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2aed5e27576d-71 | that was the time when I think I was really young and I I thought okay I will I will write something that he likes and then it made to the Anchor story but yeah you did also today this is what I tell young reporters that we are doing stories which we want today both stories the first story that a television story that I went out was a funeral it will but if if I did something with somebody uh the same thing with someone today I think after the fourth rejection I'd get a call from HR saying this harassment happening in your team so you can't do it now they don't work out I think you can't you can't reject a story ten times and say you know I don't like it what do you not like it I don't like it you can't do that they will come to if you I change lines all the time in whatever I did and then people would walk up to me and say what in it did you have an issue with and I had to have an | 9a-rhMfLPlc |
2aed5e27576d-72 | have an issue with and I had to have an answer you can't say that at least I don't I mean I don't like so I believe it's the same with teachers you can't since you have young kids you can't slash a page and say redo yes why why what was wrong was the headline wrong of not headline well titled wrong was the intro wrong was the conclusion wrong was it too long word limits figure it out yourself redo now you can't do that because you will hurt the sentiments of the child so just the same way I guess reporters have to be uh you know Molly cortled a little bit probably a little bit now yeah allowed you can't you have to be tender and gentle yeah I I at least that's my model I don't want to I also feel that a lot of people uh because I came from another city and I was alone and I was trying to uh make room for myself in uh very big world that is very cruel to people who come from smaller | 9a-rhMfLPlc |
2aed5e27576d-73 | is very cruel to people who come from smaller towns or from different towns and come into television media for me it was I think it was uh it was a very hard reset for me um I also came from a family where um when they gave they gave me the best that they could uh but my parents did not talk to each other in English or to us we are from Rajasthan and if they spoke very chaste Hindi I thought I'd done something wrong that that's how it was and very very basic very basic middle class upbringing and suddenly you're thrown into this mix of people who I learned from a lot but uh I did not have that exposure I did not have uh parents who were ifs officers who'd seen the world um I did not know their references my father just had one rule no TV no music that so that's that's I do not know what movies they were talking about and the new contacts no like uh foreign beat was all about Daddy's yeah friend and | 9a-rhMfLPlc |
2aed5e27576d-74 | foreign beat was all about Daddy's yeah friend and mummies so you you you're always lost and you were trying to find something for yourself the only thing that that really helped me was reading I have always been a reader and um and so I have I I knew theoretically most of the things they were talking about I'd not experienced them recently a woman journalist you know told me about uh when she was working in an English news channel and you know she she also did not come from privileged background or an elite background and she said that it's hard in uh in Delhi because uh if you if you didn't come from that setup because he says after after the bulletin was over or after everybody oh let's go to the oberoi coffee shop let's go to 360. let's go to Matan let's go you know so oh we'll go to Gymkhana they're all members their fathers were members their grandfathers were members we'll go for a swim here we'll go for to the gym here | 9a-rhMfLPlc |
2aed5e27576d-75 | swim here we'll go for to the gym here and they bonded like that and if you didn't belong to that Clique yeah upward trajectory didn't happen in your career yeah yeah so it is harder it was at least but that's not the case anymore isn't it it's become The Newsroom has become more egalitarian like that isn't it it has I think people are not uh people don't think that it's it's necessarily a bad thing that they're Outsiders I think uh I see a lot more confidence in younger people that they're not they just say that okay I am from such and such place I don't know this hmm and uh that's okay so I guess that's that's a good change yeah also the internet has opened up the world so much more now that people are generally more aware they're not as when I came I I learned a lot of things for the first time while I was here right this was 2005. although the internet was still there but yeah in the | 9a-rhMfLPlc |
2aed5e27576d-76 | although the internet was still there but yeah in the 90s I remember uh actually conducting uh uh we went out to a restaurant with 10 of my reporters and uh teaching them because they were going to go to do foreign beat stories so they would I didn't want them to it wasn't as if I was looking at them you know it's okay it would be an Indian we can eat with a hand but I didn't want them to feel small yeah you know I didn't want uh for Indian Foreign Service Officer to giggle with another reporter that is so we went out to a restaurant and I told him and then and then you know there was this one reporter who went on to join the BBC at one point of time who said foreign traveling abroad from my uh Seven Generations but then equip your reporter to do that you know but like today I've seen that reporters don't mind they have the confidence like you know we'll manage that we don't need to conduct this classes anymore to teach | 9a-rhMfLPlc |
2aed5e27576d-77 | need to conduct this classes anymore to teach these uh you know these nice cities or etiquette or something like that they are learning on the job with great deal of Panache yeah I would say much more confidence than probably we had when we started also I think there's a there's a shift of very um at least I can feel that in society that we are more as as a people we are more confident of our place in the world and we are not shy of saying that okay this is not what I do you know uh I always say G because to to somebody who's older or up because this is part of my culture I'm not American I cannot call my uncle by his first name and think it's okay even if I have a great bond with him that's not who I am so I've accepted who I am and I will say what I have to say Sir ma'am G I know it's the corporate culture my name is what about the workplace would you encourage young you know students | 9a-rhMfLPlc |
2aed5e27576d-78 | the workplace would you encourage young you know students to take up journalism get to television newsrooms print newsrooms yes I think I think bright people who have who want to really do something good interesting creative should take it up and I know the onus is on on leaders to also change the workplace and make it more you know incentivize it for for uh the younger lot to join but but this has to be a collaborative effort and uh I I see the pushback that they can mount when they don't agree to something me too is one example and there have been other stories where uh people who've been three months into The Newsroom have come and said we have to do this we have to do this because we feel so passionately about it so we need more of those people and I think uh I think we'll all be better off I look forward to seeing this new Avatar of uh Newsroom uh of a channel and of you as soon as possible we want you back on that thank you thank you | 9a-rhMfLPlc |
2aed5e27576d-79 | we want you back on that thank you thank you thank you so much for coming on the podcast lovely talking to you I have not had an interview like this I don't know what I said okay but I said whatever came to my screen it was great Straight From the Heart thank you so much thank you thank you for watching or listening in to Ani podcast with Smitha prakash to like or subscribe on whichever Channel you have heard or seen this on namaste [Music] thank you [Music] | 9a-rhMfLPlc |
e8ec24b64a1d-0 | the Pakistani people have never seen victory in their lives and I'm telling you this is very important Imran Khan has them believing that he has he has this magic wand you know Imran Khan you see the problem in Pakistan is that their mindset has been poisoned against India because of the textbooks in government schools five-year-old kid who's in school he is taught he is taught that who's your enemy um that is Pakistan sitting on the water tanker drunk and telling the world's nuclear weapons and they've been doing it successfully in below you can't imagine the agony of the parents the brothers and the sisters when people have been taken away the world will be a safer place without Pakistan foreign welcome to another edition of ani podcast with Smitha prakash today my guests are Mr tilak deveshar and major gaurav Arya two Pakistan experts Mr diveshar is the author of three widely acclaimed books on Pakistan and has also edited three books on Pakistan for the Vivekananda International Foundation | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-1 | three books on Pakistan for the Vivekananda International Foundation his new book is on the pashtuns also on the podcast is gaurav Arya who's an Indian army veteran and is the founder of the chanakya Forum he's a public speaker who you would have seen on many TV debates and on social media thank you very much Mr diveshwar thank you gaurav for coming today and talking to us so uh this is going to be a very interesting conversation I'm sure regarding Pakistan I'll begin with you uh Mr deser you've written this book on Pakistan which I'm going to get to shortly but first I want to ask you about the events the current events which are happening in Pakistan is very interesting because uh in in the years that I have been following Pakistan I've never seen the kind of demonstrations that are going on right now you know posters against uh against the Pakistan Army them going and uh attacking or you know the core commanders house huge crowds going for a civilian it's all | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-2 | house huge crowds going for a civilian it's all for Imran Khan these are these are supporters of Imran Khan and so for a civilian cause uh which is for restoration of him to become Prime Minister supposedly that's the cause attacking the Pakistan Army this is something which is absolutely new how do you see it you you're such an avid Pakistan Watcher how do you see these events first of all Smitha thank you so much for inviting me to your show Even though this has been a not been in existence for too long it's become extremely popular thank you so I feel honored and a privilege to come that you've invited me you see two things have happened in Pakistan to understand the background of what is happening Imran Khan was removed as prime minister through a democratic process of the vote of no confidence but his ego does not accept that he could be removed he feels insulted so since April when he was removed till now he has remained in the Limelight galvanized | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-3 | now he has remained in the Limelight galvanized the bosses and using a false narrative instead of as a politician we will come back tomorrow he has not accepted that so he uses false Narrative of an American conspiracy and tapped into the deep anti-americanism in Pakistan one second before you explain this more uh there are some uh viewers some uh some listeners who may not understand this concept of the American narrative or the the false narrative if you could just slightly explain this what happened so um he claims that a official of the U.S state Department threatened the Pakistan ambassador in Washington that in case Imran Khan is not removed relations with the U.S will deteriorate and cases removed you know certain beneficial things would happen and this Imran Khan said was sent to the Ambassador centers of the telegram or a cipher document to forward then he pulled it out and waved it in a meeting in a public meeting in March this is the American conspiracy the Americans wanted me out because I said | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-4 | American conspiracy the Americans wanted me out because I said no to their bases I went to Russia and in a host of other things is a deep rooted anti-americanism in Pakistan and he's managed to tap into that to that he's added anti-army anti-establishment again it's a it's a very popular thing too so this has been his so this is one thing that has happened in Pakistan so how is this uh thing uh of you know that there is you are saying this uh deep rooted anti-americanisms these are the pillars like you know India has you have we have the pillars of democracy uh where we have the executive the Judiciary and uh uh you know the media also the fourth pillar but uh in Pakistan it was these three pillars so up anti-americanism because Pakistani leaders have always milked anti-americanism to get more money from America okay if you recall in the case of Musharraf he created this scare that if I don't protect you there will be a takeover of the islamists | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-5 | you there will be a takeover of the islamists so the but for the domestic audience they will keep criticizing the Americans though they were willing to do anything the Americans want so that's why there is anti-americanism and not from now are we saying anti-americanism has been there for a long time so Imran Khan was installed by the Army where did things sour between him and the Army is it in October last year when General bajwa wanted to post Fez amid was DJI Isis core Commander because in case he was to be in contention for the Army chief he had to command a Corps so he wanted to push him out in October Imran Khan for reasons that are not very clear or people hint at it and these are non-professional reasons didn't want to let go of asameet and he wanted he said no we'll he should continue for some more time and things like that so then bajwa said look he just has to go and this was the understanding and the issue of | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-6 | go and this was the understanding and the issue of the orders brand Khan didn't sign on the orders so it kept pulling pulling pulling November then sometimes I think in towards end of November because 29th November 22 bajwa retired so if fairs have to be in contention he had to do a core at least for one year before that so finally Imran Khan relented now you see in Pakistan the Army has favorite politicians but they will never allow a politician to have favorite generals and that's when the institutional interest of the army came in and they said nothing of the sort we are not going to allow that the politician to choose which Journal goes where and you know you can't interfere in the chain of command in the postings that's how relation started deteriorating with them why is it so important to have your man as the isi chief foreign for a prime minister Imran Khan it was critical why because as um put it very uh in a very Punjabi way either the Army was | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-7 | in a very Punjabi way either the Army was even changing his nappies he didn't know how to change his nappies so the day-to-day management of parliament of putting together his majority putting together his Coalition all was managed by the isi all the the bills that are to be passed the election of the Senate chairman everything was done by the Army therefore he wanted somebody by the army or by the isi see uh let's clarify this here isi reports the Prime Minister technically the DJ isi selected by the Prime Minister but because he is is serving officer okay there is no way he can go against the wishes of the army Chief only once I think when Benazir Bhutto she appointed this uh elephant as the djisa all along the DJI Isis have been with the consent of the army Chief so tell me uh in the pack on top and then uh isi Chiefs you see in popular uh films and all these things that just a picture no it's the Army Chief and | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-8 | that just a picture no it's the Army Chief and the co-commanders okay you know the nine co-commanders are that is the college get leadership Commander is the most important is reports to him plus also he uh the units facing India fcna and things that's all commanded by the pinky so this is one element of the equation okay that is Imran Khan the second equation is retires on 29th November foreign government so he is putting pressure on this government too postpone the appointment of the army Chief till after the elections he hopes to win the election and appoint the Army Chief and he's told bajwa I'll give you an extension till such time as the elections are held that is one part of it the other part of it is that he does not want this government to appoint the senior most research General that is Asim munir as the Army Chief because there is no love lost between nebran Khan and Asi munir was djisi and within eight months Imran Khan got rid of | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-9 | and within eight months Imran Khan got rid of him for reasons against that were not professional so he got rid of asimuni within eight months of being dgisi and appointed Fez within a state so there is a panga there is a conduct between ASE munir and Imran Khan and Imran Khan feels that if Asim munir is appointed to the Army Chief by Shabbat sharif's government then the next three years when he's going to be Army Chief Imran Khan will be in the wilderness okay so that is the hurry for him to ensure that elections are announced the new Army Chief is appointed only by the new government and not by this government okay I'm going to come to you uh gaurav you are you're quite a legend in Pakistan you know all the memes that are made on you where your face has been taken and jinnah's cap has been made and then and you're called the father of the nation in Pakistan you've been hanged metaphorically several times in Pakistan for all your | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-10 | metaphorically several times in Pakistan for all your views on it so I'm going to get to the social media part of it but before that I want to ask you what I asked Mr divesha the same question is how do you view what is happening in Pakistan these days does it surprise you at all uh and you know like there are people like sushant Serene and all who says which is going and you know demonstrating or attacking the house of in Peshawar of the core Commander so what do you how do you see all this happening uh thank you for inviting me Smitha when it when it happened you know for the first time I could not believe that such a thing is happening in Pakistan because uh like you said the Three A's that is what we have that is the steady diet that we've been brought upon that you know Allah America and the Army but uh I think what is happening is a uh this is a fight for sovereignty also uh overall | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-11 | this is a fight for sovereignty also uh overall sovereignty of who who controls Pakistan and who controls the future of Pakistan that is on the face of it like Mr devasha very very correctly said you know it's also a race to appoint the new Army chief because while every Democrat in Pakistan might speak about democracy but all of them have been appointed uh by the army or the creation of the army creation of Rawalpindi was the creation of Ayub and then they're killed by the Army also because because they start thinking they are God and this is the problem Ayub Khan created was hanged by xiaolak the problem is that they go against the institution an Institutional loyalty has been very very important for the Pakistani army it's only now that this is what one of my Pakistani friends who's a journalist said that there are there are two kinds of generals in Pakistan you know uh you know uh so he says that the the religious kinds you know who pray five times a day and | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-12 | kinds you know who pray five times a day and then there are these whiskey swelling generals of the Pakistan Army and uh he said this is one of the divides of the Pakistani army now what he has done is I think Imran Khan through this long match he has stabbed into uh like Mr devasha said of course anti-americanism because that has been there for a very long time in spite of the fact that Pakistan relies so much on America no it's pretty much afloat because of the Americans for all practical purposes but also the fact that you know this this uh the Pakistani people have never seen victory in their lives and I'm telling you this is very uh important so when somebody comes uh you know where the the diplomacy is uh down right their economy was never up all right uh their army has lost all the words and uh every time you know uh the head of state is seen with the begging Bowl somewhere in the world and all this gets back to | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-13 | somewhere in the world and all this gets back to the pakistanis they have extremely low self-esteem yes do you think that absolutely that they have lost Wars yes you know the the narrative is that they have won the wars no but uh protest you can only do it against us why don't you fight against India this is what common pakistanis are telling the Army and they know that Pakistani studies is all fraud they know it's fake so coming back to what I was saying Smitha what has happened in Pakistan is suddenly here comes a guy who says that you know foreign absolutely not then I I will say I will say to you what Imran Khan said to the television anchor absolutely not Imran Khan is neither Sadiq nor ameen Imran Khan is slightly less corrupt then the sharifs you know that whole line it's the same thing yeah that used to be the the slogan for Sharif and now here it is so uh this I think this pretty much sums | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-14 | is so uh this I think this pretty much sums up Imran Khan this is what this is what he's trying it's it's a positive it's interesting if I can interrupt yes he was taken to shakut Khan Hospital when the people from the other hospitals this is after the attack after the attack when the people but listen that attack was no I'm just saying a different thing on Saturday okay so they want to do a blood test and x-ray reports for a medical or legal case to file a complaint they refused to hand over the blood test because it would have traces of drugs now this is not a conspiracy theory it's true it's not it's true they refused because but this is a fact it did not allow the new doctors set of doctors I think from General Hospital or something to come and take his blood report or the x-rays because traces of drugs in his blood okay so sorry sorry so yeah so tell me what did you feel when you saw these uh uh you know the | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-15 | feel when you saw these uh uh you know the the uh Peshawar said your pictures uh that entire night when one saw and it's gone worldwide you know the PTI supporters across the globe have in many cities of the world uh they've held these protests where they are saying and suddenly you're seeing people coming on the streets protesting against the park Army talking for democracy in Pakistan it seems a little bizarre you know that this is happening did you also feel that when you saw that did you also get that sense that if this is odd absolutely I I was shocked when I heard uh because because all the coups in Pakistan have pretty much been bloodless I mean the people don't get on the streets and people don't protest against the Pakistan Army that's just not done uh when I saw those images outside the core Commander's house I was a little surprised I said this is taking it too far no then they try to climb the the walls into the | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-16 | then they try to climb the the walls into the governor's mansion and stuff like that in Punjab and every all other places also they started this yes yes uh I was pretty surprised but uh this is what Imran Khan has people believing especially overseas pakistanis also a lot of pakistanis inside Pakistan crores of them