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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
is a continuum. And I think that it doesn't have to be smart with foresight like us, but
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:08:15.920
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
it doesn't have to be completely blind either. I think there may be aspects of it. And in
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:08:20.880
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
particular, this kind of multi scale competency might give it a little bit of look ahead maybe
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:08:25.720
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
or a little bit of problem solving sort of baked in. But that's going to be completely
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:08:30.760
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
different in different systems. I do think it's general. I don't think it's just on Earth.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I think it's a very fundamental thing.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:08:41.640
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
And it does seem to have a kind of direction that it's taking us that's somehow perhaps
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:08:44.040
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
is defined by the environment itself. It feels like we're headed towards something. Like,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:08:50.120
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
we're playing out a script that was just like a single cell defines the entire organism.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:08:57.360
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
It feels like from the origin of Earth itself, it's playing out a kind of script. You can't
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
really go any other way.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I mean, so this is very controversial, and I don't know the answer. But people have argued
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
that this is called, you know, sort of rewinding the tape of life, right? And some people have
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
argued, I think, I think Conway Morris, maybe has argued that it is that there's a deep
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
attractor, for example, to human to the human kind of structure and that and that if you
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:09:28.440
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
were to rewind it again, you'd basically get more or less the same thing. And then other
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
people have argued that, no, it's incredibly sensitive to frozen accidents. And then once
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
certain stochastic decisions are made downstream, everything is going to be different. I don't
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:09:41.920
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
know. I don't know. You know, we're very bad at predicting attractors in the space of complex
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:09:46.200
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
systems, generally speaking, right? We don't know. So maybe, so maybe evolution on Earth
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
has these deep attractors that no matter what has happened, it pretty much would likely
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:09:56.880
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
to end up there or maybe not. I don't know.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
What's a really difficult idea to imagine that if you ran Earth a million times, 500,000
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
times you would get Hitler? Like, yeah, we don't like to think like that. We think like,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:10:10.880
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
because at least maybe in America, you'd like to think that individual decisions can change
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
the world. And if individual decisions could change the world, then surely any perturbation
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
could result in a totally different trajectory. But maybe there's a, in this competency hierarchy,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
it's a self correcting system. There's just ultimately, there's a bunch of chaos that
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:10:38.560
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
ultimately is leading towards something like a super intelligent, artificial intelligence
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:10:43.320
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
system that answers 42. I mean, there might be a kind of imperative for life that it's
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:10:47.200
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
headed to. And we're too focused on our day to day life of getting coffee and snacks and
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:10:56.800
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
having sex and getting a promotion at work, not to see the big imperative of life on Earth
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
that is headed towards something.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Yeah, maybe, maybe. It's difficult. I think one of the things that's important about Chimerica
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
bioengineering technologies, all of those things are that we have to start developing
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
a better science of predicting the cognitive goals of composite systems. So we're just
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:11:29.520
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
not very good at it, right? We don't know if I create a composite system, and this could
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
be Internet of Things or swarm robotics or a cellular swarm or whatever. What is the
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
emergent intelligence of this thing? First of all, what level is it going to be at? And
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
if it has goal directed capacity, what are the goals going to be? Like, we are just not
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:11:51.640
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
very good at predicting that yet. And I think that it's an existential level need for us
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:11:56.240
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
to be able to because we're building these things all the time, right? We're building
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:12:06.420
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
both physical structures like swarm robotics, and we're building social financial structures
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:12:10.520
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and so on, with very little ability to predict what sort of autonomous goals that system
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
is going to have, of which we are now cogs. And so learning to predict and control those
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
things is going to be critical. So in fact, if you're right and there is some kind of
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:12:26.780
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
attractor to evolution, it would be nice to know what that is and then to make a rational
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
decision of whether we're going to go along or we're going to pop out of it or try to
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:12:36.680
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
pop out of it because there's no guarantee. I mean, that's the other kind of important
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:12:39.800
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
thing. A lot of people, I get a lot of complaints from people who email me and say, you know,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:12:44.120
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
what you're doing, it isn't natural. And I'll say, look, natural, that'd be nice if somebody
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:12:49.760
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
was making sure that natural was matched up to our values, but no one's doing that. Evolution
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
optimizes for biomass. That's it. Nobody's optimizing. It's not optimizing for your happiness.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I don't think necessarily it's optimizing for intelligence or fairness or any of that
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
stuff.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I'm going to find that person that emailed you, beat them up, take their place, steal
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:13:12.600
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
everything they own and say, no, this is natural.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
This is natural. Yeah, exactly. Because it comes from an old worldview where you could
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
assume that whatever is natural, that that's probably for the best. And I think we're long
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:13:28.200
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
out of that garden of Eden kind of view. So I think we can do better. I think we, and
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:13:32.040
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
we have to, right? Natural just isn't great for a lot of life forms.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:13:37.000
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
What are some cool synthetic organisms that you think about, you dream about? When you
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
think about embodied mind, what do you imagine? What do you hope to build?
