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18d25eebbade-39 | done with the because he is one day to go the point is why was I doing prison reforms for the reason one day they have to go back to society let me prepare them for release so that they don't come back yeah so this man was also if he was to go back then I'm it's a reflection and I tell you they broke down on isolation and in the isolation this they slept on that same blanket they got the same fruit they got isolated and the same food no extra that is what it was real you say prison reforms in fact I gave them the real imprisonment then when they were isolated and but also gave them a counselor and give them books to read so they were also counseled a major general retired or a counselor for these gangsters and these hardened criminals and in isolated what a major gender volunteered uh during that time it's a part of my book and he used to come and counsel themes but same carpet same blanket same | gSjrZvYVQ4I |
18d25eebbade-40 | and counsel themes but same carpet same blanket same food same person nothing extra it was true imprisonment for them so that they realize what it is to commit such a crime and vipassana that's another thing and also automatically then we took them and that's when they melted completely to witness themselves that's how they it surfaced from within them but that was a later stage first isolated reflection counseling reading then reform and then Earth come back to meditation okay and you're you're a great believer in meditation yes I am you've written about it you've and you've experienced how it can change a person completely certainly the dry cleaning of the Mind dry cleans your thoughts try cleans your actions it's a dry cleaning of the mind so if you're looking for deletion and dry cleaning and deep decongestion that's when the dry cleans off all the negativity and starts you make place for positive thoughts but then you're also reading you're getting counseling you're getting bhakti in | gSjrZvYVQ4I |
18d25eebbade-41 | you're getting counseling you're getting bhakti in your this thing the whole environment is a nobling the environment changes you and it doesn't matter which religion you are no that doesn't matter because mind thoughts are uh and agnostic yeah it's negative and positive things are diagnostic you may believe in any faith but thoughts are negative or positive that you face resistance in uh in the prison when you stride yes there was a community which said yoga would change our religion I said you try you try and see because it's all about Mind Body Union so it's all about you and your mind and body they accepted it later but they had to be explained this is 25 years ago before yoga was big you were doing it in in tihar ma'am the other thing I remember I mean this is from my childhood I remember uh I even studied started studying I remember I was one of that generation I'm sure there'll be many who will remember this I I wanted to take the IPS just because of Kiran Medi let | gSjrZvYVQ4I |
18d25eebbade-42 | take the IPS just because of Kiran Medi let me tell you this you're you're legendary you would have been very good [Laughter] foreign baby because there were no cranes to remove badly parked cars when I took over his DCP traffic and the roads were clogged broken down buses broken down trucks and there were no cranes to remove them so people would divert people would get jammed up so I said what's the solution this is Asian Games Asian Games time there's a solution they said man we don't have cranes now I can't wait for a government sanction and the money to come so I hired all the Delhi private crates I not hide them mobilize them summoned them mobilize them made them earn for the cost they're picking up the car and we did a traffic fine it was a win-win situation and it wasn't that there were so many cranes this is what 1982 or 83 or something whatever was the crane private crane yeah I they were on my list and they they | gSjrZvYVQ4I |
18d25eebbade-43 | yeah I they were on my list and they they came in because they were also lying idle Japanese here they were not here every day they were doing business and that is what helped I did not wait for government to buy a crane I mobilized Support called someone them and then put microphones on them cop on them announcing we are coming remove otherwise you're done so we gave people a chance to including government officers see the message was fall in line it's we need clear roads for people too so regulation of traffic was my priority people must save time traveling on the road because you get clear roads unobstructed roads so that's how we cleared out orgaziabad borders Etc all by one crane just positioning one crane on ghaziabad Border at that time and the truck was afraid to lose because a truck maybe kundi lag jayegi and he's losing business they all cleared my roads by just one crane yeah but that that's your trademark ma'am that you know you believe in this discipline at | gSjrZvYVQ4I |
18d25eebbade-44 | that you know you believe in this discipline at all costs you know I've seen uh what you did about uh defecation open defecation and how you fought uh you know that it should not happen in uh when you were there in puducherry and it was like uh no excuses and I remember lots of people were angry with you because you took the camera and you said I will take photographs and they said oh look at this she's privacy so tell us about that how you did that sanitation is the first thing for any City management and any person worthwhile and I'm so glad our honorable prime minister talked about toilet toilets from the red Rampage of the Red Fort had he not done that had we not had toilets in place by then covert would have been a bigger disaster because where do women people go actually toilets had just been finished up built getting built and covered stuck people had toilets in their own homes otherwise where would they have gone and the disease | gSjrZvYVQ4I |
18d25eebbade-45 | homes otherwise where would they have gone and the disease would have spread even more had they been all around all this excrete around I think we just made it in time for me sanitation comes first before work comes it has to be clean surrounding green surrounding and healthy surrounding I think that's what makes you work and also they were not willing to clean those toilets you remember when that happened you documented that also and that how you got a you know some girl came up to you and said macaroni that's right so I think that's what happened but it worked when we showed this kind of Relentless determination just as you saw prime minister's Relentless determination they funded it CSR came a lot in making toilets God put social funding um Government funding state government States funding and determination actually helped and it India has become safer because of this otherwise we would have been seriously in the pandemic still if the toilets and all excrete around because flies mosquitoes | gSjrZvYVQ4I |
18d25eebbade-46 | toilets and all excrete around because flies mosquitoes are all getting you infected but now you don't see that it's come under huge control and water polluting what about water pollution because they were all sitting on the on the sides of these lakes and the same lake is going for recycling link yeah so it's it's made a lot of difference so unless you make it into a passion and it's not it's a mission I can't stay without it in fact my first second day in Raj nivas to Grand Canal of puducherry which was dirty which is Iconic for puducherry it was the second day of as left uncover why because I found the stink coming to rajnavas itself stink of a grand canal of carrying sewage water whereas should not have and when I started that recovery and who started it it is a local MLA who came to me saying ma'am can you come to my this is my constituency I nobody's listening to me MLA said nobody's listening | gSjrZvYVQ4I |
18d25eebbade-47 | nobody's listening to me MLA said nobody's listening to me ma'am I need you to visit it ma'am you were talking about uh stench dirty water lakes uh that was in puducherry yeah you live in Delhi you've seen the state of the yamuna it's so filthy you've seen and you've lived here in the month of October in the month of November when you cannot breathe the air you can actually smell you can see the soot in the air that we are all choking away but your former colleague your former friend is the chief minister foreign but what I think Delhi my city our city needs is Night Cleaning Night Cleaning Night clean body Cherry had Night Cleaning we used to do two level cleaning we used to do a 10 a.m cleaning and we used to do night cleaning so when people walked the walk to the streets they went clean we did it twice it spent money we spent money we got it so Night Cleaning earlier of course there was night cleaning but they | gSjrZvYVQ4I |
18d25eebbade-48 | earlier of course there was night cleaning but they were not doing their job here now we're watching it and getting it done so they delivered we had the Manpower we had the contract with swachtha Corporation and we were paying the money but the money not well spent now money totally spent because of supervision supervised supervised get on the roads yourself see things for yourself the municipal Commissioners the deputy Commissioners should take rounds photographs put them on their Twitter handle and say night cleaning and also wherever you're finding a dump because you have Manpower even in Delhi they just have to deliver better one so introduce Night Cleaning quickly and secondly is that we need to introduce a home a home digesting bring in a quick technology to do home digesting of particularly the soft waste right order recycling so it can be even rwas because some of them are now trying but very few make it mandatory every rwa has to handle its own issues of garbage management recycling plastic recycling um soft | gSjrZvYVQ4I |
18d25eebbade-49 | of garbage management recycling plastic recycling um soft organic waste once once you have this technology third find the technology to do dump management quickly you'll recover crores of rupees of land but also stop pollution look there are Simple Solutions but the key is Municipal commissioner the deputy Municipal Commissioners the locals the inspector date everybody walks the streets one hour in the morning how dare we used to do that I'm not saying something which is it's worked when the officers walk the streets they take photographs take accountability call the local area person call the rwa so I think citizens participation citizens responsibility with these two three steps Night Cleaning digesters organic digesters they're simple they're easy RWS responsibilities the local area panchayats right and then the large dump management for larger technology to start digesting it and make manure out of it power out of it gas out of it it's green gold these dumps are green gold if you want to look at it they have green gold because they | gSjrZvYVQ4I |
18d25eebbade-50 | to look at it they have green gold because they can be harvested for energy and manuring and many other components Elements which they have uh ma'am you uh you have uh so many ideas on uh you know how to improve improve our Urban centers I won't even go into whether it is city or town because you've lived in both you've worked in both uh and you have these ideas uh I know you uh you don't want to talk politics and you don't want to talk specifics but you did try and get into politics at one point of time and then you bid goodbye to it can can you still do things without being a politician can you still bring about change oh Administration can completely do it civil servants can do it What stopped civil servants to walk the streets what bars the cinema most the left and governor of Delhi is doing this but if he's doing it what about others he's doing it and that's where he's driving the change by the way what about everybody else there | gSjrZvYVQ4I |