but Imran Khan has them believing that he has he has this magic wand you know hmm nobody has asked Imran what your economic policies are going to be nobody's asked him what your diplomatic policies are going to be let's say you do become Prime Minister in the next six months what are you going to do no there is this desperation that's what I'm saying a people who have always lost it's not just about wars lost this game of life in every indicator whether it's passport whether it's public health they're at the bottom they're being compared with Afghanistan and Sudan and here is somebody who comes up and says this is what I'm | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-17 | who comes up and says this is what I'm going to give you I'm going to give you Riya Madina where everybody will have Justice there'll be fair play there'll be equality and you know it'll be a true democracy this man who says he's going to give pakistanis true democracy then turns around foreign this is the dichotomy that pakistanis have no clue how to deal with because they think it's just another day of office I mean uh just to you know be the devil's advocate here do you think that Imran Khan kind of realized that without the Army at that stage there was no way he could have come into civilian uh Power it was it possible because he came from no big political family nothing else he didn't have money power he didn't have anybody on his side so he needed uh not everybody even people with money power big family ties huge zamindars everybody they don't they don't make it without the Army's health or Army's blessings yeah Imran Khan was brought as | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-18 | blessings yeah Imran Khan was brought as a counterweight to the sharifs and the interesting part is you know this is the stick that Imran Khan uses today to beat the army with so the Army created a narrative the isi created a narrative that the sharifs are corrupt the sardaris are corrupt here is a man who's not corrupt you know and they kept on saying that the zardaris are corrupt and the sharif's are corrupt no this is exactly what Imran Khan is telling the Army today today correct that music and you put the corrupt people there you put the chores under the gas there all the while you have been saying that he's corrupted now he's there you've put him there and you've removed me correct correct so this is how he's turned it from yeah and also if I can just add she's a narrative he's built for the last six months all the fact that his government was a failure has been drowned has been totally diverted the | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-19 | has been drowned has been totally diverted the attention of the people if you recall you know he came and he said and then people started saying you know it was so bad but all that had been swept under the carpet and as gaurav rightly mentioned what is this program not one speech in the last six months as he said I will do this Jesus says I was removed by a conspiracy you bring me back to Power and Madina I get that uh that you know he's not talking about policies and he's not talking about what he can do and all but remember that when there is talk of a revolution policy matters don't really come on the phone if you see in India India Rahul Gandhi is out on this policy to to bring about some kind of motivation in the people policy matters emotional connect uh but you know let me come uh let me move a little bit away from uh imrano uh Imran Khan does a feature in your book I'm showing the book right now | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-20 | in your book I'm showing the book right now uh it's called the pashtoons by tilak diveshar uh a contested history the first thing that came to me was like contest history baby contest but then when I got around to reading it and it's very interesting thing it's a voluminous book it talks about so much about you know uh what a bloody past it has been for them and how difficult uh it has been their past present and it doesn't look like the future is going to be any different either a very interesting reading uh but quite rightly you start off by saying that you know what are our early memories of uh pashtoons of pathans you know we all thought of it as kabuliwala and then later you got to know that yeah okay uh dilip Kumar his real name was Yusuf and he was a pathan but then you also talked about how the uh Ayu Khan was a pathan the Prime Minister the president and our president uh was also uh uh a | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-21 | and our president uh was also uh uh a pathan and then you talked about Madhubala which I didn't know that she also had pathan lineage yes I didn't know that and Mansoor Ali Khan so then uh becomes so then explain to me that you know how is it that that the pathans have this cultural Affinity regardless of their political boundaries that you know divide our countries whether it's Afghanistan Pakistan India what is it that binds pathans across these three countries we have civilization links centuries then you had the maurya Gupta maurya in Ashoka who whose Empire encompassed what is today uh the Pashto land law Afghanistan you have so many Buddhist monuments and inscriptions or from ashoka's time and in fact before the Islam came to Afghanistan there was a Hindu shy Kingdom in Kabul and the Buddhist Kingdom in and thereafter then the pashtoons started migrating towards India the Delhi sultanate were the kiljis you're the lodis you are the | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-22 | were the kiljis you're the lodis you are the suris and then you are the rohillas you had principalities in Bhopal you have to inspired in tonk furukabad so there has been cross fertilization between India the Indian subcontinent and the pashtoons first going back centuries in fact you'll be surprised by the largest repository of pashtoon documents are actually in India not only in museum but in different houses every different people no enough research has not been done but there was those who have the largest uh you know most uh manuscripts books written in Pashto are in India so there is a very strong civilizational correction now you may have the talibar in power today and the government of India obviously for obvious reasons is not a very hunky-dory with the Taliban but people to people so whether it's sending fifty thousand tons of wheat or sending covered vaccines or any kind of other humanitarian assistance we feel a sense of responsibility because there is a strong civilization uh connection | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-23 | responsibility because there is a strong civilization uh connection you know uh gaurav I'm going to uh quote from Mr dareshar's book which one quote which I found very interesting had flagged it I flagged several quotations in fact one I found very interesting where uh Pakistan's prime minister he was asked in the Constitution he asked in the constituent assembly in 1948 when Khan Abdul kafar Khan was present and he said is pathan the name of a country or that of a community and gaffar Khan replies is the name of a community and we will name the country and his son Wali Khan was asked if he was a Muslim or a Pakistani or a pashtoon first he replied that he he was a six thousand year old pashtoon a thousand-year-old Muslim and a 27 year old Pakistani you know I found this it is fascinating yeah it's also gut-wrenching identity you know all of us who live in the subcontinent in fact I I don't recall exactly who | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-24 | subcontinent in fact I I don't recall exactly who it was who had once said that you know like a person who had a Bangladeshi passport you know like she says that at one point of time I had a Pakistani passport and before that I had an Indian passport this is a person who has lived through 1947 has lived through 1971 and now is a Bangladeshi I had interviewed her you know regarding a film which was made on India Bangladesh relations identities identity is so important and explain to me what it means to be a Pakistani and still not be in in uh in peace with one's identity you know like you mentioned about the pashtoons that pashtoons for uh six thousand years the Baloch have been saying the same thing you know they said that we are the inheritors of the marangarh civilization so they say balush for 10 000 years Muslims for 1200 years and Baloch and Pakistani for 75. so this is what the balotes say now Pakistan has always had a | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-25 | what the balotes say now Pakistan has always had a very serious identity crisis because they chose to Define themselves in a certain Manner and that is the root cause of the problem in Pakistan Pakistan has always defined itself as we who are not India so all the linkages and this comes from Maulana also of the jamaat Islam it comes from that school of thought that you know uh there's a very interesting thing in in in uh in a book that I read long back uh that you know be as far away from a Hindu house that you cannot see the cooking smoke coming out of the chimney so that that was what was said so you remove yourself now how do you remove because because most of them have got Hindu ancestry and therein lies the confusion so you concoct forefathers who came with Muhammad bin qasim yes they geographically removed themselves absolutely but 711 A.D Mohammed bin qasim comes to sindhan fights against Raja dahir and my great great grandfathers | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-26 | against Raja dahir and my great great grandfathers came with the army of Muhammad bin kasip and my great great grandfathers came from Central Asia or turkey or Iran etc etc now the thing is that you see and this is what is tearing Pakistan at the seams also amongst amongst a lot of other factors bajwa is a Sikh in Hindu name um he was here yes Nawaz Sharif is from here no not that no uh not that what I'm saying Smitha is something else I'm saying that these people still carry Hindu and Sikh names okay so so yeah Raja Ashraf you know uh uh uh uh there the Jack uh yeah some of them are Jarred some of them are gujar some of them are rajput so like for example okay right and you know that the cities the chatas the Chimas the rathors the chohans yeah all of them are in Pakistan and they have not many of them have not changed their second the last names the surnames because you take pride | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-27 | the last names the surnames because you take pride in the fact that you're judse but you're also Muslim yeah right pashtoons don't have that problem you know because pashtune for six thousand years they don't have that problem do the pashtuns in Pakistan not have a problem with it with their identity yeah no they don't have a problem with their identity because it's a civilizational thing you see for them their identity as Wali Khan said I'm a six years old they have got culture they have got pushed the way of the pashtoon there are more pathans used in your book I read I which I didn't know that there are more specials pathans whatever you want to call them in Pakistan then there are in Afghanistan I think isn't it and Karachi is the largest city in the world yeah more than uh jalalabad or Kabul so then but they don't identify themselves as sindhis even though they are in Sindh yeah they identify themselves as pashtuns just like the mahajras | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-28 | themselves as pashtuns just like the mahajras identify themselves as mahajas even though they are in sin they came from India in 47 but they treated themselves as a nationality but they came in 47. the pashtoons have been coming and going they don't they don't admit to the Durand Line they don't they don't respect it they don't believe in it they've been coming and going they don't see that divide because of their strong cultural ethnic linguistic commonality you see all of them speak Pashto we call it in the north which Imran Khan doesn't speak even though he's a pathan he claims but actually he's Punjabi from has ancestral um settle all this time