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It is always presence. When you are thinking about it, it is presently. Time is a mental concept.

Can time exist?

In the context that it was written, it doesn't matter who wrote it.

Who wrote this text?

In non-duality, in one without a second, not even the one, just pure presence awareness, how can the experience know itself? It is complete; it is whole; it is perfect. To re-experience that, it puts a veil of ignorance over itself as it vibrates into different patterns with experiences and expressions through these different patterns. Then it turns around and comes to know itself again, returning to its completeness. The Hindu tradition calls it the dance of Shiva, the play of God, Lila, or the sport of God. So, in reality, nothing has ever happened. Patterns of energy appear. Patterns disappear. It is still the same intelligence energy. Patterns appear just the same as the reflections appear in the mirror. What has happened to the mirror?

How and why did the One become many?

There can only be one mind, if there is any such thing as mind. Mind is an appearance also! So it can appear as many.

Nothing! Is there mind or are there several minds?

The only instrument we have is the mind. So, it has to be understood that you can never grasp it with the mind. Because it contains the mind; the mind can never contain it.

Do I know myself through the mind, or is it independent of the mind?

That is the primary thought from which all the dualism appears. As soon as there is 'I am', there must be 'you' or 'the other'. That idea 'l am' is the cause of all our seeming problems. That sense of presence is expressing itself through the mind, but prior to that thought, you know that you are, don't you? You are not thinking 'I am' constantly all the time, are you? You know that you are sitting there. You are aware of being present, continually.

What about the feeling or the thought 'I am'?

The mind is in abeyance in deep sleep, but that effortless functioning is still going on. The mind is not there. That functioning is still breathing you. It is still causing the blood to flow around through the body. The fingernails continue to grow. All these do not stop because the mind is not there.Consciousness, or the mind, stirs in that deep sleep, and you start to dream before you are awake. In this dream you create a world, and you see yourself taking an active part in it. It might be in a town, a city, a room or out in the country. You can dream of all sorts of things. There can be other people there. There could be cars, animals or anything, and you see yourself taking an active part. Yet, that body has not moved from the bed. All of this seeming world has been taking place in that little space between your ears. If you continued to dream every night and the dream continued on from the night before just as it appears to do in the waking state, could you tell the difference between the dream state and the waking state? So, is the world anything other than mind? What substance has the mind? What substance has a thought got? That 'I am' thought is what you believe yourself to be. Can the mind stand on its own? If you were not conscious, if that consciousness was not there, could you have a single thought?

What about when I am in deep sleep? I am not aware.

you just said that even in deep sleep, you were not aware of it. No thoughts. Mind is dependent on consciousness or awareness or whatever you want to call it, that pure intelligence energy. So that must be primary, that must be the reality, not the 'I am' thought, not the 'me' as such.

I don't know!

That is also just a movement in awareness. This entire world appears in that consciousness. This entire world is the content of consciousness. So, it cannot be anything other than consciousness. There is nothing that you can think of, conceive of, perceive or postulate outside of consciousness.Even if you are talking about other universes or other solar systems, the moment you think about or talk about them, you have brought them into consciousness. When that 'thinking and talking' consciousness is out of the way, there is that pure intelligence there. It just shines of itself.

Is consciousness dependent on anything else?

The whole thing is the universal, if you look at it closely. No parts. Awareness, the absolute, consciousness, mind are one and the same thing in different aspects. Like with water: you have water vapor or steam, then the liquid state of water and then there is ice. These are three different aspects of the one thing, water. So, it still never changes from that non dual, one without a second. Grasp that fact and stay with that. It does not matter what appears. It is still only the One. Then that sense of separation can no longer be there.

So is consciousness a part of the universal?

it can vibrate into myriads and myriads of patterns.

How do we account for the population increase then? If all is one and nothing can be taken away or nothing can be added, how do we explain the population increase?

