale acquisition of land by non-residents of Canada is a significant factor. The matter of control of non-resident ownership of Canadian land is a current constitutional issue which has not been fully resolved. The problem has been studied, however, and has been reported on recently by Ontario’s select committee on economic and cultural nationalism.”", "That part the member for Scarborough West quoted. Then he went on to draw his conclusions that the following six paragraphs negated everything we had just said. Let me read the members the next two paragraphs which follow:", "“The government of Ontario recognizes that positive action on this matter is required now in order to maximize Canadian ownership of our real estate.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "We consider this to be negative action." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "The Treasurer said:", "“The government has decided, therefore, to take interim steps using the instruments at its disposal. Accordingly, I am proposing to increase substantially the land transfer tax on purchases of land by non- residents of Canada to 20 per cent from 6/10 of one per cent effective at midnight tonight.”", "And a 33 times increase in tax is not peanuts. It’s a very significant increase." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur)", "text": [ "One small step for mankind." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "That, I hope, sets the record straight." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "It is peanuts when you can avoid it most of the time." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "What about the other programmes?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "By the way, is the minister satisfied it is direct taxation within the province?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "In the housing action programme mv colleague the Minister of Housing is taking steps to streamline the plans administration branch operations." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Oh yes, oh yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "He signed the report of the select committee." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Yes, and he also happens to have been one of those whom I have just quoted in the select committee report." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Yes, he certainly streamlined it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "And he is going to have more to say on his programmes in the weeks ahead." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "We have the land speculation Tax Act --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "-- which I suggest is a disincentive to hold on to land. Its an incentive to get it out into the market, either with finished dwellings or with covenants from builders who will themselves construct within a period of, say a year.", "I might mention one other thing: By the end of this year, my ministry will have complete information, on a print-out basis through our computers, of every serviced but undeveloped lot in Ontario. It would therefore be possible -- and the government is looking at the possibilities --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "And the government will sell copies to everyone who wants a house. Is that right?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "-- to consider certain incentives to get these lots into the housing stream either by the method suggested by the select committee -- and we might note this could be applied by way of, say authority to municipalities for certain tax surcharges on the basis of non-residency -- or it could be done simply on the basis of a serviced, undeveloped lot.", "These are some further elements that form part of our entire programme towards getting more lots on the market and hopefully, therefore, with supply getting closer to demand, helping to depress prices, and in addition making more land available for housing.", "So we have three or four arrows in our quiver as we take aim at the elusive spectre of land speculation --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Did the minister say he has arrows in his quiver?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "None of these should be expected to do it alone, but we believe that together they will accomplish this task." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "The yeoman of the cabinet is drawing his bow on Ontario’s housing problem, eh?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "And we think we would be derelict in our duties if we didn’t undertake it now, rather than wait until the fall. We just can’t afford to wait until then." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Has the minister any idea how many serviced but undeveloped lots there are in the province?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "There are quite a number." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Has the minister any idea? Has he any estimate?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "The question of whether the 20 per cent tax would be reflected in the sale price has also been raised by a number of members opposite. We don’t think so, and there are two reasons for this.", "The first is that in the case of the 20 per cent tax on non-resident builders who undertake to develop and resell to Canadians or to Canadian residents, then the tax is deferred without interest. On that basis, then, there is no reason for any potential cost of this 20 per cent to be borne in the resale price." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "It has to be paid sometime." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "The only instance I can think of in which that philosophy might apply would be where a corporation deemed to be a non-resident under the Act sold a completed dwelling to a non-resident, in which event not only would the 20 per cent presumably be included in the sale price, but the non-resident purchaser of the dwelling would pay another 20 per cent on top of the original 20 per cent, for a total surcharge of some 44 per cent. That would be a real disincentive to the sale of that completed dwelling to a non-resident." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "But what about a purchase by a non-resident for investment and then the renting of the accommodation? Will that not be reflected in the rent that is paid?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Well, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest to the hon. member for Riverdale, who had his opportunity to speak on Friday and didn’t use it --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "I didn’t have my opportunity on Friday, thank you." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "-- that he might withhold some of those questions. I will endeavour to answer them when we are in committee, and I’ll be happy to explain the sections to him. I am sure he’ll understand them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Thank you." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. Gisborn (Hamilton East)", "text": [ "He can still speak this afternoon, if he wishes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "I still wish to speak this afternoon." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Now there is another reason --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "If the minister knew something about the bill he wouldn’t have to be so sensitive." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "The member for Riverdale, with the unanimous consent of the House, would be prepared to speak now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "I will save all the arrows in my quiver until committee." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "The second reason, Mr. Speaker, and I think it’s even more important, is that the best economic advice we can get tells us in cases such as we have with land in Ontario, where demand exceeds supply -- and this applies to any commodity where demand exceeds supply, but I’m speaking specifically in reference to land -- the price is established not by the cost of the article but by the demand." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "The chairman of the Bank of Montreal said that the other day." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "One can manipulate demand and supply." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Contrary to the views expressed by the economist from Wentworth and the economist from Sudbury East and a few other instant economists we’ve had around here from time to time, a 20 per cent factor then is not reflected in the sale price; it would simply be a further profit to be made. It is a disincentive in this case. Let me clarify that it’s a disincentive to a foreign investor to go into this market with an additional markup of 20 per cent on his cost, which he will not be successful in reflecting in the sale price." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "He will be able to reflect it in the sale price." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "It will be part of his cost of acquisition, but it will not adversely -- upwardly -- increase the sale price. In fact, it will detract from the demand and hopefully, will depress the basic market value." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "There is no way it will." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "No. I recommend that the minister studies the theory of oligopoly." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Except that he doesn’t know what that is." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "The costs of these lands are not influenced by market price. With our other measures we think it will help to stabilize the real estate market, not drive it up." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "Stabilize. We all know what a stable is." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Who is giving the minister his economic advice?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "The hon. member for Wentworth has just asked an interesting question. I have access to very good economic advice from within the government, probably from the best economists in the land." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Like the Treasurer." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "They have made an awful error this time." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Let me just add this." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "They are not the problem." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. W. Hodgson (York North)", "text": [ "Where did the member for Wentworth get his?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "I get my economic advice from Marion Bryden, the same place as the member gets his. It is good advice. She didn’t advise this." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "I’m sorry. Am I interrupting?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Section 22 of the bill refers specifically to the 20 per cent non-resident tax. I’ve been turning over in my mind whether there wouldn’t be some merit in permitting some flexibility, by regulation, to adjust that figure upward, in case we saw, when we monitor this Act and its effect over the next few months, whether or not the 20 per cent is reaping in a tremendous revenue to the province but not deterring foreign investments." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "I know of no tax that can be levied by regulation in this province." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "It would be interesting to see what the thoughts of the House would be on something of that sort." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Just trust us!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Just raise it to 100 per cent and the minister may get our support" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Pass a general Act that we will tax whatever we want and well tell members in regulations. What an idea that is!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "We cannot allow the government to tax by regulation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "They don’t need a budget; they just pass one Act." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "As to specifics, I am sorry the member for Kitchener is not in his seat at the present time. He asked a number of pertinent questions that were on the subject of the bill, contrary to so many that were not.", "He asked about a lien review procedure up to Sept. 30. We do have that procedure but that is only with respect to liens that will accrue from and beginning April 10 last until the date of proclamation of the Act." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "The review procedure will go on, as we look over those various transactions, until Sept. 30.", "The question arose of whether the bill might increase the price of vacant land. I think I dealt with that one, but I would just point out to him and to his colleagues here in the House that, whether we are dealing with vacant land or not, we are really dealing with the matter of non-residency and not the nature of land, whether it’s vacant or whether it’s developed.", "He asked if the tax is a cost of doing business for income tax purposes, and as far as I can ascertain the answer to that question is yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "How did the minister ascertain that? The federal government has not given any such indication." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "He asked if vendors may be anticipated to hang on to land." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "I would say yes, that could be. If so, then perhaps that’s because of a lack of non-resident buyers. If that is the case, I’d suggest that maybe the bill is doing the job we want it to do.", "Now he asked also, could my ministry track down foreign sources which act through Ontario agents? Well I would say that in some cases such foreign sources might be able to escape if the nature of their transaction is suppressed. But, quite honestly, I would expect that the number of false affidavits would be few." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Can the minister explain why?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "I want also to emphasize once more that we are not trying to discourage foreign investment by non-residents for development purposes or in any other sense. He had questioned that one, as I recall.", "He talked also about accountants wanting precision so they would be able to identify the loopholes. Perhaps in answer to the hon. member for Downsview I’d say that is sort of the opposite side of the coin. I like a little flexibility so that the minute we find one I can move in and plug it up." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Yes, with or without the Legislature; preferably without." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Well if the Legislature is in session, then fine. But if the Legislature is not in session we could have some difficulties." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Surely the minister is not serious about taxing by regulation?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "He is not really?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Is that government policy?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "He just wants to tax by regulation?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "The hon. member for High Park raised a number of points. He talked about false affidavits, how easy it would be, the minimum fine of $50, the maximum of $1,000. Let me point out to him section 122 of the Criminal Code, with which he may not have been familiar since he wouldn’t have had any personal involvement with it. It imposes a penalty of up to 14 years imprisonment for knowingly making any false affidavit, and I think that ought to be enough to discourage some people.", "I think it was he who also mentioned that the mortgage market had dried up utterly as a result of this bill, that foreign investments through the lending process were simply stopped dead, taking no steps whatever pending whatever developments they thought might occur up here.", "I had my staff check this afternoon and I’m advised that as recently as this afternoon the Toronto Real Estate Board had no indication of mortgage money shortage attributable to this bill. They do indicate there may be some problems arising because of the Bank of Canada’s recently announced interest rate, but that if there are any doubts in that area they arise through that bank action and not through the steps we have taken.", "I had indicated very early, following the introduction of the bill, that the matter of a final order of foreclosure being a very clear loophole we had plugged it. In other words, we had not provided in the bill that a final order of foreclosure taken by a non-resident mortgagee would give him title to the land.", "The reason was that that would be a very clear loophole through the Act if we were to allow the mortgage process to be used for the basis of acquisition of land by a non-resident.", "It became apparent, though, that some lenders were a bit concerned about this matter, and we will be issuing a statement. It is in preparation now. It will make it abundantly clear that where the ministry is satisfied the mortgage under foreclosure did not in any way arise through a collusive arrangement with the mortgagor in order to permit the mortgagee to acquire title to the property via the foreclosure route, we would then waive the tax.", "When I wrote to every member of the legal profession under date of April 9 -- the letter was mailed at 4 o’clock that afternoon at the same time as the budget address was going on -- I added this addendum to the references to the Land Transfer Tax Act, and I quote, just finishing off the last part of the sentence:", "“... for a final order of foreclosure of the equity of redemption under a mortgage, where it is established to the satisfaction of the minister that such order is not part of a collusive arrangement to avoid the tax.”", "Now that, hopefully, had gotten to every practising solicitor in Ontario. As I say, I did have one call and I believe that was clarified. We certainly do not expect to have any difficulties; and certainly I would not believe the mortgage market had dried up.", "Mr. Speaker, in conclusion --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "What about the amount of foreign investment before tax?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "-- may I just observe that as usual the official opposition seems to be on both sides of this issue?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "If the minister would listen he could comment sensibly." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Although they have now indicated they don’t propose to support it, originally their leader said that they would." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "He said no such thing!" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "I couldn’t tell which side of the --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "He said no such thing; the minister is deliberately misleading the House and he knows it!", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "-- fence the hon. member for Kitchener was on because he didn’t say." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "The minister is deliberately misleading the House!" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "But I noted the observations by the hon. member for York Centre -- he was vehemently opposed -- and frankly they surprised me, Mr. Speaker. Recognizing that a 20 per cent disincentive to foreign investment in the real estate field is then going to be a greater incentive to those foreign investors to put their money, that’s floating around looking for a nice safe place to land, that those foreign investors might be far more likely now to put their money into the stock brokerage equity investment field, I’m astonished that the hon. member for York Centre, ex-stockbroker that he is, would have been so perturbed by this bill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. H. Worton (Wellington South)", "text": [ "Don’t believe it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "And yet he seemed mainly opposed -- as I read his remarks in Hansard -- he seemed mainly opposed because it didn’t appear to implement fully the recommendations of the Select Committee on Economic and Cultural Nationalism. And of course I think I’ve made it abundantly clear that we’re doing what we can at this time." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "How’s he doing?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Well maybe by now he’s had a chance to see the light, I don’t know.", "As for the NDP, well I guess they’re wholly predictable. They certainly are more predictable than the official opposition. Because after all, they’re opposed to everything. They opposed the Niagara Escarpment legislation --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "That’s a helpful remark; that’s a really helpful remark." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "They opposed the parkway legislation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "We are talking about the principle of this bill." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "They opposed the planning and development legislation. They opposed every one of my --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "We are talking about the principle of this bill. Stick to the bill!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "We’re opposed to the way the government is running the province. It’s doing a bad job. It’s trying to --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "It’s none of these things. This legislation by this government is an honest attempt, by constitutional means, to put a damper on the pressure of foreign moneys in this market --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Three hundred million a year is dampening? Nonsense!" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "-- to do what we could not otherwise do by other courses of action, whether recommended by the select committee or not --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Utter rot." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "The government will allow a third of a billion in foreign money to come in --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "We will constantly monitor the effect of this legislation and its companion legislation over the next few months." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "The government doesn’t know what’s happening there now." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "We will inspect the affidavits that are filed." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "We will inspect the records and we will be keeping records over the next few months. If it appears this legislation has loopholes, we will plug them as swiftly as we possibly can -- either by regulation or by amendments to this legislation later on this session, or possibly in the fall." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Yes, or by regulations." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "They have left a lot to plug." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the principles are sound and frankly they deserve support from all sides, from all members who are anxious to see that our natural heritage, our land of this province, is preserved for the maximum benefit of all residents of Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Rot!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The motion is for second reading of Bill 26.", "The House divided on the motion for second reading of Bill 26, which was approved on the following vote:", "" ] }, { "speaker": "Clerk of the House", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the “ayes” are 48, the “nays” are 30.", "Motion agreed to; second reading of the bill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Shall the bill be referred to committee of the whole?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Committee of the whole House." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Committee of the whole House." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is there any possible reason why this bill and its companion bill could not go to a committee outside of the Legislature?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "There is no point of order. The minister has the privilege of determining which committee the bill should go to." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "It was admitted, though, Mr. Speaker, that there are a lot of loopholes in the bill and it should be open to that kind of discussion." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I’m sorry, there’s no point of order." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Clerk of the House", "text": [ "Notice of motion No. 1 by Mr. Young.", "RESOLUTION: That the government of Ontario set provincial standards to control the installation and maintenance of fire extinguishers in all buildings except private residences and that a commissioner be appointed to supervise and enforce these standards." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. F. Young (Yorkview)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, resolution No. 1 on the order paper really grew out of correspondence which was sent by a gentleman in Oshawa, by the name of James Gorman, who wrote a letter to the Attorney General, to the Leader of the Opposition and to this party, in connection with a problem with respect to fire extinguishers. Mr. Gorman spoke to me about this subsequently, after I called him, and provided me with a good deal of material, some of which I had not seen before.", "I might say that Mr. Gorman has been a salesman for the Levitt Co. for some years and now has his own company which is having some difficulty because he is too concerned with safety. He is having some difficulties with competitors which I will out- line later." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please. I am sure the hon. member has difficulty in making himself heard." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)", "text": [ "We are listening." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Young", "text": [ "I might say, Mr. Speaker, that the National Building Code report dealt with the matter of fire safety to some extent. At the present time, the Ontario fire code report is coming, when the committee is finished. That should be complete within a reasonable time. But we do know that present provincial standards do require fire extinguishers in every building other than private residences.", "The Industrial Safety Act, for example, requires that the owner of an industrial establishment shall provide adequate fire protection and equipment, lays down rules as to the inspection of these bits of equipment every month, and prohibits extinguishers containing carbontech and other dangerous substances. Service stations, nursery homes, school buses and other such items are covered under the regulations. The Fire Marshals Act also gives the fire marshal certain powers to confer and to assist in setting up local bylaws. He also has the power to require that these bylaws be enforced when they are passed.", "The Fire Marshals Act also empowers the Lieutenant Governor in Council to make regulations under 26(e), “providing for licensing and regulating the manufacture, sale, servicing and recharging of fire extinguishers.” Unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, no regulations have ever been written under this provision." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur)", "text": [ "Shame." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Typical." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Young", "text": [ "The type of fire extinguisher to be used in any given place and the kind of servicing of such equipment has been pretty well left to the insurance industry and the local fire departments. The insurance industry seems more interested in sprinkling systems and major items of fire protection and leaves the fire extinguishers to the local fire department assuming, not always correctly, that they make sure the extinguishers are always in good working order.", "The Canadian Underwriters Association has a couple of very useful booklets which I have here, Nos. 10 and 10A, setting out what types of fire extinguishers should be used in certain situations. They give general principles for the location of such equipment and how it should be recharged and maintained. But these rules are not enshrined in legislation and so are not enforced.", "As I pointed out, the regulations possible under the Fire Marshals Act have never been written. That’s what this resolution is all about today.", "As I see it, there are four main problems in connection with present practices in respect to fire extinguishers. They may not be in the right place. They may not be of the right type for that location. They may not be properly maintained. The people working nearest them may not know how to operate them.", "The first of these need not take much discussion. Most fire extinguishers are placed according to the instructions of the Canadian Underwriters Association. Sometimes, however, they do get placed at the convenience of the builder or so that they don’t detract from the decor of the building. Sometimes, too, in places like school buses, they are hidden to prevent theft.", "Many smaller communities have no inspectors in the local fire department trained in the location of such equipment and standards vary from community to community. The standards outlined in CUA 10 need to be made universal in this province and local people should be trained in their implementation.", "Second, in selecting the right type of fire extinguisher for a particular location, the purchaser is often at the mercy of commercial interests more keen on sales than adequate protection. There is a very wide variety of extinguishers, some based on water under various kinds of pressure; others have soda acid, carbon dioxide, ammonium phosphate and other chemicals. In looking over the whole lot of them, the building owner may seek the cheapest type of extinguisher rather than the most effective one for his situation.", "The Canadian Underwriters Association lists four classes of fires. These classes are as follows: Class A fire, ordinary combustible materials, such as wood, cloth, paper, rubber and many plastics; class B, those inflammable liquids, gases and greases; class C fires, which involve energized electrical equipment where the electrical non-conductivity of the extinguishing media is of importance; and class D fires, in combustible metals, such as magnesium, titanium and others.", "Class A fires, of course, can be handled by water extinguishers. But this will cause some water damage while extinguishing the fire. Water in class B fires -- that is grease and oil -- will only spread the blaze. How often we have heard of grease fires in kitchens exploding in this way.", "The older types of extinguishers were the best available when they were first sold, but there is no reason to keep selling them when more efficient ones are now available. The modem ammonium phosphate extinguishers, for example, will serve for all A, B, and C class fires. They will handle five times as much fire as water will and do no water damage.", "It’s a strange anomaly that the commercial driver’s manual issued by the Transportation Safety Association of Ontario uses a 1954 fire extinguisher standard and recommends types of extinguishers good only for B and C class fires. The majority of automotive fires also involve class A fires. Only multi-purpose, dry chemical extinguishers should be recommended, as they now are in many states south of the border.", "Builders of apartments, too, often install the cheaper soda acid extinguishers which should be emptied and recharged every year. The building is sold and the new owner may not be aware of what needs to be done; or he may not care about recharging as long as the extinguishers look all right.", "I understand that the Ontario government is now in the process of converting all its extinguishers to the A, B and C type as replacement is required. That’s a good move and it should be universal in Ontario.", "Legislation, or the writing of adequate regulations under the present Fire Marshals Act, is needed to phase out the less efficient type of extinguishers, which may have been the very best we had years ago but which are now obsolete, and to bring about the installation of the more efficient ones that we now possess.", "In the field of inspection and maintenance, Mr. Speaker, the Canadian Underwriters Association book 10A provides sound procedures. But there is no legislation to make them mandatory.", "Fire extinguisher servicing agencies are not licensed. Anyone, regardless of qualification, may enter the field and seek business. Any person may seek that business by lowering his prices to the level where servicing just can’t be done without cutting too many corners.", "It’s a highly-competitive field, and for anyone more concerned with making a dollar than in safety, the way is wide open to tender prices far too low to guarantee adequate work. The result may be that recharging the equipment, or even putting a new date on the tag after a quick look at the outside of the extinguisher, is all that’s done. Careful inspection, maintenance and repair goes by the board. These things are often not covered by the tender specifications or the business agreements.", "The building owner takes too much for granted. To him, servicing is servicing and he doesn’t realize how important thorough servicing can be if the extinguisher is to be constantly ready for the emergency it was designed to meet. Seldom is any detailed service report given to the owner, and seldom does he know what work he has actually paid for. It’s similar to a car owner who is only concerned with keeping the gas tank full, who ignores the brakes, the oil, the tires and other vital parts of the car equally essential to keeping it in good running order.", "Mr. Gorman of Oshawa, whom I mentioned before and who has wide experience, says this:", "“There are 11 manufacturers of multi-purpose dry chemical -- ammonium phosphate base -- fire extinguishers listed in the ULC’s list of equipment and materials. This does not include some American manufacturers that are not listed but available to Canadian consumers.", "“The CUA book 10A states when recharging dry chemical fire extinguishers the manufacturer’s chemical should be used or the extinguisher is void of its label. No servicing company carries in its recharging stock 11 different manufacturers’ chemicals. In fact most recharging companies buy their chemical from one company; a company that sells this chemical for the lowest price and does not have any approval for the chemical. This means once a fire extinguisher has been recharged it is no longer as effective, as it was originally.”", "He also says:", "“The Industrial Safety Act requires proper fire extinguishers and by the term “adequate” requires that they be in a constant state of readiness. The number of establishments that I have observed that have complied with the Act would be less than 10. I have been in over 1,000 plants from Windsor to Gananoque.", "“The average industry is incapable of providing a record of their own fire extinguishers without doing a plant search. In other words, they don’t have any record of the number of extinguishers -- let alone the types and ages and locations of them. Installation of fire extinguishers generally means distributing anything with the words 'fire extinguisher’ stamped on it throughout the plant.”", "And he says:", "“In some communities the local fire department inspects buildings and instructs the owners to deliver their fire extinguishers to their fire department garage. Here they recharge the extinguisher in a substandard manner and have the owners pick up the extinguisher. They charge for this, of course; and sometimes more than the average legitimate fee. While these units are at the fire department the owner has no fire protection.”", "Then too, Mr. Speaker, extinguishers are pressure vessels and so stand some danger of blowing up if any weakness develops in the outside shell. The Canadian Underwriters Association’s book 10A requires hydrostatic testing at stated intervals, depending upon the type of equipment. But hydrostatic testing is done only at the request of the owner and most owners don’t even know that it should be done. There is no legislation to cover it and little specialized equipment in this province to carry it out. Outside Metro this type of test equipment just does not exist.", "Near my office door in the north wing is a pressure water extinguisher. Regulations 10a says it should have a hydrostatic test every five years; and it also says there should be a metal tag stamped with the date of the inspection and the name of the person who does the inspection; and that tag self-destructs if anybody tries to remove it from that extinguisher and put it somewhere else. Well Mr. Speaker, there is no tag on this extinguisher; there is no tag on any extinguisher I have seen in the building.", "This particular extinguisher was made in 1964. I can see perhaps some reason why the government should leave these potentially explosive devices in the offices of the opposition members, but the strange thing is that they also exist downstairs in the offices of the government members -- and those extinguishers have no metal tags on them either. So evidently the hydrostatic testing is not being done even in this building, unless I have not been able to see the tags that should be there.", "The final thing that I raise is training for use. Certainly all janitors and service people in all buildings should be trained in the use of this equipment so they know exactly what kinds of fires particular equipment can put out. Also, the people concerned who are working near this equipment should know as well.", "For example, I sit very close to a fire extinguisher upstairs, and I did not know what type it was until I began to do a little research for this particular resolution. If a fire had occurred I would have had very little information on what to do in handling it.", "Finally, Mr. Speaker, my resolution says there should be a commissioner to supervise and enforce these standards; and such a commissioner could very well be the fire marshal of this province. The purpose of appointing a commissioner of fire extinguishers would be to eliminate the present confusion and inadequacies that presently exist in the fire extinguisher field.", "It would be the responsibility of the commissioner’s office to:", "1. Establish a standard for the installation and maintenance of fire extinguishers in all buildings and areas where the public may enter and the possibility of fire exists; and to recommend legislation and regulations to publish these standards.", "2. Provide publication of these standards and other pertinent information to the authorities of various jurisdictions, fire extinguisher users, servicing companies and manufacturers.", "3. Control the maintenance of fire extinguishers through training and licensing of personnel engaged in this type of service.", "4. Through research, provide information and recommendations to those concerned regarding such areas as discontinued approval of certain extinguishers and practices, informing the public and the manufacturers of new or advanced methods of fire fighting, fire extinguisher training for industry and students.", "5. Ensure that every community in the province has an inspector appointed by their local fire department.", "I call upon this House, Mr. Speaker, to support the resolution I have put forward today." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Hon. member for Beaches-Woodbine." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. T. A. Wardle (Beaches-Woodbine)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the resolution proposed by the hon. member for Yorkview. My hon. friend brings up an important matter and makes what I think is a reasonable argument for setting provincial standards in order to control the information and maintenance of fire extinguishers in all buildings except those in private residences.", "It seems to me that having a set standard throughout the province would be desirable. There are no proper individual standards now as to types of fire extinguishers and no provincial maintenance and inspection programmes.", "I understand this resolution would provide an inspection programme to ensure that the type of extinguisher used on premises is adequate for the purpose it is intended to serve, that is to extinguish a fire on those particular premises.", "It is important also to give consideration to another aspect of this problem. A confectionery or similar store, it is hoped, would have the type of extinguisher that would be suitable for the type of stock carried in such a store. However, if the occupancy of the store changed and it became a dry cleaning establishment or a fish and chip store, then a different type of extinguishing agent would be required.", "For instance, a confectionery store would require a water pressure type of fire extinguisher for paper and similar stock, while a dry cleaning establishment would require a carbon dioxide or dry powder type of extinguisher. Inspections should be made when changes take place in occupancy of various business establishments; and, Mr. Speaker, this does not take place now. A store will become a new type of operation, yet the extinguishers often remain the same.", "Each extinguisher should be classified as to the coding. Inspections should be made to make sure that every establishment has the type of extinguisher required for that type of operation. The extinguisher should, of course, be changed when the type of occupancy or the type of stock carried is changed.", "I feel certain, Mr. Speaker, that uniformity in this regard and inspections throughout the province would bring up the standards throughout Ontario.", "The other important point, of course, is not only that fire extinguishers on premises should be of a suitable type but that they should be operable. There is certainly no point in having an extinguisher if, when the need arises, it is found to be empty or not suitable for that purpose. And this does happen in some cases when there is a fire.", "In brief, there should be, firstly, the correct type of extinguisher for the purpose and, secondly, inspection should ensure that the extinguisher is workable.", "Some cities and towns throughout Ontario have fire bylaws that require annual inspection of firefighting equipment. This doesn’t take place in the Metropolitan Toronto area, of course, and in some other cities and towns throughout Ontario. It is not generally the case in business establishments that annual inspections take place.", "This bill, I understand, would provide for uniform jurisdiction throughout the province, as opposed to the present situation where there are several hundred jurisdictions. I think this resolution also should provide that there should be fire bylaws passed in every town and municipality throughout the province so standards would be set that would be applicable.", "Finally, Mr. Speaker, in the short few moments that we have left, I compliment the member for bringing this resolution forward, and I am glad to give my support to it. Thank you very much." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for York-Forest Hill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. P. G. Givens (York-Forest Hill)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I will speak against the resolution. I think we don’t need a commissioner. We now have a fire marshal by the name of Hurst who can look after matters quite adequately, and I understand he does a pretty fair job.", "I think we are surrounded with regulations; maybe they are not enforced, but I don’t think that by the passing of legislation we would get them adequately enforced. I think we should see that the government passes its new building code, which now is years be- hind in its passage. I don’t know why they are delaying further, because I think that fire preventive measures should be built into buildings, and not have a multiplicity of fire extinguishers. And perhaps people who sell fire extinguishers should be licensed. The matter of maintenance particularly should also be looked after, but that’s a different subject, and I don’t think that is going to be solved by having more regulations.", "In Metropolitan Toronto, the various municipalities have a plethora of regulations. The city of Toronto has a fire prevention bylaw -- I think its number is 6069 -- and we have a building bylaw. No. 368, which has to do with the building of highrise apartment houses and so on.", "I think that when people get involved in a fire, they should leave firefighting to the professionals. They should get their wives and kids and get them the hell out of there and leave the firefighting to the people who know what they are doing, because when you talk about having an adequate kind of fire extinguisher you need a different fire extinguisher for every different kind of fire you may have in any kind of establishment. You may need a variety of a dozen different kinds of fire extinguishers, and the average person doesn’t know what fire extinguishers he should have. So keep yourself well insured, get your wife and kids out of there and leave the firefighting to the professionals.", "I’ll tell you this, you pick up a paper -- and this has to do with people who get killed in fires -- and every so often there is a big fire in a rooming house. I wonder why there aren’t many more rooming-house fires in Toronto than there are because there are thousands of rooming houses. You know what causes these rooming-house fires? Two main things -- smoking and drinking. You can take these rooming houses and you could surround them with fire extinguishers and they would still burn down. And they will still burn down, because they are too smashed when they go to bed smoking to get up and to run over to a corner to get a fire extinguisher to put the fire out.", "So I don’t care how many regulations we are going to pass and how many commissioners we are going to put in charge and how many inspectors we are going to have roaming around this province and how many extinguishers we are going to put in all these establishments -- it isn’t going to help the matter, because fires are the result of carelessness.", "In an industry, in a factory, where people are attuned to dealing with emergencies and they can be trained and they are dealing in a disciplined way, things are different. I am talking about residential fires. I am talking about where people are involved, where kids are involved, women and children are involved, and things of that nature. I am not talking about industrial fires, like in a motor company or things of that nature.", "I think we have adequate regulations. The matter is a question of enforcement and not a matter of passing more regulations and putting more people in charge of these regulations. We’ve got enough of a bureaucracy as it is right now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)", "text": [ "He has persuaded us, we will vote against it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Peel South." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. D. Kennedy (Peel South)", "text": [ "I will give way." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Welland South." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. Haggerty (Welland South)", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I’m finally going to get on my feet here.", "I want to concur with the previous member who just spoke that there are enough regulations now that fire departments can cover the matter of fire extinguishers. We have the National Building Code, we have a proposed Ontario Uniform Building Code, we have local municipal bylaws, we have the Fire Marshals Act -- which covers the matter pretty thoroughly there, and perhaps I should read this, Mr. Speaker:", "“Where in a municipality a fire prevention office has been established, or the chief of the fire department in a municipality has designated one or more members of the fire department as a fire prevention officer or officers, or the fire marshal has so designated any other person, every person who is a member of that fire prevention bureau is designated as an assistant to the fire marshal and shall have all the powers of an assistant to the fire marshal under this Act.”", "Of course, if you go into section 19 of the Fire Marshals Act, that pretty well covers it. Each member of that fire department or its volunteer paid fire department has the same responsibility as the fire marshal under the direction of the fire chief.", "I think the most important thing, Mr. Speaker, is that there is a lack of fire prevention policies in the Province of Ontario. We don’t have enough education, even in our schools perhaps, throughout the municipalities. I think that we can perhaps reduce the number of fires in Ontario through proper fire prevention programmes.", "I think the most important thing in this, that the mover should have brought in with it, is that I would like to see heat detectors placed in every home and every multiple dwelling." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "Don’t we have enough regulations? Isn’t that what the member said?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "This isn’t a regulation. This is something that I think would pinpoint a fire perhaps right at the time it starts, and perhaps you would get the people out of the building and you wouldn’t need the fire extinguishers. But as the member says we have about four or five different types of extinguishers." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Young", "text": [ "He wants to get another regulation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "That is, in fact, under the National Fire Code of Canada, 1963, so that regulation --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order. The time has expired." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "I think what is lacking is that we should have a good fire prevention educational programme in the Province of Ontario under the existing regulations. Thank you, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, before I move the adjournment of the House, I would like to say that tomorrow we will continue with the discussion on Bill 26 under item 2. Following that, should we conclude it, there will be a slight change, and we will proceed to item 6. Should we conclude both of those items we will then turn our minds to No. 8. I am not sure, of course, what the progress will be and, depending upon the progress tomorrow, I would announce the business for Thursday should it be that way. I also have the Minister of Energy (Mr. McKeough) standing by with his estimates and I would ask that the members of the House prepare themselves for that possibility.", "I would also like to say now in regard to the estimates that are currently on the table, in the House -- and not in this order; I will give the order immediately I have it clear -- are Consumer and Commercial Relations, Energy, Agriculture and Food, Industry and Tourism, Resources policy; in standing committee, Attorney General -- who is now being heard -- the Solicitor General, Natural Resources, Transportation and Communications, Labour and Environment." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Is the minister going to provide us with a written list?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Before the adjournment of the House, might I inquire of the minister if it is his intention to proceed with the estimates in the House tomorrow evening, or will we follow through with Bills 26, 22 and 25, as may be expected?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "Yes. Based on progress thus far I believe that that won’t be a problem to us, but I would think that that would be correct." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "The second point I would raise, Mr. Speaker, is with respect to the next private members’ hour. It will be the government’s turn but there are no bills standing in the government members’ names. It would be convenient if whatever bill is to be proceeded with would be brought in to- morrow so that we can be assured of having printed copies by the end of the week." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "Yes, that will be negotiated with the whips. I don’t think there will be a problem there.", "Hon. Mr. Winkler moves the adjournment of the House.", "Motion agreed to.", "The House adjourned at 6 o’clock, p.m." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. M. Shulman (High Park)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. Yesterday the government --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I hardly see how it can be a point of order at this moment. The proceedings haven’t started -- nothing is out of order. It may be a point of privilege." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "It refers to yesterday’s proceedings, sir." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Was the hon. member present when the alleged breach of order occurred?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Yes, sir." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "It should have been brought up at that time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "I couldn’t; I didn’t know it was occurring. The government House leader yesterday said he was giving the answer to question 3 on the order paper. I presumed he was giving the answer. How could I know he wasn’t? That is the point of order I would like to raise.", "The information he supplied was not the information requested. The information requested which referred to certain dates has still not been supplied, and the question is off the order paper." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)", "text": [ "Well, that’s just outrageous, Mr. Speaker.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well, let the minister supply the right information. He shouldn’t be a patsy to his colleagues." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I should point out that any question, whether it be oral or whether it be written, may be answered in whatever manner the hon. minister to whom the question was directed sees fit. There is nothing in the standing orders that requires a question be answered in one way or another. It may be answered but it need not be answered." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. E. Sargent (Grey-Bruce)", "text": [ "A point of privilege, Mr. Speaker.", "I have been trying to get information from the Provincial Auditor both on the amount of moneys being paid to Robert Macaulay who has been retained at $75 an hour to the Minister of Energy (Mr. McKeough) and on other matters of equal importance in the public interest and the Provincial Auditor refuses to give me any information. His position is that the information should be requested in the form of a question to the ministry or in the public accounts committee.", "Mr. Speaker, the simple facts are that the public accounts committee has information 18 months old and the ministry will not give information if it is embarrassing, but will cover it up. So I’m trying to get across this position. If we are going to do a meaningful job here, on behalf of the taxpayers of Ontario, in weeding out these inequities and what is going on, then we must have access to this information.", "The fact is that these public servants know this information; I am not allowed to know it but they know it. I, as an elected official, have a right to that information and I think it is time that we resolve this, immediately, because the job we are doing is not meaningful if this is allowed to be continued. So I ask you, Mr. Speaker, to weigh this question that the Provincial Auditor must furnish this information to us, each hon. member of the House." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I should comment upon the remarks of the hon. member. First of all I believe he did rise in reference to what he alleged was a point of privilege. Privilege, of course, is a right conferred upon a member of Parliament or the hon. members of Parliament collectively, which right or privilege is not conferred upon the members of the general public. The hon. member perhaps has a valid complaint, but certainly it is not a point of privilege as referred to in the parliamentary rules.", "He has made his point and I think that it should be pursued, but certainly it is not, in my opinion, a point of privilege. It can be pursued to determine just whether or not the hon. member has the right to this information, but it is not a parliamentary privilege to which he referred, therefore there is no action which can be taken on my part. As far as the Speaker is concerned, I can in no way impel the auditor or anyone else to divulge information. There are other means by which the hon. member may pursue this." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. P. G. Givens (York-Forest Hill)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would like to raise a point of order, since you entertained the previous point of order. I have asked a number of my colleagues on all sides of the House and I get different answers. I would like to know, sir, when ministers reply with written answers -- when ordinarily they would be expected to reply in the House to oral questions and their answers would be the soul of brevity -- generally when they prepare written replies they come out about six times longer than they should. Do you in fact, Mr. Speaker, stop the clock with respect to these replies, having to do with the time allotted for the oral question period, or do you not? May I have an authoritative answer, please?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member is asking for an authoritative answer. The only authority is the Speaker, because there is nothing in the standing orders which stipulates what shall or shall not be done in certain circumstances. I believe the hon. member has observed the custom and the practice in the House and he has a copy of the standing orders. There is a 45-minute period provided for oral questions, and a reasonable number of supplementaries may be directed to the minister. Again, this is left at the discretion of the Speaker to determine what is a reasonable number of questions. In that respect I do have to consider the nature of the question in the first place, the importance of the question, whether or not two or three or four or five supplementaries are in order.", "Regarding the time taken to provide an answer by the hon. minister, I have worked out a programme where if I feel that the question has constituted something that would more properly have been a ministerial statement, then I have added two or three or four minutes to the question period time. I might say to the hon. members that in my opinion, two or 2 1/2 minutes would be a reasonable length of time, at the most, in which to provide an answer to any question. If it goes beyond that then I do add one or two or three minutes to the question period time. I trust that answers the hon. member." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, since this seems to be order time rather than question time, let me raise a point of order too. This morning, as I understand it, we are going to continue, at the appropriate time, with the estimates of the Ministry of the Attorney General. At the same time, the House leader has indicated to us that perhaps he is going to call second reading of the two taxing bills which stand on the order paper. This places a very substantial burden on many hon. members of this House who would like to take part in both of the debates and I appeal to you, Mr. Speaker, perhaps to suggest to the House leader that he might be able to order the business of the House so that those who are interested in both of these events might be able to take part in them at different times." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I am sure that the hon. member for Downsview doesn’t really believe that I should direct, in any way, the House leader as to the order of business --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "I did not ask you to direct him." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I believe that the hon. member for Downsview intended only to get his point across to the House, which he has done. In no way can I direct the hon. House leader what we will do." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. A. J. Roy (Ottawa East)", "text": [ "Somebody should." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. D. McKeough (Minister of Energy)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on a further point of order, I only heard part of the question asked of you, sir, by the hon. member for Grey-Bruce, but I would suggest that if he puts that question on the order paper it will be answered." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "I didn’t hear that." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "I would suggest that if the hon. member is concerned about certain expenditures and if he puts a question on the order paper, it will be answered." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Doesn’t the minister know the answer himself without me putting the question on the order paper?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a point of view I want to raise with you.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. G. Davis (Premier)", "text": [ "That’s unusual." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)", "text": [ "How is the hon. member going to put it forward?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "In one of the galleries, east or west, there are politics students from Wexford Collegiate, many of whom reside in my riding, and I’d like to introduce them to the House." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "From that point of view, it’s perfectly in order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Thank you." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Statements by the ministry.", "Oral questions.", "The hon. member for Kitchener." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a question of the Minister of Revenue: Can the minister advise as to the cost of the full-page advertisement in this morning’s Globe and Mail and whether, in addition, item 10 is correct when it says: “Ontario will reduce its outstanding public debt to a target figure of $449 million utilizing cash flow surplus and excessive liquid reserves”?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Misleading the public." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. A. K. Meen (Minister of Revenue)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have not seen that advertisement. I’ll get the information for the hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "The minister okayed the ad, didn’t he?" ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "A question of the Minister of Government Services: Following the information in his ministry’s supply standards catalogue, can the minister justify for me the requirements of the basic entitlement of ministers of the government to have, among other things, a double-pedestal desk valued up to $950 and ashtrays of $15 each, for a possible total of some $6,673, in their particular offices? Can he advise me as well how he can justify that cost for a desk, when in Grand and Toy’s present catalogue the most expensive desk they sell is priced at $565 and even that one is on sale at $318?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. T. P. Reid (Rainy River)", "text": [ "His father-in-law sells them." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. W. Snow (Minister of Government Services)", "text": [ "Well, Mr. Speaker, the supply standards catalogue specifies certain classes of furniture, with which I’m sure the hon. member is familiar, for different offices. We also have standards as to space for different types of accommodation, whether it be an office for a minister, a deputy minister or an executive director." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "He didn’t read the X-rated catalogue." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Snow", "text": [ "These standards that have been developed are certainly maximums. I don’t believe any of the ministers that I know of have had any more elaborate desks than would be anticipated. These are maximum standards that have been approved by Management Board and they are the standards that we live with." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "As an additional question, Mr. Speaker, to go further into this rug-ranking problem, can the minister justify how a government secretary, again according to this manual, is entitled to some $239 worth of office amenities while a ministerial private secretary is entitled to $1,943, eight times as much?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Snow", "text": [ "Well, again, these standards are set up. The normal secretarial furniture that the government uses is standard steel furniture. Normally, furniture for ministerial secretarial offices is wood furniture. This makes some of the difference. It is normally of a design that blends with the other furniture in the office." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "It is a matter of blend, is it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. M. Deacon (York Centre)", "text": [ "Supplementary: Do the prices that have been indicated by my colleague reflect the benefits and the savings that accrue to taxpayers by centralized purchasing in this province? Why can’t the government show any evidence of economy and consciousness of inflationary costs in the way of operating this?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Snow", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, these supply catalogues have not been changed. There have been no inflationary increases built in. This furniture is --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Snow", "text": [ "Does the hon. member want an answer or doesn’t he? If his colleagues would quit shouting --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "We would like an answer." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Snow", "text": [ "I can assure the hon. member that all of this furniture is bought by public tender and is bought under the bulk purchasing system of a larger order put together, and the tenders are called on this at varying intervals.", "All our furniture is publicly tendered through the central purchasing system and is bought for all ministries under the bulk system. When we buy filing cabinets, we don’t go out to Grand and Toy, as the hon. member may be suggesting, and buy one filing cabinet at retail price." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. R. Good (Waterloo North)", "text": [ "It would be a lot cheaper if they did." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Snow", "text": [ "We call tenders on the supply of the necessary filing cabinets that we need or anticipate that we will need in one year. Then as the requirements come up, these materials, whether they be filing cabinets, whether they be typewriters or whether they be wastepaper baskets, are supplied against our overall purchasing contract for that commodity." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "A further supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Would the minister not agree that the specifications for this equipment should be reviewed, because it’s obvious that the prices are completely out of line to what’s appropriate?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Snow", "text": [ "No, I would not agree at all with that, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "I have another question of the same minister, Mr. Speaker: Can the minister provide us with the information -- I realize he can’t perhaps do it right now -- of any costs for improvements that have been necessitated by the recent five appointments to the cabinet?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Snow", "text": [ "To my knowledge, Mr. Speaker, and I will check into this further, there have been no changes or no refurnishings of any type in any minister’s offices with these last changes or appointments. In fact, there have been very few changes or very little new furniture for any minister in the two years that I have been minister of the department." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "In fact, there is no space to put the furniture in." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Snow", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the desk and the furniture in my office are exactly the same that was put there when the building was built." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "Oh, antiques!" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Snow", "text": [ "The furniture my predecessor, three removed, the hon. Ray Connell, selected in that office is still there and has been used by each minister since and is still serving me very adequately.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Perhaps if it was used harder, it might wear out. That’s possible, Mr. Speaker.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "I have a question of the Minister of Health. Can the minister advise us if there is any new information that he can give us with respect to the situation of the denturists, particularly as to whether there have been any further charges laid or whether the minister can advise us of expected changes that will hopefully resolve this particular problem?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. F. S. Miller (Minister of Health)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on the first part of the question, I can make no more comment at this point in time. On the second part of the question, to the best of my knowledge no more charges have been made. However, charges are not brought by the Ministry of Health, as I am sure the hon. gentleman knows; they are brought by the normal people who can lay charges." ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. M. Campbell (St. George)", "text": [ "By whomever it is." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "By normal people?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "That leaves the member for Grey-Bruce out. I am certainly hopeful that a final decision will be forthcoming soon." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, before we go on to the next question, the hon. member for Kitchener asked me about an advertisement placed in the Globe this morning which I hadn’t seen and I readily conceded that, but I can see now why I was not aware of it. It’s placed by my colleague, the Treasurer (Mr. White), and by the Premier. It seems to me the questions raised by the member for Kitchener should more properly have been directed to one or other of those two of my colleagues, rather than to me and to my ministry." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the reason I did that was because one wasn’t here, and I didn’t think the other one would know." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "A supplementary, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I’m sorry. The minister had risen on a point of order. There can be no supplementary to a point of order.", "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Well, he’s totally wrong anyway." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)", "text": [ "I like that." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Since mediation began yesterday in the hospital worker controversy, can the Minister of Health make a statement to the House today about any intentions he may have of resolving that dispute, specifically before this month ends?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, if I said this wasn’t one of the most important problems to me I would not be speaking the truth." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Then don’t say it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "I am very concerned about the outcome of those negotiations. However, I think the member would agree with me that the free bargaining process should be given every chance to find a resolution to the problem." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)", "text": [ "Not if the government withholds the wherewithal for settling it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "It is working now and it is my hope that a solution will be found via that means. I am in close contact with various people involved in the process and I am keeping myself as well informed as I can. I think any other comments I might make at this time would defeat the purpose of the free bargaining process." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "A supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, if I may: The minister will know that we all believe in the free collective bargaining process but he’s not pretending, surely, that there will be any resolution of the hospital worker controversy without additional money from the government? Surely he knows that is true. Therefore, I must ask him, since the days pass and the strike psychology accelerates and the workers live on the razor’s edge, why will he not say he intends, presumably at some point, to make an offer? Does he intend to make an offer to increase the ceilings or provide additional moneys for these hospitals before May 1?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I think anything we say here which is reported in the press could have a very negative effect upon the bargaining process." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "It could have a very positive effect in possibly avoiding the strike." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "I think the negotiations should go on between the bodies appointed to do them at this point in time without my offering advice to them in either direction." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)", "text": [ "The government is the silent partner." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The member for Rainy River with a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "Does the minister really believe that the free collective bargaining process can continue when the ceilings are still on and the workers are in the position of knowing that under the present circumstances they can’t be brought up to a reasonable wage?", "Secondly, if I may, Mr. Speaker, does he have within his ministry a report on the wages and salaries of the hospital workers in the province?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "The first part of the question assumes that when the ceilings for this year -- one of the quick assumptions everybody made is that when the ceilings in hospitals went up by roughly eight per cent it meant that salaries were limited to an eight per cent change. That does not necessarily follow." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Of course it does." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "Where else are they going to get the money?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Come on, why is the minister doing this to the workers?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "This is one of the reasons, of course, why there are two studies going on to answer that very question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "But why is he forcing them to strike?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "I am not forcing them to strike and I sincerely --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "He leaves them no alternative." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Why is he doing it to them? Why is he pushing them to that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "I sincerely hope that the unions will respect the law as it is written and not ask their members to go on strike." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Does the minister respect their right to live? Does he respect their right to a wage?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "I do." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "He can’t procrastinate." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order. I will permit supplementaries in their proper order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Sorry, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "On the second part of the question as to studies on salaries, I have seen a number of studies on salaries for hospital workers in various areas. I wouldn’t want to say any one of them was a total provincial picture. Certainly I have seen studies of the Toronto area and of certain of the unions involved." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "If I may ask, by way of further supplementary, if the minister has those studies as he suggests, is there any point in waiting for the Minister of Labour (Mr. Guindon) to come up with his report? Why is he using that as an excuse not to make a statement in this Legislature that the hospital workers will, in fact, be given a decent wage?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman (Windsor-Walkerville)", "text": [ "And that they are not bound by the eight per cent." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "And that they shouldn’t be bound by the eight per cent limit?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Well, of course, they are not bound by the eight per cent limit; I take exception to that one point. I could show that categorically in the estimates that were given us before the year began.", "I can only say this: With bargaining going on at this point in time, I am very anxious to give it its full opportunity to resolve the problems within the parameters we have given." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "How much more time does the minister need?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well, may I ask a supplementary? The unions in good faith have told the minister what they intend to do on May 1. What is the Ministry of Health’s response going to be if, in fact, it has forced the workers out on that day?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Well, that is a hypothetical question at this point in time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "It is not hypothetical." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "It is not. They are the minister’s hospitals; it is his jurisdiction." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "They are not my hospitals in that sense; they are not my employees in that sense." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Sure they are. The minister is the partner at the bargaining table." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "I am certainly a partner." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "That’s right. What is he going to do? He is the Minister of Health." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scar- borough West." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A question of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations, if I may: In his analysis of the various supermarket chains, did he look at the possibilities of internal-administered price fixing and vertical integration after looking at their profits?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. T. Clement (Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations)", "text": [ "No, Mr. Speaker, the study was prepared from the public financial statements, made available by the industries to the public as required under the securities legislation of this province.", "I should point out that in those particular studies they leave something to be desired, particularly when we don’t have a breakdown as to food sales as opposed to sales of other objects in supermarkets. As the hon. leader of the NDP knows, in supermarkets today one can buy anything ranging from cleaning cloths to mops, brooms, dishes, books of knowledge, or things of that nature; and yet the sales indicate total sales, and don’t give us the breakdown -- what is allocated for food sales as opposed to those other items -- and it concerns me." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "Yes, one can’t afford to buy the food." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "May I, by way of supplementary, ask the minister to extend his inquiry into the possibilities of internal-administered price fixing in the Weston empire, based on this set of assumptions, or this information:", "Is the minister aware that Loblaws said they had to raise the price of bread because of the increased cost to the supplier, the supplier being Weston’s, which owns Loblaws -- as the minister knows? Weston’s said it had to raise the price because of the increased costs to its suppliers for milk and sugar; the suppliers for Weston’s are Donlands and Royal Dairy and West Cane Sugar, all owned by Weston’s. Weston’s then said that the flour had gone up from their suppliers, the suppliers being McCarthy Mill of Streetsville and Soo Line of Winnipeg, both wholly-owned subsidiaries of Weston’s. They then said that the distribution costs were going up which would require an increase in bread --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "Question?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "And the distributors involved" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. A. Stewart (Minister of Agriculture and Food)", "text": [ "Is this a speech?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "It is the kind of speech the Minister of Agriculture doesn’t like." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "-- National Grocers and York Trading, both subsidiaries of the Weston empire.", "Now since all of the price mechanism is controlled within the same corporate empire, is the minister going to look at the possibility of price fixing?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, price fixing, if it can be proved and is against the public interest, is an offence under the Combines Investigation Act. May I point out that while the matters the hon. leader of the NDP has described may well occur, that not only did the price of those products go up to subsidiaries of the industry or the company named by the leader of the New Democratic Party, they went up in other sectors with the competitors paying pretty much the same prices for the basic product as they obtained it from the market for resale, too." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Does the hon. member for Scarborough West have further questions? Supplementary -- the hon. member for York Centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "In connection with the segregation of food items and food sales from other sales, would it not be possible for the minister, through the Minister of Revenue, to find out the type of sales by supermarkets, as the returns under the sales tax would indicate the division between sales; because all items that are non-food items are subject to sales tax?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "I have written to the president of each of the companies named in the study requesting their making available additional information, not only to the shareholders by way of the obligatory financial statements, but so that the consumers of this province have some knowledge of what is involved in their wholesale operations for the previous year.", "Insofar as the member’s question is concerned, I suppose that mathematically it could be roughly computed. I think it would be much more advisable if the company on its own gave a statement breaking down the food sales as opposed to those other items. I don’t know -- I haven’t discussed it with my col- league, the Minister of Revenue -- but it might well be that his staff is precluded from making that information available to me under their legislation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "Is that the case?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "I don’t know." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Riverdale." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, by way of a supplementary question, is it, by any chance, by reason of an exemption granted by the Ontario Securities Commission to each of these companies under the Securities Act that they are not required to provide a breakdown of their sales figures? If it is, as my surmise would lead me to believe, will the minister deal with the Securities Commission and ask them to withdraw that exemption and to require the kind of information on the gross sales figures which he now requires in the public interest?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I’m not aware that any such exemption has been granted by the Ontario Securities Commission, but I will inquire and find out if such is the case." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "No wonder the price is right." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "May I ask the Minister of Energy if he has received complaints from farmers and municipal officials in Raleigh township about the behaviour of Union Gas when it digs on farms and cuts across roadways, in terms of what it pays and the various costs of repairs and the dismemberment that is left? Has he been dealing in that area?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "Raleigh township?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Raleigh township." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "No, not to my knowledge, I haven’t. I think if there were such complaints they might well go to the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations, who has the pipeline inspection branch, or they might come to the Ontario Energy Board, but I’m not familiar with any complaints." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Could I ask the minister to make inquiries in that direction?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "I shall do so." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Thank you." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "One last question of the Premier, Mr. Speaker.", "Is the Premier aware that the Ontario Paper Co. Ltd. has put up for sale on Manitoulin Island some 80,000 acres of what I believe amounts to prime recreational land with some 65 miles of lakefront? As I understand it, there are two prospective American buyers but, as yet, no others. Would the Premier consider taking this land into public park ownership?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Bernier) is having some discussions now with the Ontario Paper Co." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Is that so?" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "To beat the property speculation tax." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Are there any further questions from the hon. member for Scarborough West?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "No, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. minister responsible for the Youth Secretariat has the answer to a question asked previously." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. D. R. Timbrell", "text": [ "(Minister without Portfolio):Mr. Speaker, the question came from the member for Parkdale (Mr. Dukszta) and, due to his absence from the House today, if I may, I will hold it over until he’s here." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "All right. The hon. Minister of Health has the answer to a question asked previously. Then the hon. member for Grey-Bruce is next." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on Tuesday, the member for Wentworth asked me about colza oil and its effects upon the human body. I have looked into the background of this and found the following information.", "For many years, rapeseed oil has been a common edible oil ingredient of certain foods, margarine, salad oil, cooking oil and mayonnaise. However, in the past five years, laboratory evidence accumulated in several parts of the world indicated that high-level feeding to laboratory animals resulted in degenerative lesions in the heart muscles -- lesions attributable to erucic acid in the oil. For the interest of the rest of the hon. members, it’s a C22 mono-eloic acid." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Wow!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "I realize that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "We are all aware of that. The minister doesn’t have to be condescending. That’s old stuff." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "It sounds a little better than colza oil, I thought.", "The mass of evidence does not support the contention that sterility also results. An interesting aside is that a judge in Italy overruled the health authorities and said it caused sterility. The health officials never claimed that.", "As a result of laboratory findings in August, 1973, the health protection branch of the Department of National Health and Welfare, Canada, issued a bulletin to all suppliers and processors, both foreign and domestic, asking for a voluntary restriction of the erucic acid content of edible oil products to five per cent of the total fatty acid content.", "A survey of market food products containing rapeseed oil, just completed by the federal authorities, found that only one out of 359 exceeded the five per cent level. This represents a good response on the part of the food industry by monitoring the erucic acid content, and it will continue as a matter of routine.", "The control of the chemical content of nationally distributed foods is a responsibility of the Department of National Health and Welfare, Canada. Officials of this department have expressed the view that the rapeseed oil content at existing levels does not represent a threat to public health." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Just one supplementary question for clarification. Am I correct in assuming that this applies equally to imported oils and to domestically produced oils?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "That is my understanding." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Grey-Bruce." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Premier. Will he advise the House if he has approved, and the extent, of allowing large consortiums to have -- in the Minister of Energy’s words “to give them a piece of the action of Hydro”? What is the form of policy allowing Hydro to be involved with the private sector and in the words of the Minister of Energy “having secret negotiations with these consortiums”? In other words, is this approved government policy now or is it just a lot of talk?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I think there are several sections to that question from the hon. member for Grey-Bruce. As to whether the government approves of the suggestions made by the Minister of Energy, I would say categorically yes.", "The Minister of Energy has made some suggestions that I think are very creative and that would help resolve some of the capital problems that Ontario Hydro and the public generally might face and which I think might be an excellent utilization of the nuclear technology that is available to us. As the question relates to the procedures, the possibility of this and how it might function, I would say with respect, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member might direct that to the Minister of Energy himself." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Supplementary: I think the Premier should know what is going on too." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "If that is a supplementary question, I can only say --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "No, that’s a statement." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "-- being very humble, while I don’t purport to know everything that is going on, in some ways I feel that perhaps I know a little more about what is going on than the hon. member for Grey-Bruce." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "I would hope so.", "Supplementary: Mr. Speaker, does the first minister of this province not realize the magnitude of allowing Hydro -- which for 68 years has been a public body -- allowing the friends of the government to get a piece of this action? Might I ask the Premier -- and he should know this -- is the $15-billion programme the government is in line for now -- he admits that we are being drained but we are not broke --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. M. Havrot (Timiskaming)", "text": [ "Question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Will the Premier tell me that it is because the government can’t afford that $15 billion that he is going to allow them to take a part of the action? Is that it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. W. Hodgson (York North)", "text": [ "The member for Grey-Bruce didn’t approve of his friends having action either?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I find this an unusual question from the member for Grey-Bruce who is something of a free enterprise entrepreneur, as I understand it, himself --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Free wheeling, free entrepreneur." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "That has nothing to do with it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "-- that he would object to government utilizing the private sector." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "I certainly do, especially the way the government does it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I suggest to the hon. member that he can be as critical as he likes of Ontario Hydro but I think it is abundantly clear, and increasingly so, that Ontario Hydro has an excellent record in production of energy costs that will compare favourably with any public utility anywhere on this continent." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "That is what you call stick- handling, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "The member should know." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Sandwich-Riverside." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. F. A. Burr (Sandwich-Riverside)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Energy regarding his statement two weeks ago today that he would not send anyone to the wind energy conversion seminar in Sherbrooke, Que." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The minister is going to lose this debate in the long run." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Burr", "text": [ "This is the first opportunity I have had to ask this question, Mr. Speaker. Why did he make this announcement two weeks ago today, after notifying me the previous day that he had suggested to his senior technical staff that they send someone to this seminar? Who is running the minister’s department, he or the civil service?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "And why?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, that is an excellent question on a Friday morning. I can only assure the member that I do, but at times I’m impressed by their logic." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Burr", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a supplementary --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "He is talking about the minister. That’s why the minister is good. He has lots of hot air." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Burr", "text": [ "Why did his --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "There is a better judge in the House of that than the member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Burr", "text": [ "Why did his deputy --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "I will get the Premier next." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "Is that a promise or a threat?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Gaunt (Huron-Bruce)", "text": [ "Let the member for Sandwich-Riverside go on." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Burr", "text": [ "Are there any more supplementaries?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "Is it Good Friday this Friday?" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "The farmers got it.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Burr", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, my supplementary is, why did the minister’s deputy go to Thunder Bay to address a meeting of engineers and virtually plead with them to give him all the information they could on various forms of energy -- and he specifically mentioned wind power -- then, when I inform the minister of a meeting at which the most knowledgeable people in this area are going to be present, he shows no interest?" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Because he knows the member is not going to vote for him." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I suppose the key word there would be “give.” The deputy minister is asking people to send information in so that we don’t have to send people to conferences." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Burr", "text": [ "A supplementary: Is the minister going to continue the policy of getting information on various forms of solar energy from the Atomic Energy Commission which is part of the nuclear establishment? Why doesn’t he go to the source of knowledge instead of to rival and competing establishments?", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Why doesn’t he talk to the member for Sandwich-Riverside?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, as I said before, we are monitoring some of these things. When the time arrives we will take a greater interest than we are obviously taking now. We do continue to follow them. We don’t think, as I have said before, that the day of wind energy has arrived or that we should be spending public money in pursuit of something which is not yet --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "It’s been around for about 3,000, 4,000, or 5,000 years." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "-- in any way proved or, in our view, suitable for use here in Ontario. I can assure the member that we --", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "-- continue to read a great number of technical journals. We keep abreast of this and of course, we are following the member’s speeches with great interest and we know that he will keep us informed of the latest developments in wind energy, geothermal energy and solar energy." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "The minister is right there." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "He is going to end up as the Don Quixote of this House." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for St. George is next." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mrs. Campbell", "text": [ "My question, Mr. Speaker, is of the Provincial Secretary for Social Development, in the absence of the Minister of Health. Could she advise this House as to whether or not the ministry will release the information and statistics on readmissions to Ontario Hospitals?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. M. Birch (Provincial Secretary for Social Development)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, to the hon. member, I will make sure she receives this information." ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. Campbell", "text": [ "I am sorry?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mrs. Birch", "text": [ "I’ll make sure she receives the information." ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. Campbell", "text": [ "Thank you." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for High Park." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "A question of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations, Mr. Speaker: Can he give any explanation whatsoever of the fact that the Liquor Licence Board has deliberately contravened the law which states that no manufacturer of liquor may have an interest in a retail outlet? I am referring to section 30, paragraph d which says:", "“No licence may be issued or renewed under this Act for premises in which a manufacturer of liquor has an interest, whether freehold or leasehold, or by way of mortgage or charge or other encumbrance or by way of mortgage lien or charge upon any chattel property therein, and whether such interest is direct or indirect or contingent or by way of suretyship or guarantee.”", "Despite this being drawn to the attention of the Liquor Licence Board, can he explain why the board gave a licence to the Holiday Inn in Owen Sound when the land is owned by Parham Investments Ltd. whose directors are one Alex Graydon, Bruce Pritchard and John Harrison, two of whom are on the board of Labatt’s?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "I thought the member would never ask, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "The minister wishes he’d never asked!" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "No, I’d be glad to read the letter, with the indulgence of the members.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "It was sent to the member for Grey-Bruce on Sept. 21. It’s pointed out by the Liquor Licence Board, as a result of an inquiry which came from that particular member, that the Holiday Inn at Owen Sound is owned by Parham Investments Ltd. and Commonwealth Holiday Inns of Canada Ltd. as tenants in common. The inn is operated by Commonwealth Inns of Canada Ltd. under a lease with the owners. The applicant, namely Commonwealth Holiday Inns of Canada Ltd. is the tenant and operator of the inn. None of the directors of the applicant is in any way connected with the liquor industry. They are not directors of any brewery or any vintner.", "It was the opinion of the legal officer of the Liquor Licence Board at that time that there was no infraction of section 30 of the Act in issuing the licence to that particular establishment. I had this supplied to me this morning as a result of another inquiry." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "Shot down again.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "Relax --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "A supplementary, if I may, Mr. Speaker.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "The member remembers Talisman? Same deal." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Is the minister saying that the Act --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "The laws don’t mean a damn thing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "-- may be simply avoided by putting the application in in someone else’s name? Is the minister denying that Labatt’s owns that place?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, Labatt’s are not the applicant or the owner of that particular enterprise." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Of course they are not the applicant, somebody else applied for them." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "The Liquor Licence Board of Ontario has absolutely no intention of licensing anybody contrary to section 30 of the Act; that is the very purpose of having section 30 contained in the Act." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Labatt’s owns it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "An inquiry was made -- and it was a valid inquiry, I have no reason to criticize it -- in April, 1973." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Labatt’s used somebody else to apply for them, that’s all." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "We took the opinion from the legal officer for the board at that time. I have the letter here before me. Perhaps the member would like to read it so I don’t waste the time of the rest of the members of the Legislature, and see the opinion of the law officer." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Just ignoring the law." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for York Centre." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "A question of the Premier: Why has it taken so long to answer the question I asked on May 24, 1973, requesting information on the accommodation provided OISE and OETA? It has been on the order paper all that time." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the question related to the institute was discussed very thoroughly, if memory serves me correctly. Just about six years ago I can recall very well the member for Scarborough raising this matter. The officials from the institute were there and it was gone into in some depth.", "If memory serves me correctly as well, and perhaps the hon. member might consult with some of his colleagues on the committee, the question of accommodation was very fully dealt with at the standing committee dealing with the estimates -- I think of the Ministry of Education or Colleges and Universities -- just in the past session." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "A supplementary: This question asked for details concerning the proposals, and in none of those records could I find the details being given. That is why --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "It was thoroughly discussed six years ago." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "Well, it is a matter of discussion; that does not say the questions were answered. I have asked for answers to the questions." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Well, they were answered." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Essex -- all right, I must recognize the hon. member for Sandwich-Riverside." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Burr", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a question of the Minister of Energy: Has the minister yet received a copy of the solar energy panel report of December, 1972, that was given to President Nixon? This was a report by 40 scientists of NASA and the National Science Foundation." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am not personally aware of the report, no." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Burr", "text": [ "A supplementary: Does the minister mean to tell me that after I notified him back in December he still has not got a copy of this most important report?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Don’t they do any work over there?" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Hasn’t the minister read his correspondence?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The minister has a big technical staff, what do they do?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "We do not have a big technical staff. I am sure that some of the staff are reading it, and if they think it is important enough will forward it to me." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "They keep the minister in the dark." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Welland South." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. Haggerty (Welland South)", "text": [ "I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations. On March 29 I asked him a question in the House. Has the minister taken any steps to ensure that the $6.5 million in Eaton’s employees’ pension fund that was invested in Rapid Data Corp. is protected now? Has he -- and I believe he said that they were going to meet that morning -- has he anything further to report on that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "I apologize to the member for Welland South. I have overlooked getting back to him. I remember the question very well and I haven’t got the information. I will get it and get back to him right way." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Is the minister aware of the Financial Post report of April 6, 1974, that the Eaton retirement annuity plan with the T. Eaton Co. is a secured credit to the amount of $6.3 million and will receive nothing directly on dissolution?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "I am not aware of that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Windsor-Walkerville." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations. In view of the fact that miracle gas savers and mileage boosters are becoming more and more apparent on the market, does the minister plan to require companies that are involved to produce proof of their claims before he will permit the sale of these mileage savers?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, if there was an offence committed under the Consumer Protection Act as to any misleading advertising, then we would have to prosecute or the federal people would have to prosecute under their legislation.", "I have no way of compelling. I have no legislative authority to compel them to submit any proof to me.", "It has been our experience in matters that we have inquired about that whatever industry we direct the inquiry to has answered responsibly, but I point out they don’t have to and I have no way of compelling them to produce such information.", "Now I read with interest the other day, I believe, that there have been federal charges laid against the manufacturer of motor vehicles for what is alleged to be fraudulent advertising relating to the performance of one of its vehicles in a cross-country race some two or three years ago. That’s the only knowledge I have." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Did somebody say supplementary?", "The hon. member for High Park." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "A question of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations, Mr. Speaker: Can the minister explain the discrimination against women that is used by the Liquor Control Board in their hiring? Can the minister explain why no women -- although in theory they are invited to apply for permanent clerk positions -- are hired in those positions?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, that is not true. Women are being hired by the Liquor Control and Liquor Licence Boards -- particularly by the Liquor Control Board for self-serve stores, where in most instances they perform the function of cashiers.", "With reference to the existing stores that are not self-service, I must point out to the hon. member that there are some difficulties. One of the difficulties is that the staff are called on to stack cases, many of them containing bottles weighing 40 ounces; they are very, very heavy. That’s one problem.", "The second problem is the sanitary facilities. Many of the stores have only one washroom and if we hire female staff we are obliged to put additional washrooms in for them.", "So we are using women as cashiers in those areas that have self-serve stores, but we are not utilizing them in other areas -- having them stack cases and unload trucks and this sort of thing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Is the minister really not aware that each and every woman who has been hired as a cashier in the self-service stores has been hired as a temporary, not a permanent employee, paid only for the hours she works and limited to 27 1/2 hours per week?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Yes, I am well aware of that because the board hires all its staff initially on a temporary basis. And if the vacancy continues and the performance of that individual is satisfactory they go on to permanent staff after a waiting period." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order. Supplementary over here." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "In an attempt to increase the opportunity for the handicapped in obtaining employment, would the minister consider the employment of handicapped women as cashiers in some of the self-serve stores?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Yes, if they can do the job I’m sure the board would seriously consider that. It might be a very good role for a person so afflicted." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well, I have a supplementary. The minister is not seriously accepting the board’s argument about washroom facilities as a device to discriminate against women? I mean, he is not advancing that as though it were plausible, surely?", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Oh, our friends at the board. Why trot that out?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "The member is a real paper tiger -- all mouth." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "I am just pointing out, Mr. Speaker, that these are considerations. I’ve got stores down in my area that have been there for five or 10 years that were initially designed with one set of washrooms." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The minister can add to the facilities, for heaven’s sake." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "All right. Fine. We are converting in the self-service stores; this thing will clear itself. But perhaps the hon. member is aware that if we do have female staff it’s mandatory that they have individual washrooms." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Of course it is. So do something about it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a supplementary?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "There are only a couple of minutes remaining. I think --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "A very short one?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I think there have been sufficient supplementaries." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "How come none of the board’s temporary staff have ever been made permanent? They are female; not one of the minister’s cashiers has been made permanent." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "That’s a statement. I believe the hon. member for Waterloo North was up first." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "I believe you are wrong, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Well, if the hon. member for Waterloo North will defer to the hon. member for Rainy River, I’ll call him." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "A question of the Minister of Community and Social Services: Could the minister tell us whether the new regulations under the Day Nurseries Act regarding the setting up of day nurseries by charitable and other non-profit organizations are now in effect? And how much money will be designated for this additional function during this next fiscal year?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. R. Brunelle (Minister of Community and Social Services)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to inform the member that the regulations are now in effect. As far as the amount is concerned it will be a substantial amount, but at this time it is not known. Our budget will be --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "A supplementary: How many applications does the minister have under that section?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The time for oral questions has been exceeded.", "Petitions.", "Presenting reports.", "Mr. Havrot in the absence of Mr. Taylor from the standing administration of justice committee, reported the following resolution:", "RESOLVED: That supply in the following amount and to defray the expenses of the Justice Policy Secretariat be granted to Her Majesty for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1975:", "Justice Policy Secretariat", "Justice policy programme …….. $401,000" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "What happened to the 18? We want to get rid of that, too." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Motions.", "Hon. Mr. Winkler moves that Mr. Havrot be substituted for Mr. Dymond on the standing public accounts committee." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Shall the motion carry?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "We object in principle but let it carry. My colleague, the hon. member for Nickel Belt (Mr. Laughren) would not forgive me were we not to say that.", "Motion agreed to." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Introduction of bills." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on a point of order: The Minister of Labour is not in his seat." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Is the hon. member suggesting he is in his wrong seat? Will the hon. Minister of Labour please take his right seat. Now, shall the motion carry?", "Motion agreed to; first reading of the bill." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. D. R. Irvine (Minister without Port- folio)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, this bill provides for the annexation of approximately 62 acres of the township of Cornwall to the city of Cornwall. This small parcel of land, which is now owned by Ontario Hydro and the St. Lawrence Parks Commission, is located between Lake St. Lawrence and Highway No. 2 on the west side of the city. It will be the site of the new Combustion Engineering plant. My colleague, the Minister of Labour and myself met with members of the city and township council at Cornwall on Monday last. They agreed that the government should proceed in this way in order to facilitate the early establishment of this industry -- one of the major elements in the regional economic development programme in Cornwall.", "In addition to the annexation, the bill provides for the designation of the annexed area, together with an adjacent 18-acre parcel in the city, for industrial use.", "Mr. Speaker, we are very anxious to proceed as quickly as possible with this bill, and I will be taking it through the legislative process myself." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "As you know, Mr. Speaker, the rights and privileges of the backbenchers have been chipped away in the last eight years. This is an attempt to reverse that procedure." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Orders of the day." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on a point of order: A request was made to the minister yesterday to provide us with copies of any proposed amendments to the bill. My point is simply whether or not we can debate the bill on second reading if we do not have the amendments which the minister proposed to introduce in the course of this debate." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. A. K. Meen (Minister of Revenue)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I had hoped I might have copies of the amendments which my staff and I are presently working on available for the hon. members at this time. Regrettably, they are not ready yet.", "I could perhaps take a moment at this point, however, and outline two or three of the areas in which I do expect to have amendments available when we get into committee. I guess that would be next week.", "If the House would like me to do so, I could cover what I have. I have two or three." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Would this be acceptable to the hon. members who have raised the point?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)", "text": [ "Well it would give us a little information. It is high time we had it, we have been asking for it for a week." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "In view of the fact it’s high time, the hon. minister may proceed." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "I am not prepared to admit it’s high time, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "No; the minister is not prepared, period." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "I am prepared to tell hon. members of a couple of areas in which submissions have been made to me and in which, I think, we are going to be able to make some amendments.", "If hon. members refer to section 1, sub 1, sub f, sub ii, they will note that we set in that subsection one of the criteria for the designation of a non-resident corporation as being a corporation in which any one shareholder held a block of 25 per cent or more of the shares, it being obvious under a previous subsection that if 50 per cent or more were held by non-resident shareholders that would be a non-resident corporation.", "However, it has come to my attention that it’s entirely possible that a 25 per cent share in a corporation could be held by a non-resident, but in fact the corporation could be controlled by resident Canadians or by people falling in the category of residents. I will therefore propose in due course an amendment that would modify that section so that it would be essentially 25 per cent but it would be possible if it is demonstrated, I suppose to my satisfaction, to the satisfaction of the minister, that the corporation is in fact controlled by residents, that it would then not be automatically, as would otherwise be the case under sub ii, a non-resident corporation for the purposes of the Act.", "Section 6, subsection 1, is another section which has caused a good deal of consternation among mortgage lenders. The first mortgagees on building loans, for example, have been concerned that the potential lien that would arise if the property presently being built, let’s say by a builder and during the course of the construction he’s receiving mort- gage advances, if that property were subsequently sold to a non-resident, the provisions of section 6, sub 1, would place the lien for the 20 per cent tax in priority to all of those mortgage advances.", "That had not been my intention. The intention had been to preclude an arrangement whereby property was sold with a mortgage back -- sold to a non-resident, then the mortgage back -- it is our intention that the lien for the tax would be in priority to that kind of mortgage, but not in priority to mortgage advances made in good faith by a lending institution, or any other person for that matter, in the course of the construction of a dwelling; so I will have an amendment to that effect in committee.", "Lastly, section 16, sub 1, is in the opinion of my legal advisers somewhat more limited than it should be to permit the imposition of a lien for unpaid non-resident tax where we wish to postpone that lien in favour of mortgage advances.", "It’s roughly the same sort of thing. What we anticipate under section 16 is the non-resident corporation dividing building lands and developing them to the point of sale for construction purposes. At that stage or at some stage in the course of acquisition it would normally be subject to the 20 per cent non-resident tax. We don’t want to do that if the corporation eventually sells those lands back to Canadians or to residents.", "Therefore, what we propose to do -- and we thought we had sufficiently broad language in section 16, subsection 1, to accomplish that -- is to take a lien for the unpaid tax and if the property is eventually sold to resident Canadians to wipe out the lien. That lien would, once again, have priority over mortgage advances and other securities for moneys advanced, which we don’t really want to do. I want to have the authority, as the minister, to postpone the lien in favour of mortgage advances which come along and to provide for partial discharges of that lien with respect to smaller parcels within the subdivision as they are eventually sold off from time to time to resident Canadians.", "I will have an amendment to section 16 which will extend somewhat broader authority to the minister for that purpose." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The member for Kitchener on Bill 26." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Speaker. On Bill 26, there are a couple of points I would particularly like to raise with the minister. I realize that the minister, of course, has made certain comments on reports in the press that flowed originally from the comments made by the Treasurer (Mr. White) in his budget.", "I think we are all particularly concerned with the effect of Bill 26 because the minister has stated that this is one of the policies which this government is intending to develop in order that eventually the supply of housing and residential accommodation generally would be improved for the people of this province.", "There are some specific questions, I think, which should be put to the minister and these, I hope, will enable us to have a better bill or at least have various points clarified. As I had suggested to the minister yesterday, I felt there was some merit in obviously encouraging the greatest amount of public involvement that could be possible. I suggested, you will recall Mr. Speaker, that it might well be in the best interests of all parties concerned that we would put this bill in standing committee eventually so that the public could, in fact, appear before the committee so that there could be the broadest possible public discussion with builders, with persons who frankly speculate in the price of land, with municipal authorities and with the various officers of financial houses which are involved in this kind of development. I still believe that would be worth- while. However, we shall see if that can be accomplished." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. M. Deacon (York Centre)", "text": [ "It would be a very rare thing if it does get to standing committee." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "The minister, of course, is of the view, as he has expressed it, that the law must be clear and must be known as quickly as possible. My view of that, Mr. Speaker, is that I would not want a bad bill just because we were in a hurry to pass one. I would rather use the powers which the minister has to have an effective date of April 9, which is a date after which all transactions will be reviewed. The minister has suggested, indeed, that matters until September will be subject to this review so that the kiting of offers which was referred to earlier can be reviewed and certainly looked into in some depth.", "I am certain, of course, that there will be some who will attempt to avoid the interest the minister has shown in trying to regularize this kind of a situation. Those persons who choose to break the law in spirit if not in letter are going to have the ministry’s officials involved in reviewing their particular transactions. I think that is certainly valid.", "Since that power does exist, I would suggest the minister could well reconsider his earlier comment with respect to the future development of this bill. I think that if the power exists to review all of the circumstances we can well take several weeks, if necessary, to come up with a better bill, once we have had a full discussion of all the possibilities of all the problems and indeed of the future development of this area, and once we have involved all the segments of our society that are interested in this particular situation.", "Mr. Speaker, on the bill itself you will recall that I made some comments, in my lead-off on the budget debate for the opposition last Tuesday, specifically with respect to the point that was raised that this tax imposition will, in fact, discourage ownership of land. I suggested that foreign interests, because of the safety and because of the desire to be involved in a growing economy, may well accept this 20 per cent simply as a cost of doing business as they see it. I suggest further to you, Mr. Speaker, that if that is the case, if interests in Europe, in Asia, are prepared to buy into Canada at any price, then of course the ultimate price they pay will be reflected in the return they are going to want to have. If we have done nothing but add 20 per cent onto the cost of a facility, then the eventual resident, the home buyer, the apartment dweller, the condominium purchaser, are going to be sharing in that additional cost.", "So I caution the minister; I suggest to him that if he is serious about this, I presume he would say that no foreign interest could purchase land. If he simply thinks that he is going to avoid the foreign purchase of land by the imposition of this tax, then I suggest he is incorrect. I think this might have a very slight effect, but in the overall long-term point of view the attraction of our economy is going to simply have this imposition of tax treated as another business expense. I think that we are only going to be kidding ourselves if we think this tax is going to suddenly avoid the problem that the minister foresees.", "In my part of Ontario, in the city of Kitchener, there has been tremendous growth and development, much of it stimulated by foreign capital. I have received several letters from various dealers and persons who are involved as agents, particularly for German funds, and they raise some particularly interesting points. Certainly, Mr. Speaker, I am not standing here as their mouthpiece in the sense that I may necessarily agree with the point of view they take, but I think the points they raise should at least be discussed. The reason for this is that if we discourage certain building and certain procedures, this may be a decision the government openly chooses to make; but the point which was raised to me was the one which I have already just made for you, Mr. Speaker; and that was, of course, that it is most important to ensure that if we are interested in stopping foreign investment there are ways to do it, and this is likely not the way that is going to be successful.", "Now I noted, Mr. Speaker, that there were several areas of concern which were suggested in press reports. The persons who are dealing solely in vacant lands and the transfer of them from one party to another are the persons which this kind of a tax also is going to harm. I think that this tax, as it is looked upon as a companion to Bill 25, An Act to impose a Tax on speculative Profits resulting from the Disposition of Land, that together they are two instruments which the ministry has chosen to develop in order to attempt to resolve a problem.", "Mr. Speaker, as I have suggested in my budget speech, this will not resolve the problem. This bill will not bring any more housing onto our market, certainly not this year and certainly not next year. The only way to resolve that problem is by increasing large areas of serviced land immediately, but I will not repeat the remarks I made in that earlier debate.", "I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that there are some particular points on which I would like to hear from the minister as he responds with respect to the principle of this bill. Is it true that the officials in his ministry at least consider that this tax may be accepted as a cost of doing business in this province? Is it true that vendors may be induced to hang onto their properties, and therefore since they do not have a ready market available to them, the supply of housing ultimately will not be developed in the way it is hoped this kind of bill might assist?", "There are various problems that are going to come up, particularly when we look at the carrying costs of these various persons who are speculating, and the persons to whom they might like to sell their properties. If, for example, we deal with Ontario residents who are going to be encouraged to purchase land and develop it, what sort of a mechanism will we really have available to us to track down whether in fact these persons are acting for themselves, for foreign interests, for non-residents, for others who may in fact be putting up the money?", "It was interesting to talk yesterday with a person who, as an accountant, has been involved with speculation. He said to me that the greatest thing they feared was the uncertainty of having matters reviewed in the minister’s office. If there was a definition they could find a way around it; and this, of course, I think is what we are going to see. If there is a definition made obviously there are going to be persons who will lie awake nights attempting to avoid the results of that definition. And if the definition says 20 per cent or 40 per cent or whatever, then in effect we are going to have persons who are going to attempt to avoid the problem.", "Mr. Speaker, I really don’t wish to take up too much of the time of the House in reviewing this bill, because I think that we are agreed that there are certainly things which have to be done in order to encourage housing within the province. However, I feel that we are also disagreed as to the kinds of things which, in fact, should be done and the best manner of putting onto the market housing which of course is badly needed within the province.", "If this 20 per cent land transfer tax is going to apply to non-resident sales of apartment buildings then we may well be in a difficult position when we look to the kinds of capital developments we need in order to construct apartments. I think that it may well be that the tax is validly going to be imposed on those persons who are interested solely in land speculation. However, I do suggest that some consideration could well be given to the matter of applying this tax to the ownership of completed projects. There are many builders who are developing their properties here within the province as a result of investment of foreign funds. I think that if we are going to cut out those foreign funds by this tax then we may well have some difficulty.", "The minister shakes his head, and indeed this may be one of the points he will want to clarify. Certainly it’s one of the points which I think is important to have as clear as possible.", "I believe the shortages of apartment construction, especially as we approach a zero vacancy rate in cities like my own and in Metropolitan Toronto, are going to give us a series of problems to get accommodation on stream and developed as quickly as possible. It may be that this tax will have a serious effect on that matter, and surely there j is not much merit in putting in a tax if it is actually going to harm housing development during this period which the government admits is one of crisis.", "Mr. Speaker, those are just a few remarks. I think that we would like to hear from the minister and I’m sure that many other members will wish to make their comments, so that the various points that have been raised are clarified and so that our people know, as a result of this debate, the directions in which the ministry is moving." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "We want to give the Minister of Labour an opportunity to introduce a group which he wishes to introduce to the House." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. F. Guindon (Minister of Labour)", "text": [ "Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I’m sure the hon. members would like to join me this morning in welcoming students from the Etienne Brule French high school, Toronto, in the west gallery.", "Monsieur le Président, je vous remercie. Au nombre de nos visiteurs ce matin je suis heureux de signaler la présence des étudiants de l’école secondaire française Etienne Brûlé de Toronto qui sont accompagnés de leur professeur. Au nom de tous mes collègues je leur souhaite la plus cordiale bienvenue à la Législature ontarienne." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Wentworth." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I too have a few comments I want to make about the bill." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Quite a few." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "I want to begin by saying that I must say to the member for Kitchener I’m not quite clear whether his party is in favour or opposed to the bill. I gathered from his leader’s comments on the day the legislation was introduced that the Liberal Party was very much in favour of what the government was doing in regard to this bill. I’ll be very interested in watching how the vote goes, just to determine whether we are back into the education debate again.", "I want to say to the minister one thing to begin with. We’ve raised a number of times the problem of separating policy from administration in the area of taxation. I believe the Treasurer of the Province of Ontario has an obligation to be here today to defend his policies with regard to this particular legislation. The minister who is before us is dealing only with the application of the legislation, how it will be applied, including the force in the province, rather than the policy considerations that resulted in the legislation coming forward from the cabinet. I think at this time we should in fact be dealing with the policy, what the policy really is of the government and what the intention of this legislation is supposed to be." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Bankrupt!" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "That’s what the first speaker was." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "I think it would serve the government well if the Treasurer were to find the time to come into the Legislature and to listen to the reasons why other people here feel that perhaps this is not an appropriate way to deal with a very severe problem in this province.", "I want to state right off the bat, Mr. Speaker, that we will oppose the legislation. We will oppose the legislation because it is not the kind of thing that should be done in the Province of Ontario if the government’s intention is to eliminate both speculation and land holdings of foreigners in Ontario.", "The Legislature set up a select committee and that select committee studied the matter of the foreign land holdings in the Province of Ontario. In fact, the current member in the chair is the chairman of that committee. The committee studied at some length the impact of foreign ownership of land in the Province of Ontario. The committee gave a great deal of consideration and produced a report, the entire report being some 60 pages long, dealing entirely with the matter of foreign ownership of land, foreign ownership of real estate.", "The committee considered whether or not there should be a tax applied to the foreign ownership at the time of sale and the committee rejected it as being an unworkable and an unnecessary way to do business. The committee rejected it, saying --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. W. Martel (Sudbury East)", "text": [ "Did the minister read the report?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "-- that the time had come in Ontario for us to reclaim for Ontarians and future Ontarians the ownership of land in this province.", "The committee went on to say it believed that it was necessary to put a stop to the further purchase of land by non-residents and by foreigners in the Province of Ontario. That was after careful deliberation. That was after the committee had taken the time to hear many representations from many representatives of a number of groups across the Province of Ontario. The committee had the benefit of the expert advice, the best advice available, in the province. The committee came to a number of conclusions and the government has decided, for reasons which I can’t understand, to completely --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Ignore." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "-- ignore the recommendations and conclusions reached by that committee. I happen to be a member of that committee, as is my colleague from Sudbury who will speak, and I know the member for York Centre wants to speak. I want to say that that committee’s recommendations were far-reaching. If that committee’s recommendations had been followed, this particular tax would not have been brought forward by the government at this time.", "The member for Kitchener says that it will become a cost of doing business in the province of Ontario. A 20 per cent tax at this time will not only become a cost of doing business, it will be a force that will increase the cost of land and holdings in Ontario.", "The 20 per cent tax, rather than being a deterrent against the purchase of property, will become simply a built-in cost that will add to the inflationary spiral of land costs in this province. And it is not going to solve the problem. It’s not even going to begin to solve the problem. In fact, it could be fair to say that this is going to add to the problem; it is going to add to the inflationary spiral and it is going to increase the cost of land in Ontario. And this is exactly the opposite to what the government has stated its intentions to be.", "We will oppose it because it is basically wrong, it is silly and it doesn’t meet the objectives of the government in providing any kind of stop to the spiralling costs.", "If this government had taken even a moment to read the recommendations of the committee, if this government had honestly believed that the setting up of that select committee was a worthwhile endeavour and that the time spent by the members of the Legislature in studying this matter deserved even a tiny consideration, then they could never have come down with this kind of legislation.", "What did the committee recommend? I think this is important and germane to the argument that we are going to have. Let me refer all members of the House to the interim report of the select committee, dated 1973, on foreign ownership of Ontario real estate. It deals specifically with this very problem." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "It’s signed by seven Tories." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "And let me read from page 53 in the summary of recommendations:", "“Ownership of real estate by individuals:", "“1. The committee recommends, subject to recommendation 2, that all future transfers of legal or equitable (including leasehold) interests in real property in Ontario to individuals, directly or indirectly, be restricted to Canadian citizens and landed immigrants resident in Canada.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Did the minister hear that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "That’s point No. 1." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "And it was signed by seven Tories." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "This bill doesn’t even begin to deal with that.", "“2. The committee recommends that individuals who are neither Canadian citizens nor resident landed immigrants be entitled to lease real property in Ontario for a maximum period of one year without option of renewal being included in the arrangement.", "“3. The committee recommends that persons who, subsequent to the implementation of recommendation 1, acquire real property in Ontario (other than by short-term lease) as landed immigrants resident in Canada, and who subsequently lose their resident landed immigrant status other than by becoming Canadian citizens, be required to dispose of property so acquired, within three years of the effective date of their change in status.", "“4. The committee recommends that individuals otherwise ineligible to acquire real property in Ontario who are designated as beneficiaries of real property in Ontario under a will or intestacy be required to dispose of the property so acquired within three years.", "“5. The committee recommends that municipalities in Ontario be empowered to levy a surcharge of up to 50 per cent of the real property tax otherwise applicable in respect of land owners in Ontario not ordinarily resident in Canada.", "“6. The committee recommends that the policy and practice with respect to real estate on which property tax obligations are in default be reviewed with particular attention to public advertisement, notification to adjoining owners, auctioning and tendering, and uniformity of procedure.”", "I’ll go on in a moment, but at the outset I want to suggest to the government that if it is their intention to reclaim for Ontario the land that rightfully belongs to us, then these are the kinds of recommendations and the kinds of actions that have to be undertaken.", "And if it is their intention to drive down the cost of land in the Province of Ontario, to decrease the cost of real estate in the Province of Ontario, then adding a 20 per cent tax isn’t going to do it, and we are opposed to it.", "If there is any value at all in using the tax mechanisms of the province to drive down the cost of land, then the only way they will be effective is if the tax is 100 per cent, and anything less than 100 per cent becomes a cost of doing business in the Province of Ontario. This 20 per cent will simply mean that land and property which was previously at a level almost out of the reach of anyone in the Province of Ontario will have, as an additional cost, 20 per cent added on. And we don’t see that as being a worthwhile way to deal with what has become a major problem confronting most, if not all, of the residents.", "Under the area of commercial and corporate real estate ownership, the committee made further recommendations; and we numbered them starting at No. 7, again on page 53:", "“7. The committee recommends, subject to recommendation 8, that all future acquisitions of land in Ontario other than by individuals be restricted to corporations or ventures not less than 75 per cent owned by Canadian citizens or landed immigrants resident in Canada.”", "That is not being done by this bill.", "“8. The committee recommends that corporations less than 75 per cent owned by Canadian citizens or resident landed immigrants, who can establish that it is bona fide in the nature of their business to acquire land on a regular basis for real estate development or finance, have the option of becoming 75 per cent owned by Canadian citizens or resident landed immigrants as a condition of being entitled to continue to acquire land during the period required to obtain a fair price for the corporation’s shares on the Canadian market.”", "And that is not being done by this bill.", "“9. The committee recommends that corporations or ventures less than 75 per cent owned by Canadian citizens or resident landed immigrants be entitled to obtain leasehold interest in land in Ontario on terms appropriate to their commercial needs.”", "And that is not being done by this bill of this government.", "I turn to No. 11 -- they all are applicable, but they don’t all have to be read into the record:", "“11. The committee recommends that foreign ownership of or investment in real estate other than land in Ontario should be investigated further as a priority matter, with a specific view to assessing the desirability of extending the committee’s recommendations regarding commercial and corporate ownership of land to all real property in the province. A study should include examination of:", "“(a) the role of foreign investment in the behaviour and performance of markets for and development of real estate other than land in Ontario;", "“(b) the extent and nature of Ontario’s requirements, if any, for foreign capital for real estate development;", "“(c) the other various aspects of foreign ownership of or investment in real property other than land identified in the foregoing discussion.”", "And that didn’t take place! And that should have taken place! And that should have been one of the priority matters of the government if it really believes as a government that there is a need to do something in Ontario about the rapidly escalating costs of real property and land and the inflationary spiral that is forcing many Ontario citizens to the wall with regard to their inability to meet their commitments to provide basic shelter for their families.", "I want to tell you, Mr. Speaker, that I seriously wonder now at the value of the study that was conducted by this committee.", "This committee conducted a study I suspect unlike any ever conducted by any committee of this Legislature heretofore. I think it fair to say that there was more time and effort put into the compilation of the reports of this committee than any other single committee that ever was struck by this Legislature.", "We sat for days and days on end, just on land alone. We met with people who expressed any interest at all in the problem of land.", "We met with developers; we met with builders; we met with speculators; we met with financiers. We spoke to people outside of the country about the impact of the proposals we were making. We spoke to them in Switzerland, because it was important. We spoke to them in New York, because it was important. We wanted to see the impact of what we were going to do and what we were going to recommend.", "We attempted to come up with recommendations which would protect the interest of Ontario against the intrusion -- the unwarranted, unjustified and unnecessary intrusion -- of financiers from outside of Canada. We came down, we believe, with recommendations which, if implemented by this government, would have made this kind of tax unnecessary; they would have made this kind of move by the government completely and totally out of character with what we were trying to get.", "It’s hard to convince the government, obviously, that the impact of what it is doing is going to be exactly the opposite of what it intends. What’s going to happen in Ontario is that those people who already have sufficient capital to invest and who are outside the Province of Ontario and outside the Dominion of Canada as investors are simply going to add on the additional cost of doing business here, and when the time comes to pass it on to the Ontario resident; that will be a cost which we in Ontario will have to bear.", "That will be a cost which will be built in in the final analysis. The minister shakes his head and holds his arms up." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "On a point of order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "On a point of order?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "It’s really quite contrary to the point I have already made. If a foreign investor comes in on this basis to develop lands for the benefit of Canadians or Canadian residents, we will give him a waiver of that tax. If he eventually does meet his commitment and sells to Canadian residents, the tax will be written off. There will be no obligation, not even interest." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "The problem --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. D. Kennedy (Peel South)", "text": [ "It is obvious the member hasn’t read the bill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "We have read the bill and I understand the bill.", "The point the minister makes is wrong. That’s not what is going to happen, because the speculator in land invariably turns the land over from time to time through other speculative processes. It goes from the speculator to the developer and there will be no appreciation of value. There will be no development taking place. There has never been in the past; there is not going to be in the future. The speculator in land who is going to be --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "We are not talking about the speculation tax." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "We are. We are talking about the foreign holdings and it will include the speculators in lands. It will include the speculators. What’s going to happen is that they are going to develop a process whereby when they turn the land or the property or whatever over from their holding company to the Canadian operation or to the operation here that cost will become a cost added into the cost of doing business.", "It will inflate the price of property in the Province of Ontario. It will not deflate it. Even in the case of the speculator, even in the case where the land is sold from foreign hands to foreign hands, that cost will be built in. That will establish the market value. This is what I am trying to get through to the minister.", "As those properties change hands and that cost becomes a built-in cost, that cost will be part of the basis of establishing market value in the Province of Ontario. It will have an impact, an upward thrust, on the value of property. When the foreign speculator or investor sells his land to another foreign speculator or investor and is forced to pay the tax -- or in reverse when it’s sold from Canadian to foreign hands and there has to be a tax paid -- that tax will be added in. That will then become the value of the property for the next sale.", "It will continue the upward escalation of prices; and that’s where the minister is wrong. That’s where the tax isn’t going to work and that’s why we say that is not the way in which to deal with the problem. If the minister could prove to me there was going to be a two-pricing system in the Province of Ontario whereby those who were involved and had this tax applied against the sale would have a higher price to pay or would be unable to absorb the cost into the final value, okay. But he can’t do that, because no matter what the costs are they become the costs to everyone else and it simply means there will be a larger profit which will take into account what would normally be a 20 per cent tax as set out in the bill.", "The minister is wrong in the way in which he sees the tax working. I don’t doubt for a moment that he envisages it as working differently, but it can’t.", "Mr. Speaker, to go on. The committee of which the member for --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)", "text": [ "Sudbury East?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "No, the chairman." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Northumberland (Mr. Rowe)." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "The committee of which the member for Northumberland was the chairman undertook to try to meet the problems. It undertook to try to come up with recommendations which would have met not only this particular problem but many of the other problems involving both land speculation and foreign holdings of real estate in the Province of Ontario. If this government had had any intention at all of meeting its commitments to the people of the province, they would have followed the recommendations.", "But the government wasn’t in the business of trying to meet its commitments to the people of the province. The government seems, these days, to be in the business of trying to sell to the people of Ontario, by way of great press statements, the idea they’re doing something about the housing needs while in fact they are playing the game alongside the speculator.", "This government, in fact, has even been part of the speculation in the Province of Ontario. This government has, over the years, steadfastly refused to use the lands which it held within Ontario Housing Corp. to pressure down the cost of land in the Province of Ontario. Even though these things were brought to its attention, this government has never recognized its obligation to put an end to speculation in the essentials. This government has never taken a step to try to end, once and for all, the speculative impact of people who have no interest in the welfare of the province, reaping from the public massive amounts of money without any substantial input into the economy. This is where the problem really lies.", "I’m going to tell you Mr. Speaker, unless the government is prepared to put an end to speculation in land -- an end to it -- unless the government is prepared to make the tax on speculation so severe as to make speculation unprofitable, then it will continue. It will continue here in this bill, and it will continue in the companion legislation, Bill 25.", "I’m not the only one who thinks that the speculator is going to find ways of building this particular tax into the final sale price. Everyone else believes it. Even those dealing in land believe that this will be built in.", "Let me read something to you, Mr. Speaker, if I can find it. I just can’t pick out the spot but there is an article in the Financial Post of April 20 which says, “but few expect the tax to reduce prices in the near future.” I can’t just pick it out, but it says that it will become a cost of doing business in Ontario and that the speculator in land and the foreign holders of land will simply add that tax in.", "I ask the minister, I ask him seriously: Does the government intend to stop foreign ownership of land in Ontario?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "That is the issue. That is really the issue." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Is it the intention of the government to put an end to foreign ownership of land in Ontario? Because that’s the key question.", "If it’s the intention of the government to put an end to foreign ownership then you simply stop it by law, Mr. Speaker, and you don’t run the risk of further escalating prices by way of an additional tax which by the government’s own statement really is not intended to yield much by way of revenue in any event.", "If the government doesn’t intend to stop speculation in Ontario then it must stop playing games with the public. It must not pretend these two taxing measures are going to suddenly reap for the public of Ontario a great benefit with regard to a reduction in realty costs, because the real estate agents don’t believe it, the developers don’t believe it, the speculators don’t believe it and the public doesn’t believe it.", "If the minister honestly feels there is a need to put an end to what has become one of the greatest single problems confronting Ontario residents, particularly young people, then I suggest to him that he withdraw this bill and come back into the Legislature with a bill that will say clearly and equivocally that we will not permit any further foreign investment in Ontario and that we will put an end to the speculative aspects of the moneys already here. Thank you." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Before the hon. member for York Centre proceeds, perhaps I might be granted a moment to inform the House that in the name of Her Majesty, the Queen, the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor has been pleased to assent to certain bills in her chambers." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "The Clerk Assistant", "text": [ "The following are the titles of the bills to which Her Honour has assented:", "Bill 20, An Act to amend the Farm Products Grades and Sales Act.", "Bill 27, An Act to amend the Retail Sales Tax Act." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for York Centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Speaker. I find this bill one of the most maddening pieces of legislation that has ever been brought before this House. It is another example of a government sham or pretence of accomplishing something it knows the public wants to see achieved. It knows the public is concerned about the fact that foreigners are second only to this government in fanning and fuelling the fires of land speculation.", "This government is buying up land and putting funds in the hands of those who have found out ahead of time where it is going to buy and then allowing them to go and buy new areas of land. This government has failed to recognize that only when there is a surplus of a product will there not be speculation.", "What bothers me here is that the government is trying to pretend that it is concerned, as was the select committee, about foreign buying of land in Canada and is making it more difficult for Canadians to own their own country." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well, the Liberals welcomed it on budget day. They welcomed it. They applauded the government on budget day." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "In principle." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "They are all over the ball park." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "They applauded them for both taxes on budget day." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "They welcomed the tax, and they were going to support it." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "No, we said --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "Who has got the floor?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The hon. member for York Centre has the floor." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "Thank you." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "They’re the greatest flip-flop artists around." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order please; order.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Twenty minutes ago they were going to support the bill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order. The hon. member for York Centre has the floor." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Twenty minutes ago they were supporting the bill.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. A. Grossman (Provincial Secretary for Resources Development)", "text": [ "Next budget, when the press asks for comment, wait 24 hours." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "What to say is: “Maybe.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Say to them, “I’ll tell you in a few hours.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "It didn’t even take that long." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "The thing that bothers --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Know what I am doing now? I am taking a couple of headache pills. The hon. member is giving me a headache." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "Well, I am glad the hon. member is buying a foreign pill.", "The thing that really concerns me here is that surely some of the people who are taken in by this sort of pretence might be some members of our own party.", "The public as a whole is very conscious of the need to restrict buying of land to Canadians. But just because we happen to have a huge land mass in this country doesn’t mean that we have an unlimited supply of land for the purposes that we want as Canadians -- for example, building sites, recreational cottage lots and recreational land. Indeed, there is a definite restricted availability of such sites in this province. We know that other countries throughout the world are recognizing that unless they own their own land they indeed are going to be threatened with losing their sovereignty over the land they are supposed to have.", "Our select committee recognized the need not to discourage development of housing or other developments that would add to the economic activity and strength of our province. It recognized there are alternatives to owning land, that in most cases the only reason foreigners are anxious to own land is so that they can ride up with the inflation in land values that this government has caused by its policies over the last 20 years. In fact, there are many examples of excellent developments carried out by all types of investors, of improvements to properties, buildings and different deals on land-lease deals.", "No impediment is caused by the fact that one cannot own the property outright -- none at all. There are all kinds of ways for improvements to properties to be made by those who bring in capital from outside this country, as well as those who have ordinary domestic capital to develop and improve property. There is no reason why we should fear the results of outright prohibition of land ownership by foreigners and non-resident Canadians.", "I want to indicate that this government has really pulled the wool over the eyes of the people of this province by this device of a transfer tax, hoping that it will indeed make people feel it is recognizing a problem of foreign ownership of land and doing something about it. It isn’t. It is a sham. It is a shell.", "It is going to be ineffective, and particularly ineffective because it is dealing with a situation at this time where there is a shortage of building sites and there is a shortage of recreational land. And under these circumstances all that happens in a situation where it is a sellers’ market is that prices have increased so that any cost such as this tax imposes is just passed on to the buyer.", "Surely this government can find better ways to get revenues than this, because this is not going to do anything except penalize the end buyer; the person who is trying to rent an apartment or is leasing space or accommodation. We are only making it possible, by what we are doing here, for the government to pretend it is doing something when, in fact, it isn’t doing anything at all to help the basic problem we face in Ontario from foreign ownership of land. And it is for that reason I certainly feel this bill is a fraud and a deceit." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Sudbury East." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I must say before I get into the principle of this bill, that I watched with amazement this morning the transition that took place to my right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Kennedy", "text": [ "Don’t be surprised any more." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "The far right -- I think it is even further right than the Conservative Party if that is possible -- but it took place again this morning, much like the teachers. Within 20 minutes after my colleague, the member for Wentworth, started to speak, they had decided they would flip-flop. The welcome of the bill by the leader of the Liberal Party the other day was gone, the remarks of the member for Kitchener were gone, and we heard the last speaker. They were in --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "Did the member for Sudbury East hear the first speaker support the bill?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Did I support the bill?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Yes, the member for Kitchener didn’t say he was going to welcome it; in fact he was very careful not to indicate where he was going to stand on it. He wanted to find out which way the political winds were going to go before he would take a position; and that is typically Liberal. It is called flexibility." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Why doesn’t the member for Sudbury East speak on the bill?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "They call it something else." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Middle of the road, isn’t it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I want to tell you that I oppose the bill. After a year of study on this, I guess, it is amazing. I am absolutely convinced not a cabinet minister read the bill or the select committee report." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. Haggerty (Welland South)", "text": [ "The member doesn’t want any controls at all, does he?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "The member for Welland South will hear what I want in a few moments. Don’t get excited; he will hear what I want in a few moments." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "The member is opposed to any controls at all; that is what he is telling" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "No, I am not opposed to controls." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "That is what the member for Sudbury East just got through saying." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "If the member for Welland South will just restrain himself for a few moments, just a couple of moments, I will get to what our position is.", "Mr. Speaker, after a year --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Kennedy", "text": [ "It would be nice to know." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Well, the member for Peel South should know; he was on the committee.", "After a year of study, my colleague indicated what the recommendations were by the select committee -- an 11-man committee made up of seven Conservatives, who supported the recommendations --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Kennedy", "text": [ "Some of them; some of the recommendations." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. L. M. Reilly (Eglinton)", "text": [ "Some of them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "I am sure the member for Peel South who is now interjecting --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York North)", "text": [ "There were some dissenters." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "I am coming to that. I wanted to make sure I cleared that up -- there were some dissenters -- but the overall principle of the report was accepted by all the members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "The member for Sudbury East is one of those who dissented." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "That’s right, and I want to tell the member that I further dissent to this bill. The important thing is, though, that despite some dissent -- in fact I want to read one of the dissents, Mr. Speaker. It will show you how ludicrous the position of the Minister of Revenue is. These are dissenting opinions of Messrs. Kennedy, Newman, Rowe and Walker. And do you know what they were dissenting to, Mr. Speaker? Listen to this: “In our view it would be improper to levy a surcharge of the sort proposed on non-resident taxpayers.”", "They didn’t want a surcharge on non-resident taxpayers for recreational land. What the government is doing is it is imposing 20 per cent -- and are the members going to support it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Kennedy", "text": [ "That’s individual existing recreational cottage areas. The member is all mixed up between the report and the bill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "I will read the rest, Mr. Speaker: “Non-resident land owners are in effect tourists, who when visiting Canada do contribute to the general revenues of all three levels of government.”", "What difference does that make if they buy it tomorrow? What difference does it make if under the new bill they are going to pay 20 per cent more for the right to purchase property in Ontario? But the government is dissenting to anything." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Kennedy", "text": [ "Does the member want to practise discrimination right now?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Well, the government is practising discrimination. It is going to discriminate against anyone why buys land in Ontario tomorrow." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Kennedy", "text": [ "Yes, but --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "The government can’t have it both ways." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Kennedy", "text": [ "But that is known in advance. The member can’t have it both ways." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "That’s known in advance? It’s going to be interesting, Mr. Speaker, to see where these four gentlemen vote." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Kennedy", "text": [ "No problem." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "It is really going to be interesting, Mr. Speaker, because you hear the member for Peel South, as he argues this 50 per cent surcharge suggested by the committee is discriminatory and he is now saying it’s okay to put 20 per cent on though. If that’s not discriminatory, I wonder what you call it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Kennedy", "text": [ "It is not in unfair taxes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "It goes on to say --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Kennedy", "text": [ "The member has an obsession." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "-- “a surcharge which would fall on non-Canadians who own vacation lands in this country would be discriminatory.”", "The same would apply to those businessmen then who bought land and had to pay 20 per cent more. Wouldn’t that be discriminatory? The government is all over the ball park." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Kennedy", "text": [ "Applying that surcharge on a few people is frivolous." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Isn’t that interesting? It’s going to be interesting to see whether the member for Peel South votes for discrimination or not. The member for Victoria-Haliburton (Mr. R. G. Hodgson) is enjoying this because he supported the recommendations of this report, all of them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Kennedy", "text": [ "Just a frivolous levy." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Why did we oppose any more foreign domination? It is unfortunate the member for Welland South is not in his seat, because I want to make the point, as my colleague from Wentworth did, that the question is a very simple one: Do we allow more takeover by the foreign sector of land in", "Ontario? The select committee said no on all counts.", "It’s obvious the Minister of Revenue did not read the report. It’s obvious his advisers didn’t take time to look at what an 11-man committee of this Legislature, who had counsel and who had researchers to work with them, recommended. In fact, the last recommendation of this report states, and I want to put it on the record because it’s very important:", "“The committee recommends review and implementation of its recommendations as a matter of urgency and priority, and that consideration be given to the early promulgation of a date on which the implementation of the committee’s recommendations would take effect.”", "The minister has ignored it in totality. Who in God’s name on that committee of his or in the Treasury even looked at this report? Who looked at it? Who looked at the recommendations of an 11-man committee who had counsel themselves, who had a research staff themselves, and for over a year wrestled with this problem, bringing in everyone who had a say at all? My friend, the member for Peel South, knew what we haggled about and what we finally decided it was based on.", "Let me put a paragraph from the report on the record." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Kennedy", "text": [ "Would the member permit a question?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Kennedy", "text": [ "A few minutes ago the member said that the committee agreed on all counts. Does he mean by that on all classes of real estate?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "No. On the principle of land ownership, on the basic principle. There was some difference of opinion on commercial land." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Kennedy", "text": [ "Well now, the member is misleading this House because --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "On the basic principle." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Peel South is out of order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Kennedy", "text": [ "On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. member, with all respect, is misleading the House, because he implies that the 11-man committee agreed on all counts if he said the words which I think he means -- “all categories of land.” There was substantial dissent with respect to commercial and industrial lands. I think that should go on the record for clarification." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "He wasn’t implying it; he was explicitly asserting." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "He said it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "He was giving the impression of some other things." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, let me say that on page 12 --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Kennedy", "text": [ "Do you accept that point of order, Mr. Speaker?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "-- is one of the things that decided the committee’s eventual report. It says:", "“On the other hand, the committee does not feel the issue of foreign ownership of land or other real estate is appropriately dealt with merely by arriving at a judgement about the present level and significance of land holdings. Attaining optimal development and land utilization for the people of Ontario and Canada demands long-term perspectives and solutions. The committee is of the view that the nature and patterns of foreign demand for real estate in Ontario merit careful consideration in this context.”", "A 20 per cent surcharge isn’t going to do a thing about it.", "I’m not sure if the minister is aware that immediately to the south of us -- and this is one of the things which impressed the committee -- is a population of 100 million Americans -- just immediately to the south of us in the “golden horseshoe” area -- who have as much leisure time as Canadians, higher wages, more disposable income, and who in fact are screaming for land. One hundred million!", "I’m wondering again if the minister is aware that certain countries, such as Germany, provide special tax laws which encourage the purchase of land in other countries and give concessions for that purchase back in their own state, such as Germany.", "My friend the member for Victoria-Haliburton knows. He has whole townships tied up by German capital because they have special tax laws in Germany which encourage the purchase of land in Ontario or in countries other than their own. It’s a very easy matter for those laws in Germany to be modified to take into account the 20 per cent and it won’t change a thing. When this report was being drafted one thing taken into consideration was the amount of money for investment that the Arab world has now and the fact that they are looking for investments and looking for an outlet." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "So long as they don’t buy in Forest Hill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "That’s a problem." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "They just might." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "That’s exactly the problem." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "The point is, we have tremendous masses to the south with more money. What happens when they start buying land for any purpose? Recreational land for private individuals is not stopped." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "No, it’s the oil wells." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "They can pay more because they have more disposable income. What does that do for the population of Ontario and for Canada if Canadians, other than those dwelling in Ontario, want to purchase land in Ontario? What happens to that land as it is being driven up because Americans have more money to spend? The 20 per cent isn’t going to do it. They’ll be willing to pay the 20 per cent because they haven’t got land in the United States. They must come here.", "We’re talking about 100 million immediately to the south of us and we’re talking about a population of 200 million. What happens with the special tax laws of other countries which encourage investment in Ontario in the form of real estate?", "One wonders again, as my colleague said earlier, what good is the select committee? Is it just to appease the public because we’re studying it? Are any of the recommendations of a select committee ever taken seriously? We spend $1 million to prepare reports and these two bills, particularly the one we’re debating today, fly totally in the face of the report. Why have it? It’s a waste of time.", "Mr. Speaker, I just want to quote a few sections from this. It says:", "“An important source of foreign demand, as is widely known, is the United States. Two facts place the issue in stark perspective: the states neighbouring Ontario are among the most populous in the United States and the wealthiest in the world.”", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Well, if the member thinks 20 per cent is going to prevent them from buying into Canada or into Ontario, he is whistling in the dark. It goes on:", "“Over 100 million persons live in the northeast and north-central regions of the United States adjacent to Ontario, and with the exception of California, these areas have the highest incomes in the world.", "“For other reasons too, Ontario and Canada are and have been attractive places to buy land; and for real estate in general. From a general business standpoint, Ontario has been and is a desirable place to establish business operations.", "“Further, particularly in or near urban regions, investment in real estate in Ontario has been attractive to both foreign and domestic investors. In particular, British, other European and Japanese investors, encouraged by substantial upward revaluation of their currency relative to the Canadian dollar, are active participants in Ontario real estate markets.", "“All these factors translate into significant foreign demand for land and buildings in Ontario, and point to an acceleration rather than an abatement of the acquisition of Ontario real estate by non-Canadians, The nature and implications of developing patterns and trends of foreign ownership are considered below.”", "And I’ll just put on the record, Mr. Speaker, if I might, a couple of figures I had with respect to who owns what and where the investment lies. Well, I’ll come to them in a moment.", "For example, on page 27, it says:", "“Representatives of the Urban Development Institute estimated before the committee that of the order of 50 per cent of the developable land in zone 1 of the Toronto-centred region is owned by foreign- owned developers.” [Fifty per cent in the Toronto-centred region is foreign owned.]", "“For example, it was given in evidence before the committee that 95 per cent of the property managed by the Metropolitan Trust Co. is foreign owned.”", "Does the minister think 20 per cent is going to change any of that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Is the member suggesting we expropriate them?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "No, I am suggesting --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Confiscate them?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Well, there is a recommendation in here --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "What does the member suggest?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Did the minister read the report?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Yes, I have read some sections of it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "The report? Even the recommendations? Did he read them? Because there is a recommendation which says that they would have three years. It says:", "“The committee recommends that individuals” [and the same could apply to corporations] “otherwise ineligible to acquire real property in Ontario who are designated as beneficiaries of real estate property in Ontario under a will or intestacy be required to dispose of the property so acquired in three years.”", "Or the minister could do the other thing that we have discussed, that I --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Now members opposite are against that too." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Yes, there are always a few who are not very bright." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Or he could do as recommendation No. 8 says.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "But the committee recommended it.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "The minister couldn’t even convince his own colleagues that we were wrong." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Recommendation No. 8 could take care of that. He could do that with real estate." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "He couldn’t convince them we were wrong." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "I convinced them members opposite were wrong, that was no problem." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Recommendation No. 8 says:", "“The committee recommends that corporations less than 75 per cent owned by Canadian citizens or resident landed immigrants, who can establish that it is bona fide in the nature of their business to acquire land on a regular basis for real estate development or finance, have the option of becoming 75 per cent owned by Canadian citizens or resident landed immigrants as a condition of being entitled to continue to acquire land during the period required to obtain a fair price for the corporations’ shares on the Canadian market.”", "The member didn’t read this report; it is obvious. It is so obvious. It is pathetic that he would be in here trying to sell us a bill when he doesn’t even know what the select committee that studied the situation for a year discovered." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "And when the Treasurer says this is on interim step towards serious consideration of these propositions." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "He has gone by some adviser. Could the minister not at least take into consideration his cabinet colleague, the Minister of Housing (Mr. Handleman). The Minister of Housing signed this report along with the rest of us before he became Minister of Housing. He is vitally concerned with land. Why isn’t he here today?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "And he didn’t dissent." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "In fact he wrote that he was not dissenting to all of the content in this report. He is the man now responsible for housing. I’m wondering when the Treasurer and the Minister of Revenue drafted the bill if they consulted the Minister of Housing. I suspect they didn’t, because he agreed with everything in the report, and there is a statement in this report to that effect. He recognized, as others of us did, that it is a fundamental question: Do we allow more intrusion into Canada and into Ontario of foreign interests in the real estate field?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Or do we say: “You can intrude if you can afford it,” because that is what this minister is saying: “Intrude all you want as long as you pay the tax.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "The Minister of Housing said no. He said we can’t." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "He’s crazy." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "He said we have to make sure there is land in perpetuity in our area and that we, in fact, will lease lands. If you will look on pages 57 to 59, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Housing indicated that he supported every principle in this bill. There was only one thing he cautioned about. He said let’s do it slowly and let’s make sure that we have a study and know what we are doing.", "It is obvious, Mr. Speaker, he wasn’t consulted. In fact it is obvious that he was excluded from discussions, because the bill flies in the face of everything that he as Minister of Housing signed -- not as Minister of Housing at the time, he has since come into that portfolio. But he, like the rest of us, after over a year of study recognized what the problem was about." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "I thought the member said not a single cabinet minister read that report." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "He wasn’t a cabinet minister at the time. That’s why I say the Minister of Revenue must have excluded him from the discussions, because he wouldn’t have -- did he support the bill by the way?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Oh sure!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Tell us about the cabinet discussions." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "He supported the bill?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "We all supported the bill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Tell us about the discussions about the percentages." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, there are so many reasons. We had before us so many people, and we ultimately came down to this decision that all land would either be leased or would be owned by Canadians and landed immigrants. For business purposes, corporations, whether commercial or industrial, could lease land from Canadians. In fact we were told as a committee over and over again that in Britain, and to a greater extent in the United States today, corporations aren’t buying land. They are leasing land on long-term leases. They don’t even attempt to purchase the land any longer.", "Mr. Speaker you could go on and on listing the reasons the committee came to the conclusion it did. To have the government simply fly in the face of these reports, this study, these recommendations -- one would like to get into the cabinet room just once to hear what type of discussions this would be." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "The member will never get the chance to do that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Whether it was the Treasurer or the Premier (Mr. Davis) saying: “That’s it. This is the way it will be accepted.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Is the member sure he just wants to get in once?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Just once -- that would be enough. I’d like to hear what went on in this one." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Some day in the future he may have an opportunity. That’s all he needs is one opportunity -- that’s all the public will go for. If he gets in there once they’ll throw him out." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Actually he is just angling for a cabinet post. He wants this kind of public commitment.", "The member for Sudbury East has it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Have I got it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "He has it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Thank you.", "It is hard to understand how the government arrives at this sort of legislation. Is it the politicians who decide it; or some backroom boy? Or is it civil servants? Who decides these things when an 11-man committee of this Legislature makes a recommendation or a series of recommendations?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "Way down in Fort Lauderdale." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Is that where it was made?