but doesn't speak Dari or Pashto it seems he does not and the news he speaks Punjabi but but the the niyazis from Miami have been very kind to India yeah yeah very nice and this one is doing extensive damage in fact you know what Smitha recently had asked for people Indians | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-29 | what Smitha recently had asked for people Indians abroad to start funding the Pakistan and a lot of them have given money to Pakistan because he's on the Long March no and he's going to shake up the system so a lot of people are giving money now 10 to 10 pounds 20 pounds 50 pounds people have started funding namanzur.com is the website I can't do it from India otherwise I would have given half my salary you just stay true to your mission don't don't back down now you're now creating the ground for another foreign funding case against Imran Khan there is certain prohibited funding oh my God take funding from countries yes but Imran Khan is doing wonders I think I I said this long back one one and a half months back I said that uh in fact I I think I can claim to have said it first where I said that the Indian army or the Indian armed forces would not have been able to do so much of damage that Imran Khan alone Imran Khan | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-30 | of damage that Imran Khan alone Imran Khan foreign he goes to Bruce Wayne and the butler says that uh Alfred I think his name is an Alfred says master Bruce he tells the story that when he was in service he was in the SAS The Specialist service of the British Army and he says I was in Burma and there was this warlord who was throwing away rubies the size of a tangerine he was throwing it away and you know he would fight for the rubies he would steal the rubies but then he would throw it away so he said if he's not selling them or trading in roomies that's what Bruce Wayne asks him he said what's the point because he says master Bruce there are some people who want to watch the world burn yeah that is the nature of the man if I cannot have Pakistan you may as well drop a bomb that is what he said is that is what he said he wants to watch the world burn if he cannot have it then he does | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-31 | world burn if he cannot have it then he does not care whoever yeah exactly in your book you mentioned this that you know they are they are trying their level best to get over this image that is there with the pashtuns that what gaurav just mentioned there's this thing that as a community they want to fight and they are Fighters but you know there again is this is the conception uh narrative built by the British colonialists accounts of how they look at the British or how they thought of themselves the only one account I came across was by gaffar Khan's and I've quoted an extensive figure what is the question actually what is the Pashto think a person is like and it makes beautiful reading you know it really puts a lump in your throat that what does the Pashto think the Pashto in his life and it's not that they are Fighters but because honor is the most important principle of prashun valley that is defending your honor on the triangle of zarzan zameen | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-32 | your honor on the triangle of zarzan zameen you know women wealth and land they all carry weapons and because of that they have been given this impression and because they opposed British military um you know uh invasion of their land so the British gave them a thing of develop their Fighters all the time it's not that but I think if uh I think yeah I'm hunting for the court introduction we are content with as one elderly told uh elfinston we are content with Discord we are content with alarms we are content with blood we will never be content with the master because again says that we are all rain Zone wheat we all came up on the same day so all pashtoons are equal because they come from a common ancestor so I also writes that if farmer the dirty hands will put out his hand to shake hands with an emperor he has no blemishes no consciousness of that because he feels he's an equal so achievement you know the the status in society is achieved you're not born | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-33 | the status in society is achieved you're not born because you are somebody's son or somebody singing what about the tribal loyalties and their tribes so they're all they have to achieve it they have to be by fighting by owning more land by reading Expeditions or whatever so they are the biggest Democrats you know gaurav is mentioning about the baloches how are they different from the Baloch in that respect you see the Baloch have a Sardar who's head of the tribe and role of respect there is no inherited no sort of heredity a car that's all achieved your status is achieved either through War owning more land more Hospitality you know there's no Khan without a duster Khan the bigger you can spread your tablecloth and feed your village the more respect you command in society and people will then in a jirga is where everybody sits down together you sit in a circle there is no one who's the head man everybody is equal is there anything equivalent in | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-34 | man everybody is equal is there anything equivalent in India gaurav do you see any tribe any oh yes in the Northeast yes in the Northeast in the Northeast you have a gown Buddha a gampura is the head of the village and I've seen very senior uh ministers and very senior is officers but when they go back to their Village they have absolutely no heirs they'll walk around Barefoot and the Gown Buddha calls the shots so yeah uh this and and it's a very very uh evolved Society in the Northeast Northeast of India egalitarian absolutely absolutely I like the pashtoons you know the very reality yeah okay so uh we were talking about the Balochistan uh thing you know how is it that suddenly there is now this pin drop silence as far as the Baloch agitation is concerned it's you know the media's focus is only on the PTI uh March and there's nothing the the Marisa silent the book these are silent yeah it's like the | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-35 | silent the book these are silent yeah it's like the agnivir movement which happened and then suddenly they said that you know this government is collapsing and all the media moved over to the and suddenly there was no aggravated next day the agitation died down it's the media okay you want to point it out yes all of a sudden Supreme Court Pakistani Supreme Court so so that is that is you know that is uh pretty much how uh Balochistan the balochara minority in Balochistan numerical minority there are more pashtoons in Balochistan plus Balochistan is spread over Iran it is spread over Pakistan thirdly the reason why you know I I often think and I could be wrong but I often think that if Balochistan shared a border with India you see uh if you want to if you want to support a secessionist movement you must have a border with that like for example Kashmir like for example Punjab it becomes difficult for any government to say that you know at the end | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-36 | any government to say that you know at the end of the day they are like and they're like Australia as far as we are concerned they're an island because we we cannot reach it we can only reach them either by land that way or see directly otherwise there is no other way to get to Balochistan and this is where they have suffered also abject poverty abject poverty yeah you're talking about uh you know uh media Focus uh shifted from the Baloch cause but the thing is that Pakistani media has never really focused on anything any protest anything other than what happens in Punjab you know other they have not focused on the PTM March which is that it's been going on for so long regardless of whichever government comes to power in Islamabad they the March is going on there are disappearances which happen Pakistani media doesn't talk about that the Balochistan thing nothing absolute silence what is happening in their so-called Azad Kashmir the protests which are happening silence even | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-37 | the protests which are happening silence even on that and here you have in India you know everybody says a Pakistani media is so free and forthcoming by they are only focused on Punjab that nobody talks about actually Indians have no idea many Indians most Indians don't have any idea about Pakistan the Dynamics of Pakistan how it functions and this is the damage that Imran Khan has caused have you ever seen punjabis of Pakistan protesting on the street very rarely so you'll have somebody protesting in Balochistan you'll have people protesting this is the first time where the masses of Punjab have come down and started protesting against the Army an army that is 70 Punjabi for all practical purposes so I think yes and as far as you talked about the Pashto tahafu's movement uh see uh foreign all these are left-leaning people they're essentially Communists and they want Justice within the framework of the Pakistani Constitution and manzoor pashina has never said that I want | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-38 | manzoor pashina has never said that I want an independent country never said Ki Afghanistan he's never made those sort of statements now how does Pakistan react how does Pakistan react um this is their mindset and these are elected members of National Assembly foreign friends so many times I am confused against all their societal reputation how are the pashtoons so quiet and so nice they remind you of you know of Frontier Gandhi you mentioned him some time back yeah and these pashtoons the day the pashtoons start getting because they're two sides of the same coin and I'm not saying that they are similar they are not they're poles apart their worlds apart but the fact of the matter is that even the Taliban right they are they abandi Muslims right uh the Afghan Taliban and the tarike Taliban Pakistan the TTP now and they also believe in Afghan nationalism right and they said attack the company which is why they don't recognize the different line they said it's nonsense and | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-39 | recognize the different line they said it's nonsense and all we don't recognize the different line fact of the matter is that there will be a time and I very strongly believe and Mr divasha is here in he'll shed more light he knows far more on this topic than I do but the fact of the matter is that I think this is Pakistan's uh biggest fault line which is just ticking under the surface absolutely absolutely Smitha it is so dangerous it is so dangerous that what they have seen in Balochistan is nothing once the pashtoons get you know highly armed highly motivated enough members in the armed forces enough members in the bureaucracy right they control Karachi for all practical purposes after after the MQM uh you know is is on the ventilator of the Ico I mean it's there but it's not there and and uh the leadership is gone the leadership is gone and altaf is outside but but you've been outside for over 30 years or more 30 years yeah and | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-40 | for over 30 years or more 30 years yeah and now you can't even make those telephone calls which alsas don't get the crowds now this thing but the fact of the matter is that the fruit business the transport business the logistics business in Karachi is controlled by the pashtuns and where did that attack happen that Baloch woman when she attacked you know the Confucius Institute those people it it was done by Baloch was done in Karachi because and it came out in the Pakistani media none Baloch have a tie up with the with the Taliban the Baloch Freedom Fighters now have tied up with with various factions of Taliban or TTP for that matter it is the same thing I don't I don't I don't see any difference between the GTP and the Afghan Taliban I think they're the one and the same when we talk about patience and you know these disappearances