18d25eebbade-51 | the change by the way what about everybody else there are lacks of employees in Delhi delhi's has very high population of public servants but you're seeing how much of resistance he's facing from the ahmadmi party even though the LG is material of that change anything Innovative original new will also get him credits well walk with him walk with him Nothing Stops you go with him you're talking about the chief minister why does the local Minister go with him there's a competition why are you competing he's playing his role you play your own why don't you go with him it will overnight change the city of Delhi stop competition stop looking for only credit work for Combined City clean clean City so but if the MLS don't want they only want to compete for credits all right what about public servants they're not competing it's their duty to do it they're getting caught they say between the Rivalry of they're finding excuses these are excuses they have their own duty to perform Smita they have their | gSjrZvYVQ4I |
18d25eebbade-52 | their own duty to perform Smita they have their own duty to perform they must do it for a bump fearlessly so if you were chief minister I know you don't want to get into politics and you don't want to talk politics but if you were chief minister what would you do for Delhi today one about the crime situation which we began the podcast with one was that and two to improve the living conditions of people in Delhi what would you do you say if I've a chief minister yes I would have stopped first of all that smoking coming from Punjab foreign it's not a question of acceptance failure it's not a question of asking for time it's like valuing people's time and being very anxious and angry why is territism but the question is that's that's uh you don't even feel uh hypothetical name ma'am because that means that you're not delivering on the promises that you made to your electorate isn't it if if it was made that we will give you | gSjrZvYVQ4I |
18d25eebbade-53 | if if it was made that we will give you clean air clean air is the basic thing right to give to your electorate clean air is the basic health today yeah in fact Delhi is becoming unlivable because you can't breathe my lovely South Delhi house I could sit in the balcony and open the windows Etc and doors and breathe fresh air I can't in fact half of the bread is full of dust it's full of uh it's unbelievable now city is unlivable and whatever we can do collectively individually and collectively regionally as an NCR we must do it as soon as possible everybody together because it's people's lives children's lives children's future their outdoor has stopped children's outdoor is gone for a Stars where do they go walking walking on the track how can they go running and jogging on the streets how can they go cycling how can they go playing and the schools also will say indoor indoor because it's all outdoor is full of dust which is a | gSjrZvYVQ4I |
18d25eebbade-54 | all outdoor is full of dust which is a fact I think we are affecting the next Generations that's a number one issue at the moment for the city and if the person concerned has a control in the neighboring then that is a major source also even if it's 20 even if 20 I don't know the research but even if it is why not why not because that's also under your control you have a dual responsibility yes so what would you advise him to do what exact steps would you tell him where should he Focus as a delhiite he's your chief minister to forget about what happened in the past he's your chief minister too what would you tell him to do to camp in Punjab camp in Punjab and get it done camp in Punjab I understand the research showing that the chief minister of punjab's constituency was the biggest polluter why can't each MLA of that place camp in their own constituencies camp in their own constant take charge and take responsibility | gSjrZvYVQ4I |
18d25eebbade-55 | camp in their own constant take charge and take responsibility each one of them camps there and saying this is how you have to be rated put the onus on each elected representative why not and the panchayats them and the panchayats will still happen but what is needed for the farmers provide them that I believe there was money available I believe there is a Machinery available I believe there's a technology well but I believe put it together but Camp yourself there monitor on a regular basis but put the elect the elected representatives who've been elected whoever it is whether it's of one party or the other each one of them is responsible that's what the role of the country City's chief minister is go camp there during the before it starts and go Village to Village Walk the village now this is not for Gathering votes it's for People's Health that will bring you votes man we discussed about what the advice you would give a chief minister now what would you advise the the | gSjrZvYVQ4I |
18d25eebbade-56 | chief minister now what would you advise the the commissioner of police of Delhi to make Delhi a safe place I do not know his style of working right now but I would like to see him more visible I see him driving technology changes very well putting systems in place very well I noticed that futuristic data management and predictions on crime very well because that's coming in the newspapers so my mind is only related to what's coming in the newspapers but I wanted to become I like to see leadership more visible that's exactly exactly what I said earlier if the leadership is more visible which means that he finds time to connect to the grassroot he can pick up a police station of the day right and he said oh I'm so busy yes you are exceedingly stressed out I know that but do not go away from the ground level the connect with people the connect with the people connect with not only the people but his own Rank and file they cannot see you the constabulary doesn't get | gSjrZvYVQ4I |
18d25eebbade-57 | file they cannot see you the constabulary doesn't get to see you visit the police stations look at their premises look at their amenities look at talk to them and find out how they're performing listen to them hear them out take our ideas so I would like to see him at least three times in a week visit police stations directly at announced or unannounced time would be good to have announced time give people a chance because you know overnight and then don't declare which police station will you go anyone okay surprise once yeah anyone but commissioner is going to be on the on the Move there's probably a reason why ma'am that forces got together and made sure that you did become commissioner I still remember the time I'm in uh God bless his soul he's no longer there Mr dudwal who is Junior to you uh became uh Commissioner of police and you didn't uh what did you feel at that time like you felt anger or you felt can't fight the system anymore | gSjrZvYVQ4I |
18d25eebbade-58 | anger or you felt can't fight the system anymore I moved on immediately I didn't hang on I didn't complain I didn't fret and fume I moved on immediately and I had my own plans and Destiny opened up many other doors for me I moved on but it was a huge loss because I trained half of the Delhi police wig as joint commissioners special commissioner training it was a very strong missed opportunity both for the force collectively and myself but and I'd grown up with the force so I know it but I moved on I didn't threaten few if you digital did I should complaint you moved on and upkeeperi came after that sudar basus see what a great opportunity that was where I became a Citizens judge yeah when I started to see it was not a Citizens Court you played many roles I mean you didn't it wasn't as if you you know when went away from the scene there was always something or the other that you were doing um becoming uh you know you | gSjrZvYVQ4I |
18d25eebbade-59 | that you were doing um becoming uh you know you moved even into that uh I'm going to tell the viewers that ma'am is dabbing on this typical uh Kiran bedi mam where she's got an injury but she did not stop and she didn't say yes in spite of the injury she's sitting here with me for almost an hour and and that's why I have I'm a huge admirer of Kiran bedi man um you tried uh you know you've always been connected with the people of this city uh and not just City I mean I've seen you in puducherry too it's citizens of the country also because it matters for you India against corruption was one you know where you just felt very seriously that corruption is is breaking the back of this nation and we will not be able to move forward tell me about your experience in that how it started why you got joined in and why you didn't just gave up I went for a cause cause was met because we did a successfully | gSjrZvYVQ4I |
18d25eebbade-60 | a cause cause was met because we did a successfully achieve exposure of the extent of corruption which was prevailing at that time whether it was Commonwealth Games whether to other Society in Maharashtra yes whether it was 2G right or wrong but Mass corruption we successfully exposed it to the extent and media took on and explained it very well and we also lobbied for the lokpal bill at that time we did get the ACT finally but without enough teeth Etc that came in later but we did we could put the issue on the table straight away and made it a national imagination and National dialogue I think I fulfilled my role as a citizen of the city as is because if I had not joined then I could have regretted later that that time while I speak a lot on television Etc you chickened out who got you in into that movement was it another's entry okay yeah it was Anna Anna and there were many other people joined in at that time so Anna was the main Force because Anna stood | gSjrZvYVQ4I |
18d25eebbade-61 | time so Anna was the main Force because Anna stood for like the the modern gandhian you know he's that's how he emitted that for me it is a nurse presence which made it so Noble but then what happened then it returning political it started it uh over a period when it became so beautiful so widespread uh the intentions kept started to change but without political um you know muscle should I say or without a political Direction could uh the India against corruption have achieved more like a fourth pillar of the government had we not gone political we could have remained that's how we were invisaging okay that would remain an independent non-political Force which would speak up of corruption anywhere not aligned that's how we were envisioning that this will remain uh independent Citizen's voice which will talk about corruption or illegality anywhere so that means it's a citizen's voice which continues to be together that's it that's what that was the vision at that time so Anna also believed in that | gSjrZvYVQ4I |
18d25eebbade-62 | vision at that time so Anna also believed in that position I'm not believed in that Anna would have stayed on to become a citizen's voice had we remained a citizen's voice also would have remained in the in the group had we remained a citizen's voice so what you're telling me is that more people wanted it to be apolitical yes yes that's what every the whole everything was considered uh trusted and believed that it remained apolitical then why wasn't it this Wing stronger as compared to the people who wanted to make it it was sung away it was completely swung away and Anna walked away so without under there's no movement but you aren't the kind who walks away and if if you walk away it's out of it I've seen you walking non-acceptance it was not acceptance it was not acceptance it wasn't for me that was not acceptable AV stood up for an independent voice to become a citizen's voice against corruption and that's how when it was now going | gSjrZvYVQ4I |
18d25eebbade-63 | corruption and that's how when it was now going to be used for a purpose and it was being hijacked away uh abandoning Anna it was a different issue but didn't you see the signs of it being believed when the signs had come that's how the cracks cracking had come and that's where the distance started to happen and then you supported uh Mr Modi in 2015 I think if I'm not mistaken you endorsed him openly and you supported him and then Mr jaitley thought that you would be perfect as a chief minister of Delhi when somewhere in that campaign one could see that your heart was not in it that you you just felt that this is not it when was that moment because that was not me even when Mr jaitly asked me suggested that I do consider this it was on one very soft point saying Kiran you are belonging to Delhi it's your responsibility to now serve Delhi but I said sir I don't know I I'm not oriented towards electoral | gSjrZvYVQ4I |