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "Yes sure, down there -- that highrise complex." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Condominium." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "It was made on a trip through the Black Forest." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "You know, Mr. Speaker, as we put this all together it was intriguing. We had before us all of the various people representing the major corporations involved in commercial and industrial development and for two days we tried to get answers from them -- answers as to how much land they held. You couldn’t. Ask the Minister of Housing. For two days we tried to find out about their financing and at the end of two days we were left in the cold.", "We tried to find out how much --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "The investigation was very poorly done, because the list of land available was made public about five or six months ago. Does the member remember, at the invitation of the federal minister we did it, the city did it and then he didn’t provide the member with it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Oh yes. Oh yes.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "I know he is talking, but I want to just correct that statement by the minister.", "It says:", "“To the committee’s knowledge” [and we had our research staff do it and we had our legal counsel do it] “no systematic and comprehensive study of the extent and pattern of foreign ownership of real property in the province has been undertaken.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "They weren’t talking about foreign ownership. They are referring to the land that the Minister of Housing should have available to him --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Oh no; oh no." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "No, no, no." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Let the minister go back and read his paper." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "I am reading the member’s speech." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Well, read my speech then." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "A previous one." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "We attempted to find out how much land was in the developers’ hands, not for commercial purposes in the sense of commercial buildings but for housing. The figures varied depending on which group you were talking to.", "In fact the committee, at the end of two days, was absolutely frustrated, and you know it was because we couldn’t get a handle on any of this. It is because, as the report states, there is no study of land in foreign ownership. It is because of the amount that we know is there in certain key areas and in certain key sectors. It is because we know that special tax laws are made abroad to encourage investment here. And finally it is because we know there are so many people to the south of us that we came through with these recommendations.", "I suggest to the minister that before he goes any further with this bill that he in fact consults, at least, with his seven colleagues on his side of the House who sat in on this committee for over a year looking at land. The minister shouldn’t just go by maybe a few civil servants, maybe some backroom boy. Why doesn’t he sit down with his colleagues over supper some night -- like tonight -- and ask why three of them endorsed every recommendation here? Three -- and the other four were split on certain recommendations, but nonetheless the overall import of the report they agreed to.", "I suggest that if the minister did this, he would by next Monday withdraw this bill and he would come in with a bill designed to protect land -- and by that I mean stating categorically landed immigrants and Canadians are the only ones who own land. That is how we will resolve the problem, otherwise it is just an exercise in futility which is going to drive prices up, because those outside have more money to spend than the citizens of Ontario.", "It is so obvious, you know. In recreational land today even -- in recreational land! They were leasing lots last year in the Parry Sound district -- $400 a year for a leased lot for recreational purposes, because of the type of system the government has introduced; not the lottery but the auction -- there’s a prime example that was proved.", "Land that was leased the year before was 100 bucks, but as people can afford more they continue to drive up the price for recreational land on a year-lease basis, and in the Parry Sound area last year land was leasing at $400 a year. And I suspect it will go up to $500.", "That’s exactly what’s going to happen when the government imposes a 20 per cent tax, because it is just going to drive up prices. It’s unfortunate that the minister doesn’t recognize it -- that before he plunges ahead with this bill he doesn’t at least indicate to this Legislature what he is really trying to accomplish. I am not convinced that it is accomplishing much." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Bring the Treasurer in and make him answer for his sins." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Finally, Mr. Speaker, my colleague the member for Wentworth and I, just feel that any participation in a select committee is an exercise in futility because of this bill.", "We think that any further sittings of the select committee on economic and cultural nationalism should be discontinued. We just think that it’s nothing but a sop to try to appease Canadians who are concerned about foreign domination. The government puts up a facade about it.", "We in northern Ontario recognize that probably more than anyone. It has been window dressing up there for 30 years --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "Just window dressing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "-- and we are absolutely convinced that for us to continue --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Pretty good window, it needs good dressing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "No, the government party won’t have that many seats left come next election." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "My colleague is authorized to tell them I won’t sit again." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "And my colleague, as you have heard Mr. Speaker, suggests that to sit again is absolutely useless because the government doesn’t intend to do anything but mislead the public with various reports. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Any other member wish to speak before the minister replies on Bill 26?", "The hon. minister." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Perhaps before the minister replies --" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Hey, what goes on?" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "What gives?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. A. Stewart (Minister of Agriculture and Food)", "text": [ "They’re afraid they won’t have enough supporters to vote." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "The Liberals are with us now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Riverdale." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. A. C. Auld (Minister of Colleges and Universities)", "text": [ "So what’s new? They’ve been on and off for months." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "They started out supporting us." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Mean", "text": [ "I would like to hear from the member for Riverdale.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "He has nothing to say, but he is having a hard time thinking about it.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. T. P. Reid (Rainy River)", "text": [ "To conclude my remarks --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "To conclude my remarks, since the leader of the party has now arrived, I thank you for the opportunity of participating in this debate.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "This speech will even be better." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, my colleague from Riverdale is reserving his contribution. All of the members in this House are fair minded and will view his remarks on Monday as an appropriate contribution to the debate. My apologies, I had to run out on something rather quickly.", "Mr. Speaker, I want to add my voice to the modest crescendo of opposition that’s mounting to this bill. I think you have got a tremendous hornet’s nest on your hands and the minister hasn’t realized the extent of it. He hasn’t begun to realize to what extent public opposition and political opposition is going to mount -- not only on this bill but on the 50 per cent land speculation bill, because they are both fraudulent. They are both faulty right at the root. Neither of them make any significant contribution to the problems they are allegedly designed to alter, or to correct fundamentally, and that kind of bill in public terms begins to evoke resentment and opposition which ultimately presents the government with a major confrontation. And that’s just what we are now on the verge of.", "I predict that before we have finished these bills, the government is going to find itself in a debate, publicly, the like of which it never believed possible. It will, in fact, compare with the kind of debate we had over the land use legislation and the Niagara Escarpment and the parkway belt west, none of which was anticipated by the government because it assumed simply by introducing those bills it would win sufficient public favour.", "I want to add to the remarks of my colleagues from Wentworth and from Sudbury East in a number of specific ways. We really resent this bill. This bill shouldn’t be in the House. It is a bad piece of legislation; it is a bogus piece of legislation. The government is pretending with this bill; it is toying with the political process more flagrantly in this bill than it has done in almost any other. It is introducing a number of anti-social principles which are of absolutely no use; and I will refer to them in a moment.", "The provincial Treasurer of Ontario brought in his budget about 10 days ago now and in the budget, under the Land Transfer Act section he said:", "“In examining the problem of rapidly rising prices for real property in Ontario, it is becoming increasingly apparent that large scale acquisition of land by non-residents of Canada is a significant factor. The matter of control of non-resident ownership of Canadian land is a current constitutional issue which has not been fully resolved. The problem has been studied, however, and has been reported on recently by Ontario’s select committee on economic and cultural nationalism.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Flew in the face of every report." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "And then what flows within the budget statement in the next half dozen paragraphs is a clear implication, Mr. Speaker, that somehow the recommendations embodied in the select committee’s report are reflected in the tax policy announced by the provincial Treasurer. This statement in the budget is a very clever little piece of duplicity in itself.", "What the budget might have said, to be honest, is that the “select committee on economic and cultural nationalism analysed this subject, investigated it thoroughly, made a number of recommendations and we, the cabinet, have decided to repudiate every single recommendation the select committee made.” That might have been honest, not to say honourable.", "The government chose instead to imply that the select committee’s recommendations were embodied in the legislation which would follow; and that, of course, is not the truth at all.", "As my colleagues have pointed out, particularly the member for Sudbury East, the select committee recommendations in this field were recommendations that were embraced by a number of Conservative backbenchers, including among them men who are now in the cabinet. Let me read to you what the Minister of Housing said very explicitly at the end of the select committee report:", "“On the basis of information available to us both from the evidence given before the committee and from the research conducted by the committee’s staff, we support the comments and recommendations contained in this report.”", "Those were the members for Carleton (Mr. Handleman), Victoria-Haliburton and Humber (Mr. Leluk); three perceptive mortals in this instance. They go on to say:", "“In our view a nation is firmly rooted in its history, its people and its primacy over the land which it occupies. Ownership of Canadian soil by our citizens and those who have committed themselves to this country by immigrating to it, can only strengthen the nation. Perception by the young of the Legislature’s resolve to retain ownership for them of their natural heritage will impress on them the fact that government is for them and their future as well as for the here and now.”", "You know Mr. Speaker, perhaps it is not lyrical, but it is pretty good. It is a pretty assertive statement about the quality of the Canadian identity and about the need to do something for it. Let me point out, Mr. Speaker, that the other members of the committee who were Tories, while they dissented on specific recommendations -- one, two, three or four of them; from time to time -- on balance they embraced the recommendations of the report, the thrust of the document, and certainly the kind of sentiments expressed by the now Minister of Housing and his colleagues.", "I don’t know whether one could say the Minister of Housing is in a conflict of interest. I don’t mean a personal conflict of interest; I mean an intellectual conflict of interest. I tell the government what it is doing in this legislation today damns the recommendations and the position of the Minister of Housing. If in fact it is dealing in matters related to land, it severely compromises him as Minister of Housing in the cabinet now.", "This minister may not have thought of that when he introduced this legislation but that is precisely what he is doing. He is compromising the Minister of Housing hopelessly because he is rejecting the basic foundation of his personal commitment as expressed through the select committee’s report.", "I understand the kind of resentment and frustration which the member for York Centre feels; which the member for Wentworth feels; which the member for Sudbury East feels; maybe to some extent which the member for Victoria-Haliburton feels -- I cannot speak for him. It is the resentment and frustration of having come together, dealt with a subject, dealt with it in good faith and at length, and then having the government introduce legislation which is not only incompatible with the recommendations of the select committee report but in no way reflects their intent.", "If ever the select committee process has been reduced to mockery in this House, it is in this case. That cabinet over there has said to hell with the select committee on economic and cultural nationalism. It has clearly thumbed its nose at it. It again has asked the select committee to indulge in the kind of exercise which is totally futile. The ministers have no blessed respect for the legislative process at all, be it their own backbenchers or the opposition.", "It’s worse still, Mr. Speaker, because as I stand here there is no question in my mind that the recommendations of the select committee on economic and cultural nationalism, where they respected ownership of real estate in Ontario, were simply neither read nor absorbed by those engaged in the policy in this bill. The Minister of Revenue says in that congenial aside of his, “I read some of the recommendations.”", "I’ll tell you, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Revenue did not read this report. He may have read bits of it. He may hurry home and read it now but he’s bringing in a bill which is central to this report and he hasn’t even absorbed it.", "The people in the cabinet live in their own world. That’s why much of it is crumbling around them. They have absolutely no interest in the process and nothing but contempt for the contributions which members make or for the social policy which may flow from select committees or anything else. If ever there was a case of it, it’s right here in this bill.", "Let me go on to another point I wanted to make, Mr. Speaker, on the use of taxation policy. My colleague from Riverdale put it to me very strongly this morning when we were talking about this bill in advance. He was saying to me -- and I might as well put it the way he put it -- the use of taxation policy is normally a revenue-gathering use. It is normally a device for redistributing income, for reapportioning wealth, for budgetary and fiscal matters. The use of tax policy is the central fiscal device which the government has. It is not an appropriate instrument for the implementation of social policy of this kind. It isn’t appropriate in this bill and it isn’t appropriate in the land speculation tax bill.", "As a matter of fact, in neither case does the minister anticipate raising very much revenue, if any. In both cases, he has made provision for returning the revenue raised over an extended period of time if certain requirements are met.", "In other words, he is taking a piece of legislation which is tax legislation and he is trying to serve social ends not fiscal ends. In so doing, he is mocking the effective use of tax statutes, which is essentially a redistributive function out there in the incomes place, and he is trying to achieve certain social objectives which just cannot be achieved through this legislation.", "And as it happens, he has rejected every major recommendation that has been put to him on the question of foreign ownership of land in Ontario. He has rejected it in order to institute a fiscal device that is doomed to failure from the outset.", "So the bill is absurd, and the minister can’t ask us to support it. It is faulty even in its philosophic intent, let alone in its inability to cope with the problems he has laid out. Let me talk about that for a moment.", "The basic principle of the bill is that the minister is instituting a 20 per cent tax on land transfers for those from outside Ontario who would wish to purchase Ontario. All right. What the devil is the minister saying? Let’s clear all the clutter. The minister is saying it is going to cost 20 per cent more to buy Ontario. That is what he is saying. Is that fair?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "That’s right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Isn’t that what this whole idiotic bill says? It says to the American, Swiss and German entrepreneurs: “Look, fellows, do you want to buy us out? Fine, but it is going to cost you 20 per cent more from now on.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "It is crazy." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well, what kind of unutterable doggerel is that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "It is crazy." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "What kind of nonsense is that? We are not going to deter any of the major land developers and entrepreneurs around the world from buying Ontario because it is going to cost them 20 per cent more. They are laughing up their sleeves.", "There was a party on the night of the budget. In fact, I heard about a number of parties on the night of the budget. A number of them were land developers who got together and simply laughed about this bill and about the land speculation bill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "They didn’t even drink. They just laughed." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "They just chuckled, because all the inconvenience it caused them was one phone call to their lawyer late in the afternoon to find out if the loopholes were sufficient. In one bill, the land speculation tax bill, the loopholes are not only sufficient, they are positively an invitation to personal and corporate exemption. And in this bill it may cost them a few dollars more. So what." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "They’ll pay it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "What the minister has done in this bill is he has put up a little sign outside the legislative buildings, symbolic of Ontario, which says: “Ontario for purchase. It costs a little bit more today than it cost last week.”", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "In fact, we’ll make a special deal." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "To pretend that that in some way protects Ontario real estate is like saying to Inco: “You are going to have serious problems with your balance sheet because we are taking a few million dollars more from you next year in resource taxation than we took from you last year.”", "Inco simply builds it into all the other factors that are true of a major corporation, and smiles quietly in the corporate board rooms that the Tories and Inco have again managed to get together in what appears to be a mutually beneficial undertaking. The public may think it has hope, but it has none whatsoever. This bill is absolutely preposterous. My colleague from Riverdale says to me -- is that “even” at the top?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "What he means is, moreover, furthermore or in addition: “The tax they pay in Ontario they will be able to recover by credit in the foreign country from whence they came.” You can see that is from the hon. member for Riverdale, Mr. Speaker, because I never use “whence.” But I point out that the argument that he makes is exactly right.", "As a matter of fact, it wouldn’t surprise me if there was a device in the tax world that would make it profitable for them to pay 20 per cent more in taxes here than in their country of origin." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "If there isn’t one, they’ll find one." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "The select committee pointed that out." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Yes, the select committee did point out there were devices whereby it could be positively profitable." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Germany does it all the time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "If there are German laws, which clearly have been identified by the select committee, that encourage and give special exemptions for the purchase of property outside the country, then presumably the more you pay the higher the exemption." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Absolutely." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "The minister might have to read the report." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I really want to re-emphasize, Mr. Speaker --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Withdraw this bill, for heaven’s sake." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "What the minister is doing in this bill is saying: “We will not change the rules of the game at all.” Ontario is still up for sale. Foreign real estate will continue to dominate in Ontario. The land can be purchased -- commercial, industrial, residential, agricultural -- Ontario is still for sale to the highest bidder. He hasn’t changed social policy one jot. He hasn’t done a single thing to protect this province against foreign ownership of our land. And that is wrong." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "They have further escalated costs." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "That is socially wrong and morally wrong, because the minister knows the way the people of this province feel about our real estate. He knows he should be bringing in legislation to protect the Province of Ontario, not simply to escalate the inflationary speculative dimension of foreign ownership of Ontario’s economy and Ontario’s land.", "As far as we are concerned, this bill is so flawed we wouldn’t give it five minutes’ notice in our caucus. All we were willing to do with it was to talk about the nature of the opposition. The minister couldn’t have sustained the argument with us for a moment.", "My colleague from Wentworth pointed out that the effect, ironically, which resides in this bill, in addition to the other things the minister is doing is that it is going to raise prices of land in Ontario. That is just absurd. I can’t believe that a cabinet gets itself into the position where it brings in a bill the effect of which will be to sell Ontario and to make it cost more for residents of Canada." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "That’s right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Not only is the minister perversely reinforcing the foreign ownership of our land but if we ever buy it back it’s going to cost us 20 per cent more than it would cost us today. He is penalizing Ontario and Canadian residents on that front as well. What perversity compels him to do all this is something I, for one, will never understand.", "Somehow sanity has to take over in that cabinet. Somehow its members have to understand just how destructive they are being, and that they have to respond sensitively and feelingly to the kinds of objections which have been expressed about foreign ownership in Ontario’s land. The only way to make that response, I say to them, is by legislation.", "Mr. Speaker, let me be absolutely specific. There is now significant ownership of the beaches of Lake Erie --" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "By whom?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "-- by foreigners. There may be a few more tracts of land, an occasional frontage, available for public purchase. If the government wants to stop that land from being purchased by foreigners, it has to bring in legislation which says that no non- resident of Canada can own more land on the beaches of Lake Erie. That’s what the legislation has to say." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Furthermore --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "This Act will not do it. This is no deterrent at all.", "Furthermore, it has to bring in an amendment to the Beds of Navigable Waters Act which will allow Canadians or Ontarians access to the beaches of Lake Erie. More than that, it is going to have to expropriate some of that property and, providing due compensation, reinstate for public use what is now in the hands of private cottage owners resident in Buffalo.", "All of these things have to be done if the government is serious about retrieving land for Ontario. The one thing this bill will not do, the one thing it will assuredly not do, is protect Ontario’s real estate.", "That’s the essential sham of the budget. That’s why it is -- and the member for York Centre used quite a legitimate word at the outset of his remarks -- that’s why it is so maddening. For us there is counterpoint of madness -- it’s the capacity of the Liberal Party to take one stand one day and another stand the next." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Quite so." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "It kind of undermines the solidarity its members bring to their passion. It depletes it a little." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "Does it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I understand those problems. On the other hand, it is maddening. The government brings in a budget and the headline quality of the budget is: “Tories in Ontario concerned about land speculation, clap on 50 per cent land speculation tax.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The only way in which one judges a land speculation tax is in the context of housing in Ontario. The land speculation tax isn’t going to put one additional house on the market at a reasonable price. So that whole policy is bogus.", "Then, knowing that there is this kind of consistent theme of unease in the public about foreign control of Ontario, the government brings in a taxing device which says 20 per cent more on purchases of land by non-residents, as if to imply that somehow that’s a protection for Ontario’s real estate -- again, completely bogus.", "The government are the most artful dodgers I have ever seen. It’s catching up with them though. They have fooled too many too often and there is nothing but scepticism out there now for every single policy they introduce -- nothing but scepticism. When the full import of this piece of legislation and other pieces of legislation begin to be felt by the Ontario public, let me say they are coming closer to those numbered days that they have left.", "I simply say in summary, Mr. Speaker, that we will divide the House. We oppose the bill. We will resist it clause by clause, as we have resisted it on second reading. We will make whatever amendments we need make. We want the minister to know that we’re not really interested in his technical, administrative apparatus that he’s got set up to govern this bill. My colleague from Wentworth was right on those grounds as well.", "We never get the minister in here who is responsible for the policy. All we get is the sophisticated bureaucrat. That’s all we have. I don’t mean that in a deprecating way. He is Minister of Revenue and, like his predecessors, all he sees is kind of a nit-picking function. He is here to administer the laws. We can’t discuss social policy with him. This bill is nothing but social policy. The minister has no other point to it. It’s wrong in social policy; it’s wrong-headed.", "I don’t really know why we are debating it with the minister. I suppose we have to debate it with someone, but why with him? I hold no personal malice. They are nice fellows, maybe honourable men and women. So be they all, but they are incapable of responding to social change. That’s their problem, and if ever it was demonstrated it was demonstrated in this piece of legislation.", "The government has made a decision. I don’t know why they made this decision. They have made a calculated decision as a cabinet that they will not protect Ontario’s lands from foreign acquisition. They have made a decision as a cabinet that Ontario’s land is up for ransom to those that pay." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "That is not true." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "It is true." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "They have made a decision as a cabinet that every single policy recommendation --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Is useless." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "-- of the select committee which involves protection of commercial, industrial, recreational, housing or private land is to be repudiated. They have made a decision as a cabinet that they will bring in a taxing device which they know will fail in its objective from the moment they introduce it. They have made a decision as a cabinet that the world can own Ontario and they’ll never move in to protect the residents of this province in terms of future generations." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Not so." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "As long as they pay the price." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "They have said that they have their price and that they are just jacking it up by 20 per cent. They are an extremely cynical and manipulative cabinet." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Stupid is a better word." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "They have made a conscious decision about it because it is --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Not one of them has spoken today." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "-- impossible to construe it otherwise. I’ll tell the minister this as a member of a party which has been torn internally often on questions of foreign ownership, and how far we should go in preserving the Canadian economy and repatriating everything from land to resources. I tell him as a member of this party that we can often be engaged in difficult policy areas, with enormous economic repercussions and all kinds of internal tensions and very great uncertainties, but just as it runs through this party so it runs through the country as a whole that something has to be done to protect our cultural inheritance, of which land is essential, from foreign acquisition. Seven members of the Tories endorsed that in a select committee report." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Not one of them has spoken today." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The government brought in a bill which simply says, “To the devil with all of that. We believe in foreign ownership of Ontario and what’s more, we are simply going to preserve it.” I want to see where those members stand when the vote comes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for High Park." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Shulman (High Park)", "text": [ "Does the member for Victoria-Haliburton want to speak?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson (Victoria-Haliburton)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I just want to take a few minutes. I think what we are doing here is mixing apples and oranges, because our report, in my opinion does not deal with the same principles as being enunciated in this bill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Don’t prostitute yourself." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "I think what is being dealt with in this bill goes a long way to meet some of the concern that we expressed." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "How for example?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Don’t do this to yourself." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "Well, if the members wait a minute maybe I’ll tell them something." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Don’t do this to yourself. You are too nice a guy to go on the hook for that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "You will remember that in our report we mentioned a very vital concern with regard to the recommendations that we were making, and that is the legal basis on the constitutional position with regard to our recommendations and the principles enunciated." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "And what did the member recommend?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "Come off it, let him speak. We listened to the opposition members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "The minister did not." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "We certainly did. You fellows never said a word." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "The committee recommends that the government of Ontario take the position that legislation of the kind that the committee recommended be proceeded with." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "As if he were talking intelligently." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "That is why he is over there and we are over here." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "I think that’s the crucial point." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order please." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Read the recommendation of the constitutional issues." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order please." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Now the member is getting us annoyed." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "I agree with the member for Riverdale on the principle of taxing policies. I see no conflict, in my opinion, with that principle in this bill. But they talk out of both sides of their mouths apparently when they say that they think the taxing policy should only deal on one principle and then say it should be used for social principles as well. I can’t quite follow them in that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "The member didn’t understand the argument." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "I understood the argument I think all too true. What they are trying to do is to say that this government did not meet the recommendations nor the suggestions made in the report of the select committee." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "And that isn’t true?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "Then they are trying to say, on the other hand, that because they brought in a taxing policy measure to raise the tax on land to somewhat toward that -- and it will have an effect --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "What effect?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "-- and they will have to admit that." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "That’s right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "If anyone has to pay 20 per cent more for land, for a tax --" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "It’s not going to happen." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "-- you will have to realize that the values of land will go up to those people who would be subject to that tax." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "That’s right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "They will pass it on." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "It is more costly for everyone then." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. H. Worton (Wellington South)", "text": [ "Add another 20 per cent." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "That will deter certain people from coming into this country and purchasing land. But to confuse the two, I don’t understand them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Then don’t, please." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "The member for Sudbury East did his best to wrap us into an all-encompassing approach in the recommendations. That isn’t true. Then, the member for Scarborough West points out that our position -- that is, the member for Humber, the Minister of Housing and myself -- differed, and that the principle that was enunciated by the member for Sudbury East -- that we are all-encompassing and all agreeable on everything in the report -- was not true. So I have to say that --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "The member endorsed everything in the report." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "Yes I did, except for the caution that we raised." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Except for the caution, okay. Come on." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Kennedy", "text": [ "So he didn’t endorse it all. So the member is wrong again." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "He said on all counts." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "I would simply say that they are mixing apples and oranges. I think the taxing policy -- and I have no problem in supporting the taxing policy -- that is enunciated in this bill doesn’t really deal with the issue of the ownership issue --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Exactly." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Except perversely and adversely." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "And it is unfortunate, in my opinion, that so much attention is paid to the principles that we enunciated and then confusing those with the principle in this bill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "How can he not pay attention to them?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "I think it is unfortunate that people are drawing the conclusion that they are one and the same." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "They are." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "They are." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "This is the government’s answer to foreign ownership. That is what the budget says." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "This government, when it has studied the legal implications, in my opinion, will come down very substantially on the basis of our report." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Did the member read the budget speech?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "The government doesn’t even read the reports," ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order please." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "Oh, is my friend saying that ministers who were part of the report, who signed the report, did not read it? He has to be wrong. He has to be wrong." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "I am saying that the minister who brought the bill in didn’t read the report and I am saying that the report was never considered by the cabinet." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order please. The hon. members have had an opportunity to speak to the bill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "The member’s selling price is pretty cheap." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Let the hon. member say what he has to say about the bill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "I think that what the government has done here in this bill will go a long way to ease some of the problems." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "No, it won’t." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "It is not the total answer. I don’t think anyone in our party would say it’s a total answer. We haven’t recognized yet all the instances and complications because they are not all brought to the attention of the Legislature. There will be complications with this legislation, as I see it, which we won’t even run across until the tax is applied. Then we will know the problems that will have to be dealt with by this government. They will have to be dealt with in a constructive way, and I have no doubt that they will be." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Kennedy", "text": [ "He said that in the budget." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "I feel, Mr. Speaker, that I will have no problem in supporting this legislation. I don’t appreciate, however, all the references to the principles and the recommendations in the select committee as being waived or thrown out by this government --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "No, because they happened to make the member’s position wrong." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "-- because further study is needed and there are further complications that have to be understood and worked out. I feel free to express my belief that this government will deal with them adequately. Thank you." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for High Park." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Now the member will explain that his leader is wrong, that it won’t cost 20 per cent more. Is that right?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well, it doesn’t have to. They can get around it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "There are so many ways around this bill that one can drive a truck through it. The government is not going to collect that 20 per cent. Does the minister know who it will collect from?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "We’ll close more doors if that happens." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "They are going to have a lot of doors to close -- more than they had before.", "Does the minister know who the government will collect from? They will collect from the fellow in Detroit who works at General Motors and comes over and buys a cottage on the Canadian side." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler", "text": [ "(Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet): The NDP have got something going over there, haven’t they?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "He is going to pay the 20 per cent, because for the sake of the $1,000 that’s involved, it isn’t worth his while to go around it.", "But for the man who lives in Lugano and who wants to buy a piece of Ontario, because it’s a great place to stand and to invest one’s money, he’s not going to pay the millions of dollars that would be involved in the 20 per cent tax because it is just too easy to get around.", "I tell you, Mr. Speaker, the government didn’t seriously want to stop those people coming in, because if they did -- if you look at the bill -- they would have put in some penalties. Will someone be sent to jail for 10 years if they bring in a false affidavit? Are they given some terrible penalty? No. What is the penalty? They would have to pay the amount they evaded, if they are caught, plus an amount not less than $50 and not more than $1,000. We are talking in terms of millions and millions of dollars, and the minister is talking about a $50 fine. It’s ludicrous.", "If the minister really was serious, he would have brought in a bill that had teeth. He would have brought in a bill that said, “All right. We recognize there are going to be people who are going to try to avoid paying this huge tax. Therefore, we must have penalties that are going to be serious enough to act as a deterrent.”", "But what do they do instead? They say, “We are going to bring in deterrents. The deterrent will be a $50 fine.” Mr. Speaker, they don’t really intend to enforce the bill.", "I predict -- and I speak to the former Minister of Revenue (Mr. Grossman) -- I predict that when all the smoke clears and this bill has been enforced for 12 months, he will find that the government will have collected a few hundred thousand dollars from the small people who are buying summer cottages. But the total receipts will be a tiny fraction of what the Treasurer predicted would be brought in during the first year.", "This bill is not quite as ludicrous as the one to follow it, the speculative land tax, but in itself it’s bad. It’s bad because the government’s deluding the public, leading them to believe that we are going to stop the foreign takeover of land -- and the government is not going to do it. It is not going to do anything. It is going to produce a little more Ontario revenue, mind you -- not for the province, not for the people, but for the lawyers. Ah, the lawyers love this bill. They see in it the prospect of a huge increase in income in the next year. The Conservatives will have a solid lawyer vote across the province in the next election.", "Mr. Speaker, I want to go on to a different aspect, but perhaps this is a proper time to adjourn the debate.", "Mr. Shulman moves the adjournment of the debate.", "Motion agreed to." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, before I move the adjournment of the House, I would like to tell my fellow members that we will proceed as was announced yesterday and continue with this item, No. 9, then No. 8 and No. 6.", "The House will not sit on Monday evening, but I expect we will on Tuesday evening and I will probably then be able to give the members an additional schedule of the estimates.", "Hon. Mr. Winkler moves the adjournment of the House.", "Motion agreed to.", "The House adjourned at 1 o’clock, p.m." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)", "text": [ "I would like to ask the Minister of Correctional Services, Mr. Speaker, if he can make a statement to the House on the circumstances in Don Jail which have led to another tragic death, and if he can report to the House when the plan to replace that facility with something more modern is going to come forward? Is he now in a position to say that we are going to have a new jail in this area?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. R. T. Potter (Minister of Correctional Services)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I reported to the House two days ago that plans were under way to replace the Don Jail. The funds are available, as you know. Planning has been completed, the Ministry of Government Services has advertised for tenders which I expect will be completed in June, and construction will be started to replace the old part of the Don Jail.", "The present unfortunate incident is of very great concern to me as it is to everyone else. I think the hon. member will appreciate that all of us are determined to see that every effort is made so that this doesn’t happen. But no matter how careful one is and no matter what precautions are taken, if an individual is determined to take his own life sometimes it is practically impossible to prevent it.", "I should point out that last year in Ontario we had 1,078 suicides reported in the province which were proved suicides. I am advised by the chief coroner if we were to consider others -- automobile accidents and others that were not proved as suicides -- that perhaps the number would be increased by another 500 or 600. So it is not just within our institutions that we have this problem, which is a very big problem as far as I am concerned.", "As members know, every week and every weekend there are a terrific number of accidents on the highways --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I’m talking about inside the Don Jail." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "-- deaths that could be prevented if proper precautions were taken, but people are reluctant to do this.", "As far as we are concerned in the jail, every effort is made to see that circumstances are such that it doesn’t happen, but occasionally it does. Within the last 25 years there have been seven suicides in the Don Jail altogether, unfortunately two of them just very recently." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary: Since the last two have been quite recent and both with young people -- teenagers -- is the minister not concerned that there should be some special supervision for these people? Has he asked for perhaps a psychological or psychiatric report on what happens to those people when they get in that particular jail that seems to be so seriously and tragically depressing? What’s the matter with the supervision down there?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, certainly I am just as concerned as the hon. member professes to be." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Professes to be?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "I think that what he should say is that it is not just the Don Jail. There are other institutions, too, within this province where this happens. I am concerned about all of them. A study is going on. We have a continuing study to determine, if we can, what can be done to prevent it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)", "text": [ "The minister is a great studier. He studied himself right out of the Health department too." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "I did a pretty good job of that too, didn’t I?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "That’s why he is where he is now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. A. J. Roy (Ottawa East)", "text": [ "Ask the Premier about that.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)", "text": [ "If I could ask the minister a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. G. Davis (Premier)", "text": [ "They are all jealous." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Well, send him to the back row." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West has the floor." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I understand and accept some of what the minister says. I presume, and I’m asking interrogatively, that he appreciates that the Don Jail is a very special case that seems to be beset by continuing problems. To what extent the nature of the jail fosters this tragedy is difficult to determine. But, given what has occurred in the last few months in two instances, has the minister undertaken to launch his own investigation into the supervision and psychological supports that are provided in the Don Jail as long as young people are inappropriately incarcerated there for given periods of time?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, yes, I have, and not just within the Don Jail but within the whole structure of Correctional Services." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I have a question of the Minister of Transportation and Communications. In light of the fact that the contract for the construction of the guideway portion alone of the Maglev test track at the CNE was awarded yesterday to C. A. Pitts for about $10.5 million, which is almost twice the estimated cost for the guideway and the stations combined, is the minister now prepared to submit a revised estimate of the total cost of the experiment at the CNE?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. P. J. Yakabuski (Renfrew South)", "text": [ "It’s Trudeau-Lewis inflation all over again." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. R. Rhodes (Minister of Transportation and Communications)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the hon. Leader of the Opposition is approximately three days late. The same question was asked by the hon. member for Ottawa Centre (Mr. Cassidy) and I told him at that time I would get the information.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary: Now that the increases in these costs are associated with firm bids, can the minister confirm that we are at least at the level of $23 million from the original announcement of the Premier which was $16 million?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "It was higher than that." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I will repeat that I will get the information that was asked for here --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "What takes so long?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "-- and I will bring it before the House." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "When?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "The minister must have been holding hands with the Minister of Correctional Services." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would rather bring the information and be accurate than just run around the subject as is done so well by the members of the opposition. They’ll get the information." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. T. P. Reid (Rainy River)", "text": [ "Make it this year. We know more about it than the minister does." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: The minister may recall that I asked for estimates of the overall cost of the main system whenever it’s, built, if ever it’s built. Would he now be prepared to give the House an estimate of the total cost of the experimental demonstration system at the CNE? How much has it gone up from the original estimate of $17 million forecast?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, that is what I understood the hon. member asked for -- for both those particular matters -- and that is exactly what I am getting for him. I didn’t realize he had only asked for half of it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Oh, then apologize." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "I am getting him both." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)", "text": [ "Supplementary question, Mr. Speaker: If the minister is --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "He is wrong as usual." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "If the minister is advised that those persons who made the original estimates were out by two or three times the final amounts, is he intending to discipline them in any way?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Yakabuski", "text": [ "Trudeau inflation." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am not going to answer these hypothetical questions that are being asked by the opposition on a subject that they know very little about.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Ruston (Essex-Kent)", "text": [ "He can’t answer them anyway." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "I have told the hon. members that the information will be brought here when it is available.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "There seems to be some sort of a feeling in that particular group that we should discipline everybody. I think they must beat their wives.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "If the minister is wrong he should resign. He should resign himself." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "This is not the Hepburn regime.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, order please." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. P. G. Givens (York-Forest Hill)", "text": [ "What happened to the specific question that I asked the minister several weeks ago, about whether he was revising the agreement with Krauss-Maffei? He promised to give me an answer and he hasn’t.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "As soon as he gets the information." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, at that time I think I advised the hon. member that we were not revising the contract." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I would like to ask the Minister of Housing to report to the House further on statements that he has made that he is examining all the alternatives that may lead to some procedure of either rent fixing or rent control, or at least the review procedures that were put before the House by way of amendment to the Landlord and Tenant Act when it was before the House three years ago, in view of the implications from the Toronto city council motion that the rents are going to go up by 10 to 15 per cent and other predictions that they may very well be up 25 per cent by the fall?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. S. B. Handleman (Minister of Housing)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, what I have already stated, and has been published, is that we are examining all aspects of the rent problem and we recognize it as a problem. The amendment the hon. member mentioned, of course, will be taken into account when we examine the problem. We have not yet received the resolution from Toronto city council although I think I know its intent and its contents. It seems on first glance that the city council is having difficulty in devising techniques to deal with what it accepts as being a very, very difficult problem and obviously government policy, if there is one, would be announced to the Legislature in the usual way.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "If there is one, yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)", "text": [ "Supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, order." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "If they have one." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Does the hon. member for Wentworth have a supplementary?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I regret there was so much noise I couldn’t hear." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Supplementary question, Mr. Speaker: Is the minister aware that government policy as stated some three years ago was not to allow rent control within municipalities, and is the minister now prepared to state that the government is prepared to allow municipalities, upon application to the government, to inaugurate some form of rent control within their own jurisdictions?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "I am prepared to say, Mr. Speaker, that the government is prepared to consider that possibility along with a number of others in order to deal with this very serious problem.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "That is a cop-out." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)", "text": [ "They are three or four years too late." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)", "text": [ "By way of a supplementary question, what is the minister going to do about Mrs. Smith, in my riding, who yesterday received a notice increasing her rent from $140 to $220?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Ma Smith’s rent is going up?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A notice of eviction." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I don’t know Mrs. Smith and I don’t know the circumstances of her rent increase. If the hon. member would send it over to me I would be glad to look at it. At the present time, the answer would have to be that we have no measures under which we could take any action at this time in that type of a situation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Resign." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "By way of supplementary, Mr. Speaker, could the minister tell us the extent to which, if he is correctly quoted in today’s Star, the production of 30,000 lots within three years is going to alleviate the urgent housing need problem that exists in Ontario today?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am not too sure it is a supplementary, but since I was aware of that article I will answer it anyway." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "He is not sure of anything." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "In the interview, what I did say, and I think I am accurately quoted, was that --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Well, that is a change." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "-- at the outset of the programme the target was approximately 30,000 and that in my optimistic position I feel that we can exceed that, and I the article did say that there would be more than 30,000, if the hon. member will check to find out." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "No, but I asked about --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order. There have been five supplementaries, I believe, which is a reasonable number. The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I would like to ask the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations why he or a representative of his ministry did not take part in the conference that was scheduled in Ottawa, and took place on April 16, by the Housing and Urban Affairs department federally, co-ordinating the provincial consumer departments across Canada with CMHC, specifically designed to discuss and develop a home warranty legislation model?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. T. Clement (Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, two people from my ministry did attend in Ottawa at the request of Mr. Basford on April 8 in the persons of Mr. Graham Adams and the chief solicitor, Mr. Ed Ciemiega. I understand the provinces were asked to return a week later -- I suspect that’s the date to which the member refers, April 16 -- when a committee was being formed. The provinces were invited, as I understand it, to observe the workings of that committee in development of the proposed house warranty programme. I’ll check it out, but I don’t think my people re-attended on that occasion for a reason which I don’t know; whether or not they were invited I don’t know. I’m waiting for a report from Mr. Ciemiega but they were up there a week ago." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A supplementary: Is it the minister’s feeling that model legislation could be established which would be implemented provincially across Canada but which could be co-ordinated by the federal minister, that is, the same provisions in legislation put before all the legislatures? Is that the aim and the goal of the programme?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "It would appear, Mr. Speaker, that the question of house warranties is one of provincial jurisdiction but I can visualize a number of problems being created it we have 10 different sets of rules because of the number of provinces. For this reason, it is one of the matters to be discussed on the agenda at a meeting, in about three weeks time, of the consumer ministers across Canada to develop, hopefully, uniformity of legislation on warranties at the provincial level.", "There will have to be some federal involvement for the very simple reason that there’s federal funding by way of mortgages for residential construction across the entire country, namely through Central Mortgage and Housing. The consumer minister at the federal level, the hon. Herbert Gray, will be in attendance during those deliberations, so I’m advised." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "A supplementary question: Am I to take it from the answer to the question I asked on Tuesday and the answer to today’s question asked by the Leader of the Opposition that this government is prepared to go ahead regardless of whether or not other jurisdictions are prepared to? Or is the minister going to hang on and wait until the whole thing has become such a mess that it is impossible to deal with?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "This government is prepared to proceed in that direction regardless of the decisions of other provincial governments but because of the nature of the subject it was felt by the minister who is hosting the conference that it would be a matter very properly placed on the agenda to be discussed by all the consumer ministers at that particular meeting in the middle of May." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "One final supplementary question: Has the ministry prepared legislation that might be put forward as a model to the other jurisdictions and is the minister prepared to bring it before this Legislature this session?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "I have a number of proposals before me not reduced to legislative form. I am prepared to bring forward legislation along these lines -- not during the session but at the session which follows, presumably late this autumn -- for introduction into this House." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A question of the Premier, Mr. Speaker: Now that the Minister of Energy (Mr. McKeough) has publicly rebuked the oil companies for the manner in which they set their prices, is the Premier prepared to indicate that the Province of Ontario will set a maximum cost per gallon of gasoline and home fuel oil to protect the consumers of this province?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the government is not prepared at this time to make that statement." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "By way of supplementary, what kind of hypocrisy is the government engaging in over there? No, I ask it seriously. The Minister of Energy will use a public forum to attack the oil companies for irresponsibility in what they are extracting from the consumer without the government stepping in to defend the consumer as, for example, the provincial government of Nova Scotia is now doing, in insisting that the prices be rolled back." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I can only say at this time I have no statement to make as to the price of fuel oil or gasoline." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I hope the two of them can resolve it. Let me ask the Premier another question. How is it that the increase in the price of milk per quart went 3.4 cents to the farmer, entirely and legitimately justified; and 1.6 cents per quart to the dairies, totally unjustified and illegitimate? When is the government going to defend the consumers of Ontario in respect of milk prices?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I must confess I am not as familiar with the distribution of cost as it relates to the milk industry as perhaps the Minister of Agriculture and Food (Mr. Stewart) might be. I heard the member say the 1.6 cent increase to the dairies is in his view unjustified. I am not sure that is in fact the case." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "That’s right, the Premier is not sure." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "By way of supplementary, is the member aware, as Premier, that the most recent profit increases for Silverwoods on a comparative-year basis was 88.9 per cent; for Dominion Dairies, 46 per cent; for Becker Milk 57 per cent? Does he not realize, as one of the people supposedly involved in protecting the consumer, that we are paying almost two cents more per quart than we should be paying because the government has allowed the dairies to rip off people in Ontario rather than giving the farmers what it should have given them?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am glad there is at least one area where we can agree with the hon. member. I do agree that the increase to the farmers was justified." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Okay. Who protects the consumers of Ontario?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Certainly not the member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Not this government, not this government." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I see the member’s father is going to support us." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I saw that. Is the member going to do so as well?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Don’t push me." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "There was that press nonsense of a while ago about the member becoming more conservative; we now see evidence of it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I see, I see.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I want to ask the Premier another question: Is he now prepared to indicate to the House and to the public that before May 1 next the government will make an offer to the hospital workers directly involved in the 12 hospitals in the Toronto area who have threatened strike action as of May 1? I needn’t remind the Premier that today is April 18." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is correct, it is the 18th; I accept that. I can only say to the hon. member that meetings were under way at 2 o’clock this afternoon; and I really have no comment further than that at this point." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "By way of supplementary, I am not talking of the mediation meetings; we all know what they are. I am asking the Premier about a government commitment in advance of May 1.", "Does the Premier not realize the degree to which he is heightening both the militancy and the desperation of the hospital workers? Is that his policy? Or is he prepared to promise an offer?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "No, I don’t want to see that strike; I don’t want to see that strike." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "The government wants it and they know it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)", "text": [ "The same thing as the teachers; they want the same thing as the teachers went through." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "We have had enough of the government’s --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "In every situation they create this confrontation and they know it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I go away for a day and look at what I return to, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I say to the Premier, I almost beg of the Premier, does he not realize that it’s getting very close to the point at which it’s almost impossible to defuse things unless he makes a public commitment in advance of May 1 that the government will meet the legitimate expectations of the hospital worker?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am fully aware of the time frame involved, and I can only say to the hon. member the government is as conscious as he is as to the nature of the situation.", "I can only say the matter is under consideration by the government. Meetings -- the member may call them mediation, perhaps that’s the proper term -- are under way at the present time. I just will not be provoked into making any further comments until the time is appropriate." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Rainy River, a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "Supplementary: The Premier has been playing games with us on this issue for over a month. Does the Premier not realize the legitimacy of the claims of the hospital workers?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "That’s a repeat of the previous question. It is just a repeat of the original question. I rule it out of order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Be original." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "Well I am not finished yet, that’s my preamble." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West. All right, the hon. member for Ottawa East." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Premier how he can justify not making a commitment to the hospital workers now, when just over a month ago the government gave this increase offhandedly to the doctors at the other end of the scale? How can the Premier procrastinate with these people and give the doctors, who are making a lot of money, this increase?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, with great respect to the hon. member, no increase was given to the doctors in an offhanded way. If the member wants me to recite chapter and verse as to the procedures that were used --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "It was -- in a significant way." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "-- I’d be delighted to do so, but I can only say that the government accepted a recommendation of a committee under the chairmanship of, I think, a relatively able and objective person --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "Do the same thing in relation to the hospital workers." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "-- composed of members from both the profession and the government. If the hon. member for Ottawa East or the Liberal Party wants to say -- and I’d be delighted to hear them say it -- if they think the procedure was wrong, if they think the amount awarded the profession was too high, and if they were elected and would lower it, let them say so and have the intestinal fortitude to do it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "We’re talking about hospital workers." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "They can’t always have it both ways." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "On a point of order, Mr. Speaker --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "The government has had the same kind of reports about the hospital workers and it hasn’t done anything." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on a point of order --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Just to clarify my question, I did not attack the method; I attacked the increase to people already making a lot of money --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "The hon. member said it was offhand." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "-- and the fact that the government was forgetting the people at the bottom end of the scale." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "The hon. member said it was offhand." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "We know where the government’s cards are." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "The Premier decided it himself. Why wasn’t the Legislature involved?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Why didn’t the government bring it here?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Sure he did." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "We’ll answer the Premier’s question. It was to much. It was wrong for the doctors." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "These people don’t say so." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well, that’s fine. We’re telling the Premier it was wrong." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have one last question of the Minister of Housing, if I may. Does the minister realize that the 30,000 additional serviced lots he talks about over the next three years will in fact put him behind in the production of housing in respect to the last three years in the Province of Ontario?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I suppose I should clarify this again. What I did say was that the original target of the housing action programme was to bring on stream approximately 30,000 additional -- or more than normal -- serviced lots over the next three years. And, with my usual optimism, I think" ] }, { "speaker": "-- and, as a matter of fact, I’m almost sure -- that with full co-operation from the other two sectors we can achieve considerably more. These are additional lots over and above the normal production.", "text": [] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well, may I ask a supplementary? Is the minister saying than 10,000 additional serviced lots per year is any contribution to the housing crisis at all in Ontario? Does he not realize that that’s roughly 10 per cent of the immediate requirement within the next year, over and above what he intends to produce? And that’s his total programme?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "The answer to the question, do I think that 10,000 additional lots is a contribution, is yes I do. If I am asked if I think it’s a solution, I say no. There are other approaches; this is part of the total approach." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "What are they?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "What are they?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "By way of supplementary --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "By way of supplementary --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Downsview." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Of the 10,000 lots that might be supplied this year, how many in fact is the minister prepared to say will be available to Ontario citizens this year?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, we have a three-year programme --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "No, I said this year." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "I cannot assure the hon. member of 10,000 this year or 5,000 this year --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order. Let the minister answer." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "When we have commitments from the other two parties to this programme, we will make the announcement and we will aggregate the lots. It’s obviously impossible, in 1974, to say suddenly, “There shall be lots.” Lots are now under development." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Suddenly? The minister says he has been working on it for years." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "This question was pursued before; surely there have been sufficient supplementaries. It’s the same thing that was answered before." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "There have only been three, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "No further questions." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "All right; no further questions.", "The hon. Minister of Housing has the answer to a question asked previously." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "That will be refreshing." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The hon, member for Brant (Mr. R. F. Nixon) asked me about Ontario Housing Corp. advertising, and I would like to read the exact question, because there is an erroneous assumption in the question itself.", "“I would like to ask the Minister of Housing, further to the province’s advertising budget, to explain why Ontario Housing Corp.’s advertisement for integrated community housing programmes appeared -- a display ad -- it appeared three times in today’s Star, exactly the same ad.”", "The answer, Mr. Speaker, is that they weren’t exactly the same ad. They were three different advertisements." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "Was the minister’s name spelled correctly?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "A very casual inspection, which I think is the hon. member’s usual course of action, indicated that they might be identical. Reading the fine print is something that takes some time. One ad related to Metropolitan Toronto, one to Mississauga, and one to Oshawa. In the case of Mississauga and Oshawa, the ads covered more than one programme." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "All put in by the minister’s department." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "That’s right. They were all put in by OHC; they were directed to different people. And obviously the power of advertising worked, because the hon. member noticed them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "At triple the cost -- and did the minister get any response?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for York West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. P. J. MacBeth (York West)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Transportation and Communications, who was here a minute ago. He has suddenly disappeared." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "He must have known the member had a question for him." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "The member’s moment of glory is gone." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Is the hon. minister not present? All right, the hon. member for Rainy River is next." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "A question of the Minister of Natural Resources, Mr. Speaker. I will catch him before he slips out.", "Can the minister explain his ministry’s policy in requiring all the independent cutters in the Thunder Bay area to take all their wood to the Laidlaw Co. in Thunder Bay and cutting off the independent sawmill operators and increasing the independent’s costs?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. L. Bernier (Minister of Natural Resources)", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have made some very clear statements on this. In fact I have sent a full description to the member for Port Arthur (Mr. Foulds), the member for Thunder Bay and the member for Fort William (Mr. Jessiman), outlining the reasons and the actions we took and why we took them.", "Just to go back a couple of steps, we were most anxious of course to fulfil the requirements and the government decision to accept Design for Development, Phase 2, in which x-number of jobs would be created in the forest industry.", "We dealt with a number of forest companies who were interested in establishing a fibreboard plant in the Thunder Bay area. We asked them to look in several areas of northern Ontario and MacMillan Bloedel, who are now Laidlaw in Ontario, came to us with a proposal that if we could guarantee them 100,000 units of poplar per year within the Thunder Bay area, they were prepared to spend up to $12 million in a major investment creating something like 225 new jobs in the area.", "We looked at it very carefully and it was obvious that we had the wood fibre in the Thunder Bay area, but it was on Crown land in three Crown management units. We are well aware of the many small operators who are operating in the area and the decision to allocate this poplar in the three management units to Laidlaw was taken with a great deal of thought. We are convinced that it is the best thing for the small operators in the area.", "Some are saying that it will give a monopoly to Laidlaw; we don’t think it will, because the poplar off the private lands can still be sold anywhere that the individual would like. We are not controlling that at all. They still have that right; but we are directing the poplar from the three Crown management units in the Thunder Bay area to this one industry so that will provide X-number of jobs; and, of course, the investment will come to northwestern Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "A supplementary, if I may, Mr. Speaker: When the ministry puts a company like Laidlaw or Boise Cascade in the Fort Frances area in a monopoly position, what do they do to ensure the independent operator of a fair price for their wood, whether they get it off their own limits or Crown land?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "As I said earlier, we are not controlling the sale of poplar from private land to any forest industry in the area. We have already advised Laidlaw that we will monitor the prices given to those individuals who harvest poplar off private land and sell it to the paper companies. In no way will we let them use their monopoly position to downgrade the price of poplar in the Thunder Bay area." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Yorkview." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. F. Young (Yorkview)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a question of the hon. Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations: In view of stories which have recently appeared in the press in connection with mechanical fitness and fraudulent certificates, as well as other instances that have come to the attention of individual members, has the minister any plans to tighten up the legislation regarding administration of certificates of mechanical fitness, so that aggrieved persons have some other resource than to courts with attendant long delays and costs?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the involvement of my ministry with certificates of mechanical fitness emanates from our control and registration of the new- and used-car business. Whenever it comes to our attention or investigations indicate that there has been a breach of the legislation dealing with the issuance of those certificates, then we have in all instances prosecuted.", "The qualifications of the person or persons who issue those certificates are within the purview of the Ministry of Colleges and Universities under its educational programme. I concede there are difficulties, there are problems, insofar as some of these fraudulent certificates are issued. I don’t think they’re that widespread but they are significant enough to cause me concern." ] }, { "speaker": "Some hon. members", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I haven’t heard the word supplementary yet." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Young", "text": [ "A supplementary, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "A supplementary?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Young", "text": [ "Is the minister satisfied that measures are under way which will solve this problem because it still is a very great problem for a great many people?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I’m advised by my colleague, the Minister of Transportation and Communications, that his ministry is tightening up on it. One of the things I would personally endorse is the removal of the fine only against the person who issues the fraudulent certificate -- or one who is stretching the truth to some degree -- and impose in lieu of a fine, imprisonment and/or a fine and the removal of the licence for the person to practice. It would be the same type of penalty as is borne by professional and semi-professional groups already subject to other legislation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Could I just ask one supplementary?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Ottawa East has a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "In reference to the minister’s comments that the abuse of these certificates was not widespread, how does he correlate that with the comments of the previous Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Carton) who said they were widespread?", "Secondly, how does he expect to have proper enforcement of this type of certificate when the jurisdiction is spread out between the Ministry of Transportation and Communications, his ministry and the Ministry of Colleges and Universities? Doesn’t he think it’s high time, maybe, the enforcement was under one ministry?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, it’s because of the very nature of the responsibilities themselves. T&C has it because it is seized with the responsibility of monitoring the Highway Traffic Act, as the member well knows. The Ministry of Colleges and Universities deals with the professional qualifications of the people who, in fact, are issuing those certificates. The involvement of my ministry is because we monitor the car industry. Unless all three were placed in the responsibility of one ministry, and I suggest that would not be the answer, we’re going to have this fragmentation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "It would help." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The member for York West." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. MacBeth", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I see the Minister of Transportation and Communications has returned --" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Welcome back." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacBeth", "text": [ "-- and I would ask him whether or not there will be a stop at Rexdale now that the announcement of the GO route to Georgetown has been made? Can he tell me whether there will be a stop at Rexdale to serve the northern part of the borough of Etobicoke?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Shulman (High Park)", "text": [ "Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, there will not be a stop at Rexdale immediately. We are looking at the possibility of putting one in there." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "But the train will slow down?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Will it slow down at all?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "It will wave at them as it goes by." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "If the member for Downsview is on he can jump off any time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Grey-Bruce has a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacBeth", "text": [ "A supplementary, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for York West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacBeth", "text": [ "Can the minister give consideration to such a stop?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, certainly, we’ve just recently had some discussions with the mayor of the borough on this very point.", "It is not forgotten." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Grey-Bruce is next." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. E. Sargent (Grey-Bruce)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a Question of the Premier. In view of the fact that he and the member for Grey South (Mr. Winkler) are cooking up this journey into history, and in view of the fact we don’t have a train service up our way --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "They’re rewriting history." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "-- he took it away along with the federal government -- now he’s going to have this special junket through western Ontario with a lot of civic functions, etc., how does he justify blatantly adding insult to injury by bringing a train junket into our area? We haven’t got a train service but he’s going to have it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "He’s just trying to re-elect the Chairman of the Management Board. It is an impossible task." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "How much is it going to cost? Let’s start there, how much is it going to cost?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Who is paying for it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "The Treasury Board." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I think first of all I should straighten out the member on who really took the train service off the tracks. If he can get in touch with his friends in Ottawa there’s a little bit of warmth there right now about reinstituting the service -- with which I agree.", "In reference to the question he puts, this isn’t the first time we’ve done it. This is about the third, and each and every time it funds itself. It costs nobody anything." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "A supplementary --" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "I’m looking forward to the trip. I’m going to drive the train." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "If it funds itself why the hell can’t we have a train service up there?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Why doesn’t the member ask Mr. Marchand?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "I’m almost disposed to answer the member the way the member for Lakeshore (Mr. Lawlor) did the other week because of the irresponsible way he approaches a question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Irresponsible? That is a very sensible question." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "He knows whose responsibility it is but he is afraid of them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Yakabuski", "text": [ "He drives down in his white Lincoln. Why doesn’t he use the train?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "The Ontario government is giving a train to Barrie now -- what’s wrong with Grey-Bruce getting a train?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "Maybe the member had better look at himself." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Sudbury East.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "That wasn’t much of an answer." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "It was as good as the question he asked.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Sudbury East.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. E. W. Martel (Sudbury East)", "text": [ "I have a question of the Minister of the Environment, Mr. Speaker. In view of Dr. Balsillie’s report which states, “The above observations indicate that both acute and chronic injury are occurring to vegetation in the area north of Lake Wanapitei”, could the minister indicate whether or not his ministry is willing to indicate who is responsible for the damage at long last? In other words, is it Falconbridge and Inco that are doing that damage?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman (Minister of the Environment)", "text": [ "I missed the first part of the member’s question. Could he just repeat the first part?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "And the minister didn’t understand the second part." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Dr. Balsillie’s report recently to the minister’s office indicated the following: “The above observations indicate that both acute and chronic injury are occurring to vegetation in the area north of Lake Wanapitei.” Is the ministry now willing to indicate who is responsible directly for the damage?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "We have received the report and are studying it at this time and we will be back to the member on it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Supplementary --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "That is almost as good as the Minister for Transportation and Communications." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "That was funny the first time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "In view of the fact that the ministry has already condensed Dr. Balsillie’s report and chopped it up pretty well, I can’t see why it is necessary for further study for the ministry to indicate who is responsible. Would the minister be willing, once he indicates who is responsible, to assess Inco and Falconbridge a certain amount to neutralize the water and restore the vegetation in that area?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. Haggerty (Welland South)", "text": [ "What does the government want -- another Dow?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "As the member knows, we are very much concerned about that whole Sudbury basin. We are doing a lot of studies and we are doing a lot of monitoring. I’ve been writing the member a lot of letters about the problems they are faced with up there." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "The government studied itself right out of power in that area." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "Certainly we did some research." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The government has a right to be concerned in the Sudbury basin. It will never have a seat there, not one." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "Don’t let the member kid himself. When we get through with the work we are doing up there, we may have them all." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Not to mention the Renfrews. They are gone forever.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order. There are just a few minutes remaining." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, we have done some experimental work, as members know, up there. We will be continuing this work this summer." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "No wonder they hired McPhee." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Downsview is next." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Premier. Is the Premier concerned about the police-state-like provisions in the statute that was tabled by the Minister of Revenue (Mr. Meen), Bill 25, An Act to impose a Tax on speculative Profits resulting from the Disposition of Land, which provides in section 18, subsection 4, and in section 18, subsection 6, that where the officials of the Ministry of Revenue have ascertained information or seized documents in relation to the provisions of that Act, they can make that information available or provide the documents to other departments of the provincial government, to departments of the government of Canada and to the ministries of other provinces under certain circumstances? Would the Premier not agree that that would allow fishing expeditions under the guise --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "-- of a statute like this and make police-state-like legislation?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order. I’m informed that this is on the order paper." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Well, that’s all right, I want to stop it.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "No, Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, whether it is on the order paper or not, surely it is demeaning to this province to have written in a statute police-state-type legislation. I’m trying to head it off before it gets any further." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "It is not proper for the hon. member to anticipate any provisions that might be in the bill. It is on the order paper." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "It is there." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I think your question is not proper." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Oh, the Premier just shakes his head. He should be ashamed." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for High Park." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Another Bill 99." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "What was wrong with it?" ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "I have a question of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations, Mr. Speaker: What action has the minister taken since the letter which he was shown last week from the organization representing the liquor employees of this province, in which they say there is now chaos in the stores which he manages because they are being forced to hire people who are mentally incapable of handling the jobs?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "The member means retired cabinet ministers." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I checked into that allegation which was so kindly drawn to my attention by the member for High Park, with whom I feel a real affinity over the past few days." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. K. McNeil (Elgin)", "text": [ "Drinking more wine?", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "I miss him every weekend." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "And Wednesdays." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "I ascertained that before a person is hired by the Liquor Control Board of this province as a permanent employee that person undergoes an aptitude test and a physical examination. This does not occur if the person is a temporary employee working a day or two a week.", "The board, as a matter of policy, attempts as much as possible to hire people on a temporary basis -- some of them quite elderly; under 65 but beyond 60 in many instances -- who do have some physical disability so long as that disability will not interfere with their work, i.e., a back injury, which would preclude them from lifting heavy cases of liquor and this sort of thing. But if such a person becomes a permanent employee, then he must undergo the two tests to which I have already referred." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Can the minister explain the comments here that utter chaos over which the staff has no control now reigns in the stores?" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Nonsense, nonsense." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. G. A. Kerr (Solicitor General)", "text": [ "Who wrote that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "The head of the liquor employees’ association." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "The Sun." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would consider that to be --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "Is that for tomorrow’s column?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "-- poetic licence of the writer of that particular article. If he will describe the degree of the chaos, and if he will give me the particulars, I will undertake to look into it.", "I might point out that the writer of that article has in the past indicated his interest in various matters pertaining to the employees’ association and has, in fact, spoken and met with me on matters of mutual interest. This has not been the subject of any discussion between that particular writer and myself." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Ottawa East." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a question of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations dealing with pyramid sales:", "First of all, would the minister advise how many certificates of acceptance have been issued in this province? I suppose he will say none.", "Secondly, how can he tolerate two or three different companies operating in this province under the pyramid sales scheme, one of them being Holiday Magic in Scarborough? And why is he waiting to do something about it in light of the fact that the Province of Quebec last week issued some 81 charges against the same company?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, two weeks ago I would have said none had been registered. I don’t know as of today how many have been registered --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "None, none." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "-- because I have directed the acting registrar to effect registration of those who have complied with the requirements set out in the Act and the regulations, and I anticipate they will be registered within days, if they have not already been registered by now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The time for oral questions has now expired.", "Petitions.", "Presenting reports.", "Mr. J. A. Taylor, from the standing private bills committee, presented the committee’s report which was read as follows and adopted:", "Your committee begs to report the following bills without amendment:", "Bill Pr4, An Act respecting the City of Hamilton.", "Bill Pr6, An Act respecting the Wellington County Board of Education.", "Bill Pr16, An Act respecting the City of Orillia.", "Your committee begs to report the following bill with certain amendments:", "Bill Pr3, An Act respecting the City of Hamilton.", "Your committee would recommend that the time for presenting reports by the committee be extended to Thursday, May 2, 1974.", "Hon. Mr. Rhodes presented the annual report to the Minister of Transportation and Communications of the Ontario Highway Transport Board on its affairs for the year ending Dec. 31, 1973, for the information of the members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Are there any further reports?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "No." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Does the hon. House leader have any reports?" ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "No, I don’t have a report, Mr. Speaker, but I would like to table the answer to question 3 standing on the order paper." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Motions.", "Introduction of bills." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this bill is to prevent the investment in Ontario, by or under the control of persons I engaged in unlawful activities, of the unlawful proceeds and to prevent the laundering of unlawful proceeds to secure their source.", "I would like to give a word of thanks to Mr. Stone of the legislative counsel for his kind work in assisting me and to the Solicitor General for his consideration and help in looking at the bill." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "On a point of order just before the orders of the day, I wonder if the Minister of Revenue could assist us since he has indicated that there may be amendments to the land tax bill, which I understand it is expected would be debated on second reading tomorrow. Is it possible that we might see those proposed amendments before we approach the bill on second reading so that we know the areas where the minister feels that the bill is already wanting? We might then modify our approach to some extent." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. A. K. Meen (Minister of Revenue)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the public and many of my colleagues are presently providing me with some very, very useful comment on these bills, particularly on the Land Speculation Tax Act.", "To the extent that my ministry and I may have reached some firm conclusions on the amendments which I would propose to introduce when the bill is in committee, I think there would be no difficulty in my providing those to the hon. Leader of the Opposition and to the leader of the New Democratic Party if they would both wish to have those.", "I want to emphasize that because we are, for the agrarians in this House, ploughing virgin soil -- and perhaps for the boaters and nautical types in this House I am sailing some uncharted waters -- there are bound to be some rocks in all of this and we’re encountering problems virtually daily which I am wrestling with --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Bullbrook (Sarnia)", "text": [ "That’s an apt description if I ever heard one: “Ploughing virgin soil.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "-- and there will consequently be the very great likelihood of amendments being generated right up to the time when we do get into the committee of the whole House on this. Indeed, I will be listening with interest this afternoon to the speech of the former leader of the NDP, in which I would expect he will have some comments to make on this bill. In the course of the debate on the bill on second reading there may well also be some very useful ideas put forward which I would like to be able to take under consideration.", "Therefore, I do want to emphasize that if I am able to provide the hon. members with some thoughts on my proposed amendments that those amendments by no means represent a fixed position." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "If I might speak to that point of my leader to the minister. If there are some considerations given to amendments and if we are to proceed, as I understand it, with second reading debate beginning tomorrow, is the minister at least considering having the bill go to standing committee for --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Very good idea." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "-- the committee process so that perhaps other members of the public --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Why not?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "-- who may wish to give additional information could possibly be included, in the best interests of having as good a bill as we could have?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Well, Mr. Speaker, I have given that some thought, but in view of the urgency of passage of both of these bills and particularly the Land Transfer Tax Act and the present uncertainty in the commercial areas of activity in this province today because the bills are not law, it is essential that they be passed as quickly as possible.", "What the Treasurer said in his budget speech and what I have gone to considerable length to say also since that time, is that we are very flexible. On the other hand, I think the people of Ontario have to know where they stand as accurately as possible and as quickly as possible.", "Therefore, for the initial stages of passage of the bill in order that it can become law, I would propose to take it to the committee of the whole House rather than to the standing committee at this time, although I certainly invite -- and I am receiving these submissions daily -- submissions from the public as well as from our colleagues in this House which I can take under advisement, when looking at the Act, when looking at the regulations that will be drafted, and indeed we are working on those now.", "So over the next few months when we get a feel for this Act and this new form of legislation we will have a much better idea of where we are going, and in the fall session might then follow the course of action which the hon. member for Kitchener has suggested." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on the same point of order, doesn’t the minister think that in view of the substantial reservations which are being raised in the business community and elsewhere, as he himself agrees is now taking place, that wisdom would dictate that the principle of the bill will obviously be affected by the extent and nature of the amendments which the minister proposes to introduce or incorporate, and that it is impossible for him to resolve the problem of the immediate passage of that bill with a proper and adequate public debate in consideration of this immensely important principle?", "Wouldn’t the minister consider suggesting to the House leader that discretion requires that the bill be not debated tomorrow morning on second reading but be debated at the point in time when the ministry has made up its mind what road it is going to take, having regard to the public reservations about the bill?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, we appear to be returning to the question period. To both those questions I think I would just simply say no, not at this time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I want to say on this point that the minister is absurdly inflexible and that once again we are traducing the Legislature, because a debate is necessarily unproductive when he intends to introduce major changes by way of amendment, when he as minister is receiving submissions from the public, when we as legislators are still receiving submissions from the public, when he has already indicated to the House that he will provide no forum for the public and he forces us into a debate tomorrow morning on the principle when he himself has indicated that the principle may be altered. That’s just bloody-mindedness. It’s silly, it’s childish and it’s obviously going to be destructive." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order. Order please." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "And I’m tired of that kind of role." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "In fact it’s mean." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Even nasty." ] } ]

[ { "speaker": "Mr. C. J. S. Apps (Kingston and the Islands)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, in connection with a statement made by the official opposition critic during the budget debate on page 1083 of Hansard he said.", "“The population of Kingston is dropping by one per cent per decade.”", "I tried to correct him at that time with very little success so I got the proper figures. The population of Kingston in 1963 was 50,011. In 1973 it was 59,289, an increase of 18.6 per cent.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Apps", "text": [ "That is just about as accurate as his critic’s figures were." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Check the Financial Post." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Apps", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I find it rather amazing that the --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please. The hon. member is permitted to correct a wrong impression that has been created but there should be no further statements." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Apps", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker, other than the fact that probably the member who spoke should apologize to the Legislature for quoting a very inaccurate figure." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I think that is not necessary, nor is it customary.", "Orders of the day." ] }, { "speaker": "Clerk of the House", "text": [ "The first order, resuming the adjourned debate on the amendment to the motion that this House approves in general the budgetary policy of the government." ] } ]