you know yeah both Common Cheese and disappear okay it's a kind of an accepted thing it disappear okay somewhere | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-41 | kind of an accepted thing it disappear okay somewhere blood money has been paid or something has happened or the understanding he will stop anchoring you know or he will stop coming on television but we disappear it's a common thing how long or the theons are not exactly known for their patience and if this is the kind of atrocities that are happening on them how long do you think that that patience will last will that also explode into a kind of a militant movement against the existing uh you know setup in Pakistan you see first about the Baloch you see people disappear and reappear they reappear as dead bodies in below you can't imagine the agony of the parents the brothers and the sisters when people have been taken away and nobody is there to cover it yeah you've written a book on balochistana in which you mention all this for example did a program and he was shot almost fatally he you know so the media blackout is there because the Army this is the Army's red | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-42 | is there because the Army this is the Army's red lines you can say nothing about the Baloch or what we are doing in Balochistan it's only through social media now that things have started coming out similar with the PTM the pursue the first movement mainstream media doesn't cover them but thanks to social media they're able to put out visuals put out videos the diaspora then circulates it so people have come to know what is happening over there but the points that you made yes you see the key element of pashtoon Valley is Revenge and there is no time limit that's also a word which I I read in your book I didn't know it is badal it's not bad it's bad you call it but they call it they call it the famous saying took Revenge after 100 years and said he took it too soon so it is pushed their pushed you know generation generally after generation this it festers that I have to take the Revenge the killing of my father here they have butchered | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-43 | the killing of my father here they have butchered pashtoons like anything the PTM in you know when they pushed out when they did operations in waziristan two billion people have made idps to get Russians from in urban areas of Pakistan they were treated as terrorists racial profiling was done sub is all festering but there are thousands of them rotting in jails right now but when you said your pateka so today already what is happening is that the GTP which is an armed movement to demerger of Atta and that this feels our land this is we will have Independence over here now if they were to tie up with the Baloch no no with the PTM question which is a non-violent thing Pashto nationalist party and a nationalist violent movement can you imagine what state will be in of and here you have Pakistan who keep talking about several separatist movements in India but what you are telling me is that fata separate yeah there are people in fatah who want | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-44 | separate yeah there are people in fatah who want to separate the baloches want to separate or their so-called separated and they see the they see the prosperity in Indian Kashmir right now you know at the risk of being labeled as a bhakta right now I might just turn around and say prosperity in Indian Kashmir they're seeing that and they're seeing the gurbat in Pakistani Kashmir and there is but no nobody is talking about that in the Pakistani media nobody's nobody's referring to these separatist movements in Pakistan and also just to finish my point see Pakistan tried to drive a wedge between the TTP and the Afghan Taliban after they took over in Kabul they told the Afghan Taliban can you send them over to us and we'll take care of them said nothing doing because what Pakistan forgot was that when the U.S bombed the Taliban in 2001 they all sought shelter either in quetta or in waziristan and the | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-45 | either in quetta or in waziristan and the tribesmen gave them shelter protection looked after them and it is these Travis men Terror who are part of the TTP so as per pushed there is no way so they told Pakistan it's your problem you sorted out at best we will facilitate negotiations and ask the TTP to talk to you but you sought out along with your ulmas what their problem is and of those negotiations have broken down so if they have gone Taliban the TTP the pristunfels movement and even the mainstream parties like the Army National party which are pursued mainstream political parties they all got together recently in something called the pashtoon Kami uh and it's a very listen it's just a green shoot there at the moment but who knows in the next five to ten years what happens okay uh gaurav you know you've been uh you've been watching Pakistan for so long you've been in the armed forces in India and uh you have come | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-46 | the armed forces in India and uh you have come on television channels and you you're completely against this mombati brigade that you've refer to very often that you know India should open talks with Pakistan and things now we've also had an Indian Prime Minister who said that a strong and stable Pakistan uh is in India's interest you have said to the contrary that you know Pakistan you tell me now that if if what we are hearing now that you know the bhaktouns also there are separatist movements in Pakistan what is there any good for India if Pakistan breaks up or is it good for India if Pakistan stabilizes itself in democracy get some hold in Pakistan Smith I think it's a function of intent and capability uh today Pakistan has the intent to cause India harm but does not have the capability because of its own Shenanigans its own lack of money it being in the feta for more than four four and a half years close to five years uh I think all these factors are there the day | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-47 | uh I think all these factors are there the day the day uh Pakistan has capability there will be again a 2611 or an akshardham Temple attack they will do it again that's number one number two I'd like to say that you know former Chief of Army staff of Pakistan you know he said that if you have capability intent can change overnight uh you see basically what is happening I I you know a lot of lot of people have said Army generals have said and a lot of diplomats have made this point that a stable Pakistan is in India's uh in India's favor you know it will help India if there is a stable how I have it if somebody can explain to me logically I think this is this is like a lot of lot of people in Delhi they miss uh you know Lahore right and I'll tell you why this is a lie uh I I may sound slightly radical when I say it but I'll say it anyway and uh you know they have attacked us they have | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-48 | and uh you know they have attacked us they have killed Indians they've waged War the existence of Pakistan is detrimental to India's national security repeat that the existence of Pakistan is detrimental to India's national security that's a very radical Rhine I'll tell you why they attacked us in 47-48 they attacked us in 65 they attacked us in 71 operation changes Khan right operation Gibraltar in 1965. they attacked us in kargil why are they not attacking us now because they cannot they will attack us again and I'll just tell you one thing here a lot of people say oh you're sounding radical or you know you don't you don't you don't want a love there is no love between India and Pakistani but then a peaceful coexistence Indians have sold themselves and I think I am I I feel very very strongly because so many of my friends you know their names are in the National Ward Memorial yeah I I don't have I have no forgiveness in my heart for Pakistan | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-49 | have I have no forgiveness in my heart for Pakistan yeah right it can be an emotional reaction from my side but the fact of the matter is this is going to happen again and again till the time you solve the problem you know what we're doing wrong in Kashmir I'll tell you we what we're doing wrong in Kashmir Smitha is simply that you know a problem that exists in raval Pindi we are trying to solve it in Sri nagar right it's it's like a tap just say it is that you know even when there is a cricket match one commentator will say that today you're going to have this Grand cricket match between two nuclear parts that is the mindset the pakistanis have I'm not saying all of them are bad I'm not saying that but the world will be a safer place without Pakistan okay ah I'll just say one thing you see the problem in Pakistan is that their mindset has been poisoned against India because of the textbooks in government schools they hate | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-50 | because of the textbooks in government schools they hate it 18 minutes sorry to interrupt you has been poisoned they have poisoned themselves so it's it's the inherent bile within them it's the inherent venom in them but you know a five-year-old kid who's in school he is taught he is taught that who's your enemy which have been done in Pakistan itself and I quote that in my first book that is the kind of hatred that has been generated if Pakistan was to change the textbooks today the first student will come out after 15 18 20 years but they've been brainwashed over Generations look so you know you can't expect any kind of especially in Punjabi schools in Punjab schools a Punjabi musalman is the real hatred against India and against Hindu comes from them and they are the dominant community in Pakistan so when you know you've you've been uh you've been in the government you've now uh you're an author you also are in the National Security Advisory Board now in | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-51 | are in the National Security Advisory Board now in you've seen you met with pakistanis you've you've been part of conversations where they you know which is a different line than what gaurav is saying where he says that existence of Pakistan is detrimental to India's continuity but you've heard the other side too what is their point of view do they really are they is there a constituency in Pakistan which thinks that nehem coexistence it's only Tactical because you're in a back foot because you're in a weak Wicket yes and a Punjabi will always compromise I'm sorry to sound uh you know but they're very practical one minute when you say Punjabi will only compromise what you you what you're saying is that the conversation happens only among the punjabis the others don't matter in Pakistan don't have a problem they're not so much concerned about Kashmir the problem the Wellspring for hatred against India comes from Punjab and today because they're in a week Wicket they see the | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-52 | because they're in a week Wicket they see the development that is taking place in India the Indian economy is doing so uh so well and India is doing well it's diplomatically is doing so well they say you know now let's moderate our uh you know whatever we want to do let's improve ourselves get to a position of strength and then okay I will see other capability intent will change so yeah it's a tactical thing or if I think that's exactly what you were talking about what I'm trying to also say is apart from what Mr dewasher said about the radicalization of the Punjabi textbooks uh three years back I was in anantanag before this covert thing happened and I usually carry these toffees and chocolates in my pocket and you know you wave to kids and you go away and all that so I like to interact with people there and kids and all that so I do that I quoted this once before and I said um somebody said foreign this girl said this five | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-53 | said um somebody said foreign this girl said this five