No. What is the something else? It is still that one and the same intelligence energy! They say that this universe as we know it started off as an atom or a quark or something minute. All this energy started from that. From our point of view, it is still expanding, and that original so called beginning is fifteen billion light years ago. In a drop of water there are myriad forms of life. Within that life there is more life on a finer scale. Going out into space, to where the Earth is just a speck, that is another, quite different point of reference. Now, where is it all judged from? It is still all within that One. To get a true judgment of it, you would have to step outside of it. That is impossible! The time scale differences between the life in the drop of water, the life as we experience it and the life out there in deep space are vastly different. The life of a cell could not possibly conceive of our life of a hundred years. It is all relative to the reference point taken. Our reference point is always that 'me' or ‘I’ but added to it are events or experiences of what happened yesterday or last week or last year or when I was born. These are added to that pure 'I' image. It has built this image that I am a good person or a bad person or I have low self-esteem or I am angry or fearful. That very sense of ‘I’ is separation. That very sense of that separation is insecurity. From being the totality, the unlimited potential of being, we have immediately become an isolated, separate human being with all its limitations. We have built this mental cage around ourselves. Now, from that reference point everything is judged. You see that whatever has happened to me is judged from that reference point and I might consider it 'good' or 'bad'. Our criteria, our reference point is never correct, never true. In seeing that, in grasping that, where does it leave you? It can only leave you right here, right now, aware in the actuality of this moment. This is the real! This is the real! This is the real! This is the real!

Does that imply that something else is losing?

Yes. If there is no thought, what is wrong with right now, if you're not thinking about it! If everything is just as it is, unaltered, unmodified, uncorrected what is it? It is just as it is! Just one, as is!

So, we are whole, complete nothing to need but just a thought away from being insecure and neurotic.

Yes, they are very real while you are dreaming them. But when you wake up in the morning and see them as a dream, what happens?

It puts your dreams in a different perspective. They are real!

do you carry them around all day and say, 'That was terrible'? Trying to get something from them would be perpetuating the 'me' or the self-center which thinks it is going to find an answer.

I guess, basically, you dismiss them, but sometimes I try to get something from them.

It seems so very real, but when it is seen as a dream, you are no longer bound by it. Just the same as when you see the falseness of that self-center, that it has no reality either, then you are no longer bound by that and that is the freedom. That is freedom from the seeming 'bondage of self'.

In the dream, it seems so real, it seems that it actually happened.

Your memory is there to be used. It is useful. But when memory comes up and carries on and carries on, it starts to use you. It will make you fearful, anxious or depressed or whatever. It is using that self-image that you have of yourself. If that memory is not good for it, then 'I don't want to be like this' pops up. So you create another image in the future when you are going to escape from all of this. As we said before, the mind is the only instrument that we have. The mind is not the enemy just because it causes all the problems. If it is understood clearly, then it is there for what it is meant to be there for. It is a wonderfully creative instrument. But when it believes that it is running the show, then the trouble arises. The mind is so closely aligned with that pure intelligence energy. And because it has never been questioned, it has come to believe that it is the power: 'I am me. I am running the show!' But when you look at it closely you see that all it is, is an image, an idea, and on its own it cannot do anything. It actually relies on that pure intelligence energy. Now, right now, you are hearing and seeing. Does the hearing say, 'I hear?’ Does the seeing say, 'I see'? What says those things?

I am just thinking that my past experiences are useful if the need arises.

So, in saying those things, the mind has given itself the power, believing that 'I am doing something’. Let's look further. Does the thought 'I see’ does that thought see? Does the thought 'I hear' hear? Does that thought hear? No! So, that is the proof that it has no power. You are still seeing. You are still hearing. Effortlessly the functioning, the happening, is functioning. Effortlessly, that pure intelligence energy is bubbling up through this psychosomatic apparatus, this body mind, this pattern of energy . You see and recognize that all the activities are happening .

The mind!

It is not a matter of trust. It is simply coming back to the naked seeing, seeing that there is no 'me' to trust. You see or recognize that the 'me' is only an accumulation of ideas in your mind, an image based on your past and your conditioning. That pure 'I am' thought is one move away from reality. And because that is pretty hard to grasp on its own, it has added all these other images and ideas and words to it. This has created an image, which seems very real and solid because it has been gone over day after day, week after week from the time we were two years old. It has never been questioned. And that is the only problem. Once it is looked at, the false cannot stand up to the investigation. That 'I', that 'me', that thought cannot see! It cannot be aware! It cannot breathe you! It cannot beat your heart. The very idea of I or me relies on that pure functioning for any kind of thinking to appear! Yet it, the idea of ‘me’, has come to believe that it has the power! Without thought, do you ever stop being?