18d25eebbade-64 | don't know I I'm not oriented towards electoral politics I have no transaction in my mind I transform things but I don't transact I don't ask so sir he says you leave politics to us you fight the election as a delhiite and you administer the agreement between me and Mr j3 was very clear I would serve as Administration and administer and the other things so a agreement was I will not offer a penny I will not raise a penny so I no money give and take anybody came for anything said go to the headquarters so my clear was I've got nothing to do with political money and I've got nothing to do with politics I will serve I was administer which was my strength so he said yes you take care of this we'll take that was the agreement and that he wouldn't attack uh Mr kejriwal and the Ahmad that's why should I up that why should I see I have to say I have to say many times and they say would you give this free would | gSjrZvYVQ4I |
18d25eebbade-65 | times and they say would you give this free would you give this free I said no I will look at the budget and see if the budget prevents I never said yes you don't believe in freebies no I look at the budget if I made a budget and it's needed and I can raise the money I can budget why not if I can budget but I won't change the heads to I won't do it as a pre I won't do it to lure I you need it I'll give it to you you need it I'll give it to you but I have to budget it I have to earn it and I've got to let the people know you also have to contribute so I think that was my nature so I was very upfront even when foreign [Music] [Laughter] so didn't the BJP tell you that at least though Raman was handling my she was so nice in her kitchen and rolling the rotis so they said ma'am it is desired that you did this I said forget it forget it | gSjrZvYVQ4I |
18d25eebbade-66 | that you did this I said forget it forget it I'll not give you anything but I don't do I get it done is what they saying he said no no ma'am you won't do it no ma'am you won't do it this is not you so he was actually coordinating so beautifully she was respecting my authenticity so I was just remaining who I was so for me it was not saying lure of this position it was the responsibility of The Possession and you said you bid goodbye but that was it that was the agreement moved on you moved on you would not you would not like to get into electoral politics ever it's not by Nature electoral as I said it's not by Nature I'm not I'm very good in if you've got a constitution you got the law you got the rule you got the man part you got the budget and you have got the responsibility I'll get it done but not say okay I do this for you now you do this for me so tell me of all | gSjrZvYVQ4I |
18d25eebbade-67 | you do this for me so tell me of all the tenures that you have done from from crimes preventing crime against women in in West Delhi to traffic to uh to your jail stint which is the one that you enjoyed the most or you felt that you you managed to make a lot of difference lieutenant governor pondicherry yes okay it was first of all almost nearing five years there was no tenure which I did for such a long time all others were very short though we made modifications even in all these including two years only tihar but you still remember it so only two years but uh here I lasted four years and almost nine months and it was so fulfilling every day but I tell you I gave it all there was no Saturday there was no Sunday there was no night or day it was so fulfilling that and it was so rewarding and I could see people benefiting completely happy and very grateful a very popular I think it was most fulfilling for me also because I went | gSjrZvYVQ4I |
18d25eebbade-68 | was most fulfilling for me also because I went to it with maximum experience also ma'am you've met with so many prime ministers uh including Indira Gandhi and with Rajiv Gandhi can you tell us a little bit about your experiences your interactions with prime ministers I find the current prime minister highly result oriented highly professional totally matter of fact so he's very matter of fact very professional very Target oriented very measured and has no favors to give no favors to offer he is a very very strong professional authentic leader he's a totally he's a missionary at work I find him totally missionary at work he's a mission we look for a truly Karam Yogi he's truly you may agree with his certain we find people distracting but he's a truly Karam Yogi and his homegrown Karma Yogi and he's been groomed as a Karma Yogi I think the the organization has actually groomed a leader very rare of its kind he started uh being the serving understanding learning | gSjrZvYVQ4I |
18d25eebbade-69 | kind he started uh being the serving understanding learning reading spirituality ethics geography traveling all over the country understanding organizational skills he's a homegrown organizational person that's why he's very good in all these aspects because he's spent all his life learning these ropes you don't have any others learning the ropes from elementary when he started to Market with his father he was learning public relations he was learning Communications he was learning marketing how does he sell the tea yeah the tea how does he sell his tea yeah and he was also sensing how people buy why would they buy and he's also stretching Beyond and then he's combining a spiritual he's also gone into the Himalayas to uh so he's basically a missionary he's a sinasi in this dress so to serve this country um of a hundred billion plus uh one needs that kind of zeal isn't it 100 we are very to my mind without being adulating I think we needed a man like them in the kinds of situations we crossed | gSjrZvYVQ4I |
18d25eebbade-70 | them in the kinds of situations we crossed through we needed a man like him and I can tell you if India had can continue with this for the next five years you know what I had nothing to do with this I should look at my fate line uh I should like his speeches when he was making the speeches and I had no inclinations for either I didn't know what was coming I used to say uh I should look at my fate line because India was going through huge corruption at that time and India now needed a shift we needed integrity who leader comes doesn't matter but honest leadership right let's look at my fate line saying is as an Indian is my fate line going to be deeper as an Indian that India moves towards a whole trajectory of growth and makes an impact internationally because I was traveling overseas and I've seen what was happening so if my fate line is deeper India will be well LED without knowing any time the leader will come connect with me | gSjrZvYVQ4I |
18d25eebbade-71 | knowing any time the leader will come connect with me somehow and I took tweet also I should like his speeches and I used to tweet without being political or non-political because for me I was a citizen who was sensitive to issues I used to do that nice to say if my fate light I think we India has gained tremendously last I've just come back from overseas every Indian is very proud of being an Indian overseas today Indians are wealthier outside they're looking to serve India if they had the Voting Rights might tell you they would have loved it so uh you know in spite of the challenges that India faces today you you are optimistic about the future of this country if it continues it has a continuity and valid it needs a very important continuity of huge infrastructure developments which we made Investments which we've made policies which we made we need continuity and growth and we need to turn around this bureaucracy to become Karma yogis if we can turn around which | gSjrZvYVQ4I |
18d25eebbade-72 | Karma yogis if we can turn around which I'm sure he will and his team will he makes it team if he does that and each Karma Yogi is out on the streets and make a real self-driven self walking self-driven if every bureaucrat whatever the responsibility is karma Yogi walking the streets smelling feeling hearing seeing correcting Hands-On even for hour a day India would be different in next four or five years India has it all India has the potential India is no more poor India's rich rich in Manpower rich and human resource real rich and demographic dividend we only have to build on that and let it be have the self-confidence that you can India can be the best spiritually so powerful look India is being looked up to even spiritually today right on that very optimistic note ma'am uh thank you so much for coming here and giving us uh advice hope and uh telling parents and Society what to do to keep our public places and our homes safer thank you so much Matt well | gSjrZvYVQ4I |
18d25eebbade-73 | and our homes safer thank you so much Matt well thank you Smith that's been a nice long one but I hope this didn't irritate you too no no not at all the fact that I'm most honored that in spite of this you just continued undeterred that is okay for these are little minor matters thank you so much thanks that was my conversation with iconic police officer Kiran bedi I would like to take this opportunity to thank all of you for writing and writing in about your comments and suggestions on who to invite to this podcast and what issues we should touch we certainly will keep it in mind when we invite guests in the near future namaste foreign [Music] | gSjrZvYVQ4I |
c284a77fb99d-0 | when this narrative was created defense minister it was after about a month and a half or so that the defense minister himself said don't use the mobile the other mobile but it is ruthless when it comes to discipline we may be an army but we are still in an army of a democratic country where the politics or the political system runs and that should how it should be and otherwise we would be like Pakistan they were not harming they were harming the nation the personally goes the personal fights of the nation got affected because of that at the end of the day yes I went into depression I am not denying it because a cup seven years is a long long time one after the other Chief one after the other Chief and you are seeing the people everybody knows it is wrong but nobody's opening up his mouth foreign Namaste Jai Hind welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash today my guest is someone who hasn't spoken on a podcast or on television uh | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-1 | spoken on a podcast or on television uh about what he had undergone when he was in the Indian army my guest is Colonel honey bakshi you can Google him you can find out about what happened to the TSD or you can listen in to this conversation which is so Illuminating about what happened in that unit which was set up as a counter-terror operation joining me in this conversation is my colleague Ajit Dubai who has pursued this story for a long time this is a conversation which will reveal so much about the Army about the TSD about the role played by the Indian media the Army carried out a detailed investigation into the alleged wrongdoings of the TSD and in the end it dropped the general court martial proceedings against colonel bakshi colonel muneshwar nathbakshi or kernel hanibakshi as your more famously known as popularly known as thank you so much for coming to this podcast I'm guessing this is the first podcast you've ever done oh yes today in | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-2 | first podcast you've ever done oh yes today in fact I'm getting that feeling I'm facing the SSB for the first time okay okay we're very honored and also a little nervous speaking about uh this whole operation this whole uh you know experience that you have gone through in life what a life you have led uh full of controversy full of uh events everything which we want to know about today uh I'm sure someday we will make a movie another movie uh on you um I'm going to begin with uh you know the take the conversations you know straight on and begin with the TSD uh the technical services division for which everything happened in your life can you tell us uh when was it Formed it was this shadowy outfit you can tell us more about it when was it Formed what was the need for it uh who felt the