six years old who poisoned her mind and and I asked the colonel there the Russia rifles officer who was there with me he said sir I can fight against Pakistan I can fight against lushkar but in front of this girl I have lost my weapons are useless in front of this is blow yourself up and kill 40 people we are fighting against a mindset and I'm telling you dramatic though it may sound this is not hateful I'm just being truthful that this is an existential fight yeah this is tactical like Mr devasha said exactly yeah they'll again uh if that is at a faster Pace or as an equal Pace will that be able to combat this you know this this radicalization which happens we can do it at that place right Kerala is the most literate state in India right now it's not just about education it's about Mahal it's about environment also you know you were talking about social media a short while | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-54 | know you were talking about social media a short while ago that uh the media was controlled and that's why people in Pakistan didn't know much about it but social media now you know I'm going to come into the aspect of information Warfare uh the the isi moves like like a you know a platoon when it comes to information Warfare India on the other hand seems like it is fighting on the back foot all the time do you feel that too do you see the the problem in India I think is that we still have not recognized media as an element of National Power we are still very apprehensive about the media it's a double-edged weapon is Pakistan is a weaponized media you look at the ispr and the info operations of the isi they have recruited thousands of young people so they can start a Twitter storm a hashtag campaign at the top of a hat you know in that cricket match yeah he dropped a catch and look at the kind of so they're looking for opportunities because they know that media | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-55 | they're looking for opportunities because they know that media is an element of National Power we have to develop that mindset and look at strategic communication as a whole of government approach you know I hand out and you expect the media will pick it up and not develop it into it doesn't work that with today's age you have to get a narrative in first and get it ineffectively you have to get your narrative in first and for that you need very sharp people recognizing that the element of National Power you know uh gaurav for the one person who may not know who's watching this show on YouTube or whatever that you know you're actually a major also a major in the Army uh and you serve the forces this ashdeep thing is something which is so recent it it bothered me so much it shouldn't have but it it really gave me sleepless nights you know for you know for our viewers or listeners uh in sitting in countries where Cricket is not a religion just to recap a little | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-56 | is not a religion just to recap a little bit and there was this dropped catch by an Indian cricketer ashtip and and within minutes after he dropped it the entire Pakistani crowd on Twitter started off that we have won the match because of this guy who's uh you know obviously he's a Sikh and seek means khalistani and Sikh has betrayed India and stood by Pakistan now by the time you know Indians or India tried to say that yay these are not indians who are saying this these are these Twitter handles are by pakistanis which was some Anonymous Handle by about 3 A.M India time who brought out the IP addresses and said that these are not indians who are saying it by they are not indians screaming at ashdeep on Twitter these are Pakistani handles you know by then it had picked up a life of its own and then even Indian newspapers and ethnic newspapers abroad and then foreign newspapers had all picked that up the websites had all picked up | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-57 | all picked that up the websites had all picked up because and by the time India woke up and India reacted I'm I mean official handles it had it was seven years damage had been done by then yes you know so our information Warfare as I said it doesn't move with the speed that ispr does and I'm not even convinced that those were ispr handles you never know they could be just some radicalized Pakistani handles who are sitting and doing this shaking it I often tell the pakistanis that the only strike Corps that Pakistan has ispr Pakistan again I'm going to interrupt you because there might be people who don't even know the full form of ispr and what the ispr does so so in 1949 Pakistan created a tri-services agency called the inter-services public relations and while it's called inter Services the head is more or less always a army man that's what I've seen in the past 20 25 years I don't know if I've missed out somebody but generally it's a Kaki worthy wearing | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-58 | somebody but generally it's a Kaki worthy wearing guy and they are the people who do information Warfare and public relations for the Pakistan Army they are the people who ordered the shooting of a Hamid Meer say that is these are the people who probably the media who tell pemra right the the electronic regulatory Authority in Pakistan all these things so the flow of information is managed by ispr and they try to manage the national flow of information not just sarkari but also civilian which includes Electronic media web Twitter Facebook etc etc what Pakistan does is Pakistan has realized that this is not a 4g's game and this is something that we in India have not realized and we must yes you need songwriters you need editors you need poets right uh you you need you need script writers you need hackers you need people who are like human bots in their thousands this is what you need this is not something that you see today in today's when we talk about Network Centric Warfare and where 5G has come in | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-59 | Network Centric Warfare and where 5G has come in and all that today one or two teenagers with laptops right can cause far more damage than an infantry Brigade they can cause far more damage we need to realize it's it's cyber it's information Warfare and I think what and India can do it 10 times better than Pakistan because in the end it's a function of vision and money it's a function of vision and money who understands that this is important get a building in place that's what I've told people get a building in place fill it up with people right tell them and this building takes 24 into seven this building never sleeps foreign and Trust You me when I say this I know what to do if somebody were to give me money na I can cause the kind of damage that Imran Khan is causing inside Pakistan can you imagine the mindset France these are good people but we need to tap into this it's a country created in the name of religion so they think that that religion's | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-60 | name of religion so they think that that religion's protection is their job regardless of where the attack happens god-given country no other Islamic country says this Pakistan is hmm they don't a god-given country yeah but they know how to ex exploit the fissures in our country we don't know or we don't have the intent probably we don't have the intent and we ever see that that is a country that was you know a National Security State Security State bana what's my foreign and a general you know it's it's like a general passing orders that I want this done and it is done democracy is always messy it's messy exactly this is exactly what I said that democracy is you know we are stuck in systems right systems then you need several layers of you know approvals and grants and those kind of things it is not a one person who decides everything you know like when we were talking about narratives uh like you said that in your book you talk about the pashtuns who | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-61 | in your book you talk about the pashtuns who didn't write their narrative The Narrative was written by the Brits for them but the same thing happens like when balacode happened they got the narrative first because by the time our narrative came and of course we have our politicians who say video proof though yeah foreign but in our country it doesn't happen like that what do you think about it no it is you see because the unfortunate polarization even when matters of National Security and foreign policy are concerned has become deep-seated that people think that by scoring cheap points they are somehow damaging the government they don't realize they're actually damaging the country whatever is your political fight that's separate you must you know Parliament here other places are there but when it comes to issues of National Security the national interest must be must predominate that I think has got somewhere it's it's not happening to the extent that it should in Kashmir do you think that in in their so-called | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-62 | Kashmir do you think that in in their so-called Azad Kashmir uh the narrative is because about the media you know off camera we were talking about how even the media there uh is uh is not is not free see button there are very few people who speak kashmiri because the land that was taken over mostly it was not Kashmir so what essentially happens there is that all these people you know from mirpur and all that some people about speak kashmiri shows no they they speak pahadi they speak dogri they speak Punjabi 98 of the people in Pok identify themselves as ethnic punjabis it's basically they've turned the whole place Punjabi and today a lot of people there is dissonance there in the sense that there is there is frustration there because there is no they don't have an airport there in in Pok one uh there is nothing if you want to catch a flight you have to come out of Pok and then go into Islamabad whichever is the closest and | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-63 | then go into Islamabad whichever is the closest and then catch a flight so they're in a very bad State they don't have good hospitals I mean finally these things do matter growth matters they have no media also that's also controlled by um that is owned by the Pakistani army controlled by the core of signals so even their phones are tapped that means they don't pakistanis don't trust they might say Kashmir Road Pakistan but do they trust the kashmiris know they don't trust the kashmiris they do not trust because one day jkla woke up one fine morning I said Pakistan this is not good here they started killing of people and which is why when al-faran came and went none of them had Kashmir in their names these are all pan Islamic names that is what Pakistan seeks to control they have the same model even in Balochistan nationalism is the same script you know it it did not succeed in Bangladesh or east Pakistan will it succeed here because there also it was an identity but | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-64 | succeed here because there also it was an identity but there it was it was a very Fierce identity crisis is there similar kind of identity crisis with regard to the pashtuns with regard to the baloches uh is it strong enough for Pakistan to Splinter to break up you see they have used ban islamism especially did during the time of the Soviet Jihad all a lot of people came in from the Middle East from Saudi Arabia and wahhabi kind of influence but people forget that the pashtoons Afghanistan has been a very strong Center of moderate Sufi Islam you know herat for example is called the soil of the Sufi Saints ghazni was called aboard of the Sufi Saints the most famous Sufi Shrine in Lahore is actually who came from Ghazi so gradually the Sufi thing will have to reassert itself today it is not because it has been overcome by Barbies and in all kinds of things but once the Sufi culture reasserts itself which | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-65 | but once the Sufi culture reasserts itself which is what even