So, I just have to learn to trust in that.

Right now, you are hearing?

I said ‘I want to know what I know intellectually as direct experience’, what can you do for me?

Consciousness is all there is. There is no one to have consciousness. The whole thing is consciousness.

If there is no center, how can you have consciousness?

You are breathing now. You're seeing, hearing. It is all happening. Now, is there any need for a 'me' to allow that to happen?

In my conscious mind I'll have the intellectual awareness that there is no separation, and I will experience the experience with this awareness. Is that the best that the mind can do?

Yes but when you understand that it is only appearance, is it going to change?

As soon as you come into thought it appears to be so.

You see, you understand that the sky is not blue. Sky is only space. And when you get up in a plane at thirty thousand feet with space all around you, it is still clear and empty, the blue is always further out. We have believed it to be blue, but when you understand that it is not blue, you will still see it as the same blueness. But you know full well the truth about it. Now, it experiences and expresses itself through all this diversity. A dog has the characteristics of a dog. A cat has the characteristics of a cat. So called human beings have characteristics with the functioning of a human being, with their mind and body, etc. But knowing full well that you are not that, it is not going to make any difference to the functioning. It is still going to happen. As the Zen text says, 'before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water'. Before, it is a chore that is happening for 'me' . Afterwards, it is just part of the functioning, part of the happening.

No, I wouldn't think so.

Exactly.

But the nature of the thought affects the activity of the world.

Yes, in other words, you're being lived.

This means that your life and what happens depends on your awareness.

Yes, exactly! That same energy that is contained in that atom, which this universe as we know it came from. How many atoms are in that body? Look at the potential energy that is there. Now what stops that? We think, 'I am a separate human being'. We put the block on it. The block is the word.

So, theoretically, I could walk across Port Phillip Bay and even calm a storm.

Yes, but you are particularizing the consciousness. It is one universal consciousness. That is a trap also. You are being lived, so what would you do? Get as much of the blockage and the idea of separation out of the road and let the livingness happen. That is 'taking the brakes off’.

So it is not a matter of bringing truth or the One to this level of consciousness? To say that this level of consciousness can't live as One because it is contained in the One.... It is the illusion of separation.

Yes, that is right. That is badly put, to say to get your self out of the road. You just see the falseness and continue to see it. Look, investigate and you see the falseness of the so called person.

How do you get out of the road? That is like the person trying to do that, isn't it?

What happens is first off, all there is, is the seeing. Take that chair over there as an example. The thought comes up, 'I see the chair'. There may be some association with the chair, which I don't like. The color is wrong or whatever. So, the psychological response to the seeing is 'I like it' or 'I don't like it' or whatever. That response is the 'me' or the self-center. So, the seeing has then been split into the seer, this image that I have that doesn't like the chair. The chair, which is named from memory, becomes the seen or the object. Prior to that in the immediacy is just a registration in which there is this seeing. This seeing contains the chair and the response also. But the psychological response is the 'me', with all its likes and dislikes. Its prejudice and partiality is all that the person is. If I am aware of that just the same as I am aware of the chair, then what has happened? In that awareness is just the seeing, because it is seeing not only the pseudo object, but the pseudo subject also. If it is taken on board as 'I am seeing it'. Then the pseudo subject, believing that it has the power or the reality, is seeing an object. That is all that ever happens objectivity. The first object you see is the front of this body. But we don't take that to be an object. We take that to be the subject.

Yes, I feel like it's the person looking, the person trying to see that there is no person.

None of it 'rang a bell' as we say?

What is it that stops an instant transformation when I hear this? Why can I hear about this and it doesn't impact? Is it because I am hearing through the mind that filters it or is it just not time?