need for it why when everything I what had happened was that when the Mumbai attack took place on 26 11 2008 the then prime minister Mr Manmohan | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-3 | 11 2008 the then prime minister Mr Manmohan Singh was actually very very perturbed about the whole issue and somewhere he felt that we should have the capability to strike back and give the pakistanis in the same manner that they have been kind of you know treating the country of us so on his orders or directions God bless us all Mr Narayanan had called all the intelligent Chiefs and the Army chief and he asked can we right now probably the country was not prepared and the intelligence Chiefs refused Mr Narayan and himself had been in the IB he had a background to it so probably he knew the capabilities of IB at that given time and uh he had some faith in the Army let's accept the the entire country has a faith in the Army and he then asked General Deepak Kapoor to why don't we start preparing certain special teams so Deepak Kapoor calls and lumba then the DJ military intelligence and uh lumba did some homework of course my name had cropped | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-4 | did some homework of course my name had cropped up probably through Mr Narayan because I had a little background to that attack not that I can mention anything about it but yes one of the recordings that was right now shown in the U.N of these at terrorists talking from the Shabbat house to Sajid Mir I'll keep it to that only and uh John Luma started working on it but somehow you know in our country things happen we react immediately and thereafter it dies down its own death now John lumba had faith in general we kissing they probably were known to each other idea so the moment the name came he flew into Calcutta and told him that now that you're the chief this is the requirement of the government immediately of course all this was happening I was not aware how much time has passed now in this period between the idea and the between the idea and by the time the TSD came in idea cropped up in November 2008 I was commanding a unit in | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-5 | in November 2008 I was commanding a unit in Calcutta handling the complete of the East all the nine states and I was given a hint sometimes in February 2010. that you will be moving to Delhi frankly I was not keen in coming to Delhi I had earlier served there a dirty City I was more interested in you know going to the Northeast one vacancy had come up it was a new vacancy so I was looking forward to some new challenge but I really did not know what thing was and every time he would call me up uh the reposting eye and I would say no sir General week is no General lumba and then I would ask him sir heck yeah foreign so finally one day my posting didn't come but I had to move on attachment to Delhi my posting came very late so it was in the month of March April March and April beginning that I landed up in Delhi um another officer had also been posted so it was just two of us by the time the posting | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-6 | was just two of us by the time the posting came it was already mid 2010 and uh it was a cold start so things started propping up in Kashmir you remember the 2010 Stone building it was taking a big toll on the economy of Kashmir leave aside anything else the education of the children schools were closed the ones were there so I was then given the task to control that and it was sometimes in August that we got into it by the mid-november we had contained the stone building just the two officers by then we had managed one JSU and haldar so we were all of four of us we did certain kind of operations we if they were making a calendar so we also started making a calendar um so we were able to contain in fact it was a well recognized operation the officer of mine ensured that he got a cinema Devotion to duty for that yeah and so this was uh TSD work this was TSD work and then by the time we started creating a team it was | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-7 | by the time we started creating a team it was already February 2011. effectively we came in in 2011 February January February by buying this there were two three so you were thrown into the Kashmir we came in and we were in The Cauldron we just came in we in fact we didn't even know which side the north was because uh you know you need to administratively also set up yourself you need somebody to you come home there's somebody there to at least open the door for you there was nothing you just used to fly and fly out fly and fly out it was like and uh but uh challenges are there it's uh how did you control the stone belting we'll keep that to him you don't want to talk about a lot of lives are at risk in this okay so then by January February we came in 2011 we were established it was just that we were there the organization had the people in the organization that time had feared that he can do it and I have a long long | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-8 | he can do it and I have a long long history in Kashmir Drive I probably is one of the only persons who have though officially two ten years but those two tenures are as good as four or five ten years so and I had served virtually in the entire Kashmir from North Kashmir to South Kashmir to Central Kashmir I knew Kashmir at the back of my hand so in TSD how did you choose your team or did you get the free hand to choose a team or was it given to you barring one officer when I landed he was already there he had a certain background so the people had thought that immediately you know in the Army we need a back you can't move alone uh the buddy system they call it a buddy system I call it a back because if I'm facing in the front somebody should be looking behind so that officer fantastic Soldier I would say officer is one thing but soldiering is another thing so it's a very fantastic | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-9 | is another thing so it's a very fantastic Soldier and then I was given the liberty so what we had planned was that instead of getting newcomers because this was at a very very high level the operations were you see there are operations which youngsters do which probably are effective or effective to a particular area here the entire National Security was involved and we were my whatever I said was reported up to the NSA so it was serious business actually so what I did was I picked up old stalwarts who had you know about 12 years 13 years 15 years in fact you won't believe it people were surprised when I picked up a guy who was very senior to me you never you didn't make it to a full tunnel though sometimes you know the way the system works good people are and they they left behind so the posting officer we call him the MS he called me he said sir and he's about to retire I said it's okay in the period in the window that he I will | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-10 | in the period in the window that he I will give him he will establish me so well that I don't have to worry after that anybody can come there after you know because when you come in you need to create assets fortunately I picked up people who already had assets making a set is something like your first love you know every time you make a asset and uh you maintain that relationship with him because he has come to work is not because he's Charmed by the organization of some time mostly he has come because of your personal interpersonal relationship so that way I was lucky I I got that free hand and I picked up from and then I these officers I gave them that option that you can pick up your teams whatever you can do your jams your gsus whoever you want article which he had written about your team Ajit has been following this story for several years so one of his articles which I dug out from the past yes he's a stalker he's a stalker of the TSD um and | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-11 | he's a stalker of the TSD um and I'm going to read out from his article about your team he said bakshi's first pick was Lieutenant Colonel Vijay B AKA birdie who has served who had served in the research and Analysis Wing the external intelligence agency he was awarded a gallantry award for his role in a classified operation he was bakshi's Point man against terrorist groups in the Northeast and Jammu Kashmir number two Lieutenant sarvesh D was the second man to be picked the veteran skydiver with 3 000 jumps under his belt commanded an army company during the kargil war later he was part of a special action group of the national security guard during a counter's terrorist operation in sopor Jammu and Kashmir sarvesh sense that his men were in danger and barged into a house where Afghan terrorists were holed up he killed them all and saved his men number three was Lieutenant Colonel Alfred b a season negotiator while serving with 28 Assam rifles | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-12 | season negotiator while serving with 28 Assam rifles he created Assets in the dreaded ulfa these assets were later used to persuade the ulfa leadership to come to a truce with the Army which Ensure short piece in Assam where am I four four lieutenant colonel was the fourth known for his wide Network among terrorist groups in the Northeast Zid had brought about the ceasefire deal with the Dima halim DHD Ultras of Assam he had played a role in the arrest of some of the DHT leader zeed gathered crucial Intelligence on arms trafficking into India from Myanmar and helped intercept Consignments bakshi's best pick perhaps was left in Colonel anurag AKA naughty so honey picks naughty if I may say diabetic and overweight he looked quite unlike an army spy a training injury meant that he could not work out and thus he gained weight many laughed when bakshi picked him but they soon found that he could walk for Miles through the hilly | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-13 | that he could walk for Miles through the hilly Jammu and Kashmir terrain with a walking stick without a walking stick no with the walking stick for support a master in cultivating assets among the terrorist groups he was one who could help the Army identify the real troublemakers during the Stone pelting protest in Kashmir in the summer of 2010 so though you will not tell us much about the operations that you undertook Ajit has managed to dig up I did still missed that gentleman that I was talking about you were talking about okay try to deep your next assignment right so so you had this team with you and uh uh getting uh you know one has heard about this buddy system uh in the Army so these guys were very essential to you isn't it see uh I had a very since I was a directly commissioned intelligence officer in fact from a batch of 400 odd that got commissioned we were just two of us who were selected for the intelligence so honored that somebody did you know | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-14 | the intelligence so honored that somebody did you know identify us then I was the fourth batch of direct commissioned officers and uh I in some use in in this long journey I had come across with them cernad worked with me naughty of course was my batchmate and this senior that I was talking about um a lot of regards for him a lot of regards a lot of fine gentleman he was and uh I so since I knew the backgrounds very well and zeer and uh Alfred they were with me in my previous tenure also in the Northeast in the Northeast so a lot of confidence in them though they had been overlooked to become Colonels they did not get the promotions but uh such wonderful people the team just give you a couple of you know backgrounds to this uh Alfred they will keep him melted only don't name is something else jelly yeah his name is only something else okay the B is the Realtors let me give you a little bit because it must | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-15 | let me give you a little bit because it must be somewhere in Kerala or Karnataka not at all not at all if I am sitting here and I don't you know bring out what my officers they were colleagues they were friends okay they they are still friends