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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
that seriously.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:17:15.520
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
The capacity to suffer and the deep questions I would ask of a system is can I eat it and
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:17:16.520
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
can I have sex with it? Which is the two fundamental tests of, again, the human condition. So I
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:17:21.560
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
can basically do what Dali does that's in the physical space. So print out like a 3D
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:17:30.560
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
print Pepe the Frog with a propeller head, propeller hat is the dream.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:17:39.480
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Well yes and no. I mean, I want to get away from the 3D printing thing because that will
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:17:46.320
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
be available for some things much earlier. I mean, we can already do bladders and ears
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:17:50.840
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and things like that because it's micro level control, right? When you 3D print, you are
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:17:55.560
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
in charge of where every cell goes. And for some things that, you know, for, for like
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:17:59.920
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
this thing, they had that I think 20 years ago or maybe earlier than that, you could
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:18:02.960
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
do that.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
So yeah, I would like to emphasize the Dali part where you provide a few words and it
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:18:07.040
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
generates a painting. So here you say, I want a frog with these features and then it would
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:18:11.480
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
go direct a complex biological system to construct something like that.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:18:19.920
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Yeah. The main magic would be, I mean, I think from, from looking at Dali and so on, it looks
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:18:25.000
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
like the first part is kind of solved now where you go from, from the words to the image,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:18:30.040
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
like that seems more or less solved. The next step is really hard. This is what keeps things
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:18:34.360
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
like CRISPR and genomic editing and so on. That's what limits all the impacts for regenerative
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:18:39.920
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
medicine because going back to, okay, this is the knee joint that I want, or this is
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:18:46.880
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
the eye that I want. Now, what genes do I edit to make that happen, right? Going back
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:18:51.320
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
in that direction is really hard. So instead of that, it's going to be, okay, I understand
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:18:56.000
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
how to motivate cells to build particular structures. Can I rewrite the memory of what
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:18:59.840
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
they think they're supposed to be building such that then I can, you know, take my hands
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
off the wheel and let them, let them do their thing.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
So some of that is experiment, but some of that may be AI can help too. Just like with
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:19:09.960
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
protein folding, this is exactly the problem that protein folding in the most simple medium
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:19:13.960
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
tried and has solved with alpha fold, which is how does the sequence of letters result
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
in this three dimensional shape? And you have to, I guess it didn't solve it because you
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
have to, if you say, I want this shape, how do I then have a sequence of letters? Yeah.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
The reverse engineering step is really tricky.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
It is. I think, I think we're, we're, and we're doing some of this now is, is to use
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:19:45.920
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
AI to try and build actionable models of the intelligence of the cellular collectives.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
So try to help us and help us gain models that, that, that, and, and we've had some
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
success in this. So we, we did something like this for, for, you know, for repairing birth
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
defects of the brain in frog. We've done some of this for normalizing melanoma where you
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:20:08.480
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
can really start to use AI to make models of how would I impact this thing if I wanted
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
to given all the complexities, right. And, and, and given all the, the, the, the controls
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
that it, that it knows how to do.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
So when you say regenerative medicine, so we talked about creating biological organisms,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:20:27.520
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
but if you regrow a hand, that information is already there, right? The biological system
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:20:34.060
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
has that information. So how does regenerative medicine work today? How do you hope it works?
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
What's the hope there?
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Yeah.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Yeah. How do you make it happen?