It is not rock hard solid. It is just like the reflecting surface of the mirror. Like the sun shining in the sky now can the sun know darkness? No. If it can't know darkness, can it know light? No! Yet it shines of itself. Its nature is to shine. Now, the nature that is emanating from that body mind organism: it is shining through your eyes; it is hearing through your ears. It is that same intelligence energy. Its nature is to shine. We put the clouded mind upon it and become poor depressed, anxious souls. So, allow that essence within you to shine. Let it shine through your eyes and light your eyes up. Let it permeate your whole physical being with its healing essences. It was there before the brain was even formed. It is vibrating and pulsating through you now. It is one and the same energy. It is that 'all presence'.

Is it correct to say the following? For the appearance of movement the physical movement of the energy that we observe for that movement to appear, there must be something that is rock hard solid for it to appear on?

Just see the falseness of the 'I'. Then you are left with it.

How do I get to it? I know I am already it, how do I perceive it through the mind?

It is happening right now! You're hearing. You're seeing. The functioning is going on as pure experience right now. The trouble arises because you are looking for something to grasp with the mind and say, 'This is it!' You see, you are looking for an experience in the mind to say 'Ah! That's it!' And then all you do is tuck that away in your memory, and you go along on your merry way looking for something else. When they say in the Gita, 'The fire can't burn it; the water can't drown it; the wind can't dry it; and the sword can't cut it'. What does that mean? Why can't the sword cut it? Because it contains all of those things , including the sword. Now, you will never find the answer in the mind. It contains the mind. The mind can never contain it. As we pointed out earlier, before that thought 'I am' comes on to you, are you aware?

I can understand that but it is not happening. Can you make it happen right now?

Right! That's it! But you can't say anything about it! That doesn't sound right to the mind because the mind is looking for some experience. It is very subtle.

Yes.

When do you move away from it?

Why can't I stay with that?

When is that happening?

When the mind comes in.

When the mind comes in, isn't it presently?

What do you mean?

you are still with it. You are only seemingly moving away from it. What past is there unless you think about it?

Yes.

There is just now! So, you see that past is an idea or an image in your mind of a moment ago or last week or yesterday, but it is happening presently. You only imagine that you have moved away from now. The same with your anticipating and imagining tomorrow or a moment away.

Yes, there is none.

It is not necessary to stop it if you understand what is happening, if you understand that it is still presence. When is it happening? Just ask yourself that question. When is all this happening? The obvious answer is that it can only be happening presently. So, is it anything other than presence? The happening itself is movements of energy. Thoughts are subtle sound. Sound is energy and energy is just vibration. So it is that omnipotence, that 'all power'. It is omnipresence, it is 'all presence. And the knowing of that, the awareness of it, knowing that I am, the pure knowing is the 'all knowing' the omniscience. It does not mean to know this or know that; it is just pure knowing. Pure knowing is the totality of knowing. Are you not that right now? Aware of being present? In the Hindu terminology it is sat chit ananda, or being, awareness, loving. You are aware of being present. And you love to be. Full stop! You are aware of being present. Anything else is still happening presently. Just the focus needs to move back a little bit and see. Instead of focusing on what we have been used to focusing on 'in the head' just pause for a minute and see the difference between that pure intelligence, the registering of everything and the thinking about it. Realize that you're hearing those cars go by while you're listening to me, probably with your full attention. You are still hearing and seeing other things, and it is still being registered. Try listening ‘in here’. The first seeing is formless. In that formlessness there are still forms appearing out there. The first hearing is silence. But there is still hearing out there. You are that formless, silent, pure being. It is very subtle. Stay with it! To the mind this is very boring. ‘'Oh gee! I can't live in silence and stillness!'

How do I stop this imagining?

Exactly! Let the mind go. It is that simple, so simple that we miss it. It is pure simplicity itself Stay with that subtleness, that silence and stillness, and you will see things and understand the ancients when they say, 'The peace that passes all understanding'. It cannot be understood by the mind. There is no peace of mind. It is the nature of the mind to chatter. You are not that chatter. The mind oscillates between the pairs of opposites. Peace is where the mind is not.

It is almost too simple for my mind to grasp.