okay they are colleagues they're friends and they were through with me through my thick and thin and uh family right when you they're they're family they and if there's anybody in the forges family first that's a beautiful watch right so but then they are they're with you in operations which could mean life or death and you depend on them survival so I'll give you about first let me start with Alfred G iven in the Northeast and uh there's a big organization called Alpha Alpha has one battalion called 28 Battalion up in the north built in that area is the foreign Alpha that is where all the funds come in the Tea Gardens because it's all extortion money the Tea Gardens the collaris the oil fields the | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-16 | Tea Gardens the collaris the oil fields the forest the national highway projects so just plan to Dent the alphas Financial you know you have to you have to head them where it effects so there was a very hardcore I didn't want to call him a terrorist now simply speaking so when meeting was arranged with them and Alfred went the whole day they kept moving him from one vehicle to other other to others so that he's not being you know followed lest he reaches the place and the leader is eliminated of course REM wasn't at all because elimination is the easiest job to do killing a terrorist is the easiest job to do but to motivate a terrorist to come back to the mainstream it takes a lot believe me it takes a lot and and that is what is the requirement that is what is the need we are not here to kill people we are at the end of the day our first aim is there are some which will not change just too bad then there is | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-17 | which will not change just too bad then there is a second level where we need to get the violence down because any kind of violence affects the society out there there are people there the kids there there the businesses are affected shutdowns are there so second level is that and third level is when you can motivate them to get them back it's your country you're as much as you see the citizen here soup went there now night they reached they call it a jhoom huti hut and this man was there he had carried a letter from somebody so the meeting happened in the night and mind you Alfred all alone he's a mad guy here all alone after some time and Alfred is we all joke something like Michael darupika foreign that he was carrying his head flask and he asked that guy my pillow that guy says no we don't drink Northeast terrorists the undergrounds or whatever you call the militants they actually have certain principles they really have certain things so like the | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-18 | principles they really have certain things so like the nagas they generally don't harm ladies and kids they have a problem with an officer they will send him a letter warning letter and then they will strike okay the Warriors you you have to give credit to the enemy the wrong word to use though I guess yeah I get what uh wrong word to use though there are people only much better than the kashmiri Terrace any day any day believe me any day a lot of respect for their way the way they fight so now Alfred is sitting there this guy pulls out his pistol and he starts you know working on it trying to tell him that I'm armed I'm armed slept well in the night morning they got up and this guy asked Salford he says [Music] [Laughter] okay and uh this uh he didn't have an answer obviously obviously but they then became the thickest of the friends and voila this is forgiving seriously yeah this is how he was cultivated and not | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-19 | yeah this is how he was cultivated and not cultivated motivated motivated cultivated is a very wrong word to use okay well motivated and 28 Battalion had three companies two companies uh came into ceasefire one company which was being led by a guy called Chinese he kind of ran away with his people to Myanmar they went across tell us something about the Myanmar operations that you were involved in okay no it's the same again what happened was after this ceasefire came in unfortunately you know I was a media boy I was a media baby for some time and now I realized that good portions of the media doesn't cover there was one operation this follow-up of this when this happened there was a senior gardener whose wife was in Myanmar when they when they see carried out the ceasefire here he became part of the ceasefire so the alpha leadership from there sent a threat to him that if you don't come back we'll kill your wife and your daughter Mona Lisa Mona Lisa so now | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-20 | and your daughter Mona Lisa Mona Lisa so now this poor guy came back to us he said sir because of you people we came in and now families are at risk we owe it to our assets we were to our people that's what the army is all about we were in the intelligence we very rarely wore uniforms but we owed to them so we planned an operation we used another terrorist group our assets inside those groups this lady was recovered along with her daughter we brought her back Okay so so that's how it works confidence building not only confidence building you see the man has taken so much of risk to switch over you can't live so during the course of this podcast I am going to read out documents which uh I know you can't talk about certain things so I'm going to throw it at you and you are welcome to confirm deny or ignore whatever I'm reading out uh of the TSD the euphemistically called technical services division is my technical service division so um it says that | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-21 | is my technical service division so um it says that there were five jcos and 30 men yes or no you can't okay this is open source info this is open source information what is open source is okay and they operated out of an unmarked two-story building and uh within the Delhi Cantonment and it was dubbed The Butchery that was refurbished slaughterhouse of the colonial times some journalists have a knack to you know make it interesting yes was there a building naturally yeah where do we stay that was there was this whole thing about a general who came in and uh yeah that's a fact right to sneak in and get information that is also open sourced information no no no no complaint was we fight and complained in fact buddy filed the complaint he was offshooting at that time um heated Gun there's no denying it and uh worst part you know sometimes I feel key he tried to get in into the building you see I'll tell you something he didn't come inside the building | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-22 | tell you something he didn't come inside the building to take anything out I have a hunch and I I have survived on my hunches and mainstreams came to leave something there plant something plant something there since the board of Officer of General Bhatia was on and probably there was a hand in glove situation with somebody in the Iraqi and the board would come in picked up that thing and mapuri and he came in with a journalist he came in with a journalist yeah to plant something we'll get to that uh you know that whole thing that happened the inquiry and all that uh right now I just I need to know from you about uh what you were doing uh at those I understand that some of them were dark Ops and you cannot talk and dark Ops need to be off the books however when the TSD came under scrutiny some of those dark Ops were coming out in the open and you even wrote a letter requesting that they shouldn't come out no when I wrote a letter | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-23 | shouldn't come out no when I wrote a letter you see I I'm not confirming whether those dark Ops were there or not there are certain things which cannot be confirmed to others I'm Bound by certain laws or issues whatever beat you see when my haldar was going through a Court martial there was an alleged CD that supposedly had data from the TSD which he had tried to uh you know sell it that was the education so in the court martial the evidence was being taken there's a very famous seven judge constitutional bed judgment called the state of up versus Raj Narayan and um that politician yeah yeah yeah yeah in fact in the triple tala it was a five judge bench constitutional Banshee this was a seven judge constitutional event so you can understand the gravity of this that the Supreme Court honorable Supreme Court felt that there has to be a constitutional judgment when judgment and of that kind basically five seven nine so anything which is not in the interest of the nation cannot | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-24 | which is not in the interest of the nation cannot be taken as evidence okay now what is there in the CD nobody knows one man has gone to jail for 10 years any evidence anything that is there on record has to be first confirmed by some custodian that yes this is an official document then only can you charge a person under official secret Act okay so nobody has given this confirmation whether or none of nobody in the line has ever said that these documents that are there in the city belong to THD merely just you write type something and you write TSD can it be taken as TSD no so when that CD was to be brought in I knew the system was against me the everybody and anybody who's wanting is somehow fix him one of those things in life it happens it can happen with anybody so I in the interest of the nation I thought that it is best to you know now involve the defense minister and what happens is that if such a document has to | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-25 | happens is that if such a document has to be taken it is the prerogative of the judge in the court who once he sees with his wisdom that this is not a right document to be taken in fact he will ask that you get it signed by the minister that this can be given as evidence so when it came to me I I in fact did say that you know I don't know what exactly it is but if what you are claiming what it is then please get a certificate from the minister the raksha mantri yeah so this is word of man what a fine gentleman oh very very very very simple and very very I had the uh honor to have interacted with him two three times in the course of things so I did write a letter that it's not in the interest of the nation if it be what it be till date I also don't know what is there in those cities frankly hmm so B it would be I told him but somehow at that given | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-26 | be I told him but somehow at that given time the chief was they ensured that it was taken as evidence then they sealed it so inquiry sir we'll just come to that Ajit will also join me in that in the talk of that thing but uh before that but the beautiful part is sorry no no that letter that I wrote also got lead in the media yes everything got leaked in the media very posting I have a league my attachment came before I in fact got my attachment order it was signed in Delhi I was there in ladakh by the time it reached ladakh it was already there in the news that I am being moved to one day and you will not believe I had to tell the Brigade Commander there he said now the time hey and I'm already under threat yeah yeah because in the news where you leaking my locations you're leaking up with places including when you went to Bengaluru oh yes there was that attack that one person lost one lady died in that attack it | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-27 | person lost one lady died in that attack it was Front Page News oh they made a front page news DNA and uh you know and uh South Main elections it's actually a festival South my elections is a festival and it's like all in the newspapers and suddenly one Sunday now the mha has written a letter to the ministry of defense that provide him security they have their own ways of assessing individuals of course my wife had also written because I told her that you be careful my sources are still intact we aren't we are we are now under the threat naturally forward the file to the thing and the directorate wrote a letter to the IB mha and