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Yeah, on a practical level, what I really hope to do is to gain enough of an understanding
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:13:51.400
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
of the embodied intelligence of the organs and tissues such that we can achieve a radically
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:13:57.700
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
different regenerative medicine so that we can say, basically, and I think about it as,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
you know, in terms of like, okay, can you, what's the goal kind of end game for this
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
whole thing? To me, the end game is something that you would call an anatomical compiler.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
So the idea is you would sit down in front of the computer and you would draw the body
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
or the organ that you wanted. Not molecular details, but like, yeah, this is what I want.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I want a six legged, you know, frog with a propeller on top, or I want a heart that looks
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
like this, or I want a leg that looks like this. And what it would do if we knew what
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:14:36.200
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
we were doing is put out, convert that anatomical description into a set of stimuli that would
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
have to be given to cells to convince them to build exactly that thing, right? I probably
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:14:47.000
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
won't live to see it, but I think it's achievable. And I think with that, if we can have that,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:14:51.320
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
then that is basically the solution to all of medicine except for infectious disease.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:14:56.840
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
So birth defects, right? Traumatic injury, cancer, aging, degenerative disease. If we
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
knew how to tell cells what to build, all of those things go away. So those things go
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
away. And the positive feedback spiral of economic costs, where all of the advances
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
are increasingly more heroic and expensive interventions of a sinking ship when you're
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:15:18.520
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
like 90 and so on, right? All of that goes away because basically, instead of trying
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
to fix you up as you degrade, you progressively regenerate, you apply the regenerative medicine
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
early before things degrade. So I think that that'll have massive economic impacts over
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
what we're trying to do now, which is not at all sustainable. And that's what I hope.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:15:38.920
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I hope that we get it. So to me, yes, the xenobots will be doing useful things, cleaning
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
up the environment, cleaning out your joints and all that kind of stuff. But more important
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
than that, I think we can use these synthetic systems to try to develop a science of detecting
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:15:55.480
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and manipulating the goals of collective intelligences of cells specifically for regenerative medicine.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
And then sort of beyond that, if we think further beyond that, what I hope is that kind
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:16:10.840
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
of like what you said, all of this drives a reconsideration of how we formulate ethical
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:16:15.840
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
norms because this old school, so in the olden days, what you could do is if you were confronted
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
with something, you could tap on it, right? And if you heard a metallic clanging sound,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
you'd say, ah, fine, right? So you could conclude it was made in a factory. I can take it apart.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:16:33.200
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I can do whatever, right? If you did that and you got sort of a squishy kind of warm
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:16:37.160
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
sensation, you'd say, ah, I need to be more or less nice to it and whatever. That's not
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
going to be feasible. It was never really feasible, but it was good enough because we
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:16:46.080
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
didn't have any, we didn't know any better. That needs to go. And I think that by breaking
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:16:49.360
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
down those artificial barriers, someday we can try to build a system of ethical norms
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
that does not rely on these completely contingent facts of our earthly history, but on something
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
much, much deeper that really takes agency and the capacity to suffer and all that takes
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