No. Do you chatter? Understand and watch it. If you haven't got a vested interest in it, what is going to happen? It is going to die down. You see, when the chatter starts and I attribute it to 'me' and 'I want this' or 'I don't like that' or 'He said so and so' and 'blah, blah, blah, blah' I have a vested interest in it. Now, in that vested interest what is happening? The energy of 'I' and 'this'. The ‘I’ is a thought, and the 'this' is a thought. But that energy is opposed to itself. It is a dissipating energy. It is in conflict with itself. But if I understand that there is no center here and that it is just chatter and I am aware of it, then there is no 'me' that wants anything out of it. There is nothing resisting it. It is just what is. Then there is no energy going into it. Now, can a thing live without energy? No! So, in the watching of it, in the awareness of it without bothering about it, in seeing it for what it is, that it is false, it is going to die down of its own accord. So, there is no need to try and stop it. In trying to stop it, the mind will be in conflict with the mind. That will get you into all sorts of trouble, which it has done until now.

Is there any way to stop this chatter?

keep watching it and ask yourself who is this 'me' that is giving it value? Until it comes up that you see that this 'me' is only an idea. Where is this center? Where does this so called me start? Look and try and find a center or a spot in your body which you believe is 'me', or in your mind which you believe is ‘me'. Look as hard as you like. If you can find it, you come and tell me! I know for certain that there is no particular place in this body or this mind of which I can say 'This is where I begin', 'This is where it all starts'. In your own looking you will find that the false cannot stand up to investigation. You are not the hand; you are not your ear; you are not your nose. There is no particular spot where you can say, 'this is where I began’. Have a look at the body. It started off as a single sperm and a single ovum, which were the essences of the food that your mother and father ate. Where is that cell? That would be the center, that would be the start of it all, but that cell has doubled and redoubled and it is long gone. From another angle, am I this mind? The mind is just composed of thought. Which particular thought am I? Am I this 'I' thought, but where is that 'I' thought if I am deeply asleep or if I am unconscious? It is not there! That would be the finish of me if I was that 'I' thought. But the breathing is still happening; the functioning is still happening; there is no center there. So, when the chatter goes on and you see that there is no center to attribute it to, then it must lose its hold. It becomes laughable.

How do we stop? I see that chatter but I am still giving it value.

No. If you say it's an illusion, you're putting the separation on it. If it is just what is, you can't say anything about it at all!

So, even if there is no chatter, in this consciousness, one is living and being. One consciously knows that one is an expression of the One, and it is an illusion of duality that is creating an experience for the One to know itself.

That seems to be the dilemma. Our interaction here is on the level of consciousness. So wouldn't it be the technique to learn how to 'be still and know that I am God'? Wouldn't meditation practices be the best you could do to get there, if there is somewhere to get? Whatever this Swami or anybody experienced, it is still not it. The so called transcendental states are still not it. It does not matter whether there is silence here or chatter because both to me are still experiences. But that pure knowing, which they both appear in, that pure registration of everything, that is beyond experience. That is pure experiencing. If it is understood with the mind that no matter what experience appears can never be it, the answer is not in the mind, then you are not concerned with wanting to experience some so called ultimate state or non-state. You just stay with the subtleness of 'being now' and see what is in that. See what appears from that, the uncaused joy, the uncaused happiness and the pure compassion that comes up. As soon as they are expressed through the mind, that is the name that you give them, but you cannot say, 'I am experiencing this'.

What my consciousness says is that I don't experience it on levels that I know other people do experience it. I heard a well-known Swami talk a number of years ago and he said that with yoga practices, with meditation practices, one gets to know the mind, to use the mind to go beyond the mind. It seems to me that consciousness cannot know anything outside of consciousness.

There are all sorts of techniques; I can give you some techniques if you want them. If you can grasp what has been said here and take it away with you, it is going to hatch. It is going to bear fruit.

No, the Swami said that it was necessary not to be a prisoner of the mind. But he talked about techniques then, to become more aware of the mind, to start to know the nature of mind.

then you know because it has already happened to you. That is why you are familiar with it. So it will happen again. It has brought you from other places to here. Despite ourselves, it takes you where you have got to go. Not that you have ever been anywhere! How is it all sitting with you?