you would be surprised used to visit the grave of his teacher every week and would also visit other Graves though we say he's a cutter and this kind of a thing but very strong Sufi influence so I think the Sufi influence has to come back and we'll come back will bring it no not not Imran concertly not no with black magic and all that that he's he's believed to do no no no other uh so that is not going to happen but you know before you end I want to make two points the polarization which Imran Khan has brought about in Pakistan today is absolutely frightening and unbelievable there was political polarization you know pppm of social polarization in fact Dawn quoted as a seven-year-old girl who came back from school and told the father that people who are supporters of PTI children and those are supporters of Nawaz pmln sit separately now we don't even sit together | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-66 | sit separately now we don't even sit together in a classroom in the classroom one second you know this political situation is what do you see at the moment there are 30 million people who don't have shelter because of the floods there's a Luby's Water Crisis in Pakistan they have an education emergency in what I wrote about in my first book economy is on a slippery slope population is growing at 2.4 percent three million people are entering the labor force every year year after year for the next 40 years there are no jobs these are the kind of issues that are eating away Pakistan and nobody is paying attention to these fundamental issues of the country they're all bothered about it where is Pakistan headed that they are on a precipice they could fall either way either Embrace democracy see that the success that it's had in countries around them and embrace that or else go into a state of chaos like Afghanistan has done what do you see uh gaurav what do you see | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-67 | do you see uh gaurav what do you see happening as we conclude it's the last question Pakistan is not a normal country Pakistan will continue to exist in some form or the other truncated balkanized or otherwise or otherwise but Pakistan will never be normal they'll keep on limping be this country will keep on being on ventilator from one year to the next to the next sometimes the Americans will give money now he went and he got some money from the Chinese and then he got some money from the Saudis and now he started this whole tamash about climate Justice and he's saying and what is this whole thing with the Saudis there is a difference just just my last statement and then I think that is Pakistan sitting on the water tanker drunk and telling the world's nuclear weapons and they've been doing it successfully they've been blackmailing the world and the world has been giving the money but then what I mean after seeing the rush I don't want to go into the Russia Ukraine crisis but | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-68 | want to go into the Russia Ukraine crisis but after seeing that you can actually call the bluff on the nuclear uh thing isn't it on the button no with Pakistan with regard to Pakistan all the time using this nuclear Button as a big thing that um and then there'll be destruction in the entire region or the subcontinent or or Beyond you know that is you know we can do this yeah I think that the Pakistan Army leadership which controls the actual button is responsible enough not to do going for this kind of nuclear brinkmanship I think so at the moment at least but the danger with the nuclear issue is that they don't believe in India's nuclear Doctrine we build it very clear that even if you have a tnw tactical nuclear weapon we will have massive retaliation you can't do it if we have a one kiloton nuclear weapon you will not bomb Lahore with the 30th you can't do it I think but four years exactly the frightening thing is that in their | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-69 | years exactly the frightening thing is that in their Doctrine when you meet people this is that is the dangerous thing not so much as you know they're threatening they want you know I teach I don't think so at the moment they're not is that irrational at the moment all right thank you so much for this conversation uh Mr diveshar thank you Gora for coming in and giving us uh two points of view which are almost similar I feel that after this conversation but of course uh your articulation is different and interesting and all the best to you in your endeavors uh gaurav you are now uh you know moved into the think tank space and you're doing very well in that thank you very much so all the best to you too and I look forward to uh having you back with your fifth book soon thank you thank you so much for having me thank you so you really enjoyed this conversation and wish you all the best in your new Venture thank you thank you so much thank you all right | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
e8ec24b64a1d-70 | thank you thank you so much thank you all right thank you for watching or listening into Ani podcast with Smitha prakash do like or subscribe on whichever Channel you listen to this or watch this namaste foreign [Music] | 1QSf8KsdTiY |
786c1332d0af-0 | let me tell you there's going to be no confusion about which side of the faction I'm on I am with other balance I thought crazy I will repeat this like 100 times over even if there are three people five people ten people we are going to be fighting this out I used to be writing columns way before I joined the Congress yeah I was a communication person many people tend to think that everything I did was after joining them always learn even from your opponents and what Mr Modi has done he's transformed what communication is visual communication is and that is something you you must give him full marks for patrolling for women is way higher statistics prove it uh worldwide it is a phenomenon where women are mostly trolled there's a history for everyone yeah either you Embrace that history many times people tell me that oh you are that turn code history it was not supposed to be that way but there was no reason for you to in hindsight do a suspension how does it feel you know they were having fun | GaZ3XdhjdzU |
786c1332d0af-1 | how does it feel you know they were having fun at my expense welcome to another edition of eni podcast with Smitha prakash today my guest is Priyanka chaturvedi she's a woman Member of Parliament nominated to the rajya Sabha from the shivsena party Priyanka chaturvedi was first in the congress party and due to one incident which uh which he spoken about in the podcast she left the party she was considered close to the powers that be but it she didn't hesitate once she decided to leave the party she went back to Mumbai and there she decided to join the shiv Cena a regional party now in the shiv Cena she's again close to the powers that be in Parliament her role has been pretty strong she picks up issues sometimes which are not even connected to uh to Mumbai or Maharashtra the party from where she belongs but she's very vociferous in her defense or in her view about gender equality on gender issues she speaks a lot she is also so she also has | GaZ3XdhjdzU |
786c1332d0af-2 | speaks a lot she is also so she also has a very strong view about hindutva about the BJP she's very strident in her in her criticism of whether it is Mr Modi or whether it is Mr amitsha but whatever she speaks on she speaks straight from her heart you'll see that even in her conversation now she gets trolled a lot but she takes on her trolls with a lot of Gusto and she doesn't give them any space when she takes them on so here's my conversation with Priyanka chaturvedi joining me in the podcast is my colleague payal Mehta Priyanka ji thank you very much for coming to Ani podcast with Smitha prakash and before I begin about all your politics and about everything to do with shiv Cena I'm going to start by asking you how do you cope with all that Supreme love that you get on social media no firstly I was surprised with that g that you added to my name you don't need to do that so yeah so all the | GaZ3XdhjdzU |
786c1332d0af-3 | don't need to do that so yeah so all the love that I get from social media I think it is just something you get used to you remember how we started you know how Twitter was a place I used to have a lot of fun but we've seen that transition happen to a point where you can't share any part of your personal life it's all about your work and yet you get trolled but I think I've learned to live with it now there's there's no other way but continue to do what you're doing and while I read all the comments but I have to ignore them but um dealing with it I think it was another transition for me I used to be very uh it used to be very surprising for me very sensitive about any criticism coming my way so for that also to change it took a little time there were times when I used to just think of deleting my Twitter handle then I've I used to wonder why should I be doing that I shouldn't these guys be learning how | GaZ3XdhjdzU |
786c1332d0af-4 | doing that I shouldn't these guys be learning how to talk to women but I think it's become so um I think such a way of life for some people to seek attention so I've started to ignore it but it wasn't like that initially for you right it's only after you move to politics yeah that uh it got really vicious uh with the uh with the trolling that came your way yes it was I I remember a phase where if I know you also one of the first movers to that platform we were amongst those who were there was a little village that one had and everybody chatted and uh I remember that you could have different political opinions and it didn't matter and it was almost like a Town Square you come you have fun you talk about your favorite food favorite music movies Etc and uh we saw a lot of barriers also coming down so political people who are at that point of time and I joined uh uh Twitter I wasn't really active in politics politics also happened | GaZ3XdhjdzU |
786c1332d0af-5 | really active in politics politics also happened after I joined Twitter after the entire Terror attacks and I was already on social media uh when the 2611 Terror attacks happened in Mumbai so I've seen the transition happen where it used to be a fun place to this so I think it's part of how you mold yourself I guess but is it disturbing because you know sometimes these comments are really really personal you know they call you or they call you Manus and I don't know what all they're called they've called me they've called me all kinds of names you know you you create a problem but I guess like I told somebody once again say essay tweets I'm happy for them if it makes their lives happier or they seem to be in a better space after trolling me good for you but you know okay that's a good way of dealing with with trolls right where you have to uh you have to understand how to deal with them but it does affect the mental health after | GaZ3XdhjdzU |
786c1332d0af-6 | with them but it does affect the mental health after all one is a human being you can't if you're constantly abused and your children are dragged your family is dragged I think that that hurts that that hit me quite a bit and many times it has hit me especially when it comes to my my children I think it's a very motherly Instinct as soon as it comes to your children you react in a certain way so I I decided very early on social media profiles that anyone who crosses the line you can continue to talk about me Etc but you can if you drag my children into this you drag my family who's not in political uh space of work you drag them then I won't spare you and I've gone to the cop so many times I think before I became a member of parliament they were very familiar with me who comes and she talks about complaints about it there was a point in time when they used to tell me why are you getting Disturbed it took me | GaZ3XdhjdzU |