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Well today there's a set of popular approaches. So, so one is 3d printing. So the idea is
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:20:52.480
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I'm going to make a scaffold of the thing that I want. I'm going to seed it with cells
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and then, and then there it is, right? So kind of direct, and then that works for certain
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
things. You can make a bladder that way or an ear, something like that. The other, the
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
other ideas is some sort of stem cell transplant. These are the ideas. If we, if we put in stem
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:21:08.920
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
cells with appropriate factors, we can get them to generate certain kinds of neurons
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:21:14.300
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
for certain diseases and so on. All of those things are good for relatively simple structures,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:21:17.920
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
but when you want an eye or a hand or something else, I think in this maybe an unpopular opinion,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I think the only hope we have in any reasonable kind of timeframe is to understand how the
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
thing was motivated to get made in the first place. So what is it that, that made those
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
cells in the, in the beginning, create a particular arm with a particular set of sizes and shapes
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and number of fingers and all that. And why is it that a salamander can keep losing theirs
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and keep regrowing theirs and a planarian can do the same even more? So to me, uh, kind
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
of ultimate regenerate medicine was when you can tell the cells to build whatever it is
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
you need them to build. Right. And so the, so that we can all be like planaria basically,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
do you have to start at the very beginning or can you, um, do a shortcut? Cause we're
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
going to hand, you already got the whole organism. Yeah. So here's what we've done, right? So,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:22:13.680
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
we've, we've more or less solved that in frogs. So frogs, unlike salamanders do not regenerate
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
their legs as adults. And so, so, uh, we've shown that with a very, um, uh, kind of simple
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
intervention. So what we do is there's two things you need to, uh, you need to have a
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:22:31.800
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
signal that tells the cells what to do, and then you need some way of delivering it. And
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:22:36.100
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
so this is work together with, um, with David Kaplan and I should do a, um, a disclosure
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
here. We have a company called morphosuticals and spin off where we're trying to, uh, to
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
address, uh, uh, regenerate, you know, limb regeneration. So we've solved it in the frog
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and we're now in trials and mice. So now we're going to, we're in mammals now. It's, I can't
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:22:52.320
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
say anything about how it's going, but the frog thing is solved. So what you do is, um,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
after you have a little frog, Lou Skywalker with every growing hand. Yeah, basically,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:22:59.720
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
basically. Yeah. Yeah. So what you do is we did, we did with legs instead of forearms.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
And what you do is, um, after amputation, normally they, they don't regenerate. You
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:23:07.840
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
put on a wearable bioreactor. So it's this thing that, um, that goes on and, uh, Dave
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Kaplan does lab makes these things and inside it's a, it's a very controlled environment.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
It is a silk gel that carries, uh, some drugs, for example, ion channel drugs. And what you're
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:23:21.300
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
doing is you're saying to the cells, you should regrow what normally goes here. So, uh, that
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
whole thing is on for 24 hours and you take it off and you don't touch the leg. Again,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
this is really important because what we're not looking for is a set of micromanagement,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
uh, you know, printing or controlling the cells we want to trigger. We want to, we want
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
to interact with it early on and then not touch it again because, because we don't know
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
how to make a frog leg, but the frog knows how to make a frog leg. So 24 hours, 18 months
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
of leg growth after that, without us touching it again. And after 18 months, you get a pretty
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
good leg that kind of shows this proof of concept that early on when the cells right
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
after injury, when they're first making a decision about what they're going to do, you
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
can, you can impact them. And once they've decided to make a leg, they don't need you
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
after that. They can do their own thing. So that's an approach that we're now taking.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
What about cancer suppression? That's something you mentioned earlier. How can all of these
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:24:14.040
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
ideas help with cancer suppression?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:24:18.480
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
So let's, let's go back to the beginning and ask what, what, what, what cancer is. So I
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
think, um, you know, asking why there's cancer is the wrong question. I think the right question
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
is why is there ever anything but cancer? So, so in the normal state, you have a bunch
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
of cells that are all cooperating towards a large scale goal. If that process of cooperation
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
breaks down and you've got a cell that is isolated from that electrical network that
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
lets you remember what the big goal is, you revert back to your unicellular lifestyle
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
as far as, now think about that border between self and world, right? Normally when all these
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
cells are connected by gap junctions into an electrical network, they are all one self,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
right? That meaning that, um, their goals, they have these large tissue level goals and
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:24:56.360
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
so on. As soon as a cell is disconnected from that, the self is tiny, right? And so at that
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
point, and so, so people, a lot of people model cancer cell cells as being more selfish
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