Yes, that is what I experience. To know something on an intellectual level is one thing, and I relate to what you said about starting to own something and then it starts to become your truth and then you change. That is a process I am familiar with.

Yes, that is well put. Intellectually, you don't recognize that you are the experiencing itself.

These two are saying exactly the opposite. They say that intellectually they know, but they don't experience it. I would rather say that you are experiencing it right now, but intellectually you don't know. Does that make sense?

Exactly! And when you understand that no matter how far you go, the answer is not in the mind, what would you do? Full stop. I am not going to bother looking there anymore.

Yes and that's it. There is nothing to know. The mind keeps on wanting to know, wanting to know. It is causing a problem by wanting to know.

Yes, because that is habit. It is understandable, because we have been conditioned from an early age, day in, day out. Just like the smoker reaches for a cigarette whether he is thinking about it or not. The habit is there. But in seeing it for what it is, the habit is starting to be broken.

But I do keep looking there.

it soon takes on the conditioning of the world. The young child is often laughing and doing things spontaneously and quite naturally. But after a while, at about the age of two, they learn to scowl, to stamp a foot, and you see the conditioning starting to form. Then they go off to school where they learn different looks, putting on little tantrums. And so it goes on.

So, if a newborn is in the company of say someone like you, would it also continue on like us or would it know instantly?

No.

That can't be stopped?

Yes, but know it for what it is and there is no problem.

You can really only know the world through the mind, through the word?

Yes. You're continually experiencing it. But just know it for what it is. You find that things just happen. You just sail through it. You see so many people on the tram or bus or train, locked in their heads, their eyes down. They are not looking around at the trees or traffic or the others on the tram. It becomes almost palpable.

But you have to experience it to know it, don't you?

Exactly! The bondage of self. The cage we have built around ourselves, made by words.

It is like your own little private prison.

if it happens that way for this so called particular human being. What brought you here?

We are very fortunate to come across this other view.

It is that same consciousness, that same essence, that so called, particular entity returning back to its own completeness. It has experienced itself and expressed itself in its ignorance. Now it has got the joy of coming home.

What do you think it is that brings us, no2?

We are talking about the bondage of self, I know that the bondage of self - kills. I have lived the life of addiction, so I know that. So what is it? I know what it is for me, but what is it that draws people? I always believed that it was because someone prayed for me, but I don't know what I believe now. Love is another term for light. Christ says, 'I am the light of the world'. That is that 'I am', that sense of presence. By what light do you see the world?

What I understood about twelve months ago, with prayer and meditation, where you allow the light to come in, you break away from that self, enough to allow something to come in, to break that sense of bondage... I know with my experience, I got to the point where I was not going to live any more. Something had to give.

Exactly. So light or love is that energy expressing through that body mind organism as that light. That light has sort of pierced the cloud. From the so called point of view of that body mind entity which is so clouded over, it could not grasp it within its own orbit. So, it manufactures something else, like the Fellowship for instance. Then it will bring you to someone who 'knows'. The whole essence is functioning, and it puts in your way what is necessary to bring you in a full circle. It might be a person, a book and bang! It starts you on your way home.

Through the energy, I guess.

It took that time. At that particular time there was the openness or a letting go was there or the self was out of the way, and the fruit had ripened at that particular point. Not all fruit ripen at the same time. Some may never ripen.

I was in the Fellowship for twelve years, and I had no concept of a higher power. I was the ego and it 'ran a mock' and then suddenly I had a spiritual experience just come upon me.

We told you before that you are already there!

Could you quicken the process?

Well...Full stop!

I am going around in circles.

If there is awareness, that it is all taking place presently, when are you ever out of meditation?

What do you think of meditation in terms of what you said on the chatter in the mind? How do you deal with the chitchat of mind and the going beyond that chit chat?

When are you saying this?

In terms of getting to that stage...

When are you saying this?

I am saying...

You're saying it presently. So, where are you going to get to? You see? You see what you have done? The mind has taken you to some time in the future. This is what we constantly do.

We are talking in the 'now'.

What do you think I do?