the IB that make an assessment so that assessment was made now the orders came in I did speak to the journalist I said yeah where did you get it he says I'm dead sure this order is there I said I don't even have a psychic as a full Colonel we have a buddy system so I said I don't | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-28 | have a buddy system so I said I don't even have a buddy and you were talking about protection so it was Center Page why a kernel in Bangalore we provided security and in that article literally they said he's posted to this place this office is in this road they were after me and there was an attack in Coconut Grove this restaurant where you know in fact I I sat with the deputy NSA that time I came back and came to Delhi and I told him the seriousness about it I said sir you've been to Brigade Road at any given time there are 5 000 people if somebody had planned a collateral attack basically your attack to have a collateral damage he would have just put an ID in a Dustbin on the roadside nothing is 20 25 people would have died but Church Lane where this Coconut Grove is is I said who do you think and that was the only place where I used to actually go and have my meals because it was not very far and I | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-29 | my meals because it was not very far and I you know we also need a little change of food from that mess food so I used to use my debit card there zero down so you've taken down so many terrorist groups do you think this information and this attack was masterminded by any of the tear groups you don't think it was somebody who wanted the TSD out you wanted you out and that would be somebody from the forge itself because no no no no foreign was probably not with the intent that iib targeted by a terrorist group it was somebody sitting in some department so my intention or I'm not trying to put down the forces but at that time if you recall regarding the TSD it was war and you got caught between two chiefs and then it was scalps mattered it didn't matter is that true or not see let me let me put it in a very different manner you see uh Armed Forces is what the people who come to the Armed Forces they come from the | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-30 | come to the Armed Forces they come from the same Society the influences of the society effect anybody who's coming naturally we have our laws we have our Acts cases they will be there everywhere they may be influencing the society so one of those things we are social creatures egos matter sir what was their issue I haven't they wanted they wanted tsdp shutdown you see uh sometimes in the interest of the nation um uh you remember the second land scam I busted that it was the head of the counterintelligence and counterterrorism unit in Calcutta it was on my I investigated it a lieutenant general went home the court has given him a reprieve that the punishment is a bit too harsh the Supreme Court has not said that he's not uh his charges have not been taught by the Supreme Court it's just that he be given the pension okay similarly what happened was General Ricky saying everybody knows this is a story it's nothing that a certain journals are the same general sub | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-31 | that a certain journals are the same general sub that you were talking about who came into the TSD location had come and he had requested the journal to refer his name for the for one of the intelligence agencies to head that as the chairman yeah that's again open source that ntro is what he wanted okay so generally what happens is that as an organization and as the head of the organization he would prefer that somebody is sitting in that so we get our share of information and intelligence when we want it's it's easier to you know work so probably okay with that interest recommended the name now this is that he's told the court and the marriage it's a it's a subjective matter that he came and offered him some 14 karors for a drug deal the Tata attractive what happened there I am not uh privy to it but yes one day until we get did call me and he said here honey and he used to be very he was very fatherly to me he said I said | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-32 | he was very fatherly to me he said I said what's up he said there are women and uh he says yeah foreign BSF the police in fact that Home Guard also once he's in uniform he has a duty to perform they were certain rumbles already that we were getting so I said so I flew down to Mumbai and I managed the documents of the famous or the infamous others building against that General he was the second phase of others was made under him so I got the documents the documents brought in and others is history thereafter so once his name problems up in the others case he couldn't get the NTR job then right so but um and and because of that file and so many generals because now in that NTR who think the names of oh sorry in the others think the names of three Chiefs came in the names of a chief minister came in the names of I had no it was a big and and supposedly there was a letter it is it's public document there's a letter | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-33 | letter it is it's public document there's a letter which the first general sub who proposed the the jio CM in the area would propose the building uh income clearances so he wrote a letter to the government saying we will make a building for the war videos that letter exists okay for for kargil and there was a you know there was a fervor in National foreign TK so then the clearance was brought in under the pretext of this emotional ferva that uh but when you went in to get that name out you didn't know Kia Hornets right you didn't know that I did have the list of the people who were the stakeholders in that I did have the list so this is what it was happening was that the brief probably expanded of the TSD yes the foreign a person in the government so I am the government when people say our government I am the government I am part of that government I cannot Circle my responsibilities if that was needed it was to be done somebody had to do | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-34 | needed it was to be done somebody had to do it um TK and when you do it thinking that it is in the National interest and you are not you know you don't have cobwebs in your mind your mind is clear so you really don't realize keep it's called repercussion it never actually you know crossed my mind so when the order is sorry documents papers chief minister had to go and uh the responsibility of getting the resignation from the chief minister was given to the then defense minister uh AK Anthony so uh did you ever realize frankly I came my job was to give the documents get the evidence I got the evidence I gave it for me it was over I had so many jobs to do I it just didn't come into the mind okay or it will flare up like this yeah this is that the philosophy of most of the good and end offices should be it is also and it should be because you are foreign integrity of course we don't have to give a certificate to | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-35 | of course we don't have to give a certificate to show that I am honest and integrated Integrity but that should be the theory that that should be the basis of anybody and everybody so when you've given an order it might seem at that stage that it's not that the objective might be military or national cause but the process might be a non-military way of doing things you know like say digging out a paper this is or this is not something those papers were dug out they were dug out they were already available through the RTI this that's the best part so so what I just had to go and meet the man who had taken these out on from RTI right so I really didn't have to it was just identifying the man who the guy is interested in getting these documents you will go with the thing that the order given to you has been given to you for a national cause and not a political no not a protocol it was not at all a political thought it never actually was it never | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-36 | all a political thought it never actually was it never actually was aim was very clear that in the nation should not suffer because of one Rogue person if it be if I can call it the wrong person you didn't at any point of time see because the reason is because when this inquiry was held about the TSD later they it was that there was mishandling of sensitive information there was also this misundling of sensitive um and then there was also allegation that there was political targeting that the TSD was used for which was one of the allegations was that phone tapping was done of the abdullahs and so these could be tell me was there a political let me first tell you there was nothing technical about Technical Services Division so that allegation that there was phone tapping Etc so there was no tech only human it was purely human it was it had got nothing to you see when you were in court operations you got to be given a story so that was just a story nothing more than that as | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-37 | that was just a story nothing more than that as far as political thing is concerned believe me the Omar Abdullah was the chief minister of Kashmir when the stone pelting was happening did they try to topple him or by containing the stone building we were trying to help him and stabilize his government simple it was a job to be done we did that now if he has something to rub with somebody and he starts that no I was being politically targeted and that's the wrong thing that's the wrong thing in fact I did meet him some other some in very dear friend's mother's death and I've walked up to him and told him I said and so and so I said let me assure you you untapped that's the least I can tell him do they believe you when you say these things when a narrative is created unfortunately the media which is such a beautiful role to play but if the media creates a narrative I do meet a lot of people and every time you | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-38 | do meet a lot of people and every time you know it starts I have to start explaining them then I have to tell them then they still are you know doubtful geese foreign because there was so much of leakage of information isn't it was not leakage it was being leaked and planted I know who was doing it I'll not name him here because otherwise it will again become a legal issue I exactly knew who were doing and let me tell you something karma is divine as much it is divine that much it is a [ __ ] there are officers who have suffered and I'm telling you I sit and I just observe and I look at you and I say I was a very spiritual man I still am a very spiritual man as I see killing a terrorist is the last thing for me if I can motivate him nothing like it I'm still very very spiritual and uh I believed in it because they were not harming Ani bakshi they were harming the nation | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-39 | harming Ani bakshi they were harming the nation they personally goes their personal fights became the nation got affected because of that at the end of the day yes you had such a beautiful organization that was capable of you know sorting out so many things you targeted that once you've targeted an organization which has been created and not less than an NSC look at it the need for an old such an organization came from there is a special secret organization I'll I'll give you a simple example that there were these stories no no it was his personal Army it was a secret army what was it doing what strategic requirement was there what national security requirements were there you know when for me it I have actually served the Army for 30 years was so much let me come to this pagalworldly story and then we'll come to this why it was you know mentally disturbing me I got married in May 91 prior to that I mean May 90 when just the valley thing had started and there were no counter terrorism | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-40 | valley thing had started and there were no counter terrorism units