786c1332d0af-7 | tell me why are you getting Disturbed it took me a lot of time to explain to them as well uh in Mumbai that Joe online so um with my kids I don't just tolerate I don't tolerate even now I'm very thin-skinned about my children but with me I you all I I sometimes feel either you can continue battling this out or fighting this out or learn to live with it accommodate this kind of trolling Behavior because I'm very certain that these very people would not come to my face and do things like this or say the kind of things they do oh no they don't they don't I mean I'm sure go ahead and have coffee some people telling me that you're not a good host because your guests don't drink their coffee and you keep drinking but you and that's that's true so um I I'm going to come back to you know the mental health of women who are on social media and coping with that I'm going to come back to it but it would be unfair | GaZ3XdhjdzU |
786c1332d0af-8 | to come back to it but it would be unfair if I if I continue to talk on this and not speak about your political Avatar uh and you know for our viewers or our listeners who are abroad uh you're one of those who uh one of those women politicians who does not come from a political family you don't have a Godfather you didn't have you didn't have a brother Mother sister brother anybody in politics who propelled you or you thought you know you've worked in the constituency of your family so hence you got into it so tell me um why did you get into politics and why the congress party so uh when the 26 11 Terror attacks happened politics was not part of my scenario or something that I thought I would do and like every average Indian citizen at that point in time they felt of Father where you are from Politics the better it is those who are handling it handle it I came from a family which believed in that okay we just we go once in | GaZ3XdhjdzU |
786c1332d0af-9 | believed in that okay we just we go once in five years and obviously so I came from a family like that 26 11 kind of changed my focus in life where uh I had just had a baby and I remember my husband who was traveling from uh Bangalore he was returning to Mumbai and I heard of the blast near the airport and I was quite shaken to the call I was a normal Moon biker working in a space Etc I thought we had to contribute to the society so that was one change the second was why the Congress at that point in time when I was I started my pavement schools and in terms of uh voting I come from a family which was very liberal in mindset which was we my parents moved from mathura to Mumbai and uh they felt that Mumbai has done so much and it's so inclusive and we got career opportunities there so they somehow connected it to the Congress and that we are all living in this space right from the Freedom Movement to now so | GaZ3XdhjdzU |
786c1332d0af-10 | this space right from the Freedom Movement to now so that was how my upbringing was in terms of my in-laws they were totally on the other side of the spectrum so that's another interesting story so Congress became a very natural choice for me and at that point in time when they were opening up the system SRI Rahul Gandhi had started this entire process of bringing in people from different spheres of work and they had approached me they said that you know you're doing some great work why don't you look at youth congress as a platform and that is how it I initiated my entire political career but I was very uh I would say I you know how you are apprehensive and you're also questioning their credibility that would they be able to look at as someone who's coming from a totally non-political background and make space for her you were also I remember the first meeting that you had with Rahul Gandhi uh I you know you tweeted on that and I I was I was like | GaZ3XdhjdzU |
786c1332d0af-11 | tweeted on that and I I was I was like she's such a fan girl because you literally had it was like a fan girl moment for you when you met him for the first time and I know that there were many who were you know oh your name is Priyanka his sister's name is Priyanka and then you tweeted a picture uh you know of I don't think selfies were there at that time there was a picture picture that you tweeted over and you literally had you know glazed eyes you were like yeah because you know um I'm sure even if I meet Omar Abdullah I'll have that glazed eyes even now because those of you know those are people who've grown up watching on television and making new stories talking about politics and I came from a totally non-political background never would have thought that I'll be in this space of work where I will be engaging with them and I'll be talking to them I think social media in that manner did a fantastic job and also | GaZ3XdhjdzU |
786c1332d0af-12 | in that manner did a fantastic job and also there was this conversations that you know lots of us used to have without realizing these are it's a public platform everybody is so personal views there was actually you know payal there was a a list which was put out and everybody did this like in college there was something called a chick chart where good looking girls names were put on that it was horrendous now when you look back of it you say oh my God what a sexist thing it is but on Twitter there was something called Nayan souk oh my god with the Clooney weather and the Clooney weather and we women would automatically say politicians pleasing to the eye in which Rahul Gandhi used to be there so everybody used to put in out there without thinking that yeah this can come back to haunt us at some point of time and those kind of conversations I think you didn't realize probably that you're going to get into publicly this is like you know I used to talk about | GaZ3XdhjdzU |
786c1332d0af-13 | this is like you know I used to talk about someone's dressing sense some public Personality yeah you should talk about their sarees it used to be so casual it will just still do that you still watch what people wear oh of course I always do that but she's careful but then I I WhatsApp it to a particular set of yeah but I don't tweet it because you get into trouble but uh the point is that there was a time when I used to comment on people's clothes and I say how unfashionable or like what is the combination even it was just so normal is and I remember Samantha used to tweet this is oh this is so Clooney weather yeah till somebody told me midlife crisis that she still got this crush on a person who's in his 50s and so is she so it was like horrendous imagine you know we used to discuss and many people people who are from the old Twitter gang they will remember this I have since College days I had this huge | GaZ3XdhjdzU |
786c1332d0af-14 | this I have since College days I had this huge crush on Arjun rampal and every time we used to discuss Arjun rampal everybody would tag me Priyanka you know Arjun is being discussed yeah it used to be such a fun place but we've seen the transition happening when did when you joined the Congress did people in the congress party or did the media cell tell you turn this down like change your avatar not at all no that that is I think one thing that I'd appreciate is that they were like be who you are do what you want and uh I don't believe that no no it was it was it just came very consciously to me that you know now that I I am I have been nominated as a media panelist of a party and uh so this it definitely comes with certain responsibilities and I kind of uh toned down myself because um everything I was putting out there was being linked to Congress in some way so if I say oh I love red they would | GaZ3XdhjdzU |
786c1332d0af-15 | so if I say oh I love red they would say oh how can you love red when congress party loves green or whatever know so I was like everything would come back to the congress party so I thought it made no sense for me to even if for example if I was to share an English song or a Hindi song and like oh who are you linking this song to who is this song for do you think that it happens a lot for women spokespersons of political parties more than the male spokesperson like would was Mr surge attacked in the same manner like you were because he was hitting your team right no no but but um I'm certainly not I'm very sure it did not work like that and uh I don't think um men take it too hot as much as women do uh but uh definitely trolling for women is way higher statistics prove it uh uh worldwide it's it is a phenomenon where women are mostly trolled see you were with uh Rahul Gandhi when | GaZ3XdhjdzU |
786c1332d0af-16 | see you were with uh Rahul Gandhi when uh when he was he was a president he was of the party and you were in the media cell you were very uh you know working closely active and uh what is the difference that and then you know you had you had your issues with the media team at that time there was divya's pandana who was heading the team and and then you know it was quite obvious to all of us from the outside that there seems to be some something not working right you know and 2019 elections um they lost and the entire media team went their separate ways everything collapsed so tell us something about it it's over right yeah it is it is uh uh so yes I was pretty active on social media I was pretty and I think I did a good job for them I mean I would say so considering that uh um I still get calls from a lot of people from the Congress from you know far off places rural constances or maybe because I've worked in | GaZ3XdhjdzU |
786c1332d0af-17 | places rural constances or maybe because I've worked in madhya Pradesh I've worked in Karnataka so I do get calls from them but yes there were certain challenges where uh I felt that uh you know you can always Overlook them because it's part of the process no organization can please everybody so but yeah uh you're quite right it was pretty awkward at times uh in terms of working alongside people who I would say were a bit toxic so tell me you left um Congress also because of something which happened which was very toxic uh it was like it it just seemed that it was boiling and boiling and that was the watershed moment that definitely was the watershed moment for me because um Smith if you you've known me and you've seen my entire trajectory I I've not been someone I'm comfortable in my space I'm not insecure about people I know what I do I bring the best to the table and my best abilities and best efforts and I don't think anybody would raise a finger | GaZ3XdhjdzU |
786c1332d0af-18 | and I don't think anybody would raise a finger to that particular point of thing up the issue but I did feel that uh certain things are not just going right uh not that I was seeking a ticket which is told about many times many people make that as an excuse then they say oh priyankan is settle Kia with another party before she chose to jump opportunistic there is nothing of that sort I was pretty happy in my space but there were moments where I felt that things could have been handled better but this particular thing like you said was the Tipping Point for me uh Tipping Point because I have stood very strongly about uh women's rights and women's issues and when you as a political party are talking about women and how women have to be heard Etc then you have to prioritize that you cannot uh you know think I have two thoughts about it for Outsiders or insiders right what you speak outside should be applicable within the party what happened was in uh in in | GaZ3XdhjdzU |
786c1332d0af-19 | the party what happened was in uh in in a particular month uh some people were suspended but they were brought back during the election time and uh that I thought was the alpark thing that if you take a stance now for me and if I am important important or if I'm relevant forget important relevant relevant who you will listen to me did you speak with uh Priyanka Gandhi or Sonia Gandhi look I'm the reason I asked their names is because uh if such an incident had happened where a woman politician would have got roughed up and uh things in say a samajwadi party or in a party where women are not in positions of power then I can well understand that you know hierarchy wise you don't get your view but this is a party where ladki who learned there's a Priyanka Gandhi and there's a Sonia Gandhi who's been at the helm for like almost 30 years now so did you get a hearing from either of them actually to be very honest um | GaZ3XdhjdzU |