Okay. Yet, I still feel that discipline and aspect of working towards something on an everyday basis. Because we still need to live lives on a practical everyday basis.

When you say meditation, who is going to connect with it and who is going to implement it in their daily life?

So, I am talking about ... how do you actually implement this awareness in an everyday life in practical terms? And I would say that meditation is a way of connecting and strengthening.

So, you're saying 'me'. So, what is this 'me' that is going to do it? We pointed out earlier that the 'me' is only an image, an idea.

I would say myself.

So... Is that you?

I would say that I tend to be dualistic at times. I recognize that about myself.

Yes. Have a look at the world. The world is dualistic. If it wasn't in this material manifestation, you would not know that there is a world. That is how it appears. But you say that you tend to be dualistic. Is that you?

The dualistic aspect?

Who is the 'me' that is experiencing it? You see what I am trying to get at? To bring you back to that original, so that you don't continually jump out into this seeming entity that you have created. If you ask yourself this question, 'who is this happening to?’ What would the answer be?

it is kind of my experience in this living process.

Of 'me’ yes, but who is the 'me' that this is happening to? Where is this center? Where is this reference point that you are referring all this to?

It is a projection of myself.

Yes, but where is it?

it is a 'separated me'.

Where is the center that you are referring to? The separated 'me' where is it? What part of it is you? Where in your body or your mind is the self-center that you are referring to?

I don't quite understand the question.

Exactly! In your mind. Now, are you the mind?

It is in my mind.

Yes, but you are not the mind.

No, but I can't deny the mind does exist in the manifested state.

All right. Now you asked the question, 'How do you function in the world?' Now, if you are beyond the mind, you must be aware of what is happening in the mind! See?

I am beyond the mind.

So, what appears in the mind, what goes on and the activity that follows on, is that you?

Yes.

What I say is discard this ‘I’ that can't say that 'I am beyond the mind’. If you say that you are beyond the mind, that that is your actuality, then function from that point. The mind is appearing on that, on that pure intelligence that you are. But what it is judged from is by the mind itself, an image you have of the past. Now, being aware of that, are you going to lock into anything in particular? If something happens that this reference point 'Susan' doesn't like, you are going to do something about it. You're immediately there, and you have got to try and change it. But if that reference point is only mind or word it is not your reality what are you going to do about it?

At times it is, unfortunately!

Exactly! If the energy is not going into a thing, can it live without energy? No. So it will disappear! Where did it come from in the first place? Where do any thoughts come from?

Leave it alone!

But when you meditate, what do you do?

I would say that that is what meditation really is. It's really working into that very origin of being and learning to work with the mind in terms of it becoming a servant to that higher entity.

Yes, but you say sit quietly. Who has got this idea that 'I am going to sit quietly'? You get the idea? You say 'I am going to sit quietly and meditate'. So, that is the image again, the idea to sit down. And we try and still the mind or we try to watch the thoughts. So, that is the 'me' or the reference point.

It is still a practice for me. I sit quietly and become aware of a silence and the sounds moving in and out of the silence. And gradually I feel that the energy is lifted and raised in the body until the vibration gets very high.

What is a 'higher connection' or what is a 'lower connection'?

I would say that it is more or less coming from a reference point in terms of the higher connection.

Did you hear that tram go by just then?

It is where the mind does not come into play and influence. It is beyond the mind.

Yes, that was registered on that pure intelligence, just as it is, right at this moment, just the same as all the other sounds. You're hearing; you're seeing; you're tasting, touching and smelling. These are all registered just as they are! Now, until I drew your attention to that, the mind did not think a thing about it. But it heard it pass through. So, that pure intelligence is registering everything just as it is. That is meditation! Meditation is when you are never away from it. But when you think 'I am going to meditate' or 'I am going to quiet the mind to get a higher connection', that is where the meditators are using the mind to try and quiet the mind. You can forcibly still it for half an hour and then what goes on? It races away and gets caught in the same rubbish that it was in before!

it passed through...