in Valley well he was more of a army deployment on the line of control internal rear radius security there was nothing logo there were people brought in on udhar from different formations outside jnk to come and operate there was no RR at that time no rushed rifles in fact you will not believe Assam referred to be brought in to because there were nobody and it was Mary Hill and uh so we were amongst the first people who moved in that was somewhere in the beginning of 90. and initially I was in URI then I was moved to kufaula carried out somewhere I I was fortunate that I had the Knack to cultivate now I will use that word so cultivate assets so first I created Assets in URI then I went to kapala where we started cultivating assets then by May 931 my I I went down chutti to get married and while I was coming back by then a division had been moved from somewhere else to | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-41 | then a division had been moved from somewhere else to kofara now so just so I'm sorry to interrupt when you say cultivating assets assets because it's such a American terminology correct basically you call them informants and Farmers yeah you see cultivation when you say it uh why is it a task how do you walk away you have to identify people who move around with the terrorists or are in the terrorist groups or the families who are not very happy about the Sun going in so you need to First identify them who are there you need to read about them you need to get as much information will be pliable okay and then you zoom into certain individuals and see if they can provide you information so you were doing this prior initially because when we moved in there was nothing it was just it was a mad mess there killing is happening Ambush is happening no counter 20 000 people had gone across to get trained and believe me uh we were deployed in a tactical manner as far as Army | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-42 | deployed in a tactical manner as far as Army is concerned we were not deployed in a counter infiltration role Italy in fact um loads of people used to go what does this means okay from Srinagar you're sitting it was en route and then you go to and from there somebody will guide you across and they're there in Pakistan okay whatever you call it so you were cultivating assets and then you go to sequentially let's go and now you go to get married so I go together obviously you didn't tell your wife that this is what you were doing but she's also from a 4G family she knows she knows the father was a colonel and her brother was a colonel yeah Colonel yeah my family by and large about 99 percent so she knew what she's signing up for yeah she knew what it's signing up for so and um I got married and when I came back by then the GOC baramulla he came to know that I am going to kofwala but | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-43 | to know that I am going to kofwala but earlier used to be under Josie then 28 div came in so he called up my boss in Srinagar and he said you drop him here send somebody else so a major general asking for a lieutenant Saab acting Captain for me it was a very big you know validation of my work so he got down there coming into baramulla means now I have to restart making assets all over again so it takes time it takes time so who had the time for you know being in touch with the family Mobile store training foreign [Music] so I requested my she landed I went to pick her up this CEO because she was the first lady after the first time she was coming after marriage so she was generous enough to have given his tough car which was of course a civil numbered car he is at the moment we were in the car no it was a single car in a place like Kashmir I was training her how to fire aike in the car I | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-44 | training her how to fire aike in the car I said if something happens you should know that this is how you go to [ __ ] and this is how you go to fire the trigger seriously it was that bad a situations and we reached home that night the CEO called us over for dinner so the couple of more offices so one scene is a balcony comes in he says Madam thank you you were going in for operations without a thought sir obviously means information means your window to react is very less um bulletproof jackets were still in the process of being thought yeah [Music] I had a very good success good success and that tenure I think I recovered 198k rifles so that was the kind of person I was and your team in the TSD you had phenomenal success as far as some of the operations were concerned which you yes we will not no I will not say but I can only say one thing that the dent see I had this Advantage I had these old | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-45 | dent see I had this Advantage I had these old haggards who were mad men who who were with me with my colleagues and I told them please tell your families the day you received this don't even ask for the body that was the level of motivation and dedication don't ask for the body Ka Matlab here no nothing more something sometimes happen just accept the flag that's the biggest honor we'll see Flags the best that the nation can give is that trigger it's an honor how do you prepare your family sir for these kind of things of your team yeah because family life suffers a lot it's not possible to do you know this isn't it this is during it this happened during the tsg2 offices went through divorce how do you keep your team motivated to go on these operations when you know that they're better motivate them they were all motivated that's why I picked them even if their personal lives were at stake they didn't see all these years we were working things were | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-46 | didn't see all these years we were working things were fine individual officers what triggers what triggers we really don't know what triggers sometimes my wife has been steadfast there were others whose wives have been steadfast so what this I mean and then there is this move to disband this and not just disband It Go for the officers go for their scalp what happens then why that why they have to answer you must be knowing why you can't talk about it it's known here there was a fight between certain Jews the Army Chief had one Chief thought that the first Army Chief was trying to block him and the media was trying to say that he's trying to change the line of succession what line of succession two officers and came up what line of succession it is the political decision so we we may be an army but we are still an army of a democratic country where the politics or the political system runs and that should how it should be and otherwise uh we would be like Pakistan you | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-47 | be and otherwise uh we would be like Pakistan you just mentioned General rawat yeah this uh targeting of yours was going on after this band disbandment of the unit first the howler faced this inquiry was given 10-year RI then your turn also came there was a court of inquiry against you also and uh seven years seven years so all these two consecutive chiefs were targeting you how did you come out of it in fact unfortunately uh when General rawat came up initially I had a lot of hopes but for some reason I don't know I God bless his soul he's a nice man as far as I am concerned he was a nice man for me um maybe he had certain policies which people didn't like it but as far as my own individual thing is concerned uh he was a nice man and uh again he was a very very deep follower of the Bhagavad philosophy and I am told that he used to keep a bhagavad-gita in his office you would have gone to | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-48 | in his office you would have gone to his office a number one on his front desk and one behind him so all his decisions were taken in the middle of so so what happened was that uh he had already finished about a year and a half his tenure and my court marshall started of that year and a half about a year the court the matter was stayed by the terminal so I really can't blame him for that and uh when the court martial started they there's a right of mind that I will be given the copy of the inquiry and the copy of the evidence which was not being given now that makes it that it was not a fair trial so letter was written to him and I quoted from the very famous and I quoted the last tens of it that summer um [Music] so you sitting silent I knew that he he was a Bhagavad follower he was he was using to debug with philosophy and probably that stanza affected and he immediately passed orders gentlemen give him a | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-49 | and he immediately passed orders gentlemen give him a fair trial because everybody was waiting and everybody thought that the previous Chief was from the gurkhas and this is also from the Gurkha so probably he's also in one day he was not but uh very kind and very generous of uh General rawat and of course my I I just came to know that he is a bhagavat if he believes in the philosophies so let me get to the point of abhi chiefs we've talked about the two chiefs who were you know getting the trying to or theme chiefsuke and then comes in general rawat we have talked about the Chiefs who were involved in this setting up taking out controversy everything role of the defense minister we've also spoke about the NSA it was the NSA who wanted this TSD to be formed uh it was a prime minister who said that we need something the NSA gets around doing it there with General lumba and the others who were involved in setting it up | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-50 | and the others who were involved in setting it up role of the defense minister supposedly he read about it in the newspaper that his phone is going is being tapped and then he confronts the Army Chief at this time I think his General break from uh no did he confront somebody and he says is my phone tapped and the general says is my phone tapped by the TSD and the general says that this is a rogue the controversy started sometimes in March of 2012. the issue had come up sometimes in the month of March and then we get retired then Chief retired in May and uh you see what happens is I intelligence everybody knows that they do a lot of things so probably had somebody gone to tell the defense minister that foreign it was after about a month and a half or so that the defense minister himself said I don't use a mobile which he actually never used so then the goal post was shifted defense Ministries you had this mobile interceptors did you ever | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-51 | Ministries you had this mobile interceptors did you ever have that kind of thing soon TK we are a democratic country and I'm telling you the army we are a very lucky country that we have an army that still stands for the democracy we are unlike many other Rogue Nations there are certain mandates given to certain agencies if that mandate is not with me I will not do it equipment foreign foreign foreign all tails I won't even call them fairy tales it was a narrative created to Target a gentleman and in the bargain the country lost a capability who came and told you that disbanded and you're being shunted out technically it's not yet been disbanded nobody has been posted there till date he was just we just got the postings the TSD still exists in paper foreign I only know one thing that we all got posted out that's it okay I'm going to read out again from ajit's article now this has become my Gita ajith with regard to this | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-52 | become my Gita ajith with regard to this story because I'm going to read out sir and then you can tell me whether right or wrong or you want to confirm or deny he says bakshi that's you uh is with a unit in ladakh where his job is to count snow jackets and mind you what I'm reading out is there in Pakistani websites also because they were very interested to knowledge article has been posted as to where all you people were located as soon as the tsds and she only told me um syndrome son-in-law was kind of you know taking her around again suddenly he says you remember there was so and so Bhai who was the managing the camp earlier foreign foreign ment where his job is to count snow jackets and shoes being stopped stocked for winter despite being close to the Chinese border the super spy has no role in monitoring activities of the Chinese troops all Top Guns of the TSD are in bakshi's shoes birdie is with the military engineering service in | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-53 | shoes birdie is with the military engineering service in shillong where he oversees plumbers and Masons who maintain the official quarters of the Air Force surveys the skydiver maintains land records of a small formation in jharkhand Alfred used to manage Polyclinic in diolali in Maharashtra after his father retired major wrote to the army that his son was threatening to kill himself up mental stress Alfred was posted closer Home as a national Cadet Corps officer in Rajasthan zeer is at a Polyclinic in Karnataka clearing medical bills of retired officers and jawans naughty two is with the medical facility in madhya Pradesh more than the humiliation of these postings the officers are tormented by The Strain on their families two are facing divorce proceedings with their wives alleging prolonged years of separation this is ajit's article up it's me as an army officer you can be posted anywhere somebody has to do that yes we were we were doing well as professionals not | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-54 | yes we were we were doing well as professionals not as career officers there are two types one is a career officer promotional promotions and most of them had overlooked their promotion boards but they were working they were working they were dedicated this was a kill team and you were calculating it was actually part of the job what happens is that the the appointment that I was handling also one of the jobs was uh so that was part of my job so it then Begins the inquiry yes against you in which you are involved seven years did you ever expect a fair trial or did did you think that fair trial is something that always happens but it didn't happen see mostly it happens mostly it happens there is a law there's a army act as a special law we have Army rules we've got Army regulations and uh but it is ruthless when it comes to discipline in my case it was getting ruthless because of something else foreign he comes from the same Society what influences he | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-55 | he comes from the same Society what influences he has had as a child when he's growing up and then joining the forge those influences are ingrained into him unless until he has the threat of a very ruthless act a very ruthless law foreign so it's a Commander's act actually it is a com it's an act which is in the favor of the commander but aberrations are there sometimes personal egos make it a issue there are cases where Supreme Court but at the end of the day he wins the case outside we are all same we are human beings from the beginning I will not get a fair trial why it was written all over the wall in fact I was asking for something which they were not giving me so I told them I said that I need that particular thing now officially I also knew um there's a rule to it and I wanted to tell them that there are certain pages which are missing from there to the court looked at me how do you know that | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-56 | the court looked at me how do you know that because the code of inquiry was kept in a quarter bloody but I exactly knew what is wrong in the inquiry without even having it with me so why told the court um you put a charge of five years imprisonment you put a charge of you know so many things I just needed that hint so in the court I sang a little song not exactly singing in a singing way I said then you should have seen the expression in fact I said I said one job one one of the honorable members of the Court martial he said sir Shan I said exactly I said inquiry foreign to the court Nine Pages were missing who do you blame so for this see sometimes foreign at one point of time you were even suicidal not exactly suicidal but yes I went into depression I am not denying it because a cup seven years is a long long time one after the other Chief one after the other Chief and you are seeing the people | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-57 | after the other Chief and you are seeing the people everybody knows it is wrong everybody knows it is wrong nobody's opening up his mouth that was actually a dark phase of the army your son had to change buses because no that was because of the threat of this terrorist threat so uh in fact he lost a year because of his attendance what was happening was that I told him I said you will not catch one vehicle one run meaning of mode of transport and go to your college every time take a change so how do you how do you cope with this you know because you were talking about Forge made this buddy system this you have your back everybody is like a family more than a family at times because every day you need their help to survive literally you know when you're in these operations did you feel let down by your own course mates patch mates a lot of people came calling me up I'm not denying it and a lot of officers came up in fact I would tell them | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-58 | of officers came up in fact I would tell them don't talk to me my phones are under monitor I knew it I told them my phones are under monitors your careers will be spoiled just because you're contacting me they were concerned they were concerned it is just that a group of officers and people who were made to get involved in my case that they you know I'm going to read out sir another uh thing you can confirm deny as I said I'm going to keep doing this um the observations of the then Deputy Chief of Army Lieutenant General d s takor who while appearing before a related Army proceeding said quote it is sad to see that the Witch Hunt against the intelligence Corps officers who put their careers and lives on the line and took grave risks in conducting these operations in the service of the nation still continues it is also sad that we don't realize what damage we have been doing to the overall morale and effectiveness of our intelligence core by | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-59 | overall morale and effectiveness of our intelligence core by pursuing such inquiries we are only sending a message to our intelligence core Personnel not to take risks and play safe it is our officers at the Apex level who should squarely take the blame for this state of affairs as without a vibrant intelligence core operations we will be blinded by the Army unquote do you agree that's very foreign proceedings as a witness he was running High viral fever but he came he one day walked up to my wife he came with his wife to my house and he told my wife he says [Music] hmm I was privileged I was honored to have worked under such people I was actually on it and that's actually what keeps everybody in the Forge motivated but mostly forges this this is the face of watch he has had the brightness to tell what was it people shy away that is what is expected out of fog I was honored to have served with him so there was that huh sorry go | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-60 | with him so there was that huh sorry go ahead yeah I said like you went through a lot uh your wife went through a lot your son lost a year there was a lot of trauma all around in the family not just yours your team members lost out on promotions good career officers do you people some somewhere feel that the Army did wrong to you you know Destiny is a very big thing as I said we all believe in the philosophy of bhagavata is there's a graveyard behind my house which is full of people who said that the world won't work without them unfortunately things went a little lorry now we are all enjoying our retirements it was a few individuals no it was few individuals Army is such a such a beautiful organization I am telling you you I again I'm telling you this country is very lucky that we are an army of a democratic country up can you guess it one of the most impossible things that can happen in this organ in this country is | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-61 | that can happen in this organ in this country is this Army conducting a coup never it happened never it will happen then what was that armored that 33rd Armored Division uh commanded by Lieutenant General AK singer's time would report it that there was this large contingency of Airborne 50 para Brigade uh that was heading towards it why did this the report come in the month of May when January was to retire and why not when it was happening you mean when they were moving it didn't supposedly January May supposedly they were moving see Ami every year conducts certain exercises okay and when you conduct exercise if it is a repetitive thing that happens every year right then there is no need for so new ideas come in a certain idea came in during that war game because of which certain things had to be validated I will not get into the I'll not get into it because it will reveal a lot of issues otherwise so it was a validation exercise basically to check the time | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-62 | it was a validation exercise basically to check the time and distance and the time and distance was if you believe me I'm sitting here it was not for Delhi at all and it was not a moment the way they showed the moment it was just basically to check how much time it takes for a body of troops to move from a place to B place it had nothing to do with Delhi so there was no coup That was supposed no not at all not at all this nation 's Army I am sitting here this is now a recorded and it will be there for ages to come this recording and I am saying it our army will never ever do such a thing we are we are not a rogami we are we are an army of a democratic country but relations between the civilian setup and the Army had come to such a low that people were ready to believe that article at that point of time the article was probably given from within the ministry there was a privileged paper that was | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-63 | within the ministry there was a privileged paper that was getting all the information see what happens you are part of the media if an official says something for you he's a source you'll learn it foreign there's nothing like that believe me so we're talking about uh the forge and uh you answered Ajit and when you said that the Indian army stands by its people and it's uh you don't want to cast any aspersions tell us what happened with Colonel purohit and and adding to it sir uh your case was between 2004 2014 there's a particular government uh there was this uh you faced this TST was started and disbanded both during this period uh purohit faced a lot of issues he was it was said he was helping so-called Hindu Terror so uh I know being from the end core you and Colonel purohit you think of friends so tell us what happened and now let me let me start with purohit as a person first I have had the purohit was some | SSd8G321VJg |
c284a77fb99d-64 | person first I have had the purohit was some kind of indirectly under me in South Kishore 2004 or five he's a third generation army officer and that was a very proud one very very nationalist now that things are coming battery subject is Ami did two inquiries first inquiry was one-sided so the court said kidney give him a chance and when he gave a chance he was given the chance in Army didn't find anything against him that's a fact okay secondly no it's a quote either document and again I come back to General rawat when General rawat came in and he probably interacted with him on a personal level or not I don't really don't know but General rawat immediately said give the officer all possible support that he needs for to fight his case irrespective whatever people may say but there are certain things which of course had you he was that way a very fair man and uh amongst those documents he pulled out one document which he wanted to produce in the court and | SSd8G321VJg |