I know so! I am talking from experience. But when there is nobody here, who is to meditate, what is there to meditate on? That doesn't leave you a blank. It leaves you totally alert in the moment, totally aware! Where you are not only aware of everything around you, you're aware of what is happening in the mind also, first and foremost. Are you aware of your thoughts?

Do you think so?

No, but you're aware of thinking?

I am not consciously concentrating on them.

Right. You're aware of those trams going past again?

Yes.

They are objects. You are aware of your thought and your thought is an object also. So, take it from that viewpoint, that they are both objective. Who is the subject? It is That which they are all registering on immediately, that pure intelligence. That, the mind cannot grasp. Why? Because it contains the mind. So, it is pointless trying to get at it with the mind. It is just to see the mind and understand the mind. Then you will realize that you are already there. The registration on that pure intelligence is functioning right now, presently, in its fullness, as it has always done. Have you ever moved away from that?

Yes.

You forget about it! When do you forget about it? Wouldn't it be presently?

No. I forget about it!

So what is it? It is still only presence. All the forgetfulness is still only presence. You have never moved away from presence. The mind is not you. You, that omnipresence, is the mind! Even when you are forgetting about it, it is still there.

Yes.

That is the bondage. That is what we have trapped ourselves in. And the word is not the real.

Yes, words.

So, what will you do now?

Thank you.

What I was pointing out to you was a direct experience. You see that and come back to that and you continually see that. That is continually your direct experience. You are not Susan experiencing this or experiencing that. It is just pure experience. It is happening continually. Then the mind interprets this or that experience immediately after the event. That interpretation is only from the dualistic point of view of the mind which this manifestation is. But to see that it is pure experience and the functioning is happening, to see that 'Susan' as such, has no reality as that seeming person, then the spontaneous functioning happens through that thing which we call 'Susan'. You see that, that is what always happens. If you see that there is no center now, when did you ever have a center? You never did, did you? If there is no center now, then there could never have possibly been one. So, that means that you have never had any personal volition. The life, the functioning has gone on, even though you thought you were running it, the functioning has happened. From that point of view, when you understand that, instead of trying to run it and change it or alter it, you go with the flow of it and allow it to happen much freer than what was apparently happening before, with the seeming 'me' putting the 'blockers' and 'stoppers' on.

I will take my own journey. In terms of us intellectualizing and talking about it and the actual living it and experiencing it that is where I feel that certain practices are helpful.

If there is alertness there, if that awareness is acutely alert, then when the tricks start to come up, you see them.You say 'using the mind'. That is what the mind is there for, to be used. It is not the enemy, though it is the cause of all our problems. If it is understood, then it is wonderfully creative. All the art, architecture, technology, all the teaching of yoga and whatever you are doing is coming through your mind. It is only when it is in conflict with the 'me' and the 'other' and seemingly in that separation, that it causes us pain and suffering. You get trapped in that habit pattern. And that is all it is, because over the years you have been conditioned to that way of thinking and believing. It has become habitual. Seeing the habit of it, you don't fall into the trap of it. You might get trapped for a while because that habit pattern is seemingly strong. But if you have seen the falseness of it all, it can never be as intense as it was before. And eventually it won't even bother to come up because the energy won't go into it. It will be seen. There will be an awareness of it as soon as it starts.

Okay. How does one perhaps remain true to that aspect when we go about our daily lives, when we are using the mind in terms of functioning and then it plays some tricks on us and becomes our master, rather than a servant? In practical terms, how do we work with that aspect of ourselves?

As you say, we have got to use the mind. the only instrument that we have is the mind. That is why the mind needs to be understood. Understood thoroughly! Then it is there as a very useful instrument. You say that all this programming is there. Now understand this: the mind is the past; it is the 'me'; it is the conditioning, all this so called programming. Can the mind be rid of this past?

You have got to use the mind to reach this conclusion, but the mind has such deep programming. The idea of intellectually knowing the truth.... I find in practice I can know it, and I can try and stop the mind, but basically it takes time for me to accept it gradually. I can be told it. I can understand it, as a little bit more and a little bit more. It takes time.

Yes, but can it be rid of the past?

I would have thought it was more about putting the mind in its place.

No, of course it can't. Because it is the past! When you see that, what would you do?

No!